A podcast delivering wine perspectives ex-chateau. Insights, analysis, and perspectives on news and trends in the wine industry beyond winemaking, such as marketing, finance, and consumer trends. From noted wine blogger Robert Vernick (@wineterroir) and leading wine business consultant and author of Luxury Wine Marketing Peter Yeung (@winebizguy), this podcast navigates the business of wine with unique perspectives and insights.
Unpacking the cost of growing grapes w/ Natalie Collins, CAWG
Episode 197
Wednesday, July 23, 2025 • Duration 01:00:31
In an oversupplied market with rising costs, being a winegrape grower is probably the hardest it has ever been. Natalie Collins, President of the California Association of Winegrape Growers, breaks down the cost of winegrape growing in CA, the challenges in the marketplace, and the policy dynamics in the US, CA, and EU that continue to exacerbate the challenges for CA’s winegrape growers.
Detailed Show Notes:
CA Winegrape Growers - based in Sacramento, lobbies at the state and federal level
CA has ~5,900 winegrape growers and 550k planted acres
Key cost drivers of winegrape growing
#1 labor, ~45-50% of budget (30-45% CA interior, 45-65% CA coast); doubled in the last 10 years, driven by:
High min wage ($16.50; most pay $18-30/hr) → increases take entire pay curve up, not just bottom
2016 labor law change reducing hours before overtime pay → reduced farmworker take-home pay (OR provides an overtime tax credit to employers)
Cal State SLO study on lettuce growers - compliance costs ~$1,600/acre (1,366% increase since 2006, 637% since 2022)
#3 land - CA has some of the highest land prices in the US
#4 crop protection/fertility tools
Farming costs ~$4k/acre Central Valley, $6-8k/acre Paso Robles, $8-10k/acre Sonoma, ~$10-17k/acre Napa
Grape pricing not rising w/ input costs - Central Valley ~$500-600/ton, Central Coast ~$1-2k/ton
Bulk wine from Chile is cheap, and the US can’t compete on price
The annual CA Winegrape Crush Report shows pricing for all varieties by district
No US federal support vs EU
EU subsidizes at every level (growing, marketing, production)
>e2B/year in direct and local support, enabling cheap wine production
Crisis distillation - buy surplus wine to convert to alcohol (e.g., hand sanitizer)
Vineyard removal and vineyard planting subsidies
Aggressive marketing support (France investing $5B to support wine exports to the US w/ new tariffs)
US wines can have up to 25% foreign wine blended in and be labeled as US wine
2023-2024 - CA left ~300k tons/year on the vines; 2025 ~50% of vineyards don’t have a contract for the 2025 harvest; industry calling for another 50k acres to be removed (60k removed since 2022); all regions pulling out or mothballing/minimally farming vines
Tariff impacts (May 2025)- input costs increase, but can be positive for CA winegrape growers
2019 tariffs saw domestic wine increase its share by 10% vs EU wines
Canada is actively removing US wines from shelves in retaliation; the US exports 10% of its wines, 40% to Canada
Deportations - creating fear, people are afraid to leave their homes for fear of their families getting separated
Seasonal labor is not big, 90% vineyards are mechanically harvested; H2A temporary workers (mostly from Mexico, all-in cost ~$30/hr, often more productive, cannot be paid more than domestic workers)
Economic impact of CA wine - 422k CA employees / 1.1M across US, $73B CA economic impact / $175B/year US
All agriculture is struggling in CA, replacement crops for grapes not easy (some almonds, pistachios, cherries); costs ~$30-70k/acre to plant a vineyard
Duty Drawback - a federal tax refund program meant to encourage exports
If a winery exports wines, then imports them back, it gets 99% of import fees (including the Federal Excise Tax of $1.07/gallon) refunded
If importing ~$3/gallon bulk wine, can save ~30%
Mostly used by the top 5 wine companies
2024 - 38M gallons bulk imported (70M in 2022) vs ~70M gallons left on the vine in 2023
Replicating the Farmer’s Eye w/ Kia Behnia & Mason Earles, Scout
Episode 196
Friday, July 11, 2025 • Duration 54:21
Having met at the UC Davis Wine Executive Program, Kia Behnia, CEO, and Mason Earles, CTO, founded Scout to replicate the best sensor in the vineyard, “the farmer’s eye.” Leveraging off-the-shelf hardware, Scout uses AI to process images taken from a tractor to automate vineyard mapping, vine counting, yield forecasting, virus identification, and more. From managing vineyard assets to implementing precision agriculture to improve quality, Scout is harnessing the power of AI to optimize vineyard management.
Detailed Show Notes:
Mason’s background - UC Davis Professor, Apple, AI & agriculture
Kia’s background for Scout - owns the Neotempo wine brand, worked at Splunk, the “data for everything” company
The official company name is Agricultural Scout, dba Scout, the website is agscout.ai, so it can be called any of those names
Founded in 2022, initially more hardware-based, but pivoted to an intelligence company using off-the-shelf hardware
The goal is to “replicate the farmer’s eye” with an AI-based solution using cameras, tractors, and Scout cloud and mobile app (which can be used offline); the brain is centered around a phone
US only today (~50-100 clients, 300 blocks, 2M vines, processed 56M photos), going international in 2026
4 main use cases currently:
Automate vine count, inventory, and mapping of vines - 4x faster than people could do
Estimate crop performance - both vigor and fruit
Yield forecasting - can use every step in the growing season to forecast yield with historical performance and weather forecasts
Health performance and vine mapping - leveraging AI for virus detection
3 types of clients
Estate wineries
Vineyard management companies (“VMC”)
A Medical Record for Each Vine w/ Shawn DeMartino, Sentinel
Episode 187
Wednesday, March 5, 2025 • Duration 01:02:04
After struggling with tracking vineyard data firsthand, Shawn DeMartino, CEO and Founder of Sentinel, decided to create a solution with his partner. Enabling vine by vine mapping and data collection that could stand the test of time enables vineyard managers to increase the lifespan of a vineyard, manage viruses, and effectively create a “medical record” for each individual vine.
Detailed Show Notes:
Shawn’s background - winemaking, viticulture, now general management
Sentinel was a Covid project that became real, software that collects individual vine information over time
“Patient medical system of record for vines”
The solution includes a mobile app, desktop platform, and high-accuracy GPS (receivers that clip onto phones)
The vineyard mgmt team populates data, can walk up the vines and record
Work with/ Sentinel to put in bulk metadata (e.g., block info, varietal)
A client mapped 100 acres in 1 week
Work order function
E.g., irrigation can be recorded
Roguing, planting, and grafted statuses can auto-update when the work order is completed
Core benefits
Extend the life of the vineyards
Virus/disease management, see the program more clearly, identify asymptomatic vines in hot spots (case study: ~10% of vines asymptomatic)
Optimize pick areas (through mapping flavor profiles)
Pricing
Montepulciano vs. Montepulciano w/ Max de Zarobe, Avignonesi
Episode 97
Wednesday, April 27, 2022 • Duration 48:45
Sharing a name causes confusion. Trademark and appellation laws are there to protect them. However, it can be harder to resolve when this confusion is within the same country. That’s the challenge Montepulciano (both the town and and the wine Vino Nobile di Montepulciano) faces against its bigger neighbor Montepulciano d’Abruzzo. Max de Zarobe of Avignonesi describes the history, challenges, and steps taken to clarify the names and the wines.
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Detailed Show Notes:
Max’s background - in shipping, ended up in wine by mistake
Avignonesi background
Originally a noble family from Montepulciano
Based in the SE part of Tuscany, close to Umbria
Best known for Vin Santo
Top 5 producers in the region (~175ha planted; ~100/~1,300ha of Vino Nobile)
Vino Nobile di Montepulciano (“VN”)
From the town of Montepulciano, Tuscany
Historically controlled by Florence
Min 70-80% Sangiovese, trend for all local varietals
Three years to produce
~10M bottles annually
~3x the price of MA
Named “Nobile” due to nobility consuming the wine in history - only two places in Italy were known for noble wine vs. wine for food, Barolo and Montepulciano
Once famed as the best wine in Tuscany - it was imported by Thomas Jefferson to the US (~$250/year)
Montepulciano d’Abruzzo (“MA”)
From the province of Umbria (East Italy)
It uses the Montepulciano grape variety
One year to produce
~120M bottles annually
Other naming confusions resolved by the EU: Champagne/Cava, Tokaji/Tocai, Prosecco/Glera. Internationall, cross border conflicts get good support from their governments
The low and no alcohol wine space is growing rapidly. Enough so that a company specializing in spinning cone technology to reduce alcohol, ConeTech, changed its name to BevZero. Debbie Novograd, CEO, and Kayla Winter, Director of Product Services & Winemaking, discuss the technology, the challenges of producing good no alcohol wine, and the market for low and no alcohol wines.
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Detailed Show Notes:
Alcohol reduction technologies
Reverse Osmosis - pass wine through filters, removes water and alcohol, can only bring down abv by a few % per pass, requires multiple passes to get to 0% (more taken out of the wine)
Spinning Cones - creates thin film vacuum distillation with heat added (37C) to extract alcohol w/o cooking wine, only spends a few seconds in still
BevZero history
Founded in 1991 as ConeTech as a tool in the winemaker’s toolbelt to adjust alcohol to hit a “sweet spot”
Before 2018, >14% abv wines had a higher excise tax, alcohol reduction used to bring wines below 14%
Can pull off different substances with different molecular weights (more than alcohol if desired)
Small units (1,000L/hour) start at $1.5M
GoLo tech starts at $500-650k
Definitions
Low alcohol wine: 5.5-10% abv
No alcohol wine: 0-0.5% abv
Uses of technology by geography
Europe - 99% for 0% abv products
USA - until 2 years ago - 90% for alc adjustment, 10% for low/no alc
WineTok w/ Amanda McCrossin aka SommVivant
Episode 95
Wednesday, April 13, 2022 • Duration 46:20
With the rapidly changing social media landscape, TikTok has started (as of late 2021, early 2022) to arrive as a place for wine lovers. Wine influencer Amanda McCrossin (somm_vivant) has gained momentum in this “wild west” and now has over 100k followers. She shares her journey, best practices, and what makes TikTok special.
Detailed Show Notes:
Former sommelier and wine director at Press Napa Valley, full background on Episode 12
2 of Amanda’s videos converted well for wineries, 1st proof of ROI
Duhig got 1,100 signups for their mailing list from a video
Massican got $3,000 in sales and 70 list signups from 1 video
Recent shifts that allowed Amanda to excel on TikTok
Understanding TikTok is short form content vs dance videos (not social media)
Time limit increases (15 sec -> 1min (summer 2021); 1 min -> 3 min (Fall 2021)) -> enabled ability to dig in deeper (can technically do 10 min videos)
TikTok vs other platforms
Can’t DM w/ people, need to be following them
Conversations happen in comments
Ability to go live
Ability to reply w/ video in comments (“Duets” - do side by side w/ another’s content, Amanda did one w/ port tongs that has 2M views)
IG reels (only 30 sec - 1 min) don’t have as much educational content, trends usually 3 weeks later than Tiktok
IG feels older, more copycat, behind on trends
Demographics - female leading
Amanda’s - 75% female, 25% male
Boxing for the Environment w/ Jason Haas, Tablas Creek Vineyard
Episode 94
Wednesday, April 6, 2022 • Duration 34:31
Constantly looking to improve its environmental impact, Jason Haas, Second Generation Proprietor of Tablas Creek Vineyard in Paso Robles, recently released a trial of 3L bag-in-box wines at $95/box. Though this is 15% lower than the normal bottle price, it still represented ~3x the highest boxed wine in the market. However, the potential to lower the total carbon footprint of the wine by 40% led to trialing and a terrific reaction to the 300 box trial, which sold out in 4 hours. Jason explains the rationale, strategy, and process of going bag-in-box and for other alternative packaging.
If you love the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon.
Detailed Show Notes:
The rationale for trying bag-in-box
Did a self-assessment of the winery’s carbon footprint - on the Tablas Creek blog
For the average CA winery, >50% of the carbon footprint is from the glass bottle (including transportation), as glass requires high temperatures to mold and has a heavy impact on shipping and transportation
Tablas Creek moved to a lightweight bottle in ~2010, which saves ~10% of CO2 footprint; heavier bottles are ~10% more
3L bag-in-box reduces packaging carbon footprint by ~84% and ~40% of the total carbon footprint
A wine blogger commented on Jason’s Facebook that Tablas Creek is well-positioned to create change w/ bag-in-box
Previously topped out at ~$35 for 3L, or ~$7.50/bottle
Tablas Creek bag-in-box trial
Bottled 100 cases of Patelin de Tablas Rose, ~300 3L boxes
Got ~60k views on a blog post on boxes in 2 days, lots of positive comments
Crafting a Brand for Millennials w/ Ben Matthews, Terratorium Wines
Episode 93
Wednesday, March 30, 2022 • Duration 51:11
Combining a passion for wine with a background in marketing to Millennials from Proctor and Gamble, Ben Matthews launched Terratorium Wines. Building a brand for Millennials has led to creating target personas, packaging elements that lead to more transparency, and pricing to create a fine wine entry point. Hear about how Terratorium is creating brand alignment with its Millennial customers.
Want straightforward, more “natural,” less manufactured products - concern for clean ingredients for products that are “in you,” “on you,” or “around you”
Want alignment on brand values, it’s more than just economics
Like transparency for the manufacturing process
Not as price-sensitive as people think they are
Want to support brands you’re proud to tell your friends about, which increases the word of mouth velocity, e.g., Tom’s Shoe’s “Buy 1, Give 1”
Need the right price point (there’s a ceiling for Millennials) - ~$25-low $40s for a single vineyard, craft wine; the market entry point for fine wine
Millennials are now 50% of parents, which is influencing buying practices, sustainability becoming more important
Developed personas for their target consumers - “who is my who?”
Came up with fictitious characters - “Jake” and “Meaghan”
Average older millennial professionals
Creates a brand lens for wine style, packaging, varietal selection, etc...
Terratorium varietals
Try to bring in not quite mainstream varieties
Millennials like learning about things
Regenerative, the Only Sustainable Farming w/ Jason Haas, Tablas Creek Vineyard
Episode 92
Wednesday, March 23, 2022 • Duration 44:29
Taking over from his father, 2nd generation proprietor of Tablas Creek Vineyard, Jason Haas left a career in technology to dig into the soils of Paso Robles. Spearheading the conversion to Biodynamic farming and now the certification of Regenerative Organic farming, Tablas Creek has pioneered not just the Rhone movement in California, but of Regenerative farming, which looks to take into account the farm’s impact on the soil, community, and region. Jason believes that Regenerative farming is the only truly sustainable way to farm. Listen in to Tablas Creek’s progression from organic to biodynamic to regenerative.
All Rhone varieties, including rarer varietal wines
Own 270 acres, 125 planted to vines
Regenerative farming - similar to biodynamics, but thinks more about the externalities of agriculture
Has commitments to less use of shared resources (e.g. - water, power)
Has an additional focus on the big picture (e.g. - climate change with a metric to increase the carbon content of the soil)
Biodynamics is process-based whereas regenerative farming is results-based
Requires a series of audits - soil health audit, animal welfare certification (that they are treated humanely), farmworker audit (paying fair wages, increasing their skills -> led to weekly roundtable meetings)
Standing Out via AR and Celebrities w/ Ming Alterman, 19 Crimes
Episode 91
Wednesday, March 16, 2022 • Duration 45:12
Seemingly overnight, 19 Crimes, a division of Treasury Wine Estates, has become a Top 15 brand in the US and has a global impact. Re-imagining what a wine brand could be, 19 Crimes has had many innovations, but found lasting success with augmented reality and celebrity partnerships with Snoop Dogg and Martha Stewart. Ming Alterman, Brand Director for 19 Crimes, gives us the history, best practices, and keys to success for the brand and AR.
If you love the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon.
Detailed Show Notes:
19 Crimes Overview
A Top 15 brand in the US according to Nielsen IRI, ~500k cases sold at $11.50/bottle average
A virtual brand, no winery, no visible winemaker - disrupts what a wine brand can be - “The non-wine drinkers' wine”
Americans often pick up a bottle because of the look and feel - developed the packaging and story to engage the consumer
1st black matte bottle, collectible corks with crimes on them, and augmented reality (AR
Still need a wine that delivers for the price point and consumer first -> the wine quality creates repeat purchase
Average consumer - 35-55 years old, wants to be a part of something and can relate to the story of the 19 Crimes
Snoop Dogg's partnership has brought in 200k new consumers into wine from beer and spirits
Augmented Reality
App has over 5M downloads
Started w/ both AR and virtual reality (VR) to tell the story of the brand
In 2017 - people didn’t want to put on the headset (VR) in-store but were okay downloading the app and AR took off
Created a 3d puppet of the person, animated it, and recorded lines
AR came a few years after the brand launch, was supposed to be a sales tool, but morphed into a consumer thing
Real estate investors or owners to track vineyards
Benefits include:
$400-1,200 savings/acre
Productivity gains through managing more acres with fewer people, identifying low-performing vines, and the program tells farmers where to sample
Remote monitoring of faraway vineyards
Early season yield forecasting
Disease management - virus can cause $170k/acre damage over 3-5 years, costs $40/PCR test, the goal is to keep virus <15% not to lose the whole block, has a 7,000 photo database on vine disease
Bench Vineyards discovered 1 acre of missing vines out of 24 acres and filled them in
Pricing is a subscription model, $150-180/acre per scan
Volume discounts >50 acres
Neighborhood and AVA discounts
Starter - 2 scan package (for inventory and virus)
Professional - 6 scan package
Typical customer starts w/ 2 and upgrades to 6
Monarch promotion, customers get 1 free scan
Up front hardware costs ~$3,000
New product in beta in July 2025 - ChatGPT Scout for vineyards
Marketing mostly through word of mouth, industry trade shows, and webinars have been effective, as has partnership with Monarch (already tech enthusiasts)
Barriers to purchase are often due to farming budgets built around labor
Naming conflict a domestic dispute - VN did not get gov’t support as it is small (Montepulciano has ~18k people/~15k voters; Abruzzo is ~2.2M people/~2M voters)
VN is challenged by the squeeze between Brunello (confusion w/ Montalcino, leads the American market due to investment of Banfi) and MA (shared name)
VN promotion challenges & actions
No one spoke English (even the President and GM of Consorzio do not speak English); Avignonesi has organized local English classes for children
Consorzio tried to get support from politicians but unsuccessful
As of last year, put “Vino di Toscana” on the label - limited impact as many don’t know Abruzzo is a province
Want to highlight “Nobile” vs. full VN name
Issue: can’t use an adjective to name a wine (EU law), “Nobile” is both an adjective and a noun; thus the full VN name was adopted
Alliance Vinum, a band of 6 producers, uses “Nobile” by printing it on the “back” label, which is functionally the front label
Focus on the positive impact on the soil, community, and region
Does not have cow horns or the cycles of the moon like biodynamics
Regenerative is an alternative to biodynamics that is more focused on science vs mystical processes
Benefits of the various farming practices
Conventional - cheapest in the short term
Organic - in the long run, not more expensive than conventional. Organic certification in wine has been mostly for lower-end wines in the $10-15/bottle
Biodynamics -Initially believed it would increase the lifetime of vines and gain in quality from older vines. Discovered that lots grown biodynamically were the best lots right away in blind tastings.
Regenerative farming - Less about the grapes vs biodynamics, more in externalities
Regenerative farming pilot program
6 Regenerative Organic certified wineries at the moment
Got invited to the pilot w/o knowing what “regenerative” was or meant
Can use the “Regenerative Organic” seal on their wines (vs just for the grapes)
Costs of farming
Biodynamic/regenerative - have more hands-on labor vs organic or conventional farming
Less chemical purchases
Cost on a $/ton basis for farming has not increased significantly vs organic (~$3-5,000/ton)
Has not experienced yield reductions, the yield has been more dependent on water (e.g. - 2-2.5 tons per acre in a dry / frost year vs up to 3.5 tons per acre for a wetter year)
Has been able to avoid significant labor issues by maintaining its own vineyard crew (10 FTEs, started w/ own crew in 1996), paying a living wage and good labor conditions have led to good recruitment and retention of crew workers
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