Wrestling Payments is a podcast for professionals working at banks, credit unions, and FinTechs who are responsible for managing ACH and payment operations. In each episode, members of NEACH guide conversations to help professionals examine the challenges of modernizing payment operations. Ultimately, the stories uncovered through guest interviews and solo episodes will highlight industry trends and identify how organizations can build their payment operations for the future.
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Episode Summary In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Joe Casali sits down with Steve Wasserman of Vments and Larry Pruss of Strategic Resource Management for an urgent conversation about the seismic shifts happening in payments right now. Stablecoins and tokenized deposits aren't coming—they're here, and they're already pulling deposits away from traditional institutions. Steve breaks down the critical differences between these technologies and why full-reserve models are creating both new opportunities and existential threats for banks and credit unions. Larry shares eye-opening data on deposit outflows and explains why institutions can't afford to wait while new players capture customer relationships. The conversation tackles practical challenges head-on, from building acceptance networks to preventing costly user mistakes, and explores how QR codes and programmable money are about to transform the payment experience. This episode is a wake-up call: the time to develop your digital asset strategy isn't someday—it's now.
Guests-at-a-Glance Steve Wasserman Founder and CEO, Vments A leading voice in digital currencies and payments infrastructure, helping financial institutions navigate the strategic complexities of stablecoins and emerging payment technologies.LinkedIn
Larry Pruss Senior Vice President, Digital Assets Advisory Services, SRM (Strategic Resource Management) A strategic advisor guiding banks and credit unions through the digital assets landscape with practical, regulatory-ready approaches to emerging payment trends.LinkedIn
Key Insights
The Deposit Battle Is Already Underway Financial institutions are losing deposits to stablecoins and digital asset platforms at an alarming rate—in some cases, 3% per month. This isn't a future threat; it's happening now. Stablecoins operate on full-reserve models with public blockchain transparency, offering speed and efficiency that attract businesses and consumers alike. Traditional institutions that viewed competition as coming only from other banks are now facing deposit outflows to fintechs and digital platforms that operate with fewer intermediaries. The competitive landscape has fundamentally shifted, and institutions must develop new strategies to retain customers and stay relevant in this digital-first payments world.
Strategy First, Adoption Second The pressure to launch stablecoin products or tokenized deposit services is intense, but rushing in without a clear strategy leads to wasted resources and customer confusion. The winning approach starts with understanding user needs, building acceptance networks, and establishing the right partnerships before launching anything. Institutions need to map out how payments will be accepted, integrate with wallet providers, and ensure smooth conversion between digital assets and traditional money. This methodical planning manages risk, supports compliance, and prevents customers from defecting to better-prepared competitors. In this rapidly evolving space, strategic groundwork separates sustainable growth from expensive mistakes.
QR Codes and Programmable Money Are the Future Interface The next generation of payments is being built on secure QR standards and programmable money. Technologies like X9 QR codes let users pay across multiple rails—ACH, instant payments, cards, or wallets—with a single scan. This streamlines the customer experience while enabling programmable features like automated refunds and conditional payments that eliminate manual intervention.
Locked In or Moving Forward: Rethinking Core Renewals
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali sits down with Rich Carty from Remedy to dig into the realities of core technology contracts in banking and payments. Rich shares how financial institutions weigh tough choices when locked into long-term vendor agreements and why early planning is critical. He explains how most banks only revisit core contracts every few years, often finding themselves committed to outdated solutions for longer than they expect.
Rich points out that new technology and artificial intelligence are top of mind for many leaders. He sees demand for AI solutions rising fast, but notes that organizations remain cautious, balancing the urge to innovate with the need to avoid early missteps. Rich encourages institutions to seek advice, gather input from all departments, and focus on due diligence before making changes.
Throughout the conversation, Rich uses real stories to show the value of reviewing contracts and staying proactive. He highlights how the right approach can free up resources, improve vendor relationships, and help organizations adapt as the payments industry evolves.
GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE Name: Rich Carty What he does: Vice President, Business Development Company: Remedy Noteworthy: Rich helps banks and credit unions review, negotiate, and optimize technology vendor contracts, with a focus on core systems, renewals, and technology transitions. Where to find him:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-carty-24918918
KEY INSIGHTS
Start Contract Planning Three Years Ahead
Long-term vendor contracts shape how banks operate, often locking in core systems for up to a decade. Early planning is the best way to avoid getting stuck with outdated technology or unfavorable terms.
FinTech Waves Ahead: Navigating Growth with Risk in Mind
Financial institutions face a critical challenge: modernizing payment operations through FinTech partnerships without compromising compliance. On Wrestling Payments, host Elyssa Morgan explores practical strategies for balancing innovation with regulatory requirements.
Mark Forbis (former Jack Henry CTO) and Stephen Coburn (Avalo Labs CEO) reveal what works when banks and FinTechs collaborate. Mark explains why most institutions approach partnerships wrong, while Stephen discusses cultural mismatches that doom relationships. Both have witnessed spectacular failures and quiet successes.
The conversation reveals hidden complexities of third-party risk management and why traditional due diligence overlooks critical warning signs. From fourth-party vendor oversight to recent industry shake-ups, this episode provides frameworks payment leaders won't find in regulatory guidance.
Guests:
Mark Forbis - Former CTO, Avalo Labs | 32 years at Jack Henry, multiple bank boards LinkedIn
Stephen Coburn - CEO, Avalo Labs | Built compliance-focused treasury platform LinkedIn
Mary Mumper-Morrison - Director of Education, NEACH | FinTech veteran specializing in risk management LinkedIn
Key Insights:
Cultural alignment determines success more than technical capabilities
Fourth-party risks create hidden vulnerabilities requiring expanded due diligence
Early compliance integration prevents costly partnership failures
Contingency planning for FinTech failure requires clear data ownership protocols
FinTech in Open Water – Seize the Opportunity While Maintaining Control
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Host Elyssa Morgan talks with Dr. Angela Murphy from Pidgin about the shift from competition to collaboration between financial institutions and fintechs. They explore why partnership is a critical strategy for shaping the future of financial services and meeting rapidly evolving customer expectations.
Angela addresses the common fear among institutions of losing control. She argues that fintechs like PayPal and Venmo have already changed the landscape. Instead of being a threat, the right technology partners can help institutions provide better digital experiences and augment the customer relationships they have already built.
This conversation provides a playbook for moving forward. Angela shares how institutions can analyze their payment strategies, find opportunities in the B2B space, and leverage technology to reduce risk. For any institution looking to innovate, this episode offers a clear path to seizing opportunity while maintaining control.
GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE
💡 Name: Angela Murphy 💡 What she does: Vice President of Marketing and Solutions 💡 Company: Pidgin 💡 Noteworthy: Known as the "Payments Elsa," with deep expertise in payments innovation and AI.
Financial Institutions Must Embrace Fintech Partnership to Survive
Wrestling Payments host Elyssa Morgan interviews Dr. Angela Murphy (Pidgin's VP Marketing) about why banks and credit unions must shift from competing with fintechs to collaborating with them.
Introducing Mascoma Technologies - From Legacy Cores to Agile Banking Platforms
Episode Summary In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Joe Casali from NEACH sits down with Raphael Reznek and Ingrid Hebert from Mascoma Bank and Mascoma Technologies to explore an incredible success story: how a community bank built its own fintech platform from scratch. After years of vendor disappointments and legacy system limitations, Mascoma took the bold step of building in-house—and the results are remarkable. Raphael shares how their custom platform now runs multiple cores in parallel while providing real-time access to customer data, transforming operations from manual letter-sorting to automated efficiency. Ingrid reveals the cultural transformation that made it possible, including "Pivot Tuesdays" and Agile methodologies that kept stakeholders engaged. This episode proves that community banks don't have to wait for big vendors to innovate—they can lead the charge themselves.
Guests-at-a-Glance
Raphael Reznek CTO, Mascoma Bank and President, Mascoma Technologies A visionary leader who spearheaded the revolutionary in-house platform build, merging compliance with cutting-edge infrastructure to give community banks unprecedented control. LinkedIn
Ingrid Hebert Director of Service Delivery and Implementation, Mascoma Technologies The operational mastermind behind Mascoma's cultural transformation, driving internal platform builds that perfectly align technology with banking operations.LinkedIn
Key Insights
Building Your Own Path When Vendors Fall Short Mascoma's journey proves that sometimes the best solution is the one you create yourself. After years of vendor promises and legacy limitations, they built a data hub that integrates old and new systems without the risks of total replacement. Their platform now processes transactions that once required manual sorting (imagine a semi-truck full of letters!) and provides real-time visibility into data quality issues. The breakthrough insight: you don't have to choose between legacy stability and modern capabilities—you can have both.
Behind the Network: Treasury Software's Role in Payment Processing
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali from NEACH speaks with Glenn Fromer of Treasury Software about solving the critical "last mile" disconnect between small businesses and the ACH network.
Glenn shares how his journey from accountant at fast food chains to payment software developer revealed significant inefficiencies in payment operations. His company evolved from addressing bank reconciliation issues to creating ACH file solutions that enable small businesses to participate in the national payment system alongside larger organizations.
The conversation explores why businesses often attempt to build internal payment solutions despite the challenges of ongoing maintenance. Glenn explains that while anyone can write code, the real value comes from managing constant regulatory changes and technical updates – comparing DIY payment solutions to growing your own cotton to make a t-shirt instead of buying one for $10. This practical insight highlights why specialized payment software often provides better long-term value for financial institutions and their business clients.
The Last Mile Matters Most in Payment Networks The final connection point between payment systems and end users represents the most critical and challenging component of the entire network. While large institutions focus on core infrastructure, this "last mile" determines whether small businesses can effectively participate in modern payment systems. Like electrical grids that require transformers and distribution lines to reach individual homes. Without these connection tools, the payment ecosystem would exclude smaller players. For financial institutions, recognizing this connectivity challenge helps better support clients transitioning from legacy payment methods to electronic systems, ultimately democratizing access to payment networks.
Nacha Smackdown Series - Part 3 Technical Foul Throwdown
In this third installment of the NACHA "Smackdown" Rules Violations in the Ring series, Wrestling Payments host Joseph Casali dives into NACHA's enforcement process, examining real rules violation cases and their consequences. The episode unpacks three enforcement cases involving micro-entries to invalid accounts, entries to invalid accounts, and failure to perform annual ACH compliance audits.
Joe walks listeners through each case, detailing how financial institutions responded to violations and the resulting penalties. The podcast highlights how even seemingly minor infractions can lead to significant fines. "These are the easy things," Joe explains when discussing a $5,000 fine for missing an annual audit requirement.
The episode serves as a practical guide to understanding NACHA's enforcement process, demonstrating how financial institutions can learn from others' mistakes to improve their own compliance practices and avoid costly penalties.
KEY INSIGHTS
Compliance Mistakes Cost More Than Just Money NACHA enforcement isn't just about penalties—it reveals operational vulnerabilities that impact multiple stakeholders. When financial institutions fail to maintain proper controls, they face monetary fines, reputational damage, increased scrutiny, and potential customer impacts. The actual cost extends beyond the immediate financial penalty, including operational adjustments, staff time, and preventative system investments. Organizations should view compliance as a strategic business function rather than a checkbox exercise, especially when scaling operations.
Fraud Prevention Requires Evolution, Not Just Detection Effective fraud management demands a dynamic approach that evolves alongside emerging threats. When patterns of suspicious activity emerge, institutions must rapidly implement countermeasures and be willing to adjust their business models when necessary. The most successful organizations build layered defense systems that can adapt to changing fraud tactics. This requires cross-departmental collaboration, regular testing, and the courage to disable vulnerable services when controls prove insufficient—even if it temporarily impacts revenue streams.
Nacha Smackdown Series - Part 2 Unauthorized Cage Match
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali continues his three-part NACHA SmackDown series, taking listeners inside the high-stakes world of ACH rules violations. Through compelling real-world cases, Joseph reveals the consequences when financial institutions fail to follow proper authorization procedures.
The episode examines Steward Bank's repeated failures to provide valid authorization proof, resulting in escalating fines from warnings to $7,500. Joseph also explores O'Leary Bank's improper SEC code use, demonstrating critical compliance errors that payment professionals must avoid.
"These are really places to learn how the rules apply," Joseph explains. "Look what happened here. This went wrong, and they got fined for it. It's a really good way to learn how the rules work."
While emphasizing that NACHA's enforcement process doesn't recover funds for affected parties, Joseph provides valuable insights for operations managers and directors responsible for ACH compliance.
KEY INSIGHTS: The Enforcement Process Protects the Network, Not Individual Cases NACHA's enforcement process exists to uphold system integrity, not recover funds for affected parties. The process identifies rule-breakers and imposes fines to discourage future violations, but consumers must look elsewhere for recovery. Understanding this distinction is crucial for banking professionals managing payment operations—rules enforcement serves as a deterrent while arbitration offers a path for financial recovery. This separation of powers helps maintain ACH Network quality while giving institutions multiple ways to address unauthorized transactions.
Authorization Type Must Match the SEC CodeSEC codes must align with the authorization type obtained from customers—a critical compliance point for operations managers. Converting a check into a WEB debit constitutes an automatic rules violation because the authorization types differ fundamentally. Payment professionals must understand that each SEC code requires its distinct authorization format. This knowledge helps institutions avoid costly violations while ensuring proper payment processing across different channels.
Nacha Smackdown Series - Part 1 The Reversal Rumble
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Joseph Casali launches a three-part "SmackDown Rules Violations in the Ring" series, examining ACH rule violations through wrestling metaphors. He analyzes two critical NACHA case studies that payment professionals should understand to avoid costly compliance mistakes.
The first case involves Glenn Transportation's unauthorized $50,000 reversal attempt against KJN Storage, earning them a warning letter as a first-time offender. The second, more severe case examines a complex arrangement between Macklan Development, Workforce Assist, and Processing for You Inc., where improper payroll reversals led to a substantial $100,000 fine.
Joseph details how the third-party payment processor initiated unauthorized reversals when their customer failed to fund payroll credits, causing consumer accounts to be debited multiple times. This "nested third-party" arrangement lacked proper oversight and controls, resulting in widespread harm to employees, businesses, and financial institutions.
"Just like in wrestling, when you try to reverse the outcome after the match is over, you'll find yourself facing the regulatory referee," warns Casali. "In the NACHA ring, proper reversals require proper cause, not just a desire to take back what you've already given."
Key Insights
Prevention Beats Correction in Payment Operations The root of most improper reversals isn't misunderstanding rules—it's inadequate front-end controls. Rather than focusing on when reversals are permitted, payment professionals should strengthen transaction validation before payments enter the network. Organizations eliminate the scenarios that tempt improper reversals by implementing proper authorization checks, sufficient funding verification, and receiver confirmation processes up front.
Prevention not only avoids NACHA enforcement but creates more efficient operations overall. Smart payment managers know that building guardrails before transactions occur costs far less than attempting corrections after funds have moved.
Building Your Payment Story: Are You the Hero or the Guide?
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali draws surprising parallels between professional wrestling and the evolution of payment systems. After watching WrestleMania 41, he experienced an "aha moment" recognizing that successful payment transformations follow the same narrative structure as compelling wrestling storylines.
The episode explores Donald Miller's StoryBrand framework, breaking down how every story, including payment innovations like check conversion to ACH and the digital transformation journey, features a character who faces challenges and needs guidance to achieve success. From the National Automated Clearinghouse Association (NACHA)'s early rules for check conversion to today's AI and crypto developments, each payment evolution represents its own hero's journey.
Listeners are challenged to identify their role in the payment industry narrative: Are you the hero navigating change, or the guide helping others transform? The host suggests that recognizing your place in the story can help financial professionals better navigate the continuous evolution of payment systems and build meaningful payment stories.
KEY INSIGHTS
Every Industry Evolution Follows a Classic Story Structure The payment industry's evolution, from paper checks to digital transformation, follows the same narrative arc as classic storytelling. Just as Donald Miller's StoryBrand framework outlines, payment innovations begin with a character (organization) facing a problem (inefficient processes), meeting a guide (industry experts or associations like NACHA), receiving a plan (new technology or methodology), and taking action that leads to success or avoids failure. Viewing payment evolution through this lens gives professionals a framework to anticipate challenges and recognize their role in the larger industry story.
Identifying Whether You're a Hero or Guide Changes Your StrategyYour role in the payment industry story—hero navigating challenges or guide helping others succeed—fundamentally changes your approach to innovation and problem-solving. Heroes face obstacles directly, implement solutions, and undergo transformation. Guides offer wisdom and experience to help others navigate challenges. Many payment professionals mistakenly position themselves as heroes when they could create more impact as guides. Being a guide—like Yoda in Star Wars—often creates more lasting impact than heroic action, especially for those with extensive industry experience who can mentor others through digital transformation or regulatory changes.
Financial institutions that want options—like switching vendors or just negotiating a better deal—need to start the process two to three years before their current contract expires. This timeline accounts for vendor schedules, internal reviews, and the complexity of core system transitions.
By moving early, organizations protect themselves from last-minute decisions and keep leverage at the table. The approach also gives teams time to gather input across departments and align technology with business goals. In a fast-moving payments landscape, a proactive timeline is the difference between staying ahead and falling behind.
Due Diligence Uncovers Savings and Prevents Regret
A thorough review of technology contracts can reveal hidden costs and new opportunities. Even long-standing vendor relationships deserve a second look, as loyalty doesn’t always mean the best price or terms.
With due diligence, organizations spot gaps, compare options, and often negotiate better deals. This process can free up resources for growth, support new projects, or make room for future upgrades. Relying on familiarity or letting contracts auto-renew leads to missed savings and limits flexibility.
By treating every renewal or transition as a strategic decision, financial institutions protect their budgets and set themselves up for smarter, more agile operations.
Smart institutions prepare for scenarios most never consider, including partner failures and customer relationship transfers.
Key Takeaways:
Partnership Over Competition Customer expectations for seamless digital experiences now extend to financial services. Institutions can no longer provide everything in-house. Strategic fintech partnerships enable rapid deployment of innovative solutions while maintaining competitive edge.
Control Through Collaboration Many institutions fear losing customer relationships to fintechs, but services like PayPal and Venmo already changed the landscape. Smart partnerships strengthen relationships by adding necessary digital tools under trusted institutional brands, keeping institutions as central financial advisors.
B2B Payment Opportunity While consumer payments get attention, B2B payments remain inefficient and outdated. This creates massive revenue opportunities for institutions willing to partner with specialized fintechs to solve commercial client pain points.
Practical Innovation Steps
Analyze existing payment flows and costs
Target top 20% of check users driving 80% of volume for digital transition
Leverage AI partnerships to automate processes and combat fraud
Angela, known as "Payments Elsa," provides a clear roadmap for institutions to innovate while maintaining control, emphasizing that collaboration isn't surrender—it's strategic survival in rapidly evolving financial services.
C
"Pivot Tuesdays" and the Power of Agile Banking Mascoma transformed not just their technology but their entire culture. By embedding compliance, risk, and operations teams into every development stage, they created powerful feedback loops that led to faster pivots and stronger buy-in. When malformed data started filling their new exception queue, operations wasn't frustrated—they were thrilled to finally see problems in real-time. The lesson: successful banking innovation comes from building systems with the people who use them, not just for them.
A Scalable Model for Community Banking's Future What makes Mascoma's approach truly exciting is its scalability. Their platform already supports other institutions, especially during mergers, allowing banks to consolidate systems without starting over. Instead of "staples and gum" integration, banks can plug into a shared data hub that runs multiple cores and unifies digital tools. This isn't just internal efficiency—it's reshaping what's possible for community banking.
Software Integration Creates Both Opportunities and Challenges Modern payment operations increasingly depend on seamless software integration between accounting platforms and banking systems. The dramatic difference between QuickBooks Desktop and QuickBooks Online exemplifies how rapidly changing software landscapes can disrupt payment workflows. As software platforms evolve, businesses face migration challenges that ripple through their entire payment infrastructure. Financial institutions serving business clients need to understand these integration dependencies when advising on payment operations.
Customer-Centric Product Development Drives Payment Innovation Successful payment solutions evolve by addressing actual user pain points rather than chasing competitor features. Treasury Software's journey from bank reconciliation tools to ACH file creation demonstrates how listening to customer requests creates more relevant products than following industry trends. This customer-focused approach explains why payment solution providers often develop in unexpected sequences, addressing specific problems as clients encounter them rather than following predetermined roadmaps. For financial institutions, this insight emphasizes the importance of gathering direct client feedback about payment challenges rather than assuming standard solution paths. By identifying the specific payment operation obstacles their clients face, banks can
Regulatory Compliance Cannot Rely on Good Intentions The financial services industry operates within a complex web of overlapping regulatory frameworks that require deliberate, proactive management. Intending to comply or being unaware of requirements does not protect from enforcement actions. Every organization must establish systematic approaches to tracking, implementing, and verifying compliance activities on an ongoing basis. Leadership must prioritize creating a culture where regulatory obligations receive continual attention rather than periodic focus during examinations or audits.
Siloed Compliance Creates Dangerous Blind Spots Financial institutions face requirements from multiple regulatory bodies with overlapping but distinct compliance demands. Treating these requirements as separate, unrelated obligations creates dangerous gaps where violations can occur despite passing specific examinations. Effective compliance programs require an integrated view of all regulatory obligations to identify interconnections and prevent requirements from falling through organizational cracks. Organizations must comprehensively map regulatory responsibilities with clear ownership and accountability across all departments that touch payment operations.
Progressive Enforcement Drives Compliance NACHA's enforcement panel uses progressively increasing penalties to encourage compliance, starting with warnings before moving to monetary fines. For payment professionals, this highlights the importance of addressing issues immediately rather than ignoring them.
The panel's willingness to impose recurring monthly fines for persistent violators underscores NACHA's commitment to maintaining network integrity.
Proper Documentation Prevents Costly Violations Under NACHA rules, the obligation to provide valid proof of authorization within 10 banking days is non-negotiable. Financial institutions must maintain organized, accessible records and ensure staff understand how to respond properly to authorization requests.
Both cases highlight the importance of having knowledgeable staff (ideally AAP-certified) who can identify proper authorization formats and requirements. Operations managers should implement procedures ensuring authorization documentation matches receiver information exactly, as mismatches invalidate the proof and trigger violations.
Clear Accountability Is Essential in Third-Party Relationships When payment services involve multiple providers, responsibility becomes dangerously diluted. The "nested third-party" arrangement in the payroll case demonstrates how quickly problems cascade when accountability chains break down. Financial institutions must establish explicit contractual requirements defining precisely who bears responsibility for compliance at each processing stage.
Regular audits, performance monitoring, and transparent communication channels between all parties are essential. The most successful payment operations leaders create relationship maps that establish clear lines of authority and ensure visibility across the entire transaction lifecycle.
Consumer Impact Elevates Regulatory Response What regulators might treat as minor procedural issues in B2B contexts become major enforcement priorities when consumers feel the impact. Payment operations teams need separate, enhanced control frameworks for transactions touching consumer accounts. Payroll processing, direct debits, and other consumer activities demand heightened verification steps, stronger reconciliation processes, and faster exception handling.
The immediate financial hardship consumers experience from improper transactions—and the resulting reputational damage—justifies investing in these stronger safeguards. Smart operations leaders recognize this regulatory reality and allocate resources accordingly.
Success Stories in Payments Are Never-Ending Narratives Payment innovation represents a continuous narrative where each success leads to the next challenge, unlike traditional stories with definitive endings. Innovations like check digitization and ACH systems solved immediate problems but created new storylines and challenges. Completing one transformation doesn't provide a permanent "happy ending" but instead opens the next chapter. This perpetual evolution requires viewing projects as episodes in an ongoing industry saga. Embracing this never-ending narrative perspective helps maintain adaptability, avoid complacency after successes, and stay prepared for constant changes driven by technology, regulations, or market demands.
Recognizing When You're the Guide, Not the Hero [00:15:40] "If you look around the room and you don't see the person who's doing this, you are that person. Maybe you're a guide. Maybe you're a guide in the story. And that's not a negative. You're Yoda. How can you get better than Yoda? You are Paul Heyman in wrestling, you are the guide. You're the advisor, the wise man."
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