Hosted by Greg Ashman and Caiti Wade, ‘When Will They Learn?’ explores what’s trending in the world of education. Each episode, Greg and Caiti engage with podcasts, articles and opinions shaping education discourse, examining these through a science of learning lens. They discuss not just what’s popular, but what’s supported by the evidence.
In this episode, Greg and Caiti respond to recent discussions on The Balance podcast between Dr Catlin Tucker and Dr Pete Liljedahl about ‘Building Thinking Classrooms’. They examine how key claims do or don’t align with evidence from cognitive science. They then unpack a recent opinion piece by John Cole for the Australian Association for Research in Education’s blog, asking who gets to decide what counts as ‘best practice’ in teaching.
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Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
Episode #2 Thinking Critically about Critical Thinking
Season 1 · Episode 2
Thursday, February 19, 2026 • Duration 55:49
In this episode, Greg and Caiti take on the idea of ‘critical thinking’ in schools. They respond to a recent EducationHQ article on teaching critical thinking and unpack the assumptions behind calls to prioritise it in classrooms. They explore what ‘critical thinking’ actually means, whether it can be taught as a general skill, and what the evidence from cognitive science suggests. They then turn to a discussion paper published by the Sydney Social Sciences and Humanities Advanced Research Centre (SSSHARC) at the University of Sydney, examining broader critiques of ‘evidence-based practice’, where education research is argued to come from, and whether schooling and education are truly positioned in opposition to one another.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
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Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #3 Finally, AI!
Season 1 · Episode 3
Thursday, March 5, 2026 • Duration 54:15
In this episode, Greg and Caiti finally tackle the topic of AI in education, responding to a blog post published by BERA about using AI to mark student homework. They explore how teachers might use AI in practice and what its growing role could mean for our education system.
Next, they discuss an episode of the podcast Let's Talk Teaching, unpacking what differentiation actually means, how it is often interpreted in schools, and the potential risks when it’s implemented poorly.
Finally, they turn to the Australian context, discussing the news that universities have offered places in initial teacher education programs to around 500 students with an ATAR below 50, and what this might mean for the profession.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #4 A Solemn Communiqué
Season 1 · Episode 4
Thursday, March 19, 2026 • Duration 57:28
In this episode, Greg and Caiti unpack key ideas from the recent researchED Ballarat conference, reflecting on some of the takeaways from sessions they attended, including those of the two keynote speakers, David Didau and Bronwyn Ryrie-Jones. They discuss Didau's ‘Two rules for great session (and how to apply them)’, unpacking what these offer in managing the complexities of real classrooms. They then turn to Bron Ryrie-Jones’ keynote, ‘Opportunities to respond (OTR): Pure gold for engagement’, highlighting why these are central to responsive teaching. The conversation then shifts to Dr Ben Jensen’s work with Learning First, focusing on the role of curriculum in driving school improvement. Finally, Greg and Caiti respond to a recent communiqué from AARE, drawing connections to Dr Jenny Donovan’s session and examining broader tensions around evidence, research, and what evidence-informed practice really means.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
Substack –
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #5 Knowledge-Rich Curriculum
Thursday, April 2, 2026 • Duration 54:41
In this episode, Greg and Caiti dive into some of the biggest conversations currently shaping education, unpacking what the research says, and what it’s not saying. In this episode, they explore the role of knowledge in reading comprehension, positioning a knowledge-rich curricula as central to teaching comprehension. The conversation then turns to “transliteracies” and the teaching of poetry, examining what sits beneath these ideas and what they might mean for classroom practice.
Finally, they talk about research in mathematics education, discussing whether or not the methodology used in some of the most influential research in this space actually proves what it set out to - or anything at all.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #6 Facing the Manosphere
Season 1 · Episode 6
Thursday, April 16, 2026 • Duration 50:27
In this episode, Greg and Caiti catch up in sunny Brisbane to cast some light on some of the more uncomfortable conversations happening in schools right now. They begin by unpacking conversations around teacher humiliation as a form of entertainment - from dunk tanks to pie throwing - and question what sits beneath these. They talk about coercion, humiliation and the origins of these practices. What starts as “a bit of fun” quickly raises deeper questions about the lines we’re willing to blur in the name of ‘being a good sport’.
The conversation then shifts to the manosphere and its growing influence on young boys. In this section, Greg and Caiti discuss an article by Adam Voigt that talks about the role of schools in supporting boys in a world influenced by the misogynistic manosphere. They talk about potential reasons the manosphere has gained popularity, the role of schools in this and touch on the idea of restorative practice and consequences.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #7 The Unified Bodymind
Season -3 · Episode 7
Thursday, April 30, 2026 • Duration 01:00:42
In a funny episode complete with robotic pigeons and disturbing AI-generated images (see below), Greg and Caiti look at some of the more popular conversations in the education world right now. Starting off with a discussion around gamification and broader technology use in the classroom, they consider the role of schools and the impacts of trying to appeal to student interests in a contrived way in the classroom.
They then switch to a research theme for the remainder of the episode, starting off with a discussion about Professor John Hattie’s research, in light of recent allegations about plagiarism in his work. The conversation centres on the research methodology used and flaws within this. Finally, they draw on a presentation that contrasts the ‘Science of Learning’ with the ‘sciences of learning’: what they mean for ‘fun’ in the classroom, teacher professional judgment and education research in general.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #8 The Autonomy Debate
Season 1 · Episode 8
Thursday, May 14, 2026 • Duration 53:41
In this episode, Greg and Caiti discuss recent research into mobile phone bans in schools, exploring whether they’re actually effective and why schools may choose to implement them in the first place. They also unpack debates around teacher autonomy, low-variance teaching and standardised curriculum resources, questioning whether shared approaches are truly a threat to professionalism or a way to improve consistency and reduce workload. Finally, they explore critical thinking in the Australian Curriculum and the relationship between knowledge, thinking and evidence-informed practice.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #10 All Ashman's Fault
Season 1 · Episode 10
Thursday, June 11, 2026 • Duration 58:21
In this episode of When Will They Learn?, Greg and Caiti tackle a stack of education policy debates - beginning with the most pressing and meta question of all: is it, in fact, all Ashman’s fault?
From claims that evidence-informed approaches have reduced teaching to “death by PowerPoint” and scripting, to the shift from the reading wars to the emerging learning wars, the conversation explores how policy, ideology and evidence continue to shape the education landscape.
The pair also unpack proposals to assess students’ use of AI in NAPLAN, asking what schools are actually for and why writing still matters in an age of generative technology. Finally, they discuss NAPLAN’s role as an accountability measure and whether it can help schools identify ineffective teaching practices.
It’s policy-heavy, slightly controversial, and somehow, it all comes back to Ashman.
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Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #9 NEUROSCIENCE
Season 1 · Episode 9
Thursday, May 28, 2026 • Duration 57:27
This episode’s theme is “neuroscience!” Actually, it’s not, but it comes up a few times.
Greg and Caiti kick things off by unpacking a recent article discussing potential limitations of cognitive load theory. They talk about where these sit within the current cognitive load theory research.
The conversation then takes an unexpected turn into information theory. What is information? Can meaning actually be transmitted? And what is the meaning of meaning? Expect a detour into entropy, whether it might have a role to play in cognitive load theory, and an unexpected (brief) defence of PowerPoint.
Finally, Greg and Caiti dive into the much-discussed attainment grouping report from the Education Endowment Foundation and University College London on mathematics grouping. What do the findings genuinely tell us? What are the limitations? And, most importantly, what should teachers and school leaders actually do when thinking about how to group students?
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
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We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the land on which we recorded this podcast, the land of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
