Hosted by Greg Ashman and Caiti Wade, ‘When Will They Learn?’ explores what’s trending in the world of education. Each episode, Greg and Caiti engage with podcasts, articles and opinions shaping education discourse, examining these through a science of learning lens. They discuss not just what’s popular, but what’s supported by the evidence.
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In this episode, Greg and Caiti begin with ACPUE, who are back to reassure everyone that their work is absolutely not a targeted attack on AERO, despite it appearing as though it is exactly that. We look at the newest defence of their work and how that stands up against their own claims and the broader suite of future projects listed on their website.
From there, we head to the UK (figuratively) and Lucy Powell’s address on the future of schooling, including proposals for new vocational pathways, all coming through the wonderfully optimistic-sounding Department for Hope. Unfortunately, the proposals and history of education reforms in the UK might suggest that there are lesser grounds for hope than one might hope with these new pathways.
Then it’s back to Australia for a discussion of ten strawmen of the Science of Learning. We work through some of Penny Van Bergen’s terrific arguments against the made-up versions of the Science of Learning that are often seen posted all over media.
And finally, just when we thought we were done, a university posts something that stops us in our tracks. Listen to find out more about the big shocker.
Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socials
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
Episode #17 PISA Cope
Season 1 · Episode 17
Thursday, September 17, 2026 • Duration 01:03:20
In this episode, Greg and Caiti start with a deceptively simple question: is the Australian Curriculum anti-boy - and more to the point, what even is anti-boy? We talk about the manosphere (again!) and the challenges schools and individual teachers face when teaching consent and respectful relationships. We also look at the role teacher bias can play in teaching these topics, and what effective teaching in this space might actually look like - and Caiti shares an example of where this has been taught well.
From there, we head into the increasingly chaotic world of PISA and all the PISA cope taking up our social media feeds in the last week. That takes us to England, where we talk about why their PISA results are so significant, but also the discourse around this. And of course, Finland gets a mention, because - would you believe - we’re still talking about Finland’s results.
Along the way, there are Twitter/X debates, LinkedIn articles, competing interpretations of the exact same data, and a bit of a side-step into behaviour in Australian classrooms - because we hadn’t opened enough cans of worms already.
Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socials
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #16 A Load of ACPUE
Season 1 · Episode 16
Thursday, September 3, 2026 • Duration 01:03:45
Disclaimer: The details of what is known about ACPUE were true at the time of recording this episode. Since recording and release, more details may have come to light.
In this episode, Greg and Caiti talk about researchED Canberra - including propellors on planes, pies, and some of the main takeaways from the day, particularly focusing on what it actually takes to make schoolwide change happen.
From there, we shift to Jenny Donovan’s keynote presentation on writing, which sends us directly into a conversation about AERO and the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education, or ACPUE. Who are ACPUE? Where did they come from? What does this have to do with AERO? We discuss all of these questions, and why these, and broader transparency and research integrity matter so much.
Finally, we finish with a conversation about lethal mutations, drawing on an article by Dr Haili Hughes. We chat about what they are, how good ideas can become distorted and some common examples of lethal mutations in the classroom.
Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socials
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #15 Obviously
Season 1 · Episode 15
Thursday, August 20, 2026 • Duration 59:36
This week we deep dive researchED Melbourne and some of the highlights from the recent conference, including conversations and recurring themes from the day. This includes stories about “sailor dudes”, malt wort, terrible attempts at Australian nicknames and lethal mutations of cognitive science. Obviously.
Next, we switch to a new paper by Kean Poon and John Sweller that considers a reconceptualisation of cognitive load theory within special education, and how instructional practices and learnings from this dense body of research might have an application in special education. In particular, we unpack the distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge, and the idea that some things we assume students will acquire naturally may function more like biologically secondary knowledge - and of course, the learnings we can take from research into instructional design if this is the case.
Finally, it wouldn’t be a topical Australian education podcast without a discussion of everyone’s favourite annual education discourse event: NAPLAN. Obviously. This time, prompted by a piece written by Pamela Snow, we discuss the pattern of persistent underperformance in NAPLAN results by around a third of Australian students, the impacts of this on students both in school and post school, and some flaws within this assessment system itself.
It’s going to be a fun one! Obviously.
Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socials
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #14 Scandal Du Jour
Season 1 · Episode 14
Thursday, August 6, 2026 • Duration 59:44
This week we’re serving up the latest education scandal: the scandal du jour!
Before we get into that though, we start off by talking about the Australian Professional Standards for Teachers, specifically referencing the review of the standards. And if you’re an early-bird listener, you can respond to Caiti’s call to action below and get in on the review yourself! Along the way, we unpack the purpose of the standards and whether they really align with that, or even support best practice in the classroom.
Next, we dive into Daisy Christodoulou’s latest piece on transferable skills. This is a refreshing take on a popular topic in education discourse, acknowledging why transferable skills are so desirable, and why the research doesn’t support teaching them.
Finally, we tackle the scandal du jour: the allegations surrounding Jason Arday. Rather than focusing on the individual, we explore the bigger question of institutional responsibility. What happens when universities, publishers and the wider academic ecosystem all have opportunities to ask difficult questions but don’t?
Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socials
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #13 Once Upon a Time at Mossbourne
Season 1 · Episode 13
Thursday, July 23, 2026 • Duration 01:07:54
This week, we begin with the remarkable story of Mossbourne Victoria Park Academy, exploring how one of England’s highest-performing schools found itself at the centre of controversy over discipline, behaviour, and what happens when a school is accused of being too strict. Greg takes us through the long and fascinating history behind the headlines, raising questions about whether the media really does present the full picture.
From there, we discuss the persistent gender imbalance in senior mathematics subjects, unpacking what the evidence says about why these patterns remain and the assumptions that often dominate public debate.
Finally, we turn to the use of parent/guardian behaviour contracts in schools, considering what they reveal about the changing relationship between schools and families, where responsibility for student behaviour begins and ends, and why these policies generate such strong reactions.
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #12 Ooh, gossip!
Season 1 · Episode 12
Thursday, July 9, 2026 • Duration 01:03:53
This week, we’re talking education gossip - not the staffroom kind, but the stories that dominate headlines and social media before anyone has had time to think them through.
We start by discussing the debate surrounding school suspensions, isolation, and behaviour management, following on from last episode’s conversation. Along the way, we explore how schools are portrayed in the media and how public narratives can shape perceptions of education.
From there, we turn our attention to science education in Australasia before the conversation inevitably drifts into internet arguments, education social media, and why online debates seem so determined to turn every issue into a binary.
Finally, we wrap up with a discussion about working-class students in the UK, using a recent news story to reflect on disadvantage, opportunity, and the stories we choose to tell about education.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #11 Universal Design for Neurononsense
Season 1 · Episode 11
Thursday, June 25, 2026 • Duration 57:05
This week we’re diving into three topics that have generated plenty of headlines, strong opinions, and more than a few questionable cases of what we’ve termed ‘neurononsense’.
We unpack discussions around the Victorian' Government’s decision to give principals more powers to suspend students, finally talk about Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and its inherent similarities to learning styles (the neuromyth that keeps on giving!), and talk to technology in the classroom.
As always, we’re less interested in what’s popular than what’s supported by evidence - or what’s not.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #10 All Ashman's Fault
Season 1 · Episode 10
Thursday, June 11, 2026 • Duration 58:21
In this episode of When Will They Learn?, Greg and Caiti tackle a stack of education policy debates - beginning with the most pressing and meta question of all: is it, in fact, all Ashman’s fault?
From claims that evidence-informed approaches have reduced teaching to “death by PowerPoint” and scripting, to the shift from the reading wars to the emerging learning wars, the conversation explores how policy, ideology and evidence continue to shape the education landscape.
The pair also unpack proposals to assess students’ use of AI in NAPLAN, asking what schools are actually for and why writing still matters in an age of generative technology. Finally, they discuss NAPLAN’s role as an accountability measure and whether it can help schools identify ineffective teaching practices.
It’s policy-heavy, slightly controversial, and somehow, it all comes back to Ashman.
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch on any of our socials below!
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Episode #9 NEUROSCIENCE
Season 1 · Episode 9
Thursday, May 28, 2026 • Duration 57:27
This episode’s theme is “neuroscience!” Actually, it’s not, but it comes up a few times.
Greg and Caiti kick things off by unpacking a recent article discussing potential limitations of cognitive load theory. They talk about where these sit within the current cognitive load theory research.
The conversation then takes an unexpected turn into information theory. What is information? Can meaning actually be transmitted? And what is the meaning of meaning? Expect a detour into entropy, whether it might have a role to play in cognitive load theory, and an unexpected (brief) defence of PowerPoint.
Finally, Greg and Caiti dive into the much-discussed attainment grouping report from the Education Endowment Foundation and University College London on mathematics grouping. What do the findings genuinely tell us? What are the limitations? And, most importantly, what should teachers and school leaders actually do when thinking about how to group students?
Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us?
Get in touch
Greg Ashman
Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
