What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About? – Details, episodes & analysis

On this week's episode, we have music manager Dave Rose (Lit, Marcy Playground, Stryper and many many more) and we discuss his journey starting out as a bassist and what it’s like managing today vs. the pre-digital age. Tune in for so much more.

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Dave Rose:

I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?

Dave Rose:

Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.

Michael Jamin:

How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.

Dave Rose:

I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.

Michael Jamin:

That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when we

Dave Rose:

Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.

We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.

Michael Jamin:

But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.

Michael Jamin:

So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.

Dave Rose:

Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is that

Michael Jamin:

Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,

Dave Rose:

And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,

Michael Jamin:

I'm sorry, go on.

Dave Rose:

That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.

Michael Jamin:

But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?

Dave Rose:

Only if you're in country music.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Why is that?

Dave Rose:

It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,

Michael Jamin:

But a touring manager would No,

Dave Rose:

A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.

Michael Jamin:

Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?

Dave Rose:

I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.

Michael Jamin:

Can you share some of 'em with us?

Dave Rose:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.

Michael Jamin:

At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.

Michael Jamin:

But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.

Dave Rose:

I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.

Michael Jamin:

But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,

Dave Rose:

Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.

See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?

It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.

So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.

Michael Jamin:

Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?

Dave Rose:

I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.

Michael Jamin:

From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.

Dave Rose:

Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.

Michael Jamin:

I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.

Dave Rose:

That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. So

Michael Jamin:

Misunderstand this, which is fine.

Dave Rose:

I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.

Michael Jamin:

On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not selling

Dave Rose:

It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.

Michael Jamin:

See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.

Dave Rose:

They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.

Michael Jamin:

But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, but

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dave Rose:

And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.

Dave Rose:

Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter to

Dave Rose:

You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.

Michael Jamin:

I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. Probably

Dave Rose:

Not.

Michael Jamin:

So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl's

Dave Rose:

House,

Michael Jamin:

Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? You

Dave Rose:

Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?

Dave Rose:

I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. It

Michael Jamin:

Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.

Dave Rose:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.

Dave Rose:

It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,

Michael Jamin:

For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.

Dave Rose:

You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.

Michael Jamin:

Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.

Michael Jamin:

I see.

Dave Rose:

And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.

Michael Jamin:

I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. But

Dave Rose:

No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what happened though?

Dave Rose:

That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. Do

Michael Jamin:

You think people walked out? I mean,

Dave Rose:

Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.

Michael Jamin:

I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,

Dave Rose:

Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping it

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. Jump

Dave Rose:

The Shark. Is that a

Michael Jamin:

Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I remember

Dave Rose:

That.

Michael Jamin:

And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.

Dave Rose:

Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.

Dave Rose:

Oh, really?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

Dave Rose:

What did you work on with him?

Michael Jamin:

It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about that

Dave Rose:

Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me about

Michael Jamin:

There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not for

Dave Rose:

Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.

Michael Jamin:

And do you have these conversations with your bands?

Dave Rose:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,

Michael Jamin:

But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.

Dave Rose:

They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?

Michael Jamin:

Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you It

Dave Rose:

Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.

Michael Jamin:

I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.

Dave Rose:

They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.

Michael Jamin:

On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you haven't.

Dave Rose:

It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,

Michael Jamin:

Really? Do you not take it personally then, or

Dave Rose:

One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.

Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.

And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. And

Michael Jamin:

It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?

Dave Rose:

That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at some point you're going to want your act touring with their act, or you're going to want their act being featured on a record of your act. And if you burn bridges, it's just going to, I mean, I know people that do burn bridges, but it's rarely good.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

What is then the pinnacle for, I mean, we know what the pinnacle for an artist's career would be, whatever, selling a ton of records playing the Super Bowl, whatever they aspire to do, but what's the pinnacle for your career?

Dave Rose:

Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, it's interesting. I was taking my son to school the other day and he said, daddy, work seems like it's really fun, is work really fun. And he's come to my office before, and I got thinking about that, and I've chosen a path that really is fun. Never, this sounds corny to say I've never felt like I've worked a day in my life, really. It just really has never felt like work. I am so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music.

There's very few high level artists, celebrities I haven't met or come in contact with. And so none of that is really the moment for me. It's seeing an act like this band formerly that we're looking at. They're a country act. They've had four or five number one hits. They were playing in their garage in Greenville, North Carolina, small town where I grew up. I happened to just know them, and I took them to Nashville, one thing. So that's sort of what this business is for me. You see a band in a garage, and the next thing you know, they're accepting an award on stage, and it's just a beautiful feeling to know that you've helped an artist achieve those dreams.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. It's interesting that that's where you take the joy in. I would think that part, you're not the one who wants that dream. You're not the one, the artist. You're not the one who wants that dream, your dream joy doing it for others.

Dave Rose:

I would think there's similar satisfaction in being a writer, I would think. I mean, maybe you were motivated to be on screen all the time or in front of the camera all the time, but

Michael Jamin:

No, not really. No, not really. But I think writers are worried about their career. I want to write this, I want to make a lot of money or whatever.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Well, the money certainly an enjoyable part of it, but it's not the driving factor, and it can't be in music, so risky.

Michael Jamin:

But you also, I guess, arrange entertainment events,

Dave Rose:

Right? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's very, you did your homework. Yeah, so around the turn of the century, so I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm in Nashville almost weekly, but I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and in Raleigh, North Carolina, there are not a lot of artists management or record labels. It's a big, very creative music city, but there's not a lot of high level. So as Raleigh started to feel like they needed entertainment in their city and started thinking about amphitheaters and growth and expansion of their city, they kind of came to me saying, you've had artists play in these cities all over the country. Could you help us bring the good bad and the ugly of that to Raleigh and help us produce events? So yeah, over the past 20 years have become the kind of go-to, I produced the North Carolina State Fair and all the big festivals,

Michael Jamin:

But you keep it to this one region, though.

Dave Rose:

I do. I pretty much stay in the central, the Eastern North Carolina region. And it's funny because when bands go out on tour, I'm managing bands. I learned from Bruce Hornsby one time. I called him, I'd always check in after the show, and how did it go and whatever. And he went and played one show somewhere, and I said, how was the show? And he said, he kind of laughed while I said this, but he said, I was staring at a funnel cake sign the whole time. What

Michael Jamin:

Does that mean?

Dave Rose:

Funnel cakes? So you're playing this car almost like a carnival. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's plenty of respect in funnel cakes, but as an artist who played in the Grateful Dead Done Jazz records, not really his thing. So I kind of made a joke of always keep the funnel cake stand a little bit away from the stage, but I took all of this feedback from artists, what the backstage was like, what the stage was like, what the PA was like, what the lights were like. I took all the good, bad and the ugly from the artist, and I brought it back to my community to try to make the best concerts and events.

Michael Jamin:

I imagine there was a huge, not just a learning curve, but also financial risk in the beginning for you. No,

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I racked up a lot of credit cards.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? I mean,

Dave Rose:

Oh yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. One of my, yeah, I sure did. We started this company on a credit card, and that's what got us going. We produced CDs on credit card. We racked up a lot of credit card debt hoping this would win.

Michael Jamin:

What do you, and it's paid off.

Dave Rose:

It's paid off,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Dave Rose:

I paid it off last week.

Michael Jamin:

Just last week. You made a final payment, you got points for it. But what advice then, do you have for, I guess, new artists? I mean, maybe either musicians or, I dunno, artists.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. I think the hardest thing to do, particularly in this world of TikTok and YouTube and reels, is to really be authentically you, because it's so easy to want to try to be the person that just went viral,

And that's never going to move the needle. That's never going to make a big splash. You might have a moment, I don't know if you remember, maybe three or four months ago, there was an artist on TikTok named Oliver Anthony that went massively viral. He is a bearded guy from the mountains and kind of just sang very, very pure songs, but went enormously huge. And within weeks, you've got every mountain guy with a beard trying to do the same thing. And it's really hard to not do that. When we're faced with that all the time, back in the day of Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones and everything else, one didn't really know what the other was doing.

Michael Jamin:

So

Dave Rose:

You went into your bubble and you created art in a way that you felt led to do, and now you're so pressured to try to be the next viral thing, and that's the hardest thing. So my advice is don't do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You also, it's funny because I am a fan of your tiktoks. You give such interesting, great advice. You gave one post, this was maybe half a year or maybe a year ago, I don't know. And I was like, yes, I wanted to stitch it, but I guess I just didn't have the balls. And then I forgot about it. The post you did was, I guess a lot of people come to you for advice, and they just think they can just, Hey, you pick your brain or buy you a cup of coffee cup as if your time is worth $5 an hour, because that's what coffee costs. But you handled it very gracefully and graciously, but I'm not sure. Did you get any blowback for it?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. You're on TikTok, the blowback key. I mean, you definitely get, but by and large, by and large, what I ended up getting is it's been beautiful actually. Ever since then, I've got a lot of artists coming to me saying, look, I'm not going to offer to buy you a cup of coffee. I know how you feel about that, but I would like 30 minutes of your time, and how would I go about doing that? That's a beautiful way, I mean, I really picked this up from an attorney one time, and I was on the three-Way call with an artist, an attorney, and myself, and the artist said to the attorney, Hey, I got this contract and I don't really have a lot of money to spend, but I was hoping you could read it over and I could buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brain

Michael Jamin:

On it. Yeah. What did the attorney say?

Dave Rose:

And the attorney said, look, I understand you mean well, but I only have two things to sell. I've got my time and my knowledge, and you have just asked for both of those things for free.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. That's a good way of saying it.

Dave Rose:

And I just thought, wow. That's right. And as a manager, that's what you have. You got your time, your knowledge, and your connections. And if you're picking my brain, you are asking for those things for free. And I don't have anything else to feed my family with, but

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, is it because, because people ask me the same thing, and I guess it's because some people are actually giving it to them for free. Do you think

Dave Rose:

It is? Yeah. I mean, they must be, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, I guess.

Michael Jamin:

But then I wonder if you're only paying $5 for advice, and that advice is only worth $5, I mean, why would you want to take $5 advice?

Dave Rose:

Right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, that's been a tough part of the music business because yeah, so thanks for noticing that. But I do think we, as a sort of service society, whether you're a screenwriter or whether you're a manager or an agent or whatever, all people really have is what's in their head and their time. And so to take that so lightly is to think that buying you lunch is going to somehow make it worthwhile. It just doesn't, not only doesn't make sense in a strange way, it's rude.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I don't think it's strange. I mean, I do think it's rude. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Rose:

But as I said, I think in that TikTok, I said, I understand you're offering to buy me something. So I understand that you're trying to be in your own way, polite, but let me just educate you. That's not a compliment to say that your time is worth a cup of coffee.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. But I appreciated that video. I really did. I was like, do

Dave Rose:

You get a lot of people asking to pick your brain?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. I guess less and less, but

Dave Rose:

You do some consulting as well, right?

Michael Jamin:

Well, what I did was eventually I signed up for, there's this app where you can sign up to be an expert. And so people ask me a question, sometimes it's an autoresponder, and it says, if you want to book time with Michael, you can do it. So here, a half a dozen people have booked. Everyone's asking, but no one books time. So to me, interesting. And I didn't do it because that's to make money, but I was like, well, look, if you want it, you're going to have to pay. But they don't want it bad enough to pay. So,

Dave Rose:

Well, it's interesting. I'm on a platform called August managers.io, and that's where I do my 30 minute consultations. And I've partially used it as a filter. It's funny, I'll get artists that go out and spend $10,000 on recording and $10,000 on video and photo shoots, and then they'll come to me and say, can I pick your brain for a cup of coffee? And I'm thinking, you have just spent $20,000 making music, and now the most important part, getting it out to the public, that's worth a cup of coffee to you. So I sort of use this platform as a filter. It's like Chemistry 1 0 1 in college. If you're willing to just invest a tiny bit to spend a little bit of time with a professional, I at least know you're serious.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how I see it as well. So you're weeding people out. They don't really want, yeah, I guess that's how unserious they are. If they're getting caught up on booking a half hour with me, then they don't really want,

Dave Rose:

I would think in your world, people want you to read their script, is

Michael Jamin:

That, oh, there's a lot of that, but you got to pay me way more than, I mean, here's the thing. I don't even do it, but they all want it. They want me to spend an hour and a half reading their script, another hour assembling notes, and then another hour on a phone call them giving them my notes while they get angry and defensive telling me why I'm wrong and do it for free. I mean, oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a ball to me. But it's not about the money. The answer is no, all around. But it also exposes me to liability side because I don't want to be sued for taking someone's idea. So

Dave Rose:

Totally. I mean, that's a big part of the music business a lot. You'd hear about unsolicited music, and a lot of people, myself included, will not even open an email with music attached if I don't know who it is. Is it

Michael Jamin:

Because for liability reasons?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. They

Michael Jamin:

Think you're going to steal their sound or their song.

Dave Rose:

I think Yes. I think they do think that. And I think in the history of the music business, that has happened maybe three times. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Interesting. So it's funny that that's a topic even, I don't know if it happens in the film and TV business, but in the music business that anytime you've heard of a lawsuit of one suing the other about a sound, it's very, very rarely actual theft. Most often, there's only eight chords, and you can arrange them in only so many ways. And if you're in a genre like hip hop or country where it's in some ways a little bit of a formula in the way your pop music is that way, you write very narrow melodies and chord progressions. It's bound to your, I mean, about the a hundred thousand songs released a day, you're bound to cross paths there in a close manner. It's very rarely malicious.

Michael Jamin:

So then how are you listening to new music, if at all? Is it because you see an act on stage or something?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, no, I will listen to it if it's coming to me from a vetted source or if it's coming to me in a way that I feel. But I get a lot of just very blind emails, never met, seen, heard of the person. And one of my favorite quotes was Gene Simmons said one time, look, if I'm hearing about you for the first time from you, you're not ready.

Michael Jamin:

You're not ready. Interesting.

Dave Rose:

Because we keep our ears to the ground. I mean, I'm hearing about artists all the time. I mean, I can't go to the dentist without hearing about five new artists. People know that we work in the music business. So no matter where I go, the coffee shop, the dentist, the pizza shop, whatever, they're going to tell me about their cousin that just released a song. That's the next Beatles. So I hear about stuff, and if I hear about it from 7, 8, 9 different places, I start to know there's something there.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I directed Gene Simmons, by the way, on an animated show. I had to yell. No

Dave Rose:

Way.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah. Well, he came into the studio like a rockstar, which is what he is, of course. And then he is holding court and, Hey, dude, we're paying for this thing. And I knew I was going to get yelled at by my boss, so I had to say, Hey, gene, we're recording now. I had to tell shot him, get onto the microphone.

Dave Rose:

Oh, that's awesome. He is a really interesting person. I've met him a couple of times. I really am amazed by his story.

Michael Jamin:

That's funny. Chrissy Hy came in. My partner had to direct Chrissy, and she came in also like a rockstar into the booth, and she's smoking a cigarette and you're not supposed to with the equipment. And he asked her to put it out, and she wouldn't. And he was like, that's fine with me. Whatcha going to do?

Dave Rose:

I love it. She's

Michael Jamin:

Chrissy Hein. She gets to do what she wants. But that's so interesting. Yeah. I get that same sometimes when people ask me a question and I wonder if you feel the same way about breaking into the business or some kind of basic thing. They leave a comment and I'm like, all you got to do is just scroll down and all my videos are labeled. You're going to find it. I wonder how bad you want it. If you feel like you have to ask me without looking. This is literally the least you have to do to find an answer nowadays.

Dave Rose:

I did a video recently where one of the most common questions I get is, somebody will present their music to me and they'll say, do you think I have what it takes to make it? And that is without question, the hardest question to answer because I don't know your definition of make it. And to be honest, a lot of people don't know their definition of make it. I had a band come into my office one time, they finally, they've been wanting to line up a meeting. They came in and they said, I said, so what do you guys want to do? What are you hoping to do? And they said, well, we want to be successful. You know what I mean? And I said, well, no, I don't know what you mean. Tell me what success means to you. And they said, well, we want to make a living at music.

I said, well, that's good. I can have you doing that within 30 days. And they kind of looked at me like, wow. We hit the jackpot coming to this meeting, and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to buy you a bunch of tuxedos. You're going to learn some top 40 songs. We're going to play the wedding and corporate cover circuit, make a great living. They kind of looked at you and they were like, no, that's not what we meant. Okay, let me change that answer. We want to make a living playing our music. I said, alright. Little bit harder to do, but we can still do it. There's sports bars around the country where you set up in the corner and they don't really care what you play, your background music, but you make a pretty decent living. You'll make good tips.

We're like, no, no. Lemme think about this. They thought about it for a little bit more and they said, okay, we got it. We want to be on the radio. Then one other guy spoke up and he said, playing our music. I said, okay, I got you, my friend does the Sunday night local show on the radio station. He's a friend of mine. He'll play anything I send him. I'll send him your song, he'll play it on Sunday. You will have been successful. And they like, all right. And one guy spoke up at that point and he said, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to confuse us. I said, no, no, no. You're quite confused on your own I'm trying to do is point out that I can't help you until you know what you want. And there's no wrong answer to that. Some artists come to me and say, I want world domination. I want to be the next big, huge thing. And others simply say, I just want to make great music and I don't really care if I make a living. I just want good quality music out there.

Michael Jamin:

Is that right?

Dave Rose:

Oh yeah. People

Michael Jamin:

Really do. But I imagine, I mean, you got to pay your bills. That's not attractive to you. Right?

Dave Rose:

It's not attractive to me and that's okay, but there's still a place for that in this world. But yeah, and here's the other thing. A lot of people think they want that world domination and playing arenas, but the moment we start saying things like, well, let's say a country artist came to me and they said, I want to be the biggest country star in the world. First thing out of my mouth would be, you're going to need to move to Nashville. You don't need to do that in every genre, but in country, that's a must be present To Win town, you're going to have to be in Nashville. Well, I don't really want to do that. I got this and a job and whatever. So I tell people all the time, prioritize where music is in your life. It doesn't have to be number one, but just knowing where it is will help you make decisions on what's most important. When I give advice to artists, I often ask them, do you have kids and are you married? And tell me about your personal life. The truth is, the advice I give to someone with a two month old baby at home is different than a single 21-year-old that can go out and explore the world.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think it is that people like me, Hollywood, what do I get? What do we get wrong about the music industry when we portray it on TV and film?

Dave Rose:

Oh wow. Well, it's funny because in every music based show, I used to watch the show Nashville, which was produced very well, and it was done in Nashville, so it had a lot of authenticity to it. But I think what I don't think you get it wrong, I think you have to portray it this way because that's the way TV is made. But you can go from in one episode writing a song to going on tour with Bon Jovi all within a week or two's time, what seems like a week or two's time in a film or TV show. And it's a laborious, long as you know from any aspect of entertainment, it's years before you start to take off from that runway. It's a several year runway, but I think the public as a result of just all of our short attention spans shows and even movies have to be written. So that what seems like in a couple of months, couple of weeks, sometimes you go from writing this song to touring with Beyonce.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you think, and I say this selfishly, I want to know for myself, why do you think the runways is so long before you take off? Why does that mean, why does it take so long?

Dave Rose:

Well, I think a lot of it is because writing music, like writing anything takes a lot of hours to get good at it.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, but let's say you got your album out and it's a great album now it's going to take years before

Dave Rose:

No, no, no, no, no. It's going to take years to get that great

Michael Jamin:

Album. Right. Okay.

Dave Rose:

Right. Once that great album is assembled and together, it can be a relatively, I mean, it can be a relatively short runway to success once that great in Nashville, there's a saying when somebody comes into me with a publisher and a publisher is someone who oversees the copyrights of songs, but when someone comes to me with a publisher and they say, how many songs have you written? No matter what the answer is, they almost always say, come back when you've written your next a hundred. Really, there's kind of an unwritten seven year rule in Nashville. You should not expect success for at least seven years after you come to town

Michael Jamin:

With your first album,

Dave Rose:

With your first set of releases. It just takes that long to get really, really top level good at this in any genre. I think, I mean, if there was a comment section on this podcast, there would be tons of people giving me the exceptions to those rules right now, which is the beauty of the music business or any entertainment. There's exceptions to that rule. There's overnight sensations, but by and large, most of the big artists had a long runway.

Michael Jamin:

So you're listening, if you were listening to an album by a new artist, you're thinking, okay, maybe one or two songs has got something in the rest are just not there. You're saying

Dave Rose:

Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you take a band, it's funny, that first hit, I worked with Sex and Candy, the band, Marcy Playground, between the time they rode and recorded that and it became a number one hit was four years.

Michael Jamin:

Okay,

Dave Rose:

Four years.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. So they had the goods, but it took four years before people discovered they had the goods.

Dave Rose:

That's right. That was a very interesting journey. They charted on college radio and then they tried to work to regular radio. It didn't happen, and they label problems and they tried again and it finally happened. Same thing with this band, sixpence On The Richer and the song Kiss Me. They had that song Kiss Me on a Record, and it did not become a hit for another two years.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. So then how do they do that? Is it just touring? Is it just getting it out there? Just having people listen,

Dave Rose:

In the nineties it was touring. It was just getting out there and touring

Michael Jamin:

Even. Not today. You're saying today's it's not like that today.

Dave Rose:

It's not. I mean, it's some touring is one aspect of it, but the beauty of Michael, you and I would not be here talking if it were not for TikTok. And as much as I love to hate on social media platforms for all the reasons they're easy to hate on there is I tell our assist all the time. There is someone in Topeka, Kansas right now that loves what you do. You just got to find them. And if you do, there'll be fans for life. But unless you plan on touring Topeka, Kansas this week, you're not going to find 'em. So get online and post

Michael Jamin:

How many, I've heard numbers and I if it's true, but how many crazy, what's the word, rabid fans, do you need think a band needs before they hit critical mass?

Dave Rose:

Well, critical mass is a subjective term, but I say this a lot. You only need a thousand fans. And I'm talking about real fans. Fans that would give the shirt off their back fans. I'm not talking about followers,

Michael Jamin:

I'm not

Dave Rose:

Talking about likes or subscribes,

Michael Jamin:

Right? People who open their wallet,

Dave Rose:

A thousand fans that consume everything you put out. That's all you need to make a great living in music.

Michael Jamin:

But how is that possible? Okay, so if you've had a thousand fans, they're scattered all across the country and I don't understand, how does that make you a good living? You can put it on a new album to a thousand fans. How does that make you a living?

Dave Rose:

I'll tell you how that is because when I was 10 years old, I had a older cousin, cousin Rick and I went to his house and he had a wall of vinyl records, more vinyl records than you could ever imagine. And he reached and he had got a new stereo and he wanted to show me the stereo, and he pulled up a Boston record, the classic rock band Boston. They had just put out their first record and he put it on the turntable and he was telling me everything he needed to tell me about Boston, and I was just mostly fascinated by the fact that of a thousand records on his wall, he picked that one to tell me about it. And from there I went and bought the record. I consumed, I bought the T-shirts, I bought this. The thing about a thousand fans is they're your marketing arms. A thousand fans are not going to keep your music close to their chest and keep it over here in the corner. They're going to tell everybody that'll possibly listen. And if you've got a fan that it gets in the car with their friends and they got three minutes to the next drive and a billion songs to choose from, they're going to choose yours. And that's going to turn those fans, those friends into fans. So it starts with a thousand core fans and you can really take over the world.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, and again, I say this selfishly, I put out a book, and so this is the first venture. I've done solo like this, and so I'm curious how many, when do I go viral? How does that work for me? When do my thousand fans kick in and how does that

Dave Rose:

Work? I think a book is the hardest thing in the world. I've now released, I'm about to release my third book, and it is the hardest thing. God bless you. This is a great book. And by the way, everybody, I mean John Mayer endorses it. I loved your video on John Mayer,

Michael Jamin:

By the way.

Dave Rose:

I mean, that's insane. But yeah. Yeah. I hope your thousand fans, I feel like they're out there

Michael Jamin:

Because you think because no one wants to read, you're saying

Dave Rose:

No. I think fans do want to read. I mean, do you have an audio version of this?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I have an audiobook. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. So you've 'em covered whether they want to read or not. Right,

Michael Jamin:

Right. Interesting. Okay.

Dave Rose:

Did you read the book for the audio version?

Michael Jamin:

Perform it really? It's a performance. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll have to listen to that. That sounds really interesting. No, I think a thousand fans can be your marketing champions, but getting those thousand is hard. It's the equivalent of having a thousand really good friends that really care about what you do. They're passionate about your calls, your reason for doing this.

Michael Jamin:

But do you have any evidence to suggest that a thousand is the right number? You know what I'm saying?

Dave Rose:

I don't. Right. Well, I know this, there's a lot. One of the revenue streams right now for artists is things like Patreon and Patreon's a big thing for the super fan. The super fan will give you a little bit of money each month, three, five, $10 to consume a little extra insight into your life, whether that be unreleased songs or behind the scenes videos or whatever that might be.

Michael Jamin:

That seems hard though, but I'm sorry, go ahead.

Dave Rose:

If you have a thousand people willing to give you $5 a month cup of coffee back to our cup

Michael Jamin:

Of coffee,

Dave Rose:

$5 a month, that's $5,000 a month just on that one revenue stream. They're also going to consume your music. They're going to buy your T-shirts, they're going to come to your shows, but more importantly, a thousand fans can quickly turn viral into 10,000 when they're passionately telling everyone under the sun about you.

Michael Jamin:

You must must talk about this with your bands about shutting a Patreon, but don't they say, well, we are already posting on social media. What the hell else do we have to say behind the paywall when we're already saying everything? We're already struggling to give enough for free.

Dave Rose:

The thing that I'm finding is working the most is one-on-one or Experiences. For example, I have this one artist that does listening parties on their Patreon. They go on and they play their music, and they'll talk about the making of it, and they'll pause the record and they'll say, Hey, I was trying this solo and it didn't work. And these are one-on-one, and the people are shooting questions and the artist is answering them, and they're not recorded, and they happen in the moment. And so for an extra five bucks a month, you get to get inside the life of that artist, and

Michael Jamin:

You can put that inside Patreon. How is it being broadcast?

Dave Rose:

So it's being broadcast just on a Zoom, but only patrons have that link and they have a special code to get in and all that sort of stuff,

Michael Jamin:

And that's kind of what they're doing for $5 a month. You get basically that

Dave Rose:

You get experiences. Some artists, it really depends on your fan base. Some artists release a song per month. They'll write a song and release it. Got a Texas artist that I'm friends with that that's what he does. He releases a song only to his Patreon crowd once a month. He's such a prolific writer. He could probably write an album per month. So putting an extra song on Patreon that nobody else hears is,

Michael Jamin:

And no one else will hear that song. Nobody

Dave Rose:

Else

Michael Jamin:

Will ever. I mean, that seems almost crazy.

Dave Rose:

Well, I wouldn't say ever, but in some ways you can use Patreon as your vetting for what songs you should be releasing.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dave Rose:

You can put 'em out there to your thousand hardcore fans and watch which ones they really react to.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a Patreon?

Dave Rose:

I don't personally, no. I run a lot of Patreons for artists. I don't personally have one. No,

Michael Jamin:

Those are all interesting ideas. Any other you? No, but I've been, here's the thing, Dave, every time I should, but I'm like, do I really want to put more on my plate? You know what I'm saying? It's putting stuff on your plate.

Dave Rose:

You've got a great course. I've been very much admiring your ability to put out courses, and one of the things I've liked that you've done, I've noticed, is you put out very specific topics for a pretty low amount.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's free. I do these webinars that are free. Well,

Dave Rose:

The webinars, the free webinars are insane. I, but I would think that's got to help in the overall big picture of things. No,

Michael Jamin:

Maybe yes and no. Yes and no. We could talk more. Maybe we'll talk more about that off the podcast. I'll get your advice on something. Yeah, but

Dave Rose:

You do have courses, right? I mean,

Michael Jamin:

I have one course. Yeah, it's a screenwriting course. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

And I mean, somebody might buy that in the middle of the night and you're making money without having Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Which is nice. And that supports me, that allows me to do the creative things that I want to do that don't necessarily make a lot of money, but I want to do 'em. So yeah.

Dave Rose:

What are you working on right now that you're able to tell,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, well, you're

Dave Rose:

Able to

Michael Jamin:

Share? Right now it's about putting my book, getting my book out there. We're pitching an animated pilot in the next couple of weeks. Will it sell? I don't know. We'll see. And then we'll pitch a couple other shows. Will it sell? We don't know. That's how it goes.

Dave Rose:

I want to mention that real quick as it relates to your music audience. That's a big question. I guess somebody will write a song and send it to me and say, do you think I could sell this to another artist? Which is interesting because in music it does not work that way at all. You don't sell a song.

Michael Jamin:

I think you write a song. I think you could be a songwriter for somebody. So what's the difference then?

Dave Rose:

So when you write a song, you basically give that song to an artist, and if that artist chooses to cut it, you are in a revenue stream on that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Okay. That you

Dave Rose:

Don't sell songs. Big misconception in the music business,

Michael Jamin:

But I guess I'm not clear on the difference then wouldn't you send them a track and say, do you like this? And then you have to send 'em a track. They have to hear it, right?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. They have to hear it. And if they like it, they cut it. They don't pay you for that song. Whenever that song is played on the radio, you get a royalty stream from that, or you get a royalty stream

Michael Jamin:

From

Dave Rose:

It's spun on Spotify royalty stream from that. But the artist is not buying a song from you, and by the way, you still own that song. So you can take that song to someone else and to someone else and to someone else. That's why you have lots of different cover versions of

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. Song. Okay, so you can get three different artists. I would've thought if you, I'm so sorry, I meant to put this on silent. Lemme this right now, I can

Dave Rose:

Hear.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. I would've thought when whoever major, whatever, Taylor Swift, I dunno, maybe she probably writes all her own music, but if she didn't were to agree to record your song, I would've thought she'd say, no, it's me and me alone.

Dave Rose:

You can't do that. It's not the way, yeah. I mean, she can say, I'm the first one to do it. You can't let someone else do it first. But once a song, this is an interesting part of the music business, but once a song is in the public demand, once it's been released, anyone can cover it. Day Taylor Swift releases a song, you, Michael Jamin can go the very next day and record that song as long as the proper royalties are paid to her as the songwriter.

Michael Jamin:

Why is that not done more often then?

Dave Rose:

You don't even need to ask her permission. I mean, it is done. Just pop on Spotify or YouTube. If you take any song, take a Taylor Swift song and just search YouTube or search Spotify, and you're going to see hundreds of versions of that song.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. See, I'm long on all this stuff. I failed. This has been a very eyeopening conversation for

Dave Rose:

Me. Oh man. Next week I'm going to reverse the, I'm going to be asking you questions. If I had a podcast, you'd be my first

Michael Jamin:

Guest. I would appreciate that. No, I would do it in a heartbeat. Dave Rose, you are, thank you so much, and I want to make sure everyone knows where they can follow you on all their social media.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, so the name of my company is Deep South. If you search Dave Rose Deep South on almost any, I mean, stick it in Google and that'll take you everywhere You need

Michael Jamin:

To go take everywhere. Go follow. I mean, go follow him. There's so much overlap, I feel between the things that we say, and yet still, I feel like I learn a lot just by listening to you and watching

Dave Rose:

You. Likewise, when I started following your page, I was like, wow, there is a lot of similarities

Michael Jamin:

In this business. Yeah, it's so interesting. But thank you again so much. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation. Don't go anywhere. Don't stay right there. Alright, everyone, what a great conversation we had. Go follow Dave Rose and Deep South and until Next Week, keep writing.

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, we have actor Cynthia Mann Jamin (Friends, Ahh! Real Monsters, Angry Beavers and many many more) and we discuss her journey as an actor and director. We also talk about how the two of us met as well as what it’s like working together. Tune in for so much more.

Cynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/

Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482

Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/

A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

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Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

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Cynthia Mann Jamin:

If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Michael Jamin:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Hi Michael.

Michael Jamin:

Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You could say we're roommates.

Michael Jamin:

This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?

Michael Jamin:

I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.

Michael Jamin:

Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?

Michael Jamin:

I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. I

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. You

Michael Jamin:

Did. I

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasonings

Michael Jamin:

And

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Stuff. Yes, tea

Michael Jamin:

Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. We

Michael Jamin:

Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So you

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.

Michael Jamin:

And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.

Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.

Michael Jamin:

I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.

Michael Jamin:

I don't

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,

Michael Jamin:

I want to say.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.

Michael Jamin:

It was me,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It was you.

Michael Jamin:

And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. So

Michael Jamin:

My

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Knees went weak when you

Michael Jamin:

That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we had tea instead.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

He said, that's okay, huh?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.

Michael Jamin:

And then we've been together ever since.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.

Michael Jamin:

Then

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.

Michael Jamin:

And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.

And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.

Michael Jamin:

And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?

Michael Jamin:

I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.

Michael Jamin:

All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.

Michael Jamin:

We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something else

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

Michael Jamin:

I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, what

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You could say it. You could say it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,

Michael Jamin:

Happy childhood memories.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Dress isn't just a,

Michael Jamin:

You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's what

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.

Michael Jamin:

But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, it started as a

Michael Jamin:

Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,

Michael Jamin:

But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, it's not a magic show.

Michael Jamin:

No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.

Michael Jamin:

That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.

Michael Jamin:

So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, but

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.

Michael Jamin:

But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.

Michael Jamin:

You had to bring it more

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.

Michael Jamin:

But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.

I think there's a betterness to what we have.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. But

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.

Michael Jamin:

There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

We all go. Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Letter to the actor.

Michael Jamin:

Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.

Michael Jamin:

And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,

Michael Jamin:

But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty on

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.

Michael Jamin:

But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to show

Michael Jamin:

It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with the

Michael Jamin:

Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and oh

Michael Jamin:

My God. So what happens if you hear a noise backstage during your show,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You incorporate it. Even if you don't want to draw attention to it, you as the actor, because the audience is all going to hear it. So if you hear that, I have to just kind of go, all right, I don't have to comment on it. I just have to take that moment and allow it to be there. Because again, if you deny it,

Michael Jamin:

But doesn't that break the fourth wall? If you hear a banging backstage and then you turn your head and you acknowledge it, it's backstage.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it could be if you're the character and you hear something backstage, that's the world you're in. It could be in the next room.

Michael Jamin:

You have to, if you don't acknowledge it, if you don't acknowledge, it's like, well, why aren't they acknowledging?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And then there's a giant elephant in the room and stuff like props falling over. Oh my God. There'd be the worst thing an actor could do. One of the worst things is like their hat falls off and it's not supposed to fall off. And the whole time it's sitting in the middle of the stage, the audience is worried about the hat. Now we're going to be thinking about the hat. So the worst thing an actor can do is to deny that the hat fell off. You know what I mean? Use it. Use all of it. All it is for the moment to fuel you. And sometimes the best. When I was on friends, David Schwimmer and I were rehearsing our scene. You did a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad. Yes, I know that scene. And we were rehearsing it and we screwed up, but we didn't sit there and go, oh, wait a minute.

We screwed up the line. Let's take it back. No, you just go with it. And Marta and David, the show creators were standing right off to the side, and they're like, wait a minute, guys, what happened there? It was like, yeah, we screwed up the lines. Well, that's going in. We're going to do it that way now. And so the best, the happy accidents are when you don't plan it and you're going with it. And Michael, you have some amazing moments in the audio book where you can't speak. You're so full of emotion that you can't speak. And I've listened to it a number of times in my car, and my heart goes into my throat because I can't see you. And a lot of times I don't remember. It always catches me by surprise that that moment is happening. And I think, oh my God, did the audio track drop out? Because there's such a stillness. And then all of a sudden you come back in and your next line is just, you can barely even talk. And that resonates through the frigging speaker. We're not even seeing you. That's how powerful our emotion is if we just allow it to take us and to trust it. And it's transformative. It

Michael Jamin:

Really is a time machine for me, because when I'm retelling those stories, it's like I'm living it again. Again. And people, the funny thing is, people after that show, when I do this, some of those stories, people are worried about me.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Because that's what IA Kaza talks about, is you just leave it all on the stage. Yeah. Because why else are you there? Why are you there? If you're not going to go there, then why are you there?

Michael Jamin:

That's why I feel like one of the things that I like about personal essays, which is so hard to explain to people, but when they read it, they get it. Is that a novel? The characters are made up. They're fictitious. And the worst thing that can happen to your charact, they'll die. But again, they're just made up, so everything's fine. Your favorite made up character just had something horrible. Again, they're just made up. But with these personal essays, I feel the stakes are higher. I feel like it's a unique art form because the stakes, it's a real person telling real stories about themselves. The stakes are higher because they're not made up.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And that's the beauty of you performing your own work too, is that you can really shine in that way. You don't have to worry about becoming a character, putting something on, but I think it is hard for you because you have to psyche yourself up to really go there. It's like your energy has to be up. You have to be willing to investigate that. And if you're not feeling it, you got to go with the truth that you're not feeling it it. Then see where that leads you. It's scary.

Michael Jamin:

It's also, the funny thing is I don't really have any desire to do anybody else's to act in someone else's show. I don't have a desire to become an actor. It's just really more like I have a desire to pursue this art.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And why do you feel the pinch to want to perform it? And I've asked you this in the end of the audio book too, but it's not so much. What is it in you that needs to be seen and heard, or

Michael Jamin:

I'm not entirely clear on it. I just want to, I suppose it's because, and I'm very happy. I've had a long and successful career as a TV writer, but part of me also feels like there's just something missing from what I write.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's similar to when I was a dancer. I was like, I need more expression than this. I have to act now because dancing just is part of the expression, but it's not allowing me to fully express everything. So maybe performing is part of that for you. It's not enough to just have people read it or listen to it. You want to experience it with them. You need that connection, that expression.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I guess. And I also, I kind of want to just do something special. That's all. Because I wonder sometimes before when I go on, I go, why am I doing this? I just want to create something special that people will like. And I think people get it from the book and the audio book, so it's not necessary. I don't think it's necessary for me to perform, but maybe it's a plus. I don't know.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah. I think more will be revealed as they say. You'll see why. And that's another thing about following those creative impulses. I know because I have this hindsight with Twirly Girl, after doing it for 15 years, I can honestly look back and say that I would've never expected to have experienced what I experienced in the way that all the gifts that it brought me, there's no way I could have predicted that. And I think it's the same thing here. You just don't know where it's going to lead you, but you feel the need to do it. And I think that's enough. I think that's all you need, honestly. It takes on a life of its own too.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. We'll see where it goes, but we'll just put energy into it and see where it goes.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yes. Onto the next project. But this project now,

Michael Jamin:

Well, maybe that, is that where we conclude this podcast? Is there anything else to cover?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I don't know. I don't know anything else for you.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I'm very grateful for all your help doing this. I couldn't do any of this without you. And for everyone listening, it really helps if you have someone helping you with whatever your project is, it does help a lot. And so you have to find the right person, whoever that is.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I'm so grateful for you and everything that you've brought me, and this is just a joy and everything I want it to be. It is. And I'm so happy to be working with you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're sweet. Alright, everyone, there you go. A paper orchestra signed copies are available@michaeljamin.com. You can also find the link to the paperback, the ebook, the audiobook, the audiobooks on Audible, Spotify, and Apple. It's called The Paper Orchestra, produced and directed by Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, but here's the thing, guys. If you want to see him in person, we would love to meet you. So keep in touch with us.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, sign up at michael jamin.com/upcoming. Okay, everyone, thank you again. Thank you, Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Thank you, Michael. I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I love you.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again, another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, I have TikTok Star Mackenzie Barmen. We talk about what she has already accomplished in her very short time in LA, as well as some of the projects she has planned for the future. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.

Mackenzie Barmen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziebarmen/

Mackenzie Barmen on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mackenziebarmen?lang=en

Mackenzie Barmen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAP_cFPc2fqGTe50YhOlkDg/videos

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Mackenzie Barman:

There's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I am certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. I just, I'm doing,

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, I'll tell you what I've been talking about. If you've been listening to any number of my podcasts or by social media, I've been saying the same thing a lot. I've been saying, if you are an aspiring whatever, if you're an actor or a writer or performer, put your work out there. Just start doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get. And then my next guest is someone who did just that and is doing that, and I discovered her maybe a year or two ago, and we're going to talk, and she's big. We're going to talk to her about her journey here. Mackenzie Barman, thank you so much for coming here. Lemme tell you when I first found you, and then you'll Yes, please. Then we'll tell you were doing a bit, it was a piece on you were reciting nursery rhymes, and you playing two characters.

You generally will talk about this, but you generally do two characters have, and you're both, and usually it's kind of a sweet and naive version of you. And then there's kind of a meaner more, not sinister, but cynical. And I guess she puts you in your place. She's a little, and she wants up making you cry a lot. And so the sweet one was talking about nursery rhyme, and the other one was telling you, you're so naive, you have no idea what these nursery rhymes are about. And so that blew up and that's how I found you, and it was really funny. I love

Mackenzie Barman:

It. Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

Well, tell me, what is this? So you're huge on TikTok, you have almost 3 million followers, which is

Mackenzie Barman:

Almost

Michael Jamin:

Huge. I've written for shows that haven't been seen by anywhere near 3 million people. So you have a giant following, but tell me, so why did you start doing this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I was an actor in the pandemic, and I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so everyone was on TikTok for fun. That was when TikTok was really blowing up, and I kind of just decided to start making videos and then not taking it seriously at all. But then I was like, well, it gives me a kind of a platform. And no one was really using it like that yet. But I started to see some sketches pop up and I was like, huh, or viral videos, whatever. And then I ended up just at random seeing somebody write about a nursery rhyme in a Facebook status. And I was still using Facebook, which I don't, and I was like, oh. And I learned in that moment what that nursery rhyme meant. So I just on a whim made that first

Michael Jamin:

Video. So that was one of your first videos?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, it was one. I did a whole series of those ones. So I did it and I just kind of improvised it. And the next morning I woke up and it had gone kind of viral, and so I made another one, and then I made another one and they kind of just blew up. And so, yeah, it was kind of random.

Michael Jamin:

But your intention, it was boredom or was it, you said you wanted to have a platform. What was your goal?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was a little bit out of boredom, but it was more so like, well, let me put myself out there. And I used to go to a lot of casting director workshops and when I lived in New York City, and they would always say the same thing when YouTube was really big, make your own web series, put yourself out there, all that stuff. And so that's always been in the back of my mind, and I've always kind of considered myself a multihyphenate. I also shoot and direct and all that stuff, so I was like, I need to do that. So that's why I've always kind of focused on acting, being the primary thing in my videos. Let's get to that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was going to say, it's really smart. You show a range. I mean, you have, like I said, the sweet side, and then the other side is, and sometimes you play well, you're always playing characters, but to me it's smart. You're showing your range as an actor.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What do your reps have to say about all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

They love it. I actually got my managers through TikTok, they found me and oh my

Michael Jamin:

God, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had already had voiceover representation through my agency, but I didn't have a manager or anything. And I met my manager, Rachel. I loved her right away. And they love it, and they love the content and that it's acting first and the series and all that.

Michael Jamin:

So they give you any feedback or No, they just like, we love it.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not really. They just let me roll with it. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. And then what other opportunities have come from all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Gosh, well, one of the coolest things is the relationships that I've built with other creators, especially actor creators. And you just kind of know when you vibe with some people or when I watch certain people, I'm like, I know our brains work the same way. So I seek those people out to become, I love getting to know the people that I admire. It's cool to meet people talent first, and then it's doing a play with somebody. I

Michael Jamin:

Know you collaborate with people sometimes. I've seen some of those videos you've done.

Mackenzie Barman:

I've done a couple. I'm going to be doing more now that I'm in LA and with a lot more people. But that's been a really cool thing that's come from this. Did

Michael Jamin:

You start this in New York your first three years? Yeah. Oh, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay. Yeah, I just moved to LA a few weeks ago. I was in New York

Michael Jamin:

City. Oh, when you said you changed your apartments, I assumed you were moved, okay. From in la, but you're Oh, you're, well, welcome to la. Okay. Thank you. Wow, this is a big adjustment for you. So what prompted you to move to LA then?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, my managers are out here, and since TikTok, I've really, it's funny. I was always kind of like, I wanted to really be such a chameleon and not hone in on any one thing. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't want to just do drama. But now with TikTok, it's really pushed me more into comedy, and I've found that I really do love it. So out here, there's so many comedy opportunities, and I'm going to be doing part of a live show on December 10th, and just being, I just needed to be out here.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So how did you get, you've only been here for three minutes, so how did you get this live show already?

Mackenzie Barman:

Through a friend of mine, actually, through social media. Someone you, oh

Michael Jamin:

My God, so smart. I'm always yelling at people. They're like, do I have to be in la? I'm like, well, this is where everyone is. I mean, why would you know? What were you doing? Were you doing a lot of theater in New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, so I did a lot of regional theater. I did an off-Broadway musical, and then when the pandemic happened, I was really trying to shift into more TV and film work. I really wanted to be on tv. I still do. That's really my big focus is to be on tv, be in movies. But I was kind of transitioning and doing the casting director workshops and doing all those things, and then the pandemic hit. But yeah, mostly theater. I'm a theater girl

Michael Jamin:

Now. Did you study, where have you studied? Did you study in college? Where did, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I went to a SUNY school and I loved it. I went to SUNY Potsdam in upstate New York, and I studied theater and theater education. I didn't really start doing plays until high school and in high school. So

Michael Jamin:

You're from New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm from New York. From

Michael Jamin:

New York, okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, born and raised, upstate New York, near Albany. And then, yeah, I moved down to the city to be an actor and do all that. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. You've only been here three weeks and so much has already happened for you already.

Mackenzie Barman:

What do you think? Yeah, I'm trying.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think It's a culture shock. What do you think?

Mackenzie Barman:

Right now, I'm in my lust for life extrovert phase where I'm like, because a homebody pretty much, I'm an extroverted homebody, so I like to be home a lot. But right now I'm just trying to be out a lot, meet people that I've, and just kind of be really social,

Michael Jamin:

Been amazing. How did you get into play? Okay, you moved here. Did you stay with a friend when you found your, how did, because I'm telling people come out. How did you do it? How did

Mackenzie Barman:

It was a pain? So I visited last August, and I stayed with one of my managers. Actually, I crashed at her place. I went a couple different places, but she's the best. I love her. And they're in the West Hollywood area, so it's really the only place I know. So that's where I am now. I'm in West Hollywood. And then I looked at a couple apartments when I was here, but I really didn't know where I was. I kind of did, but I don't really know. And then, so I just, Zillow and Trulia, and I ended up finding this apartment on Trulia, and I had a couple of friends come look at it and FaceTime me,

Michael Jamin:

And it was good enough.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was like,

Michael Jamin:

And then Did you drive here? You

Mackenzie Barman:

Flew here? I drove,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how you do it. Did your car. Wow. Now tell me, when you start posting, these are thought out, these videos you make, how much time do you spend a day making, and how many times do you post a day?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's really funny. I usually post once a day at most. I really should try to post once a day at least. It's usually every two or three days. Oh, really? Yeah. But I've been kind of busy, but it was once a day when I was doing the nursery rhymes, but I kind of got a little burned out, I think.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you do get burned out. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. But I don't write anything beforehand. I improvise everything, but I kind of write it in my head as I go, and I have a loose idea going into it of if it was a nursery rhyme or something, I would have to research and have the facts ready. I would do that research beforehand and then kind of reference it as I improvised it. But for the character stuff, it's all kind of, they kind of just take over. I take a backseat,

Michael Jamin:

But you must edit some stuff out, or no, is everything what you say goes in?

Mackenzie Barman:

Sometimes if I say something and then I'm like, even if it's improvised, I'm like, huh, you know what? I think I want to tweak that and put the intonation somewhere else, or put a micro look or an eyebrow raise kind of somewhere else. I'll redo it. But most of the time it's my first take, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

So, okay. I was going to ask you where you're editing it because you're like this, you're holding it, and you do your one line, and then you turn around and do the other line, and then

Mackenzie Barman:

I swap. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So you're not even editing it?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, because I shoot in the app, unless it's Snapchat filters, which a couple of my characters are Snapchat filters, in which case I'll film them. It used to be that if I was doing the Snapchat filters, I would just shoot one character as a monologue and then post that. But then with my Danny and Bab series, this new, these characters, I have

Michael Jamin:

The ugly babies that you post.

Mackenzie Barman:

They're adults. Okay. I just, I'll pull up his filter, shoot his line, save the video, switch the filter, do her response.

Michael Jamin:

I'm surprised you can't even remember what you just said. You know what I'm saying? With the last character just said,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's just kind of alive in that moment. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you thinking in advance, okay, this is going to do well, or this is just what I want to do today? Do you care?

Mackenzie Barman:

I do care only because I kind of have to care. I feel like it influences so much. Now your numbers and all that stuff, but I also care because I want people to like it. I want people to genuinely have a response to it that's a little deeper maybe than normal. On TikTok scrolling, which I do get a lot. I'll get people being like, wait, this is actually, so people

Michael Jamin:

Are, well, your fans really loved you. I've read some of these comments, and what surprises me is that you interact with pretty much everyone.

Mackenzie Barman:

I try. I try and they're smart. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you try?

Mackenzie Barman:

Because it, it's weird. It's like this weird, I don't really ever go to anyone's profile or whatever, but I can almost hear the comment in my head, and it almost in that brief moment feels like a conversation's actively happening. So I'm bantering with this person, or I don't know. It's just, it's fun to be engaging. And I've had people respond when I do engage and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you applied. And that to me is just so lovely.

Michael Jamin:

It is lovely, but it's so much work on your part.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, but I sit and scroll a lot. So it's like part of the package. It's like part of producing the video almost is then the engagement after. And I don't do it as much as I used to, but I do. It depends on what mood I'm in.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder though. I wonder what you're supposed to do when I started, are you supposed to, I'm not even sure when I get, my page is very different from yours. They have questions for me. They want, as opposed to you. I think they're like your fans, they just want to, and so they're

Mackenzie Barman:

Just making a commentary on it

Michael Jamin:

Or something. Well, they really like your show. They like what? You're the fans. And so I just don't know what the rules are. I don't know if you're supposed to

Mackenzie Barman:

Interact yourself. I dunno. And it depends. If somebody does leave a nasty comment or say something mean, which is oddly really rare, don't come from me guys. Don't start. But it's rare. They're pretty good, my, because some people get it bad for some reason, and I don't really get that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, go on. What do you do?

Mackenzie Barman:

Wait, I've lost my train of thought. What

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You said? Some people come after you and they're mean,

Mackenzie Barman:

And either I'll completely ignore them or I'll delete it. If it's a needle in a haystack and it's just something mean, I'll delete it. But sometimes I'll respond with sarcasm or I'll make a sarcastic response video, and then it makes it funny. So then it's like, oh, this is actually a joyful experience. But most of the time I'll just ignore them if I do get them.

Michael Jamin:

And you don't block 'em, you just ignore them?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I don't really block anybody unless they're trying to impersonate me, but

Michael Jamin:

Even, yeah. Wow. You don't even block the haters.

Mackenzie Barman:

Not usually. There's been maybe two or three.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow. I get more than you do I get more than haters than you?

Mackenzie Barman:

They don't really come for me. It's weird. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But now you're putting yourself out there. It's pretty vulnerable. I mean, it may hit, it may not. It may be funny. It may not be. I mean, was that hard at the beginning for you to do that?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I think the nursery rhyme videos did so well. Those were just one of those weird viral things where every video was getting a million plus and it was every day. It was just crazy. And now it ebbs and flows so much with TikTok. And now I have more normal numbers, I think. But I definitely do get a little anxious about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh gosh, I thought this video would do better. Or I'll post something out of my norm and then I wake up and it's done really well, and I'm like, oh, and then I'll try to do that again, and then it doesn't do as well. So it's like a flash in the pan thing.

Michael Jamin:

Do you share it as well on Instagram? I mean, what do you

Mackenzie Barman:

I do, yeah. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Immediately. Same content. You just put it up there.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you put it anywhere else?

Mackenzie Barman:

Not really. I've put a couple on YouTube. I really need to start utilizing the YouTube shorts because I think where it's at and Snapchat, I need to start utilizing more. I think they're up and coming. They're coming back. You think

Michael Jamin:

So?

Mackenzie Barman:

They're coming back? I think so.

Michael Jamin:

How many hours a day or minutes a day do you spend on this?

Mackenzie Barman:

I would say on average, I probably spend an hour on a video.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Okay. It's not nothing. It's not nothing.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. It's not nothing. But it's not like I know some people put in and you can tell some of these videos are gorgeous and the editing is, but since it's just me, it's also a lot harder for me to film outside of my hand, setting up the tripod moving and just a lot more to do. So it's just easier for me to

Michael Jamin:

Do. Do you have a list of ideas that you keep? And are you running out of ideas?

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm running out of ideas. I always think if a video, especially if a video does really well, I'm like, I'm never going to do this well ever again. But I don't usually keep a list of ideas. Sometimes I'll jot down, I have a bunch of notes, like separate note app ideas. But a lot of the times it's just, if I have the thought, I'll just record it. That's why a lot of the times I look kind of like shit in my videos a little bit, because I film them. Usually my ideas come right in the morning, and so I'll just wake up and film an idea, and then it's, before I've even brushed my teeth or anything, I'm just gross. But it's when, and I just do it.

Michael Jamin:

And you put it up. It's so interesting. I don't know. Is there a fear? Is there any fear associated? It seems like you don't have any fear at all about this.

Mackenzie Barman:

I feel like I do. I feel there's a constant anxiety of one. I have imposter syndrome pretty intensely.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And who do you think you are? Do you, you're not, is that

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't come from an industry family or any kind of connections like that. So I'm always like, who am I?

Michael Jamin:

But they have imposter syndrome too, because their mother and father was, they're famous. So I think they have bigger imposter syndrome than you do. You're

Mackenzie Barman:

Self made. I'm learning that. I'm learning everyone deals. There was a great Viola Davis interview where she talked about imposter syndrome, and it was great to hear that.

Michael Jamin:

What did she say?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just that it never goes away and that she was doing, oh gosh, what was the movie she did with Denzel Washington?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, was it Fences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Fences? Yeah. I think it was about fences. And she was talking about she was playing that part and was like, who am I to do this? It may have been that, but she was just talking about that, and I was like, that's really refreshing, because I think I look through rose colored glasses at these celebs sometimes, and I'm like, oh my God. They're so confident. But we're always seeing the best take, and we're always getting, especially as you get more involved in the industry, you start to see that it's all kind of smoke and mirrors. You just have to fake it.

Michael Jamin:

I read an article yesterday about Brian May from Queen. He said he still has some imposter syndrome, and he's Sir Brian May, and he's like, why isn't they call me, sir?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. But that there is fear there. There is that fear of the imposter syndrome of like, oh my gosh, who am I? And it's silly. It's silly. And I know that, but

Michael Jamin:

Are you monetizing TikTok or no? Yeah. You are? Yeah. In the creator fund?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. So they have the creator beta program or program beta, whatever it's called. Great. Is

Michael Jamin:

That effective use?

Mackenzie Barman:

I dunno, maybe, but I don't dunno. Interesting. It's nice because you can only monetize on content over a minute, and most of my content is over a minute, so it really was a good thing for me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You'd have to change anything.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But you have to have a personal account, not a business account. Right? Isn't

Mackenzie Barman:

That what you maybe? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Now, in your reps, as I was checking out some of your videos, you are, it's funny that they said this, but they like that you're in character. They like that you're acting. And I was curious, why don't you, or have you thought of, this is me today. I'm not going to act today. This is me. This is, I'm want to table my life. You're not doing that though.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, no. I've done a couple of videos like that. I've probably done 10 or 12, maybe 20. I don't even know how many I have on my page, but where it's me doing something. But I feel like sometimes it feels like I'm always in a bit, and I don't know if that's being an actor or if it's my own neuroses, but if I am in front of a camera, it's kind of hard for me to be just me, unless I'm doing a podcast and talking to somebody. But if it's me looking at myself on video, I'm always going to be like, ha.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Difficult for me sometimes. But I do think about that because there is a part of me that really wants to be more like, wait, okay, so here I am as a person. Get ready with me. As I tell you this story, I thought about doing more of those just because it is fun to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? But the

Mackenzie Barman:

Math is always on. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

That's more of a you thing. It's so interesting. I wonder, I was going to ask if you feel almost trapped in this persona that you are now?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yes and no. No, probably not. I don't think so. I think I play such a variety of characters on my TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Except for yourself. You play characters except

Mackenzie Barman:

For you. It's never really me. Definitely the closest one to me. And I think I'm pretty split right down the middle between the dark me and the innocent me in the nursery rhyme videos. And that dynamic is, in a lot of the videos, there's always me and me and whoever else, Chelsea or whoever. But I'm definitely split right in the middle. But if I had to lean, I would definitely lean toward the happy, bubbly me. That's probably the closest to me in any of my videos.

Michael Jamin:

But not that you should, I'm just pointing out you're not sharing anything really personal or intimate about yourself or

Mackenzie Barman:

No, no. In a weird way, I think that it's like, I don't know. There's a part of me that likes, there admires those celebs that you really don't know too much about Florence Pugh or Jennifer Lawrence. They give you glimpses into their life, their personal life. But there always is this level of mystique to them. And not that I'm trying to be mysterious, but I do think that it in the long run might serve me better as an actor to be more private than to be so human. I don't know. Well,

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting because it's also like you must know Elise Meyers, because I mean, she's big, but you're up there. I mean, you're not far behind her, and she's more, and it seems like she's doing what she wants to do, but she's more actor and she's more, I guess, personality.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah. I love Elise, and I don't know her, but I love her because she's so just herself. She might have self-doubt, whatever. I have no idea. Imposter syndrome and stuff, but she appears and she does speak on things, her iss, and she's just so honest about it. And I do love that. I don't know. I just can't do it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, you're being authentic or I

Mackenzie Barman:

Can, but yeah, I don't know. It's just tricky. There is that kind of want to keep this, but who is Mackenzie thing

Michael Jamin:

And what surprising opportunities have come from this or partnerships or relationships or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying to think. Besides auditions and stuff.

Michael Jamin:

So you've gotten direct auditions from this? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Have.

Michael Jamin:

How did that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, a lot of the times I'll go through my reps and then my reps will reach out to me, say, oh, you've been actually personally requested for this.

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal.

Mackenzie Barman:

It really is. And I've gotten some callback. I've gotten, most of the time, if I audition for projects like that, I'll get a call back and then go whatever, and then it doesn't happen or whatever for whatever reason. But it's happened, yeah, a few times. But a lot of the time too, I don't know. I really don't know how much, because I get auditions through my agents, a normal actor would. So I don't really know on the back end of it how much they're like, oh, here's her video. I don't really know.

Michael Jamin:

But do your reps try to sell you like, Hey, she's got 3 million followers on, because that would be good to help sell the show when you book it or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think that's definitely a leverage point. Working on treatments and stuff. There is work that I want to put out and produce and whatever, and I do think that helps and is a big aspect of

Michael Jamin:

It. So is that on your resume, like your follower account on your acting resume or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't dunno. Actually. It might

Michael Jamin:

Be it. Should it be right? Shouldn't it be?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think in today's world, yeah, I think it probably should. It probably is. And it probably needs to be updated, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, I think it is on there.

Michael Jamin:

One thing you don't do, I don't think you do, is sell merch.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I did one drop and I had a bad experience.

Michael Jamin:

What happened

Mackenzie Barman:

With doing it? I think my problem is I am not a salesy person. And when I was trying to sell or advertise my merch, those videos did not do well and not a of lot of eyes saw them because the people who would typically see my content, it was so out of the realm of what their algorithm would be that it didn't pop up for 'em and it just didn't do well. And I was like, you know what? And I didn't like working with, so if I think if I did, I would just do it myself.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, weren't you doing print on demand? How is it?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had worked with a merch company. I don't even remember the name of the company actually, but I had worked with a merch company and it was just a quick drop. I think typically if it's a first time, they'll do a limited drop to see how it does and then move

Michael Jamin:

On. You work with the merch company. Why don't you just go to some place that print on demand? I have five T-shirts if you want to make 'em one at a time.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was kind of near when I was kind first starting out, and it's one of those things where you kind learn as you go approached. They had reached out and they said, Hey, we think McKenzie would be great. And they'd worked with other people. I think that's how it went down, or no, no, that's not true. I think it was my idea to make merch. And then I had, they were recommended because they had worked with some other great people and were really successful. So I think it was just my particular launch didn't do.

Michael Jamin:

Didn't do well.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content and I know you do listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michae jamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about.

What about brand deals? Are you working with people with companies? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I've done some brand deals, which are so fun. I want to do more of them because they're just fun. It kind of gives me a, because a lot of the times there's no guiding light in my videos. It's just what's ever in my head. So when I have a brand to work with, it's fun. I can work around that.

Michael Jamin:

Did you hook up onto the backend of TikTok, or, I don't even know they hook you up, or no.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I think a little bit. I'm so bad. I don't really know all the business backend things of TikTok. I've seen some ads and stuff you can apply to be a part of this ad or something, but the pay is really low sometimes, or it's like a share a revenue share system, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. So these ones, they'll come through my management or my agents and be like, really? Hey, they want to work with me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have special agents, social media agents, or No, just your acting agents?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. At my agency, they have a department for everything. So I'm working with an agent there. Yeah. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So interesting.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm still learning too. It really is a business. And you'd kind of go to theater school and you're like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a business, but then you're in the world and you're like, oh, this is a business.

Michael Jamin:

Alright, so is this your primary income or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, kind of. So I do a lot of things. So I also run a video production company. You do? It's very small, but it's called Real You, and it's a demo reel production company for actors. So basically, yes, I work with actors. I was an actor who had a MISHMOSHED demo reel of all these different student films, or you just wouldn't get the footage. So it was always a hassle if you didn't have stuff to put a reel together. And so I basically sit with actors, figure out their branding, their type, whatever, and then write them scenes and then film them. But professionally, I have a real camera and all that good stuff.

Michael Jamin:

And how do they find you? These people

Mackenzie Barman:

Through my website or there's a business website and stuff. And it's funny because all of the SEO is for New York, and so I need to figure out a way to make everyone know that we're in LA now. So I do that and I do voiceover, so I do commercial and animation. Well, nothing animation yet. I audition a lot, but I'm hoping to book something soon. But a lot of commercial work and radio stuff, so I just have a lot of,

Michael Jamin:

But it seems very smart what you're doing. You're also working with, you're meeting actors, you're working with actors, you're making contacts, and you're getting paid for it out here. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Making me a better writer, a better director, a better actor, because I also edit the scenes. Each scene is about a couple minutes long, and so I know when I'm directing them and shooting it, oh, this was helpful in the editing process, or, oh, this was actually difficult.

Michael Jamin:

So it's interesting though that you write stuff for them, but you don't write for yourself. You just impro yourself.

Mackenzie Barman:

I do write some stuff. My tiktoks, I don't write for some reason. I really should maybe try to sit and write something. I think I just write backwards when I'm doing that. But when I'm writing treatments, we're working on TV stuff, then I'll sit and write if it's because a lot of the stuff that I write is for me, but it's also for other people.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like I said, I thought what you're doing was so smart because you're really showcasing your writing, you're showcasing your acting, and you're, your range, your acting range by playing all these different characters. It just seems like that's exactly what you should be doing. Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'm really trying to build a brand there. And it's nice because it kind of acts like a resume or a reel. I'm like, just go watch my tiktoks and you can see, you can see what I'm all about.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And what about the partnerships, the other actors that you're working with? Tell me a little bit about what that had led to

Mackenzie Barman:

The actors that I shoot for

Michael Jamin:

Or that you shoot with or that you collaborate with.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, man. Well, I've only collaborated with a couple people. My friend's Taylor and James, who are content creators, and they're both actors. They're amazing. They live in la. I did a video with them, and I actually shot this morning with Laura Clary. Do you know Laura Clary? She's great. She's so funny. She's like an internet queen. And so when I'm shooting with them, I love working with other people, a theater person. So it's in my soul to have tangible people with me. But most of the time I'm alone. So when I'm working with another actor, it's just the best, especially when I'm just bantering freely with them or, because Laura, for instance, she wrote a script for us, and when I clagged with Taylor and James, we kind of improvised it, had an idea of what it was going to be. It was like a curb situation. We had the bones, but Laura wrote it, and then we kind of improvised on the fly. It was great. I loved it.

Michael Jamin:

And they're pretty much want what you want. They want to get more traditional acting on TV and film.

Mackenzie Barman:

I think so, yeah. Well, I know that some of them do. Laura's already established and stuff, but my client actors, they're all either working actors who want to update their reel or want to add a very specific, they need a detective scene, or they need this specific type of scene. They'll come to me. Some of them I've become really good friends with just because I'm like, oh, I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, you've only been in LA three weeks. Are you going to get involved in the theater scene or the improv scene, or what are you going to do?

Mackenzie Barman:

So I really want to get into the comedy scene of the character shows and a little bit of standup. I'm going to kind of play on the 10th. I'm going to have a five minute set and this show. So I think I'm just going to totally improvise it and just see what happens. This is my first show. So who caress

Michael Jamin:

And where is that going to be?

Mackenzie Barman:

That is going to be, oh, I don't know where it's going to be. Actually, I don't,

Michael Jamin:

By the time this airs, it'll be too late. But I'm just curious as to,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's called One Star Review. It's like a comedy showcase.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how quickly you jumped into it, honestly, you jumped into it. I don't,

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm not doing enough. I always feel like I need to be doing, but I probably am fine.

Michael Jamin:

It's only been three weeks. Yeah, I, but it seems like, I don't know. I admire you because you're not worried about figuring out. You're just doing it. It'll fall into place. And I think a lot of people are afraid to try and to, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that I'm definitely always a little bit afraid. There's always a part of me that is like, oh my gosh, what if I run out of money? What if I don't? I don't really have anyone really to fall back on in that way, any connection. I just don't have, there's no alternative for me.

Michael Jamin:

But you didn't in New York either. I mean your family, but there are upstate New York,

Mackenzie Barman:

And it's just really tricky. And I think that there's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I'm certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. This is what I'm doing.

Michael Jamin:

When you mean do this, what do you mean? Do what?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just be an actor and be in this industry. I've always felt that way about myself, and it's weird. It's a weird just knowing, and I don't want to come off pretentious at all about it. I'm not saying, oh my God, I'm so good. It's more of just like a, no, I know this is what I have to do. It's weird.

Michael Jamin:

But I'm wondering if you, because you got a giant following. I mean, and it's weird. On TikTok, you have 3 million fans, but on any given day a hundred makes, it doesn't mean 3 million going to see your work. The algorithm is so weird. But I wonder if you have any bigger plans from this or from, what are they then, other than getting cast and having someone else? What else?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, so really, I really, truly, I think that I need to create the vehicle for myself. And I think a lot of people do that and need to do that. I don't think people just, it's rare that you're just discovered or someone's like you. I'm going to cast you. It's just so rare. And so I am definitely being proactive with writing and stuff, and I've written a pilot. I have a treatment for that pilot, and that's the clearest idea I have. I'm also writing a one woman show at the moment, like a stage show. Great. I'm in the early planning stages, early as is. I just had this idea two days ago of a monthly kind of mackenzie and Friends comedy show.

Michael Jamin:

What

Mackenzie Barman:

Kind of show? I think I want it just to be a variety show of whatever the comedians want to do.

Michael Jamin:

And it'll be a stage show.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, stage show. And I would just host it. But also, I have treatments that I'm working on for TV series and movies, and so I'm flushing those out, getting everything in order. I really, really want to pitch in 2024 and be ready for that. And I also want to write,

It's something, excuse me, that I kind of recently, I think I always have liked that part of the process, but I think in my mind, I always thought to be a writer, you have to sit down and write, there's only one way to do it, and this is how you have to do it. But I'm learning that it's just not that way. I think David Mamet, he paces and he talks out loud before he ever sits down to write. And so I did. I host a podcast that I'm bringing back in January that I had Cola Cola on, and I love them. And I was talking to them and I was saying that, oh, I'm not a writer. And they were like, no, you just do it backwards. And they write on TV shows and all that. And it really changed. They had an effect on me when they said that because it really changed.

Michael Jamin:

So what is your intention with the podcast then? You're busy. Well, the

Mackenzie Barman:

Podcast. I know, I'm trying, I'm so the podcast, it's called Bullshittery. It had one season, but I did it on TikTok Live, and I did not like that format at all. I thought it would be fun and experimental, and it just felt like a TikTok Live and not an actual podcast. So I'm doing it now in person in January, now that I'm here, and it's like an interview-based podcast, but it's very loose structure and just chatting with different people that are kind of in the industry, our comedians, and just a loy sheet of shit.

Michael Jamin:

You're going to rent a studio for that?

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm going to do it in my apartment. In

Michael Jamin:

Your apartment? Yeah. Very good. So you got to get another microphone. Is that what you're going to do? I got to

Mackenzie Barman:

Get another mic.

Michael Jamin:

And you got to edit it though.

Mackenzie Barman:

And I got to edit it. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

That's work too.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, I know. And TikTok live was easy because the sound and the video were just there. I really didn't have to edit that. But this I will, because I'm going to up the quality a little bit. I'm going to use a proper camera and do it. Do it right.

Michael Jamin:

You can need a couple cameras. You probably, you want two cameras and maybe a master. Right.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was thinking that of either doing one and just keeping it in a two shot the whole time, which some people do. But also doing the single cam on each side. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I'm open to suggestions if you have any. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. There are studios that you can go and rent it out and they'll do the whole thing, but you pay by the hour.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I, I did that once in la. It was actually a great experience. I love doing it, but I'd rather, because I don't have any sponsors yet. Once I get sponsors, then I can kind of up my,

Michael Jamin:

I think you need around 10,000 downloads to get meaningful sponsors. I think I

Mackenzie Barman:

So, I think so. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You're probably not there yet, but you will be. Don't

Mackenzie Barman:

Think. But I'm also a terrible marketer, so when I was doing the podcast before, I posted a couple of videos and I was like, this just is not me. And I need to get past that. I need to just sell my stuff, but I feel guilty.

Michael Jamin:

But I bet you people don't even know. I mean, people don't, you've got a giant following. They may not be aware of it. You don't have to market it. You say, oh, by the way, new episode tomorrow. I have

Mackenzie Barman:

Some, no, I know. I really just need to do the clips, the podcast clips.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. You'll figure it out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll figure it out. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You will. I mean, you absolutely will. And maybe you'll do characters talking about your podcast.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I do want to do that. I want to do bits. If I have someone to banter with and go into character with, I'll definitely do that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how when I moved to la, I was young. I didn't have any of this shit that you got going on. I didn't even occur. I don't know. I wasn't as extroverted and as, I don't think, as confident as you are. So yeah, you're going places.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying. I really am trying. Well, I know where I have to end up, so I know that I need to get in there.

Michael Jamin:

And when you say, and okay, you want to be on tv, you want to be, the problem is not many sitcoms anymore.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. Well, I really, I am more of a streaming series girl. My ideal dream seriously would be to be a series regular on an hour long drama, drama d kind of a show that would be like,

Michael Jamin:

Tell me what show that you absolutely love that you wish you could be part of

Mackenzie Barman:

Something,

Michael Jamin:

And it doesn't have to be on the air anymore. So

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there's a couple there, obviously. Huh? Well, I loved Big Little Lies. I love an ensemble like that. The White Lotus. If I could be on the White Lotus, that would be the, honestly, above all, that would be the show I would want to be on right now.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Succession would've been one that I would've wanted to be on. It has that snarky, realistic element to it that I love. But I also love shows like Search Party or The Comeback. I want to do a mockumentary. I want to play a version of myself. Right. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't, well, you can do a series on TikTok. Just bang something out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. You already are. You kind of already are.

Mackenzie Barman:

I kind of already am. And I do try to sprinkle in dramatic elements too sometimes. And I don't know, it's funny. I like to evoke weird reactions from people. I'm laughing, but I'm also upset. I making people feel like that.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, I think you're going to get to the point, I don't know, maybe you already are, where your reps, your agent manager, whatever, introduce new clients to you as to spring help springboard them. You really have a big platform. Has that coming? Has that happened yet?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not yet. I don't know. It's so hard now because it's so forward facing too. I feel like there are some people that just do so well with the pop culture element of being present and being up to date with pop culture, I think is so huge. And I don't really touch upon that too, too much. So there's that small aspect I think that's keeping me from going even bigger. You know what I mean?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you did a piece where you kind of made fun of Congress when they were doing the TikTok here. Yes.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'll mess around with it sometimes if I see a good opportunity and I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you think you need to be more topical?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think from what I see, and this might just be because we all have different worlds now too, which is another thing from my world, it seems like the people that do really well and that become kind of more forward facing are people who lean into pop culture and things that are really trending in that moment. And I feel like I maybe just don't do that enough. Not that it's a bad thing. It's almost intentional maybe. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you studying people wondering, are you trying to emulate other creators? Is that what you mean?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I don't think I'm trying to emulate any other creators. I honestly think my biggest influences come from people outside of TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Who are they then? Who are your influences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Like Lisa Kudrow, Tony Collette, actors,

Michael Jamin:

Amy Think, Amy Poller,

Mackenzie Barman:

Amy Poer, the classics. They're like,

Michael Jamin:

And do you think of them to get inspiration, or what do you mean when you mention them?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that's just what comes together in my brain. It is all in there, and then it just all goes away, and then something comes out from it. I don't think I'm actively thinking like, oh, I need to channel Amy Po here, or be, I think the person that I'm closest to unintentionally, but I'll notice it sometimes, is Lisa Kudrow. I think I just love her so much and her isms that I feel like I might imitate her more than I even realized. Watch videos sometimes I'll be like, that was very Lisa cre. I'm like, that moment. But I think I'm developing my unique voice that's a blend of all these people.

Michael Jamin:

That's the step. And then I was going to say, how do you use art to influence what you do if you do? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

How do I use art to influence?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. I guess what I'm asking is where are you drawing inspiration from? Who would you love to be? And maybe it's Lisa Kra. I know your version of them, but whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't really know. I feel like I always have the thought in my brain that I, I'm very conscious about what I'm putting out. Is this too silly that it's dumb? Or is it too serious that I feel like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what really influences my

Michael Jamin:

Well, are there videos then that you don't put out? I mean, you shoot and you're like, eh, I'm not putting this up.

Mackenzie Barman:

Rarely. Most of those are the silly tiktoks of if I see a viral sound or something and I'll just do it, but I won't post it, I'll just do it. I dunno. It feels weird. It feels like I'm breaking some rule with myself to go outside of, and it might be this snobbish thing that I'm doing. It might be like, oh, I need to be this character actor person. And then if I break out of that and I'm just like a real girly girl, I don't know, maybe. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, but that's interesting. I feel there are certain trends and there's certain challenges you could do, and I don't partake in any of that shit. I feel like I'm too old for it, but I also feel like that's just not my brand. I'm not going to do any of that. And I wonder if you feel the same way.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll watch them and I'll enjoy them. Even sometimes I'll do them and I'll record them, and then I've posted a couple some, but most of the time it just feels weird to do it. I feel like I'm like, again, maybe that's that imposter syndrome creeping. I'm like, nobody wants to see me do this. Nobody wants to hear me talk about this or,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but then, and you might be right, the thing is, you might be right. You might try that. And if you get almost, I dunno, whatever, a low view count, then you're like, I guess they didn't want to hear it then. And it may just be random.

Mackenzie Barman:

And then you're in your head like, oh my gosh, if I'm my real self and they don't like it, right? Oh my God, they don't like me, do I? And I think maybe that's part of it too. It's like I am confident when I'm acting because it's not me anymore. It's like it's somebody else. Their fear is gone really of like, well, if you don't like it, it's not me. You don't like, it's them you don't like. But when it's just me being myself, I'm questioning my humor. I'm questioning my relatability. I'm questioning my, am I girly enough? Am I quirky? It's too many thoughts.

Michael Jamin:

No, I get that. I mean, on the occasions that I'm funny in my video, I'm like, this better be funny. This guy says he's a comedy writer. What's going to throw shade at me? And they'll be, right.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. But I admire that. And it seems silly when I'm talking about it, it seems like just be yourself. I know people love me, but I don't know. It just feels weird. But I admire so much, and I watch all the videos of people who are just like, story time. I'm going to tell you this time. And I love that. I don't know. I just feel like if I do it, I'll record it and watch it. I'll be like, the story is dumb. Or I don't know, a lot of self-doubt, but it's weird. It's like I can have self-doubt here, but then I'm like, no, this is amazing. Somewhere else.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. And is there any thought, I guess there isn't because you kind of improv this, but I'm always thinking, I better get too, because people got that thumb on and they can scroll so fast. Do you give any thought to that? How fast you're going to get this thing moving? How fast you're going to get to the good part?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Because I think sometimes the music helps if people, that's why I always will use sinister music, because people immediately are like, oh, what's going on here? And I think that will compensate for me taking my beats and taking my sweet time with it. Because at the end of the day too, I love storytelling and I love of keeping people engaged with something. So I kind of let the music do that part. But I do think about that, oh, I should really get to it quickly within the first 10, 15 seconds at least. But even then, it's too late.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. I don't know how we're supposed to handle any of this, but again, I guess I want to get back to you before I get to let you go, before you respond. The relationships that you've formed, I guess they are your fans and you correspond with them, whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

And a couple have become friends, a couple of Really, yeah. There's a couple people that I've just messaged and just vibed with you just kind of, most of the time it's like nothing. But do

Michael Jamin:

They reach out to you first? Or how does that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there have been a couple people that I noticed will comment a lot, and then I'll kind of randomly respond to dms on Instagram. I respond to a lot of dms, honestly. But then sometimes if there's just, you just know energetically. If they're kind of odd or they're kind of pushy or they say something weird, then I'm like, okay, bye. But sometimes they'll be kind of funny and kind of like bantering. I'm like, huh, okay. There's a girl, Faye, I love her. Shout out Faye. She's from Ireland. And I love people that are not from the United States, too. If you're from England or Ireland or somewhere, I'm going to love you automatically. But she's from Ireland, and we were kind of joking about her teaching me an Irish accent, whatever. So we were like voice memoing back and forth. And then she's the one who now Photoshops my Danny and Babs photos. She's just amazing at it. And she's like, I'll just do it. Don't worry about it. I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that nice? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Love her. I love her. Wow.

Michael Jamin:

It's such an interesting, I don't know, community, and I wonder how big this thing is. I wonder how many creators. There's a small circle that I seem to be in, and I'm like, is this everybody? Or am I missing about 10 billion of us?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think it's both because I feel like it's a small world. Most of the time, the people I know, the other people that I know and influencers are comedic content creators. But then there will be somebody with 12 million followers who I've never seen or heard of before, and I'm like, I did not know you even existed, but you're so famous on the internet. And I'm like, I've never seen you. So it's weird.

Michael Jamin:

And you reach out to them, or No, you just follow them or

Mackenzie Barman:

Something. Oh, no, I'll just hear about it. Or I'll see a random person pop up on TikTok and go to their profile and they have 12 million. And I'm like, I have never seen you before. It's just odd. It's such

Michael Jamin:

An odd thing. There's this woman that I follow, and maybe you've heard of her. She's digging a ton under her house, but

Mackenzie Barman:

I want to be on that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know where she lives, but she has a house and she's literally digging. She has a lab coat, and she's pouring concrete and she's digging, and it's just her passion. But I don't know if she's a, I don't think

Mackenzie Barman:

She is that legal. Can you do that?

Michael Jamin:

Right. And she's not really, I don't think she's a certified structural engineer, but she has all these books and she's reading them. She's like, and this is how I learned how to do the electricity. It's like, oh my God, I just had to read this book. And so she's like a mad scientist. And then she was picked up on Yahoo. Yahoo did an article about her, and then I DMed her. Look at, you're on Yahoo now.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh my gosh.

Michael Jamin:

There's just so many interesting people doing interesting things. I'm like, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I know. I'm deep on some tiktoks. I love conspiracy talk. I love it. I don't buy into it, but I love it.

Michael Jamin:

But see, I don't want to, don't think you want to get too far. You don't want to.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know.

Michael Jamin:

I know. You can keep them from a distance, but you don't want to,

Mackenzie Barman:

You start to tread a line where you're like, wait a minute, this is suddenly not where I want to be. That happens.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Wow. Mackenzie, thank you so much for joining me. What an interesting, again, I have such admiration for what you do and I'm a fan, and there it is. Yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I mean, you too. I mean, we got to talk shop too at some

Michael Jamin:

Point. Well, when we finish this, we will do that, but I want to make sure everyone knows where to find you. So tell everyone what all your handles are.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, follow me guys. I'm at Mackenzie Barman everywhere. So I'm

Michael Jamin:

Everywhere

Mackenzie Barman:

At Mackenzie Barman. I'm mostly on TikTok and Instagram. But follow me on YouTube too, because I'll be there and Snapchat

Michael Jamin:

Can find me. I dunno anything about Snap, but alright. Thank you again and don't go anywhere. I'll sign off. I won't. Alright, everyone, another great talk. Be like her. Go follow her. Just put yourself out there and then work on it and you'll get better and better. Okay, everyone, until next week, keep creating.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

I've heard time and time again that TV Writers and Hollywood have an agenda. In my 26 years of TV writing and showrunning experience, I don't agree.

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"To make it in Hollywood you have to sell your soul." A lot of people seem to think Hollywood is full of people looking to get ahead by throwing the next person under the bus. This week we discuss the topic of selling one's soul and not in the cool fun branded water kind of way.

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How does one direct voice-over talent? In this episode, Michael & Phil discuss the difference between traditional live-action directing and voice-over directing which is typically done in animation.

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Learn about Michael's new labor of love and a live performance based on writing in his new book coming to LA and other cities in the USA.

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Ever wonder what it's like to run a TV Show? In this episode, Michael and Phil discuss the nuances of being a TV Showrunner.

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In today's special episode, Phil Hudson is the show's star as we discuss his first real experience in the writer's room. The writer's assistant on Tacoma FD was out for a week, and Phil, our Writer's PA, filled in. If you've ever wanted to know what the job of a TV Writer's Assistant or Writer's Production Assistant is, this episode is for you.

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Another round of Q&A with Michael Jamin. To get your questions answered, follow Michael on Instagram and leave your question on the Q&A Tile when it is posted.

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