Our story begins in the halls of the University of Iowa, go Hawks! It was there that two seemingly different paths intersected and a friendship blossomed. Despite our different upbringings—Jolene in little Pleasantville, Iowa, and me, Nicole, just across the Golden Gate Bridge in the bustling Bay Area—we became fast friends. And here we are, almost 40 years later, living in a world that often seems intent on drawing lines in the sand and choosing sides.
So why "We've Got To Talk"? Because we truly believe that in this deeply divided society, the power of conversation can unite us. Our goal isn't to change each other's opinions, but to listen with curiosity, kindness, and empathy. And yes, to have a good time while doing it!
We invite you to join us on this journey and bring your friends along. We might not have all the answers or any of them—but we promise honesty, empathy, and a lot of heart. We hope our conversations give you a fresh outlook or at least entertain you as you go about your day.
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We Spend More on Interest Than Defense: We’re In A Debt Crisis | Marc Goldwein
Episode 88
Wednesday, October 14, 2026 • Duration 01:00:18
Jolene and I have been trying to work out whether the US is actually in a financial emergency, or whether we’re just stuck in the usual loop of scary headlines, charts, and people yelling on cable news. Because after a while you either spiral or you go numb, and neither one helps you understand what’s real. So we spoke to economist Marc Goldwein, and instead of drama, he gave us the calm, numbers-based version, which was somehow more unsettling.
Marc’s view is blunt: the US is in the worst financial shape it’s ever been in, at least in the ways that matter for what comes next. He points to 10-year and 30-year Treasury yields being the highest since the early 2000s, which matters because higher interest rates plus massive national debt means the cost of servicing that debt starts eating everything else. It’s like carrying a credit card balance you can’t pay down, then watching the interest rate jump while you try to keep living your life as normal.
The part that really lands is this: US interest payments now exceed national defense spending. That’s not a talking point, it’s a budget reality, and it changes what the government can afford to do. Marc also explains that while the national debt is close to its World War II level, the interest burden is worse, with interest as a share of the economy roughly doubling. So even if the debt number feels historically familiar, the pressure it creates today is not.
Then we get to the obvious question: if it’s this bad, why aren’t we fixing it? Marc’s answer is basically incentives. Politicians get rewarded for cutting taxes and handing out benefits, and punished for asking people to pay more or accept less. Add in the time-horizon problem, where leaders focus on the next election instead of the next decade, and you get a system that keeps kicking the can until it turns into a wrecking ball. The takeaway is uncomfortable but simple: this isn’t only a politician problem, it’s also a voter problem, and if we don’t face it now, we’re handing future generations a country where more and more money goes to interest and less goes to anything that actually makes life better.
Tribalism Is Destroying American Politics | Lura Forcum
Episode 87
Wednesday, October 7, 2026 • Duration 58:26
Most of us don’t want “our side” to win. We want the country to work, with less chaos, less political theater, and fewer people getting rich off outrage while nothing gets fixed. We’re joined by Lura Forcum, a consumer and social psychologist who studies the human dynamics underneath politics, identity, belonging, and why we get so weird around people who disagree with us.
Lura breaks down why “tribalism” isn’t just a buzzword. It’s the system underneath the system, and the real danger isn’t bickering; it’s dehumanization. Once the other side feels like an existential threat, we stop having policy conversations and start living in a survival story, and you can’t govern well from that place.
We also talk about competitive politics versus tribal politics, and why purity tests on both sides reward warriors instead of statesmen. Lura explains how parties stop listening to voters and start dictating terms, and why policy so often gets made without talking to the people who actually live under it.
If you’re disillusioned, tired, or waiting for the perfect candidate, Lura’s message is simple: vote anyway. Vote as an independent thinker, show up for primaries, and reward decency and public service over performative outrage. Her final assignment is surprisingly wholesome and honestly needed right now: have a potluck, break bread, and rebuild community face to face.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
04:15 Tribal vs Competitive Politics
07:44 Warriors and Purity Tests
15:29 Rebuilding Civic Culture
18:15 Entitlement Reform Reality Check
22:11 Why Parties Ignore Voters
26:41 Independents and Real Competition
35:46 Why Primaries Matter
38:53 Decency Over Policy Purity
44:03 Social Media and Tribal Rage
48:05 Potluck as Civic Medicine
"Bridgers vs. Dividers: The Report Card That Could Change the Midterms "
Episode 86
Wednesday, September 30, 2026 • Duration 49:09
Most of us don’t actually want “our side” to win. We want the country to work, with less chaos, less political theatre, and fewer people getting rich off outrage while nothing gets fixed.
This week we welcomed Brad Porteus from Bridge Grades back onto the podcast, and his idea is refreshingly simple. Bridge Grades is a congressional report card that doesn’t measure ideology, it measures collaboration. It uses nonpartisan, third-party data to score how lawmakers govern, so you can get a clearer read on who builds across the aisle and who fuels division.
What hit us most is how much this challenges the way we’re trained to vote. Most people don’t vote based on effectiveness; they vote based on identity, fear, habit, or revenge, and if you’re deeply loyal to a party, a report card probably won’t change your mind. The bigger opportunity is everyone else, especially the exhausted middle and the millions of eligible Americans who didn’t vote last election because they don’t trust anyone and don’t see the point.
If you’re curious, use Bridge Grades as a second lens before the next election. Look up your lawmakers, notice what happens in your own head when you see a grade you didn’t expect, and ask what we’re rewarding as a culture. Because if we keep voting like it’s a tribal loyalty test, we’re going to keep getting tribal outcomes, and we’ll all keep sitting here wondering why nothing works.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:21 Meet Brad and Bridge Grades
01:49 How the Scoring Works
07:29 Legislative Metrics Explained
11:22 Gaming the Bipartisan Score
13:47 Performative Bridging Debate
17:37 Exhausted Middle and Independents
20:29 Bridgers at Risk in Swing Seats
28:26 Roasting Government Dysfunction
31:41 Texas Race Trust Issues
What If We Replaced Politicians With Regular People Picked by Lottery?
Episode 85
Wednesday, September 23, 2026 • Duration 39:46
We’ve lost a lot of trust in politicians in America, and it’s not hard to see why. Politics feels like a permanent campaign where leaders are performing, fundraising, and protecting their careers while the real problems keep getting worse.
Our guest is Adam Cronkright, creator of the film Goodbye Politicians Hello Democracy, which explores a bold alternative to the current political system. Adam’s idea is simple but disruptive: replace career politicians with ordinary citizens selected by lottery, supported with experts and staff, and asked to make decisions on behalf of their communities. It’s a conversation about democratic lotteries, citizen assemblies, and what “government by the people” could actually mean in practice.
We talk about why elections often produce a political class instead of real representation, and how incentives like party loyalty, media attention, and fundraising have turned politics into theatre. Adam shares what happened when 30 regular people in Michigan were selected during 2020 to work through pandemic decisions together, and why good faith disagreement becomes possible when nobody is angling for re-election or scoring points for social media.
If you’re tired of political polarisation, the two-party system, and the feeling that you’re just a spectator in your own democracy, this episode offers a hopeful, practical reframe. It’s about accountability, trust, civic participation, and whether citizens could govern more effectively than professional politicians.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:22 Meet Adam Cronkright
05:19 Why Make This Film
07:18 Democratic Lottery Explained
09:17 How Selection Works
14:07 Where Democracy Goes Next
18:10 A Post Party System
22:25 Pushback and Corruption
How to Talk to “The Enemy” with Larry Rosen
Episode 84
Wednesday, September 16, 2026 • Duration 57:20
Politics can feel like a loyalty test now. Like you are either on the right team, or you are a threat. In this conversation with Larry Rosen, attorney turned mediator and host of The Enemies Project YouTube docuseries, we talk about what happens when people stop seeing each other as humans and start treating politics like a team sport.
Larry’s work sits right in the middle of the biggest problems in political polarization and social division: we assume intention, we fill in the blanks with the worst story, and we turn disagreement into moral war. We unpack why conflict is rarely just about the surface issue, how “enemy making” works, and why curiosity feels like betrayal when the nervous system is in threat mode.
We also get into Larry’s approach to depolarization and conflict resolution, including rapport-building, extreme perspective taking, and the moment that changes everything: helping people understand what the other person is trying to protect. It is not about forcing agreement. It is about making it harder to keep the other side as a cartoon, and easier to have hard conversations without dehumanising each other.
If you care about bridging the political divide, civil discourse, and how to talk to people you disagree with without damaging your relationships beyond repair, this one will land. It is a reminder that healing is not soft, and it is not naive; it is one of the only paths out of the loop we are stuck in.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:22 Meet Larry Rosen
02:50 From Lawyer to Mediator
05:43 Why Enemies Project Started
12:20 Enemies Project Format
15:49 Extreme Perspective Taking
19:37 Healthy Conflict Zone
23:33 Platforming and Safety
30:38 Casting Real Enemies
34:29 Why Activists Fight
Liberal and Conservative: 5 Questions We've Always Wanted to Ask
Episode 83
Wednesday, September 9, 2026 • Duration 53:44
We are back in the Ozarks for our second annual in-person recording at Jolene’s house, and we decided to ask each other a handful of questions we have thought about asking, but never have.
We start with something deceptively simple: why Jolene hides how funny (and sometimes crass) she is on the podcast. It turns into a bigger conversation about authenticity, self-censoring, and how exhausting it is to try to be inoffensive all the time. In a culture where politics feels performative and everyone is bracing for outrage, being real can feel risky, but it is also what makes people relatable.
From there we get into the harder stuff: what Nicole struggles to defend about the Democratic Party, and what Republican beliefs she actually agrees with. We talk about political extremes, the national debt, homelessness, cost of living, and why so many people can “smell” consultant language and talking points a mile away. It is less about scoring points and more about thinking clearly, even when your own side is messy.
If you are tired of political polarization, tribalism, and the feeling that every conversation is a loyalty test, this episode is a reminder that there is another way through, and it starts with staying human long enough to listen.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:35 Five Questions Challenge
01:07 Why Not More Humor
05:44 Democrats Hard To Defend
11:13 Holding Back On Air
15:35 Common Ground With GOP
17:27 Questioning Beliefs ALICE
25:13 Three Laws As President
26:47 Voter ID Accountability
27:14 Reining In Executive Orders
28:26 Stocks PACs and Lobbyists
30:27 Why AI Feels Dangerous
Liberal and Conservative Compare: Fox News vs MSNOW
Episode 82
Wednesday, September 2, 2026 • Duration 35:58
A year and a half ago, when we started our podcast, Jolene and I had an uncomfortable realization. We weren’t just “watching the news”; we were watching news that already agreed with us. Jolene had her conservative media, I had my liberal media, and even when we landed on the same basic facts, the emotional tone was completely different depending on what we’d been consuming. Same country, same week, two totally different versions of reality shaped by cable news and political commentary.
So we cleaned up our media diet and started looking for sources that show more than one angle, like Ground News, Tangle, Mo News, 1440, and Straight Arrow News. We wanted to be less easily manipulated by algorithms and outrage, and better able to have civil conversations across political differences. If you’ve been searching for “balanced news sources,” “media bias chart,” or “how to avoid political echo chambers,” this is exactly the road we started walking.
Then my husband Josh, suggested a new experiment: a full week of Fox News and MSNOW (full immersion, no cherry-picked clips). I know it’s a shock to hear this, but it did not make us smarter. It made us anxious. Both networks seemed to run the same play, just with different villains: keep you slightly scared, slightly angry, and just certain enough that you don’t go looking elsewhere. It wasn’t “here’s what happened,” it was “here’s what happened, here’s who to blame, and here’s why you should be worried.”
What really stung is how normal it feels when you’re in it daily. It feels like being responsible, like staying informed, like doing your civic duty. But after a week, we could see the pattern clearly: less clarity, more defensiveness, more judgement, and more confidence about things we hadn’t actually researched. We talk about how 24-hour news cycles turn commentary into the product, why outrage is profitable, and what to do instead, including tools like Ad Fontes Media, reading across sources, and the simplest antidote of all: get back into real life, talk to actual humans, and take action in your community instead of marinating in rage.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
Will Social Security run out in 2032?
Episode 81
Wednesday, August 26, 2026 • Duration 53:50
They’re saying Social Security could run out by 2032, and that timeline is close enough to feel real. We talk through what that warning actually means for everyday Americans, especially if you’ve got parents, grandparents, a spouse, or a future self who’s been assuming this safety net will be there. This isn’t a “someday” problem. It’s a real deadline that’s already shaping what comes next.
We also clear up the most common question people ask: “Is Social Security really going to run out?” The program doesn’t just vanish overnight, but the money set aside to pay full benefits is projected to fall short, and if Congress does nothing, automatic benefit cuts become the default. That’s why this matters beyond politics, because Social Security is a monthly lifeline for millions of people, not a talking point.
A lot of people forget Social Security isn’t only about retirement. It covers disability benefits, survivor benefits, and the kind of support that keeps families afloat after a death, an accident, or a diagnosis. We talk about why the silence around Social Security is so dangerous, and why it keeps getting pushed aside even though it affects real lives, real bills, and real dignity.
Finally, we get into the frustrating part: there’s actually bipartisan agreement that something needs to be done, but the incentives reward delay. We walk through the kinds of solutions lawmakers keep circling, like raising the payroll tax cap, changing payroll taxes, adjusting benefits for higher earners, raising the retirement age and why every option comes with trade-offs.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:46 Why Social Security Now
03:17 What Social Security Covers
04:27 Fixes Taxes Benefits Age
08:57 Congress Performance Problem
11:08 The Payroll Tax Cap
12:55 Big Beautiful Bill Impact
How Future Caucus Gets Republicans and Democrats to Work Together
Episode 80
Wednesday, August 19, 2026 • Duration 01:04:02
We walked away from our conversation with Layla Zaidane feeling something we don’t always feel after talking about politics: hope. Layla is the President and CEO of Future Caucus, and her whole approach is built around a simple idea that changes everything. If young lawmakers across party lines can know each other as people first, the work changes. The temperature drops, the incentives shift, and bipartisan cooperation stops feeling like a miracle and starts feeling like a skill.
Layla also shared the personal story behind why she does this work, from her family’s journey from Morocco to growing up in the shadow of 9/11 and the identity questions that followed. Listening to her, it’s easy to understand how someone ends up committed to diplomacy, civic leadership, and bridging divides. She’s not chasing a shiny version of politics. She’s trying to build a more human one, and that matters in a time when political polarisation is treated like entertainment.
We talked about Future Summit, which is basically a mid-year reset for state legislators who are tired, stretched thin, and trying to keep going. There are real policy wins and serious conversations, but there’s also joy and connection because trust doesn’t grow in a vacuum. If you can’t laugh together, you’re not going to legislate together, and Future Caucus seems to understand that relationships are not a side quest. They are the work.
We also got into the hard realities facing young people in politics, like the cost of running for office, low pay, burnout, threats, and rising political violence. Layla was blunt about what it will take to keep good people in public service: structural support, better compensation, stronger staffing, and systems that make the job sustainable. If you’ve been searching for how to reduce political division, how to rebuild trust in democracy, or how to have civil political conversations across party lines, this one is a hopeful reminder that better models exist, and they’re already being built.
CHAPTER MARKERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:21 Meet Layla Zaidane
01:13 Roots and 9/11
03:28 From Recession to Politics
The problem with my political party is.....
Episode 79
Wednesday, August 12, 2026 • Duration 36:38
Accountability and common ground shouldn’t feel like rare collectibles in American politics, but lately that’s exactly what they are. In this episode, we ask the question a lot of exhausted Americans are asking right now: what is wrong with our political parties?
We talk honestly about feeling a bit party-less, even while coming from different political leanings. Jolene is worn down by what Trump is doing and what parts of the Republican Party keep excusing, while Nicole is frustrated by the idea that the only path forward for Democrats is to become a far-left mirror image of the same chaos. The bigger point is how both sides can get trapped in a reactive loop where tribalism, outrage, and constant escalation are rewarded, and reasonable people are treated like they’re naive.
From there, the conversation shifts to what most people actually want: safety, stability, and a government that doesn’t feel like a reality show. We dig into the “exhausted majority”, the people who aren’t screaming online all day and would love to see something almost radical in 2026: bipartisan cooperation and cross-party collaboration. They also get into why Congress feels broken, why executive orders keep whiplashing the country, and why durable laws require compromise, even when it’s uncomfortable.
We also chat about the “America First” debate and why that phrase hits differently depending on who’s saying it. We then discuss why decency needs to be the way forward. Character matters, truth matters, and party loyalty shouldn’t be a free pass. If you’re tired of political chaos, culture war theatre, and leaders who perform for the loudest edges, this episode is a grounded conversation about voting (especially in primaries), rewarding adults in the room, and remembering that labels are meant to describe us, not trap us.
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