Explore every episode of the podcast Were We Lucky, or Were We Good?

What happens when a seemingly benign activity, one that has been done many times before, drifts into riskier terrain than usual? And how do some decisions and factors that occurred earlier on the program amplify the impact of this unexpected event?

Join outdoor risk consultant and author Deb Ajango, who shares the story of an incident she was brought in to review with a school that experienced a snow shelter (quinzhee) collapse on some of their participants.

What role did luck and other factors play in this unfortunate event?

In this episode, Norm Eckman shares his evolution in outdoor education, emphasizing the importance of focusing on what instructors can control—structure, presence, supervision, and involvement—to evaluate course success and prevent burnout. The discussion explores safety models, organizational learning, and the continuous pursuit of improvement in outdoor programs.

See other episodes and share your story at www.luckyorgoodpodcast.com

Guest: Tamara Walker

A climber's terrifying solo climb down steep ice, and what she learned from this experience.

Discover a deeply personal story of mountain climbing that explores the interplay of luck, skill, and psychological resilience.

This episode offers valuable insights into managing fear, decision-making under pressure, and how past experiences shape our responses in high-stakes environments.

Was she lucky, or was she good?

Episode 8 - The Costs, and Gifts, of Outdoor Incidents (Tracy Rekart)

Guest: Tracy Rekart

Tracy Rekart shares a powerful story of a climbing incident, lessons learned about risk, communication, and resilience. This episode explores how to handle failure, recognize biases, and pursue recovery after a critical incident occurs. Her story is filled with insights, clarity, courage, and vulnerability, all of which provide useful takeaways for outdoor & experiential educators.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

01:12 Tracy's Climbing Incident: A Personal Story

09:00 Reflections on the Incident and Lessons Learned

12:55 Communication and Safety in Outdoor Education

17:09 The Aftermath: Recovery and Relationship Growth

19:39 A Dream of Healing

20:28 Finding a New Home and Life Choices

21:45 The Importance of Presence in Recovery

23:25 Learning from Vulnerability and Holding Space

24:43 Cognitive Biases in Outdoor Education

27:24 The Substitution Effect in Decision Making

30:26 FailSafe vs. Fail Safely

31:48 Excavating for Risks and Final Thoughts

Learn more about Tracy and her work at https://www.tracyrekart.com/

Welcome to our first mini-episode, live from the lighthouse at Mukilteo, Washington State!

In this brief conversation, Matt Baker-White, an early adopter of our "Lucky or Good" approach, explains the difference between focusing on outcomes versus focusing on effective processes in his work at the Wild Rockies Field Institute.

How Vulnerability and Listening to Weak Signals Can Save Lives: A Conversation with Gareth Lock 

In this episode, Gareth Lock (from the Human Diver) shares a powerful personal story about a near-fatal cardiac event and explores how vulnerability, systems thinking, and recognizing weak signals can improve safety in outdoor and diving environments.

Key Topics:

• Gareth’s personal experience with a critical cardiac event and key lessons learned
• The importance of listening to weak signals and small cues in safety management
• How vulnerability models foster a safety culture that encourages speaking up
• The concept of local rationality and understanding decision-making in context
• Contrasting linear risk analysis with holistic systems thinking approaches
• The benefits of framing risk positively: beneficial risks and growth opportunities
• Fail-safe design principles: creating resilient systems that recover gracefully
• The role of cognitive biases like hindsight bias and ways to counteract them
• Applying safety science concepts to outdoor education and adventure activities
• The significance of language and shared vocabulary in safety conversations

Resources & Links:

• Gareth Lock - The Human Diver

In the world of adaptive outdoor education, the balance between safety and adventure is tenuous. One common challenge that many organizations face is the fear of failure among staff, especially in high-consequence situations. In this post, we’ll explore insights shared by Jaime Overmeyer of the Breckenridge Outdoor Education Center on how to transform the stigma of failure into a powerful tool for growth, confidence, and innovation. By creating a balance between clear policies with trust and flexibility for innovation, Jaime describes how she has built an organizational mindset of "failing forward" on the pathway of continuous improvement.

SUMMARY 

This episode explores the impact of climate change on outdoor and experiential education, emphasizing proactive risk management and organizational resilience. Guest Shana Tarter shares insights on adapting to climate threats, rethinking risk assessment, and implementing strategic planning to proactively manage risk and promote mission continuity.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

01:36 The Opportunity to Be Good Rather than Lucky

02:17 Impact of Climate Change on Outdoor Programs

04:24 The Dichotomy of Luck and Good

05:43 Recognizing Slow-Moving Threats

07:41 Lessons from COVID-19 for Climate Adaptation

08:48 Mental Models and Sunk Cost Bias

10:24 Incentives for Change in Risk Management

12:59 Evolving Risk Assessment Models

14:30 Dynamic Risk Assessment in Climate Change

18:22 Collaboration in Decision-Making

20:12 Navigating the Yellow Zone of Risk

21:04 Proactive Approaches to Risk Management

23:56 Operational Resilience and Planning

26:04 Informed Consent and Communication

27:54 Moving from Lucky to Good

28:19 Final Thoughts and Action Steps

RESOURCES

Wilderness Climate Action Group - https://www.linkedin.com/groups/12345678/

Journal Article:  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epub/10.1177/10806032241296526

 What were the factors that set them up to fail, and what were the good habits and practices that helped to mitigate the impact? 

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Join us for a curious, humble examination of the lessons learned from this incident - and how we might apply these lessons in other aspects of our lives and outdoor adventures.  

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Were they lucky, or were they good?  

Key Topics

• Dan’s personal avalanche accident story and the sequence of events
• How terrain configuration and wind slabs contributed to the avalanche
• The importance of probabilistic hazard assessment and recognizing changing conditions
• The role of heuristics such as social proof, confirmation bias, and familiarity in decision-making
• Group dynamics and the influence of expert familiarity on safety judgments
• Strategies for building safety routines: intentional checkpoints and debriefing
• The value of modeling vulnerability and honest communication in safety culture
• The shift in avalanche education from terrain to decision-making and group psychology
• Concepts of fail safe vs. fail safe design in outdoor risk management
• Continuous learning and promoting a culture of sharing near misses and mistakes

• The North American Avalanche Danger Scale
• ICSP Conference (International Snow Science Workshop)
• Ian McCammon and Sarah Boilen's work on field debriefs
• Canadian Avalanche Association Curriculum
• Heuristics and Decision Making in the Context of Avalanche Safety