Kevin Judge is the CEO and Founder of iNOBL, a strategic business advisory firm with a global reach.

A best-selling author, international speaker, and strategic business advisor, Kevin leads a team of professionals that senior leaders trust, to turn strategy into sustainable success.

Join us for an insightful conversation on how to go from chaos to clarity, to best guide organizations to harness their potential, and excel beyond expectations!

Stay in Touch with Kevin:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinjudge/

https://www.instagram.com/kevinrjudge/

For more on Kevin and his services:

https://inobl.com/

Script:

When you're in a moment, one, have that sense of curiosity for yourself, but also if there's somebody that is coachable around you to say, hey, hold on a second, I hear you, you're concerned about ABC. What would happen if you were to stop and think of this in this different way?

Mm-hmm. What other possibilities could there be? Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today.

My name is Erin Patchell, of course, your lovely host. And I'm here today with Kevin Judge. Say hello, Kevin. Hello, Kevin. No, hello, everybody. Nice to be here. It's great for you to be here, Kevin. Okay, so for those who don't know Kevin yet, Kevin is the CEO and founder of iKnowBull, a strategic business advisory firm with a global reach. Kevin leads a team of professionals that senior leaders can trust to turn strategy into sustainable success. He's also a best-selling author, international speaker, and strategic business advisor.

Welcome, welcome.

 Thanks very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

All right. So what are we talking about today, Kevin? Just give me broad strokes. 

Well, you know, one thing that's caught my attention recently was how crazy our brains are in making up stories about what's going on in our worlds, whether it be driving down the road and somebody cuts you off or the way a coworker responds to an email or the way your boss treats you. Like all of these things, our brains tell us stories and that can get us in a lot of trouble. So what is interesting for me right now is how can we have a little bit more of a view of curiosity to solve some of the problems that don't need to be problems in our lives?

And of course, if you want to tie that to strategy and execution, it's about getting away from conflict and better communication and that type of thing to help make the world go around a lot better. Yeah, that'd be nice. There are a few existential crises in the world at this time. So I think I use that word almost every single podcast right now is like existential crises. And it's not surprising that people are trying to find ways to both like predict, analyze, compartmentalize, and like, just, you know, try to like kind of survive through, you know, what's going on today at a micro and macro level.

So, you know, humans be humans, right? Well, exactly. And whatever's going on around us, like if you think, And whatever's going on around us, if you think, probably heard this example before where a caveman sees a saber-toothed tiger and they go into fight or flight mode and it's all about survival. Well, first of all, we wear more clothes nowadays, but also, well, many of us do. Some of us. Yes, right. But also, we don't have saber-toothed tigers coming at us. But on a day-to-day basis, our brains don't know the difference between the perceived physical threat of a saber-toothed tiger and a perceived psychological threat. So let me take it into a work environment.

You walk into a meeting room that you're expecting to have a meeting with your boss, and HR is there. Oh my gosh, Right. So perceived psychological threat of why is HR here? I'm going to get fired. And if I get fired, everybody's going to look at me and be ashamed of me. My family's going to leave me. I'm going to lose my house. I'm going to end up on the street and I'm going to starve to death and die. I'm going to end up on the street and I'm going to starve to death and die. Now, I know that sounds ridiculous, but that can be where our brain goes very, very quickly when it's not necessarily the fact. Right.

Well, I think you've given us an amazing intro to the topic. Let's come up for air. And I just want to ask you first, the first like real question, the most important question, what makes you a weirdo? What makes me a weirdo? When you asked me that the first time I was like, well, I don't know. Am I really that weird?

But I'm going to focus in on, it's taken a lot of work for me to not appear as weird as maybe as I, as I was many years let your freak flag fly that's there you go I have a very strong sense of right and wrong and in my younger years there was no gray area like it's either right or wrong the rules are rule you follow it or you don't follow it etc uh and that led to me having super high expectations for myself as well as super high expectations of other people. And I think in my terms, what makes me weird is I really struggled to understand, well, how is it that people are not as serious about these things as I am?

And how can they be comfortable with the lack of performance and, and just getting by and not really caring, et cetera. And so it took a lot of work for me to understand people and how they, how they actually think and process and that not everybody's like me. And thank God they're great. Like the last thing that people need is another me uh and thank god very great like the last thing people need is another me like we we need everybody to be who they are i mean not to like go down a huge rabbit hole here but i'm very i'm kind of curious like if you've ever detangled like why you were so motivated like what was it in your dna or in your upbringing or whatever that like drove you in that way that that is interesting that could be an interesting conversation yes yes uh should we get the virtual couch out no it's not my not my thing but yeah um you know what i'm not 100 sure because when i when i look at i have two brothers and i look at them and we're fairly different uh than than each other um but also similar in some ways but my father was in the military my mom was a nurse there was a strict household um but i i think some of it's just maybe it's because i was born in january right? Like I, I, there's a thing, that's a thing, you know? Well, yeah. Right.

So I really don't know other than our behavior as we learn behavior, we are either rewarded for it or not. And perhaps how I behaved in the decisions that I made. I had rewards for it either intrinsically or extrinsically was rewarded for those behaviors. And that worked until it didn't work, right?

 Once I got into my career, that rigidity wasn't helpful all the time. Yeah, no, for sure. Especially in the world today when things are, you know, you need to be more agile and adaptable in a lot of ways. I can see how you would have had to learn that probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's for many people, that's not something that comes easily. No, no. For most people that doesn't come easily. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, interesting.

 Okay. So maybe, maybe another rabbit hole for another day to go all the way down. Yeah. But you're a strategist at heart. Okay, so you and I, we're both strategists. We kind of work in different areas. We're not like conflicting at all or competing, really. We work with different kinds of clients. But we're both, you know, more on the strategy side, strategy execution. I also do some coaching. Do you do coaching as well? Are you a coach? Yes. I don't do a lot of the coaching myself anymore, but I do coaching usually with executive CEOs. Right. Okay. So you do a little bit of coaching as well or have done coaching as well. Yeah. So the world's basically like it's on fire on fire, you know, and everyone's terrified. Business leaders are terrified. Doesn't matter, you know, small business, medium sized business, large enterprise government, you know, nobody knows what's going to happen next.

There are lots of different mega threats, you know, in the world. mega threats you know in the world yep um what are you seeing like just like on a what what are you sensing right now in the world like what are you sensing as like some of the biggest things that people are concerned with day to day that is affecting their behavior i think um and and that's a very broad question. So I'm going to give you a very broad answer.

 I think one of the biggest questions that people have today is anything that's happening, anything that they read in the news, anything that they see happen on the street, et cetera, is how does this impact me and my future and my ability to be successful in whatever it is that I'm doing, right? To thrive in this ecosystem that we're in. And it sounds like a very selfish question, but it really, I don't think is, right? We're no good to anybody else unless we are strong ourselves.

And then once we're taken care of, it's easy to help the rest of the people around us in the world, et cetera. So I think that's the big thing for people is, hey, how are things going to help? So let's take Canadian politics right now. I'm coaching a CEO right now around the strategy for his organization, and he requires some funding through government grants. Okay, great. But what is going to be happening in our political environment come September?

Is the opposition going to say, hey, we want a non-confidence vote? Yeah. And that's going to destroy the current government and all funding is going to come to a screeching halt or do we have another year year and a half etc right so those sorts of things are a concern um even what's happening in the u.s for for their politics it's a concern for canadians uh and people in the U.S. alike. So I think for most people, it's like, how are these things going to impact us? And it can be the smallest little thing that puts people into turmoil.

 How do you see this sphere reflected within organizational behavior? Prime example, and this one's really, really fresh. CEO just let go two of his employees, small organization. Yeah. For various reasons, right? And the story start. Well, why were those people let go? And of course, the CEO can't be very specific on what those reasons are, because you have to value the privacy of those individuals. So there's a generic answer as to why. But people start making up stories. Right. Is it because employee A was no good, they were stealing, or is it because there isn't enough money in the company and we're going to go bankrupt?

All sorts of things come out. And so people see this information and start processing, okay, well, how does this impact me? Is there longevity in my career in this company? Should I start looking for work? Or, hey, I'm a survivor. I didn't get canned, but now I've got all this extra work. Or am I going to have all this extra work that I have to do to make up for the people that have left? Right. And when they don't have the answers to those questions, they make up answers to those questions. And I tell you, our brains are masterful storytellers.

Our brains, unfortunately, focus in on fictional horror instead of, hey, everything's going to be great. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. And it seems like in times of stress, you know, that becomes even more true that we fixate on, you know, trying to create certainty out of uncertainty, whether or not it's actually real. It's like a mass there's things we cannot control and we try to control. We spend a lot of energy on that instead of what we should be doing, right? We should be focusing on as an individual, what can I control? Focus on that.

And from that organizational perspective, get the work done that you need to get done to continue to perform well, to help the organization advance, to maintain the view that people have on your value to the organization, right? If you start spiraling out of control and become cynical and stop performing because you're just giving up, et cetera, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

 You kind of end up putting yourself out of work. Yeah. It strikes me that you're kind of the perfect person to help in this scenario someone who you know came from was probably very it was certainly probably still you're still very um disciplined but there's a difference between discipline and rigidity you know yeah um so but someone who was like very disciplined and maybe a you know verging on having too much routine perhaps once upon a time to having to learn how to adapt, being potentially a very good person to lean on in times like this when people have to learn how to adapt.

Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that I seem to be a good person for that. So I'll agree with you. Please do. It's also not only for the individual who's impacted, but also for leaders of organizations. Right. So earlier I said when people don't have the answers, they make up their own answers. Well, the answers need to be shared by leaders across the organization. the organization. So what is it that a leader can do to communicate, hey, there is a future and this is how bright it looks and you're part of that.

Or, hey, the future is uncertain. I'll be honest. But I really value you. That's why you're still here. And I need your help to figure out what it's going to look like. And let's make this work. Let's rally together to survive this. Right. So whether it's good news or bad news, those leaders really need to communicate with conviction and belief in that future and the people that report into them. Yeah. So we're kind of we're edging towards we're kind of like on the edge of the curiosity cure now, right? Yeah, yeah. We're starting to edge towards that.

 And it's interesting, because, you know, what you're talking about that balance between like reality and faith, essentially, is what we're talking about, you know, a belief that we're going to get through this, if we can do together and we're going to be honest and blah, blah, blah, right? All the way through. It's like, you know, you want to be honest, but can leaders really be honest?

You know, like how much honesty and transparency do you usually recommend? As much as possible. Yeah. Without sacrificing confidentiality. without sacrificing confidentiality. Okay, perfect. So there are times where a leader will be asked questions.

They may know the answer, but can't share it. And instead of saying, oh, I don't know, perhaps they should say something like, you know what, that isn't an area that I'm able to speak about now, but as soon as I can, I will share that information with you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you want to have, they want you to, they want to know, people want to know that you do know the answer, right? Not that you don't know the answer. That's terrifying, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We want to know that we're, we want to be confident that our leaders know that the answer is, and it's okay. Maybe if, if it's a need to know that we're going to want to be confident that our leaders know that the answer is and it's okay maybe if if it's a need to know at this point right yeah but the curiosity cures the same you know how much like where's the balance right between the hallucination and the reality when it comes to like you know we're leading with curiosity, how, how far into curiosity do you go?

This is a question that I ask myself a lot because I have ADHD and I have a lot of things that I'm curious about. I need some restraint, you know? I am, I'm curious. Okay. Let's, let's back up for a second. Talk about the curiosity curve. So people know what the heck we're talking about. Okay. Yes. Because we've said curiosity cure a few times a couple times yeah right so that that really is about pausing in the moment and asking yourself what you know this something happened and this is why i think it is pausing in the moment and thinking is there an alternate reason why this has happened is there an alternate potential outcome um one one thing i like to do so let's take the example of um uh you're driving down the road and somebody all of a sudden cuts you off right and many people have a negative reaction to that right right?

Once they get over the adrenaline rush of swerving out of the way or the near miss. And there are reactions typically are not all that friendly, whether it was yelling or gestures or speeding and catching up to the person at the next light, getting out of your car and hitting their window, like all that road rage stuff. Right.

 So let's stay away from that. Um, but asking yourself in the moment, what if that person that cut me off actually had positive intent? Right. What could have possibly happened that they would cut me off with positive intent right yeah so you know maybe they were avoiding a squirrel which you know okay but or maybe they were avoiding a child or their steering wheel stopped working i don't know right there's yeah sure so many potential opportunities or maybe it was just a dumb accident that they, they just cut you off and they didn't do it intentionally. Like I know I've cut, I've cut people off by accident without thinking about it. So right. We got to give people a break. Totally. Like I spent like my twenties, I was a little angry and most of my teens actually. Like I spent like my twenties, I was a little angry and most of my teens actually. Yeah. Most of us are at that age. Pretty angry. I was angry, angry at the world, you know?

 Um, and I, I think I remember like specific moments in my life where it was like all of a sudden the light turned on. It was like, I don't have to live this way. It's only affecting, it's only, the only person that it's impacting in a, in a negative way is me, you know, and I have a choice that I can decide to look at things like you can decide, you know, to look at things through that negative lens, or you can decide to look at things through sort of some rose colored glasses, if you will, you know, my company name is literally positivist group. So, you know, the being positive, it's actually not, it's the name that came from something else. But okay, the fact that it's named positivist, there's layers here, right? The it, you know, it makes me want to commit to constantly looking at things and giving people grace and make and not making assumptions right yeah you know that's funny because both of our company names have a sense of that so i often get asked well what is i noble like where'd you come up with that name?

That's a play on two meanings of noble. So noble being how can we do the right thing for people? Of course. And then the other part is noble as in no BS. Oh, okay. So there you go. So both of us, our companies, are really about trying to think of things from that positive perspective yes looking at the world not making it not assuming ill intent but assuming you know either neutral or positive intent right yeah yeah and when we were talking we when we had our like pre, you know, podcast conversation, it just struck me how impactful that mindset is. You know, the folks who I think really try, because it's hard, right? It's hard to maintain that mindset. But there's such a trickle down effect that it just like instantly shot into my brain. Like it affects literally everything in your organization. If you take that approach.

Absolutely. Right. It, it impacts, uh, well, I'll step back for a quick second and just say, it is natural for us to have negative thoughts that come into our head right away. So, you know, if you were late for this call, my mind might have immediately said, oh, you know, it's not going to happen. She doesn't like me. She doesn't care, et cetera. And that's natural. That's where our brains go. Yeah. What we need to do is step it up a little bit as individuals and say, okay, I've had those thoughts. Let's push that aside. Yes.

And start thinking about what could possibly happen, right? Maybe you're Zoom updated or Windows crashed across North America, right? Right? Like that just happened. Yeah. So that's all we have to do is push those things aside for a moment and start to think about what are some of those alternatives. When we can do that, we increase the trust that we have with other individuals that we work with. We increase the quality of communication by simply asking questions of people. And that's where that curiosity cure comes in is asking questions of people. So, Hey, I'm making this up, but Hey, you were, you were, you were late for our call today. That's not like you. What, what's going on. Right.

And then I about ABC and it's like, Oh, okay. But so it's, it's really about trying to shift that mindset and escaping the tragedy that our brain can easily, easily create. Yeah. I think just making sure that you're not impressing your own worldview on everything, like not that, you know, like how am I going to describe this, but just walking through the world with a sense that, you know, just what's coming into our minds isn't necessarily the truth. Right. So just trying to find, it's like the search for truth, essentially, you know, what is the truth? It's not my truth. It's not your truth. It's, you know, something in between the truth literally exists something in between everything. Right right and what that is it like exists in the gaps really yeah yeah exactly yeah and we want to make sure that we don't become the driver of what i call the bitter bus right oh yeah right that's you know i'm upset i'm cynical i don't believe in my co-workers my, everybody's out to get me. And, you know, it's too bad if an individual thinks that. But what they typically end up doing is start talking more, wasting lots of time and resources and energy.

So, I mean, I guess that begs the question, when does our optimistic, positive mindset turn into toxic positivity? Because we hear about that word a lot. It's just a buzzword. It's not like a, you know, a professional term or anything. Um, but what do you, what do you think about that? Do you think toxic positivity exists? We'll start there. Well, okay. So sure, sure it does. But is it prevalent? I don't know. I don't think so. To me, some visuals come to mind. When you talk about toxic positivity, I think of a doormat that everybody wipes their feet on or a big heavy wet blanket or somebody that's always saying yes to everything, even if they don't believe in it. So I don't think there's all that many people like that out there, but sure, there are some. Somebody can identify someone like that. But yeah. The way that I've heard it used is almost like an abusive term where it's it's more correlated almost with like gaslighting, if you know what I mean, where the leadership is like, no, fine. Like, you know, just be positive. Keep, you know, doing those 500 phone calls a day. And, you know, it's it.

Or are they hiding something from the front line? In both instances, you break that trust, which isn't a great thing for the organization, right? So, and I acknowledge there's things that the leadership team can't tell employees because they might be worried there'd be a mass exodus if they say some things, right? But yeah, there's an interesting stat that I saw recently that said the number of, what was it, the percentage of problems that a CEO or executive team knows about in an organization is something like 5%. The next level down, so mid-level managers know about 25% of the problems that are happening in an organization. The front line knows about 78% of the problems going on in an organization. So we need to make sure that we're listening all the way up and down and across the organization. Otherwise there's things that people just won't know. down and across the organization.

Otherwise there's things that people just won't know. Yeah. And okay. So obviously the way that you help your clients execute on strategy, that would be one of your recommendations, I assume is listening like the Gamble Walk kind of, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's really three core areas that I find, three intersecting ideas for an organization to have the momentum they need to be able to have sustainable results. And that's focusing in on both talent and execution and alignment in the organization. So for the talent, it's about having the right people, about developing those skills. It's about the culture of the organization, those sorts of things. On the same wavelength as to what our priorities, where are we going with that. Right. And we know in like practice, it doesn't like we, it sounds very neat and compartmentalized, but it kind of like, it's kind of like test, learn, test, learn, test, learn, test, learn.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Is there such thing as like, the more information you have as a leader, the more difficult it becomes to make decisions a lot of the time, because there's more complexity in the decision making. And obviously, there's like a balance between, you know, we want and we need information to make good decisions, but is there such thing as too much information? Do you see people freeze? Yes, me. I'm a prime example of it. So I did an assessment recently, and I forget what assessment it is, but one of the characteristics is, are you a fact finder or not a fact finder? So there's some people that will make split second decisions based on just a gut feel. And there's other people that want to find out all the facts about it. This is something I have to personally manage is how much data do I need before I just make a decision. And so that's a challenge that a lot of leaders have is being able to make the decisions based on both intuition and analytics and finding that balance. And is that something that you typically coach people through? Is that like a coachable moment?

Yeah, it absolutely is a coachable moment, right? And especially as you move up in an organization, you're going to know less and less and less about the detail information and you need to rely on the people around you who should be smarter than you to be able to help you make that decision, right? So a lot of leaders make the mistake of trying to make decisions in isolation. They need to communicate with their teams yeah so leaders don't be alone is the message if you're that might be problematic don't be alone it's lonely yeah yeah well a lot of leaders are lonely it's always here right well absolutely right and think yeah think of the person at the top, the CEO, as one of the loneliest places to be in an organization. Yeah. And we know that, I think we've seen that CEOs or leaders who try to be friends with all their employees, it doesn't always go so well either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've said this to many aspiring managers who have been moving from a team member are now all of a sudden supervising or managing their team. And like, it's not the same relationship.

 It cannot be the same relationship you had before. You can still be friendly, but you're no longer best buddies at work because you're not the boss. at work because you're not the boss. Well, and, and, you know, you, you, there's a real temptation. I remember I succumbed to this early, early on when I first became a manager and it wasn't anything that was critical, but it didn't, it only took me a few minutes to realize, oh, I probably shouldn't have told that person that thing that I told them because they're my friend. You know, I've got another level of responsibility now that, you know, I need to keep things to myself. Like I need to figure out how to do that, you know, do that better. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to age myself here, but it's like the, uh, uh, the amazingly, I know the date, the 1984 Fabergé shampoo commercial, which was, hey, I love the shampoo. And I told a friend who told two friends who then told two friends who told two friends. Exactly. Right.

So you've just told your friends something and they're going to tell their buddy something in confidence. And actually, that can be a very useful tactic if you're looking to promote information somehow. Yeah. Or shampoo, right? Or shampoo. That's exactly it. Awesome. So what's next for you, Kevin Judge? What's next for me? Well, I'm, in terms of what I'm doing, I'm taking a little bit of time off for July. I'm going to try and slow down a little bit and take care of myself physically and mentally. But then big plans on the business side of things as I'm continuing to ramp up, speaking with organizations, going in and chatting with them specifically around, hey, what do you need to do in the last 90 days of the year to actually get those results that you, that you want to have. So looking forward to doing a number of executive power hours is what I love. Okay. So a little motivation, education, little discipline from Kevin judge. It sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Helping them to be as successful as they can be. And is there a specific message that you like to share or is it all individualized depending on the business?

 It's very tailored to individuals and to the company itself and what they're doing on. But I guess if I were to summarize it, it's about really be clear on what is it that your organization needs to do to achieve that success? What are those priorities? And then aligning both your people and money and equipment resources against those priorities and communicating. And that kind of comes down to the whole topic that we've had today. It's about communicating effectively with people. So everybody's on the same page and they're not making up stories in their head and going down the wrong path. Yeah.

Going down those rabbit holes, Alice's rabbit hole. One final question. How do we save the world just kidding can you imagine yeah right no but seriously like how do we get more people thinking about curiosity because i do think that's what um is is i don't know if we can save the world but you know what i mean like yeah get more people thinking about things yeah i you know what it it it i think the easiest thing that you can do that i can do that every individual listening to this podcast can do is just when you're in a moment can do is just when you're in a moment, one, have that sense of curiosity for yourself. But also, if there's somebody that is coachable around you to say, hey, hold on a second, I hear you, you're concerned about ABC. What would happen if you were to stop and think of this in this different way? What other possibilities could there be? Right.

So just to take a moment to coach somebody along to help them with it. Right. So I think that's probably the best, the best way that we could do that. Get people to start thinking differently. Excellent. Excellent advice.

 Thank you very much. You're welcome.

 Thanks very much for having me.

Yeah, it's my pleasure.

 Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

“You don’t need to be healthy to be worthy human being”

Fierce, hilariously honest, and an A-list advocate, Vinny Welsby is a fat activist and diversity, equity and inclusion leader. They are a world-leading expert on dismantling anti-fat bias and diet culture, a TEDx speaker, podcast host and best-selling author. 

Vinny is trans-non-binary and is dedicated to shifting how society views fat and queer bodies through education and compassion. 

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Script:

 My first real job, the head boss called me Miss Piggy behind my back and to everyone for two years. I only learned of it after I left and a colleague finally came clean.

Almost daily during lunch, there was talk of eating, quote, healthy and statements that made me feel paranoid about what I ate in public.

There were definitely jokes made by my boss about fat people. were definitely jokes made by my boss about fat people one of the most memorable ones for me experiences was the time i cheered during a meeting and my boss responded with hey you burned a calorie no Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today.

And you know me, I'm your host, Erin Patchell. And today I'm here with Vinny Welsby. Welcome, Vinny.

Hello, hello, Erin. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about fat stuff with you today. I am so excited to talk about fat stuff because, you know, very near and dear to my heart, literally and figuratively.

Yeah. Vinny is a fat activist, in case you didn't notice and a diversity equity and inclusion leader they are a world-leading expert on dismantling anti-fat bias in diet culture a TEDx speaker and I watched it it's fabulous podcast host and best-selling author then he is trans non-binary and is dedicated to shifting how society views fat and queer bodies through education and compassion i already love you so there you go thank you oh my gosh where do we even start um i was listening to your tedx and there was one moment i mean there's a few moments that stood out for sure and a surprise towards the end for anyone who's going to watch. I won't say anything more about that. I'll just leave the intrigue right there. But when you said you don't need to be healthy to be a worthy human being, that literally just brought so many tears to my eyes because it transcends everything it's not about being fat right it's about being a person and all the work that we've been doing lately at positivist group and at the train to help project um maybe we'll talk about that at some point i think people who've been listening kind of know a bit about it but um i i just want to just kind of lay that out because um you can be healthy and fat right but you don't have to be healthy what what are we what are we even talking about why are we bringing this you know why is this even a conversation in in this day and age so i just wanted to say when you shared that I it really really struck home with me yeah because I think like that that line of it's kind of the I don't want the right word for but that zinger or the like the full stop because um people like to say it's not okay to say it's okay to say that it's okay to be fat uh because uh fat people some fat people are unhealthy and some people will say all fat people are unhealthy well it that doesn't matter even if every single fat person is super super unhealthy it doesn't mean that they're a less worthy person and so where people go from there that's kind of like well okay well what can I say to that there's not that much you can say to that really apart from okay yeah you know but some people will say no if you are unhealthy then you're a terrible person or whatever but uh that's their stuff oh yeah I don't know let's let's back up a little bit because I feel like we're going I just I brought it really deep really fast so let's come for air um tell me about how in the world this became your focus uh yeah so it is out of out of necessity out of selfish desire of of uh needing this in my life most of my life

 i thought that fatness was uh the worst thing that i could be um and i would do everything i could to not be fat i thought that becoming smaller would change my life would make me more confident would make me more lovable would make me uh you know money rain down from the sky and have hunky celebrities calling me up asking for a date and um when i did temporarily become thin and it's most people's stories that they temporarily lose weight because diets don't work for the vast majority of people when i did temporarily become thin none of those things happened uh yes I experienced more privilege because I had a smaller body however the way that I viewed myself um wasn't changed and my abilities to do the things I wanted in life didn't change um and it was really really painful for me as it is for many people and then one day after many years of dealing with this stuff i saw a message on the internet this is about 10 years ago that said it's okay to be fat and i was like get the fuck out of here what do you what do you mean it's okay to be fat um this was so revolutionary for me i had never considered um that this was an option and i continued reading it was reagan chastain's blog dances with fat i remember exactly where i was sat in my bed with my then boyfriend who had told me that he was less attracted to me because i had a slightly bigger body um and turning around to telling him like did you know this did you know that fat people could be healthy and did you know that uh that you can accept yourself the way that you are and that fat people deserve like dignity and respect? And, you know, it was life changing.

From that moment onwards, everything shifted. And it's been my mission and it's been my life's calling since then to share that same message that you're worthy. You always were. You always will be. Having a bigger body does not mean that you're worthy you always were you always will be having a bigger body does not mean that you're less worthy wow oh I wish that I could internalize that message you know it's going to be a struggle for me to get through this conversation without crying I'm just going to let everyone out there know because like I've been a fat girl my entire life yeah I've been a fat girl and everything that comes along with that you know all of the social rejection that comes along with that like you can tell it's very hard for me to say this and you know it is it is so painful for so many people because we've been told what fatness means is abhorrent is disgusting is a failure and how is that not so painful it is it really is especially imagine being a child oh i'm sure that you know how this feels right yes oh it's just life fucking up stuff these these and all that is is anti-fat bias because those things aren't true it's not true that you're uh you know this terrible human or i am or anyone else who has a bigger body or anyone who has a body that's outside social norms it's just not true it's an opinion it's a dominant opinion um and the moment that we can start unlearning that bias that we have internalized we can be free and that freedom from anti-fat bias oh oh my goodness it's so fucking good honestly i gotta say it's it's really good it's so nice it. It's interesting because, like, you know, I watch you. You know, like, I watch you and I've seen your TED.

And, you know, I've been kind of following some of your social media stuff. And you do seem so free. And I feel like people think that I feel that way. You know? Like, I will go to the beach. Like we went skinny dipping at a resort, you know? Like, you know what I mean? Like there's like these things, like I'll do them and I will be unapologetic about it. But it doesn't mean that I act free, but I don't feel free. How do we go from, I mean, a lot of people don't even act free, you know, it's like fake it till you make it. I'm in that phase, I think. Yeah. What do you think that people around you are thinking when they see you skinny dimping or at the beach or whatever? Like, are you thinking about what they're thinking? I hope that they think that I don't care you know I hope that they think that like there is a person who is having fun you know and being herself and that's what I want that's what I believe that they are seeing um so it's not them it's not me thinking it's them it's really me like yeah so what's your brain saying then um in the in that moment I don't care you know it's in the other moments that um when I'm in the change room and something doesn't look the mirror is like you know it's like whoa that looks really bad or you know when you look at all the cute things that you would want to wear if I look at my daughters who are literally perfect um in the stereotypical sense of the word you know and you're just like thank god that they're perfect you know it's so much easier for them yeah yeah so you're it's that internalized like uh you saying oh I don't look right and my body's wrong or whatever it is that's coming up. But you're you're hoping that people outside are are saying good for her. You go you go and do your swim thing. And so it's.

Yeah, I have I have very optimistic ideas of what people think. Yeah. I live in a little optimism bubble. But you know what? I don't think that's a bad thing. No, no, I think so. So when I'm talking to people doing like one-on-one stuff, I'll ask them like these questions I was asking you because, because, because a lot of times people, it'll be people have different stages of, of, of unlearning anti-fat bias. A lot of times people will say, people are looking at me and saying that i'm disgusting and um then when you when you've worked on anti-fat bias stuff that will start to fade away and you'll have a more generous view of how people might be looking at you because you're also looking at other people with a generous lens when you're really really deep stuck in anti-fat bias you're thinking about other people being like, oh, gross that they are unattractive. And you're looking at yourself.

Oh, gross. I'm unattractive. Once you start unlearning anti-fat bias, you begin by looking at other people with love and compassion. And then the next stage is looking at yourself. So from what you've told me, it sounds like you've already done a lot of work on this stuff and you're taking action. So if anyone listening is kind of in a similar position or if they're thinking other things about other people, wherever you're at, it tells me that you've done so much. And also there is the possibility for that shift so that you can take that compassion you're giving to others and give it to yourself in those moments of like what in the changing room what would if i was stood next to you and i and you said oh i don't look good like what would i be saying i'm like what the heck you know i mean sometimes it's valid sometimes it's like oh you know what maybe that's not the right fit or whatever it is like color yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe that's not the right style for you like I think there's some validity to it do you think I would say you if you said oh I don't look good I'd say yeah that's valid I mean I hope if it were true you would say that I don't know because I wouldn't look at I wouldn't look at someone's body and say, oh, that's not right, or you don't look good. Like, it just wouldn't come. I couldn't, in my brain, I couldn't see it. So anyway, anyway. But this happens at work, and that's the thing. It's like, I strongly believe, and I have heard this story from other people just before you and I started chatting this story from other people just before you and I started chatting.

 I had a friend text me. I'm like, oh, you wouldn't believe, you know, what I'm doing next, like podcast with you. And we, you know, a lot of, it's funny how people who are overweight often attract other people who are overweight. And a lot of my friends are a little bit overweight, a little bit fat. And they're okay. You know, we're solid, like we are like confident fat ladies, and that's fine. But they were saying that they had a wicked story about a boss, they had lost 50 pounds in the workplace. And it was like wild, you know, how, how differently they were treated all of a sudden. It was very obvious. This is a real, this is actually, I think, a huge problem in the workplace. And I strongly believe that I was, I've been held back because of my weight, you know, and that's a problem because I'm smart. Like, you know, like everything else aside, the way I look aside, like I'm a hard worker and I'm smart and worker and I'm smart and diligent and I give a shit. And I think those qualities should far overweigh what I weigh, you know?

 Exactly. And I feel like a lot of people in bigger bodies, they're actually harder workers than people in smaller bodies because they have to prove themselves. So they're just working their fingers to the bone and being perceived as lazy because they have a bigger body which is which is really unfair and what's really driven this home for me is recently i have i've just completed it and i can send you a link to it um is a fat at work report did i tell you about this before oh no remind me yeah it's so i've done a survey with 336 people asking them about their experiences at work and these are all people in bigger bodies um and i've done an analysis and report from that survey and the the stuff that the stories that people have shared are horrific heartbreaking unbelievable when i say unbelievable 100 believable but still you're thinking how do people like this exist in the workplace it's so cruel right um so what we learned from this this report was that um the percentage of fat people that have um said that they've experienced anti-fat bias in the workplace is 95.65 percent oh wow yeah now that is gargantuan. It's just every fat person has had shit experiences in the workplace.

 And then if we put on top of that the marginalized identities, people who are over the age of 50, people who are racialized, people who are disabled and have a lower economic status they are all experiencing this anti-fat bias more more in their life and had have had feel like they've had a greater impact on their career so um this is this anti-fat bias in the workplace a lot of people say does it exist is this a thing not only does it exist but it's a huge thing it's a massive problem and no one's talking about it which is not literally no one's talking about it when I saw what you do I was like oh my gosh yes like we talk about diversity equity inclusion and accessibility and i think people with disabilities also it's not talked about enough so we're talking about that more as well but this is literally never talked about and first person i've ever heard talk about i know isn't it weird and the thing is fat people are the largest marginalized uh group in most societies so it's you know the statistics something like 68 percent of women are plus size so if we're thinking 68 percent of the workforce depending on the company um 68 percent of those people have experienced uh almost all of them have experienced anti-fat bias in the workplace and not just like a little bit these stories are egregious really really not cool wow yeah so what do you do i know that you're working hard obviously you're trying to enlighten people get the word out you know you're you're you're like becoming an influencer you are an influencer but i can see that you're like, you've, you're on a mission. Oh my goodness. Yeah. What do we do? What do we do? It's hard. It's really hard. You know? I don't know. What do we do? Go and have a nap or something. Watch some Netflix. Relax. But actually I ask people like, what, what do they need? What makes, what would make things easier?

 like what's the most essential things it's really really sad but this most like the beginning stuff is uh really basic human uh necessities like having access to a washroom that they can use um having a place to sit having um if they wear uniform clothes to wear so that's the first thing really basic really like basic stuff and so you know how have we not already got the these basics covered but that's the first thing is making sure that we've provided basic amenities if we're in the workplace um the next thing that we need to do is we need to gather data because um almost every single um workplace that asks demographic data will not ask about people's body size they have no clue how many fat employees they have unless it's for wellness initiatives or or for the insurance and then they're not using it as a demographic for for diversity reasons um and they don't know what the fat people's experiences are um and so we need to be asking this this question like what's your body size and if you feel comfortable sharing and how, how's your experience in the workplace?

 So once we've got that data, then we can provide training and start shifting attitudes. Um, and what I do is I start with the DEI team or company leaders because so often a lot of, uh, shit is coming from people's bosses um is uh let me do you want me to tell you some of these stories from like people's bosses yeah okay let me let me let me go let me go to the bosses section because i've so with the stories i've kind of um put them into different categories um so many bosses saying like terrible shit so uh an office manager once said to my face that she would rather die than be fat one of the most memorable ones for me experiences was the time i cheered during a meeting and my boss responded with hey you burned a calorie no um i once worked for a men's health organization and i was told i needed to be smaller from the executive director to reflect men's health i am a woman it made me feel terrible most of the discomfort i experienced at work was pressure to diet and to keep weight off almost daily during lunch there was talk of eating quote healthy and statements that made me feel paranoid about what i ate in public there were definitely jokes made by my boss about fat people um this one person my first real job the head boss called me miss piggy behind my back and to everyone for two years i only learned of it after i left and a colleague finally came clean um yeah so the stories go on and on and on uh about you know food shaming and commenting on people's bodies and on an employee's bodies it's just fucked up it is it's totally fucked up um what do you think people are specifically afraid of like these bosses in particular like what is it that they're so afraid of fat bodies um i think it comes down to, are they a lovable, worthy, worthy human? Because if they're not maintaining a smaller body, then they are out of control and they are bad and they are not lovable.

 They are, they are to be rejected from society. Because of all of this anti-fat bias we've internalized we see fatness as this almost death sentence so why wouldn't they be terrified of being fat or becoming bigger it makes total sense and because everyone else not everyone but most people also have that same fear of being fat or being fatter, that we all bond on this communal shame of, oh, I'm being naughty. I shouldn't eat this like sliver of cake. And, oh, I had a bad weekend eating this or I should really lose weight or whatever. That really is for many people very bonding because we all have those same fears so yeah it's a very very normal part of our culture as we all know and what can we if you're a leader if you're a leader listening to this you know and you want to be more inclusive um so Vinny what would you say to the leaders listening to this who do want to be more inclusive?

How do they like notice those moments and change the script? Yeah, it's hard because so many people, it's so normalized in workplaces, right? So this really is about a culture shift within organizations. So we spoke about those like those basic things like basic amenities um asking questions and training but the um the big thing is is making a culture shift and how we do that is complicated but putting in um policies to protect people with with bigger bodies um so within your hr um within your dei policies mentioning that size is a protected class um size is a protected class in a number of locations in the us um it will be coming to a city a state a province near you this is going to happen so you you should get on the the front end of this making so making in your statement your diversity statement we protect people um due to their size and so you would say height and weight um realizing that i don't think we have done that on a positive histogram so i'm just gonna go because you don't you don't think about it yeah no you don't think about it um you could also just say uh due to uh the way that your body looks when someone's body looked if you don't want to mention height or weight um we also want to make in uh the same way that we have policies protecting those protected groups like what would you do if your colleague came in and started saying oh i hate i hate people with adhd i'm someone with adhd oh people are adhd blah blah whatever they were saying ableist stuff there would be a plan that hr has in place to deal with that type of behavior is if someone's being a bigot in the office yeah we don't just let it fly well i said we don't let it fly a lot of places do um and so we don't let anti-fat bias fly we don't let diet talk fly um that's not who we are as an organization culturally that's not our values we're an inclusive organization if that's who you are so um that has to be a learning process people overnight are not going to understand if you just say hey everyone we're changing the rules you're not allowed to talk about um diets and and hating your body people are going to be like what the fuck um this is really strange and why not and also we don't and um they won't know that the stuff that they're saying is really harmful and based in bias. So there needs to be education.

So I wish that there was a simple kind of, oh, just do this, like put something at the bottom of your email signature or something. But it's a cultural shift and changing norms in the in the organization right but it can start with the particular leader so like as an individual you have the autonomy to change the way that you do things yeah yeah for any person yeah call something out or call something in however we're saying that yeah yeah yeah yeah so you could be saying like hey by the way uh in our team we have a uh no body talk um policy and uh talking to you know if someone says something like hey by the way we don't talk about bodies in that way la la la um so you could definitely within your team have that but unfortunately you wouldn't be theoretically backed up by policy within the organization unless that's changed right it would be a microculture that yeah yeah yeah yeah that's what i would do like if i if uh if i had a team a team and i worked in an organization and someone started talking about this stuff i would take them aside and very gently call them in um yeah and um and then influence upward i suppose you know yes it's not already company policy yeah that's what exactly what happens is when i go into organizations um it's because a fat person has influenced upwards and said we need this now right and it's happened because the straight size people in the organization will say it's not a big deal. And the fat, the fat leader will say it is a big deal.

 I know because I've lived it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't necessarily change how we perceive ourselves, but it helps, you know, so it doesn't absolve us as a like if you're a fat person like I am, you know, out know out there you know it doesn't absolve us for doing that work ourselves either because i don't know if you recognize that quote i think i sent you an email with a little quote in it it's from the dao of steve and they're talking about like how he won't date thin people or something yeah i looked it up i hadn't recognized that i looked it up and i was like what is this what is going on i love that movie and he says um i'm the worst kind of fattest i'm a fat fattest and i always feel that way too sometimes i'm like so it certainly doesn't absolve me from um the work that i need to do to detangle my own biases yeah yeah because we will we will cause harm we'll always no matter what we'll always call cause harm and so um it's a lot easier to advocate for this work and do this work um in organizations if you deeply believe that all fat people including yourself deserve um everything in the world and are wonderful humans. And, you know, you've got rid of that bias. It's harder to advocate when you're agreeing with the oppressor and you're like, oh, I'm kind of disgusting. So it just makes things easier if you think that you're right in some ways. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

And I think people should feel confident to just live their lives without judgment you know and be able to do what they want to do and be who they want to be i mean you know i think that would be a beautiful world to live in oh wouldn't it oh and i i know when i was in really in in anti in diet culture and anti-fatness i couldn't imagine that that being a reality because everyone speaks about this stuff you know hating themselves and diets and how can they get thin and um but i want to let people know that it is a reality to um maybe not for everyone because of different dynamics and stuff but it is a reality that there are people out there who are not going to be judgmental towards your body, that you can create relationships and community with people who are, who are like-minded, who are fierce fatties and who will call you out. If you try and talk shit about yourself. And luckily after, you know, 10 years of therapy and all that type of stuff that's where i'm at in my life and it's i'm almost like this is unbelievable it's very strange and so wonderful and it really supports my mental health because here's the thing is you can't stop doing this work um we are bombarded by anti-fat stuff all the time going like go and watch you know a tv show bikini babes on the beach dating show immediately your brain's like oh maybe i should be a bikini babe and maybe i should be younger and maybe i should be thinner maybe i should get botox and maybe i should targeted advertising now on the media and everything constant it's constant so it's a constant kind of balancing of yeah i want to watch bikini babes on the media and everything constant it's constant so it's a constant kind of balancing of yeah i want to watch bikini babes on the beach show because it's i love trashy tv but you know i want to protect my mental health and how can i do both and can i do both and yeah well we have a lot of work to do yeah and that's the thing is i i i teach both sides right i teach help individuals and organizations because you it's really hard to do one without the other yeah and we're going to post you know every possible way that people can get a hold of you vinny in the show notes so folks out there um i know that you do have education that you do public education so people can like buy a ticket to a class um you know, and you do obviously corporate education as well. So if there are corporations out there looking for this type of support, you know, you are fabulous. And I can only imagine how good you must be in a small group.

So, yeah. Well, I think, well, I think I, yes. i yes thank you i'm just gonna take the compliment i was like not everyone likes me god erin no but everyone come on thank you yeah and um the uh the report that i was i was quoting from and talking about it's uh 58 pages of juicy stuff and so um i've got it i've got a link for people to download it amazing amazing yes i cannot wait to look at that that sounds so interesting it is i've been nerding out about it okay when did that was when was that released it hasn't Oh, it's brand new. It's, uh, I'm wait, I've, I've, I've just finished it like last week and I'm like, when should I release this? But everything's live. So people can get, can get, I just haven't shared the link with anyone. So I can, you know, obviously share it with you. And, um, it's amazing. Yes. I can't wait. Hot off those presses.

 If there were presses. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and chatting with me Vinny it's been a pleasure thank you Erin thanks for uh talking about fat stuff with me I really appreciate it oh yeah no it's it's been good we I need to talk about this more I think it's one of those things where it's like you need to shine a light on the dark areas of your life and have you know brought you shame and then that's how you dark areas of your life and have, you know, brought you shame. And then that's how you get out of it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's a quote from a controversial vigor, Brené Brown, but I like the quote, shame cannot survive the light. Oh yeah. Perfect. Yep. Yeah. So shine some light on that shame. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

 Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Intro:

The coach may not play the game, but the coach inspires and motivates the players to play the best game possible! Join our discussion with leadership coach and entrepeneur Garen Jemian on how to implement a successful coaching culture in your workplace to inspire your employees. 

Stay in touch: 

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/garenjemian

Website:

https://www.inspireship.com/

Script:

To put on the coach's mindset is to let the other person have the dopamine hit.

You need to have more influence so you can share this with the world.

It takes a lot of time and energy and prioritization to do something that's a long game rather than a short game.

Coaching is where one person focuses their time and energy and presence on helping another one achieve their outcomes.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And I'm so happy right now to be joined by my very good friend, Garen Jemian, who I feel like I haven't seen your face for months because you've been MIA. You've been working. What's that about? Garen, continue. What were you going to say? Nothing. continue what were you gonna say nothing nothing um garen is a phenomenal leadership coach highly experienced working with all different sectors public and private sector he's a favorite in the public sector in the government of canada you know where he's doing some pretty amazing work uh that i wish you know we could we could talk about but apparently we're not allowed to talk about some things. So it's top secret. And what else do I need to say about you? You're the author of Happy People Work Harder. You are the founder of Inspireship, which is a coaching and consulting firm in Montreal. And you're just an awesome person. Hi, Garen.

 I'm going to hire you for my intros forever. Okay, good. From now on. Consider it done. That's so amazing. And yet, you're the one wearing a shirt that actually is so inspiring that impacts society and people. We're trained to help. um i know we're going to talk about something today and i i kind of wish we were talking about your project instead but i'll pass that over to you well you're just going to have to start a podcast then so that i can come on your podcast and talk about it we have one it's called inspire talk it's an open podcast where we actually have um participants interacting with the dialogue. So it's kind of we'll definitely have you on board in the next couple of months. Oh, I am totally there. You know, I'm there with bells on. I will literally bring bells and a cowboy hat. So we are talking today about building a coaching culture. And I know in the last conversation that we had in the last season, because this is the second time now that you've been on the podcast, I know we touched on it just a little bit. But this is something that's so important to both of us.

 So I think it's awesome that we're going to give it a lot of attention. I'd love to just start by like, what is your definition of a coaching culture and tell me about one or two of the challenges or the opportunities that you see here that you've worked within in terms of the businesses you've worked for can i start by telling you how i discovered the concept and and we just go there because as you were talking i'm like how did i get into this mess so i used to i used to uh own and operate a nightclub in downtown montreal and that's as far as i'll go in talking about that but um some peers in the industry and i would have this uh this competition of who could be the best boss ever and so we're a bunch of nightclub owners and we get together and we shoot the breeze and we're like, you know, who's more liked? Who's more effective and all that stuff. And we're just trying to be the best boss ever. And these are some pretty renowned business owners in Montreal.

And so I went on this quest and I tried everything. And mostly I was trying to be the most liked, the nicest person, the most generous, the most flexible, the most understanding. the most generous, the most flexible, the most understanding. And the problem is we weren't getting out. My turnover was still high. My turnover was so high when I would just meet people. I wouldn't even want to get to know them because they'd be gone in less than a month. I'm like, what am I doing wrong? And of course, inherently the industry has high turnover, but it just wasn't good enough for me. So eventually, I went to university, studied coaching, came out, and I kind of saw something there that I didn't figure out as a leader. And so I kind of felt like I was always coaching, but I didn't know what I was doing or why.

So I went to study the methodology and understanding what it actually meant so that's kind of what got me started and so i ended up selling my shares i i start getting into coaching and i start working with some organizations and every leader starts asking me the same question which is how do i motivate people yeah i was like how do you motivate people so then i go on this next quest of how you motivate people and and the book came out so very soon after I realized that we need to be teaching coaching competencies and coaching mindset to every leader in every organization in our country ASAP yes and I'd like to make a distinction there's a coaching mindset and there's coaching competencies. You don't need to be a coach to have a coach's mindset. Correct. Yes. Right.

The being of the coach is completely different from, you know, getting two, three thousand hours and becoming a masterful coach. You can just have the coach's mindset. Yeah. And so that's tough enough, though. It's huge. That's pretty tough. It's a coach's mindset. There you go. Done. pretty tough. It's the coach's mindset. There you go. Done. It is. It is. And so I believe that if you can equip all your leaders with some of those competencies of getting out of the way, believing in the best of everyone within your team, understanding how people interact, how people behave, how the psychological impacts of humans in the workplace, understanding how you can set better objectives that intrinsically motivate employees to get them growing in a direction of desirability and truly understanding how to maximize your team's potential. Imagine what an impact that does.

 And we tend to think that it's for the employees. It's not. I'm here to tell you my job is to help my clients and my clients are the leaders. When we teach this stuff, it's to help life better for the leaders. Imagine if you had to work less hard, you can empower people. They became more autonomous, more creative, more accountable. You'd have to put in probably a bit less work. You could delegate better. What else? Hang on. You can trust people more. Yeah. Imagine you could be less reactive and more strategic more often. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of promises, but I've been working in this space for almost 10 years now.

And I can tell you, it's not. It's not magic, but it's also not like woo woo. It's not, you know, this is like real, real shit. It is, but it takes a lot of time and energy and prioritization to do something that's a long game rather than a short game. Yeah. And it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. Oh yeah. And you have to let go of game. Yeah. And it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. Oh yeah. And you have to let go of control. Well, I like that. I like being a little out of control. Yeah. Not, not when you have like really stringy, stingy KPIs and you gotta deliver results and you have to find the balance between delivering results and being hands off. Yeah, for sure.

Yep. You have to find the balance between delivering results and being hands-off. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But there's also like the middle path, which is the coaching. You know, it's not like it's those two. Those are the two spectrums, right? There's a third way, and that is the coaching culture. Yeah. Yeah. So how would you define the coaching culture then? Let's go there. Other than obviously the skills of the coach, how does that reflect amongst the team? I'm going to, I'm going to Kung Fu this one and ask you, how do we define the word culture?

Oh yeah. How do I define the word culture? Well, I mean, it's, it's the sum of all of the artifacts, behaviors, you know, desires, motivations, skills, intentions, you know, of a group of people. And we're going to get into this later, though, and it doesn't have to be the whole organization. That. Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be doing a lot of the talking but i haven't with culture i have more questions than answers and the one thing i say is like whenever i hear people talking about how we change culture and it's like it's just like it's so methodical i call bs totally i call bs and i get paid for this stuff and i show up and the first thing i say is it it's it's so hyper complex at best we're trying to solve for this yeah and then hopefully if and the first thing i say is it it's it's so hyper complex at best we're trying to solve for this yeah and then hopefully if you solve for a lot of things you look at something as a whole consistency consistently and say i like this right yeah and i should have mentioned also like systems processes governance like that's all wrapped into it as well yeah of course and each one takes what an aeon to solve for so um so how do we define culture how we work and how we behave and interact with each other okay yeah if you want to keep it simple sure uh yeah i mean no no i mean definitely i i feel that it's something more than that though too right it's like the energy of a place um it's what it feels like how do you measure the energy um I mean you can only mention measure it through the feelings of the people that are on the team yeah and the problem is that people have lives so depending on what's going on in their lives you can have the best culture and if someone's just not feeling it because something really wrong happened at home that morning, that'll impact culture.

So it's like it's the employees and their families and the environment and the country and the world all impacting this in this infinite matrix. Yeah. And so how do we define the coaching culture then? What is unique about something that we would call a coaching culture i would start by defining what coaching is okay and i and you know me erin i'm like i like things so simple so simple so if i were to like hyper simplify this and bring it down to the common denominator i'd say coaching is where one person focuses their time and energy and presence on helping another one achieve their outcomes okay yeah i like to simplify that way right um and so a coaching culture and i think achieving that person's outcomes needs to be like emphasized. So it's not like your agenda. It's their agenda. Ideally. Yeah. Ideally.

 Organizations do set objectives and expectations. So sometimes the leaders have to set the objectives, but at least we give the leeway to the employee to select how. Exactly. If they can't choose the what, at least let them choose the how and give them the time and space to figure out what's best for them um so coaching for me is that coaching is also um it's about believing in other people's potentials it's about stepping out of the way it's about relinquishing your ego as a leader. It's about putting the spotlight on someone else. It's about trust. Yeah, all that stuff. So a coaching culture for me would be, what if all the leaders within an organization kind of ran with that MO? Yeah. We always talk about like putting the hat on right we have the coach hat as a manager you may have a coach hat you have a leader hat you have a boss hat sometimes right how does the coaching culture kind of integrate these different personas that you might have as a manager or a leader, do you think? Or can it? I would start with, yeah. So I'm just going to dig into some of my material in my brain.

 So we'll do two things. One, we'll start with, we'll do three things. One, start defining what leadership is and building some self-awareness. Then we'll dig into the hats. So then you've got the manager the leader the mentor yeah the coach and most people think that if you'll ask you you leaders out there you're listening to this and i want you to think on a scale of one to ten how much of a coach are you and you're going to give yourself a score but what i've learned is most leaders who think that they've got a coaching stall or actually have a mentoring style yes and there's a distinction there mentoring versus coaching i don't know if we should dig into this now but once you've got that aside then you can dig into something else like leadership styles yeah and if if you if you subscribe to goldman six coaching is one of the leadership styles which whatever um so you've got what you've got the visionary the pace setter you've got the affiliative democratic um you've got the this is from daniel gulman interesting you've got the coaching so it's innovative in there command and control okay so the boss interesting yeah so something happens is by creating the distinctions of, you know, what style of leadership comes out with you by default and then which hats you're putting on and when and why.

Now the leaders are starting to understand what coaching is and isn't and what everything else is. And they start seeing the distribution or at least the, you know, how often they choose what style and why. Right. often they choose what style and why. Right. And then we'll go into realizing that a lot of people in stressful situations will tend to gravitate towards the command and control style. And then I'll ask them, why do you think that is? And it turns out that command and control is so effective that when it's time and you pull out, you know, your biceps and say, do as I tell you because I said so, and you really pull out your authority, it's very effective, especially during times of crisis. And then as the leader, you're like, that worked. And it was really easy. And so it's easy to fall into the trap of going into command and control because of how effective it was the first time and the second time.

It's just eventually that edge blunts and you start losing your people. And so we need to get them to realize that command and control is good during certain times of crisis when time crunch is happening. But you got to kind of spread it out. You can use it perhaps maybe 5, 10% of the time, but then the rest of the time you might want to lay off, lay off the trigger a little bit. Well, and it strikes me that if your people are constantly coming to you for guidance and they can't make their own decisions and they don't know, you know, how to influence upward, right? Like how to help you make decisions. And you have to, you feel like you have to use that command and control. You might just be living in survival mode a little too much as a company. If it's the situation, that's just a downward spiral to burnout. I mean, go down that path. So if your employees keep coming to you for, with their questions, why are they, why is this happening? Why do you have to be the number one decision maker in the company? Have you set it up like that? Maybe that, and, and, and someone gave it away to me.

Uh, recently we were talking about, um, just coaching in my own personal coaching development. We were trying to figure out the posture of the coach. What's our role, you know, and why a coach shouldn't give the answer, but always struggles not to write. Like you want to give the answer to something. And it turns out that he or she who finds the answer first gets the dopamine hit. Oh, interesting. You feel good about yourself because you solve the problem. Oh, interesting. You feel good about yourself because you solved the problem. And to put on the coach's mindset is to let the other person have the dopamine hit. Yeah. You don't need to be the hero. I actually, when I did my coaching program, I think that was the most transformative thing for me. And I know we, you and I have talked about this once or twice before. But it was knowing that I didn't have to be that person anymore. I didn't have to shoulder that load because for me it was, it's exhausting, right?

It's exhausting having to make the decisions. It's exhausting having to be the one who, you know, has to know the answers to everything. Like, yes, maybe there is a dopamine hit, but it's countered by that the energy expenditure how much energy it takes so um for me the most transformative thing was knowing that i didn't have to have all the answers all i had to do is ask the right questions and and it was the word have to yeah as a coach and but if if you're a manager do you feel like you have to or there's a part of you that feels validated when you when you can and so you want to because if you don't have the answer man let me check it out and leaders define their value yeah by their by their expertise so you'll get promoted to team lead why because you're the best at what you do and the team gets promoted to manager why usually because of their competence their their hard skills not because of their leadership competencies not because of their soft skills but because of their hard skills so they're graded by how good they are at their job and now all of a sudden you're at management level or director level and honestly, sometimes at VP level and sometimes at C-suite level where they're still measuring their worth by their competence. Yeah. And it's not.

Goldsmith's book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. Very similar. You got to level up. You got to let go of the fact that you have to be great at something, especially in tech, when you always have to be up to speed with the newest tech that's coming out. And oftentimes I'll get leaders being promoted to the director level and beyond in tech. And they're told to let go of the continuous learning and focus more on leadership and management. And they're saying, well, once I stop learning, I become irrelevant. Right. So your identity, actually, your whole identity has to change. Right. So if I'm, yeah, if I'm like, you know, my entire career to date, I have been validated, I've been promoted, and I've been, you know, I've been, I've been given accolades for being a technical expert. Now, you're telling me that I'm going to be measured by a whole different set of criteria. Like, that's crazy to me. That's such a crazy shift. Can you tell me about one of the companies that you work with, obviously don't mention any names necessarily, but that you've supported through this transition? Yeah. And that's what I love and hate about what it is that we do. I'm like the most private public figure as in the work I do is, um, I get to work with so many people, but I can't really announce any of the things that I do. So there's not, there's very little documentation.

Uh, so listeners and watchers out there, you're just going to have to trust me, but don't whatever. so having said that, I know all the details. Yeah. So, so, so repeat that question with regards to one of my clients. We're talking about the coaching culture. Yeah. How did you help them navigate or, you know, maybe they're navigating because this is not like a one-time deal, right? This is the process between, you know, that technical mindset to that leader mindset that we're talking about and creating the coaching culture through the process. Tell me a story. Once upon a time. Yeah. So I'll preface it with this. Sometimes we build a coaching culture intentionally, transparently, and very tactically. And sometimes I do it inconspicuously. As in, on this side of the spectrum, you've got full buy-in from the CEO all the way down. And the entire organization is going to get a crash course. Like we're talking like super crash course, like nine hours, maybe 12 of like coaching, training and, and, and workshopping over, let's say a two month period. And everyone's kind of speaking the same language. And then from there we'll, we'll use the 70, 20, 10 models. So training workshops.

 And then after that, we go to level two, which is group coaching, right? Having mastermind chats of challenges that they might be having. And lastly, individual support. So how do we make sure each person gets to where they need to be? That's on the super fun, amazing side of what we do because you can create an entire program and bring in experienced coaches and mentors guiding these leaders through the process okay but you don't have to be that intentional and invest that much i mean you should but whatever i think you should yeah of course you should uh but you don't have to to still get some of the benefits for instance let's see you're a small company you've got 20 leaders and you decide to provide leadership coaching to each of the 20 leaders without even having the training and the development stuff but they're just going through individual coaching well to be coached is a huge transformational experience yes and as you're being coached, you sort of, it kind of, you, you sponge up some of what's going on. You start not, I won't say imitating, but emulating what the coach is doing with you to then using those same questioning and presence and active listening and all that stuff. You automatically start doing it with someone else without knowing it.

Yeah, that's true. all that stuff, you automatically start doing it with someone else without knowing it. Yeah, that's true. So that's kind of where I say it's like, however you want to attack the coaching culture piece, as soon as you start introducing external resources, coaches or facilitators or both, you start having those positive impacts. Yeah. And I would caveat that these are ICF certified coaches or coaches following ICF competencies, the International Coach Federation competencies, because there's lots of people who call themselves coaches out there that don't really follow the same methodology or frameworks.

So I think it's, you know, it's not the same kind of leadership that you're going to get from other types of coaches in terms of leading by example. That's the sad thing. Yeah. I believe in coaching so much. I mean, it's what I do. Yeah. But even calling myself a coach, I will do it so sparingly. Yeah, me too. It's kind of like rather than saying I am a coach, I'll say I use coaching as one of my skill sets to achieve the outcome. 100%. Yes. Right. Yeah. And I use that to help differentiate myself just a little bit, just to say that it's not my only focus. Yeah. It's kind of the mindset is there for sure. Yep. But that coaching, when you wear that coaching hat, you know that you're following those ICF competencies. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. The client doesn't know it, you know that you're following those ICF competencies. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. The client doesn't know it, you know it. Well, and you can sometimes, if, you know, sometimes I will say, I'm going to put my coaching hat on here, you know, it depends on what they've come to me for. Sometimes they come to me for coaching. So they're expecting more coaching than anything else.

Other times they're, you know, they're going to come to me for advisory services, um, or mentorship. And then, you know, sometimes I will just throw on my couching hat every now and then, you know, um, so ICF quiz for you there, which one of the competencies do we need to, to introduce right off the get go to make sure that we're all on the same page? Uh, building a contract. Yeah yeah so setting clear agreements yeah let's coaching what it isn't which hats i can use how these sessions are gonna go um way to go garen what yeah quiz being icf you know absolutely so so if they don't know what coaching is how do you how do you it's like kind of like giving them a card telling them how everything works totally yeah and sometimes my client will come and be like i don't need coach garren today i was like okay yeah i'm like okay which which coach do you know which which version of me do you need they're like i need mentor friend and uh and boss i need the boss sometimes they're just like i just need you to listen to me because i just i just need to let something off my chest today. Totally. Yeah. And that's the agreement. I'm like, fine. So for that moment, I'll just use some of the ICF competencies, which is intimacy, trust, full presence, caring and scrap everything else. And I'll just be there. And if there's an opportunity to coach, I will. And if, and if the person doesn't want or need to be coached that day, then I'll always serve my client before I serve anything else. Yeah.

And that's what being a coach really is. That's what following the ICF coaching competencies and the coaching philosophy really is, you know? So at the end of the day, it's extremely client focused or customer focused or, you know, whatever you want to call it. It's like leadership 101. Person focused. Give a give a hoot give a hoot we can say shit on this podcast can we but nothing worse than that when i'm when i meet with people and i'm like it's like a leadership um intro class i'll be like, hmm. Just like the first slide will just be like, give a shit. Yeah. If you don't care about people, just be a manager and just try not to manage people. Just be like a one-person manager managing processes and systems. Okay, yes. Okay, yes, exactly. Don't be a people manager. I was going to say, if you're managing people, you have to care. You have to care about them. I'm sorry. Okay. Yes, exactly.

 Don't be a people manager. I was going to say like, if you're managing people, you have to care. Like you have to care about them. I'm sorry. Okay. And do you think we live in a society where a hundred percent of managers care about people? No, I mean, no, but they ought to. Yeah, they ought to. That's why it's the public service announcement. If you don't care, leave. Well, it was, I think it was Margaret Van Amelsvoort, who's a, one of the, one of our amazing coaches and mentors who I worked with in a previous role. And she's from the government of Canada, or was before she retired. And she's the one who told me that people managers should be spending 50% of their time managing people. And I was like, okay. And I, you know what, I started using that in conversations because I was in business development. And I thought this was like, you know, management slash leadership 101, that you should be spending a lot of time, the majority of, or at least half of your time, actually actively managing, supporting, serving, guiding, teaching, mentoring your people, right? Directing sometimes, whatever, all of those things. And I was shocked to hear that that was actually like almost universally untrue in the people that I spoke with. Right. And what do we call those? I call them, I'm so mean. I do it with a smile. So I'll talk to leaders who are just like very hands-on. Yeah. And, you know, they're having like a bilat, like one-on-one, like once a month or every two months. And I said, yeah, yeah.

 Oh, yeah. There are some that have like four know or one-on-ones a year anyway i say and then i i talked to him about how they got promoted and how competency becomes key and how trust and all that stuff happens yada yada but i say is it not possible that you're just a truly high functioning individual contributor that has more responsibilities than others totally and they're like fuck i think that's it yeah and it happens a lot so building a coaching culture is getting them to think differently it's the horizontal versus vertical development isn't it so what you know versus how you think so context versus skill yeah for sure yeah context and that's the thing it's like context the vertical development can only be achieved through um through gaining knowledge and in the systems like so the system systemic knowledge and your systemic knowledge can only be gained really through people you know um It's the best way to learn. It's the best way to learn, build context within an organization.

I know there are certain companies now, it's kind of a movement, I think, out of the IT sector in the United States, where they're starting to build talent management ecosystems where the specialist can make as much money as a manager, like a technical expert can make as much money as a manager without having to be a manager. So it used to be like, if you wanted to break the glass ceiling or whatever, in terms of, you know, your, your compensation, you would have to become a manager. That's starting to no longer be the case now, which is really smart. Do you feel that there's going to be um a decline in people wanting to go into management i would assume so yeah i think there are a lot of people that just don't want to be managers but they want to make more money for sure and you and you ask those people like why are you doing this and if you dig enough money money money's there, but you're like, okay, so you've gone into a leadership role. You, you don't feel like you have natural leadership competencies. You don't feel like you have natural leadership traits, skills, and all of those characteristics, but it comes with the money. from the very core into becoming a leader, the organizations kind of like, you know, sponsoring this, like we believe in this person. I'm like, dude, you're so far from where you want to be. Why do you want to do this? And eventually they're like, I just wish I can just focus on like, and they're very like technically skilled people. Like, why are you doing this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can we, can we even, is it, is it worthless to try to create a coaching culture or to transform someone from a technical expert to like a real leader without desire? Is that even remotely possible without desire, without desire? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So a little plug here. So my A7 model. Right.

So I follow literally seven words with that start with the letter A. And it used to be A5 for the record, right? Oh yeah, it's A7. I had to add the seventh one, the seven, because I had, I'll get to it. So the first one was awareness, which, and they're all interchangeable, of course, but awareness, I now know. But attitude, that's the second piece. And attitude could be like our positioning our posture but also our desire so if if you learn something like aka 99.99 percent of horrible bosses don't know it zero percent of people come to me like garen help i suck said no one right and those who need it the most want it the least. I'll say that again. If anyone's listening, those who need coaching the most want it the least. For sure. If you want to know who needs coaching, watch anyone who's resisting or turning their backs to it. Almost every leader who comes to me to get coaching for their team.

And I'm like, are you taking coaching? No, I don't need it right i'll bet you what your red flag which percentage of your clients that like keep wanting more and more and more and you're like dude i wish you were my leader like like you don't need more coaching they're like i want to be better i was like i love you no we need to get you a more important job then you need to have more influence so you can share this with the world yeah exactly that yeah yeah i lost your first question hang on i think my question that you didn't answer from like 30 minutes ago was to give me an example of a company that you worked with okay so um the best example that i'll tell you is you go into an organization and from the very top, you get the buy-in. From the very top, you've got, and this happened more than once, in different sectors where, you know, one or more member of the C-suite shows up before I talk and they do the intro. 

And they tell you why coaching is so important and they tell you how coaching changed their lives and they tell you how coaching helped them get to the c-suite and then they're like and ladies and gentlemen garen i was like sweet that's the best intro ever and we're talking like sometimes multinationals sometimes you know billion dollar corporations and that guy's introducing coaching and you're like, maybe I shouldn't have worn the Hawaiian shirt today. But that's the idea. So you get the full buy in. And just with that, you ask me the sorry and the part I'm going to connect it with. You ask me if if there's no desire, can you get it? Oh, yeah. And the second in a7 is the attitude well when you get your bosses bosses bosses bosses boss who runs the company come up and telling you who you know your manager and the c-suites coming up to you and saying this is important how do you think that impacts your awareness and your attitude oh yeah you sit up you look around you pay attention and yeah their endorsements everything yeah so the ceo or the c-suite showed up and and told you this is important yeah they literally start sitting more straight in their chairs their computers get closed their phones are tucked away they grab their pens they take the caps off their body language changes for the duration of the program so you know it's like it's not even just building a coaching culture i think you're talking about culture period when it's endorsed from the very top yeah everyone follows but if it's a do as i say not as i do as i yeah do as i say not as i do, as I, yeah, do as I say, not as I do, all of a sudden our message becomes not as important because the big boss ain't doing it. Yeah. So what do we do in a case where the boss kind of sucks and won't endorse, you know, they won't endorse it.

The CEO, the top person won't endorse something that you believe is really important in culture changing. Yeah. Are you asking me how my sales pitches go i mean if you want to go there i i i'm i'm so brutal like i wouldn't hire me but they weren't going to hire me anyways so i'll just call out what i see in the moment right yeah i'll literally call them out i'll say you're a do as i say not as i do kind of guy you don't want this for yourself you're asking me what i can do for your organization i kind of feel like it's like going to a dentist and saying what can you do for me like you don't do that right and i'll never go into a meeting selling code you've seen me aaron i don't sell you don't want it i don't care why would i want to sell something to. You don't want it. I don't care. Why would I want to sell something to someone who doesn't want it? Yeah. Why? Trust me. It ain't for the money. There's nothing worse than showing up and having to earn your keep for something someone doesn't want. So even if you're charging almost nothing, they still won't see the value in it. Of course. Yeah.

 So so so that's how my sales pitches go what if you were talking to like a director who really wanted it you know so they really want it they have a budget but they know that their ceo is never gonna come down and talk you know like you know they're they know that the ceo won't endorse it or whatever um but they will. And they're passionate about it. How do you feel about that? That happens at least, I want to say 50% of the time. Yeah. And what I say to that is, it's the ripple effect. If you can infiltrate an organization with one department, that's the subculture piece. What if we can make this department kick ass so much that the entire organization looks and says, what are they doing? Right. So I, I like that one. It's kind of like, um, like, like infiltrating. It's very tactical. I'm like, watch us transform this department.

Watch us transform this team. Watch us transform the leadership within this team and If you can if you can get enough of buying and the results that you're looking for there You know within the organization. It's kind of like a vaccine and you know Any anti-vaxxers there, you know, it's like it's like the the the coaching the the coaching vaccine how's that yeah but that's the idea it's yes yes so what do you do with that you let them know that you can impact an organization as high as the glass ceiling is and that often happens um i work with many organizations where you know the slt the senior leadership will okay a budget for this kind of stuff yeah and then you'll have one or two leaders will opt for it and they make it very like it's not for everyone very small budgets huge companies tiny budgets and you can only work with like senior directors or vps of like this massive organization like seriously that's your budget you have a three thousand dollar budget for this year to help leaders grow sure um so you help this one leader and your job as a coach is to help this leader so much Your job as a coach is to help this leader so much that it transforms the reality. Yes. Your job is to just be the best darn coach you can be. And I'll tell you what happens is that that one leader goes back and tells their friends of what coaching did. And then a few months later, I'll get a call back from HR saying, we got another one and another one and another one. And so that first leader grows to three, four, five, six leaders within an organization working with. It takes time.

 Like there are some organizations I've been with for several years and you know, words getting around and it takes super long, but I, I like to believe that over time with small incremental, you know, impacts, you're going to get to a point where you'll be like, why aren't we doing this for everyone? There absolutely will be a time. How do you, um, how do you influence the, you know, your, you know, your primary contact in terms of like how um how they can or how you could potentially support them in building a coaching culture not just coaching individuals um i think there are opportunities and conversations to talk about there are opportunities and conversations to talk about like sparks moments of magic where you can be like see what we did here what if we had more of that and and you know it rarely has to come from me it's usually them saying i wish we can just do this with the whole organization. I'll get the HR. I've had more than one HR director come to me and be like, please talk to my CEO. He's a monster.

 And I'll say he because they were all he's. But they're like, please help. Please come and speak your truth. And honestly, I've had 0% success when the HR rep is calling SOS and I got to come in and do a sales pitch for that. It won't work. But what it means is that those who have the awareness and the desire, you don't need to sell to them. You're already, it's kind of like saying I have a cavity. It's like the dentist hasn't, doesn't have to sell you his services or their services. It just seems like, would you like me to solve your toothache?

 Um, and so I rarely go in and say, uh, in saying that these might be some pain points and these are some things I can solve for you. I feel like the awareness is already there societally. I feel like coaching has exploded since 2018, 2019. And if you're great at what you do in the organizations, awake enough and internally value it enough to allocate some money to it and time and energy and advocate um become ambassadors of that positive change then okay i don't really have to do more than that so the grassroots culture change it sounds like is probably the most effective then yeah yeah yeah grassroots ideas especially if you have that glass ceiling that you're talking about yeah yeah yes yeah it may have to be but correct me if i'm wrong i feel like there's been such a huge burst with regards to culture in organizations with regards to toxic management with regards to coaching and its positive impacts the human side of of business and how it impacts the results positively i like to believe that most ce CEOs are well aware of coaching and it's possible and it's positive outcomes. I just don't know if I remember the part where I said those who wanted, wanted the least needed the most. Yeah.

It's about the, it's the self-awareness piece. I think CEOs, if you're listening, I don't think you understand yourself and your organization well enough. Sometimes, especially when what you think, but what other people say are two different things. Yeah. So I'll, I'll talk to the CEO and the, and it's, it's about external self-awareness. So internal self-awareness, how well I understand myself external, how well I understand how other people perceive me. Right. So both awarenesses I think might be off so the ceo might think we don't have a problem or at least not not a deeply rooted one and so we might think it might have to be topical it might be an ego thing it might be the survival i think in a lot of cases was that i think it's i think it's survival in a lot of cases you know survival of the ego survival of the company um you know a lot of people especially ceos don't really want to admit what's really going on under the hood because that means that they have to acknowledge it um and then probably take some kind of action towards it so yeah aren't we now coming close to um we've had this chat about umism, validation, I'm good enough. But if I'm a CEO, and I have to admit that I'm flawed, or I'm not perfect, what happened? Yeah. It's like, it's coming really close to imposter syndrome. But this is exactly what a coaching culture helps deconstruct, right? It helps us feel safe to learn, my God, like we are whole people. We are each perfectly imperfect, right?

And, you know, I think having a coaching culture just helps us really understand that like, I'm whole, or I could be, you are too, right? And what are we going to do together now, now that we've established that we're both imperfect, you know, how do we move forward? Uh, I, I saw, I saw a celebrity wear a t-shirt. I like, I just said flawed human. Right. And, um, I had told you, I went through like two years of rehab of, uh, like I was like, I was a perfectionist and it was ruining my life. And, um, I'm not, I'm not cured, but, uh, I'm, I'm now accepting and being very okay with the fact that not only am I not perfect, but I'm now accepting and being very okay with the fact that not only am I not perfect but I'm like extremely flawed and it's liberating so it's like I teach public speaking right and they're like how do you do how do you prep for like an eight hour monologue you know right I'm like you can't really you can't so so how do you do it and I get on stage and whether I say it or not, I think my opening line is and always will be, I stand before you a flawed human being. I'm imperfect and hopefully perfectly imperfect.

And I hope that that gives you the permission to allow yourself to be imperfect with me. Yeah. Now we begin. i don't you know there's there's there's two foundational pieces that helped me through that i know we're going i swear we're not going too off off road here one um the more i learned the more i realized i don't know much i know nothing at all i believe is your quote yeah and what's the second one realize I don't know much. I know nothing at all, I believe is your quote. Yeah. And what's the second one? It's don't believe everything you think. Oh, 100%. Right. Which is great, because now my brain's not always my friend. Sometimes it's my foe. So even when I'm on stage and I'm the subject matter expert, I'll literally show up and be like, whatever's on my slides, it's what I know now. I might be wrong tomorrow.

So challenge me. If you find a hole in it, let's talk about it. And I'm not going to say I'm right. I'm just going to be, maybe. And the word maybe has gone, it's just so liberating so imagine if you're a ceo and you're saying this is what i know now what don't i know the awareness the first a it's what don't i know and accepting the reality that there's a lot of stuff you don't know there's a lot of stuff you probably suck at and just by admitting to it is very liberating and the world is have a work transforming so quickly that it's impossible anyway. So stop trying. I can't keep up. No, it's like I make myself every time I, I'm like, this is how it is. The next day I'm a liar. I swear to God. Exactly. So I'm right until I'm wrong. Yeah.

 So coming back to the CEO, imposter syndrome, insecurity might come in. Ego might comeoster syndrome uh insecurity might come in ego might come in survival might come in um perfectionism might come in results over people might come in um it's rarely a money thing when you when you look at the investment for establishing a coaching culture if i mean i don't want to throw numbers but it's really not that expensive. If your company is generating $100 million and all you have to do is invest $100,000 for like a year worth of training for like, I don't know, 100 people. Yeah. Right. What's the price per head? A thousand bucks. Try going to university and studying. Try going anywhere to study. It's like every certificate is like five to 10 grand now. Totally. Well, and what this does, yeah. And what this does, like creating this coach mindset is creating, really is creating that beginner mindset, that growth mindset that you're looking for. So that people will learn how to learn faster, you know?

Anyways, I think this has been a phenomenal conversation uh thank you very much sir for joining me uh us perfectly imperfect beings uh and i was thinking about when you said um imperfect human on a t-shirt i was like can't we just sum that up to like human we can just simplify that to human yeah yes yes uh the the misconception is that humans can be perfect which is quite egotistical i like to do a quick plug though yeah there's a movie okay i love because you said beginner's mindset yes and the movie is about getting to like black belt or perceived mastery. Okay. Realizing that true mastery, you need to that whole unlearning thing and coming back to white belt, that beginner's mindset. And the movie is Jet Li's fearless. Okay. So well done. I need to watch it. Watch what happens when Jet Li becomes the master, but then when he falls to true mastery, it's, it's amazing. And honestly, I like to, I base a lot of what I do, hoping to get to that tabula rasa, the blank sleep. Beautiful. I'm not there yet. Maybe someday.

Thanks Erin.

Thanks Garen. maybe someday

Thanks Erin

Thanks Garen

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!

With over 20 years of experience in talent management and organizational effectiveness, Founder of Stay and author of a book with the same title, Kelly MacCallum brings passion, energy, and a depth of expertise in enhancing leaders, cultures, and teams. With her practices grounded in science and data, Kelly drops gems on creating a workplace culture that employees will never want to leave!

Stay in Touch:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/kellymaccallum

Purchase Kelly's book today, and transform the workplace culture tomorrow:

https://www.amazon.ca/Stay-Create-culture-theyll-leave/dp/B0CZBGY3PT

Script:

How you make people feel is everything.

 Culture isn't the CEO. The culture isn't HR. The culture isn't one leader. The culture is the collective personality of the organization. And you have a part to play in that.

When organizations figure out how to take that and tap into that into the workplace, you know, you have the potential to be doing some really powerful things. We're responsible for culture. It's like, no, everyone's responsible for culture. Nice try though.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And I'm super happy to have Kelly McCallum on the show. Kelly, say hello. With over 20 years of experience in talent management and organizational effectiveness, founder of Stay, and the author of the book with the same name, Kelly McCallum Brings Passion, Energy, and a Depth of Experience in Enhancing Leaders, Cultures, and Teams. And we have some really juicy content, I think, that we're going to talk about today.

So Kelly, before we get started, I just want to tell everyone that I am a huge fan of yours, and I have been for about six months. I feel like a lot of the content, the stories, you're such a good storyteller and the stuff that you share just speaks right to my soul because I know it's so complicated, the world of work, but you have such like an honesty in the way that you speak.

 Well, thank you so much, Erin. Thank you for having me today. I am like super passionate about this topic and I'm a passionate human in general. So, you know, I think that authenticity that you see, like, I think it's just me. It's just the way I am. So, you know, I'm glad it comes through in my writing because it's, you know, it's who I am. So really, really pleased to be here to chat with you today. Fantastic. So for those of you who, for the people who don't know Kelly, tell me who is Kelly? Kelly is a enthusiast that wants to make work lives better. I think, you know, all of us, you know, put in all these hours to work for these organizations or ourselves. And, you know, I think, you know, we spend so much time doing it, but so many organizations really fail at making it anywhere near as satisfying as it can be.

I don't think it's a hard thing. I think it's just an intention thing. And, you know, over time, companies just get complacent, and they do the same things the same ways, and they just don't stop to think that there's a better way. So I kind of exist on this platform to help people see that there's a better way and just kind of challenge some maybe traditional thinking when it comes to workplace culture. Totally. And some of the stories that you share, I think really do a good job highlighting that. One of the ones I think that I saw recently was you mentioned that some of the best jobs that you have or that you had or the best job that you ever had was the worst possible interview experience. It was totally a leap of faith. I loved that. I was like, yes, this is basically the same. I have the same experience for sure.

Well, it's so funny because you hear all these universal truths and advice on LinkedIn. If you ever have a bad recruiting process, absolutely don't take that job. I mean, that's terrible advice because maybe the recruiter's having a bad day. Maybe somebody in the background's hurting their process. It could have nothing to do with the hiring manager, has nothing to do with the role. So I mean, yeah, they could be red flags, but like, I think there's just more to it. And I think a lot of it's very nuanced. And so I like to use the stories, you know, to validate my own perceptions and to question my own perceptions and to question the perceptions of others as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And especially when you're working, if you like that, like creative work, you like working with founders, you like to have autonomy in your work. And a lot of people on this podcast who listen to this podcast are those people, you know, they're the weirdos in the workplace. Right. I don't actually think they're so weird, though. I think it's actually pretty common. I'm sure we'll get into this in a sec. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's like, we feel like maybe we feel like weirdos or growing up, you know, we felt like outsiders at some point. And then we come into the workplace, and we sometimes don't always fit. Sometimes we fit better in a creative environment, you know, and that always, I don't think that always goes as smoothly. It's a little bit more chaotic sometimes.

 Yeah. Chaos is okay. I always say embrace attention. Yeah, for sure. Embrace attention. I love that. Okay. So when I was stalking you on LinkedIn, I pulled out three questions that you said that you basically had tons of experience in. And what you said specifically was, I know what inspires employees. I know what drives them crazy and I know what it takes to keep them. And so that's what we're going to talk about today is what inspires employees, what drives them crazy and what does it take to keep them. Obviously knowing the diversity of human experiences, not everyone we can paint with the same brush, but if we are generalizing a little bit, trying to stay balanced and using our experience as a guide, what inspires employees? I think humans are remarkably consistent. It's in our biology. So there are certain things that tends to drive our behavior. And there's something very powerful called intrinsic motivation. And you hear about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. And all that really means is that people are motivated to do something just because of the result or because it feels good, not because you're going to get a tap on the back or a paycheck for it.

 So when that like when that desire, like is driving our behavior, like tapping into that's like just so important. So, you know, again, there's sort of a science behind it. And, you know, I'm far from the first person to ever talk about this, right? I think originally, Abraham Maslow talked about it in 1943. And he had a book on motivation and personality. And he talks about this hierarchy of needs. And I'll get to that in a second. But then later in the mid 2000s, a guy named Dan Pink wrote a book called Drive. And that book, like it's probably the most impactful book that I've ever read, like my favorite business book by far, because it speaks to the power of intrinsic motivation. Now, he doesn't go in and tie it together with workplace behaviors.

But all of my theory and all of my insights all come from linking intrinsic motivation to the workplace and the work of Maslow. So if you think about Maslow's pyramid, most of them have, most people have studied this in school. If you haven't, I'll do like my quick, my quick diagram on this. At the very, like the whole thing about that is what drives humans. There's like a, there's like an order of things. So, you know, before you can get into, you know, self-actualization and all these inspirational things at the very base of his pyramid, he talks about physiological needs. So if you think about that in the workplace, like if you're not making enough money to feed your family, it doesn't really matter what else is going on in the organization. All you're going to think about is I don't make enough money to feed my family, right? So it's foundational. We need to know we're going to have the basic provisions of life.

Second on that pyramid is safety. And so in work, that could, if you're a manufacturing plant, that could be safety on the floor. But in most workplaces these days, I would define that as psychological safety. And so in order for you to feel like you can do anything at work and be intrinsically motivated, you need to have a safe environment. That means your manager can't be a bully. That means you need to feel safe to say what's on your mind. You need to feel like your peers aren't making fun of you. So those things are very, very important.

So once you have those two sort of foundational pieces out of the way, they don't matter anymore, right? That takes the idea of money off the table. So money is not necessarily a motivator, but money is very important. So you can't, you know, you got to keep that in mind. But then when you get into the other pieces of Maslow's pyramid, it's belonging, it's achievement. And this is where it starts to align with Dan Pink stuff. And Dan Pink would say that the three intrinsic motivators are autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I would throw in their sense of belonging, because I think that's very important, especially in the era that we're in today, because that really speaks to inclusion, diversity, and equity. 

So when I talk about autonomy, it's about being able to choose where, when, and how you work. So that whole flexibility thing. So the more that we're entrusted and empowered, more that drives us to want to work. And I think that's why you see so many people getting hyped about remote work these days, right? It's like the whole argument about remote work. The reason remote work is so compelling is because you're providing your employees with autonomy. And when you do that, you tap into that intrinsic motivation. And so if there's like, there's a million good reasons for remote work, but that to me is the main one. So if you can give your people that kind of flexibility, it's really worth your while to do so, because we know that engaged and inspired employees drive business results.

So even if you're a miserable person, you don't care about your people, like you should care about your people because they drive your business results. So even if you're a miserable person, you don't care about your people, like you should care about your people because they drive your business results. So profitability goes up, productivity goes up, revenues go up, customer satisfaction goes up. So all these things are like super important. So leveraging these intrinsic motivators is pretty much everything. So, and we have mastery and mastery is all about learning and growing, right? Having that sense of accomplishment.

So, you know, it's like people say, well, why do people play video games for hours? Right? It's like they don't get paid for it. Right? What is it about it? It's mastery. Like it's addictive, right? So if you can bring that sense into the workplace, that's super powerful, right? And then there's purpose. And, you know, this whole Simon purpose. And you know, this whole Simon Sinek, you know, you know, people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it, right? So a sense of purpose. And you see this a lot in areas like healthcare, you know, somebody you ask anybody who in their right mind wants to work in healthcare right now? Well, they're driven by a sense of purpose.

 And that's why they do it. Right. So when you bring those three things together, and when organizations figure out how to take that and tap into that into the work you know you have the potential to be doing some really powerful things oh you sure do um i mean it sounds simple but i know like when you get in there and you're in the trenches it's not so simple right well no because we don't prioritize it people get all caught up on they just get caught up on the same old, same old. It's like, oh, we've got to do leadership development training and we've got to do this and we've got to do that.

 And, you know, they don't stop and think about like what's inspiring. I mean, a good example of that is, God, the most archaic thing to exist that's, you know, it existed back in the early 90s and probably further back, probably the 50s, is the annual performance review. Nothing, there is nothing in the HR world that is more archaic and ineffective, but still so pervasively used. And they do it because they don't stop to think about another way of doing it. Yeah, it's an afterthought. It's like, oh, we just have to take care of it once a year. And if that, like... Yeah, this is just how we do things, right? For some reason, for that one thing, nobody has stopped to think, why should we not do this? This is really ineffective.

 Or some companies have, but it's, you know, the big challenge with that is coupling performance with compensation. And by doing that, you make things very rigid, when, you know, rigidity is not really what inspires people. No, I would say maybe we could bump the 100 question employee engagement survey into the same category, you know, for large companies, like, well, I feel like there's better ways we can do things, you know, that are actually going to achieve some results here. What would you recommend for a company that's looking to transition away from the annual performance review? I mean, continuous performance management is, is like, that's where you're going to see better performance, right? So you do something management is like, that's where you're going to see better performance, right?

 So you do something in the moment that's great, I tell you it's great, you're going to do it again. If you do something that's not so great, I still need to tell you, and sometimes leaders find that hard. But if you make like feedback part of your culture, and you start doing this on the regular, and like, the other thing about that is leaders asking employees for the feedback. So, you know, maybe you bring me in to chat about how you thought I could have done better in a certain way. And you give me that feedback and then I might give you some feedback and say, well, you know, had you supported me in a different way, you know, that we might have done a much better job together. And so there's like a mutual accountability. It's a conversation. It's not this once a year call to the principal's office where you're given a grade. Right. So and then you learn in the moment what you need to do to adapt. And then you don't have to deal with things like recency bias, right? Like how many leaders at the end of the year, they're like, okay, we've got to do your annual review for your 20 people. And so they're freaking out because they've got deadlines. They've got to write goals for these 20 people.

 In two weeks after you write these goals, you've forgotten the goals that you've written, right? Because that's the type of, that's just the type of process it is. HR hates it because they have to herd the cats. Nobody loves it. But what works really well is this, you know, regular feedback cycle. And it's just something we need to practice, right? Yeah. I always like to, there's a lot of, I feel like there's a lot of responsibilities that HR believes they're accountable for, that it's really the, the manager's accountability. Yeah. Yeah. And leaders love to put it on HR. You're responsible for culture. It's like, no, everyone's responsible for culture. Nice try though. Totally. Yeah. So what are you seeing is like the trends in terms of employee retention? Like you wrote a book called stay, you know, which is about what, and I think you are like that is the most important thing for companies we need to keep people I just I don't think leaders understand how much it costs a company when people leave it's crazy what it costs right and I mean and I've got this I've got this fantastic like pdf that I downloaded from LinkedIn. It's something that LinkedIn put together with Gallup and it's the cost of disengagement and it's the cost of losing talent.

 And it's, it's exorbitant. Like it's so much money. And if people were far more proactive in, you know, understanding what their people want and don't want, they could like save so much money. Like it takes itty bitty investment, but it saves them. It would save them so much money and so much intellectual knowledge walking out of their company, right? Like it's just, it's- The history, the whole history of the company, it's the culture of the company that's leaving every time someone leaves. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I've done over 1500 exit and stay interviews in my lifetime. So I've got the voices of all these people rattling around in my head, right? I've also conducted like 1000s of employee surveys. So I literally, you know, I go to sleep at night, and I hear these voices saying, why do they do this? And it's always the same thing. So when people leave people, I was like, oh, people leave for money, or they leave for a promotion. That's not why they leave.

 They leave because they don't feel valued. And that's different. It sounds the same, but it's not the same. Because when you don't feel valued, it can be about not having your ideas heard. It can be that you're micromanaged. It may be that you found out that the more junior guy who was just hired, who has less experience and isn't as good at you at your job is making more money than you. Like that's not about compensation, right? That's about how you've made someone feel. It's like being passed up for a promotion. It's when your leader takes credit for your work. It's being disrespected from your colleagues. How you make people feel is everything, right? So that's what it comes down to, right? When people leave, it's, I mean, sometimes they leave for more money.

Sometimes it's just that. It's it's usually sales people so I think like sales people I think they're like the exception to Maslow's pyramid there's just some people that are just super wired to care about money right and that's why we like them as sales people you know that's why they make great sales that's why they make that's why not everybody does it right but yeah they're a different breed but they're you know but they're they're they're they're very driven by money and because of that they they achieve great things but that's actually backwards to what uh the research dan pink um talked about because they did work with london school of economics and mit and they actually proved that trying to incent people with money actually decreases their performance. Money is not a motivator. It's actually a demotivator. And it all has to do with performance stress, like not being your most creative, best self. So highly recommend that book. Like I can't recommend it enough to anybody because it does talk about those studies and what people learned about using money as a motivator because it's not what you think. Might be time for a reread. It's been many years since I read that. Yeah, yeah. And it stuck with me. It's funny how certain books just do that, right? That one. Yeah, that one's right there. So yeah, what can you do to keep them? Well, that's where my book comes in somewhat. So I'll give myself a shameless plug. But it's not what you think.

Like the book, I actually wrote the book. I had no intention of writing a book. So there was a client of mine who was on a budget. And so I was trying to figure out how to work with them. And I thought, oh, I'll do all these how-to guides. I'll create all these how-to guides that I can use with future customers. And then I'll just, you know, sign them on for some coaching. We can work through the resources. So I did a bunch of them. I did one on stay interviews and I did one on micromanagement and leadership and whatnot. But then I got to how to create a culture. And I thought, oh, this is going to be one of the longer ones.

It'll probably be at least 10 pages. And then I kept writing and then I kept writing and then I kept writing. And the next thing you know, I had this 150 page document. I'm like,'t a guide this is a book and so a friend of mine looked at me and said it is a book I'm like yeah but I'm not an author like what happened what happened with that I had a good friend of mine Leslie she uh she helped me uh you know add some more color and stories to it but if when you read it it, it sounds like a guide, it's because that's exactly what it was written as, as a guide. And it's all about, you know, creating a very intentional culture.

 Again, like, so starting with purpose, like, what is the purpose of your organization, you know, and then defining values that are legitimately the values that align with your organization and how you want to do things and like not doing them because of the right things like everybody drives me nuts there's like the same list of values integrity and it's like okay like who's who's who's not running on integrity right like and you think about uh well you it's funny but you think they're not going to tell you that you know but you're putting it on the wall and it's like come on like that's a terrible that's a terrible value unless you can really be like you know that should it on the wall and it's like, come on. Like, that's a terrible, that's a terrible value.

Unless you can really, like, you know, that should just be the benchmark. That should be like, that's not a value. That's like, like level playing field. Right. But if you think about it, like Enron back in, I don't remember, was it 80s, 90s, whatever that happened, like they had these like golden values. Integrity was one of them. And these guys like were embezzling money and fraud and all of this stuff. You're like, okay, your values, your values were kind of meaningless guys. But, but then you get the opposite. You get a culture like Zappos. Now we don't like in Canada, we don't know a lot about them because they're a shoe company from the States, but we hear about, we hear about their culture because their culture was so revolutionary until Amazon bought them and kind of destroyed everything, which is kind of what happens. But the guy who originated Zappos, he just thought very differently.

And one of their values was deliver wow service. That's pretty clear what that means. If I'm an employee, if I hear deliver wow service, there's like not really a lot of different ways to interpret that. And I had a personal experience with Zappos. I bought a pair of shoes from them a number of years ago now, must have been a long time ago now. And I ordered the wrong size. Okay, so I get these shoes in the mail to the wrong size. And I hate that because it was my brand and I just made a mistake, right? Well, so I called them, I thought, I'll call them. But the first thing that was cool was when I got onto their website, the number to call was prominent. Right. That's so I called them. I thought, oh, I'll call them. But the first thing that was cool was when I got onto the website, the number to call was prominent. Right. That's interesting. That's different. And then when I called within two rings, I got a human being. Hmm. What? What? Like, what's like, oh, hi. And I'm like, oh, this is my predicament.

 My shoes, my size, whatever. And they're like, no problem. What size do you need? It's like, I need, I need the six and a half. a half okay cool we're going to send those to you right away and they said when you get time you can send back the other shoes we'll send you a slip and and and you know uh you just got to drop them off at the at the mail i'm like so you're not gonna bill me twice and do this refund no no no and i'm like wow there you have it wow right. Right. So deliver wow service. I'm like, they need it. So when I hear other organizations cite customer satisfaction as one of their values, I'm like, Zappos can say that because they deliver on it. But what are you doing to deliver wow to your customers? Right. I just have a thing like that just popped in my brain that I just have to say. And it's like, you couldn't have that ethos. What they did there, it's like something that I like to talk about, which is let's assume that people are generally good, you know? Yes. Assume that people are generally good and like work from that as a foundational, like, you know, principle. Just be a good human. Assume that other people are good humans.

 Are there going to be people who like take advantage of it? Yeah, but not most of them. Sure, you know, and then we can do the things that are right. If we make that presumption, if we presume that people are generally evil and wanting to take advantage of us, you know, we're going to build a whole culture and a whole company that's based on different kinds of principles. Yeah, and that's not where I don't think anybody wants to be there, right? Well, and you know what? Look, maybe that's a valid thing. Like, look to your customer service policies, you know? Well, everything, right? That's the thing about your values. Like, they've got to be entrenched in everything you do. So, you know, there's the whole exercise that organizations have to go with to start with, where do we even start about what our values are?

You've got to figure out what they are. You've got to figure out what it means because sometimes like like a lot of organizations really like these one word values i'm not a fan of them because like when you have one word like transparency like as an employee when i see transparency that could mean you tell me what everybody else is making you tell me about every single you know financial decision the company's making. When maybe what the company means is we're going to be transparent in the why we make decisions. Right. So if you don't define what that is, then people kind of, you know, make up their own truth. So it's really important that your employees understand what the values mean so that they can live them out. That's why Zappos was clever. They were easy. They didn't have behavior statements. They just, they just said things like deliver while service. Right. Right. Yeah. We can interpret that, but there's only so many ways we can interpret that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And you know, those people were empowered. Like if they had like, I guarantee you, if I, I don't know, for whatever reason, I wasn't happy with how they answered my question. I bet you, if I started making demands, like, well, I want you to send me two pairs of shoes, they probably would. Yeah. It's a silly, it's a silly notion, but you know, it feels like, it feels like they're that kind of organization or they were, they were. You feel respected, you know, nobody wants to buy from someone who you feel disrespected by. Absolutely. So what does it take to keep our employees? We are in a very challenging climate right now. There's been a lot of downsizing. I don't think there's very much trust in the world right now between, you know, AI, generative AI. We don't know who's who or what's what, what's the truth.

 I think the, you know, obviously the economy is very challenging for a lot of people politics is fracturing a lot of families even communities um so i'm seeing like really low trust environment what would you recommend to an organization who you know they they want to keep their employees they value their employees well if you want to value your employees you listen to what they have to say right so you don't know what you don't know. I think that's a Taylor Swift line, isn't it? Yeah, you don't know what you don't know. But yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people make assumptions, even with engagement surveys, right? So you ask your people for all this feedback, and you get all this data. And then I've done this where you present the data to an executive team, and they go, I know why that's like that. And they go off and you're thinking, well, that's not it at all. When I read the comments, that's not what I'm picking up from that. So there's like a bias that they think that they know what the problem is. And this is where self-awareness is such a problem, right? 95% of people think they're self-aware when only maybe about 10% of us are right. So all of that creates bias.

And then they, they create these overcomplicated action plans and that never make an impact. And they wonder why it's like, well, because you really didn't listen. Like you did kind of, but you didn't do it in the right way. And every person and every organization is very unique. So, you know, what is happening in that organization at that time? What stories are your employees telling? Like, what are the legends and like, what are the truths that they're spreading around to create this culture and to create the system of beliefs? You need to understand what those are. And if you don't have trust, you don't have anything. So you need to find out, like, first and foremost, do your employees trust you? If they don't, nothing else that you do is going to matter. Literally nothing else that you do will matter. Like they have to, they have to trust you. And that's the safety. That's part of that. It's part of the pyramid. Like that's the foundation. You take that, you take that foundation off and everything kind of tumbles. Yeah. Right. So you're right. And it's tough because we've got layoffs, right?

Like organizations are doing layoffs en masse and they i mean i mean i get it they have to they're under pressure from you know inflated costs and shareholders demanding value i mean this is a capitalist society we live in they they have to make profits so layoffs come with that and it sucks and it's there's like a human element to it but it makes the people who are left behind very nervous right like it's like oh am i going to be next why did they do that like they told us we were good they told us they weren't good and so now you have a really fractured uh organization who's going to take some time to heal and until that trust comes back you can't expect these people to be, you know, engaged and inspired and, you know, full of purpose and in all of this, right? Like you have to deal with, you have to deal with the issue at hand. And you do that by being transparent, right? This is what happened. Take ownership of what happened. Tell them what you're going to do to make sure that that doesn't happen again. Build trust, keep communicating, keep being transparent, right?

Authentic. Employees can sense disingenuous personality a mile away, right? They know if you're full of it. Like, so don't try to be full of it. Just be real. That's what people want, right? Yeah, throw your cards for sure. Exactly. Would you say there's any hope for a company if this CEO, if people generally sense that the CEO is untrustworthy? I mean, it depends on the organization. It's hard because the CEO drives the culture. But I have seen leaders create really strong microcultures, if you will, right? So they can insulate their team from it to a certain extent. But I mean, largely the CEO will, I mean, at the end of the day, depending on how involved they get on that particular team and whatever, you know, it can undo it quite well. But I have seen these microcultures actually positively impact greater culture, right? So you Yeah, so you get this team who operates in a certain way and it changes around all the people around them.

 And so you get like almost like a grassroots culture. Right. So that's really cool when that happens. But yeah, ultimately I think the senior executive CEO, especially like they gotta be, they gotta be legit. And if they're causing trust issues, you're probably going to have people leaving in droves. Yeah. Yeah. I think the microculture thing is very interesting because I see this a lot with clients. I get people who are, you know, senior level managers, low level executives coming and saying like, I need to make a change. Like there's, there's like something critically wrong, blah, blah, blah. It's cultural. They want to do something, but then there's only so much they can influence upward right well they can and that's the thing like i i also want to encourage leaders not to take that victim's mindset and stop saying oh i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this like yeah but what can you do like you can talk to your people you can do a stay interview with your people you can find out exactly what they love about their job and why they stay and what it might take for them to leave and you might be surprised on what it is that might make them leave it might actually be very much in your control right it might not have nothing to do with the you know the fact that the ceo's uh you know not a very trustworthy character right like it could not be that at all but if you're like if you're smart list again, it's all about listening, listening and action. I know it sounds simple.

Listen, act. And if you're not going to act, don't pretend like you're listening, because that just makes things worse. Right? Completely. It's so true. Okay, so yeah, so that's good. So tell me a little bit about your book. Are you planning on going on a grand tour? What's going going on are you going to create a workshop from it are you going to write another book I don't I don't have any I have like like I said the book kind of wrote itself and then someone convinced me to publish it and then a bunch of people bought it and you're like oh that's interesting I thought might like you know your friends always buy your book because they're nice like that but like I've actually sold a lot more copies of it than I thought I would so that's fun and I'm getting some good feedback which is great um but you know like I haven't planned workshops I haven't planned any talks um I like it's it's kind of there if I want to though like I know I could build a talk on it because I could you know I could literally talk about intrinsic motivation for for hours and it's in there it's part of it and you know how it all plays in with how to create a good culture it's all baked into the book um i would love to do i actually would love to do a book on leaders creating microcultures because inspiring leaders right like they can they can do so much good right and there's so much like again as much as there's so much that's out of your hands there's so much that is in your hands and god you just got to realize it and so that might be I don't know, that might be the next one. I think that would be a fantastic book.

Honestly, one of the things that I'm concerned me is the number of women leaders that are leaving the workplace to try to start their own business or actually start their own businesses. actually start their own businesses, either becoming consultants or, you know, doing something freelance and just like piecing out of the workplace completely because they're tired. Well, yeah. Frustrated, right? Well, there's lots going on there, right? There's, first of all, there's moms, right? So like there's so much responsibility in having a families. And if an organization has not embraced a flexible workplace culture, whether that's flex hours or remote work, I think about like, I think about my daughter, like she's, you know, she's, she's 30. And she's been working for a few years now, when she first started working, what was really important to her was going into the office and meeting her friends and having a coffee and all of that. And then COVID hit and she had like two kids in COVID.

And then all of a sudden it's like, I don't know how I would manage like dropping the kids off at daycare, picking them up. And if I didn't have this ability to work from home. So she's really lucky. She's got a great employer. They have a remote policy, flexible work. And as a mom, that is a game changer, right? So, you know, whatever else she gets frustrated with, with this organization, like she knows she's got it really good. And this is a really high priority for her. And then, you know, I think, I think we're doing better in terms of equality in leadership. I think at least with women, I think we have a lot of work to do with, you know, all the other employee resource groups. That's like a conversation for another, for another day.

 But, you know, I think, I think women have really held their own. But yeah, they have additional challenges, especially when they, when they have families. Yeah. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. I feel like we could keep talking for hours, but is there anything that you wanted to like, if there's like one more, what's like one thing that you want everyone to know about, about this topic? Well, I think, you know, culture is everything. I mean, there's that old Peter Drucker culture eats strategy for breakfast. Like the, I was watching a, a talk from Collision Conference and one of the CEOs there, he's from a company called BenchSci.

He was saying, culture doesn't eat strategy for breakfast. Culture eats everything for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And what his point was, like everything impacts, like culture impacts everything. Like if you blow it in one area, it can completely destroy your company. So if you don't nurse your culture, your organization will suffer. Like big companies have, you know, gone out of business because of cultural issues. Right. And so it's really important. We used to think of it as soft and fluffy and HRE and all of that. It's like culture is powerful. And I think that's what like every, everyone needs to know that. And everybody needs to know that they have a place in culture because the culture isn't the CEO. The culture isn't HR. The culture isn't one leader. The culture is the collective personality of the organization. And you have a part to play in that. Yeah, absolutely. Culture. What was I going to say? Culture is the best survival tool. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, like, yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's everything around you, everything, it's your community, everything around you defines what you do. Right. And you can be in culture is interesting. Like, I think I had a post about this the other day.

Like, you can be in cultures. Interesting. Like I think I had a post about this the other day. Like you can be in one culture and do the exact same thing that you do in another culture and have completely different results. I remember Simon Sinek talking about a story of running into two different baristas. I can't remember where he was, but he was talking about like the barista at one coffee shop was like really excited and, you know, gregarious and doing great customer service. And apparently that barista had the same job at another, like another store. And he saw the same guy at the other store and the guy was discouraged, demoralized, not friendly. And he was like, what's up with this? And of course, it's like, well, in this environment, I'm empowered. You know, in this environment, I'm not, I'm not recognized, right?

So exact same person, same skill set, two different cultures. Yeah. And everyone wants to actualize their potential. So you want to be somewhere, you know, that nurtures that for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Well, how can people, uh, get in touch with you because you're awesome and everyone should follow you. Well, follow me on LinkedIn, Kelly McCallum, MAC. Um, uh, you can, you know, read the book if it's interesting to you.

 I think I will warn you, it's a step-by-step guide on how to create a culture. So this is not like a book full of, you know, lots of, you know, super ideas. It's like, it's really a how-to guide. So this is not like a book full of, you know, lots of, you know, super ideas. It's like, it's really a how to guide. So that's, that's what it is. And so if you're looking even as a leader to build a microculture, it's a really good place to start.

The book is available on Amazon, all countries. Yeah. And again, like if you, anyone wants to chat anytime, questions about what I'm saying, just send me a DM on LinkedIn. Happy to chat. Awesome. And I will post all of those things in the notes, in the notes for the podcast on all the platforms. You'll have easy access to Kelly at all times.

Sounds great.

Thanks, Kelly.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Learn more about our new project: https://trainedtohelp.com/

Connect with Erin on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell

Script:

An entrepreneur is someone who jumps off a cliff and builds a plane on the way down. Hooey. Yeah, he is absolutely bang on.

You cannot do it by yourself. You need a whole team around you.

If you're in Ontario, I would highly recommend, you know, reaching out to your local community futures development corporations or CFDCs, because they have quite a bit of support that might be able to help you.

Today on Weirdos in the Workplace, I want to talk a little bit about becoming an entrepreneur. And I really don't mean becoming a business owner and I don't mean becoming a solopreneur or a independent consultant. I do mean becoming an entrepreneur and growing a business. business. Growing a business, I have learned, is very, very different when it comes to entrepreneurship versus growing a business incrementally and slowly over time. Entrepreneurship is, at least from my experience so far, much more intentional, much more strategic, and much more growth oriented.

I think until last October, I wouldn't have even really called myself an entrepreneur. I would have called myself a business owner. And then before that, of course, I was an employee in my previous role. And before that, I would have been self-employed. I would have called it being self-employed, which again, is not the same thing as being an entrepreneur. I think entrepreneurial people take significantly more risks. So that's something that I'm still kind of getting used to. And then my husband who is much more risk averse than I am is starting to get used to this idea that, you know, this is going to be a significant time, money and energy investment for both of us, since he's one of the co-founders for the train to hell project. But let me tell you the story a little bit. 

So back in October, 2023, so we're looking at what was like eight months ago now, about eight months ago, because we're now into June, early June 2024. My, my team member, Sarah, who is a friend of mine since grade five, my first friend, if you've listened to some of the podcasts before, I've mentioned her a few times, my first real friend, Sarah, who is now my team member, who is now my co-founder. She has a partner named Tim who is, he's in a wheelchair. He's now quadriplegic. He had MS, was diagnosed with MS, muscular sclerosis, when he was about 33, 32, 33 years old. And so Tim's case progressed quite quickly. Within about four years, he's in a wheelchair and now he is currently paraplegic. So I've been hearing stories about how Tim and Sarah, you know, try to get around the world and how challenging that is. I've been hearing these stories for quite a long time because they've been together for, I believe, around seven years now, something like that. And it's, you know, it's a struggle for me to hear it because I want good things for them and I'm their friend. It's obviously a huge struggle for them. And one of the major issues was that, you know, even though she's good at doing the research and asking around, a lot of employees at retail locations, if they want to go out for, you know, lunch, or if they just want to go to the store, unless it's a large store, like a big box store, the employees usually don't know.

They don't, they're not informed. They don't have the education. They don't have the training to understand, you know, what is, if their location is actually accessible, you know, how they can accommodate different types of people. So it's a really big challenge for them. And it's a challenge that is, you know, common across many, many, many disability categories. Basically anyone who has a challenge moving around the world in any way. And now we know that, you know, the last in 2022, the statistics came out from Stats Canada, indicating that 27% of the population of Canada, 15 years of age and older, has at least one disability that makes it difficult for them to move around the world or to interact with the world, the physical world.

And so this was kind of in the back of our minds. And Sarah was part of the, or is part of the Accessibility Committee in the town of Carlton Place. This is where we live. And she, you know, learned that there was a business owner in town who had had kind of like a negative feedback from someone with a disability when they came to the location of their cafe. And the person with a disability learned that it really wasn't as accessible as it had been promoted to be. So this is a really big issue because, you know, we want people to be able to, we care about people, you know, we care about customer service. Retailers know that customer service is everything, especially nowadays, because if you're not going to do it well, guess what? Someone else will. And so having spectacular customer service, knowledgeable team members who can serve all of your customers with dignity, respect, and transparency is really, really important. But the very big issue is, you know, there's so much information to learn here. 

So what we're doing with the Train to Help project is we're shining a really big light on this and we're creating really interesting online learning for people who are required by law to learn about disabilities and how to serve people with disabilities in the workplace, because we do have something in Ontario called the AODA, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. And they've got a customer service standard, and that customer service standard requires employees to be trained on the AODA. And there's very specific requirements there. So I know this sounds all very probably technical, but suffice to say, we want people with disabilities to be able to move around the world with more trust, to trust that they can explore the world, that it's safe to explore the world and that they'll be accommodated. And they know where they're going to be accommodated. So that's the whole goal of the project. Well, and why me, I guess I could say that, you know, me and my husband bring together a very unique blend of skills, you know, him being a software developer, which is a very key component, component, and myself having come from the learning and development space.

So we know we have the two of us along with Sarah, who is kind of our subject matter expert. We have a pretty good team. And then we've brought on four additional people to bolster up different areas where we need support. So we've got an amazing team behind us. But that didn't happen by accident. We started talking about it in October. And then, you know, by the time January rolled around, we realized, you know, I don't think this is just pretend anymore. I think we're really going to do this. So we had committed to it really in January, which is less than six months ago. And then by the time February rolled around, we had already applied to be part of Ignition, which is a program by Invest Ottawa within the Invest Ottawa ecosystem, a venture ecosystem. It's the first program that you can start with when you have a business concept. And so we started with Invest Ottawa, our program started in April. And ever since then, it's been an absolute whirlwind of, you know, creating our demo, getting our demo and applying to Collision Conference, which is on July 17th, you know, and then beginning on the MVP, the pilot, minimum viable product for our pilot, which is running August 14th is the launch date for that. And so we set some very aggressive timelines. And we did that very intentionally. A, you know, because if you're going to do it, you might as well do it and rip off the bandaid. And I would say that's true for anyone. So really this message that I'm sharing today is about like how to get something accomplished, you know, how to actually do it. If you have an idea, how do you get it across the line? How do you bring it to fruition?

Well, these deadlines aren't manufactured. I'm not making them up. So as the leader, as the CEO, and you know, I hate titles, so I don't call myself that, but as the person who's driving the performance of the company, the performance of the company, it's up to me to create deadlines and create some pressure so that we can, you know, pressure. And we've got to be careful because we want some stress because without stress, there's no result. But not so much stress that we burn people out. So we need to be very careful, like how much we're pushing on that gas. people out. So we need to be very careful, like how much we're pushing on that gas. But we do need enough pressure to actually get things done. And I think it would surprise you how quickly people can get things done when they're motivated to do something and when they have a passion for it and when they have the right skills, when the skills aren't holding them up. Now, if you have to learn a whole bunch of things, it takes a long time to learn, right? So that could be a roadblock for you. But if you can find the right people to come alongside you and help, and they have the right skills, and they also have the right passion and the right mindset for it, then you can create some real magic. And that's kind of what we're noticing now. some real magic. And that's kind of what we're noticing now when we brought on Jackie, a great project manager, when we brought in Alex, who's a phenomenal instructional designer, when we brought on Noemi, who has a passion for semiotics and user experience and customer experience and graphic design and marketing. She's like a Swiss army knife. Um, when we, when we brought on Debbie, who is another person with a disability, um, who's an amazing finance administrator, administrator, and we've worked together before, and she's going to be helping with making sure we stay on budget for the project. Um, and then when you, when you put all the things together and you, you know, you, you see what your skill sets are and what you're lacking and what you need, and hopefully you have some money.

So it's really hard to do anything unless you can find the money for it. So create a plan. Go talk to your family and friends and people who you know in your network. Convince them that your plan is viable and maybe they will actually loan you some money towards it. And that's how you get started. If you don't have your own capital put to put in, you need to convince people that this is true. And the process of convincing other people is also going to convince you and make you more aware of what, you know, the project has, the potential that it has, the real potential, and also its flaws and also its gaps. And so you're building this over time. There is definitely one thing that I know for sure, though, you cannot do it by yourself. You need a whole team around you. I've definitely talked about this kind of concept before as well. But even if you're, if you think you're alone, then you're probably not ready to be an entrepreneur. And you're probably not ready even to start a business necessarily. You can certainly be an independent consultant or a solopreneur and kind of manage to do things by yourself. But if you're trying to grow a business, absolutely no way in hell. You need a whole team around you, whether that team is part-time, contract, casual, full-time, mentors, advisors, full-time mentors, advisors, specialists, like you need to develop your whole ecosystem of support.

So if you're in Ontario, I would highly recommend, you know, reaching out to your local community futures development corporations or CFDCs, because they have quite a bit of support that might be able to help you. Any kind of economic development agencies, your local chambers of commerce. If you've got a business like Invest Ottawa, it's some kind of accelerator program or incubator program, definitely reach out to those, especially if you're in thinking about a high tech company. But you need to bring people, you need to bring your story to people and you need to bring people along with your story because it's going to evolve. It's going to change like, like pretty much constantly.

You know, our, our story has changed so much. Like I thought it's so much harder to do it for yourself too. Even, you know, I'm, I'm a business coach and I help other business owners kind of hone their value propositions and take their product to market sort of where I fit in. But even myself, it's so much harder to do it for yourself than it is to help somebody else do it. So when I was first starting Positivist Group, I did engage a business coach and I'm not, you know, ashamed to say that whatsoever. I think every coach needs a coach, uh, maybe multiple coaches even. So, uh, there's certainly no shame in getting help. Um, and it's okay to help for people to see what the process looks like. Uh, That's just part of having a growth mindset. 

So if you think that you have to have everything perfect before you can share with anything with someone, I would suggest that's a very toxic sort of mindset to have if you're in the place of wanting to start and grow a business. You're going to have to get very comfortable with people seeing behind the curtain and seeing the process if you want to be successful. I haven't heard of anyone who's been able to be successful without that kind of support. So I know that those of you are out there, I know because I talk to you all the time. And you know that this is exactly the thing that I preach. So this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's talked to me before. But our experience with Invest Ottawa was really good. It has been good and it's still good. We're not, well, apparently it's like Hotel California. Once you get in, you can never leave. California. Once you get in, you can never leave.

And I'm starting to see how that could be true. But we've had so far, I think it's been eight weeks that we've been within the program, within the Ignition program. It's been a very good experience. We've made a few friends. We've certainly sought the advice of many of the mentors that they have available there. And then the beautiful news is that it doesn't end. So once we've kind of aged out of the ignition program, we can begin to take advantage of their other programs, the flex program specifically. So I'm going to actually recite on June 20th. If you're available, you should join us. If you're from the Ottawa area, please join, um, register. I'll make sure there's a registration link in the, uh, in the event, in the event, in the script, the podcast script, I'll make sure there is a link to register for the Ignition pitch competition. So I will be going up there and I will be speaking stream of consciousness for three minutes and not a second more, apparently.

 And then there will be an opportunity for both the crowd to vote. So there's a crowd winner. And then they've got a panel of judges as well who votes for the best pitch. So come and, you know, hopefully you can help us win because Sarah, my my partner in crime here, Sarah wants to win both of both of them. So certainly I think we've got the crowd in the bag and it's pretty much up to me. So I'm going to share my pitch with you and you tell me what you think. And if you think that there's anything that I can do to do better, I would love to hear your feedback. So here we go. Disability is part of the human experience. By age 60, nearly half of us will have a disability that threatens to diminish our freedom in the real world. My name is Erin Patchell and the Train to Help team imagines a real world shopping experience where everyone feels welcome. We have a multifaceted solution.

 The first part is a membership platform that equips brick and mortar retailers with the up-to-date knowledge featuring the best AODA compliance e-learning on the market. The second part is a website for our members to attract customers with disabilities and their caregivers to their establishments and provide transparency of information. Let me tell you a story about Tim. With multiple degrees, world travel, and even a stint as a model in Japan, Tim's life was vibrant. Diagnosed with MS at 32 years old, he was in a wheelchair within four years. Now as a quadriplegic, his world would be very small without Sarah, his partner, and my business partner, who fights daily to keep his world bigger.

But this isn't just for Tim. Currently 27% of Canadians age 15 years and older have a disability, and they spend about $55 billion annually across 141,000 retail establishments in Canada. In the past eight weeks, we've surveyed retailers and customers with disabilities, uncovering a significant gap in understanding. 100% of small retailers had not implemented AODA training. 100% of employees who were trained admitted to not actually learning anything. 90% of customers with disabilities believed businesses did not understand their needs. 61% did not feel valued as customers. And these retailers actually really care about their customers, but they struggle with how much there is to learn. Sole proprietors especially fall through the cracks of accessibility laws, even though if they're discovered, the fines for noncompliance are extremely expensive. The good news is we're trained to help. Our seven-member team, including three co-founders, brings expertise from engineering to sales leadership. We have the belief, the skills, and the experience to transform the train to help project from a project into a movement. We're preparing for our pilot party in August and we have 15 confirmed businesses and over a hundred employees participating.

They will proudly leave with trained to help certificates, t-shirts, storefront signage, and a dedicated member page in our searchable website, allowing people with disabilities and their caregivers to explore a bigger world with more confidence. We have five more spots for pilot businesses. So if you know an independent retailer who'd be great champion for this project, we'd love to connect, or they can join our waiting list for our November, 2024 launch. Together, we're empowering customer service teams, enhancing retail brands, and making every customer's experience memorable in the right way. Join us in creating a world where inclusion is a retail cornerstone, not an afterthought. So what did you think? Honestly, I'm pretty happy with it. But again, if you are confused, it's a kind of a big concept to try to jam into three minutes. It is a somewhat complex solution. So I'm curious to see if it actually spoke to you the way that I hope that it speaks to the judges.

 So I guess we'll say that we're just at the beginning here. You know, we're, we're putting our pilot out in August, August 14th. We have quite a few local businesses who are signed up for the pilot and that's very exciting. They're bringing their employees and everyone by the end of the night is going to be all trained up. They're going to be hopefully compliant with AODA and, and more, hopefully using those skills every day to bring a little bit of joy into somebody's life. But it's just the beginning. We have a long road ahead of us, like years, you know? So I'm going to talk a little bit about just like maintaining my own energy through the next little while, because obviously I'm putting out a podcast. We're developing a software company. Positivist group is also running, you know, smoothly and, and humming along. Um, and then I also do quite a bit of volunteer work. For example, I'm on the board of directors with the ICF, the international coach federation, Ottawa chapter. Um, and so, you know, I do grant writing as well for nonprofits for free. for free. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely going to be a challenge to manage my own energy. And I think that's true for all entrepreneurs, right?

 So really, I've got to say, what I've really just been focusing on is the basics, sleep, exercise, walking every single day for at least an hour, hour and a half. A lot of the time I'll do that while I'm talking on the phone with a potential podcast guest or potential customer or just a friend of mine. And so I can kind of manage to do some walk and talk phone calls and get some exercise at the same time being productive and, and also taking care of myself. So finding ways to do that. Also, I'll just take a day off if I have to, like on Tuesday, my mother and I are going to go to a spa together for the day. And I'm not stressed out at all about that. That's a lie. So, but sometimes you just need a day at the spa and that's okay too. Um, and then just making sure I'm hydrating. Uh, so sleeping well, eating well, getting some exercise and hydrating. And I know that if I'm doing all of those four things, usually my energy can maintain, um, for the 12 to 15, sometimes hours a day that I need to be working.

And in order to, to bring this project to a successful start, it's not even started yet, we're really at the beginning. And so, you know, finding ways to make yourself finding efficiencies in your schedule, and finding ways to keep yourself healthy are going to be really, really important. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast. I know it's a little bit different. It's our 10th episode. So every 10 episodes, I'm going to be doing a solo podcast. And I think because my life is revolving around this project, I'd love to take you with me on the journey. And so I'm going to be sharing, you know, a little bit about what's going on on the back end and how we're doing and how we're feeling. So if you have any questions about that, questions about, you know, what does it feel like to be a software CEO? I don't know yet. what does it feel like to be a software CEO?

 I don't know yet. I don't know how to answer that question because it still feels like a little bit of sort of this doesn't really feel real yet, even though it's very real. It's certainly real financially. So therefore it's real. But it still feels a little odd. So anyways, if you have any questions about that, you've got this twinkle in your eye, an idea that you want to maybe think about, um, let me know, and then we can chat about it. So one quote that spoke to me this week is from Reid Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn. And I'm really feeling this one. An entrepreneur is someone who jumps off a cliff and builds a plane on the way down. Hooey. Yeah, he is absolutely bang on. Until next time, have a beautiful day at work.

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble

Ever wondered what the key to securing the future of family farms for generations to come could be? If so, join our conversation with Lauren Sheil, a financial planner and trusted advisor. With his background growing up on a small farm and his focus on eliminating debt, building wealth, and leaving a legacy, this is a discusison you do not want to miss out. Stray tuned to be one step closer to building wealth, and financially planning well for the future.

Website: https://lcsfinancial.ca/

Stay in Touch: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laurensheil

Script:

The shares are worthless if I'm not there.

The world has become a lot more complex.

Every year, you leave $100,000 inside a company, the government's going to come along and say, oh, look, there's $100,000 there. I want 15% of it just for nothing. And so we take that money and we just move it over here where the government can't get at it.

Nobody wants to die, Lauren. We're all going gonna live forever.

There's there's that and that's just delusional, everybody dies.

Well but we're all delusional.

The story of the day and this is a true story based on a previous client and you know obviously paraphrasing a few, a few little things, but Lauren, I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts about this, this story, this business case. All right. As the owner of a generational family farm, I've always been proud of our old school values and family first culture. My grandparents started the farm and it's been passed down to my father and now to me and I hope to my son in the future. We faced many challenges over the years but our commitment to keeping the farm and the family has never wavered. However, as I look to the future, I'm concerned we're not preparing like we need to be. I'd like to retire in the next five years and the world has gotten so much more complicated. When we bought the farm from my dad almost 30 years ago, it was a much simpler time. I know I don't know what I don't know and I've been resistant to change and putting together the necessary checks and balances, such as insurance, legal documents and policies. We've always operated on trust and mutual understanding but I also know the world's changing and we need to adapt and the last thing i want is for us to have to sell the farm so enter lauren shale thank you for coming on the podcast lauren uh lauren's a financial planner and trusted advisor

I'm just listening to you talk i'm like am I supposed to say now?

You say something whenever you want to say something.

So enter Lauren Sheil, a financial planner and trusted advisor. Lauren has a relational approach that we think would really support clients with this particular challenge. With his background, with your background, Lauren, growing up on a small farm and your focus on eliminating debt, building wealth and leaving legacy. I think you're you might be the perfect person to help us navigate with these challenges. So before we get started, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. Fabulous.

Tell me what makes you a great person to help with this kind of challenge?

There's a lot going on. And, um, uh, as you mentioned, I, uh, I grew up on a small, it was more of a hobby farm. It wasn't really an actual operating business farm. I, my father was actually a corporate executive and, uh, and he, uh, he moved to this, we bought this farm he grew up on a generational family farm in the 1940s and 50s and uh and by the late 70s he was starting to feel the itch a little and uh so he bought a small uh small farm outside of town and basically played gentleman farmer on the weekends while he was being the corporate executive in the city during the week. I adore that. I totally adore that.

Yeah, it was fun. It was an interesting dichotomy of his of the way we we ended up living because uh because you know um well I won't get into all the detail about that but we we kind of grew up the uh the the location itself was just kind of outside the outskirts of town um not too far from a fairly large city um and uh and so the uh the relationship and the dynamics of the town itself and the people that we interacted with was was very diverse there was a number of um family farm in the area it was a big dairy farming area um as well as um the townies as you want to call them um and so so uh so that was kind of the environment that i grew up in and um and uh i got into uh this business after having spent 20 years almost um as a marketing executive in the canadian music industry okay working with creative individuals musicians um and so on and I learned a lot um about small business essentially and and might and even what i refer to as micro business which is um one and two people operations that are that are uh almost cottage industry-ish um in a way but uh but that can grow to be extremely large operations uh from a financial standpoint um but still operate with kind of on a shoestring of just a few people and and farmers tend to do that um that it's one family basically running this operation but it could be a multi-billion dollar operation and you don't and you don't necessarily see that or notice that until you do a little bit of digging so right so that's kind of how I come at this um that uh that that it's well it's a very simple structure um mom dad couple of kids all work on the farm maybe maybe one or two neighbors who are employed employed part-time or full-time or whatever um but uh but they're running a multi-million dollar operation a shoestring of uh of personnel uh and that's and that's what you see in a lot of the uh a lot of the farms especially the especially the dairy operations they can be hugely hugely profitable uh enterprises with five people interesting okay so you know it's so hard right? Because I feel like sometimes the farmers are this like last bastion of the handshake agreement.

Yes. You know, in a lot of ways, or the small town entrepreneurs, you know, and I'm from a small town. So I work with a lot of them. I work with a few people in similar scenarios as this as well in a different, totally different capacity than you do. similar scenarios as this as well in a different totally different capacity than you do um and it's like it i feel like that's almost like what we're missing in the rest of the world but at the same time we need to like help them um have some of the tools to make sure that because they're not wrong the world has become a lot more uh complex i was just going to say you you mentioned that in the story yeah in the discussion or the story there that you launched this with that the world has changed the world has changed significantly and um in preparation for this uh I did a little bit of research yesterday just uh kind of boned up on some statistics and uh one of the statistics that jumped out at me was that less than 8% of family farms have a written succession plan.

 And that's, I mean, it doesn't have to be complicated. be as simple as son a purchases asset b from father i guess he would be a but yeah i know you're there and it doesn't it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be um a 60 page legal document it just needs to be something that's written down that everybody involved understands yeah um and uh and so that uh when the time comes there's no confusion and there's no there's there's no indigestion at uh at family thanksgiving dinner totally yeah where does insurance come into play here this is really your bread and butter, right? Is the insurance industry?

Yeah. Let's back it up a little bit first. Sure. Let's back it up. When we start talking about succession planning in a family business, there's two, well, a number of factors that need to be brought to the table and and then first one is that a family farm is treated differently by CRA than any other business so the one one of the things one of the first things that you need to understand when you start talking about succession planning in a business like this is how the CRA is going to treat the sale. And without getting super technical, everybody understands or everybody has heard the term capital gains.

So, under Canadian law, under CRA rules, the capital gains tax is charged, the definition of capital gains is essentially the value that an asset has increased, the amount that an asset has increased in value from the time you bought it so the so there's there's two numbers that come into play there's there's the purchase price which is referred to technically as the adjusted cost base um and the sale price which um is is the and then the difference now oftentimes what people will say is well what if i bought the business from grandpa for a dollar the cra doesn't accept that as the sale price the cra says the sale price is actually fair market value right so if so if the if the product if the assets are gifted to you the cra doesn't care no the the the assets were actually this and whether you paid that money or not that's what we're going to calculate taxes on so so that's the first thing that people need to understand is that uh when transferring assets between family members between or or a close friend or whoever if you don't sell it to them for fair market value you're still going to pay the taxes yeah at fair market value um the other thing to the other thing to recognize is and the conversation comes up all the time is that um under the, there is what's called the capital gains tax inclusion rate.

 And for a Canadian controlled corporation, the first million dollars in change of share value is exempt from capital gains. is exempt from capital gains so um this comes into play a lot with with small businesses where where i will be having be having this conversation and uh the business is worth you know it's a small business maybe it's worth half a million or one or two million dollars and they're like well we don't need to do any tax planning because we're not going to pay any tax on it anyway because of tax exclusion. Which technically is true, but only under certain specific circumstances.

The way the law is written, it says that the first million dollars in change, it's actually $1,016,000, whatever. And it changes every year, it goes up every year. The way the law is written, it basically says that this first million dollars of share value is exempt. So that means, number one, it has to be a corporation but you don't have shares in sole proprietorships right so if it's not and so if you're not incorporated there's no tax there's no capital gains inclusion rate there's no there or rather there's no capital gains exclusion everything is considered a capital gain um so if you're a mom and pop shop that didn't incorporate, if you're a partnership that didn't incorporate, this whole idea of the first million dollars is exempt from capital gains is false because it has to be incorporated. The other thing that people overlook or don't realize is that a lot of these small companies and again i work with very small companies a lot of these small companies their greatest asset is actually the people who work there for sure so if i'm selling my business and i'm essentially the business yeah then the shares are worthless right i'm not there so then what ends up happening is you're not selling your company for shares you're selling the assets of the company and then winding down the corporation right yeah and the asset sale if i'm selling a truck or inventory or a contract, service contract, whatever, that can't be brought into the capital gains inclusion rate either. It's not share. Of course. Yeah. So these are the little stipulations inside the CRA rules that people who are especially small business operators really need to understand. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not an accountant, so I can't give you actually accounting advice. This is just a situation that I've seen over the years.

Now, translate that back to farm businesses. Now, translate that back to farm businesses. The CRA has basically said that farm businesses, because of their nature, it being a family operation a lot of the time, don't have to be incorporated. But because most of the asset in a farm property is actually in the land. This is now the land transfer that's happened that can be done between family members without having a corporation a lot easier if you are in a corporation but you don't have to and then the other thing that the discussion that ends up happening is, okay, then we go back to that same scenario of, okay, I don't really need to do a lot of tax planning because I'm only going to sell a business to my son for a million or a million and a half dollars. Then you have the discussion of, if that's what you're doing junior might not have the credit oh yeah go to the bank and and uh fund the taxes that are coming to you because because it's as i said earlier a lot of these farm operations you look at them you drive by them on the highway and you're like yeah that's a million dollar operation that's a million dollar operation no no that's a 10 million dollar operation and you don't even realize it yeah it doesn't take long you got 100 acres of land you got um you're you're putting out um i grew up in uh as i said earlier i grew up in dairy corn country so you got 100 acres of land you're cranking out you know a couple of hundred thousand bushels of corn a year um you got 200 head of cattle uh and those and those dairy cows are producing a are attached to a production contract with the marketing board. And, you know, you've got a $10 million operation. For sure.

 Yeah. And, and Junior isn't going to have the credit. No. To buy that. And that's what, that's where we kind of intersect, right? Because my job is to help senior let go and figure out how to get junior to start leading and, and to know what they need so that in five years, you can't do this in a year or even two years. A lot of the time, sometimes it takes junior five years to get ready to have the cap to not just the capital but the the credit to be able to take this on right and to have the skills to take this on so oftentimes what ends up happening in my experience at any rate and maybe you can you can speak to this too but um oftentimes what ends up happening is is uh we'll take the example of of my friend david who i who I went to high school with this guy, a dairy operation, southern Ontario, where I grew up, who went to university and did the agribusiness courses and everything else. And dad creates a partnership with Junior. And dad slowly steps away. And Junior slowly buys the shares.

It takes like 25 years to do that. It can take a while. Because there was no way he was going to be able to come up with a loan for the million or three dollars that the CRA was going to demand to make that transfer. So now they do it over time. Yeah. So that's kind of one of the first things that I would say in a situation like we discussed earlier is, yes, okay, you want five years, but really how much time do you need? want five years but really how much time do you need because if if senior is 60 and he wants to retire at 65 that's one thing but if he's gonna kick around and dabble yeah buy and you know drive a tractor once someone else there for the sake of driving a tractor, then maybe we've got 25 years. Sure. Yeah. Every single scenario is different. Yeah. Another situation I knew of where they did something similar to this and senior, again, a second generation senior. So this was like a three generation family farm, senior again a second generation senior so this was like a three generation family farm but uh but senior was 85 years old and still going out and cutting hay and doing whatever else just because he wanted to be there so this brings me to the the i mean maybe we're everything all roads lead to insurance but i mean you hope you always hope you're going to have another 25 years when you're six years old but what if you don't right so then yeah you're you're right all roads tend to lead to insurance in one way or another um there's there's a couple of things when we get into succession planning too that uh that we have to understand about the family dynamic and um and we get into what i call a state equalization because if there's two or three juniors and only one of them wants to take over the business we've got to figure out a way to treat the other two fairly right and so that's when we get into family trust structures and funding certain things with life insurance and also where we talk about how do we make thanksgiving dinner go smoothly yeah without having some of the uh the children feel like they've been shafted.

 Sure. Because, again, we've got a $10 million operation here. And one son took over the business. Yes. And the other, and so now he's managing and controlling this massive asset. These other two kids are left to kind of go out and make life on their own without the benefit of this functioning business. So I recommend in situations like that what I call an insured asset transfer process, which is where we take a life insurance policy that is funded by the proceeds of the business. And that life insurance policy now is designed to do three things. It's designed to offset some of the taxes that would come to you if a senior died suddenly and complete that transfer quickly. We would have the life insurance policy there to do that, but it's also there to provide the other beneficiaries with enough money that they feel like they've been treated fairly. In a case like that, we've got to, again, I keep coming back to the value of the operation, but we've got a $10 million operation.

 We've got one son that's running the operation. I know we've got a again i keep coming back to the the to the value of the operation but we've got a 10 million dollar operation we've got one son that's running the operation i know we've got two other kids that are sitting there going i need or i should receive three four million dollars from my drone and so we we can set that up as an estate utilization approach through a family trust or through just through a well-funded and well-designed life insurance policy right yeah and this is why partnering with people like you lauren is so important yeah i think um yeah you've got a lot of uh insight under your belt there and you've been through a lot of these scenarios.

So, you know, there's an emotional, a palpable, emotional resistance to this kind of structure. In a lot of cases, the folks that I've worked with, it's been, you know, it's a process of kind of getting to that, that, to that point where they're comfortable having a conversation with you or, you know, or someone like you, right. And that's part of my job is to get them there. someone like you, right? And that's part of my job is to get them there. But what would you say to someone who's in that scenario, who's a little bit resistant? Well, we want to figure out what they're resistant to. And there are some misconceptions in the world about what life insurance is for and um and there are some there are some issues people don't quite understand about the um the tax treatment of things and so the number one thing that people need to understand when they start talking we start talking about life insurance the number one thing I think people need to understand is that it is essentially a tax-free asset.

The proceeds of life insurance pay out tax-free. And again, depending on how you structure it, that is a very valuable piece of information for a lot of people. So not just in farm corporations, but again, if we go back to the other corporate structures that I mentioned earlier, if you're sitting on a company that has a couple of hundred thousand dollars or so retained earnings, just sitting inside the company, everybody knows that to get that out you got to pay dividend tax of course but if the um but if instead you use the money inside the company to pay life insurance premium you're moving the you're you're transferring the asset from a taxable environment to a non-tax environment or a tax deferred. So now as it sits, that money sits in, when money sits inside a corporation, it attracts tax, just the regular corporate tax rate stuff, just as it sits there. If you then, if you use that money to purchase a life insurance policy, that tax stops, that passive tax as it grows has stopped because the money has technically been spent. You can't write it off as an expense, but it's no longer just a passive growth that's happened.

 So that's just taxes when stopped. And then when the individual dies, the owner of the company dies, the company receives the proceeds of the tax, the life insurance policy tax-free, and it can be paid out to the heirs of the corporate owner through what's called a capital dividend account, the notion of account that's created on debt by CRA, which is, again, a tax-free account. So now all of this money has been, has come out of the corporation tax free without having to be paid on it without having any dividends charged on it or anything like that. So that's so that's a structure that we use all the time for all corporations whether it's a farm corporation or not but it works and then it works with that farm corporation obviously just as well as any other. Well that's a good angle because I think I think every single one of my Well, that's a good angle because I think every single one of my small, but certainly the farm clients, the generational family businesses got something in common. None of them like tax.

 I explain this to people all the time is when we put a life insurance policy inside a corporation, what we've essentially done is we've moved money that's from one pile that the government is taxing every year. And you leave $100,000 inside a company, the government's going to come along and say, oh, look, there's $100,000 dollars there i want 15 of it for sure um just for nothing and so we take that money and we just move it over here where the government can't get at it and it sits there and it grows it does its thing because life insurance policies grow with dividends and everything else and it grows tax deferred government can't get at that money while it's in life insurance falls right then when the then when buddy dies the uh the cash drops into the company and gets dividended out to the heirs of the company through this cda that that is tax-free so it's so we've uh moved money from a taxable environment to a non-taxable whereas if we just left the money in there and as it grew when the government grabbed their growth tax every year so they're taking the money off of this and then when you try and dividend it out they're going to take tax on it again tax so the only time the only time in canadian tax law and just about any western world tax law where the same dollar is taxed twice yeah well that's definitely an angle that'll attract some of these folks i think um and knowledge is power right i think you'd probably agree knowledge is power uh the other thing the other thing is like life insurance companies, life insurance gets a bad rap. Because there's always...

Nobody wants to die, Lauren. We're all going to live forever. There's that, and that's just delusional. Everybody dies. Well, but we're all delusional in the same way. That's just delusional. Everybody dies. Get them. No, the point is, though, that we've all heard the horror stories of somebody who paid into this life insurance policy for years and years and years and then never got paid but but uh but they're almost what i refer to as the uh as as the urban legend because because everybody talks about this stuff and they they think about it and they're like oh i heard about buddy and i'm like okay who was it where where did he live what was his name right how long ago was that they don't have the specifics because it actually never happens probably not no no it's I haven't heard of that before for the record so what's that i haven't heard of that for the record i'm just gonna live forever that's my right there you go there you go now the other the um I don't want to I don't want to gloss over this and I yeah bring it up I meant to bring it up sooner is that there's also a thing in uh a relatively new thing in life insurance okay um that's uh that's critical illness insurance okay basically living it's basically uh it's basically um as one of my friends put it um it's it's insurance for the unsuccessful heart attack so there's been a lot of those yeah what's an unsuccessful heart attack we're getting really good at you know bringing people back to life after these we're getting we're getting really good unsuccessful heart attacks and unsuccessful cancer yeah and unsuccessful you know so these are things that you get it don't die but your life is altered for sure so so we have so we now have what we call critical illness insurance which pays out um upon diagnosis of one of these major illnesses so long as you survive 30 days and um because if you don't if you die after if you die before 30 days it's just like a trick sure um but uh but if you have a heart attack and survive but you can't work the farm the same way you used to nice to get a little bit of money to to kind of offset your lifestyle um and and other things disability insurance is harder to get because um because it's based more on your income and if you're under reporting your income like a lot of small business owners and farmers do if you're now nobody nobody under reports their income come on no but if you're under reporting your income um yeah they are critical illness insurance policy doesn't care no um you purchase a you purchase an insurance policy that pays you a hundred thousand dollars on diagnosis of a heart attack or heart disease then that's what you get whereas if you say I make a hundred thousand dollars a year and i need a disability insurance policy that's going to continue my income at that level now you gotta prove that you make that kind of money before the insurance policies before the insurance company's going to approve you for that policy for sure so yeah we could go into underreporting income too and why that's usually a bad idea for the record like but on actually though if you're trying to grow your business it's it's you know there's there's a bit of a it Even corporations, small business corporations, if you want to simply pay yourself dividends from the growth of the company, which a lot of entrepreneurs do, they just pay themselves dividends, then you don't even really have to under report your income because because it's all your income's all in the company and you're just taking out what you need to live on and i've seen that that scenario play out a number of times a number of times as well yeah where where we've got a like a meeting just last week with a with a gentleman who uh who has a company makes probably $2 million a year. He pays himself 60 grand a year.

Yeah. Just because that's all he needs and everything else lives inside the company. And he was in another one of these situations where now he's got all these retained earnings that are attracting all of this tax. So I was like, well, I understand why you don't want to pay yourself a lot of money. So I was like, well, I understand why you don't want to pay yourself a lot of money. Protect this pile of retained earnings here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're a treasure trove of knowledge, Lauren. Yeah. Is there anything, any final words? You know, one of the things I like to ask, you know, at the end of the podcast is if you were in this person's shoes, or if this person was your client, what's the one question, the most important question that they ask themselves? Well, as I said, at the start of the story that you laid out is fairly common, but it was also a little bit vague in terms of some specifics.

So I would want to know what type of farm we're talking about here specifically, because there are different approaches and different considerations if we're dealing with a dairy farm that has a big milk quota versus just a straight up cash crop situation. I'd want to know how many kids there are for that state equalization conversation. And I'd want to know how the transfer, the first generational transfer happened because uh because when we're talking about adjusted cost base on the taxes we want to know how far back we have to go um but I think the number one thing that people need to understand when they're doing succession planning depending regardless of whether it's a farm or other type of business you've got to get your head around capital gains tax um and how that's going to affect things and i'm not an accountant so you need a good accountant yeah help you understand that and then once you get your head around how the capital gains tax are going to be treated then you need to engage uh someone like myself yeah who can uh work on ways to um offset or defer that tax for as long as possible and and um and the way we do that nine times out of 10 is with a permanent life insurance policy that grabs that asset, shelters it from tax and moves it forward. The the other piece of information that I didn't get a chance to discuss earlier is that when we're dealing with a permanent life insurance policy a lot of people will sit back and say well i don't get the money until I die and that is not true or not necessarily true okay um the uh permanent life insurance policy is has has this cash value component. The cash value is your asset. 

You can withdraw portions of it. You can't withdraw it all because it collapses the whole policy, but you can withdraw portions of it as it grows and generate an income that way. You can also use it as collateral for a loan and borrow against it to get more money. Right. And now you've created another expense for yourself in interest. So any interest that's going to be charged when you borrow money against that policy becomes write-offable. Right.

So you can use that to fund your retirement if you if you get a large enough life insurance policy with a big enough cash balance you can borrow enough money against it to fund your retirement and then when you eventually pass away um because everybody dies need to break it to you but everybody dies um that was my that was my uh donald trump impression everybody dies you need to do your ted talk on everybody dies but uh the the uh the point being that that uh when you eventually die the life insurance policy pays off the loan and then right and then then away you go right so there's no there's no residual there um and there are companies out there there are banks out there that uh that structure these deals they understand how permanent life insurance works and they structure these deals in such a way that you don't have to repay them while you're living okay yep makes sense not really but you know why you have lauren guys don't worry all good you're in good hand this is why lauren knows stuff so we don't have to yeah well i mean the point is the point being if you borrow if you borrow against your life insurance policy. Don't worry about it. I won't say it about the bank, but if you borrow it right from the life insurance company themselves, they won't insist on a repayment plan because they know they're going to get their money when they die. Yeah, that's fair.

That makes sense. Yeah, that does. All right. Well, thank you very much you very much sir has been a pleasure and an honour Iappreciate that. 

I appreciate the opportunity absolutely thanks for thanks for uh listening and uh i hope i didn't uh confuse everybody anybody too much but uh i'm sure in the show notes you'll have my contact information. So we are putting your contact information in the show notes and your website. So don't worry, folks, if it made no sense, Lauren knows what he's talking about. And, you know, we can guide you through it. You're a good, you're a good guide. A good guy and a good guide. There you go.

That's it.

All right.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Intro:

Max Brault has a vision: To build community by showing the world that Canadians with disabilities contribute to society―and to successful business ventures. Join us for a riveting conversation on accessibility and inclusivity in the world of business!

Stay in Touch with Max:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/max-brault

Script:

 The cost of changing something is all about understanding how you're going to spend the money.

 Leading people into thinking a place is accessible when it's not, I think is the most, probably the most important thing that I'm hearing from people with disabilities.

One third of the Canadian population has some form of disability.

No one wants to go somewhere where they're uncomfortable or they're feeling disrespected.

You know, and of course the reaction is, well, we'll write off your pizza. And I'm like, no, I'm not looking for a handout. What I want you to do is stop putting the garbage can there.

For anyone listening this is a true story uh that was provided to me by one of my colleagues sarah and her partner who is paraplegic and so um this is her story. I visited a cafe with my partner who's in a motorized wheelchair. Their marketing said they were wheelchair friendly, but we didn't find that to be the case. The doorway was uncomfortably narrow. Objects like chairs and a garbage can made it hard to maneuver.

 The bathroom was uncomfortably small for his wheelchair, and there were no low tables or a reachable check-out counter. When I told the manager they gave me a free coffee card, which was a nice gesture, but free coffee doesn't solve the problem, I decided to talk to the general manager who said they'd bring forward my ideas for change, but we never heard back from them. I honestly think they just don't know how to help. And this experience showed me that most places still have a long way to go to be truly accessible. And this is Erin, like, you know, breaking the third wall here. But this is a story that has, I think this has happened on a recurring basis for her and also for a few other people that we know as well. And I'm sure Max, you as well. And every time she has an experience like this, she says it makes it harder to take the risk the next time. It's not just about getting in the door. It's about being able to feel comfortable somewhere. So enter Max. Welcome to the show, Max. Max Brault.

 Hi, Erin. How are you holding up?

Hello. I'm doing good, sir. Max Brault has a vision to build a community, build community by showing the world that Canadians with disabilities contribute to society and successful business ventures. Unafraid to challenge conventions to make positive change for the disability community, Max aims to identify accessibility issues for corporations, governments, international community, non-governmental agencies, and more to provide strategic solutions to address them. So that is a big goal, sir. It is. And it's by people like yourselves helping me achieve that goal to let everybody know that I exist and what I do in this great world of ours. Yes. And we, we appreciate you for it. Um, did you want to tell some people will be listening to this and others will be obviously watching on YouTube, um, or shorts or whatever. Uh, but did you want to tell the folks, uh, watching slash listening, why you care about this subject?

Well, you you're seeing is is that i'm an elderly gentleman with uh gray beard gray hair wearing a nice shirt rocketed out with a bow tie um what you're not seeing is this visual as i'm sitting in an electric wheelchair uh i'm an individual who's had a spinal muscular atrophy since i've been born. And so over the years, I've been, I've experienced all kinds of lives. I've had a physical life where I was able to walk and run and play rugby, to the point now where I am confined to an electric wheelchair. So I've kind of lived the two lines, but always having this parasitic SMA behind my back. And as well as I've been in and out of the business world, I've worked for the federal government for close to 20 years, and I've run my own businesses. And, you know, this is a common story. It's a story I hear all the time. And I've experienced some of these issues myself.

And to be honest with you, I've come to put a hard wall when they happen. And I kind of note the place where it's happened and I make sure I never go back there. It's my wife who wants to take the flag and start fighting and making the changes. But I realized that sadly, like your friend, for every one of those that don't really take accessibility seriously, there is one that does. And at the end of the day, our money is harder, right? And we want to spend money to the organizations and places that want us to come in and have a good time and be seen there. And so I'd rather spend my money there. And so that's why when a place comes up like that, I have a tendency to ignore them and then move on to the ones that do want my patronage. and then move on to the ones that do want my patronage. And look, I could spend hours talking to you about what to do and not to do in this situation. But I think that, you know, internet is becoming a more and more viable tool.

 There are, you know, Google Sites. There's what myNZiv is doing with AccessNow. there's a whole bunch of different information that's starting to become more at our fingertips about what places are becoming accessible and what places are not. And I, and I think that again, taking a little bit of time and going to these sites and taking a look, which ones work for you might be a really good, you know, good starting point to avoid having that because I know a lot like your friend yeah um when I go out with my wife when I go out with my friends I don't want the evening to start off with with with a moment of man this place is not accessible and they treat me like crap I want to go out and have a good time I want to have a smile on my face I want to be be laughing and joking with the people I'm with. Yeah, absolutely. It's never going to be frictionless, but it's as frictionless as possible when you're going out. And what's the latest statistic from StatsCan? I think it was 27% of the Canadian population has at least one disability. And I'm sure that's underrepresented. Not everyone, of course, is in at least one disability. And I'm sure that's, you know, underrepresented.

 Not everyone, of course, is in a motorized wheelchair, but at least one disability, which is it's that's more than 25% of the population and climbing, you know, given we have an aging population, right? Well, oddly enough, the one group that has the highest percentage of disabilities is individuals that experience some kind of pain, which floors me every time I see that statistic. Right. But because it's defined as pain, we have to make some assumptions that's, you know, everywhere in the body kind of pain. Right.

So you can have a back pain, you can have a shoulder pain, you can have, but it's still kind of an obstacle to your physical environment, right? So going out is already a challenge, because you're experiencing pain, you don't want to go somewhere where, again, you know, you want to go somewhere where, yeah, you might be having pain, but you want to mitigate it by having a good time with your friends and your family. The ROI has to be there. Yeah, for sure. And I am someone that has a pain disability and a few other disabilities as well. But in terms of pain management, like I have to know if I'm leaving my house, it better be for a good reason. I better have a good experience and feel comfortable there, you know?

So, and I don't, I think that probably most people know um so and i don't i think that probably most people feel that way they don't no one wants to go somewhere where they're uncomfortable or they're feeling disrespected you know yeah so yeah it's it's a big it's a big thing and and you know again it it goes back to you, where you spend your hard-earned dollars, where do you spend, you know, the whole, you've heard of the spoon theory, right?

And I don't know if your audience has heard of the spoon theory. But again, if you only got so much effort or not effort, energy to go out, you really want to make sure it's something that you're not going to experience another issue on top of it right and so the spoon theory is a really great explanation of that and and uh and i get that um but what what what places need to do is is that the statistic you said you know 27 it's a massive population i mean from my point of view i don't like saying 27 because i'm kind of always used to rounding it up so i just started saying you know one third of the canadian population has some form of disability and in today's world where making money um is becoming a challenge or you got so many competitors competing for that same dollar isn't it in your best interest to make your place fully accessible where you can't now there are occasions that you can't and i get that i understand that but then don't be like the situation where you advertise you are and you show up and it doesn't work out 100 transparency and like accurate information not gaslighting people into um maybe gaslighting is the wrong word but misleading people into thinking a place is accessible when it's not I think is the most probably the most important thing that i'm hearing from people with disabilities um but when you know you are going to invest in something, at least do the research to know when you're looking at making an investment, make sure that you're including that divert the disability accessibility lens.

 If you're going to spend the money anyways, there's something that I heard the other day was something like, there's something that I heard the other day it was something like you know in order to include accessibility as a feature I guess within a renovation it's something like costs five to ten percent more than it would for the regular renovation I don't know if you've heard a statistic like that Max you know I I've been hearing, one thing I need to take a step back and I need to tell you, right? Yeah. I come from a real estate family.

My father basically ran a real estate management company. He basically owned and bought hundreds of condos in, in and around Montreal and Ottawa. Um, and so I grew up with, with this reno idea because whenever my father would buy a new place or whenever somebody would leave, he would have a team that would come in, fix it up, clean it up, make it ready. Right. Um, the reality is, and I'm going to call this a bad word, but you can say it's bullshit. And what I mean is, is that the cost of changing something is all about understanding how you're going to spend the money.

And what I mean is, I'm going to give you a great example of what happened to my friend of mine. My friend of mine owned a bar and he was really excited one day I was going to come in and and check out his bar because he's like I just fixed it up it's fully accessible come in and check it out and so I showed up and log behind I had to go to the bathroom so I went to the bathroom and I came wheeling out and I'm like hey you know uh James not working out for me so I'm gonna go in the back in the back alleyway and what ended up happening is is he bought a door that can go into the stall what he didn't check is that it hit the toilet right so i couldn't even wheel in like a walking person could walk in close it but i still couldn't wheel in because the door hitting the toilet didn't give me enough space to get around to close the door. Is that a wrong thing? Yes, because he thought the guy who installed it installed it for the door to open outwards, not inwards. Is that really an accessibility cost or is that just not double checking? Yeah. So. Quality control issue, I guess. Yeah. I honestly believe renovation costs, right. For a lot of things, if you do it right, it's going to be the same thing.

 I'll give you another personal experience. I had to redo my, my, I bought an old house so I can make everything accessible. Every time in a room, the number one question I had my, with my wife is what we won't touch this room for 20 years. So what are we going to install? What do we need to do? Well, the first question is insulation, you know, making sure everything's up to break up the code, the windows, everything was up to code. And then what are we going to put in there? You know, are we going to put in new plumbing? Are we going to put in new electrical work? Are we going to put in whatever, lighting? But it was all about accessibility as well. And I did not feel out of my pocketbook that my accessibility was more or less than what the normal bill would have been. If that makes any sense.

 I don't think it is. I mean, my mother is a kitchen designer, kitchen and bath designer, and she's done numerous accessible kitchens and baths and they cost no more. It's literally about the design. The design doesn't cost more. the design the design doesn't cost more you know um there may be a few bells and whistles you want to add or something like that but um it's not significant right it's not and and you know like if you want to put an elevator in a house yeah okay that's a cost but then the question you need to ask yourself is that really a necessity? Yeah. Right? And it might be.

You know, it might be a necessity. But in 90% of the cases where I heard an elevator being installed, it was a nice to have. It was not a necessity. Yeah. Right? So I call BS on it. Right? Yeah. right yeah and and where it starts to become expensive is if you're if you're um a restaurant or or a barbershop or something in a very old location that might need you know a ramp for stairs or might need um the bathroom wine because it's in an old structure. But at the end of the day, you're not widening that bathroom for me, you're widening that bathroom for your overall clients, because your clients are gonna appreciate a loiter bathroom, if you get where I'm coming from. Yeah, revisit the story. Yeah.

So because a lot of the things I felt like you know of course we've talked about um you know some things that are easy to kind of fix some things that are like obviously more of an investment but what I'm hearing in the story is like the doorway is uncomfortably narrow okay fine that's a renovation you know objects like chairs and garbage cans well to me that's like that's education and just awareness you know um my my biggest beef about garbage cans is they always put the damn garbage can by the push button right they do if i gotta i gotta press the button i gotta reach over a garbage can now i i don't know about some of you folks right most garbage cans are not a problem but some of them are disgusting they're overfilled there are not something i want to reach over and press another button but i gotta move the garbage can because I can't reach over that. Right. Yeah. And, and it's never easy to move a garbage can because they're heavy. Like some of the industrial ones are heavy. They're weighted at the bottom so they don't tip and they don't move easily. Right.

And the last thing I want to do is move a garbage can that all the garbage falls on me. And, you know, I kind of like looking good. I don't like looking, you know i kind of like looking good i don't like looking you know like full of garbage uh either way folks but it's still i don't want garbage all over me so that's probably one of my biggest beefs it's why is it always there right um the other thing that they mention is you know trying to provide feedback and and of the, maybe not resistance, but the friction around that. I mean, you've got to be able to take feedback as a retailer and implement it and have a process for that. And again, this is where money makes the change. The places I go to frequently, I go to a local restaurant here, Big Rig here where I live, near where I live. And they did that the first few times, the garbage can was right by the push button. And I would show up there with my family and have a pizza there. I love the pizza there. I know I'm not advertising for them, but they've seen me come a few times, right? Like it's kind of hard to miss a guy in a wheelchair who shows up, right? And by the third time, I was like, I went back and I talked to the management, and of course the reaction is, well, we'll write off your pizza. And I'm like, no, I'm not looking for a handout.

What I want you to do is stop putting the garbage can there right yeah exactly right like like just take a little bit of time find another location for the garbage can inform your staff to put it in this place because it doesn't work for a person like me right next time I went in there, lo and behold, the garbage can was located somewhere else. That's a beautiful thing. That's yeah. Right. Simple. But it's because they recognize that I was an ongoing, ongoing customer and I show up there on a regular, consistent basis. That's the problem. The problem is, is that those other places don't understand that if you don't suitable for us we're not we're not going to show up all the time right yeah right yeah and so you know I go back to something that my wife and i always talk about and i think a lot of people talk about is the customer service is is becoming a challenge and it's becoming a challenge just not only for people with disabilities but for everything right now right yeah i hate generalizing that but but it is right yeah so i you had a big part in um the accessible canada act i know this about you um tell me me what was your role in that. Tell everyone what your role was. Well, part of my role, my role was more is to socialize the document. So I worked on a handful of items, particularly to it, but I spent a lot of time running from department to department, asking them what their take is going to be in it. So we identified departments that were going to have some element that would fall onto their lap to be responsible for.

So an example would be ESDC, Employment, Social Development Canada has a really big labor element. So we wanted to make sure that anything we talk about employment was going to be suitable to what their messaging was at to be suitable to what their messaging was at the same time or what their future messaging was so then we would go back and make sure that whatever we wrote it would it would be sound to that degree the other thing is I spent a lot of time um really working with the community to make sure that what our concerns were going to be embedded in it which is one of the coolest things I get to tell you is that um this is the only piece of legislation ever designed built for canadians by canadians but also by can with disabilities. The act itself is solely based, well, not solely, I would say 80% based on literally a room full of 200 various people with disabilities talking about how to do certain things. And that's where the seven pillars came up. I don't think there's a piece of legislation that could say that. Okay. For the folks out there you know how is ace how do you feel like aoda the act of the different acts how do you feel like they contribute to supporting just the real lives of people with disabilities as you're walking through the world wanting to engage in you know regular the kinds of activities that everyone wants to engage in we the thing is we got to keep in mind that there are there are two ways to do things right there is um we tell society uh what needs to be in place and then we tell all the players in that society how to appear to that particular directive. Right. Or we could live as a free living society. And then we just do our things and just hope everybody lives comfortably and exists comfortably. Sad thing is that doesn't exist.

No. Right. So we need laws we need laws to tell people how to ensure a minimum standard of adherence to ensure that you're not being disrespectful for people right and the way i see it as you know the first big move was the charter of rights you know people with disabilities were listed in the Charter of Rights. But the Charter of Rights basically said, thou shall not be discriminated against. Honestly, anybody who's listening to me, we've all been discriminated against numerous times. Yeah. Okay, so we need to refine that a little bit better, right? And I think what the Provincial and Federal Acts will do is it will start ensuring that people understand their rights, but it also starts to a certain degree with organizations, understanding how to provide us those rights, what they need to do to ensure that our rights are being up here too, for a very simple reason or a logic is you know let's use communications as we're starting to work in a more heavier computer lived world where emails is pretty much the most common way of communicating why can't our emails be fully accessible why can't i email create an email send an email and then a blind person on the other end or a person with a neurodiverse on the other end who i don't know can read it and understand it and they can function with this why can't we have that world and that's what we're trying to do. Yeah. That makes any sense. Yeah. I mean, I can see definitely a use for AI in that space for sure.

Not that, you know, this is what we're talking about, but you know, as you, as I was imagining, you know, solutions to that specific case of, you know, translating for different types of disabilities, I can write it in my, you know in the way that I'm comfortable speaking and it can be translated somehow into the way another person can understand. Right. What a beautiful way to use artificial intelligence.

 And I got to tell you, some of the stuff i'm starting to see with the i love this word in french melange with the melange of ai and and and other technology and accessibility all coming into like like a pot like a hot you know sauce totally and some of the stuff that's coming out of this is awesome and yeah you know i'm kind of a little jealous of people who are young and disabled now because i don't think their their world because the technology will be as harsh as mine you know they're going to have apps they're going to have things that are going to make things to a certain degree a lot easier look i'm not saying all things are going to be eliminated but i think there are a lot of things that will be yeah right and and ai and technology is going to be some of the driving factors to this yeah i mean i think it's a beautiful goal to try to make the sandbox as big as possible for people with disabilities to play in you know um how do you make a bigger world that's I think that's a beautiful idea you know uh i i was just reading a report yesterday from a colleague of mine uh who was talking about the Louvre, the museum in Paris, in France, Paris, how they are literally designing and building an experience that's fully accessible for this population.

 Wow. And for the record, I went to the Louvre many, many, many years ago when I was still walking, and that place is massive like you know whatever you're used to times the white pen and that's the signs of the Louvre okay so by them trying to make it accessible an accessible experience that's a heavy investment no no shit sorry yeah you, and part of my philosophy too is to work with people like you to make everybody aware that it exists because that's philosophy you built it, they will come as bullshit as well. You need to advertise the living heck out of what people are doing to make this a more accessible world. Yeah, and you need to band together. You need to find alliances, partnerships, collaborations. Yeah.

And, and it, it, it's interesting. I've been finding that like a lot of folks in the space are solopreneurs or like micro organizations micro companies you know like under 10 people and so it's really hard to make a really big impact unless you're collaborating with other people by yourself you know if you're by yourself or you're just working with a few other people so yeah that's it's really important yeah yeah the, yeah, that, that's a whole other side argument. Totally. Yeah. We can talk about that, but yeah, the, the, the reality is, is that for at least the foreseeable future, a lot of the driving forces will be from small entrepreneurial companies with people with disabilities but here's the really cool thing i will say in canada the uk australia united states and a handful of other countries these organizations have the first time in a long time the opportunity to actually grow to become multinational corporations the question is is who yeah who and how yeah yeah so for um a smaller you know perhaps a cafe chain who are interested in becoming more accessible uh and and have a few obstacles in the way, literally and figuratively. What do you say to them? What are your final thoughts?

Know your customers. At the end of the day, you're fighting for 10 cents all the time. And so sometimes you need to spend a dollar to get the 10 cents. But if you make your environment not only exclusive you know accessibly exclusive for people with disabilities you're opening it up to the whole community as well like that's the beauty of accessibility the beauty of accessibility it's not just you make the door wider and now just wheelchairs could come in and that's going to show up. No, you're going to see mothers with carriages coming in. You're going to see a whole lot of other group of people that, wow, I can get in here easily or whatever. You have lower counters. You're going to have a whole bunch of group of different people coming in. You're not going to put your garbage can by the right place, the wrong places.

 You're going to have more people who are as experienced and nicer and say, I'm going to come back and spend another dollar here. So, you know, know your customers, you know, and listen to what your customers are telling you. And then hopefully you get to survive a little bit longer and make some money. Yeah. As you were speaking, the thought popped into my head that accessibility is inclusion. What do you think about that? It is. Yeah. Right. How many, like, I don't know how old you are, but I remember the time when you used to go to malls. Yeah. And malls didn't have the self-opening doors, right? I know. They had the pull on them, right? Or the rotating ones, yeah right or the rotating ones yeah or the rotating ones right yeah who can get in those so go to a mall now how many of them have self-opening doors and if they don't how many of them have push button doors they all do why because it works for everybody well and the acts you know at a certain point they have to yeah it's legislated i'm pretty sure I would say it is but but i think from a from a from a mall point of view it was pretty much a no-brainer wait a second you can make doors open easier but it still closes so we don't lose the heat in the wintertime yeah let's sign up for that well and that's the thing it's like a lot of these um these retrofits or whatever they are um they're they're just good business you know what i mean like a lot of these decisions it's just good business in the end you can make it a win-win yeah yeah and the other thing i'll add um accessibility is also not an expensive equation and and we need to start having conversations with people and the answer cannot be about money because you know as stephanie cadeau says the the chief accessibility officer um when you're going to retrofit your place design it with accessibility in mind.

So that way it's not an extra cost.

 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 100%.

 Thank you so much for joining me today, Max. As always, it's a pleasure and an honor.

 Not a problem.

Awesome. High five.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!

Intro:

Meet Sydney Elaine Butler, a powerhouse in HR, DEIA, and neurodiversity. Get ready to uncover invaluable insights as Sydney drops some gems on how to craft an environment where every team member's strengths shine bright to maximize full potential in your team!

Website:

https://www.accessiblecreates.ca/

Stay in Touch with Sydney:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/sydney-elaine-butler

Script:

Communication is obviously the most important thing, you know, listening to people, actually like understanding what the real problems are, trying to get to the root of the problem.

 Everyone's mind is different at the end of the day. You know, we all have different experiences and ways we're brought up and all these different things that shape who we are. And that's part of neurodiversity.

 People learn often the most when they're outside their comfort zone. diversity. People learn often the most when they're outside their comfort zone.

 I think sitting down with them, you know, kind of having that second to actually talk to them, you know, I think a lot of times I feel like I'm at the end of my rope.

During the pandemic, like everyone, our team transitioned to remote work, and it was a revelation for many of us. We have a very neurodiverse team, and I really try to celebrate this despite some of the challenges. During the pandemic, many of us realized we have a strong preference for virtual work, and many of us built new lifestyles around the fact that we don't have to go into the office. On the other hand, for a few of the team, it made them realize that they needed and wanted the structured routine of the office and the camaraderie there. As we transitioned back into the hybrid model, these differences and desires became more vocal. Conflicts arose as we tried to establish new team norms. Those who preferred remote work felt isolated from decision-making processes, while those in the office felt burdened with more immediate responsibilities. Our attempts to find a middle ground only led to more friction impacting our productivity and team cohesion. Okay. I realize we need a more nuanced approach to accommodate our diverse needs. Any ideas? Enter Sydney Elaine Butler, whose expertise in HR, DEI, and neurodiversity seems like the perfect fit to help solve this conundrum. Welcome to the show, Sydney.

Thank you so much for having me, Erin.

So I guess the question of the day for this person here, we don't know whether they're male or female, we don't know anything about them, but they're looking to know how to create an inclusive environment that respects and optimizes the strengths of each team member, regardless of their preferred work setting. And it seems like they want to build like an inclusive and neuro affirming organization. So that's interesting.

Okay. So before we get started and dive right into this, I'd love to have you just share a little bit about who you are, what you do, why you do it, and what your big goal is.

Yeah, so again, I'm Sydney Elaine Butler, the founder of Accessible Creates. And so I actually graduated in 2020, which was only four years ago. But when I studied human resources at school and I was like HR needs to be more inclusive and accessible for people with disabilities and I was also working in a recreational environment having kids teens and adults with disabilities and seeing how my co-workers treated me and also my best friend that have disabilities and versus how they treated our participants and even how our supervisors treated us. And I was like, something really needs to be done. And so I realized I could do more as an external consultant, HR in diversity, including accessibility, focusing on neurodiversity, and really drive this momentum forward. And I think during 2020 and 2021, things were changing in this space. And so I launched Accessible Grace in 2021. And since then, you know, I've, speaking at events, speaking at companies, providing consulting for companies to really understand that sometimes they bring me as an HR consultant. And when I do that, I bring the neurodiversity lens, accessibility lens, disability lens, and then vice versa. When they bring me for that, I also have the HR lens. And so really understanding that it's all interconnected. for that I have also have the HR lens and so really understanding that it's all interconnected and if you really want to make the workplace better that it starts with just trying to do something and so my big goal is actually to have a big training firm and and right now I've found it accessible creates to be that training firm now I'm like maybe accessible creates to be the consulting firm and then also start a training firm to provide best practices for organizations because i feel like so many organizations are just trying to be compliant and that's that's the bare minimum and so how can you actually move beyond that and hiring subject matter experts in different areas because i'm not a subject matter expert in everything but they that can help us work forward.

 Absolutely. Okay. So what is your philosophy around neurodiversity?

Yeah, I think a lot of times people think it's a deficit or they think that, they think it's just autism and ADHD but it's so much bigger than that. And so my kind of philosophy is give people resources they need to be successful based on what they say they need and literally listening to people and being able to understand that people might communicate differently everyone's mind's different at the end of the day you know we all have different experiences and ways we're brought up and all these different things that shape who we are and that's part of neurodiversity and so just really understanding that we all have different brains and that, you know, we all have similar brain types and similar ways of communicating, but at the end of the day, we're all different. And that's beautiful. Absolutely. So what did you think about this challenge that we have in front of us? It's so interesting because, you know, she's trying to, she's like, we're trying to have a very neuro- inclusive team we have a very new inclusive team um i think that based on what you said it seems like she was they were trying to do a one-size-fits-all approach you know and really understanding that you know you have to really look at each individual case and see okay where does this person best thrive does it make sense to have them back in the office? You know, or have them work remotely? You know, how can we best provide these resources? How can we also, it seems to be that disconnect between, okay, people that are working on site versus working remotely. How can we better make that cohesion?

 And I think, you know, having, you know for example I did I do trainings for companies and sometimes now especially the last six months previous before that I was like all virtual everyone was attending virtually these my trainings I was doing through the company but now it's like okay they have a big boardroom and people that want to come on site and come to the training in person can all be in that boardroom. People that still are working from home can access that training from home. And so just, you know, seeing, meeting people where they're at. So what, if you were like working with this company, they brought you in as a consultant, what were the, what are the questions that you would want to ask to really understand the root cause or how would you go about it yeah i would say is there a demographic if like who prefers working remotely versus who works working on site or hybrid and really getting down to the nitty-gritty of why you know is it communication styles what is the communication like on site versus in the remote setting you know do you have any cohesion between making sure that the remote workers know what's happening on site and vice versa and so just these are some of the initial questions I would ask some of the teams that I've been going into it seems like the virtual people are very happy working virtually you know the people who want virtual they're like we're going to work virtually and they they're more like I don't care where people work if they're virtual or on site but I want to be virtual whereas the people who are they want the community aspect like the face-to-face community aspect they're more likely to be like well it's not fun unless everyone's here you know um it's not so much like that philosophy, like, you know, everyone can do what they want. I'll be in the office because that's what I like.

It's more like, you know, I want to be in the office and I want all my friends there with me, you know, I want you guys there with me. Right. And so I feel like it's the in-person camp, I guess, that are more likely to want that like holistic policy around when we're going to be in the office and when we're not going to be on the office or whatever. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think, you know, because they want the greatest sense of community and like you said, they want their friends and colleagues there. And it is completely different atmospheres but i think kind of making the case that it's an individual accommodation sometimes for having the remote work some people try better and really you know providing that space it's like you can check in you know you can be on site but so you know have virtual meetings with the remote employees and again i think then this just needs to be more done to provide that human connection for all you know and and really understand that bridging that gap because you know and understanding that you're not there to communicate at the same time like you don't want the sense of community but it's also like some people thrive better and work better at home and that creating that sense of community is important but then the day you're here to do a job and but also providing different options and you know it's like have a social you know have a you know is it a remote social that's what comfortable with?

 Or it's like, hey, invite people to a social once a week or once a month to connect. It's like, hey, virtual employees, come on in. We want to celebrate you. And maybe we can make it more of a celebration, a reward to incentivize bringing those employees in. And reminding each other that it's all working towards a common goal. Yeah.

And you know being like reminding each other that it's all all working towards a common goal yeah yeah and it strikes me that um when you said that they're they're looking for like one solution it's i think the line was our attempts to find a middle ground only lead to more friction impacting our productivity it's like maybe there is no middle ground yeah i think sometimes people always want that middle ground it's like but can you actually get that middle ground i think middle ground is like the ideal that everyone wants but it's like sometimes it doesn't exist and then sometimes you it it looks different than you thought it would yeah how can how can that look like like yeah I think you know picture again I think kind of again meeting people where they're at and so you know like hey and explain to people the situation and really understanding that it's okay this person needs it to thrive and do well in the work we understand that you want the most sense of community you have you know other people here that are already here that will also like you want to work when i have that sense of community but it's not feasible for everyone and really understanding that you can you you're never gonna please everyone you know i think a lot of times you as a business owner as ceo you want to please everyone and you know you want to obviously have the best things from your employees and get the most the most satisfactory they can do the most and be the most productive but it's not always feasible and being kind of okay with the uncomfortability do you think that this might be a loaded question so forgive me um do you think it's possible to accommodate everyone within an organization or is is there something like, maybe it's not a good culture fit? 

You know, like, where is your stance on that? Yeah, I think you can try your best to accommodate everyone. And so really by listening to your employees, I think I'm really trying to, you know, do the one approach for everyone, you know, not trying to do the one size fits all, but actually looking at individual's needs and say, okay, well, how can we best get you to that part but you know your individual needs being met and you're satisfied completely in every aspect of your job function but you know I feel like as humans we're never fully satisfied anyways and so but just you know knowing having employees know that you will are willing to accommodate them at any time and, you know, see, meet them where they're at and say, okay, what can we do to actually improve this?

Having check-ins with them, you know, seeing how they feel and really having those conversations and having those difficult talks. I'm curious, like, as you, as you're talking about, like, meeting everyone where they're at, it strikes me like something I learned a long time ago when I was managing people, meeting everyone where they're at, it strikes me like something I learned a long time ago when I was managing people, I'm still managing people. But when I first started managing people, it was that, you know, people learn often the most when they're outside their comfort zone. And so sometimes meeting everyone where they're at, it, it could be perceived as like helping them be as comfortable as possible.

You know what I mean so what's your um take on like you know how much discomfort is a reasonable amount of discomfort so that they're being pushed outside their comfort zone through learning something while also feeling complete like feeling like a whole person within their company yeah I think as long as you know you make sure that they feel safe and that they feel good about their work you know that's being the mother app but then also being like it's not feasible to do everything and you know it's like a stolen organization and kind of you know kind of frame it like that it's like what you said you know sometimes you have to grow you grow outside of your comfort zone.

 And so, you know, nothing to ask you to do anything dangerous, not to ask you to do anything unsafe, but just, you know, kind of pushing the envelope a little bit. So for people who, you know, don't want to come into the office because they like it virtual, do you think it would be reasonable to to suggest like, know different activities you know to go in the office even though that might be kind of outside their comfort zone or what how could we um push people who want to work virtually not push them but encourage them to be in person every once in a while yeah i think kind of like having different activities you've had team building activities that you can't that you can do them virtually but it would be better in person it's like and really highlights like this is going to be for connection and you know help i mean this is why you want to do the um activity and do the event because i think a lot of times companies just try to do events and activities and and the employees eyes it's like well why are we doing this you know it kind of seems meaningless to me but it's like hey we're trying to build team morale between our remote and on-site employees you know we want to thank you for all your hard work in both spaces you know and that kind of incentivizes you know having people come in person and i think also somehow like i think it's kind of to say because i think like not making it mandatory actually you know, having people come in person. And I think also, somehow it's kind of to say, because I think like not making it mandatory actually would kind of, then people are like, oh, if we make it mandatory, then people have to come and they're going to be more willing.

 I feel like actually the opposite is true. You know, it's like, if you don't be as mandatory, people, they feel like forced and they feel like they have no autonomy. But when they chose to do it and it's voluntary then they're like oh no i want to do it and but you explain the reasons of why and the team building or the creating this atmosphere then people think huh they'd be more actually more motivated to do it yeah for sure i completely agree with you i think people are forced they're much less likely and then when they show up they're not showing up with that like you know that mindset that you want them yeah they're just trying to like i was forced to be here i'm at the laboratory instead of like oh they generally want to be here and they because of why they're here yeah exactly like they know that people they enjoy are going to be there they know that there's going to be something interesting happening like um yeah maybe there's options um you know maybe they go there and they don't have to do exactly the same thing as everyone maybe there's like you know different varieties of things that yeah i think like yeah i think having like different activities for like different types of people again you know like it's like oh you're more social like have like a more like have like a dance party or like you know like have a right take a playing class you know oh you're more social like have like a more like have like a dance party or like you know like have a take a playing class you know like you're still with other people but you're working on another activity you can like share show with each other and just you know I think catering to those different types of people yeah for sure um how can we enhance how would you recommend to a team like this who is probably distributed and you know hybrid remote flexible whatever you want to call it um how would you recommend that they structure their communication so that everyone's on the same page or as possible yeah i think you know leveraging things like slack i love slack yeah i think Slack's such a huge platform. And other things like Slack. I think there's other ones that have similar. I can't remember the name of right now. The Flex Room that comes to mind.

But really having that sense of community. And you can play posts when there is events, you know. And post the different things happening within the organization. And that, you know, people that are working on site can communicate with each other via slack and also people working remotely you know everyone can be communicated there either in the direct channel or they can message each other directly and so i think that's a huge way to foster that communication and i think even leveraging video calls such as this you know understanding that you could be on site we could still have virtual meetings with people that are working from home or working remotely and so understanding that there's all these different tools and we have so much technology and platforms these days and so just really leveraging that yeah for sure um what else is important to making sure that your team like what are the what are the systems and tools that you would recommend?

Yeah, I think like the system is like kind of doing like, if you're the manager or if you're the CEO, just kind of touching base with your employees and like seeing how people are feeling about the current circumstances of their work and they're working virtually or they're working on site, seeing how people feel of seeing, does it make sense to do a weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly meeting with everyone that's no matter if they're remote or hybrid, and really having more cohesion. I think a lot of times right now, it's like even though everyone knows it's the same organization, it seems like there's two different organizations when it's on site and hybrid or remote. And so having more of those cohesion and using those tools that we used when everyone was remote you know and really so just because you're back on site does not mean you should lose all that great technology and those systems you hadn't played previously to connect everyone yeah um for the often it's the people who want to be on site who um may be like more frustrated a lot of the time if assuming that there is um when in in an environment where there's a respect for autonomy you know so we're talking about an organization here who has a respect for autonomy they don't currently seem to have a standardized protocol for coming into the office or not being in the office you know um so when when folks aren't getting what they want they can tend to get really frustrated right in this model it seems like the people who are virtual't getting what they want.

They can tend to get really frustrated, right? In this model, it seems like the people who are virtual are getting what they want. The people who are in person aren't getting what they want. And so it seems like they're starting to get very kind of more, you know, frustrated and vocally frustrated about it. In terms of the emotional atmosphere of the company, where would you start there? Yeah, I think really understanding, I think we're making assumptions that the virtual is happy and then the onsite is angry or more angry. But I think really understanding it's like, okay, where is everyone at, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, even just like doing a survey check, it's like, you know, kind of, are you on site? Are you remote? How do you currently feel about your work? What needs to be improved? What do you think needs to be improved? And so I think really understanding that, again, it's going to be an individual approach, but seeing where the gaps are and it's like, okay, this is, you know, it's going to be an individual approach but seeing where the gaps are and it's like okay this is you know it's like is it because you know is it everyone in your department there is it people in your department that are working virtually and then you like feel like you're missing people in your department is it into departmental you know is it people in different departments but you need to connect with them, be that they're virtual and I'm on site.

And so just really seeing where the gaps are, really understanding where employees are most frustrated and where they think that the most problems lie and how it's like, what kind of also what level of frustration or what level of emotion are they feeling? Is it at 10 out of 10 they're very frustrated or like i'm getting slowly getting more frustrated and really understanding where they're at i was like i'm just starting to get frustrated and i think when you break it down like that because it's like i hope like i think a lot of times too oh they're mostly frustrated we have to like do it now but actually when people start getting frustrated is when you should start like okay this person's starting to get frustrated how can we get it back to not frustrated you know instead of oh this person's super frustrated obviously you want to help them too and come up with solutions but not just focusing on those people that are what's end right um if they were very frustrated i'm curious like what kind of interventions would you recommend if it was like these people are going to leave?

Take a second to actually talk to them you know i think a lot of times I feel like people undervalue the importance of conversation in the workplace and it is having someone to feel heard you know and i think a lot of times people are like oh we don't think people are frustrated but they don't actually know how they're frustrated and you know we just see that there's a problem but it's like there's so many different correlations and so many different variables that could be making this person frustrated that's a mix of the home life that you know how they feel about the work they're doing the circumstance of being on site versus having people virtual and it can be a myriad of things but if you don't know that if you don't have that conversation with someone it's like oh i think you know you don't want to just diagnose the problem and be like well it's probably because there's virtual and then they're on site and at that first glance that's what it looks like you know they want that sense of community but it can be a lot deeper than that and seeing if they're that frustrated it's probably multiple variables right uh okay so they were very frustrated and it was something that hadn't been like say we're not it's not something that like it's been they're very, very frustrated, it's probably something that's been happening for a while. It's probably something where that, you know, they've vocalized and maybe it hasn't been fixed yet.

 Right. Like, it's just something they're feeling like, well, this is never going to change. In that case, what do you, what do you tell the leadership team? In that that case what do you what do you tell the leadership team yeah i think again really listen to your employees and listen to the people you're managing and again really understand where they're coming from kind of put yourself in their shoes and really and like have the empathetic ear you know but also that that willing to okay this is the problem and this person's feeling this way it's probably other people that are feeling this way maybe not this exact same but probably similar um and so kind of working on a solution to solve the problem and being transparent with them when you know it's okay we're trying to work on the solution because i think a lot of times managers or leadership are working on the problem but they don't communicate that to the employee so the employee feels like nothing's being done you know nothing's being done nothing's being done but sometimes the complex problems they take time to solve by just you know being transparent with the employee hey you know thank you for you said about and we're working on a solution but it is taking a bit of time um please bear with us or it's like we kind of hit a snag and trying to come up with a solution um is there any other things that you would like to see change you know or hey that that solution isn't feasible i'm sorry you know can we work together and come up with another solution for any other problems or, you know, other, any other solutions towards this problem. And really again, having that clear communication because a lot of times you're just left in the dark. Yeah, that's true.

A lot of the times you're not followed up with on the problem. It's almost like the problem, you know, people just pretend it doesn't exist anymore almost, you know, because it's, I don't know. I'm almost like the problem, you know, people just pretend it doesn't exist anymore, almost, you know, because it's, I don't know, I'm not sure what the, that's never been my problem. And I'm sure that's never been your problem either. So, okay. In terms of neurodiversity, you mentioned that communication is obviously the most important thing, you know, listening to people, actually, like understanding what the real problems are trying to get to the root of the problems, and then proposing solutions. Obviously, sometimes there's negotiation around that, like with a leadership level or manager, manager level, sometimes there's policies that need to change. or a manager at your level. Sometimes there's policies that need to change. But what is the relevance of the way that we communicate, the different people communicate in a neurodiverse organization?

Yeah, so I think, for example, if you're sending mass emails and communicating, it's like someone does not like communication, you know, and it's like, i prefer for you to say it aloud and it's my best process information i remember but then the flip side also if you're just communicating everything in a meeting and we'll have the transcriptions and not you know not sharing that intervention right after then that could get muddled you know and so for example I best communicate when I see written like when I see an email when I see a slack message and if you just say instructions to me or you say something to me I'd be like I can kind of get it but like if you wrote it down I would get the full picture more and I remember I worked with an organization and I worked with the CEO, directly with the CEO. And he would send me voice notes all the time. And he would be like, you know, saying I did a great job. We wanted to improve. And I would get it. But I was just like, I told him to send this to me in an email. Send it to me, you know, via Slack. Because that's how I best process information.

And you really need to meet people where they best process information. You know, and I think a lot of people are like we're really happy systems play so that that's gonna take more time out of my day but when the person doesn't understand what you said to them that's gonna end up taking more time of your day so just you know communicate how people need you to communicate like hey can i send you a voice note hey can i would you prefer text do you prefer email what is your preferred method of communication yeah how do we build that you know preferences not just communication preferences but all preferences into the process in an individualized way rather than having to like you know I'm a manager and I'm communicating I'm getting to know my employee. I understand their preferences, but then I have to do that with every single person that's on my team. And it becomes difficult to remember, you know?

So how do you recommend building that into the process of an organization so that there is like a memory of some kind? Is there anything for that? Yeah. I think even just like having it included right when the employee is onboarded is a huge step i think onboarding right now is very much the employee the new employee learning about the company but the company doesn't really take much time to learn about this new employee and so it's like hey what is your preferred communication what is your preferred different channels you know how can i best help you thrive with this organization how can I best help you be productive at this organization what do you want to get out of this organization and so really having that conversation and the employee should be onboarding the employee to the company and the company being onboarded to the new employee and i think you know when you when you have a new manager you got you know promoted or moved to a different department within the company you know having that mechanism it's like okay even like leveraging excel or having a document that has that you know this is the employee's name this is the preferred communication this is preferred x y and z and just having that because yeah it is a lot but once and then when you especially when you first start but once you you know you start doing it you start doing repeatedly and you start doing the process over and over again it kind of becomes muscle memory but even we're human we forget things you know so having it written down somewhere that you use all the time but I would I would say like just a excel file the employee name and having that information there. Yeah, okay. That makes sense. I haven't seen this before.

Maybe there's a tool out there that I'm not aware of, but what would be really interesting and I'm curious to hear your thoughts about this is there a tool that's been designed so that you can blast the communicate, like whatever communication it is, if it's a team you know organization level team level individual level but then you can send it in multiple formats you know what I mean so you don't have to you know you don't have to send the emails make the call you know do the slack do the text whatever it is you know but you can just do it in one place and then it goes and gets sent out in all the places. Is that overkill?

I feel like that's not overkill. It's a very interesting idea because I feel like so many processes now being automated. And so it's like, it's just part of that. But I think for the productivity, you know, that makes sense. And it's like, watch, it's a thing although someone's like thinking about it right now also um because i feel like people always come up with new ideas and coming with things to just make the processes better but i think when you still have i think you still need that human approach at the end of the day because because it's like it sounds nice and to have these you know the animated email to call to whatever the preferred channel is but I think when it really comes for that person and knowing that person's making an effort to communicate with you how you best need to be communicated it's going to sink in a bit more when you know it's just coming from a platform it's just like did they you know and so I think it makes a difference yeah I think so I think it would be interesting to have something where if like if I'm a if I'm better at stream of consciousness you know and I like meaning like I like I know a lot of people who just like to take audio you know they do audio and they send their audio um audio grant I don't know what it's called just like a recording um I know quite a few people who've been starting to do that, but like I'm, I prefer it in an email as well because it works with my whole system better.

 So I, I mean, I want them, I want everyone to be able to communicate way, the way that they feel it's easiest to communicate, but I want to receive the information in the way that I need to receive the information. I'm curious. I wonder if there's a way to like, you know, you know, create a system around those two things. Now we're going to start a product or something.

Starting a new business now. Yeah, exactly. Sounds like we're starting a company. okay um what else do you want to tell these guys like what is the bad news and what's the good news like if you just like could boil it down to like you know the most basic hardest information that you they need to hear what do they need to hear yeah i think that well kudos on being a neurodiverse team that's not the end all be all you know i think people are like oh we're a neurodiverse team or we have a neurodiverse organization and i feel like sometimes people don't really understand what that actually means or like you know it's like at first glance it is neuroinclusive in a neuroinclusive organization and team but it really isn't and so really understanding and also that you can't satisfy everyone and that you can just try your best but meeting people again where they're at and really accommodating those individual needs is what makes the difference you know I always say like you know trying to make your organization as inclusive and accessible as possible obviously where you can but you're still going to need to accommodate those individual needs i think sometimes people think oh well we are inclusive enough we're accessible enough but it's like people people can still each still going to each have the individual needs that need to be met are you accommodating those you know or making every effort to accommodate those. And so I'm making sure that they feel like they're included at work on an individual basis and not just as an overarching.

Right. Okay. Awesome. Thank you very much, Sydney. Been a pleasure and an honor.

Thank you.

We'll chat soon.

Sounds good.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Intro:

Ready to crack the code to business success?

Join us as Lisa Strangway, the powerhouse behind The Marketing Station, reveals the keys to unlocking your business's full potential. From deciphering consumer behavior to crafting captivating brand stories, get ready to revolutionize your approach to thrive and succeed.

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Website:

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Script:

What kind of products are they selling? How are they telling their story? 

You know, when we're so busy doing the business, working in the business, sometimes it's easy to forget the big picture. And then, you know, sort of one thing leads to another. And eventually you're not really left with the same business that you started with or the same vitality that you started with.

And once you do that work, everything else falls out of that.

 I'm the general manager of a local retail chain known for our trendy clothing and accessories. For years, we've enjoyed success and a loyal customer base, but lately we're facing a crisis. Sales are dwindling, foot traffic is down, and it feels like we're losing our once loyal customers. It's clear that recent shifts in consumer behavior and market trends are taking a toll on our business. Our brand identity feels stuck in the past and our social media presence is stagnant and dated. We're struggling to understand our customer base, which has become increasingly vague. Despite a desire to change and a budget set aside for marketing support, we're not sure where to start. So how can we adopt our marketing strategies to resonate with today's consumers? How can we revitalize our social media to engage our audience effectively? And what steps can we take to regain the trust and loyalty of our customers? Enter Lisa Strangway, owner of the Marketing Station. Lisa is known for innovative yet practical marketing strategies and disciplined social media implementation. How can Lisa help? Welcome, welcome, Lisa.

Hi, Erin. How are you? I'm so good. I'm so happy to have you on the show. I am thrilled to finally be on this show. I love it. I'm a big fan. So now I get to be part of it.

I love that you listen to the show. So folks, Lisa and I, and Lisa is the founder of the marketing station now in its 10th year. Congratulations.

Thank you.

She is an amazing friend of mine. We've known each other literally for a decade now. I can't, it blows my mind. I can't even believe that.

Wild.

And she's definitely highly, highly experienced and seasoned as a social media expert in content marketing and strategic planning for businesses. So I think that you're just the perfect person to help with this issue.

Well, it sounds like a very familiar story. I have, I have dealt with situations like this in the past. With path clients, or, you know, just colleagues that I've talked to in this field in the retail field specifically. So yes, I can definitely help here.

Yeah. It does seem like this is something that I this is definitely something that I have personally seen as well, not with just clients, but even just friends who are owners of retail stores, having to just, you know, things, I find things, you know, when we're so busy doing the business, working in the business, sometimes it's easy to forget the big picture. And then, you know, sort of one thing leads to another.

And eventually you're not really left with the same business that you started with or the same vitality that you started with. Yeah. And also don't forget that the speed at which things change these days is astronomical compared to even 10, 20 years ago. so you could set yourself up in a business um two years ago and it's already changed in terms of um digital capabilities so it's really important that you stay on top of uh trends and uh data right yeah um okay so for the folks out there uh who are new to the show, we're in season two of Weirdos in the Workplace.

 And this year, this season, we are focusing on supporting with practical problem solving with businesses. So every time we're doing an interview with a professional problem solver, just like Lisa, folks are coming on and we are going to be kind of doing some real brainstorming together. So today we're actually going to be looking at this problem through a model called the six thinking hats by Edward de Bono. And the six thinking hats, there are six hats, as you can imagine. And the first hat is the white hat, information and data. imagine. And the first hat is the white hat, information and data. There's the red hat, which deals with emotions and intuition. There's the black hat, which deals with caution and risk. The yellow hat, which is optimism and benefits. The green hat, which is creativity and alternatives. And then the blue hat, which is process and control. So we're going to basically look at this scenario through all of these different lenses.

Okay, let's get started.

So starting with the white hat, Lisa, white hat deals with information and data. So, you know, in terms of the insights that this retailer could gain from the world or that they should be gathering? What is your advice on that?

Yeah, so this is probably my favorite category. There's a couple things they should be looking at. First of all, look at your sales activity and take a look at the sales figures there and figure out which products and what type of inventory is actually selling. Look at your, and then for the products that are selling, figure out who is actually buying that product. So I know that they have a loyal fan base, but is that, or not fan base, loyal fan base, but is that not fan base, a customer base, but is that loyal customer base actually still purchasing items? Who knows? You have to do the digging and find out. And collecting information from, customer base is super important. You can do that through surveys, um, or through, um, you know, just talking to them in the store. Um, social listening is a really big tool. So take a look at what people are saying online and, and start to figure out what they're looking for right so maybe that's cool like are there any specific platforms that are used for social listening or is it more just like like sensing um you know through through like. So just reading comments, you know, which will give you a good sense of what people are looking for, for sure. You go to any Facebook group for a town or whatever, or a city, and you can even ask a question in there and see what people are saying. But, but there are apps and things available to you with the specific use of social listening. Interesting.

Okay, cool. I interrupted you. You were going to say something else, I think.

Well, I lost that train of thought.

Okay, the train of thought has left the building.

Yeah, seriously. In terms of competitor analysis, is that relevant these days you know because i know there's sort of two different thought ways of thinking around it i know folks who are very customer focused and they don't care crap about their competitors and people who are you know obviously customers are important but they also want to see what their competitors are doing and you know make sure that they're balancing everything.

So what, what, what's your opinion on that? I always a hundred percent recommend doing a competitive review. Okay. I would, I would look at your top five competitors and see what they're doing. What kind of products are they selling? How are they telling their story? Are they, what kind of technology do they have? So are they offering, you know, online purchases, free delivery, you know, all of these things are going to help you get a good picture of where you stand within that competition.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Let's move on to the red hat, emotions and intuition. How, as a consultant, marketing consultant, do you advise your clients on that, that storytelling aspect that you just shared a minute ago?

Like how, how do we tell a story that evokes emotions? And yeah, let's stop there. Let's ask that question first. Right. Well, first you have to really understand who your customer is and who your potential customer is, right? So that's why the research part of this is so important. What are the values? What are they looking for? What do they, you know, what do they aspire to be? What's their lifestyle like? And all of that. And then the best way to engage with them emotionally is to craft the story. engage with them emotionally is to craft the story so craft not one story several stories that you can publish on your website and on social media that will with the goal of appealing to that side of them right so appeal to their emotional side so if your target market is, you know, a busy mom of two kids, full, and she works full time, and she values quality time with her kids, with her family, you know, you craft a story around that somehow that relates obviously back to your product but how how can your product or service appeal to that part of that target markets world right so that's an example but right yeah so in the case of like this general manager who's managing a local retail chain really you don't know what stories you're going to necessarily tell about your business until you understand your customers. Is that what I'm hearing?

Absolutely.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. So it sounds like customer really understanding the customer at a deep level is the most important starting point perhaps. It is the most important starting point. And once you do that work, everything else falls out of that. Hey, so I am curious. How much can we trust our gut instincts as entrepreneurs? Yeah, I'm a big believer in gut instinct. Okay. Yes. Now, having said that, it's really important that that's not the only thing you rely on.

So it's gut instinct plus data or research or any kind of quantitative, you know, results or data. uh you have to have you have to have a balance of two now and i would say if you're just focusing on data then you're missing that part of you you know your gut which you know if you're the owner or the general manager of a business to me that says that you have some type of passion for that business so if you don't have an instinctual gut feeling about it, then maybe you're not in the right business. It's interesting you say that actually, it just struck me like, you know, what if your product or service, you know, isn't quite perfectly aligned with your passion anymore?

 You know, like, how does it ever see see that in your clients does that come up for you um like yes but it's it's not it's not something that is like easily detectable because especially with an owner I think an owner and a manager are two very different roles so I'm just going to speak about ownership. If you're the owner of a business and you're not quite passionate about it, it's going to show in your results and it's going to show in the amount of time and work that you put into securing the future of your business.

Okay.

Which means doing the homework now and and doing you know investing in your business if you're not passionate about your business anymore you're not going to be taking those steps so yeah I have seen that um and um it always makes me sad yeah it always makes me sad because maybe at one point this person was passionate and something happened along the way you know they got disillusioned or maybe uh they just decided this isn't something they wanted to do but i've seen other times uh situations also like sometimes health related you know oh yeah health and stress you know there's lots of I think reasons why people can become disengaged um yeah yeah definitely uh yeah and sometimes I've seen it where they're just at a place where they're kind of ready for retirement and you know they just haven't really done the planning and they're just sort of checked out a little bit so that's I've seen that too. So that's, those are big feelings around that. Yes. So the black hat is caution and risk.

And you did touch on risk, I think in the first question as well, but what risks, I mean, the obvious risk of, you know, if you don't have revenue, you don't have a business um other than the obvious risks you know what what do you see for their business if they don't make a change immediately well if they don't make a change immediately well i would kind of uh use different wording for that if they if they don't start doing the work um to figure out what changes need to be made then they're going to cancel themselves out if they can't evolve they're going to lose their audience and by audience I mean customers yeah so the risk is you know not knowing not knowing who your target market is and maybe going too broad.

You know, if they use strategies and tactics that is meant to appeal to a very broad fan base or target market, they're going to miss out because they're not, they're not going to be providing, um, a product that is actually needed by a specific target market. Okay. Um, have you noticed that business, our, our, our business is niching more than they used to. Is this a trend? Yes.

 Okay. Yeah. It's something I've noticed for sure because uh you know with i think with technology today it's a lot easier to uh drill down into your um into your target market and really figure out uh through research methods and stuff figuring out exactly what their needs are and sometimes you find out that maybe you can narrow down your product offering to really hit that mark for them. And so you're decreasing maybe what you're offering, but you're increasing your sales and maybe the frequency in which people are buying. So that's why niches sometimes work. Yeah. Is there any time where you would not recommend a niche?

 I think it just depends on the product being offered. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's hard to answer that question without knowing specifically. Well, if we use this example, I would recommend that maybe they niche down. But again, I'd have to know more about the target market. Right. Yeah. Okay. right yeah okay um i'm curious about if we could go into that just a little bit um so when you're creating like a customer persona along with a client what are the steps that you go through for that like what is what's the really important things to identify um well i always ask the client to send me whatever data they have.

So it's, and a lot of times I don't get it. But it's, you know, give me a general sense of who is coming into your brick and mortar store, right? I look for, you know, general observational data probably is what I'm going to get. So the age, the sex, the purchasing patterns, frequency in which they come in, any kind of anecdotal data they can give me. You know, do they know their customers?

Do they talk to them do would they recognize them if they were walking down the street you know are they coming in with strollers are they coming in you know a certain time of day I need all of that whatever the owner can give me will give me a bit of a broad picture and then I drill down and what I do is I look at that industry and I look at what the typical customer would be right so there I mean that research is available out there on the internet and I so I look at that and then I compare it to you know what I have from the owner and I see what the gaps are, if any. And so that helps me round out what the, what the persona would look like. So it's a lot of research. It's a lot of talking to the owner and looking at survey results. If I'm lucky, they have survey results, but you know, startups don't have survey results. If I'm lucky, they have survey results. Right. But, you know, startups don't have survey results.

 So, yeah, it's a little bit of both. And I come close. It's not an exact science. No. But I do come close. Yes. I mean, as someone who owns a business and is, you know, I've been part of a few startups, my own and other people's, you know, sometimes it's like, it feels like a little bit of a risk, you know, deciding to like focus on one or, you know, a cluster of particular customer personas, like a target market. It does feel like a risk. And I think that sometimes that that's a trap that I think people fall into is not wanting to pick a person, pick someone who you believe is going to buy your product. Well, again, we're going back to that whole thing about too broad of an audience. You know, it's like, you know, how do you craft your messaging? How do you how do you how do you craft your messaging?

How do you develop your creative? I mean, everything stems from your customer personas. So if your customer persona is everybody in the whole wide world, how are you going to get your messaging across you know to the whole world you know if every single person is a potential customer right we're not gonna hit any marks right you know you just think of it as that you know put it down the funnel and then at that at the bottom of the funnel you have like the cream of the cream uh you know the people that are most likely going to buy from you and figure out what is going to get them to buy yeah that's what a customer persona is supposed to do right okay so going back to black hat and caution and risk um i'm curious because i think this is like a very natural, you know, human behavior to want to minimize risk.

And we know that, you know, in most cases, diversification minimizes risk, except I think when we're talking about a target market. So but it feels like a risk. So what do you do as a marketing professional to help it feel like less of a risk with your clients? You mean developing that target or that exact? Yeah. Well, I have to explain to them that, um, oh, well, I mean, this is what I always say to clients. I say, you know, you have to start somewhere. So let's, you know, so far, yeah, you haven't tried any strategies.

So why don't we try this strategy and this strategy and see how it goes. And then we'll revisit it in three months. Honestly, like marketing is, you know, it is part science, but it is part gut instinct, like you said. And it's a lot of, you know, data crunching and stuff. But at the end of the day, it's not an exact science. Okay, so and anybody who says it is not been in marketing for very long. So what I say is, let's just try it. What I say is let's just try it.

I can tell you as a professional and based on my years of experience that you're going to get better results if you focus on a particular market and you craft your messaging to that specific market. But if you don't believe me, let's try it for three months, see how it goes. And then we'll look at the results and we can pivot if it doesn't work. So that's how I, I, I'll, I always get a yes when I, when I kind of position it that way. And, you know, all I want is success for the client. Right. 

So at the end of the day, I'm not going to recommend something that I don't think is going to work. So I put the power back in their hands and I say, you know, it's your decision, but let's, let's try it and we can always change it. Yeah, definitely. And you'll learn something from it. Right. And I'm sure there's always something to learn from, from a test.

 So, yeah. Okay. Yellow hat is optimism and benefits. So what is the good news here? Well, the good news is that this store has had a loyal customer base and they have had a lot of success in the past. The other positive thing is that they are looking to make some changes, to pivot, because they know that they need to do something. And they do have a budget, which is huge. They have set aside a budget. So right there, that tells me that they're serious. And that's the positive thing about this is they have the right mindset to pivot and change and grow. Oh yeah. Mindset is literally everything.

And you know, people who poo poo that, like they haven't, they just haven't gotten there yet. You know, like. Mindset is everything. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So green hat, creativity and alternatives. Is there anything like outside the box that you'd recommend here? Or one of the other questions that I would ask in the scenario is if you were working with no budget, where would you start? Oh, I have a lot of ideas for this. This one, I mean, okay. The first thing I always say is, okay, let's take a look at your network.

See who we can collaborate with. That's a, you know, a win-win situation for both that doesn't actually require any kind of payment, but maybe it's a, it's a collaborative promo on social media where you're, you know, partnering up and offering a huge prize and you do some type of contest, but definitely collaboration is the first thing I would look at. Okay. And the second thing I would look at is try and step out of your business for a second and imagine what it could be. So more than a store. Okay. So this is a store, but what could it be other than that? You're selling clothing, but could this be a meeting place for women?

Could you have fashion shows could you do you know i don't know any type of little event wine and cheese events um sure take a look at what you know what can you do in your space that will make it more of a destination okay and what it already is yeah so for brick and mortar stores i always look at those two things and um it's bound to create traffic i love that yeah make your business a destination. Yeah. Blue hat, process and control. So how do we, you did touch on this earlier, but like specifically, you know, you're testing a new campaign.

 You know, we're working with this business, this retail chain. We're testing a new campaign for them. How do we know if it's been successful right so uh whenever you whenever i start a new campaign um i do a full marketing plan for it and part of the marketing plan is making sure that you identify what your specific objectives are but every objective needs a measurement tool absolutely or else you're just throwing money out the window.

So we call them KPIs. So key performance indicators. So you always do that. That's the first thing you do. So for a new campaign, I would look at social media data. So the reach, engagement, impressions, website analytics. so how many more people are visiting the website how long are they staying on the page are they uh clicking on anything you know that type of thing uh and then surveys so uh if you've never surveyed your fan base, I keep saying fans. Can you tell I come from a different world? We forgot to mention Lisa spent a long time with the Ottawa Senators in marketing. I'm never going to get that vocabulary. Well, raving fans. We're all trying to create raving fans, are we not? Yes, yes. 

 Raving fans

Yes. Yes. Rating test. So surveys, you know, and I would hope to God that they would have some type of database, customer database. But if not, that would be one of my recommendations is to either start collecting email addresses so that you can survey on a regular, on a consistent basis. So whether that's once a year or once a quarter, whatever it is, it's consistent and you create a baseline of numbers and then you measure against that every time you survey. So, and you'll be able to get some good data that way.

For sure. And of course, sorry, sales sorry sales obviously are you selling anything you're not selling anything then the campaign probably didn't work no okay so that is that is interesting though because there are a lot of people who focus on marketing that you know there's different you know goals when it comes to marketing you know brand um reach or brand awareness there's different, you know, goals when it comes to marketing, you know, brand, um, reach or brand awareness, there's community building. There's like a bunch of things, obviously revenue is one of those things.

Um, like what is the, like what, what, I mean, revenue is that number one, the number one goal? Well, I have to say it depends on, it depends on the business I'm working with. Okay. If we're using this, I'm using this as the example. It's a brick and mortar store. Obviously, they're doing all of this because their sales are dwindling.

 So I would say the number one is to increase sales by X percent. And you need to figure out what that X is. So, you know, I would ask for sales figures for the last year or two, even to see what the sales trends have been and and then figure out what a good KPI would be for that. And so I say, yes, sales for sure for this, but they did mention that their social media was dwindling and there was no engagement whatsoever um so you know the second one would probably be to increase awareness increase awareness of the store and increase engagement with the content that they're putting out um and engagement could mean clicking a link that goes back to the website.

To me, that's a valuable result from a campaign. If people are actually, you know, taking action on the content that you're putting out, that's what you want at the end of the day. At the end of the day, you want people to go to your website and make a purchase for sure yeah or walk into the store and make a purchase totally yep awesome um any any final thoughts i want to actually help the store so yeah it's too bad it's an additional store yeah yeah this is well it's an optional store based on you know numerous experiences that I've had with clients and um but but certainly you know if you're you're out there listening to this and you're thinking is she talking about us uh Lisa might be a good person to chat with oh absolutely I love retail um and I love, you know, I have so many ideas when it comes to retail. I used to manage, I used to do the marketing for shopping centers. So I understand the retail cycles. I understand, you know, the ideology behind retail strategies.

And I just love it. So yeah, I love that your example to this story was amazing. Well, this is this is like, like I said, it's like it is a real story. It's a real story. It's an amalgamation of a couple of stories that I'm, you know, we're aware of.

So yeah, we hope that this resonates with people. And I think it will because it is, you know, a common issue, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming, Lisa. I am happy to be a weirdo in the workplace. I am very happy. You are an official weirdo now. I love it. Yay. Yeah.

Thank you so much for having me.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. 

Intro:

What does it take to redefine your business and reach your full potential? In this episode, we sit down with Peter Georgariou, the CEO and Founder of karmadharma, a full-service marketing agency dedicated to helping organizations achieve their goals. With a background spanning national sales, marketing, and operations at top media companies, Peter has a wealth of experience guiding SMEs and non-profits through strategic planning and brand-building. But his true passion lies in being of service to others - whether that's supporting his wife and two daughters, or amplifying the impact of the organizations he works with. Join us as Peter shares his unique perspective on how businesses can evolve their value proposition, leverage their strengths, and make a lasting difference in a fast changing and digital society!

Website: http://www.karmadharma.ca

Stay In Touch:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/petergeorgariou/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/karmadharma-agency/

https://www.instagram.com/karmadharma.agency/

Script:

I am very aware and my sense of urgency is very high on how short our walk on this planet is.

That's what culture is going to be changing every time something changes within the organization.

People are going to read this. My friends are going to read this. Maybe they don't see me in that lens, but I think that's where the magic happens, Erin, like getting them into like being out there as themselves and letting go of the good and bad opinions of others.

 Let yourself jump off a cliff once in a while and see what happens.

Here's all the benefits for you. Here's how this is going to change your world.

My favorite thing is to sell it, to change somebody's mind from like resistance to like, oh yeah, okay, I get it. I'm going to do it. Bring it on.

---

I'm Jordan, CEO of a five-year-old consulting firm. Our journey has been rewarding, but we're now facing challenges in a rapidly evolving market. The demand for digital transformation and specialized services is growing, pushing us to adopt and stay relevant. Securing long-term contracts has become tougher in an economy filled with uncertainty, impacting our revenue and growth plans. Competition is intense, with both new and established firms fighting for the same clients. I realize I need help to navigate these turbulent waters, redefine our value proposition and get us from where we are today to our big future goal of becoming the go-to consultancy for digital transformation, guiding businesses through the complexities of technology adoption to enhance their competitiveness and innovation in the digital era. And so I'm me, Erin. I'm very happy to have Peter with me today, the CEO and co-founder of Karma Dharma, a B Corporation. And Peter, I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit about you and what you do and why you do it.

Get started there. I want to change the world, Erin, while I'm here. Life is short. So yeah, CEO of Karma Dharma, we're a strategy and creative agency here in Ottawa. And we're slowly moving into a little bit of what you guys do into that people and culture as we realize people need a little escorting along their journey to help them along. So anything from strategic planning to full service, creative agency from creating brands to websites to you name it, and we take them to market. So that's us over there. And why I do it, I want to help individuals and organizations have the courage to be themselves in this life, kick some ass, you know, like it's, it's, I am very aware and my sense of urgency is very high on how short our walk on this planet is. And I'm assuming walking asleep at the wheel is not a great life. And designing a life of meaning is not easy.

So we'd like to help them in that journey. So this is a fictional client of ours, we're going to pretend that we're working with this client. But, you know, what would you say, you know, when you read this story? How did you feel?

 I feel like when I hear the word compete to start, Erin, I get nervous. I think that's especially working with a lot of small businesses. And in the B Corp world, there's a lot of small businesses, solopreneurs, as we've chatted about. And they're starting often from that scarcity mindset. So I think the mindset from the beginning is something I like to work through with our clients. I think there's plenty of business for everyone. There's always been competition in every industry. Sure, it can vary a little bit, but digital transformation right now, I'd say is a hot topic like sustainability consulting. I figure there's a lot of people trying to do that. So I think there's a lot of demand and he needs to figure out how he rises to the top of the supply chain.

Okay. So what would make you a good person for Jordan to work with on this topic? What's special about you?

Gotta call my mom for that one, Erin. I think we ask good questions. I think we really want to work with our clients to a shift that mindset, like I talked about, and help Jordan find his why, because there's one thing there's doing digital transformation, but why this is his jam, why this is his life's work, or why it's part of his life's work. And what's his zone of genius and all that like where is he really the guy for this or his organization is the place to go and figuring out you know it's not any ingredient in their recipe because there's a lot of overlap in the industry and there's a lot of commonality and digital transformation but i would say there's an ingredient set that i'm convinced that Jordan and his team have, um, that we can help Tice out, you know, and tease out, I should say, um, and then help him develop messaging to go to market with that.

Like how to, how does he convey that people have difficulty distilling themselves, the essence of themselves and why people should care. Um, so we joke that we're professional distillers over here, minus the gin. But yeah, I think we are a good fit to help him figure out how he is different in the market. Because there's either you're the cheapest option or you have to differentiate. There's only a couple of ways to win. And so he's got to figure that out. And not just against the people his size i find a lot of the people we talk to compare to themselves so there's nobody doing it exactly like us but there's a lot of substitutes for them there's a lot of different ways to do it or they have this philosophy oh the big guys are eating my eating my cake um and so i think it's just navigating that conversation to figure out where they are mentally at the organization and then helping them elevate above that into their own spot.

Okay. Um, so you said that, uh, well, one thing I love that you said was the zone of genius and Patrick Beck, that David, I don't know if you know that gentleman, he wrote a book called your next five moves and it's awesome. So I highly recommend that to anyone listening. But he called it the zone of fascination. And I just love this idea of like the zone of genius and zone of fashion fascination.

Tell me how do you tease that out of a person?

 Um, I think in all your secrets. Yeah, no no are you kidding no they're not that secret um I think it's creating early on a zone of trust here and with these people like literally having a conversation around you know why are you doing what you're doing beyond the table stakes I need to feed my kids and all of the just stuff, how we show up just to pay our bills and to bring them to a spot of meaningful contribution. You know, I believe we're all here to be of service to our communities and to allow people to dream a little bit about that and to go beyond the functional aspects of work and why this lights a fire in under Jordan's bum or, you know, like why is this his place? So I think it starting from creating a zone of trust where there's no wrong answers and not a safe space, cause there's no pure safe space, but creating a brave space where this person can, you know, speak to what their challenges are, their fears are, why they aren't showing up as their best selves or something I fought with a long time imposter syndrome.

Why, oh my God, it can't be me. Why do I have the answer? Why would they believe in me? Like a lot of us are fighting this in certain different ways. So just leveling the table or the playing field that he's human, we're human. You don't have it all figured out. Neither do we, neither do your competitors. So why don't we just really hone in on your spot and your sweet spot? And in a, you know, I was born in the U S I've been up here for 40 years, been a long time, but I find in Canada, we are very conservative business wise. And we are very fearful of quote-unquote bragging, whereas, you know, you told me at the beginning of this call, there's nothing wrong with selling. So I think that getting out and saying, hey, why are you awesome? Why should they pick you? And it's okay to tell people you're awesome. You don't have to be a jerk about it, but I think you can go out and tell the market you have something that you believe no one else has.

And oftentimes, if other people are doing that, perhaps it's your why that's going to differentiate you. You're doing this to rebuild your community, to save the planet, whatever that might be, right? To help people, small businesses get out of and compete with the big boys, whatever that might be for him and his business. of compete with the big boys, whatever that might be for him and his business. I think it's diving deep and getting out of talking about the senators and the weather. It's just harder than you think for some people, because even in the way you positioned your case study, it's a very transactional, I'm in a competitive land state. How do I stand out? And then, okay. So these are very versus, okay, how do you make this your life's work?

 You're going to spend 40 years at eight hours a day. That's a lot of frigging time. Why don't we just make this something that at the end of your days, you look back and say, Hey, I made a difference while I was here and reposition what you're doing through that lens. Yeah, definitely. It strikes me that the kind of what I would have called sort of the BHAG of the case, the guiding businesses through the complexity, the becoming the go-to consultancy for digital transformation, guiding businesses through the complexities, blah, blah, blah. As you were talking, kind of struck me that there is no why, you know, there's nothing that has to do with a why in that statement whatsoever. Not that this is a real case, but this is again, something that I've seen over and over and over.

Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I think that back to the transactional nature of, of businesses or, or jobs, right. You know, people are in this because I need to provide and it's not available to everyone. I even think at times it's of the privileged few who get to think about something beyond just putting food on the table and being up a couple rungs on Maslow's pyramid. I think it's a privilege. But I also think it's a mindset, you know, whether you find that through the work or outside of work, you know, becoming that best version of yourself in service of the world is low key or the goal of every human in whatever form that takes for them. really helps them stand out. And it helps them stand out even in their language and how they communicate that once they found that resonance in their inner self, not to get too woo woo.

But, you know, once they've done that, all of a sudden, it even infuses meaning for them into what they're doing and the impact they could be making. And hey, all of a sudden, I'm going to walk you through a digital transformation that's going to, if you get this right, cut your costs, allow you to compete with bigger players, allow you to provide for your family or those trips or whatever that means. Digital transformation could change the lives or will change the lives of entrepreneurs and businesses and their employees and all these things. There's a massive ripple effect of Jordan getting this right. So now we're talking, we're not just talking about switching, you know, to your project management system.

 We're talking about helping people live a great life, you know? So I think there's something underpinning any product or service that can, if you are passionate about it and it's not just transactional, I think there's an opportunity there to have people dream bigger a little bit. Totally. And like you say, like, I think, you know, your why doesn't have to be changing the world over that many hour why. No. It could be, you know, I had this idea in my head. This is me talking. I literally had this idea in my head since I was a child that I wanted to be an employer. And that was because I wanted to be able to give people somewhere to work, you know, somewhere I wanted to help them have a life, right?

 Right. So that could just be the goal. It could just be, you know, I want to give my employees the most people possible, a great life and somewhere stable to work, you know, because there's a lot of unstable work in the world. There's nothing wrong with the why being, you know, just your internal community. That is your why. I don't know. A hundred percent. I think changing the world is intimidating. I mean, I put it out there, but I think everybody's could just be, I need to provide for my elderly parents. I could like, it could be that gamut is huge, but it is usually beyond the business itself, right? It is, you're generating this money and this income to use it as currency or as energy to go fulfill what you want out of this life, right? So I'm with you on that a hundred percent.

So if Jordan's your client, you know, and he's coming in, he's saying we need to stand apart. Yep. You obviously, you mentioned you start with why the self-awareness, the understanding of, you know, who, who, who they are and what kind of impact they want to make, whether it's the community or the world, where do you go from there? Then we start working on, you know, this is the branding side of the house for us is really how they want the world to perceive them. Right. So there's, there's the branding side of the house for us is really how they want the world to perceive them, right? So there's the what they do that a lot of people get lost in. And it's very, you know, just, hey, I do A, B, and C. And this is, you know, usually you go to a lot of websites, they say, I do A, B, and C, it's gonna be great versus, hey, here's what's in it for you, Mr. and Mrs. Business. Here's all the benefits for you. Here's how this is going to change your world. Here's all of that. But we also work on what we call brand tone and personality. So personality-wise, how do you want to be showing up?

For us, you come to our site, people might be like, oh, I love these guys, the people who tell us that. And then the other people who never show up because they thought we're dope smoking yoga teaching god knows what and so they just leave so i think there's having that courage to stand up for yourself and not just what you say but how you say it and being okay like yo this is me this is us this is the way we roll this is how it's the beginning of that engagement with people and if they feel energetically like, these are my people, or Oh, my God, these guys are scaring the crap out of me. It's pretty good. They know it up front, because you'll start to find your people a lot sooner. Because so many websites or comms pieces are just so tofu, they don't smell like anything, they don't taste like anything. They're bland as hell. I'm not saying Ottawa's worse, but I don't know. I see a lot of that.

And I would say, you know what? There's something about standing out is hard for people. Being different is really hard. Like I decided not to call Karma Dharma, Peter G's media media company right i said ah this is this is what I believe in and if they don't like it they can kiss it um but the ones that do love it and i would say to jordan like as we move towards it how do you want to be perceived or there's a great question out of a conference a month ago and i can't remember the lady who said it, but she says her question was, who are you uninterrupted? Like if you would just go tell the world everything about you, your org, and you didn't have to worry about how you thought they were going to receive that information and you could just speak like that, A, it takes courage, but B, we like to work with them on that first draft. And I will tell you, we've done a lot of this where like, they're quite nervous to put that out in public. You know, the website piece or whatever, it's like, okay, people are going to read this.

 My friends are going to read this. Maybe they don't see me in that lens. But I think that's where the magic happens, Erin. Getting them into being out there as themselves and letting go of the good and bad opinions of others. You know, and there's that, you know, that book, The Five Regrets of the Dying. I can't remember the name of that lady. She worked with palliative care and I would definitely. And so anyway, she goes through the top five regrets. And the number one is, I wish I had had the courage to live a life in line with my values and who I was and not to have compromised. So I find when I come full circle to doing like brand work or the teams doing the brand work for these companies is so many of them are fearful to be truly themselves in this world. And ultimately, it's so sad. You're like, wait a minute, you're paying us to help you go tell them. And then you're still like, what if they think I'm silly or stupid or not good enough, or Johnny and Mary over there are saying it different than me. And they seem to be kicking ass. And I'm like, well, you're not Johnny and Mary. And I think you standing up as yourself is the ultimate gift to yourself. That's not easy work, Erin.

I don't think for a lot of people, right? To just like show up because you are going to have the haters and you got to, we really want to print these t-shirts. We need some courage ourselves. I want to have these t-shirts that says F the haters. You got to let go of these people who are just not your people. Yeah, absolutely. I will say something though, that you said right at the beginning there, I want to, I want to touch on this because you said something like, you know, they might come to the website, they might see karma Dharma, they might freak out and run away, but that's okay. Cause we're not their people or whatever. Yeah. I want to say like, if, if anyone's listening and they go to karma Dharma's website and they're like, Whoa, if if anyone's listening and they go to karma dharma's website and they're like whoa freaky like they're not I would I would hold on to that feeling for a minute because that might be exactly what you need you know you might need to be a little bit scared if you're getting a little comfortable um I know I feel like the best moments that I've had, the best learning, the best mentors, the best teachers are the ones who challenged me. You know what I mean?

The ones who were like, I was like, I don't know, man, like, I feel terrified to go there. It sounds like a lot of work, you know, maybe it's not like do it anyways, because to me, that's where all the growth happens, right? But then everything else you talked about through that entire, you know, that last couple of minutes was all about fear. A lot of it was about fear, right? So- Amen, yeah, for sure. So facing your fears, if you can support people in facing their fears, I think that that's the most valuable thing that you can do for other people. What a gift. And it just happens to be, we do branding and marketing, but I would argue that back to my intro saying, helping people have the courage to be themselves in this lifetime.

And I'm still client number one for me. I went to a conference six weeks ago and this lady gave a workshop on imposter syndrome and took my breath away, Erin. I was, I can't believe I'm still battling this at three months from 50, you know, and, but it was just an extreme motivation for me as well to take that leap of faith into, okay, I still have some letting go. I'm not, everything I've said is very far from preaching from a place of mastery. It's really from a place of practice that I'm still working on, talk to our team about all the time. And letting go perfection is not possible. It's actually a, it's a plague, this perfectionism thing. So anyways, I think full circle is this journey of stepping forward into courage or back into fear is a constant decision at every moment in your life. And you have these opportunities and sometimes you just need some people on your side to help pull you forward a little bit.

Absolutely. Yep. Or drag you kicking and screaming sometimes. Maybe. Maybe. It's funny you say that because we talk a lot about, you know, we can't do your pushups for you or we can't want it more than our clients. So sometimes as we can open up the coaching mindset and approaches, we can present it to you and help you find that solution for yourself. But the dragging rarely works, right? We joke about it and I get it. And sometimes you get dragged along and you're like, thank God I did. I mean, I have teenage daughters and most of the time I lose, but occasionally I drag them along and win. But helping them find that intrinsic motivation within, right. To help pull them out of their shell or that conditioning that's been like, you know, protecting them from judgment or whatever that might be and letting them like, you know, just peek open a little bit and looking out. or whatever that might be and letting them like, you know, just peek open a little bit and looking out.

Maybe it's not the dragon kicking and screaming. Maybe it's let yourself jump off a cliff once in a while and see what happens. Yeah. Mama birds are doing it all the time to their baby birds and there are lots of birds around, but yes. You got it. You got it. So what is the relevance is the relevance to, you know, the market research, competitive research, you know, all that jazz, like, what is, is that important to your process? Or is it, you know, mostly like really getting to know yourself at a fundamental level? I feel there's like the right answer and my answer and I don't know if their mind's the right one, Erin. We do a lot of competitive research just to see how the other brands are positioning themselves, how they're presenting themselves both visually and in their messaging. So it's really good to see that. The counterweight to that is sometimes that can get you away from what you're trying to accomplish because you're like, Ooh, yeah, we should do that. Or we should say it like that. Or I love that you start going to see these websites or documents and you're like, you know, they've got it nailed down or they got a big marketing team. I don't know what, but so, so yes. And still hold space for, despite all, when I launched Karma Dharma, or I would say this for crap, any restaurant out there, if you did your market research, you'd say, oh, well, this market's saturated.

There are tons of players in this market. You know, there's a million marketing firms or there's a million even the strategy side of both of our businesses there are lots of people who can help you do this um same for restaurants so why the hell would you ever go open up if you see because the market research could tell you oh there's no space there right or it comes full circle to the intro of your question of your case is i'm competing big and small and all of this. And you're just like, I got to go. And then immediately you're in this scarcity mindset. I've got to go eke out my little bit of this. And I'm not so sure that's the healthiest place to be launching from. So I think back to the people thing. I think anybody's business, your people are out there. They are waiting for you. You need to find ways to go help them find you, obviously. But so I say yes to doing your homework. Don't ever not do your homework. But I'm a bad example because I started the business. I had no business plan. I said, hey, I know a bunch of people after a long media career, and I'm going to go call them and see if I can start a business and go. So I feel there's that, there's that agility, you know, you guys do agile work at your shop. So, you know, there's that ability to make some quick decisions on some initial hypotheses and have your MVP, your minimum viable product and go test it out and let the market tell you versus you kind of stewing over it endlessly on these fake website pages or your endless business plan. So yes, homework and get out, ship your goods, get out, let the market tell you if it sucks or not. And that's a hard place to be, I think, for a lot of people, because once again, there are going to be people tell you it sucks and that hurts, but there's going to be a lot of people who love you too.

Yeah. What's the, what's the saying? It's like strong opinions loosely held, right? You want to go out into the market with, you know, confidence. But if, you know, based on the feedback that you're getting and feedback as quickly as possible, talking to as many people, delivering to as many people as quickly as possible, regardless of whether you think it's perfect or not, because guess what? It never will be. And that's tough for people. Yeah. I have a preamble, Erin, if Lynn Lyons was your thing, is I reserve the right to change what I'm telling you today, tomorrow, if I learn new stuff, right? Because strong opinions loosely held. I get new information. If I were to look back on our last seven years, my batting average on the correct hypotheses is for sure under 500.

 There's just so many been wrong, but there's been a lot of good. And in business, you're making decisions every moment of every day almost you know so there's a high volume of decision making and kind of got to let go of those other pieces because i thought this would be great oh six months later that was stupid uh you know but but you learned something right you learned i think that i was drawn to the agile like the agile space and agile frameworks because of the fact that I'm so often wrong that's funny well what do you think about Jordan absolutely suck your instincts suck I think my instincts suck my instinct about people are great my instincts about like the broader market suck um but I what I'm really good at is helping people not be perfectionists and just get something out there.

And then let's see what people think. Let's actually ask them. Because when I make I learned like my assumptions are are just terrible. Like I can't make assumptions. This is probably one of the reasons why I try not to make any assumption. So what would have your what was your answer to the market research question? assumption.

 So what would have your, what was your answer to the market research question? I think it's a yes. And because I think people want to feel like we've done our due diligence. So from a business perspective, you, I think we have to do some market research for sure. But the market changes, especially right now, the market's changing very quickly. So I think going out and, and talking to people and being and being okay, even like with your business, like holding your business somewhat loosely as well, so that you can have the space and the mindset to shift if this are or aren't working. If they are working, you do more of that. If they're not working, you do less of that, right? So, but I do think, I think that the research is important to help you understand what the variables involved are, right?

I agree. And I really, you said holding your business loosely. I've figured actually it was someone from Invest Ottawa actually who told me the worst tech companies are these guys who are married to the technology they've created and not the problem they're trying and not the problem they're trying to solve. So they're like, look at my widget or my features in this. And then they're, well, nobody's going to pay for that or wants that. And then I realized for us, I guess, us Karma Dharma back to the full circle on the why is we know why we exist. We want to be a movement for individual and organizational fulfillment.

We want to help these people live their best life. So the products and services we offer today may or may not be with us in five years or 10 years, because I'm not married going to have a creative agency or we're going to really focus on this section of the business where more really all of our energy is towards the impact that we want to have. And we'll figure out how we layer in business services to create that underneath. And that is loosely held big time, like, you know, and I'm saying this to my team, Hey, I'm not sure. We'll have all these products and services in time probably, but maybe not. But that just allows us this space for that growth mindset to find different ways outside of ourselves or find partners who do things we don't do and bring them in. 

And like, it just allows for a much less rigid structure around how we want to solve these problems. And I don't know, I would like, clearly I'm biased, but I'd like to gift that to people to more loosely held vision of their business, right? And what they're trying to accomplish will allow for a lot more inputs to come in when they're ready to receive them. Yeah. I mean, it does. I mean, similar to your work, the work that I do is often considered an investment for clients, you know? And so it's tempting to want to go in, and this probably goes for any business, digital transformation included, Jordan, where there is an investment to be made.

You want to, you know, your clients want to believe that it's, this is the last time they'll ever have to do it. Right. But the, yeah, but I mean, chances are that this is maybe the first time they're ever going to have to do it. Right. When we go in and we support with um culture shift shifting a culture guess what culture is going to be changing every time something changes within the organization someone goes on mat leave someone especially small business you know what i mean um so you need to be continuously improving that and i think same with your marketing materials too. You can't just, it's not just a one time deal, right? I don't think. this November.

 Thank you. And my wife and I are not the same people we were when we got married. And so we've had the ability to grow together and stay together and learn together. But the same for your organization. When Jordan started his business, we look back on stuff we did three months, six months, 12 months ago, and we don't recognize ourselves, right? Because we've changed the way we're approaching problems has changed like our, from proposals to content to you name it. Everything's changing all the time because we have individuals have changed. And people want so much certainty. I feel there's like this fallacy of certainty. No, no, no. This is the right thing. And we've got it nailed.

And then, okay, tomorrow the market's going to shift a hair imperceptibly and sometimes you have mega shifts like chat gpd gets launched 18 months ago and then every service business in the world is you know uh having to pivot but i think often change is so small and minute until you see it like six months later and you're like hell a lot a lot's changed in this little while and so I would say back to back to Jordan or to any small business owner is what we're doing today is a stake in the sand for who you are today um you know and a lot of our work funny enough if I come back to Jordan and the case study is you you know, we're finding in, we do the strategic planning work like you guys do.

And so there's part of it there, you know, okay, here's where we are today. We're at point A, we want to essentially a strat plans. Here's point B, we want to get to point B and here's what it looks like to get there. And we're realizing back to the culture work you guys do, Erin, is the bigger issue is not identifying point B. the bigger issue is not identifying point B. The bigger issue is that gap and who do you have to become to achieve point B as individuals, right? Because there's no org change without the people changing it. You are where you are because of who you are today. And then helping them becoming mindful and change that thing. And to your point, culture changes every time there's a mat leave or whatever that might be. But holding a little grace around the fluidity that is life and business, right? And that's not always easy.

 Yeah. Okay. So this has been an awesome conversation. And I just want to say thank you for coming on the show. And I have one final question for you. And that is, if you were Jordan, what's the one question he should be asking?

I think it comes back to, if I only get one, Erin, I think it comes back to initially like, why you and why is this your life's work?

Awesome. That's really good. All right. Thank you for joining me, sir.

Thank you. It was a pleasure.

It was awesome.

 Thank you so much for inviting me.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. 

Intro:

Feeling stressed, distracted, or disconnected at work? Are you a business leader looking to boost productivity, engagement, and retention? Or an employee struggling with burnout and work-life balance? You're not alone. Today, we're diving into the powerful connection between employee wellness and business success with Lydia Di Francesco, the Founder of Fit & Healthy 365, and Creator of the 15 Minute Workout Club!

Lydia is a Certified Personal Trainer and a business coach who helps companies and organizations succeed by prioritizing the health and wellbeing of their workforce! Get ready to learn practical techniques that can be used anywhere, anytime, to help your people and your business thrive, by strengthen your mindset, managing stress, and cultivating work-life harmony.

Website Url:

https://www.fithealthy365.com/

Stay Connected with Lydia:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lydiadifrancesco

Script: 

Life is short and we aren't meant to just suffer.

They're not willing to put their money on something. They're not willing to like, you know, strategically bet on something. They want to try to do everything. And I think this is a fear response.

Also allows people a proactive approach to their health.

Feels like you're banging your head against the wall and there's nothing you can do about it. You feel like there's nothing you can do about it.

And it's actually in your best interest to even just take a break. Even if you want to work a lot of hours, take some breaks.

This case is from Alex, who's the HR director at an employee experience software company. And Alex says, we've been riding the wave of rapid growth and success in the tech industry, but an increasing number of our employees are reporting feelings of burnout. Absenteeism is on the rise. Productivity is taking a hit. And there's a general sense of exhaustion in what used to be a vibrant and energetic workplace. To add to our worries, our pipeline seems to be stagnating and leaves are drying up. I know I'm not the only one who feels an overwhelming sense of impending doom, says Alex. As a company that prides itself on valuing employee experience, that makes sense as an employee experience technology company, it's incredibly frustrating to find ourselves unable to practice what we preach. The well-being of our employees and the overall health of the organization are at stake. All right, so enter Lydia, a consultant specializing in workplace wellness and employee engagement. Welcome to the show, Lydia.

Hi, Erin. I'm so happy to be here with you.

Excellent. Okay, so for the listeners, please tell them just a little bit about yourself and, you know, why you love this work.

Yeah. So I've been in the wellness space for 12 years and counting. And I started out mostly on the fitness side. And then over the years have acquired a bunch of different certifications and knowledge and experience and have been working out for the past five years with on the more corporate side, working with organizations, helping them support their staff with their well-being. And I love this work because for me, just with how I've lived my life, like we can maybe get into this later if it's relevant, but I have had a burnout before. So I know what it's like. It was surprising to me when I was going through it. And of course, as a wellness professional, I was like, this is kind of ironic, maybe. But I learned a lot. It taught me a lot. And I also learned a lot about how to live my life and how to create a lifestyle that supports my own well-being and make sure that I'm not, you know, heading into a burnout. Again, I've learned a lot about work-life harmony and how to bring that about for myself. And I also just really believe that life is short and we aren't meant to just suffer through it for the most part. Like, obviously, we're going to have challenging times, of course. But, you know, for lack of better phrase, like life shouldn't suck always. And work is such a big part of that. You know, so for me, it's important for people to like, feel like, you know, that's a good part of their life, or at least not dreading it. You know, that whole like, oh, it's the Monday, what do they call it? The Monday worries, it's not the Monday worries, but whatever they call it about worrying about Monday. And then like, you know, people are like, oh my god, it's I'm so excited. It's Friday. You know, like, I want people to be okay with every day of the week, and just to be more healthy. You know, I see a lot of people who are not overly healthy and, you know, are kind of putting in the time now hoping to maybe one day just like retire and but who knows where their health is going to be at in that case, and probably not in a good place. So some big motivations for me, you know, I've got some big missions in terms of changing workplace culture. And I think it's a really great time right now, just coming off of the pandemic, you know, where there's a lot of opportunity to rethink how we do things. And so yeah, it's a really exciting time to be in the space. the space.

Yeah, it sure is exciting.

And like, I mean, the, from this story, um, when Alex says there's an overwhelming sense of impending doom, you know, man, like that, that is something that I think a lot of my clients for sure have been feeling this sense of impending doom. Uh, and it's impacting their, the way that they can like you know perform impacting their health impacting so many different areas um one of I mean I don't even know where where would you start if you're if you're Alex where where do you start so it's this might be a bit of a weird answer uh Hopefully not.

But I would like weird answers here, by the way. I know, right?

We're weirdos. Is that what we're called? Weirdo now? Am I a weirdo now that I'm part of this podcast?

 I mean, are absolutely certified weirdo for sure.

Amazing. I mean, I think I was before, but now it's official. Hooray, I can get my little like, yeah, we'll get you a t shirt for sure. 

Yeah we'll get you a t-shirt for sure um you know I think I was thinking about this um and I honestly would start with a conversation with the leadership team and a real conversation with the leadership team um in the sense of getting their buy-in and real buy-in not fake buy-in and real buy-in, not fake buy-in, and their support. Because I've seen time and time again with clients that I've worked with, where if the leader is really not on board with changes, especially kind of cultural changes or things that can impact the culture, it's not going to trickle down to the employees or not in a way that's as effective. You know, a lot of times I see leaders where they have this sort of like, do as I say, not as I do kind of vibe and it doesn't work, you know?

So if I'm Alex, I want to make sure that if I'm going to put in a lot of effort to try and make some changes or like hire me and I put in the effort, um, that the leadership team is really, truly understanding that there might need to be some, or really do definitely do need to be some changes made to how things are done. Um, and are they willing to participate actively and be supportive and do the things that need to do that need to be done and then really kind of go from there yeah that would be my starting off okay I as you were talking it struck me that you know obviously they need to be leading by example and I think that's something that we both have probably seen as, you know, it's a lot easier to say you're going to do something than to actually do it. Right.

So, I mean, you know, there's tools in the toolbox. One of them is building a strong enough business case. What would you suggest to Alex in terms of like, where are we gathering information in order to solve this problem? So we can build the business case that's so airtight that people can't ignore it. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I think a bit of what you were saying was in the story piece of the absenteeism, the loss of productivity. You know, I think for me, so the next sort of researchy phase would be survey things like basically informal and formal talking to the staff. Right, so it could be surveys. So for example, like I have a sample wellness survey that I provide to my clients that they could use. And that's more on the kind of more wellness side of things, sort of pulse check of where people are at. I think looking at the quantitative data that exists.

So in terms of like the absenteeism, in terms of sick days, in terms of any kind of leave that's been taken, even in terms of, I know there's sometimes ways to track, like how many meetings do people have, right? And like, are they spending, how many hours a week are people spending in meetings? Whether or not we're judging that as productive time or not, that's kind of a different piece, but just as a pure number. So there's a lot of data that I would look at in order to sort of get a sense of where things are at. And then the qualitative side, which would be part of like the survey, really with how people are feeling, where, where they're at.

 You know, I think doing some group discussions sometimes can be helpful, one-on-ones, that sort thing I think those are those are really good places to start and then really looking at what does it mean like what is the data saying and what is the impact right of the data in terms of are people heading down a track where they're going to be taking a stress leave or quitting or you you know, even though even the productivity pieces is so important, especially, you know, for this company that's growing, you know, they do sounds like they definitely need to be figuring out what's going on with their lead generation and their sales pipeline. And, you know, we need people to be at their best, right?

 In order to be able to even just think strategically and creatively, right? Like if people are mentally zapped or even physically or emotionally zapped out, right? They're not going to be on their A game. And even, you know, in terms of problem solving and coming up with good solutions.

So I think it's really kind of looking at like the big picture of what's happening in the company in terms of of employees their health their well-being their engagement all that kind of stuff um I definitely see the irony that Alex is talking about right that they're an employee engagement company and they're having employee engagement company, and they're having or employee experience company, and they're having issues with that.

Yeah.

But, you know, I think if, if they are that kind of a company, and they believe what their values are, then, you know, they should be able to turn things around. Yeah, yeah, you definitely hope for sure. Yeah. Yeah, do you, is it possible to like benchmark some of these data pieces against other, other companies like in the same space or in different spaces?

 Like, have you ever heard of that before? And how common would you say this kind of scenario is based on your experience?

Yeah. I mean, yes, there are some benchmarks. So the survey, for example, that I have, it's not, I didn't make it up. I got it from a very reputable source, have benchmarking data that you can compare your results to, which I think is great. So there's, there's quite a bit of stuff out there in terms of being able to, to gauge where people are at. stuff out there in terms of being able to to gauge where people are at um and 100% this is a very common problem I would say um this issue of burnout and overwork is certainly on a lot of people's radar I'm getting a lot of people approaching me a lot of clients talking to me about it wanting to figure out how to solve this issue um you know there's a lot of clients talking to me about it, wanting to figure out how to solve this issue. You know, there's a lot of the phrase, a number of people have used with me is that they have to do more with less.

Yeah. I know that's been a very common theme, at least so far in 2024, which is a challenge, right?

Because a lot of times times there aren't necessarily a lot of massive things that can change um but at the same time I think that there are components and it's also I think that a lot of times organizations don't spend enough time thinking strategically and thinking about what are the pieces that are the most important for their business right in terms of what people are spending their time on and I think that's where um which I know doesn't sound like a wellness related thing but it absolutely is. Right. Um, and like urgency and priorities.

And I think I, I see it a lot, especially with the government clients that I work with where everything is portrayed as urgent and priority and you just get more urgent and priority items piled on a Right. A lot of times, if not.

No. Right. And so I think, I mean, maybe a little less in private sector, perhaps. But I think where that's where sometimes there needs to be a bit of a reality check of like, you know, is this really? Or like, is this how we should be using our time? Like, for example, you know, with Alex and the case, I think a little bit into working with their company, I would want to like have a discussion with their sales team or business development team and basically be like, what are people spending? What has worked in the past? What is working now?

What are people spending their time on? I know for me, that's something I've had to learn as a business owner, right? Of like, I've actually learned, I'm not the best at it yet. It's always a work in progress, but like how to be focusing on the things that make the most impact for myself, for my business, from a financial standpoint.

 Right. And so for me, that's where I think though, a lot of times people can get caught up in like, let's call it the busy work. Yeah. Necessarily massively effective.

Yeah. I mean, I see that as well. I, when you were talking about, um, kind of like diversification, like everything's important. I, I see that almost as like a response to fear. You know, I see that in a lot of leaders where they're not willing to put their money on something. They're not willing to like, you know, strategically bet on something. They want to try to do everything.

And I think this is a fear response. It's like, we're afraid that what we're going to put our money on isn't going to work out. So we're just going to spread ourselves then and hope that something's going to work. But guess what? Hoping and praying is not a strategy. right it's not shocking yeah crazy yeah no I think that could could in a lot of instances that couldn't very very well that um yeah I mean I think it's I think it's also and I know one of the things that we wanted to talk about was the idea of communication and, you know, I've seen it and, and I have less of this problem, but in a lot of workplaces, there's just now an endless number of ways to be communicating with colleagues, right.

Whether it's, I mean, barely the phone, but sometimes people should be using the phone, you know, email, Slack or Teams, chats, Slack or Teams or Zoom virtual meetings, um, other forms of instant messaging, text messaging. Uh, I don't even, carrier pigeons, like, I don't even know. There's so many different ways and so many different channels. Um, and a couple of friends of mine even that I've talked to are like I literally can spend an hour of my day bopping back and forth between all the different channels and you're literally not getting done no um you know a lot of times stuff like that is just again it sounds so simple of a problem but people don't take the time to think about it how they just feel that overwhelm of like there's so many ways of getting a hold of somebody plus not to mention the people who have their notifications on for all of the things oh yeah you know and it's just there's like pop-ups and dings and dongs and it's like, it's too much for the brain, you know, in people, it's just, it's just too much.

So, you know, even having conversations around what do our communications look like? How can we streamline the ways that we communicate with each other and, you know, try and reduce some of the volume or the noise, or at least make it more efficient or effective, right? So I think these are some things to consider as well. I can agree with you more.

You know, those team norms are so important. I don't know, you know, in this case, we'd have no idea what the team norms are as a company. I think we can probably assume that, you know know if there's an overwhelming sense of impending doom there's probably some a sense of urgency right which we know can lead to some really you know toxic behaviors yeah uh and you know a lot of the time things just get derailed so it's really about like who's going to be the anchor in the storm who's going to say like no this isn't the way we do things here remember we yeah remember our team norms exactly well and I think too like a lot of times people push through um and and especially thinking about this company and how they're probably overworking a lot.

 You know, they've got a lot going on. At a certain point, and it's different for everybody, you're just not as effective. No, it's actually in your best interest to even just take a break. Even if you want to work a lot of hours take some breaks because you're going to be way more productive when you step away I've had times where and I again I'm speaking like high from experience um right where there's been moments where I'm literally in front of my computer and I'm just like bopping from this checking that checking my email checking whatever I'm really not productive it's kind of tired and I need a nap but I'm like no no I'll just I just gotta keep going and I've learned that it's actually better for me when I'm getting this for whatever reason I may be sick I I might've had less of a sleep, whatever the case is.

If I'm tired, it may be for some people, they don't need a nap. They just want to do some sort of other break. But for me, I can take a nap and then I get up and I'm just so much more refreshed and I'm so much faster and my brain is firing on all cylinders. And I'm so much faster and my brain is firing on all cylinders. And I think too often people don't realize that that's happening. Yeah. And it's, again, though, that's where the leading by example comes into play. And if you have a leadership team that is that sort of like, just go power through, just drink the coffee to stay alert and stay awake.

 That's again, going to trickle down to, to the staff and see those kinds of behaviors. They're going to see emails at all hours of the day and feel like that's normal and also feel like that's what's expected you know yeah it's tricky for sure but uh yeah I think and I always tell people I'm like prove me wrong like if you don't believe me take those breaks and tell me that you weren't you know more energized after for sure do you think it's appropriate to ask your team members if they're sleeping okay like just like out of like genuine um curiosity or concerned like is that like how how do you dance around that I mean I think it would have it would be less weird if you just didn't do it like randomly um yeah. You look a little tired today. Yeah. What are you trying to say? We love to hear that.

No, exactly. In the sense of someone said it to me the other day, but I was tired. And I'm like, I also don't have makeup on today. So, you know, but no, I mean, I think it's a great question. And I think it, to me, it's a great question. And I think it, to me, the answer would be yes. And a leader should be having just wellbeing conversations in general, right. Of how are you doing actually? And even, and I say this in my building stress resilience course often, but in a way that's appropriate finding out a little bit more about people's personal lives so that you can have a general sense like even just things to ask about but also just for you to know right that maybe that's why they're off or maybe that's why they are behaving a certain way. Right. A lot of times people have things going on in their personal lives that can, as much as people like don't want to bring that to work, like it can happen. We're human, of course. And so, you know, having a conversation about like, are you getting enough sleep?

Are you, is your sleep a good quote like are you sleeping okay like not in like again not in a weirdo sense but just in an a caring sense and I think it's where it's normal is if having these conversations are habitual regular not and and genuine okay that that is that is a key piece where you have to actually as the leader really do care like it can't just be like hey how you doing like are you sleeping okay and then they give you an answer and you don't engage or who can tell actually care like it's going to be so obvious yeah we know you know in our hearts if someone cares about us or not yeah exactly and so I think that's where and and I will admit that it can be a lot as a leader to kind of have that on you um right but I mean I think it's also though from the perspective of and this is also something I tell leaders is like your job is not ever to diagnose anybody your job is not ever to fix anybody it would be as or where appropriate to support in a way that makes sense right and so you know you have a conversation about sleep for example and maybe the answer is no I'm not and then maybe like okay well is again it depends on the relationship but you could be like is there is there like is the reason something related to work for example is it because you're working till midnight or is it a more personal related thing? Or for some people it could be, um, you know, if I have a menopause workshop that I'm preparing for, right. It could be a woman who is in perimenopause.

And so she's not sleeping as great because she's sweating in the night or having cold flashes or whatever. Right. So there's different reasons why that aren't necessarily work related. But I would say, you know, the leader's role would then be to provide some support or direct to other resources that are available to that employee so whether it's something through the benefits or something else right so again it's it's just being I always kind of refer to it as just like being human um in that case um as opposed to being like the fixer because that's not the job right it's just your job is to be a caring human to a person who happens to be a report to you. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I think those I think those kinds of conversations are absolutely needed and helpful and can really, you know, benefit everybody right and also for the leader too to maybe even see trends right if they're talking to their staff and having these conversations you know like in Alex's company's case for example like there could be some some things that some of the leaders are seeing that are trends within the organization right because it kind of depends on lots of things, like the demographics of the employees and all that kind of stuff and what other things they might be dealing with. But yeah, I always encourage conversation of all different shapes and forms.

For sure. And then like once you've had the conversation, if you're getting honest feedback, accepting it, right? Because self-awareness, like how do we change anything if we're not aware and self-aware of what the issues are or if we're you know if we're distancing ourselves and the responsibility for them a really good practice for leaders for example regarding we were talking about priorities and urgencies and stuff like that a really great practice is for you as a leader to be obvious about those things when you're sending off requests to staff, especially if you're sending things at a time that isn't like a typical work hour.

Yeah.

So one of the, one of the really great practice for leaders is for them to, uh, set out the expectations. So for example, if I'm sending an email with a, like, Hey, Aaron, I need this info from you. Instead of just leaving it at that, right. Um, you know, maybe saying I need it by x date or if it's super urgent or like say like oh i i really need this by like 2 p.m today super sorry i just got this last minute request blah blah for the cases right but being um more clear about when you need things especially if you're asking somebody to do something for you either to get information or to do a task giving some sort of a deadline or a sense of the level of urgency or priority that this could be is really helpful yeah not that complicated no it doesn't take very long. And it's free also. Right.

We like free.

And it just can help with clarity. It can help with that expectations, the priority management, even overwhelm in terms of like being given a lot of things, but no being able then to know, okay, this is, I need to do this by this date. And then that also gives someone autonomy to have some more flexibility in how they're structuring their own time as opposed to just constantly being in reaction mode to somebody else right yeah you know and that's a really important you know important part of burnout right so?

So, you know, feeling like you have little or little or no control is one of the factors for burnout. You know, lack of clarity. These are other factors being under being unappreciated, and, you know, not recognized, these are some other factors. And these are some some things that I mean, I feel like I'm a very common sense person. I feel like, you know, can be fairly simple, and not super time consuming to help with at least to make better, right and improve. Yeah. So when this came up in the discussion, somebody and a leader that I know said that this was a practice that she did. One of like she kind of works sometimes late in the evenings. And so she would batch send emails, but she would be really clear about when she wanted stuff by.

 And I just was like, that's so great. Right. Like, so she's doing work at a time that makes sense for her. Awesome. Love that for her. Um, but she's also then helping to reduce, you know, overwhelmed from her report, getting like a flurry of emails all of a sudden, um, you know, and not being like, Oh crap. And the instinct to do things right away when you're asked is real for a lot of people. Absolutely. If you're like, I feel even for me, like if someone asks me something, absolutely. Unless told otherwise my instinct is like, Oh, they probably want this now.

Right.

And that's why they're asking me.

Yeah.

 Um, and a lot of times, like, like even for me as a leader, like I'm just thinking of things all the time and so I might send off a thought because it's in my brain now and I know if I don't send it is I'll get on for sure right yeah I think I think you know what I'm where. Yeah. So for me, I've adopted and I'm trying to adopt this practice of being more clear about like, this is urgent, or you can do this on Tuesday or, you know, to work on later, you know, that sort of thing. And again, it's just, it's a, it's a different way of communicating that may take a little bit of time and practice to adopt, but it definitely can alleviate a lot of issues.

 I feel like for sure. When you mentioned like one of the key elements of burnout is a lack of control. I totally get that. I feel like the only times I've myself flirted with burnout is when I've been very frustrated, you know, and it feels like you're banging your head against the wall and there's nothing you can do about it. You feel like there's nothing you can do about it.

Yeah.

 Like what other tools in the toolbox, just really quickly, because I know we've got to kind of wrap up, but what, what kind of, what other tools in the toolbox would you recommend for organizations that are trying to combat this issue?

Oh gosh. Yeah. Great question. No, no, it's all good. How much time do we have? No, I'm kidding. Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, a lot, Oh, another thing that we didn't talk about, but that's, that's again, for me, I'm also about like simple, effective solutions that can have an impact immediately. There's a lot of things that will take time and there's some things that can be impactful quickly. Another one, meetings. Again, super common sense, but do we have an established meeting hygiene kind of guidelines, right?

In the sense of, you know, meetings are by default 25 minutes or 50 minutes. So we can have breaks in between. minutes or 50 minutes so we can have breaks in between um you know we always have an agenda or at least a sense of what the meeting is about someone is leading the meeting um and keeping it on track right we have some action item follow-ups like somebody's been taking notes or something like that um Ideally, really honestly, things are sent in advance. So we're not wasting time reviewing stuff that people could have or should have reviewed at another time. Right. So even stuff like that.

And really, I love what Shopify did at the beginning of the year where they basically scratched everybody's meetings and blew it up. Yeah i love it they burned it down deleted all the meetings for those who don't know they erased everybody's meetings on their calendars and we're like okay now you have to really think about what meetings are actually important yeah i mean not just the ones that are habitual, you know, but again, like so many people I talk to just live in meetings and that that's, that's a, there's so many reasons why, but again, having those conversations, thinking about how we can, how we can do this better.

 You know, I, another thing that I'm a big fan of is it, I mean, we were talking about the absenteeism and the sick days and stuff like that, but also like, so sometimes if it's too much, obviously that's a sign of a problem, but looking at it also from a sense of like giving people a day off in the sense of like it's not called a sick day it's just a day off for whatever reason and again I feel like that number one means you don't have to justify why you're taking this time off we're all adults like we really should be trusted um and it also allows people a proactive approach to their health and i think that that's also i mean we could that's a whole other conversation about um proactive health care but you know having a normalized day off policy where people can take a day off because like either for mental health or just because they're a little fatigued and just need a mental rest day like just from like too much thinking mental rest right yeah you know and and having be okay.

 And having that not be a thing where you have to explain that. Right. I think having like, so from like a policy perspective, I think there's again, a little, a little shifts and changes that companies can do that can have a good impact. I was chatting with somebody else the other day who was saying that they an employee of theirs had requested time off and and they were like oh yeah I know it's because I wanted blah blah blah and the leader was like I don't care like not that they don't care but like they don't care right like it's fine you need the day sounds like me I don't care you don't like we have like a no reasons policy basically I don't need to know any reasons you need the hour you need the day and and I think you know again that's also goes back to that sort of empowering piece right where where we're treating people with respect we're treating them like um they are a grown adult and I and I think for people who say, well, like the what ifs or what abouts, the people who are not going to be doing a good job, it's going to be obvious regardless.

Yeah. Do you have these great policies or not? It's going to be clear. And so as long as you know what they're supposed to be doing and they're not meeting their goals. They're not doing it. Exactly. Yeah. So I think there's, but there's, I think there's just a lot of lingering old practices of very like heavy handedness that I think hopefully are kind of being dismantled. If we could say fingers crossed, but I don't think they will be if we keep with the throwing the spaghetti at the wall strategy, you know, I think that's really a limiting factor in seeing this transformation go through.

Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, I, I'm, I know we have to wrap up, but I'm something to leave our conversation on maybe for a discussion for the future, or maybe even another person who has more expertise on this. But what I'm super interested in is the changes that are going to happen because of the new generation of workers that are coming into the workforce and how they've grown up. Now there's lots of issues. A lot of them have more higher anxiety, more mental health challenges, but they also are less bought into this concept of like work is life. Yeah. I will do anything and all things for my job. And compared to the older generation.

Right.

So I think that's going to be a super fascinating thing to look at in terms of how things shift and change. And, you know, I think pendulums have been swinging one way and the other, and, you know, we've got to find kind of the good space, maybe a little more of a less extreme option in terms of new things. But I think it's definitely, there's, there's changes coming. I believe it. I'm raising three of them so yeah and I think there's three gen Z's I see it as positive and I think like companies better get with the program or they're gonna miss out and they're gonna have you know labor shortages and challenges which then cause compounding issues within their companies. S

Oh yeah, the world is not getting any easier.

No, but yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's again, I think there's, there's a lot of solutions that, that can work. And for me, again, if I can, I can just go back to the idea that a lot of it is related to culture and related to how you're operating as a business as a company as a team what the leadership is like and and really taking an approach that prioritizes people's well-being I think really that's just so important and it's it's the way of the future right everything every decision from the lens of well-being yes absolutely yeah like and it's just again it does go back to the productivity as well right where it's there's such a strong link there and in terms of like high performance and all that kind of stuff and yeah so I think it's it's for for leaders to acknowledge agree and then take the steps that need to be taken within their companies to make the changes so that they can see these things happen and they can have success and everybody wins right when I think when everybody is operating at their best everybody wins the company wins people win it's it's a win-win-win situation so winning all around exactly yeah for sure and the good news is we're still not we're not jaded yet um we don't do believe this is possible and even likely I think yeah I mean I have a realistic mindset but I do I am heartened by the people and the companies that are making the changes so I just sort of like wait for the others to catch up and I just focus on yeah because it can be it can be very depressing to think about all the problems, but I focus on the people that are doing the good work and hoping that's going to just trickle and people will see and notice and it will expand from there.

Definitely.

Thank you so much for coming to the show.

Of course. It's been a pleasure.

Yeah. Lady lady so great to chat with you really appreciate you you know coming on and talking about these deep issues and all this sort of great yeah we weirdos we like our deep issues we go deep

Yeah.

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble\

In today's episode, Tina Collins, is going to share her proven strategies for dealing with these workplace nightmares - the problematic high-performers who are potentially destroying morale and threatening the success of the entire organization.

Tina has spent over 15 years consulting with companies of all sizes, helping them to navigate the delicate balance of keeping their star performers while also protecting their company culture and team morale. She's seen it all - the charming, charismatic sales superstars who undermine and belittle their colleagues, the brilliant engineers who rule through fear and intimidation, the indispensable executives who treat everyone around them with disdain… 

Tina addresses and confronts businesses and individuals’s blind spots to help them achieve their ultimate potential, so if you're a leader grappling with a difficult superstar on your team, you won't want to miss this!

Tina will walk us through real-life case studies, offer tangible solutions, and give us a glimpse into the psychology of these challenging employees.

Website Url:

https://www.tinacollins.ca/

LinkedIn Profile:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/tinalcollins

Script:

And this is really one of the biggest reasons why quiet quitting happens. Good employees observe employees with bad behavior getting away with it.

 And that's what happens when you go into the scenario with empathy instead of judgment, right? Right. Right. And curiosity. Yeah.

 Because I'm willing to bet that if max performance and bad behavior is constantly overlooked, I'm willing to bet that they've already lost, if not physically, at least mentally, some of their employees.

 I'm the executive director of a nonprofit organization that's dedicated to making a difference in our community. Our mission is clear and our team is passionate, but we've hit a roadblock that's threatening to derail our progress. It's a situation I never anticipated, and it's keeping me up at night. The heart of our problem lies with our vice president, who is also our highest performer. This person has been instrumental in securing the majority of our funding. Their charisma, networking skills, and ability to close deals have been nothing short of miraculous for our NGO. However, there's a dark side.

 Lately, the VP has been exhibiting toxic behaviors that are causing rifts within our team. Their abrasive attitude, lack of empathy, and tendency to take credit for others' work have created an environment of fear and resentment. This toxicity is spreading, and I can see the impact it's having on our team's morale and productivity. The dilemma I'm facing is complex. On one hand, this individual is critical to our funding and by extension, our ability to operate and serve our community. On the other hand, their behavior is eroding the very foundation of our organization's culture and values.

To add to this, our board absolutely loves them. Yeah, that's complicated. I'm at a crossroads trying to balance the financial stability they bring with the negative impact they have on our team situations, forcing me to question how much we're willing to compromise our principles for the sake of financial security. 

Enter Tina Collins. Welcome, Tina.

Thank you so much.

 Tina is an award-winning seasoned leadership consultant, executive coach, and very proud to call you a friend as well. Tina explores blind spots that limit her clients' potential so they can accelerate personal and professional growth. I am so happy to have you on the show with me.

 I'm so glad that you've asked me and I'm so glad that you've given me this topic. This is a juicy, juicy one.

Oh my gosh, it sure is. I was like feeling overwhelmed.

Just as I was reading it, I was like sensing those emotions because we've, I mean, any of us who've been in leadership roles, if we've observed people, we've been in an organization, I think a lot of us have seen this as an issue.

And you said that you have some personal experience with this as well.

Yeah. I mean, this could have been read from my own personal notes. I have lived this recently with a client. So yeah, I'm really excited to get into this.

 Fantastic. Tina, I'd love for you to just tell everyone a little bit about yourself. What do you love about your work? And what's the impact that you want to make?

 What great questions. I spent about 26 years as a management consultant before the pandemic, traveling the world. And the pandemic gave me a chance to sit at home and not be away. And that pause led me to coaching. And in the one-year program that I took, I realized that coaching was always my favorite part of consulting that I had actually been coaching the whole time. I just thought it was consulting. And once I was able to split the difference and really appreciate how each serve my clients, I was able to really lean into coaching completely. So now, so now it's more like, you know, 85% of my time is coaching and 15 is consulting versus the other way around, which was all just like a mighty mess of like, just doing everything for sure. And what it is that I love most about coaching the impact. I would say that it's actually just no longer something that I do. It's just who I am. I, at this point, just feel like I'm the vehicle for whatever transformation my clients need.

 Beautiful.

 Thanks. Yeah. I feel like it's a true blessing. Honestly, it's not something I take for granted that people trust me to work through whatever's blocking there. You know, it's usually what's between the ears. It's, it's a true privilege.

 Yeah. And you're incredibly good at it. I feel like every single conversation I have with you, it's like, it's into a coaching conversation. It's not, you're not lying when you say that you are a coach, like literally that is who you are. You know, it's everything that you do, I think is you take that coach approach. And I think that's amazing.

Thank you. Thank you. And it's funny because I used to, I found that term really prickly before I used to think like, Ooh, yeah didn't I didn't it's not a weekend because but I don't know if you remember but you could just do like a weekend coaching program and be called a coach and that just uh really rubbed me the wrong way and so it took me a while to adopt the coach name. But now I'm all in, I'm all in. And I don't feel in any way like I ever need to explain to people what it is that I do. All my clients come through from referral, which I'm so grateful for. It's, it's a really magical place. 

 Yeah, the coach, becoming a coach is a transformational journey for sure. I'm still on that journey big time, but, um, I feel like you're, you know, you're kind of a master, uh, mentor, um, a friend. I think that, um, you're just an amazing person. So let's dig into this and see what kind of solutions we can drum up for.

Thank you.

 Well, we don't have a name here, but let's call them. I don't know. Let's give them a name. What's a good name for, for this executive director?

 Brenda.

 Brenda.

Brenda, the executive director. Perfect. Okay.

 I like to have a name when I'm working with a person.

 Yeah, me too. Me too.

 Yes, absolutely.

 Contextualize too.

Yes, absolutely.

 Contextualize it.

 Yeah, absolutely.

 And who's puppy? What's your puppy's name?

We have Piper Murphy here. They are my chief security officers. If they do cause a ruckus, I will let them know. But they're almost always here with me.

We love them.

They're great.

Okay, so we are going through, I guess we were thinking about going through this through Edward de Bono's six thinking hats, which you're probably familiar with. So just using the hats as the six lenses. So white hat, information and data, red hat, emotions and intuition, black hat, caution and risk, yellow hat, optimism and benefits, green hat, creativity and alternatives hat optimism and benefits, green hat creativity and alternatives, and blue hat process and control. So just looking at what, you know, when we're doing kind of a root cause analysis, or just looking to, you know, generate ideas on solutions, you know, thinking about the different lenses that we're looking through, and let's get started.

Hey, what are your first impressions before we dig right in?

 The first thing I read, or I thought of after reading the summary was an organization is only as strong as the worst behavior it's willing to accept.

Yeah.

And I have worked with organizations who have, so the individual in question who is like, you know, a super high performer, critical to the success of the organization, yet troubling behavior is often a secret cow. You know, these are individuals whose bad behavior is often overlooked in an organization because of what they bring to the organization. And while the benefits are tangible, you know, in this case, he brings in revenue, I mean, which is really important, especially if it's a fundraising, you know in this case he brings in revenue i mean which is really important especially if it's a fundraising you know i mean they can't do anything without money the long-term effects it has on the organization as a whole are immeasurable yeah have you seen a situation where um someone can you know we can address the behavior head- know, we can address the behavior head on and we can change the behavior of, of a person in this scenario.

Absolutely.

A lot of times, you know, like this is where I love working in the blind spots because a lot of times people's bad behavior, they don't even know that it's bad behavior. They just think it's part of their personality. And until someone brings it to their attention, it's not obvious to them. want to be part of a social group. They don't want to be ostracized. They don't want to hurt people. You know, so unless this person, what's his, what's, I'm calling it in my hand, but what's this person's name? I'm making some assumptions.

Yeah.

 Maybe we should find a general gender neutral name just so that it's, let's see, gender neutral. We'll call them mac okay okay I know females and males named mac yeah excellent excellent so um in mac situation unless mac has a personality disorder which they might have we don't know um i mean that's a completely different thing, but, but a lot of times it's just bringing that to light, you know, that like your performance is, is impacting the organization in this way. Is this how you want to be perceived? Is this how you want to show up?

Yeah.

Because honestly, sometimes it's just a tiny, tiny little shift that makes all the difference. Mm-hmm. It's just a tiny, tiny little shift that makes all the difference. And what I'm not seeing from this, and it's, you know, it's obviously impossible to know everything from this case. We think we have to make some assumptions here. I'm not seeing that Brenda has actually directly addressed this with Mac. Well, if this is something, if he's been behaving badly and been a top performer, I'm assuming that it's gone on for a while. And if the board loves him, that means that they have a relationship with him. It means like that he's been part of the team for a while.

 Yeah.

And so, you know, some of the responsibility is on the director, on Brenda's shoulders to say, you know, this is something you should have addressed the first time you saw it. I am noticing that they say lately the VP has been exhibiting toxic behaviors. So we don't know what the timeframe is really. But I presume that maybe this hasn't always been the case. So in terms of like information and data, what would you, if you're going in and you're trying to support this team as a consultant or as a coach, what would you suggest to Brenda?

Let's pretend you're Brenda's coach. How would you, you know, how would you suggest that they gather a business case? Or is that even necessary?

Well, I would want to know exactly what Brenda's intentions are. Is it to improve her team or is it to develop strategies so she can manage better?

 Because if he's a big personality, he may also be triggering some things in her. So if her goal is to create a better team, then I would recommend coming into the team and having a couple of sessions where we scenario map different values, different visions of the organization and allow everyone in the organization to have a voice. This might shed light on some of the prickly factors having a negative impact on everyone's performance. It also allows an organization to determine what is is a value you know because i mean every organization says we value trust we value openness we value all these things but when i say to them so what's the cost of not living up to the values and they there is no consequence then it's not a value so if mac if one of their values is um respect and mac is breaching that respect on a regular basis then we need to reevaluate whether respect is in fact a value because if it's, if it's tolerated only by Mac, that's a major problem, but erodes the entire workforce.

For sure. Now, do you, as a consultant, when you're wearing your consultant hat, do you recommend building these kinds of values into performance development, performance management, 360, leadership, assessments, those kinds of things?

When it comes to a team, I mean, individuals have their values, which change over time and context. But when I work with a team, I take sort of like an accordion approach, where if we're, if we're working together, there's going to be some one-on-one coaching, and there's going to be some team coaching. And the team coaching looks more like, well, at first we, we like develop scenarios, develop values. Like we create a vision of like, what's the best case scenario that we want here and what does it look like in the worst case scenario because sometimes they are living the worst case scenario so just identifying that you know oh geez this is where we're living um but this is what we'd like to and then and then hooking all of the work that we do on three, but I never do more than three values, because I want everyone to be able to remember them off the top of their head. And so often communication is always one of their values, their format or one-on-one coaching then I can say well you know where does this fall within you in the context of the organization you know because some people are great communicators and some are terrible and some don't even know where they fall and so if communication is a top value of an organization let's dig in so yeah we I always have something to like hook all of us, which is sort of like the anchor, if you will.

 Otherwise, everyone's like, you know, squirrels at a rave. I love that. I'm going to use that one, squirrels at a rave. So good. that i'm gonna use that one squirrels at a rave so good um do you do you suggest though like benchmarking this in any way so that you have the data or is it more you know you prefer an anecdotal conversational um way of you know gathering information on their present state or their emotional environment in the workplace?

 Well, we, we definitely talk a lot about stories. Like that's like, you know, I want people to be expressive and understand it in their context because everyone thinks differently. And so the more we talk about it, the more they can relate to a different version of the same story. But I think it's absolutely critical for organizations to measure the performance of whatever objective we're doing. So in this particular case, we would want to know, how are we going to measure Mac's performance?

 And it's not just having an impact on Mac and the ED, it's the entire team. Because I'm willing to bet that if Mac's performance and bad behavior is constantly overlooked, I'm willing to bet that they've already lost, if not physically, at least mentally, if not physically, at least mentally, some of their employees. So it's not like the, so the performance isn't just on Mac, it's the entire organization.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is really one of the biggest reasons why quiet quitting happens. Good employees observe bad employees or employees with bad behavior getting away with it. Right. And then they think to themselves, then what's, why should I bother doing great work?

 So you've been in this industry, you know, in different types of roles, you know, in wearing different hats, different types of government, non-governmental, private sector, you know, different kinds of organizations, big organizations, small organizations, Canada, globally. I'm curious whether you're seeing this scenario, is this like a tale as old as time? Or are you seeing this in terms of like, you know, we know that our culture is evolving. We're going through a bit of a cultural revolution right now. Is that an element?

 Are you seeing this more or is this, you know, this is just, this is just business. I'm going to say both. I'm going to say that it is a tale as old as time. I have seen this for the 28 years now that I've been doing this type of work, but I definitely think that there's a much more aware and aggressive desire to correct this behavior because like anything else, you know, we have psychologists who are now studying this stuff and they can like provide us with real metrics and value to the the outcomes the impact of this type of behavior you know like like like why quitting like i mean and or like um you know employee turnover rates you know we know that that's a very costly chunk of organization's budget.

 And so how do we attract, retain, and maintain some amazing teams? We have to invest in them. And investing them also means coaching people like Mac through these prickly conversations to adjust their behaviors.

Yeah. At what point does an executive or a manager's behavior become so like a lost cause? Like at what point would you suggest, you know, it, you know, it's worth finding solutions, like internal solutions so that we can transition them out. It's a really great question. I think every organization needs to figure out what that measure is. Like what, what, what's'm a very optimistic. I like the idea of like an amazing inclusive organization. I love psychological safety and empowerment. I love cognitive diversity. I love all of those things.

And I would, I would love to like empower organizations to onboard all of those things. But I do know that there are different industries, you know, like what would work in the Canadian forces. And they've been my client for a very long time is very different from let's say my client who does online learning. You know, the environment in which they work is completely different. And so where one can be very, not slow moving, but like more thoughtful in their decision-making may not be possible in another industry. And so every industry, every organization, I think needs to evaluate that those specific needs based on the impact that they're making. You know, if the impact is we're saving lives and this is time sensitive, how you get there is going to be very, very different from, let's say, perhaps a retail operation.

Yeah. from, let's say, perhaps a retail operation.

Yeah.

And it strikes me that, you know, obviously we know that not everyone is a great fit for every job. So it's kind of, I think it probably has to be some kind of compromise, you know, between, you know, people within a relationship, within an organization to say, I'm willing to change my behaviors so that I can, you know, fit in this organization better, or, you know, maybe it's, I can't, and this isn't the right fit for me. What would you think? What do you think about that?

 You know, a lot of that has to do with feedback, you know, and I'm willing to bet that Brenda, if this behavior has been going on for a while, I would ask Brenda, what's keeping her from giving Mac some really hard feedback?

 Yeah. You know, most people don't like giving negative feedback, but I really, I mean, I think it was Abby Wamba, who once said when she was playing at the national level soccer, or I think it was the Olympics, it dawned on her that if the coach stopped providing feedback to the players, those players were likely going to be benched and not playing. And so, you know, so I took that sports metaphor and I ran with it i thought to myself okay if the boss is not giving the employees feedback that means that the boss is no longer investing or seeing value in the employees and you know so so if that's true and brenda's not giving mac feedback either she doesn't see the value of Mac or she doesn't want to do the hard work, which is give negative feedback because she doesn't want to disappoint Mac or whatever.

But that's, that's love. You know, sometimes love looks like, Hey, listen, I value you so much. I want us to be successful. But this thing that you're doing is really having a negative impact on the rest of the team. So like, what can we do to change that, to shift it? Like, that's an important conversation. And so some of the responsibility very much lies on Brenda's shoulders in this case. It does. My best, the best leaders I ever had were the ones who told me what I had to hear, what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. Right. You know, definitely. And so I agree with that. And that's so hard. I remember, you know, being a new manager and, you know, how difficult that really is. Cause you, your instinct, I don't know if it's a feminine, I know it's not totally feminine thing, but being a mom, you know, a young mom at the time as well, like my instinct was to shelter them, you know, to protect them from, from harm, not to, from, you know, not, and then I realized I was actually harming them more when I realized that, you know, that changed and then I realized I was actually harming them more when I realized that, you know, that changed my perspective, but yeah, that's a, that's a hard trans transition to go through for a lot of people. It is. And it's one that once they realize that not providing the feedback is actually more harmful, they start opening themselves up to the process of learning how to give feedback. Yeah. I mean, it's just a conversation. It is a difficult conversation, but it's, it's just a conversation. And if you can learn the tools to having those prickly conversations, they become easier.

And it's like, it's like wanting biceps, you know, if you want biceps, you have to lift muscle or you have to lift weights. Well, the same goes for having difficult conversations. The more you practice them and the more you have them, the easier they get.

That's true.

Yeah.

 So what can be done in terms of building this into the systems of the organization? What do you recommend there?

 You know, so it makes it easier for us to engage in these conversations because it's built into part of the process. Well, I think part of it is just, you know, including it in an annual, if not semi-annual performance evaluation, just an opportunity for both parties to sit down and evaluate you know where are we based on what we agreed would happen and based on the organization's values you know like if we say communication is important how are we doing with that yeah i think that's like the easiest least costly initiative that any organization can do and I know it takes a lot of time and thoughtfulness and you know having to overcome all of the personal stuff but that's that's bold yeah then of course I would say hire a coach and probably a therapist and find a mentor have all three of them yeah because I mean you need objectivity you need people on the outside looking in to see what you don't see yeah yeah and to also like help you find the courage to do what you know you need to do but are having trouble stepping into that or finding the energy for it so yeah I found that's where coaching because you're committing you know when in a coaching session we know the very end of the coaching session usually you're making your commitments and it's through the process of making those commitments that you actually find that that and the energy, I think.

Yeah, accountability makes all the difference, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, I can remember one group that I worked with. Near the end of our engagement, I was known as the most expensive donut deliverer because I always brought treats, including donuts. And I would just show up to meetings and, and observe. Yeah. And the CEO was so grateful because he said, you don't have to say anything or do anything. We bring the best versions of ourselves to the table when you're here.

 Yeah. Because if we don't, we're going to get it in our coaching session, you know, and because, because of these observations and, and them trying on new behaviors in a group context, they were able to see something that they couldn't on their own that like, oh, when I just suspend my judgment and I ask more questions, the outcomes are different, more positive. You know, it's a pretty simple process and yet it often doesn't happen without an objective observer okay so our conclusion for brenda is is what we're not going to turf him yet no no we're not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. Right.

Yeah. We're going to stay curious and find out what's keeping her from giving him hard feedback. Absolutely. Yeah. And then we're going to investigate whether this is something she needs for her team and whether Mac is valued enough to get some feedback and coaching. Yeah. To improve his overall performance.

 Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really strange. I mean, I, I, I have to like interject. I have a client who once came to me and he's, and like, this is a very similar situation. He was definitely the sacred cow of his organization and this was a billion dollar business so like big big big stuff and his staff were giving me glimpses of what it is that that they wanted him to shift without actually calling it out. And I think they were terrified of what was happening. Okay. And so I get him into a coaching session and I just call him out. Like what is going on? What is this thing that everyone's talking about, but no one like, what's this elephant. And he says to me, strangely, the older I get, the harder time I have controlling my emotions. And I thought, well, that's interesting. What emotions specifically are they talking about?

 Because if it's tears and, and whatever, I'm sure that's not what the problem is. So it's got to be like an aggression, you know, behind what's going on. And sure enough, you know, behind what's going on. And sure enough, he tells me what's going on. And the outcome of this is that he made a doctor's appointment and found out that he was having a hormonal problem. Okay. Yeah. So this had nothing to do with psychology or mindset or performance metrics. It was a physical thing that was happening to him, but he, it was out of his control. Yeah. And so, but, but in the process of coaching, we were able, I mean, I did not diagnose him. We just opened this possibility that like, well, what if it's that?

 And he was like, yeah, well, I have felt a little weird and I, you know, and so I, so, you know, who could you ask for support that? And he was like, well, well, I have felt a little weird. And, you know, and so I said, you know, who could you ask for support that?

And he was like, well, I guess I should make a doctor's appointment. Great. That's a great idea. And so the next time he came in, he had had his doctor's appointment and had this diagnosis and was now on medication to regulate his hormones. And sure enough, everyone reported that it was like a flip of a switch happened and he was back to his normal self. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And that's what happens when you go into the scenario with empathy instead of judgment. Right. Right. Right. And curiosity. Yeah. Like what else might be happening here?

I think it's important to presume that people are not evil. This is, you know, I talk about this all the time. I call it positive intent. Enter every single interaction with positive intent. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt, even if you've had negative interactions with them. You have no idea what people are going through. And in fact, like this guy, he didn't know what he was going through and in fact like this guy he didn't know what he was going through for sure yeah i agree i wholeheartedly agree i think most people mean well i think that's true yeah i think that people want what's best and you know and it's it's complicated life is complicated it Life is complicated. It sure is. Yeah, it sure is. Yeah. Oh, well, on that note, is there anything exciting on the horizon for you, you wanted to chat about?

 I'm excited to be talking at the Chamber of Commerce's, you know carlton place they have a business set i'm very excited about that you need to do that too and my workshop is going to be on psychological safety which is something I'm very very passionate about i'm really excited about that that's perfect yeah okay good yeah and that's may 14th I believe for anyone who is in the Carleton Place and or Ottawa region.

Right. Mm hmm. Yes. Wonderful. Yeah. What about you?

Oh, gosh. Well, we are just about to launch the Train to Help project, train to help dot com. e-learning it's part e-learning platform part marketing platform for small businesses brick and mortar businesses so that they can improve the inclusion and accessibility of their businesses through the power of customer service so that is important that's it that's it that's all you've got going on oh my god well I'd say you know if i we had a day no i'm just kidding you're extraordinary oh my gosh that's amazing yeah that's pretty cool that's gonna that's gonna make such a huge difference in the lives of so many I feel good about this I think it is going to get it back

Tina yes I just love being in your in your uh solar system in your whatever you call it

yeah ditto ditto.

 You've got such a powerful aura. You do. I don't know how else to describe it.

We are definitely members of the mutual admiration society.

That is for sure.

Yes. 

Thank you so much for this. This was really fun. Y

eah, for sure. It was awesome.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful wonderful and don't stay out of trouble

From the challenges faced to the victories celebrated, your host Erin Patchell, shares valuable insights on the good, the bad, and the ugly of her entrepreneurial journey so far. Stay tuned to find out what it takes to be an entrepreneur in today's world, and how to celebrate the small milestones on the path to success!

Stay in Touch:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell

For more on Erin, her services, and her entrepreneurial journey:

https://trainedtohelp.com/

https://www.positivist.ca/

Script:

We're helping businesses become more inclusive and prove that and demonstrate that every single day. So it's not just a checkbox. It's actually real.

Welcome back to Weirdos in the Workplace workplace the podcast where we celebrate authenticity transparency passion and purpose as entrepreneurs and business leaders i'm your host erin patchell and today we're diving into the exciting milestones for the positivist group which is my company and our software software platform we're developing called cludi which is my company, and our software platform we're developing called Cludee, which is formerly known as the Train to Help project. And the reason why I'm sharing all of this, I'm a huge believer in transparency. And I think it's really important, especially for new entrepreneurs to hear from other entrepreneurs along their journey. And I'd love to share a little bit about the good, the bad and the ugly as we go along in this journey. And I'd love to share a little bit about the good, the bad and the ugly as we go along in this journey. And it hasn't been easy.

So I hope that comes across when I'm chatting. It is not an easy process. It is a constant, constant learning as you go and, you know, seeking and sensing into the environment and asking a lot of questions and asking yourself a lot of questions. So without further ado, today we're going to talk about where we are now, what it's been like to pilot the learner side of our platform with 40 live participants, and what is next on the horizon. And yes, I said pilot with live participants. And for those of you who have done this before, you may know how completely insane that really is. So why did we create Cludee in the first place, just to take a step back?

Our mission at Positivist Group has always been to make it profitable for businesses to do the right thing. It's a tough economy out there and we need to accept as business owners, every possible strategic advantage that we have. And one of those strategic advantages is to create business models that are built around and clearly demonstrate business as a force for good. And I know I, my friends will probably laugh because I always say this, but I joke around a lot about like world domination for good.

You'll probably hear those words come out of my mouth almost every single day, world domination for good, but it's not really a joke. It's our philosophy. world domination for good, but it's not really a joke. It's our philosophy. So if you take two customers who want to purchase a good or service, let's pretend you're going to buy a fridge and you give them two options. So two fridges, two different companies, identical variables, the quality of both fridges is the same or good. The warranty is the same. The investment cost is about the same. They're both convenient to purchase from. The service is accessible. The atmosphere of the business is nice. But the only factor that changes between these two fridges at these two different businesses is that 50% of the profit that they get from one fridge and one of the businesses is going to the food bank, let's say. Meanwhile, 100% of the profit from the other fridge and the other business is going into their shareholders' pockets. So I think it's pretty obvious that unless you're one of those shareholders, the decision's kind of a no-brainer.

Almost every time when I explain this to people, they're like, obviously I'm going to pick, I'm going to buy the fridge where 50% of the profit's going to a charity. Business as a force for good makes sense. Business is a force for good makes sense. So if you've heard me talk about this in the past, you know, also, probably that I have physical and neurodevelopmental disabilities, and I'm fairly public about them. I have other disabilities as well that are suspected, but not officially diagnosed. So I don't really talk about those. But even before I recognized that I had disabilities, I was kind of treated like an outcast. And I don't know, it was kind of chicken and egg. I don't blame anyone. I think it was, I didn't know how to be included just as much as people didn't know how to include me. But I was treated like an outcast and it took me many years to understand how I belong and where I fit in and how to be a social person. So something I do care about deeply and something the team, a positivist group cares about deeply as well, because we all have lived experience with this, is disability inclusion.

 I also strongly believe that people need people. And I think that's a fact. People who are excluded socially probably need people even more than everyone else. People with disabilities also generally just want what everyone else does and what everyone else takes for granted. Like just to go for coffee with a friend, to go to the store, to buy a gift for a loved one, to socialize without causing a disturbance or to be made to feel welcome and not made to feel like a burden. We know that small businesses particularly struggle with accessibility, even to the level of basic compliance, which is frankly a pretty low bar. With how competitive it is in the market right now for businesses, particularly retail business and brick and mortar business, it's even more important for people with disabilities to feel included and respected in every single customer interaction. For one, they make up over 27% of the Canadian population over the age of 15, if you can believe that. And that's a true fact from Statistics Canada.

People with disabilities also spend $55 billion every single year. And that number is going to be increasing. Why? Because we are making it easier and easier for people with disabilities to work. People with disabilities have disposable income. They are consumers and they want to spend their money. They want to live like everyone else, you know? So let's let them, let's help them and give them a great experience, you know? And that's exactly what Cluedy is designed to do. When you become a Cluedy, you know, we're helping businesses become more inclusive and prove that and demonstrate that every single day. So it's not just a checkbox. It's actually real. We're providing transparency around that. We're helping businesses get the training and resources they need to provide an exceptional customer experience while also making it easier for people with disabilities to navigate the world with more confidence. So we're about four and a half months into the actual development of this platform, which is like, sounds like nothing. We're moving extremely quickly. And the last five months have felt like a whirlwind.

We surveyed first like back several months ago. I think it was just about the time I did episode 11. So episode 11, I also talked about this project as well and where we were at that point. Around episode 11, we were surveying customers with disabilities. We surveyed over 50 customers with disabilities and we're still talking to people constantly. This is a never ending learning. But at this time, we've surveyed 50 customers with intersectional disabilities to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly of their customer service experiences when they go and finally venture out to the world. We interviewed a couple of dozen business owners as well to understand their thoughts around accessibility and whether they were AODA compliant and they weren't. In fact, 97% didn't even know they were supposed to be. These are small businesses, by the way. Larger businesses over 20 employees, there are huge fines if they're not compliant. But the smaller businesses under 20 employees, while there are still fines, they kind of fall through the cracks because it's not really monitored as much. So in the past five months, we also completed the Invest Ottawa Ignition Program. And I went on stage and we did our pitch.

Every single one of the program participants did a pitch. And that was really fun pitch competition. Now we're taking advantage of the Flex program, support for business startups. We participated as a vendor in the Adaptive Living Expo. And it was extremely validating to talk to so many people with disabilities about this new venture, Cluedy. And they had huge enthusiasm for what we're doing. So that is really heartening. We attended the Collision Conference, which is North America's largest tech conference, talked to numerous founders and funders, understanding, you know, getting understanding of the lay of the land, how does this work, as we're becoming a technology startup, becoming a CEO of a technology company, there is a lot to learn. And we took away so many insights and growth opportunities from that. And just this Wednesday, we finally launched our pilot phase of Cluedy with almost 50 participants. The goal was to test the learner side of the platform in a real world setting because this platform includes the AODA compliance training that we're calling it Disability Inclusive Customer Service. So that was the platform, the side of the platform that we were testing.

And we wanted to see how our training would perform, how users would interact with the content, and most importantly, whether Cluedi could truly make a difference in enhancing accessibility and inclusion. So what does the pilot look like? Like I said before, the largest pilot, I've run many pilots in my life so far. This is by far the largest. Normally I have up know 12 to 15 participants um we had over 40 participants almost 50 participants employees business owners from retail stores restaurants and service-oriented businesses uh we decided to do it live so they were all doing and testing the platform together, providing feedback in numerous ways. We actually basically updated the platform. We had a little button so that any time throughout the entire journey on the platform, as they were exploring through the platform, they were able to provide feedback at any stage. And we knew exactly where that was within the platform. They also were able to write their feedback on a card. And then we held table conversations as well with a facilitator. So we gathered even more feedback that way. These people are on the front lines of customer service and they interact with the public every single day.

So getting their feedback was really critical. The pilot did involve that comprehensive training program that I mentioned, covered everything from AODA compliance to practical strategies for engaging with customers that have disabilities. The training was totally mobile based, which is the reason why it's mobile based, at least right now. And that's going to be the primary modality going forward is because people in those brick and mortar businesses don't often have access to computers. Although we are creating different versions so that, you know, there's different contexts that can be used. And not everybody has a phone, we learned. In fact, quite a few people said that they have quite a few employees who don't have phones, which means that they probably won't actually have access to a computer either. So we're going to need some kind of analog method of doing the training as well to make sure that we're including everyone. So that was definitely something we learned. And I honestly, I think I was a little bit naive because I had absolutely no idea there were so many people that still didn't have phones these days. So that's a learning. Yeah. So, but busy employees need convenience factor. After the, it had been something on our minds, but we definitely decided to do an audio only version as well. And we think that will be very popular, uh, especially for employees who are, you know, rushing around, they can pop the audio version in and, uh, do, do some training in between, you know, or when, when they've got a free moment. Um, but the feedback we received overall was incredibly insightful. So many people reported that the content was engaging and informative. They had new perspectives on how to approach customer service.

A lot of people mentioned how to communicate with people with disabilities. That was extremely insightful, that module that we did. So, you know, all in all, some really amazing feedback, positive and constructive. People really liked the real life scenarios as well. We took actual real life scenarios from real people with disabilities that they encountered in customer service environments and, you know, kind of like a what not to do. And I think that was very enlightening because there's quite a few scenarios like not moving a person's wheelchair. That isn't always necessarily common sense, you know. It doesn't, it's not instinctive. We don't understand it until we've learned it. So we also discovered some major areas for improvement. A couple I mentioned already. Some people wanted more interactive elements and case studies specific to their industries. So anyways, all of this feedback is extremely valuable. The good news was that the actual technology itself, everyone found to be really easy. So that's good news. The actual software was really easy to access, even for some of the older adults in the audience felt that it was super easy and straightforward. So that was good news. So we've already had several stories about employees who felt more confident and prepared to serve customers with disabilities once they've completed the training.

 I followed up with a few people already, and they have really great things to say. So this is only the beginning, and they're going to be getting even more and more out of this platform as we continue forward. And I'm really excited to see how this continues and how the trajectory grows and how they're growing as people through the process. But of course, it was not without its challenges. We definitely had a few glitches, mainly related to the Wi-Fi in the building, which we knew was going to be a problem. And we had created some, we had managed that as best as we could, but we still had some challenges around the wifi. But, you know, everyone typically understood and we were able to manage it without any issues. But I would say if you're, if you're listening to this, cause you want to do a live pilot yourself, I would definitely find somewhere that has a very strong wifi connection or limit the number of people in the pilot and make it a bit of a smaller pilot. Because there was a bit of an overload despite the fact that we had, like I said, done everything we possibly could to mitigate the fact that the Wi-Fi wasn't as strong as it probably should have been.

 So, okay. What is next for Cludee?

So we are in the process of refining the platform based on the feedback of the pilot participants. We are looking for at financing options now in order to fund the next four to six months of the project. I'm really hoping to bring there's one person, especially who's currently working as a contractor. And I'm really hoping to bring them on as a full time employee because they're extremely valuable. And they're just such a great fit for this project. But we'll see how it goes. Hopefully in the next update, the next, you know, I'm doing every 10 weeks, I'm going to provide an update on the Cludee platform. So hopefully the next update, I can say like, hooray, we've secured some financing, you know, and we're full steam ahead. So, but because we don't have the financing or funding right now, so we're, you know, either a loan or equity funding from investors, we are planning on getting this to market ASAP. So that's really our focus right now is creating the administrative side of the platform so that people can actually go on the website and purchase this product. It'll be the training just to start with adding features. We have so many amazing features that we're going to be adding over the next six months that we're really excited about.

But AODA training is really important and a lot of businesses are not currently compliant. So we figure there's a market for that even without the rest of the platform completed. So that is how we're handling, you know, needing to get to market really quickly is really like what is the increment that is valuable that people will be willing to pay for. And that's what we're starting with, you know, and if anyone out there is also bootstrapping a company, you know, that might be a good way to think about things. So, but yeah, we're, we're also in the meantime, we're enhancing the content, we're adapting it to different provincial legislation across Canada. We do intend on moving to the United States as well, but we're going to launch across Canada first. We're improving the user interface just a little bit, a few little tweaks, and then preparing for a broader live launch across Canada, hopefully in October.

Our next steps also include expanding the pilot to more businesses. And we're interested in bringing on another pilot, a separate pilot for people who have lived experience with disabilities. And that will be a paid pilot just to make sure that the content is as inclusive and effective as possible. And we're also intending on adding on new modules as well. So this is the Disability Inclusive Customer Service course and then micro learning modules. We'll be adding at least one a month as a value add for all of the members, for all of our Cludees out there, our Cludee businesses. We're also adding new features like the ability for businesses to track their accessibility improvements over time and receive personalized recommendations for further enhancements, as well as the Cluedy grant, which is our own grant to enhance accessibility in small businesses. And we are funding that from the profit of the company. So as a social enterprise, I think I've mentioned before, Cludee is a social enterprise, which means that half of our profit will be going towards a grant for small businesses.

So in closing, I want to thank our pilot participants for their enthusiasm, honesty, and commitment to make Cludee a success. This is just the beginning. I keep saying that, but really it is. It is like, you know, getting to market is literally the beginning. So we're even like pre, we're still pre-revenue. We're really, really at the beginning. But I'm kind of excited for you guys to come along this journey with us. And by the time we have our last episode, at the end of January 2025, we should be getting some traction, you know, so that would be the that's the plan. But we're super thrilled to have such passionate businesses and individuals becoming Cludees. And we're excited about the future of Cludee and the impact that it will make in making our world more accessible and inclusive.

So stay tuned for more updates. And as always, we welcome your feedback. If you're interested in joining the Cludee community or learning more about how we can help your business or possibly partner with us in other ways, visit our website or reach out directly to me at erin at positivist.ca, E-R-I-N at P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T dot C-A. And I'm on LinkedIn pretty frequently. So feel free to ping me on LinkedIn. That would be linkedin.com slash I N slash Erin E R I N dash patchell P A T C H E L L.

Thanks for listening until, until next time, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

In today's episode, we're joined by Jen Broad and Laura Lobay, who work on the employment team for the charitable organization LiveWorkPlay. Founded in 1995, LiveWorkPlay's mission is to foster an environment where individuals with disabilities and autism can live, work and play as valued citizens.

As employment inclusion specialists, Jen and Laura have extensive experience helping employers and managers create more accessible, equitable and supportive work communities. They'll share their insights on the key elements of building an inclusive organizational culture, providing reasonable accommodations, and empowering employees through disability awareness training and allyship.Tune in to learn practical tips and best practices that organizations can adopt to make their workplaces truly inclusive, where everyone can thrive.

Whether you're a business leader, HR professional or simply interested in promoting greater inclusion, this episode is sure to provide valuable takeaways.Join us as we explore the transformative power of workplace inclusion with the experts from LiveWorkPlay - Jen Broad and Laura Lobay.

Website URL: https://liveworkplay.ca/

LinkedIn Profiles:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jen-broad-39b4b5b6

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laura-lobay-2a43531a3

[Script]

 How to really take those thoughts, those intentions, and make them more actionable and really see results within their organization.

Can you explain to me what's going on? What's your process? Why is this happening? And then maybe there's something going on within the process for that person that then you can adjust and then help make things better.

 And, you know, nine times out of 10, you're not going to get an individual who maybe feels comfortable saying that in that situation. And if you do have a candidate that feels comfortable, you as a manager, are you able to then implement that accommodation?

Welcome to the show, Jennifer. Sorry, I'll try that again. Welcome to the show, Jennifer and Laura.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Inclusive Tech, a fictional company with a real problem, is forward-thinking and prides itself on its core value of inclusion. The company has made concerted efforts to create a diverse workforce with a particular focus on hiring team members with disabilities. However, despite their best intentions, Inclusive Tech has encountered challenges in ensuring that all employees, especially those with disabilities, can thrive in the workplace, Joshua, the HR director, noticed an increasing number of concerns being raised by employees with disabilities regarding accessibility and accommodation. They've expressed that while the company's policies are inclusive on paper, the practical implementation often falls short. Some employees feel their specific needs are not fully understood or met, leading to a sense of isolation and hindered performance. Joshua is determined to address these issues, and he's decided to engage the team who's helped him recruit these team members with disabilities.

Laura Lobey and Jen Broad work on the employment team for a charitable organization, Live Work Play. Live Work Play was established in 1995. Their mission is to help the community welcome and include individuals with intellectual disabilities and autistic persons to live, work, and play as valued citizens. Laura and Jen are part of the team of inclusion specialists who work with employers in the private sector, everything from small family businesses to major corporations. They help bring job seekers and employers together and support owners and managers to build their own capacity for workplace inclusion.

 Welcome to the show.

 Thanks for having us.

So great to be here.

Okay, well, I'd love to just take a very quick minute before we dive into our case study. Now, I would like to ask you guys why you love your jobs.

Oh, do you have enough time for that on the podcast? Inclusivity is something that I've always been really passionate about. And I love customer service as well. And so for me, in my role, I get to incorporate those two things on an everyday basis. I also love sort of like problem solving and and helping people sort of feel seen and valued. And so for me, this is just, I find it really fun and engaging and really impactful at the end of the day.

Awesome. Laura, how about you?

Yeah, sort of very similar to Jen. I just really, I love working with managers. I love working in the community and really helping to build that capacity within the community. As someone who has struggled with employment in the past and having, you know, finding that successful path, I love now being able to work with employers and really help them to build that capacity and build a more inclusive environment and just help everyone to be more successful.

That's amazing. And like such valuable work too. So I'm curious, what, what are your first impressions of this case study that we presented?

So I think it's pretty typical with a lot of organizations really recognizing that there are some changes or, you know, they've done a really good job thoughts, those intentions, and make them more actionable and really see results within their organization. And so this is not something that you haven't seen before, probably. No, this is definitely a pretty, pretty realistic kind of thing that we would be working with in our everyday, our everyday work for sure.

Awesome. And so if this was one of your clients, you know, how would you respond to help them start to identify the root cause of these issues?

Yeah, I think step number one is always for businesses and organizations to realize, okay, something needs to happen here, we need to, we need to approach this a bit differently. And I think there's a lot of good intention here. And a lot of companies really focus on trying to find ways to make things more fair in their organization. And for a lot of organizations, and for a long time, fair meant equal. And that's really not the case. So we really need to shift from looking at things from an, you know, from an equal perspective into a more equitable approach and perspective.

 And for our listeners, some people may be trying to visualize what that means. So I'll just try and paint a picture in your mind of when I'm when I'm referring equal and equitable, what that actually means. So we use this example a lot in our workplace where let's say you have four different individuals and they've got varying needs, varying abilities. Let's say maybe one is a toddler and one is, you know, varying heights and weights and sizes. And then you have someone who's got some mobility barriers, and you give them all the exact same bicycle, and you say get from point A to point B. And everyone is going to have a lot of challenges with that, because the bike is not suited for the needs. It's an equal platform for everybody. So that's what we mean when we're talking about equal opportunity. But then when we're talking about equitable opportunities or equitable approaches to things, we're taking a look at the individual and what skill sets they have, and then what supports or practices we need to put in place to help them get from point A to point B. So then you hand these individuals bicycles that have been tailor-made to allow them to give you that output or performance. And so when businesses are looking at their practices, their policies, they really need to start to shift to look at things in an equitable lens. And you know what that may look like from a business perspective is, you know, this is a tech company. And so maybe everything is online. But you may realize that while it's a tech company, there may need to be some accommodations put in place for that. So seeing where we can maybe start to put in some, you know, different application processes or hiring processes.

The interview category is one that I really love to sort of blow up for people and really have them view it with a different lens. Because we're used to a very traditional interview where, you know, you and I are sitting at a table and there's papers and managers who are hiring are typically frantically writing down answers. And, but maybe that person who's really good in the tech world has really struggles with that, you know, interpersonal communication or even being able to formulate their thoughts on the spot. So, you know, maybe, maybe you can offer different approaches to the interview system. Maybe it's, you know, you're providing the candidate. I can provide you with questions ahead of time. You can choose your platform of interview. It can be, you know, a walk and talk, but, you know, having some, some different approaches for people.

 And, you know, the only sort of cautionary tale with that is, you need to make sure that you are providing those opportunities for accommodations before you get to the interview. Because so many times, again, and this is that, you know, it's on paper, but is it in practice when a manager sits down and the first question is, do you require an accommodation for this interview? And, you know, nine times out of 10, you're not going to get an individual who maybe feels comfortable saying that in that situation. And if you do have a candidate that feels comfortable, you as a manager, are you able to then implement that accommodation? And that really shows a lot about the organization and goes along to building the trust. So I think the biggest way to get to the root of the problems is really starting to shift from equal to equitable when you're looking at your practices.

Okay. Is that something that employers you work with typically come to you with an understanding of? Or is that something you often have to educate them on?

 I think it's something that we often have to sort of go through a bit of an exercise as well, because again, there's just been this real narrative that equal is fair. And so it's really trying to get through that and have people see how a more tailored person-centered approach is really going to help with their practices.

That makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious about how would you know if there's a challenge?

You know, once you've placed someone in a role, how do you deliver, how do you build a continuous improvement process or support your client in building that like feedback mechanism? So you know if things are working or if things need to be adopted. So I think really just, you know, taking that person-centered approach and really working with the person. One thing I often recommend to managers is having regular check-ins with your employees that aren't about necessarily giving feedback, you know, to the person. Let them give feedback to you, you know, have a dialogue, like just a real dialogue about what's going on in work, what's working for you, how are things going? What's not working? What can we improve on? How can we change or streamline our processes to have this fit better for you and just have like an ongoing conversation with the person? I think that's really a helpful way to sort of approach things and to identify challenges sort of before they happen, even, you know, like if you're having these ongoing conversations and you're just sort of regularly checking in and, you know, how are things going as things come up, you're building trust with the employee. And then the employee is going to be able to be like, hey, you know, maybe this isn't working, but can we do this a little bit differently? And bringing them into the conversation like that so they have a lot of agency and how to do things in their job as well, I think is super important.

Okay, cool. For a company like Inclusive Tech, would you recommend something like an accessibility audit? And if yes like what are the best practices around that?

 Yeah I think anytime businesses can do a deep dive into that is always going to be beneficial and the important thing to remember is it needs to be a collaborative approach so we have we often reference the saying with not for. So making sure that you are including the employees along the journey with you. Because, you know, within your organization, you may have someone that has already disclosed that there's accommodations that are needed. And you know about that one. And so you're going to be able to really easily pinpoint, you know, where the deficits are there that you'll need to make accommodations for. But you're also going to have individuals where maybe they have episodic disabilities that come up, you know, once a week, once every couple of months that you don't know about. And you're absolutely going to have people who have disabilities who have not disclosed that in the workplace. So inviting a broad range of your employees to participate this and sit around the table because accessibility really looks different for everybody. So having that broad perspective is going to be super important. And then you can start to do a deep dive, you know, into, you know, the very physical surroundings of your work, but then you look at to do a deep dive, you know, into, you know, the very physical surroundings of your work. But then you look at your other platforms, like your website, you know, how accessible is it, your hiring practices, your training practices, your onboarding and orientation.

We see a lot of very similar platforms in that. And in that process, you know, it's kind of a one-stop shop, but is that working for everybody? So really looking into that.

Another area that organizations don't always think about in this sort of thing is, you know, what do outside of workplace gatherings look like? So are you going out for dinner? Are you doing a team building somewhere? So taking a look at that to making sure that, you know, where you're going as a company are still accessible. So taking a look at that and making sure. And I think approaching with curiosity and excitement around this because it should be a really exciting thing for businesses to sit down and say, I want to create a more inclusive environment. But there can be this, you know, negative connotation of a burden, or I have to do this, where, you know, one, businesses should just want to do it, because it is the right thing to do. But if we're trying to encourage businesses, there's also a strong business case for it, so customers seek out employers where there's representation present, where they really sort of walk the walk. And employees will stay around for longer in organizations and that reduces training costs and turnovers. So there's a huge amount of benefits to sort of doing a deep dive like this with your organization. But how you approach it is really going to tell your employees your stake in it.  So if you approach it with curiosity, excitement, include them in on the journey, then that's when you really start to have inclusivity be woven into the fabric of your culture and your organization, as opposed to, you know, I'm ticking a box, I'm doing an accessibility audit, because it's what I'm supposed to be doing. But when you start to really integrate that, and how you approach it is when you start to really see the long lasting changes within your organization.

I'm just thinking, like, as you were talking, it came to mind that like, you know, there's lots of folks who are either leaders or owners of small businesses who are listening to this podcast. 

And, you know, I, when I think accessibility audit, and some of the things that you mentioned, I'm thinking like, to Ching, you know, like, this is going to be expensive. How, you know, how can we make this as financially accessible as possible for people to start the process and continue the process? Yeah, I absolutely see how that could be a bit daunting. As a sort of statistic, an accommodation within the workplace, ballpark around $500. And that's sort of across the board. But you know, taking time to talk to your individuals and doesn't cost anything. And a lot of these changes could just be attitudinal changes to the workplace. They could be shifting work schedules. They could be changing a light bulb to make it a little more sort of like dimmer and not as bright or impacts, you know, headaches. So a lot of these things can be super small changes that are really going to make a big impact. And again, it's, you know, you're not going to be able to make all these changes overnight. So recognizing that, recognizing that mistakes are going to happen along the way, and that's part of the journey and part of the learning process. But I think if your employees see that there's a commitment to these changes, they can help facilitate these as well. So there may be ones that cost more. Absolutely. That is part of the equation. But a lot of these things can be sort of attitudinal approaches to accommodations in the workplace. Awesome.

So I guess for the folks out there, you do not have to hire a consultant. You can just ask questions. Are there any specific questions that you could recommend, you know, like as a starting point?

 I think having people sort of, you know, what would your ideal workplace look like? What would your ideal training platform look like? If you could change, you know, one thing about your office or your setup, what would it be? They don't have to be super groundbreaking questions. And I think Laura touched on this a lot of, a lot of it is the trust building with your employee, encouraging them because it's not up to you necessarily to come up with all of these ideas. And that's the other thing, if you have employee engagement, come up with all of these ideas. And that's the other thing, if you have employee engagement, we always try and make sure that the individuals that they work with are their own best advocate of the accommodations that they need. And so utilizing their skill set along the process can really help. But those really just kind of prodding questions about what would make your workplace overall better. Even like, has there ever been a situation that, you know, has really been uncomfortable for you or has really been a struggle or a challenge in your workplace? All those conversations can really lead to some great discussions around accessibility.

Right.

So I feel like a lot of employers, performance management is always a tough topic for employers. Everyone hates it already, you know, let alone when you're, you're, you know, as the business owner, you do need a level of performance from your team and you want to be sensitive, right? Especially to people who have certain types of disabilities. What are your recommendations around that?

So I think really taking a collaborative approach with your employees, if you're doing these regular check-ins, like we mentioned earlier, building that trust and really having an ongoing conversation, then when things come up or you need to address issues with performance management, then it makes it a little bit easier, because you've built that relationship. And you've sort of built that trust with the person.

 I think, yeah, just keeping it as an ongoing conversation, asking questions with people and approaching things with curiosity as well, like Jen said earlier, you know, what you were seeing this happen, can you explain to me what's going on? What's your process? Why is this happening? And then maybe there's something going on within the process for that person that then you can adjust and then help make things better. But everyone has sort of, you know, different ways to get places, you know, we have different routes, but we all have different output capacities as well. So you just sort of looking at that, really approaching things with curiosity and with an open mindset and building that trust with your employee, I think is really important. But also at the end of the day, everyone is accountable for what their goals are as well. So holding that accountability is also really important.

But I think it's the thing is, is how do you get there and how can you adjust how you get there and then still holding someone accountable for the end result is really what the key is here that you thought was like the linchpin or the most, you know, important behavior to remember to demonstrate in the workplace for this specific topic? What would that be? I'm curious.

I think really, it's about approaching things with curiosity. You know, like we all come into a situation where we're like, oh, we're seeing this happen with this employee. And you know, this is awful. And we have sort of like a direction we're trying to go and I think just trying to to let that go and really being curious about what's happening can be challenging at times absolutely to sort of have that mindset but really approaching a situation with you know curiosity why is this happening this way what can I learn from it as a manager as well to help support my employee I think that's probably me, that's probably the advice I give the most is, you know, let's ask some questions. Let's be curious about this situation and see what we can learn and how we can make it better.

I love that, like not making assumptions, basically.

 Absolutely, yeah.

What about you, Jen? Is it a different response?

 I don't know that. No, it's the curiosity piece is huge for me. And it being sort of a collaborative approach as well is huge. And just, yeah, just knowing that everyone is usually doing the best with with where they're at at and just having some empathy and compassion around it and trying to figure out, you know, how can we get them to where we want to be?

 I think the biggest thing that we're all learning in life is that it ebbs and flows and sometimes everything's fine and we don't need that additional support or or um you know guidance and and then something happens and we get a bit derailed and and we do need that so um really seeing the person as a as a as an individual and and and like laura said approaching with curiosity so you can you can find out and see how you can best support.

Fantastic. One last question. So if someone, you know, like Inclusive Tech was looking to develop a more inclusive workplace, and they really wanted to have representation and make sure they had a strong pipeline of folks that had disabilities and encourage them and grow them, what are the types of resources that you would recommend to make sure that you're supporting the career advancement and professional development of, you know, their team members?

Yeah, I think, I mean, there's not a one-size-fits-all for this, and it's very, it's going to be very sort of person centered in terms of like the resources that you're, that you're bringing aboard. But I think making sure that, again, that focus on equitable approaches to things you can, it's great to have sort of categories like a mentorship program, absolutely. And, you know, maybe facilitated groups where people can drop in for some more complex, you know, issues within the work like HR or tech, for example. You know, having those spots where people can go and facilitate can be really helpful. But I also think, you know, outsourcing in your community as well. So there's a lot of great employment support programs out there that can help you navigate these changes. A lot of them are government funded as well. So it's no charge. And so if you're looking to help sort of navigate your path and figure out ways to really create an inclusive environment and to bring your team into the fold.

 There's lots of great resources out there. And, you know, just really embracing the notion of, you know, what an amazing workplace it could be if we actually got rid of the word accommodation. And we just sort of approach the workspace as like, you know, how do I, how do I set my employees up for success? And what do they need to be successful? And that's not disability specific. And inclusion is not disability specific. So I think, you know, really making sure that if you're targeting inclusivity, it's going to happen organically and authentically. You're not going to need to sort of, that's where you really get away from the boxes being checked or having it really be on paper, but really making a concerted effort of, you know, what can I do to set my team up for success? And how can I create an environment that will really enable them to do that? Oh, I love that so much. Making it the rule, not the exception.

Exactly. Yeah, for sure. I completely agree with that. Any final thoughts? Actually, I have a final thought. How in the world do people get a hold of you guys so they can be supported through this process from, you know, from the recruitment phase all the way through?

 Oh, well, you can find us online at liveworkplay.ca. People are also welcome to reach out directly to Jen or I. Our contact information is all on that website. Our services are government funded. So, you know, there's no cost to employers or employees seeking support from us. And we're happy to help out. I mean, we also do offer an inclusion workshop through our organization for employers to help them build their capacity in terms of inclusion, which we love facilitating those.

They're really great. 

Yeah, I think, yeah, search us up online and find us. We're always excited to connect with more people in the community. I think too, if there are organizations out there that are interested in finding out a little bit more, or just like leaning into that space a little bit, we also can organize some employment networking opportunities. So these are opportunities where we facilitate a conversation between a job seeker and an employer. There's no sort of like pressure that there's a job coming out of this. It's just a way for employees and employers to sort of have a conversation about like, what's it like to work here. You know, what are the hours like? What's the culture like? And giving because sometimes it can be challenging for people to, you know, oh, I think I want to do this. But you know, what does that job actually entail? We find out all the time that jobs are so much different than what is sort of said on a job description. So having them have the ability to go into that environment, ask the manager questions, see the sights, the smells, the sounds, all of that can have a huge impact on their employment journey. So that's another really great way for managers to sort of get connected with us with like no pressure to hire, just some great, you know, community connecting and building going on yeah that's actually a problem almost everywhere it's it's tough to really understand what skills you need for a particular job for whatever reason like what that job actually looks like um I hear that all the time as well

so um oh well it has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you both.

Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah. And hopefully we'll maybe partner together in the future.

Yeah, that would be so great.

Awesome. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful wonderful and don't stay out of trouble

Welcome to our guest, JP MIchel.

JP Michel is the creator of the Challenge mindset and the Challenge Cards, which have been used by more than 70,000 students around the world.

His past consultancy work with leaders led to the creation of SparkPath, an innovative career exploration company spotlighted on the Forbes, TEDx, CBC and BBC. Recognized as the 2022 Outstanding Career Leader by the Career Professionals of Canada, JP's holds a degree in psychology from the University of Ottawa and a master's degree in industrial-organizational psychology from the University of Manchester.

Website URL: mysparkpath.com

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanphilippemichel/

Pick up his book, The World Needs You: https://a.co/d/csR7VI8

If you're a business owner and a business leader, and you're listening to this right now, I want to know what you want to hear. Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and welcome to Season 2. For those of us who are continuing this journey from season one, thank you. If you're brand new here, welcome. My name is Erin Patchell. I am the founder of a company called Positivist Group, which is a management consultancy based in the Ottawa Valley in Canada. I'm also, obviously, the host of Where It Is In The Workplace, and I'm the co-founder of a technology startup called The Trained to Help Project, trainedtohelp.com. But Weirdos in the workplace. This is where we are today. And there's a good reason why our values are authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. So for the folks who are just joining us now, it's important to me because I was always a bit of an outcast. I was a rebel. I was a little bit of an outsider growing up. It took me a long time to figure out how to love myself and hone my strengths and my abilities into something that was valuable for the world and to unlearn how to be a loner and build community around me and people around me to help me and help others, help me help others to succeed in life.

That's what I'm doing now. It is a journey. I am not done. I feel like I'm actually just at the beginning of this, but I love that you're joining with me on this journey. I'm a professional problem solver. That's what I call myself. One of the reasons I call myself that is because I feel like I never know what I'm doing. That also pertains to this podcast. Season 2, we do have a bit of a plan, believe it or not. We have 45 episodes. There will be 45 episodes similar to Season 1. I am actually only going to be doing five solo podcasts this year because what we want to do is invite more people on the podcast to share the amazing work that they do. Every single person that we're inviting on the podcast this year has something, a special solution, a unique way of thinking and a unique solution to a real problem in the world.

Just a sneak peek, we're talking to Lydia DiFrancesco, who's a corporate wellness specialist and expert speaker. We're talking about a real relevant problem in corporate wellness, which is burnout. 

Talking to Lisa Strangway about how small businesses can revitalize their online brand. What happens when your brand is a little bit stale? You haven't been evolving with the times. And boy, oh, boy, are the times changing so fast. 

We're talking to Jen Broad and Laura Lobe from a company called Live Work Play. It's a nonprofit charitable organization in Ottawa, and they work with people with disabilities to support them to get jobs. And then they work with the employers to help the employers learn how to build a better workplace for everyone, not just people with disabilities. 

We're talking to Lauren Sheil about succession planning. What happens when you want to transfer your business or you're thinking about, maybe it's your father, maybe it's your grandfather, maybe it's you that is aging and wants to retire. My goodness, you have a generational business, perhaps a family business, and you want to pass that on to the next generation. What are some of the things that you need to think about there? 

We're talking to Tina Collins, who's an amazing executive coach, and she is supporting us in understanding what to do when your star employee has become a little bit toxic. What can you do? Do you terminate them? Do you fire them? What can you do to help them understand what the challenges are and help them evolve out of that? 

Then we're talking to Peter Georgariou, who is an amazing entrepreneur in Ottawa in the marketing and change space. He's talking about redefining value, your value proposition. How do you get to where you are right now, today as a company, to where you want to be in the future? Peter has a really interesting spin on it because he really works with impactful businesses, businesses who have really big social, environmental, or governance goals. 

We have Sydney Elaine Butler, who is an amazing neurodiversity advocate, building neuroinclusive spaces. We're talking about the challenges on a hybrid, working from home, working from the office. How do you go about building an inclusive environment that respects the way everyone needs to work? 

We have so many amazing guests coming on the podcast this year, and still some to plan. We've done several recordings. We've recorded over 10 episodes at this point of the season. We haven't even started the season yet, so that's exciting. We have many, many to go. We're going to be sharing lots of interesting content over the next nine months that we're together.

The podcast is going to drop same as always, every Wednesday morning, every week. You'll be able to get that on YouTube, on Spotify, Apple Music, iHeart, podcast, wherever you get your podcast. The season is really This season is really all about learning how to learn faster and solving problems quickly. There's a lot of problems in the world right now. I think we all feel it. I know I feel it. There seems to be an overwhelming, almost like an impending sense of doom is what a lot of people, how a lot of people are describing it. If you're feeling an overwhelming, impending sense of doom, know that you're not alone. You are far from alone. I'm certainly one of those people as well. I'm very good at keeping everything in perspective and focusing on the positivist, but also thinking about, I think about things very scientifically. I like to think about research and statistics, and it helps me ground myself. But there's this something in the background going on, even though that is all true about me, maybe about you, too. Even though we're trying to keep everything in perspective, there's still something that we're sensing.

There's something we're sensing, and we're all sensing this. There's a lot of patterns that are challenging right now, that are challenging us in the world at different levels. At the global international level, there's a lot of patterns. There's lots of patterns at the national level or the In North America. There's political shifts happening. There's economic shifts happening. It's a very interesting time. A lot of people are leaving their jobs. Something is stick to stick. I heard the The other day, something like, it was like 85% of employees are looking to... They're looking. They're just looking for jobs. People are constantly looking for new opportunities right now. It's a little tight. Money is a little tight for people. I think there's some people that are in trouble, for sure. There's always some people that are in trouble. But I think even people that are used to being all okay are feeling a little bit of a crunch. It's not about reacting, it's really about responding. So thinking about how to make smarter decisions. And that is literally why we are doing what we're doing this season and bringing 40 people with very diverse backgrounds onto the podcast so that we can provide you with interesting solutions or different ways to think about specific problems.

Within the learning and development in space, we call this vertical development. So we're looking to build context. We're not helping you build skills, we're helping you build context. So connecting the dots and seeing the patterns and Building what we call a mind map, a map of the information that you have in your head that you can use to make decisions, to pull in quickly in order to make faster decisions. So there's a lot of common problems that businesses are having right now and that people are having right now. It doesn't even matter what age you are. Although I think that a lot of folks who listen to this podcast do tend to be on the younger side Often, millennials and Gen Zs, Gen Zs and millennials who either own businesses or want to own a business someday. It's a real or maybe very soon in the future is a goal, and often neurodivergent in way. You identify with being a rebel, being a little bit of a weirdo. So, weirdos and rebel-rousers, unite. We're going to help you through the podcast, through the mentorship that we'll get from these amazing folks who are coming on the podcast, we're going to give you our wisdom, and hopefully maybe give me their wisdom, too, because I'm always looking for wisdom.

Maybe they can lend me some of their confidence, I hope. Confidence that we're going to get through this, and we will. Most days I feel very confident that things are going to improve, but even sometimes I need to borrow a little bit of that confidence from somebody else. So let's lean on each other. If you're a business owner and a business leader, and you're listening to this right now, I want to know what you want to hear. There's still lots of time to give me feedback check so that I can know exactly what problems you need solved. So send me an email at erin@positivist. Ca, or hit me up on any of those social media platforms, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, although I'm really bad at checking Instagram, so maybe not there. I will definitely respond, and we'll have a good chat, hopefully. But I want to hear what the problems are. What are you struggling right now? What are you sensing? What are you feeling? What have you identified? Let's talk about that. For anyone who wants to become part of the podcast, if you are a professional problem solver and you consider yourself a subject at our expert in some way, I'd love to hear from you and see if there's some synergy.

So hit me up. Linkedin is probably the best. Linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell, E-R-I-N-P-A-T-C-H-E-L-L. Whenever I'm I'm feeling a little bit unsettled, a little bit ungrounded, a little worried, a little bit sensing that there's something off about the universe. The book that I usually go to is The Tao Te Ching, which is… this is the Steven Mitchell version, but I'm going to read verse 45 for you. True perfection seems imperfect, yet it is perfectly itself. True fullness seems empty, yet it is fully present. True straightness seems crooked. True wisdom seems foolish. True art seems artless. The master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come. She steps out of the way and lets the now speak for itself.

I'm so curious to see what this year holds, and I'd love for you to follow along with us, and I want to follow along with you, so reach out.

In the meantime, don't forget to stay weird, stay and don't stay out of trouble.

Visit us at positivist.ca and trainedtohelp.com.

Hello, and welcome back to Weirdos in the Workplace. I'm your host, Erin Patchell. Today isn't just another episode. It's a special one. It is our season finale. It is January 31, and it has been, I think, ten months since we started this podcast and 45 episodes. So today we're going to have a little reflection on the incredible journey of growth, discovery, and stepping out of my comfort zone that happened as we went through season one.

When I started this podcast, I literally had no idea what I was doing. And I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing. But we're figuring it out, and I'm glad that you're on this journey with me. So stay tuned.

[intro music]

Have you ever wanted to start a podcast or build something that gets your voice out there, or allows somebody else to get their voice out there in the universe and build a platform where people can say what they think and what they want and their dreams and help people and serve. Or maybe you're just looking for a creative outlet for yourself. So this episode is going to be all about the different lessons that I learned along the way when I started the podcast, and then through the last almost year. And I'll talk a little bit about the future of the podcast as well, or future of podcasts in terms of what is the strategies that I've learned that we can implement in order to grow the podcast. So if you're really interested in podcasting, or you're just curious about it, this is definitely the episode for you.

So everyone asks me why I started the podcast, and I don't know if I have a very good reason, to be honest, it was just sort of a whim. One day I knew that I wanted to have some kind of media platform for positivist group, for my company, something where clients, interesting people, our consultants, we could all have a voice on that platform. And I thought I would just test out podcasting as a media. And honestly, the first time that I recorded, when I first recorded my first episode on being the dumbest person in the room, literally had no idea. I have a Mac, and with the Mac comes garageband, and I'm still recording on Garageband to this day. So I literally just recorded the audio straight into garageband. I not an audio technician, I have no idea what I'm doing. I literally stream of consciousness just started talking into the microphone, kind of pausing when I got kind of stalled when my words weren't flowing correctly, kind of editing as I went.

And then by the end of it, I had, I think like an eight minute podcast episode and I listened to it, and I was like, you know, I don't hate that. It's not terrible. It's kind of like, authentic. I kind of dig it. It's whatever, right? Kind of shows my personality. And it's not perfect, but I don't know if I need it to be perfect. That's not me. I am not someone who is cursed with perfectionism.

I will say that. And I'm also not somebody who's cursed with impostor syndrome. I pretty much feel like I'm comfortable in almost any situation at this point, at least if I've decided to be there. If I have agency in the situation and I have chosen to become a part of something, I will own it. Like, I don't feel uncomfortable now. If I'm forced into a situation, that's a totally different story. I am incredibly uncomfortable in situations that are forced. But as long as I've chosen to do something, I go all in.

I just put all my cards on the table. So whether I do it well or poorly doesn't really matter to me, because I know that I'm going to learn something through the process. And by the way, that mindset wasn't something that I was born with. That's something that I have learned over the last 40 years of my life. And so I think it's actually a good thing. When I talk to people about that kind of mindset, the way that I think about things, I'm told that it's very healthy. So, yeah, it's a process. You learn by doing, you learn by failing, and you figure out that the only person who control your own emotions is you.

So all that to say, I didn't really care if my first episodes or even my 45th episode was shit. I figured that I would learn, and from feedback. The only way that I feel like I can learn is from feedback. Like, for example, the other day, I threw some TikToks up on the first TikToks that I ever made, which I have no idea what I'm doing, like I said. And of course, my 16 year old daughter's like, mom, those were so embarrassing and cringy. And now she's demanding to be my social media manager for TikTok. So we'll see. Maybe I'll have a 16 year old social media manager.

I think there's good things happening on TikTok for Positivist Group in the future. And that's the thing. You need to get feedback, even if it's absolutely brutal. The more brutal, almost the better. In some ways, because if it's wishy washy, then I might not take it as seriously. But if it's brutal feedback, well, yeah, I got to pay attention to that. In terms of the podcast, though, we've gotten really good feedback. We've had some pretty awesome guests on the podcast this year, and people even seem to be enjoying the solo podcasts that I'm putting out as well.

And I'm really trying to be thoughtful about them. So if you have been enjoying them, that's awesome. I'd love to hear from you. And if you also have feedback from me, I would love to hear that as well. To me, this is a community project. I'm trying to bring as many people onto the podcast as I can, who are interesting people, who have interesting things to say. And season two is going to be that much better because we have a whole strategy for season two that I'll share.

So, yeah, I think that it's been a really interesting ride, and it's just the consistency. So that's the most important thing, I think, when it comes to any project like this is consistency. Making sure that you are releasing at approximately the same time every week or whatever your time frame is. We're posting every week. Our episodes aren't overly long. We're not posting two hour long episodes. They're 35 minutes or less, and often quite a bit less. My solo episodes range from eight minutes to about 18 minutes, and then the episodes with guests range from usually 20 to 35 minutes, kind of more towards the 35 minutes side of things. So that means that I can put them out generally every week, and I have for the last 45 weeks.

So having a consistent kind of brand message. What's the purpose of the podcast? Obviously, the title of the podcast, I feel, speaks for itself. Weirdos. In the workplace, we are trying to build cultures where everyone can feel at home and even heal. So authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose, as someone who always felt like an outsider, those are the four values that really were like the North Star in terms of building cultures, of inclusion, at least from my perspective. And so bringing everyone on the podcast, anyone who's on the podcast, really aligning with those values, but then helping to figure out what's a building block.

So whether it was executive presence with Eleanor Eves, whether it was improv with, you know, whether it was the impact of empathy with Maxine Buddh, being a neurodivergent creative with Stephanie Demontini, learning about our sleep patterns, particularly insomnia, which I think a lot of us struggle with, with Erin Arkin. Talking about revolutionary leadership with Ange McCabe. Reshaping e learning, the next generation of e learning with Hanye Koshku. Bringing Eleanor back on the podcast to talk about why women at work are more ambitious than know, talking about being a disruptive creator with Robert Smith, building corporate wellness into a cultural practice with Kelly Ryan, and digging deep into personal development and leadership with Garen Jemian.

I'm now proud to call these guests my friends, even if we were just acquaintances before they came on the podcast, some of them were beginning to do some work together as well. So it's just a great community building, networking opportunity. And also, the whole point is to serve people. I'm a strong believer in servant leadership. We did an episode on servant leadership way back in the beginning of the podcast, and my whole life is designed, I've designed my life to serve people, to serve the biggest possible audience, and to make the biggest possible impact. And so in order to do that, part of that was I need to get outside my comfort zone.

If the end goal is to make the biggest possible impact that I can make, I become my biggest bottleneck, my biggest roadblock. So what is it that I would do? What is it that you would do if you weren't afraid to do it, if you weren't afraid to fail, or if you weren't afraid of success? I was never really afraid to fail, but I was terrified of success. And I'll tell you why. Success meant attachment. It meant that I had to maintain my success. People who are successful have a lot of demands on their time and their energy. More importantly, a lot of demands on their energy. They have to make a lot of people happy, and I'm not sure I was ready for that kind of responsibility.

I'm still not entirely sure, but I'm committed to it anyways. So I guess we'll see how it goes. And if it becomes too much, I can always roll it back to a level where it's a bit more sustainable for me. But at this point in time, I'm ready for what the future brings. And if it's success, then I believe that I'm ready for it. But I think that is a good question for everyone. If you want to make the biggest possible impact, what are you afraid of? What's holding you back? Okay, so now that we've talked a little bit about philosophy, which I can't help myself, I'll take you through a few of the tactical things that I do to get my podcast up and running. So the podcast hosting company that I'm with is Libsyn, and there are lots of others, and some of them I think are rated higher than Libsyn as well.

So take that with a grain of salt. But I find it's been very easy to use. So I guess that says something. I record on Garageband, edit on garageband, export the files, I upload the files to Libsyn. I use canva to create the podcast images. And I've also been using recently, this is just in the last month or so, I've been using canva as well to create our shorts, shorts for YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. I haven't been posting them on LinkedIn yet. I don't know if I will.

I just don't want to overload that platform with a lot of shorts. I don't know that that's the right strategy for that one, but time will tell. I also use an AI tool called Cast Magic, which I've been finding really helpful. And that one helps with the transcript. So it'll create the transcript which you do have to edit because it's not perfect. And I went back and I looked at some and I was like, I clearly did not edit that properly, but oh well. And then it also will create some AI kind of keywords, titles, clip finders like LinkedIn posts, scripts, things like that. I haven't been using the full value of those.

I do take some of it as inspiration. I do think that's helpful to get the inspiration. But you could probably get a lot of that, I think, from just from like you could probably just use Chat GPT as well to get a lot of that. So everything gets put onto Libsyn. So it gets pushed to Libsyn. That's like the title. It asks for the author, the script, yada yada, the actual file, it's audio file itself. And then Libsyn, once you save that, it posts everything and it pushes it to all of the major podcasting platforms like iHeartradio, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

And through YouTube you can actually get the RSS stream, which is the location basically from Libsyn, from the host of the podcast where the podcasts are hosted. You can pull that straight to YouTube. So that's what we've been doing and then adding our shorts onto YouTube. When I first started, I really didn't want to play the whole marketing game. I wasn't doing this necessarily know. I wasn't doing this for lead generation purposes. It was for educational purposes. I was okay with a slow growth.

I was not looking to be a social media, like an influencer of any kind, and still not, by the way. But I do think there's valuable content here. So I did want the content to be found, and it didn't take me very long to discover that you really do have to play the game if you want to be found. And I'm still learning that. I'm still going to be learning that for the rest of the lifetime of this podcast, I'm sure. Because the game always changes. That's the fun part about the game. But one of our values is authenticity.

So I wanted to make sure that we were doing it in a way that wasn't deceitful. I didn't want to have too much legit clickbait if the title of the podcast didn't match the content. To me, that's a problem, but it does have to be compelling. So this is something that we have to think about. It's something that we have to put time and energy into. Is will people be interested in this? What do people want to hear? And that becomes easier and easier the longer you move forward because you are getting that feedback. But there's a lot we can do. There's so much content online already.

So the best place to look is to just start looking and seeing what other people are doing kind of in the same space, and what's been popular and what has not been popular. And from our research, stuff that has a shock value is definitely more popular than stuff that's more educational. And we're trying to not go there. I don't want to just be a shock jockey, although I definitely have the personality for it. The problem with creating something for shock value is that it's really not practical at all. You can't implement it, it's not useful. And more than anything else, I want this to be useful. So after thinking about that, we decided the second season of weirdos in the workplace was going to be very much focused on practical problem solving, still focused on the values of authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose.

But what are the building blocks that create inclusive, high performing, profitable organizations? And let's focus on those and the real problems that organizations are having today, especially revenue generation. Yes, we're trying to build inclusive cultures, but there's not even a business if you don't have revenue and if you don't have profit. So really thinking about, like, how do we create businesses that have both of those things, purpose and profit. So that's what we're focusing on in season two, and we're bringing those 30 professional problem solvers. So we're going to have 45 episodes, same as season 115 of those episodes are going to be solo episodes, just to help sort of draw a line in the sand and recap, like reflect and go forward. And then the 30 episodes are going to have guests who are professional problem solvers who also have some of their own platforms as well. And we'll be literally real time problem solving. I'm going to walk them through a problem solving framework, and we're going to problem solve in real time a real customer issue or issue from our listeners.

So if you're listening to this and you're like, I have a big problem that I would like you guys to help me solve. We have free expert problem solvers that are happy to help you. So please feel free to email me at Erin at Positivist, CA or you can find me on most social media platforms at. Or, you know, find my team if you want to message my team online at positivist group on most of the platforms except for TikTok, that one's at the positivist. And don't go look, because apparently it's embarrassing. And this is why reverse mentorship is the best. Because these kids, my God, they are just the most amazing, brutal feedback givers in the entire world. Get thyself a reverse mentor.

A younger mentor. Yeah. That's all I have to say about that. So I think you should start a podcast this year if you've been interested in doing a podcast. If you want to dip your toes in, maybe do one a month or something, but schedule it in your calendar, commit to it. Make it sacred. That's how I manage to do things that I don't always want to do. Because believe me, there have definitely been weeks where I'm really tired.

It's been like, I've been working 15 hours a day. I've been grinding, and the last thing I want to do is have to record a podcast, and I didn't have previous content recorded or whatever. So you have to make it sacred. Make it sacred. It's a ritual in your life, and you will not miss it. That's how you get it done. Commit to a certain number of episodes and then decide whether you're going to continue. There's nothing wrong with that, but do it for yourself.

As much as I was just talking about figuring out what your customers want and blah, blah, blah, and researching what other people are doing, well, at the end of the day, if you don't love your content, if you don't love your message, you're not going to want to do it anyways, so you have to do it for yourself. When I was at the TED conference back in 2023 in Vancouver, it was April 2023, I believe I had lunch with a gentleman named Darryl Frank, who is the co president of Amblin television. That's Steven Spielberg's company. And the one question I really wanted to know was, how do you decide on your content? How do you decide what you are going to produce? And the answer that he gave me is, well, we kind of figure out what we want to watch and then kind of backtrack from there and figure out how to get that done. So I would recommend and it was like, yes, that is just the right answer that I wanted to hear. So make content that you want to make that is interesting for you and you will definitely find people who are interested in it. But in order to market to those people, you have to know what words they're searching for. You have to understand their personas.

Right? So it's a both. It's in. Yes. And so as this season wraps up, I'm looking back with gratitude and I'm looking forward with excitement. The lessons that I learned, boundaries I pushed, the comfort zones have expanded, have made this journey unforgettable. So to you, the listener, thank you for joining me on this adventure. Your support and feedback have been what has kept me going. And as we gear up for next season, remember to never shy away from the edge of your comfort zone because that's where the magic happens.

If you like this episode, don't forget to like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Don't forget to connect with us at positivist.ca or on social media @positivistgroup. And if you're a business owner or a business leader looking for like, hardcore business learning topics, we have a book club. One of my team members reminded me that I hadn't mentioned that for a while. So if you go to positivist.ca/book-club, then you'll find the book club and you can register. And it's mostly virtual. Every quarter we do an in person in Ottawa.

If you're Ottawa local, then you're more than welcome to join us in, you know, all the rest of the months of the year, we're virtual via Zoom and we focus on hardcore business topics. So feel free to connect and I can share more about that. As always, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. This is Erin Patchell signing off; January 31, the final podcast of the season. Season two gearing up April 3. So stay tuned and there will be lots of sneak peeks between now and then. Have a beautiful day at work.

[outro music]

If you liked this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at Positivist.ca, or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup. Have a beautiful day at work.

Welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we detangle how to live and thrive as business owners and business leaders, while all the while demonstrating authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and today we're talking about what to expect in 2024. We're also going to set some intentions for season two of weirdos in the workplace, and I'm going to make some commitments on behalf of my company, positivist group. Stay tuned. By all accounts, is going to be kind of a weird year. Canadian SME magazine, BDC, Harvard Business Review, and so many others are doing their best to predict the future so that we don't have to. And I know that nobody can predict the future. It's literally impossible.

But there are definitely some trends I think that we need to keep our eye on as small and medium sized business owners or folks who are leading organizations here in Canada. And the first trend I'd like to talk about is hyper personalization. And so hyper personalization is something that we have started to see in the last ten years. It's going to continue long into the future. And I think that we can all agree that with the advances of AI and the fact that organizations are capable of hyper personalizing using AI and machine learning, it's going to become much more important for organizations to get on that bandwagon. And the hyper personalization bandwagon is simultaneously aligned with the trust violations. So this year, I think we've seen since, even before the pandemic, we've been seeing trust at an all time low. This shows up in all kinds of ways, but it shows up in the way that our politics are fractured.

It shows up in the way that we're seeing conspiracy theories, tons of conspiracy theories online. It shows up in our everyday relationships and friction within the workplace. It shows up in employee engagement. It shows up in retaining our employees. So we're in a very low trust environment. Nobody really knows who to trust what's real anymore. We have deep fakes online. And so this erosion of trust is going to, I think, dramatically affect small businesses and large businesses all over the world in 2024 and beyond.

And I think it's only going to get worse because we really don't have any checks and balances right now. When it comes to AI, there's not really any way of knowing what's real. Obviously, some of the deep fakes are really obvious, but some of them are really quite good. So skepticism is the order of the day. Critical thinking is the order of the day. And with that, really focusing more on those one to one relationships. Building trust in a very personal way with your employees and with your customers is going to be paramount. Some of the ways that I think businesses are going to need to evolve in order to build more trust is through that omnichannel, brand communication through engaging customers using voice and video media, either one to one or one to many.

Taking, like we said, a far more personalized approach to everything that you do. I think relying on one channel, for example, like Google Adwords or I guess Google Ads now and Facebook is no longer going to work out, really. You need to be on every platform and you need to build a multi generational audience. How can we create more human to human interactive moments? Moments that we're being vulnerable, moments where we're being honest, moments where we're demonstrating transparency. We're bringing our customers along a journey along. They're feeling like they're part of our story. Another really important trend is the fact that people are getting very selective about where they're spending their money. Customers are getting a lot more real about wanting to align with corporate values, not buying international, buying local.

There's definitely a kind of deglobalization effect happening or a localization effect happening. And part of that was partly due to the supply chain issues. Part of that is issues with values of different countries that we may have been purchasing from before. There's starting to be a trend in the direction of minimalism and value for dollar, but not at the expensive values. So in summary, customers are learning that every dollar matters. They don't have as much disposable income as they used to be used to, and they're seeking quality over quantity. Basically, we have to give them a reason to buy from you. The BDC, that's the business Development bank of Canada, recommends a strong focus on human resources management to recruit and retain the best people.

I mean, obviously, in our observations, employee engagement and retention is not an HR issue. That's something that has become very apparent over the last several years of failed employee engagement projects and failed employee retention projects, is HR cannot just hold up the entire organization. HR is almost never the reason why employees become disengaged or leave their companies. It is a management problem, not an HR problem, and often it's an operational problem. So if you're in HR and you feel like you're pushing a boulder up a hill and like, banging your head against a wall, that's probably why you need to advocate that. This is a whole team challenge. This is a whole team opportunity. It might be something that needs to be built into your operating model and you only have so much influence.

So cross functional teaming, when it comes to solving some of these people problems, is going to be the order of business in 2024. It's always been important, just as being client focused or customer focused has always been important, but we need that much more of a focus on these areas. We need to be brutal when it comes to decision making. We need to just totally cut the fat and focus on making sure we're building those really strong foundations for teaming and building that total transparency. I mean, not total transparency, we're never totally transparent. But when it comes to decision making, we need to understand why. It enables us to understand the cross functional teaming enables us to understand how every single change impacts every corner of the organization in order for us to make better upfront decisions. It's like renovating a house.

If you had a tool, most of you have probably renovated a house or have known someone who's renovated a house, right? So if you had a tool that allowed you to see through every single wall and understand the plumbing, the wiring, the structure, all ahead of time, before you took out the walls to the kitchen and found knob and tube wiring and questionable vermiculate, and yes, I'm speaking from experience here, then you'd have to be crazy to go ahead with the demo unless you saw that everything was like perfectly well and good and you had the budget for it and there were no issues. So making sure that you have that transparency, that crossed functional teaming, that information gives you clarity to make sure you know what the issues are before they become issues. Of course, that only works if your team is willing to be honest. So your relationship equity becomes the most important tool into your toolbox. And so we're circling back here. We're circling back to trust. Every positive interaction, every moment of support, every successful collaboration deposits that equity, that relationship equity and builds trust and goodwill. Goodwill, holy moly, so important.

Conversely, those misunderstandings, conflicts, or negative interactions, or absent interactions are withdrawals. So your goal as a business owner or business leader isn't just to keep your relationship bank account in the black. It's to have such a strong bank account that even if something traumatic happens, like a decision that you have no other choice to make but that you know will negatively affect the team, for example, that you have little question that the team will know for sure that you did the best that you could in the scenario because you actually care and you've demonstrated that you care about them over and over and over again. So the question of the day is, can your team trust you to make smart decisions and do your best to take care of them? In a more hierarchical organization, it starts at the top. That's probably you. That might be you. If the leader at the top isn't worthy of trust, the trust connection with the company will always be broken. There will be always a gaping hole at the bottom that you're trying to fill.

So don't do these things. Don't demonstrate poor judgment and not listen to your team members concerns. Don't burn bridges. Don't be generally uncooperative or stubborn about always having your own way. Don't be unwilling to change, even if there are decent reasons to do so. Don't not make amends for past mistakes, and definitely make sure you acknowledge them. Don't break confidentiality. Don't lie, and you'd be shocked how many leaders directly lie to their teams.

Don't be a hypocrite. Don't use dirty tactics or cheating. As soon as you start playing dirty, nobody on your team's going to trust you again because they know that that's your character. Don't manipulate others. And that goes for the same as soon as you start manipulating people, and anyone who becomes aware of that manipulation is no longer ever going to trust you. And yes, there is a gigantic chasm of a difference between manipulation and influence. They're totally different things. And despite all of these sort of challenges that I've just mentioned, the BDC actually predicts that the economy is going to be pretty resilient in 2024, with economic growth hovering around 1%, with inflation a little bit higher, around 3% potentially.

And these are just estimates from their most recent report. So who knows what's going to change if you are trying to grow a business in 2024? Some potentially good news for you, as long as you have a clear path to profitability. BDC is predicting that investors will favor companies that have a very solid business case, so having your business plan is going to be more important than ever. If you are in an industry that is related to the environment, social or governance, then you will probably have a better shot. So integrating these principles and values into your work is going to be especially important going forward. And the one thing that I hope that maybe is a good takeaway from this episode is solving problems quickly. Don't let problems fester. I think that we need to address them while they're as small as possible and being transparent about what the problems are with your team members as much as you can and being really just as real and practical as possible through the decision making process.

I don't think this is the year for like pie in the sky airy fairy thinking. I think really this is the year to get seriously practical and solutions focused and targeted. And sometimes the beauty of constraints is that it makes us more innovative anyways, right? So once we know where the boundaries are, the guardrails are, we can play within them. And honestly, some of the greatest innovations have come from within a very small box or in a garage. Even. So, I'm looking forward to seeing what amazing innovations come out in 2024, despite the fact that maybe funding is a little bit more challenging to acquire and we're not as expansively thinking perhaps as we are in other years. Before we wrap up today's episode, I just want to say that we're really excited for season two of weirdos in the workplace. We're bringing on 30 professional problem solvers to help diagnose and problem solve real customer and challenges from our listeners just like you.

And so if you have a story that you'd like to share about something that's going on, could be anything in the world. It could be anything from grants funding, to diversity equity inclusion, to building and implementing your environmental, social and governance plan to Bob's your uncle. Seriously, any problem you have at work, if it's a people problem or an operational problem or a sales problem, I'm inviting a whole bunch of diverse people onto the show and we're going to literally problem solve your problem in real time. So that should be a lot of fun. For my company, positivist group, we are getting really practical this year. We are hyper focusing on projects, internal and external projects, and we're totally cutting the fat and getting rid of all of the distractions. So that is definitely I'm trying to follow my own advice and we've got some really interesting projects in the accessibility and inclusion space that I'm really excited to announce. If you do follow us on social media at Positivist Group or on LinkedIn, LinkedIn.com Slash company Slash positivist group or myself, erinpachel, then you can follow along with that.

Otherwise, I will leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors. In case you didn't know, I am a bit of a fantasy fiction junkie and love the I've been reading over and over and over again for most of my life, the series Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and so this quote is from Fires of Heaven: "The oak fought the wind, and was broken, the willow bent when it must and survived."

And I do feel like that is a great quote for 2024. So as always, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

[outro]

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at Positivist.ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup. Have a beautiful day at work.

Erin: Welcome to weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose and its impact on our world of work. And I'm here today with my special guest, Kelly Ryan. Say hello, Kelly.

Kelly: Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for having me on.

Erin: Erin, I'm so excited to have you on. Kelly is the owner of nerd mom Nutrition and helps companies support their leaders and employees so they can have more energy and focus at home and at work. She's a culinary nutrition expert, certified holistic nutritionist, facilitator, and coach. And Kelly, you also have a Rogers cable tv series called Nerd Mom Kitchen Adventures, which features your kids who are eight and eleven. Is that right?

Kelly: Eight and eleven? Yeah.

Erin: You're amazing. All right, what are we talking about today, Kelly?

Kelly: We are pretty much talking about, I guess, everything corporate health and wellness.

Erin: Absolutely. All right, folks, stay tuned. So, Kelly, if a company wanted to work with you to support their employees or their team and their culture, what exactly can you do for them?

Kelly: Yeah, so I call myself the sidekick, but really, I firmly believe that it's in a company's best interest to support their employees health and wellness. And I like to support that in a fun, nerdy kind of way. So I'll go into a company and I'll either do a live talk, and I've got a couple that I do. The funner one is the eight health zapping supervillains and the superheroes that defeat them.

Erin: You must make that into a book, if you haven't already.

Kelly: I should make that into a book. Maybe a comic. Yes. That could be fun. A graphic novel or something. Yeah. So that's one. Or I'll do, like, from exhausted to energetic live talk.

Kelly: So it's all about that healthy living, energetic kind of vibe. Or I'll do a cooking demo, and I've done a couple of really fun cooking demos. One company I worked for, they're all Star wars. Like, they all love Star wars. Their servers are even named after Star wars characters.

Erin: Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

Kelly: Yeah. So I went and I did a Star wars themed cooking demo. That's a lot of fun. And, yeah, I do another live talk that's all about from exhausted to energetic. And that's basically how you can make little changes in your own life and how companies can support their employees with their health changes, so you can have tons of energy. I'll also do cooking demos, and they can be a lot of fun because I had one client who they all love Star wars. Their servers are even named, like, different Star wars names and stuff. So we went and we did a Star wars themed cooking demo.

Kelly: I love that. Yeah. So that was a lot of fun. And other than that, we'll do fun challenges, which are a little bit longer, or we'll do a workshop where we'll do a live talk and then what they learn, we put into practice. Or I'll actually help a company with their health and wellness policies, procedures program, that sort of thing. Yeah.

Erin: Awesome. So you actually can go into a company and help them with policies related to this?

Kelly: Sort of. I have a background in quality policy planning, internal auditing.

Erin: That's a bonus.

Kelly: Yeah. So that's kind of why I decided to go and work corporate health and wellness. But that's part of the reason I think it's really important for companies to support their employees health and wellness, because the reality is we spend a lot of hours at work, and you don't want your employees to feel that work is a barrier to their health and their wellness. Right. And a lot of employees feel that way. They find it hard to take care of their own health. And it's important for a company to support their employees health and wellness so that they can be present, they can be creative, they can feel focused. And a lot of that comes from whether it's mental health, whether it's physical health, what they're eating, drinking up water.

Erin: How much control do you think your clients or any organizations have over the health and wellness of their employees, especially in terms of, obviously, nutrition, because that's your main area of focus. And what have you seen successful companies do to help integrate that? So it's not like such, this division of church and state. You go eat healthy at home, or you try to, and then you come to work and all hell breaks loose. How do we integrate that?

Kelly: It's not about control, because people don't like feeling controlled. It's more about creating that culture, that health and wellness culture. So it's more about supporting and encouraging. Right. And providing the information. I mean, it can be everything from putting posters up on your walls to having walking meetings. Or instead of ordering pizza, maybe ordering salad, soups, sandwiches. Right.

Instead of having pepsi or coke in your fridge, have water, have a Brita filter or something. So it's about those little things. One big important thing is, as we know, people don't do what we say, they do what we do. So creating that culture, living that lifestyle as a leader is very important. And encouraging your employees to take care of themselves. I mean, how many people. Oh, well, I got to work through my lunchtime. So I'll just skip the gym today.

Right. Whereas, no, it's important. No, you need to go to the gym or whatever. If it's yoga, gym, go for a walk, whatever it is, it's encouraging them to do the things that are important to maintain a healthy lifestyle. Now, I do believe in the ED 20 rule because I think community is very important, but not mandating things, but growing that healthy culture. Right. And when you grow that culture, you're going to attract those employees that want to live in that culture.

Erin: What does culture mean to you?

Kelly: Culture? To me, culture, it's basically, to me, the way the people that you attract, it's the environment that you nurture. And that can be a positive environment. It can be a toxic environment. It can be one that's centered around, yeah, maybe it's fun, but unhealthy. So your culture is. It could be one that's just strategically work, work, grind, grind, grind. Or it can be one where it's like, okay, it could be supportive. So your culture is just almost like the vibe that you nurture in your company and the people that you attract to your company.

Erin: Yeah, I think that's very similar to how I would describe it as well. And I would also add how we work together, kind of like the behaviors that we expect and the different team norms and different values that we use to make decisions and all of those things. Right.

Kelly: I agree. Yeah. Values is a big part of culture, I think.

Erin: Yeah, I run into, and you probably run into this as well. Folks are skeptical. Maybe the word only because I hear this a lot. We don't have the time to do XYZ program. We're too busy. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether it's like diversity, equity, inclusion, or performance management, even we don't have time for performance management. I'm like, you don't not have time.

Kelly: You don't, no. If you don't have time for performance management, you should be doing double the amount.

Erin: Yeah, seriously. Exactly. But you probably run into that as well, where people are just like, we don't have time for nutritional or to do that, to do health and wellness programming. We're already eating, working through our lunches. We're working late or whatever. What do you tell companies or leaders in companies who have that issue?

Kelly: If you don't have time for a walk, then you should take two walks.

Erin: Yes.

Kelly: We're all busy. But the fact is that if you start taking care of yourself, you will be. And same thing for your employees. They're going to be more creative, they're going to be more efficient, effective. So you'll get more for less and your employees will be more engaged. Because if you don't have time for things like health and wellness, performance management, culture, growing, any of that, if you don't have time for these things, then you're making time for absenteeism. You're making time for presenteeism, which is, I don't know, for any of your listeners if they know what presenteeism is, but that's basically where you're there in body but not in mind. It's the same thing.

Kelly: If you're not making time for health, you're making time for illness, and that's it. So it's in a company's best interest to make time for health, for supporting their employees, for building that culture, or whether supporting your employees is, like you said, through meeting with them, managing them, working with them, helping them with their own health and wellness, supporting them, whether it's mental health, whether it's financial health, whatever, DeI, any of those. If you're not making time for that, well, then you're making time for absenteeism, turnover, presenteeism, lack of focus, lack of creativity. You're making time for having to hire new people, spending money on that.

Erin: Oh, yeah. This isn't just your feelings on the subject. There's so much data that supports this. Yeah, so much data that supports this.

Kelly: There's so much data that supports this. 60% to 75% of not just staff, but also c suite. So all levels have found that work is a barrier to their health and wellness, and they would consider leasing their job for one that better supported their health and wellness. 60% to 75%. That is a huge percentage of the population.

Erin: Oh, yeah. And we know how important it is to retain those important people in our workforce anyways, it's a whole domino effect. Right. And everything's connected.

Kelly: It's in a company's best interest to support their employees. Definitely, yeah.

Erin: Do you believe in work life balance as an entrepreneur, a mom, a blah, blah, blah, like, you've got 1000 things going, you're spinning plates, you're doing the same thing we're all doing here.

Kelly: Yeah. No, I don't believe there's ever 100% perfect balance because you're going to have times that are busier, you're going to have times that are not as busy. And I think I feel that it's never going to be 100% balanced. I mean, if I have a booth at a convention or something, like that. That's a crazy weekend. There is zero balance there.

Erin: Yeah, I know.

Kelly: You know what I'm saying? I mean, it adds up over time and it's probably balanced, but it's never going to be 100% completely balanced at all times. Which, again, is why it's more important to take care of yourself. And when you can take time off. Take time off? Like, I'm taking time off, Christmas time. I'm going to take ten days. Right. I think this is actually going to air in the new year. So I guess I will have taken right during Christmas.

Kelly: But it's like taking that break and I'm going to pretty much unplug and really take a break. And I think you need to do what you can to take care of yourself. You need to build that into your day so that you can be at your best when you need to be, whether it's as a parent or as an employee or an employer or whatever. Self care is very important. But no, I don't truly believe that there is a perfect work life balance. It's trying to find what works best for you at any given time and realize that there's going to be times that are busier and there's going to be times when you can slow down, but when you can slow down. Slow down, like recharge, regenerate. So that during the busy times, you can fire on all cylinders.

Erin: Yeah. Great advice. And I asked that question to a lot of the guests, and I think the answers are all very similar. Even though you probably never listened to the previous episodes, potentially, you guys don't know each other. You do all kinds of different types of things. The one common denominator is pretty much everyone believes in exactly what you said. It's a flow, right? It's an eb and a flow. Yeah.

Erin: And I think we need to kill it dead. The concept of work life balance, wherever that came from, I think it's actually really harmful, because when people strive for an impossible goal, it is incredibly frustrating.

Kelly: Yeah. It's important to know to yourself. I know I've got certain hours of the day where I can be creative because I've got energy, but, I mean, nobody can be creative for 8 hours in a day, like using crazy brain power. I mean, I'm good between nine and maybe two. And then other than that, maybe I'm sending emails or having coffee or learning. You know what I mean? But if I want to do creative work, like blog posts or work on canva or something like that, I've got a window to do it on. And I mean, I know, too now, and this comes with experience. That's the other thing.

Kelly: I mean, you learn things over time, right. But I know now that if I have a booth at a convention, I need to take at least a day or two afterwards off, or else I'm a write off for the rest of the week. And so it's learning to work with your own energy levels when you know, you feel good. And if there's a certain time of the day where it's like, okay, I don't have brain power yet, but I can go to the gym, well, that's a great time to schedule gym time or yoga or hiking or whatever it is that you need to do. So whether you work on a day schedule, like per day schedule or some people are more like on a month, I know a lot of women where men, a lot of times their energy levels peak during a day. With women, it's over a month, which is really interesting. So if you find during this one week in a month, that's your time to be creative, well, that's when you schedule all your creative stuff and you do it then. So learning about yourself, too and when you work best at different things is really valuable.

Erin: That is excellent advice. And, yeah, I've definitely experienced that myself. There's like the day pattern, and then there's this more cyclical, long term cyclical pattern as well. Yes, I think that that message, I hadn't really heard anyone talk about that before. That's a really good message, I think, to get out there.

Kelly: Yeah. Then that way you can work within your energy, and when you feel great.

Erin: You can be very effective. Well, and I mean, a lot of us entrepreneurs are working within different mental health conditions as well. And I think that that more like long term cyclical pattern is relevant for men and women who have certain types of mental health conditions.

Kelly: 100%.

Erin: And that doesn't mean you can't be productive. You just have to give yourself the grace and the understanding to know when you're in an energetic, creative moment, you leverage that. And when you're in a more repressed, sort of like, I need some space and time and I need to be by myself, then you have other kinds of activities you can do at those points in time.

Kelly: Exactly. It doesn't mean that you can't keep moving forward, but maybe that's when you read a book on marketing.

Erin: Yeah, exactly. Or maybe figure out what works for you at different points in time, different energy levels, different personalities. We're not all consistently like the same person from day to day, month to month. I love that.

Kelly: Yeah.

Erin: If there's one thing that you wanted people, if nothing else, that they took away from this conversation, what would that one thing be.

Kelly: For employers? It would be walk the walk. Don't just talk the talk. So work on your own health and wellness and then support your employees health and wellness and grow that culture. For everybody who is struggling with energy, drink water. A lot of times when we're tired, it's because we're actually dehydrated and your brain is made up of like 70% water. So if you're dehydrated, your brain is not going to work on at its maximum capacity. So drink the water.

Erin: That's good advice. Yeah. Awesome. Did you want to quickly pitch your upcoming, I know in January you've got something going on, or January, February, new year.

Kelly: Yeah. So starting in the new year, I'm going to be kind of focusing on new year, new you kind of thing. So it's basically going to be like, let's start the year with a bang. Let's get people energized and back from off the holiday. So I'm actually now booking it. Well, by the time this airs, I'll be probably booking into March, maybe February, March. But I would love to come and help companies with their health and wellness. Whether it's a virtual or live talk or virtual or live cooking demo, it's a lot of fun.

Erin: Do you believe in New Year's resolutions?

Kelly: No, Hard no. Most, I think 70% of New Year's resolutions fail by February. Wow. Yeah. So I believe in creating goals and you want to create smart goals and I believe in taking small steps. The biggest problem with New Year's resolutions is a lot of times they're not done properly. Right. So it's like, I want to lose weight.

Kelly: Right. Well, that's a terrible goal. Your goal should be like, I would like to start going to the gym. If this is what your goal is, start going to the gym three days a week and by the end of the year maintain that habit. You want to focus on smart goals, but the biggest problem is people make these gigantic, unreachable goals that aren't measurable or timely in January and expect that they're going to keep them up and you just can't. You're setting yourself up for failure. So it's better to create a goal and revisit that goal regularly to see if you're maintaining it. And if you're not create, then why not? And either adjust accordingly, or get your button gear and make sure you're attaining it for sure.

Erin: Do you believe in dry January? I have a lot of friends who do this and I find it puzzling, but I'm curious, like, have you heard of this dry January?

Kelly: I've heard of it. My husband actually did dry January, and he has now been dry for two years almost, I think, I want to say. So he kept it up. I believe in it. If you're doing something for the long term, even if it's like, I just want to decrease. Whether it's decrease or completely cut out alcohol, I could see it as like a kick starting kind of thing, but I don't see really any point to it if you're just going to go back to old habits afterwards.

Erin: Yeah, I feel like that can sometimes, especially when it comes to people who struggle with alcoholism. It's almost like that, like, crash diet. I don't know that they're, Albert, really healthy, but I'm not an expert. So the jury is out for me. But I wonder about it. Oh, yeah. Crash diets don't do it. I think that we've all learned our lesson, hopefully there at this point.

Kelly: I agree. I think it's like the crash diet of alcohol. It's like either decide that you're quitting or decreasing and stick with it or not.

Erin: And maybe some folks need help and if they need extra help, do you usually make recommendations there?

Kelly: Yeah, if somebody needs extra help when it comes to alcohol in particular, go to an Al Anon or. No, I think Al Anon is for the mean, get the help that you need. Because the fact is, whether it's alcohol, mental health, nutrition, whatever, there's professionals out there who know how to best help you. And I mean, if you want, like making change in your life can be difficult. It can be very difficult. And so I think it's really important to get what I mean, just as a football player hires a coach or many business people, entrepreneurs, they hire business coaches for your health and wellness. I mean, you have doctors. There's psychiatrists, psychologists, naturopathic doctors.

Kelly: There's so much potential help out there for whatever is going on. Just take the help.

Erin: Yeah. Sometimes I think that we use our purpose driven goals, like our business goals, our life, like these haughty sort of pie in the sky goals to distract ourselves from our just everyday realities. I think sometimes you got to remember just like the building blocks.

Kelly: Yeah. It's the foundations, right? Yeah. I mean, no person's an island. We're meant to be in a community. We're meant to rely on each other and help each other. That's what happened for millennia. And it's only now, in this digital age, really, that you see that less and less. And if we learned anything from COVID it's how much that we need other people.

Kelly: So if you need help, ask for the help. Most people love helping, and one lesson I learned was if someone offers help is because they truly want to, you're not being a pain by accepting their help. They would not offer unless they actually wanted to help. So accept it. Accept the help. That's the way we should be. That's the way our society should be.

Erin: Yeah. You are not an inconvenience.

Kelly: No, that was the word I was looking for. Inconvenience. You are not an inconvenience. They wouldn't offer it if they didn't want to do it.

Erin: Absolutely.

Kelly: Yeah.

Erin: What a great way to end the episode. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Kelly.

Kelly: This was so much fun.

Erin: Yes, 100%. And I look forward to many future conversations. Come on. Anytime you want. Anytime you have something new going on. Kelly, do you have some kind of inspirational quote that you'd like to share for the end of the podcast?

Kelly: I do. I don't know who said this, but you are what you eat. So don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake.

Erin: Don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake. I love that. Words to live by. Awesome. See you soon, Kelly.

Kelly: All right, talk to you later.

Erin: Thanks again to Kelly Ryan for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. Don't forget to check out Kelly at nerdmomnutrition.com. And on RogersTV on YouTube at Nerd Mom's Kitchen Adventures.

We are gearing up for an amazing season two of weirdos in the workplace, where we're inviting 30 professional problem solvers on the podcast to solve real world problems. And we're gathering those stories from our listeners, just like you and our clients on the challenging scenarios that they're encountering as we speak in real time. If you're looking for help, everything from lead generation to grant writing to preventing legal challenges to retaining your diverse team, to time management to succession planning and whatever else is out there for business owners and business leaders in the workplace, we'll have you covered. Send in your stories to erin@positivist.ca, or you can visit positivist.ca and fill in a form.

That's all for today. As always, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Erin: Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, where we explore how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose leads to more impactful and visionary. And I'm super, super happy to have Robert Smith here with me today. Say hello, Robert.

Robert: Hello, everybody. I'm really pleased to be here. Thank you so much Erin.

Erin: Awesome. So, Robert Smith, not that Robert Smith, this Robert Smith is a respected author, creativity professor, founding member of the RGD, which is the registered graphic designers of Canada, owner of Greenmelon, a creative branding agency. And Robert, you have some very impressive clients, including RCMP, the Mint, Warner Brothers, DC Comics, Farm Boy, and you're the author of Frankenstein, condition, and stop looking for zebras. And I was really excited to read this book here, stop looking for zebras. And I think it's amazing. So what are we going to talk about today?

Robert: Well, today, I think based on your podcast and the themes that you like to speak about, certainly close to my heart is creativity is a career, and creativity in the workplace is certainly something that we need more and more of these days. But it's harder and harder to define and to really grasp and have confidence.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, stay tuned, everybody. All right, we're back. So I'm going to start with what I think of your book, stop looking for zebras, because I read through it and it is a roller coaster. It's a roller coaster. And I really thought by the time I got to the end of it, it felt like a master class in building confidence as a human being. I'm a person who never quite fit in. And so I felt like you were speaking right to my soul.

Erin: So someone like me, from someone who's been through it already, how to gain confidence in yourself and that self mastery and that balance that we're all looking for, that's how it felt to me.

Robert: Excellent. Yeah. And I'm really glad about that. I mean, certainly as an author, you have intentions on what you want people to take away from the book. But the joy is always hearing the various interpretations over the different elements that spoke to different people. And that's one thing that I really enjoy and one thing that's been lovely about this book is that I am getting different things from different people, which is excellent. And I'm glad that it resonated with you. Certainly it is a roller coaster, and it's not a biography by any means.

Robert: It's just observations that I've had throughout my career in the creative industry. And just that realization when I turned 50 that I'm still doing this and I love it. And why because I have seen so many people, colleagues and people that I've worked with and past employees, and that. That really get disenchanted and in some cases, jaded about doing this. And again, I feel so very privileged to be doing this. And as is quoted in the book, after 30 years in the industry, I still get up in the morning energized and excited about what I do. And I want the same for you.

Erin: Yeah. And I feel like it's not just for creative or people who would maybe define themselves as creative people or having a creative career. I really feel like there's something for everyone in this book, and it's transferable to basically anyone, especially people, I think, who've kind of felt like they didn't maybe fit or belong or had a little bit of that rebelliousness inside of them.

Robert: Absolutely. Again, and you know what? Honestly, it's some of the baggage that we still carry with us. I know for myself, it's been my biggest barrier is high school and the experience I had in high school. And to this day, I can still see it creeping in. And writing a book is a good example of that. I still kind of laugh right now, thinking what my english teachers might think. So we get these perceptions that aren't reality, that I can't possibly write a book. And nothing could be further from the truth, really.

Erin: I think that's the rebelliousness in you, though. It's like if someone tells you something that you can't do something, you're going to try to do it, probably 100%.

Robert: That's what my career, I think, is pretty much. I've done some pretty crazy things, and they all stem from that. Oh, yeah. Okay, watch me kind of situation. The last quote I have in the book really is something that resonates with me so much, and almost daily is 20 years from now, you'd be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the things that you did do. And I feel very strongly about that. We all have those moments where we've had an idea or a concept for something, and whether it's a movie story or a book or a product or something, and then inevitably, you're going to see it pop up at some point and think, oh, that was my idea. I totally could have done that.

Robert: But we got in our way and didn't, and somebody else did. And that's the difference.

Erin: Yeah. How do you get motivated to do something like that? That's so outside your comfort zone.

Robert: Yeah. Well, again, part of, as a designer or creative director, I enjoy most is the fact that I'm constantly challenged every client, even though I may have done a winery before or a food product before, each client represents a new opportunity to learn and to dive in. And one thing I found is that when you do your research, when you do your thinking beforehand, the evidence, I'll call it, really presents itself. So there is no such thing as starting from a blank page, because your path is there. And it's just a matter of being observant and seeing those things and pulling out the really salient points or the really interesting things. As the whole point of learning is immersing ourself into something that we don't know about. And in doing that, we've got to simplify it so that we understand it a little bit better. And then the extension of that as a career is then being able to amplify that to an audience.

Robert: And that's really what a lot of us, the value we bring is we bring in that naivete or the uncertainty or the unknown to learn. And for me, that's what I love, is that there's always something new and you can get in your way. I mean, a perfect example of that is a winery I'm working with right now, and it's also a functioning farm. They've got tons of animals, like, they've got peacocks, and they've got horses and pigs and all of this stuff, plus this winery. And they're very enamored with their animals because they wander around the tasting room and that, so you can see all them, which is quite fun. But they were all about, we got to have the animals on our wine labels. And I'm like, I'll be damned if I'm putting barn animals, farm animals on a wine. There's no way, right? And that was my own.

Robert: I'm putting up a barrier, and guess what? I've got a whole line of wine with them, with animals on it. And it's the best labeling that I've done, and I'm so excited. I'm having so much fun doing it. But I put up my there, right?

Erin: Yeah. It's some things that trigger us or challenge us. If we can walk forward through it and push against it and kind of lean into that pressure point or that pain point, it ends up being the most awesome resolution or solution in the end. I used to have a boss who was like, we were constantly butting heads, right? Just like, either too similar or too different in certain ways or whatever. And I always thought, it's so cool how we can just butt heads and constantly be at each other, but then work through it, because we're both like those gritty, resilient type of people. Work through it to the point where we had an aha moment, and all of a sudden we realized that we could both get what we want and create something that was actually way better than either of us could have thought of before. So, yeah, it's really interesting. So I expected humor through this book because you seem kind of funny.

Erin: And, I mean, it's. It is very funny, actually. The book is, there's a lot of kind of, like, subtle sarcasm, and you don't take yourself seriously at all. But it was counterpointed or counterbalanced by so much emotion, like being labeled a disruptive child. That's painful. Talking about the complexity of navigating a career, particularly a creative career, and talking about kind of the five stages of grief. You talk about insecurity, you talk about guilt and the roller coaster of emotions when the creative process, the highs and lows, and creating something from nothing. I wasn't expecting so much emotion.

Erin: So how did that. I'm curious about your emotional evolution over the years through your career.

Robert: Well, I think, again, when you're a designer or writer or even if we go into the fine arts, and that you really are exposing yourself to criticism, and it's become more and more and more as we've moved along and leans quite heavily into the negative a lot of times. And so it's a difficult path, and it's rife with emotion, and you can't go through it and talk about it as a career without involving emotion. I've been teaching for over 20 years, part time college level to third year graduating students. And that's really what I lean into with them, is, okay, you've learned all this stuff, right? Like, you know, illustrator, you know how to layout, you know typography, you know, color theory. This is all cookbook stuff. But what's missing from that is the heart, right? And that's what makes a wonderful meal. It's not just the mechanics. You've got to recognize.

Robert: It didn't appear in zebras. But I wrote an article called positively negative. Whole idea of that is you can't understand hot unless you experience cold. You can't experience sour or understand sour until you've experienced sweet. And therefore, in life, you can't experience true joy if you haven't experienced true negativity or sadness. And so, again, I think that's living life in plateaus and not flatlining your way through and that is one thing I talk about in the book, is the idea of being tragically competent. And I think that translates into life, not just a job. But my point with the job was, if you're just showing up and dialing it in, you've become tragically competent.

Robert: And some people say, well, competent, that's a good thing, isn't it? Well, no, because that means you're doing the minimum. You are doing what's on the paper, and the rest is, well, that's not in my job description, or you're not putting more into it. And when you spend so many hours just to dial something in, it's tragic. And that's why I call it tragically competent, because life should be more, including a job, more about passion. And like you just said, debate is a good part. Right. And that's bringing passion, standing for a point. And in some cases, I'm designing something for a client, and they're trying to pull me in a different direction.

Robert: It's like, okay, the bottom line is my job is to give you what you need, not what you want, and what's going to happen. And I tell my clients this as well. So, look, I'm going to make you uncomfortable. That's my job. Because up till now, you've been comfortable and you've identified that it's not working, so you've hired me. So if I'm not making you uncomfortable, if I'm not taking you into an area of discomfort, then I'm not doing my job and you're wasting your money.

Erin: Yeah. I tell my clients something the same similar. It's like my job isn't to make your life easier right now. It's to make you think so that down the road you'll be really proud of whatever we've created.

Robert: And that comes down to voice and all of these things. Emotion is really important. And I think as well, again, I'm at an age now where it's about mentoring and it's about passing on of knowledge and things like that. And for me, leaning into those things and being transparent is really important. So there's one part that I still kind of like where I talk about all the awards that I'd won and all the acclaim and articles and books and all of that stuff, but I wouldn't let myself translate that into personal wealth, into money. And not that's what this is about. But when you're talking about a career, another quote, if it's not making money, it's an expensive hobby. But my barriers from high school and that of, well, I'm only this good, I'm not going to go further that I found myself sabotaging.

Robert: Whenever that acclaim hit, I'd sabotage it. And it's only later in life that I recognized what I was doing.

Erin: So do you embrace the celebrations now?

Robert: Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:
Yeah, absolutely.

Robert: And you also have to recognize, too, that sometimes you're going to be your only cheerleader for sure. Right? So you've got to get comfortable with that. You can't wait for other people to give you the accolades or to recognize. And some of the stuff that I've done, I take great pride in. And it did what it needed to do for the client, but I didn't get chocolates or anything sent to me by the client or anything like that. And not that I was expecting it, but it's important to take those moments back and go, I really nailed that with this problem, and I just took it to another level and recognize that in yourself and not wait for other people, for sure.

Erin: So you do write a lot about independence, setting boundaries, forging a path. And I think that that's kind of instinctive for a lot of creative people, a lot of people who kind of live a little bit outside of the norms, the normal paths. What you were saying before, I struggled with that, too, was learning how to celebrate, learning that you could be in the spotlight, even just like starting this podcast was like, wildly outside my comfort zone. Like, wildly outside my comfort zone. It was just literally a whim, something that I did one day because it's been something I'd been wanting to do for a long time. Right. Probably similar to when maybe you wrote your first book. I would think you just do it one day.

Erin: But the way that I got out of the path was by eventually getting a lot of community around me. And I'm curious what your thoughts are around community and what you think about that.

Robert: Community is very important, and it's something, again, I do talk a lot about independence because I feel that so many people out there are losing self identity and not really digging into what makes them unique and offering that outward. And so I think that's something that's really important, something I'm writing right now called becoming 3d or three dimensional, and that's missing in job. I get so many people emailing me and ask me, here's my resume, and here's my website, and it doesn't seem to be working. It's like, because it's a resume and it's a website, you're two dimensional, you're flat you're expected, right?

Erin: Yeah.

Robert: Yourself three dimensional in some way. What makes you different? So people can look all the way around. It's not just flat again, that comes from community. For me, my community has been very important because they're incredibly supportive and they're a great sounding board. Book that we see now. Stop looking for zebras is the result of not just me writing in a shed somewhere and then publishing it. It's gone through numerous iterations, and the iterations, I think, made it much better because of the feedback and the thoughts. And 100%, the book is infinitely better because of my collaborator, the illustrator shell, in this case.

Robert: Right. I'm proud of the book. So in my opinion, it was a good book to start with. But then when Shell got involved, I had a couple of illustrations that I knew specifically what I wanted and I told her and the style, and then she sent them back. Like, these are great. I don't know if I got busy or something happened. I said, anyways, here's this chapter. I need an illustration for it.

Robert: And what she came back with, I'm like, I could have never thought that up. And it's brilliant. So from that point on, I think she'd only done about three illustrations for me. From that point on, I just would feed her text, say, you're going, because it just made it so much better.

Erin: Yeah, people make you better, for sure. Have you had any leaders or colleagues that you worked with in the past that just changed the trajectory of or give you an aha moment in your life that you can recall that's vivid to you?

Robert: Well, I mean, it goes as far back as high school again, just really barely, barely graduating. And I had a guidance counselor who knew that I could draw and listen to the fine arts and said, oh, you should be a graphic designer. I'm like, that's awesome. What's a graphic designer? And so I remember vividly he brought out this book and flipped through and started showing me what graphic design was. And I'm like, this is a job. And he's like, yeah, you get paid to do this. He's like, yeah. And that was a turning point for me.

Robert: So moving out of Ottawa, born and raised in Ottawa, but moved out of Ottawa to go to school. And suddenly from a barely passing student to a plus on the president's list and all of those things, wow. I found my calling, but it was because of him. Mr. Bell, if you're out know, guiding.

Erin: Me in that, I have a question. Do you think disruption is ever going to go out of style?

Robert: I hope not. I don't think it will. It's only been getting more and more and more. And certainly that's just a reaction to the times we live in right now, which is the information age and again, the technology age. With AI and things like that coming in, it's becoming more important to differentiate, to be unique, to stand out in the job market as a company, as a product, as an author. When I wrote Frankenstein, I looked at the self help section at a local bookstore and it was like this massive, massive area of books. Why would you write another book? To fit in this noise, right? But it's because of voice. You may be saying the same thing, but in a tone that resonates with a certain group of people.

Robert: So it's no longer the masses, it's more now finding your people or finding your customers or clients people, because you can be relevant to a smaller group and still have a viable business or message. And going with zebras, working with my publisher, they're like, well, we got to niche down because I felt that. I'm glad to hear that you felt that it was not just for designers or whatever.

Erin: No, not at all.

Robert: That was the hope. But my publisher is like, well, no, but you got to define, otherwise nobody's going to find you. So that's the whole thing with this, is finding that hook, whatever it is, that will connect with people and it's disruption. So sometimes it's provocative, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's wacky, sometimes it's witty. It's just knowing the tone.

Erin: Yeah, for sure. In terms of the creative careers, there's been quite a bit of disruption with respect to AI or the fear around AI, or people having premonitions around AI, how that's going to turn out. What's your thoughts on all this?

Robert: Am I allowed to swear?

Erin Patchell: Yes, you can.

Robert: AI is basically shit in, shit out. I like to use an example as 3d printing. Okay? If you've got a shitty file 3d printer, you're going to end up with a blob at the end. You start off with the best file and put it through the 3d printer, it's going to come out lovely, but it's still not done. You've got to sand it down, you've got to carve off the rough edges. You got to paint it and polish it right. So really all AA is doing is building in some efficiencies. And for people who think that it's going to replace the creative process or critical thinking, they're mistaken.

Robert: What they're going to get out the other end again. If you don't have a concept, an idea at the beginning, it's not going to improve at the end. And that's been true forever. Whether it's drawing again, if you don't have a good idea of what you're painting or an inspiration behind your painting, it's just going to be Walmart art regardless. For me, I think AI is great for agencies and things like that because there's certain things, tasks that it takes over for us, like building personas and doing research and things like that. And even at that, I've done some tests on it and there's one thing in particular. It came back with information that was completely wrong.

Erin: Oh, yeah. It can be very creative with the truth.

Robert: That's it. Right. And it's the same thing again with Wikipedia. People use it as the truth, the 100% truth. And it's not. Take it with a grain of salt.

Erin: Yeah. Do you think it is actually going to end up changing the way jobs are either designed, like creative jobs are designed or valued?

Robert: Yeah. And I've already experienced this and that. What we're seeing is people like myself in the creative. And again, it might be writing, it might be, but in the case of design, we're getting involved more at the strategic level now, the executional level, because that's where AI and technology is taking over, is the execution of things. And I'm 100% happy with that because that means I get more time on the strategy, on the creative side of things and then it gets executed. I'm happy to have clients execute things and move them forward as long as it's within the guidelines that I've set. So I think it's a great addition. I'm a huge fan, and it's funny you wouldn't get that reading the book, but I'm a huge fan of technology.

Robert: I've had every iPhone generation, I've got Apple all over here. I've got Bluetooth speakers. Like, I love what that brings. I love that I pick up my phone and I can turn on my record player, my speakers, and start a record. Love that. But it doesn't take away from human experiences because ultimately what we do is we're communicating from person to person, human to human. Computers and programs don't understand that. They don't know that.

Erin: No. A computer can't replace a human's intuition.

Robert: No, exactly.

Erin: Yeah. No, not at all. At least not for a long time. Yeah. Definitely longer than I'm going to be around but what would you want to tell younger people who are coming up with AI? They're growing up with AI. We know that AI is going to change jobs. What would you want to tell them about what their mindset going through this?

Robert: Yeah. So I think, again, it's a progression. It's a constant learning as you get out of high school into college or university or just finding a path is finding yourself. You can't promote yourself until you know yourself, right? It's up to finding yourself based on what is around you or what other people are seeing. It's what is my voice? What do I know? What is important to me? And then you're able to then be external, but you can't do that until you know yourself. So experience creativity or what you love through others eyes, other practitioners and a myriad, because as you go through that, you'll say, oh, I love how they did that, but I don't agree with that stuff. So you'll take what you love from them and something else, and eventually, as you practice, as you move forward, you'll find your voice. And that's where things really come together is when you find your voice.

Robert: But don't lose sight of your hands. Like sketching, playing with play doh, building shit with Lego, all that stuff. That's important. It really, really is. And there's such a push on learning coding and technology and stuff like that, which. But you know, for example, a three year graphic design program, if you spend two and a half years studying technology, the month you graduate, you're out of date because there's been updates, there's been new, and suddenly, like I'm saying, suddenly now AI. So I've got a class last year and the year before who know indesign and illustrator and all these programs inside and out and then suddenly this happens. But if you had spent three years learning mindset, learning thought process, problem solving, improvisational acting, these things, you're going to come out that third year way better off because you can adapt and you can change and you're not so structured, for sure.

Erin: Yeah, I completely agree with that. You become a professional problem solver. Yes, that's right.

Robert: And you're not stuck. I do get some clients that know, actually quite a few that we need you to come in and fix our website. Like, okay, what happened? Well, I hired a web company and I said, okay.

Erin: Oh, yeah, that's your problem.

Robert: And there's nothing wrong. I love web company. I work with them. Right. But when they say a website, they go for the deliverable. Well, that company is excellent at making an SEO friendly, functioning website that is quick and all of these wonderful things speak to anybody because that's not the web company's job. So that's where, again, that deeper understanding is really key.

Erin: 100%. So what is next for you, sir?

Robert: What's next for me?

Erin: Are you going to write another book? You said you were writing another book.

Robert: I'm going to write a screenplay. I want to do a movie.

Erin: Oh, cool.

Robert: But that's long term. Actually, what I'm working on right now is a book called three cushions in a blanket.

Erin: Three cushions in the blanket. Okay. Tell me why.

Robert: For a space to be creative. And it's about how there's so many architects, musicians, writers who have built these sheds or these cabins in the woods, and that they go to to be creative. And you have people who are what I call nomadic creatives, and they go to Starbucks and the library and things like that, but they go away from the house to create. And so I started all off with, remember as kids, all we needed was three cushions and a blanket, and we'd build a fort, and that was our space. We'd bring in a book or a game, sex. And no adults were allowed where there were no rules and we were in charge. And that just changes as we go through, but we lose sight of that. And that's something that I've been very blessed with in creating both my books, is that I've had that, what's called the third space.

Erin: Right, right.

Robert: We've got home, we've got work, and then we've got the place to be creative, the third space. And so that's what I originally called it, the third space. But then when I suddenly went, oh, my God, we did this as kids. That's much more interesting.

Erin: Yeah. And the third space, if we're going to go that far, if it's a fort in your house, the third space can be anywhere, technically, but you have.

Robert: To mentally brand it as that. People at work, at their dining room table, struggle because ten or 15 minutes in, they're standing up and they're walking around. And why? Because that space in their mind has been positioned as a place where we eat and we chat, and now it's quiet and there's no food. Your brain doesn't know what to do with that space. Whereas your office in the house, where there's nothing else in there, just close the door, your brain knows what it's supposed to be doing there subliminally.

Erin: Right, right.

Robert: And that's important. So that's right now.

Erin: I love that. Yeah. And create a team, Norm, around that in your family. My kids know that if I'm on the couch and I've got blankets piled up to here all around me, and I've got my computer here and I'm writing, don't talk to me

Robert: You're in the zone. Don't talk to me.

Erin: Yeah, exactly.

Robert: That is my third point on the op. Or a piece of paper that said no, and I taped it to the door, so when I closed it, whatever. No, that's funny.

Erin: I'm going to use that one, too. That's really great. Awesome. Thanks for joining me, Robert.

Robert: This was wonderful. Thank you so much. It was great.

Erin: I feel like we could have kept talking, but try to keep it to 30, 35 minutes if we can. But you'll have to come back maybe and talk about three cushions in a blanket. We'll have to do a part two, definitely.

Erin: Thanks again to Robert Smith for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. To sum up this episode, I'm going to quote the last page from Robert's new book, Stop Looking For Zebras. "Well, fellow rabble rousers and malcontents, it's time to get to work. Our time is now. It's not the meek who will inherit the earth. It's the disruptors." And from Robert's favorite quote from Mark Twain, "20 years from now, you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do." That's all for today.

Erin: Stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist, cast, ca, or on most social media platforms at positivist group. Have a beautiful day at work.

--- 

Find Robert Smith:

Think-Smith - https://www.robertbsmith.ca/

Greenmelon Inc. - https://greenmelon.ca/

Amazon: Buy Stop Looking For Zebras

Hello and welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast where we dive into bringing authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose into the workforce so that weirdos like me and maybe like you can be free to unleash our talents in the world and safe enough to learn how to learn faster. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and it's a brand new year. Welcome to 2024.

And today we are talking about the importance of pauses, reflections, and celebrations in our lives and our workspaces. Let's start with the present moment that we're sharing together. It's as we approach the end of the year, it's crucial to look back and reflect on our journey. Reflection is not just about reminiscing, it's a powerful tool for growth, according to a study by Harvard Business School.

Setting aside 15 minutes, only 15 minutes at the end of the day to reflect on what was learned will boost your performance and impact your future success. So let's use these moments to assess our victories, our challenges, and the wisdom that we've gained. You've probably all heard that journaling is a great exercise and sometimes life changing for the people who believe in it. But writing isn't for everyone. So I'm going to suggest some alternatives that have similar benefits in terms of self reflection, mindfulness, and emotional processing. So taking voice recordings or voice to text notes instead of writing is great for a lot of people. If you're able to kind of talk stream of consciousness, and even if you're not great at it, it's a skill. So you can actually start.

I remember when I first started doing voice recordings, I absolutely sucked at it. I had to pause it every couple of seconds. I was constantly rewriting it. And then as I got used to the process, it became easier and easier and my thoughts flowed a lot more smoothly. Mind mapping, collaging, or vision boarding. So creating like a visual map that represents your thoughts, feelings, experiences and desires. And I love virtual whiteboards like Miro or mural for this. But I know my sister loves to use paper and cut things out of magazines and do a whole vision board for every year, and I think that's a great way to do it as well.

So you do you walking or movement meditation is fantastic. Taking a mindful walk or doing movement exercises like yoga or Tai Chi can be very reflective. Blogging, music, drawing, building lego or a puzzle. Anything that can help you slow down, focus and ponder. But however you choose to do it, I would definitely encourage you to think about the significant moments from this year. What are you proud of? What are you avoiding? What brings you joy? What grounds you? Who are the people who influenced you this year? Are you going in the direction you want to be going? What will you do differently? How have your moments in 2023 shaped you, for better or worse? And reflections are really important. But just as important, or probably even more important, are celebrations. Celebrations in life or in the workplace are not just about acknowledging the big wins, although that's always nice, too.

They're really about recognizing the small steps in the effort and the journey. And I have to admit, for most of my life, until very recently, I have been literally, like, allergic to celebrations. I didn't like them. I didn't like hugs. I didn't like to accept affection. I shuddered at the thought of being the center of attention. It was a couple of years pre pandemic, so what was it? Probably 2018 or so when I began to consciously try to change this behavior. Because I've been like this my entire life, I wanted to know what it felt like to not avoid something that other people seemed to take great pleasure in.

So we took a family vacation to Mexico back in 2018 with the three kids. And there was something about the warmth of the people and the relaxation of the environment where I felt safe. We're near big bodies of water that always makes me feel happy. Something about the environment triggered something in me. And when I came home, I gave my longtime friend Sarah, who now works with positivist group, a hug. And she will tell you this. She literally thought I was dying. This woman has known me over well.

Now, it's been a long time, but at that time, she'd known me, I think, for like 20 years and never witnessed me willingly give a hug. It was like a hostage situation every time someone tried to give me a hug. So she thought I was dying. And I've come a long way since then. By the way, I like hugs now. I'm a hugger. I know it sounds crazy, just these past few months as well. So in know, speaking of evolution, these past few months talk about getting outside my comfort zone.

I've been training to become an officiate with an organization called Humanist Canada, and this training has profoundly deepened my consciousness of the importance of celebrations. Milestones are important. We humans tend to be forgetful unless we cement something into place in our memories. Most people don't have a space these days anymore outside of work and home, to spend time consistently. It used to be people attended a church or other community involved in the community in other ways. But these days it's changed a lot people are more isolated than they've ever been. And our holidays have evolved into celebrations of consumerism rather than celebrating anything truly meaningful in our lives. Even though a lot of the time we do try, I think a lot of us recognize this and we do try to roll it back every year and try to focus on the things that are important, but not enough.

Heck, in my family we hardly celebrate birthdays. It's just not something that we've ever really been interested in. And we're all kind of similar to me. I'm like the prototypical person in my family. But this year I'm sure that they're all going to love this. But I have vowed to change this and I'm going to roll it back. It's going to take more energy, for sure. But I'm convinced that the energy I spend on planning and celebrating the people that I love is going to transmute and come back to me and come back to us in the form of memories.

And I'd encourage you to entrench those milestones at work and at home with a celebration. Even if it's something simple or unique. Find ways to build new traditions and rituals into your life. And to you folks who are already doing this, well, good for you. Honestly, it's something that I think that we've started to lose. So that you're kind of like one of those anchors in the storm. I think that that's really important and continue doing the amazing work that you're doing. So when we create new traditions, celebrations and rituals through the lens of inclusion, things look a little bit different than they used to.

In recent years, we've witnessed a growing recognition and incorporation of diverse cultural practices into various aspects of our society, and especially in the workplace. This change is part of a broader movement towards inclusivity, respect for diversity, and a deeper understanding of history, tradition and cultural competency. One such practice is the indigenous land acknowledgment. This is a new custom for us, us white colonial folk that is becoming more mainstream in progressive business circles and involves making a statement at the beginning of events, gatherings, or on websites or corporate documents acknowledging the traditional indigenous inhabitants of our land. And it's more than a formality. It is intended to be a profound expression of respect, a step towards reconciliation and a reminder of a long history that predates our modern institutions. And rituals like this exist to help us form our living memories and establish our values into actions. In the decisions that we make, they remind us that we are part of a larger, diverse and historically rich community.

And around the world we're seeing this isn't just indigenous land, acknowledgments or other types of indigenous cultural practices. We're observing all types of cultural practices and celebrations from lunar New Year, Diwali, Juneteenth, celebrating pride month. These practices are bringing to light the diverse stories of our colleagues, and incorporating these celebrations are incredibly enriching. They offer opportunities for education and sharing experiences, building community and belonging. And when an organization takes the time to honor and celebrate different cultures, it sends a powerful message that you are seen and valued and integral as part of this tapestry. Remember, every thread in this tapestry adds strength, beauty and depth. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. This is an and, not an or.

And the third thing that I'm going to chat about today is the art of pausing. In our constant hustle, the art of pausing is often forgotten. Yet it is in these pauses that we find clarity and rejuvenation. Celebrations, rituals are part of the pause. So are as are our reflections. So let's practice this together. Take a deep breath, let go of the hustle, and ask yourself, what do I need right now? Do you need a break? Do you need a moment of gratitude? Do you need a distraction? Do you need silence? Do you need companionship? What do you need? Just breathe. As we close today's episode, I'll leave you with a thought by author and philosopher Alain De Botton.

The largest part of what we call personality is determined by how we've opted to defend ourselves against anxiety and sadness. So remember, it's okay to pause and breathe amidst it all. Thank you for joining me today on weirdos in the workplace. I hope in 2024 we can carry these lessons of reflection, celebration and pauses into our lives. Don't forget, we have four more episodes left in season one, ending January 31, each packed with insights and surprises. Stay tuned, stay weird, and remember, don't stay out of trouble.

[outro]

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist.ca, or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup. Have a beautiful day at work.

Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. I'm your favorite weirdo, Erin Patchell today we're taking a moment to reflect on the incredible journey we've had in 2023 and what lies ahead for 2024. And I am so excited. Stay tuned.

Many of you are taking time off with your families for the holidays and celebrating. But even if you were grinding it out, I hope you are finding some time to sprinkle in moments of joy and make memories. I know for many of you you might be struggling with isolation, loneliness, grief, or apathy, and your feelings are valid. And while this year I'm feeling pretty good, I have been there so many times and I hope you'll accept this virtual hug from me, my friend. But taking stock celebrating, reflecting and building community isn't just for this time of the year. It tends to highlight, like the holiday season tends to highlight and magnify what we do have, what we don't have, and what we want. I try to think about gratitude for what I have juxtaposed with the understanding that there are many people out there who don't have and might want what I have. And that thought motivates me to find ways to create these opportunities.

And I'd really encourage everyone, no matter how much you think you have or how much you think you don't have, to really focus on the positive, focus on the gratitude for what you do have. And I hope that that also motivates you to do good in the world as well. But 2023 has been quite the year, hasn't it? We've navigated through some challenging times. We've also witnessed incredible innovation and resilience in the workplace. It's really hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that AI has really only been in our lives for a year. This year we've covered in weirdos of the workplace. We've covered a wide array of topics, from fostering inclusive cultures to adapting to hybrid work models, to becoming more disciplined with our habits and so much more. And the amazing part is we still have five more episodes left in season one, wrapping up January 31.

We have some really cool people coming on the show, and the next five episodes really are designed not just to reflect on the year gone by, but also to help prepare us for the exciting journey ahead. It is going to be weird and wonderful in 2024. I think it's going to be a great year, and I hope it's a great year for you. But that's not all. I am super excited to announce season two of weirdos in the workplace will kick off April 3, and we have something special lined up. We are inviting 30 professional problem solvers to the podcast, every person ready to tackle specific challenges that employers face in their businesses. These are real issues given to us by you, our clients, and our listeners. So make sure you send those in, continue to send those in.

And season two is really all about practical and tactical solutions. So whether it's grappling with a remote team management, understanding the nuances of mental health in the workplace, or innovative approaches to employee engagement, we're going to cover it all. Our guests are seasoned prose, from organizational psychologists to hr gurus to tech innovators. And each episode will be a deep dive into a particular challenge, offering insights, strategies, and, most importantly, solutions. Because we need solutions before we wrap up today's episode, I want to take just a brief moment to celebrate the weirdness, the innovation, and the failures that teach us and the successes that drive us. So here's to the weirdos, the ones just like you who think outside the box, challenge the status quo, and who make the workplace not just a good place to work, but a space to grow, learn, thrive, and even heal. So stay tuned for our upcoming episodes as we conclude season one and get ready for an even more exhilarating season two starting April 3. And always remember, stay weird, stay wonderful, and never, ever stay out of trouble.

This is Erin Patchell signing off. Catch you in 2024.

You if you like this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at Positivist.ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup.

Have a beautiful day at work.

Erin: Welcome to weirdos in the workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose and the transformational effect that these can have on our world of work. I'm so excited to welcome back Eleonore Eves. Hello, Eleonore.

Eleonore: Hello, my dear. Thank you for having me back.

Erin: I'm super excited to have you back. If you remember Eleonore, or joined us a couple of months ago talking all about executive presence. Eleonore is a professional, certified executive coach and the founder of Eaves Coaching. And we'll let you know later on how to get a hold of Eleonore, but today we're chatting about McKinsey's Women in the Workplace report for 2023. I believe it's the 9th year that they've put out this report, and someday I will go back and look at all of them and figure out how things have evolved. But they interviewed over 27,000 employees at more than 276 participating organizations. So it's pretty crazy.

And we are going to talk about. We're going to break down the four myths. So there are four myths that they have discussed in this report, and Eleonore and I are going to chat about them. Right, Eleonore?

Eleonore: Can't wait.

Erin: Awesome. Stay tuned.

[intro music]

Erin: Let's get started. What did you think about this report, Eleonore? If you had to kind of sum up your feelings about it?

Eleonore: I actually liked that it addressed a lot of common myths. Right. The four big ones. Because especially with an organization with the clout that McKinsey has, it's lovely to be able to refer back to something like this. Actually, you know, here's the proof. Because a lot of times it just seems like we are making it up. So it's lovely that now there is hard proof.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely. It does seem like there are a lot of preconceived notions about women in the workplace and inclusion and the different metrics that are involved. And I think that, like you say, having a reputable organization like McKinsey kind of benchmarking this, is pretty cool. So I'll just. I'll read out the four myths just to get just at the start, and then we can kind of go through them one by one. But myth number one is women are becoming less ambitious. So if you've heard that before, let it be known, it is a myth.

Erin: Let it be known! Myth number two, the biggest barrier to women's advancement is the glass ceiling. Interesting. What is the reality? Myth number three, microaggressions have a micro impact. Okay. And myth number four, it's mostly women who want and benefit from flexible work. All right, let's dig in.

Eleonore: I love this myth. Sorry, I'm just going to dive right into this one.

Eleonore: Yeah, it is probably one of the ones that has aggravated me the absolute most for the longest time, is, well, women are just not trying hard enough. Women are not ambitious enough. There are enough seats, and especially in this day and age, they just don't want it enough. This one has been driving me mental for quite a long time, especially since every woman I coach is far more ambitious and driven than most people I have ever come across. So it has nothing to do with that.

Erin: 100% agreed. In fact, you hear about the mass exodus of women in leadership positions in the workplace, right?

Eleonore: Yes.

Erin: Where do you think they're going?

Eleonore: They're starting their own businesses.

Erin: Starting their own company.

Eleonore: And the proof is in the pudding here, right? I mean, the number of female founded organizations that thrive, that yield better results as far outpaces that of male dominated or male founded ones. Why is that? Because women are clearly ambitious. We meet our goals and we are driven. So to say that they're not ambitious, that's just crazy.

Erin: I would say women are ambitious, but they're probably at least as frustrated as they are ambitious.

Eleonore: 100%. Right. I mean, I, for one, know that I started my own business because I am ambitious, I am driven, and I realize that I can have far greater impact outcomes and even increase my financial earnings by being self employed. So if I'm going to put blood, sweat, and tears into my line of work, which I will do because I am incredibly hardworking, I would like to see something for it that's not crazy. I don't think that's crazy. I don't think that is in any way, shape, or form a negative trait. We applaud men for that. So why wouldn't I do the same thing for my own business?

Erin: Yeah. The article says that nine in ten women under the age of 30 want to be promoted to the next level, and three in four aspire to become senior leaders. Those are astronomical numbers.

Eleonore: Exactly. And I also love that they also broke it down into their workplaces. Whether they are remote, hybrid, or on site, regardless of the actual physical working location, women are still ambitious. Women are still looking for that next promotion, that next leveling up. It doesn't matter. So even tying it into if a woman works from home, if she's working remotely or hybrid, then she's not as dedicated or as driven as one who goes into the office, that's just plain old line. It's a myth.

Erin: Yep. Absolutely. And the article also goes to state, know the flexibility of remote work is supporting women's ambition. Have you seen that also in terms of working with your clients, Eleonore?

Eleonore: Absolutely right. And I know they go into it a little bit further on as to that idea of burnout, right? But when you look at what it does in terms of flexibility for your mental health and your ability to actually work when you are more at your prime, it just makes sense. I, for one, do my best work very late at night. That's just the type of person I am. If I was to go into an office during the daytime, you wouldn't get the best of.

Erin: Did this. We actually created team charter at positivist group, which is my company, that literally says, if you get an email at night, it's because we feel inspired to work at night or motivated to work at night. It's not because you don't have to respond to that email. We are each in charge of our own schedules. We get to work when we can work and when we're inspired to work and when we do our best work, obviously, if we have client meetings and stuff like that, work has to get done when it gets done. But outside of the meetings that are kind of baked into our calendars, we work wherever we want, whenever we want. And that is, I think, that a lot of people, eventually employees, I hope, will be attracted to that as well.

Eleonore: I hope so, too. And, I mean, I think it goes into two critical things, like you mentioned right now, which are burnout, as well as that emotional intelligence factor. Right. So two of my friends that I also think you should speak to on your podcast, Lydia DeFrancesco, and, you know, they both talk about this, of what leads to burnout and what is actual emotional intelligence of a leader, getting the best out of your teams is a smart move. So whatever that looks like, right. In this day and age, especially with the different types of technology available and different time zones that we work in, it makes less and less sense to necessarily be stuck to a rigid structure.

Erin: Yeah, but it does mean that we all have to be responsible for ourselves and our own welfare as well, in a way. Right. We have to know when to draw the boundaries and not get drawn into that culture of. What am I trying to say? Like, that hustle culture, like wanting to kind of one up the one upmanship. Right. It's like I don't have to work just because someone else is working at night.

Eleonore: Exactly. And again, as you said, it's about that culture. Right. What does the organizational culture look like?

Erin: Yeah. And that leads us right into the second myth, which is the biggest barrier to women's advancement is the glass ceiling, aunt. Wrong. The broken rung is the greatest obstacle women face on the path to senior leadership.

Eleonore: Absolutely right.

Erin: Frustration.

Eleonore: Right. Frustration.

Erin: This is where I see this all the time.

Eleonore: Absolutely. I mean, if we don't have that pipeline of talent, what do we expect? People need to be able to climb up the corporate ladder, otherwise, there's no chance. I was very glad that they also discussed the bias. Right. So when one is doing an annual performance review, looking at actually going into the details of why one needs or what the rationale is for giving a person a promotion or for not giving them their percentages for a pay increase, right. A lot of us have worked for for profit corporations where your annual bonus structure is heavily tied to that below a certain percentage. I mean, you're losing money working there, right? You're a pioneer. It has to keep up with cost of living and national inflation rates.

Eleonore: And so if it's not doing that, what is the justification for that? It cannot be biased.

Erin: Why do you think women aren't being promoted, even though, because of the previous myth we busted there, that they desire advancement in the workplace?

Eleonore: I agree with what this report is saying in terms of bias, and especially on page, I want to say, 18 or 19, something like that. They do a really good job of providing a chart. And I know this leans more into the next section of microaggressions, but even just looking at the experiences. Right. So how safe does a person feel? And I know that's an overly simplified and utilized word, but when we look at what does a person need to do in order to, quote unquote, fit in to whatever that is, well, why does a person feel like they have to do that? Clearly because there's a culture or an expectation or a belief that who they are in and of themselves is not good enough.

Erin: The report lists a whole bunch of policies, programs and practices, like best practices in the workplace, that are demonstrated or executed by top performing companies. But yet, so we know what works. We know how to prevent these issues from happening. We know how to promote people. We know how to invest in talent management. We know exactly what we need to do. Why aren't companies doing it?

Eleonore: I think it depends on the company, right?

Erin: Yeah.

Eleonore: Ultimately, there are a number of factors. One could be that it's just lip service. Some companies are not actually invested in doing the hard work. Second reason would be it is hard work. It means actually acknowledging that there is a problem, which is very hard for a lot of people to do. I mean, even in our own lives, how often do we want to acknowledge that we are the prime culprit or cause of a particular problem? We try to find other reasons or justifications why somebody else aggrieved us or whatever. Right. Then comes another factor that even as best as some people, no matter how hard they work at this business, priorities sometimes overtake anything else.

Eleonore: So they want to do the right thing. They think they're going to do the right thing, but they just don't have the time. So again, we're looking at company culture, right? What are the priorities? How is it being measured? What are the benefits of doing the right thing versus what's going to boost your bonus at the end of the year? And then there's also the sad fact that for some people, I'm not going to say it's across the board, but obviously we are humans. We would be foolish not to admit this, but there's human factors at play. If someone is benefiting from a certain system, why would they change it?

Erin: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that one, that's for sure. I think that the business case, maybe we haven't developed a strong enough business case if many leaders have not implemented some of these tools, policies, practices because they believe that they have other priorities in the workplace that supersede these priorities. I just feel like maybe we haven't really done a good job of delivering why it's important to change and how it's going to actually benefit the organization.

Eleonore: Right. And I think it's not a one size fits all approach for that. Right. We have to do a better job of understanding why a person or an organization is saying no. What's driving that? And then addressing that individual specific need. Right. Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

All right, so the third myth, microaggressions have a micro impact. And the reality is microaggressions have a large and lasting impact on. I I'll say something. The other day that we were together, Eleonore, out the other night, and I noticed several microaggressions. I'm not even sure I didn't notice that if I had committed any myself. It's really hard to notice that in yourself, but you can sometimes start to notice them when it happens to other people. Yes. And I noticed a few things that it was starting to because I've been learning more about this lately.

Erin Patchell:

Right. And I'm not going to get specific. I'm going to be very general about this because I don't want to step on any toes, but I will step on toes just privately, for the record, just not publicly. We're going to step on some toes. It'll be on in a private way. But it kind of triggered me to want to include microaggression training in my onboarding, for example.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

I'm like, we need to get this out, the message out more.

Eleonore Eaves:

And I think you're spot on with that, and we see that a lot. Well, first of all, it bothers me too, if we just assume that it's only women who feel the compounding impact of microaggressions. Right. I mean, it happens to everyone and we see it across the board. But the fact that we're not even acknowledging that it is a compounding issue. You let one or two things slide, right. It's that bottling up. Eventually it just gets to you.

Erin Patchell:

It's like the death by 1000 cuts, right?

Eleonore Eaves:

100%, yeah.

Erin Patchell:

Right. And the hardest part about, I think delivering feedback around this is like, people don't. It's not conscious 99% of the time, almost never conscious. Nobody wants, maybe not nobody, but almost nobody wants to hurt another person. We don't want to hurt another person. And a lot of the times when I've seen microaggressions, often they think that they're delivering a compliment. Sometimes.

Eleonore Eaves:

Well, they think they're delivering a compliment. Or they feel very defensive in that state. Right.

Erin Patchell:

Or they're curious. People are curious sometimes, and they don't realize their curiosity is actually creating a very tangible discomfort for somebody.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right, exactly. Or it's passive aggressiveness. Or the individual feels like they have to defend themselves. And so it comes across as a microaggression because they want to get ahead of it. It's that defensive instinct. Right. And again, it all goes back down to the culture of the organization. What is tolerated, what isn't, how are things actually addressed? Is there a system in place to talk about things openly without feeling like as if the person who has been impacted by certain words now has to comfort and support the other person.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. I had a really stupid idea the other day when I was thinking I was in the shower, and I was thinking about this in the shower, because this is what I do. I think about work all the time because it's also my hobby. It's also my hobby now anyways. And this is a crazy idea, but I feel like you've done a lot more education in this area than I have. So tell me how bad this idea is on a scale of one to ten, one being not too crazy bad and ten being like, worst idea ever. Aaron, definitely don't ever do that. Don't implement that.

Erin Patchell:

Don't think about it ever again. Okay, we're going to actually put this out. A safe word. If you hear someone, what if we created, like, a game in our organization, gamify it. If someone says something that is a microaggression or you believe could be a microaggression, you have a safe word. So it pauses the conversation so we can talk about it. Could be like monkey. You know what I mean? Or whatever.

Erin Patchell:

Is that the stupidest idea you've ever heard? Because I'm just like, how do we all agree to pause the conversation in the moment and just say, hold on, I feel like we need to talk about what you just said, but in a way that's not super confronting and getting people's backs up and super defensive. You know what I mean? Aggressive. But in a way we can actually learn something. Right?

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah. I love that in that it brings in a little bit of humor. And as you know, I love anything for a good laugh. Right. I'm here for it. And if it makes a person stop and chuckle, sure. My only fear is then that, well, a couple of things. One would be that the person using that safe word is going to be mocked.

Eleonore Eaves:

But also, too, does it really still address the issue of the culture of the organization where they feel like they have to use a safe word versus being able to say, hey, you're out of line.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

And just calling it a. And again, you know, looking back at the McKinsey report, the number of times people have to change the way they speak in order to seem softer. Right. We've all done that. Any of us women in leadership positions have had to at times, at least even think about how we're coming across. I mean, I know I've been called a dictator and several other things, which I'm sure not allowed to say on your podcast.

Erin Patchell:

You're allowed to say anything you want for the record.

Eleonore Eaves:

But a lot of us do have to take that moment to stop and think about how the other side is perceiving our words. Is it going to resonate? We no longer have to just think about the quality of our data and what we're putting forward, but also to the tone. And so even on the next page on that report, they go into code switching. Yeah. I'm a black woman who definitely has to code switch a lot. I would be lying if I said I don't. Right?

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. As someone who is ADHD and on the autism spectrum, definitely, I know all about that as well. Like masking right, exactly. Trying to blend in, for sure. That is something that I experienced all the time, and I'm still trying to detangle, and I don't even know where my true self ends and begins. I don't even know who I am. I'm like. I am just an amalgamation.

Erin Patchell:

All the people that have come before me. I literally don't know.

Eleonore Eaves:

But, yeah.

Erin Patchell:

No, I mean, toning down what I say. I don't know if. I think we all have to be political in a certain context. Right?

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. What's the difference? Where's the line?

Eleonore Eaves:

Okay. I would say the line is not just in terms of being political, but sometimes I would really have to change the tone of my voice. You see how I've done that right now? This will be the Eleonore who delivers more of a harder dialogue.

Erin Patchell:

Okay. Yeah, I don't do that. I don't think I know how. I don't do that.

Eleonore Eaves:

No. Right? And even here, we're two strong feminists on this podcast. We have our own businesses. We're thriving. And yet how sad is it that even you said you don't even know where you begin and where you end. He's the real Aaron. So if it's that.

Erin Patchell:

Whoever you want me to be, Eleonore, whoever you want me to. Oh, but we. Can we stop saying that?

Eleonore Eaves:

Right. Yeah, but you get what I mean. So even for us, if this is something that's normal for us, what must it be like for people who are still working internally within organizations and who depend on that, needing to fit in for their mental security, for their financial security, to feed their kids, to put a roof over their heads, that could only be exhausting and mentally draining. That just makes no sense. And it's not just even a race based thing. Right? So this self shielding behavior that we're talking about, again, going back to the McKinsey report, even women with disabilities, 49% feel they have to tone down what they say to avoid being unlikable? 49%. Can you imagine?

Erin Patchell:

That's crazy. See, I want to create a company, and I hope that. And this is obviously, like, imperfectly, it's going to happen imperfectly. We're going to do better every day or try to do better every day at doing this. But it's like, create a company where our feelings and our big human emotions are okay. It's okay to say things poorly if the intention is good. Do you know what I mean? You don't have to find the right words for everything. Just say it, even if it sounds bad, if you don't have the right words.

Erin Patchell:

Just say it. It's better just to try to say something. I don't know.

Eleonore Eaves:

I would love to see what that world looks like where a person doesn't use that as an excuse for being a horrible human being.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. I've had lots of creative conflict in my life and at every organization where that was accepted, it was so much better. It was so much better because we could be ourselves. We could argue, we could say our piece, and then we could come to a solution together.

Eleonore Eaves:

But I think that's the real point. There is. Is it a creative conflict, or is it more of an abuse of power or a dominating situation? Right. You need to have a certain level of tension and disagreement in order to improve. No one is perfect from the get go. And there are things where, despite how great we might like to believe each of us are, we will consistently keep failing in different aspects of our life. This is just part of the experience of living. And if we don't, then that's also sad that we're not pushing ourselves.

Eleonore Eaves:

So conflict is okay. It's perfectly fine. But I would say. I would liken it more to, if you have a disagreement with someone you trust, let's say, like a friend, it's fine, because at the end of the day, okay, you might have that disagreement, and it feels horrible at that period of time and all of this, but you know you're still safe. You know the person isn't out to make you, let's say, without a job.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

You trust that you know that the person isn't out to attack you as an individual or looking for ways to see you fail. Just a disagreement. Right. And that's healthy, and that's fine. And I think you raise a great point there, because I think there is a big distinction. I don't think it's healthy either to assume that you'll never have disagreements or conflict. That's where some of the best ideas come from. That's fine.

Eleonore Eaves:

But it's a matter of, is it still a safe environment to raise those disagreements? Sorry. Or do you feel like you have to keep your mouth shut, even when you see the fire? And because you don't want to be seen as being difficult.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah, exactly. Like, you should be able to bring your authentic self to work. And if that means that you disagree with someone, that's okay. You can bring that, too. Bring it all with you. Bring all your bags.

Eleonore Eaves:

100%. 100%. Right.

Erin Patchell:

Let's unpack it. Yeah, absolutely.

Eleonore Eaves:

It's like when you go to your friend and you did something horrible in your relationship, and your friend says, oh, my God, you were such an idiot. All right.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

You need to go back and apologize.

Erin Patchell:

I think we've all been there. Come on.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly. Right. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I was out of line there.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah, exactly. All right. We hash that out pretty good. Fourth myth, it is mostly women who want and benefit from flexible work. Reality. Men and women. I know.

Eleonore Eaves:

Really?

Erin Patchell:

Men and women see flexibility as a top three employee benefit and critical to their company's success.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

It's a human thing. I mean, every single family now, who can survive in this economy without two incomes, tell me that. Like, two good incomes, ideally. I don't know anyone who isn't, like, tag teaming with their partner.

Eleonore Eaves:

Especially if.

Erin Patchell:

You'Ve got kids, man. There is a dance happening.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah, absolutely. And again, even if a person doesn't have kids for sure, how many men kind of go, oh, right. Yeah. There's another way of doing things. I mean, it just boils people down to a gendered based understanding of what feels right for them, even compared to just who are they? Again, when we look at a lot of these. Right. There are a lot of reasons why a person may wish to work from home. I don't have kids.

Eleonore Eaves:

It has nothing to do with that.

Erin Patchell:

No.

Eleonore Eaves:

But as a type of person who's an individual or independent contributor, oftentimes I just get my best work done when I could put my head down and just work away. Right.

Erin Patchell:

Focus. Yeah. We all work best wherever we work best. Whenever we work best. Full stop.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah.

Erin Patchell:

I do think there is an element of, as the complexity of your personal life increases that. It's like the demand for flexibility. I think that may correlate a little bit.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly. Yeah. But isn't it also, too, a little bit funny that when a man wants to be at home and take care of his kids and actually play a part in their lives, we applaud him for that. Isn't that wonderful? He wants to be a present parent. And yet for a woman. No.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. And I struggle with it because I stayed at home with my kids for years, and I did consulting off the side of my desk, and I did a bunch of other things, but I try to encourage that for women. Some of my previous employees have come to me and said they are so happy that I was transparent about the fact that I stayed home with my children for several years.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly.

Erin Patchell:

Three kids. Because it's not known. People don't talk about it. It's almost taboo.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly. And when we look at the reasons why a person wants to work from home. Right. There could be a multitude of reasons why. First of all, 69% of mental health is impacted by your manager for people who have work based stresses. Right. So if you think about that. Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

If the work culture or the organizational culture, if you feel like you're not fitting in or there are other stressors there. Yeah. That's a high percentage of individuals who would probably get a lot of work done or do better work if they don't have that additional stress. Which goes back to the entire report previously. The other three myths. Right. And then again, the term of strong organizational culture keeps coming up, and a lot of people throw it around. But again, it goes back to emotional intelligence.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right. It goes back to true leadership. And we see constant posts regularly about what is and is not working.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

So back to your first question. What does it take to actually go, right. We understand what works. We understand what doesn't work. And now we're going to actually implement the changes we need to see that suit our organization. That suit our people in order to retain them.

Erin Patchell:

That suit our people. Can we italicize that? You have to get to know your people. You have to know your people to know what's good for your people. Right?

Eleonore Eaves:

100%.

Erin Patchell:

Well, in every organization is different. You're going to have a mix of different philosophies and desires and everything else. So you can't paint it with a broad stroke. You really have to get to know your people.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely. Especially for organizations that are massive multinationals and operate in different cities and countries. Each division is going to be completely different. Which makes sense.

Erin Patchell:

100%.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes.

Erin Patchell:

There are layers. So many layers.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right. So it's understanding how your overall structure and strategies align with the people.

Erin Patchell:

And it's interesting how we usually talk about culture as if it's this one holistic, overarching thing, when really, most of the organizations I work in, they all have a vision. Right? There's an overarching vision. We all know where we're going, where we want to go. We have the same overall desires for the world or whatever it is, social goals, et cetera. But a lot of the time, the culture is very different in different teams. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

Eleonore Eaves:

I don't think. Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

I completely agree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right.

Erin Patchell:

So how should we conclude this little podcast of ours today, Eleonore?

Eleonore Eaves:

I mean, I guess a shameless plug for the benefits of coaching to instill better cultural practices within organizations and help them sustain the changes they need to see.

Erin Patchell:

Conveniently, as the day that we're recording this, Wednesday, November 22, literally, my podcast that I posted this day was about building a coaching culture. So please, yes, 1000 times yes. Building a coaching culture is, I think, learning how to be a coach followed only by being coached.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes.

Erin Patchell:

Followed by coaching your team as a manager, wearing lots of different hats, using some coaching skills. 100%. Yes.

Eleonore Eaves:

Well, exactly. Right. I mean, I think one problem is a lot of organizations just get reports on what needs to be fixed. Right? That's great. There's definitely a need for that. You need to understand what needs to be fixed. You need to understand people. You need to get the data.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely. Support that. And then the next step is to do the coaching to ensure that you are able to actually implement those changes. Right. It's that critical next step because obviously what we see time and time and again is at the first little bit of pickup or problem or hurdle. That's the word I'm looking for, hurdle. People naturally go back to what they know because change is difficult. It takes a lot of time and patience and consistency.

Eleonore Eaves:

This is where the coaching comes in. People know what they need to do. But if it's between meeting a deadline to please a client or doing something different that you're still not 100% comfortable doing, I don't blame the person for leaning in on what they do know how to do. Right. They're still meeting their corporate objectives. That's what they're going to do. So this is where the power of coaching comes in, helping them with those transformations that help them with their whole strategy. Right.

Eleonore Eaves:

It's not just an operational metrics or making your people feel valued and good. It's both. And both rise at the same time and again. It's that fallacy of believing that there's only one seat at the table for women. There should be.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

And if there isn't, then let's start building the factories to create even more. What did.

Erin Patchell:

Let's see what McKinsey says. I'm scrolling down in the list here. It says, recommendations for companies tracking outcomes for women's representation.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes.

Erin Patchell:

If you don't have scorecards for all your hr metrics, that's for sure. Empowering managers to become effective leaders. We actually talked about this a little bit on the last podcast about sponsorship, and we didn't touch on that today. Did you want to touch on that?

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes. I mean, that's another highly critical aspect. Right. Again, we consistently see that women are overly mentored, but not supported with a sponsor. The difference being that a mentor just speaks to you, and again, that sponsor speaks about you in the rooms you're not yet in. So it's a combination of both that is really critically needed. Right. It's about those networks.

Eleonore Eaves:

And again, this is a benefit of actually going into the office, is that you're building that network, but there are other ways as well to build your network. I mean, I met you at a conference. Right? Simple as that. There are lots of ways to build those human connections, but that's really and truly the most critical part.

Erin Patchell:

Addressing microaggressions head on. So we talked about culture and how to create a culture where people can say what's on their mind and maybe interject or provide feedback, or if you can't do that, maybe a safe word. I don't know, talk about that offline there, Eleonore. Hash that out. Unlocking the full potential of flexible work. Yes. And fixing the broken rung once and for. Hmm.

Erin Patchell:

That one might be the biggest challenge out of all of them.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah. But it's so worth it, right? Because, yes, it is probably the hardest one to do, but obviously one of the most important, if you don't have that steady pipeline of talent of individuals and you're not supporting them, then none of the other things matter.

Erin Patchell:

And making sure there's, like, proper representation within your talent management pipeline.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely. And I also love that in one of their other lines, they did mention that it does take time. So assuming that there's also this other false belief that, oh, well, we gave this a year and nothing changed, so, yeah, I guess that wasn't a really good approach. Well, it takes time. Right? It takes time. And you need to make sure that even the people doing the changes, the managers, the people leading their teams, have the supports they need. So not just the women, but everyone across the board, so they actually know how to do this work properly.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

And so also, too, no one feels alienated. Right. The whole point of this isn't to make anyone dig in their heels and feel like they're being looked down upon or scrutinized or anything like that. That's not how you build consensus. Right. You want to get everyone to buy into this. You need to make it as part of the core of your new company culture. So to do that, everybody needs to buy in.

Eleonore Eaves:

Everybody needs to see the benefits to them to hopefully even change any misconceptions about it. Taking away from their hard earned work or from their rights.

Erin Patchell:

Thank you so much for joining me.

Eleonore Eaves:

Eleonore, thank you so much. I can't wait to speak with you again.

Erin Patchell:

It is always a pleasure. Thanks again to the amazing Eleonore Eve for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. This is our 39th episode and going strong. If you'd like to get a hold of Eleonore, if you're interested in coaching or her consulting services, you can find her@evescoaching.com. Eavescoaching.com. That's all for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. San at positivist ca S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup, have a beautiful day at work.

--

Visit Eleonore Eaves at eavescoaching.com or info@eavescoaching.com.

Connect with Eleonore on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleonore-eaves.

If Alex Keenan is known for anything, it's for knowing how to take the “ick out of public speaking"!

From public speaking at conferences to courtrooms to crowded bars, Alex has learned a thing or ten about authentic audience connection and making public speaking a fun and crucial skill for success. 

With a deep understanding of how to bridge gaps between people - and a gift for helping her clients find the strength to confront their fears - Alex helps her clients speak confidently, find the right words, and build a stage presence that is powerfully authentic.

As Alex says weirdos, let's take the "ick out of public speaking and start showing up sauthentically"!

Stay in Touch with Alex:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandrakeenan/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/StageLightCommunications

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stagelightcomms/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRIXL11O608vVB9FNQZybdQ

For more on Alex and her services:

https://stagelight.ca/

Script:

That means two things. It means that you can, you have a lot of leeway to just be yourself and not really worry about what people are saying. It also means that you have to work a lot harder than you think to get noticed and to get people to retain your ideas. And so I think it's a question of, you know, go out there and be who you are and don't stop being who you are and don't stop saying what you have to say.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, a podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose at work. I'm really happy to have Alex Keenan on the show. Welcome, Alex.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

So Alex takes the ick out of public speaking. She's spoken everywhere from conferences to rooms to crowded bars and learned a thing or two about authentic audience connection. She works with businesses, professionals, and change makers who recognize that public speaking is a crucial tool for their success. And I would say if you're a person who has a message, you have something important that you want to share with the world and that you want to get it out there, but you're a little too afraid to take that first step, this is the perfect podcast episode for you. I'm really excited to chat with you, Alex.

Thank you.

Awesome. Okay. So let's just give you an opportunity to tell everyone about yourself. You know, what is it that has motivated you to, to do this in the first place? Yeah, I think people are really interesting. Like, how do we connect with each other? Or how do we kind of fail to connect with each other? And what's what's going on in that space in between?

So I came through a career change, I used to practice law, which I'll get into that it was it wasn't the right fit for me. But I did learn a lot about how you know how do you show up how do you think on your feet and put your best case forward be persuasive and I combine kind of that background with you know I do comedy so I used to be an improv teacher I've done stand-up and then so there you learn how to be more authentic, how to really engage with a group. And I kind of, I bring these things together. And mostly I work with professionals and business owners on how to promote themselves professionally. But I really think that we need to let go of this idea that professional communication needs to be boring and soulless and robotic. And we can bring who we are into the way that we communicate, the way that we express ourselves and how we, you know, show ourselves to the world. Yeah.

I'm so glad to hear you say that. I mean, and that there's a perfect segue into like, you know, I'm, I'm definitely a weirdo. I can't not be a weirdo. Like if I'm talking into a group of people, it's going to bubble out no matter what I do to try to keep it under wraps. Do you identify as a weirdo at all? I sure do. I sure do. Has that influenced the work that you do, do you think? So I, you know, there are a lot of there are a lot of rules of public speaking and communication that I just, you know, don't worry about it. Don't start with a quote, you know, like don't picture the audience in their underwear. Don't don't obsessive about whether you are using filler words. Filler words are communication. And I think we really need to be strategic.

And I like to be kind of, you know, data driven and analyzing, you know, how do we communicate with each other and what's the impact that it's having? And so sometimes I work with clients. I don't just do public speaking. I also work with people who are trying to be more effective in their workplace communication. And so, for example, sometimes I get women who come in and say, oh, the, you know, the men that I'm in meetings with say I use too much upspeak.

And so I'll start with, OK, here's what upspeak here's why can I swear on here I yes please do and also I don't know what up speak is for someone you know for someone to yeah you know pretend that you're not a professional because you have a certain vocal habit oh you mean like what's it called yeah yeah like when you know like your voice kind of goes up. Oh, yeah. Is there another word for that too? I can't remember.

Yeah, I think there's, there might be another word for that as well. I can't remember, but yeah. Okay. So it's when you're like, I've noticed that actually it's interesting you say that because on my first, if you listen to a lot of my first podcast episodes, it's one of the things that I gave myself feedback on that I've been trying not to do anymore. Is that like, da, da, da, like kind of like ask you like, almost like you're asking a question. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, exactly. But it's really interesting because there are people who, especially if women are doing it, well, you know, kind of like judge and say, it makes you sound insecure and it, you know, it takes away your credibility. But if you, you know, if you look at the science and the linguistics behind the use of that technique, just to name one, there's a lot of subtlety. And it depends on who is using it and what their position in that relationship is.

 And so just kind of flattening it down to this is annoying and it makes you sound insecure is, you know, it's simplistic. Yeah, it's very simplistic. And it kind of flattens out the communication that takes place within that vocal habit. And so, you know, we start with that conversation, but you should not have to change everything that you are just to be accepted in your workplace. But, you know, if it is holding you back, here are some options and you can choose how you go forward with this. Here's how you can train yourself to make a choice about whether you're going to use that or not. And bring that out in whatever way is going to get you the results that you want and allow you to be authentic when you feel you need to be authentic and to adapt when you feel you need to adapt. Yeah. So, oh my goodness. Yeah.

 There are so many things that like looking back, especially on the podcast, because when you're podcasting, you don't get a lot in real life, you don't get a lot of opportunities to actually listen to yourself talk over and over and over again, like recorded. Right. I think podcasting and, you know, is one of the opportunities, obviously. And so every week I would listen to, especially when I was in the first season, when I was editing everything by myself and it was constant critique. It's funny because we're, I don't do that to other people, you know, like I do to myself, but how many people are still, I wonder like, what is the judgment? I don't know that we're there yet. I think there's still a lot the judgment? I don't know that we're there yet. I think there's still a lot of judgment out there for the way that we present ourselves professionally. Yeah, I think there absolutely is. I'm sorry. I turned my phone off. Absolutely.

Yeah, there is a lot of judgment in, you know, in many respects. And that's sometimes why people come to me is because they're getting that judgment and people feel absolutely entitled to say, I don't like the way you speak. And I don't think there's, there's an easy answer to that. I think part of it is education. Part of it is normalization. You know, the way that one generation speaks becomes, you know, the norm when, when they grow up. And so it's, you know, it's constantly changing. But I think there is a lot of power in being able to identify, you know, listen to yourself in a recording, say, okay, this is what's happening. And I didn't realize it. What can I do about this if I want to do something about it? Right? Yeah.

And then you have the autonomy to choose. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah yeah but I think you were not alone in not liking to listen to it I don't like to listen to myself I'm good now like now that I've done it a hundred times I'm like okay now I like the sound of my own voice and I'm like yeah bring it on yeah good good no it's gotten to the point where I'm like it's too much now I'm like okay Erin you gotta you know relax well and I think it comes from when you're hearing it once in a while what you're hearing clashes with what you actually think you sound like and so it's this weird um you know disparity between your expectations and what you're distorted yeah yeah and if you're used to hearing yourself on recording you're just okay that's what I sound like and you can just move on from that but it takes some time it's true um but you can definitely like my voice has changed you know the I don't even know if it's changed for the better to be honest now that I'm like sometimes I go back to those first episodes and I'm like oh I feel like I feel like my voice was I feel like things were a little more natural back then um and not I don't know maybe I've yeah, putting on too many airs now or something, but whatever, we evolve.

Maybe I'll go, maybe I'll devolve and then that'll be better. But I think I've told you this before about my journey into being able to speak in front of people and that, and you were also, I think, pretty shy growing up. Oh yeah. From what I, yeah. Yeah. We were both big time shy. And so I would love to have a conversation about that because I think a lot of our weirdo followers out there who are listening to this, you know, we're passionate people like weirdos, especially, or the way that I define it, at least, you know, folks who are, have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Maybe they haven't always felt included.

 There's something maybe a little bit different about the way they think or unique about the things that they're interested in. So usually very passionate, right? Like focused and passionate, sometimes hyper-focused on things. Uh, and so having something to say, right. Or something that you want to like an agenda, you've got something, some way you want to change the world usually for the good, I hope. Um, but just feeling blocked on like how to get past that first step, um, for people that are out there who want to take that first step. And they're like, I think I'm motivated to take that first step. What would you suggest, recommend? I think the first thing is, you know, give yourself a break. A lot of people, you know, they fear public speaking. They fear, you know, speaking up and kind of judge themselves for that.

But it's so normal, right? Most of us didn't learn how to do this. for that but it's so normal right most of us didn't learn how to do this we were just kind of thrown into okay you're in class and you need to give this presentation in front of all the other kids and some of them might be bullying you and just go for it and do well and then we get into the work world and it's the same thing get up and talk about your work so you know um we can all we can all silently judge you or at least that's how it feels and you know there will be consequences if you don't do well but we're not going to bother giving you the time to learn it.

 And so we, it kind of almost sets people up to fail. So I think, first of all, you know, giving yourself a break and recognizing that the reason it feels so negative might be because we only do it in these situations where we're forced to, and there could be negative consequences. And so one thing that I recommend to people all the time is if you want to get better at this go do something you think is fun you know um like some some people I know um some of my clients some of my friends love Toastmasters and that's terrific for them I quit Toastmasters four times it wasn't fun for me and that's fine it's just a personal thing my thing was improv yeah and it was it was great to just be able to get on stage in front of people and let loose and not worry about what was going to happen because once that scene is done that scene is done and nobody thinks about it again and um and so that was kind of my pathway to be able to just show up and and not worry about how I was being judged for some people it might be you know you want to you want to run your book club or you want to get certified to teach the fitness class that you like taking, right?

 Whatever is that thing that's going to get you in front of people and you're excited enough to do it, but that overrides the fear that you have of it. That's your path to overcoming your fear and to starting to enjoy it. Right. Yeah. So you can take like really baby steps, like getting in front. I think my first thing was like corporate training, right? Like going in and internal training first, like training my team, like first a couple of people, then more people. And then, you know, external to the corporation. So like, you know, doing work with clients and getting in front of people and doing stuff like that. And then it was workshops, like public workshops. And then, you know, it got bigger and bigger. But like starting even back before that, before that was sales, honestly, like, when I was like 1213, I couldn't even make a phone call.

Like I was terrified. Like, did you ever go through that? Like? call like I was terrified like did you ever go through that like um yes yeah for sure I couldn't I couldn't even pick up the phone to I'd have to write down a whole script it was like calling my friend to go on a you know go out to the movie like even even something like that yeah it was extreme like I'd literally have to write out a whole script um and then it was literally practice and practice and practice and practice. And then in my 30s, I started in business development, like kind of like thrown into it. And I had a list of people I had to call. And it was like, yeah, it was like cold calling. But the nice thing about cold calling is like, there's no pressure, really, you know, it feels like pressure, but there's no, like, there's nothing, nothing's going to happen if they say no and they won't talk to you and nothing's going to happen if you like bungle up that phone call.

Cause they will never remember you, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They don't know you. They're total strangers. Right. Yeah. That's such a great point. Yeah. So people get a lot of anxiety around cold calls, but I think it's like one of the lowest risk things that you can start on if you just need to practice talking to people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's going to be a certain failure rate. And so it's not personal. No. I mean, maybe it is, but like you're learning, right? Yeah. Like start on like low risk potential client or leads or whatever. Like don't start on your like you know the highest the most important people to talk to exactly yeah yeah yeah anyways yeah so I never like I never really thought about it in those terms but you're absolutely right yeah sales was really helpful and now I feel like I can talk to anyone unless it's certain situations that get my like guard up or whatever and then I'm like back to square one.

So how did you end up in a situation where you, you are terrified to talk on the phone and you're suddenly you're doing cold calls. Like, how did you make, I mean, that was like, there was like probably 12 years in between those two, you know? So it was a long time. Cause I didn't really start, I didn't start in business development until I was like in my early thirties. Um, but even at the beginning of that, like I would have a whole script written out and I would know what I was going to say. And then after like the first thousand cold calls, you know, I could throw the script out and, um, you know, it was just, it was just, my boss was like, I actually wasn't even my boss. It was, I felt like I needed to be useful in a different way. Um, and so I pushed myself to do that because I was like, I want to be like beyond a doubt useful. Right. 

And so to, to me, sales is like, you know, every business needs sales. Like you're pretty much always going to have a job if you're a great salesperson. Right. Yeah. You know, so to me becoming like, you know, absolutely without a doubt useful meant like contributing revenue generation. But not everyone goes that way. That was a motivating factor. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a strong desire behind it. Exactly. That's factor. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a strong desire behind it. Exactly. That's key. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how about for you? What led you to this? Oh, it was a long and winding road. So I am, yeah, I was very shy growing up and it took me a long time to get over that. I mean, I think, so law school did it, I think, but in a really weird way. So in second year, we had to do, it's called a moot. And so it's basically a mock legal argument. So you get your case and you have to come up with, you know, your arguments for or against it and you present it. And they, you know, they had professors, they had upper year students and they had lawyers from the community as the judges. And they would just hammer you with questions. You would get maybe one sentence out and then they would just start asking you questions. And I did do great at this. It was not, you know, it was not my top strength.

 And I was still very nervous at that point. And the practitioner, the lawyer who was on my judges panel, heckled like he made fun of me and you just have to stand you just have to stand there and and answer the questions and stay calm and um it was awful it was awful but then you know I got got down from there and sat down and I'm like oh I am not dead I guess it's fine right and um yeah I survived this. And so what's the, what's the worst that anybody could do to me? And then, you know, I practiced law for a while and sometimes you're getting up there and the judge is cranky and they're just not buying what you're trying to sell them. And you just have to, you know, commit and go for it and hope for the best. And sometimes it was, sometimes it was awful. But then there was one day I sat down and, you know, I had it was it was a really challenging day. And I sat down and went, Oh, was that fun? You know, like my heart was beating, but not in a negative way.

Right. You know, fear and excitement are so tightly tied to each other you know like that's why people love horror movies right and sometimes you get to this point where you realize you're you're not experiencing it as fear anymore you're just like you're just amped up yeah and that's when it shifts because then it's not negative anymore it's it's just a thing you do and you can feel good about it that's true that that that definitely happened to to me as well or happens to me pretty much every time I go on stage. It's like I'm terrified and then I settle into kind of like a kind of like alert but like ready state. And then somewhere between the beginning and the end, it's, there's like, it's like, I'm doing the thing. And then at the end, once I've decompressed, it's like, now I'm just excited. Like, when can I do the next one? Let's go. I'm like, yeah, the adrenaline's going, all the good hormones are flooding and everything.

It's like, it's over. You know, do you find you get into that state of flow while you're speaking yeah um but that actually was really difficult for me to learn how to do it and sometimes I'm still I'm struggling to still find the best like hook into that I guess I would say or like you know you've got to like so I find I find storytelling really helps and I know that that's something that I think you teach as well probably is around storytelling yeah as a tactic um there's certain tactics that I've I've learned that that that seem to help trigger that flow state can you talk a little bit about that yeah um where to dive in because there's so much in it yeah I think the biggest part of it is when you start to feel connection with the audience like I'm not performing for people anymore I'm just I'm here I'm doing my thing they're getting something out of it and I find that happens best when I can find a few people in the audience who are they're just into it right you're going to look out at the audience and you're going to have some people who are nodding along. They're going to have some people who are zeroed in on you. You're going to have some people who are looking like this. I'm like, you know, that might just be their face. I, you know, I don't take it personally. 

We don't judge. But, you know, so when you find people who are really keyed into what you're saying, and then it's a connection and we're just, you know, I'm just having a one-sided conversation with them or, you know, I really like to be interactive when I can. And so, you know, I'm just having a one-sided conversation with them or, you know, I really like to be interactive when I can. And so, you know, how can I bring them into, you know, to be talking to me? And I find that it, you know, you're interacting with each other in a really deep way. I find for some people movement can really help them with that. So you can use not just body language, but your movement in a space to highlight. So, you know, one technique is if you're kind of comparing and contrasting, you can kind of move over to this space to, you know, compare like before, and then move over to this space when you talk about after. And as you move between those spaces, you're conditioning the audience to think, okay, now she's talking about this, now she's talking about this.

And so you can kind of get the audience into a groove with that, but you can also get yourself into a groove with this. lot of nervous energy on stage and and just being learning how to move strategically she was burning off that nervous energy and she you know it just became yeah I'm like thinking back I'm like that is so me yeah and for the people watching it was just this hypnotic thing and she wasn't just pacing she was moving very purposefully but it was able to kind of meet that need for her to be moving yeah like what I did did recently did a pitch at Invest Ottawa for our other project, the Train to Help project, which we are rebranding soon. And I will release that information shortly. Little tidbit. But I remember I was practicing, we were coming home. I'd almost memorized the whole three minute pitch. And I use a lot of hand motions to help me remember the words, right? And there was this, I was stuck on this one line.

 I was like, man, and it's a three minute pitch and they don't give you a second more, right? So you have to literally memorize that whole thing, like word for word for word. And so we were on my way home, Noemi, one of our team members and I were driving home from Collision Conference and literally I was driving from Toronto and then going straight to the Invest Ottawa to do the pitch and I remember you know she's just she's like helping me mime she's literally like miming all of my hand gestures to me and there was one where she was like you know she's doing this and I'm like you know it's just triggering that word for me so and I'm like you gotta stand in front of me in the audience and literally like mime the things with me to try to help me remember this just this one line this these like four words that I couldn't remember for the life of me for some reason because I was exhausted um it just was really funny moment no I love yeah yeah yeah the memory the muscle memory kind of encodes what you want to say and that's why why, you know, you get feedback. Sometimes people will say, oh, you use too many hand gestures. You know, you don't you don't use your hands enough and everyone has their own taste.

So my take is just just do what feels natural because we don't just, you know, we don't just speak with our hands. We think with our hands, right? You're, you know, that message is encoded in the way that you move when you practice it and so if you're certainly forced to you know to keep your hands still when you're used to moving them it's it's harder to think like it's harder to remember what you're trying to say yeah it totally is yeah what other tricks of the trade are uh to get get us into flow get us like locked into yeah oh um well I think one one thing is even before you know even before you start getting familiar with the space that you're in and kind of getting grounded in it so one thing that like most you know professional speakers show up early and just kind of take a look around and get up there in that space and just be there. So you are comfortable and you know, you know where you need to be. You, you, you know how far you can move forward before you fall off the stage and all of this.

 And my, my first improv instructor, he taught us this exercise that I absolutely love. And sometimes I do it inside my head, which is, you know, you get into a space and if you're feeling a little bit nervous, okay, it goes like this. My name is Alex Keenan and I own this stage. And when I'm working with clients, if we're working on the nerves, we do some exercises to kind of deconstruct what are the stories that they're telling themselves that are, you know, convincing them that, you know, that this is a bad and scary thing and how can we transform those messages? And then like, we do this, we like out loud with as much swagger as you've got, and you're not just doing it once, you're doing it three times. Oh God. I love it. You're like, become like a whole like WWE announcer. love it you like become like a whole like wwe announcer oh yeah yeah more swagger right that's awesome yeah that's hilarious oh gosh yeah i'm trying to think like what other hacks have i ever employed like i think people sometimes underestimate how much they need to practice i think that's a big one or at least for me i don't know about other people but um i uh i don't think i've ever had anything go well if I haven't practiced enough. No, no, exactly. Yeah. And you need to practice out loud. They get self-conscious because there might be someone in the next room who could hear them. But if you're just reading it to yourself, you're not practicing. No. You need, again, that muscle memory. You need to make that happen. I put sticky notes on the wall with faces drawn on them. So that while I'm practicing, I'm making eye contact with somebody.

Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, really good idea. Actually. Like I've always I found like, I did when it was the disrupt HR. So I can't remember the format. It's like, how many slides 15 slides in five minutes is that right slide every 20 seconds there's a name for that format that I can't remember right now um so there was one that's similar to that is called Pecha Kucha and yeah Pecha Kucha okay yeah there's another one too yeah Pecha Kucha um and that one I that, that was my first like time, like going up and having to memorize something like that, you know? And that one, I remember I, I literally practice in no less than like six different locations. I was like driving all over the world, like practicing because I just wanted to feel comfortable in like any situation. Cause I knew that I had never been there before. It's a weird crowd. It's a weird location. Like I'm, I'm socially anxious. So for me, like practicing in different locations, I think that was really helpful and it went really well. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You really need to, in order to be adaptable to just try it out in different ways in front of different people. Yeah. So how do you help as a coach? Like when you're coming alongside someone and you're like kind of their guide through this, like what, how do you play that role? How does that work? Hmm. So it depends what they need and where they're coming in, usually the first step is addressing, you know, the nerves, the fear, the self-doubt. And we kind of dig into, you know, what's the story that you're telling yourself and how can you rewrite that story?

Because so much of communication, and that includes self-talk, is a habit that you need to, you need to recognize what you're doing. And then you need to be able to You need to recognize what you're doing and then you need to be able to intervene at the right moment in order to make a different choice. And so we work on, you know, the habits of that self-talk. This is all going to go wrong. What if this happens? What if that happens? You know, identify, okay, so if something goes wrong, what are you going to do? Let's make a plan, right? And so then they have a plan. They have, you know, new messages. So when that, you know, what if this bad thing happens? They have, you know, new messages. So when that, you know, what if this bad thing happens, they have, you know, an answer to it. What if this good thing happens? That kind of thing. We own the stage. I work with them on messaging. So a lot of times people come to me and they have something that they are preparing for.

 And so we'll work on, you know, what's your message? Who's your audience? What do they need to hear? You know, what are you, what are you trying to accomplish? And how can they help you? And what do they need to hear from you in order to want to help you? What's going to get them excited about helping you? You know, what do they need to know? What do they want to know? What kind of stories will speak to them? And we, you know, we put, we put that together and then we, we work on the delivery and it's, you know, me, you know, we put, we put that together and then we, we work on the delivery and it's, you know, me, you know, they might practice and I'll kind of observe, okay, you know, here, here's what you do really well. Here are the habits that you have, um, that might not be serving you. Here are some practices that I'm going to give you to, you know, to reshape those. We do a lot of, a lot of breathing exercises. Breathing is, is key. we do a lot of a lot of breathing exercises breathing is is key I've gotten into trouble a few times yeah like in breathing when especially when you're like you're like nervous right so you're probably hyperventilating maybe a little bit or at least I noticed that and then it's like you can run out of air really quickly so yeah what how do you how do you help people with that like what's your's your recommendation?

Um, so we, you know, first of all, we do, um, a lot of just, you know, like, um, diaphragmatic breathing, right. Um, getting used to big, deep inhales into, you know, into your diaphragm, not, but you know, deep, deep breath. And so that's, you know, it's a foundation for calming yourself down. First of all, it's a foundation for being able to project your voice. It's a foundation for pacing. Like this is, you know, one of the things that I have worked on and continue to work on because I've always been a really fast talker and I had to train myself to, you know, to speak at a normal human pace. And sometimes when I get excited or nervous, it still comes out. And so, you know, it's doing these different exercises that force you to breathe, that force you to kind of stop and slow down and breathe. And then you're, you know, you're building your lung capacity, you're building your control over your voice. And then, you know, so then we can turn that into, okay, how do you, you know, speak to someone who is five feet in front of you? How do you use that, that voice to speak to someone who's on the other side of the room? How do you use that voice to speak to someone on the other side of the football field, right? So you can control your voice, how it's heard, who it's heard by, how quickly or slowly you go. So you can create, you know, you can create emotions using the speed of your voice.

And yeah, this is just how we, you know, we create a mood and start to influence people based on just how you use your voice. But it starts with being able to control your voice, which starts with being able to control your breath. Right. And the awareness, I guess. Yes. Yeah. Aware awareness is huge yeah yeah okay okay this is awesome I feel like I'm learning a lot thank you for that I'm my pleasure I can nerd out about this all day oh yeah well for sure um the the thing is like it's so important like I don't think people realize like I think public speaking and writing compelling, like writing a compelling anything story, you know, and then turning that into something that you can share with people. I think those are the two most important skill sets probably, or two of the most important skill sets for sure, you know, that you can have period. I mean, if you can have period I mean if you want to sell anything if you want to get your point across if you want to make any change happen you need to be able to convince people to do you know to to understand what you're trying to do and to make it relevant for them right um yeah you can't do that without without those skills no no exactly and um yeah speaking of that you have to be able to be concise about it and this is one of the things that I learned practicing law is you know you might write a 20 page brief for a judge they might read the first line and so you need to be able to summarize your argument in one sentence and I make people do that all the time. Yeah, the presentation, do it to me in one sentence.

And then that's hard. And a lot of people that I work with, they have trouble with rambling. Because, you know, the thoughts are not, you know, fully clarified, or, you know, maybe there's this fear of not being understood. And so we work on how you, you know, narrow this down, how you make it clear and concise because people don't have all day and they're just sitting there going, okay, get to the point, you know, what have you got for me? Yeah, absolutely. Practice, practice, practice, like watch people. If their eyes glaze over, then maybe, you know, maybe try something different. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's where the practice, you know, you can practice what you've got, but then sometimes you have to go off script and that's a whole other skillset that, you know, how do you learn to think more quickly on your feet and how do you, you know, adapt to the unexpected? And that's, you know, another set of skills that I work with people on. Yeah. Like the improv skills almost yeah yeah but like people often think like improv it's like you know oh you're just like winging it or whatever but you're not like people like improv actors they're practicing their craft yeah it is a skill yeah exactly yeah there are principles that you apply to any given situation yeah and lots of pattern recognition as well exactly exactly yeah yeah yeah awesome and yeah I find that really comes in handy like when you know you realize that the audience isn't having it you need to go off script and when uh you're in a Q&A and anything could happen right yes that's true and learning how to like accept constructive feedback like in in the moment as well. I think that's a really, anyways, there's so many things we could talk about. Oh yeah. Uh, I just noticed, I'm noticing the time and we're kind of getting to the time where we start to, you know, think about wrapping up.

Is there anything that you wanted to be like, you know, share with, you know, folks who really want to have their voices heard? Any like final thoughts or inspirational, an inspirational moment? I think that the biggest thing is knowing that people are not observing you as closely as you are observing yourself. There is something called the spotlight effect where, you know, we think that we are being very, very closely observed, everyone else is kind of doing their thing, going about their life and obsessing over how they are being perceived. And so that means two things. It means that you can, you have a lot of leeway to just be yourself, and not really worry about what people are saying. It also means that you have to work a lot harder than you think to get noticed and to get people to retain your ideas. And so I think it's a question of, you know, go out there and be who you are and don't stop being who you are and don't stop saying what you have to say, because that's really, that's what it takes. And I think that, you know, we all have the right to be heard and to be able to exist the way that we are.

Oh, you make me cry. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us, Alex.

It's been such a pleasure.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Erin: Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, passion, transparency and purpose in our world of work and the impact that we can make in our organizations today. And today we have an awesome guest with us, Hanieh Khoshkhou. Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace.

Hanieh: Thank you for having me.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. It's our pleasure. And Hanieh is the founder of e-Tree Group, a tech startup focused on custom interactive learning for professional development, onboarding, corporate training and more. She's a lifelong educator and a creator with more than two decades of experience working domestically and internationally. And I got a sneak peek of some of your work and I was very impressed. So I'm really excited today to talk about building a culture of learning and all of the beautiful things that come along with that.

[Intro Music]

Erin: So tell us about yourself, Hanieh, and a little bit about your company as well.

Hanieh: You know, I started off in education. I was teaching in college for a long time in Quebec. I taught at the Cejep level over there, which is the college system. And then from there, I had always wanted to work internationally, so I moved to the Middle East. I was living in Oman, and I was teaching at the teachers college over there, which was wonderful. I got to really expand my knowledge, my overall knowledge, my ability to be able to assimilate to different cultures and teaching abilities. And then once that completed, I came back home to Toronto. I moved to Ottawa.

And then I got to a point where I was like, I no longer necessarily want to teach. So I moved into management. I was managing out in Ottawa at a not for profit, which was equally great. Learned quite a bit over there. And then I also got into a space... I got bitten, Erin, by the entrepreneurial bug. And I was like, I want to create something of my own. I want to do something that, what is my passion? What are the things that I haven't done so far? Right? So I got into entrepreneurship simply because it was something that was like, what next? What do I do? Right? What do I do that brings me passion and joy, right? So hence getting into the tech startup with my company and we focus on, again, there's still the realm of learning and development, but now I do it for companies and organizations and whoever's interested.

So we customize, like you said, we customize interactive learning and we're trying to really change what training and onboarding and professional development looks like in the corporate or not for profit or government looks like.

Erin: That's amazing. What is it that inspires you about your work?

Hanieh: I think one thing that I love, and I'm so happy about is that I'm able to bring all my knowledge in. So I don't just use one aspect of my years of accumulation of knowledge, right? Whether it's my education, I got a master's in education specializing in curriculum development. So whether it's that, whether it's my languages, whether it's my interpersonal skills, I get to use so many different aspects of my knowledge which feel so fulfilling to me. Whether it's multitasking, whether it's being able to manage my severe ADHD, but still be able to go through with everything because I have hyper focus and I can do this and I can manage everything, right? So it's like a combination of everything, which I really enjoy.

Erin: That's awesome. In our previous conversation, we both have adhd, so we talked about all kinds of things, but one of the things that I remember we both were super passionate about is building accessible learning cultures within organizations. Yeah. So have you seen. Let me repeat this. How have you seen cultural influences...the cultural.... I would call it like a cultural revolution that we're in right now. How is that evolving the way that we build learning cultures in organizations?

Hanieh: I think one of the primary examples that I see within that is the wonderful work so many di practitioners are doing being embedded within the learning, right. So something as simple, or it could like something simple, but at the same time powerful when it comes to the images I'm creating for my learning, right. Who am I centering? Right? Who am I representing? How am I being able to show diversity within my work, within the e courses or even presentations or workshops I'm creating, right. That, to me, has been a significant game changer because we are continuously making sure that we are being able to put attention on everyone, to bring the beauty of diversity that we all live through into our work. That, for me, has been a major cultural change.

Erin: That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I've seen a little bit of that as well. It seemed like Dei and accessibility were more siloed in a lot of ways, and then lately it's more like it's being woven through, or I guess folks like yourself are trying. You're trying to weave it through. Everything that we do doesn't matter what the training is, what the competency is like weaving diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility practices. It's just becoming more universal, I think, maybe.

Hanieh: And as the designers and as the creators, when you're being mindful of that and when you're present, when you're creating these situations or work, it makes such an impact it makes such an impact. Like, I've had folks outreach to me and say, you know that little thing you did, or I was doing a session and I had a little PowerPoint icon and I was talking about families. And the PowerPoint icon family was a typical heteronormative family. And I said, folks, I just want you to know, I know this is very heteronormative. Right. But families come in all different shapes and sizes and looks, and I want you to know that. That's all I said. Right.

I just want you to know this is what I've had access to when it comes to icons from this particular. This person outreached to me and said, thank you for acknowledging that. That's all it was. Eh, Erin? It wasn't more than that. It was just saying, hey, I acknowledge that there's more folks out here who are families who don't necessarily look like this.

Erin: Absolutely.

Hanieh: And that's what it comes down to in my head, it's like you're acknowledging it. That's like the first step.

Erin: Are there other changes that you've noticed in the last ten years of the evolution in adult learning? Take me through that.

Hanieh:

I think more and more folks are realizing the importance of it, the importance of it when it comes to the bottom line of any company organization. How are you building your team members? How are you constantly showing them that not only do you obviously want them to be there to do their job, but you're also giving them the opportunity to grow. Right. So I think more and more companies and organizations are aware of this, and they want to be able to place themselves in a position where they're like, listen, not only can you come on and work with us, but we also have these different learning opportunities. It's become one of those things where it's one of the things that they will outline in their job descriptions, right? They're like, hey, you can learn. We can give you whatever tuition money for it, or we have access to this, or it's a way for companies to recruit great talent. So more and more, it's become a tool for companies to do so.

Erin: Okay, cool. Yeah, I can see that as a huge benefit. And I think you're right. And I think the millennial generation, the Gen Z generation particularly, are actually really self motivated to learn. If you ran into a potential client who you felt like didn't have that commitment to learning or didn't understand the value of it, what would you tell them? I'm curious.

Hanieh: I would ask them, how are you retaining your employees, other than obviously pay and vacation, how else are you motivating folks to stay with you? How are you evaluating that? When you have your exit interviews with folks, what is their reason for them to leave? Are they growing in their position? Because after a year or two folks have already mastered that specific task or whatever it is that they're doing responsibility. So how are you continuously ensuring your team members to grow? That's huge because it has both short term and long term impacts on the team member. Right. And it direct hit on retention. So those were the questions I'd want to ask in terms of gauging where any company or organization is at. Right. Because a lot of times people will be like, yeah, but people will be like, there's no growth. Well, what does that mean? Growth is for them is, well, am I going to do something else other than this in a year or two? So how do you build the growth?

Erin Patchell: Yeah, well, a lot of the companies or ceos, founders that I talk to, I think a lot of them have an interest in learning, but they don't realize that there's a time commitment. Maybe they realize it, but the commitment hasn't been turned into action yet. Right. And so I love the way that you approach learning, though, in terms of like micro learning and using the available technologies because I think that it can create that learning environment without maximizing efficiency though, as well. Talk to me a little bit about that. How is technology impacting corporate learning right now and how do you see it impacting corporate learning in the future? What's the future of elearning?

Hanieh: I think, of course we have to touch on AI, right? Like the AI is everywhere, everyone's talking about it. I don't think it's necessarily going to completely. It is obviously transforming everything. And a lot of, for example, tools that I personally use have already started to embed AI within the actual tool itself, which is wonderful. I think the important thing about technology and just continuously evolving is how the user, the person creating it is doing it. What is their viewpoint on it? Are they equally growing with the vast speed that everything else is? How are they interpreting it? Because at the end of the day, no matter how much access we all might have to technology, it's the person who's creating it that will ultimately have the final say as to how it's being distributed.

Erin: Right?

Hanieh: Did I go off on that one or, I don't know. Did I answer your question correctly, Erin?

Erin: I mean, there's no correct way to answer any. With, with the technology and e learning, how do you continue to see this evolving down the think.

Hanieh: I think definitely when it comes to accessibility to it, that's a major point with folks. So that just because I might not have access, let's say, to Internet, right. How are my learners being able to engage with it? Just because we have the luxury of we sign in and everything is there, how can we distribute technology to folks who might not necessarily have it? And that's where it's going further, more and more. Right. Making sure, for example, something as simple as we're using Zoom now, in the beginning, it didn't have closed captioning, right? It didn't have closed captioning, but now it does. Right. So it's like making sure that it's being able to serve everyone. That's where it's going.

And more and more people, organizations, companies are aware of that. Like, how am I serving everyone? And it's not just like a group of folks who are able bodied or perfectly capable of understanding certain things. I think that's where we're going when it comes to the future of elearning.

Erin: Awesome. If you had like a big red easy button or like a magic wand.

Hanieh: Yeah.

Erin: Is there, like, one thing that you can think of? You'd be like, if I could just make that happen just by snapping my fingers. Is there anything, any solution that you would create

Hanieh: When it comes to elearning?

Erin: Yeah.

Hanieh: When it comes to elearning, I think a lot of times I find I have to go through multiple tools to have a final product.

Erin: Okay.

Hanieh: Multiple tools. Like, I will edit videos in one place. Sometimes I will edit and take that and put it into another tool where I have my animation. I think being able to kind of do, putting everything together, being able to do all those things in one tool, I love powtoon, for example. Right. That's one of my favorite tools. But I can't get that same animation level in one of my editing tools. I can't. Everything's in there. And with powtoon, I don't get to necessarily edit as extensively as I can with my editing tool. So I think it's just, mind you, it's evolved quite a bit and it's wonderful. I still use it. It's just being able to have everything kind of together.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah. I can think of other use cases like that where it'd be like, man, it would be so nice if this was just one big solution, or even if it was like an integrated something or other, having better integrations between products would be great, too. From a user experience standpoint, from the experience of the participants going through your elearning, is there anything that you would just be like if we could just make that happen magically? That would be great.

Hanieh: I'm trying to sprinkle quite a bit of magic as much as possible. I'm trying much, for example, to always have subtitles available. I'd love to be able to also have the option of English, French, always. You know what I mean? Or any other language that necessary within the region. I'd love to be able to have. We had that discussion about being able to help folks, whether it's hard of... blind. Right.

Erin: Vision impairments, hearing impairments.

Hanieh:To be able to, again, support on many. I think just being able to do that just to, again, say, like, hey, I see you. I want you to be a part of this, and I want you to equally go through this experience.

Erin: Right. Yeah, that is tricky. I've been through quite a lot of elearning myself, and I always imagine someone who is vision impaired going through it and how their experience would not be even remotely the same as mine going through it. It would have to be, like, a totally different experience. And it would be nice to be able to make something that's totally interactive somehow, right?

Hanieh: Yeah, for sure. 

Erin: Using as many senses as possible or.

Hanieh: Just being able to flip through. So let's say if it's hearing impairment, vision or whatever, it's ADHD or dyslexia, whatever it is. Right. Just being able to click on that one particular aspect and then having the whole course switch over to support that person. Right. The integration for that would be, like, a lot.

Erin: And right now, that's very complex and very expensive to achieve.

Hanieh: Hence having that magic wand.

Erin: The magic wand, yeah. Someone needs to develop that easy button.

Hanieh: The easy button, yeah.

Erin: Maybe we could do that. Why don't we do that?

Hanieh: I love it. I love it.

Erin: Figure it out. We'll make it happen. Make a new technology. Yes. Awesome. So I still struggle with convincing senior leadership teams to make learning a priority in their organization. Have you found any? Have you developed a really strong business case? Or what do you say to folks who are kind of struggling with this? Their employees are barely able to just get their work done they have no time for.

Hanieh: But at the same time, there's this thing of, like. But we also want you to do the learning right off the side of your desk. I have a couple of suggestions for that. I think one would be to actually embed time throughout the person's day that they have time to do so throughout their work day. Right. So it's not necessarily something they have to do after work or on the weekends, because it's not going to get done. It's simply not possible. We only have a certain amount of hours within a workday.

Hanieh: And to have that specific amount of time is wonderful. Whether it's like seminars, whether it's like one on one, whether it's for them to go through e courses when they have that specific allotted time, it makes wonders. Like, I have a friend who has that time within her organization. Right. It is amazing. And it encourages continuous learning. Right. What if they were to also.

Hanieh: Second option would be, what if they were to incorporate this into their quarterly performance reviews?

Erin: Oh, yeah, let's do it done.

Hanieh: No, but if it's something that, if they really want this done right, then how are they being accountable for it? Right.

Erin: And their managers should be accountable to it, too. Right?

Hanieh: Absolutely. So when it's part of that and you can say, hey, I did this many hours, and these are the results. Then again, the accountability piece is behind it, too. And the third option, which I recently was speaking with a client about this, was let's create like a sponsorship program and by sponsor here, meaning you're going beyond performative actions and you're actually sponsoring someone who, you know, has the skills and the abilities. But hey, here's the door that's actually open that you might not necessarily have access to. Right. So you could do this with your senior executives. Right.

Hanieh: Sponsor a junior member of your team and work with them. What is that skill that needs to get them from a to b or z or whatever. Right. That significantly changes the whole playing field. Now you have boosted their confidence. Now they're learning from one of the C suite. Wow. It really changes things when.

Hanieh: Sorry, like multiple thoughts going. But when folks feel, again, beyond money and time off, when they feel valued, when they feel like there's a sense of strong belonging. Right. This is how you're building your culture, you're building morale.

Erin: And I know you preach the benefits of onboarding, and I think that this is. Yeah. And this is something that a lot of organizations don't do well, and a few of them do it really well. Most of them do it poorly. But in terms of onboarding, what do you think the benefits are to culture specifically?

Hanieh: We'll stay. You need an employee to stay at least 18 months for you to make your money back. Right. Simply because of the whole recruiting process, what you put into the person, you need at least 18 months to be able to make your money back, right? So if you lose someone before then, you're losing money. That's what it comes down. So it's like, how are you supporting this person? How are you making sure they fit in and feel comfortable with everything we're all going through, what we are all navigating nowadays, it goes beyond just that initial, hey, you can come sit with us at lunchtime. It goes beyond that. What kind of plan have you set up for them? Is there some type of a buddy program? Is there some type of a check in system? How are they constantly made to feel like they belong? Right? How are we doing that? It might seem like trivial or really cheesy, but people, at the end of the day, it's, how are you feeling?

Erin: I'd love to talk a little about the project you just told me about right before we started recording. You're launching an e-academy. E-cademy, you called it.

Hanieh: Yeah.

Erin: Tell me all about it.

Hanieh: What's the vision?

Erin: The vision.

Hanieh: So it's going to be e-Tree Academy. Again, I think with everything going on in the world, being able to have access to content where not only are folks learning really good content and they're acquiring new knowledge, but they can see themselves in the SME, they can relate to the SME. They're like, oh, this is this person who maybe looks like me and has the same sort of lived experiences as me, and I can relate to this person and therefore I'm more engaged and interested to hear what they say. I think the beauty of it is that one thing I'm being very intentional about is the areas that I want to develop the e-courses in. So I have five different pillars that I want to touch. I will most definitely share that with you when it gets launched, but I'm going full force. I have access to awesome SMEs subject matter experts.

Erin: That's awesome. Do you also support with synchronous learning, with classroom learning or workshops and things?

Hanieh: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, I also lead workshops again, depending on the company or organization, it's very customized to what their needs are. But I work a lot on different power skills, aka soft skills.

Erin: I love that you said power skills I like because I call them humanistic skills, but I despise soft skills. Like, come on. Yeah, it's like the hardest thing.

Hanieh: And it's always the differentiator between folks who really are able to connect with others. Everyone can acquire the hard skills, right? But it's really these power skills that set you apart, right?

Erin: Yeah.

Hanieh: So that's why I like being able to call it that. And I do lead workshops on that too. And depending on what the company or organization needs, I meet with them and let's do a little quick needs analysis and go from there.

Erin: Awesome. What's your favorite thing to teach?

Hanieh: I like talking about emotional intelligence. I love doing public speaking. Like, how do you public speak? People are petrified. And that's like the number one fear, how to do public speaking. Conflict resolution, giving feedback. I'm doing one in a week on that. Yeah, I can do the topics.

Erin: Yeah, those are great. And they're so important right now. It's like, yeah, we're trying to build continuous improvement learning cultures.

Hanieh: Yes.

Erin: These are so important.

Hanieh: For sure. Yeah, we're all in it together. Don't forget, when we support one another, we grow with one another. That's my biggest thing in life and everything. And let's do more collaboration versus competition. Let's try to be kind and respectful to each other. Like kind of some of the basics. Kind and respectful.

Hanieh: That's where we're at with everything going on.

Erin: Oh my gosh, preach. But the basics are so not basic, right?

Hanieh: No, it's not. It's literally no longer even basic.

Erin: It's like, has it ever been basic?

Hanieh: No. And it will always set you apart. You're never alone in everything you're going through. There's always someone outreach. If you need anything, don't isolate yourself. I know it's really hard. Just like saying all the things right now. Right? But don't forget, you're never alone in this.

Hanieh: And that when we support one another, we grow with one another.

Erin: Awesome. I love that message. Thanks so much for joining me today, Hanieh.

Hanieh: Thank you for having me.

Erin: Thanks again to Hanieh Khoshkhou, the founder of e-Tree Group, for joining me today. And I think it bears repeating. When we support one another, we grow with one another. If you'd like to get a hold of Hanieh or anybody from the e Tree group for custom e learning solutions, you'll be able to find their email address and website address underneath the podcast script today. That's all for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. 

---

Connect with Hanieh Koshkou at:

hanieh@etreegroup.com 

https://etreegroup.com/

Erin Patchell: All right, everyone, welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose, and all the great things that make our work inspiring and purposeful. And today we have a fantastic guest with us. It's Ange McCabe from Intuity Performance. Ange is the CEO. She's passionate about elevating leaders, business owners, and teams through her whole person performance, coaching, training, and facilitation, and does a lot of other things as well. And I will introduce even more of Ange's bio in a minute. But, Ange, why don't you say hello to everyone and let them know kind of what we're chatting about today?

Ange MacCabe: Fantastic. Yes, I'm Ange McCabe, CEO and co founder of Intuitive Performance. I'm so glad to be here and to chat with you today, Erin, about all things leadership and entrepreneurship. So ready to dive in deep.

Erin Patchell: Fantastic. So drawing from a decade of experience helping individuals and teams in tech, health, and NGOs to reach their fullest potential, ange is here to revolutionize how people lead. She has an innovative AI SaaS platform through which she's championing the next era of emotionally intelligent leaders, equipping them with life changing tools for success and growth. She's a performance coach, ICF certified Facilitator assessor in disc and EQI, and an HR practitioner. Like, tons of awards. You are pretty spectacular. Tell us something that we can't see on your resume.

Ange MacCabe: Thank you, Erin. As you're speaking, I'm like, wow, that sounds so great, and I'm also human. So about me is that I'm fortunate enough to be a mom of an amazing ten year old boy. He's definitely a driver force for me, and my biggest life lesson I'm sure we'll get into in my spare time, I love to coach our under 16 AAA hockey team. And what we do is we focus in on performance habits and emotional intelligence for younger adolescents. So that has been amazing as well. I'm an avid hiker. I live in Nova Scotia, so close to the ocean for all seasons, essentially, and really enjoy spending time connecting with like minded individuals.

Ange MacCabe: So happy to be here.

Erin Patchell: I'm so happy for you to be here. Your work is very inspiring. The fact that you focus on emotional intelligence, and I have a little bit of that in my own background as well. I think that's really interesting that you take that approach. I love that you're working with hockey teams. I'm a hockey mom as well, so I really appreciate that. From that perspective, I'm very curious about what has inspired you to do the work that you do today.

Ange MacCabe: I feel like there's always two facets. Like, people in general, generally speaking, are like onions. Right there's, that professional. Here's what I should say from a PR perspective. And then there's the personal. Here's what really lights my fire. So I'll tell you both in the sense of transparency of your podcast. So knowing essentially what drives me is that I know that myself and my team here at Intuitive Performance and Emotive, Inc.

Ange MacCabe: We're creating something that serves leaders and individuals to be in a better place than they were prior to meeting myself and my team. And that's a thing that really keeps me motivated. It's seeing individuals confidence grow. They're gelling more with teams, there's more success, productivity, et cetera, et cetera. So leaving them in a better space or place than when I found them. What's near and dear to my heart is, of course, my son. Like I said, he's been my largest life lesson and he has really shifted my lens on the world and how I'm perceiving things. I know that you're a mom, too, Aaron, so you could probably attest that your lens motivators.

Ange MacCabe: A lot of that shifts when you have children. And then also hearing him say that he's proud of me and his ability to express himself are my personal measures for success.

Erin Patchell: Oh, yeah. Children change everything through their eyes. Seeing yourself through their eyes kind of just makes you want to become a better person.

Ange MacCabe: Absolutely.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, for sure. But it's kind of traumatizing, too, to be honest. It really is on those days where.

Ange MacCabe: You're just like, I don't really want to adult, Erin. I don't.

Erin Patchell: I sometimes just not I'm just not doing it, so and that's I what.

Ange MacCabe: I started doing when my son turned five, because he's going to be a debater. Absolutely. Like, he already is one now and he questions a lot. And so what I started to do was to tell my son I'm putting myself on a timeout when I know that I've hit a limit and I know that he's just genuinely curious or he wants to push limits so that he can understand cause and effect, all that great stuff. So there's been times where I'm like, how can I really show up for him instead of just thinking about where my head's at right now? So, yeah, I take time out.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. And we do the same thing at work probably, too, right? Because people are people everywhere. We can't get away from them, but we love them. That's the same philosophy, I think, that we both have. And the reason why we do our work is because we love people at the end of the day, and we believe in people and we want the best for people. Absolutely. How has your philosophy evolved over time?

Ange MacCabe: Or has it I think that my philosophy, depending on what we mean by philosophy specifically, but I believe that I have the opportunity to evolve as a person in a continuous manner. It's not just a start and stop journey for me, it's more of that infinity symbol, right? Like, you might take pauses or breaks, maybe sometimes you fall off the wagon, but it's really about looking outwards as to what can we continually grow to be that better person or elevate ourselves. So I'm very much about walking the walk and talking the talk when it comes to that whole emotional intelligence space. So I'm actually in a coaching mentor group right now to continue to advance certifications, et cetera, trying to do something once a year, whether it be CEO group, whether it be looking at different associations to be a part of, et cetera. But personally, what I make sure of is that I have individuals around me that will also speak from a true place of candor. Because it's really important to understand my own learning edges, not just from my own lens. But to your point that you said how you see yourself and your children, you can also see yourself as a CEO amongst your team. And so really building that safe culture to get feedback for people to identify the things that they love and the things that I have an area of growth and accepting the same, I think that's what continuously helps me to elevate.

Ange MacCabe: And that's kind of my philosophy around evolving, essentially. So from a business perspective, I feel like in the first year, you're really just focusing on building that thing. It's not so much about how am I showing up, but how can I survive? And for our situation, we opened our doors a week to the day, the first round of COVID essentially. So resiliency and grit were the theme of our first year. And it panned out well for us. We're really excited, fortunate, abundant with opportunities. So for us, it's really focusing in on things like making sure now to look at things from a more strategic perspective. And then I also feel like we're straddling not just strategy, but how am I showing up or how am I growing as a CEO? Right? Because essentially my thought process is I want to work myself out of a quote unquote job, definitely to be able to really impact a larger amount of people.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. I'm curious if you had a moment or a series of moments where you realized that your philosophy was around this kind of continuous improvement concept, did you have any AHA moments?

Ange MacCabe: That's a great question, a great follow up question. I feel like I stumbled through it, to be totally honest with you. It was like, okay, here's a learning opportunity. Okay, I got humbled. Okay, I was celebrated here. But it really became intentional for me when I started asking myself the question, what is my purpose? And that was when I was in my late 20s ish So still working, still full time employed. And I started questioning a lot of things like, is this the right place for me? Is this the job that I love? What do I want to be when I grow up and just surrounding myself with different topics or areas of interest to express my growth. So for me, I would say that light bulb turned on probably around 29, 30.

Erin Patchell: As an entrepreneur, I'm going to move on to the entrepreneurial talk because you're the CEO of Intuity Performance. I'm an entrepreneur. We have a few things in common that way. For me, I have no sense of balance whatsoever. There's nothing in my life that is balanced. I try to practice integration as much as I can, so if I have something going on the day, there's no shame, I do the thing. If it's personal, whatever. If I want to have a nap, I can.

Erin Patchell: A lot of the time I am working weekends, I am working evenings, I'll work whenever I'm inspired, et cetera, et cetera. But I am curious about other entrepreneurs kind of modus operandi when it comes to this sort of thing. What's your philosophy around balance?

Ange MacCabe: Quite similar, like you're saying a lot of the same words. And I would add that I think we need to omit the word balance because it's an unrealistic expectation that things are going to be equally weighed so that something doesn't fall. And then what happens? Right? Our imposter comes up. We're hard on ourselves, almost critic, et cetera, et and that really happened to me in my first year of business. And I hit, like I would say, a semi burnout. It wasn't like a full burnout, but I was putting too much pressure on myself. I could see my son turning more to his NAN for help, et cetera, et cetera. And that slowed me down to look at it from the perspective of, hey, there's more to life than just work or that purpose.

Ange MacCabe: It's really about integration. And in the first year it was funny because I treated myself like an employee. Like, I clocked in at seven in the morning and I clocked out at five, and then when my son went to bed, I was clocking back in at eight and then clocking out at ten. And so it took me a while to understand that whole concept of integration, but I think I have it down somewhat pat now in a sense that it's really about the opportunity of looking at things based on priorities. And so I've been more disciplined in understanding, okay, what are the top three priorities that I have for my passion? I e work for that week? What are the top three priorities that I have for my health? Making sure that I'm sleeping, eating, exercising when can and then, of course, family. So obviously I'm human. There's definitely opportunities for growth and further integration, but it's something that I try to keep top of mind or live to myself often, so I don't lose sight of that.

Erin Patchell: So integrating the concept of emotional intelligence into we feel, how do you feel know as your emotional intelligence of you're gaining a maturity?

Ange MacCabe: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's on point, Erin, in the sense that when you have higher levels of emotional intelligence, whether organically, stumbled upon or intentionally, you have lower levels of stress, higher levels of confidence, and you're able to manage things from a place of pressure versus stress. So that's one piece of it. The other piece of it, too, is the level of empathy I have for myself is substantive now than it ever has been. And when I say that, it's not like, oh, poor me, I deserve something. It's more so like, hey, you know what? You gave that your best shot. Here's what you can learn from it.

Ange MacCabe: When we're rested, we'll go back to this. Right? So it's multifaceted in the sense of when you focus on emotional intelligence and its growth, it seeps not just into your professional world or leadership or athleticism, but also your personal life. And then it impacts the way that you parent. It impacts the way that you partner with your loved ones, et cetera.

Erin Patchell: I would like to talk about your SaaS platform. Is there something you're willing to talk about?

Ange MacCabe: So in full transparency, we're currently at our MVP stage, Motive. So the company name is Motive Inc. And what we're doing is we're looking to develop emotionally intelligent humans. And the whole premise of this concept is that we're going to be hopefully, knock on wood first to market with an actual emotional intelligence AI coach. And that's not to replace coaching, but rather to utilize it as a strong tool with coaches. So the intention is that instead of growing, which we know statistically and have experienced with many of our clients over the past three, four years, of an increased delta of emotional intelligence when you focus on it. So meaning that you can grow your emotional intelligence or the subsectors by 20% kind of geeking out here, Aaron. So tell me if I'm going too far offline here.

Erin Patchell: We are a full geek here. Don't worry. Keep going.

Ange MacCabe: Okay! So, noticing that basically you can grow your emotional intelligence if you focus on it through the year or consistently, I should say. What would that habit look like if it was powered by AI? And what we've seen in testing so far, we're in the alpha testing stage of a demo type thing. And what we're seeing is that what we could coach in an hour can be accomplished in 15 minutes. And it's not to say that we want to speed through things or take away the quality, but rather it gives a very safe space in the sense of knowing that only your coach is going to see this. It gives you almost a playground. And then also, too, it's going to give accessibility to people that normally wouldn't have the means or knowhow with a coach because we strongly feel that everybody should have the opportunity to have access to a coach. Right? So we're really inspired and excited about it, humbled by the tech journey and can't wait to break into the community and really spread our wings there.

Erin Patchell: Well, I will advocate for this. You just let me know how I can help because I think this sounds amazing. Seriously, what's the lead time look like to market here? What are you looking at?

Ange MacCabe: So right now we're bootstrapping it. So TBD, if I'm being totally transparent, hoping that we have maybe some listeners or some individuals that are super excited to help us get off the ground, because we're really looking to minimize risk around costs and expedite delivery. Because we know that there's a lot of people in the market right now looking at doing similar, if not the same things.

Erin Patchell: Okay, so funding. You're looking for funding? Awesome. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, let's put it out there. We're looking for funding. Does not hurt to... I think this is like, you know, I'm a coach, I'm an emotional intelligence practitioner. I also have a husband who's in software technology, and I'm very interested and curious about it. Although I don't do a whole lot of work on the tech side of things, I'm an avid user of technology. So I think this could be very cool. And I love micro learning platforms, which it sound like this is kind of a bit of a micro learning platform, right?

Ange MacCabe: Absolutely. So, for example, a lot of coaching clients will come to intuitive performance to talk about, how do I be a better leader? So it's like this big global question of leader identity. And when we break it down, it's things like those micro learnings how to have difficult conversations. Let's use that for an example. So the AI coach, in between coaching sessions, or even on its own, can help that person take the time and pause and partner with them to ask the appropriate questions based on their profile, past coaching sessions, et cetera, so that they can really start to walk through on their own. That micro learning of difficult conversations because everyone's different in the sense of what is your definition of a difficult conversation and what's difficult for you. So the AI coach will help you unpack that and then also provide appropriate recommendations.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. In real time. In real time, yes, absolutely. I'm having a difficult conversation in five minutes. Shit.

Ange MacCabe: Yes, absolutely. 

Erin Patchell: Yeah. That's brilliant. And much better, I think, than what you could ever hope to get from any of the other AI tools that are currently out there.

Ange MacCabe: Thank you.

Erin Patchell: Very cool.

Ange MacCabe: So we're hoping to hit all 27 eIQ skills, which hasn't been done yet. We know that there's movement in empathy in the healthcare world. There might be some other studies that are out there. Hit me up at Amaccabe@intuitiveperformance.com. If there is, I would love to hear about it. But all this to say is, like, whatever you're going through as a leader, as an athlete, as a woman in leadership, this AI app will help you elevate those skill sets, communication, confidence, understanding, cause and effect. Right. Like, if I say this to Aaron, what does that mean? Because in some circumstances, we don't have a few of those eIQ quotants raised high enough to understand how I'm going to impact someone.

Erin Patchell: I could see this being useful for cultural competency as well.

Ange MacCabe: Oooh.

Erin Patchell: Isn't that a big one?

Ange MacCabe: Yes.

Erin Patchell: If I'm talking to a person and we know that they have a certain cultural context, I can easily see the AI tool being able to handle something like that.

Ange MacCabe: I love that. I think that's beautiful.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. So I guess that leads me to my last question, my last official question. Who knows where the heck we'll go? But how can we build truly inclusive and accessible workplaces - and accessibility, especially because I was recently at an event in Ottawa called Policy Talks and it was all about accessibility in workplace.

Ange MacCabe: Yes.

Erin Patchell: And one of the statistics they threw out there was that while 90% of organizations have some kind of either DEI strategy or DEI objectives, almost only 4% have accessibility included as part of those DEI objectives... which I thought was crazy.

Ange MacCabe: That is crazy.

Erin Patchell: Yeah.

Ange MacCabe: And curious to understand. So when you're talking about accessibility, are you talking about physical accessibility to the workplace?

Erin Patchell: Physical accessibility would be one of the components.

Ange MacCabe: Okay, tell me more.

Erin Patchell: Well, that's a good question. I don't have any more than that. [laughs]

That's the statistic. Well, okay. I can tell you how I would define yeah. In terms of accessibility, for me, it's strength based work environments, building work environments where we can spend more time in our flow states. And we have folks around us who can with complementary skill sets, complementary personalities that can help us and support us in different types of work so we're more focused on what we do well, but then we have other people around us who can help balance us out. There's the cultural component as well in terms of the bums and seats aspect.

Right. Not everyone works well from an office, from nine to five. We all have to adapt. So having a more adaptive work environment or a results only work environment is big part of accessibility as well, and inclusion. And then, of course, the physical work environment and having accessible tools. Accessibility to tools.

Ange MacCabe: Right.

Erin Patchell: Yeah.

Ange MacCabe: It's definitely a deep topic, Erin, in the sense of layering that onion to speak to it on its face, in the sense of physical accessibility, it's really making sure that organizations understand that people are the largest asset that they have. And if the writing is on the wall that we are accessible, then how that shows up in the workplace is if not replicated, but the same in a sense that the way that the bathrooms are designed or the way that there's access or egress from buildings, et cetera, et cetera. From a cultural perspective, I have a different opinion or viewpoint on it. When it comes to the people and culture side of things and addressing DEI, it's extremely important and I think that there's some subcategories that we're really hitting on, but there's not enough attention. And here's why. I actually had the lens lifted for me because originally my thought process was, well, if we increase emotional intelligence, a lot of the cultural pieces will open up for us. Right? And that's not a favorite opinion that's out there right now. And the reason why I say that is because if we understand ourselves and our beliefs and our biases, it makes it a heck of a lot easier to then try to empathize and understand someone else.

Ange MacCabe: So communication improves. I'm preaching to the choir. I know this Erin. Right? So I'm really passionate about that piece of it. And I stumbled upon an individual on my podcast, and she's in DEI for Harvard Business Review. And we went into the green room thereafter, and I hesitated in having a debate about emotional intelligence being the crooks of cultural competency and opening up that DEI framework.

Erin Patchell: Really?

Ange MacCabe: So it's not just a checklist, because that's what kind of saddens my soul is. A lot of companies want to do well with it, but they don't know what to do, so therefore it turns into a checklist, and then wrong assumptions can be created and or made. So my eyes were open, and the door is blown off for me because what I didn't realize is that organizations aren't looking at their current processes and procedures to identify is there systemic things in here that prevents cultural competency or diversity, equity and inclusion. And so I think it's two pronged. One, from an operational perspective, it's really getting honest and open within organizations to understand our processes and what is the lens on culture. Right? So in that particular example, in some circumstances, they had publicated more white written articles for HBR than African American or black. Right. So that's a systemic thing.

Ange MacCabe: So what do they need to to instead of just raise it up, they need to change the way that they're doing the operations and the way that they're looking at things and does it make sense and what are the topics that they're writing about? And by the way, there needs to be a Quotant where there's equity in the types or the diversity of authors that are being put forth. And that's the great work that they're doing. And I totally am behind that and subscribe to it because it's important to look at your operations as well as the people behind your operations. So we have that eIQ perspective and a different look at operations. I think to me that's what really DEI and accessibility ought to look like, because that falls into the psychological safe environment and starting to think more innovative. Because if you don't have trust and your roots there, you can try as hard as you want and throw tools and processes at things. You're not going to get any further ahead with innovation.

Erin Patchell: Everything's connected.

Ange MacCabe: Definitely, yeah.

Erin Patchell: It's interesting because I'm terrible at focusing. I have ADHD, and I'm kind of all over the place, but in my mind, everything's a contingency. Everything's connected, and you just very eloquently, I think, described a big part of that in terms of the dei and accessibility. So how all of those little pieces are connected. Yeah. Thanks for that.

Ange MacCabe: Oh, my pleasure.

Erin Patchell: Okay, so if folks are listening to this today, and they would like to get a hold of you and they have any questions about any of your work or your podcast and what's your podcast called again? Remind me?

Ange MacCabe: Our podcast is The Human Side of Business Podcast.

Erin Patchell: Amazing. The Human Side of Business. I love that. So your work The Human Side of Business Podcast, or even if they're interested in your AI SaaS platform, which they should be for anyone listening, how can they get a hold of you?

Ange MacCabe: Yeah, for sure. So they can find me on LinkedIn under Ange MacCabe or they can email me at info@intuityperformance.com.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. And I will include the links. If you look in the bottom of the podcast script, I'll include some links as well, in case anyone is looking for. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Ange MacCabe: Yes, my pleasure. Erin and I look forward to continuing chatting.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely, yes.

Ange MacCabe: Take good care, everyone.

Erin Patchell: Thanks again to Ange McCabe for coming on the show. She is absolutely wonderful. Definitely check her out at intuitiveperformance.ca. For the end of this episode. I was looking for a quote that inspired me. And this is what it is by Ralph Marston. "Your destiny is to fulfill those things upon which you focused most intently, so choose to keep your focus on that which is truly magnificent, beautiful, uplifting, and joyful."

That's it for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

[Outro Music]

Erin Patchell:  If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist. CA P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T CA. Or on most social media platforms at Positivist Group. Have a beautiful day at work.

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Follow Ange MacCabe at:

https://www.intuityperformance.com

https://www.linkedin.com/company/intuity-performance/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ange-maccabe-67a07616/

Erin Patchell: Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. Today we have Aaron Arkin with us. Say hello, Aaron.

Aaron Arkin: Hello.

Erin Patchell: Aaron is the Director of Insomnia services with Careica Health. He's also a registered psychotherapist and registered polysomnographic technologist and focuses on behavioral sleep issues such as insomnia. Aaron uses a number of tools, including cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT to help people overcome sleep problems. And Aaron, this couldn't come at a better time because I'm exhausted and I haven't been sleeping well these last couple of weeks. Definitely not as well as I should be, and so this conversation couldn't be more timely.

Aaron Arkin: Good. Well, I'm glad to help. I know a guy.

Erin Patchell: You know a guy? Yeah, you know a few guys, probably, and gals. And I know this isn't just a relevant conversation for me, but definitely as well for a lot of the other folks who listen to this podcast, who are regular folks, entrepreneurs, business leaders, it doesn't seem to matter. I think we all have an enormous amount of stress on our plates these days, and getting good sleep is, I think, the foundation, and I think you probably agree.

[Intro Music]

Aaron Arkin: Wouldn't argue with that. And one thing that I always say about sleep is that there really isn't a population that's exempt from having sleep issues. There's no age, gender, socioeconomic status, profession that's going to prevent you from having an issue with your sleep at some point in your life. So it is really quite universal, and everybody sleeps, and many people at times have problems with their sleep, and often they go unrecognized, or at least untreated.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about yourself and something that I can't find on your resume or in your bio.

Aaron Arkin: Sure. I've been in the industry for quite a while. I started down this road as an academic. I was a psychology major, and I signed up for a third year psychology course in research in psychology, where they would pair you with a professor and you would learn how to go about doing psychological research.

And the professor who they paired me with and this was at Trent University when I was an undergraduate there, studied the relationship of sleep to learning in memory, something I knew nothing about and I found so fascinating. I read everything I possibly could, and I learned so much about this mystical world of sleep and its relationship to memory. And ever since then, I've been hooked. 

I finished a fourth year thesis. I found work in my field fairly quickly after I graduated, and I've been pretty immersed in the field since 1998 now.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, I can tell that you have a real passion for this topic.

Aaron Arkin: It's interesting. It's interesting to me, but it's also pretty universal. As I had mentioned earlier, I can't go to a social event without somebody finding out what it is that I do professionally that doesn't bombard me with questions. And I love talking about it because part of my mandate is to educate and make people aware of the issues of sleep and how we can help people sleep better.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. I always feel bad being that person when I'm at networking events and I find there's a doctor or someone like yourself who's an expert and you just can't help it going down that rabbit hole. But... glad to hear that you're not totally opposed to it.

Aaron Arkin: Absolutely not. No, I enjoy doing it. It just makes me better at talking about it. And if it makes the difference with somebody learning a little more about their sleep and how they can help sleep better to improve their daytime performance, then why not?

Erin Patchell: Awesome. So what are the typical challenges that you see for people like me. Like regular folks or people who think they're regular folks. What kind of work do you do on the regular?

Aaron Arkin: So I find the challenges are twofold. So there's almost like a systemic challenge where people that I work with or people who have discussions about sleep, most people don't really and I don't want this to sound with any conceit, but people don't really know very much about their sleep. They go into a bed, they close their eyes, hopefully something happens, and then seven or 8 hours later they get out of bed and off they go.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, we're generally unconscious, literally.

Aaron Arkin: Exactly. Well, conscious is a whole different can of worms which we'll talk about.

Erin Patchell: Fair enough.

Aaron Arkin: But the more that you can educate people about the basics of sleep and the processes that affect our sleep and how much you should be getting and what influences our sleep, the more you can explain people to people how it works. The more of an understanding that they have and the easier it is for them to be able to make some of the positive changes in this behavior.

So conceptually, that's one of the challenges that I meet with people. And then at a more personal level, one of the things that I find, or at least some of the most common symptoms of people that I work with are people who either have a hard time falling asleep, returning to sleep after an awakening and maintaining their sleep, or ruminating thoughts towards sleep. They lie in bed and they can't turn their mind off or it's after dinner, it's 8-9:00. They're getting a little bit anxious about having to go to sleep if they know they're not going to sleep well. Those are some of the common complaints of people that I see.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, it's true that when you get into that vicious cycle, there can be a lot of emotions around that for sure. And a lot of anxiety. I've definitely felt that myself, where it's like a trepidation, like am I going to sleep tonight? Is something going to wake me up? For sure. And the older I get and with changing hormones and things like that as well. I think that there's a lot of factors... children and all the things that we deal with.

Aaron Arkin: Certainly, and that's very common. And that's another thing that some people aren't necessarily aware of, is how common some of these sleep issues are. People find that they have this problem and that they're unique or that they're on this island and no one else has these same issues and no one can really help them with it. But that's really far from the truth.

Not to brag, although I'm going to brag. I'm an excellent sleeper. I crawl into bed, I lie down, I'm very comfortable, I don't have fancy pillows or fancy sheets or anything like that. And I drift off to sleep fairly effortlessly.

And that effortlessness is what people should be experiencing with their sleep. They shouldn't have to try to sleep. The harder you try to do it, the more challenging it becomes. It should be effortless, and that's how we would be receiving the benefit of the behavior of sleep.

Erin Patchell: So, how does the quality of sleep I mean, our podcast is generally about leadership development, learning, workplace challenges. So, how does the quality of your sleep influence your ability to perform, learn, adapt or thrive in a professional environment, would you say?

Aaron Arkin: I think it's probably, if not the most important component of being able to do so. Because if you don't sleep well, if you have poor quality sleep, the issues you'll experience during the day are deficits in mood and performance. And it's those deficits that make it more challenging for you to be at your best during the day. One of the functions of sleep is to do exactly that is to fuel your daytime performance. You're supposed to get good quality sleep at night, which leads to improved daytime performance. So you can be the best that you can be, tire yourself out, crawl into bed, get some sleep, get some good quality sleep, and do the same thing over again the next day as consistently as you possibly can. It's the sleep that fuels that daytime performance. And when you don't sleep well or you don't achieve that good quality sleep, that's where you'll see the deficits in the performance and in the mood the next day.

Erin Patchell: Do you typically get a lot of professionals who are working with you?

Aaron Arkin: It's really hard to say. It does run the gamut. I've seen clinical psychology professors that will seek my help, or physicians. So again, there's no real pigeonhole in terms of who it is that comes to see me. I do find that my client base does skew a little more female than male. Whether that's because females are more likely to seek help for some of these issues, perhaps I'm not entirely certain.

But there's no again age, socioeconomic status, profession, stage of life where someone is that I tend to see most often. I do see a lot of younger mothers with younger children as often as I'll see retired folks, as much as I'll see 20 somethings that are either between jobs or finish school and just starting a career and are having to adjust. So again, there's really no one who's exempt.

Erin Patchell: I wonder what prevents somebody or why don't we talk about this more? When I had the idea to have you on the podcast, it was because I hardly ever hear about this when it comes to in other podcasts, in conversation, in the trainings that we do in corporate training, rarely do we talk about sleep and it feels like I think you said earlier, it feels like it's such an important building block. Maybe it's the building block. So why do you think we don't talk about it?

Aaron Arkin: A tough question to answer, but it's often something that we don't necessarily pay much attention to or if we find that we're deficient in it, it's not necessarily something that we seek help for. Oftentimes you'll hear about the three pillars of health being diet, exercise and sleep. And most people are familiar enough with how to eat properly. No one's eating a cheeseburger thinking that they're eating really well. Most people understand the importance of physical activity and to be fit and to be active. But that third pillar, the sleep, seems to really get swept under the rug a little bit and slowly but surely I think we're starting to see an increase in the intention to people recognizing their sleep and part of that is due to technology. But I think the more that we can start to look at this, especially from a primary care level, the more we'll start to see some increased benefits from it.

Erin Patchell: I can kind of understand if someone has sleep apnea that that might be more difficult to understand or unravel or to diagnose potentially. But something like insomnia, which is where you work, it seems like you kind of have insomnia or you don't have insomnia to me. Is that true? Wouldn't you be able to self identify that a little bit more easily?

Aaron Arkin: True. One of the clinical definitions of insomnia is someone who has difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, returning to sleep three times a week for a period of three months. Interesting, which is a fairly vague description or definition. I'm of the mindset that if you don't feel that you're sleeping well or if you feel that you don't see the benefit of a night of sleep and you're dragging during the day, you're not at your best during the day. That's reason enough. You don't necessarily need a clinical diagnosis to decide to get in shape and join a gym. You don't necessarily need a clinical diagnosis to decide, you know what, I'm going to eat more healthily and I'm going to see a nutritionist or dietitian.

Same reason if you don't think that you're sleeping well, that should be reason enough to seek help. Something like obstructive sleep apnea, which is a physical sleep disorder. There's some great ways to diagnose it fairly simply done. There's some fantastic treatments out there, and we can see the difference with that fairly quickly. With something like insomnia, which is more of a behavioral sleep issue, I can't flick a switch or push a button and make it better tomorrow. It takes a little bit of time, but through the programs that we put together, the idea is not only to help your sleep in the short term, but to educate people on the strategies and techniques and skills so they can utilize those same strategies six months, five years down the road if they have similar issues that might come up again.

Erin Patchell: I mean, by that definition, I bet there are so many people listening to this, thinking I meet those criteria and I would never have considered myself to have insomnia. I'm probably up there for sure. It never would have crossed my mind.

Aaron Arkin: The numbers are pretty stark. A study came out from the Strong researchers in Quebec who determined that upwards of 60% of people who visit their family doctor display signs or symptoms of having insomnia. Part of the challenge is having our physicians ask those questions. Not only that, but also knowing how to treat them properly. Because prescribing somebody a sleeping pill isn't the recommended treatment for people that are having these issues. And that treatment is something called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And one of the problems with that is that there's so few practitioners across this country and across the world that it's really harder to be able to seek treatment. So part of what it is that I'm doing professionally is how we can help educate these people and bring the information out to the masses so we can offer some of these treatments and have treatments that are available at a larger scale to more people, as opposed to just simple one on one therapy.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. I have taken psychotherapy, I've taken CBT and some other modalities, and I never would have thought to use this. I'm not a professional here, but as a regular person, as a regular person, I never would have thought that CBT could be used for this issue. So, I'm sure that I'm not the only one out there, right?

Aaron Arkin: I would agree with that wholeheartedly. There's so many people exactly like you, regular person, who has sleep issues now and again, or maybe somewhat chronically, that would benefit from the cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia specifically. And because it's a behavioral issue, it's the cognition. So your thoughts and your behaviors, which are your actions, which need to be identified, challenged, modified, and then made more adaptable to help you improve your sleep.

Erin Patchell: Oh, yeah. And I mean, I have ADHD, right? And so for me, creating habits is challenging at best, especially like, sleep habits. So for me, and probably many of the other folks who are listening because I do tend to attract other people who happen to have ADHD. We don't want to sleep because it's not fun. It's a lot more fun to read or to get zoned into something, right. So you're totally bang on, I think, when you say it's a behavioral issue and it's something that we do have some control over, whether we like it or not.

Aaron Arkin: Certainly. And with sleep, to some degree, there's almost a bit of a built in biofeedback mechanism where if you're trying to lose weight, you do the behaviors. You hop on a scale, and you see that number. If you're trying to get in shape, you go to the gym, you run cardio machines, or you lift weights, and you can see the benefit, your clothing fits you differently. With sleep, that benefit isn't necessarily so physical. It's really behavioral and mood and performance. So if you find that you go through the sleep interventions and you have more energy during the day, and maybe you're a little less irritable to your partner or your family or you're not as forgetful as maybe you once were, that's that biofeedback. And the more that you do it, the more you start to see that benefit, the better you feel and can reduce some other behavioral symptoms too.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. And all those things that you just said are very relevant in the workplace as well. Yeah, absolutely.

Aaron Arkin: One of the benefits of sleep, of course, as I mentioned, is mood and performance. And if you're a better worker and you're a better employee and you're a better coworker, there's benefits to that as well.

Erin Patchell: Definitely. Um, so other than, obviously, the daytime tiredness and exhaustion, you knowing that I know that I've stayed up too late one night or whatever, and that I might be tired the next day, that kind of thing, what are the other behaviors, the common behaviors that you just touched on a little bit? If we could go a little deeper into that, I'm curious. What are the other behaviors that you commonly see when folks are not sleeping well?

Aaron Arkin: Sure. So one of the questions I ask on my assessment is, does difficulty sleeping ever impact your mood or performance the next day? And some of the common answers I receive, the number one answer I get to that question is irritability. There's irritable the next day. They're short tempered. They yell at people in traffic or any of those sorts of things. So irritability forgetfulness brain fog, less sharp. So those are some of the symptoms. And to me, it's always been an interesting dichotomy where you have people who have a physical sleep disorder.

The snoring, sleep apnea folks, they don't get a lot of sleep at night. During the day, they're exhausted. They're fighting to stay awake. They're falling asleep in inappropriate circumstances. And then we have the behavioral sleep people, the people who are suffering from insomnia where similar reduced amounts of sleep, but their daytime symptoms are entirely different. It's not so much that they're sleepy, they're not themselves, they're less sharp, they're forgetful, they're irritable, they're cranky. They're not really a whole lot of fun to be around. So to me, that's always been an interesting dichotomy.

Two different people, similar reduced amounts of sleep, but their daytime symptomology is entirely different. And of course, the treatment for these disorders is different as well.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm imagining that I'm at a leadership level in an organization, and we're being taught to create cultures that are very empathetic with high emotional intelligence, with high customer excellence, and these are all very emotional sorts of behaviors. We've got to be able to control our feelings in the workplace and be able to reach out and pay attention to people and be connected all the time. Right. And I can imagine how this sort of having some kind of sleep issue like insomnia might be even more of a concern now than it was like 20 years ago in the workplace because of the behaviors we're expected to see now.

Aaron Arkin: Certainly, and that's at every level of an organization from an entry level position to the C suite, folks. Because people who are tasked to be making these important company wide decisions, if they're poorly rested or if they're not receiving the benefit of a good night of sleep and it impairs their decision making abilities, then that can have effects completely down the line as well. And that goes in any industry. Look at healthcare. You don't want to have to god forbid, you have to go to an emergency room or have surgery, but you want to make sure that the person who's making that life or death decision isn't doing it because they've been up for 24 hours and their decisions might be a little clouded. You want to make sure that your surgeon is well rested or that that Er doctor has had a really good night of sleep, so they can make the most educated decisions that they possibly can.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. I mean, you brought up ER doctors. There's a chronic... it's a workforce planning... The expectations for doctors are so strange, especially when it comes to shift work and sleeping and long shifts. And this doesn't just go for doctors. There's probably lots of other types of roles as well that are similar, like nurses and other types of shift workers. But how can we have an expectation of performance when simultaneously we're expecting them to work nights, weekends, twelve hour shifts, et cetera? I don't know.

Aaron Arkin: You're absolutely right that the research consistently shows the negative effects of those that are working shift workers. And there's so many professions where shift work is involved in very important decisions that really can have a lot of there's a lot of possibility for mistakes to take place. And you look at the healthcare community with nurses or physicians that are working 24 hours. Look at first responders like the police officers and firefighters. You don't want these people who are working shift work who are either sleep deprived or have been up for 23 hours putting out the fire in your home or making a life and death decision to your health. So shift work again, time and time again has been shown to not necessarily be the best way to manage things.

Erin Patchell: Right? And obviously in some cases you don't have a choice. And probably I expect they're doing as best as they can given all the variables. I would hope. Yeah.

Aaron Arkin: Not that I anticipate we're going to eliminate shift work, but these are all sorts of individuals who would benefit from some sleep education or even some cognitive therapy to help understand how they can manage their sleep when they need to undergo these different types of changes with their routines.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. It's like, what do you have control over and how can we maximize that opportunity? Kind of thing. Yeah, for sure. So I mean, as an employer, am I thinking about people's sleep? I am. One of the first questions I always asked my team was how are you doing? Like, how are you sleeping? Because I think that it's really important and sometimes it's easier to coach people than it is to do it yourself. But I know I think about that. I'm not sure how much other employers think about that and I know we should be thinking about that, but what else can we do besides asking that question how are you doing? How's your sleep? Is there anything else?

Aaron Arkin: You're right. Employees are starting to pay attention to it a little bit. But part of it is really making sure that there's initiatives in place for people that are having those struggles. Whether that's an EAP program, whether that's something within your healthcare benefits that you have access to some sort of sleep programming or sleep testing or sleep therapy. Just making the awareness there. So people and individuals will have access to some of these benefits that they should have available to them, whether it's psychotherapy through their paramedical benefits through their healthcare provider, whether it's reimbursement for their CPAP machines if they were diagnosed with sleep apnea, and at the insurance level, making sure that those who have the disorder have the coverage for these programs. That's a big part of it as well.

Erin Patchell: Do you think that sleep could be built into the culture of the organization?

Aaron Arkin: I think it should be, and I think it could be. I've certainly heard of some organizations that offer nap pods in their office, which sounds a little quirky, but isn't necessarily the worst thing. Your sleep can be reduced for reasons that not necessarily or negative reasons. If you're lying in bed because you're stressed, that's one thing. If you're only sleeping four or 5 hours a night because you have a toddler or you have a sick relative or something, that's another reason as well. So if you do have a reason to take a nap, then that should be supported. It shouldn't necessarily be frowned upon. Go into a quiet room to sit for like 30 minutes in a comfortable chair and get a little bit of sleep to help catch up and make you a little more refreshed.

Aaron Arkin: That should be a beneficial thing. But even workplace wellness awareness should be something that should be on the table as well. Even if it's a lunchtime discussion about sleep by a sleep professional or some sort of awareness that needs to be promoted within an industry.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, for sure. I think for me, just using things as a red flag, if people aren't sleeping well, that can help us diagnose other issues like are you stressed at work? Is it the workload too much? How do we problem solve some things? But are you... are you saying that naps are approved? Is that allowed?

Aaron Arkin: Approved is an interesting term. When I was younger and thought I knew everything, I used to always be with the mindset that oh napping is horrible, you should never ever do it. That just means you're not sleeping right at night. But as I've gotten older and perhaps a little bit wiser, I've started to realize that there are circumstances that prevent you from getting the adequate amount of sleep at night. And if you do need to take some time to take a nap during the day, then take the time to have a nap as opposed to trying to fight through it. And then your body takes that sleep from you when you're not prepared. And that could be even more detrimental like driving a car or giving a presentation or something along those lines. So if your body needs to take a nap, listen to your body take that nap for 2030 minutes.

Aaron Arkin: Try not to let it go much longer than that and that'll give you the energy to be able to go through the rest of the day.

Erin Patchell: Okay, so a limited nap, not like my two hour and a half bare slumber and then you wake up like you're super angry and you want know.

Aaron Arkin: You just eat the whole used to, I used to work for a company based out of Montreal and I live in Toronto so I do that drive back and forth. There'd be sometimes I'd do that drive where halfway through I was starting to struggle and notice that I'm getting fairly sleepy. So I'd pull over at the next rest stop, I'd lock my doors, I'd kick my seat back, 20 minutes later I feel good as gold and I can do the drive and go about my day. So taking the time to give your body the sleep that it needs is going to be helpful so you can continue that performance, right? Yes.

Erin Patchell: So strategically napping is okay.

Aaron Arkin: Yes. If you find that you're taking a two hour nap every day, that could be a clinical sign but if you're finding that you need a 20 minutes nap once every couple of weeks, then take the nap.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. Okay. Awesome advice. Is there any other advice that you would like to give the listeners?

Aaron Arkin: So there's all sorts of sleep tips that come about in typical discussions. I have dozens and dozens of tips that I can give people, but I'm not a big fan of routines in life, and I imagine that the community that you're reaching out to aren't necessarily fans of routines as well, except when it comes to sleep. I find it's helpful to have a bit of a routine when it comes to sleep because that can really increase the quality of your sleep. Doesn't necessarily need to be so regimented, but it also needs to be with the understanding that sometimes we move out of our routine, and that's perfectly fine. If you have a consistent 11:00 to 07:00 sleep schedule, there's going to be times where you stay up late, and that's perfectly normal. There's going to be times where maybe you sleep in a little bit, and that's perfectly fine. Understanding how we sleep and understand how we can manage these sorts of things is really going to lead to future increased quality of your sleep and then again, that daytime performance as well. But if there's literally one sleep tip that I can give every single person around the world is this always try to wake up at the same time every day.

Aaron Arkin: Because waking up at the same time every day is the anchor that's going to start you for the rest of the day. So you can tire yourself out, so you can get a good quality sleep the next day, and so on and so forth. So keeping a consistent wake up time is always the one sleep tip that I would try to give everybody.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that is very good advice and one that I'm trying desperately to get my 18 year old teenage boy named James to take into consideration.

Aaron Arkin: So with 18 year olds and I was an 18 year old once too, I find it can be helpful to maintain a consistent wake up time by providing an incentive. Do something that you can enjoy doing first thing in the morning that'll make that wake up time a little less cumbersome. Maybe it's getting an early workout in. Maybe it's watching a Netflix program that no one else in your house likes to watch. Maybe it's taking the dog for a walk or getting some fresh air. Find something that you can enjoy doing first thing in the morning that'll make that cumbersome wake up time a little less negative for you.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. Yeah. Good tip. And since we're kind of wrapping up, if folks want to reach out to you specifically and learn more about the work that you do and how you can support them with their sleep, how would they get a hold of you?

Aaron Arkin: Sure. So as. The director of insomnia services for Kerikahealth. They can find us on our website, careicahealth.com. You can find lots of different services that we offer there. I'm sure they can reach out to you if they wanted to get my contact information, just to make sure that people are a little more aware of their sleep. And speaking to your family physician if you find that you're having trouble sleeping is always a really great first step to be able to see what other treatment options might be available for you.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. And those pieces of information will be at the bottom of the podcast episode script. If anyone's listening and would like to grab those, we'll leave them there.

Aaron Arkin: Great.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. Thanks so much, Aaron.

Aaron Arkin: Thank you so much, Erin.

Erin Patchell: Excellent, Aaron and Erin, coming to you.

[Laughs]

Thanks again to Aaron Arkin for joining us on the show and remember the Irish proverb: a good laugh and a long sleep are the two best cures for anything.

This is Erin Patchell signing off. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

[Outro Music]

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to, like, subscribe and share this with your friends. You can visit us at Positivist.ca. P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T dot CA. Or give us a shout on any social media @positivistgroup or reach out to me at Erin Patchell.

And have a great day at work.

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Podcast Resources

Careica Health: https://careicahealth.com/insomnia/insomnia-therapy/

Aaron Arkin Linkedin: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/aaronarkin

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose and how these practices can transform our world of work. I’m your favourite weirdo, Erin Patchell. Today we’re going to talk about something I’m surprised it’s taken 35 episodes for me to delve into, and that is how to create a coaching culture.

I have worked in what I would consider a deep coaching culture for about the past ten years, and I believe I’ve made considerable contributions to the foundation and practices we’ve used to totally entrench this philosophy into daily practice and culture. If you’re curious what this means and how this can impact you or your business - stay tuned.

First, let’s get a few preconceived notions out of the way.

Coaching is not “woo” or some kind of magic. It’s very much entrenched in cognitive psychology and behavioral science and there are very good reasons why coaching, when done well, has enormous impacts to people, teams and organizations.

Coaching is not counselling. The common denominator is that both coaching and counselling do both work on belief systems, emotions and self awareness. Coaching is more forward focused and goal oriented whether those are personal or professional goals, where counselling works more on detangling issues from the past that are still affecting you today and goes much deeper into psychological and emotional wellness.

Coaching is not a “pat on the back”. I heard this once from a previous client, and I literally had to take a mindful pause before I said something I’d regret. Coaches are not cheerleaders, there to motivate and encourage people. That is not coaching at all, and certainly not coaching as certified by the international coach federation. In fact, if you’re not in a little bit of discomfort during every coaching session, I’m not sure your coach is really doing their job well. 

So now that we’ve cleared that up - what is coaching?

Directly from the ICF’s website: ICF defines coaching as partnering with clients in a thought-provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential. The process of coaching often unlocks previously untapped sources of imagination, productivity and leadership.

We all have goals we want to reach, challenges we’re striving to overcome and times when we feel stuck. Partnering with a coach can change your life, setting you on a path to greater personal and professional fulfillment.

I would also add, coaching trains our thinking frameworks. Your coach will help you first expand your thinking broadly outward into limitless possibilities. The idea is to remove and detangle the psychological barriers to possibilities first, before going inward and focusing on the highest achievable priority. At all times, the coaching client is in control of their ideas and their actions, to create complete authority and self determination in the process. It is always their choice to choose their own adventure. Over the coaching relationship, as the coaching client achieves milestones - first small milestones - baby steps - and then larger milestones, the client will notice they are gaining momentum toward their goals while also building context, emotional intelligence, confidence and greater autonomy over their own personal story.

There have been numerous studies about the benefits of coaching within an organization, but here are a few.

• In a study conducted by the International Coach Federation, organizations with strong coaching cultures reported a 60% higher level of engagement and 51% higher productivity compared to organizations without such cultures.

• A global survey by PricewaterhouseCoopers found that the mean ROI for companies investing in coaching was 7 times the initial investment, with over a quarter reporting an ROI of 10 to 49 times.

• A study by the Center for Creative Leadership reports that 77% of organizations reported that coaching had a significant or very significant impact on at least one of nine business measures. Leadership competencies and team functioning were most frequently cited as being positively impacted.

• Research from the Institute of Coaching cites that over 70% of individuals who receive coaching benefited from improved work performance, relationships, and more effective communication skills.

• According to a Gallup study, organizations with a strong coaching culture have 60% higher employee engagement compared to those without it. 

There is a reason why the most successful and innovative organizations in the world - Google, Adobe, Facebook, Deloitte, Microsoft, LinkedIn, Airbnb, Spotify - have some kind of coaching program embedded in their organization whether it be during onboarding, for high performing managers, for executives or a peer to peer coaching program.

If you are looking to embed a culture of continuous learning, coaching is practically a non negotiable. 

If you have a little bit of a budget for coaching, start with your CEO and leadership team first.

If you can expand that budget outward, put cohorts of managers together and develop a group coaching program to drive consistency in values, philosophy and approach in their work, break down silos, collaborate and communicate more effectively, use their emotional intelligence and practice both thinking big and then clarify the details.

If you have even more of a training budget, get your managers trained as coaches. Better still, get your sales team trained as coaches.

Let me tell you about my experience. I took my first coach training program with Erickson Coaching International in 2019. At that time, the thought of becoming a professional coach wasn't even a glimmer in my eye. 

I took the program to better understand the coaching solutions that the company I was with offered to clients, how to collaborate better with our coaching team, and to be able to be a better leader in the organization.

Little did I know, that program changed the way I thought about almost everything, and changed the way I actually behaved in real life. It imbued me with a new confidence, patience, resilience and grit. 

I can remember the exact moment when the shift happened. Paul Gossen, our trainer, said "you know you're doing your job, when the client is doing all the work." And while I'm pretty sure that was a tongue in cheek comment, it made me realize that I couldn't force change. I could only hold space and time so the people around me could draw their own conclusions and find their own path to truth (whatever that is). I could demonstrate curiosity and non judgement. I could lead by example to show that we don't have to be afraid of not knowing and we don't have to be afraid of learning; that before we contract our thinking, we need to expand.

I’ve been working with ICF certified coaches for almost 10 years, for a good part of that time directly serving and managing a team of coaches and trainers, and there is a special energy, wisdom, humility and patience that comes with both learning and practicing coaching - because guess what, it’s really freaking hard.

It feels a little bit like a rebirth - so many rebirths after so many small ego deaths in the pursuit of become a worthy coach. Then, one day you’ll surprise yourself. A situation will happen that would normally trigger a cascade of behaviours - something you’ve been really trying to change about yourself but has been stuck to you like glue. Every time the behaviour emerged, you’ve felt a twinge of guilt or shame, but you always shrug it off because there is shit to do - so much to do, all the time. But today, something changed, and you realized that you didn’t react the same way you always were. You were patient, curious, open minded and kind. You demonstrated a coach mindset, and you loved the way it made you felt.

If you are interested in building a coaching culture, my advice would be to take a coaching program yourself, if you haven’t already. There is literally nothing that can create a conviction about coaching than experiencing it for yourself. There is a reason that most people who have been coached are huge advocates for coaching.

The most important thing about a coaching relationship is the literally the coaching relationship. Is your coach the best fit for you? How do you know? Do you feel a trust with them? Are they asking questions that expand your mind and push you outside of your comfort zone?

How do you know if you’re being a great client? Well, great clients are first committed. They want to learn. They are willing to lower their guard down and practice vulnerability. Great clients lean into the discomfort and embrace the suck, as Brene Brown likes to say, knowing and having confidence that it’s through this process that they will come out the other side and see life and make decisions through a new lens.

If you’re a manager, how do you integrate coaching into your practice? Remember that coaches demonstrate curiosity and patience. Coaches resist jumping in to solve their clients problems - we truly believe the client has the inner fortitude to solve their own problems and, in fact, they must solve their own problems in order to grow. But the manager wears more than one hat - you need to know when to be the coach and also when to be the mentor, the advisor and sometimes, the boss.

I have helped literally hundreds of people become coaches, in some capacity, whether it was helping to pick a coaching program or advising them on consulting practices. If you want to explore whether becoming a coach is right for you, give me a shout at erin@positivist.ca or on LinkedIn at linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell and I can send you a long list of informational resources I’ve gathered for folks in your exact situation.

Remember, Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “The only person you are destined to become is the person you decide to be."

This is Erin Patchell signing off - stay weird, stay wonderful and don’t stay out of trouble.

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[Visit coachfederation.com to learn more about coaching and find a professional coach.]

Welcome to 'Weirdos in the Workplace', the podcast where we like to break the conventional norms and forge our new path to authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose with practical solutions. I'm Erin Patchell, your guide through the maze of workplace diversity and accessibility.

Today, we're talking about an audacious and, frankly, idealistic concept: creating a boundaryless  workplace. The concept of a boundaryless workplace is an environment that is consciously designed to eliminate physical, social, and organizational obstacles or - boundaries - that may prevent people, especially those with disabilities, from accessing, participating in, and excelling at work. The goal is to create a universally accessible space that accommodates all employees, enabling them to engage fully, effectively and productively and creatively in their roles. This concept extends far beyond compliance with current standards. 

Stay tuned. [Intro music]

It's a mission that some might say borders on the impossible, because let's face it, the spectrum of human needs is broad. But since when has 'impossible' ever stopped us, right? The idea of a beautiful and seemingly impossible problem is something that has inspired people for millennia and we’ve proven time and time again that we can make the seemingly impossible, possible.

So, let's talk about this conundrum and see if we can come up with an elegant solution to test in the real world. This is a situation where when you’re trying to do right by one team member, you can inadvertently encumber another. How do we turn potential win-lose scenarios into win-win scenarios? How can we choreograph a workplace that celebrates the ebbs and flows and dances with the capabilities, desires, limitations; stretching every person a little bit outside of our comfort zone to slowly grow in our areas of development while maximizing our current abilities and special interests..

When we talk about creating workplaces that are as diverse as the human experience - ethnicities and cultures, disabilities, gender and sexual orientation… we’re talking about intentionally increasing the complexity of our work and nuance in decision making. Why would we ever consider doing such a thing?

In the pursuit of diversity, we often find ourselves at a crossroads. We may find that what is beneficial and supportive of one group may be at the detriment of another group.

How do we weave these conflicting requirements into a tapestry that doesn't just work, but works beautifully for everyone? 

For example, our colleagues with hearing impairments find it helpful to be face to face in person or through Zoom in order to read body language and facial expressions, however individuals with ADHD, cognitive or visual challenges may find video conferences physically challenging or cognitively exhausting and individuals with physical disabilities or pain challenges may find meetings at the office very difficult to attend.

The idea that we’re going to find a solution that is perfectly elegant and removes all discomfort from everyone is totally unrealistic and actually impossible. We need to agree on what is a reasonable amount of discomfort - where is the bar? Even physically capable and mentally healthy neurotypical individuals still struggle to fulfill all their obligations - taking care of their bodies, eating well, getting to and engaging in their work, taking care of their families, taking care of their homes, finding time for friends, finding time for sports and hobbies… are you exhausted? Cuz I am.

Comfort isn’t going to drive us or our companies. We need to find tools that transcend and motivate us past our feelings of discomfort.

But first, what the heck is a boundaryless world?

We’re talking about a world where physical accessibility is intentionally designed into every aspect of our lives. Every person could use the same pathways, entrances, elevators, restrooms, tables - whatever - and workstations are both ergonomic and accessible as needed.

Technologies including websites, software applications, and digital documents, would be standardized to comply with W3C to be usable by people with various disabilities, such as visual or hearing impairments. They would also enable the use of assisted technologies like screen readers, TTY devices and speech to text services. 

Social inclusion starts at the preschool level, with schools that are designed so that all people can participate and cultures that promote collaboration and kindness, with students helping each other to succeed.

In turn, organizations don’t need to promote inclusivity, diversity, and equity because it’s so ingrained in the systems, policies and culture that it’s second nature. The culture is sensitive to  discrimination and fosters a sense of belonging for all employees, while simultaneously encouraging personal and professional growth, getting outside our comfort zones and encouraging discipline and productivity.

Team members aren’t afraid of failure because the organization believes it’s just part of the learning process. The company proactively sets people up for success, making sure that directions are clear and providing mentoring and the checks and balances when individuals are taking on new responsibilities, performing new tasks or need more help. In other words, it’s OK to fail - but creating a safety net so that we prevent catastrophic failure, which is pretty critically important mention. 

Communication methods are adapted to meet the needs of all team members, such as offering sign language interpretation or providing written materials in different formats.

Information is presented in clear, straightforward language, with options for visual and auditory processing, to support individuals with learning or cognitive disabilities. 

Accommodations such as flexible scheduling, work-from-home options, and customized workloads support diverse cognitive and mental health needs. 

Recruitment is designed to be accessible and to attract a diverse range of candidates, partnering with organizations that are specialized to help place people with disabilities into roles that can leverage their strengths and curiosity.

Training and career development opportunities are made accessible and are tailored to grow employees strengths and areas of development.

This is just a little snippet of a vision of what is possible. Can you imagine feeling totally embraced by your organization, knowing that you’re truly appreciated as a human being, knowing that there is a place for you, that it’s safe to bring your full self to work, and that they are invested in growing the spark of possibility that is your potential into a raging fire.

Donald Norman, the author of the Design of Everyday Things and a real pioneer in the field of user experience said, “The real problem is that designers often do not understand the people they are designing for. The result is products and services that do not meet real needs.” and this might be even more true than it is anywhere else when it comes to designing accessible workplaces. We’re each only an expert in our own experience, which is why it’s so important to solicit the opinions of others, specifically the people who matter in any given instance, especially when it comes to products, services, solutions, organizational systems and cultures, that are desiring to become more inclusive. We literally can’t be inclusive in a silo - it’s impossible.

Creating a vision isn’t just fluff. It's about crafting a collective story of 'us', who we are, what we stand for, what we desire more than anything and what we believe we will become in the future because of our hard work. You can build a story where each chapter is as engaging as the last, building over time to an incredible arc. Build a story of imperfection, of figuring it out and stumbling sometimes down the path toward your big hairy audacious goal. The Hero’s Journey.

And there have been many steps already made toward this dream. Legislation like AODA access to ontarians with disabilities act, is a big step in the right direction although it doesn’t go far enough yet. Organizations are redefining their values in a big way to align with concepts like autonomy and self-determination, innovation, transparency and inclusion, in order to put these values into action, policies are being developed to create safer and more flexible work environments, sharing information, collaborating, breaking down silos and hierarchies, and making accommodations the NORM not the EXCEPTION.

We start with empathy, understanding that our shared human experience is a mosaic of unique perspectives. We embrace flexibility, knowing that the strength of the team lies in its adaptability. And we approach every solution with creativity, recognizing that the 'standard' way may not always be the 'best' way.

As we wrap up today's episode, let's remember that 'impossible' is not a fact; it's a challenge. It's a challenge to innovate, to empathize, and to create. Our mission to craft barrier-free workplaces is a journey of a thousand steps, and each step is an opportunity to learn, to grow, and to redefine the very idea of possibility.

Thank you for joining me on this journey. Until next time, keep breaking barriers and building bridges in your workplace. This is Erin Patchell, signing off. Stay weird, stay wonderful, and stay don’t stay out of trouble.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose, and how these qualities lead to more successful and more inclusive workplaces. I'm your favorite weirdo, Erin Pachell, and I'm on a quest to turn business philosophy into business fact. If this isn't your first time listening, you might know that I tend to weave the concepts of strengths based teams and strengths based philosophies into almost everything that I talk about. Because in my mind, it's one of the things that connects these ideas of empathy, inclusion, stress and wellness, agility, design thinking, the future of work - hashtag future of work - performance and profitability all together, it's what I call a "linchpin" concept, and if you get this one right, it will unlock benefits in so many other parts of the organization. It has positive consequences. So this is what we are going to talk about today. Stay tuned.

Positive psychology has a focus on cultivating what is best within individuals and societies, and the ideas dovetail elegantly with the objectives of accessibility, diversity, equity, and inclusion in our modern workplaces. Strengths based philosophies recognize and celebrate every person's unique contributions, which is a core fundamental in the work of DEI and accessibility. When we acknowledge that each individual has unique talents and limitations, companies can tailor their work environments to be more accommodating, ensuring that all employees, regardless of physical or cognitive abilities, can leverage their strengths effectively. This environment not only acknowledges but values differences, seeing them not as hindrances, but as opportunities for innovation and creativity. Remember that the first step in design thinking is empathy, right? So if you want to strengthen diversity, inclusion, and accessibility, you need to get on board with the idea that a diverse cross section of talents, perspectives, and backgrounds is critical, full stop for your organization's success. Folks like me who advocate this style of work, we suggest looking beyond the conventional indicators of ability and potential, like university degrees or perfectly written resumes. Those are two things that are very commonly requested in the professional environment, but are also more often indicators of privilege, family support, and socioeconomic status than they might be of long term potential. So taking the strengthsbased approach naturally leads to more diverse teams, not just in terms of demographic characteristics, but also in thought, problem solving styles and creative approaches.

Diversity and inclusion is the natural consequence of a strengths based philosophy that truly understands and implements its principles. When team members believe that their unique strengths are seen and valued, they experience a sense of belonging and significance within an organization. An inclusive culture is one that not only invites diverse individuals to the table, but also listens to them. It engages with their ideas and gives them the space to shine. And I think we probably all know that by now. A lot of us have seen the posters. But by focusing on what every person does best, organizations can create teams where everyone feels empowered to contribute their best work and can foster a stronger sense of ownership and pride in a collective effort. So in practice, a strengths based approach can lead to policies and practices, such as flexible work arrangements that accommodate different working styles or levels of energy professional development programs tailored to individual growth trajectories and recruitment strategies that look beyond the traditional criteria and uncover a broader range of talents and backgrounds.

So we're trying to make the boxes a little bit bigger and the boundaries a bit more flexible. Ultimately, that positive psychology and strength based philosophies aren't just about feeling good, they're about achieving excellence and high performance through the genuine appreciation for every person as a whole person. Strengths, areas of development, idiosyncrasies and personal dynamics included as managers and as leaders, we really want to focus more on identifying and developing each person's innate talents and strengths, rather than concentrating on improving their weaknesses. And that's really important. And that doesn't mean that we all don't have to improve. We all have developing areas and we all need to put some energy into improving our developing areas or our weaknesses as well as in our strengths. But it does mean proportioning a larger amount of energy towards developing our strengths in a strength space organization. Getting to know your people is an absolute fundamental.

That's how we learn to recognize their strengths and how to support them and how to grow them. Every person has natural abilities that can be leveraged in addition to learning new skills. And if we understand our natural abilities well, they can actually help us learn new skills faster. So, for example, ten years ago I took an evaluation. It's a psychometric assessment tool that I took and it evaluated my natural abilities, different kinds of strengths, motivation, style, personality style and learning style. And one of the things that I learned was that, and I'm a voracious reader and I've been reading my entire life. My parents still tell tales of the bookathons that I used to crush, right? And I didn't learn until I was like 30 years old that actually reading is not my strongest learning channel. My auditory learning is much stronger than my reading.

And so once I learned that I had a more natural ability to learn through listening, I was able to pivot that. And now I almost exclusively listen to audiobooks instead of reading books on paper. And that has significantly improved my ability to remember the things that I'm hearing now. Right? So how do our workplaces and our workflows change when we pivot from correcting weaknesses to amplifying strengths? How does our collective output transform when each person is not only permitted, but encouraged to bring their full selves, their most authentic selves, their virtues and their strengths to their roles? And how does this approach change the way that you work in every single facet of your organization? Let's walk through the employee lifecycle, right from recruitment all the way to offboarding or transition or retirement recruitment. Let's start there. Recruitment selection. So in the traditional approach, you have candidates that are assessed, usually against a standardized set of criteria, which can sometimes overlook unique talents and potential. Because the only thing that you're seeing is the information that you're being provided by them via their resume.

And their resume may neither be evidence of their successes nor their potential. It really depends on how they view themselves and their personal brand and if they've done a lot of self awareness work. And I'll tell you, most people haven't done a lot of self awareness work. And so it's a lot of the time up to the organization to introduce this as a theme. But even before you even glance at a resume, you have to put out a job description or job posting for a role. And a lot of the time you may not even glance at a resume that doesn't meet the most important criteria in terms of the competencies. And that's not to say that competencies are important. They're definitely important, especially when it comes to equity, having a complete set of competencies and understanding exactly how we're evaluating those competencies is really important.

But the strengths based approach also focuses a little bit more on identifying what candidates naturally do best. So character, curiosity and the desire to do the work are also valuable considerations. In addition to those acquired skills and experiences. We know that if somebody has a desire to learn a new skill, they will much more often exceed our expectations if we provide them with a learning environment where they're both supported and pushed outside their comfort zone. So interviews and assessments are designed to uncover that Latin talent and potential contributions beyond the job description. For example, we might use strengths finding tools or behavioral interviews that ask candidates to describe when they have felt most engaged or energized. When it comes to onboarding, the traditional approach is often that new hires receive a fairly standardized introduction to company policies, procedures and tasks. And if we're lucky, the culture, job shadowing and mentoring is often included as well.

But it's usually more task oriented to help the employee get up to speed with their job faster. And so the strengths based approach, the onboarding, becomes much more personalized, with a strong emphasis on understanding the employee at a more personal level, helping the whole team understand how their unique strengths fit and contribute with the company's goals. Mentoring and coaching programs are also very commonplace, and the onboarding process now becomes a training ground, a breeding ground for inspiration, aspiration and potential. And it's often in the onboarding process that employees are introduced to the idea that our success is our success. In strengths based environments, teams support each other. They care about each other's career development, they care about each other's productivity and performance, and they care about each other's health and wellness. Also, when it comes to training and development, the traditional approach, if it exists at all, then some organizations, they barely do any training and development. It's often focused on addressing weaknesses or gaps in skills.

And so the standardized program for employees, they have standardized programs with similar tasks and accountabilities. And honestly, I think in a lot of organizations we're lucky if learning and development exists beyond onboarding. And if it does exist, very often it's like a subscription to coursera or LinkedIn learning, or something like that. And that's about it. When we're developing a strengths based approach to learning and development, like any program, it starts with the commitment to learning. You literally can't take a strengths based approach without a solid learning and development ecosystem and structure. You just can't. The entire philosophy is contingent on growth and development in order to achieve high performance.

It's kind of like a choose your own adventure a little bit. So the only alternative to creating this type of environment, the strength space environment, with the learning and development embedded as a core commitment. The only alternative to this would be to hire people who already possess the skills to do the job, which is what a lot of organizations do for good reason. It's a lot simpler, that's for sure. But you'll never get the same level of creativity, collaboration, innovation and purpose, and you certainly won't be advancing your DEI and accessibility goals. So in our strengths based approach, development programs are tailored to amplify employees'inherent talents and curiosity while still providing opportunities to address those areas of improvement. Employees are encouraged to take on projects and roles that align with their strengths, which enhances both their learning, the absorption of information, and how much they love their jobs. Now, performance management in the traditional approach, performance reviews tend to highlight what went wrong or where the employee needs to improve, right? If you're lucky and your organization is a bit more mature, you may have a more equitable competency based performance management model as a standard that each person is being evaluated against.

If you're even luckier, you'll complete these performance reviews more than once a year, which is a crazy thought for a lot of people. And they'll be used to generate legitimate feedback and used to create a personal development plan. And if you're even luckier, your managers will have some coaching skills and can use the results to support your talent development and career advancement process in your organization. AnD if you're really, really lucky, your organization is not using performance evaluations to coincide with salary reviews, which is always a bad idea. They should always be two separate and disconnected conversations. Now, in the strengths based approach, performance management becomes performance development. Performance management is kind of overrated, to be honest. In a strengths based organization, we don't manage performance per se.

We develop performance. It's a continuous improvement process at the individual level. While we don't ignore areas of growth, performance conversations happen frequently, like all the time, ideally weekly, and center around how employees use and expand their strengths to overcome challenges and achieve their goals. They become coaching conversations. Your success metrics now are way more aligned with output and results when it comes to promotion and advancement, rather than the traditional approach where promotions are often based on tenure, past success and prior roles, mastery of a specific skill set, or who likes you in the organization. Because that happens typically in a strengths based organization. Advancement really is about identifying where an employee's strengths can best contribute to the organization. And this might involve even creating new roles or adjusting existing roles to allow employees to continue to grow their strengths while maximizing their impact and ability to support your customers.

Remember, Albert Einstein famously said, everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. An individual strengths, their job fit, their job and performance, and their employee engagement, their retention and their advocacy for their employer and their loyalty for their employer are all intrinsically connected. Our jobs are not simple anymore. In the last 30 years, jobs have become more and more and more complex, and so it's not surprising that not every single person can do every single job well. We need to be really, really thoughtful about how we're matching roles to specific types of people and like in the last episode, like specific types of personas as well. Tom Rath, the author of Strengths Finder 2.0, said, if you spend your life trying to be good at everything. You will never be great at anything. And that's kind of the philosophy by which strengths based organizations thrive.

And yes, it does make human resources a bit more complicated, that's true. But if you do it well, your organization will thrive. So ask yourself, in your workplace today, do we have the right people doing the right jobs at the right time? How can we make small but highly impactful changes to the work that we're doing and the different workflows and the tasks and accountabilities? Remember, everything's incremental. We don't have to change the world. We don't have to have a revolution. We can just make really small, tiny changes and see how it goes. Most importantly of all, the leadership style that you take with a strengths based organization really surrounds empowerment. We want to empower others to recognize and use their unique capabilities.

Erin Patchell:

We want them to feel like heroes and put them on a stage. Just like Lao Tzu said, a leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say, we did it ourselves. That's all for today. I hope you enjoyed the 33rd episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, diving into strengths based organizations. If you'd like to hit me up, you can email me at Erin at Positivist, Ca Erin at P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T Ca. You can find me on LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram or. I think that's about it.

Erin Patchell:

Until next time, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we explore how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose lead to creating workplaces where people and teams thrive. I'm your host, Erin Pachell, and today we're peeling back the layers of what makes us tick. As entrepreneurs, we all have different strengths and areas where we need more support.

So how do we understand our entrepreneurial personas? How do we leverage them to create high performing and visionary businesses? And how do we make sure our strengths don't become self sabotaging? Let's think about it's. Good day, everyone, and I hope it's a beautiful one wherever you are. So today we're talking about entrepreneurial personas. What is an entrepreneurial persona? Well, it's the unique blend of traits, tendencies and skills that define you as a business owner or business leader. It's how you approach challenges, seize opportunities, and interact with your team.

But here's the kicker. No two personas are exactly alike. There are literally hundreds of tools like the big Five model, Disk, myers, Briggs and Enneagram. You've probably recognized the names of some of these things that can help us gain insight into our personality preferences and natural tendencies. And I'm probably going to offend people who love these personality tests. And I love them too. So don't get me wrong, I do love them. I think they're really interesting.

I think it's interesting that we can kind of analyze ourselves and based on what someone decrees as our personality, it can make us feel a myriad of different emotions. And like I said, I'm going to piss some people off by saying this, but I do think you could almost do the same thing with a Horoscope. I'm a Sagittarian when I grew up, and I don't know if it's a self fulfilling prophecy or not, but I think as a person who read Horoscopes when they were younger, I do feel like I've sort of molded myself into that typical SAGITTARIUS persona. And I'm curious to know if that rings true for you as well. When people tell us we are something, we kind of start to believe it anyway. So the same thing can kind of happen with these personality tests and it doesn't mean that they don't have value. That's the other thing, right? Even the Horoscope has value because as even a young Sagittarian, I would look at it and I would think, oh, that's me. Like I identify with that.

Or oh, that doesn't sound like me at all. But either way, it was helping me think about myself and become more introspective about asking the question, am I that way? So these tools all have different algorithms. In the case of the Horoscope, it's your birthday, right? They have different algorithms that help us compartmentalize and simplify our preferences into a profile that we can use to develop personally and professionally. And frankly, it doesn't matter how accurate they are. It really doesn't. Anything where you're confronting your true self and asking those questions is going to be helpful for you. So I think it's important to remember this is a tool, all that to say. But the real question is, how does better understanding a persona translate into business success? That's what we're here to uncover.

And as I've worked with entrepreneurs, I've created four personas in my mind that I think encapsulate a lot of the different qualities we see in entrepreneurs. And they are the visionary, the strategist, the implementer, and the shepherd. Every person has each of these personas within them at different strengths. Some louder and more of a natural fit and others quieter and perhaps worn only when necessary. You might identify yourself as a visionary or a strategist or an implementer or a shepherd, but no two people within any of these categories are exactly the same. We are all a complex combination of many variables and this combination, all blended together, is your key to success. But embracing your entrepreneurial persona isn't about fitting into a prescribed mold. It's about recognizing your inherent strengths and learning how to amplify them while simultaneously creating environment and culture where your strengths don't become self sabotaging.

Because as different as we all are, and we are different, we also have a lot of similarities. And it's those similarities that we're looking at when we compartmentalize and create mental models like this and personas like this. For example, if your primary influence is a visionary and if you're an entrepreneur, I don't know what the statistic would be, but high probability is what I'm going to say. You're likely brimming with big ideas, always looking ten steps ahead and your challenge. Sometimes the details can slip through the cracks and you tend to continue to layer plans on top of the other without ever finishing any of them. If you're a strategist, your natural tendency is to gather information broadly enough to figure out what not to do and then focus your energy on creating plans of action. Many visionaries believe they're strategists, when in fact, they are completely two different personas. Although sometimes these personas can live comfortably in the same person, one of the personas does tend to be dominant.

Ultimately, the strategist's ultimate goal is to simplify and make decisions that can be delegated to action. The visionary, left to their own devices, tends to delay decision making in favor of keeping their options open until another persona, either one of their own or someone else's, forces their hand, or perhaps the situation itself forces their hand. So you can see how there's a very distinct difference between the visionary and the strategist. If you're a strong implementer, you want clarity and a plan of action that is very black and white. You don't want all the details, you don't need all the details. You just want to know what the exact path to implementation looks like. Now, the risk for an implementer is to not care as deeply about the big picture sometimes lacking the scope of understanding to know when to pivot. So you can see implementers are very focused.

On the other hand, if you're a strong shepherd, you'll see almost everything in nuance and shades of gray and struggle with wanting your environment to be friction free. You're very idealistic a lot of the time and sometimes carry a little bit of that visionary within you. You do care more about the external experience or your team's experience than your own experience internally and you will sacrifice yourself for what's best for your team. So typically the Visionary is idealistic with a long time frame, the Strategist is more realistic with a long time frame, the Nurturer is idealistic with a shorter time frame, and the implementer is realistic with a shorter time frame. So you can see there's a little bit of overlap in between each of these personas as well. How many people are living rent free inside your head? More than you think. And I'd encourage you to get in touch with each of those personas. In which scenarios do they all bubble up to the surface? Are there any that are very loud or very quiet? Regardless of which of these personas is the strongest within you, the danger is if you create an environment that idolizes any one of these personas without recognizing they can just as soon become vulnerabilities, you run the risk of creating an echo chamber full of yes people.

And if that's the case, your team will find it very politically challenging at best to give you the hard feedback you need to focus, prioritize and adapt your personas to make sure you are doing the right things at the right time. In most of us, our dominant persona feels easy, like it's our natural selves. I talk about building a strengths based organization in a lot of these podcasts, and that means making it easy as possible for us to live in that dominant persona so we can take advantage of being in a flow state for as much of the time as possible. The only way to do that effectively is to build a balance of these personas. Let's pretend that you had all four of these different personas and they were all in balance. You can see how the way that their personalities are structured, they can create a check and balance within the person. And so if you have the Visionary, you have the Strategist, you have the implementer and you have the shepherd, kind of your bases are taken care of, you have the vision, you can narrow it down, you can implement it, and you can take care of the people around you, right? If we are focusing solely on one persona, let's say the Visionary, because it's easy, because probably it's the predominant persona in a lot of the folks who are listening to this podcast. If you're completely engrossed in the visionary state and you're able to stay in that flow state you're not going to get a lot accomplished like, let's be honest.

And so the theory behind strength space teams is that rather than having to develop the four personas inside yourself, which can take a lot of energy from us, if we have to build strengths from our weaknesses, essentially from our weaker personas, then we build the structure outside of ourselves instead. So instead of having those four personas inside myself that I'm trying to strengthen, and maybe one or two of them are very weak, and I'm trying to build them up and put a lot of energy into building those strengths in those very weak areas, I recruit people who have those natural abilities, those natural personas, and I partner with them. So to summarize, instead of having to build a balance of those personas within ourselves in order to create those checks and balances and momentum, we build the structure externally outside ourselves, vis a vis our team members and our belief systems. So that's a completely different modus operandi. In order to do this, we need to believe on a deep, personal and authentic level that our strongest persona, the one that we've probably fallen a little bit in love with, is on the same psychological and hierarchical playing field as all of the others. Because we need to find that balance in order to be successful and because we have a specific tendency or strength in one specific persona. It's very normal to put that persona on a pedestal, but that makes it no better in quotation marks than any of the others. Without the visionary, our dreams wouldn't be as expansive.

That's true. Without the strategist, we wouldn't be able to tune out the noise and prioritize. Without the implementer, we wouldn't be able to turn the plan into action. And without the shepherd, we wouldn't live our values and nurture the cultural ecosystem that actually grows that vision. It's no surprise that in many organizations, the visionary plays at the highest levels. Often it starts with the vision it does. But since we believe that every person has a visionary inside themselves and anyone can choose to grow this muscle if they choose to do so, this isn't a God given talent. We realize that the persona we wear has at least as much to do with the environment outside influences like our upbringing, our opportunities, mentors and friends as much as it has to do with natural, inborn strengths.

In different types of organizations, you'll find that different personas are glorified. But the visionary often almost always stands on top. If you identify as the visionary, it's very wise to practice something like stoicism where you can find balance in the values of wisdom, justice, courage and moderation. You need to practice humility. All right, so you've leaned into your strengths, you've embraced your entrepreneurial persona, you're proud of those strengths, and you've acknowledged and given yourself grace for your developing areas. Now what? It's time to build your dream team and if you're a solopreneur micro business owner, you probably don't have the skill yet to create this kind of strengths based ecosystem. Your dream team really has to come from inside yourself, and you'll have to balance and try to express each of these personas within an order to maximize your progress. In this case, I'd highly recommend reading The E Myth Revisited, where Michael Gerber takes you through his three personas the entrepreneur, the manager, and the technician.

Understanding these three personas and how and when to wear each of these three hats will help you navigate through the earliest days of running a business. When you're the only person on your dream team, your mantra really is, who do I need to be today to succeed? And if you're slowly growing and you're thinking about hiring that first person, by the way, if you have not watched the video on YouTube, I think it's called like the first follower. You need to go right now and watch that video, and I'll link it below as well.

But when you're thinking about hiring your first follower, it's really especially important to think about what is that persona of that person going to look like. Your first follower might be the most important hire you ever make. Once your business is large enough that you can begin recruiting contractors and operational staff, you can start to think about which personas should be brought outside of yourself. And obviously, we start with the first follower. Often that's the persona that takes the most emotional energy to maintain, but that doesn't mean that you're going to abandon that persona completely.

But it becomes more passive rather than active, being used when you need to adapt to situations, communicate effectively with others who have a strong persona in that area, those sorts of things. So it's an integrator persona. It's not an active persona per se. The idea here is to create a symbiotic relationship where your strengths feed into theirs, and vice versa. For instance, if you're a shepherd focused on building relationships and fostering a positive culture, you might benefit from having a strategist on board, someone who can analyze trends and help you make data driven decisions so your strong sense of empathy and justice doesn't override your strategic priorities. And remember that diversity is your friend. A team with a range of skills, experiences, and perspectives is a team that can tackle any challenge that comes its way. So I guess the next burning question, at least in my mind, would be how do you create an environment where every person, regardless of their persona or personas, can truly shine? Regardless of your persona, if you want to build a strengths based organization and a strengths based team, it has to extend beyond your own philosophy.

We need to build equity into the system to make it extremely difficult for this ethos to be dismantled or used for selfish purposes. And believe me, anything can be used for selfish purposes, if we're not careful.

We need to create equitable hiring, development and advancement frameworks. For example, when it comes to hiring, employ diverse recruiting channels, standardize your job descriptions and use inclusive language that focuses on competencies. Conduct blind resume reviews, perform structured interviews, and even better, host diverse interview panels to bring different perspectives into the process. Make sure your recruitment team has taken training on unconscious bias. When it comes to developing your team, make it democratic with equal access to training resources. Teach your managers coaching skills and how to help their employees.

Create personalized development plans. Create a mentor and sponsorship program to support underrepresented groups. Offer skills based training. Make sure you have a seamless performance feedback process that's broadly implemented and measured. And when it comes to promotion, establish clear promotional criteria based on performance and competencies. Allow any employee to apply for roles. Conduct regular pay audits to make sure any disparities are addressed. Or even better, practice pay transparency and develop a common understanding of how compensation is distributed based on education, experience, performance, or many other factors.

Be accountable to each of these elements. This is crucial in order to maintain the momentum and consistency in the practice. So tracking diversity metrics related to hiring, development, and promotion setting equity goals, using employee surveys to solicit constructive feedback, and reporting on the results. Report your progress with transparency as well and the different actions that have been taken.

Building a continuous improvement culture right from onboarding a new employee at the end of the day, your business is a reflection of you. By understanding your entrepreneurial persona and building a complementary team, you're setting the stage for success because of your strengths, not in spite of your strengths. And there you have it, fellow weirdos, a little dive into the world of entrepreneurial personas.

Remember Lao Tzu, the father of Taoism said, "knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is enlightenment."

And Carl Jung said, "your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside dreams, who looks inside awakens?"

Thank you so much for joining me on this journey today. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, share and leave us a review.

Until next time, keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible in your world of work.

This is Erin Patchell signing off. Stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Erin Patchell: G'day friends and welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we discuss how authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose can lead to more visionary organizations. I'm your host, Erin Pachell, and today I have a very special guest with us. Everyone meet Asmaa Moussa.

Asmaa Moussa: Hi, thank you.

Erin Patchell: Welcome to the show Asmaa thank you.

Asmaa Moussa: So much for having me.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. And what are we talking about today?

Asmaa Moussa: Community, I think.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, I think so. Community building. I think that's something that we both care a lot about.

Asmaa Moussa: Yeah, very much.

Erin Patchell: Very much. Awesome. Stay tuned.

[Intro music]

Erin Patchell: All right, everyone, let's get started. Asmaa is a new permanent resident to Canada, and I know she's already starting to make waves in the National Capital Region where we live. She's a Meta certified community manager and the founder of Moussa Media. Now in its fifth year, Asmaa is also a founding member of the ClickFunnels Community Management Team and helps thousands of clients in her company's groups to improve their businesses, careers and lives. And she's also award winning Community Specialist from 2021.

Erin Patchell: Welcome to the show, Asmaa.

Asmaa Moussa: Thank you so much. I'm super excited to talk everything community with you.

Erin Patchell: Fantastic. I'm so curious, what does community mean to you?

Asmaa Moussa: Well, I'm super passionate about community, and I really like that you are as well. So that gives us lots of things to talk about. I started my community career in 2018, but I've been passionate about that, well, before that, it started maybe even when I got graduated. The whole idea of how community and how networks can change people's lives and can create very important impacts in their professional and personal careers hit me immediately after my exams, my school exams. So that was a very nice story. I would like to share it with you. I remember that I was very active in school, by the way.

Asmaa Moussa: I was active in all the students unions, attended events, organized events and everything. So I remember that I was in one of those events, and the instructor was very interesting, so he was discussing how the digital world is changing. That was 2008. Okay? So it was before everything that we're experiencing now. So everything he was sharing was revolutionary for me. It was amazing. So I listened, I was very attentive. And then I remember towards the end of this lecture, he shared his number.

Asmaa Moussa: And I remember that there were very few people who picked out the pen and actually took the number, but I was one of them because okay, so I was weirdo when I was even younger. So I remember that after my exams, I was just trying to think, what would I do with my future, how life would go on and everything. And I remember him, he just popped in my mind. So I decided to pick up the phone and call him and that is so hard for an introvert like me. But something inside told me that this is an area that you want to explore. So I called and I asked him about the project he was talking about. And he told me that, unfortunately, this is not available yet in Alexandria.

Asmaa Moussa: Okay. Alexandria is where I lived, in a small city. It is Mediterranean in Egypt, so we did not have lots of opportunities there. So we had a conversation and I was ready to hang up. And then he told me, do you speak English? And I said, my English is nice. So he told me, why don't you come for an interview? And it turned out that this interview was for training college students on the same project that I wanted to work in. Okay. So I wanted to work as an employee, but things turned to be I was teaching people how to enter that field.

Asmaa Moussa: So the interview went really good. And by the way, that man did not help me at all when it came to the interview or entering the project because he never knew me. Okay. It's just the idea of having connection with someone else. So the interview went well and I got hired for a very good salary. I remember that it was even around what my own parents were making back then. Yeah, it was amazing. And it was training and I was going to deal with people at college and I was not even graduated yet.

Asmaa Moussa: I just finished my exams. I remember that I was the youngest person in that project and I was the first one of my whole college who started working in a good place. It was a governmental project. It was amazing. And then something just hit my mind that networks are great thing to have. These are very important asset that anyone can have. And having the courage to make that contact and to ask and to try to find explore different opportunities, that was amazing. So I think that it started with me back then, and then many other series of events supported that belief.

Asmaa Moussa: So you can tell that I am passionate, right?

Erin Patchell: You absolutely can tell. Yes, you 100%. That story so clearly demonstrates how community is not a passive process. It's an active process, an extremely active process that it takes energy to cultivate a community.

Asmaa Moussa: Absolutely, yes. This is 100% something that I figured out. I'm so grateful that I learned it when I was so young because it positively impacted my whole life, my whole career, my whole mindset, because I approach things way differently than most people do because of these experiences that I got.

Erin Patchell: So we all know that. I think that building your network can help you reach a goal or become more successful in whatever way you define success. I think, in a lot of different ways that people define success. What other benefits does a community bring, do you think?

Asmaa Moussa: Support above all that you know that there are other people out there who have similar interests, who share similar ideas who have the same hopes. And we are humans, we are social creatures, right? So we want to feel that we belong no matter what we think, no matter what are our interests. And especially for people sometimes like us, it's so hard to find those connections with everyone around you when you are an entrepreneur. So that makes you a little bit different kind of person. Okay? So you might not find the same interest like any other housewife or regular employee. Okay. So it's really nice to know that I have another person, that there is an Erin that I can contact her and ask her that. I had this idea when I was sleeping and I couldn't sleep and I have to execute it right now.

Asmaa Moussa: So not everyone can understand that. And having access to community is one way to make sure that you do not feel excluded, that you do not feel like you're an inferior person. So this is an amazing part of the community that I'm also very interested in creating and developing and making sure that it is there whenever I'm building a new community.

Erin Patchell: What is the differences? Or maybe I don't know what the differences are, if there are any differences, but what would you say between building a community in real life face to face versus building a virtual community? What would you say are the differences or the similarities?

Asmaa Moussa:  I think that building a community in virtual life, it is easier in a way, but still it's harder. But if we try to think of how easy it is, it's as easy as opening a search bar and looking for entrepreneurs in Ottawa. Okay, so you can easily search and try to find yeah, it would take you some time to explore different places and make sure that their values are the same and everything and make those connections. But other than in real life, in physical life, it's hard to approach every person that you meet in the street and say, are you an entrepreneur? Are you an entrepreneur? It's not going to work that way. Okay, so it's a little bit easy. The digital space has created this whole world where we can connect with people who have the same interests. And it doesn't have to be only in Ottawa, it can be anywhere else. So I was in Egypt and I had a community of people in the US.

Asmaa Moussa: In Canada, in Germany, in South Africa and everywhere. So that is the beauty of having the online and the digital space. And while I grow older, I really appreciate the physical and the real life connections, but I still value the opportunities that this digital space had opened for us, because without that, I would have never been having this conversation. With you right now or never had the opportunity to work with ClickFunnels, for example, or gain all the experiences from the people that I learned from. So that's why I'm a little bit passionate about the digital space, but I can definitely see the advantages and the beauty of having a real connection with someone and shaking their hands and having a meal with them. It's also amazing.

Erin Patchell:

What are the characteristics, do you think? I mean, as a community builder yourself, like, you're a community builder. I think that you probably network also with other community builders. What are the characteristics that make up a person who's great at community building?

Asmaa Moussa:

You have to start by loving people, right? Yeah. It's important to know that everyone can provide something, that everyone has something to share and to see the good in every person that belongs to that community that you're trying to build. It's very important that you create a very safe space for everyone to share whatever they want to say, as long as it's not abusive or hatred or whatever. But you have to create this area where people are free to share their hopes, their dreams, their fears, their struggles, no matter how small others might think there is. So, for example, we're working with software, and that means we're dealing with people from all different kinds of backgrounds and experiences. So we're dealing with someone who might be who might have just opened a computer today. They have never had to deal with a computer before, other than for work or something. So I can literally coach someone on how to open a new browser and maybe search for a specific criteria on Google.

Asmaa Moussa:

And in the same time, I'm dealing with other people who are very technically advanced and help them troubleshoot very difficult issues. Okay, so it's important to create communities that are open for both of them, that are acceptable for both of them without judgment. So I want to create a community where the person who just tried or who's just starting his online career or starting his software building journey, I want him to not feel intimidated. And in the same time, I do not want the other person who has very high technical skills to feel like he has the right to mock the other person or underestimate what they bring to the table. Okay, so having this inclusive community is extremely important.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of entrepreneurs that build communities. I'm trying to figure out how to word this best, but I feel like community or or creating a community can sometimes be like an ego driven thing rather than becoming part of a community. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like everyone wants their own community, but if we all have our own community, then there's no community, you know what I mean? Because we can only be a part of so many communities. And so I'm curious to know, do you think for entrepreneurs, it's better to start your own community or if it's better to join another community or somewhere in between?

Asmaa Moussa:

I would definitely recommend that people start by joining other communities because it's easier. First of all, it's easier to go to a well established community and see how people are reacting and look at the problems that they are having. Engage in conversations, build relationships with other people. So this is how you create the true and deep understanding of the people that you want to gather around you. Okay. And then within the time after you develop clear understanding of those who you want to serve, maybe you can craft a specific area that you want to explore more or that you want to have a network or a community where you share more about that very specific niche. Okay. So for example, there are tons of communities about entrepreneurs online.

Asmaa Moussa:

So I would go to that one and start building the relationships and maybe I notice that there is a need or there is a certain problem that I can personally solve and then I would start gradually to build my whole network and my whole effect around that just small carved area.

Erin Patchell: Good advice. Yeah.

Asmaa Moussa: Thank you.

Erin Patchell: Is that generally the same advice that you would give your clients?

Asmaa Moussa: Yeah, 100%. Because it's important for my clients to know that one of the important advices that I give them is to go where their customers hang out. Okay. So it's important to understand the customer that you're trying to serve. Right. I really hate when someone thinks that they have a solution that's going to help other people and they have never had the time to speak with those other people. They have to spend the time to understand the kind of issues that they are having, the pains, the struggles, and what exactly the solution that they are looking for. If you do not know that, if you do not know the kind of language that your people are using, how can you serve them? How can you help them? This way, you're not going to go anywhere.

Asmaa Moussa: So it's always better to immerse yourself in the places where your customers are hanging out and develop that deep understanding of what you can offer based on what they need, not just based on your own vision of what they might need. Does that make sense?

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. What would you say if I'm and I am an entrepreneur, so you can talk directly to me about this? What is the fastest way to build a community?

Asmaa Moussa: Okay, so the real truth is that communities take time to be built. Okay? So effective communities require tons of work, tons of effort, and tons of time to be created and built and nurtured because you cannot just create a group on Facebook and have 100 of your friends and say that you have a community. This is not a community. A community is a place where people, not just you as an entrepreneur, where people have the opportunity to share their ideas, to share their questions, experiences, issues, wins, challenges and failures. Okay? So this is what a community really means. A very successful community is a one that the owner is not the only one that's engaging, to put it that clear, okay? A good community is a self sustained community where other members are the ones that are sharing the most posts, are the ones that are answering the most comments or threats, okay? So this is when you know that you have created a good community. So it takes tons of efforts. However, we have discovered a little bit of a trick that we use in order to build a community faster, but then you would still have the work to leverage that group or that community that you have created.

Asmaa Moussa: So this strategy is based on creating a coaching week or a challenge. And the whole idea starts with something that you can help your clients with or your audience with within a very short amount of time, okay? Something that they can actually create within, let's say, five days. So you host that challenge where people sign up for that. So you have the benefit of building your list and having all these emails that you can nurture afterwards. And this is a whole new topic that we can spend hours talking about. But you would have that list and then you invite them to a group where you would deliver the content of that challenge. Okay? So, for example, if you are a business coach and you are serving people who want to start their own businesses so you can create a simple five day challenge that starts with developing a business idea. Understanding your Avatar developing your core offers, coming up with marketing plan and so on and so forth, so that by the end of the five days, your audience would have a clear plan on things that they can start.

Asmaa Moussa: You made that transformation for them. You've helped them within five days. So that is an amazing way to build a community where the people inside of that place understand the value that you can offer. So they would stick there, they would come to you for help and maybe they want to sign up for higher ticket offers that you've got. So a challenge might be free or very low ticket offer, but then afterwards there is an opportunity for a serving people for $0. And this is extremely important part of any business because not everyone is ready to invest with you. And it's a good way to give back to the community by giving them free value. Then you would have others who might be interested in working with Erin and to explore the advice, the high ticket advice that you can offer for them, so you will get extra business on the site.

Asmaa Moussa: So it's a win win.

Erin Patchell: That's awesome advice, and I might just do that.

Asmaa Moussa: I'm a huge fan of free value or giving back to the people who are not ready to invest at the moment. Because everyone deserves to have this break and not having the budget does not mean that you do not qualify for success.

Erin Patchell: Oh, I am so with you on that one. I am all about giving free value as well. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we decided to start the podcast in the first place. Right?

Asmaa Moussa: Of course.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. And lots of other endeavors as well, so that's great. Do you have any projects coming up or anything you'd like to share with.

Asmaa Moussa:

The listeners at the moment? I've been going very deep and immersing myself in another way to create community and to develop your fans around the business that you have. I've been exploring the idea of memberships. There is this concept that I am very convinced about at this moment that having courses is dead. Okay? If you're creating a course, if you're a course builder, this is dead. Stop doing that. And instead, it's better to develop memberships. So the whole idea is that people that you should develop memberships where people come to you and listen to the content that you have and in the same time offer them a community where they connect together and learn. From you and try to understand how they can apply whatever content you are giving to them and apply them in their businesses or in their lives to have this place where they can network and share whatever questions they have.

Asmaa Moussa:

I think this is a much better model than just having a course, selling it and putting it out there for the people to buy. And when you create a subscription and have a community, again, have a community attached to that membership where you continue to offer value to your members, this can create great value for the people that you want to serve. So there is this saying that keeps popping in my head that says people buy for the product, but they stay for the community. Right. This makes lots of sense. And we have seen that. I've seen that so many times over and over and over again, and we're making huge success with that. This is something that I'm working on with my clients at the moment, developing successful memberships for them.

Erin Patchell:

That's fantastic. Well, I think that sounds like a great idea, and I've actually seen a few examples of that, in fact, in a few different groups that I've been a part of where it's the same model. And I think that does work exceptionally well when it's done well. For sure.

Asmaa Moussa:

Exactly. So just stop doing courses.

Erin Patchell:

Everyone develop membership for individuals. For sure. Yeah. For B to C. Definitely.

Asmaa Moussa:

Exactly.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. Awesome. Really good advice. Asima, thank you so much for joining us today, Chris.

Asmaa Moussa:

You're very welcome. Always happy to be here.

Erin Patchell:

Really appreciate your words of wisdom. And I'm going to remember that people may buy your products, but they stay for the community. 100% amazing. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Asmaa on the power of community and how to build community in your business. If you want to get a hold of Asmaa to help you build community, connect with her at www.moussamedia.com.

In the words of the great Annie DeFranco, building jetties in a current is a surefire way to move lots of water. This is how you take the energy that's coming in the form of current and you shape it.

Erin Patchell:

That's a metaphor I think perfectly applies to community building. That's all for today. Until next time, remember to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Welcome to the 30th episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we discuss how authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose lead to more visionary organizations. I'm your favorite weirdo, Erin Patchell, and your host. And today we're going to talk about a topic that is very personal to me right now because it's something that I'm actively going through as we speak, and that is, what do you do when you're making a lot of amazing progress into all your goals? You're juggling a lot of balls and you keep telling yourself, oh, that's a good problem to have.

Maybe I've got too many clients, too much interest in my business, too much creativity, I'm pursuing so many beautiful goals, but all of a sudden you feel like you're a little bit overwhelmed. Hmm. So if that resonates with you, then stay tuned.

[Intro Music]

I think in almost every single conversation that I've had for the last two or three weeks, there's been a moment where I said, you know, though, that's a good problem to have, right? It means that I'm motivated. It means that I'm getting shit done. It means that people are aligning and engaging with the work that I do, and it means that there are opportunities in the business landscape that I'm capable of problem solving.

And if you, maybe, listened to my podcast with Joel Silverstone a few weeks ago, you'll know that I'm definitely a "yes-and" person and I believe in saying yes to opportunities. But that's not infinite, right? We can't say yes to infinite possibilities and opportunities if we have limited availability and capabilities. And I expect that many people who are listening to this podcast are "yes-and" people as well.

You probably want to make the world safer, a better place, a more productive environment, a more joyful way of living, and more sustainable. But we can't be sustainable and do everything. We do, have to narrow down our priorities and focus and then get things done before we move on to other opportunities. We've got to have some kind of balance between thinking big and then zooming in on the details and actions. And the last couple of weeks, I've been finding my own work life increasingly unsustainable. And that's one of the reasons why the podcast that I had intended to put out today didn't go out.

I am actually re-recording this basically on the fly and it's going to be a little bit later coming out than it would normally. Normally I like to post my podcasts like, first thing Wednesday morning, and it's currently Wednesday at 12:15 P.M. And I literally just decided to rerecord this basically stream of consciousness and post something that I thought was a little bit more real and related to my current life.

Sometimes you've got to ebb and sometimes you've got a flow. And while I'm a little bit tired right now, I'm not burning out. I think there's a very, very big difference between being tired and burning out. I'm lucky that basically all of the work I do gives me energy. And that is actually sometimes part of the problem because I'm so passionate about it and I'm so purpose driven and motivated towards these goals that they can sometimes be a little bit all consuming.

I personally think that burnout often happens when we're... the work that we're doing does not give us energy back. But what do you do when you're tired because you are working really hard towards goals that motivate you and that give you energy? So that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about burnout. The burnout to me is a completely separate topic. How do you manage doing great things, a lot of great things, being motivated and making sure that you reach your goals while also managing many other things. For example, I have a family, right? I have three teenagers who are in my life. I have a husband who I deeply care about, who I want to make time for. I have friends that I deeply care about, who I want to make time for.

And I also have very, very big goals with respect to my business and doing great work in the world and doing good for the world and my community that I absolutely need time for. So when I failed - keeping that word held lightly, holding that word very lightly, when I failed to post my podcast at the usual time of 09:00 a.m. this morning, I didn't guilt myself over it or shame myself over it. I just accepted that this has been a crazy time for me and that I'm going to rejig things a little bit and do things a little bit differently this week to make sure that everything works. So for me, that's number one. I'm not shaming myself. I'm not forcing myself to maintain a schedule, a specific schedule, just because I have decreed that that is how things are done here. And the second thing that I'm doing is planning.

I think as soon as you get to the point where you're feeling a little bit overwhelmed with all the balls that you're actively moving towards and keeping in the air, you need to stop and take a minute and take a breath, maybe meditate. Find something that is going to help you slow down and then do the planning that you need to do. Do the thinking that you need to do in order to make sure that you're focused on exactly the right priorities. If we stay in that fight flight freeze mode too long, then our bodies will start to get overwhelmed and it won't be a motivational stress. It'll become a more toxic sort of stress. So recognizing once you've gotten to that point where you're thinking, how the hell am I going to get all this shit done? That is exactly the point where you need to stop. I promise you that it can wait. The projects that you have on the table, the goals that you're moving towards that no one's pushing you towards but yourself.

Those are the goals that you need to just put on pause for a day or two, stop and reevaluate, go back to your strategic plan if you have one. And if you don't have one, start one. Start with your mission, vision, values and your strategic objectives for the year. Review it in detail and figure out where all of these priorities align underneath them. Most of my activities align generally under three categories. The first category is revenue building activities and those are any activities that are directly tied to revenue generation such as delivering business to clients, creating proposals and strategic business development. Not just business development like any business development activities, but for example, like following up with key potential clients. The next category is revenue supporting activities.

So that would be your business development and marketing, building strategic partnerships, but again very, very targeted, very targeted to your specific customer profiles. And then the next category for me is community building activities. And a lot of the time these are the free things that I tend to do. For example, we developed and promoted for Small Business Week this week an elearning course that will help small businesses begin to do business with the federal government and support them in applying for their ProServices supply arrangement. So this is generally for B2B service suppliers. Or the Small Business Book Club that I run once a month. Or this podcast as an example. Or the free or pro bono coaching and consulting that I do for different types of diverse businesses and business owners.

And while I would love to just be able to do those community building activities full time and those are the things that often create so much energy for me because I absolutely love doing it. But profit always has to come first. You can't have a business without profit and so your passion projects always have to take slightly a backseat sometimes to those other activities that I mentioned before. And of course throughout all of this there is also the business side of it. So in addition to either of these three categories, we have to do human resources, we have to be recruiting, we have to maintain operations. And while these activities are extremely important, it's extremely important to do them exactly at the right time. I try to make sure that my efficiency in these areas are as maximized as possible because they are not revenue generating and they are not community building or leading towards the purpose of my organization. They're simply maintaining the structure and integrity and sustainability of the organization as a whole.

As I'm planning, I am thinking about what do I prioritize, deprioritize or delegate in order to make sure that I have the time to do the things that are the absolute most important for my business and for my clients.

As a person with ADHD, it's sometimes really easy to get swept up in the romantic ideas for the future instead of continuing to work through and complete the projects that we have on the table today. And so that's always the first place that I start. Those beautiful ideas that we like to brainstorm don't have to go away forever. We just put them in a parking lot. We use Miro which is a whiteboarding tool that I love personally and we have a parking lot ideas brainstorming space where anyone from the team can add their ideas so they're not lost in the ether. They're great ideas, they're just not ideas for today. And I do tend to focus on revenue generating and revenue supporting activities as much as I can because I know that the faster that I grow my business the more resources we have to do good in the world and the more people we can hire and delegate to in order to get work completed.

And I think it's really important to do the work and the labor that comes with planning your short, mid and long term objectives, holding sometimes those mid and long term objectives somewhat loosely in order to make sure that you're driving towards your future goals while also maintaining current sustainability within your current resources but also making sure that as the business evolves, you're mapping it into a system that is integrated and as simple as possible.

Since I want this to be a positive and proactive exercise I have to make sure that I'm not in a position where I'm struggling and putting out fires and overwhelmed to the point where I can't really function anymore. I have to always be very familiar with my own feelings and the feelings of the people around me and my own body to make sure that I'm catching any situations before they become emergencies. We don't want those good problems to have to become bad problems to have. And we know that life can sometimes throw us curveballs. So leaving availability for things that are unexpected should always be very important. And that's not just mental availability or schedule availability it's also emotional availability. Sometimes I think the best thing that you can do if you're feeling overwhelmed and your schedule is filling up like crazy and you're not entirely sure what it is that you need to reduce or remove, the best thing you can do sometimes is just to take a day off, do some meditation work, really slow down and just process everything.

Sometimes it helps to phone a friend or a coach or a mentor and get their feedback, get their perspective be really honest about what you're going through if you feel stuck or if you're struggling or even if it's your inspiration that's taking you in 15 different directions and you're just not sure which direction to pick.

Remember, we don't have to do everything all at once. We can chip away at things we can move things forward very incrementally, breaking them down into tiny, tiny steps and tiny pieces of work and then slowly building on there. But it only works if you keep going back to what you're building on and continue moving forward. And there are definitely limitations to how much we can all do all at once. And I am definitely finding myself at pretty close to the end of my limitations. So I am going through this process actively. If you want to go through this process with me, we have a small business book club that I host once a month and it's full of beautiful entrepreneurs and business owners who we're willing to be super authentic and vulnerable with each other.

And even though I help businesses with this exact topic, I always say a business coach, she needs a business coach. A leadership coach needs a leadership coach, an executive needs an executive coach.

We all need coaches, we all need mentors, we all need support around us and community around us and I encourage you to join.

So feel free to send me an email at erin@positivist.ca or feel free to PM me on any of the social media platforms that I'm on. Typically you can find me at Erin Patchell or some combination thereof.

And this has been the 30th episode of Weirdos in the Workplace. Don't forget to stay weird and stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble.

Erin Patchell: Good day, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we discuss how authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose leads to more visionary organizations. I'm your favorite weirdo, Erin Patchell, and today I have a very special guest with me, and his name is Oliver Wolfe. Say hello, Oliver.

Oliver Wolf: Hello, everyone. Thank you for having me here.

Erin Patchell: What are we chatting about today, Oliver?

Oliver Wolf: I think the natural direction of things will go towards conscious sales; what that is, what it means, what it's about, how to implement that into your life. Business harmonization. And then I think a topic I like to speak to is just like, how to navigate a holistic life, related to that. I have twin toddlers and a conscious relationship, and so that requires intentional attention. And so balancing all those things is always a very fun topic. And I don't really call it balance, I call it rhythm, but we'll get into that.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. I love it. All right, stay tuned, everyone. 

[Intro music]

Erin Patchell: All right, gang. Oliver is a devoted family man, as he mentioned. He's the co-founder of Beyond the Peak, Inc. A premier Conscious Sales Agency, and the Conscious Sales Institute that facilitates the Conscious Sales System and sales training programs. Oliver is also a well loved business strategist with a focus on systems leadership and operations.

Erin Patchell: Oliver, welcome to the show.

Oliver Wolf: Thanks. Bit of a mouthful. I know. A lot going on.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, you've got a lot of things happening all at the same time, eh?

Oliver Wolf: Totally. Yeah. And I think there's definitely a very big through-line as it relates to the word conscious and what that means and such. So I'm sure we'll get to dive into that.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, let's dive into that right now, because as you are sitting in front of me, and because this podcast is audio only, other people, they won't be able to see you, unfortunately, but pretend you're me, and you're looking at Oliver right now, and I'm seeing Oliver's lovely face. And right behind you there's a large picture, a large picture of a wolf. And obviously your last name is Wolf, and your previous business was the Wolf Syndicate. And so there's a wolf theme going on. And I love the imagery of the wolf and I think it's amazing. But what I'm curious about is the connection between consciousness and empathy, which is something we've talked about as well in previous conversation, and the wolf pack, because I don't always think those things go hand in hand. Tell me about that.

Oliver Wolf: Yeah, I love that. First of all, it's not that it was intentionally thought of. Like, okay, wolves, wolf pack, empathy, conscious, that wasn't intentionally put together. A lot of and I think anyone who really follows their heart and their soul's calling, they end up having everything come together. It's the classic line of Steve Jobs. You can't connect the dots moving forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. And so I think that's sort of what happened here is it's just unintentionally the dots being connected.

Oliver Wolf: And so when I think about, okay, how does a wolf pack, which can often be seen as potentially violent, it can be potentially seen as aggressive or any of these kinds of things. The reality is wolves are a territorial species, and they don't just go out and create aggression unnecessarily only when their territory is actually moved in on or their family, I guess you could say, attacked or targeted. And so even with that last statement, that's where I think that it really becomes a very empathetic thing because wolves and their packs are incredibly empathetic to each other, to their aligned purpose as a pack and their desire to survive and thrive as a species. And what I think is also important as it relates to if we want to hang on to empathy as a whole, one of the things that I adopted… or one of the many things I adopted from wolves is the idea of, like, everyone or every wolf in a pack has a purpose, otherwise it does get banished, right? And this kind of resonates with Jim… what's his name? Sorry. Not Jim. Is it Jim? Jim Rohn.

Oliver Wolf: Jim Rohn's. You know, you're the average of the five people you surround yourself with. Show me your five closest friends, I'll show you who you are. So it resonates with that of like, well. I'm very selective of the people in my wolf pack and the empathy that comes with saying, hey, you know what? You aren't a fit here, and the best thing I can do for you is release you from this. The best thing. There's all this “people pleasing” stuff that happens in the world and there's this huge misconception around. Not letting them down is the better thing to do. When in truth, keeping them around in a place they shouldn't be is way worse than letting them know they shouldn't be here and hurting their feelings immediately. But then them, of course, feeling released and relieved and so on and so forth.

Erin Patchell: Tough love, right? Like tough love is love, really, it is, yeah.

Oliver Wolf: So when I hear, oh, how does wolfpack and empathy go in hand in hand, I'm like, how does it not? Right. That's how I perceive it.

Erin Patchell: Well, and if you think of the wolfpack, as you're talking, I'm thinking… think about the profound level of trust that they have for each other and commitment and discipline and all of the things a lot of the characteristics that we would want to, I think, develop in a team. Right?

Oliver Wolf: Yeah. Well, and the reality is so my logo of the wolf syndicate, which is still active, it's actually my hold co.

Erin Patchell: Okay, perfect.

Oliver Wolf: Yeah. So it's the hold code to my organizations, and the logo is actually it's five wolves, one facing forward and the other facing sides. The idea is that they trust that each other's back is covered by the fact that the others are watching the other directions. That's the idea of the logo and the wolf syndicate is like, we all have aligned values that allow us to focus on what's in front of us and not worry about what's behind us because that's covered by someone else.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. And I feel like what you just said leads us so nicely into business harmonization.

Oliver Wolf: Right. Good call.

Erin Patchell: So convenient.

Oliver Wolf: It's all there, right, looking backwards.

Erin Patchell: Yes. Tell me about business harmonization.

Oliver Wolf: Yeah. So in its simplest form, the way I like to define is basically business comes down to three elements. It's people and systems coming together under a common goal. Right. And so the harmonization of those things is what creates success. I kind of like to think about it in terms of like a music symphony. And so you've got the instruments, which are like the system, so your saxophone and your baritone and all those things, those are the systems in a sense. And then, of course, the players are the people.

Oliver Wolf: And then I like to think about the visionary and the goal as the conductor. Right. So for those of you who don't know music, in short, the conductor is not just waving his wand around and then he's of no use. 

Erin Patchell: He’s looking good.

Oliver Wolf: Yeah right? He's literally coordinating yeah, right. He's literally coordinating the rhythm at which everyone plays each part. Because when you read music, there are slowdowns and speed ups and crescendos and decrescendos and all these things, and it's the conductor who actually manages at what rates those things are happening. And so that, to me, is that third element of the goal and the visionary holding that goal. And then that's what's really cool, is when you have a really good symphony, you hear one sound, that's what's powerful.

Oliver Wolf: And so if you can make your business come together and create one sound instead of like, oh, our sales department has this goal and direction and they're going this way, and our marketing department is thinking about this and they're going that way. And then everyone's kind of just doing their own thing, creating silos and all this stuff. That's not business harmonization. That's not one sound. Right. So that's what I like to think about, is how can I create that one sound as a business?

Erin Patchell: Yeah. And we're in similar businesses, we have different kinds of clients, but I feel like our approaches are similar. I don't call it business harmonization, but I think it's a lovely way of describing it. And I know that it's a lot more… it's so simple. We just need to get them to harmonize. Right, totally. Yeah. So tell me about some of the more interesting challenges, especially these days, like post pandemic. What are you seeing in the world of work with your clients?

Oliver Wolf: Sure. Well, I can definitely speak to a few different areas, so I'll speak to when it comes to, again, just the theme of business harmonization. Right now, one of the biggest things that brings businesses into harmony is their commitment to their core values, which inherently means clarity on their core values. I really like to speak about core values a lot because a lot of businesses just write them down, not very intentionally and not very thoughtfully. Once they do, they slap them on a wall. Once they're slapped on a wall, they think that's enough and that's that. And unfortunately, it doesn't land for people, it doesn't become internalized. And so this is where I see often the biggest gaps in the organizations that we work with and just the organizations that I'm around.

Oliver Wolf: I go to a lot of masterminds and conferences, all that kind of fun stuff. And there's definitely a big theme around. If there's a business having… struggling so much of the time, it's just immediately down to the culture. And when the culture is not there, it's usually because the core values aren't being internalized. Right. And so, for example, for us in our organization, how we work with core values, first of all, one of the tips, and a lot of this can be discovered from EOS and the book Traction. They do a good job on talking about how to come up with core values and all that kind of stuff. I really do appreciate it. 

Oliver Wolf: And we've adopted a lot of the ethos of the core values, especially. We're not on EOS anymore. We've moved to like a differences. 

Erin Patchell: Yeah, Traction is great.

Totally. Yeah. It's a great book. I actually love the story, the Fable. I don't know if you've read it get a grip.

Oliver Wolf: No, if anyone listening is into Traction and or check out Get a grip. Yeah, it's cool. Basically what they do is it's a fable, it's a story of a company that looks to install EOS and they have an implementer come in and it goes through a lot of like, here's what could and couldn't happen. And anyways, it's a very good book. It's fun to read. 

Erin Patchell: Awesome. 

Oliver Wolf: So coming back to the core values, the way to think about it is like, okay, who are the best people in your organization and what are the characteristics about them that make them so great and that you appreciate about them? Right. It's a really good place to start with your core values.

Oliver Wolf: We came up with six when we founded the organization and since then have only modified one about six, seven months ago as it related to witnessing our team develop. So we went from like two years ago, two and a bit years ago founding to now. We're at about 30 people on the team, half full time operations and half salespeople. And the way that we've really done a good job of propagating our culture is when we hire, fire, recognize and promote people based on core values. Again, that comes from EOS, but how we do it, I think, is what's pretty special is in Slack, we have a celebrations channel. It's literally called celebrations and core values. And when we celebrate anyone, whenever possible, which is majority of the time, you associate it to a core value. So you say, hey, celebrating Kelvin for outcome driven because he did blah blah blah, celebrating Aldrin for radical responsibility because blah blah blah.

Oliver Wolf: And by creating that because again, humans want to be recognized, humans want to be seen, especially team members. It's such a key part of all of this. And so when someone sees someone else being seen and why they're being seen, in other words, associated to a core value, it fosters the culture. It paves the way for that culture because they're like, oh, well, for me to be recognized, I need to be radically responsible. I need to have win win mindset, I need to grow or die. Like these are our core values. So then they do that and then it permeates. Yeah.

Erin Patchell: Grow or die! Oh my gosh, yeah. That scales up big time.

Oliver Wolf: Yeah, totally.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that's really good.

Oliver Wolf: That's one of the big ones, for sure. Big one that comes up a lot in this space of like, business harmonization.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. So business harmonization, if I had to summarize it as operationalizing your values, how would that sound to you.

Oliver Wolf: To try to summarize what business harmonization is as a whole? Not really.

Erin Patchell: Not hitting the mark?

Oliver Wolf: No, your statement there is a part of the puzzle, right, okay. It's the part of the puzzle that relates to the people element. And it wouldn't be all of it either. Because now the other important part when it relates to people is the idea of conscious leadership, right? And so if you think of 15 commitments of conscious leadership by Jim Dethmer and just following that as much as possible, that's a big thing. We permeate into our culture as well. And that's a huge part of business harmonization, in my opinion, is recognizing that every person is a person, which unfortunately in a lot of organizations is not considered. So that's another element of just that one of the three pillars of, again, people, systems and a common goal.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so systems then how do you support in the system sense?

Oliver Wolf: So our agency, specifically so, again, our agency is a conscious sales agency. So we only work in the sales portion. We work with coaches, consultants and experts. And we come in at the point of when someone applies for a program to the point of signing a contract. Now, if we're speaking about specifically how our agency operates, then it's really everything to do with automations, integrations. We're in such a powerful time right now, the amount of output a single human can put out now because of automations and all these things, it's mind blowing. Now, again, Chat GPT coming in and AI and it's like the amount of output per person right now is insane. That's sort of the systems element is the combination of, like you said, operationalizing, procedurizing, creating all your SOPs, all that kind of fun stuff, and just constantly thinking to oneself, can this be automated or systemized or delegated or something of the kind and then documented so that it can be scaled.

Oliver Wolf: That's sort of the system side in its simplest form.

Erin Patchell: And then integrating the change side of things, I would assume?

Oliver Wolf: Yeah, for sure. And actually, how do you mean by that? Because I assume I know what you mean, but I'd love to hear what you mean by that.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, I'm assuming change management is a big part of your work as well.

Oliver Wolf: Right.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. Awesome. So how do you evaluate whether a business is healthy or do you do a gaps assessment? What's the process?

Oliver Wolf: There one of the things that actually I learned from one of my mentors, Alex Sharfin, who runs the SOS program, so he's coached like thousands of businesses, all this fun stuff. And he said one of the things he does when he goes into sorry, and he used to evaluate companies for sale, and one of the first things he did to evaluate a company is he would go from the top to bottom and ask what are the goals of the company? And then every layer down, he would see how far it would take to get to someone who says, I don't know. And he said, without a doubt, every single time that it was too high, the business was no good. But every time that it went to the janitor or whatever you want to call it, if they knew what the goals were too, those were the businesses that had explosive success. And so, in short, again, it kind of comes back to what I said earlier. It's like, how aligned is everyone and everything to the goals? That's ultimately what matters because it focused attention on very clear outcomes is what is needed. So that's, again, what I've seen, and again, the opposite is so painfully true. I've come into organizations where it's such a mess, right? There's all these different ways that things are happening, all these different directions and goals and so on and so forth.

Oliver Wolf: And it's literally like it just creates anxiety when there's just no like, oh, this is what we're doing and this is why we're doing it, and this is how we're doing it. Right?

Erin Patchell: Yeah. One of the things that I go in and help with, and similar to you, organizations that are feeling misaligned and chaotic a lot of the time… a lot of the time they have like, I would, I would say, like a creative culture. They want to nurture a creative culture. But you know that creative cultures, it usually means having people who have a lot of ideas, a lot of “ideas people”. Right. So you've got a lot of people with a lot of different micro visions of how things should develop, what's your advice for organizations like that out of curiosity?

Oliver Wolf: That's fun. Yeah. This is actually something that because we have a pretty creative culture as well, and we've solved that with the operating system that we use, which is like it's SOS by Alex Sharfen. And in short, what it comes down to is, first of all, a lot of people who come up with ideas are always afraid that their ideas will be lost. And so they feel like they need to get them out as soon as they have them. The issue is that when you get a lot of ideas out as soon as you have them there, it basically throws a grenade into what's already planned and what we're already moving towards, right? So it's like, hey, we're going in this direction and like, oh, idea, boom. Left turn. And then it's like, oh, idea, right turn.

Oliver Wolf: Oh, idea, left turn. And then instead of a straight line, you're doing this whole crazy maze. And so what we have is we literally have something called the Ideas and Priorities list. We use ClickUp for our project management software. And so we have an Ideas and Priorities list and within it we basically add ideas that we have and we ask ourselves, can this wait the week? Can it wait the month? Can it wait the quarter? Can it wait the year? Depending on what it can wait. And as you kind of filter yourself through it, we tag it accordingly. And then on that relative meeting so either our weekly meeting, our monthly meeting, our quarterly meeting, or our annual meeting, we review those tagged ideas. And so very urgent and important ideas will go into the weekly and we'll discuss them on the weekly to see if it's worth changing the plan for the month or changing the plan for the quarter and anything else, it gets pushed off to the next and the next and next.

Oliver Wolf: And of course, and I'm sure you've seen this time and time again, so often you throw an idea in that you thought, hey, can wait till the month. You get to the month, you look at the idea like, that was a dumb idea.

Erin Patchell: Yeah.

Oliver Wolf: Glad we didn't do that.

Erin Patchell: Yes, it's worth kicking the can down the road a lot of the time. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Yeah. So my experience is pretty similar, too, and it's always a process, right. And it gets more and more complicated the higher the responsibility level of the individual who's the big ideas person.

Oliver Wolf: Yeah, well, what's interesting, too is the higher up you go into the hierarchy of people who think to validate themselves as idea generators, the issue is they believe that's their value and that if they aren't pumping out ideas, they are failing or their worth is reduced or something like that, they're falling behind or whatever. It's a big ego thing. Ego is important. Ego is good, but it is something to check in on one's ego to think like, well, why do I feel like I actually have to put out ideas in order to be worthy or worth it kind of thing? So it's a whole other dialogue, letting go of that belief that one must have ideas to be of value.

Erin Patchell: That's a really good insight. Absolutely. I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole because I think we could talk about that for another hour. But I do want to touch on…. how has… I've got two questions. The first is going to be I want to know how being a father, becoming a father has changed your philosophy a little bit. Or if it has… I assume it has. And then my next question is going to be what is next for you and your business partner, David? And you can take it from there.

Oliver Wolf: I would I would love to meet the person who says their philosophy has not changed once they become a parent.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, maybe I wouldn't want to meet them.

Oliver Wolf: Maybe there's something wrong there in their noggin, but no. Yeah. So let's see how the philosophy has changed. At the end of the day, for me, ultimately, it kind of just comes down to there's more that I'm responsible for and so decisions have a larger impact. So I think ultimately, if I tried to just summarize it all, and I think parents could probably very much resonate, it's just you just feel like your decisions have more weight, therefore your decisions require more thoughtfulness, they require more of you. Such that and again, it's not about never making the wrong decision, but it's about making the best decision with the information you currently have. And again, now that there's more people, you're accountable to being more intentional about getting information and more intentional about how you look at the information and more intentional about the decision you ultimately make. So I think that that's really how my philosophies changed.

Oliver Wolf: I went more from like, come in guns blazing kind of thing on a decision of like, okay, let's move, let's go, bam, bang, bang, to like, actually, you know what? Let's take a moment here. Let's really evaluate the environment and then take a step forward.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that's great. And what's next?

Oliver Wolf: Yeah, for us, again, so we've thrown around the word conscious and conscious sales a lot. In short, basically, we want to make conscious sales no longer the outlier, but the standard. What conscious sales is in its simplest form and there's obviously depth to it, is it's empowering people to make an educated buying decision that's aligned to their highest selves. What that means is an empowered, educated decision. It's like a lot of people, when they come to buy something, it's usually from a space of like they have a pain, right. The only reason someone's going to buy something is because they have a pain that they want to resolve in some shape or form. And to empower them is to not have them focus too much on that pain that you have them come from a dark space versus actually reminding them that they are good with what they have and they get to be greater. A lot of the messaging and marketing out there is like you're not enough, you need this to be enough, right? Conscious sales part of it, the empowering part is like you are enough and you get to be more, right? And then so the big thing that I love is about buying decision whereas most sales trainings and sales dialogues and such and the standard right now is like get them to buy right? And so what we recognize and appreciate is get them to decide whether a yes or a no.

Oliver Wolf: Both are equally valuable because I guided them to making an educated buying decision. And then finally, it's like line to their highest self is again, that it sort of speaks to what I said earlier, but it's like, again, these people typically come from a place of fear or pain or this, that, the other. And they can often make a decision from that place as well. And so we need to be shepherds of making sure that they're deciding from the right place for the right reason, where there's a lot of power in being a salesperson, especially if you're a good one. You know that if you wanted to, you can manipulate them into getting into buying. It's very powerful and therefore, as we all know, with great power comes great responsibility. And so this is what's really cool about conscious sales is that all the techniques and strategies and tactics and things that people use in sales, they're still used generally in conscious sales. It's just from where you come from the lens you look at it through and how you apply them, right? And so that's a lot of what conscious sales is.

Oliver Wolf: In a summary, it was still pretty long but I'm trying to summarize a lot to it.

Erin Patchell: I'm sold. Well done.

Oliver Wolf: And so the three stage offer stack we have just to talk about what we're doing next. And I'll try to make it short. So we have like our highest tiered thing which is a conscious sales agency. So we work, like I said, experts, coaches, consultants, they need to be at least a million dollars in revenue a year. The reason why is that they need to have the business operations in place and generally optimized and streamlined and they need to have the lead flow or the call flow to be able to support a conscious sales team. There's a lot of mistakes that happen with hiring salespeople and that warrants a whole other conversation. But if I can at least share, one important tidbit is hiring a salesperson will not solve your sales problem. There's a really big nugget here.

Oliver Wolf: A lot of people do this. They hire a salesperson, but they don't have a sales environment for the salesperson and they forget that as the owner or the coach or the whatever they're able to sell because obviously it's personality led, right? And they don't have a documented system, they just have their system. And so they're basically like, well, I can sell it, he can sell it, I just got to get an A player salesperson. They'll figure it out. But the issue is you hire a player salesperson in a nonexistent sales environment, they will look like a C player.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. You got to set everyone up for success, right?

Oliver Wolf: Yeah. And so the Conscious Sales Agency plays with that scale. Then we have our Conscious Sales system which kind of speaks to what I just said now, which is to have a salesperson you got to have the environment. The environment is the system. So we have a done with you offer where the system we install into our agency clients. We will do it with you to install into your business for you to manage with all the SOPs and automations and all the things so that you can install A salesperson. And that's like the mid tier kind of thing, right? So that's usually companies between 400,000 and a million. And again, the reason for that is usually you got to have some kind of a tech person on staff and usually that tech person on staff comes around that level.

Oliver Wolf: Until then, usually the owner is like I'll figure it out, I'll throw together a calendly and a this and a.

Erin Patchell: That and whatever head cook and bottle washer, right?

Oliver Wolf: Yeah. There you go. And then the final thing is our sort of easiest entry which is just the Conscious Sales training. So it's the method that we use with our agency Salespeople that's enrolling quite consistently above 50%, which is really cool and way above average in the sales agency industry. And what's cool is very low refunds because obviously the whole point is it's someone that was actually effectively enrolled. They don't get nearly as much buyers remorse. There's chemicals behind that. Like there's only so much you can do.

Oliver Wolf: But anyways, so it's learning this method and applying it into your business. And this is where we know we're going to get to make our mark on the planet where we can truly make Conscious Sales. The standard is with this offer that's much more accessible, it's going to be like the beta I think is going to be 2500 or something like that and the full is going to be like five K, give or take. We'll see. And it's a powerful program. We're going through the alpha right now with our internal sales team to take them through that and then we're going to do our beta launch in October. And I'm really excited for that because the ultimate evolution of this, which will be in a year, is we're going to turn into a certification. Where you can get an actual conscious sales stamp that says, I'm conscious sales certified.

Oliver Wolf: And that's going to be powerful for your business to say, like, hey, we enroll people in a conscious sales way. So you can trust that when you get on this call, your best interest is in mind at every point of the engagement, because so many people are afraid of sales because they're afraid to be sold.

Erin Patchell: I love being sold to. Sell me, please, sell it to me. I love that. I have another one. Sorry, this is an unscripted question.

Oliver Wolf: Those are the best.

Erin Patchell: How do you want this to impact the world?

Oliver Wolf: That's a good question. Yeah. So one of my favorite books is Infinite Game by Simon Sinek, and he talks about, like, one of the goals you need to have is one that you know you won't achieve in your lifetime. Right. And so that is what this is. Like, we know that conscious sales, if it were applied across the board in all areas of all businesses and what's interesting, too, is you can also argue, like, sales is in much more than just businesses and sales interactions. Like, every relationship you have, you are quote unquote selling. Every political argument that is happening is a sales conversation.

Oliver Wolf: Right. Sales is basically having someone see what you're seeing and having them see it your way and deciding to move forward accordingly. That's generally what it is. Right. That's what politics is. That's what relationships are. Exactly. Right.

Oliver Wolf: And so if everyone adopted conscious sales, the world would be borderline utopic. And I don't believe in real utopia. I think that humanity would actually get very bored in a real utopia. But I do believe that if a majority of the population came from a place of conscious sales, we would see so many of the world's problems completely and entirely solved.

Erin Patchell: That's awesome. What does utopia mean for you?

Oliver Wolf: That's a good question.

Erin Patchell: Wow. Do we have enough time for another? We have another hour.

Oliver Wolf: That's a really loaded question. And we won't be able to get into full depth here, but I'll at least give a high level because to me, my perspective of utopia is I think of, like, Taoism, right. And Taoism says that there needs to always be opposing things, and without the opposing, the other doesn't exist. Right. The YinYang symbol all that. And the whole thing about Taoism, it's like I think it's zero led to one, one to two. No, one to two, two to three, three to 10,000, and won't get too much into what that means. Look that up.

Oliver Wolf: Taoism, one to two, two to three, three to 10,000. Very powerful.

Erin Patchell: Lao tzu’s Tao Te Ching.

Oliver Wolf: There you go.

Erin Patchell: Right there.

Oliver Wolf: There you go. Yeah. So utopia, it's not kind of what typically people think, which is like, everything's good, right? That's not what utopia is, because then if everything is good, nothing is. It's this interesting place of, like, the right balance of and I definitely don't have the answer. It's just this right balance of good and bad and that the really bad things are not happening anymore. But there's enough bad to have us appreciate the good.

Erin Patchell: That, to me, is utopia, the natural consequences, not the man made traumas.

Oliver Wolf: Maybe it's a good way to summarize it.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, there's always going to be natural disasters and things that happen to people, but can we just live without us screwing each other over all the time? That'd be nice.

Oliver Wolf: And again, that comes back to conscious sales, unconscious sales and such is basically screwing each other over by saying, like, hey, buy this thing because I want you to buy it so I can make a paycheck or you blah, blah, whatever. And again, cautious sales. Exactly right.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. Well, it has been a pleasure, sir.

Oliver Wolf: Indeed.

Erin Patchell: Okay, well, hopefully you'll come back and I hope everyone enjoyed this podcast today. So thank you very much, Oliver, and we'll see you soon. 

Maria Montessori, who founded the Montessori Method of Education said, “Now what really makes a teacher is love for the human child. For it is love that transforms the social duty of the educator into the higher consciousness of a mission.” And I loved that Oliver ended the idea… on the idea of having a big unreachable goal. Now, if you'd like to get a hold of Oliver, you can find him on LinkedIn at Oliver Wolf or at beyondthepeak.co. This is Erin Patchell signing off. 

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble.

Having had 32 jobs in 15 years, Steph Gillies has amassed an ample amout of experience to learn how to perfect the job search! Now as a professional resume writer and career coach, Steph Gillies helps individuals embrace their identitifies and land their dream jobs in a competitive economy.

Since 2020, she has helped over 1000 people improve their branding, tailor their resumes and land their dream jobs!

So folks, take your pens and papers out, and get ready to take notes on tips and tricks from the resume whisperer!

Stay in touch with Steph:

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Hiring managers are going to see the same resume, like that looks very similar from like 10 different people. And if you can really showcase your uniqueness and what sets you apart, that's really what's going to stand out.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. My name is Erin Patchell, your host, and I'm here with Steph Gillies, who is, well, how about we just let Steph say hi for now.

Hey, how's it going?

And now I will introduce you. So Steph is a career story coach helping individuals embrace their misfit identity and land their dream job. She's had 32 jobs in 15 years and through that experience she really learned how to perfect the job search. When she was laid off from what she thought was her dream job in 2020, she jumped full-time to business as a resume writer and career coach and has since helped over 1,000 people improve their branding and land their dream job. Welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure and we kind of got the opportunity to work together a few years ago, which is how we met.

Yeah, unfortunately, not too closely. But I always heard such great things about the work that you did. And yeah, so you're you're a real pro.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah. And then I heard about you through, you know, that same organization and the great work that you're doing with your new company. So thank you so much. Yes. OK, so before we get started, why don't you just tell folks a little bit about yourself other than, you know, maybe something that's not in your bio? Like, what is it that brings you joy? Yeah, I think that, you know, working with people over the past few years, there's a few things that I've really learned and that I really love to share with people that I've learned from different people. You know, when I grew up, when I was younger, people always told me, you know, you got to go to school, get a job, work there until you retire. Right.

That was the message. You know, a lot of baby boomers passed on that message to their kids. And I was one of those people who had that message passed on. And, you know, after, you know, helping a thousand people with their personal branding and, you know, their career story, it's quite interesting to see how many people, you know, don't have that linear career path and how many people have made complete changes in their life. And so I'm one of those people who've made lots of different changes throughout my career. You know, I have multiple passions. I'm very excited about different things.

And, you know, I think that I know this is supposed to be about me and I'm not talking about me at all, but I think that's just really, you know, what I'm passionate about and what my message is, is to really teach people that you don't have to just be one thing. You know, you can be whatever you want to be. If you want to change your job, you know, five times you go and do that. If you want to marry multiple jobs together, I think that's also really exciting.

 And so, yeah, so I think that's kind of what I'm really passionate about and kind of a little bit of my own story as well. Yeah. Okay. So let's a little nugget from within that, like finding that thread. So I think a lot of people have a hard time with that when they're multi-passionate and, you know, maybe they're curious about lots of things and they want to dive into lots of things and live lots of different lives, like especially career lives.

You still need to find that thread through everything. Like what is it that connects all the dots so that your next employer, you know, can understand your story. So maybe we can take that and table it and talk about that a little bit later because I think that could be yeah for sure yeah so uh what makes you a weirdo Steph Gillies um well you know I call myself a misfit because I never really felt like I fit in you know growing up I went to an all girls private school um I wore a kilt every day to school and I've worn a dress maybe three times since then. 

You know, I never really, I never really felt like I fit in with all the girls and, you know, but I wasn't, you know, boyish enough to fit in with the boys. And so I was always kind of, I was always kind of different. And I went to church for a while and I would ask a lot of questions and they would tell me to stop asking questions because it's just about, you know, whatever the message was that they were giving and that didn't work for me either.

 And so, and then, you know, as you, as you shared in my bio, I had 32 jobs in 15 years and every time I would get into a job, I would get really good at it and then I would get bored. So I'd move on to something else. This was before I knew what informational interviews were, and I probably could have saved myself a lot of time had I done a little more research, but that's okay. It's part of my story. And, you know, it was a lot of fun. Honestly, I had, you know, at one point I had like four different jobs. They were all part-time and I just, yeah, I was just marrying different passions together, trying different things and trying to find out what fit. And so I think that, you know, in my 30s has really been the time where I have embraced a lot more of who I am, rather than trying to fight it or trying to hide from it.

So I, you know, this in the past two years, I shaved my head and got my nose pierced. So you know, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You can be whoever you want to be. you know it's been a lot of fun yeah yeah absolutely you can be whoever you want to be I think that's like a general sense that especially younger people have today the you know I'm raising whatever three uh gen z kids gen z yeah that's right oh my gosh my brain is like not it's like not computing all of the different generations these days. What are they all called again? Yeah, so three Gen Zs and they are fully whoever they want to be. You know what I mean? Like they literally don't care. They're just like going to be who they are.

So I think we need to prepare for that too. Totally. Yeah, it's a different world now than it was for sure when I was growing up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, don't put baby in the corner. Yeah. It's a different world now than it was for sure when I was growing up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't put baby in the corner. Yeah. That was not the message at the all girls Catholic school that I went to. So Oh my gosh. But it's okay.

So you've worked with, you've helped over 1000 people improve their brand branding, their career stories and land their dream job. How did you end up in this niche after having, you know, what was it, 32 jobs in 15 years? Yeah, it's so when I had done all those jobs, I was kind of, you know, trying to, I'd always been interested in business. And so I was like, what could I do? And I found, you know, Career Profession professionals of Canada. And I was like, oh, there's a resume certification. So about nine years ago now, I took that certification. And I was like, maybe I'll do something with it. But then I was full time in the nonprofit world, which as most people know, it's a lot of work, you know, you're often overworked and underpaid. And so I was just busy, you know, doing that. And I wasn't really focusing on, you know, you're often overworked and underpaid. And so I was just busy, you know, doing that. And I wasn't really focusing on, you know, my business in my spare time.

So I only wrote a few resumes. And when I was laid off in 2020, it was kind of a decision point for me. I had to decide, you know, do I want to go back to work in the nonprofit world, which I wasn't super excited about? Or, you know, should I just dive in and start a business? And so I took some time to think about it and I did decide to dive into business. I had a part, I did get a part-time job while, while I was off and then I completely quit it. And I started two businesses actually, but the other one didn't work out. And one of them was writing resumes. And I thought, you know, this will just be temporary. It's something that I know how to do and I'll, I'll get good at it. And then, you know, I'll just figure out what I want to do. And here we are three years later, I'm still doing it. You know, I love, I love helping people, you know, figure out that career story and really helping them to identify what sets them apart so that when they are applying for jobs, then they can, you know, stand out in the job application process because, you know, everyone and their dog says they're really good at teamwork.

So how can you set yourself apart from the people who are like, Hey, I'm great at teamwork, you know, because we all say that in our resume. So my clients don't, but like, no, I'm not good at teamwork. Like, no, I hate that. Yeah. Oh yeah. I have people that were like that. Yeah. Don't put that in there. That's not true. Right. Like, yeah. Well, and knowing, knowing your strengths, right. Not just knowing your strengths, knowing your, you know, your purpose, your interests. So diving into that, how essential would you say that is in terms of the job search like today compared to the way it was when you first started? Yeah. You know, with remote work, I mean, I started my business right in the middle of the pandemic. And so things were changing, you know, as I started. But I noticed that, you know, pre-pandemic, you know, they said the stats are the average application gets about 250 applicants, which is a lot. You know, when you think about that, that's a lot. But nowadays with remote work, we're talking like, I don't know the exact stats, so don't quote me on this, but we're talking like, I've heard recruiters say they get like 5,000 to 2,000, sorry, 500 to 2,000 applicants per job application.

 So that's crazy. Like, how are you even supposed to navigate that many, that many resumes? Like it's not possible. So that means that the, for sure. Yeah. That means that it's so much more competitive than it was before. And I would say that's, that's more true for entry level positions rather than, you know, if you're mid-level or senior level, director level, you're not, your competition is not as high because, you know, there's just less people who have the experience that you're bringing to the table. And so this is more for those entry-level positions like customer service roles, you know, office administration, you know, types of roles like that. They're really getting a lot of applicants because people can apply now from all across Canada to the same role if it's remote, of course.

Yeah. So, you know, you're literally the perfect person to be talking to this audience because a lot of our listeners are multi-passionate, multi-hyphenate generalists, weirdos, rebels, like don't fit neatly inside a box, have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder, you know, want to try different things, maybe didn't feel like they were a right fit in a lot of places. So like, what, what kind of advice do you give to people right now in this economy, when they have that sort of that, that, that, you know, they need a purpose. They need, they need to be passion driven. Yeah. I think when you're, when you're really looking at the job application process right now is the best time to really lean into your uniqueness, your superpowers, you know, what sets you apart. You know, the hiring managers are going to see the same resume, like that looks very similar from like 10 different people. And if you can really showcase your uniqueness and what sets you apart, that's really what's going to stand out.

So an example I have is I have a client who is a death doula. So she helps people transition into the next life. And that is typically I would like two years ago, I would say no, we're not going to include that on your resume. Like, that doesn't make sense. It's not relevant. And she was applying to sales roles. But now we actually incorporated that into her resume and into her story because it's a huge part of showing how she can really relate to people on a different level. relate to people on a different level. And so, you know, if you have two sales resumes that both are very similar, but this one person has this really strong empathy that she brings from, you know, a different certification and something different that she does, and she's able to, you know, really relate to people from all different walks of life, you now start to see a difference between these two sales resumes that are almost exactly the same.

 And so really diving into, you know, what are those things outside of work that you can leverage? Like someone else I know does, you know, triathlons, you know, different things like that, that showcase that, you know, they, they have drive and dedication, you know, anything that you can think of, that's really going to set yourself apart and, and explaining why, like, it's not good enough to just put like, you know, triathlon finisher, right? You need to explain why that's important. You know, what is it about the triathlon that you think would be beneficial to this, this role or this position or to who you are. And I think that's really where you're starting to see the differences, especially with recruiters. Um, I was talking to a recruiter recently and he said the most frustrating thing he finds is when he sees a whole bunch of resumes and none of them say why they want to apply to this position, right?

 None of them have drawn the line from A to B. They're all just like, you know, the same, the same resume that they're submitting to everything. They're not like, this is why I'd be the best fit for this job. This is why I'm applying to this job. This is what sets me apart, right? That's what he wanted to see. So I thought that was quite interesting. And is what's the best way to articulate that or where is the best? Is it like in the email body? Is it the cover letter? Is it within the resume? Like, how do you do that? Yeah, I mean, it's really, there's no rules in terms of where to include that because that is a different, that is a different take than it used to, you know, than two years ago. So definitely the cover letter is an easy place to include that. But I, but for this, um, for the sales client that I was sharing, we put it right in the resume.

You know, we put it right in that top paragraph because we're showcasing what sets her apart and why she would be the best fit for this position. And so instead of just, you know, having a top paragraph that's like four sentences that are pretty general about why you'd be the best fit, this one was very targeted using, you know, her empathy and her other experience to showcase why she would be the best person for this position. Because typically hiring managers do look at that resume first, and they kind of, you know, at that point they decide, you know, is this a keeper or one to get rid of?

And then they'll review the cover letter after, you know, maybe look up LinkedIn. Um, but they're not looking at all the documents for all 500 people who are applying to the role. Right. So that first part of your resume is the most important real estate. Cause that's really where they're looking first. of your resume is the most important real estate because that's really where they're looking first. Interesting. And in terms of like, I'm assuming employers are still using ATS systems, the automated, I don't know what it stands for.

Applicant tracking systems. Yeah. Applicant tracking system. Can you tell I'm not a recruiter or in recruitment or in this field at all? And nor do I use them, by the way. So applicant tracking systems, I'm assuming are just like being used more than ever, probably. Is that true? Yeah. So I mean, there's like hundreds of applicant tracking systems out there. So it's hard to say, you know, what, you know, some of the features are. But what I've noticed is generally speaking, applicant tracking systems aren't eliminating people without a human eye. So typically the resumes go into the applicant tracking system and then the human, the recruiter is doing this keyword searching. And then they're doing that searching kind of based on the keywords that they put in the job posting and then finding which resumes pop up based on that. I mean, that's not a hard and fast rule because a lot of ATSs out there do their own thing and who knows what they all do. But if you have like, you know, specific qualifications, like it requires a bachelor's degree and you don't have one, then yes, it can eliminate you. But typically it's, you know, the hiring manager who's doing the searching. Right. Okay. Yeah.

 So, I mean, education is probably still the number one thing. Is it still the number one thing that, um, that businesses are looking for these days in terms of, you know, um, like qualifications, like basic qualifications? Um, I think it depends on the company, honestly. I've seen, um, you would be surprised by the amount of executive resumes I've written that don't even have an education section on the resume because they don't have any education. They have a high school degree that they diploma that they have from like 25 years ago. And so it's really not as important as it would have been, you know, 10 years ago. Education was everything. I think now once you hit 10 years into your career, you're really they're really looking at that experience over your education. Because like, for example, a client of mine is in software engineering. And he had a Bachelor of Software Engineering from like 1985.

Like, that's not even relevant. Yeah, not even relevant anymore. not even relevant yeah it's like not even relevant anymore the systems he was working on in school don't even exist so yeah so I think that I mean I think education is important but I also don't think that it's everything you know it's it's I'm not a huge post-secondary person um I think that you know you have a bachelor's degree it's good enough you don't need to go back for too much more unless it's something you're really excited about but um I think I mean you know, if you have a bachelor's degree, it's good enough. You don't need to go back for too much more unless it's something you're really excited about. But I think, I mean, if you're applying to schools, like universities, if you're applying to banks, any of those more traditional fields, they're going to be looking at your education.

But if you're looking at, you know, more new age organizations, you know, anything in software, you know, any of those companies that are more forward thinking the education is definitely less important interesting okay well that's definitely new um canadian job market like you know it how would you describe it right now i would say it's competitive um i would say that the typically people you know, the stats were that you would get a new job in three to six months. And I would say that, I mean, these are my own stats that I'm just making up, like the ones that I'm sharing that are updated. I would say now most of my clients are seeing more like six to nine months just because it's taking because the competition is higher. It's taking longer because you have to apply to more jobs. And networking is just so much more important than it was, because if you know someone in an organization who can share your name with the hiring manager, it's just and they have a thousand applications to go through.

You can bet that your name is going to go to the top of that list because that saves them a whole lot of time in doing that searching. because that saves them a whole lot of time in doing that searching. So really leveraging your network and seeing what's out there is, is a great way to kind of move that forward. Okay, yep. Good advice. So the the sort of like the hidden job market is alive and well. I'm seeing a lot of people complaining, like I'm hearing from a lot of job seekers that they seem to be like rejected almost immediately. Like they'll submit their resume. And I've had a few clients for whom this was true. They'd submit their resume and like within like an hour, they'd have a rejection, even though they felt like they qualified for the job. Do you think is that, that sounds pretty automated to me, would you say? Yeah, definitely. I would say that some sort of, you know, applicant tracking system, you know, I don't know, I'm not an applicant tracking system expert, but I just like, that makes me wonder, I wonder if they hit a limit, like they're like, oh, we're only going to accept 300 applications.

 I don't know, this is just conjecture, but you know, maybe they hit like, you know, they're only going to accept this many. I don't know, this is just conjecture, but, you know, maybe they hit like, you know, they're only going to accept this many. And if you're not in the top 300, then they just automatically reject you or they have specific, sometimes they, you can set up an applicant tracking system to have specific like formula or keywords that they look for. And if you don't have that, then they just don't even bother. And that might be, you know, the hiring manager's way to whittle down these like, you know, 500 applicants down to something more manageable. But I don't I'm not 100% sure about that. Right. So probably worth applying early, applying often and reapplying with new information if necessary.

And hiring someone like you probably to help out with that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, a lot of my clients, when they have an updated resume and one that they can tailor to the applications, they do start to see more interviews. Of course. Yeah. There's any specific format that people should be, you know, either wary of or like a best practice that you'd recommend? I mean, the chronological format is typically the best format. And that's where you have, a little description at the top, a list of maybe your skills, and then your work education in reverse chronological order. So most recent first, obviously, because nobody cares really, but what you did 20 years ago, that's typically the best format.

 I do see some people who use a functional format. A functional format is where you front load all of your skills and then you just list your work experience and don't actually describe it. And that can be a concern. Hiring managers do tend to find that one a little bit concerning because they wonder if a you know, a client is, you know, trying to hide something, hide, you know, a career gap or hide the fact that maybe they didn't do this job for 10 years and they've done something else for the past 10 years and they're trying to hide that. And so they really want to see, you know, accomplishments under each work experience rather than just like all the accomplishments at the top because that way they can know that okay this is the past five years that they've done this you know really great work or um you know or it wasn't in their previous job you know maybe six years ago but they can see that it's recent and not something that you're trying to hide so i would definitely steer away from that functional format and steer towards that chronological format even though sometimes the functional format is a little easier. Yeah. And are people are, would you say like employers or hiring managers are more willing to sort of like accept people with gaps in their resumes or is it still like a major bias? I'm none of my clients. I mean, everyone has a gap in their resume now, like really COVID, um, created lots of gaps in resumes.

 And so I don't think that that hasn't really been a problem for a lot of my clients. Um, you know, I think the key is in an interview that you can explain why there's a gap, you know, what, what was the, what was happening there? I think the bigger issue, and I don't want to say issue because I don't think it's a gap, you know, what, what was the, what was happening there? I think the bigger issue, and I don't want to say issue because I don't think it's an issue, but like people feel like it's an issue is when they maybe took 10 years off to parent their kids or whatever, you know, be the home manager. And there's ways around that, you know, like for some of my clients who have done that, we actually add that in as a work experience. I worked with a client who had a husband who had a very severe, you know, medical issue. And so she took five years off and she was caring for him.

And she was like, now I have nothing to put on my resume. And I was like, this is absolutely a job. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean you don't have work experience. Because she was planning all his medical appointments, him to these appointments you know advocating for his needs um you know caring for him as needed doing everything around the home you know so we just created a job around that um and we we described it in the same way that you would a regular job and it just showcases that you, there are transferable skills from those times in your life when you might need to, you know, take care of kids or do something different or go on a, go on a one year sabbatical and travel the world.

I mean, there's lots of things that you can bring out of those experiences that give you more of that life experience. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So let's go back to the the the like drawing a thread like the the branding the storytelling side of this uh do you have any clients who how are just like had like like a really diverse like wacky kind of job experience and like tell me like how you actually helped them create a story out of this yeah I mean my own story is like a good example, but also like I worked with another client who was laid off like four times in three years. And so how do you turn that into a story that doesn't make it look like they're jumping around so much? And then same with myself, you know, having 32 jobs, how do you create a resume that doesn't look like I can't make up my mind about anything.

 And so it's really about, about getting creative and sometimes having multiple resumes. So when I was creating my own resume, when I was applying for jobs, I had different resumes for different focuses. So I'd like, you know, if I was doing customer service, then I would have one resume that focused only on the jobs that were specific to that role. And then, you know, if I wanted to do something, I mean, I did weird things. So if I wanted to apply to be like a rock climbing instructor, because that's one of the things I did, I would have a resume specific for that with the different jobs that I had where I like taught rock climbing and like, you know, whatever. So there were multiple different threads and I just like picked and choosed which resume fit based on the application that I was applying for.

So that's a really great way. I mean, I still do that. I have a resume focused one. I have a workshop focused one and I have a mental health focused resume and they're all a little bit different in how they describe my work experience and how they describe, you know, what my skills are. And so same thing for this client who was laid off, you know, several times. they describe, you know, what my skills are. And so same thing for this client who was laid off, you know, several times. There's, you know, I also had another client who had like 10 jobs in five years, like it was wild. And how do you turn that into a resume that a hiring manager isn't going to think is red flags. And so some ways to do it is to combine roles together.

 So if you had some really similar positions, like this one person was a recruiter at three different companies and they were all, you know, they were one after the other, but there was just a lot of layoffs involved in there. And so instead of, you know, listing them each separately, we combined them together into one role and listed the different companies so that because the job description, the accomplishments were essentially the same. And, um, it showed that he had been a recruiter for like a year and a half instead of showing like, you know, three, six months stints or whatever. Um, so trying to get, just getting creative about it and remember that there's like, there are resume rules, but that doesn't mean that you can't break them. Right. That's why we're here. That's why we're weirdos at work. Let's break the rules. Um, so, you know, if you have, if you have two jobs that are the same, just put them together. Like you don't need to separate them or, you know, I've seen so many resumes where they list three jobs and then all, all the bullet points are exactly the same. You're like, who wants to read that? Nobody wants to read that just as much as you don't want to write it.

So, you know, put those together. They don't need to be separated. And, you know, describing, you can sometimes take the opportunity to describe any red flags in your cover letter. So for this individual who'd been laid off a bunch of times, you know, there's an opportunity for her to explain in her cover letter, you know, this isn't me jumping around. This was, you know, experienced multiple layoffs and was able to secure jobs really quickly, which can show your determination, your innovation, you know, your ability to network, you know, just showcasing those skills and explaining to a hiring manager why, you know, why it's not a red flag. not a red flag. Right. Okay. Gotcha. And in terms of like the, like a lot of the time I have clients coming to me and they're like, they've like you, they're very diverse in what they've done a lot of the time because they have many different interests and, or, you know, failed fast. You know what I mean? They're like, well, don't like that one. Don't like that one.

Don't like that one. What do I like? And I think that's the whole point. It's like, what, what drew you to that in the first place? Was it like, what, what drew you to that in the first place? Was it like, in some cases, obviously it's going to be like money. That's important for a lot of people, survival. But if it's not survival, usually we have some options, you know, so there has to be something, you know, within that, that drew you there.

So what is that thread that we can pull out? How do you do work with clients on that? Is that something that you can incorporate into your work? Yeah, absolutely. I'm just currently reading the book, How to Be Everything, a guide for those who still don't know what they want to be when they grow up by Emily Wapnick. She has a really great, they have a really great TED talk that we can link in the show notes. And it's all about, you know, people who are the term that they, that they created was multi-potentialite. So someone who has lots of different, you know, passions or maybe changes their mind a lot. Hello, that's me. You know, but, but the interesting thing about this book is that they talk about how I'm just trying to articulate. Think about my thoughts here. They talk about how, you know, in the world, it's it's expected to stick with one thing. 

Right. You're going to get a job and you're going to stick with it. And then if you if you do move, it's going to be in the same industry or it's going to be a similar job. if you do move, it's going to be in the same industry or it's going to be a similar job. But one thing that I found really interesting about this concept is that these people who are multi-potentialites might finish a job sooner. So like, what is the end for you? Why did it end? So for me, like when I think about when I, after reading this book and then thinking back onto my experience, I was always like, oh, what's wrong with me? I can't make a decision. I can't stick to one thing. You know, everyone else has this like decision of what they want to be and they're sticking to it.

And I can't do that. Like, why is this a problem for me? And this book really talks about how, um, how, you know, what is there's, there's obviously something you get out of it and however you end it is, is how you want to end it. So like I would, I would master something. I would get really good at a job and then I would get bored and be like, okay, well that was cool, but now I don't want to do that anymore and move on. And so that was me completing something just in a different way, in a non-traditional way, rather than completing something in a traditional way where you just stick with it forever. And so really thinking about, you know, what are those things that you're getting out of these, out of these experiences and knowing that just because you change your mind or want to move on to something different, or you learned everything you need to know about that. And now you're ready to try something different. That's not a problem, right? Like that's okay. You can do that and still have a really fulfilling career.

 I've worked with lots of people who are like, you know, I'm so concerned about my resume because, you know, I've jumped around different industries and I'm not, you know, a specialist in anything. And the world wants a specialist, you know, that's what the world wants. That's what everyone thinks. The world wants a specialist. But what I've noticed is that a lot of these people who are more generalists or Jack or Jill of all trades, whatever you want to call it, they tend to be able to secure jobs in many different areas because they can take their skills, everything they've learned in one industry, they can bring it into another industry, bring new perspectives and new ideas. Then they learn everything they want about that industry.

And they're like, okay, now let's go implement this into a new industry and then really bring that innovation. And so I think that, um, I don't really remember what the initial question was because I just like talking about something I'm excited about, but I think that is really, um, you know, what people need to focus on, right? Like being who, being truly who you want to be and leveraging that and not worrying about, you know, the world saying you need to be a specialist or you need to choose one thing because you don't need to choose one thing. No. Okay. It's about building the story and knowing who you are and why you're engaging in certain things and really trying to understand yourself in order to build that thread through all of your stories, all of your different work experiences.

 And then eventually what you did and what I did is like, cause my, my, not quite as dramatic in terms of like 32, but like, you know, I did do quite a few things that are very different, like very, very like all over the place kind of stuff. But figuring out why I was doing that took a long time. And once I did, it actually helped me figure out what I wanted to do and that what I wanted to do that I could actually do for a while, probably, you know, and similar story for you, I think. Yeah. I mean, I think being in business is a great place for people who are multi-passionate because, you know, you can make changes, you know, every day is a little bit different. It's often not, you know, when you get into a job, it can sometimes be exactly the same every day, depending on the type of job you're in.

And so being in business is just an easy way to kind of make your own career and make it what you want. And when you get bored, you make a change, right? Like you can hire someone to do that thing you mastered and train them on it and then try to do something different, right? Like there's definitely opportunities there. Definitely. Yeah. Awesome. So I can just, I'm sensing the time here, but this has been a really, really awesome conversation. I hope this resonated with a lot of people. So practical, your advice.

 And we're going to make sure that everyone knows how to get in touch with you in the show notes, the website, LinkedIn, you know, everything, your podcast as well. And I think I'm coming on your podcast. We recorded some point. When's that going to, when's that happening? I don't sure. I'd have to look. I didn't look. I don't remember these types of things. Okay. So I'm going to be on Steph's podcast. Steph's coming on our podcast.

And I guess finally, do you have any like words of inspiration for folks who are kind of going through, you know, a job search or, you know, feel like they're a bit of a misfit and trying to like put all the puzzle pieces together? Yeah. I think there's a quote from that book. I was sharing how to be everything by Emily Wapnick. And it says, what would your life be like if you gave yourself permission to be everything you want it to be? So I think that's been like a really big message in my own life recently is just like, stop fighting, you know, the parts of yourself that are multi-passionate or the parts of yourself that want to do these, you know, other things, and just really embrace it and, and really start to dive into who you are.

Because the people who come to me who are typically really, like confident and authentic, they tend to land jobs quicker than people who are like, you know, more like, Oh, I'm not really sure I don't want to, I don't want to talk about myself, or I don't want to share that because that's too much or whatever.

You know, those people tend to struggle a little more in their job search because they're not, they're not portraying their full self and they're not portraying themselves in a confident way. So really just, you know, embracing that authenticity, embracing who you are and just really showing up as yourself, you know, whatever that means and whatever you're comfortable sharing. I think that is the big key. That's an amazing message to close things out. Thanks so much.

Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great to be here.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Erin

Good day, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we discuss how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose lead to more visionary organizations. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and today I have a very special guest with us. My new friend Joel Silverstone. Welcome to the podcast, Joel.

Joel 

Thank you, Erin, and thank you for I've moved up to the status of a new friend. So, I appreciate that. Thank you.

Erin

Ohh, absolutely and soon friend, I think, and colleague.

Joel 

And colleague. Yeah. Yeah, well, we go from colleagues to being a friend. That's. Yeah, that's like a that's. That's a game-changer. That means that when we're not working, we can still reach out to each other. Say hi.

Erin

Oh, then we're already friends. Alright? 

Joel 

Perfect.

Erin

 Perfect. OK, so everyone. Joel, I'll, I'll introduce Joel in a minute. But first, I'll ask Joel, what are we talking about today?

Joel 

We're talking about improvisation, and improvisation doesn't mean about being funny. Improvisation means a way to think differently and, how we work and how we connect with others.

Erin

Amazing. And I have a lot to say about this topic, too, so stay tuned, everybody.

Erin

All right, everyone, let's meet Joel Silverstone with a playbook honed over two decades across the globe. Joel supports individual talents to become synergistic dream teams through the art of stellar communication, empathy, and interpersonal Influence. What you might not know about Joel is that he is also a second City Advanced Conservatory alumni and has been a performer instructor with improv troops. Theodore Schneider is back ally players. He's taught film, TV and improv acting across the country and in the United States. He uses a lot of the techniques to break down different barriers like and develop trust and, communication and innovation in teams. And so, Joel, thank you so much for joining me today.

Joel 

Well, my new friend Erin, thank you for having me on the show, and this is something where you and I have we found something in common, but as soon as we said the word improv, it triggered something with us and we've developed this, this bond over that. So, this is this. I'm really looking forward to having this discussion and sharing with everyone some of the ideas about how improv can help them in their work and in the way that they communicate and help them with their leadership as well.

Erin

Well, I know you and I met at Disrupt HR just a few months ago. It feels like. How long has it been now? When was that June? It feels like another season. Yeah, yeah.

Erin

Oh my gosh, why is It? It has only been like 3-4 months It feels like it was a lifetime ago now. But yeah, so meeting you at Disrupt HR was a real highlight for me because you just have such a calming presence. You know, you're obviously a very talented and interesting person, but then talking to you about, you know, how we can integrate kind of like this, I want to say fun, but it like improvisation isn't always fun, but it becomes fun, more fun as you practice it.

Erin

Right

Joel 

yeah, you really got that so well. Like we really complement each other. Erin, you bring the insight, and you have this authority. You have this voice of authority. I don't know if I was ever giving you this feedback, but when you speak, it's like, oh, Erin speaking, everyone, let's listen. So, I noticed that when you were doing your Disrupt speech as well. And this ties in with, you know, what we're going to talk about today as well because sometimes we're not sure how to demonstrate our authority. And again in the trap sometimes of being a boss, and like you said about improvisation, it is fun, and we want to bring that element but It's also learning a little bit more about yourself and how to be yourself in in different situations.

Erin

Yeah. And I think I said this in a previous podcast, but I feel it's relevant here. It's like, I really feel like, you know, that we aren't necessarily like the person who we become by accident. We get to know ourselves better when we become really intentional about who we are and how we're developing and what we want in life. Yeah, so I don't think we accidentally become who we're supposed to be I think we do that through intention, and I think Improv is actually a huge piece of this puzzle.

Joel 

Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to discussing this.

Erin

Yeah. So, let's do it. Tell me how you got into this space.

Joel 

You know, I want to say I got into acting, and improvisation was a part of it. I always was or always have been an actor starting, you know, as a, as a, as a little Joel. So, like, little Archie Little Joel, I was always an actor. And then, when I was maybe 13 or so, my mom put me in an improv group, which actually wasn't really an improv group. It was for teens, and it was owned by social workers. So they what they did is they used improv activities for us to be able to share what we were dealing with at the time and what was hard about that and I continue to bring that into into workshops here is that that's the idea of improv isn't about being funny because here the topics we were talking about, you know, drugs, alcohol, pregnancy, sex, all those kinds of topics that we're dealing with peer pressure We all you know, are generally not funny. As I laugh about them as I say it.

Erin

Right.

Joel 

Yeah, that uncomfortable laugh. But that was. Yeah, that improv is about kind of what you just said, which is about learning about yourself. And when we're put into this situation of there's an audience in front of us, and we can't really hide, and we have to say what's going to come instinctively to us, and this is what I love. This ties me into one of the first rules of improv, which is your first thought, best thought, first thought, best thought. And when we start to trust our instincts of our first thought best thought, interesting things start to happen. It's not about being perfect, but it's about taking the steps towards getting there and maybe discovering I never realized that until I said it out loud, and that's basically what happened in these workshops.

So from there, I continued the journey with improvisation within being in Montreal with a group called Theatre Schmeider, which, you know, such a great name and it was so much fun. We do improv on the weekends in, in different bars and then that led me to Vancouver, where I was doing improv with the back alley players, which was in downtown Vancouver. There and then led me to Toronto, where I became a member of  the Second City, second City Master Program Conservatory program, and we did performances there on Sunday nights there Monday night, something like that at Second City and then bringing this world of improvisation out into corporate training. So there we go. There's I'll leave that with you Erin. There, there's a lot there's the world of improvisation in 3 minutes.

Erin

You didn't tell me, though. Why?

Joel 

Yeah, that's a good point. I never really thought about the why, except for that. I guess I had fun doing it, so I did. I had fun doing the social work one, not so much, but it, but I enjoy I did enjoy the performance aspect of it, so I did enjoy getting up on stage and seeing what would come next, the camaraderie that happens with the other improv, the improvers and yeah, and I do, I do enjoy, you know, I said it's not about being funny. I do enjoy it. I do. Having fun, and I do enjoy laughing, so I do enjoy that part of it.

Erin

OK, that's good. I mean, you've been doing this for, I mean, quite a while when 13 years old. We're not going to age you or anything, but it's been at least a couple of decades. Yeah, we'll say 

Joel 

something like that, yeah.

Erin

Yeah. And then corporate training, how does that integrate?

Joel 

Whatever we do, we get stuck, and so one of the things about bringing it into the training was how do we get unstuck, how do we change up the way that we think. And Improv is it takes me back to, like specifically, I could think back to doing some work with a very difficult audience, and they were coming for a four day in person customer service training. So and, Erin, even as I say that, you know, four days in person, I 

Erin

Like, I know.

Joel 

Yeah, I start to roll. I'm out of here. Yeah. So people are already arriving with that attitude. On top of that, these people, on average, have already been doing customer service for 20 years. They were in a unionized environment. There were 50 of them coming to the training, and their job was changing. They were basically their job was basically being demoted, and they were in an environment on top of that where they often dealt with a lot of verbal threats and even physical threats often. So there's a high-stress environment. So it'd be crazy to go, hey, let's do why don't we do some improv exercise activities? But the beauty of that is that like it's changing your thinking because when you come to training, what you really want is you want to learn a little bit more about yourself and what can learn about myself that I can actually use and use from this training and improv? Is that which is some of the activities we're going to do change the way that you might see things, hear things, react to things and force you to look at things from a different perspective.

Erin

Absolutely, yeah, and it's reciprocal. You know, it really is or has the potential to be a culture-building activity.

Joel 

Absolutely, it really well the same way that it created a bond with us as we talked about some of the values within improvisation. It goes, goes within the culture, and I'll turn it over to you for a second here because I know you also bring a background and some experience with the world of improv. After all, this was a passion idea of yours to bring this into the corporate world.

Erin

 it has been, yeah, it was when I was working with the federal government, probably about three years ago, that it kind of like struck me like a bolt of lightning that we have folks who, you know, all of the challenges that I was seeing with the different teams, you know, with their leaders, the sometimes lack of trust or distrust, even the conflict, the kind of like intellectual sort of nature of the roles a lot of the time where everyone's sort of living up in their heads, kind of very academic in a lot of different departments. And really needing to get brought down back and also this culture where it's there's it's like a highly, highly governed culture, you know, lot like, you know, lots of red tape. Everyone knows that, but what people don't always know is that, like, it creates this culture where it's like a culture of perfectionism.

Right. And so, I was seeing this. I'm like, what tools, what you know solutions could we develop and it literally like, like I said, a bolt of lightning improv, you know, gets people out of their comfort zones, helps us get back into our bodies builds. You know, we're learning to use our instincts again, like our gut instincts. We're building trust between people because we have to. When we're in an improv relationship, there's no room for perfectionism. You know, there's no room for, you know, we want to make each other look good. You know, it's a positive relationship. It's not like a competitive relationship. So anyways, and that Harkins back to when I was 13 years old, because I think it was, I think it was 13 actually when he said there came like printer, I was 13 too. When I was introduced to improv in Carleton Place, where I grew up, and it was called imaginex. The program that I did and it was like, you know, a summer day camp kind of program, and I was, you know, I had what we call now selective mutism and back then, you were like, really, really shy. But we know selective mutism is actually on the anxiety spectrum. So, I had a very high social anxiety. I barely ever talked outside of my house. I had almost zero friends. I basically had one friend, maybe two friends whom I would actually feel comfortable talking to, and then I went into this improv workshop. It literally changed my life because it gave me an environment where I felt safe enough to talk. To say what was on my mind, you know, to be able to begin to learn how to communicate, and that was a lot of it for me because I didn't understand the social rules, right? And so improv is it helps you build your framework for learning social rules in a safe environment. And I think that there's a lot of folks who can really benefit from that and team, and I just lost them, honestly.

That's where I started. I started. I mean, people look at me.

Joel 

Right.

Erin

People look at me now, and you're like. You have such authority, blah, blah blah. I'm like, I Literally didn't pretty much talk for the first 11-12—thirteen years of my life, like literally.

Joel 

That's, I mean, that's to talk about one day. That's just amazing that it helped you advance through that period of your life and go forward there, and I think some keywords that you said that I think number one was that. Well, you said it was about, and you know, a lot of it was about anxiety. So feeling safe was such an important part of that, and I think we see the word improv. You think immediately you know.

Not safe, not safe. The alarms go, yeah.

Erin

Oh yeah, and at first, yeah, that doesn't feel safe. You know, you feel, you learn to feel safe.

Joel 

you do, and you know, thinking again back to you know, even my experience and your experiences were teenagers, and we feel so self-conscious. Even when you're as you're talking about in the government, you're gonna feel very self-conscious because it's always you've been following rules and regulations. We it's about perfection, and it's not about taking risks. And that's the beauty of improves when you create a safe environment that this is not about performing because we're not here. We're not here to put on a show; we're here to do some activities in ways that we can, like you said, communicate differently and think differently, but it all starts with actually just really genuinely listening to the other person. When people feel listened to, they start to feel understood. They start to feel safe, and that goes a long way towards, as I said, and that people are all in the same experience. So we're going to be empathetic to the person getting up there. We something we want to succeed, but we definitely don't want them to fail. We want them to enjoy the experience, and they feel the energy of the team supporting them as they're going through this experience it because we're all in the same boat. Well, nobody. Nobody's better than the other. It's not. There's no points, basically.

Erin

Absolutely. Does that lead us to the Second law?

Joel 

Well, the second law is there are a couple of them, but one of them is always making the other person look good. You mentioned that too, and you were, as you were talking about your experience with improv is, taking the focus. It's not the focus on yourself, really. It's you want the other person to look good and so, which leads us to the other law, which is the this. Yes. And which is when people are speaking, you're not going to answer with a but or a no; you're going go, you know, yes And or you're going to agree and move her forward, and then you're not going to make. You're not going to end it with a question like, you know. All right, let's go here. Don't you think? And then that's a leading question. And the person has to go. Yes, they've been manipulated.

Erin

You know what I love the most? Maybe the most about. Yes. And I don't know if It's the Most, but right now it's.

What I love the most about It is that It validates the other person's experience

Joel 

 yes.

Erin

And I think that's something that's the problem, honestly, in a lot of corporate environments.

Joel 

Yeah, because we're exactly, we're waiting for the well. The yes is often an empty yes. When people are saying it and then there's we're just waiting for the but. And uh, we don't feel we don't feel supported, yes, and it doesn't mean you have to agree. That's where people fall Into the trap. Yes. And is saying yes to the person yes and offering some alternatives or offers to keep the conversation going forward before we do. You know, it goes into this narrow scope. We narrow it down.

Erin

Yeah, absolutely. It just validates that your perspective Is valid, right? Yeah. Like your perspective is valid, and you know, let's continue the conversation and from there.

Joel 

You know what I'm thinking?

This is like, yeah, this is a this is let's segue into this into if you're up to it. Erin, let's, let's try. Let's try a little. Yes, and if you're.

Erin

Ohh gosh. OK, sure, go for it. Let's. Yeah. Well.

Joel 

Well, why don't we do this?

What do we do?

So when we do this?

Let's pretend we're both working at positivist.

Erin

Yes

Joel 

we're gonna, and we're on the committee to organize a like a back-to-fall party.

Erin

OK.

Joel 

You're going to start coming up. You're going to start offering some ideas. And just so you know, at the beginning, we'll try the first round. I'm going to say yes, but.

Erin

OK.

Joel 

So I'm not going to do yes, and I'm going to give you yes, but we're on the same committee. We're trying to brainstorm ideas, whether it be a potluck, or we're going bowling, or we're going to go apple picking, you know, whatever that might be. Are you ready to give it a shot?

Erin

Absolutely. Let's go.

Joel 

OK.

People love podcasts. We are the weirdos in the workplace podcast. Be prepared for yes, but the autumn party episode.

Erin

Joel, we got to start talking about the autumn party. Holy Man, it's coming up really soon.

Joel 

Yes, but I am so swamped right now. This is not a good time.

Erin

When would be a good time, Joel?

Joel 

Yeah. Uh, I don't know, you know, reach. Reach out to me again. I don't know.

Erin

Yes, I understand. Would you like me to connect with you next week?

Joel 

Yeah, but next week is when the deadline is for all those government contracts. I can't see how that's going to happen.

Joel 

Alright, we'll pause there. 

Erin

That's good. I was like, yes, would you like me to do it all by myself? Would you like me to reach out to somebody else? 

Joel 

Well, let's let's let's try this again

Erin

Yes

Joel 

Don't change anything. Now I'm going to. I'm going to always answer with yes and alright. Are you ready? And now take two for the office party. Autumn harvest, welcome back.

Erin

All right, Joel. Let's get started planning that Autumn Harvest party.

Joel 

Yes. And I am so excited, Erin, to be working with you on this. This is I think this is a, this is a great idea. This is really, really helpful. And I'm thinking I've got, I've got some ideas. Can I send you two or three ideas? Because I'm just a little bit busy right now, we can set a time for tomorrow.

Erin

Yes, definitely. And I would love to take those ideas. I'll think about them, and then I'll, you know, gather the team so that we can chat about it and figure out how we're going to divide and conquer this.

Joel 

I love that, and let's let's set a date so that we don't get into a meeting that, you know, a meeting about a meeting. Why don't we say Friday? Well, you know you'll do well. You'll have your ideas. All my ideas, and we can, and the team will have some ideas. And then, on Friday morning, we can start to really look at this. I I I've got maybe like 30 minutes from 9:00 to 9:30. So at least we can get started.

Erin

Yep, let me look at my calendar quickly, and it looks like I'm also available. So, let's plug it in.

 Joel 

OK, this is going to be a great autumn harvest party, and I'll leave you one thought. I think I'm thinking of Apple picking as one idea.

Erin

Awesome. And I'm thinking we should bring our partners in, too.

Joel 

That would be so much fun and be outdoors and be active.

Joel 

OK. I look forward to, I'll, I'll drop down some more, but like it looks like on the same page about making something active and bringing family and friends involved.

Erin

Excellent. So I'll see you on Friday.

Joel 

And scene.

Erin

So when are we going? Apple picking them now?

Joel 

Very well, very soon, apparently. So, Erin, let me let me ask you, how did you feel when I was answering with? Yes, but.

Erin

Yes, but it's frustrating. That's the word that I would use. It's definitely it's frustrating, and it's. Yeah, it's something we've all experienced before, right? Whether you've been an employee whether you've been a manager, it doesn't matter. We all. We all experience that for sure, yeah.

Joel 

Yeah. And It seemed like, from my point of view, it felt like you were doing a lot of the heavy lifting like you all the pressure was on you. I don't know how you felt, but what I heard and observed was that it just seemed like. You were. You were trying to come. You were trying to find a a way to get me to open up or to try to come to some agreement or trying to collaborate. And it was just like pushing a rock up the mountain.

Erin

Yeah. And I think that there are alternative ways like if someone's super busy and they're just, it's like literally impossible for starters. Like, it's never impossible. Let's just put that on the table. It's never impossible. But if they feel like it's impossible, I think that there are still other ways where you can demonstrate that, like yes, and attitude and also make sure that you're able to manage your schedule.

Joel 

Yeah. Yeah. And so, Speaking of that, yes. And then, how did you feel when I changed and I developed? I had a yes and mindset as well now.

Erin

You were. I mean, you were taking accountability for things, right? So I think that's a lot of it is. I feel like that, yes. And attitude. It's like it was a partnership, you know. But it's a partnership. You are open. It doesn't mean that there are, you know, challenges that we need to solve or dynamics or whatever, but you're open to the collaboration.

Joel 

Yeah, that's that's that's a really good way of putting it open to the collaboration. And so it's not saying yes, and I'm just saying yes, for the sake of saying yes and now I put myself into a hole and then I'm resenting you for putting me on this committee. I'm saying yes, and then I'm looking at alternatives. I'll give you some ideas. We'll meet later you could look at them. Let's set a time so this doesn't. So this basically doesn't become a burden on me that, like, OK, I'm. I'm waiting for Erin to send me my time. I said I'm taking responsibility, and that's the idea of yes, and which is exactly that. It should feel collaborative in the world of improv, which is called making an offer so that we're moving the scene forward. We're moving the conversation forward versus the other person is doing all the heavy lifting.

Erin

Yeah. And obviously, both parties have a responsibility within that relationship. You know, because you don't want to be the person. Like I can almost picture, you know, Joel from Take One as the guy who is just like, you know, maybe he's just sick of it? Maybe he's just sick of, you know, having to take all the responsibility for everything. And you know, maybe I am the person who says, you know, constantly trying to push things forward, but then everything goes on, Joel.

You know, soin my, from my perspective, maybe that's not entirely Joel's fault. You know, maybe, maybe there's some shared responsibility. And how Joels is acting Right. 

Joel 

Maybe. And maybe I'm that person and I and I I am that yes, but type of person and I go take an improv workshop as part of my corporate training, and I learned something about myself, which is, Ohh, I never realized that I've been putting up Roblox. I never realized that I'm not really listening that I'm. I'm not. I'm not taking ownership, and I'm in a rut, and I guess that's what improv also does is that it takes us forces us to think differently. You know, I was at a manager's conference recently, for example, and that's a warm-up. We just did this very, very simple activity that just seems to throw people off, and it's just called zoom zip and ZAP, zoom, zip and ZAP. Have you ever done this

Ein

 I haven't.

Joel 

But we're not going to do It. It's good when we maybe you have. You have to be sort of a larger group of people. But the whole idea simply is you, you're we're in a circle, and you're literally going zoom to the person to your right, and they go zoom. They pass it around, and it we start off with that, and it's amazing to see the people that It slows down because they're trying to control the pace or they're overthinking, and these were consultants, so this was a really good activity for them to let go receive it? Just pass it on. It’s a simple activity; don't try to control it. Don't try to perfect it. Don't try to analyze it or give it a strategy. And it's about let it is about letting go, and you learn so much about yourself when you realize what it is you've been holding on to.

Erin

Yeah, it definitely kind of reminds me of an exercise that I do while I'm writing, and if you Google it, you can Google it. It's called FBR. I didn't come up with it. It's called fast bad RONG, wrong, and literally when you're writing your first iteration, you don't think about it. Any like you don't think about editing. You don't think about like The final product. It's all it is: an information dump. You're literally just. It's like a stream of consciousness, you know, on to paper. And I think that's kind of similar to what you're talking about here, too.

Joel 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you mentioned earlier about the about the in the government, like perfectionism. And I like this FBR because It is that's that's what we do when we are right; we start censoring ourselves, and then we had all these thoughts, but you're stuck on correcting that first paragraph, and then you forget where your train of thought was, and then it comes out as mishmash.

Erin

Right. Or it's just not as creative or innovative as it could be, and that doesn't mean that there aren't further iterations where you're refining and editing. But the first time you do it, you just throw it out there. You know, you just get it on paper.

Joel 

I love that, and that's that's really what what happens with improv, because you kind of can't you, you don't. There is no take two. You're just we're going through the mistakes in the world of acting. We'll call it a stumble-through. We're just stumbling through this not because we're drunk but because we're just we're just stumbling through it, and we're allowed to make mistakes, and it's like an agreement. That's what creates the safety within the room. It's an agreement that this isn't about perfection. This isn't about being funny. This isn't about trying to entertain. This is about first thought best thought. Make the other person look good and yes and.

Erin

And that doesn't mean that there aren't obviously time and place for, you know, the polished presentation there, of course, is, but it's not that that shouldn't be the way that we function all of the time in a team. You know, we have to be able to know, you know, when are we doing our, you know, trust building brainstorming, you know that that is the activities and then when and who have to be doing the the polished presentation side of it and everything in between, right? Yeah. There's a time and place for all of these things.

Joel 

I really like that thought because the the idea again of that yes and is that we're saying yes to the big ideas before we narrow it down, which is the idea of this polished presentation, which is let's again even your fast thinking when you're writing it's let's get all the big ideas out. Then we could start because what's gonna happen is we're gonna surprise ourselves. Because it's all in our heads. But until we verbalize it and and we surprise ourselves and and and people surprise themselves, and we're like oh, we're coming, we're coming with much more creative ideas and problem-solving than if we just sat there in front of our our computers in our sort of silos.

Erin

Yep, 100%. Absolutely. What else should we talk about? Oh, I don't know. Perhaps our project that we have together.

Joel 

Yeah.

 Should we mention that?

Erin

Well, folks, Joel and I have developed a workshop series called Improving Mission and Improv Innovation specifically for teams who are interested in sparking curiosity and community and sustaining and deepening trust. And Joel is our lead facilitator, and we're really looking forward to working with both the private and public sectors to support the development of teams.

Erin

It's so exciting to know that you're someone's going to come to do a workshop where they're allowing themselves, you know, they're like, oh, we don't have time for this, yeah. You know, a quote I love is That It You Know, and the camera heart goes exactly, but basically, is this the same problem you're dealing with from last year? Are you still talking about it? And that's the paraphrasing of the quote. But that's the idea of what improv can do and Just, you know, a three-hour workshop To come up with that different perspectives to look at different ways of thinking, to build the trust, as you say. To find different ways as to communicate with each other the amount of progression and innovation and ignition that's going to happen from that in just a few hours of allow giving yourselves the gift of actually moving forward on this Is just, it's just a huge.

Erin

No, I think so. I think a lot of teams really need this. You know, like I mentioned, it's been something I personally been thinking about for a long time and that you've been kind of actively doing for a long time, really. And so I'm really excited about this collaboration, and I think it could very well impact a lot of people in a really positive way and a lot of teams, so Learn about yourself. Learn about your teammates, build some trust, get a little bit silly, have some laughs, and build culture. Move forward.

Joel 

Yes, and.

Erin

Yes, and. Yes, and more.

Joel 

Yes. And more. Yeah, yeah. You know, it it it does take me to. I'll give you a specific quote on this one, and this is from Winston Churchill and. I assume it was him who said it, but it was “to improve is to change, to be perfect is to change often.”

Erin

Ah hmm. Awesome, I love that.

Joel 

Yeah, really speaks about the perfectionism you were talking about earlier, but we can't move forward unless we challenge our way of thinking or challenge our way of doing things. And we don't get, we just, we don't just go on cruise control or make assumptions.

Erin

Yeah, totally. We can't learn in a silo. We can't learn about ourselves in a silo. We need to be challenged, and we can't create in a silo, either.

Joel 

Yeah

Erin

yeah.Not not as well

Joel 

no.

Erin

I mean, technically, yes, we can create in silo, but.

Joel 

For sure.

Erin

We can't. We can't create as well in the silo.

Joel 

No. Well, it's There's only so far you can go until until you you're thinking it is challenged, or you're put into a different perspective, or you're, you know, it just like we can get inspired if you leave the office. You get inspired because you went down to the beach. You walked for, went for a walk in the forest. You get inspired because you changed your scenery. You change your way of thinking.

Erin

Absolutely. Yep. We all take inspiration from the external environment for sure.

Joel 

Yeah, yeah.

Erin

Awesome. Thank you for joining me, Sir.

Joel 

My new friend Erin, thank you for having me On the podcast this is great.

Erin

It has been my great pleasure. 

Thanks again to Joel for sharing with us the power of improv. If you're interested in connecting with him, his website is thisfeelsright.ca.

And if you'd like to learn more about our Improv workshop series, you can connect with me at erin@positivis.ca. That's all for today. Remember to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Hello friends. It’s your favourite weirdo, Erin Patchell, and this is Weirdos in the Workplace, where we discuss authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose and their impact in the world of work.

Today, we delve into a topic that isn't just about recognition but about active change. We're discussing truth and reconciliation, particularly as it relates to businesses like ours.

“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” Martin Luther King Jr. once said that. In a world where the winds of change are strong, silence is no longer an option, especially for those of us in positions of power and influence.

Stay tuned.

[Intro Music]

Let's begin by grounding ourselves. 

Every day, we confront the truth that our company operates on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabek  Nation. This acknowledgment demands us to reckon with the profound impact of colonization on Indigenous peoples across this country, also known as Turtle Island. We recognize that our presence here is a result of a history that saw dispossession, erasure, and systemic injustice inflicted upon the original caretakers of this land.

In acknowledging our colonial ancestry, we are acutely aware of the responsibility we bear in addressing the wrongs of the past and striving for a just future. We acknowledge that the path to reconciliation is long and complex, requiring both humility and courage. We are committed to dismantling the colonial frameworks that have perpetuated inequality and we’re committed to amplifying Indigenous voices and perspectives.

Our commitment extends beyond words. We are driven to actively learn from Indigenous communities, acknowledging their sovereign knowledge systems and the deep wisdom they offer. We are resolute in supporting initiatives that uplift Indigenous cultural resurgence, land stewardship, and self-determination.

This acknowledgement is a reminder that our work is entwined with the quest for justice, healing, and transformation. We seek to continuously improve our position so we may stand stronger with Indigenous peoples as allies, recognizing that the pursuit of equity, respect, and collaboration must guide our every action.

This acknowledgement is intended to propel us towards a future where we honor the land, honor the people, and honor the truth of our shared history, as painful as that is sometimes. We will work collectively to rectify the past, to forge new relationships, and to co-create a world that celebrates the richness of Indigenous cultures.

What I just read to you is the position statement from my company, Positivist Group.

And if you've followed us for a while, I hope you know that these are never just words on paper - not to me and not to any of my colleagues or partners. But, every vision starts with a little bit of magic and mysticism; it’s not perfectly real yet - it only becomes real when we make it real. And it only continues to be real, if we continue to nurture it and feed it and grow it. Like anything, really.

I’m working from a still very limited understanding. I still don’t completely know what I don’t know, when it comes to serving and supporting my Indigenous friends and neighbours. And sometimes it’s hard to know who to ask - I never want to put the burden of teaching on a person who may not have the capacity for it. At the bottom of this podcast script, I will be adding numerous links to resources, so if you’re like me and you’re interested in learning more there are some easy access opportunities at the bottom. 

And today I’ll talk about a few things as well even if it’s through my more limited perspective, I have learned a few things that might help you, too, as you’re seeking to support our Indigenous friends..

But first, I want you to imagine a world crafted to benefit only a select few. A narrow persona that is glorified with any deviation from that standard becomes inferior. That’s the colonial mindset. From the languages we speak to the ways we conduct business, whether we like it or not, if you know anything about history you know that our world has been sculpted by it. Recognizing this is the first step.

Despite attempts to deconstruct this narrative, colonial structures and mindsets remain and the more I learn and observe, the truly systemic nature of this becomes more and more obvious. Sometimes the words that come out of my own mouth, from the jokes that I make to the reactions to my kids’ behaviour, when I observe them from a third party perspective, I recognize the deeply buried racism, sexism and ableism that skews my thoughts and actions - and am a woman who has a developmental and physical disability and so coming from me, the sexism and ableism is soemtimes shocking. It feels like I should know better, and for someone who is trying to walk a path of increasing humility, justice and righteousness, it’s always a little bit disappointing when I notice these feelings come up. I wonder how many have I missed? 

Our colonial frameworks are everywhere - from our personal, professional and corporate values, the way we structure our time and energy, the way we teach our children, the way our government is structured and functions… it’s pervasive, and when I look at it, it almost seems like a game of jenga. The trick is to dismantle this without the jenga pieces crashing to the ground. We’ve been carefully removing those inner pieces of the jenga tower, but the structural integrity of the tower is still strong. Is it enough? When will it be enough?

I mean, right now, these questions are irrelevant because there’s still so much work we can do and things we ourselves can control. As business owners and business leaders, you have so much more influence in this conversation than many others do. It’s our duty and responsibility, as far as I’m concerned, to use our privilege to lift people up.

We can take inspiration from many Indigenous stories and philosophies that echo ancient wisdom and lessons from the land. Within these tales lies an unwavering emphasis on unity, an innate respect of nature, and an insightful understanding of the interconnectedness of all life; the complexity of the human condition. It’s a worldview that envisions humanity not as dominators of the earth but as humble co-inhabitants, valuing every strand in the web of existence.

In a modern era dominated by corporate-driven motives and capitalistic pursuits, these Indigenous insights offer not just a critique but a guiding light. They present a vision where success isn't measured solely by profit margins but by the harmony one creates with their surroundings. These narratives remind us that there's more to life than relentless competition and individualistic ambitions, but that both of these things have a place in life as well.

This brings us to the heart of the matter: values. Our values serve as the compass guiding our actions, decisions, and interactions. They're the pillars upon which our purpose stands, shaping the path we tread in the world. We all need to ask: "Why do I do what I do? What drives me forward each day? What kind of legacy do I wish to leave behind?" 

Viktor E. Frankl, a renowned neurologist, psychiatrist, and Holocaust survivor, once said, “Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose.” This sentiment beckons us to lead a purpose-driven life, one that resonates with depth and authenticity. When our actions stem from values aligned with a larger purpose, we not only achieve success but also fulfillment and a s ense of genuine contribution to the world.

We must continually revisit and refine our purpose and strive to create a world where profit and purpose harmoniously coexist.

And while I’m still learning to turn these values into action there are a few ways that I can help personally that I think greatly supports my clients and I hope will help you a little bit  as well. I’m talking about financial stability, equitable procurement, and building inclusive teams.

The first - financial stability. When organizations are financially stable, they can begin to invest more money into their purpose related goals. When working with my clients, financial stability and financial growth is usually the top goal, because without it you have no business in the first place. Once you are profitable, you can lean more heavily into your purpose and begin measuring progress toward your goals, whether connected to the UNs 17 Sustainable Development Goals, the 93 calls to action, or other frameworks, will establish your business as an ally and make real progressive change.

Another big step is equitable procurement. By intentionally hiring Indigenous makers and supporting Indigenous-owned businesses and other diverse suppliers, small and medium sized businesses, we challenge the norms, empowering communities that were once sidelined. This enriches our businesses and our government with diverse perspectives. My company, Positivist Group, advises organizations on the governance, policy and practices around equitable procurement, and provides project-based advice to ensure an RFP or supply arrangement is going to tender in a way that is competitive for all organizations. It’s been my personal experience that small and medium sized businesses are totally capable of competing with larger national and multinational corporations and often have a stronger value for dollar, and far superior customer experience and delivery. Yet often procurement processes are designed - intentionally designed - in such a way that makes it impossible for them to compete. This is something that I personally want to burn down and rebuild.

The third, building inclusive teams. What comes first - diversity or inclusion? If your team isn’t diverse, then it’s certainly not inclusive. But if your team isn’t inclusive, can it ever sustain diversity? This is one of the classic conundrums of our times. In practice, it’s never one or the other, it’s a practice of developing your governance and practices around recruiting, training and developing people, and learning how to value the diverse spectrum of human capacities and personalities. It’s harder than building a team of people who think and act alike or who are content with merely following orders, but your results won’t be nearly as robust or interesting or valuable.

To end, here’s a thought for all the entrepreneurs and leaders tuning in. When you stepped into leadership, you unknowingly took responsibility for every action, every decision, every win, and every failure of your team. It’s not just business. It’s personal. And this includes acknowledging their history, their truths, and their futures.

Thank you for tuning in. Remember to keep exploring those twists and turns of our weird and wonderful world. If you’ve heard anything that has resonated with you today, or if you have something to teach me so I can do better next time, please feel free to send me an email at erin@positivist.ca or PM me on any of the social platforms - you can find me at Erin Patchell.

Until next time, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don’t stay out of trouble.

---

Learning Resources:

4 Seasons of Reconciliation Course for Entrepreneurs (BDC)

Government of Canada Learning Resources 

Lakehead University, list of resources for educators

Assembly of First Nations, list of educational resources

Indigenous Canada - Free Online Course, University of Alberta

Good day friends and welcome back to another episode where we discuss how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose leads to more visionary organizations. I’m your host, Erin Patchell, founder of Positivist Group and your host of Weirdos in the Workplace. Today we’re talking about the idea of having a Personal Board of Directors. If you’ve been listening to the podcast, you might know that I’m a big believer in not doing things on your own, accepting the advice and ideas of others, and understanding the radical truth while envisioning with clarity where we could go from here. Having a personal board of directors is critical for anyone who has really big goals. 

Today we’re answering the question, "who do you need by your side as you scale the corporate ladder or grow your own business?” Stay tuned. 

Anyone who's ever started a business and I think most people who are in leadership roles knows it's never just business—it's personal. Hell, it’s deeply, existentially personal. We’re talking Kierkegaard levels of introspection here. I mean, your business is like your baby; it's an extension of yourself.

Now, I'm not sure I've ever met an entrepreneur who's perfectly mastered the art of balancing head decisions with heart decisions. You're either overly analytical, dissecting every choice like it’s a page from Dostoevsky, or we’re so passionate about our vision and taking care of our people that our hearts eclipse our heads, and we make decisions that can sometimes end up compromising that very vision. 

The reality is that as a business owner or business leader, you are being pulled in a multitude of different directions and this is more true today than ever in a world fully entrenched in a cultural and technological revolution simultaneously. The world, businesses and life have never been more complex.

You know what I mean? That's why having a board of advisors—your own 'Personal Board of Directors'—is absolutely vital.

Let's start by breaking it down. What the heck is a Personal Board of Directors? This is your inner circle, the sage advisors, mentors, and influencers who guide you through the maze of your professional life. This is your ultimate "dream team" for self-development and decision-making, minus the obligations of fiduciary responsibilities.

Remember the wise words of Plato: "Know thyself." But he also should've added, "Know others who know things you don't." Your Personal Board isn't just an echo chamber of you; it's a reflection of different facets of what you need to grow.

Imagine being lost in a forest. Your strategy is like the compass and map that guide you in the direction your business is already headed, your team is the engine that drives you to your goals, but your Personal Board is like having a group of local guides, each with different survival skills, telling you how to find that fruit, how to hack that path, and maybe how to avoid quicksand while you're at it.

Obviously one of the questions that arises is “how do I know who I need on my team?” Well, how well do you know yourself, your triggers, your instincts, your motivations… your fears? Find people who aren’t just perfectly aligned with your vision and philosophy. Find people who share similar high level values, but who think and act a little bit differently from you. Find some diversity, in personal history, culture, neurotype and more. In summary, your Personal Board of Directors is your personal "think tank" that helps you navigate the uncharted waters of your career and personal development.

You might be asking, "How do I find these people?"

In the wise words of Socrates, "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think." Your mentors are here to make you think. They’ve walked the path you're on, stumbled over the rocks you haven’t seen yet, and—most importantly—have gotten back up. They give you that grand overview, the 'stratospheric perspective' if you will, that helps filter out the noise. It’s so easy to get swept up in the details, having people to grab us by the scruff of our necks and drag us out of the tornado and remind us why we’re doing this in the first place, is absolutely essential.

Your personal board of directors will come in all shapes, colours, sizes and more.  And so what you’re really looking for is a person who is willing to challenge you, and you’re willing to accept it. You’re accepting the challenge. They push you forward.  They make you think differently. They help make you think more deeply.

And the best, best, best way to find your own personal board of directors is to become part of someone else’s personal board of directors as well.

Like Oprah Winfrey said, “Surround yourself with people who are going to lift you higher.”

I hope this episode inspires you to take more time to talk and build community with individuals who you may find, inspire and teach you to be more than who you are right now. The only way to find them is to search, cultivate transparency and authenticity, lower your guard, and become curious about the people you meet. When you meet people who challenge you, who spark a fire inside of you and drive you to want to be more and do more, you know you may have a new member of your “personal board.”

That’s all for today, stay weird, stay wonderful and don’t stay out of trouble.

Erin Patchell:

G'day friends. And welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we discuss how authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose leads to more visionary organizations. I'm your host, Erin Pachel, and today I have a very special guest with us. Everyone, meet Laura. Wellman, welcome to the podcast, Laura.

Lara Wellman:

Thanks for having me.

Erin Patchell:

Laura is a certified business coach who believes small business owners make more money, love the work they do, and still have time to enjoy their lives. She is a professional coach, delivers group programs, workshops, and events, is soon to be an author, and helps business owners get the clarity they need to take the right action for them and their businesses. We're really excited to have you.

Lara Wellman:

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Erin Patchell:

Awesome. Stay tuned.

[intro music]

Erin Patchell:

Welcome to the show, Lara. And what are we talking about today?

Lara Wellman:

So I'm really excited to have a conversation about what it means to be authentically yourself, to trust who you are, to be the person that you are without feeling like you need to change things so that you can enjoy your work. Because I think a lot of us spend our times trying to be something else in order to get to that successful part of what it means to be in business. And really what a lot of what needs to happen is just to be more you and to figure out what that is so you can thrive and enjoy it.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah, I totally agree. What's the point of life and work if we can't love what we do and find some joy in the process and the outcome?

Lara Wellman:

Yeah. When we go into business and we decide that's what we want to do, a lot of the time people say to me, it's about finding freedom. It's about being able to do the things we want to do. And then suddenly people instead find themselves all like, I don't know, maybe this is even worse than before. And some of it is just because we don't allow ourselves to figure out how to just be okay with who we are, what's going on, and then use that to move forward. Yeah.

Erin Patchell:

I would consider you to be a fairly well known business coach in our community. It seems that everyone I talk to, they know exactly who you are and what you stand for and the different communities you've created over the years. And you've been around for a little while now. I'm curious, what inspired you to go down this path and become a business coach?

Lara Wellman:

So I've been a business owner for 16 years now. I've had a variety of businesses. My very first business was a clothing store. Then I did social media and marketing consulting. And it was about eight years ago that I decided I wanted to do business coaching specifically. And for me, it started with, as a marketing person, having people not really understand all the basics of what they needed in order to have a good marketing plan, right? So you say in order to have a good marketing plan, there's a certain amount of information that you need about your business in order to create a good plan. And so I would talk to people and be like, you don't have the information. So some people would say, you're going to need to talk to a business coach. You're going to need to go do this business planning. And I was like, I would like to help you figure that out. I really like that part. Yeah. And so that's how it happened. And so I just started doing a little bit, and then I went and did some training. And really for the last almost eight years, business coaching has been the thing that I'm doing first and foremost. And I love it because I'm helping people figure out not just how to get their name out there, but how to see where the possibility exists to make more money without it being this constant hustle struggle. That's such a big thing for me. I'm not a person with a ton of hustle energy, and so I'm like, well, how do we do it without hustle energy? Well, maybe we don't need to hustle. We just need to figure out what works and do more of that.

Erin Patchell:

How do you do that? How do you help people figure out what works?

Lara Wellman:

Tell me your secrets. Yeah. Part of it is figuring out what's not working right when you're having a conversation. One of the things I hear a lot are, I should be doing XYZ. This is what I should be doing. Okay, maybe not, but I hear it a lot. People have a lot of ideas of what they should be doing, and then I hear a lot of so I just need to do it. I just need to do it. Usually when I hear I just need to do it, it means they've been trying to do it for a long time and not doing it right. So it's just over and over again, I'm just going to do that thing that I have never been able to do before and I hate doing and I never do it. Okay, so just doing it means you've decided it's the only way to move forward and there's no other choice. I have to do it. If I want to be successful, I have to do this thing that is 100% not working. I just need to do it.

Erin Patchell:

And there's a big difference between I should do this and I just need to do this, isn't there?

Lara Wellman:

Well, there is, but they start to get locked together, right? I should do it. I need to do it. It grows. The longer you don't do it, the more people start beating themselves up and they're like, why just do this thing? Yeah.

Erin Patchell:

I'm always curious about what is a guilt focused or shame focused should versus a cognitive process. Like, this is a good strategic thing that I should be doing or whatever. You know what I mean? It's like, what am I doing for other people versus doing myself?

Lara Wellman:

Yeah. And I think should is often something like we've just been told has to happen. I want to do it. I do a lot of let's replace should with want to. I want to do that. Right. Not, I should do it. I want to do that. And if you don't want to do it, is there an alternative? There's almost always an alternative to how you can do a thing. And that's what I'm trying to look for. So when I hear people, I can see they're getting stuck. They're doing the same things that aren't working and they're frustrated. That's when we're like, okay, so we're not just going to keep bashing through. My analogy is, like, you're standing in front of a brick wall, and people are like, I need to get through the brick wall, and they're just banging through these bricks like they're bloody and black and blue. And I'm like, I just would like you to back up with me because there's a door 10ft to your left. We just need to stop for long enough from where you think you're so positive, you need to be moving forward. And there's no other option, no matter how hard it is, to see how we can back up and find an alternative. And there often is. But if you're so stuck on, I need to, I need to, I have to, I can't stop, you're not going to see it. So that's what I do a lot of it's finding, right? So I have a lot of years of experience. I've done a lot of training. I have the ability to give people tactical information. But part of it is stop, breathe. What's going on? What would work better?

Erin Patchell:

Are there a lot of common challenges that the business owners you work with tend to have?

Lara Wellman:

There are. I think some of them are just not thinking that they're ready for the next thing. Like there's going to be a magical time when they feel ready for the next big growth moment, right? So I'm not ready to charge more. I'm not ready to take on that program. I'm not ready to offer that kind of program or that level of work. And they all are. They're ready. And a lot of the time, it's just a matter of what would need to happen for you to go for it and having somebody in their corner. So whether they're working with me one on one or I do a lot of group coaching, when you have people who believe in you, it's a lot easier to believe in yourself. And so that's where community is so important to me, because so many business owners are sitting at their desk feeling like they're the only one who hasn't figured this out. Everybody else is so good at this thing, and why can't I just figure it out, right? It's like this whole angsty, like, why am I sucking when nobody else sucks? And then when you get in a room of people who are like, oh, I feel like that too, and they're like, you not you, but you're. So whatever they think of that person, right? And then suddenly you're like, okay, now I'm not the only one who feels that way. And to know that whatever level you are at your business, there's going to be new Impostor Syndrome, there's going to be new things, right? We're not getting to some kind of end zone where suddenly everything is perfect and flowers and rainbows every minute of the day. People have Impostor Syndrome challenges in their seven and eight figure businesses. So when you stop beating yourself up for struggling or not being confident and instead you're like, okay, that's okay. This is part of the process. What do I do now? How do I move forward? It's so much easier than just being like, I suck. I knew it. Yeah.

Erin Patchell:

That's where that authenticity kind of shield comes from, almost, right? It's like the more authentic you can be in your own life, the more you realize, the more authentic the people around you can be too. And then you can break down those masks, those shields.

Lara Wellman:

Yeah, I'm lucky. The people that I am surrounded with are very authentic. I think part of that is the way that I communicate in the world, attracts people who like that, and I receive it in kind. But I think people crave that, right? Like, they're not looking for this perfect veneer. They're not looking for perfection. And like, oh, I can see that. You sound very professional. And I think things are shifting in what people want and how people feel comfortable. And I think it's important to create spaces where people can be safe to be themselves. And that's where the magic starts to happen. The more comfortable you are with yourself and confident because you see that it is well received. The more people are attracted to you, the more your business grows, the more things work versus trying to be something else to have things work.

Erin Patchell:

Do you have any particular I mean, obviously don't mention any names or anything, but do you have any experiences that you've had with clients where that philosophy has just sort of rubbed off and really helped somebody?

Lara Wellman:

I mean, I think so. I really feel like the people who work with me start to just first of all, I hear people say things that we talk about to other people. Like it grows, right? Like the belief that we're just able to be ourselves and have that work and enjoy life and work less. Like, all of these things just kind of grow. And I know I have so many clients who tell me they now have like a little Lara on their shoulder when they're going through things, right? That means that they really have started to believe what I'm saying, right. It's carrying it with them and I think that that carries through into their businesses. Certainly it's one of the ways I think there's like that trickle effect of my work is people pass that on and they have staff and they have clients and all of this is just a matter of like let's stop trying to hustle harder for everything. Let's stop trying to be this list of criteria somebody made up that is what we think is supposed to be success and let's just break the rules. Let's break some of the rules. Some of the rules are not important, some of the rules are just habits. And we just need to say how can we do things differently? I don't care. One of the sort of a trigger statement to me is when anybody wants to do something simply because that's how it's always been done to me. That means it's time to look for something else. There's almost nothing that's always been done one way that shouldn't change now for sure.

Erin Patchell:

Do you have any particular frameworks or models that you like to use in your work with your clients?

Lara Wellman:

No, not really. And I'll tell you, it's because I think every person needs not every single person, but it's always about looking for an individual thing that I think is going to work for somebody. So I talk a lot, just in general about my ADHD diagnosis and being neurodivergent, but also just because of my ADHD diagnosis. I've done a lot of learning about brains. And brains are so different. They're so different and the way people are motivated by things, the way people take action on things. There's no one system that I believe will work. So I have different things. I'm like, oh, let's do the Eisenhower matrix. There's little things that I'll talk about, but ultimately I'm always saying here are a few ways I think you could tackle that. Which one feels like it's going to work for you? Because I know from my clients, I have some where we come up with a big long laundry list of things you're going to do. And by the next time I talk to them, they're all done. Because they're doers, they sit down and they just get stuff done. I personally would love a bit of that in my life, in my body, to be able to just sit down and do all the things simply because I said I would. But I know that for me, I need more hard and real deadlines. I need really to feel like someone else is on the other end, caring that this thing is going to happen, for me to get it done in a timely fashion. So the motivation between me and that other person to get stuff done, the same tactics won't work. And so we're always looking for the thing that's actually going to work. And so I'm constantly shifting things. If you don't think that's going to work, what do we think we can change to make sure it'll work? For the way you think, the way you feel, the way you're motivated. And that means there's never the one way, there's never the one tool. I'm always tweaking and working with the person I'm talking to.

Erin Patchell:

Awesome. I love that. I'm the same. It's like design thinking. It's like you use all of the tools, right, to help identify issues and solve problems. And I love that. So you have a book coming up soon. I know that you're busy editing your book and when's the expected release date for that?

Lara Wellman:

So I'm hoping by October it'll be out. We're very close to being able to launch and yes, it's very exciting.

Erin Patchell:

That's amazing. And it's called you're Not Lazy, you're Not Lazy, you're Not Lazy by Lara. Wellman, everybody.

Lara Wellman:

Yeah. And it's all about the fact that I thought I was a lazy person for a long time because I wasn't into the hustle culture and how a lot of other people have those same kinds of things where they're really hard on themselves. And with some mindset shifts, you can start to just be a bit more okay with who you are so that you can ease into enjoying life a bit more.

Erin Patchell:

I know we don't like to generalize, but do you feel like more women fall into that category than men?

Lara Wellman:

Yeah, I think so. I think we've been socialized to think so and to be harder on ourselves and to be a little less confident about it. So we are we're really hard on ourselves and that's one of the reasons we think we don't measure up to what the expectations are of us. So therefore we must be lazy or therefore we're not as good as other people. And then the weight of feeling bad. For me, shame is the word I talk about a lot. Some people I know there's guilt, there's other things, but for me, shame was my biggest one, where I felt like I wasn't measuring up. And that emotional heaviness of feeling that way is the most exhausting thing of all. And when you can start to let some of that go without just letting go of some of the shame of not being good enough, or like I said, other people have different words for it, just that shift alone starts to make things feel a bit easier. Yeah.

Erin Patchell:

Just as you were talking and this is probably obvious to a lot of people, but I was just thinking about ADHD and how women tend to be diagnosed later than men a lot of the time. Because we're so good at masking the instincts and behaviors that would normally be expressed because of that shame, I think in a lot of ways, because we're constantly we're putting so much energy into striving for normalcy or even just like a perception of normalcy from other people. And I don't think I processed it that way before. So thanks for the insight.

Lara Wellman:

You're welcome.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. Do you think the Laziness let's not call it Laziness, but it's like see, now I'm changing. See, as you've said, that I'm changing my entire thinking around Laziness. I never really felt like I was lazy, but I still experienced definitely the other side of it, which is the shame and trying to motivate myself to overcome. But I don't think I ever named it Laziness, but that's probably what I was feeling. So there's like a motivational it's interesting because there is a motivational factor in that guilt and shame and I wonder I'm an extrovert. It's so hard for me to be internally motivated when you were just saying that you needed external motivation to get things done. That resonated so hard with me, and.

Lara Wellman:

Yet I consider myself an introvert. So it's not right. It's not just that. It's just that for me, I find and part of it can be the ADHD, but I think it's so many other people. There's just so many things going on, there's so many distractions. Without a deadline, I don't feel like anything's urgent yet. And so that all plays into why real deadlines make a difference. And I think with Laziness there's the flip side and there's a book called Laziness Does Not Exist, which is also another book that I recommend. But that book is more about the fear of being seen as lazy versus owning that they're lazy. Right? Like, it's the idea that you're so afraid that you're going to think you're lazy, other people are going to think you're lazy, that you're never going to be lazy. And so that brings up that need to always hustle. And that's why I'm like, resting isn't lazy. You're not being lazy. Lazy has a really negative connotation, but people use it even in jest. But they're still trying to justify things that they feel like maybe they shouldn't have taken that whole weekend off. I was just taking a lazy weekend versus I just spent the weekend resting. We really have associated the need to go go in order to have value in our society. And when we can start to detach ourselves from that and just let ourselves rest, like we're healthier, happier people.

Erin Patchell:

If someone came to you and said, I feel like I have to hustle or I have this internalized perception of myself as lazy, how would you help them flip the script for themselves?

Lara Wellman:

I'm looking for where the struggle is actually happening. Where are you getting stuck? Are you wishing that you could rest more but think that you don't deserve it? Are you wishing you could rest more, but not until you've achieved some goal? And that goal, is it actually meaningful for you? Or is it just one you think you're supposed to have? There's so many different factors that play into where people get into this sort of spinning hustle mentality. And the other question is, are you about to burn out? How tired are you? Are you trying to do all of this just for the sake of doing it when you're not healthy or happy anymore? And is that what you want? Is that actually what you want? Or are you on this path and you haven't stopped to ask yourself if you even know where you're going or why anymore?

Erin Patchell:

So you have a thriving online community where you support business owners, and you have numerous different initiatives, obviously helping business owners and your own business. If this conversation has resonated with people, and I expect it will, how can they get a hold of you and become part of this?

Lara Wellman:

Yeah, so if they're interested in the book and the idea of talking about not being lazy, you're Notlazy CA will take you to a little bit more information about the book. And I have a Facebook community where people are encouraging each other to just be okay with resting. If you're a business owner and you're looking for a little bit more information about how to find this thing that works for you. Thebiz studio is the website for my business, and I'm happy to have conversations with people who are looking to try to find the thing that's going to work for them. That's amazing.

Erin Patchell:

Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today, Laura.

Lara Wellman:

Thank you for having me.

Erin Patchell:

Laura. Would you like to leave our listeners with any kind of inspirational message?

Lara Wellman:

I want to remind people that they can just ask themselves, what if it all works out? What if there isn't something that needs to change inherently or some big thing that needs to happen for things to get better? But you can just be more you and enjoy life, and that's all there is to it?

Erin Patchell:

Awesome. Thanks so much again.

Lara Wellman:

Thank you.

Erin Patchell:

That's all for today. I hope you enjoyed the 25th episode of Weirdos in the Workplace with our guest, the brilliant Lara Wellman. Remember the Ralph Waldo Emerson quote, to be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. So stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Greetings, beautiful humans! I’m your host Erin Patchell, and this is Weirdos in the Workplace where we discuss how transparency, authenticity, passion and purpose create more visionary organizations. And welcome to today's episode on creating high performing teams. Whether your team is virtual, flexible or totally on site, the world of work is more chaotic than ever. One thing that can give you some stability is building a strong and reliable team that gets shit done.

If you’re a business owner or leader, it’s probably something you think about a lot. So, let’s talk about it today. Stay tuned.

[music]

Once upon a time, in a quaint little village, there existed a small farm known as Harmony Acres. The farm had a varied assortment of animals, each unique in their own right: a wise old owl named Olivia, a strong bull named Brutus, a fast rabbit named Remy, and a resourceful beaver named Benny. Harmony Acres was in a dire situation, as their land had become barren and crops no longer flourished. The village council had given them one season to turn things around or else the farm would be shut down.

One evening, Olivia called a meeting. "Friends, we've got to solve the problem of our barren land and dying crops. The survival of Harmony Acres depends on it."

Brutus, the bull, was the first to speak. "Let's plow the entire field with all our strength! Rip it apart and start afresh!"

Remy, the rabbit, was skeptical. "That sounds like a lot of work and it could make things worse. Maybe we can find seeds that grow faster, so we can harvest sooner."

Benny, the beaver, shook his head. "Neither will work if we don't understand why the soil is barren in the first place. We need to test the water and soil to find out what’s wrong."

Olivia, synthesizing everyone's input, said, "All excellent ideas, but we have to act in a coordinated manner."

First, they took Benny's suggestion. They tested the soil and water, discovering that the water source was polluted. Benny built a filtration system to clean the water. The owl, being wise and resourceful, helped by finding materials that would be needed for the filter.

Next, they took Brutus' idea and plowed the field but with care and precision, avoiding any unnecessary damage. Brutus used his strength, guided by the wisdom of Olivia, who oversaw the process, ensuring that it was carried out with precision.

Finally, they planted seeds that Remy had found—seeds that were not only quick to grow but also compatible with their soil type. Remy used his speed to disperse the seeds evenly across the field.

As they worked through each stage, conflicts and disagreements inevitably arose. Brutus was impatient and wanted to see results quickly, while Benny insisted on double-checking everything. Remy was anxious and always on the move, while Olivia was slow and methodical.

But as they ran into challenges—broken equipment, a shortage of materials, disagreements on methods—they started seeing these not as obstacles but as opportunities to learn from each other's unique strengths and perspectives. Olivia summarized their learnings and helped them remember the bigger picture. Benny was resourceful in fixing broken equipment. Brutus provided the strength to move heavy materials. And Remy kept everyone's spirits up, always hopeful and optimistic.

The season passed, and the day of judgment arrived. The village council visited Harmony Acres, only to find lush, blooming crops and a rejuvenated farm.

"It's a miracle," declared the village chief. "How did you all accomplish this?"

Olivia, standing tall, looked at her diverse team of friends and said, "The strength of the team is each individual member. The strength of each member is the team."

From that day on, the animals of Harmony Acres never looked at challenges the same way. They saw them as stepping stones on the path to success, as integral parts of their journey in mastering the art of collaboration. And Harmony Acres, nourished by the collective skills and spirit of its diverse residents, flourished like never before.

And so, they all lived productively ever after.

Friedrich Nietzsche in his Twilight of the Idols said, "What does not kill me makes me stronger." 

It’s while donning this mental armour that I think about complementary teams. 

Nietzsche’s words, “What doesn’t kill me makes me stronger” describes the transformative power of obstacles. There are few opportunities better to learn than building a truly diverse team of individuals created from different cultural contexts, personalities, energy levels, skills and capacities. 

Forming a team of individuals who have exactly the same goals, priorities, philosophies, values and balance of skills is nearly a fantasy. People are rarely that unified and it takes time for the rough edges to smooth out and synergy to take place. A team always needs to have some creative conflict to reach their own personal potential and to innovate together. If a team has settled into a friction-free rhythm, it might be time to shake things up a little bit.

The psychology behind personal growth when faced with challenges is not just a motivational poster.  When confronted with obstacles, we can respond in various ways, and not all of them are constructive.  Viewing something as a threat versus a challenge, changes everything. The words you tell yourself are important. The relatively simple act of reframing our language can move something from an insurmountable issue to one that can be overcome, learned from, or even leveraged for advantage.

The initial perception of an obstacle, whether as a threat or a challenge, sets the tone for how we engage with it—both mentally and behaviorally. If we perceive an obstacle as a threat, our bodies go into a fight-or-flight mode. Our stress hormones spike, our thinking narrows, and we’re more likely to make impulsive decisions, all of which can be counterproductive in the modern landscape of complex problems.

On the other hand, viewing an obstacle as a challenge shifts the narrative. When we interpret something as a challenge, it elicits a different physiological and psychological response. We’re more focused, more engaged, and more open to creative problem-solving. We approach it with the intention of mastering it, of learning from it, and possibly even benefiting from it. The stress we feel becomes a positive stress known as “eustress”, which is well researched as motivating and performance-enhancing.

The language we use is a powerful tool in this reframing process. Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is considered a pseudoscience, but if you consider the impact of Tony Robbins on the world - or maybe this is something you’ve experienced yourself personally - words absolutely have power and the way we think affects our physiology and our behaviour.  The words you choose to describe your experience will affect how you react to it. If I can’t see an immediate solution and I say “this is impossible”, I would have a very different outcome than if I took a deep breath and said “this is hard but we’ll figure it out.”

It’s with the latter mindset that we want to enter the team space. “This is hard, but we’ll figure it out.”

What if we start by reframing our idea of what a team can be? What if a team is not just a functional unit, but a dynamic ecosystem of diverse skills, backgrounds, and personalities? What if the challenges that naturally arise within teams are not threats to productivity, but opportunities for individual and collective growth?

When we shift our perspective in this manner, we start seeing the "obstacles" in team dynamics—conflicts, differences in working styles, cultural contexts, gaps in skill sets—not as problems to be smoothed over as quickly as possible, but as vital touchpoints for learning, adaptation, and innovation. We create an environment where challenges are welcomed, not feared; a culture that understands that the road to high performance is paved with many small, but enriching, challenges.

This isn’t science fiction. I’ve been lucky to be a part of complementary teams that had a collective growth mindset, comradery and grit, and boy were we able to move mountains. I’ve experienced first hand how the group can be greater than the sum of its parts.

I do think building a team is more art than science. It’s highly intuitive and a process of personal development and team development. The real essence of a team lies in synergy, in the alchemy that occurs when diverse skill sets and personalities come together with a group mission that is more important than individual glory.

People ask me if I use a particular model, and I don’t. Personally, I believe that most team development models have value. I prescribe to a design thinking philosophy, and this is often characterized by the desire to gather useful tools. Design thinking uses a framework of five steps - empathize, define, ideate, prototype and test - and the more tools you have to support each of these areas, the more you can tailor every project for the best possible outcome.

Empathy: Design thinking starts with understanding the user, and in the context of team-building, the "users" are your team members. Learning what drives them, what their challenges are, and how they prefer to work can create a team that is more sensitive to each other’s needs and strengths so they can perform at their highest level..

Defining the Problem: Just as in design thinking where you define the problem you're solving for, you can define the team's objectives clearly. What is the purpose of the team? What are we trying to achieve? This sets a direction that everyone can align with, understand and contextualize..

Ideation: In design thinking, you generate as many ideas as possible in the ideation stage. Similarly, for team building, encouraging open brainstorming can not only solve problems but also make everyone feel invested in the team’s mission and objectives.

Prototyping: Before implementing a full-scale solution, design thinking advocates for prototyping to test assumptions. In a team, this could mean testing out different team structures, communication tools, or workflow processes on a small scale before rolling them out to the entire team.

Feedback Loops: Design thinking is iterative, relying heavily on user feedback to refine the design. Teams can adopt this approach by regularly soliciting feedback about team dynamics, workloads, and processes to make incremental improvements.

Design thinking inherently values multidisciplinary teams and collective decision-making. These principles can be translated to team-building by valuing each member’s unique skills and perspectives, aiming for a culture of collaboration rather than hierarchy.

In design thinking, success metrics are often based on user satisfaction. Similarly, team performance metrics could be centered around team satisfaction, fulfillment, and well-being, not just output.

Flexibility and Adaptability: One of the main tenets of design thinking is the willingness to pivot when something isn't working. That can be a valuable lesson for teams who must often adapt quickly to new information or circumstances.

To build your contextual understanding of team development, there are some useful models - Tuckman’s phases of forming, storming, norming, performing and adjourning, help us understand that conflict and dissonance are normal stages you’ll go through while assembling a team. 

There are no perfect models or frameworks because life is more messy and beautiful than that. But each of them helps us understand something in order to give us some clarity and sense of normalcy within that messiness. There are so many models - the Katzenbach and Smith Model, the LaFasto and Larson Model, the T7 Model of Team Effectiveness, the Hackman Model, the Lencioni Model.

These additional models offer different lenses through which to examine team psychology, helping us to understand the many facets of team dynamics, roles, and effectiveness.

Albert Einstein once said, "We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality." He also said, ““The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.” These quotes describe well the importance of looking beyond technical skills when building a team. While intelligence alone can solve complex problems, it is that harmony of personality styles that help us decide what we should do and why we should do it - together. And at least for while longer yet, I think, this is something that machines can’t do. Only humans are capable of the empathy and grit needed to navigate complex team dynamics.

The american entrepreneur and politician Malcolm Forbes, whose father founded Forbes Magazine, put it perfectly: "Diversity: the art of thinking independently together." Indeed, diversity isn't just about ethnic backgrounds, genders, or ages; it also applies to the skill sets within your team. In the ever-changing landscape of the business world, it's critical to have a variety of skill sets that can adapt and respond to various challenges. This doesn't mean that everyone on your team needs to be a polymath, but rather that the collective skills of the team should form a complete, well-rounded unit.

Have you heard of the "T-shaped" skill model? In this model, the vertical bar of the 'T' represents the depth of skills and expertise in a single field, while the horizontal bar represents the breadth of soft skills and the ability to collaborate across disciplines. A T-shaped individual is both a specialist and a generalist. They have a deep understanding of a particular area but also have the skills necessary to collaborate with experts from other fields.

When assembling a team, think of creating a "T-shaped skills matrix" where you plot the team's skills in both dimensions—depth and breadth. This will enable you to visualize gaps and identify what types of new team members you might need to seek.

There are so many do’s and don’t’s when it comes to leading, managing and developing a high performing team but I’ll boil them down:

Do - treat them as human adults, capable of independent thought and decision-making.

Don't - micromanage or infantilize them, undermining their autonomy and confidence.

Do - set clear expectations and achievable goals to guide your team's efforts.

Don't - set ambiguous, vague, or unrealistic targets that leave them feeling lost or demotivated.

Do - communicate openly, honestly, and consistently to keep everyone on the same page.

Don't - withhold crucial information or give mixed messages that lead to confusion and mistrust. 

Do - recognize and celebrate individual and team achievements to boost morale and motivation.

Don't - focus solely on what went wrong, without acknowledging what went right.

Do - foster a culture of mutual respect, where every voice is heard and valued.

Don't - tolerate bullying, harassment, or discrimination of any kind within your team.

 Do - invest in your team's development through training, mentorship, and opportunities for growth.

Don't - neglect their professional needs, leading to stagnation and disengagement.

Do - be flexible and adaptable in your leadership style to meet the needs of your diverse team.

Don't - be rigid or inflexible, unable to adjust your approach to changing circumstances or individual needs.

Do - encourage collaboration and open dialogue, allowing for a free exchange of ideas.

Don't - stifle creativity or shut down conversations that could lead to innovative solutions.

Do - lead by example, embodying the values and work ethic you wish to see in your team.

Don't - say one thing and do another, as inconsistency will erode your credibility.

Do - create opportunities for team bonding and building social capital.

Don't - isolate team members or create an environment where cliques and factions can thrive.

In the words of Mike Rutherford from the band Genesis, "Being in a band is always a compromise. Provided that the balance is good, what you lose in compromise, you gain by collaboration."

I hope this episode has inspired you to get the band together and give this type of teaming a try. Especially if you’re interested in creating something from nothing, creating a complementary team might be your best shot.

That’s all for today. Until next week, stay weird, stay wonderful and remember, don’t stay out of trouble.

------------

“Going Deeper” book recommendations:

"Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us" by Daniel H. Pink - This book explores what truly motivates us, including in the workplace.

"Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts." by Brené Brown - This book offers leadership wisdom that applies to all kinds of teams.

 "Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap...And Others Don’t" by Jim Collins - Offers an examination of what it takes to make a great company, often focusing on team composition and leadership.

"Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman - Understanding how we think can make us better team members and leaders.

"The Five Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni - A look at what commonly goes wrong in teams and how to avoid it.

"The Art of Possibility" by Rosamund Stone Zander and Benjamin Zander - Focuses on the transformative power of perspective, which you touch on in your podcast.

"Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking" by Susan Cain - For teams to work well, we need to understand and value the introverts among us.

"Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World" by General Stanley McChrystal - Explores how a military unit transformed its structure and culture to adapt to a new era.

"The Tao of Pooh" by Benjamin Hoff - This book uses the characters from Winnie the Pooh to explain the principles of Taoism. It's a gentle way to explore the idea of 'going with the flow' and can be especially useful for leaders needing to manage complex team dynamics.

Erin Patchell [00:00:00]:

Welcome, beautiful humans, to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, the show where we are exploring the extraordinary potential of ordinary organizations. I'm your host, Erin Pachel, and today we are chatting with our friend Maxine Budou, an exceptional leadership development coach. She has a private practice called exceptional leader, literally. And also Maxine is an award winning risk manager and compliance professional with over 21 years of corporate professional experience. Welcome to the show, Maxine.

Maxine Budhu [00:00:31]:

Thank you. It's lovely to be here, Erin.

Erin Patchell [00:00:34]:

And what are we talking about today?

Maxine Budhu [00:00:36]:

Today we are talking about empathetic leadership and moving the needle from drab to exceptional.

Erin Patchell [00:00:45]:

Amazing. Stay tuned.

Erin Patchell [00:01:06]:

So, Maxine, my first question for you. As a risk management and compliance professional, over your career, you've developed this real passion about empathy in the workplace, and sometimes we don't always correlate risk management and compliance with empathy. I'm really curious, what has led you to become so passionate about this topic?

Maxine Budhu [00:01:31]:

To understand and take a step back that all corporations are being led by human beings. And I would say that my mind, my eyes, my heart was veiled before life happened when I was 25 years old, about 16 years ago, I got married, I had my first child. A lot of life, right? And so there's a lot of joy and happiness around that, but it's definitely a lot of change for someone who's the youngest child of her family. Siblings, three siblings, the youngest of three children, the only girl who was constantly doted on. I didn't understand what life was about until I got married and had children of my own. And it was when I had my first born, I went out on maternity leave, but I hadn't been with my organization long enough to get, say, multiple months of maternity leave. I believe I only got twelve weeks. And so coming back, returning to work, was very difficult for me. I actually suffered from postpartum depression and not someone to take a lot of medication. I tried to manage it on my own and with spiritual support. I went to church every week, but that didn't even help me. It got to a point where I wasn't going to church. It got to a point where my routine, as I knew it, had shifted. You're a new mom. And my husband was a new dad and didn't really appreciate what it meant to give birth and have postpartum depression. He didn't know about that being a real thing, although the doctors did prep us for that, and we were thinking, we'll be fine. You're young, you're in good shape, I'm here for you. But it wasn't fine for a very long time. I would want to say, like, maybe for a good 18 months after my child was born. And just imagine I had to go into a mental state where I was just trying to get through the week. And it was like as if I was not even seeing or being in myself. When I was going to work, I would just go to work, come home, get through the week Friday, take a shower and not leave my room until Monday morning. And not to even shower was like, Monday morning, take a shower. It was like a routine, it was like a robot, no emotion. My parents stayed with us for some time because of that, to take care of our son, and it was tough. And when I started to come out of it, I was working in the audit field with people who were adults who had multiple children living their lives. And I started to take a look and I'm like, well, you know, what if I'm getting up and coming into work and I have all this going on outside of work, how many other people are dealing with things outside of work? It never occurred to me until I had a life of my own, not being Miss 20 something year old, just living for myself. I was living for other people now.

Erin Patchell [00:04:45]:

Right.

Maxine Budhu [00:04:46]:

I'm like, there are other grown adults here who are doing the same thing. And then the veil was unraveled and I started to see people for who they really were. And compassion grew up in me, and that's where the empathy, the thought of empathy started because it's so important. Everyone's bringing their baggage to work, but they still have to show up because they have to show up, right?

Erin Patchell [00:05:11]:

Absolutely. I think we try to compartmentalize these things, but we really can't because it ends up spilling out of us in some way or another. Do you think that being able to get up and have that shower on Monday morning, did that help support your process in any way, support you to move forward or how did that work for you?

Maxine Budhu [00:05:36]:

At sometimes, yes. I think that it kept me from going deeper into a depression, but at times it was very hard because the expectations at work were increasing. My manager at the time was not great, and so it was like ebbs and flows where at times I would have a good week and then another time, there was no understanding for why I was late, there was no understanding for why I needed to leave early so much. So I had to change. I organized a switch in managers and I was able to work on a different team, but I didn't even want to have to do that because of the shame that was associated with, oh, what's going on there? Why is Maxine working for him instead of him? I stress him instead of him because at that time, not a lot of women in leadership, in internal audit and all of that. And that was back in 2009, 2010. It's changed a little bit for the better now, but all of that, like just having to speak to a man and not having to have him understand, oh, I need to leave early because I got to breastfeed and I just don't want to breastfeed here, I don't want to pump here, I want to go home. I've had enough. Sometimes I had to keep my mouth closed and just suck it up. But I say all that to say that working kept around people perhaps kind of saved me in a way because it kept me from going into a deeper depression. It was a tough time, but I just wish that I would have had more time to be at home. Yeah, probably would have been better.

Erin Patchell [00:07:22]:

I have this kind of… maybe it's an idealistic way of thinking… but I have this sort of vision of organizations. I think that organizations have the potential to become spaces of healing for people like you and me. In the past, I've had similar situations in my past that have been really traumatic. And then I think that having the stability and the routine almost of having to get up out of bed and go to work and something that's like motivating myself outside of myself because I couldn't do that on my own, it helped. But it can be better, it can be done well, it can be done even more well. And so I'm curious what you think about that and how empathy plays a role in that as well.

Maxine Budhu [00:08:13]:

It got better. After I had my second child, I was with the same organization under a different completely. I went into it auditing, joined a completely different team. And you talk about them being a space of healing. That's what it was because they actually approached me about my breastfeeding plan or oh, do you know there's this room now available? There was an initiation and that is why empathy is so meaningful and it's so basic. We all have the capacity for this, being empathetic and compassionate towards each other. It's just that external things that happen to us through our lives harden our hearts and disable us from even wanting to go that route. But they did it. My management team at that time, they approached me and even that kind of softened me up to say, oh wow, okay, they're on my team, they're going to work for me. Back then, if anyone is listening from the audit field, they know you have to count your hours. You actually have to keep track of the amount of time you're spending on each audit that you're assigned to. And they allotted time for me to take time away from my audit and go and pump for my child and all of that. Just that alone helped me and it sustained me and I did not have such a hard time integrating myself back into the workplace that I did the first time.

Erin Patchell [00:09:38]:

I know that you focus on different elements, so you are a leadership development coach. You work with individuals and teams to support different kinds of emotional and empathy transformations and help this evolution. The different ways that you mentioned that you do this, sometimes it's through teaching and coaching about self awareness, blind spots, and triggers. So how do you integrate this? What's your philosophy around the actual development process of people?

Maxine Budhu [00:10:11]:

It's the recognition, and I primarily begin with recognizing that trauma happens in the workplace. But how we deal with that trauma and how aware we are of ourselves helps us to get through it and helps us to thrive beyond it and actually appear. Provide not appear, but provide the reputation that supports us in promoting ourselves and moving forward and elevating ourselves within the organization. So being aware of yourself is primary to being a strong leader, and that support is supported by the foundation of empathy. So what I do, what I try to focus on, is I try to focus on approaching your leadership development style by looking at yourself first and understanding who you are, identifying things that trigger your behaviors, both negative and positive, and really exploiting your blind spots. And sometimes we don't take that time to do that introspective work to understand who we are. What are our blind spots? What's triggering our behavior? Why are we even acting out in this manner? What is it in the workplace that enforces this manner and this behavior? Because once we get past that, you can seriously thrive as a human being. I know I've done it for myself. I literally, through some really meaningful hard work for myself and recognizing who I am and what I enjoy and what triggers my anger, I was able to revamp my reputation. Not that it was in the toilet in the first place, disclaimer it was good. But I was able to elevate myself within the same organization, revamp my reputation in the organization, and thrive and be promoted.

Erin Patchell [00:12:02]:

I sometimes think that the walls that we build around ourselves in order to protect us from harm, actually, it's creating more harm, not just for ourselves, but for the people around us as well. What do you think about that?

Maxine Budhu [00:12:17]:

Yeah, absolutely, Erin, and you don't even realize you're doing it. And it can cause roadblocks for you in your career. It can cause people to not want to be around you as often as you would want them to. It can cause you to miss opportunities for leadership or growth in the organization. It is so imperative to just be aware of your thoughts and the types of things that you're thinking about throughout the workday, what you're saying about others around you. Those are all little building blocks that build up, like those blind spots that cause you not to soar in an organization, sometimes you're looking around and saying, well, they're being discriminatory towards me. And I'm not doubting that that happens in a workplace, but at the same time, I think it behooves us all to just look at ourselves, to see what we can do better to knock down those blind spots and triggers that are enabling them to be discriminatory towards you, if that makes any sense. You have to take some responsibility for how you show up. That's the type of leadership development, and that's where I'm coming from. That's where my teaching is based on. We're going to focus on you because you can control you. You can't control them and just believe that and know for a fact that even if they intend to be discriminatory towards you, it won't even have an impact on your growth or your promotion because of who you are as a person.

Erin Patchell [00:13:51]:

Yeah, I'm totally all for radical accountability, just like the idea that it is. Whatever the situation, I have some control over it, whether I think I do or not. And I'm going to take accountability for the parts that I do have control over. And I think we definitely have way more control over things than we think we do. And we're not powerless at all.

Maxine Budhu [00:14:15]:

Amen.

Erin Patchell [00:14:16]:

Yeah.

Maxine Budhu [00:14:17]:

Amen.

Erin Patchell [00:14:19]:

Yeah. I'm curious, do you work with mostly aspiring executives? Executives, I believe. Is that correct?

Maxine Budhu [00:14:28]:

Well, I would like to say that not so much executives, but those who are new to corporate or have spent at least four to five years in corporate and really are looking for just wanting to revamp their career, wanting to understand more of what's been happening. Perhaps they've experienced some workplace traumas and they want to grow past these traumas and they want to reevaluate themselves and become better so they could show up better and be promoted in their workplace. Those are the individuals I tend to work with.

Erin Patchell [00:15:04]:

So for your clients, how does your focus on empathy help them make smarter decisions, either personal decisions or decisions in the workplace?

Maxine Budhu [00:15:17]:

Because they're coming from a place of mindfulness and understanding who they are first, having that empathy for themselves. They're making space for them to have empathy on others towards others. Right. And so it's in everything that they do. I teach about how to reach out to someone via email. What do you consider when you're scheduling time to meet with someone? If someone's calendar looks completely booked and they have one little half hour available, you do not book that time. You reach out to them first and ask them. These are the little subtle things that cause you to stand out, that keep you memorable in people's minds when you're doing a presentation. I mean, even the most profound leaders consider their audience first. That's an act of empathy that current leaders are trying to denounce because we don't have time for that. But you're doing it. You're considering your audience first. And so I try to bring that to the forefront in how they make their decisions, how they communicate with others, the type of emails they send. Communication is so important, and so I just try to hone in that it influences everything that you do every decision that you make, you must consider your stakeholders and how the consequences that they would have to embrace as a result of your decision. Think of that first. And even if the consequences are bad, I inform them that if you express that you understand the consequences and the impact that your decisions make, that alone gets people on board. The acknowledgment of the impact of your decisions with your stakeholders, that alone people appreciate that being recognized. And so that's how I communicate to my clients that empathy, having empathy for others as you make your decisions as leaders is very important.

Erin Patchell [00:17:16]:

Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. I love that you're not just talking about empathy as like a philosophical concept, but actually the practice of empathy, like the actual actions of empathy in the workplace or within a relationship. That's something that's a little different, I think.

Maxine Budhu [00:17:38]:

Yeah. Because I feel like we get so caught up in the work and the goals and the vision that we forget that you're working with people, you're serving people. I think you've said it best in a recent post on LinkedIn. You said, let's start integrating our work in life. It's not about balance, but you're really integrating your work into your life and your life into your work. And I hear a lot of companies say, show up as your authentic self. Well, let's walk the talk, right? And let's put stuff into practice, not just talk about it.

Erin Patchell [00:18:14]:

Heck yes. It's got to come from the top. We have to demonstrate leadership, empathetic leadership principles in the workplace and practices in the workplace and lead by example. Absolutely. Yeah. So leaders out there, are you walking the talk? Ask yourself that question.

Maxine Budhu [00:18:36]:

There is room for you to walk the talk. It's in your everyday. I mean, we're hardwired to be kind and to feel how our kindness impacts each other and we enjoy that at our very core, there is science to prove that we are happy when we make other people happy. And no, you're not trying to design this utopia of a place in your work, but at the same time, it's just about consideration. Not everything is going you're not going to be able to please your team all the time, but if they know that you're coming from a place of consideration and empathy, they'll understand.

Erin Patchell [00:19:17]:

And maybe some real talk, like if you don't feel like you have the energy to go out of your way for somebody else, you might be just doing a little bit too much and maybe think about prioritizing, right? A little bit, maybe invoke some self.

Maxine Budhu [00:19:34]:

Empathy and settle down. We talk about the difference between management and leadership and balancing the two. You have to know how to balance the two because sometimes when you're in a leadership position and you get too much in the weeds of management and execution work, you can burn yourself out because then you have to turn back and strategize and be visionary and have the energy to do that. And you don't have any more energy because you've been in the weeds with the managers doing the work. So you have to be able to balance the two. And I support my clients in that type of work. I just remember being new to corporate and always looking around thinking, who can I talk to about this? I just had a weird exchange with one of my lead auditors and he said something that really made me feel bad. Who can I talk to about this? Who can I talk to and ask, well, is this okay to say? Is this okay to approach another manager on? Can I raise this at my next team meeting? I had no one really. I didn't have a mentor. And I just find meaning and so much joy in work, in coming alongside and mentoring in a mentoring capacity. My clients, I think it's my life work to do that, to just be that person that I was looking for when I was in my early twenty s and I was new in corporate America. It was tough.

Erin Patchell [00:21:04]:

One more question and then almost done, I promise. Is empathy optional?

Maxine Budhu [00:21:14]:

No, it is no longer an option. Because while people and organizations are not speaking about empathy per se, all the time, they are speaking about emotional intelligence. And just take a look at the past five years and what we've had to experience, whether it was in person or on the television through newscasts. There is no room to be unempathetic in the workplace because we are coming to work with a lot, with the consideration of a lot, with looking at what's going on in the US. And huh, that's all racial based. I wonder if Mark, who sits right a cubicle over from me, feels the same start. Things that we never had to consider before, we have to consider now about the people, the very people we're rubbing shoulders with. Seeing schools being shot up in and seeing children who look like your children suffer and have to run out in a drill because there's a gunman loose in their school. There's a lot of stuff to consider right now in the world. And the emotional intelligence that you need to support your team is paramount to getting them to move forward. I mean, sometimes it's just not an option anymore to not consider people as people. People go home, people read, people see things on TV, people have their own experiences of things going on. I'm not saying it's all a sad story, but it's life, right? Sometimes life happens and we have to recognize that.

Erin Patchell [00:22:57]:

Yeah, I completely agree. Oh my gosh, it has been so much fun having you on the podcast. Just leave the listeners with a little bit more information about how they can get in touch with you if they're interested in this type of support. With developing empathetic leadership how do they go about that?

Maxine Budhu [00:23:19]:

I am currently on LinkedIn exclusively. Look me up. Maxine voodoo. M-A-X-I-N-E-B as in boy, u D, as in David. H u. I'm on there. And all my information and ways to contact me through email or otherwise, that's on there as well. Through my link in bio. Please reach out to me. Even with a question, I'm just always so open to hearing from people and supporting them, meeting them where they are.

Erin Patchell [00:23:47]:

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming.

Maxine Budhu [00:23:50]:

Thank you, Erin, so much for having me. I loved talking with you, and I.

Erin Patchell [00:23:54]:

Have so many more questions for you. I feel like we could talk for hours.

Maxine Budhu [00:23:57]:

I'd love to come back.

Erin Patchell [00:23:59]:

Maybe you could come back in a couple of months. Awesome.

Maxine Budhu [00:24:02]:

Let's do it.

Erin Patchell [00:24:02]:

Let's do it. Okay.

Maxine Budhu:

Take care.

Erin Patchell:

You too.

Erin Patchell:

That's all for today. 

In the words of the great Dolly Parton, “If you see someone without a smile, give them one of yours.” Thanks for tuning in. Stay weird, stay wonderful, and as always, don't stay out of trouble.

Hello beautiful humans and welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace! I’m your host, Erin Patchell, and my quest is to turn business philosophy into business fact. Today we're delving into a unique aspect of business culture: storytelling and organizational traditions. If you've ever wondered why some companies thrive culturally while others struggle, crafting the myths and legends surrounding your business may be at the heart.

Stay tuned.

[Opening Music]

In the words of the German philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche, "In order not to overlook crucial things, I am accustomed to exaggerate." Isn't that what storytelling is all about? Exaggeration, nuance, and a dance of words to craft a tale that lasts generations, sometimes even centuries.

Historian Yuval Noah Harari emphasizes that "Humans think in stories rather than in facts, numbers, or equations, and the simpler the story, the better." This is as true in a boardroom as it is in a prehistoric campfire setting.

But can storytelling actually impact your bottom line? The answer is a resounding yes, and there's ample evidence to back it up. A 2019 study from Stanford University showed that stories are up to 22 times more memorable than facts alone. Now, apply this to a business context. A forgettable brand is a failing brand. If you can't tell a memorable story, how can you expect your customers to remember you when they're looking for a product or service you offer?

Remember, a company without a story is like a book with blank pages. The stories you tell, whether they're about how the company was founded, or how you overcame immense challenges, are your organizational "artifacts." These artifacts are not mere curiosities; they are the very DNA of your company. They influence how your employees see their roles, how the market perceives your value, and ultimately how resilient your company is when faced with challenges.

If you grew up with a favourite book series or author, then you know this feeling well. 

I’m you’re younger than me, a geriatric millennial, your series might have been Harry Potter. One of my generation’s most popular series - my “Harry Potter” - was  "The Wheel of Time". I first discovered the series as a 12-year-old and was like stumbling on a secret door in a familiar room, one that opened to an intricate world completely unlike my own yet eerily resonant with it. 

The stories were a playground for my imagination, a training ground for empathy, and a canvas on which to project my rudimentary understanding of courage, friendship, and destiny. Characters like Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Egwene were not just names on a page; they became friends, mentors, and sometimes reflections of myself. Every twist of their journey was a twist in my gut, each triumph a shared victory, each setback a collective burden. As I navigated a complicated adolescence, these stories grounded me and taught me resilience, courage and the complexities of leadership and relationships.

Fast forward to seventeen years later at 29, standing in a bookstore with "A Memory of Light," the final tome, in my hands. It felt like holding an artifact, a relic of a lifelong journey both literary and personal. Reading the final words was a cathartic experience, offering a form of closure that was both bitter and sweet. I had grown alongside these characters; their trials and tribulations had been a consistent backdrop to my own. As they found their destinies within the Pattern, it felt like a nudge urging me to continue seeking my own path with the same courage, integrity, and resilience that had inspired me all those years ago. The Wheel of Time had come full circle, but what it taught me influenced and continues to influence the sharp edges of my life and helped make it feel safe for me to grow as a person.

Regardless of whether the story is truth or fiction, they are how cultures are formed, how traditions are passed down, and how values are instilled. In a rapidly evolving business landscape, these stories serve as your North Star. They guide decision-making, set the tone for your company culture, and can even influence your business strategy. A life without story is a barren wasteland. An organization without a story is an undeveloped wilderness, and a place to get lost.

Storytelling impacts numerous areas of your business, particularly your brand and marketing, culture and employee engagement, sales and customer relations, leadership and decision making, and customer loyalty as well. According to a study by Capgemini, 82% of consumers with high emotional engagement would always buy the brand they are emotionally engaged with, compared to only 38% of those who have a low emotional engagement. And a report from the Harvard Business Review notes that emotionally connected customers are about 52% more valuable than those who are just highly satisfied with a brand.

Why? Because a compelling story can evoke emotions, and emotional engagement is what turns a one-time buyer into a lifetime customer.

In the end, if you're not leveraging the innate human love for storytelling, you're leaving a powerful tool on the table. It's time to take control of your narrative and, in doing so, take control of your business's destiny.

Starting with your origin story, craft the tales and mythology of your organization around important milestones through the year; these might be internal milestones or external milestones such as cultural celebrations. The most important thing is consistency. This way, we’re not just building a brand; we’re building a legacy.

Storytelling isn't just fluff; it's a strategic business tool with measurable benefits. It's the thread that stitches together the fabric of your culture, the beating heart of your company.

Stories become artifacts—tangible cultural elements that are proof of your company's values, ideals, and expectations. They serve as templates for behavior and decision-making. Let's not forget, actions speak louder than words, but actions backed by meaningful stories echo throughout the organization. These stories become case studies, cautionary tales, or aspirational examples. They are told orally, through storytelling out loud to each other, and through words on paper to be used strategically, such as during onboarding a new employee.

Celebrations are another form of storytelling. They mark milestones, encapsulate values, and yes, become stories themselves. Celebrating achievements, even small wins, creates a culture of appreciation and aspiration. As the American philosopher and psychologist William James noted, "The deepest principle in human nature is the craving to be appreciated.”

Your team will remember the celebrations—how you made them feel seen, heard, and appreciated. These memories become another layer of your organizational story. A win for one becomes a win for all, a chapter in the collective narrative that says, "We value hard work, and we celebrate it."

Establishing communication milestones or rhythms in your organization is like setting the drumbeat to which your business dances. Regular team meetings, quarterly reviews, or even daily stand-ups are all communication milestones that keep everyone in sync.

These rhythms become the lifeblood of your culture. They set expectations and establish norms. American theoretical physicist Richard Feynman once said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool." If you do not set clear communication milestones, you're fooling yourself into believing that your culture is self-sustaining. It's not; it requires effort, intention, and regular check-ins.

Speaking of stories and traditions, let's travel back to the 5th century BC. Themistocles, an Athenian politician, was instrumental in the development of the Athenian navy, which ultimately defeated the Persians at the Battle of Salamis. Themistocles knew that winning a battle wasn't just about having the most substantial fleet; it was about fostering a culture of pride, strength, and unity among Athenians.

He emphasized the storytelling of their ancestors, their victories, and their unique Athenian identity. He understood that traditions and stories provide a 'why' for the 'what'—giving Athenians a sense of purpose and a reason to fight.

Now, you may not be preparing for battle, but the business world is competitive. A strong culture is your armor, and a compelling story is both a weapon and a shield. Themistocles knew the importance of narrative and tradition; it’s time we put the same emphasis on these elements in our business culture.

Traditions and stories aren't just fluff; they create a bond of empathy. When you, as a leader, face the pressures that demand decisions against your cultural "playbook," your team will understand. They'll empathize because they know the stories, they've lived the traditions, and they understand that survival must sometimes take precedence over everything else. Talk about times when you’ve had to make difficult decisions and how you approached the decision. We human beings are most comfortable when we’re able to predict the decisions that someone is going to make, so let your team in on your thinking processes and build memorable stories around it.

As Joan Didion said, "We tell ourselves stories in order to live." And guess what? Your organization is a living, breathing entity too, and it also needs stories to thrive.

As a leader, you have an extra responsibility to not only uphold the culture but to embody it. And here’s the trick; sometimes you’ll have to make decisions that seem contradictory to your organizational culture. Leadership pressures are complex, and sometimes you find yourself between a rock and a hard place. A strong culture with a strong mythology embedded in values is 

This marks the end of our episode today. Thank you for tuning in. Remember, as Maya Angelou aptly said, "People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."

Your words are important. Use them to their best advantage.

Muriel Rukeyser said "The universe is made of stories, not of atoms." 

Let's aim to leave an indelible impression through our stories, our celebrations, and our rhythms of communication. Thanks for tuning in, and remember: be kind to yourselves, especially in leadership. Being weird is wonderful, but being empathetic is essential.

Stay weird, stay wonderful, and as always, don't stay out of trouble.

Good day friends. Welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace! 

This one is for business owners, but I think the concepts are totally transferrable for everyone right now, so feel free to stick around and we’ll learn together. 

Have you ever felt like you're constantly fighting fires in your business, trying to hold everything together by sheer force of will? You're far from alone. Stay tuned.

--

After my last couple of episodes, I had some questions from listeners on specifically how to find time to do the planning. One person shared their story with me that they felt they had a successful business despite feeling like they were doing everything wrong, but they weren’t even sure about that because they were so scared to look “under the hood” and figure out if their assumptions were true. Juggling all of the balls was wearing on them, and they were afraid if they dropped something, that would be it.

So, what do I mean by 'survival mode'? I feel like some of us have been in survival mode for so long that we don’t know any other way to live. 

Is the stress of managing your business catching up with you? Are you finding tasks that used to be easy getting harder?

Let's dive into understanding 'survival mode'. On the surface, it may sound like a dire financial situation or an immediate crisis. But in truth, survival mode can manifest in many ways, some obvious and others more subtle and insidious. If you, as the CEO or Founder, find yourself continually in this state of high alert and stress, or worse, distracted and inattentive, there's a strong probability that your business is feeling those effects as well.

Before we go any further, I’m going to tell you that if you are experiencing any of these issues right now, this might be a trigger for you and I need to tell you first that 1) every person and every business at some point have experienced these. You’re not alone, this is normal, and there are solutions to these problems even if it feels impossible.

Let’s break down some of the more obvious and less obvious indicators, and then afterward we’ll talk about some of the solutions:

Some obvious indicators include:

• Financial Struggles: Overdue bills, difficulty in making payroll, getting creative with paying the bills, and possibly even declining revenue. Financial instability is often the most direct sign of a company in survival mode.

• High Employee Turnover: When employees leave frequently, it’s a red flag. It not only shows dissatisfaction but also places additional stress on remaining team members.

• Consistent Crises: If every day brings a new fire to put out, that's a telltale sign. Crisis management becomes the norm rather than strategic planning.

• Loss of Major Clients: This can severely impact your revenue stream and indicate deeper service or product issues.

Some of the more subtle or leading indicators are:

• You don’t know your numbers: you’re not reviewing your financial statements regularly, you’re struggling to open your mail because you’re afraid to know the truth, and you’re working or hustling really hard to distract yourself from reality.

• You’re Always Tired: As a leader, if you're perpetually exhausted and overworked, it indicates an imbalance in workload, delegation, or resource allocation.

• Decline in Innovation: When all energy is focused on urgent tasks, there's little to no room left for innovation or forward thinking.

• Stalled Decision-Making: A general hesitancy to make decisions or constantly second-guessing can be a sign. Fear of making a mistake can paralyze an organization.

• Reduced Employee Engagement: Employees seem disinterested, not participating in team events or discussions, and there’s a general lack of enthusiasm.

• Customer Complaints: An uptick in customer grievances or reduced customer satisfaction levels can indicate issues in product quality or service.

• Isolation: if you find yourself feeling isolated, not sharing your concerns, avoiding mentorship or advice - especially avoiding any constructive advice - it could be a sign you're in survival mode.

These signs are overwhelming and that we experience them doesn’t make us weak - it makes us human. Before even fully embracing or acknowledging the harsh truth, I think it’s important to understand “why” we become so good at compartmentalizing or sublimating the truth. Understanding why is what gives us the grace and empathy for ourselves so that we can start making positive change happen.

The harsh truth is that it’s almost impossible to spin out of this by yourself. You might be lucky enough to have a great team around that can help, but you’ll need to be totally transparent about it. Or, you can reach out to someone like myself, who works with business owners directly to build more resilient businesses, but help like ours can be an investment.

If my money was totally tied up and I had nothing to invest, this is what I would do:

First, I would audit my schedule and remove anything from my calendar that wasn’t directly supporting or driving revenue. I would similarly audit my expenses and remove anything that isn’t directly supporting critical business operations. I would scale back customer service to the critical operations that my customers absolutely needed. No more “ nice to have value added services” until I’ve evaluated whether it really makes a difference for my customers. I would join a community of business owners ideally in person, but it can be done virtually as well, and start by asking for advice there first. I would read or listen to whatever books I could get my hands on about business finances and follow the guidance. Remember, if you don’t have time to read - listen to audiobooks while you’re driving or doing chores. I haven’t actually read a paper non fiction book in years.

However you do it, you need a second set of eyes to help you find the root causes of your stress because it’s probably starting from something that you might be totally unaware of.

Remember though, that this is important. A few episodes ago, we chatted about how the founder, owner or senior leaders are the heart and soul of a business, and that means that your well-being and mindset have a strong ripple effect throughout your organization. You must - must - find the time to learn what you need to learn. You must know your numbers and look at your financials, and get organized, ideally weekly but at an absolute minimum on a monthly basis.

So, survival mode isn’t just about finances. It’s often a complex combination of unknowns, market changes, blind spots, miscommunications, personal conflicts, operational inefficiencies. It’s about the entanglement of each of these challenges, and more, like you’re caught in the middle of a tornado filled with a million sheets of paper and the tiny cuts bring you to your knees.

Step 1) Slow Down: It sounds counterintuitive, especially when it feels like everything is on the line. But taking a pause allows you to gain perspective. Breathe, step back, and assess the situation from a bird’s-eye view. Sometimes, the best way to speed up is to first slow down.

Step 2) Acknowledge the Situation: Before any change can occur, there needs to be acknowledgment. Recognize that you're in survival mode and understand it's okay to seek help or alter course.

Step 3) Know your Numbers. This is a big one. Bob Parsons, the founder of GoDaddy, said: "Measure everything of significance. Anything that is measured and watched improves." Financial Literacy; you don’t need to be a CPA, but you do need a fundamental understanding of balance sheets, income statements, and cash flow statements. You should identify the critical metrics that drive your business whether it's customer acquisition costs, lifetime value, or inventory turnover, know the metrics that matter most. Cash Flow is King: Especially when you're navigating a storm, cash flow becomes vital. Regularly forecast, track, and manage your cash flow. Remember, businesses don’t go under because they aren’t profitable—they fold because they run out of cash. If that statement is confusing, I would recommend reading Profit First by Mike Michalowiscz. Make data-informed decisions: Use your numbers to guide decisions. Whether it's pivoting a product line or renegotiating a lease, let data drive your actions.

Step 4) Communicate with Transparency: Open a line of dialogue with your team. Share the challenges, listen to their feedback, and make them part of the solution.

Step 5) Realign with Your Vision: Go back to the core of why you started the business. Reconnect with that passion and purpose, and use it as a compass to guide your actions. As Stephen Covey said: "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing."

Step 6) Develop an Actionable Plan: Break down challenges into actionable tasks. Set short-term and long-term goals. Ensure that there's a roadmap leading you out of the storm.

Step 7) Learn to Experiment: In the dynamic landscape of business, adaptability is king. Relying solely on old methods and practices can lead to stagnation, making your business vulnerable to unforeseen challenges. To thrive, cultivate a curious mindset, take smart calculated risks, create feedback loops, stay updated and know your numbers. As Jeff Bezos once said, "If you double the number of experiments you do per year, you're going to double your inventiveness."

Step 8) Seek External Guidance: This could be in the form of mentors, industry experts, or even business coaches. An external perspective can shed light on blind spots and offer solutions you might not have considered. Like Sheryl Sandberg said, “"Trying to do it all and expecting that it all can be done exactly right is a recipe for disappointment. Perfection is the enemy."

Step 9) Foster a Culture of Resilience: Empower your team, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and growth mindset. When they see challenges as opportunities, the entire organization becomes more robust.

Step 10) Monitor and Adapt: Remember, the journey out of survival mode isn’t linear. There will be setbacks. It's essential to continuously monitor progress, gather feedback, and be willing to adapt your strategies as necessary.

Step 11) Celebrate Small Wins: Morale can be a game-changer. Celebrate the little milestones, and let your team know that their contributions are valued. These celebrations fuel momentum and create a positive environment conducive to growth and success.

In closing, escaping survival mode isn’t just about extricating oneself from immediate crises; it's about setting up a system and culture that prevents those crises from overwhelming the business in the future. This can be very hard to accomplish when you’re in the middle of the tornado, and almost impossible to accomplish by yourself, so remember to reach out for help.

That wraps up today’s episode. Remember, it's all about being courageous enough to ask for help, vulnerable enough to learn to adapt, wise enough to know what not to do and kind enough to give yourself grace and empathy through the process.

“Be patient with yourself. Self-growth is tender; it's holy ground. There's no greater investment." – Stephen R. Covey

Thank you for tuning in. Stay weird, stay wonderful and remember, don’t stay out of trouble.

Welcome, beautiful humans, to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, the show where we explore the extraordinary potential of ordinary organizations. I’m your host, Erin Patchell, and today we’re journeying deeper into the realm of strategic planning.

In our previous episode, we covered the foundational aspects of strategic planning. Today, we're exploring how to infuse customer value into every step of the implementation process, building a resilient continuous improvement ecosystem, and ensuring that every functional area in your organization works together in harmony. Stay tuned

Hello beautiful humans. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and I’m a lot of things but today I will be your strategic planning concierge. 

Welcome to my podcast, Weirdos in the Workplace, where we explore how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose can be harnessed to build extraordinary visionary organizations. 

But, if you don't have a vision and a strategy, you haven’t got much. Let’s talk about it.

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Resource links:

• TED: The single biggest reason why start-ups succeed (Bill Gross)
• Business Strategy & Planning (BDC)
• How to Write a Winning Business Plan (HBR)

Amy Davies, CEO of HR tech and training firm First30 and author of “A Spark in the Dark” is a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten her start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers and Mars/Wrigley.

With her experiences personally and professionally, and armed with knowledge derived from Robert D Hare and other researchers, Amy is spreading awareness on the inconspicuous psychopaths that are found in the workplace.

In this episode we dive into the three types of psychopaths, the best ways to protect yourself, how to identify them and more. Hang on tight, because the "blood hungry" psychopaths aren't the only dangerous ones. Prep your ears for an honest and thought-provoking conversation on the psychopaths found in corporate!

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Stay in touch with Amy:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daviesamy/
• Instagram: @amydaviesfirst30
• https://first30ready.com/

Read the book: 

• Without Conscience by Robert D Hare, Ph.D

Script:

When you feel too good around someone or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly?

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with Amy Davies. Amy, say hello.

Hello. Great to be here. 

Very happy for you to be here. Amy is the CEO of First30, the author of A Spark in the Dark. She's a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten a start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers, and Mars Wrigley. Amy also has a new book coming out soon called What Employees Want, Proven Strategies to Attract, Retain, and Engage Talent. And she's the proud owner of a beautiful Doberman named Riker.

Yes. And as I was telling you, that is the most important role that I play in life. I'm really his servant. That's basically how it works. Dobermans are beautiful creatures.

Oh,'re very nice very nice how old is Riker tell me more 

Yeah well he's three and a half and for any of your Star Trek fans out there I'm a big Star Trek fan I maybe will hold back from calling myself a Trekkie but I do I am a bit obsessed and there is a character William Riker in Star Trek and so and he's universally liked and a very compelling character and he's the second in command so he's considered number one to Jean-Luc Picard so that's why right that's where Riker's name comes from.

Sorry, I'm nerding out now, but I can't. So do you see like, like cosplaying in your future with this? I don't, you know, I don't get too into it. It's actually something my son and I, we got into watching Star Trek together and I find there's so many lessons for kids to learn about compassion, about different societies and acceptance. And there's a lot of moral, great moral lessons in that show. And I think when you only see it from the perspective that it's about like weird aliens, we get a totally different view, but there's a very, there's is so ahead of its time as well it's so so interesting so highly recommend i never really watched the series but i loved the movies when i was a kid star trek movies like next generation or i can't remember there's a few of them but yeah yeah anyways i'm not a big trekkie myself but if you ever get into it, we'll talk.

 Yeah, okay. Yeah. I guess we will, I'm sure. Okay, so we are on a podcast. This podcast is called Weirdos in the Workplace. So before we kick things off, I'd love to know, Amy, you know, is have you ever felt like a weirdo or a rebel, or just not quite fitting in at some point in your life? And tell me about that.

Well, one of the reasons that I started my own business and always knew that I was kind of designed to start my own business was that I never felt like I could just go tow the company line. That was just never me. I never enjoyed being part of an in group where there was people that were in and then there was people that were out. And I could never go along with a company strategy just because the company said this is our strategy. Even if I could put a smile on my face and move forward, I really struggled with it internally when I wasn't bought in to what the decisions the business was making. And the biggest thing for me is that I found and wrote a great book about this called Think, Do, Say. And, you know, companies saying a lot of things that I knew from the inside that they weren't actually doing. So I never felt like I fit in to companies, even though I really liked the people I worked with, I really enjoyed it. But I kind of had an entire career where I always felt like a little bit of an outsider. And much like HR, it's your job to put the third party hat on. I had a role in businesses that required that I was almost I had to be objective in my role. So I actually had permission to sit a little outside and comment on what was going on inside. And that felt very comfortable for me.

So yeah, to answer your question, basically my whole career, I felt like even though I presented like an insider, and I'm sure many of us go through that, we are saying all the right things and we're smiling and nodding, but inside we're feeling dramatically different. What led you? Was there like a moment or a culmination of moments that led you to starting your own business? Well, I worked for another entrepreneur fairly early on in my career. We had a complicated relationship, but I really did admire aspects of his business, of his business acumen. And I learned so much from him. And I did really well at the company. And it was the first time I realized that I can do this, like I could actually, I'm not a salesperson by, you know, the traditional view of what a salesperson is. But I realized that I was really good at building relationships. And I got him a ton of new clients. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if I can make him all this money, certainly I could do this for myself one day. And that started me off on the path of becoming an entrepreneur. So while I say we had a complicated relationship, I really appreciate what he taught me. I learned so much from him. And so I am very grateful for that experience. But it is and I'm learning now as a business owner, how difficult it is to run a business. So I can empathize more with what he was going through when I worked for him on in the very early stages of building his business. Yeah. And I know we've both worked for like inspirational bosses, we've both had, you know, not so inspirational bosses, probably or people that we've worked with or people we've, you know, friends who've worked with people, you know, and, and that kind of leads us to, I think our topic. Great segue. Great segue.

Just for the folks listening, you know, Amy and I had a chat probably what it was like a few weeks ago maybe a month ago um and you know talking about like what are we going to talk about on the podcast and amy brought to me this idea of you know something that was a little bit different and i thought it was amazing and all amy i'd like to like what how did this you you thought i would want to talk about my something to do with my actual products and services but no I suggested we discuss this book called Without Conscience and it's called Without Conscience the Disturbing World of Psychopaths Who Live Among Us or the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert D. Hare. And he's actually a Canadian. And he's a world-renowned criminal psychologist who is a member of the Order of Canada.

He created the psychopathy checklist, which is widely used in the criminal and judicial system in more countries than just Canada. So for once, we have the leading thinker in a space. And so my life has been touched by a psychopath. And I think most people's lives have, I believe, I'm going to say I believe that I lived with a psychopath for eight years of my adult life. And when I moved away from that situation, I really felt strongly that I had something went terribly wrong. It was an awful situation. And I thought, how can I protect myself? And I think like many of the people who are your listeners, they've had an experience where they've worked with someone, maybe it's someone in their personal life, but maybe they've worked in a place, and I've had this experience too, sadly, where they feel that they are dealing with someone they can't reason with, who acts out in anger, who treats them really poorly, no matter how they change their behavior, that person stays the same. And I, and I think that my intent with this, having this conversation today, is that I want to do what Dr. Hare is aiming to do. And that's to spread awareness about psychopaths, because I find I present I do corporate talks as well. And I'll talk about psychopaths during these talks and what I've learned from dr hair and there's always giggles in the room always and i want us to get to a point where it doesn't feel like someone getting up there talking about extraterrestrials uh it's about someone getting up there talking about a real problem dr hair and there have been estimates that are higher um but he talks about maybe 1% of the North American population being non murderous psychopaths. But there are estimates that raise it to about four to 5%, with five to 15%, showing some like who are borderline. And so this these are people are murderers. Is that what you're saying?

No borderline psychopaths. Okay, gotcha. We can get into it in more detail. But the way to think about it is that there's a very small percentage of psychopaths who are actually blood hungry, like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. That's often the visualization we have of these people or the people like, Dr. Hare talks about it a lot in his book, Hannibal Lecter, right? I wish that what we could do is take all of these, like, especially in the media, they create these monstrosities of people, these evil geniuses who are murderous and compelling, remove that from your mind. That is not the reality. These people, when you dig under the surface, are very, very base people. They're very boring if you remove all the bells and whistles. But I do think that we have to realize that this person is someone we might get on the elevator with every day. There's someone we'll like bump into at the grocery store. We might meet them on a Tinder date, right? So we have to be very careful. And there are ways that we can protect ourselves from these people as well that I think will be really important to talk about today. But I thought it would be helpful to talk about today. But I want I thought it would be helpful to talk about how Robert Hare defined psychopaths, but also what their brain activity looks like, because this is not just a airy, there's nothing airy fairy about it. It's grounded in research and science. And so I thought it would be helpful to maybe pull out a quote from his book, if that's okay.

 Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving selfishly take what they want, and do as they please, violating social norms, and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. So that's how he talks about what a psychopath is. It's important for us to recognize, though, they've done tests on the minds of people who are psychopaths. And what they find from a neurological perspective, is that the for our brains, we have the amygdala and that lights up when exciting things happen. And we you know, we get it's our kind of reaction to rewards. But in a psychopath, this lights up far more strongly in response to reward stimulus. Oh, interesting. Yes, but there's more. There's the prefrontal cortex, and this is responsible for empathy, the regulation of our emotion, emotions promoting pro-social behavior. And there is reduced connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala in people who are psychopaths. So your rewards are going crazy and the lighting up and not connecting as well with the prefrontal cortex. There was some really interesting brain science that he included in that book, actually around like the left and right brain and how they regulate emotions as well.

That was, I thought, very fascinating. I would highly recommend folks to read this book if you're finding this conversation interesting right now, because you'll see that it goes so, so deep. It's just like Alice going right down that rabbit hole right um and storytelling that he he produces as well so many stories about psychopaths and many stories about psychopaths in the workplace which I found really interesting um it was written oh sorry about that oh go ahead yeah it was written in a time before trigger warnings but I want to put a trigger warning, like huge red flag. It was a really hard book to read. And I have a headache right now. And I think it's because I spent the weekend finishing my research for this podcast. And it's, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. Like when I first started listening to the audiobook, because I'm not going to lie. Like when I, when I first started listening to the audio book, cause I'm an audio book girl, I was like, what did I do? This is, it was really hard. It was hard to read. And it's especially hard to think all of us have a little bit of trauma probably going on, you know, and it is a little bit triggering, but if you can push past it, you know, really, really worthwhile. Yeah, it is worthwhile, because being aware is your first line of defense. And, and I'll give you the example, okay, because these are people who are, they mimic the behavior that gets them what they want, even though they don't really understand. And it's described in the book, I don't know if you remember this, and correct me if I'm getting the quote wrong. But they know the words, not the music.

Yes. And so they're learning over time. And that's why they're able to be so charismatic and charming at the beginning. And they do. And so what I do now, is if you are engaged with a new person in a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself, you go into a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself. You go into a workplace and there's someone that's super helpful. Not everyone that's very helpful is going to be a psychopath. And so we have to be careful. But it's that person who's like, if you have any issues, I'm the person to come to. I'm going to help you out. Don't, you know, don't get too close to so and so because they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? don't you know don't get too close to so-and-so because they're blah blah blah blah right so this is the person who and they make oh wow i your experience is just incredible someone i know knows you and they said this and and you start feeling really connected with this person they're flattering you they're love bombing you they're being your support system they're telling you like little secrets about what's going on to help you understand your colleagues.

They are doing exactly that. They're love bombing, right? So when you feel too good around someone, or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly? It's so hard. Yeah. Like, like, I'm like, I kind of do all of those things, you know, but I'm, I'm definitely not a psychopath. Like, after reading the book, I'm like, I can definitely self diagnose myself as certainly not a psychopath. Thank God. But yeah, you and I met, I felt really good when we met and I uh you and I spoke but I never felt like you were coming on too strong you were like let's do this let's get on to yeah right but I never felt like you were trying to skip phases in our friendship right you know I didn't feel like you all of a sudden wanted to be my best friend. And when we look at romantic relationships, and I know we're here to talk about the workplace today, but I think it's important also, since we're on the topic to talk about this. Imagine in a romantic relationship, there's a really great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. And they are I can't actually I might have that title wrong. So I might come back to that. Women Yes, it's called Women Who Love Psychopaths is by Sandra Brown. And she explains that what psychopaths do when they're entering a new relationship is they throw out an empathy hook. And by what I mean by that, and what she means by that, more importantly, is they are testing you to see if you're the type of person they can manipulate. And I was this person. And this is what I learned from researching all of this in the workplace. And I was the fixer. I was the mother. I was the person you could go to. And I'd be like, oh, my gosh, that person did that to you. I'm so sorry. Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, person did that to you. I'm so sorry.

 Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, why did that? Why do you think that person said that to you is, you know, sounds like you might have been blah, blah, blah, right? I was not that person. You weren't the skeptic. The psychopath does not want a skeptic, right? And so I was that nurturer and that, you know, helper, and I thought I could change everybody. And that is why I used to say to my friends, I'm like, I drive men crazy. But it wasn't that at all. I was just psychopaths just loved me because, from what I can tell, just because I was that person, and I was falling for all of those empathy hooks, right? And so we want to be careful that we're asking those questions of people, or even to ourselves in a workplace, let's say, if they're talking about a lot of conflict all the time, and talking about how they're the victim, because psychopaths are always the victim, they're never at fault in their minds. So we have to really start asking ourselves, why are, why is there so much issues with this person? Why do they seem to have an issue with everyone, right? Well, and, you know, especially in the workplace today, when being vulnerable is so valued now, I think more than it has been before. That, you know, we have to buffer ourselves with some kind of armor against, you know, being taken advantage of, right? Yeah, I think it's amazing that you're that kind of person, right? That I think that you, you know, that you're, you're so generous and loving and wanting to protect people and, you know, wanting to, you know, to give yourself.

And it really sucks that there are people out there that take advantage of them. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was it something like 20% up to 20% of CEOs, or there was a very high percentage that I'm recalling of, of leadership, people in leadership positions positions i don't know if it was 20 i never know how accurate those stats are because how would they actually know who is this i mean based maybe on their behavior but i would even think that dr hair would say it's impossible to give an estimate but what he what he does say and what is widely known is they're attracted if there's a well they're attracted it's like a drinking hole, they're attracted to it, right? So if there's a way, if investment banking is a great way to, white collar crime is huge among psychopaths because they, you know, look at Bernie Madoff. I've never diagnosed him myself, nor could I, nor am I qualified to, but I'm sure there's widely held beliefs that he is a psychopath. Politics attracts psychopaths because now they can control lawyers. And it's still going to always be a very small percentage.

 So I don't want to cast any shade on these professions. But these are people that like power and control the military, police. Right. like power and control, the military, police, right? So if we think of those types of areas where they can be seen as important, have power and walk away with a big wad of cash all at the same time, that is what they're attracted to. Yeah, and these are the successful psychopaths that he talks about. Yeah, so these are folks that, you know, are living fairly normal lives um probably only being like the only checks and balances that they have in terms of regulating their behavior is um you know the transparency of situations and you know the i mean the law they probably try to get away with whatever they can really but right yes and you're absolutely right to bring that up as like quote unquote, successful psychopaths, because of course they, there's many of them in the criminal justice system as well that aren't succeeding, but these might be your cousin or even your brother or sister. Often it's uncovered when there's financial issues. So if there's an inheritance, suddenly the psychopath and the person is unmasked, even if they've kept it under wraps a little bit until that time. So you see when people's backs up or up against the wall. I thought it might be helpful to talk about the different types of psychopaths and their behavior in the workplace.

This is based on a book that was co authored by Dr. Hare, called snakes in suits, and another person called named Paul Babiak. So if you're okay with that, I might jump into the different types of psychopaths in the workplace, because what I hope people think is like, oh, my gosh, I know this person. And now they'll know that they kind of have to protect themselves. Because what I like I said, I've included this information in some talks that I give. And I find that people do the normal giggle when I start talking about it. And I talk about some of the characteristics of a psychopath, some of their behaviors and the implications. And all of a sudden, it gets very quiet in the room, and you can hear a pin drop. And after my presentation, people will gingerly come up to me and say, I think I worked with someone like this, or I think this person might be. And I even had a woman call me, I don't even know how she got my phone number, bawling a week after a presentation that she had colleagues that were harassing her, and she felt they fit into this profile as well. So the different types of psychopaths that you'll encounter in the workplace, as described in Snakes in Suits, the con, and they use their voice to manipulate you.

They're really great at storytelling. They mix falsehoods with truth um and they get people to do what they want kind of by tricking them and conning them um and then there's the bully i don't know if you you don't have to share i don't know if you ever think of someone like that comes to your mind when you think of that the bully um i don't have no the con the con yeah for sure i've had folks in my history that that i could have definitely qualified as the con 100 yeah the smooth talker um the bully is kind of a build on the con they start off as a con but when they don't get what they want. They really will escalate and use dominance and they'll, you know, they might yell. And I've always had a huge disdain for yelling in the workplace. There is no reason to yell at a person in the workplace unless you're yelling to them to get out of the way of a flying object, a falling object. A person that is yelling, in my opinion, is a problem person in the workplace. And that is something that needs to be addressed immediately.

 And I think that's something that employers can do right away to address any issues. I'm not saying someone who yells is always a psychopath by any means, but that might be your first clue. There's an issue with that employee. clue there's an issue with that employee. The puppet master is the most impressive of the three types. They have all the characteristics of a con and a bully, but they use others to do their dirty work for them. They recruit people, they're often referred to as flying monkeys to send their messages for them. But they're the most prolific of the three types. Prolific in what way? They have all of the characteristics of the other. So they're not just, you know, someone who's a con, they might just have that kind of capability. There's the bully who has to go to yelling, the puppet master may have more mastery over their their behavior than the other two. And I would argue that they would be the most dangerous because they're just highly skilled in manipulating people. Probably, would they be more difficult to identify in some cases as well? Absolutely. And there's so and I write about it in a spark in the dark as well. I write about how people I don't call them psychopaths, because I don't know, there's, there are people who are bullies. And psychopaths are always narcissists.

 But narcissists who are far higher percentage of the population are not always, narcissists are not always psychopaths, but they are also very difficult personalities to deal with. So you may not be able to distinguish between the two. I think it would be really hard for any lay person who's not trained to be able to identify them. And I think it's even Dr. Hare talks about falling for psychopaths, cons, he's not immune either. And I say that I do all of these things to protect myself. I am not immune. In fact, I started a friendship with a woman who met with her daughters and, you know, went out and gave them all kinds of career advice. We had dinner together. It was revealed that she was a horrible con artist who had stolen money from refugees and treated them off terribly. There was articles about her in newspapers. And she had all this, she had committed white collar crime. It was awful. And I fell for her charm for sure. That was a long time ago before I got really into this. But it shocked me. Fortunately, I didn't get too close to her because everything was revealed very soon after our kind of friendship began, but it terrified me to think what the potential could have been. Had I not had that not been revealed to me. I feel like I must, I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation. feel like I must I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation um and I I feel like I've got like a like a like a radar for you know nonsense people yes like people who are like I'm like this doesn't add up you know or whatever but I also like to make sure I give people the benefit of the doubt so you know for me it's like what's that Maya Angelou quote?

When people show you who they are, believe them. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah, don't I wouldn't give people that many chances if they're doing something or demonstrating some real problematic behavior. That's for sure. That's good. And I wish so many more of us were like that. I don't think things would be as much of a mess. And it's really interesting, because in this book, they talk about the fact that people who are psychopaths in the workplace, they perform very well in terms of they rate very high in communication skills, charisma and visioning, but they rate really low in performance and productivity. Oh, interesting. Yet they still get promoted because they're so charming, right? And they have this bullish behavior that makes them seem like they really care about the business. So I wrote about that a little bit in Spark and why these people get promoted. They're just really good at managing up. And upward. Yes. I learned that actually, I learned that from a few people I, I, you know, that is that is teachable. By the way, I can teach this. I feel upward on your girl. Oh, wow. Well, you know, it's no, that could be a good thing, because you're so good at managing to like down, right? And you're actually taking care of the people who report up into you. Well, I feel like it's, it's a matter of trying being okay with trying new things, you know, but it's a little bit different than what we're talking about. Anyways, that's a bit of a bunny trail. But yeah, the classic failing upward where, you know, and there have been so many executives that I've spoken to that I'm, you know, they can't do anything without an assistant, right? Without a part of me?

Without an assistant. Without an assistant. And you wonder how in the world they ever were able to get to the position they were in. Because they just, they're completely useless without a wonderful executive assistant who does everything for them. Well, one of the things that psychopaths are really good about is overstating their qualifications and outright lying about them. So one of the things, pieces of advice I have for businesses is do background checks on people. This person that, I mean, I haven't, well, I won't go into too much detail, but there is someone I know 100% who does not have the qualifications they claim to have and the degrees they claim to have publicly on LinkedIn. One of the degrees that they say they have doesn't even exist as a degree. And so if you do a background check on someone and find out that they're lying about these things, and I do, I'm not saying that, yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees. So I do not want to. Yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees.

So I do not want to have them excluded here. But if you do a background check on someone and their qualifications turn out to be untruthful, that is a huge red flag. And I don't think you should hire that person because why are they lying? That's what then that is exactly what a psychopath would do. why are they lying that's what and that is exactly what a psychopath would do yes yeah and see this is one of the reasons why i have a difficult time with references because i have a friend who had a previous she was i'm sure her her ex was a psychopath you know um one of my best friends actually and um what he would do when he was trying to get a job is he just have his mom or his sister's brother's second cousin or whatever, be his reference. You would act like he would, it was complete fabrication. So, you know, as an employer, I'm like, you know, I don't I don't even know that I believe in references, to be honest, prove to me what you can do. Right. And then like demonstrate that you have the skills that you you say you have. Maybe that's just a skeptic in me. But I'm just like, let's let's work together for a month or two and see if you can actually do what you say, you know, you can do and then, you know, if you prove it, then you're good. Well, one of the things that really helps with reference checks now is the fact that most people professionals are on LinkedIn. So someone gives you references and, and they're in a corporate role, and none of their references you can find easily on LinkedIn, then that's can be a red flag. But also, if you don't hear consistencies in their references, like they have three different references who are saying maybe positive things, but entirely different things, then make sure that you're noting that because then those might be a clue that those aren't real references as well. Yeah. Okay.

Good advice. I'm sure you have lots of good advice for higher ed. Well, I do have a list of it. And so we can talk about it at the at the end for sure. But the the thing that I the other thing I want to talk about is the prevalence in the political sphere. There is, you know, a lot of that's one that's identified with psychopaths as well. And I kind of fell back in my chair when I read this over the weekend. I'm not sure if it stood out to you, but a psychopath. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So if they're talking about other people accusing them of being a thief or something like that, or a cheater that they cheat on their spouse, that might be a good sign that that person is doing those things. But a psychopath believes that whoever, and this is a quote, whoever is weak is also a sucker. And that kind of stuck with me as well, given all the things that I'm hearing going on in politics right now. It just, it really did stick with me and put me on my heels. One of the other quotes that I found really interesting in the book. And this is again, why I think we need to really drive awareness about this topic. He asked the question, are we unknowingly allowing a society to evolve that is the perfect breeding ground and perhaps a quote unquote, killing field for psychopaths? As our newspapers tell us, this question grows more pressing every day. And this book was written in the 1990s. I would love to see a updated like another edition. But Dr. Hare is, you know, he was born in the 1930s. So I'm not sure he's has it on his plans to write a book. He must have some protégés. He does. If anyone's listening to this and is a protégé of Dr. Hare's, it's time for a new edition of this book. Or better yet, just come on the podcast with me and Amy. Yes. I have a lot of questions for you. I have a lot of questions.

But, you know, here's the thing. And I think a good accompaniment book, and maybe it's one we want to talk about another time, is called The Gift of Fear. And that's by Gavin DeBecker. And it's all about trusting your gut. So a big piece of advice that I would give to anyone listening to this podcast is, yes, be aware of the red flags. Like if you're in a job interview, and the person who is meant to be your manager does all the talking in their interview and if you won a game they won the olympics like it's like they always have to one up you and if they're not listening that can be a really good sign you're dealing with someone who's a problem personality okay i'm not going to say a psychopath but a problem personality that's like right pardon me grade three behavior right exactly yeah we all remember from grade three four whatever right yes we're always stuff I did probably the same thing you know but you grow out of that at some point or most people do you do grow out of that for sure um but the thing that Gavin DeBecker talks about in the gift of fear is that our gut is there for a reason to give us warn early warning signs that something might be wrong and it's surprisingly accurate and we should listen to it so if you feel that you might be in a situation in the workplace because it's what is really frightens me okay i'll give you the example of Robert Durst. You know who Robert Durst is? He was the subject of the documentary called The Jinx. He's from a very wealthy property management company or property owners in New York. And his wife went missing. Years and years ago. Was this one of the stories in the book? It wasn't in the book. It's kind of the book was written before this particular situation concluded and i think we really needed the conclusion in order to really um put a label on what happened right but he was not a ted bundy or jeffrey dahmer he wasn't a murderous person but he had people over the course of his life who, who angered him and who got in his way. And he made sure that he took care of that.

So I don't want to instill fear in people, what I want is for them to protect themselves. But we can become the target of a psychopath without recognizing it. If we're their competition in the workplace, they do what I refer to in a spark in the dark is as a reconnaissance mission. When they meet us, they find out all about us or so they ask us a lot of questions. It's the one time they stop talking about themselves to find out, you know, about you and they're really interested. And then you might say to them, Oh, yeah, I have to pick up drop off my kids at this time and pick them up at that time. Now let's fast forward to a time you become a threat to them professionally. Up until this point, they've been flattering you, they've been on side, they've been so supportive. And then all of a sudden, guess when they're booking meetings, when they know that you have to drop off your kids or pick them up, you know, or they're, so they found that information out. And now they're going to be really good at weaponizing that information and using it against you. And so they that's dangerous for your career. And it's also the emotional baggage you carry, especially if you've had a boss who's a psychopath. And what we do naturally, is we're like, I'm going to change my behavior right like we're normal people you think quote unquote never been so happy for adhd in my life all of that listen yeah i mean this it can be a real benefit to ask questions that other people are afraid too afraid to ask or to call out like the emperors, be the person calling out the emperor, right?

So that's a huge, that can be a huge advantage. But for people who are like me, and started, you know, were very naive, I was very naive. They're, they're gonna put themselves in this position a lot. And it's not your fault. I'm not saying it's your fault. But you're in this situation, and you are trapped, and you've been manipulated by this person, and you think it's you, it's not you, it's them. And we have to stop trying to change our behavior, thinking it's going to change their behavior, because they aren't going to change. And if you if you're dealing with a boss or a colleague you you see as a psychopath psychopath one of the best things to do is you know they say like the the thing that a wolf dislikes the most is an empty field right don't give them anything to work with so people people whose spouses may be this type of person and they're leaving them or people whose bosses or colleagues might be this type of people we have this innate uh need or this and I understand it to justify. Well, no, it wasn't like that. It was like this. Well, no, that didn't happen this way. It happened that way. Just stop talking. Don't respond to their emails. Don't don't engage. Pardon me? The gray rock method. I think I've heard like you want to. Yeah, I've never heard of that. Yeah. So I think that's what you do with narcissists is what I've heard. So folks want to actually Google this method. I believe they call it the gray rock method. Yeah. That's I'm going to look that up because I'm really interested in it, but yeah, don't give them anything to work with any more than you already have.

 That can be really helpful to you and it can save you a lot of angst because they're never going to see things from your point of view. They don't care to. They are there to cause harm for them. Like, it's like you're trying to solve the fight. They're trying to have the fight. They like the fight. Or they have a goal, you know, and you're just, you know, one stepping stone, you know, towards the goal or you're not. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So did you want me to talk about some of the suggestions between both or is this something else? Yeah, no, I would love for us to like, kind of finish this up, kind of tie this up with a bow. Sure. A little bit about, you know, how can we as people identify and protect ourselves? And I think it's interesting, the idea of organizational transparency as well. Is that something that you ever talk about in relation to this? Well, I, this, that's not something I've talked about in relation to this specifically. I do think that there are ways that organizations, I don't know how being, I think being transparent can help, but it's, it's not going to resolve the problem altogether. Because even if it's a transparent organization, or aiming to be, these people are really good at flying under the radar. I recently presented about promoting praise culture in your organization. And I think one of the positive side effects of having a culture that promotes praise is that people like this aren't going to fit into that culture for very long. And their bad behavior is going to stand out so dramatically from everyone else that they won't last in an organization like that.

So to me, it's less about transparency, and more about having an organization that thrives on the on positivity and recognizing employees. And you don't think that they can adapt easily to that type of organization? I just don't think that they would be able to survive that type of organization. Because in that organization, if you yell at someone, that's going to be totally against the culture that the business is trying to create. That's entirely unacceptable. And that's actually one of the pieces of advice that Dr. Hare gives is that you should set boundaries and then follow through. And if you don't follow, it's like raising kids, right? If you don't set boundaries and follow through, they're going to know that there's cracks in the system and they're going to exploit those because that's what kids do. But that's how you raise, I always say, raise children other people like. we get into the strategies for protecting yourself. The Dr. Hare believes that these people are born this way. And it's not something it's not a rehabilitative problem, in the same way that narcissism is you can't rehabilitate someone. And he's saying that we shouldn't give up on the research for rehabilitation, because it is so important to our society. But I do think it's important for us to recognize, you're not going to fix this problem. And you need to get yourself away from it. And that's one of the pieces of advice. If you think you're in a situation, and I know it, believe me, I love all people know it's not an easy thing to do. But if you're in a situation with someone who you think fits this profile, you need to find a way out of that situation as quickly as possible and keep yourself safe.

And this is why and I think it's important to bring this up. Again, I know it's not about this. If you are leaving a spouse, you believe to be this type of person, you need to protect yourself in the early days. This is where we see people turn. Remember, I talked about Robert Durst, people getting in his way. If you're saying to someone, I'm going to take your kids, I'm going to take your house, I'm going to, that's going to be a trigger for their violence, right? So, and not that you would say that. And even if you don't say that, so that is why women's shelters exist and places where people can be protected. So if you're in a situation where you're leaving what you think could escalate, and don't be naive to the fact that it can escalate happens all the time. I think it's every six days a woman is killed by an intimate or ex intimate partner in Canada. In the US, the numbers are far, far higher. I think it's something like every three days or something. It's crazy how high the numbers are. So protect yourself. That's really important. And I just know that we're listening to this for professional purposes, that there's going to be people who are tuning in that might be like, oh my gosh, I think I'm living with this person. Okay. So Dr. Hare's advice, one of the recommendations he makes is to know yourself. Like know what your weaknesses are, right? Like you and I've just talked about your you have a lot of qualities that make you kind of repel this kind of person, which is amazing.

And I wish I had them my whole life. I unfortunately didn't know myself very well. And as I've learned more about this personality, I shouldn't even call it, it's not a personality type, it's a disorder. I've learned more about it. I've been able to also turn the mirror onto myself and think like, what am I doing that is making me vulnerable to these situations? So be aware of what weaknesses you have that can be exploited, because they are looking for the weaknesses that they can exploit in others like a wild animal kind of thing. Right? Like I said before, take a pause, if it feels too good to be true, if you feel too good in someone's company, that might be an early warning sign. And being aware of that is really important. Because especially I know, again, we're talking at work, but someone in the workplace might be flattering you constantly. And you're like, Oh, my gosh, I just have to go to that person's office. I feel so good when I'm around them. Stop and ask yourself why they use a lot of expression, expressive language. Actually, they use their hands a lot. I don't know if you remember reading that. And I kind of I felt that was a little problematic only because like it reminded me like of he was describing basically an autistic stimming almost right okay that's very good yeah need to look into that more because you're like there's some kind of I don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's some kind of i don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's so much overlap with autistic stimming like maybe yeah that could be a problem i think what he's saying is it's a blanket thing for that type of person but just because a person is doing it does not make them that type of person i would i would assume not no yeah of course not absolutely not yeah um and then uh but they do things to distract you and even the way they speak makes you feel distracted because they often won't answer questions directly and they'll take you down this rabbit hole of conversation that makes you forget even what the question was that you asked in the first place right um. Yeah. And obviously listening to your gut. So if you're seeing and feeling if you're feeling like something is wrong, something is probably wrong. So delve into that.

 Don't walk away from that. Also, if other people are often better than we are at seeing if we are in a situation that is unhealthy. So if you have people and taking a risk and telling you and this is why I never like when someone's manager's manager says, deal with your manager first, if you have a problem, not all problems should be dealt with the direct line manager, because of that direct line managers and the problem, that person's manager needs to know about it and they need to know about it right away. So don't reject people when they're talking about their manager because it's seen as this view of being like, you should have handled it directly. If it's too big a problem, you need the help of someone more senior. Run background checks, as I said, and note any inconsistencies between what they've stated and what you learn about their educate, like about their qualifications.

And then be aware of who the victim is. They are great at making themselves out to be the victim. You might be the victim. But also, I'll give you a real life example. They'll say, people will say if they're getting separated, oh, the kids hate their mom or they hate their dad, right? If they're little kids, what little kids hate their mom or dad? That doesn't exist. So as soon as I hear someone say that to me, I'm like, okay, you're the problem here. I'm finished with this conversation. And then seek professional support. If you've worked with someone who has this type, is this type of person, you may be suffering for a very long time, especially if you worked with them for a long time so please please take care of yourself because um the this could affect your entire career if you're not handling because you might have lost so much self-confidence uh that you really need to go and get the help that you need to kind of recover from that. And hopefully you're in a workplace where maybe you have an EAP, maybe that can get you started, or you have really good benefits. But that's a really good way to handle it.

The last thing that I did want to add, because I did two last points, because I really think they're important for our awareness and our safety. The psychopath is very good at making their victim look like the crazy one. So they'll be very calm as a cucumber, you're coming in, and you'll be having a meeting with someone. And they'll, they'll try to agitate you, they're good at provoking you behind the scenes. And then you're like, I can't believe they're saying that because and they'll be like, look how great like he's nuts, right? And they'll be like, look how great, like he's nuts, right? And they're cool and calm. And so you seem like, and then you start to even question yourself. This happens in therapy a lot with people who are living in a relationship with these types of people. The last point I want to make is single travelers are often a target. And I think that's very relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. Be aware that you might open yourself up to strangers in that situation. Like if you're at the bar, if you're a hotel or something like that, be very aware of who you're talking to, of your surroundings.

Don't give someone more information than they need about you. Pretend that you're traveling with someone else when you're talking to them, even if you feel really great in their company, because that could be the first warning sign. So, yeah. And don't waste your sympathy on them. Do not spend a moment wasting time being sympathetic and as quickly as you can disengage with someone who you think is like this, if you can. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Amy, I'm really happy that you managed to get away from the situation that you told us about before. And I think that's amazingly courageous of you. And that especially now that you're, you know, you're educating other people on that as well.

Yeah, I just I see the damage that it causes on and this is like smaller scale in the workplace, bigger, bigger in, in the news, right? You're hearing all about all of these situations. There's a certain type of person that is causing all of these problems. And, and I do believe that the more we can drive awareness, and I wish, I don't know why people still laugh when I talk about psychopaths. I don't know why. I think people feel like this isn't as common. And I know that it's not like, it's not, you know, what am I trying to say? It is, it's a lot more common than we think it is. Exactly. And it's like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. And they're like, I never saw this coming. And all the like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. I never saw this coming. And all the warning signs were there. And that's what's so painful about some of these situations is all the warning signs are there. We just have this vision of a person who I feel like the media has created for us and that we believe they might look monstrous or give us signals they don't they're amazing they're so opposite to what we think that they are well i think we can come back to that maya anjali quote you know and just yeah look at people and see what they're demonstrating in the workplace and like, you know, use data and use, you know, use like leverage other people's opinions, you know, and kind of like, I guess kind of band together to make sure that we protect each other as well.

Yeah, and I do love that quote and how you completed it. Because you often hear when people show you who they are, believe them. But you said, and it is accurate, believe them the first time. Don't give them another chance. I think that's the actual quote, though, right? Yes, that's what I mean, is we often just cut it off before when people tell you who they are, believe them and it stops. But believe them and it stops. But believe them the first time. The first time part is is very important. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And you can see probably that I'm incredibly passionate about this topic.

So it's been really nice to have the opportunity to talk about it in this much detail. I don't want to come across as though I'm an expert. I'm not. I rely on the experts for this information, but it's certainly something that I've researched a lot and thought about deeply. Absolutely. And it comes across and I can tell. Oh, we need to go and like do a Pilates class or have a glass of wine or something after this I was like please tell me she does not cancel have to cancel our recording today because I cannot carry this I have to I have to kind of not think about this for a little while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation a lot of emotional labor it is it is yes I while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation.

A lot of emotional labor. It is. It is. Yes. I'm glad I did it. And I hope that everyone just puts in that investment for themselves. Just a little bit. Listen to this podcast all the way through. Read these books. They will really help you and they will actually make your life better. It's not going to make it more scary. It's going to make it better. And when Gavin DeBecker talks about the gift of fear he truly is giving you a gift it will not make you more scared it will actually make you feel more empowered that you can handle anything that comes at you

thanks Amy

thank you

don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast where we explore how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose can be harnessed to build extraordinary visionary organizations.

Today, we're going on a journey to understand the single greatest influence on your business. I wonder if it’s what you expect? Stay tuned.

The single greatest influence on your company is your CEO - their approach, psychology, personality, ideas and vision. If your company is highly siloed with each area working autonomously, this could also be said about the leader of that particular area.

Let's dive into the intriguing idea that every organization, in one way or another, is a mirror of its leader's psyche. We'll explore how this reflection influences the business, and more significantly, how you as a leader can mold this reflection for the greatest positive impact.

Welcome back, friends. You're tuned into Weirdos in the Workplace. The podcast that celebrates authenticity, passion, and purpose in our world of work.

I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and today we embark on the journey, exploring how we become who we need to be in order to reach our goals. Are you willing to get addicted to discomfort in progress?

Stay tuned.

Imagine a world where we possess the power to transform ourselves into the person we aspire to be. It's an exhilarating prospect. And for many of us.

In the personal development space, it is reality, and for most of us in the personal development space, before we made that jump, it was an impossibility.

So how do we navigate the intricate psychology of change and personal change? 

Today we're going to dive into the nuances and uncover some secrets that will help both of us continue our transformations.

First, let's get personal. Have you ever had an aha moment?

I really hope the answer is yes.

So let me start by saying that my memory is terrible. Honestly, it's so terrible that it is nearly legendary, and it took me until my 30s to really understand how I was wired enough to start making real progress instead of treading water and to build the systems, structure, and discipline around me to make that happen. So, it took a significant amount of work to even get to that point where I was not just treading water but making progress. But once I did, it was finally like the stone, the stone was rolling downhill rather than me trying to carry it uphill, I was finally working with my strengths rather than against them.

Long story short, the discomfort of forward personal development is only sometimes comfortable. Still, it is infinitely more satisfying than the discomfort of being in that vicious circle of self-loathing, shame, and self-sabotage.

Each critical “aha” moment in my journey leaves an indelible mark on my identity, guiding me toward the person I need to become to make a positive and increasingly positive impact on the world around me.

Let me tell you a little story.

By the time I was 11 or 12 years old, it became very evident to the people around me that I was either naturally numb to my feelings and the feelings of the people around me. Or I had dissociated so much that there was a total block, and I had no idea how to respond to emotional situations.

It was becoming a really big social problem.

And one day, my best friend's mom sat me down, and she told me Erin, as long as you can logically understand how you should react in these situations, then you can pretend you can fake it till you make it. Essentially is what she was telling me and making that OK for me. And to clarify, these are situations where I was being bullied. They were not good; I wouldn't know how to react when someone was upset like they were.

They were traumatic situations, and I just sort of completely dissociated, and so it was actually an unhealthy way of adopting. It was a maladaptation, and I did need to figure out a way to hack myself out of that because at that age, you know, and back then, this was, you know, how old am I? This was 30 years ago, almost.

Back then, you know, kids didn't really see psychologists and things like that. It's changed dramatically in the last 30 years.

So really, we were on our own. And so, my friend's mom essentially taught me how to fake it till I made it, and that day was one of the 1st extremely clear aha moments of my life. From that day forward, my obsession became understanding myself and other people to change myself back into a person who could be engaging and worthy of a community because that was something I really desired for myself.

Do you think it's strange that for all my preaching about authenticity, my personal journey started with acting, which doesn't seem very authentic?

 The thing is, authenticity isn't about who you are right now. On the surface, it's about who you are deep down inside yourself. It's the secret kernel of possibility, hope and potential that you have buried down so deeply that you barely even want to admit that those desires exist. We might bury that potential for many reasons, but it often comes down to cultural or family values.

The illusion of practicality. Some defiance within us, not having the right support systems around us to grow that spark into a raging fire. The person whom we become by accident.

Through our experiences, for better or worse, I don't think that's our authentic selves at all. I imagine my old self before I began to really try and continue to try before and over again and fail and try and fail and try.

That person was sort of like a boat adrift on the sea with no captain navigation, no sails, no letter, no tiller, nothing, just an empty hull drifting from place to place.

Place, you know, feeling just lucky to be staying afloat.

And The thing is, almost everything that comes with actualizing your potential can either be cultivated or learned. You can build and rebuild yourself as you see fit, and it won't happen overnight, but each tiny step in the right direction accumulates compound interest.

All we got to do is get over the barriers. You know it's simple, no, it's not simple, but you know it is worthwhile, and that's the point.

Those external factors and expectations that, over time, become internal factors and expectations conform to societal pressures, cultural norms, and expectations of others—eventually, the expectations of ourselves.

We may have been born with more limited resources and possibilities, and that's a real barrier for a lot of people.

But what I say is that ideas are free. Let yourself dream in a public way and start with small, consistent steps and keep going forward. If you're public about your dreams, you'll find the allies that you need.

Along the way, I can tell you that from personal experience.

Staying inside the comfort zone because it feels safe and familiar, fear of failure, and maybe even more often, sometimes fear of success. It can be overwhelming to think about the energy successful people need to spend on maintaining that success. That gap is even more of a chasm that that idea, that fear of success, is even more dramatic if you're in survival mode. Because right now, if you're in survival mode.

You can barely sustain your current energy level at your current level of success.

The idea of expanding, being successful and expending much more energy is, like, impossibly exhausting.

So, for many of us, the clarity of purpose comes from experience, built gradually over time. Two things overcome almost every obstacle, discipline and time.

With enough discipline and enough time, anyone can do anything they want. I'm a fan of the incremental approach, taking things down to the smallest possible useful steps and slowly building. And I'm constantly preaching this because sometimes that new identity, as I said, the new identity you're imagining, is so far removed from your current identity that that transformation seems almost impossible.

Have you ever had a dream at night that you were totally a different person? And then, one day, you wake up and have an intense deja vu?

So, when I was around 18 years old, right out of high school, I dreamed I was a mom and had many kids running around. I lived in a nice house with a big backyard and a fence around it, and we were hosting some parties.

In my dream, my life felt completely normal, joyful, and peaceful, even with the kids laughing and running around like lunatics. The BBQ fired up, you know, burgers on the barbecue and that smell. When I woke back up to my life at 18 years old, not even out of high school, it seemed completely preposterous.

It was.

It was ridiculous. I had no plan in the book of my life—literally just never-ending blank pages. I didn't have a partner at the time. I didn't even like kids.

At 18, there was. I had like this dark, overwhelming darkness and a weight on my soul that it never felt like I'd feel that hope, comfort, or success.

So Fast forward to 8 years later, I was in my real life. After eight years of sitting in my backyard of our second home, an older house in town with five bedrooms and a big backyard, and our family and friends laughing and telling stories. And my three kids and their cousins and friends were running around like crazy lunatics, and the moment my husband fired up that barbecue and the smell of that BBQ hit.

It was all of a sudden, like in the movies. When time slowed, and I took a moment to observe my reality, I suddenly had the most powerful sense of deja vu.

So was my dream of premonition, or did I cultivate this? Maybe we'll never know. But I can tell you that my life changed so quickly and dramatically in only eight years.

Yet as I lived through it, it felt very incremental and slow, and many challenges had ups and downs.

I lived those eight years almost exclusively outside my comfort zone, through college, navigating complex relationships, and depression, through the pregnancy of birth of three kids, marriage, home ownership, and uncovering and detangling my identity. Who am I as a person, mother, and friend?

As a wife through illness, I was also quite ill in my 20s. My journey to discovering my purpose outside of my family only started after all of this when I began working with professionals seeking leadership development when I was 30. I realized that healthy people are looking for something to belong to that makes them feel safe but challenges them.

That gives us hope and helps us realize our potential; we're holding these two ideas simultaneously. The idea is that I can look at the everyday beauty of my life and how wondrous it truly is.

While some simultaneously want something more profound and to bring the people around me whom I love on this journey at whatever speed is right for them. So I'm here to tell you, you weirdo.

That the courage to become fuller is something that you can cultivate over time that we're all cultivating over time.

So, listening to podcasts, reading books, and researching the path that you're thinking about, not everything has to be a revolution. Don't let it be a revolution. Revolutions start and tend to stop and fizzle out. Let it be an evolution. Start cultivating the people around you who will support you. Don't isolate yourself. Reach out all of a sudden. One day you'll realize you're ready to shed that old identity, and it'll feel like a rebirth.

So how do we reframe fear as excitement? I challenge you to notice those sensations in your body and explore them when you feel resistance or anger.

See if you can play a game with yourself to do the opposite of what your body is telling you to do.

Of course, there's that fine line between legitimately protecting yourself from harm and the grained instincts to avoid emotional discomfort.

So that's important to recognize one from the other like, you know, recognizing the difference between those uncomfortable feelings of uncertainty, unease and ingrained. Biases versus the important frameworks we've created, probably to protect ourselves from harm.

Practicing self-compassion and seeking support and accountability, reflecting and celebrating progress, reflecting and celebrating progress, something we all forget to do. Make sure that even if it's a small milestone, you recognize that it's a milestone. Look back, and it is, you know, look back at the progress and celebrate it if you can. At the heart of personal transformation lies goal setting and strategic planning. But it's not the kind of thing I mean.

You can set goals and try to reach them earlier in this process, but you'll find that you may not reach them, and that's OK. Setting very, very tiny incremental goals is the key. If you need to reach your goals, make them smaller.

It does provide direction, acts as a powerful compass, and helps us tune-up that noise. So clear objectives grant us that focus and clarity, but if you find that you need to hit those goals, make them tinier—tiny, tiny, tiny goals.

As Socrates once said, an unexamined life is not worth living. By reflecting on our experiences and understanding our nature on a deep and profound level, we can chart a course that aligns with our authentic selves.

If you've experienced a remarkable journey in your life, I'd love to share your story. Connect with me at erin@positivist.ca.

As we knew by the end of today's episode, I want to express my utmost gratitude to all of you seeking personal growth and leaning into this uncomfortable process. And remember, you possess the power to become the person you need to be. Let me leave you with an inspiring quote from the renowned entrepreneur and inventor, Thomas Edison: “Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time.”

Thanks for joining us on episode 17 of Weirdos in the Workplace. 

Stay curious, stay authentic, and most of all, don’t stay out of trouble.

Welcome, friends! Today, we're diving into the psychology of the entrepreneur and how to hack our brains out of our natural tendencies in order to achieve success. Stay tuned.

This week on #WITW we are chatting with our friend Garen Jemian. Garen is the founder and head executive coach of Inspireship, author of “Happy People Work Harder”, and PCC mentor coach with more than 2500 client hours (that's a LOT!). He helps public and private sector organizations create coaching cultures and understand how to turn their values into action, among other things.

We are leaning into the power of personal development.

Enjoy!