When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important.

The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration.

We cover:

·      Managing up and whether to buy into your boss’ crazy

·      The hurry up and wait of briefing on options 

·      Verbal directions and when to turn them into written confirmation 

·      When to seek advice on legality 

·      Documentation! And the safeguard of personal file noting

·      The fallacy of ‘not my job’ when every problem for government is a problem for everyone in government

·      Having multiple comms plans and when not to pick up the phone

·      The impacts of external pressure on internal process. 

·      Trap for the young players: informal intel travels very quickly 

·      Who gets to make the decision?

·      Building in agility to allow for changing priorities

Shout out to the  Normal Gossip podcast for inspiring this episode: https://open.spotify.com/show/0KVZ16mLZ1bbNlnKemYTzm 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include:

• fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risk
• safe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protections
• policy hero incentives vs long-term stewardship
• recruitment, merit, and better references
• tribes and bridges between centre and frontline
• proximity, exchanges, and communities of practice
• simplicity bias vs equity and local texture
• outcome measurement, real-time data, and storytelling
• political tempo, accountability, and transparent milestones
• culture as accelerator, not brake.

We covered a wild variety of content in this episode. Here's a smattering:

• Demos The Human Handbrake
• What do blueberries have to do with my job?
• The Trust Equation
• CONTAINED 30 minutes. 3 rooms. One truth about youth justice.
• e61 research on the shift in social spend “Dependency should be debated”
• The newspaper wall in the Kingsman movies

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success.

We cover:

• The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support Ministers
• The lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’
• Whether test and learn will be something younger generations find easier to manage than us Gen X-ers
• The glory of farewell speeches, inspired by Iain Duncan-Smith’s resignation letter.

Referenced in this episode:

• The Institute for Government’s event From disaster to completion?
• Andrew Solomon’s book Far from the Tree

Cover art is from Nesta’s The Radical How. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In the shadow of worries about the NDIS, do we even believe that big system reform in Australia is do-able any more? Is the juice worth the squeeze?

In this first of a two part series, we explore the example of Universal Credit, a 15 year long reform agenda in the UK to combine 6 benefits into one, and, more importantly, seeking to transform the relationship of the citizen to work and welfare. 

In this episode we unpick how it goes from an idea that is incorporated into the UK Coalition Government’s priority list in 2010 to a £450m hot mess in 2013.

We also look at the unusual (and brave) decision to keep going.

Along the way, we cover:

• Whether radical transparency can be an answer to rescuing something when you’re in the middle of a hot mess?
• Whether we underestimate the importance of a ’holder of the vision’ in giant systems reform? 
• Whether articulating a north star for reform is hard because it makes clear what you are prioritising, and, equally importantly, what you’re not?
• The laughable idea of low hanging fruit

Referenced in the episode:

• Ed Milliband’s interview referencing PM Gordon Brown as an ideas factory, on Leading (The Rest is Politics)
• David Freud’s masterful memoir on his seminal role in Universal Credit, Clashing Agendas
• Institute for Government has held a number of great events on this, including one in 2016 and another in 2025
• Abul Rizvi’s appearance on Joe Walker podcast on the origins of Australia’s immigration system

Intro grab is Lord David Freud from Institute for Government 2016 event, From disaster to recovery: Learning the lessons of Universal Credit Clashing Agendas.

Outro grab is Tom Loosemore, former Deputy Director, Government Digital Services, from Institute for Government 2025 event, From disaster to completion? What Government can learn from the Universal Credit story? 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In a wide ranging discussion, Alison, Caroline and Danielle come together to discuss the gems from the Amanda Vanstone interview, which examined how power, responsibility and decision-making played out at the top of government during her two decades as a federal minister.

Vanstone's approach to being a minister - asking questions until understanding, visiting programs unannounced, and taking full responsibility for decisions - offers deep insights.

We also canvas some less expected topics, including:

• Is it a boomer quality to use ALL CAPS in inconveniently located thank you notes?
  • See the memoir of UK civil service head What Does Jeremy Think? by Suzanne Heywood
• Are the best questions the ones asked by kindergarteners 'Who? What? Why?'
  • See also Maria Katsonis LinkedIn post on The Art of Asking Smarter Questions
• Are people disinterested in history in policy making, or are we just pitching it wrong?
  • See also Abul Rizvi on Immigration Policy on The Joe Walker Podcast 
  • Memoir of Pamela Churchill Harriman Kingmaker by Sonia Purnell
• Was Amanda Vanstone falling in to the classic 'good girl' trope of delivering savings, rather than posturing about plans to deliver savings?
  • On why Australia struggles with a conversation about trade offs, see Judith Brett on How a Benthamite Political Culture Shaped Australia's Electoral System, on The Joe Walker Podcast
• Would we star in a documentary on tricky policy making? Or do we already have the essence of one in Utopia?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Former Senator Amanda Vanstone offers a masterclass in ministerial leadership, delivering sharp insights from her 21-year political career that are as relevant today as they were during her time in Prime Minister Howard's Cabinet. Cutting through bureaucratic excuses with remarkable clarity, she reveals how effective ministers must take full responsibility while developing practical strategies to uncover what's really happening within their departments.

Vanstone's approach to ministerial oversight was refreshingly direct—phoning junior staff who prepared briefs rather than accepting sanitized information from senior executives, making unannounced visits to government-funded programs, and consistently asking "how does that work?" until satisfied with the answers. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect," she notes, emphasizing that accountability requires hands-on leadership.

Her frank discussion of major reforms like the creation of Centrelink highlights how structural change requires both political courage and practical problem-solving. When departments maintained separate offices but required them to be within walking distance, she asked the obvious question: "Why not put them together?" This common-sense approach characterized her leadership across Employment, Education, Justice and Immigration portfolios.

What stands out most powerfully is Vanstone's perspective on ministerial responsibility. "That's why ministers sign on the bottom line. That's why you get paid," she asserts, rejecting excuses about inherited problems or departmental advice. Her experiences with Immigration Department failures—including the wrongful deportation of Australian citizen Vivian Alvarez—taught her that when you find one serious problem, you must look deeper: "When a mouse runs out of your fridge, you think that's a mouse. When the second one comes a week later, you bring the fridge out and clean it out."

Ready for straight talk about how government really works? Listen now to learn why Amanda Vanstone believes we urgently need another National Commission of Audit and how effective ministers must balance scrutiny with support to get the best from public servants.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Efficiency is in the news ... but what does it mean? How should public servants work on improving efficiency? Should we be focused on system reform, ending whole entitlements, or nibbling at the edges?

• How to know what kind of budget savings task you are in - deep restructuring or a cyclical contraction / expansion?
• Is front line v back office a helpful distinction?
• When are external reviews helpful, and when do they hurt?
• What is the role of tech in delivering savings?

Referenced in the episode

• Institute for Government's reflections on PM Starmer's Rewiring the State agenda
• Suzanne Heywood "What does Jeremy think? Jeremy Heywood and the Making of Modern Britain"
• John Halligan (with Jules Wills) "The Centrelink Experiment"
• BBC 'Denmark's postal service to stop delivering letters'
• The NDIS Review

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Surfing a wave of listener feelings about this topic, Danielle takes us through the experience of public service recruitment from the other side.

• Danielle and Alison argue about the merits of requiring 'in house' recruitment before externally advertising positions
• The role that conservative (perhaps inexpert??) local budget management plays in driving a cycle of vacancies and short term contracts
• How complex recruitment processes make the public service less and less like the public we serve
• Ezra Klein's podcast episode In This House, We're Angry When Government Fails
• The good, the bad and the ugly of external recruiters

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

The starter's gun has gone on Australia's national elections for 2025 and Parliament has been prorogued.

In this episode, former head of Cabinet Office and keeper of the Caretaker Conventions, Alison answers Caroline and Danielle's increasingly pointed questions, and we end with arguing about the importance of formatting.

Stay tuned to the end for some fabulous insider advice for managing caretaker period and elections as a public servant. 

This episode is dedicated to the significant birthday of Sandy Pitcher, a public service legend (read more about her here).

Intro grab courtesy of the Hon Nat Cook MP, Minister for Human Services (SA).

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Drawing on overwhelming feedback from our listeners, in this episode we unpack the experience of being recruited into the public sector (or ghosted along the way). 

Danielle takes us through

• What goes in Role Descriptions (hint: it shouldn't be slabs of legislation)
• The madness of defined requirements like 'driving' and 'interstate travel' (and whether Caroline's sister can really change a tyre)
• Alison's idea of an X factor style button for use in interviews when it's immediately clear this isn't working for anyone

We finish with a listener description of a mad recruitment process that ends with, you guessed, it, ghosting.

Thanks to Mary, our mug winner for this episode, for a great story!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

How did the abuse at Oakden remain hidden for so long? And what finally brought it to light?

In this episode we discuss:

• why families might not complain
• how small, isolated outposts can hide terrible things
• the importance of following up on things that don’t feel quite right.

Intro grab from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Lorraine Baff, whose father was a patient at Oakden. 

You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the Chief Psychiatrist report here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In light of this week's decision that the NACC will pursue investigations into six public officials, we thought we would repost this episode from December 2024 explaining why the NACC's original decision to take no further action needed to be revisited, with a little explainer up front on the latest news.

You can find out more about the NACC's announcement on 18th February 2025 here.

In this episode, we talk about where things are at, managing conflicts of interest, and whether corruption always involves brown paper bags.

For Rick Morton's reporting on this:

• Eight minutes outside: how the NACC failed on robodebt
• NACC dumped Gleeson over concerns for Coalition
• NACC integrity officer quits over integrity

Other recommended reads:

• Annabel Crabb's article on PM Albanese's response to the Qantas upgrades controversy
• Joe Aston's book The Chairman's Lounge

Opening grab features National Anti-Corruption Commissioner Paul Brereton, appearing before the NACC Parliamentary Joint Committee, 22 November 2024.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care.

• why six to nine months is realistic for restructures
• function before form and mapping real work
• aligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up design
• ministers and boards as informed stakeholders, not deciders
• the centralise versus localise accordion and trade‑offs
• middle managers as the glue of change
• naming unknowns, iteration, and review cycles
• working with unions
• plumbing and HR sequencing that stalls programs
• after ‘go‑live’ habits, SOPs, and consistent standards
• what’s up for grabs versus non‑negotiable boundaries
• logistics people actually care about: seats, commutes, WFH.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

For over a decade, the state government vacillated about whether or not to privatise the Oakden Older Persons Mental Health Facility.

Once the 2007 accreditation crisis had passed, however, it never reached the top of the ‘to do’ list. Meanwhile, investment in facilities and staffing were endlessly postponed pending a decision. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• the dangers of decay while waiting for strategic directions
• whether an organisation is ever really too broke to buy a $15 piece of equipment;
• some tactics for unsticking things.

We also discuss an excellent listener question from a manager in social services policy who is thinking of getting out.

Intro and outro grabs from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Alma Krecu and Lorraine Baff, whose fathers were patients at Oakden. 

You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the Chief Psychiatrist report here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

We return for 2025 with a series on the Oakden Older Persons Mental Health Facility, an SA Government run facility whose scandalous conditions and institutionalised elder abuse were exposed in 2017, prompting (among other things) a Commonwealth Royal Commission. 

In this episode, we unpack a missed opportunity in 2007 to move Oakden from a mid-twentieth century asylum to a modern aged care facility, when the facility failed Commonwealth accreditation standards.

• Why is it so easy for executives to mobilise resources in a crisis, but so hard for managers to redress chronic under resourcing?
• How do you make sure you keep your eye on the long-term solution when the spot light is on?

Intro and outro grabs from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Carla Baron, the aged care consultant who quit in 2007 because she didn’t think management wanted to change. 

You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the Chief Psychiatrist report here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

What do Secretaries really think when junior staff ask for career advice? Why are silos so impermeable? And should Christmas really be cancelled? Join Danielle and Caroline as they take Mike through listener questions.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Mike Kaiser, recently departed head of the Queensland Public Service, joins us to chat about the interface between political offices and the public service, lessons from robodebt, why delivery is everything in government and the secret of leadership. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Danielle unpacks the recently released APS State of the Service, with a look over our should at where we’ve come from - from the 1976 Coombs Royal Commission on Australian Government Administration, to the 2019 Thodey Review of the APS. 

How are women, First Nations and people with disability going in the APS? What about class?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Keeping track of the National Anti-Corruption Commission and Robodebt is tricky - first there's no investigation, then there's some kind of review, then there's a search for an eminent person....

In this episode, we talk about where things are at, managing conflicts of interest, and whether corruption always involves brown paper bags.

For Rick Morton's reporting on this:

• Eight minutes outside: how the NACC failed on robodebt
• NACC dumped Gleeson over concerns for Coalition
• NACC integrity officer quits over integrity

Other recommended reads:

• Annabel Crabb's article on PM Albanese's response to the Qantas upgrades controversy
• Joe Aston's book The Chairman's Lounge

Opening grab features National Anti-Corruption Commissioner Paul Brereton, appearing before the NACC Parliamentary Joint Committee, 22 November 2024.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Post Office’s internal inquiries never got to the bottom of the situation. Here we unpack how to choose an investigator, getting the information to the person, and what do with a report.

Opening grab from Sir Anthony Hooper, independent chair of Horizon mediation scheme.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Paula Vennels, former Post Office Limited Chief Executive.

Subsequent grab Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Post Office leadership commissioned at least 6 different investigations of varying degrees of independence and rigor into complaints about Horizon after 2010. And yet none of them got to the truth. In the next two episodes, we unpack what not to do when setting up inquiries and investigations.

Opening grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.

Final grab from Mr Beer KC and Rod Ismay, Former Post Office Limited, Head of Product and Branch Accounting.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Another great round of questions, thanks!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Thanks for the questions folks!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself. 

Some of the ideas covered:

• Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periods
• Most people dislike uncertainty rather than change itself
• Mission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency direction
• Medium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimated and underfunded
• The "don't be a dickhead rule" isn't enough—change management is genuinely difficult
• Leaders should listen carefully to "change resistors" who may be flagging legitimate risks
• Administrative foundations must be solid before change begins (position descriptions, contracts, etc.)
• Different professional groups (lawyers, scientists, policy officers) respond differently to change
• Maintaining a stable core while being honest about what's changing helps navigate transitions.

Referenced in this episode:

• If Books Could Kill pod on Who Moved My Cheese?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

The Australian Public Service Commission has released the findings of its Centralised Code of Conduct Inquiry into Robodebt.

Outro grab from The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 10.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this episode, we look at why Post Office kept prosecuting Sub Post Masters through the lens of Dan Davies' analysis in his new book The Unaccountability Machine.

Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Alisdair Cameron, CFO and former interim CE of Post Office Ltd.

Subsequent grab from Mr Blake KC (Counsel Assisting) and Graham Brander, former Post Office Investigator.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Anne Chambers, former Fujitsu Engineer Third Line Support.

Final grab from Mr Blake KC and Paul Inwood, former Post Office Limited Contract Manager.

For thorough and detailed reporting of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

A massive power imbalance, everyone doing the narrowest version of their jobs, and an overriding culture that assumed postmasters were thieves. These are just some of the ways Post Office ended up prosecuting postmasters for shortfalls that existed only on the computer.

Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Rob Wilson, former Head of the Royal Mail Group Criminal Law Team.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Helen Rose, former Post Office / Royal Mail Group Auditor.

Final grab from Andrew Wise, former Advisor in the Network Business Support Centre, Post Office.

For thorough and detailed reporting of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

• The pros and cons of bringing all service delivery together in a single agency 
• The valuing of operational expertise v policy leadership
• The role of portfolio budget practices in driving Robodebt
• Cultures of challenge and diversity of thought
• The future of public service reform.

• 2019 Thodey Review of Australian Public Service
• 1976 Coombs Royal Commission on Australian Government Administration

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

• The ‘Barilaro Report’: NSW DPC Investigation into the Appointment of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner to the Americas
• Blair Comley, Cth Secretary Health and Ageing, speech to IPAA (14 March 2024)

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business?

How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace?

What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny?

In this final episode of the Essendon mini-series, we think about what this footy doping scandal can tell us about the challenges of being a modern regulator.

Intro grab is then Chief Executive of the AFL, Andrew Demetriou, at the press conference releasing the Australian Crime Commission report on 7 February, 2013.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators.

In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead.

But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do Cronulla players end up suspended for six matches, while Essendon players get two years?

Intro grab is Richard Eccles, former Deputy Secretary Department for Regional Australia, Local Government, Arts and Sports.

Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray, former Essendon player.

Both from the Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015.

In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013.

In this episode, we talk about what happened in Essendon itself. The dangers of charismatic new leaders, new brooms through an organisation, and a failure to take controls and risk management seriously.

Referenced in this episode:

•  Lindsay Tanner ‘Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal’
• The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day
• Ziggy Switkowski report into failures of governance at Essendon Football Club
• Dr Bruce Reid letter to Essendon Football Club about his concerns about the supplement regime

Intro grab is Lindsay Tanner, Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal.

Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray and Emma Murray, The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO).

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.

The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality oversight?

Most revealing is the discussion about regulatory independence versus political interference. While statutory independence is crucial for regulatory integrity, our panelists acknowledge the reality that regulators remain part of government—subject to ministerial directions, government resourcing decisions, and public sector constraints.

This creates a challenging balance that every regulator must navigate daily.

Alison leaves with the best advice for all emerging regulators - find your people, people who you can trust and you can talk with and test your thinking.

Referenced in this episode:

• James Shipton The Regulatory State: Faults, Flaws and False Assumptions
• NRCoP 2025 National Conference Regulation 2025 to 2050: Disruption, Change and Continuity 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later.

We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout.

Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on.

• ANAO Report on Accuracy and Timeliness of Welfare Payments (2023)
• The UK Covid Inquiry Podcast

Intro grab from Sue Vardon AO Bonus Episode.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides.

In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then removed key guard rails that might have prevented false prosecutions.


Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Kathryn Parker (former Post Office training), 13 January 2023.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Susan Harding (former Post office Business Process Architect), 22 February 2023.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own.

In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going.

We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecutions - are concerned.

Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Stuart Sweetman (former Managing Director of Post Office Counters Limited), 17 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Mr Jeremy Folkes (former Infrastructure Assurance Team Leader, Horizon Programme, Post Office Counters Ltd) and Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting),  17 November 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?

And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)

In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).

Among other things, we talk about the role of first ministers and Cabinet in resolving disagreements between portfolios with genuinely different interests; the impossibility of outsourcing political risk; and the challenge of working out the truth when everyone you speak to has an agenda.

• Harriet Harman, Minister for Social Services, February 1998 letter to PM Blair can be found here.
• Geoff Mulgan's December 1998 minute to PM Blair can be found here, and his reflections after appearing at the Inquiry can be found on his blog here.

Opening grab from Lord Alistair Darling, former Chief Secretary of Treasury, 29 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Sir Geoffrey Mulgan, former civil servant No. 10 Downing St, 2 December 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco.

Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar?

• Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office Trial
• Alison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think Again
• On the 'objective review' conducted by the Post Office in 2010 to make the strongest case as to why Horizon should be trusted, see, Nick Wallis Rod Ismay: The Useful Idiot
• Tony Moore 'Sorry' not such a hard work for Peter Beattie to say  
• Sylvan Baker, Mr Bates vs The Post Office: why docudramas have the power to inspire real social and political change
• Channel 7 has secured the Australian rights to Mr Bates v Post Office.

Intro grab features Paula Vennells, Chief Executive of Post Office, appearing before a Parliamentary Select Committee in 2015.
Outro grab features Peter Beattie apologising for excluding athletes from the Commonwealth Games closing ceremony in 2018.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same.

She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink.

Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'customer' and a 'recipient', the snap back of bureaucratic and hierarchical cultures, the value of operational experience and much more.

Grab at around 1 hr 6 min is Commissioner Holmes and Kathryn Campbell AO CSC and Bar, November 11 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Sue Vardon AO has 23 years of experience as a public sector Chief Executive, including CE of the Office of Public Sector Reform, the Public Service Commissioner and the CE of the Department for Correctional Services in South Australia. She was inaugural CE of Centrelink in 1997, a position she held until 2004.  She finished her full-time public service career as CE of the South Australian Department for Families and Communities. She was the first Telstra Businesswoman of the Year.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.

Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.

The discussion covers
- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly
- risk as a frame for empowering people to push unwelcome information up
- the challenges with record keeping for institutional continuity, including the lost art of capturing decisions

Referenced in the episode:
- The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, on building safety culture
- The Squid Hunter by David Grann (Alison's giant squid article)

Intro and further grabs from our special bonus episode interview with Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe Law School.
Later grabs from: Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022, and Ms Serena Wilson and Mr Justin Greggery KC, 9 November 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview,  Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt.

*This  was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.*

Some references from the interview include:

• Frank Kafka Before the Law
• Pamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)
• Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, discrimination and the discourse of colonialism (2001)
• Evidence from Michael Kerr-Brown re ATO being well positioned to push back against the DHS request, transcript from 12 December 2022 p. 1615
• Nick Gill, Nothing Personal? Geographies of Governing and Activism in the British Asylum System (2015)
• Darren O'Donovan  Victims now know they were right about robodebt all along at The Conversation

Grabs included are:

• Angus Scott KC, Louise Macleod (Ombudsman) and Commissioner Holmes, 8 March
• Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022
• Commissioner Holmes and Michael Kerr-Brown (ATO), 12 December 2022
• Tim Ffrench (DHS), 22 February 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along.

Ultimately, the listeners win.

References from the episode include:

• If Books Could Kill podcast on Nudge
• Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Nudge: Improving decisions about health, wealth and happiness (2009).
• On the replicability crisis in behavioural economics, see Gideon Lewis-Kraus 'They studied dishonesty. Was their work a lie?' New Yorker. 

The intro grab features Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration.

Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making.

He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised expertise in their portfolio areas, arguing instead that their authority comes from democratic mandate and demonstrated competence rather than academic credentials.

The discussion offers a masterclass in policy implementation, particularly during times of crisis.

Koutsantonis shares the stark reality of South Australia's 2016 energy blackout, where conventional thinking had to be abandoned for bold action. "It was Jay and I just saying 'I don't care what you think,'" he recalls of overriding resistant public servants to implement transformative energy solutions. This candid account reveals how decisive leadership can break through entrenched bureaucratic thinking when circumstances demand it.

Public servants will find particular value in Koutsantonis's insights on ministerial briefings. Despite modern trends toward abbreviated formats, he staunchly defends detailed written briefings: "If ministers aren't reading past the first three lines, it's to their detriment." His perspective offers reassurance that thorough policy work remains essential to good governance.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower.

She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends.

Meanwhile, Alison gives another excellent life hack - this time about taking work emails off your phone on leave.

As promised in the episode, here is Commissioner Holmes' finding about what happened to the requested legal advice: "The Commission finds that Ms Campbell instructed DHS officers to cease the process of responding to Mr Jackson’s request for advice, motivated by a concern that the unlawfulness of the Scheme might be exposed to the Ombudsman in the course of its investigation." (see page 189)

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Commissioner Holmes and Ms Annette Musolino, 30 January 2023.

Later grab features Mr Derek Greggery KC and Ms Kathryn Campbell, 7 March 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In September 2014, at the very moment DHS invents Robodebt, the APS receives a frank assessment of its limitations in the form of the Final Report Home Insulation Program Royal Commission.

In this episode, a review of the 'pink batts' Royal Commission report shows the key failings that recur.

Why is it so hard as a public servant to say 'we can't do this in the time allowed?'

How should generalists respond when asked to engage in technical subject matter that we don't understand?

And once again, how do we ensure collegiality doesn't lead to group think and unwillingness to raise risks?

You can find the Final Report of the Home Insulation Program Royal Commission here, and the comments about public servant testimony on page 13.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Mr Chris Birrer and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 7 November 2023. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of  algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works.

We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation.

We finish up by thinking about how AI black box decision making may interact with a historic trend of government interventions that focus on individual entitlement, rather than community needs.

You can find more information about the legal landscape of automated decision making in Anna Huggins (2021) "Addressing Disconnection: Automated decision-making, administrative law and regulatory reform".

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

*The intro grab this week is an AI called Russell reading  an extract from Minister Shorten's 25 July 2023 speech at the AFR Government Summit. While an AI voice is on theme, if anyone has access to an actual recording of the speech, we will happily put that up instead. Just email us.*

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies?
 
 In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail.

You can find Alison's homework reading by former Chief Justice French here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Robodebt victim, Rosemary Gay, and Counsel Assisting Douglas Freeburn.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!