Explore every episode of the podcast The Vertical Space

In this episode we speak with Jessica Brightman, Policy & Standards Branch Manager in the UAS & Advanced Technologies Division of the FAA’s Office of Advanced Aviation Technologies, recorded while the final Part 108 BVLOS rule sits in White House review. Most of the conversation was about how the US built a live UTM system without a final rule. Eleven FAA-accepted services now operate across roughly ten states, and from January through September 2026 they deconflicted more than 2.2 million BVLOS flights. Jessica argues the model scales because it requires only the services an operation’s risk calls for.

From there we cover her view that every aircraft should be electronically conspicuous, and how that shapes Part 108’s right-of-way construct, one of the proposal’s most debated parts. We also get into the new priority scheme for lifesaving missions, what Part 108 permits mean for small operators, and why tying UTM, air taxi services and ATC together is still an open standards problem. Jessica also makes an interesting argument about operational intents and why some operators have reserved far more airspace than they need.

In this episode we speak with Anders Forslund, founder and CEO of Heart Aerospace, which is building the ES-30, a clean-sheet 30-seat hybrid-electric regional airliner. We recorded two days after Heart flew its X1 demonstrator at Plattsburgh, the largest battery-electric aircraft flown to date, and about a year after the company closed its Swedish operations and consolidated in Los Angeles. Most of the conversation was about whether electrification changes regional economics enough to bring back a market that has been shrinking for forty years. The first flight used 85 kWh, roughly $5 of electricity, and Anders walks through how that scales to a 125 mile leg, why battery amortization is the bigger line item than the energy itself, and why 40% cheaper than a comparable ATR is the threshold where a stagnant market starts growing again.

From there we cover what X1 retires and what waits for the pre-production aircraft in 2028, how sensitive the 40% is to jet fuel and cycle life, who funds megawatt charging at regional airports, and what moving from Gothenburg cost in schedule and continuity. Anders walks through the certification plan, the twenty or so requirements unique to this airframe out of roughly 3,000, the not-for-credit testing philosophy he took from SpaceX, and the billion dollars to certification. There is more to come on the independent hybrid, which he was visibly biting his tongue about. Anders also makes an interesting argument about the lost generation, engineers in their forties who have never worked a clean-sheet program, and why reps rather than incumbency are what preserve the ability to build airplanes.

In this episode we speak with Marc Allen, CEO of Electra.aero, which builds the EL9, a nine-passenger hybrid-electric aircraft that takes off and lands in roughly 150 feet using blown lift and distributed electric propulsion. Marc came from Boeing, where he was chief strategy officer and chaired Wisk, and took the CEO seat from founder John Langford in 2024. Most of the conversation was about whether a fixed-wing airplane can really get into helicopter-sized spaces while keeping the cost and reliability of a conventional airplane. Because the EL9 takes off on a wing at a thrust-to-weight ratio near 0.6 rather than lifting straight up, it keeps the payload and range that vertical-lift aircraft give away, at a fraction of their cost.

We also get into the harder questions underneath that case. The EL9 flies its approach below its power-off stall speed, which is close to the aerodynamic definition of powered lift, so we spend time on how it certifies as a conventional airplane under Part 23. We talk about how Electra sequences its three markets, with defense as the near-term launchpad ahead of commercial replacement and then direct aviation, and where the fly-by-wire and blown-lift technology still has to prove itself. Marc is candid throughout about what the aircraft is built to do and what it is not, and about how much rides on getting the EL9 from a flying prototype to a certified product.

In this episode we speak with Andrew Clare, CEO of Elroy Air, which builds the Chaparral, an autonomous hybrid-electric VTOL that hauls cargo in detachable pods for middle-mile commercial and defense logistics. Elroy is a 10-year-old company built on three then-unpopular bets: cargo over passengers, hybrid-electric over pure battery, and autonomous over piloted. Andrew, formerly CTO of Nuro, joined to turn that foundation into a scaled business, and the company has since demonstrated its transition flight, signed a US manufacturing deal with Kratos and a $200 million JV with Barq in the UAE, won a slot in the White House eVTOL Integration Pilot Program, and announced plans to go public near a billion-dollar valuation.

Most of the conversation was about what it takes to get from a working aircraft to a deployed logistics system, and why Andrew believes autonomous cargo scales well before passenger aviation. He argues one pod-based platform can serve a FedEx milk run, an Army resupply, and an ISR mission, that hybrid-electric is the only way to get useful payload and range without field charging infrastructure, and that defense demand is surging because contested logistics has become a requirement. We pushed on why a clean-sheet VTOL beats autonomy bolted onto a proven Caravan, how the automotive data-flywheel intuition transfers to a domain with far fewer cycles, and where the moat sits once hybrid-electric and autonomy are no longer contrarian. Andrew was most candid about the road ahead, from scaling production to hardening the aircraft for contested, GPS-denied operations alongside the Army.

In this episode we speak with Lauren Flanagan, CEO of Sesame Solar, which builds mobile nanogrids. The product is a self-contained unit that generates its own power from solar, batteries, and stored hydrogen, set up by one person in fifteen minutes. The company started in emergency response and extreme weather, and has moved increasingly into defense. The newer focus, and the one we spent most of the episode on, is using these nanogrids to refuel hydrogen drones in the field.

Most of the conversation was about whether that case holds up. Lauren's argument is that contested logistics have changed the math: fuel at the edge can run a thousand dollars a gallon all-in, the resupply convoy is a target, and the real cost is the lives spent guarding it, so making power where you stand becomes a strategic question rather than an efficiency one. We pushed on the parts that are harder to defend, the energy losses on the hydrogen path versus batteries, how thick the market for long-endurance hydrogen-powered flight actually is, and how you get from a fifty-day reserve to a six-month operational promise that's still backed by simulation rather than field data. Lauren was candid about what's proven and what isn't, and about which problems are physics and which are just adoption friction.

Libby Bahat returns to The Vertical Space. Last time we talked to him about building an airspace for drones in peacetime. This time he's the regulator who decides whether a 777 full of people lands in a country under missile fire. As Head of the Aerial Infrastructure Department at the Israel Civil Aviation Authority, Libby is one of a small number of people anywhere who has had to build a quantitative framework, debris models, interception zones, penetration probabilities, that lets a civil aviation authority make its own war risk call. Most regulators don't have to do this. Israel does, and Libby is the guy.

We spent most of the conversation not on the war but on the judgment underneath it: where the numbers actually come from, how wide the error bars really are, the levers a CAA actually controls, the friendly-fire failure mode etc. Libby was honest about what he wishes he had ("I wish I had a criteria, like an engineer, very specific numbers") and about what he doesn't get to have. It's a rare look at how a serious regulator reasons when the only data point that would prove him wrong is the one he's organized his entire career to never see.

We sat down with Mike Stengel of AeroDynamic Advisory to discuss what the US-Iran conflict is doing to aviation. The Middle East moves about 20% of global crude, and with the Strait of Hormuz closed and Gulf refining capacity damaged, jet fuel stocks in Asia-Pacific and Europe are drawing down while crack spreads widen in ways hedging contracts don't cover. Mike explains why US shale isn't the easy substitute, why Spirit just liquidated and JetBlue looks fragile, and why Delta's once-mocked Monroe refinery acquisition suddenly looks prescient.

The bigger question we get into is whether this is a temporary pricing event or a more permanent regime change? For the first time in decades, commercial, military, and business aviation are all riding supply-constrained tailwinds at once, but the industry spent 30 years optimizing for cheap energy and stable airspace. We dig into what fragility looks like when those assumptions break, aging fleets, narrowing corridors between unusable Middle East and Russian airspace, what the conflict is doing for SAF, and where the next contrarian bet might come from.

Admiral Phil Kenul spent decades flying NOAA aircraft into some of the most dangerous weather on earth, including multiple seasons as a P-3 Orion hurricane hunter, before transitioning into the world of UAS standards, where he now serves as Vice Chair of ASTM Committee F38. That path gives him a perspective on unmanned aviation that most people in the industry don't have. He's been the guy in the cockpit, the program manager trying to replace the cockpit with a Global Hawk, and now the person writing the standards that determine whether any of this scales commercially.

His take on the industry is refreshing. Technology, he argues, is no longer what's holding the drone industry back. Operations, regulatory approvals, and integration with legacy airspace systems are. He sees Part 108 as a genuine inflection point, one that will finally let operators fly by regulations and industry consensus standards rather than one-off waivers. But he's equally clear that getting there will take longer and cost more than most people expect, and that when the dust settles, success will go to the best operators, not the best aircraft.

In this episode we sit down with Alex List, CEO and founder of FlyShirley, a startup building an AI copilot for the cockpit. Alex walks through what AI in aviation actually looks like today: the practical reality of a ground-based language model accessed via iPad helping pilots handle strategic, non-time-critical tasks like looking up service bulletins mid-flight, transcribing ATC clearances, finding alternates, and synthesizing information that would otherwise require a pilot to dig through a POH while managing weather and workload. He's candid about where the technology still falls short and articulates a clear architectural thesis: frontier intelligence lives on the ground, state management lives on the device, and a 56-kilobit connection is all you need in between.

The conversation broadens into the harder questions facing anyone building in this space: how do you design for pilot augmentation without creating dependency? How do you handle liability for an advisory system that is occasionally wrong? And how do you build a defensible business in a market that is, honestly, pretty small? Alex is refreshingly honest about the GA market math and where the real opportunity lies. The hosts bring their own investor and operator lens to the discussion, flagging the classic failure modes of aviation startups.

In this episode we reconnect with Robert Rose, CEO of Reliable Robotics, fresh off his testimony before Congress on the state of advanced air mobility. Robert shares what most people misunderstand about FAA certification, i.e. that the regulator isn't there to coach you through it, they're just calling balls and strikes. We explore why Reliable has spent eight years building autonomous systems within existing regulations rather than waiting for new rules, how they've convinced the FAA that zero-visibility automated landing standards can scale from wide-body jets down to Cessna Caravans, and why the "cargo first" narrative that dominates autonomy discussions is largely a regulatory myth.

We also dig into Reliable's new Pentagon contract to deploy autonomous cargo aircraft for contested logistics in the Indo-Pacific, what the military calls building "conveyor belts in the sky." Robert explains why military logistics actually demands commercial-grade safety in ways most people don't appreciate, how their solid-state radar technology became an unexpected multibillion-dollar opportunity for existing airlines, and what changed at the FAA after years of low morale and congressional scrutiny. It's a grounded, technically rigorous conversation about what it actually takes to certify autonomy, why operational risk assessments don't work for aircraft above a certain weight class, and how Reliable is grinding through hundreds of compliance submissions to prove that autonomy isn't some distant dream but it's ready now.

In this episode we sit down with Koen De Vos, Secretary General of GUTMA, to unpack why U-Space still feels more aspirational than operational, and what aviation can learn from industries that have at least partially managed to digitize at scale. Drawing on parallels with the automotive sector, Koen explores how green technologies, automation, and system-level thinking could, and should, reshape aviation if the institutional and political pieces ever align.

We dive into why U-Space has not meaningfully materialized in Europe yet, the evolving role of regulators like EASA, and how European and US approaches to UTM diverge in both philosophy and execution. Koen also shares his perspective on air risk mitigation, whether U-Space is being used as a safety crutch, and perhaps most provocatively, who is actually willing to pay for UTM and why many business cases quietly fall apart. A clear-eyed conversation about political will, practical constraints, and what UTM might look like if we were brave enough to start from scratch.

In this episode, we sit down with Ben Ivers (Boeing’s Director of Emerging Technologies & Regulatory Strategy) to unpack a deceptively simple idea: airspace modernization isn’t optional anymore and the tech to enable “automated flight rules” (AFR) is largely ready today. Ben argues the hard part isn’t the technology, but introducing a new flight mode alongside VFR and IFR that can scale drones, eVTOLs, and future autonomous operations without turning the sky into sanitized corridors reserved for “new entrants.” He explains why Boeing is forced to think in decades and why action now matters if modernization isn’t to remain perpetually out of reach.

We get practical on what AFR actually means: less “AI making decisions,” more machine-guided coordination built on trusted data exchange and automated conflict management. Ben connects AFR to UTM/U-space (“crawl, walk, run”), walks through “before vs after” scenarios across GA, airlines, drones, and urban air mobility, and pinpoints the real bottlenecks, i.e. reliable communications, latency, surveillance, micro-weather, and certified digital services. We close on where value may accrue in a digitized airspace: new third-party services, higher throughput, and an “additive” roadmap that grows the aviation ecosystem rather than excluding parts of it.

Autonomy may scale in agriculture long before it does in defense or UAM, and today’s guest makes a compelling case why. We speak with Edward Barraclough, founder and CEO of Drone-Hand, about applying autonomous drones and on-device AI to the realities of livestock operations across Australia, New Zealand, North America, and beyond.

Edward explains why ranching is the perfect proving ground for autonomy: massive land areas, urgent labor shortages, permissive operating environments, and ROI that’s measured in days - not years. We explore how drones are already replacing helicopters on million-acre cattle stations, why biological data creates one of the deepest moats in autonomy, the role of trust and repeatability for producers, and how CASA’s regulatory evolution compares to FAA and EASA. It’s a rare look at autonomy where economics, biology, and geography collide.

In this episode, Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian breaks down what truly differentiates a great airline: people and culture. Ed shares why “take care of your people first” isn’t a slogan (it’s Delta’s operating system!) and how that shows up in reliability, premium customer experience, and everyday leadership. We get a candid look at running a 100,000-person, 5,000-flights-a-day operation; the metrics he checks first (on-time arrivals and cash); and why accessibility and listening are his non-negotiables as a leader.

We also dive into Delta’s broader vision: a connected, premium travel ecosystem that spans free fast Wi-Fi and new entertainment partnerships to deeper integrations with Uber, Wheels Up and, soon, eVTOL links with Joby. Ed frames AI as “augmented intelligence” that empowers frontline teams, outlines how Delta thinks about fortress balance sheets and long-cycle bets, and makes the case that air travel isn’t a commodity but an experience people will choose and pay for. Founders will appreciate his clear wishlist of problems to solve in ops efficiency, maintenance, and crew utilization, and his invitation to bring real solutions, not just ideas.

Adam Woodworth, CEO of Wing (Alphabet’s drone delivery company), joins us to talk about making delivery ubiquitous and why drones should be an equal player alongside other delivery methods. Adam argues we’ve already passed the “risk peak” for UAS integration: the industry now has the operational data to validate safety targets, and the safest path is to fly more because drone trips displace riskier car trips. He traces Wing’s journey from Google X to Part 135 air carrier, the shift from “drone company” to “delivery company,” and what’s changed in the last 18 months as regulatory processes became predictable enough to plan and scale.

We go inside Wing’s growth flywheel in Dallas: ~20 locations, 100k+ deliveries last quarter, and days approaching 2,000 orders. Plus partnerships with DoorDash and Walmart, expansion to Charlotte and new metros, and lessons from Australia and the UK (including hospital logistics). Adam shares why noise complaints dropped after design and routing changes, how one pilot can now oversee dozens of aircraft, and what Part 108 should fix to keep progress moving. We close on the big claim: within a decade, drone delivery can handle the majority of last-mile demand.

Welcome to episode 101 of The Vertical Space. In this conversation, we sit down with Ryan Gury, Co-founder and CEO of Performance Drone Works (PDW). Ryan argues that “commercial is eating aerospace,” and shows why the center of gravity has shifted from exquisite programs to fast iteration, modular hardware, and drones treated as munitions. We dig into lessons from Ukraine, why precision from a foxhole beats posture from a ridge line and what “velocity + iteration” really means for design, manufacturing, and doctrine.

We also unpack the RF war: proliferated jamming, fiber-tethered ops, directional links and why legacy radio assumptions break down at the edge. Ryan contrasts automation vs. true autonomy, swarming myths vs. realities, and the coming wave of sleeper robotics. He shares PDW’s playbook: veteran-led product development, the C100 mothership, and building to BOM and scale. Plus a frank take on how procurement and a DoD “marketplace” must evolve. 

In this 100th episode, we sit down with Chris Hewlett, former Navy Commander and Director of Project Ultra, for a candid conversation about the realities of UAS integration. Chris challenges the industry’s rush toward community-based traffic management and questions whether UTM, as commonly envisioned, can ever deliver safe and scalable integration. He argues instead that the Department of Defense, through rigorous test, evaluation, and rapid operational deployment, will set the standard for comprehensive UAS integration - a framework that will ultimately spill over into commercial use.

We cover the lessons from Project Ultra on verification, validation, and operational test and evaluation (OT&E) of unmanned systems, FAA’s Part 108, and why shortcuts and theory aren’t enough for safe airspace integration.

In this episode, we welcome back Jia Xu, CEO of SkyGrid, to discuss the future of autonomy and shared airspace. SkyGrid is building a trusted airspace and operational integration platform to enable safe, secure, and efficient autonomous flight.

Jia highlights where the main bottlenecks and complexities exist across autonomy, advanced air mobility, and shared airspace, and how the industry can move forward. We cover regulatory frameworks such as Part 108 and Part 146, the role of data services, and how SkyGrid is positioning its technology and products to help enable safer and more efficient aviation.

Ryan Graves is a former U.S. Navy F/A-18F pilot and the first active-duty pilot to publicly report regular UAP sightings. In this episode, we explore what these encounters reveal about gaps in our airspace sensing and safety infrastructure, and where the opportunities lie for better detection, data analysis, and aerospace innovation. Ryan also shares insights from his work at Americans for Safe Aerospace and AIAA, where he’s helping bring scientific rigor and policy attention to a long-overlooked issue.

In this episode we’re joined by Julie Garland, CEO of Avtrain, for a deep dive into the current state of the drone industry and regulation across Europe. Julie shares her perspective on why societal acceptance is just as critical as regulatory approval. We explore how operators like Manna are working to normalize drone activity and influence regulations, and why simplifying regulatory frameworks, including the SORA process, is essential to enable broader adoption of drone operations.

The conversation also sheds light on the limited number of authorized SAIL III operations across EASA member states and the challenges operators face in meeting technical validation requirements, often by building their own aircraft. Julie walks us through promising commercial use cases, from consumer delivery to infrastructure inspection to airport operations, and outlines how digitization and standardization could unlock more scalable, efficient drone deployments. 

In this episode, Chad Sweet, co-founder and CEO of ModalAI, joins us to explore the evolving drone landscape and what’s driving the next wave of innovation. Chad shares his perspective on the rising importance of FPV (first-person view) technology - especially in military and public safety applications - and why user experience, including ease of flight and high-quality video streaming, will be a key competitive edge going forward.

We also dive into ModalAI’s strategic partnership with Qualcomm and the company’s focus on developing NDAA-compliant, AI-powered components that enable autonomy and advanced perception in small UAS. Chad offers insight into ModalAI’s product development philosophy and how the drone industry has matured over the past decade.

Drone swarms are no longer science fiction - they're becoming one of the most disruptive technologies on the modern battlefield. In this episode, we speak with Serhii Kupriienko, founder and CEO of Swarmer, a Ukrainian startup building autonomous swarming capabilities for drones operating in the harshest conditions: GPS-denied, communications-jammed, and under fire.

We dive deep into how drone warfare has evolved in Ukraine, the maturation - and limitations - of FPV drone tech, and what true “swarming” really means. Serhii shares lessons from the frontlines of defense innovation, explains why adoption of new technologies can be both urgent and constrained, and lays out the challenges of building autonomous, coordinated robotic systems in real-world environments. We also touch on counter-UAS and the broader Ukrainian startup ecosystem. 

In this episode, we welcome back Brandon Suarez from Reliable Robotics, more than three years after his first appearance. Brandon leads the development of technical standards and global aviation policy, and this return visit offers a valuable perspective on how the aviation industry has evolved, and in some ways, diverged from expectations. The conversation centers on the implementation of automation in aviation and its operational and safety benefits, especially for general aviation. Brandon makes a compelling case that improving safety isn’t just a benefit of automation, it’s a prerequisite for aviation growth. He addresses persistent issues like the stagnant GA safety record and explains why relying solely on the pilot is no longer sufficient.

The episode dives deep into topics such as the future of digital flight decks, the lessons learned from the rollout of ADS-B, and how these inform the potential deployment of ACAS-X. Brandon also touches on the transformative role of connectivity solutions like Starlink and highlights the urgent need for leadership and vision in U.S. aviation policy. From radically different aircraft architectures to third-party service providers, this episode is packed with thoughtful insights.

In this episode we sit down with Dr. Joey Rios, Chief Technologist for the Aviation Systems Division at NASA Ames Research Center, for a discussion on the evolution of Unmanned Aircraft Systems Traffic Management (UTM). Joey takes us through the early days of UTM development, reflecting on the foundational principles, the initial use cases, and how the vision has evolved over time. We dive deep into the challenges of airspace design, the reasoning behind the U.S. federated model, and how it compares to other global approaches. Joey also shares his perspective on current operations, including the Dallas Operational Evaluation site and how safe BVLOS operations at scale might evolve within and outside of the Mode C veil.  

Welcome back to The Vertical Space for our second conversation with Richard Aboulafia, an insightful voice on all things aerospace and defense.  This episode dives deeper than ever into the aerospace and defense supply chain: globalization, vulnerabilities, titanium, rare earth elements, and why Tier 1 integrators may be losing their place in the industry. 

We explore how shifting geopolitics, material dependencies, and evolving national strategies are redrawing the map of the aerospace and defense industrial base. Richard breaks down why Europe is accelerating its push for industrial sovereignty, how China’s role in rare earths and Russia's role in titanium are creating ripple effects, and what the decline of Tier 1 integrators means for the rest of the industry. We also unpack the promise of Collaborative Combat Aircraft, new defense spending priorities, and ATC modernization. This is a wide-ranging and nuanced discussion on the forces disrupting aerospace as we know it, and where the opportunities lie in the new aerospace order.

In this episode, we sit down with George Mattson, CEO of Wheels Up, for a conversation about leading one of the most recognized brands in private aviation. George shares his perspective on building Wheels Up into an aviation solutions company and what sets their model apart in a competitive industry. With his background on the board of Delta Airlines, he offers a unique lens on integrating commercial and private aviation to create a seamless customer experience.

We explore the current landscape of private aviation, its opportunities, headwinds, and the strategic thinking behind Wheels Up’s direction. George also opens up about the realities of being a CEO in aviation: what a typical day looks like, how his expectations have evolved, and what leadership means in this fast-moving space. The conversation wraps with his outlook on the future of aviation, including thoughts on advanced air mobility and where innovation is headed.

In this episode we sit down with Chris Gentile, General Manager for Tactical Autonomy at Merlin, for an in-depth look at the evolving role of autonomy in defense. Chris outlines the value proposition of autonomy as a tool, not a standalone product, and discusses the principles of a modular, hybrid, and hierarchical architecture design in building robust autonomous systems. We explore how recent milestones in trusted autonomy are reshaping military strategy and capability, and how the technology must evolve alongside certification requirements and operational realities.

Chris also shares his personal journey into the field and offers a nuanced perspective on current use cases driving demand for autonomy. The conversation also touches on the cultural and organizational barriers to adoption, two autonomy schools of thought, air superiority in the age of autonomy, best practices for developing autonomous systems, visual language models, data challenges and startup opportunities.

Welcome back to a conversation with Christian Ramsey, Chief Commercial Officer of uAvionix. Christian last joined us in 2022, and now, almost three years later, we revisit his predictions to see what played out as expected, and what didn’t.

We kick things off with Remote ID: why it was selected, why it has failed to meet expectations, and how prioritizing low-cost implementation led to major performance shortcomings.

Next, we get a masterclass on ADS-B, starting with its origins, benefits, and drawbacks. While ADS-B was expected to revolutionize airspace management, we discuss the objections to its adoption, the risks of partial equipage, and whether it has truly delivered on its promise of improving aviation safety. Christian also highlights unintended consequences that have emerged from partial equipage.

We then shift to ADS-B and drones, exploring its role in detect-and-avoid systems, non-cooperative traffic detection, and specific use cases like agricultural spraying. As more drones integrate into controlled airspace, we debate the need for certified avionics and how aviation safety can be improved without overburdening the industry.

Christian also shares insights into the FAA’s Surface Awareness Initiative, the push for low-cost airport surface monitoring, and broader industry trends in UAS and general aviation.

In this episode, we sit down with Captain Donald Lee Moak, a distinguished aviation leader. With experience spanning military and commercial aviation to boardroom leadership, Lee is known for driving change. He doesn’t just talk about change; he makes it happen.

Our discussion centers on three major themes: the urgent need to modernize and privatize the U.S. air traffic control (ATC) system to enhance safety and efficiency, lessons from aviation’s strong safety record, and the recent rise in incidents that Lee has warned about in op-eds and reports. We also dive into his tenure as president of the Airline Pilots Association, his insights on union and non-union leadership, and his advice for aviation CEOs and entrepreneurs navigating today’s challenges.

Lee doesn’t shy away from tough conversations, whether it’s advocating for regulatory reform, calling out safety risks, or pushing for leadership that truly prioritizes aviation’s future. From the bullhorn to the boardroom, he’s been at the forefront of meaningful change.

In this episode, we sit down with Arnaud Thiercelin, Chief Product Officer at Orqa, for a bold and eye-opening conversation about the present and future of drones and mobile robotics. Arnaud challenges the status quo, urging listeners to think beyond gimmicks and focus on delivering real value to end users. From FPV drones neutralizing M1 Abrams tanks to the West’s struggle to produce a viable DJI competitor, he doesn’t shy away from controversy. He calls out the industry's missteps and offers sharp insights into what it will take to reclaim leadership in drone and robotics innovation.

Beyond military applications, this episode explores the broader implications of mobile robotics across commercial markets. Arnaud discusses the critical gaps in the Western drone supply chain, the challenges of building a defensible company, and the next major competitive battleground in drone technology. He also shares his vision for integrating drones into enterprise ecosystems and the rapid expansion of drone use cases.

In this episode, retired Senior Chief Engineer Carey Cannon shares his 38-year journey at Bell Helicopter, talking about the realities of developing and deploying vertical lift aircraft. He discusses why many eVTOL manufacturers underestimate the time and cost required, why getting in the air is the easy part, and the enduring principles of helicopter design. Carey reflects on key programs like the V280 and EagleEye, the technology gaps he encountered, and the biggest technical and commercial hurdles eVTOLs must overcome. He also explores why traditional helicopter OEMs are cautious about eVTOLs and why few startups will survive the transition to electrified passenger transport.

In this episode we dive into an engaging conversation with Sean Donohue, CEO of Dallas Fort Worth International Airport (DFW). The discussion covers a broad range of topics such as the significant role of travel and tourism in the global economy, the strategies of introducing new technologies in aviation, and the operational priorities of running one of the world's largest airports. Sean provides insights into the complexities of balancing demand and supply in air traffic, his perspective on the privatization of air traffic control and airports, and DFW's extensive capital and technology investments aimed at future-proofing the airport. Additionally, Sean talks about DFW's role as an economic engine, the impact of car services like Uber and Lyft, biometrics in enhancing security and customer experience, digital twin technology, and the potential integration of autonomous vehicles and eVTOLs. 

In this episode, we sit down with Jenn Player, Vice President of Global Aviation Regulatory Affairs at Skydio and a leading voice in the drone industry, for a deep dive into autonomous drone operations. We start by unpacking the concept of electronic conspicuity and its potential to enable a fully cooperative shared airspace. Drawing from her experience flying larger UAS with the Air Force Research Lab and BNSF, Jenn shares why detect-and-avoid challenges in controlled airspace prompted her shift toward smaller, highly automated drones operating close to obstacles - a shift that ultimately led her to Skydio and her mission to "unlock the dock."

Jenn provides an insider’s look at the evolution of drone docks, their operationalization, and their transformative potential. She also introduces the compelling vision of “zero-to-many” operations, where drones independently handle missions with minimal human intervention. Along the way, we explore the state of the drone market, comparing the civil commercial and defense sectors, and close with Jenn’s practical advice for entrepreneurs navigating this fast-evolving space.

Welcome to 2025! In this episode, we sit down with Amit Ganjoo, the Founder and CEO of ANRA Technologies, a global leader in UAS Traffic Management (UTM). This conversation explores Amit’s vision for an integrated airspace and the critical steps required to make it a reality. We delve into the role of AI in UTM and ATM, touching on the controversies surrounding its use. Amit shares insights on the differences between the U.S. federated model and the centralized approaches used globally, offering a nuanced perspective on the evolution of UTM.

We also take a deep dive into the Dallas-Fort Worth operational evaluation, the first commercial deployment of UTM in the U.S., where ANRA plays a key role as a UTM service provider. This collaborative effort, involving companies like Manna and Wing, informs the FAA's BVLOS policy decisions. Amit provides valuable lessons learned, particularly on UTM business models, exploring the pros and cons of insourced versus outsourced UTM services and their viability.

In this episode, we sit down with Bobby Sakaki, an expert in small UAS technology and CEO of UAS Nexus. Bobby shares his insights on the critical role drones play in defense, particularly in light of their impact in Ukraine, and highlights concerns about the lack of a strong and coordinated U.S. and Western industrial base for affordable, competitive drone components. He explores the challenges facing the drone industry, including engineering, supply chain limitations, raising capital, and scaling manufacturing capabilities.

Bobby talks about the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), the Blue UAS program, and MOSA (Modular Open Systems Approach), explaining their importance in ensuring secure and reliable drone technology while addressing differences and challenges in implementation. He provides a breakdown of the drone technology stack (autopilots, radios, payloads, batteries, motors, ESCs and other components) and discusses the need for Western alternatives to Chinese suppliers. Bobby also shares insights from his recent trip to Europe, contrasting the region’s pace of innovation and fundraising environment with the U.S. The conversation wraps up with his predictions for the next five years in the drone industry, the use cases likely to emerge, and his picks for the top five companies making significant strides in the space.

In this episode, we speak with Brian Streem, Founder and CEO of Vermeer, about his journey from film production to pioneering drone technology in Ukraine’s defense ecosystem. Brian shares why he relocated to Kyiv, how he navigates the challenges of building advanced technology in a warzone, and the surprising ways it boosted his credibility with U.S. and European partners. We explore Vermeer’s Visual Positioning System, the competitive drone market, and Brian’s unique approach to solving problems, starting with listening to customers. It’s a candid, insightful discussion you won’t want to miss.

In this episode, we sit down with Joerg Dittrich, a leading expert in drone regulations and one of the minds behind the SORA framework. Joerg shares insights on the evolution of drone integration, the development of the specific drone category, and how safety and risk management shape modern drone operations. We explore topics like air risk assessment, drone delivery, drones in agriculture, UTM, and the transformative potential of drones in complex environments. Tune in for a deep dive into the future of unmanned aviation and the regulatory innovations making it possible.

In this episode we welcome Bob Poole, Director of Transportation Policy and the Searle Freedom Trust Transportation Fellow at the Reason Foundation, who brings his expertise on the complex and often debated topic of airport privatization. We discuss the pros and cons of privatizing airports, examining the potential value to various stakeholders, including government, investors and passengers. As Bob explains, privatization has transformed airports globally, boosting efficiency, revenue potential, and customer service in certain cases. Yet, the U.S. remains an outlier. He explores the reasons why, including unique legal and regulatory constraints, and what the implications might be if U.S. airports followed the global trend.

In this episode we’re joined by Montie Brewer, former President and CEO of Air Canada, who provides a glimpse into the airline industry from the vantage point of a major airline leader. Montie draws on his experience as a CEO to share insights into how airlines make decisions about their networks and approach technology adoption. For entrepreneurs hoping to break into this space, Montie offers great advice, explaining how airlines, under the scrutiny of passengers, shareholders, and sustainability goals, make or break the technologies you're developing. He stresses that for airlines, decisions are data-driven and focused on clear returns, demanding solutions that enhance operational efficiency and financial performance.

Speaking from the perspective of someone who led a major airline, Montie talks about challenges such as balancing airline schedules with operational performance, predicting block times well in advance, and navigating the complexities of IT upgrades. Montie's reflections, combined with his personal passion for aviation, make this episode a must-listen for anyone looking to navigate the airline industry.

In this episode, we dive into the FAA's evolving approach to approving waivers and exemptions for complex drone operations, including beyond visual line of sight (BVLOS), 1:many operations, and broadly airspace integration over the past 18 months. Joining us again is Charlton Evans, a trusted expert in FAA drone regulations, who last appeared on episode #35.

Charlton explains the significant shift in how drone OEMs and operators approach the type certification requirement in the U.S. Traditionally, the process involved going through the FAA's Durability & Reliability (D&R) process, which often took four to five years, as seen with companies like Matternet and Percepto. However, since mid-2023, the FAA has introduced a streamlined 44807 type certification exemption process through the Flight Standards Office, focusing on self-declaration. Charlton walks us through this new process, notable waivers, and his expectations for the upcoming Part 108 rulemaking.

We also explore the growing adoption of drone-in-a-box systems, particularly following DJI’s launch of the DJI Dock 2, and finish with a discussion on AI use cases in general aviation.

Two years ago, we hosted Gen. James Poss to discuss the evolution of drone technologies, their adoption in the U.S. military, and their early use in the war in Ukraine. With significant advancements since then - especially in Ukraine's use of drones - we invited Gen. Poss back to focus on counter-UAS strategies and the concept of attritable mass, including the USAF's major program, the Collaborative Combat Aircraft. We explore various counter-UAS technologies, such as missiles, lasers, drone interceptors, and electronic warfare, in the framework of mobility, survivability, magazine depth and cost per shot considerations.

The discussion also delves into the Collaborative Combat Aircraft program, which aims to restore mass as a military advantage. While the concept of "attritable mass" is not new, we explore why it's vital now and how it compares to past conflicts. Additionally, we examine the role of small UAS in the war in Ukraine, their impact on both offense and defense, and how the U.S. is adapting based on these lessons. Gen. Poss shares his valuable insights from his 30-year military career and leadership in UAS development, highlighting the exciting innovations reshaping modern warfare.

In this episode of The Vertical Space, we sit down with Kevin Noertker, Co-founder and CEO of Ampaire, to explore the evolving landscape of electric aviation. Kevin shares his perspective on the industry's progress and challenges, particularly in relation to battery development and the delayed timelines for fully electric vehicles. We explore the differences between battery-only and hybrid propulsion, highlighting the advantages and limitations of both technologies. Kevin explains why hybrid propulsion is seeing faster advancements and why it might be the preferred choice for regional air mobility operators. We also discuss the broader implications of electrification on regional air travel, weighing the benefits and drawbacks of electric, hybrid, and traditional aircraft in this space. Finally, Kevin shares valuable advice for entrepreneurs and innovators in the space.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Rob Britton, Principal of AirLearn, who brings five decades of experience in commercial aviation. This fascinating conversation covers the history and future of the airline business, the significance of the hub-and-spoke model, the realities of aviation sustainability, and the challenges and opportunities for advanced and regional air mobility. Throughout the discussion, we explore the enduring value of aviation, the power of market forces, and the critical need for innovation, all wrapped in a spirit of prudent optimism. Whether you're in the industry or just passionate about flight, this episode is one you won't want to miss.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we’re thrilled to bring you a conversation with Jeff Luckett, President and founding member of UPS Flight Forward, a subsidiary of UPS. Since our podcast's inception in 2021, we’ve featured numerous OEMs and service providers from both advanced air mobility and traditional aviation. However, it’s not often that we get to hear directly from the buyers and industry leaders driving the demand for these cutting-edge technologies. Today, we dive deep with one of the key figures in the industry.

Jeff shares his journey leading UPS Flight Forward, where he’s been instrumental in evaluating over 850 different companies to identify those best suited to meet UPS’s unique challenges and opportunities. He reveals the criteria used to differentiate the companies that made the cut from those that didn’t, offering advice to any company looking to collaborate with major players like UPS.

Throughout our conversation, we explore the crucial role of cargo-centric operations in the future of advanced air mobility. Jeff discusses why he believes the cargo market is poised to materialize more significantly in the near term compared to the passenger taxi market. He also emphasizes the importance of understanding the specific needs of organizations like UPS when marketing new technologies and services.

Jeff delves into the operational aspects, explaining why what happens on the ground is just as vital as what occurs in the air. We discuss the anticipated timeline for the introduction and scaling of future aircraft within UPS, UPS’s approach to insourcing versus outsourcing, and his thoughts on integrating new aircraft into the National Airspace System (NAS).

In this episode, we’re excited to host Srdjan Kovacevic, CEO and co-founder of Orqa. Despite a low public profile, this Croatian team has made significant waves, initially through ultra-low latency FPV goggles for drone racing and now by building their own drones through a fully vertically integrated model. This strategy not only optimizes cost and performance but also positions Orqa as a strong Western alternative to DJI.

Srdjan discusses his view that hardware in the small drone industry is far from commoditized, emphasizing its critical role in achieving optimal performance. He traces this misconception to the early consumer drone market and examines DJI’s innovation-driven dominance. Our conversation explores the benefits and challenges of vertical integration versus system integration, with insights into its impact on ultra-low latency video links. We also delve into how market dynamics and geopolitical events like the war in Ukraine are shaping the drone industry, and Srdjan shares his thoughts on FPV systems, their modern warfare applications, and future drone technology developments.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we sit down with Libby Bahat, Head of the Aerial Infrastructure Department of the Israeli Civil Aviation Authority. Join us as we delve into what makes Israeli airspace unique, given its position as one of the most threatened airspaces in the world.

We explore the Israel National Drone Initiative: its origins, surprising initiators, and current results. Learn about the costs of drone operations in Israel compared to other regions, and listen to Libby's "1, 10, 100" concept related to drone profitability.

Discover how drones are used and managed in Israel, particularly in the context of the ongoing conflict. We discuss the evaluations of advanced air mobility that have taken place in Israel, and which aspects are scaling today. Find out what elements Libby sees scaling in the coming years and what he's most impressed with in advanced air mobility today.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we reconnect with Bobby Healy, CEO and Founder of Manna Drone Delivery. Bobby returns to discuss how Manna has not only met but exceeded initial expectations over the past two years. He dives deep into the details of Manna's unit economics, revealing how they achieve profitability with every flight, even when delivering a single cup of coffee. 

Bobby provides insights into the evolution of drone delivery over the past two years. He reflects on initial assumptions versus actual outcomes, highlighting pleasant surprises, disappointments, and his vision for the future. He emphasizes the economic viability of drone delivery, contrasting B2C and B2B strategies and sharing insights on market dynamics. 

Moreover, Bobby challenges the status quo of road-based logistics, advocating for a future where drones dominate last-mile deliveries. He also outlines his vision for advancing air mobility beyond drone delivery, offering compelling insights into future industry investments.

We are happy to welcome back David Stepanek, Executive Vice President and Chief Transformation Officer of Bristow. With his extensive experience and pragmatic insights, David provides a comprehensive view of the evolution and future of advanced air mobility. In this episode, we revisit earlier impressions and assumptions, exploring how they have matured over time. For those who have approached this field with caution and realism, this discussion validates your strategy and offers valuable new perspectives.

David and his team have authored "A Philosophical Guide For Early Operations," offering a thoughtful roadmap for deploying advanced air mobility. As early adopters and implementers, David and Bristow's insights carry significant weight. He emphasizes the advantage of experience in vertical flight and operations for evaluating and scaling this technology.

You'll hear David's summary of the guide, his five-point thesis, observations on health management and flight operational data, the importance of experience in bringing technology to the aviation market, and reflections on how initial assumptions have held up or changed. 

Link to the Guide:
https://d1io3yog0oux5.cloudfront.net/_2417d02d32e4b0be3f7af9f8cd89487a/bristowgroup/files/pages/services/advanced-air-mobility/AAM_Philosophical_Guide.pdf

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we chat with Don Berchoff, CEO of TruWeather, about the critical impact of weather on aviation. Don highlights how weather-induced uncertainty costs the industry billions and shares staggering numbers on preventable costs. He discusses how aviation has adapted to unreliable weather data and the potential for significant improvements in flight operations and cost reduction.

Listen to Don's insights on the three key elements for better forecasts and the importance of data. We also delve into the challenges and needs of weather forecasting for drones, eVTOLs, and advanced air mobility broadly. Despite a high attrition rate due to weather, the aviation industry's willingness to invest in better systems remains a challenge. Luka and Peter push Don on whether the industry can afford to invest in improved weather systems. 

Welcome back to The Vertical Space and our discussion with Niels Kalshoven, Head of Drone Innovation Program at Port of Rotterdam and Co-founder Drone Port Rotterdam. This is one of the few discussions where we're speaking with someone without an aviation, OEM, or advanced air mobility background, but with experience where drones will be used - in this case at a maritime port, the Port of Rotterdam.

Building upon previous discussions with Andrew Hately, Niels delves into current and future drone applications in the Port of Rotterdam, highlighting U-Space implementation, scale of operations, and the role of ports in providing drone services. This is an interesting business model and it'll be interesting to see what type of service eventually scales at port operations. Will the ports allow their customers to operate drones independently with some type of centralized command and control, or will ports provide some type of centralized service? 

It's great to hear how trailblazers are establishing drone operations, how they justify their efforts and spend, and how they see the real value in return from the operations of the future.