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Storm Skiing 10/3/2026: Holiday Valley’s Chairlift Diaspora with GM Dennis Eshbaugh
Saturday, October 3, 2026 • Duration 44:16
Who
Dennis Eshbaugh, President and General Manager of Holiday Valley, New York
This is Dennis’ second appearance on The Storm Skiing Podcast:
Date Recorded
Oct. 2, 2026
About Holiday Valley
Owned by: Win-Sum Ski Corp, which Holiday Valley’s website describes as “a closely held corporation owned by a small number of stockholders.”
Year founded: 1957 (opened Jan. 7, 1958)
Pass affiliations: None!
Base elevation: 1,514 feet (bottom of Snowpine Quad)
Summit elevation: 2,324 feet (top of Tannenbaum)
Vertical drop: 736 feet (skiing from the top of Tannenbaum to the bottom of Snowpine would be tricky but not impossible if a skier poached the summit-top walking trails and didn’t mind a little uphill; however, it would not be a great run; the most consistent quality vert would be lapping the Mardi Gras sixer, which is roughly 693 vertical feet.)
Skiable acres: 290 trail acres, but 90 percent-ish of the trees are open enough to ski through (though the trailmap has few marked glades), when there’s sufficient natural snow. Which is often.
Average annual snowfall: 180 inches
Lift count: 13 (1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 7 fixed-grip quads, 2 carpets) – Cindy’s fixed-grip quad chairlift scheduled for replacement with a high-speed quad ahead of winter 2027-28.
Why I interviewed him
We are in the midst of a Great Aerial Lift Reset in the United States. Halfway through this decade, U.S. ski areas have already built nearly the same number of new lifts as they did from 2010-2019:
The last Great Aerial Lift Reset (GALR) came in the 1980s and ‘90s, when ski areas of means discarded not-terribly-old-fixed-grip-lifts and replaced them with detachables.
The difference between GALR 1900s and GALR 2020s is that, in the previous era, most large ski areas were willing to sell their discarded lifts to small ski areas. Today, many hesitate. Holiday Valley does not hesitate. Since the 1990s, the busiest, most aggressively modern ski area in New York State has sold eight chairlifts to seven ski areas in six states. An eighth floated south until it ended up, improbably, in the Andes Mountains of Chile:
Why does Holiday Valley do this? Operators who prefer to sell off the carriers as firepit accessories and scrap the rest often vaguely wave toward liability concerns. But I’m unaware of any injury lawsuit involving a relocated chairlift that blames the seller. Another common argument for scrapping older lifts is that detachable technologies are improving so rapidly that earlier generations of high-speed machines are too outmoded to bother moving. This is certainly true of most lifts built in the 1980s, but 1990s models have proven more durable – Boyne has relocated four within its system, and Holiday Valley’s 1996 Garaventa-CTEC detachable quad is now Corralco’s El Volcan Express.
So when Holiday Valley announced recently that their next lift replacement would be a 2027 detachable quad to replace the 35-year-old Cindy’s fixed-grip quad, the question was not whether they would sell it, but to whom (Holiday Valley also occasionally moves lifts internally).
And when Vail Resorts announced earlier this week that Park City would replace three 1990s chairlifts with two new machines, I thought it was fair to pressure the company to either re-use the lifts or offer them for sale. The three lifts in question are highlighted below. While they’re among the oldest machines on the mountain, they’re not old by U.S. chairlift standards.
I’ve held off reaching out to Vail for comment, as I anticipate seeing reps from Park City at the annual Ski Utah media event next week in New York. Vail knows how to move lifts – Hunter moved the Broadway fixed quad over to the Hunter East beginner zone two years ago, and moved a then-19-year-old bubble detach quad across Okemo in 2021. The last aerial lift relocation from a Vail-owned mountain that I’m aware of is Heavenly’s Powderbowl Yan triple, retired in 2004 and moved to independent (and then-private) Echo Mountain, Colorado in 2005.
If Vail decides to repurpose these Park City lifts elsewhere in their portfolio, fine. But if I see one more social media post humble-bragging about a $50,000 chair-sales donation from a lift worth 10 or 20 times that number, I think it’s fair to question whether the world’s largest ski company is putting its resources and scale to the highest and best use.
Transcripts
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Stuart Winchester: My guest today has been president of Holiday Valley New York since 1995, and general manager since 1989.
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Stuart Winchester: With 13 lifts serving nearly 300 acres of terrain on 750 vertical feet. Holiday Valley is one of the largest and busiest ski areas in New York State. It is also one of the snowiest, averaging 180 inches of lake effect snowfall.
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Stuart Winchester: per winter. He is also, like me, a proud brown dad. Dennis Eshbaugh joins me. Dennis, welcome back to the storm. How you doing today?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: I’m doing great. Good morning, Stuart, and thanks for the introduction, and uh… yes, and congratulations on your daughter at Brown, that’s outstanding.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, she seems to be loving it there. She’s in her fourth or fifth week, and uh… just, what a cool town. I’d never been up there, and I just expected Providence to be another city, but it’s very leafy and fun and collegey.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: I had the same experience in our first visit. I’d never been to Providence before Kate went there, and yeah, it’s a great, great town, and a great place for a great school.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and I didn’t realize this, but Brown is older than America.
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Stuart Winchester: So, it’s one of the… one of the few universities, yeah. All right, Dennis, we’re coming off a pretty…
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, hard to fathom, isn’t it?
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Stuart Winchester: crummy winter in parts of the country, but it was pretty good in New York, and I… I didn’t ski Holiday Valley last year, but I did get out to Hollomont Buffalo Ski Center, had really good turns there. How was last winter for Holiday Valley?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, the first thing I want to make an observation on is Jane pointed out that you were here in Western New York and didn’t ski with us. So you were duly noted, but the year was good. It was a touch late on the start. We opened a week later than anticipated.
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Stuart Winchester: Sorry.
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Stuart Winchester: Sorry.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Snowfall was average, I think it was in the 186 range, but the consistency of the snow was outstanding. And so the snow year was good, the ski conditions were good, and it was a really solid winter.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m sorry I missed. If you want to feel even worse about that, where I blew past you to go ski is Ohio.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Oh, my goodness! Hey!
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Stuart Winchester: I went and skied all over Ohio and then hit Buffalo on the way back.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Oh.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Ohio’s important, it builds skiers.
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Stuart Winchester: It does, it does. And they’re all… four of the five are owned by Vail, and there’s one independent still, so it’s interesting to see all the contrasts. And I wrote that up a little while ago. So, so last time you were on the pod.
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Stuart Winchester: Dennis, and one thing I keep telling my listeners is, one thing I like about doing shorter pods is I can have folks like you on more often, because I talk to you all the time, and bother you all the time, and text you all the time, but I haven’t had you on the pod in 3 years, and you’re a great guest, so it’s great to get you back.
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Stuart Winchester: But you were… you were about… or you were starting the process, or you had just announced you were upgrading Mardi Gras to a six-pack, and that was gonna be the fourth generation for Mardi Gras, and that… that detached quad you were shipping down to Chile. So…
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Stuart Winchester: just talk about that. The first six-pack at Holiday Valley, you know, three seasons in, how do you like it?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I would say we love it. You know, it’s a great lift. It’s a Doppelmeyer and a great piece of machinery. Of course, like everything, you know, technology continues to improve.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, the six-pack aspect, I mean, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been in this business a long time, and although I’d be perfectly comfortable to ski T-bars, uh, customers today don’t expect that. Um, and, and as the technology improves and the ability to have.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, larger seating capacity. Uh, I think there’s a real benefit there in many different aspects. So, um, that lift in particular, we didn’t actually increase our uphill capacity that much. We went from, I think, a design of 2,400 to, I think, that lift is 2,880, so.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: We’ll round it to 2,900. Um, but the comfort of the chairs, the seating, the ability for large groups, uh, it’s been a winner for us.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Has it changed the way people use the mountain and the way they distribute themselves? So in other words, given the choice of the six right here or the four here, do you find more people going here than you used to or any other patterns you’ve noticed?
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Stuart Winchester: And how that might have shifted how skiers use Holiday Valley.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, I don’t believe it actually has changed the pattern. I mean, Mardi Gras is a really critical lift, because it links the main base area, although there are, you know, four different ways that you can access the mountain, you know, parking areas and access lifts.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, really five, um, with, uh, the shoe chair.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: But what it has done is it’s made it convenient and it’s a big stepping stone. A, if you arrive here, whether you’ve got a group of family and you’re trying to go up and get into the upper area or get into Hidden Valley or whatever, it’s also the lift, basically the transitional lift. We have a wonderful beginner’s area.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, beginner terrain is critically important, in our opinion, and it’s a great transition lift to get people up into a really good variety of green terrain.
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Stuart Winchester: At this point in Holiday Valley, you know, I made the comments when I was introducing you, Dennis, that Holiday Valley is often, maybe always, the busiest ski area in New York. At this point in your evolution.
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Stuart Winchester: is it more about just taking better care of the skiers that are here, or you still consider Holiday Valley to be in growth mode as far as, yes, we can handle more capacity? So when you get a six-pack, is it about shortening lift lines, or is it about saying, hey, we have a six-pack, more people come here?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, that’s an important question. And I guess our view, my view, is it’s sort of like a tree.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: If it’s not growing, it’s dying, and so you always have to… you always have to look at growth, but… but we’ve always been believers in evolution versus revolution, and… and so as you evolve this area, um…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I don’t think there’s an opportunity for double-digit growth, but we can certainly continue to grow, serve more people.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, watch the transition of how people ski when, their patterns, uh, and make sure that we’re providing, uh, what they’re, you know, meeting their expectation, providing what they want.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: So I have the trail map up for those watching on stormskiing.com, or on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, which helps make a little more sense. And Holiday Valley, it’s this…
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Stuart Winchester: It doesn’t really look like this, but the trail map does a really good job of capturing everything without having insets and all these different things, so it really skis like a bunch of distinct ski areas, so it kind of looks like a long ridge on this trail map, but it skis much more like a bunch of.
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Stuart Winchester: different peaks. So, you know, Mardi Gras, Dennis, this is… those are your fourth generation Lyft, and Holiday Valley has upgraded Lyfts at a faster clip than probably anyone in the country, or at least as fast as anyone in the country, and you’re on your fourth generation of many different Lyfts. You recently announced what I believe is a.
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Stuart Winchester: third generation for Cindy’s Quad. Do you want to tell us about what’s going on at Cindy’s?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I’m glad to, and I also had to give you a compliment, uh, Stuart. You do a better job of keeping track of the statistics than I do, um, and that is important, and, you know, that generation of lift and that evolution. Cindy’s, you know, first started as a double chair, went to a quad, um.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: And, uh, uh, that lift is… was 1991 when it was installed, and yeah, this is the third edition. Um, so, yeah, what happens and why? Um…
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Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, the first thing is we’re fortunate, I guess, that we’re in a position where we can continue to evolve the technology of our lifts. Every lift, whether it’s 10 years or whether it’s 60 years old, safety is really all about maintenance and operation.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and that’s critical for every operator today, and I think everybody in the industry knows and appreciates that. Um, so what do you accomplish with a new detachable? Well, convenience, of course, is wonderful. Speed, uphill, I mean, the throughput.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: for, um, you know, the avid skier, the expert skier, um, is amazing, and I think it’s important for the expectation of today’s guests. Um…
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Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, expert skiers in, you know, the era of the 70s and 80s, on a typical Saturday, you were lucky to make 20 runs, because you spent most of the day in lift lines or on a slow-moving lift.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: And, you know, time is critically important to people. People ski shorter days than ever, and that… I don’t see that changing. Um, and… and so an avid skier can come here on that Saturday and get those 20 runs in an hour and a half.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Now, um…
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Dennis Eshbaugh: the beauty, I guess, of a detachable or high-speed, A, it allows the throughput, increases the uphill, uh, reduces the time, increases, basically, your ability as a skier to get up and down. Um, but then what it really also does for every skier.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: that, you know, that, uh, comfortable load and unload, it goes a long way. And, uh, it’s great for families, great for new skiers, great, you know, to get into the sport. Quite frankly, as an advanced skier, I think probably you see this, Stuart, uh, it’s easy to sometimes not pay attention.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, because lifts are so easy to get on and off today.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, last time I spoke with you, Dennis.
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Stuart Winchester: Yodler, the Yodler Express quad, was 2 years old, and that had replaced a 20-year-old fixed-grip quad, and I asked you.
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Stuart Winchester: did you have hesitation about doing that, or something like that? And you said, yeah, I really, you know, pressed the team on why we needed to do that. So, here we are, 5 years after, and Cindy’s is not quite as short as Yodler, but.
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Stuart Winchester: It’s a fairly short lift for a detachable, 2,000-some feet, so…
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Stuart Winchester: I guess you did find there was enough to like about a short detachable to continue building them, or are there other factors at play here?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, there are always other factors, but it starts with the customer. And one of the messages that I heard, actually a good friend of mine that is an avid skier and excellent skier.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: He said Yoda Yodler basically transformed his scheme because of, because of his ability to get um more runs in more vertical in a shorter period of time. And, you know, I, I personally, I wasn’t driven.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, from that perspective as much, but I recognize the importance. Uh, in the case of Cindy’s, um, it’s more blue terrain, uh, although it has access to, to other, uh, little steeper pitches. Um, it’s got a, uh, ratio off of it, and uh.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Fox Fire, which is important terrain.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: But the other thing that happens as you change a lift out, in our case, I mean, we’ve got a skier that’s been here a long time. We’re continuing, you know, to try to make it better, perfect what we can.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: it gives us an opportunity, um, to make some changes, which we have. You know, that first alignment.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: When the original double was built in 1978, the area was different at that point in time.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: interconnecting lifts up at the top were different. The golf course and the summer aspect was different. The circulation, etc. So one of the beauties of replacing Cindy’s and and putting this this new lift in this year is we’re making significant improvements in the infrastructure base area around it, changing some things in the golf course and the number one tee.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: moving the base of the lift so we have an improved milling area for the skier, as well as we’re actually going to gain some beginner terrain because of the former alignment, and moving it slightly west. So there are a lot of things that many of our skiers might not.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: initially noticed, but they will make the ski resort better.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: So, for folks familiar with Cindy’s in this busy area right here, the load station will move in what direction from where it is right now?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, from where your arrow is now, it’ll move slightly right. And then if you move even further right, you’re actually in the area where the number one tee is for the golf course. And so, you know, there’s a few things. There’s a golf irrigation.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: a reservoir right there that’s getting relocated to open that up, and then we’re going to have the ability, if you… if you look at the alignment of Mardi Gras, just to the west or to the right, uh, north wind slope parallels that, and again, this NIHU’s map, which is an outstanding map, does not.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: reflect the complexity and the depth of the mountain faces. But Northwind is a really important slope that parallels Mardi Gras, and it’s going to allow us to actually improve that bottom and interconnect where it comes into Cindy’s, what we call the East Complex. So, yeah, it’s, you know, these are small things, but I think.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: I think they’re really good things to make good skiing, better skiing.
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Stuart Winchester: And so you have a slightly different load, you’re still unloading at the same spot up top, Dennis?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Actually, we moved the top as well. We are changing some of the alignment, the tree line. The lift is no longer going to be on the Cindy Slope. It’s actually going to be further west of that, and it will come off really at the eastern top, or when you’re looking at the map on the left.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: top edge of Foxfire, right where your, uh, arrow is. Um, it will still have good access to the Cindy’s, uh, mountaintop, uh, warming hut. It’ll have great access onto the slope.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: the lift towers disappear off of Cindy’s Slope, which we’re really excited about.
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Stuart Winchester: Did they go… you’re cutting a new line in the woods?
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes, yep. Yeah, actually underway right now. We don’t have final engineering drawings, but we do have tower alignments, profiles are complete.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and so our hope is that we will actually get the foundations for the tower line in, uh, in October and November. Um, you know, the Europeans have been doing 2-year lift installs for some time.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s true.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: And it was slow to reach the US.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: But when we did that on Mardi Gras, it was really wonderful in what it did to allow, I guess, a better pattern, if you will, as far as schedule of construction, direction of the top and bottom terminals, you know, and all the equipment that interfaces with that.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Um, so you’re actually doing this one in a two-year cycle as well, so…
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, if we get this tower line complete, and we’re a little tight on time on this, but I think we will. We’ll have the foundation lines ready, and I just lost power for the fourth time this morning. You can probably see that on your screen, Stuart.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: I can, but your connection’s still good, so…
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Okay.
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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, well, we’ll see how the auxiliary battery backup holds up.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, we’ll see, uh, if a more, if a more important service at, at Holiday Valley needs, uh, that energy than, than this podcast, then, uh, I can, I can connect with you later. So, okay, so we’ll get a new Cindy’s, that then sounds like it’ll be ready for 28, 29 season?
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:43.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes, that’s the goal was 27, 28. Yes, next.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Or…
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Or 27, 28, I’m sorry.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:52.000
Stuart Winchester: 27, 28. Okay, perfect. So, at that point, Dennis, you’re gonna have… Cindy’s will be a 37-year-old fixed grip quad, right? This chair you take out.
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yep. Yep.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:57.000
Stuart Winchester: And Holiday Valley, more than almost any other ski area.
00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:01.000
Stuart Winchester: that I’m aware of in the country. The only other one that’s…
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:16.000
Stuart Winchester: done this nearly as much as Deer Valley, has been really, really good about either repurposing your lifts on your own slopes, or selling them to other ski areas, and you did an inventory for me last year, and it was 8.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Okay.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:33.000
Stuart Winchester: lifts that had gone on to other ski areas, and you said they were in, in Chile, and you, and that’s the, uh, Coralco lift, the, the old Mardi Gras one, New York Mass, that’s Catamount’s, Catamount Quad, and that was the old, the older, that 20 year old, the older, uh, this, Cindy’s double went up to.
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Ragged and is now retired. Uh, and then the Schoolhouse double went to Four Seasons. That’s unfortunately now a closed ski area. He is trying to sell it. Uh, maybe you can buy it back. Uh, and the, uh, Snow Pine double went to Toggenberg, which unfortunately is also closed, but as far as I know, the lift is still there.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.000
Stuart Winchester: I couldn’t… I couldn’t find which Lyfts you had sold to in West Virginia, Wisconsin, in Montana. I don’t know if you remember them off the top of your head, but…
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.000
Stuart Winchester: In every case.
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:08.000
Stuart Winchester: These lifts have gone to ski areas that probably couldn’t have afforded a brand new chairlift.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.000
Stuart Winchester: But still got…
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:19.000
Stuart Winchester: a good enough new-use lift that they were able to refurbish to continue to evolve their mountain. So.
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Just philosophically.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Is this something that’s important to you? Is this just a business transaction? You’re like, highest bidder, take off with the lift. How do you view this? Because it’s been a pattern for decades.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:50.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I would say, you know, probably in the early days, it was a business transaction. I mean, you know, you watch… you always watch every dollar you have. That’s important. You know, the old adage, if you watch the pennies, the dollars take care of themselves. Um, you know, that’s an old adage. But, um…
00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:05.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: No, I think we look beyond that. You know, I think it’s really important to a lot of areas to have, you know, a lift that’s affordable, and a used lift, you know, can help them get there. You still have to comply, of course, with.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, whatever the code requirements are. And, uh, you know, that’s pretty straightforward. Um, the idea of repurposing, um, you know, I think is really important. I think it’s good, you know, environmental stewardship.
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I think it’s good for the, you know, the operator and the industry in general.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: I also understand the complexity, especially for bigger companies. The manufacturers, you know, they have some concerns relative, I think, just to liability, because they’re, so to speak, out of the loop.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:44.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, uh, and there’s certainly, you know, I think some scaries that would look at this and say, I… I…
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:57.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: I’m not willing to accept the liability of selling a lift to someone else. Um, there’s risk in everything we do. Um, you know, our belief is that it’s good for other operators and good for the industry.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you think that you just have a higher risk tolerance than maybe the average ski area operator? Because you’re also one of the few ski areas that still self-installs, as far as I’m aware, and I’m not, I guess, I’m not sure if you’re doing that with Cindy’s, but you do have a high degree of expertise there.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:24.000
Stuart Winchester: You’ve done this so much. I just wonder, do you have a higher risk tolerance for risk, or is the risk exaggerated?
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes?
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:41.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, to all those questions. Um, so, yeah, why do we do it? Well, we do it because we have Jim Curtis as Director of Mountain Operations. This will be his 23rd lift installation. Jim started as a young man here.
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:47.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and it has built probably more ski lifts than a lot of people that are in lift manufacturing business.
00:24:47.000 --> 00:25:04.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, so, yeah, we’ve got a team in, in, uh, Mountain Ops here that, you know, they’re proud of their lift installations, they know their lifts inside and out. That serves us, our customer, and everyone, and, and quite frankly, you know, we’re pretty proud of their work, and they’re proud of their work.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um…
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:13.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: As far as the risk tolerance, you know, I think part of risk tolerance.
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, comes with…
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:31.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: being a bit of a technocrat and really understanding what the risks are, measuring them, going through, you know, the process management, if you will, steps of saying, you know, what are the real risks? You have to also, you have to look at what you are risking, of course.
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, you’ve gotta have, uh, a solid team behind you. We’ve gotta…
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:50.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: we’ve got a company, and our board has rarely transitioned, that has been incredibly consistent. It’s a small group that stands behind what we do, and has for 60-some years.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:03.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so… yeah, the answer is yes to all of those things, but is there risk? Of course there’s risk. Um, is it, uh, made, hopefully, um…
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, a sound decision? Yeah, we believe so.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I, I’m, I’m just not aware of any move.
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Moved chairlift that ever got the original seller in legal trouble and in a lot of the smaller ski area operators that I speak with, and we were both up at the ski areas of New York and Pennsylvania convention last week.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.000
Stuart Winchester: And one of their biggest…
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.000
Stuart Winchester: concerns is that as consolidation accelerates, and you have large players owning a lot of mountains, some of these large players seem unwilling to.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Put their lifts on the secondary market.
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:40.000
Stuart Winchester: And…
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:46.000
Stuart Winchester: it’s almost at the point where in New York and in Pennsylvania, it might be almost an existential.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:55.000
Stuart Winchester: crisis, because they have 60-year-old haul lifts, and there won’t be anything to replace them. So when you have something like Cindy’s, I mean, I’d imagine the first thing you think of is, can we use.
00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:08.000
Stuart Winchester: And if not, what does that process look like? Do you… I imagine you know everybody in New York. Do you reach out and say, hey, you want this lift, or do you just advertise it? How does that… like, if someone’s listening to this and they’re like, oh man, I want that 2,000-foot-long quad.
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:28.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, yeah, that’s a very good point. It’s not like, yeah, you call it up and, you know, ski lifts are us, or whatever, right? It lists the thing. We actually are just in the process of putting together, basically, a listing of, you know, what the original equipment is, the current equipment.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:38.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: the condition of the lift, the hours of operation, etc. Um, there are a handful of really good people in the industry that are involved in lift construction.
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:55.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, there are, I guess, probably 4 or 5 scaries that have already, uh, approached, uh, us and said we’d like to be contacted. Uh, I actually… I had an individual that I’ve known a long time, uh, reach out this week and say.
00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, could we make a deal with you before… before the lift is listed? Um, which is a nice problem to have, uh, whether or not that works out, I don’t know. Um…
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:18.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: So, yeah, it is a bit of word of mouth, though, actually. And we’ll see how it goes, right? I’ll know more six months from now.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:32.000
Stuart Winchester: So, just from talking to people around the industry, your Holiday Valley has a really excellent reputation for lift maintenance, so people are very happy to buy a lift from you. I’m gonna ask a question that you may not answer. I’m wondering…
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:39.000
Stuart Winchester: if you can tell us anything about how much these tend to sell for. And the reason I’m asking…
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Is because a lot of the larger operators, uh.
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, they will… when they take down an old lift, they will auction the chairlifts.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:56.000
Stuart Winchester: And they will put them online. And then they will donate all that money to charity, which is great. And they say, we donated $75,000 to XYZ. Fine.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.000
Stuart Winchester: But I’m curious, if they would have sold the Lyft.
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000
Stuart Winchester: and donated the proceeds.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.000
Stuart Winchester: how much more valuable is the intact machine? And I know sometimes a Lyft is just toast.
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:13.000
Stuart Winchester: But, you know, Bill, not too long ago, took out a 40-year-old fixed-grip quad at Mount Snow, and…
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:25.000
Stuart Winchester: basically recycled it. So… so is there anything you can tell us about how much the lift is worth versus the chairs for something like, say, Yodler when it was 20 years old and you sold it, or Cindy’s, which is about double that?
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:37.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: I think that’s harder to do today than it was 10 years ago. There were more lifts, I think, available and being sold, and the market was probably better understood or better known. It’s been interesting when I’ve talked.
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, with my peers in the industry that… that are really involved in lift construction in the… in the last 6 months or a year, um…
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:52.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: everyone’s afraid to give you, so what should the list sell for? And everyone starts looking at their toes.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:01.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, you know, from an experience standpoint, uh, I would say, uh, Lyft would sell anywhere from.
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Bottom would be 5% of value of a new one if the lift is really in poor condition, needs a lot of TLC. 10% of a value of a new lift is probably a common number, and 15 or 20 if it’s exceptional.
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so…
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, what does that mean? I would guess that lift, the machinery for that lift today, uh, probably would be in the range of contract of $2.5 to $3 million to buy a new fixed-grip quad today of that size.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: But I’m not really sure.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Damn.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:44.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: And so but I’ll I’ll throw that. That’s a lot of a lot of words. 10%. So.
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:53.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s extremely helpful, actually, and I’ve never heard anyone break it down quite like that before. So, when you make these deals, and let’s say somebody does buy Cindy’s, and…
00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:03.000
Stuart Winchester: I know you have that expertise to self-install. Would you then take it down and then offer to help them put it back up if they wanted, or do you just sell it and say, get your own engineering?
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:14.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, that’s… that is a very good and important point. Um, we only take them down, uh, because we want to control everything on our property. And when we sell the lift, it is FOB, our parking lot.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:28.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, we have equipment to help them load. For example, the Mardi Gras lift that went to Chile, um, was packed into containers. It was fascinating. Uh, and the team that came and did that did an outstanding job.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:45.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so we do not offer, uh, any outside, uh, off-premise. Uh, we really… we’ve got our hands full keeping track of our own equipment and machinery, and uh, uh, we have control of that, we know our systems, but we’re really not set up to be out on the road, uh, installing.
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Installing ski lifts for others.
00:31:47.000 --> 00:32:05.000
Stuart Winchester: And I’d imagine that would change that liability equation quite a bit. I had Jimmy Ackerson, the general manager of Caralco in Chile, who bought your old Mardi Gras lift on the pod, and he talked about that process of moving the lift from Western New York to Chile. And I mean, it took them a couple of years to do everything because it was such a distance.
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:05.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Mm-hmm.
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:10.000
Stuart Winchester: So that was a really impressive project. So let me…
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ll ask you…
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Before you ask the question, I’m just gonna add, and I think Jimmy, and I listened to that podcast, you did a great job with him. He’s an impressive guy. And they did an outstanding job with that lift. They needed some US support and assistance to get it done.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Thank you.
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: But they really did a great job in that install.
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks really cool. Have you gotten down there to ride it?
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: I have not. I have not.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:43.000
Stuart Winchester: What a trip that would be, right? To ride your old Lyft in South America. So let me give you a…
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes.
00:32:43.000 --> 00:33:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, it’s not really a hypothetical, but I’m, I’m just curious if you have any thoughts on this. So, so Vale Resorts is going to install two new lifts at Park City. They’ve been trying to put these lifts in for a long time. So they are taking out a 1996 Garaventa CTEC six pack and replacing it with an eight pack. That’s the silver load ch.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Stuart Winchester: They are taking out two Garaventa CTEC triple chairs. One is a 95, one is a 93, and they’re replacing those two lifts with one lift, a six pack.
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:16.000
Stuart Winchester: So to me, I sit here and look at these and I say, okay.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:25.000
Stuart Winchester: 30-year-old fixed-grip triples are probably in great shape, especially for a mountain like Park City that doesn’t have night skiing. Uh, that 1996 six-pack.
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Stuart Winchester: certainly probably didn’t have as many hours on it as your 93, I think it was, Lyft that you… it was a 96 as well.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: It was a 96 as well, but a day-night operating ski lift, yes.
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:44.000
Stuart Winchester: So I’m trying to lean on Vale a little bit and say, don’t scrap these things. Somebody needs them. Somebody will pay you real green money for them.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Stuart Winchester: If Vail was hesitating, and you just… if you had a consultation with someone trying to decide what to do with these lists, what would you tell them about your experience, and about how concerned or not they should be, and the sort of…
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.000
Stuart Winchester: goodwill they could get by selling these.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: So I’m advising Vail.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Wow, that’s impressive because Vale, of course, it’s an incredible company with some of the best and the brightest. And that question would be better answered by my friend Bill Rock, who does an outstanding job as the president of Vale.
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes. He’s been on the pod.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I… I think…
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I’m not… I’m not in Vail’s shoes. Um, that is a big company, and they have done an incredible job with the structure and to make the resorts work. Um, and, you know, part of being successful, of course, is being true.
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, to basically your own mission, and what you can and can’t do, and do well.
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: So, you know, would I like to see Vale sell lifts that you just described? Yes.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:51.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: um…
00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:08.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: But I’m not sure that I could give Bill or anyone else in the organization advice on how to do it. I think that it gets more complicated because the manufacturers are very hesitant to support used lifts, and I think one of the things that’s important for buying a used lift for a skier, if they’re going to install one, is.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: They need to make sure that they have a pipeline and support system for parts and service, etc. And now, if Jimmy Ackerson can do that at Caralco, I think anyone can do it, right? Because he’s in South America, and he’s got all sorts of barriers.
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:41.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: but… but that is important, and… and I understand if Vail doesn’t want to be in the middle of that. Um, uh, would I like to see them sell their lifts? Yes. Uh, but if they… whether they should or not.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Only they all can decide.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:49.000
Stuart Winchester: So let me ask you this question. What sort of goodwill or good karma or just…
00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:05.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, friends have you made selling to places like Toggenberg and Four Seasons and Catamount and Ragged that don’t have the cash flow that Holiday Valley does, I’m assuming, and that probably helped them take the next step in their… well, two of them are out of business, so maybe not, but…
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh.
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Right.
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.000
Stuart Winchester: What sort of goodwill has they gotten you?
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Alright.
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:21.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, well, I think probably some industry goodwill. Certainly, the long-tenured, uh, people in the industry, um, I think respect that. Um, you know.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:37.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Tom Sanford and I have been friends for decades, and he’s an outstanding guy, and he’s done a lot of impressive things in this industry, including being the Eastern rep for Doppelmeyer for a long, long time. Tom still does some consulting and work, and uh…
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:47.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, I think if there’s a guy that would know how to put the pieces together to get a lift reinstalled, it would be Tom. There are other experts as well.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:47.000 --> 00:37:03.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Do I get goodwill from Tom when we sell a lift and we see that happen? Absolutely, because, you know, he’s a believer in skiing and the industry, and he does a great job of helping every operator, whether you’re Vail, or whether you’re the smallest area.
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:14.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: whether, you know, you know, in the case of John Goodfellow, who decided to retire and didn’t have a successor at Four Seasons, and that Morvig lift is now standing there looking for a new buyer.
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:29.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, but I also appreciate that John’s, you know, situation, and it’s time to call it a day, that his land, you know, outside of Mandalus and Syracuse is far more valuable.
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:33.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: It’s something other than a small ski area.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:50.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, Dennis, I’ll ask you one more Lyft question, then I have one more thing for you. This has been the Great Holiday Valley Lyft discussion of 2026. Any insight on what might be next? Shoot Quad is 33 years old, Sunrise is 34, and then.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:38:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Snow Pine, I believe, is on its third location. I think it rotated through Mardi Gras and Morningstar, so that one’s, I don’t know, maybe 40 years old or something, but it…
00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Has a new, has a new motor room.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:05.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: That new term, the whole new base terminal. But very true. Yep.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah. Okay, so any of those, if you’re thinking about what you’re gonna do next, or you’re like, stop spending my money, Stu, go.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:26.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, yeah, they’re all on the list. What’s interesting, I talked about, I enjoy riding a T-bar. You’re always skiing, right? I’m a tiny minority of skiers today.
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, yeah.
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: it’s funny to me, Cindy’s has great exposure, it’s a wonderful lift to ski, especially in the afternoon, because it gets great sun, has great visibility, and it’s a ride that’s long enough that you can have a conversation.
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:59.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: And that is one negative about detachables. I mean, it’s like you’ve got to have an elevator speech ready, right? Because you’re not on the lift very long. I would say of our customers that have talked to me about Cindy’s. For everyone that has said, I can’t believe you’re taking away that lift and putting another detachable lift.
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I won’t be able to talk to my friend. Well, there’s 3 or 4 people that’s saying, thank God for getting rid of the slow lift.
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:21.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I do think, though, that those lifts that you just named, whether it’s Eagle or Chute, um, Snow Pine, there’s still a value there for a fixed grip lift and a purpose. Um, I think sometimes people, avid skiers that are making a lot of turns and a lot of runs.
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:36.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: will then go and look for a fixed grip to kind of catch their breath a bit. Um, but with all that said, um, I would say probably, uh, would be Eagle would be next in line, and it’s also the oldest, uh, of that lineage.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.000
Stuart Winchester: And eagles…
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.000
Stuart Winchester: a shorter lift, right? So…
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: It is. Yes, it is. Yep, yep.
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:53.000
Stuart Winchester: And would you be looking at… I mean, I guess it’s… it’s a little longer than Yodler, so would you be looking at detach over here, or… or is what you’re saying here is… is we’re going to consider each lift, we’re not committing one way or the other.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:03.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, I wouldn’t commit today, but I’m… but I’m confident that the pressures from, you know, our team would be… it needs to be a detach, that’s who we are.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Okay.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: That’s what our customer expects.
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Right, right.
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:22.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, Dennis, last thing I want to ask you about today, and that’s been enough lift talk, I think, for now, but you are one of the most prominent ski areas in America that is still not part of any multi-mountain pass.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:31.000
Stuart Winchester: And I believe when I asked you this question in 2023, your answer was, never say never. You know, we’re aware of it. We’ve been approached.
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Any update on that? Any current thinking about multi-mountain passes? Ready to say yes or no either way?
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: The answer today is no, but it is also never say never. I don’t think that’s changed. I think obviously they continue to gain presence and broader reach.
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:04.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: I think probably half of the ski areas, uh, in the US now are part of some sort of multi-area pass. Uh, so the independents definitely are shrinking. Um, there’s a purpose.
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: We’re fortunate, I think, in that, you know, we started…
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:26.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, following with the night programs of great introduction, low, you know, for for the beginner, not not low for the introduction of skier for for beginner skiers. With multiple day ticketing right? Primarily nights. It’s evolved beyond that and the complexity of what we offer.
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Fortunately, today, between, you know, our customer base and what we offer, we’re able to stay singularly focused on what we do. And I do worry a little bit from a…
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:50.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: customer perspective, um, you don’t want to overcomplicate life for the customer. Um, you know, you want to provide the best game you can. You need to be true to who you are and your security, and we’re all different.
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:57.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: And fortunately today, we’re still fiercely independent, it’s working.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and we have no plan to change. Uh, but I do think that never say never, you know, you always have to keep that in the back of your mind, and if you don’t, the world will move on without you.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Stuart Winchester: So, I wonder what it looks like in the other direction. So, it’s been 5 years since Vail bought Seven Springs, which I imagine you both pull equally probably from Cleveland, right? That’s sort of a… you could go either way?
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes.
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then Vail also has three ski areas around Cleveland, Boston Mills, Brandywine, and Alpine Valley that skiers could do as, like, a local, then go down to Seven Springs. I’m wondering if you’ve heard either way over the last five years, anecdotally, or I don’t know if you have data, that if you’ve either lost customers to the Epic Pass from that.
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Or gain some, who said maybe they don’t want to be part of something that is so national of a coalition, they just want their local mountain.
00:42:45.000 --> 00:43:05.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, there we go. The answer is yes. We’ve lost some and we’ve gained some. You know, I’d like to think I’m smart enough not to pick a fight with Vail Resorts, right? But we don’t need to pick a fight with them. You know, they are who they are. That pass, the epic pass, and how it’s evolved and what they offer is incredible.
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, we have a lot of our customers that buy Epic Passes. Um, have we gained skiers? Yes, our market share from Pennsylvania has increased, uh, as well as, uh, Ohio has increased.
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:33.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, does it have anything to do with Vail and the Epic Pass? I’m not so sure. I think it’s probably more impacted by the change in the Canadian traveler. Um, and, you know, there’s some border issues, there are concerns from the, uh, the Canadian perspective.
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: And their dollar is soft.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:50.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so, yeah, I don’t mean to belittle that question. It’s a good question, but the answer is yes, we’ve gained some and we’ve lost some. There are some people that, you know, are saying, oh, they’re independent, I’m going there. Uh, is that enough to make a ski area successful? I’m not so confident.
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:44:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you think it’s also a factor, Dennis, that… I think that your snow is just a lot more consistent than Seven Springs, and I don’t know if it was historically as far apart as it is now, because they’re on that high plateau in western PA. They don’t seem to be… they seem to be getting more rain these days, less big dumps, and you’re still getting 180 inches a year. Do you think that…
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Customers just going where the snow is.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:27.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I do think snow is critically important. I think snow making is part of it. I think we’ve done a really good job of staying focused. You know, the 700 gun system and over 50% of that is automated. Natural snow, though, trumps all.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:40.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Right? But you’ve got to have a base to work with to begin with. So, snow conditions? Absolutely. And, you know, that’s incumbent on every one of us to make sure that we put the best snow surfers out we can every morning.
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:42.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: So…
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, you do a heck of a job, Dennis, and I promise I will not drive past Holiday Valley again without stopping in. So, thanks so much for all this today. I always appreciate the conversation and the candor, and I hope you get your power back.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:08.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, it’s on at the moment, so hopefully it stays on. Right. Stuart, thank you. You do an incredible job. I, uh… I don’t want to give you a big head, but there’s nobody in our business that does a better job, A, of understanding the stats and keeping track of them, and uh…
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, Dennis.
00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, thank you.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: You always ask good questions. So my best to you.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, thank you very much, Dennis. Appreciate all that. Take care.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000
Dennis Eshbaugh: Bye-bye.
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:33.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Dennis Eshbaugh at Holiday Valley, New York. So, you know, I don’t mean to keep, well, I guess I do mean to keep hitting bail over the head with this Park City Lyft stuff. And believe me, I am going, I am reaching out to try to get Park City’s perspective on this. I’m just.
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:36.000
Stuart Winchester: seeding that conversation with…
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:51.000
Stuart Winchester: By putting a lot of thoughts out into the atmosphere that, hey, Vale, let’s not just take these lifts and solid chairs for 300 bucks and scrap the rest. Let’s see if there’s someplace else they can use them. If it’s, if it’s a Vale ski area, great.
00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, but if it’s not a Vail ski area, there are lots and lots of places that would love to have a look at those 30 year old lifts and we’ll, and we’ll pay you good money for them. So, all right, we do not have reader reaction today because I recorded this episode on Friday, same day I recorded the Mount Southington.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Episode, and so I did the reader reaction then. But I will be back on Monday with a conversation with…
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.000
Stuart Winchester: the General Manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey, Evan Kovach.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Evan and I have been trying to make that one work for a really long time.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:39.000
Stuart Winchester: If you want to support the Storm, please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Skiing Newsletter. That will get you new posts and podcasts right to your inbox the moment I publish them.
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:48.000
Stuart Winchester: And then if you like that, if you like the free version, you can upgrade to the paid tier, which is the very best way to support the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast.
00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:04.000
Stuart Winchester: And that is the only way to interact with the pod by leaving a comment on the article at stormskiing. com that comes along with this podcast. And it is the only way to read every single thing that I write. Oh, 80 percent of the written content tends to be below the paywall.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:11.000
Stuart Winchester: You can grab some storm swag at stormskiing.myshopify.com for a hat, hoodie, shirt, whatever else we have on there.
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:17.000
Stuart Winchester: And please follow the storm on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok @stormskijournal.
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.
Storm Skiing 10/2/2026: Mount Southington GM Jay Dougherty on Lift Upgrades, Snow Pass, & More
Friday, October 2, 2026 • Duration 46:59
Who
Jay Dougherty, President and General Manager of Mount Southington, Connecticut
Date Recorded
Oct. 2, 2026
About Mount Southington
Owned by: Multiple shareholders descended from the ski area’s founders
Year founded: 1964
Pass affiliations:
* Snow Pass – 2 days, no blackouts
* Snow Triple Play – up to 2 days, no blackouts
These two passes have a lot of overlap, but completely different rosters:
Base elevation: 210 feet
Summit elevation: 571 feet
Vertical drop: 361 feet
Skiable acres: 51 acres
Average annual snowfall: 40 inches
Lift count: 8 (1 triple, 3 doubles, 4 carpets) – view Lift Blog’sinventory of Mount Southington’s lift fleet
Why I interviewed him
A lot of ski areas are beautiful because they’re set within nature’s masterpieces. Mount Southington is beautiful because it’s not:
How cool is that? A ski area in the middle of a neighborhood. A neighborhood that most of us could probably afford to live in. Kids grow up across the street. If it snows enough, they can probably ski from their front door to the lifts.
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Storm Skiing 9/30/2026: Indy Pass & Snowvana Founder Doug Fish on Megapass Proliferation and the Future of Ski Shows
Wednesday, September 30, 2026 • Duration 49:39
Who
Doug Fish, founder of the Snowvana ski show and Indy Pass
Date Recorded
Sept. 30, 2026
About Snowvana
Snowvana is a “winter kick-off festival” (a ski show) scheduled for a four-city 2026 tour:
Use the code “thestorm26” to snatch a free ticket here for any 2026 Snowvana show.
Check out the list of free and discounted lift tickets available onsite at each show.
Why I interviewed him
If we trust the metonymic origin story of our surnames, then Doug Fish is a descendant of “a catcher or seller of fish,” probably sometime before the invention of the printing press. I cannot think of anything that I understand less than fishing. Specifically, how a person can be good at it. My experience with fishing is that you cast a line in the water and nothing happens while you get drunk. But my buddy’s brother could go out on Sanford Lake in a rowboat and return an hour later surrounded by like 50 fish. Every damn time. And I was always just astonished like whatever inherent traits you need to be good at fishing that dude has them.
I don’t know if Doug Fish is good at fishing, or if he even likes it. I do know that he’s good at skiing, and that he likes it. And whatever fishing ability he may or may not have inherited from Alabaster Fish of the 12th Century, he certainly possesses some of the traits of great fishermen: patience, instinct, and the ability to do hard things that no one else can figure out.
Organizing and launching the Indy Pass is probably one of the great achievements of modern skiing, in that it proved that any ski area - and therefore nearly any skier - could join the multimountain pass club. While Indy wasn’t a novel or new concept, Fish was able to achieve the heretofore impossible task of organizing far-flung ski areas into a coalition with patience, persistence, and a low-key, no-pressure approach devoid of Big Ski’s ego.
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Storm News 9/29/2026: 6 Takeaways from Vail Resorts’ Q4 Earnings
Tuesday, September 29, 2026 • Duration 50:09
It would not be difficult to locate a photo of The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast drinking canned Miller Lite shirtless in a lake while wearing a backward baseball cap. There is therefore nothing I can say here that can hurt anyone more than I’ve already hurt myself.
Vail Resorts reported fourth-quarter and end-of-fiscal-2026 earnings yesterday. I’m no financial analyst, but the numbers are what I would call “not good”:
[Epic] Pass product unit sales through September 18, 2026 for the upcoming 2026/2027 North American ski season decreased approximately 12%, days sold decreased approximately 10% and sales dollars, inclusive of sales and admissions taxes, decreased approximately 6%, as compared to the prior year period through September 19, 2025.
Which, whatever - the only Epic Pass numbers that really matter are the ones that Vail Resorts reports in December, after the product goes off sale. Up until two years ago, annual sales ranged from “all right” to “pretty good” to “damn-I-guess-making-a-season-pass-cheaper-than-a-frozen-burrito-moves-passes.” Unit sales - meaning the number of Epic Pass “products” (we include Epic Day) sold - increased every year from the pass’ introduction in 2008-09 until 2024-25. Even then, unit sales only declined by two percent:
Notably, Epic Pass sales dollars (right-hand column above),have never declined year-over-year. That could change this year.
Vail executives seemed oddly fatalistic about declining Epic Pass numbers. CEO Rob Katz noted, during yesterday’s earnings call, that destination guests’ hesitation to buy (mostly, he implied) Epic Day Passes after last year’s crummy winter was an opportunity for Vail to “lean in to be more competitive on lift ticket pricing.”
It’s all very disconcerting: after working for years to diminish the lift ticket as an Idiot Tax product-of-last-resort-that-will-either-force-you-to-buy-an-Epik-Pass-or-give-up-skiing-forever, Vail is betting on discounted lift tickets that sit well above peak rates from a decade ago to prop up financials as pass sales level off to yeah-2-million-passes-is-all-42-ski-areas-can-realistically-handle-anyway-Brah levels. Weird. Wonder what this guy thinks?
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The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast wants you to know that there is skiing in New Mexico. Even beyond Taos. Subscribe for constant journeys into such improbable ski realms:
Who
Jasen Bellomy, General Manager of Pajarito, New Mexico
Date Recorded
September 28, 2026
Also discussed
Upgrades across Mountain Capital Partners’ portfolio (see chart below), and reader reaction to last week’s pods - especially the EuroSki ep with Iain Martin.
About Pajarito
Owned by: Mountain Capital Partners, since 2014; company also owns:
Year founded: 1957 - predecessor ski area, Sawyers Hill, founded nearby by the same ski club in 1944
Pass affiliations: Power Pass, Power Pass Select, Power Pass Core - unlimited
Base elevation: 9,000 feet
Summit elevation: 10,440 feet
Vertical drop: 1,440 feet
Skiable acres: 280 trail acres + unspecified glade acreage (though Bellomy urges caution in the glades)
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Storm Skiing 9/26/2026: Fixing America’s Broken Ski School Model with Snow Schoolers’ Brian Bensch
Saturday, September 26, 2026 • Duration 01:03:55
The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast thinks that yelling “PIZZA!” and “FRENCH FRY!” at a 2-year-old superman straightlining down a green slope is a highly effective ski instruction technique. If you agree, please sign up for my newsletter:
Snow Schoolers, per its website, is an “independent ski school program” that teaches lessons “at any mountain where we’ve established a revenue-sharing partnership with the ski area.” Skiers sign up for lessons on their Pet Rectangles, like this:
Why I interviewed him
That sounds pretty neat, right? Let me go see if Snow Schoolers teaches at my favorite mountain. Snow Schoolers probably does not teach at your favorite mountain. Unless your favorite mountain is 222-vertical-foot Granlibakken, which is about five feet away from 6,000-acre Palisades Tahoe, or 100 vertical-foot Frisco Adventure Park, tucked off highway 9, after 1.5 million-ish skiers exit I-70 on their way to nearby Breckenridge.
That is not an indictment of small ski areas, which I love, or Snow Schoolers’ business model, which I also love. Rather, it’s my way of saying that the only way to sign up for ski school at Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge is through Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge. With the strange, grandfathered-in exception of the strange, cobbled-together ski bazaar that is Summit at Snoqualmie in Washington, all major American ski areas (so far as I know) operate with a monopoly over ski school operations on their property. In ways subtle and aggressive, they police and ban rogue instructors who would offer discounted lessons on resort property.
There are probably ways to break this system, either through the courts or legislative amendment of the Forest Service leases that 125 U.S. ski areas operate on. Such change sounds radical only in an American context - most European ski areas already operate with multiple independent competing ski schools onsite.
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Storm News 9/24/2026: Examining 61 Epic, Ikon, Indy Resorts in Europe with ‘The Ski Podcast’s’ Iain Martin
Thursday, September 24, 2026 • Duration 01:00:36
The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is flabbergasted by EuroSki. Donate to my brain transplant fund to make me more smarter:
Who
Iain Martin, founder and host of UK-based The Ski Podcast. YouTube here. This is Iain’s second appearance on The Storm:
Interview date
September 24, 2026
Why I interviewed him
If, like me, you’re a U.S. American SnoSportSkier, you may find European skiing more than a little baffling. More than 4,000 ski areas spread over dozens of countries with their dozens of languages. Trams and gondolas pop skyward from every other corner in Switzerland or the Pyrenees or Slovenia, as numerous as the strip-mall vape shops and Jesus-Knows-You’re-Watching-Porn billboards defecating all over America’s roads. The trail markings in Europe are all different colors. Why is no one skiing off the groomers? Who stole all the trees? Why is every ski lift either a tram that looks CGI’d to transport Storm Troopers to a fictional Star Wars Cloud City or a T-bar that looks as though it was hammered together by Yohan in between sheep shearings? Why is the food good and the alcohol cheap? Why do lift tickets not cost more than a semester’s tuition at Cornell? And, most baffling of all as we contemplate the growing presence of EuroSki on U.S.-based multimountain passes, why is every ski resort actually 10 or 15 or 100 different ski areas stapled together as the Valley of Grand Domaine de Les Skis?
I wish I could be more helpful in answering these questions. So far, I have not been very helpful. I felt like I could get away with just pointing and laughing as Vail and Alterra added a handful of big-time European ski resorts to their rosters, but the numbers have rapidly spiraled: check out the number of Euro ski areas that have joined Epic, Ikon, and Indy since 2018:
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Storm News 9/21/2026: Board Drama at Vail, Giants Ridge Shops Operators, A State-Run Ski Area in Utah?
Tuesday, September 22, 2026 • Duration 48:09
The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
Stuff referenced in podcast:
* The Salt Lake Tribune profiles Clint Richins of Logan, who wants the State of Utah to open a ski area where “he can take his family skiing without breaking the bank.” Clint, you have an open invitation if you want to come on the pod.
Storm Shorts 9/21/2026: Smugglers’ Notch, Burke, Indy Pass with Bear Den CEO Schaefer
Monday, September 21, 2026 • Duration 47:50
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About Bear Den
Transcripts
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. This is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.
Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the CEO of Bear Den Partners, which operates four New England ski areas. His family has operated 1,180 vertical-foot Berkshire East, Massachusetts since 1976, and acquired 1,000 vertical-foot Catamount on the New York-Massachusetts border in 2018.
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:53.000
Stuart Winchester: In 2025, the family teamed up with a local group to acquire 2,057 vertical foot Burke Mountain out of receivership. And earlier this year, Bairdan purchased a majority stake in Smuggler’s Notch, which with 2,610 vertical feet, 1,060 acres across three mountains, and 322 inches of average annual snowfall, is one of the largest, snowiest, and most fun ski areas in eastern North America. John Schaefer is my guest. John is a very good friend of the storm, and I welcome him back.
01:14:53.000 --> 01:14:56.000
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AMA 9/18/2026: No I Don’t Hate Vail, the Chairlift Apocalypse, Pass Strategies, & More
Friday, September 18, 2026 • Duration 57:31
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Today’s episode answers questions from paid subscribers. I’m not including the Zoom transcript since I am the only one speaking, and the built-in transcript (click button above) will take you to any point in the audio when you click on the associated text block.
Good thing the ski hill is already there. We rarely build cool things next to where we actually live anymore. But it’s hard to get rid of a ski area once it’s built, unless it fails. Southington [Suh-thing-ton] is not going anywhere. Three of the bump’s chairlifts are under 20 years old (two are younger than five), and a replacement for the fourth - Stardust - starts, well, any second now (a new top terminal is sitting in the parking lot).
A few dozen neighborhood ski areas like this still exist across America, mostly east of the Mississippi. Sometimes the neighbors hate them, especially during all-night snowmaking season. But very few people living in a house near a ski area today would have been surprised to find themselves living near a ski area, since the facility would have in most cases preceded them. Maybe a few even moved in to be close to skiing. It’s cool to imagine being one of them, waking up to morning turns three months per year. How cool - like having a lake house on a kinda small lake. It’s not Aspen, but most of us aren’t billionaires, and it’s nice to think that, in a few far-flung corners of America, there’s a backdoor to that sort of life that no one’s really checking.
* A bit more on Southington’s Northstar lift, received second-hand from Craigmeur, New Jersey, migrating for its third life as Lost Valley, Maine’s Chair 3.
* Somehow all my Mount Southington photos have vanished into the digital void, but Instapost preserves this shot of a really awesome sunset from my 2021 visit. Top of the Stardust chair:
Transcripts
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.
Zoom
Stuart Winchester: My guest today has been president and general manager of Mount Southington, Connecticut since 2014.
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Stuart Winchester: Established in 1964, Mount Southington offers 51 acres of skiable terrain served by four chairlifts and several surface lifts. Jay Doherty is my guest. Jay, welcome to the storm. You are the first Connecticut representative to ever be on the podcast, not.
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Jay Dougherty: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: for any reason other than I haven’t been able to figure out who to talk to, so thank you very much for coming on today.
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Jay Dougherty: Oh, absolutely. I’m excited to be here. Excited to join you.
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Stuart Winchester: And you’re a true Connecticut guy. We were chatting a little bit, and you said that Southington, and I don’t know if I’m even pronouncing that right, is in — OK, there we go. There we go. All right, see, this is why I need to get you on the pod, because otherwise I mess up simple things.
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Jay Dougherty: It’s Southern Vin. Yeah, there you go. It’s all good.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah, exactly.
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Stuart Winchester: From right down the street, he said, tell us about Southington and what it means to you. Southington.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so I’m one of those fortunate few to get, have the opportunity to run the actual ski area that I grew up at. You know, I’ve had a season’s pass here since I was probably seven, eight years old. You know, and then I worked, this was my first job was in the rental department here. So it means a lot to me and about something that’s got a great community connection.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Oh.
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Stuart Winchester: And did you… I noted that you’ve been general manager since 2014. That’s as far back as I could find your history online. Did you work there as a lifty in high school or anything? Was it your first job?
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Jay Dougherty: I did, yeah, so it was my first job, I worked in the rental department as a technician, um, and then I was going to college for elementary ed, um, didn’t really know what I wanted to do, and my parents were like, well, I gotta do something. So I’m like, yeah, alright, you know, there’s a shortage of.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: male, young elementary school teacher. So I’m like, that sounds like a great opportunity. But I was working here and got offered a year-round position painting lifts. And I fell in love with it at that point. And then I found a college program that was just starting out with Green Mountain College in connection with Killington.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Uh, and I ended up going there, and, you know, I graduated 2004, uh, worked for Killington for a very short while, and then came back here as Assistant Mountain Manager.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: So talk to us a little bit about who owns Mount Southington. There’s a really good, you know, New England Ski History, this site does a great job with the origin stories and there’s a little bit on your site about the doctor and his wife, Dr. Harold Richmond and his wife who started it.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
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Jay Dougherty: Oh.
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Stuart Winchester: I’m not sure who owns it now, but who do you report to?
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Jay Dougherty: Uh, this is the best story, because it’s actually the kin of all the original owners. So all of their kids own it, and now we’re starting to see actual, like, fourth generation, like…
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, really? Oh, cool.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
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Jay Dougherty: starting to enjoy the ski area. You see all the little kids and the nephews, cousins. So, uh, there’s actually probably about 25, um, actual owners, um, but we’re very organized down to, like, the board of directors that I answer to, that is comprised of those owners.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: So are they still mostly local folks then?
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Jay Dougherty: No, not at all. Everybody’s spread out, uh, basically worldwide at this point.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: All over.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: You know, I… maybe you’re not able to speak for them on this, but I’ll ask, because I’m seeing…
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Jay Dougherty: Hmm?
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Stuart Winchester: Family-owned ski areas all over the country. Go through a sort of, uh…
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Stuart Winchester: ownership existential crisis where maybe the parents were really into it, or the grandparents, or even the grandkids, but then along comes a generation that maybe just doesn’t have an interest in running a ski area. You know, that’s how Vail ends up with a lot of its ski areas. They just, they were family owned, and they get.
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Jay Dougherty: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: rolled over. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, I’m just saying that it’s a model that is uniquely challenged by, you know, generational transition. What’s your sense from Southington and the owners that you work with that.
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Stuart Winchester: They would like to keep this, as it is, a community ski area owned by families for, you know, the foreseeable future, or not.
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Jay Dougherty: So what I can say is that they’re great at advocating themselves, like the board of directors that advocates amongst the ownership group for involvement. Um, subcommittees, um, and obviously we always promote to them, like, you know, take advantage of this great opportunity that, like, your grandparents, again, or great-grandparents.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Ah, set you up for it. I mean, there’s a lot of, um.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
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Jay Dougherty: There’s a lot of benefits to owning a portion of a ski area and being involved with it.
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Stuart Winchester: So as it is, it’s had all this time to…
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Stuart Winchester: grow under the original owners, and I imagine it gives it a really cool character, and I want to talk about some of the character things in a minute, but can you tell us, and this is going to sound like a dumb question, Jay, but.
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Stuart Winchester: I think you’re uniquely qualified to answer it, having grown up down the road. What is Mount Southington? And what I mean by that is you look in New England, there’s a hundred ski areas, right? And you don’t have to go very far north to get to some really big ski areas, some really nice ski areas, you know, Mount Snow, maybe the first one north if you’re going.
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Jay Dougherty: Yes.
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Stuart Winchester: And…
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Stuart Winchester: I think a lot of folks kind of look at skiing as, like, up and out. You know, I conquered Southington, so I don’t have any reason to go back there, and I talk to people all.
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Stuart Winchester: who live in New Jersey, and I’m like, do you have a Mountain Creek Pass? They’re like, no, why.
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Stuart Winchester: Right, it’s not, you know, Jackson Hole, but it has 1,000 vertical feet and high-speed lifts. Now, Slingson’s a different thing, but you have pretty new infrastructure. So, what do you think…
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Stuart Winchester: Southington is. Is it just a place for the kids? Do you try to make it nice for that? I know every skier has got that, uh, crew of dudes who are, like, 75 and then boot up every morning in the lodge. I think that’s a Northeast thing. So, so what is Southington to you, and, and.
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Jay Dougherty: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: What’s your kind of core audience you focus on?
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah. So we’re we’re really the feeder, right? And and one of the things that we really strive to do, especially over the last decade. So my tenure as general manager is try to create pathways to keep everybody engaged a lot of times. What you’d find is you get that kid that gets to middle school, and they kind of like fall off, and they’re no longer interested. So like.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Jay Dougherty: What we’ve tried to do is create pathways for those interested in terrain parks. We’ve introduced like an intro to free ride or freestyle for those interested in alpine racing. There’s intro programs for that. We have weekend.
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Jay Dougherty: snow sports, school programs like our wild things and all of those type of things. So really, what we focus on are the kids, but also families. I think it’s a great family atmosphere. If I had to like, we do a lot of things, and we do a lot of things pretty well. I mean, we go everywhere from like high school racing.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Um, we’re the home of Connecticut’s high school, like, at least the public school leagues. Uh, we have adult night racing, um, and then, like, we host USASA events, uh.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: So it’s it’s it’s a lot and it’s a really orchestrated operation.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Jay Dougherty: You gotta be, you know, sometimes, uh, you can almost think of it as, like, being a maestro, trying to keep everything moving, and…
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Jay Dougherty: So it’s not stepping on something else, you know, because we we really do change, and that that could happen in one day. The demographic completely shifts from yesterday. 75 plus crew that’s here during the day. You hit 3 o’clock and the buses start unloading, and it’s just.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: crazy here. And then, at the same time, um, we’re really unique in, like, our seasons past. Like, most of the visits that come from our seasons past, those folks live within, like.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: probably a 15-mile radius of the mountain. So after school, all of those teenagers are getting dropped off here. Uh, so it’s… it’s… it’s unique, um, in that sense. And then 8 o’clock, it’s night racing.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Jay Dougherty: So.
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Stuart Winchester: So I’ve pulled up your trail map here, for those who are watching this on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, and the Connecticut ski areas, all four of them that are public, they remind me of Midwest ski areas, and that’s… I say that because that’s where I grew up, and Midwest ski areas are very.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: efficient, right? They have the racing lane and the terrain park, and what I really liked, I thought was impressive when I came to Southington, was you had a little mogul patch, maybe it was right here when I came.
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Stuart Winchester: This seemed to be the race hill. Wasn’t much going on the day I was there, but that’s neither here nor there. That’s what I was assuming that was for. And there’s some really nice park stuff.
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Stuart Winchester: I don’t know, just… I mean, you can see it on the trail map where it’s marked, but… but it’s… it’s, like, thought.
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Stuart Winchester: to, you know, give variety and make a small place.
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Stuart Winchester: feel bigger. I also like how you haven’t widened the trails too much up top. So, just talk a little bit about that, you know, efficiency of use, and how challenging it is to make a mountain for everyone.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah, it is a challenge, especially when you’re only dealing with like 51 acres, right? A skiable terrain. But you, you know, we want our programs to be successful. We want everybody to have a good time. We’re fortunate in that, like our lift capacity somewhat matches our parking capacity.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: So, like, people see the lots fall. Connecticut’s a small state, so, like, if we’re full, it’s very accessible to go somewhere else. Not that we’re encouraging that, but we don’t want to… we don’t want to overcrowd our trails, right? And yes, I admittedly catch flack, because when you do run high school racing in the afternoons, oftentimes you have to close down that.
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Stuart Winchester: Down.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Thunderbolt Trail in its entirety. There’s sometimes four GS lanes that are set up across it during training and race days.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Um, but you… you try to do a good job at everything you’re gonna offer. Um, so, you know, oftentimes, we… we get questions about things like tubing, right? Like, why… why don’t you have tubing, right? So…
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Jay Dougherty: unless I can do a really good job at it, um, which our acres just doesn’t allow for right now, and our parking capacity, like, it’s… it just doesn’t make sense to do it, because I don’t want to…
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Jay Dougherty: offer, like, a poor product, a poor on-snow product, so… Um, but yeah, it’s, uh, it is a big challenge, uh, for sure, especially when you’re…
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Jay Dougherty: you know again, going back to that demographic shift like on a Saturday or Sunday morning, and you have all these lessons that are out there, and they’re all fighting for beginner terrain. Yeah, it’s a it’s a challenge.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and for folks who may be wondering why…
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Stuart Winchester: Southington doesn’t put in more. Here is Southington on the map, right? This is a Google map, and you can see neighborhood. You have development all around you, and I think… what is this, like a nature preserve in the back?
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Jay Dougherty: No.
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Jay Dougherty: Uh, so that’s actually Southington Water Department, so yeah, there’s no… there’s no expansion that’s gonna happen back there, yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Stuart Winchester: Right, and if you really zoom in, I mean, some of these houses, they probably have ski-in, ski-out if they want it. I.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah, they’re really good. Some do, actually.
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Stuart Winchester: I don’t know if they do.
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Stuart Winchester: But you have this, uh, it’s a really unique location, and it feels very New England, because you, you get off the highway, you get off 84, and you’re driving through these neighborhoods, you’re like, where is this, is there really a ski area here? You know, I’m just blindly following my Google Maps like everyone else, and you pull up, and there’s this.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: barn. And I was reading a little bit about the history of it, but I’ll let you tell us, what is this barn, and what can you tell us about the history of Southington as far as how you crammed a ski area.
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Jay Dougherty: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: Or how a scary is crammed into a neighborhood that probably wants a neighborhood.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so, the story goes, as you can read on the website, uh, Dr. Harold Richmond took his family on a ski trip up north, uh, I’m assuming it was probably Mount Snow, and, uh, I wanted to recreate that in Connecticut. I mean, there were already existing areas in Connecticut, obviously Mohawk was around, um, it was Satan Ridge at the time.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: So he came back and was looking for a spot. Initially, I think he wanted to open a skating rink in the town of Southington, and that got like shot down by the planning zoning at the time. So this farm was up for sale on the west side of town.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: At that time period, all of those houses weren’t there. There were some, but not nearly the messages there on the map.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: And, you know, he purchased the farm. Uh, he was an orthodontist, which…
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Jay Dougherty: typically doesn’t blend well with construction, uh, at least, uh, on-hill construction. Uh, so they partnered with Palmisano Construction out of Bristol, and they built out the ski area. Uh, in 1964, it opened, so…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Been going ever since.
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Stuart Winchester: And then the barn, I understand that this property, I think, was assembled from a lot of things, but part of it was actually a dairy farm, right?
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
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Jay Dougherty: Yep.
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Jay Dougherty: Yep.
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Jay Dougherty: So, yeah, so, yes, I have, uh, actual photos of, um, cows being milked in that barn, uh, by the original owners, uh, which one of the original owners, actually, the family still lives in an adjacent property, so…
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Stuart Winchester: Really?
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Do you have any idea how old the barn is?
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Jay Dougherty: Uh, roughly, I think there’s a stamp on the side, it’s like 1937.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay, so have you, you know, I imagine a lot of renovations have happened over the years. Do they have to winterize it? Did they, like, what do you, what does it take to maintain a building that’s this old? Because it looks super cool, but one other thing I know about old buildings by living in a bunch of them is they’re a pain in the butt.
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Jay Dougherty: Yes.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
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Jay Dougherty: Yeah, yeah, it’s a challenge. It certainly is. You know, they’re not the most efficient structures and like, especially when you’re striving for sustainability these days and trying to reduce your carbon footprint and an older facility like that.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Jay Dougherty: you know it. It’s it is oftentimes drafty. But there there is that like quaint New England feeling to it when you walk in. Certainly, if it were much larger, it would. It would better service the folks visiting here. But we also have the mountain room, which is a second restaurant.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jay Dougherty: Um…
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Jay Dougherty: and lounge area. So, you know, we do a good job of spreading folks out, and.
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Jay Dougherty: you know, in the post-COVID era, people seem to not be as afraid to eat outside anymore. So, like, we’ve taken full advantage of, like, patio space and things like that.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Stuart Winchester: That’s cool, and then the old original farmhouse, I believe, is your ticket office, is that right?
00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:10.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep. Yeah, I’m sitting in it right now. My office is in there, guest service office, everything like that.
00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:08.000
Stuart Winchester: But.
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:26.000
Stuart Winchester: That is so cool. So another quirk of Southington and Southington, and you, you find this only, well, I’m sure you find it elsewhere, but I’ve only seen it in the northeast, is the parking lot across the street. And so I know you have overflow parking here, but I always think it’s kind of neat, but also kind of.
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:21.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:36.000
Stuart Winchester: scary, considering your demo of kids. I mean, how much of a pain is this? Is this, like, the apple orchards where… because I came on a non-busy day, like I usually do these places, and uh…
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.000
Jay Dougherty: Mm-hmm.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:44.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, like, I know the apple orchards in the fall have to set up a cop to safely get people across the road. What’s the… what’s the safety situation here?
00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:50.000
Jay Dougherty: So the states provided us with a great, like, crosswalk there of solar power.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:56.000
Jay Dougherty: It’s not… Mount Vernon Road, unless the traffic’s coming here, is not typically that busy.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:01.000
Jay Dougherty: It’s not one of the main, like, thoroughfares in Southampton by any means.
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:18.000
Jay Dougherty: And for the most part, yes, occasionally you get the rogue driver that’s doing over the speed limit, and you do encounter a scary situation. But knock on wood, I mean, for the most part, it’s function. People know we’re here. Certainly anybody in town knows we’re here.
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:13.000
Stuart Winchester: No.
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:30.000
Jay Dougherty: So, it really hasn’t been quite that big of an issue. It’s well-lit, like, you know, at night, the skier would glow.
00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:40.000
Jay Dougherty: as, you know, we put it, it’s there. I mean, you know, it hasn’t been a huge issue, but it is unique to, you know, New England skiers. You really don’t see it anywhere else.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so when I, when I see all these houses, you know, I made the crack that they might have ski in, ski out, and that’s my brain going to, I would love to live on the side of a ski area. Uh, not everyone necessarily does. I was talking to the folks over at Thunder Ridge last week up at, uh, the Ski Areas of New York convention.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:12.000
Stuart Winchester: And they’re similarly built, kind of, aside a neighborhood. But, you know, the ski area’s been there longer than most people live there. They said they’ve been having some issues with neighbors. I don’t know how Southington sits with its neighbors, or if this is a blessing or curse to have these homes right here.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:32.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, obviously, the ski area itself, before a lot of those homes, especially ones that are trailside, um, you know, the ski area existed. Uh, early on, yeah, there were certainly issues. I mean, they were running, and I don’t know if you’re familiar with, like, snowmaking equipment, but, like, Radnik’s, like, Sky Giant 2, or.
00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:49.000
Jay Dougherty: snow giant tubes, which were loud, sounded like a jet engine taking off. They were running compressors. They used to pump air into mines in Pennsylvania, like, very much a smaller version of what Hunter had going on a few years ago. And, like, it would, you know, thump and…
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:49.000 --> 00:20:04.000
Jay Dougherty: shaking foundations. We’ve since modernized a lot of our equipment. We’ve gone to mostly fan technology, and it’s quieted down quite a bit, but it was such an issue back then. The town recognized how important the steering was.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000
Jay Dougherty: you know, to tax revenue. We bring a lot of skier visits in. Um, you know, I think about this here, it’s like a ton of volume on small acreage. So, you know.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:26.000
Jay Dougherty: They actually worked with my predecessor, and it’s actually in the town ordinance that we’re exempt from the noise at night.
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, yeah, so…
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I have to imagine, too, that as your equipment has gotten more efficient, I’ve seen a lot of skiers, their snowmaking window has really shrunk.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:55.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, that’s absolutely us. Um, we have a really difficult climate where we are. You know, it’s somewhat coastal. Uh, we deal with Long Island Sound, you’re close to the Connecticut River. Um, you know, we always talk about that I-84 corridor in Connecticut before, like the snow line versus rain line, and um…
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:10.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, it is a challenge year after year. So, like, staying on top of ZoomMate, that’s probably one of our largest investments that we do. We put our new pump house in, fully automated in 2018, and now we’ve been, every year, just adding more automation to the hill.
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:16.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, this year we added another, like, 10 TL8 Lances from TechnoAlpin, um…
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:22.000
Jay Dougherty: and yeah, I mean, it’s the way to go, uh, because our winters are so short, like…
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.000
Jay Dougherty: Oh.
00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:37.000
Jay Dougherty: like, manual snowmaking equipment, like, you’ll never be able to keep up with a computer as far as, like, changes in the atmosphere and conditions, so it’s worked really well for us. And it’s manageable because we’re small, you know, like, we can bite off small investments at a time with it.
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I try to make that point to my listeners and readers a lot, is that…
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:51.000
Stuart Winchester: I was certainly surprised by this when I started this podcast, is sometimes the smallest ski areas have the best snowmaking, and I always point to Pennsylvania, they are just…
00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:50.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:03.000
Stuart Winchester: have some incredible snowmaking systems, because they have very challenging weather patterns, and that rain-snow line you’re talking about, a lot of times, folks who are in the Northeast, our weather goes sort of up at an angle.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:05.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, yeah.
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:14.000
Stuart Winchester: So… so it comes from wherever it comes from, and then goes… so there’s sometimes this fun little rain-snow line that… that sometimes you’re below, but sometimes you’re above, right?
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:31.000
Jay Dougherty: Right, and you have to be able to recover quickly, and that’s what it’s all about. I mean, like, typically after you get, like, one of those events, um, you do have usually some colder weather that’ll follow in, and you have to take full advantage of that, and you want to be able to resurface as much terrain as possible, so…
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And are you feeding from this… this pond down here?
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:44.000
Jay Dougherty: Yes, but we also have a, uh, water supply from the town. The town owns their own water here, so yeah. And we pay for it, um, but that’s another expense item.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh.
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’s great.
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000
Stuart Winchester: So, snowmaking’s big. Another thing that Southington has really been investing in is lifts, and you’re… you have one of the newer lift fleets that I’m aware of for a small ski area, and uh…
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.000
Jay Dougherty: I don’t know how.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Let me just pull up my notes here so I get this correct. But the…
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:15.000
Stuart Winchester: So you put in North Star just three years ago, right, or two years ago, or 2023. Avalanche was new in 2021, I think.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Thunderbolt was new in, like, 2011, is that right?
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.000
Jay Dougherty: Uh, 2009 for Thunderbolt.
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, 2009. Right, and so, uh, before I ask you about these lists individually, I was up at, again, I was at Skiers in New York last year, or last week, and one of the big concerns with these guys, because New York has the most Skiers, but it’s mostly family owned.
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:40.000
Stuart Winchester: And one of their big concerns is just the cost of new lifts. All your lifts are ParTech lifts.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000
Jay Dougherty: Correct.
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.000
Stuart Winchester: And I’ve talked to Hagen, and…
00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Small operators, especially in the Northeast, or actually whoever’s worked with them, speak very reverently of Hagen and how if he wasn’t around, it would be very hard to afford new lifts. So can you just talk about working with Hagen on these lifts? And I realize, Thunderbolt, you were not in the GM role at that time, but it sounds like you were on site.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Stuart Winchester: So just talk about Hagen and what it’s like to work with him and how important he is to small ski areas in the 2020s.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so Hagen… Hagen’s great. I mean, like, I have a long-standing relationship with Hagen, and…
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000
Jay Dougherty: he’s the guy that you can call on, like, Sunday morning, and, like, if you need him to take a ride here to look at something, he will. Um, stands behind his product, always fix it, you know, he’ll work with you. He’s a solutions guy, really, um, is what it boils down to. And I feel like, um.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:35.000
Jay Dougherty: you know, when it comes to Hagen, like…
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:41.000
Jay Dougherty: He’s willing to work more with you than… than…
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:56.000
Jay Dougherty: I don’t have much experience working with the other manufacturers, because really, like, I’ve only really considered that, because, I mean, one of the important things for me is to try to standardize everything here. It makes it easier on my crew, it makes it easier on what we have to stock for lift parts.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:12.000
Jay Dougherty: and all of the above. Um, so, like, every one of our lifts now has the same grip in it, you know, assemblies are all similar, except for one lift, which we’ll talk about, I’m sure. Um, but yeah, I mean, I have nothing but good things to say about Hagen, and he’s.
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Jay Dougherty: incredibly important to this, and you say you’re from the Midwest, so, like…
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:33.000
Jay Dougherty: that’s where I think you know where where you don’t have you know that the lift ticket pricing in general in the Midwest is a bit lower than it is in the northeast, but we all spend have to spend the same amount of money on upgrading our facilities like it’s not like there’s a.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Jay Dougherty: a discount for buying techno alpine equipment if you live in the Midwest, or you’re here in the Midwest, or buying, you know, chairlifts. So…
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:51.000
Jay Dougherty: um, yeah, it’s a concern, and guys like Hagen are the… are… what can keep that alive, and come up with the solutions, um, for the future. I mean, like…
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:59.000
Jay Dougherty: it, for us, it just makes sense, too. Pine Island, New York’s not that far from Southern, like, it’s an hour and a half, maybe.
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. How worried are you about Hagen retiring and what’s going to happen after that?
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.000
Jay Dougherty: So.
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Jay Dougherty: Um…
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.000
Jay Dougherty: I mean…
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:22.000
Jay Dougherty: as with most lift manufacturers, somebody inevitably takes it over and takes care of it, but very concerned. I mean, the loss of, like, Hagen in the industry, if and when he decides to retire.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:36.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, it’s gonna be huge for… for the areas that it relied on. There’s a ton of part-tech lifts in the Northeast, and you find them at small areas like Mount Southington, and then private clubs, and things like that, and he’s still servicing all the old boardwreck equipment.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:47.000
Jay Dougherty: Which I know, like, many people have had issues with Borbug in the past, but truth be told, I mean, there’s a number of those installations that are still running from the mid-70s, so…
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:26:47.000 --> 00:27:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and one of them is right here. The Stardust, which according to LiftBlog is a 1978 Borvig triple. So you have one, two, three new lifts. Well, I’m going to say they’re, you know, anything built in this century, I call it new. And then you have this guy here. What’s your thinking on Stardust long term? Are you happy with it? Do you like it? Do you want to replace it?
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.000
Jay Dougherty: Exactly. Yeah.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Stuart Winchester: What’s popping around?
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:26.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so, speaking of Hagen, we’ve been working with Hagen, and actually, the new, uh, idler return terminal is actually sitting on site right now, and that’s getting replaced. So, we’re somewhat redesigning the unload of that area, we’re moving it downhill, gaining a little bit of elevation for now, and it’s part of, uh.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:35.000
Jay Dougherty: pretty much a three-year, uh, as of right now, it’s planned for three years. It could be a shortage, too. Um, planned full replacement of that list.
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, so, so, so you’re, you’re getting a new…
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:36.000
Jay Dougherty: So.
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:44.000
Stuart Winchester: So you’ll get a new top terminal, then a new… I mean, I guess just take us through the timeline that you plan.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:04.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so it’d be a new top terminal first year, probably a new bottom terminal the second and then towers in between the third. So unique to board big lifts, they have the hanging ship assemblies, right? So that changes, you know, the dynamic of your of your carrier, right? So you have a shorter with those hanging ship assemblies, you have a shorter hanger.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:14.000
Jay Dougherty: attached to your chair. Um, so for me to do… I couldn’t do the towers before I did the terminals, but I could do the terminals before the towers.
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, so that’s essentially going to be a brand new Partech lift.
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:22.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, essentially. I mean, there’ll be huge components in it. Um, the gearbox is…
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:19.000
Stuart Winchester: The the.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:29.000
Jay Dougherty: We’re in great shape still, so I think that would probably get repurposed into the lift, so… but other than that, yeah.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:43.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s an interesting strategy, uh, Lonnie Gleiberman, who runs Ischeria Mount Bohemia up in northern Michigan, he had some old riblets, and he replaced the top terminal and bottom terminal with SkyTrak terminals, and just left all the chairs and, uh…
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:51.000
Stuart Winchester: towers in place, because he said it was going to be another couple million dollars to do those, and he said I could just build another lift for that. Talk to us about the 3-year…
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:58.000
Stuart Winchester: construction? Is that just a money thing? Is that a labor availability thing? What makes you spread it over 3 years?
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:13.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, we do a lot in-house, right? I have a very talented team. Most of these guys, they’re 10 years or 10 plus years. I mean, we’ve been working together for a long time, so we know our abilities, we know our timelines, we know what we can fit in. Um, and me coming from the operation end, I know what’s, like, feas.
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:14.000
Jay Dougherty: So…
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Jay Dougherty: you know, we… when we… when we plan these things, yeah, there’s a financial component, because, like, just maintaining a ski area like this takes a lot, but we also have a lot of summer activity that goes on here. Last fiscal year, I think we did 39 weddings. Um, we have a summer camp.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:43.000
Jay Dougherty: for 9 or 10 weeks that operates out of here. Uh, and then midweek, we have sand volleyball and cornhole leagues, so there’s always something going on. Oftentimes, we’re busier in the summer than we are during the winter.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Really.
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:51.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, but that’s all part of the sustainability strategy for the skier, you know, you want to be able to absorb those, those bad years.
00:29:51.000 --> 00:30:05.000
Jay Dougherty: But, with all that activity, um, you know, construction periods get into smaller and smaller, uh, time frames, you know? You can’t be running site trucks by, uh, summer camp, you know what I mean? So…
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s it.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.000
Stuart Winchester: And do you guys self-install?
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, we assist with installation, like, obviously, um, but, I mean…
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:18.000
Jay Dougherty: I’ll hire somebody to put the towers in, I’ll, you know…
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I know it’s rare. The reason I ask…
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:26.000
Jay Dougherty: We’re very actively involved in installation, I’ll say that. It’s local concrete work, uh, local site work. It’s not, like.
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:33.000
Jay Dougherty: that, you know, Ropeway Construction’s helped us a ton. Randy Glennis has been a great partner of ours, so, yeah.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, most people don’t. The only reason I ask is I have Dennis Eschbach from Holiday Valley coming on later today, and he’s one of the few that has an in-house team that just, they drop the lift off and they put it up. It’s kind of amazing. So, you know, you said you were sticking, you know, you had a good gearbox and.
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Assuming that you’re just gonna have a, uh, replace Stardust with a triple, then?
00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:09.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, it’s going to be a trouble. It’s going to remain. In fact, the chairs will be repurposed. So those aren’t obviously the original boardwreck chairs that were on it. Those were flats, and they had issues with the chairs back in… that was probably about 2002. I think that was in College Way, and they replaced them with Partech.
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.000
Jay Dougherty: chairs at that time.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. So moving over to Avalanche, I don’t know if you followed a similar multi-year process with that, but interesting to me that you kept it as a double. We don’t build a lot of new doubles these days, just the ski industry in general. I mean, certainly like A-Basin built Pally.
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000
Jay Dougherty: We did.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Stuart Winchester: a few years ago, replaced with a double. Was that the same kind of thing where you were modifying, or was there another reason why you went with a double chair instead of upgrading to that to maybe a triple or quad?
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:47.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, so there was a lot that went into that decision, right? So, 2010, I want to say, that terminal at the bottom was replaced. So, there was originally a haul lift there. Um, I think it was, like, a 75 horsepower haul double chair. Um…
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Hmm.
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:54.000
Jay Dougherty: And… you know, it had some issues in the lower terminal, so we knew we had to replace that, so we…
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:11.000
Jay Dougherty: took the hall wheel at the time, had a new hub put into it, so it would fit on a gearbox, a, uh, Kistling gearbox, and we had Hagen build a terminal around… around that to service the hall, and we ran it for… well, right up until we did the… all the…
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:23.000
Jay Dougherty: last replacement of it. When that lift went in, it was designed that it could be a triple, so Hagen offered, like, two types of terminals at the time, and one could accept both a triple and a double.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:35.000
Jay Dougherty: Fast forward to 2011, and then time in between, ANSI standard changed. So your swing clearance has changed. Um, and that kind of brought in the issue of the lower terminal legs for us.
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Umm.
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:50.000
Jay Dougherty: And uh… so that was one of them. So I would have… if I wanted to change it to a triple at that point, it would have been a complete teardown of the lower terminal, new concrete, and a lot of… a lot of work that would go into that. Then you have the top, and if… I’m assuming you rode that lift when you’re here?
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Thunderbolt wasn’t running, but I rode the other ones. But this was actually before you replaced it, so I rode the old Avalanche.
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Jay Dougherty: Very tight.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000
Jay Dougherty: Yes.
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:04.000
Jay Dougherty: Okay, okay. So, when you get off the avalanche double chair, right, it’s a really tight spot at the top.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Oh, and suddenly that little hill, yeah.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:18.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, yeah. Um, so… one of the things that we salvaged out of that was the original concrete off the top. We had everything, like, NDT’d and tested, and we dug down to the base of the footing and all nine yards. Um…
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Jay Dougherty: And I got to thinking, I’m like, alright, if we’re gonna, you know, add a little bit of uphill capacity, because the difference in all reality between a double and a triple is not… it’s not crazy, it’s not… you’re not getting 33% more people uphill.
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.000
Jay Dougherty: um…
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:51.000
Jay Dougherty: it boiled down to, like, bang for the buck, and we accomplished this in a different way, and is this the ultimate, um, you know, top unloading for all of Mount Sinai? Can we try to stay, like, 5, 10 years ahead when we think about some of these things? And it’s like, well, we knew we had the Stardust triple up there, and.
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:16.000
Jay Dougherty: you know, that’s become more of the lift when we’re busy. Yes, the avalanche double runs during the day, because the easy to access lift for the you know, the older crowd that’s here skiing during the day. But anytime it’s busy, or there’s kids here. Family is adaptive programs. It’s mostly the starters triple. And really what you lose between the 2 lifts or lost before this year when we replaced doctor and all of.
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Jay Dougherty: Stardust was probably 2, 3 acres of terrain. That’s yeah.
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. Okay.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:28.000
Jay Dougherty: it wasn’t… it wasn’t that much. I mean, you can still access the primary terrain from the other way.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Stuart Winchester: And so you have good reliability to the top. It sounds like you’re going to improve it. Well, you said start us starting this summer with that new terminal.
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, oh no, the terminal’s on site, there’s no chairs on the line right now, it’s in progress.
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, great. Uh, oh, wait, so will that be in place for 26-27 ski season?
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:41.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, the top, the top of it, yeah. Just the top row, yeah.
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay. Okay.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, no, that’s awesome. Then, North Star is your most recent lift. So, this one’s interesting. You went from a double to a triple here. I think I know why, but just tell us about this lift and why you wanted to go triple over here.
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:09.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, again, our big focus is on teaching people to ski and ride, and, um, you know, when you have… and we have a ton of kids here.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:29.000
Jay Dougherty: So, uh, a double chair really didn’t make sense, like, it was, you know, for a, um, instructor to ride with only one student. Uh, or a lot of times you’ll get families, and the parents want to teach their kids how to ski, and you’ll get one parent that skis, and another that sits in the base lodge, and they’ve got two children with them, so…
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.000
Jay Dougherty: You know, triple makes more sense there.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:47.000
Jay Dougherty: Absolutely. So that that was the primary driver of changing that to a triple, and that lift was put in. You know the lift that that replaced was a salvage lift from Craigmere in New Jersey.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:35:47.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Jay Dougherty: Uh, many years ago, uh, which I was part of taking down. Um, yeah, so, like, steel has an age, and I’m gonna be the first one to tell you that. So that was one of the decisions of, like, where we’re, like, you know, let’s just get it and replace this.
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Were you really?
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.000
Jay Dougherty: So.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:12.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s wild. So that lift is, from what I can tell, it was installed in 76 at Cregmer, and then you guys put it in, I think, 01.
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:13.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:20.000
Stuart Winchester: And then when you took it down, Lost Valley, Maine took it, and they made it their chair 3, and I rode that chair last year, and I was like…
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Hey, is this the one they moved from Southington? Because this is… they did a really good job with it, but…
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Stuart Winchester: how did that whole deal happen? Were you like, dude, you’re crazy, this chairlift is, like, 50 years old?
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:39.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, I mean, so, Scott’s very talented, right? And, like, you know, his, um…
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Stuart Winchester: There.
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:54.000
Jay Dougherty: he knows everything there is to know about all grips, and he has access to a lot of parts, so… I mean, for him, it worked. Uh, for us, you know, like, with the volume of people that we do, and what our challenge was with that lift.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:07.000
Jay Dougherty: you know, I would say more of it into the functionality of the lift was the… was the reason for the replacement than the age. Yes, steel does have an age, like I said, but I mean, I think for me, it was more, you know.
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:14.000
Jay Dougherty: we need this because of the volume of lessons we’re doing, and, like, the pinch point it’s causing with instructors, so…
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. Yeah, you know, one of the arguments I hear from the larger operators.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Stuart Winchester: for the reason that they don’t sell older lifts, they’re worried about liability. You know.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.000
Stuart Winchester: I find that dubious. Was that a consideration when you…
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Sold.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.000
Stuart Winchester: To… to Lost Valley?
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:42.000
Jay Dougherty: No, I… you know, when you’re… when you write up paperwork, you can write it up as you’re selling it for scrap, and I don’t care what they’re doing with it afterwards.
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, right, right, yeah. And they have other halls up there, and there’s still a couple hundred halls running in the country. So, but it was probably good, nice for you to get rid of the last one you had. I’m curious about Snowflake, this little, I think this is the handle toe, and then you have the carpets over here.
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you like the handle toes still here, or are you gonna move to a carpet? What’s your thinking around there?
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:19.000
Jay Dougherty: So, Snowflake is actually a, uh, it was a conveyor lift, um, that was there. The handle tow that we had is over on Whoopi, and that’s since gone. Uh, that’s moved its way out west to tubing operation this summer. Um, and the conveyor lift that was on Snowflake, our crews kind of, uh.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:31.000
Jay Dougherty: redoing, and that conveyor is moving over to replace the Whoopie handle towel, and we have a new conveyor that arrived yesterday that’s, uh, replacing the snowflake, yeah.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Man, there’s a lot happening. So you’re gonna have, uh, four carpets.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, 4 conveyors, and then, yep.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so that’s… look, this is all really impressive, and if I…
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:59.000
Stuart Winchester: was looking at any skier area in the country, I think you probably have, top to bottom, one of the newer Lyft fleets, even including Stardust, right? And, you know, I cover skier areas all over the country, and a lot of times, there’s so much deferred maintenance, you get something like a Holiday Mountain in New York, where.
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:50.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Mike Taylor, I’m not sure if you’re acquainted with him, but he bought it, and it was just… it was a junker, and he had to do everything all at once. It sounds like Southington’s been able to keep up. And I asked this question, because I have a lot of people who listen to this who run skier areas or want to run skier areas. Is all this money.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:30.000
Stuart Winchester: to upgrade Southington coming from Southington, or is it… is there an outside business that helps feed in, or is it, hey, like, Patch Peak, the ski area, has to make a profit, even though the family owns a bunch of different ski areas. It’s, uh, you know, Patch Peak can’t take money from whatever their other businesses are.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:49.000
Jay Dougherty: Nope, it’s all from outside of it, honestly. And that’s, uh, you know, that’s the best part of it all, you know, like… And, you know, it’s having that strategy of how to continue operating under, like, all these outside pressures that we have. And, you know, we compete with everything.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.000
Jay Dougherty: Compute with video to complete.
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Jay Dougherty: everything that’s on the outside. We’re just very fortunate to have like that main artery that runs through Connecticut and I 84 makes us accessible. Honestly, that’s that’s one of the biggest drivers. So it’s helped us develop our after school programs.
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:13.000
Jay Dougherty: It’s helped us become the home for, you know, the high school race leagues.
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Jay Dougherty: all of those things. And, like, New York City, like, I can be down in New York City in, like, 2 hours.
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:29.000
Jay Dougherty: Yankee Stadium, whatever. And, uh, it… we get a lot of traffic from there. We get traffic from Long Island, we get traffic from Westchester County, Fairfield County.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:36.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, you name it. So, like, just being accessible has been, like, the key to the success of it, really.
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it really is. There’s not… There’s a lot of…
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:54.000
Stuart Winchester: good ski areas that orbit New York City, that that’s their main purpose. I, you know, Mount Peter is our go-to for my son for his seasonal program. Thunder Ridge, another one I mentioned. Uh, and there’s Camp Gaughan, New Jersey. But then, the Connecticut ski areas, I think, are great, and they’re actually…
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000
Jay Dougherty: that.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:01.000
Stuart Winchester: So, let’s… let’s wrap up on this today, Jay. You… last year, Southington joined the Snow Triple Play.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.000
Jay Dougherty: Yes.
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.000
Jay Dougherty: Right.
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:17.000
Stuart Winchester: And this year, you are on that product again, plus Snow Partners’ new Snow Pass, which has two days each at 16 ski areas. And just to lay this out a little bit for the listeners, the way that I see Southington feeding into this is it’s, you have Southington, you have Butternut.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then you have Bel Air, Gore, Whiteface. So you kind of got those beginner ski areas where people can hop around and learn and then go up to the more aspirational ski areas, I’ll call them. But just talk about those passes and snow operating and why.
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Because I imagine you could have joined IndyPass years ago, but why did you finally go with Snow Operating?
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:52.000
Jay Dougherty: So, we’ve had a great relationship with Snow Operating. Obviously, we’re a little later in the ballgame with the attorney-based learning, um, but we’ve had such good success with them, and such a positive relationship with.
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000
Jay Dougherty: with Joe and Hugh and that whole group, um, that it was kind of, like, the natural choice for us to go with them.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:13.000
Jay Dougherty: Um, last year, yeah, we were on the, uh, the Triple Play, which was kind of the product that came out of something they were doing at Mountain Creek for a number of years. And, you know, thinking about it, when you approached us with the idea, it was like, yeah, we’d love to attract new.
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Jay Dougherty: with folks, and, like, we share a similar demographic. Um, people go south to them, they come north to us.
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:24.000
Jay Dougherty: out of the city, or… or actually, they go a little bit west. Um, but…
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:36.000
Jay Dougherty: it just made sense, you know? And we did see a value last year in bringing new people to Southington, and I’m sure they saw a value with people in our general area buying that pass to explore their mountains.
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:41.000
Jay Dougherty: And the same kind of goes for the past now, right?
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Jay Dougherty: Butternut is the natural progression, like you said.
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Jay Dougherty: being from Connecticut and Southern Finland, I, like, have that true perspective on what the Connecticut skier explores, and growing up, and I can say this just in this general region, because I’ve lived it, like, we ski Vermont, right? Vermont, we ski New Hampshire, right? That’s it. New York’s not really a consideration. I think this is a great way.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:21.000
Jay Dougherty: to get people to explore. You know your belly, or your your core, your white face, whatever and and still butter, not being honest, butter. That’s also on the freedom pass with us as well. So like it. It’s it’s a great relationship. And you’re right, though, that is the natural progression. So.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:22.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah.
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you… so the Freedom Pass is a little newer, and Lost Valley’s on that as well. Do the… I guess you’re okay with the free days. Do you consider it sort of like a…
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:30.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.000
Stuart Winchester: New customer recruitment.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:52.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, in a way, it is. Um, but, you know, the industry as a whole, like, there’s a cool story, you know, sharing this whole, like, experience with everybody. Like, explore these small mountains, they’re unique in their own ways, like you said. Like, we haven’t cut many of our trails, our classic New England trails.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Sure.
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Jay Dougherty: Pico’s always been great for that, you know what I mean? Up north. So, like, keeping in a world of ski areas where.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:17.000
Jay Dougherty: some of the larger corporations have tried to standardize the feeling of being at those ski areas and having the same experience across the board. You kind of lose the individuality that makes us all so special. So for for Mount Silo that I like, I.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:31.000
Jay Dougherty: of course, I’d encourage people to go visit Lost Valley, go ride that chair that was here. Um, I think that’s good for the industry. I mean, it gives… shows people that there’s more than just your local hill, and there’s more than just the big, massive areas.
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000
Jay Dougherty: So.
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. All right, Jay, I think we’ll leave it at that for today. I really appreciate you coming on The Storm and breaking down Southington for us and correcting my pronunciation, which I’ve been saying it wrong basically my entire life. But hey, I’m only a couple hours away. I’m in New York City, so hopefully I can come up, take a run with you sometime this winter.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.000
Jay Dougherty: No worries at all.
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000
Jay Dougherty: Yep.
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:51.000
Jay Dougherty: Yeah, absolutely, I enjoy that. Thanks.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.000
Stuart Winchester: All right. Thanks a lot, Jay. Take care. Have a great weekend.
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Jay Doherty.
00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Repping Connecticut, that was awesome. Alright, let’s wrap up here today with a little bit of…
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Feedback…
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:12.000
Stuart Winchester: And then, let’s see.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:17.000
Stuart Winchester: My podcast with Doug Fish, which aired on.
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:30.000
Stuart Winchester: On Wednesday, I say aired. I always say things like aired and tape. I don’t even know if my kids know what I’m talking about when I’m like, hey, did you tape that? I guess they did. I guess the word is translated even though we don’t use tape anymore. All right.
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Commenting on the IndiePass episode, Mike Schulte says, love hearing from Doug Fish, he’s a marketing machine for the ski industry. I hope Snowvana can find a venue in Detroit or Cleveland, Ohio.
00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:56.000
Stuart Winchester: So it can get more Midwest exposure. I… believe me, I… look, man, I got the Michigan thing going here. I’m… I’ve been on Doug about Detroit. I think he… just has to find a venue. We’ll see. We’ll see. I don’t want to speak for Doug. Uh, but I can tell.
00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Jasu Branin says, sorry, tech challenged from… I relate. From Florida, coming to New York for New Year’s and taking a quick two-day trip to Whiteface to visit some buddies. Passing through the city from 1231 to 12, what was that New York boot fitter that you recommended or mentioned in a couple pods a long time ago?
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:24.000
Stuart Winchester: I want to get new boots for my growing teens. Yeah, so the boot fitter that I like is up at Hunter Mountain.
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:29.000
Stuart Winchester: And it’s not at Hunter Mountain, it’s in Hunter on your way to Hunter Mountain.
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:32.000
Stuart Winchester: And let me make sure I get the.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:35.000
Stuart Winchester: The name exactly right here.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.000
Stuart Winchester: So…
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.000
Stuart Winchester: So should I?
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Look this up before I.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Started on the pod, but it’s, uh… let’s see…
00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, I’m gonna have to come back to you on the name of the ski shop, but I will… I will drop it into the comment when I find it. It’s… I’m really bad at remembering the names of things, which is why I sometimes don’t remember the names of lifts or trails, because I have so many floating around in my head, so…
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Moving on here, Allison says, the pod helps me get through my post-lunch tiredness at work. The only issue now is that I want to go everywhere now. I guess I need to win the lottery. You know, Allison, uh, first of all, thank you for saying that. And, uh, and second, I’m sorry, I, I can’t.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:38.000
Stuart Winchester: uh, regularly put these out after lunch. The editing… the editing doesn’t take long, but the processing takes a while, we’re trying to speed that up. Uh, but, you don’t need to win the lottery to go everywhere, you just need to get a couple of passes, start with an IndiePass, get an IconBase or an Epic Local.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Actually, Mountain Collective and Indy go really well together. You get the big guys and the little ones. And then just kind of pot them up, you know? Plan a week where you can stay in one place and hit a bunch of ski areas. So, for example, if you had…
00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:06.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, an icon base in a, in an indie pass, you could set up shop in Northern Vermont off the interstate somewhere for a few days, and, and you could hit JP, you could hit Smugs, you could hit Walton Valley, you could hit Sugarbush, and you’d wanna buy a ticket for Mad River Glen anyway, because it’s.
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000
Stuart Winchester: So…
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s just, uh, it’s planning, more than anything. More than, uh, more than cash.
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Although it’s that, too. Noah H. Forrest says, loving the new format and the increased frequency of the podcast. Anytime we get to hear more from leaders like Doug Fish, John Schaefer, and Steve Wright, we are all winning. Thank you, Noah. I have not had Steve Wright on again recently.
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:41.000
Stuart Winchester: again, it’s another guy that I talk to frequently, and I should have on the podcast more often. So, that’s gonna be our show. We will be back tomorrow with a podcast with a conversation with.
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Holiday Valley.
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.000
Stuart Winchester: General Manager and President.
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Dennis Eshbaugh, who has been on the Storm before. Please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Skiing Newsletter.
00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:09.000
Stuart Winchester: You can start with the free tier and you can upgrade to a paid subscription, which is the best way to support the Storm Skiing Journal and podcast that will get you the ability to interact with this podcast by leaving a comment on the article on storm skiing.com, and it will also get you everything below the paywall.
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:20.000
Stuart Winchester: in the written part than the written post, which is about 80% of what I put out traditionally. Kind of easing into the podcast right now, so frequency of that’s been a little less, but it will ramp back up.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:27.000
Stuart Winchester: You can also rep the storm with a shirt, a hoodie, a hat, a bunch of other stuff at stormskiing.myshopify.com.
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:34.000
Stuart Winchester: You can follow The Storm on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok at Storm Ski Journal. We are trying to push out daily content there as well.
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.
Once Fish sold Indy Pass, he tried something even harder: replicating the success of his Portland ski show across the country. To me, that sounds even more impossible than fishing, and does not include the benefit of a cooler MGDs on the boat floor. But whatever is inside of Fish that made the Indy Pass work, it’s making the recently faded ski show work too.
I’ve attended Snowvana in Portland and Milwaukee, each time as a paid speaker. I’m scheduled to host live conversations with Indy Pass/Entabeni/Black Mountain owner Erik Mogensen (Friday, Nov. 6) and Killington owner Phill Gross and president Mike Solimano (Saturday, Nov. 7), at this year’s New England show. I don’t endorse Snowvana over any competing shows, but I do think ski shows in general offer a fun atmosphere, and a cool way to participate in skiing when you can’t actually go skiing.
Background
Fish has appeared on The Storm Skiing Podcast four times, each time solely as a representative of the Indy Pass:
Transcripts
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.
Zoom
Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder of the Snowvana Winter Kickoff Festival and also founder of the Indie Pass. Now in its 10th year, Snowvana gathers skiers, ski area operators, and retailers in Portland, Oregon.
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Stuart Winchester: Seattle, New England, and Wisconsin.
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Stuart Winchester: The Indy Pass, which Fish founded in 2019 and sold in 2023, but is still involved in, delivers skiers two days each at more than 300 ski areas around the world for winter 2026 to 27. He is making his fifth appearance on the Storm Skiing Podcast. He is Doug Fish. Doug, welcome back.
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Stuart Winchester: How’s it been? Been way too long.
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Doug Fish: It has to. I know. I miss you.
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Stuart Winchester: I know. Well, it’s been way too long on the pod, and I was just talking before this, in my little intro, before you joined, that this is one of the reasons I wanted to do a different format pod, because.
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.000
Stuart Winchester: I talk or text you all the time.
00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, yeah, no worries.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:39.000
Stuart Winchester: And I haven’t had you on the pod in 3 years. So, there’s no reason for that, because we love hearing from you, and your episodes always do really well. And we will be working together here a little bit on one of these Snovana appearances in a bit. We’ll get to that.
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:42.000
Stuart Winchester: First, though, I do want to pick up…
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.000
Stuart Winchester: where we left off in that pod three years ago. You had just sold IndiePass to Eric Mogensen.
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Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.000
Doug Fish: Get it.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, who has gone on to since, also by Black Mountain, and runs a technology company. He was on the podcast recently, and has been a couple times. Just…
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Doug Fish: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: First of all, tell us how you’re still involved, and give as candid of an assessment as you can of.
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Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.000
Stuart Winchester: where the Indy Pass is once you… once you let that baby go.
00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
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Doug Fish: Well, it was a little difficult to let the baby go, but I felt at the time that it would be in good hands, and I’m happy to report that it is in good hands.
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Stuart Winchester: No.
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Doug Fish: Um, you know, my country… my employment agreement ran out.
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.000
Doug Fish: Almost two years ago.
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Doug Fish: And I’m still involved, you know. Eric and I extended it, and we keep extending it, and…
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Doug Fish: I believe in in what he’s doing. I certainly believe in the past. I think that Eric has done a great job of.
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Doug Fish: Staying true to the mission and the brand promise of IndyPass.
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Doug Fish: And, um, you know, as long as that continues, I will… I will be involved in some capacity. I’m kind of the Colonel Sanders of the IndyPass now.
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Doug Fish: I and you know I get to be a little a bit of an ambassador. I go to some of the trade shows.
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Doug Fish: I ski with people.
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Doug Fish: It’s… it’s a pretty good gig, you know.
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Stuart Winchester: When you said Colonel Sanders, I mean, are you…
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Stuart Winchester: What I thought you were doing is still…
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Stuart Winchester: Recruiting new partners? Is that not the case?
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Doug Fish: Yeah, I’ve been. That’s what I’ve been primarily focused on recruiting and maintaining relationships, you know, and and helping grow from a hundred to 300 resorts in the last 3, 3 and a half years, which is pretty incredible growth. And.
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Doug Fish: you know, I can’t take all the credit, but, um, you know, when you can focus on just one thing, you can be a lot more effective, and I’ve been focused on that.
00:19:49.000 --> 00:20:04.000
Doug Fish: But Eric has assembled a great team, and I’ve kind of handed that that part of the the effort off to Nick Niebus and a couple other people on Eric’s team that are recruiting new resorts, and, as you can see from the latest release, that’s.
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Doug Fish: Going pretty well.
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Doug Fish: Um, and I, you know, I think there’s some other exciting news in the, in the, uh…
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Doug Fish: Uh, coming up in the future, I won’t spill the beans, but, um, you know, there’s always cool things happening there, and I’m just really thankful to be involved.
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Stuart Winchester: It’s been really fascinating to watch the evolution of not just the Indy Pass, but the Pass landscape as a whole. And coincidentally, we started our brands in the same year. Obviously, you’ve been at this game for a long time, but the Indy Pass launched in 2019, and that’s when I came around.
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Doug Fish: Mmhm.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.000
Stuart Winchester: observing the industry.
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Stuart Winchester: the pass landscape for as long as you’ve been directly involved in it. And I think the way I always look at this, Doug, is Vail normalized the notion of a multi-mountain pass as an everyday product for the everyday skier, not just a niche product for locals.
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Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:04.000
Stuart Winchester: And then ICON copied that model, and your contribution to it, which I think was…
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Stuart Winchester: Extremely important was.
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Stuart Winchester: taking that idea and normalizing the idea of the non-alpha ski area, non-destination ski area, and you do have some of those, you do. But…
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Doug Fish: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: the idea that if you put together Brundage and Mission Ridge and Silver Mountain and White Pass.
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Doug Fish: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: That would be an attractive pass together, right? Because those ski areas, they’re, they’re good, they’re big ski areas, they have lots of snow, but they’re not destination ski areas, they’re not things people would have thought to fly to, but you had this insight, okay, but if I put them all together, that’s pretty cool.
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Doug Fish: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: And so I’ll give you some numbers and I’ll let you react to this.
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Stuart Winchester: So, the first season of IndiePass, you launched with, you know, your first list of 10, and maybe you had 50 by the end of the year. Right now.
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Stuart Winchester: if you look at, uh, Epic, Icon, Indy, Mountain Collective, and the new Snow Pass from Snow Partners, there are 451 ski areas around the world.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, between those 5 passes. A little bit of overlap between a few of them. 267 in the United States.
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Doug Fish: Yeah, thank you.
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Stuart Winchester: 55 in Canada, 61 in Europe.
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and 53 in Japan.
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Stuart Winchester: I mean, as you…
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Stuart Winchester: As you kind of reflect on how this landscape has changed.
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Stuart Winchester: I’ve asked this before, but I’ll ask again, does this surprise you? I mean, how well this worked and how much it caught on?
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Doug Fish: No, it doesn’t surprise me at all.
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Doug Fish: It’s basic economics.
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Doug Fish: You know, lift tickets were getting super expensive, and.
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Doug Fish: a lot of people are getting priced out of the sport, and I mean, even if you want to ski at Vail resorts or Altara resorts. You know you you really have to get a pass if you want to ski more than a few days, and so it doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s just a it’s a good deal. Any pass is the best deal of all.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000
Doug Fish: You know, whether you use it as a regional pass, you know, you go 4 or 5 days in New England, or you take it and you hit the road and hit 25 resorts. It’s the best deal in skiing, and it always has been.
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000
Doug Fish: So, you know, people respond to deals. That’s…
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000
Doug Fish: That’s, uh, you know, the most of… most, uh…
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:39.000
Doug Fish: effective word in advertising is free and cheap comes a second, I think. So it doesn’t surprise me a bit.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:44.000
Stuart Winchester: So we’re starting to see a little bit of churn, and we’ve seen this since the days of the Max Pass.
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Doug Fish: Okay.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, you know, the Epic Pass and Mountain Collective sort of trading partners around. We’ve seen less of it, maybe, than I expected at the top end of Epic and Icon. We’re starting to see a little in Indy. You’ve had some partners leave, you’ve had some partners who have gone to different passes.
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Doug Fish: Yeah. Okay.
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Doug Fish: Yeah, exactly.
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Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Stuart Winchester: What do you… so, the reality is it’s a good idea, and people copied it, and that’s a free market, and that’s how compet.
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Doug Fish: Yes.
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Stuart Winchester: My question for you is, what do you think?
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Stuart Winchester: IndyPass has to do to make sure that it stays relevant, that the coalition stays together, that it stays an attractive.
00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.000
Doug Fish: Mmhm.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:26.000
Stuart Winchester: product for both skiers and ski area operators as Eric takes it into the future.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.000
Doug Fish: Yes.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.000
Doug Fish: Well, two things. I think that any of us, Lauren.
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Stuart Winchester: I’m sorry, can you repeat that?
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.000
Doug Fish: I apologize, too. I got a derm.
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Stuart Winchester: All good.
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.000
Doug Fish: Um…
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:51.000
Doug Fish: In order for Dandy Pass to remain relevant, they need to continue to be an affordable option for consumers.
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Doug Fish: and continue to deliver value for the resorts.
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Doug Fish: And value in, you know, the quality of the visitors, the guests, the amount of check they write, and the amount that they pay for each visit.
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.000
Doug Fish: And if they can continue to do that, then they will…
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.000
Doug Fish: They will outlive you and I both.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:28.000
Doug Fish: Um, and, you know, yes, we have over 300 resorts now, you’re bound to lose a few now and then. And, you know, we took a hit this year, a few people left, that was unfortunate, but we added…
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Stuart Winchester: Thank you.
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:38.000
Doug Fish: quite a few more. So, you know, it’s going great. I’m proud of what they’re doing over there, and I’m proud to be associated with it still.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:54.000
Stuart Winchester: So you’re playing… I mean, your name comes up all the time, as you said, from listening to the first few podcasts of this shorter version that I’m doing now, or trying to make them short, is… wow, everyone has a lot of opinions about Doug Fish, but so does Doug Fish.
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Doug Fish: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: So, so you’re clearly still living large in the minds of, of everyone who’s involved in the IndiePass or works with it, but you’re…
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Main focus, I think, now, is on Snowvana, which… I copied this language, I don’t want people to think I’m being corny, when I say it’s a winter kickoff festival. I copied that from your press release, because I didn’t really know what… like, I want to call it a ski show.
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Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:25.000
Stuart Winchester: but you seem to not want to call it a ski show. So, what is… what is Snovana, and…
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Doug Fish: Well, that’s a ski show.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.000
Stuart Winchester: And what are you trying to accomplish with it?
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000
Doug Fish: Good, good.
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Doug Fish: It’s all those things. It’s a enhanced ski swap. You know, you can call it anything you want, but, um, we started Savannah in 2016, so this is our 10th anniversary, and, um.
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:54.000
Doug Fish: You know, Snowvana is a place for everyone to gather at the beginning of the season, you know, and we certainly didn’t invent that. I think Warren Miller did.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Doug Fish: originally, and I remember as a kid going to Warren Miller films, and I was just in awe of of all that, and it was a just, you know, getting stoked for the coming season. It was just an annual pilgrimage.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.000
Doug Fish: And, um, you know, over the years there’s been, um.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:31.000
Doug Fish: you know, hundreds of ski shows, 50 ski shows across the country, big shows. And you know we we I have always been involved in events. I was in the concert business for almost 20 years, and my.
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Doug Fish: At the beginning of my career.
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Doug Fish: And, uh, I just, you know, when I was a kid and was in high school, we used to, you know, put on keggers and sell cups for a buck. So, you know, events are in my blood, and I love it, and…
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Doug Fish: you know, when I sold the IndyPass, I sold my marketing agency, but I kept Snowvana, because, you know, I thought it’d be fun to keep it going, and… and uh… the young man who…
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Doug Fish: helped me, um, helped me, um.
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.000
Doug Fish: Grow the Indy Pass.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.000
Doug Fish: Didn’t want to go with Indy Pass. He didn’t want to move to Colorado.
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Doug Fish: So I said, well, why don’t you come and run Snowball? And we’ll keep that going.
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:26.000
Doug Fish: And it was actually his idea to, um, to expand it. He said, you know, I think this is a model that we can scale.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:38.000
Doug Fish: And, um, you know, I looked at him, I said, okay, you do all the work, and I’ll help with the marketing, and I’ll finance the operation, and, you know, here we are.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.000
Doug Fish: That was, uh.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, so you’re doing… you started this 10 years ago, and you’re taking it around the country.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:50.000
Stuart Winchester: But you said ski shows have been around forever, right? So, you said there’s been 50, 100 ski shows.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.000
Stuart Winchester: How is…
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:57.000
Stuart Winchester: What happened to all those shows? Aren’t they still there? Are you still competing with them?
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000
Stuart Winchester: And if so, it doesn’t seem like a… like a market that’s super ripe for disruption, right? Like, once you…
00:28:58.000 --> 00:28:59.000
Doug Fish: Here.
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:16.000
Stuart Winchester: have a ski show, you kind of own the market, it would seem like. So, I guess rewind for us a little bit, maybe I should have started there. What have ski shows traditionally been in America, and.
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Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.000
Stuart Winchester: What’s happened to them over time?
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:31.000
Doug Fish: Well, ski shows have been, you know, what’s Nirvana? It was kind of a kickoff festival, a gear sale, and I think they kind of collapsed under their own weight.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:40.000
Doug Fish: You know, the Windy City Ski Show had a 40-year run. The Boston Ski and Snowboard Expo had a 60-year run.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:49.000
Doug Fish: uh, the Denver show. There’s been ski shows in all the major northern markets, even in, you know, Dallas had a big show for many, many years, Atlanta.
00:29:49.000 --> 00:30:03.000
Doug Fish: And, um, but the cost of putting on these shows, these big shows, 100,000 square foot shows, is just too much. And, uh, at the same time, as these big shows started to go away.
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:18.000
Doug Fish: ski swaps proliferated, you know, in every gymnasium and, you know, high school cafeteria across the country. You know, small ski resorts have a ski swap and a kickoff, you know, festival in the fall.
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.000
Doug Fish: All over the country, there must be hundreds of ski swaps.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:39.000
Doug Fish: And so we looked at that and said, well, you know, ski swaps are great, but you can’t get out of there fast enough. You know, when there you rifle through all the stuff and maybe you find a gym and you get a good deal, but, you know, there’s no reason to stick around.
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:55.000
Doug Fish: And what we try to do is create a festival atmosphere. We still have the ski swap. We have a consignment swap, which is a fundraiser for a local nonprofit. And then we have a huge gear sale and we work with local retailers.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:04.000
Doug Fish: So, you know, there’s a lot to choose from, but there’s lots of really good deals. And, um, but there’s…
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:16.000
Doug Fish: you know, there’s fun stuff to do, too. We have films, we have live music, we have a bar. Um, you know, we do stupid stuff like, uh, frozen t-shirt contests and barefoot skis.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:19.000
Doug Fish: Um, so…
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, there’s just, you know, there’s a lot of fun activities happening.
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.000
Doug Fish: And, um…
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:38.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so, so that’s, that’s all right, that’s all right. So.
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.000
Doug Fish: Sorry, I got interrupted too.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Is there a… is there an inflection point when the ski…
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:54.000
Stuart Winchester: show stopped working. I want to point to COVID in 2020 that probably killed a lot of them for a year and then forever, but that’s probably too simple of an explanation.
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.000
Doug Fish: Yep.
00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:00.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, COVID I think was, you know, put a fork in a lot of the big shows.
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:08.000
Doug Fish: Um, you know, a lot of promoters decided not to… not to come back. Um, but, you know, I think that the…
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:15.000
Doug Fish: It’s very tough. These municipal convention centers are just extremely expensive.
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Doug Fish: and I think you know that’s that was part of it. And you know, online sales. And you know all the all the things that kill retail right? Because these are retail events.
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:37.000
Doug Fish: And so, you know, we kind of, we took a year off for COVID too. In 2020, nobody was doing events.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:42.000
Doug Fish: Well, we came back in 2021 and it was our best show. We were the first.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:54.000
Doug Fish: show to come back and give it a go in 21 at the Oregon Convention Center. And the place was packed, and it was because people were just starving for.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Doug Fish: you know, human connection. You know, they’ve been cooped up in their house for a year, and they came out in droves. And, you know, this is what, you know, these shows give us, is that human connection.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Something.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:21.000
Doug Fish: You know you can buy skis online. You can buy anything online. But you know the the community comes together and and.
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Doug Fish: It’s, you know, we call it AI for the ski business, authentic interaction.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Doug Fish: You know, we need more of that, not less of it. And it’s…
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Doug Fish: It’s just a it’s a cool thing.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:51.000
Stuart Winchester: So how are you getting around the cost piece, though? I mean, if you want to — they left Chicago because of cost. It seems like that’s because Chicago costs a lot. So you’re going into Boston this year, and we’ll talk about that in a minute. That’s not a cheap market.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:00.000
Doug Fish: No, well, we’re going into the suburbs. We’re hitting the suburbs now, you know, we’re in West Seattle, in a suburb of Seattle.
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.000
Doug Fish: Uh, we’re in a suburb of Milwaukee and Franklin, Wisconsin, and we’re in a suburb of Boston, out in Marlboro. It’s about 40 minutes west of town.
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:19.000
Doug Fish: And they call it, uh, West Metro. And, um, you know, these venues are smaller.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.000
Doug Fish: They’re about 50,000 square feet versus 100.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:37.000
Doug Fish: and they’re way less expensive. We don’t have to deal with union. You know the cost of a union labor, and you know nothing against unions. But.
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:52.000
Doug Fish: they can drive the cost up. And and you know, General Motors and Ford, you know, they can do an auto show there. No problem. They’ve they’ve got deep pockets. We can’t. And I think that’s why some of these big shows, you know, finally threw in the towel.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:59.000
Doug Fish: And, you know, the venues we’re in, they’re not as fancy. We’re in a World War II airplane hangar in Seattle.
00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:14.000
Doug Fish: you know, at a in a in a park in West Seattle. It’s a really cool building. But believe me, you know, it’s it’s it’s not fancy. And so that’s the that’s the difference. And and.
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:25.000
Doug Fish: we’re able to charge 5 bucks in advance. Kids are free. The booth cost is reasonable for for vendors, and.
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Doug Fish: You know, it works.
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you… the timeline’s interesting for those who are following along. So you started Snovana in 2016, launched Indie in 2019. I’m curious…
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:44.000
Stuart Winchester: how one may have fueled the other. In other words, and I know you’ve been in skiing and in the ski industry for decades, but…
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Once you…
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:58.000
Stuart Winchester: established IndiePass, and you made all these connections all over the country, I have to imagine that greased the wheels a little bit for Snowvana, because a big part of this, and we’ll talk about this in a minute, is.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:07.000
Stuart Winchester: when you go there, most of the regional ski areas have booths set up. And not just the Independents, it’s Vail and Altera, I’ve been at a bunch of the ones that I’ve been to.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.000
Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:12.000
Stuart Winchester: In their mountains, in the bigger mountains, all over the place, so… so…
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you think, I guess…
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:24.000
Stuart Winchester: I guess the question is, how did IndiePass fuel the growth of Snowvana, or do you think that this would be taking off the way it is either way?
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:33.000
Doug Fish: Oh, I think Snowvana and the work we were doing at the agency with a number of ski resorts all led to the.
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Doug Fish: the idea behind the Indy Pass.
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000
Doug Fish: And certainly the IndyPass connections that I’ve made have helped us expand.
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:52.000
Doug Fish: Snowball on it. There’s no question. You know, we just we’re moving into the Boston market this year for the 1st time, and we have 37 resorts signed up.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:59.000
Doug Fish: That’s pretty good for a first-year show. We have 70 resorts across the country. I think it’s closer to 80 now.
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:08.000
Doug Fish: And, you know, it’s the only place where you’re gonna see, uh, Epic Pass, Icon Pass, and Indy Pass all in the same room.
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:16.000
Doug Fish: And, um, you know, that’s the way it should be. You know, we want to be Switzerland and invite everyone in, because that’s what the consumer wants.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:27.000
Doug Fish: you know, people want to want to interact with all those companies. And and so yeah, indie pass. There’s no question it. It helped us.
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.000
Doug Fish: You know.
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.000
Doug Fish: break into new markets.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:46.000
Stuart Winchester: So if you look at the four markets you’re in this year and, you know, Portland is the logical one, that’s your home base and has been for a long time. Then you have Seattle, you have Milwaukee in the Midwest, and you have, you know, we’ll call it Boston or New England or whatever you want to. It’s in Mass.
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000
Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000
Doug Fish: Yep.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Right? So, one thing I always appreciated about the Indy Pass is that you didn’t just make it a Western Pass, you went into the Midwest right away.
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.000
Doug Fish: Mmhm.
00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:13.000
Stuart Winchester: You went into New England right away. So talk about each of those four markets and, and why it makes sense to do ski shows there because for, for example, in the Midwest, you could have, you could have gone to Detroit, you could have gone to Grand Rapids, you could have gone to Chicago, you could have gone to Indianapolis.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.000
Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:23.000
Stuart Winchester: chose Milwaukee, which is, you know, everyone’s heard of Milwaukee, but it’s not necessarily, like, the capital of Midwest, like Chicago is. So just talk us through those markets and your…
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Slow expansion across the country, and you’re kind of thinking behind where you’re choosing to do this.
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, good question. Um, so Seattle was a no-brainer. You know, we knew that we were drawing people out of Seattle for the Portland show. It’s three, three and a half hours to Seattle.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:48.000
Doug Fish: And we were drawing a pretty good crowd, so… uh, there hasn’t been a show in Seattle for a decade. It’s a great ski market, you know, they have…
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:55.000
Doug Fish: 3 phenomenal resorts within an hour of downtown Seattle, Stevens, Crystal.
00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:11.000
Doug Fish: Summit. That’s no qualming help at all. So you know, we found a venue up there that was affordable, you know, an old airplane hangar. And you know, we put a show up there, and it did well. And so we thought, Okay.
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:18.000
Doug Fish: Uh, we didn’t really want to go to California, uh, so we started looking east because.
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.000
Stuart Winchester: You, you didn’t wanna go to California, why not? I mean, that’s a huge market.
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:30.000
Doug Fish: Um, yeah, it is a huge market, and, you know, maybe we’ll go to the Bay Area. There’s a big show down in LA called Ski Dazzle that’s still going, a big show.
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.000
Doug Fish: And, um…
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Doug Fish: Uh, but to my knowledge, nothing significant in Northern California, so we may go there someday. But, um, you know, where we… where we went, it’s really…
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:52.000
Doug Fish: you know, I knew that the Indy Pass was going to be successful back east because there’s so many resorts, and more importantly, so many people.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.000
Doug Fish: And, and so.
00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:03.000
Doug Fish: We started looking to the east and Milwaukee, you may think, well, that’s kind of a weird place.
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Doug Fish: Wisconsin’s the number four ski state in the country in terms of number of ski resorts. And Michigan is number three. So, you know, or maybe it’s number two, but yeah. So, you know, there’s a lot of passion in the Midwest. And I knew that from working with the resorts out there.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s 2.
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:35.000
Doug Fish: you know, Rick Schmitz has been a great ally and supporter of mine, and you know we’ve been friends for many, many years, and he said, Hey.
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.000
Doug Fish: Uh, come and do a show in Milwaukee, and I’ll help you promote it, and…
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:54.000
Doug Fish: you know, there just happens to be a big sports complex right there at the base of Crystal Ridge, which he owns. And, um, you know, they had space that would work for a show, so we popped a show in there, and it worked.
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:10.000
Doug Fish: Um, and then we were all set to go into Chicago next, you know, kind of an eastward progression, uh, either Chicago or Detroit, and, um, I got a call.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:17.000
Doug Fish: from a friend of mine in New England. They said, Hey, Snowbound is leaving Boston.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.000
Doug Fish: You guys should come out here and do a show.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Doug Fish: And I thought, oh my gosh, that’s the best ski show market in the country, you know, it’s been going for 65 years. And so Quinn McIntyre and I jumped on a plane in early December, when there was absolutely no snow, by the way, in the West.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Doug Fish: And so we, of course, took our gear, and we spent a week in New England skiing some phenomenal powder at Loon, and Jay Peak, and Bretton Woods, and Black Mountain, and, you know. But we also, you know, met with a few venues back there, and found one that made sense out in Marlboro.
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:09.000
Doug Fish: Uh, a nice suburb of… of Boston, and… and made the decision right then, okay, we’re gonna do this. We signed a 3-year lease, or 3-year contract for… for the space.
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:14.000
Doug Fish: And here we are. We’re in Boston.
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so to, so to clarify for listeners, Snowbound still exists. It moved to the Mohegan Sun.
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Casino in Connecticut. So that show, indeed, will still go on.
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:29.000
Doug Fish: Yes. Yeah, they didn’t go away, they just moved… they just changed locations, and… and they’re a couple hours from Boston now, so…
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so…
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000
Doug Fish: Thank you.
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000
Doug Fish: Go ahead.
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:48.000
Stuart Winchester: So each of these shows you go to and, you know, the gear is great and I’m sure that’s why a lot of people go. I’m obviously super into the ski area, so when I go and I look at the deals tab on Snovana.com, the first thing I see at the top of each.
00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:05.000
Stuart Winchester: list of ski areas that will be there, and their deals are free lift tickets for Willamette Pass, when you’re out in the Western shows, uh, I believe in the Midwest, you get one free at Little Switz, or Nordic, or Crystal Ridge, then out East, it’s Black Mountain Maine, and there’s some others as well, I’m just…
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:02.000
Doug Fish: Yep.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Doug Fish: Okay.
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Highlighting some. So, talk a little bit about…
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.000
Doug Fish: Mm-hmm.
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:25.000
Stuart Winchester: that, because, I mean, you pay $5 to get in, and this is… it’s funny, because it’s kind of a throwback to the pre-pass era, when you kind of have to collect your own pass, and find all these coupons, and, you know, Warren Miller would have, like, a free ticket to Sugarbush or whatever, so… so just talk a little bit about that, and what.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, right.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.000
Doug Fish: Yes.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.000
Stuart Winchester: attendees can expect to find their deals wise.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.000
Doug Fish: Oh, yeah. Well, that’s what motivates people is deals. We say the deals are great and the stoke is free.
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.000
Doug Fish: And yeah, I, you know.
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:45.000
Doug Fish: Can’t help but mention in Boston, we have Black Mountain of Maine.
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Doug Fish: Neshoba.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:44:03.000
Doug Fish: and Mcintyre, all giving away free lift tickets for your with your admission. And yeah, so 5 bucks, or for 5 bucks you probably get. I don’t know. That’s 200 bucks worth of lift tickets, and that that’s before you know all the other swag that people are giving away.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, sure.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:14.000
Doug Fish: So, yeah, I mean, it takes a lot to get people off the couch to come down and park and, you know, go to an event. And, excuse me.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:19.000
Doug Fish: So we try and pack as much value into the ticket as we can. Um…
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:39.000
Doug Fish: And all the resorts are there with deals. There’ll be 37 resorts in Boston and 70 across the country. They’re all offering deals of some kind, whether they’re selling a season pass for a discount or a three pack or a daily lift ticket.
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.000
Doug Fish: And that’s what people want.
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000
Stuart Winchester: 8. Yep.
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:52.000
Doug Fish: And, you know, those are just the lift tickets. The gear is… the deals on the gear is what really brings people in.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Doug Fish: And, um, you know, we can… I can confidently say that we’ve got some of the best selection of new and slightly used gear for 40% to 80% off.
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:14.000
Doug Fish: And, you know, we spend all summer collecting it from manufacturers, from reps, from, you know, demo fleets.
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:30.000
Doug Fish: And the retailers that we work with in each market, they also, you know, they bring last year’s stuff that didn’t sell. They bring maybe their lease fleet that, you know, they’re retiring. And there’s just some incredible deals, and…
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:36.000
Doug Fish: You know, people will walk out saving hundreds of thousands of dollars.
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:40.000
Doug Fish: If they can spend the time, you know, looking around.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so, lip ticket deals, gear deals, another thing you’ll find there, uh, at least at the Boston show, is me and I will be doing live interviews on Friday with Eric Mogenson, the owner of IndiePass and IntoBenny. Then on Saturday…
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.000
Doug Fish: Yes.
00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:13.000
Stuart Winchester: I will be hosting live on stage at Snovana Boston, or Suburban Boston, or New England, or whatever you want to call it. The owner of Killington, Phil Gross, and also the president, Mike Solomano, who I’ve had on my podcast before, but this will be our first live event. This is the third time I’ve done this sort of event.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.000
Doug Fish: Uh-huh.
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:20.000
Stuart Winchester: For Snowvana, I did one last year with Lonnie Gleiberman of Mount Bohemia at the Milwaukee show, and I did one.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:29.000
Stuart Winchester: I think maybe it was the year… two years before that, in Portland, with a panel of general managers. It’s been a lot of fun, and… and, you know, that’s a…
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:46.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s a disclosure. I’ve worked, I guess, for Snowvana because these, you know, I don’t do these things for free. It’s, it’s a, it’s a business, you know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a business deal. And, um, and those things take a lot of work, as you know, but, but that, that’s just one example. All right.
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000
Doug Fish: No.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Talk about just…
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:59.000
Stuart Winchester: I guess quickly just run through the dates of the other shows, and the sorts of things that people can expect to be on the stages, or other things I haven’t mentioned yet.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000
Doug Fish: Yeah.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000
Doug Fish: Excuse me.
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:08.000
Doug Fish: We don’t spend a lot of time with speakers. You’re kind of the only one, Stu.
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:12.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s not true. Sean Suttner, my friend, is doing one the next day.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:12.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, the great Sean Sutner.
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:23.000
Doug Fish: Yeah, Sean Suttner from the Worcester Gazette and Telegram will be there on Sunday interviewing the ownership team from Wachusett.
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Crowley’s.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Doug Fish: But yeah, I mean, we have live music. We’ve got, you know, frozen T-shirt contests this year. We’re launching the pray for snow dance contests. And we’ve got this thing called the Sumo Bowl. It’s a inflatable boxing ring and 2 inflatable beer cans. You put these on your body, and.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:50.000
Doug Fish: you try to knock your buddy down, and if you do, you’re entered to win a pair of skis. I mean, it’s just stupid stuff, but people love it.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Right, right.
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Doug Fish: And so those are happening at all the shows. Great gear sales, lots of resorts, free lift tickets. The great Stu Winchester in Boston this year.
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:15.000
Doug Fish: And and then, you know, we’ve got this thing called the cream of the swap. It is a special section in the gear sale.
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Don’t oversell it.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:30.000
Doug Fish: in the ski swap where we feature a lot of higher end product, mostly, you know, brand new 2627 demo skis. It’s all mount. They’re all mounted. They’ve been skied 2 or 3 times.
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:38.000
Doug Fish: And there’s just some incredible deals there, 40% to 50% off on essentially brand new gear.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:53.000
Doug Fish: And, um, so you’ll find those features at all of the shows. Each market, you know, had some slight differences and, you know, based on what’s going on locally and how the venue’s laid out, but…
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Doug Fish: You can go to our website and check out what’s different in each show if you want, what the different deals are. All the deals are listed.
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:10.000
Doug Fish: Uh, that, you know, the resorts are giving away, or the retailers are giving away for, you know, discounting.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so don’t hold me to this, because they could change, so check the website, please, before you go. But right now, I’m scheduled to interview Al… Excuse me.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Eric on Friday, November 6th at 5.30pm Eastern, and Phil Gross and Mike Solomano of Killington at 2pm on Saturday, November 7th. Those are in Marlboro, Massachusetts. So the… the only thing that I think we can hold Doug to at this point.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:44.000
Stuart Winchester: is… is the dates. So, Seattle, Washington, October 16th to 18th, at Hangar 30 in Magnuson Park.
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, the Portland show is October 23rd to 25th at Portland Expo Center, where it’s been for several years.
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Doug Fish: Mmhm.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:50:06.000
Stuart Winchester: The show that I’ll be at will be in Marlboro, Massachusetts, November 6th to 8th at the Royal Plaza Trade Center, and you wrap the season in Franklin, Wisconsin at the Crystal Ridge Ski Area, or the Mosh Performance Center, November 13th through 15th, and again, we won’t.
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:13.000
Stuart Winchester: resorts and everything else, because I’d imagine you’re adding more all the time. You do have a special treat for my listeners, Doug.
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Doug Fish: Yes, we do.
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:16.000
Stuart Winchester: If they want to go to any of those, right?
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:22.000
Doug Fish: Yeah. Thank you, Stu, for having me on, and thank you to your listeners for, you know, listening to this podcast.
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Doug Fish: Um, if you want to go to Snow Vaughan and check it out, because you’re a fan of Stuart Winchester, you can get a free ticket.
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Doug Fish: And oh, the code. So there’s a promo code. Go to our website, snovana.com, and, you know, click on Buy Ticket, and the promo code that’ll get you a free ticket is THESTORM26. THESTORM, all lowercase, 26. You should put that up on the screen.
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:49.000
Doug Fish: Stu, um…
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Stuart Winchester: I will have my editor do that.
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Doug Fish: Okay, good. And, uh, yeah, get a free ticket, come down, get some, you know, some swag, some free lift tickets, and find a deal on a pair of skis, or a snowboard.
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, any… so that’s for this year…
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.000
Stuart Winchester: You have any sense of where you want to go next?
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:14.000
Doug Fish: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we’ve got Philadelphia booked for 2027 through 2019.
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:33.000
Doug Fish: We will be in the King of Prussia suburb of Philly. Quinn McIntyre, my colleague, is from Philadelphia, so he’s pretty stoked about that. And so we’ll be there, and then, you know, we’re looking at some other potential.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:34.000
Doug Fish: expansions.
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, and do you anticipate these 4 locations returning for 27, or is it too soon to say?
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:55.000
Doug Fish: Oh, yeah, we anticipate all of them just, you know, going gangbusters this year, and we’ll be back, but, you know, it’s like an election. You never know how it’s gonna go until election day, and uh…
00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, Doug. Well, look, I appreciate you coming on the show again. I never know where I’m gonna see you next. You mentioned you were in New England last December, and I had gone up there for the Ski New Hampshire media event they hold every December, and…
00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:56.000
Doug Fish: So…
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:23.000
Stuart Winchester: I turned around at one point, and there’s Doug Fish and Quinn walk through the door. I was like, the last thing I… the last people I expected to see at the Ski New Hampshire media night, because you guys are usually, uh, locked into the West Coast at that time of year, but… but it was a pleasant surprise, so, uh, next time I see you, hopefully.
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.000
Doug Fish: Bye.
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Doug Fish: Yeah. Okay.
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Doug Fish: Yeah, hopefully it will, Stu, and it’s always a pleasure. It’s great to be back on the show.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:33.000
Stuart Winchester: You too, man. Talk to you soon.
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Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Doug Fish, founder of IndiePass and Snovana.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Let’s do a little quick reader react, listener react, and then we’ll get outta here for today. So there you got some reaction to the podcast that I put out on Monday with Pajarito, New Mexico, general manager Jason Bellamy.
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Stuart Winchester: Gary Luft says, as a New Mexico local, I am pumped about Powerito getting these upgrades. I’ve been a pass holder at Ski Santa Fe, but this year I’m going with MCP’s Power Pass. Thanks to Stuart for giving some attention to our great unknown.
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Stuart Winchester: to those outside of New Mexico, mountains. You’re welcome, Gary. I, uh, love all ski areas, and I’m sorry I have not given more love to New Mexico in the past, though I have done a couple of Taos podcasts. So the Power Pass, for those who.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:32.000
Stuart Winchester: don’t know what Gary’s talking about is… is Mountain Capital Partners owns about a dozen ski areas, including two down in Chile, and… and…
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:48.000
Stuart Winchester: The power pass is, is basically their epic pass, right? It’s the unlimited pass at all of their mountains, not unlimited at the Chilean ones, but you can see all the footnotes on their website. Uh, the point is it, it, there’s three different versions and the cheapest version, it’s 4 49 right now, I believe.
00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:05.000
Stuart Winchester: gets you unlimited access to Pajaritos, Sapapu, and Sandia Peak in New Mexico, and it gets you quite a bit of access at MCP’s other resorts as well. The full unlimited version is unlimited at all of MCP’s U.S. mountains, including really, really good ones like Purgatory, Arizona Snow Bowl.
00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:18.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ve also got Lee Canyon on there, which is a super gorgeous ski area outside of Las Vegas I talked about the other day. And again, the PowerEater upgrades he’s referring to are… PowerEater’s just putting in this massive snowmaking system that’s…
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Doubling is a fire suppression system, so it’s, uh, it’s super… it’s a…
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Partnership with local governments that they’re doing this through. So it’s, it’s a really cool model that hopefully other ski areas around the West can learn from and copy. Jeremiah Kay says, interesting episode. I think wildfire mitigation will be an increasingly important component of helping get snowmaking permitted in the West.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:50.000
Stuart Winchester: 100% agree. Jeremiah Kay continues, The ski school and MCP episodes back-to-back got me thinking about urban opportunities to learn and progress as a skier.
00:54:50.000 --> 00:55:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mostly because I always thought MCP should acquire the Outpost Ice Rink at the base of the Sandia Tram, and put their version of the indoor part of Woodward in that facility.
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Would love an update episode on the state, urban, indoor… uh, state, I think he’s saying state of urban slash indoor ski areas. I know you covered Big Snow well, not sure what happened to Alpine X.
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Stuart Winchester: Much like Epic and Icon add small feeder hills, I wonder if they will add something like Snowbond to a past product.
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:38.000
Stuart Winchester: A little surprised we don’t have Woodward Brooklyn in a warehouse somewhere. Yeah, I think, Jeremiah, that that would get back to Doug’s earlier comment about why the urban ski shows mostly died. It’s just the expense. You don’t… and the Brooklyn warehouse, as you well know.
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.000
Stuart Winchester: is not inexpensive.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:55.000
Stuart Winchester: thing to find these days, even though they still look like they’re 150 years old, because they are. I don’t know what happened to AlpineX, either. I check in with them for an update once in a while, and they keep answering my emails, but there’s nothing to report. I would imagine they’re caught up either in permitting.
00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:13.000
Stuart Winchester: or financing hell, and probably both. Continuing, Allison says, this pod does a great job showing the appeal of smaller, out-of-the-way resorts. Thank you very much, Allison. That is a core part of the storm. I love ski areas, large and small. Patrick says, I had to rewind to double-check after listening to the first 10 minutes.
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Stuart Winchester: You recapped the exciting things MCP has done while mentioning every ski area except Arizona Snowball. Later, it made more sense. You discussed Snowball specifically with Jason and called out the potential for Power Rito to follow the same transformative storyline, and you probably planned that all along.
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:42.000
Stuart Winchester: This was a great interview about a skier I’d love to check out one of these days, and maybe snowmaking will make it more feasible. Yeah, you know, Patrick, it’s interesting. There’s a little nuance there in that that big snowmaking project?
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Stuart Winchester: I believe all happened before MCP bought Snowbowl, so I hesitate to give them credit for it. I do give them credit for all the things they’ve done since, you know, putting in the Chadala and.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:12.000
Stuart Winchester: really revamping that ski area, and… and uh… I think the power pass and everything else has been great for it, and I think MCP’s doing a… a great job across their portfolio, so… so you’re right. It was… it was, uh, something I didn’t get to till later, and… and I’m always…
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000
Stuart Winchester: a little bit…
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:22.000
Stuart Winchester: indecisive about how much credit they should give her, but I am working on a separate podcast that’s going to focus on that, so stand by for that.
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Scott Abraham…
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Stuart Winchester: Bajarito, Powerito, Powerino, don’t care what AI calls it, had one of the best powder days of my life 15 years ago or so. Girlfriend in Santa Fe, who worked at Los Alamos, drove her up on Thursday and headed for the mountain, 2 feet afresh since they closed Monday.
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Over the groom, helly skiing quality, amazingly friendly locals who were delighted to show off their mountain to the tourists from Seattle, and green chili on my inexpensive burger, of course. Might have to visit her again this winter and sneak up on Thursday. Alright, Scott’s a tough critic, so…
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Stuart Winchester: if he likes something, uh, that’s a good sign that it’s probably pretty good. So that’s an endorsement, uh, from someone who typically complains about everything.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, Aiden says, in the last comment, I was referring to Scaria operations and management programs when he said SROM, or similar at several colleges. Thanks again for the great work. So Aiden was referring to a previous comment he made in an episode when he said, uh, you should find out more about SROM programs in your…
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:27.000
Stuart Winchester: And I said, you’re right, I should, because I have no idea what they are. All right, thank you, Aiden, for clarifying that. That will be our show for today.
00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Ski Newsletter. You can start with the free tier and the very best way to up to support my mission of independent ski journalism is to upgrade to the paid tier, which will give you the ability to interact with the podcast and all of the written content.
00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:50.000
Stuart Winchester: below the paywall, which typically is about 80% of the storm. Been a little slow lately, but like I said, it will pick up.
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Stuart Winchester: You can rep the storm.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:05.000
Stuart Winchester: like this hat if you’re watching, uh, with hat, shirt, hoodie, go to stormskiing.myshopify.com. Please follow the storm on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube, at Storm Ski Journal. Till next time, stay well, stay safe.
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:21.000
Stuart Winchester: I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon. No show tomorrow on Thursday. I’m recording a couple on Friday. We’ll put one out Friday, one out Saturday. That’s the plan anyway. General managers of Mount Southington, Connecticut, and our good friend Dennis Eshbaugh.
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Stuart Winchester: who has run Holiday Valley in New York for decades.
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Stuart Winchester: Till next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.
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Stuart Winchester: All right, sorry, you’ll have to smooth me out a little at.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay, so, uh…
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Stuart Winchester: Just a couple notes.
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Stuart Winchester: Um…
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Stuart Winchester: There’s, uh…
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Stuart Winchester: At the end, Doug says a discount code.
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Stuart Winchester: Storm, lowercase, 26, and he wants us… he said, put that up on your screen. I said, I’ll ask my editor to do that.
McBrosephs I have takes. Just remember that when I go in on the Bros, it’s more self-reflective diary than attack on American culture. Though it’s also that. And when I go in on Vail, it’s acknowledging the good things they’ve done to democratize the season pass even as the company destroyed a perfectly good product that it now wants to summon as a savior.
The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast will adopt one hamster for every new paid subscriber. Just kidding hamsters are weird I once watched one give birth and systematically devour her offspring. No thanks dude I’ll take the rats that live under my porch. What’s good, Fat Boy? Anyway if you like skiing subscribe to my newsletter because I like it too:
Those three words underwhelm, but the stat sheet suggests that skiers miss out by dismissing New Mexico:
Those are respectable vertical drops, and some nice acreage with modernizing lift fleets. Taos gets all the Ikon/Mountain Collective destination attention, and deserves it, after building seven new aerial lifts and otherwise sweeping the place clean over the past dozen years. But just about every New Mexico ski area is investing: Angel Fire props up the state’s first sixer for winter 2026-27, just a year after dropping a second quad, Rake’s Rider, onto its east side to spread skiers out between blues and blacks:
Ski Santa Fe, Ski Apache, and Red River have collectively built or relocated another five lifts in the past decade. Tiny, super-south Cloudcroft seems like a mess, with little online presence and minimal operations (the bump lacks snowmaking). But overall, New Mexico is a bit of a big-mountain secret, with dry desert snow when it comes.
The key to this improbable kingdom is base elevations among the highest in America:
It’s not quite Colorado, but they’re high:
And it’s high enough to get us to nine active New Mexico ski areas in 2026, which is probably nine more than most people think the state has. But even cloud addresses are not enough to keep these survivors around forever. They need snowmaking. Taos’ system - a big part of the mountain’s modernization under billionaire Louis Bacon, who bought the ski area in 2013 - runs to nearly 11,000 feet. But the smaller areas are building more firepower too. MCP, which operates one-third of those ski areas, stapled together a nice system at Sipapu, the company’s first acquisition, in 2000. Now, after years of negotiations, MCP is working with state and Los Alamos County officials on an $18 million snowmaking modernization plan for Pajarito:
A five-mile pipe will shuttle water approximately 2,000 vertical feet up from Los Alamos to Pajarito’s summit reservoir. But this is not just a snowmaking project: firefighters will be able to tap hydrants along the five-mile route or dip the 10-million gallon reservoir with helicopters.
The impact, MCP officials believe, will be substantial, and could mirror the turnaround of the company’s Arizona Snowbowl ski area. Prior to running a 15-mile-long snowmaking pipe 3,000 feet up from Flagstaff, Snowbowl’s seasons swung wildly, from 162,000 visits in winter 2000-01 to just four operating days the following season. Now, Snowbowl is consistently one of the last ski areas in the nation to close, with a 185-day 2024-25 season that ended on June 1. Repeating that success at Pajarito would, according to officials, give skiers seasons up to 140 days long - more than double the ski area’s traditional 60-day winter.
So yeah, ski New Mexico, Man. It’s weird, I know. Down there in the desert. But there’s water if you get creative and work together. (Now we just need to see if MCP can repeat some version of this deal at snow-starved Sandia Peak.)
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio. I only included my conversation with Jasen in this transcript - you can read my editorial on MCP or my reaction to reader’s comments in the other transcript, but frankly I’d either listen to them or skip those sections.
Zoom
Stuart Winchester: My guest today has been the general manager of Powerito New Mexico since 2023.
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Stuart Winchester: Bajarito’s predecessor ski area, Sawyers Hill, was founded by top American scientists and soldiers working on top secret research, including the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos during World War II.
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:46.000
Stuart Winchester: In 1957, the Los Alamos Ski Club moved the facility up to Pareto, where today, 5 chairlifts serve 1,440 vertical feet on 280 skiable trail acres, plus glades. Pareto is one of 13 ski areas operated by Durango, Colorado-based Mountain Capital Partners.
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Stuart Winchester: and one of three that the company operates in New Mexico, including Sipapu and Sandia Peak.
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Stuart Winchester: Prior to joining the team at Power Reno, he worked at Saddleback, Maine, Sugarbush, Vermont, Pratchett, New Hampshire, and all the way back at the start of his career as a lifty at Waterville Valley, New Hampshire. He served a tour in the Marine Corps and spent several years working in air traffic management technologies.
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Stuart Winchester: Jason Bellamy is my guest. Jason, welcome to The Storm. So good to have you. How is life in the mountains of New Mexico today?
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Jasen: Oh, man, thanks for having me. Super excited. Uh, busy. And wet, currently.
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, yeah, yeah, it’s… I’m out on the East Coast, it’s been raining all weekend, so… so I… look, I know you got a ton going on, so let’s jump right into it. The headline, if you go to Powerito’s website right now, which, by the way, if I’m saying the name of the scary wrong, you.
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Stuart Winchester: 2700% more water for snowmaking, so lay this out for us, Jason. What did Powerito’s snowmaking system look like before, and what are you…
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Building up.
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Jasen: So, historically, it was about 2010 that we were able to.
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Jasen: while it was still operated by the Los Alamos Ski Club, they put in a very bare-bones snowmaking system.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:10.000
Jasen: and captured surface runoff in the springtime to fill a 10 million gallon pond at the top of the mountain.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Jasen: The runoff did not yield enough water to fill that pond.
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000
Jasen: So for…
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:35.000
Jasen: pretty near a decade, there’s been this effort to get a pipeline connecting the county to the Ski Hill for both wildfire suppression and firefighting capabilities, as well as solidifying the future for the Ski Hill.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:43.000
Jasen: That pipeline is going to provide us with about, we’ll be able to cycle that pond about six times a winter.
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:55.000
Jasen: Um, which, with 60 million gallons, we should be able to make about 300 acre-feet of snow. So, theoretically, when we’re done with this, we could cover the entire mountain with 12 inches of man-made snow.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:13.000
Stuart Winchester: So talk about, I guess, to start with, just that pipeline. I mean, there’s echoes here of Arizona Snowbowl, your sister mountain, which ran a pipeline all the way down to Flagstaff from its mountain. And from the press materials, it looks like this is being run up.
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Stuart Winchester: from Los Alamos. So how long is that pipeline? Where does it start? And what does the effort look like to put that in?
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.000
Jasen: Yeah, great question. Um…
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Jasen: The project started over half a decade ago, the real nuts and bolts of it. It’s a really complex project. It involves running that pipeline across DOE land, Llano property, Santa Fe National Forest. We had to get the county, the state, and the federal government.
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Jasen: behind it, and it’s amazing how everyone’s come together. So, after about five or six years of negotiating and all the legal work required, we were able to break ground. The pipeline’s about five miles long, and as a result of previous wildfires that have sparked up from the overhead power lines, we decided to go ahead and put the power underground as well.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.000
Jasen: Um, so…
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:16.000
Jasen: The… we’re also running fiber infrastructure in the road associated with the project so that we can create backhaul to Albuquerque to solidify our communications for the community as well.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.000
Jasen: There’s a lot more going on with this project than just water.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Jasen: Oh.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.000
Jasen: The…
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:36.000
Jasen: there’ll be 4 booster stations to push the elevation to get it to the mountain, and then it’ll tie into a 250,000 gallon tank, which will energize all the fire hydrants along Camp May Road.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:42.000
Jasen: And then from there, we push it to the summit pond out of a pump station.
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:52.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so we’re looking here at the, at the map of, uh, here’s Puerto Rico and then here’s Los Alamos. Does the, does the pipeline come from up from the.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:59.000
Jasen: It does. It starts down just on the corner of the DOE property at the bottom of Camp May Road.
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000
Jasen: It’s a few thousand feet down, um…
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.000
Jasen: Once you get…
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Jasen: Yes.
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Click around, here’s Camp May Road, where it meets up with West Road.
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.000
Jasen: So, on… on…
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:21.000
Jasen: Yes, uh, just to the, uh, I guess that would be east on West Road. If you scroll your mouse to the corner there, you can see there’s a tank right there.
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:29.000
Jasen: We built another half million gallon tank there, and then that’s where the first booster pump will reside.
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Well, that is a major project. I mean, just talk about the effort of that. I, you know, I guess it’s a partnership. Did you share in the cost of construction of all this? And what did it take to run a pipeline five miles?
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.000
Stuart Winchester: And I’m not sure what the elevation is it starts at, but I imagine you have to also push that water up.
00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:06.000
Jasen: It’s close to 2,000 feet of elevation gain, and it is a financial partnership. It’s probably one of the first of its kind where we’ve got federal, state, local, and private dollars to accomplish the mission.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:10.000
Jasen: It’s really just amazing to see the support.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:17.000
Jasen: And everything come together. Los Alamos and Mountain Capital Partner developed a.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:22.000
Jasen: an agreement. So, the state was, uh…
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:29.000
Jasen: basically funded with a grant, the project, um, for $8 million, and then FEMA’s kicking in.
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.000
Jasen: Um, so…
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:40.000
Jasen: an amount to be determined to bury those power lines. Historically, Los Alamos has been very affected by two, um, huge wildfires.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:53.000
Jasen: With hundreds of millions of dollars in, um, asset loss. So, the water getting up there, and Parito, the way it sits, is kind of like a frontline defense to protect the town and the lab.
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:54.000
Jasen: Oh.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:59.000
Jasen: So, it’s amazing that everything’s come together the way it has.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I want to linger on that water point for a moment here, Jason. You know, I never really appreciated this until I was talking to some of the guys who run ski areas in Southern California, and I believe this is your pond right here.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, which you anticipate being full, and I’m not sure if there’s an older picture, if that’s what.
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:12.000
Jasen: Yes, it is.
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000
Stuart Winchester: So so.
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Jasen: That’s pretty current.
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, so this is Google Earth. So I was speaking with Robbie Ellingson, who runs Mount Baldy, right above Los Angeles, and Carl Kabasinski, who runs Mountain High, just there, I guess, a little bit east of the city. And the way they explained it to me, I never thought about this, was…
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:41.000
Stuart Winchester: When they have these full ponds in the summer, the helicopters can just come and dip the pond.
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:57.000
Stuart Winchester: ponds for fire suppression. And so I, I guess that would help answer the question of, you know, we always hear about water shortages in the, in the West, right? So, so how is the ski area building, you know, all this snow making, don’t we have better things to use water for? So, so just talk about that relationship.
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, with… with the, uh, firefighters and… and the firefighting infrastructure this is creating, as well as being useful for snowmaking.
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Jasen: But yeah, you brought up two interesting points there, sir. First and foremost, yes, they will be able to dip out of the pond. We’re also putting in a dry hydrant so that we can hook pump vehicles up to it.
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Jasen: Um…
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:32.000
Jasen: The other thing, I think Mountain High in California, one of the things they did when that fire came through there was they energized their snowmaking system in the summer and just turned on all the snow guns.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Jasen: And from what I understand, that that had a beneficial…
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:50.000
Jasen: outcome. Um, it could have been a lot worse, apparently. So, there’s a bunch of different things, and we’ve got water now that we can push, you know, multiple locations across the mountain as we build out our pipelines.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:44:01.000
Jasen: in our snowmaking infrastructure. So we’re gonna put water across this 750-acre piece of land that is pretty critical in the defense of Los Alamos.
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:08.000
Jasen: And then the other thing you mentioned, which I hear a lot, is how can we waste all this water for skiing?
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:21.000
Jasen: But fundamentally, if you consider what mountains are, they’re a storage device for water during the wintertime. We take the water from the earth, we pump it up the hill, yeah, we’re using energy, but we’re conserving the water on the hill.
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:36.000
Jasen: as stored water, and in the springtime it melts and goes back into the aquifer. So 80 to 90 percent of the water that we use is going to go directly back into the land. I mean, what we’re losing is what we lose to sublimation through evaporation into the atmosphere.
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and in the fires in the past where a couple of Poweritos lifts were damaged, having this on site would theoretically have at least mitigated the damage to some point. So what I have up on the screen here, Jason, as you know, but for the folks watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube.
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Stuart Winchester: is, uh, your phased snowmaking plan. So just talk us through this. Is this year one, year two, year three, or… or how do you… how do you envision or plan for this to play out in real life? And then, you know, here’s…
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Pario’s trail map for reference, but just to see the snowmaking plan.
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:24.000
Jasen: This was originally the concept that we were going to roll with. Like any major project, there’s speed bumps in the road.
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:35.000
Jasen: So we’ve had to pivot a little bit. Um, we’re putting a lot more resource into the actual delivery of water in year one, so we had to scale back a little bit of the on-hill distribution.
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:43.000
Jasen: For this winter, we’re gonna add about 50% in snowmaking coverage, acreage wise.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:50.000
Jasen: Uh, we did not get into the pump stations. We’re working on engineering and design of, um, future pump stations.
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.000
Jasen: Right now…
00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:02.000
Jasen: We’re at about 1,000 GPM, gallons per minute, for production pumping capacity, and next year we plan to increase that by 400%.
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:07.000
Jasen: Um, final design build out of 4,000 gallons per minute.
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.000
Jasen: which…
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.000
Stuart Winchester: And yeah.
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.000
Jasen: Oh, I’m sorry, go ahead.
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:29.000
Stuart Winchester: So, final of 4,000 gallons per minute. You have some trails in white here that are not phased. Do those already have snowmaking, or do you want to keep some stuff natural? I see your famous kind of front four steepies here. A couple of those are white. So, talk to us about the white trails and what’s planned for those.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.000
Jasen: So, those will just be… those will be El Natural?
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:41.000
Jasen: Classic, you know, old school bump runs and let Mother Nature take care of those.
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:49.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, so another interesting thing about Pyroido, Jason, is…
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:57.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s the only major New Mexico skier area, other than Angel Fire, that does not operate, as far as I understand it, on U.S. Forest Service land.
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:12.000
Stuart Winchester: So who does own the land? You referenced a lot of different entities here. I know there’s a partnership with the county. Does MCP own the land? Was that given to the county? Take us through the land ownership and the sort of different parties that are involved here and have an interest.
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:17.000
Jasen: So, the land historically was…
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Jasen: Um, owned by the Los Alamos Ski Club.
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:28.000
Jasen: Through over the course of time, they did some land exchanges with DOE.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:32.000
Jasen: So back in 14 when the ski club needed support.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000
Jasen: Um, James and Mountain Capital got involved, and originally, MCP was going to assume the liabilities of the ski area and operate the ski area. The bank didn’t like that arrangement, so it took about 3 or 4 years to get through the legal work.
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:58.000
Jasen: And currently, the majority of the land is owned by MCP. That was a requirement from the bank to transfer the liabilities against the assets.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:05.000
Jasen: And then there’s one shoulder over on the west side that was originally part of, um…
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.000
Jasen: I believe it was the Dunnigan family owned it.
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:17.000
Jasen: And they gave it to the ski club, and there was a first right of refusal on any future transfer of the west side.
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:32.000
Jasen: So currently, we’re still working through the legal details on that. And in the transfer of the land, the ski club said once the pipeline was established and operational, that they would be willing to transfer the remaining land to MCP.
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:39.000
Jasen: So that’s happening here pretty quickly, and there’s still… there’s a bunch of legal work to satisfy the first right of refusal.
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:46.000
Jasen: Um, but essentially, Parrito, the 750-acre parcel, is completely privately owned.
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:48.000
Jasen: Oh.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.000
Jasen: Which is pretty rare in the West.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. So you’re a little late to snowmaking, but it’s… in some ways, I would think…
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:01.000
Stuart Winchester: an advantage to install a snowmaking system, kind of…
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:17.000
Stuart Winchester: from whole right now, because the technology’s gotten so good, right? You can start low energy, you can start with automation, if you want. Talk to us about who you worked with, whether it’s SMI or HKD or whoever, uh, to plan out your snowmaking system, and what sort of technology.
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:21.000
Stuart Winchester: you’re able to deploy to make sure you get the most snow out the most efficiently.
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000
Jasen: Yeah, great question. So, the partners that we’ve most…
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:33.000
Jasen: We worked with, uh, Torrent is working with us on some of the pump stations.
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:46.000
Jasen: The pipe design layout, electrical. Brandon, I’m sorry, Jeff and the guys from Slope Works have been here supporting the physical installation.
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:55.000
Jasen: And because of the history of Puerto Rico, we originally had a — it was a TechnoAlpin system. So we’ve got some legacy TA gear here.
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:04.000
Jasen: And then, we’ve also started working with SMI on some of their equipment. One of the things that, um…
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:11.000
Jasen: we’re balancing is… there’s so much need in terms of how much infrastructure we have to build and how much equipment we have to purchase.
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:16.000
Jasen: So we’re kind of balancing the future with today’s needs.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:22.000
Jasen: Automation is not inexpensive, so we’re doing kind of a semi automation.
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:34.000
Jasen: where we can run actuators on the hydrants, but it’s not a full-blown system. The original system that was installed back in the early 2010 period, um…
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:41.000
Jasen: That system didn’t work out very well for Power Reno, so we’ve pivoted and moved in a different direction.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:58.000
Stuart Winchester: So, you know, you’ve had snowmaking for a while. I’d imagine you got some guys who are pretty good at it. I saw one of your videos, you brought in a fellow from Pennsylvania. I always say that Pennsylvania is home to some of the best skier operators in the world because they have to be masters.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:14.000
Stuart Winchester: of snowmaking, because if you don’t have it, you’re just not going to open. I know you’re an East Coast guy yourself, so what have you done as far as, okay, you got this great new system, have you brought in some folks who are more experienced with snowmaking to help out? Are you confident you have the experience yourself?
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:18.000
Stuart Winchester: What’s your plan to make sure you get the most out of the system right away?
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:36.000
Jasen: So we got Brandon on board and one of the things that’s challenging at every skier across the country is staffing. So for this winter we really need to nail it and we reached out to Seasonal Labor Solutions.
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:42.000
Jasen: And they have a team of professional snowmakers that basically do the Never Summer.
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:55.000
Jasen: Um, so after the guys get done making snow for the Birds of Prey up in Colorado, a couple of those guys are gonna come down and support us this winter for the season to make sure that we get it right.
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Awesome, so they’re coming straight to you from Beaver Creek. That’s… that’s impressive. That’s good. And, you know.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:00.000
Jasen: Yeah!
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Tell us how much it helps to be part of a larger group like Mountain Capital. I’m particularly interested because this Arizona Snow Bowl.
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:24.000
Stuart Winchester: story just amazes me, how they… and I realize this was done before MCP arrived, but they ran the pipeline all the way up from Flagstaff, and, you know, Arizona Snowbowl, in the 2001-2 season, was open 4 days, and did 3,000 skier visits.
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Last year, even in a bad winter, it was open 134 days, 185 the season before that. They keep it open until June a lot of years, and that’s a sister mountain of yours. So we’re talking about Arizona, you know, high desert.
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Probably, I would imagine, a pretty similar climate to what you’re dealing with. How much have you learned from talking to them, and how valuable is it to have that support sort of in-house, so to speak?
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.000
Jasen: Oh, yeah, it’s critical.
00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:10.000
Jasen: It’s funny that you picked up on that. The storyline behind Power Rito and Snowball, I mean, you couldn’t draw a more parallel story. It’s the same thing. And realistically, you know.
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:18.000
Jasen: what they did in Arizona is exactly what we plan on doing in New Mexico. Um, the…
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:27.000
Jasen: Part of that is, you know, our philosophy is skiing first, and it’s, you know, as soon as we can open, and as long as we have snow, we’re gonna run a chairlift.
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:39.000
Jasen: And I do believe New Mexico is ripe for the picking. I think Puerto Rico is slated to become the king of spring. There’s a lot of great mountains here, but everyone shuts down like the first or second week of April.
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:43.000
Jasen: And that’s not the vision that we have for Power Reno at all.
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:49.000
Jasen: Well, we plan on having margaritas on the deck, Cinco de Mayo, and hopefully a lot.
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:51.000
Jasen: Few more weekends after that.
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:55.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so Pat Ridley, looking back at historical skier visit data was.
00:53:55.000 --> 00:54:10.000
Stuart Winchester: One of the least busy ski areas in New Mexico, you know, Cloudcroft obviously barely operates, but uh someone within MCP whispered to me that they think that Parito within a few years could be the busiest ski area in New Mexico with these upgrades.
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Is that is that the aim?
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:16.000
Jasen: That’s… that’s kind of the goal, yeah.
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so how thorough will the transformation be? Because I saw this in some of your materials. Power Radio averaged 60 days open per season. You want to increase that to 120 to 140. Does that mean… I’m not sure if you go 7 days a week right now, and you have the snow, but…
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:36.000
Stuart Winchester: But just talk to us about what that could mean for the skier if you’re able to achieve that.
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:45.000
Jasen: Well, I mean, there’s so much to unpack there. I mean, the economic impact for the community, the labor…
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:46.000
Jasen: um…
00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:52.000
Jasen: Bottom line is, yes, we are going 7 days a week, effective this winter.
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.000
Jasen: um…
00:54:54.000 --> 00:55:05.000
Jasen: And the plan is, you know, Thanksgiving, as soon as we can get open. Two years ago, we got a monster storm, and I think we were the only skier in the southwest other than Wolf Creek open.
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:11.000
Jasen: And we were busier that day than we were the previous winter. So there’s the demand.
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000
Jasen: Oh.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:22.000
Jasen: So, from the very first cold snap, and we’ve designed and built the new snowmaking system that we put in this year to be able to open it with about 40 hours of snowmaking.
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow.
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:33.000
Jasen: So, we’re looking to do things quite a bit differently, and be super aggressive. Uh, and the plan is, you know, we’ll run 7 days a week into April.
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:44.000
Jasen: And then as the demand tails off, and the snow starts to melt, we’ll run weekends until we just can’t anymore. So, my goal is Thanksgiving to May every year.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay. And what’s the, what’s the sort of alpha trail that opens first, closes last? I don’t know, maybe they’re different.
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:52.000
Jasen: Uh, it would be Pussycat.
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.000
Jasen: It’s kind of shaded, it’s in between the two peaks.
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.
00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, is that one of those, uh, double black bumpers off of the mother lift?
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:07.000
Jasen: No, it’s off of Aspen. It sits in the saddle between Aspen and Mother. Um, it’s a blue square.
00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:11.000
Jasen: But it’s a really great fall line trail.
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so let’s talk about the Aspen lift. So the Aspen lift was one of those ones that was damaged in the 2011 fire. It is, uh, a 1982 SeaTac triple 1,143-foot vertical rise, 3450 length, so a pretty substantial.
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:36.000
Stuart Winchester: lift, and, and I think your most important lift out of your base. So, so you got a lot, you’re, uh, spiffing that lift up. Take us through Aspen and what you’re doing with it this offseason.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:43.000
Jasen: Yeah, so as you pointed out, um, our historical average is about 60 days. Um, that lift.
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:45.000
Jasen: um…
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:54.000
Jasen: Because of the limited seasons, we looked at that lift and said, you know, all this snow in the world isn’t going to do us any good if we can’t get the people to it.
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:06.000
Jasen: So, we went through… we have major lift projects in the works, but we have to do this piece by piece. The first piece was get the water. Second piece is be able to use the water.
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:16.000
Jasen: So as a stopgap for the meantime, we went through and rewired the entire lift, all new controls, new drive.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.000
Jasen: New hydraulics for the brake systems.
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:23.000
Jasen: We just did the return bull wheel bearing this summer.
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:33.000
Jasen: Basically, everything short of the steel and the carrier has been updated, and the goal there was really reliability.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:39.000
Jasen: So when you show up to Puerto Rico this winter, you’re not gonna see a sexy new lift, but you’re gonna have a very reli.
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:55.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so Aspen Triple’s getting an upgrade, and then your rest of your lift fleet, you have 3 doubles. Uh, this Beginner is an 81 Seatech. Uh, Mother is a 76 Riblet double. Uh, Spruce…
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:14.000
Stuart Winchester: is a 69 riblet double, and then Townsite is a 94 quad, so I imagine you’re pretty happy with Townsite, but what are some of those projects that you’re eyeballing? What can you share with us, Jason, about, ultimately, I mean, because once you double the season, the revenue should follow, right? You should be able to make some investments.
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:18.000
Stuart Winchester: What would you like the Lyft fleet to look like, ultimately, at Pareto?
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:32.000
Jasen: I think currently we’re looking at, um, the next… the first focus would be updating Motherlift, um, and I do suspect, based on conversations that we had, that that lift, uh, winds up being a detachable.
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:38.000
Jasen: Townsite, I’m really glad you brought that up. That’s a 1994 Lyft.
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:43.000
Jasen: That exposure got heavy, uh, burn scars during the fires.
00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:48.000
Jasen: And that lift, as a 94, doesn’t even have 4,000 hours on it.
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow.
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:53.000
Jasen: So that lift is in pretty, pretty new shape in terms of wear.
00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:05.000
Jasen: Um, so, the big focus right now, the next piece is, uh, getting the mother lift done, uh, with the new lift, and we’ve got some other things that we’re talking about doing in association with that.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:15.000
Jasen: That peak overlooks the Valle Caldera, which is an absolutely amazing, breathtaking piece of New Mexico landscape. So there’s a lot of…
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:33.000
Jasen: a lot of opportunity with the detach. Um, discussions around Chandler have been thrown around. Um, the idea being is, you know, from the top of that peak, having a, um, potentially a banquet, um, event center at the top of the lift, and being able to use that in the off-season for.
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:38.000
Jasen: Dinners and different type of corporate functions and stuff like that.
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, everyone I talk to, Jason, just tells me that weddings are going off. They’re so busy, they can’t keep up. It’s just, it’s such a natural thing, and now folks are starting to think about it, especially in the East. It’s really popping. Any thoughts on spruce? I mean, I love an old riblet double.
00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:04.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, they look cool, uh, there’s a couple hundred of them still spinning, but, you know, probably won’t last forever. Any ideas for spruce long-term?
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:13.000
Jasen: I think, Spruce, that lift, uh, based on the parking lot, there’s a stairwell that goes right up to it. It’s a really popular lift.
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:27.000
Jasen: It’s a redundant lift. You can ski off at Aspen and get the whole middle of the mountain, but that lift does have tremendous value. That would probably be the second lift that we look at.
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:38.000
Jasen: The timing on that, I’m not sure. We haven’t really gotten that far in the master planning. Um, but based on that profile, I would imagine that that becomes a fixed-script quad.
01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. And, and do you like where the lifts are? You like the layout? They, they did a good job that your predecessors or, or do you wanna move anything around, like as far as where it loads or lands?
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:58.000
Jasen: I think there might be a slight realignment on the mother lift. That lift doesn’t truly go to the top of the… there’s a few feet of elevation that you can gain.
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:04.000
Jasen: so that the alignment would kind of come down between, um, Mother… Big Mother Trail and Pussycat.
01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:11.000
Jasen: And land a little bit closer to the base area, in that triangle of trees at the bottom there.
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:14.000
Jasen: And the…
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:26.000
Jasen: But realistically, I mean, the scientists and all the folks that worked on this project back in the day did a really great job of laying out the mountain.
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Is there, yeah, go ahead.
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:28.000
Jasen: And…
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:38.000
Jasen: Oh, I just… the other thing I think that’s kind of cool to know, I don’t think that there’s a larger ski area in the country that was built by volunteers.
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I don’t think so either. There’s a lot of, uh…
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:50.000
Stuart Winchester: of ones that I’m sure you know from your time in the East that were started with Civilian Conservation Corps, but that wasn’t volunteer, those was putting men to.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and I… most volunteer-built ski areas are, like.
01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:11.000
Stuart Winchester: A rope tow and a couple of trails like this is, this is impressive. I, I cannot believe what they did here is, you know, looking around and I, and I know you explained the land situation. Is there any potential for expansion in any direction or, or is this the footprint that you’re working with for the foreseeable future?
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:59.000
Jasen: Yeah, yeah.
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.000
Jasen: There’s…
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:26.000
Jasen: A couple things. So, Camp May is a campground. The county has approached us about doing a management agreement. With the water line, they’re going to be able to put water in.
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:30.000
Jasen: It’s a primitive campground right now. It’s beautiful.
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:33.000
Jasen: A lot of people come up here to escape the heat.
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:34.000
Jasen: um…
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:43.000
Jasen: The way this bowl is laid out, it’s amazing. When I first got out here, we had, you know, we were skiing on 60, 70 inches of snowpack, and the mountains…
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.000
Jasen: That we’re looking at.
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:56.000
Jasen: are completely bare. It’s just the sun angle. Uh, it’s… coming from the east, it’s just… it’s pretty trippy. But, um, I think we’re pretty much…
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:04.000
Jasen: the footprint that we’re in right now is pretty much, I think, about what it’s gonna be, just because of the aspect.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:08.000
Jasen: And, you know, where we can hold snow.
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, two more quick things for you, Jason, I’ll let you go. This one’s kind of for your more hardcore. I saw in one of your posts that the Crazy Mother Terrain Park was being, uh, quote, regraded into a regular run. Does that mean you’re not going to have a terrain park at Barrio this season?
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:32.000
Jasen: No, the exact opposite is true. With snowmaking, it gives us the ability to ensure that we can build quality parks.
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:48.000
Jasen: One of the things that I am really passionate about, I grew up ski racing, so getting consistent seasons so that we can host USSA races, support USASA, we want to have events and we want to grow.
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:54.000
Jasen: the foundation for our sport to make sure that it survives for the next several generations, so…
01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:03.000
Jasen: Those pieces, the train parks, the available train for ski racing, and all the ancillary stuff that comes with that, we’re 100% behind.
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:17.000
Jasen: I’ve got… I saw a lot of pushback, and I’ve heard a lot of pushback about the Crazy Mother Train Park getting bulldozed down. The problem was, is that stuff hasn’t… hadn’t been used in years. Um, they built some really big stuff, and it was too…
01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Really?
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:21.000
Jasen: It was too large. We didn’t have progression to get to that level.
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:26.000
Jasen: When we need something like that, we’ll build it again.
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:40.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ve heard the same thing from operators all over the country. Those big ones, they’re impressive and people like to look at them, but in reality, they’re expensive and not a lot of folks use them or have the skill to use them. So that’s a pattern I’ve seen all over the country.
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, so the last thing I wanted to touch on here, Jason, I mean, I…
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:52.000
Stuart Winchester: I mention this every time I talk about MCP, but I think it’s hard to… I can’t mention it enough. I mean, the PowerPass…
01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:56.000
Stuart Winchester: This thing is unbelievable. Kids 12 and under are free.
01:04:56.000 --> 01:05:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Everyone. No parent purchase required. And right now, the PowerPass Core, which is unlimited at your ski area in Sipapu and Sandia Peak, and has lots of access to the other ski areas in MCP’s portfolio, it’s $449. I mean, it was $299 if you grabbed it early.
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Stuart Winchester: But talk a little bit about that power pass, and do you think people in Los Alamos really get it? Like, kids 12 and under are free, do you hit the schools, do you hit that hard?
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:14.000
Jasen: Yes.
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:28.000
Jasen: We do, um, we… it’s amazing how the message just doesn’t resonate loud enough.
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:35.000
Jasen: But when you look at our organization, Skiing First, like, that’s real. That’s like the Bible.
01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:39.000
Jasen: And one of the things I think everyone within the organization looks at is.
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:55.000
Jasen: How do we strip back the barriers to access? Price is number one. So the 12 and under ski free, I mean, that’s just something that the entire organization just firmly believes in. We want to cultivate and grow our sport, and we feel like there’s no better way.
01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:58.000
Jasen: Than to get kids involved at an early age.
01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:01.000
Jasen: And then the pass pricing for, um…
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:13.000
Jasen: Every year that I’ve been with MCP, springtime comes around and the pass pricing discussion comes up, and it’s not even a discussion because, like, they’re not increasing pricing, and they’re really proud of that.
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:19.000
Jasen: Another thing that we’re doubling down on this year, which is really cool, is $9 Lyft tickets.
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.000
Jasen: I mean, 9 bucks, with a $10 resort credit.
01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:25.000
Stuart Winchester: We’re basically free.
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:29.000
Jasen: We’re paying you a dollar, you know?
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:32.000
Stuart Winchester: That… and is that… that’s not every day, is it?
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:47.000
Jasen: No, that’s… it’s limited availability, but when we launch, um… I think Purgatory, Snowbowl, and Brian had a launch ticket, so if you hop on the computer right now and you say, I want to go ski on such and such day, you can get a $9 ticket with a $10 resort credit.
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s incredible.
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:53.000
Jasen: It’s not gonna last all winter, but… I mean, the deals are out there.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.
01:06:53.000 --> 01:07:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and you have, uh, so is it a… when you have a $9 day, is there a limited number of $9, and it goes up to $10 or $11?
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:08.000
Jasen: It’s incremental. Yeah, it’s an extremely dynamic pricing system.
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:03.000
Stuart Winchester: et cetera.
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:06.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, well…
01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:12.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s… and have you… have you rolled those out yet at Pareto?
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.000
Jasen: We plan to launch our tickets in the next couple weeks.
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, do you know how many days we’ll have that $9 price?
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Is it, like, one or two, or is it, like, dozens.
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000
Jasen: No, in October, it’ll be, like, 80% of the season.
01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh my gosh, okay. All right, well, set your timer. All right, I’ll leave us with this, Jason, because I have a lot of listeners on the East Coast.
01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:29.000
Jasen: Yeah.
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:53.000
Stuart Winchester: And who have never skied Parado. I imagine most people haven’t skied Parado because New Mexico is sort of like the forgotten ski land. Uh, but a lot of my listeners have skied the places that you’ve worked at. So I know you grew up at Hunter Hunter’s Madness. I love Hunter. There’s nothing else like it.
01:07:53.000 --> 01:08:08.000
Stuart Winchester: But it’s just, it’s just New York City sort of transposed onto the ski slope. Uh, Crotchet, more of a college scene, kind of like, you know, they have the high speed quads, a lot of night skiing, you know, a lot of like beer in a lap. Uh, Sugarbush.
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:25.000
Stuart Winchester: More of a resort, lots of natural snow, great skiing, you know, gets busy, but people get spread out around the base, and it has, obviously, the two mountains. And Saddleback is just, like, this glorious, you know, highest elevation in the east, up there. Uh, it doesn’t get too busy, because it’s far from everything.
01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Of those four.
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:33.000
Stuart Winchester: that my listeners are probably familiar with a couple. What is Powerito? Which one is Powerito most like, and why?
01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:45.000
Jasen: Interesting question. Uh, yeah, New Mexico, the land of enchantment. Um, when I moved out here from the East Coast, everyone asked me why I was leaving the ski industry.
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:54.000
Jasen: The lack of awareness… New Mexico’s the best-kept secret. You can fly into Albuquerque, grab a rental car, not hit any traffic, and be a skier in less than 2 hours. It’.
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:49.000
Stuart Winchester: There.
01:08:52.000 --> 01:08:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Love it.
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.000
Jasen: But Paul Rito, I would say…
01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:09.000
Jasen: I would say it’s very similar in feel to Saddleback. Saddleback is kind of a hidden, quiet gem. It’s just far enough you have to pass everything else.
01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:12.000
Jasen: On a busy day at Parrito.
01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:18.000
Jasen: Because we have 300 acres and we only have fixed scripts getting you up the hill.
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:31.000
Jasen: the downhill to uphill ratios are a lot different than what most skiers are today. Throughout my life, I’ve seen detaches go up where there used to be a double, especially at… Hunter’s a perfect example, right?
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:38.000
Jasen: When I started skiing there, there was a summit double chairlift, and now there’s, I think, 3 different detaches that put you at the top of that mountain.
01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:46.000
Jasen: Um, so we’ve increased the uphill capacity and not addressed the downhill capacity, and I think it’s watered down.
01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:57.000
Jasen: the experience a little bit. Powder Retail is the way it used to be. You get to the top of the mountain, and you ski down a trail, and even on a powder day, you have the trail to yourself. It’s amazing.
01:09:57.000 --> 01:10:01.000
Jasen: It’s it’s what I fell in love with as a kid.
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:04.000
Jasen: And Paul Rito still has that.
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:13.000
Stuart Winchester: That is an awesome vision. And I read here and there that the Glades are pretty good, and that’s something else Saddleback has. Talk to us about the Glades at Power Reno.
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:19.000
Jasen: Yeah, the… with some of the, um…
01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:26.000
Jasen: When we get sufficient snowpack, you can go into the trees, but with all the burn scars and stuff.
01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:30.000
Jasen: You really want to be cautious about the woods. Um…
01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:35.000
Jasen: I’m actually trying to get the tree message removed from our marketing campaign.
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:48.000
Jasen: So, uh, I would really define Palo Rito more as… there’s certainly trees to get into, I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s not a J Peak, if you will, um, but…
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:54.000
Jasen: It’s in-your-face fall line skiing, more so than I think most in New Mexico.
01:10:50.000 --> 01:10:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s true.
01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:56.000
Stuart Winchester: But you are allowed in the trees when there’s snow?
01:10:56.000 --> 01:10:58.000
Jasen: Oh, yeah.
01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, uh, just one last thing, just because I… this popped into my head. Saddleback was doing some really cool things with, like, portable rope tows in their terrain park, their lower level, uh, by, like, the Sandy Lift when they put in the new one. Were you involved with all that before you came out?
01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:16.000
Jasen: I, I was.
01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and so that’s kind of cool. I really like rope tows for terrain parks because they, you know, you can lap, lap, lap without having to ride a lift. Is that something you’ve thought about for Power Radio at all?
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:33.000
Jasen: Yeah, as a matter of fact, uh, if you want to pull up the trail map, I’ll show you kind of what I got thinking here.
01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:33.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, let’s do it.
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:35.000
Jasen: So…
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Here’s a trail map.
01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:41.000
Jasen: Yeah, so the bottom of Lone Spruce…
01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:48.000
Jasen: Right now, we’re having a hard time to really… the beginner lift…
01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:53.000
Jasen: On a busy day, we don’t want to add a lot of traffic on that lift.
01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:11:53.000 --> 01:12:04.000
Jasen: Down here below East Road on the bottom of Daisy May and the bottom of Lone Spruce, there’s a perfect little triangle in there when we’re not running spruce lift.
01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:16.000
Jasen: The thought process is potentially for next year. We’re on a surface lift up along the looker’s left side of the bottom of Daisy May.
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:24.000
Jasen: So that if that lift isn’t running, that parking lot is the easiest access to snow, so you could boot up in your car, ride up.
01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:30.000
Jasen: We’ve got snowmaking down in there, and that could be the beginning of our future, um…
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:35.000
Jasen: uh… beginner level terrain park, and that lift would…
01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:35.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s awesome.
01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:40.000
Jasen: would give you the bottom of Lowen Spruce, the bottom of Daisy May.
01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:43.000
Jasen: And also access from that parking lot back to the lodge.
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:53.000
Jasen: So, exactly, think of what, you know, the lodge is below the train park at Saddleback, but essentially kind of the same thing that we did at Saddleback.
01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so…
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Stuart Winchester: That’s really cool.
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Jasen: To access that lower section.
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Stuart Winchester: And with a portable rope tower, would you put something more permanent in?
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Jasen: Probably something a little more permanent.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Jasen: Um…
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Jasen: Because even when we do replace Sloan’s spruce lift.
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Jasen: You know, do you really want to ride… if you’re just looking to nail a couple features, do you really want to ride a 6 or 7 minute chair?
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
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Jasen: When you can just loop and cycle that lower area.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s awesome, Jason, and I imagine being right above a city, you have a good, you know, young skier demographic for that, so…
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Stuart Winchester: All right, Jason, listen, I really appreciate all this. This is, uh, it’s really exciting, and now I’ve skied a little in New Mexico, but I gotta get out there, and I’m always telling people these kind of…
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Stuart Winchester: fringe areas, if you’re coming from the East Coast, they see… they’re as big as an East Coast ski area, and there’s no one there. And they’re wonderful skiing, so this sounds, uh… this first time I focused on Power Reno, it sounds kind of like that if you were an East Coast skier coming out.
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Jasen: Yes, yes. Even on the busiest of days, it’s just… it still amazes me how awesome the terrain is. And you know.
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Jasen: all of the places I’ve worked, we’ve talked about some of the different skiers I’ve worked at, um, in the East. The other thing that I think is important to note.
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Jasen: Because of…
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Jasen: Just the quantity of people.
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Jasen: At 3 or 4 o’clock, the trails get stomped. I mean, you’re down to, like, boilerplate, everything’s scrapped off.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Jasen: And, uh, that was the other thing that blew my mind when I got out here. The quality of skiing from 8 AM to 4 PM is pretty consistent. Like, you just don’t get that, oh, you know, I’m going to the pub to have a beer because it’s already scraped off at 1 o’clock or 2 o’clock, you know. It’s just, it’s great skiing from first chair to last.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Awesome. Yeah.
01:14:41.000 --> 01:14:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
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Stuart Winchester: Incredible. All right, Jason. Well, I’m going to come test that theory hopefully this winter. If not, I’ll make it out at some point and hope to take a couple turns with you. So thanks so much for all your time, especially I know how busy you are. It’s a huge project. I really appreciate it.
01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:05.000
Jasen: Thanks a lot, Stuart. It was awesome talking to you.
Over the past 20 years, technology has challenged monopolies across American commerce. Sports and concert tickets and taxi rides offer two prime examples of power shifting from one central operator to many operators, with benefits and drawbacks for the consumer.
Perhaps we will get there with ski school. For now, I see a more practical path for an asset-light, app-based, independent ski school like Snow Schoolers - as the costs of labor, utilities, infrastructure, and insurance pile up, perhaps outsourcing the operation of a ski school is more practical for many smaller, independent ski areas than establishing and maintaining one of their own. That is what you get at Granlibakken and Frisco: Snow Schoolers pays the ski areas a share of each lesson, essentially as rent for the right to operate a ski school on their property. And Granlibakken and Friso don’t have to worry about hiring instructors and organizing lessons. There are probably 100 under-resourced ski areas in America where this model could work tomorrow. Brian and I discuss why Snow Schoolers works where it does, and why the model has been slow to spread.
Transcripts
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Zoom
Stuart Winchester: My guest today founded Snowschoolers in 2014 with the mission to make skiing and riding affordable and accessible for average Americans.
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Stuart Winchester: and to pay snow sports pros a sustainable living wage.
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Stuart Winchester: Today, Snowschoolers operates at Grand Lebakken in Lake Tahoe, and Frisco Adventure Park in Colorado, two small ski areas.
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Stuart Winchester: Last year, Snow Schoolers hosted approximately 6,000 students. He is a good friend of the Storm. He is Brian Bench. Brian, welcome to the Storm. You reached out to me very shortly after I launched in 2019 or 20, and we’ve been talking for years, and you’ve helped me out a lot.
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Stuart Winchester: With the…
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Stuart Winchester: digital side of things, which I’m not so good at, so it’s awesome to finally get you on and talk some snow schoolers. How you doing today?
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Brian Bensch: Doing lovely. Can’t complain. Always busy, never bored.
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Stuart Winchester: And that is… yeah, that is a picture out your window of Tahoe, right?
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Brian Bensch: Yes, that is a, it’s called Maggie’s Peak, but that’s looking at the little lake just next to Emerald Bay.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay, which would be sort of north side of the lake, so you’d be looking…
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Brian Bensch: Oh.
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Brian Bensch: South Tahoe, kind of on the other side of the corner, like, across from Heavenly.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, south, right? I was… I was backwards. So… so on the… up the left side, there would be Homewood, and then up the right side would be Heavenly and Diamond Peak, and at the top is, like.
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Brian Bensch: Yeah.
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Brian Bensch: Correct.
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Brian Bensch: Mostly correct.
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Stuart Winchester: Or North Star? North Star, Northwood. Okay, alright, uh, before I hurt myself, let’s just get into this. So, so Brian.
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Brian Bensch: Well, we’ll get you out to Tahoe soon enough, and then your Tahoe geography will get.
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Stuart Winchester: It’s been a minute. So…
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Stuart Winchester: What is broken about American ski schools, and how did you try to fix it with snow schoolers?
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Brian Bensch: Yeah. So I would say similar to, you know.
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Brian Bensch: The the general diatribe about, you know.
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Brian Bensch: The ski industry being kind of broken with lift tickets too expensive and climate change is gonna end the world.
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Brian Bensch: Not everything is broken, but particularly the most front and center in your face resorts that you know everyone hears about, and you know, makes the quote unquote mainstream news has been broken for a while.
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Brian Bensch: And, you know, the gist is, if you roll up to, you know, a Tier 1 destination resort.
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Brian Bensch: Brooke, uh…
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Brian Bensch: Not only is lift ticket price what it is, but if you are looking for a group lesson, you’re looking at a couple 100 bucks. And if you’re looking for a private lesson, you’re lucky if you can find anything that is under 1000 today. When we started Snow Schoolers, I remember telling people like, you know, a private lesson is $700 or $800.
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Brian Bensch: Well, now it’s roughly double that.
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Brian Bensch: And I started teaching skiing back in college at the Dartmouth Skiway shout out to Mark and the team there, and you know I thought it was the best job ever making 12 bucks an hour in college, but it is still a minimum wage hourly job.
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Brian Bensch: Despite the high margins that resorts take.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay, wait, wait, let’s, let’s pause right there. So over a thousand a day for a lesson.
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Stuart Winchester: patrollers are making… I think at the Tier 1 resorts, they’re probably making more than minimum wage. I think it’s probably more in… at least in the 20s.
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Brian Bensch: Yeah, the, the, go ahead.
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Stuart Winchester: Plus tips, but, but.
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Stuart Winchester: Still, right, so you figure it’s $1,200 a day for a lesson, and the instructor’s getting, you know, $150 of that, or something. What… why…
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Stuart Winchester: Why does that model even exist? Like, who would even do that?
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Brian Bensch: Out.
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Brian Bensch: Because…
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Stuart Winchester: Like, who would work for that? Like, when you, right? Like, why not just give your own lessons?
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Brian Bensch: Yeah.
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Brian Bensch: Yeah, well, and there’s two sides… two sides of the mark, and I, uh… outside of my passions for skiing, I consider myself sort of a marketplace, you know, guru of sorts. And, you know, on the supply side, or, like, the staffing side.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
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Brian Bensch: could ever imagine, and there’s a reason why people love to teach skiing.
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Brian Bensch: One of the, I would say.
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Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, I’m sorry, you froze there for probably about, like, 5 seconds. Um, I don’t know if you’re on a hard line, or you have good Wi-Fi, or…
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Brian Bensch: Okay.
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Brian Bensch: It’s Tahoe Wi-Fi. But it’s generally fine, unless it goes out and flickers, but…
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Stuart Winchester: Is it?
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Stuart Winchester: It’s Tahoe Wi-Fi.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: you…
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Brian Bensch: I can close a couple tabs, that might help. Or we can just… I don’t want you to… I know editing is tough.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.
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Stuart Winchester: No, no, no, you, you, uh, can you plug in, possibly?
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Brian Bensch: I don’t have an Ethernet.
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Stuart Winchester: You know, okay, alright. Um, yeah, let’s just, yeah, try to close some stuff, and we’ll keep going, and at worst case, you can, uh, go off screen.
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Brian Bensch: Yep.
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Brian Bensch: Sure.
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Brian Bensch: To pick back up the… the kind of…
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Brian Bensch: Why is it, you know, possible for a lesson to cost $1,200 and the instructor only keeps 20% of that? There’s two components to it. The first is that, you know, historically there was a glut of ski instructors going back into the 60s, 70s, 80s.
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Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, the, the quintessential ski bum, uh, is and was a great job, particularly for people that, you know, get the addiction that I know we both have. Um, and so, you know, lessons didn’t used to be this expensive, um, just like lift tickets didn’t used to be this expensive.
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Brian Bensch: Um, and so just like being a lifty, being a ski instructor was, you know, maybe a slight step above, you know, requires more training, but it has always been the sort of an entry-level hourly position. Um, and it’s certainly not the federal minimum wage at most resorts. Uh, when Vail came out, uh, post-COVID with the $20 an hour kind of cross-board raise.
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Brian Bensch: Uh, that was great for the industry, not just, you know, Vail Resorts staff. Um, and… but the prevailing wage for, you know, first-year ski instructor is certainly in that $20 an hour range today.
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Brian Bensch: And, you know, we try to do things differently.
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Stuart Winchester: Right, but okay, so, but fundamentally to get at the…
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Stuart Winchester: at this dynamic. I’m a ski instructor. Let’s say I’m a great ski instructor, right? And everybody loves me.
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Stuart Winchester: And I… I can see that…
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Stuart Winchester: you know, Northstar is charging $1,000 for a lesson, and they’re paying me $25 an hour. I don’t know what Northstar pays, so feel free to correct me, Northstar, but…
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Stuart Winchester: Why don’t I as an instructor?
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Stuart Winchester: just say, well, I’m just gonna go on Facebook and advertise my services, and say, meet me at the Lyft at Northstar, and I’ll give you a lesson for $200 for the day, because then I’m making more, and… and we’re just… and the consumer’s getting a better deal.
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Stuart Winchester: And then we established this one-on-one relationship. Why doesn’t that marketplace exist? Why do ski areas exist?
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Stuart Winchester: How are they able to do this weird market dynamic, which sounds fundamentally unfair to the instructor?
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Brian Bensch: Yeah. Well, that question is certainly more or less exactly what I pondered 10 years ago. And how I got into this fun little project called Snowschoolers.
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Brian Bensch: was the realization that, oh my god, like, why does this exist? Um, and, you know, and…
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Brian Bensch: 10 years ago, Uber and Airbnb had just become kind of a mainstream thing.
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Brian Bensch: Um, and so I was like, oh.
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Brian Bensch: I wonder if we could just connect instructors to students directly and have a little marketplace for ski school. At the time, I knew nothing about, you know, special use permits from the Forest Service and the ski industry broadly. You know, I’d grown up skiing, but I was just a lay consumer skier. The reality is, and very similar to.
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Brian Bensch: you know a lot of the work you’ve done this summer going into Forest Service kind of history. The special use permit system.
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Brian Bensch: effectively grants the resort, at least on Federal lands, where the special use permit exists, a micro monopoly over all business activity at their mountain. And it doesn’t have to be that way. If you do go over to Europe, it is a much more laissez-faire free market.
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Brian Bensch: Um, and most major resorts in Europe have at least four to six, you know, uh, ski schools that operate and compete, and, you know, the average lesson prices are roughly a third, and instructors keep, you know, 50 to 60% of lessons.
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Brian Bensch: And so it doesn’t have to be the way it is. But at at the core it is. It is because resorts have the legal right to be the only ski school of record. And.
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Stuart Winchester: Right, so just to get ahead of the people who like to point out details, so North Star was a weird example for me to use because it’s on private land, it’s not on Forest Service land. However, it’s owned by Vail Resorts, and I think what you’re saying is.
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Stuart Winchester: even though not every U.S. skier is on U.S. Forest Service land, 125 of them are, it… the fact that that encompasses the majority of our ski terrain has normalized the culture of one mountain, one ski school. Is that fair?
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Brian Bensch: Correct. And there is maybe a dirty little secret of capitalism that monopolies are great businesses. So Northstar does not want six other ski schools competing and driving the price down because ski school is very, very lucrative to the at least traditional big resort ski model.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: So, disruptor Brian comes out and says, alright guys, get out of the way, I am gonna change the world with.
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Stuart Winchester: snow schoolers and my Uber for skiing app, which I know you don’t want to call it anymore, but nonetheless, since you brought up the analogy, let’s go back to 2014.
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Stuart Winchester: Take us into it. What did you do and what happened?
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Brian Bensch: Yeah. In short, I would say, did a little bit of experimenting with that idea. And, you know, by the end of the first season.
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Brian Bensch: Learned pretty quickly that the ski resort management does not like the idea. And if you want to be able to ski at places that you love to ski.
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Brian Bensch: it’s probably a good idea to not, uh, not poke the bear too much, so to speak. Um, and so, uh, that first kind of pilot program very much led me into the, uh.
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Brian Bensch: and and this it was always a snooze. This has been a side project of mine for a while. It’s a I would call it a thriving small business. That 1st year I I pretended it was a startup, or I called it a startup, but never took funding and you know that 1st pilot program helped me realize that the only way, if I was going to turn this into real business.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Brian Bensch: was to find a way that was mutually beneficial for both resorts and instructors, uh, and obviously the students. Um, and that led me to, you know, how can I create a revenue share model.
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Brian Bensch: Uh, where by bringing more new skiers to the mountain, everyone benefits. Um, the resort gets to share the revenue, uh, the student gets a cheaper lesson, and the instructor gets higher pay. Um, and, uh…
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Brian Bensch: you know, by the time 2016 rolled around I was ready to quit my corporate job and give it a role, and so moved to Tahoe. And you know, without the.
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Brian Bensch: A gentleman named Brian Schilling out in Homewood. Without him taking sort of a chance on me, snow schoolers would not exist. But Homewood was coming off.
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Brian Bensch: we’ll say a typical bad snow year, and had to let go a lot of their ski school staff the year prior, because I think they were open for, like, 40 days that season, and hiring was a huge priority. Like, they were rebuilding a ski school from scratch, and the reality was the pitch that resonated with Homewood.
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Brian Bensch: was much less about, can we, like, you know, offer more affordable lessons and increase gear visits that way, but we need, like, we don’t know how to hire instructors, we need a bunch of instructors, and this Uber model of.
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Brian Bensch: uh, pseudo-freelance instructors was attractive to them. Um, and, you know, I told them that, like, I had put up a couple ads and had, you know, 20 people apply within a few weeks, and they’re like, ah, that’s interesting. Um, and so that led to our first season, uh, which I would say was.
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Brian Bensch: uh, not a hands-down success at Homewood, um, but I skied nearly 100 days, and it ended up being, uh, Tahoe’s second best winter of at least my young adulthood, um, and, you know, you know, no regrets at all.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, Homo’s a serious mountain. I mean, right on the lake, it’s dramatic, it has pretty nice chair lifts. But that didn’t end up being the future, right?
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Stuart Winchester: How did Homewood break down, and how did you…
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Stuart Winchester: reassemble…
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Stuart Winchester: like, sort of rethink the business, uh, on a different scale, and I mean both, like, going smaller to get bigger, if that makes sense.
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Brian Bensch: Yeah. So the core hypothesis of snow schoolers was always kind of twofold. If you make lessons.
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Brian Bensch: more interest or demand and potential customers when lessons are affordable.
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Brian Bensch: I think the same thing is true of lift tickets, and that’s why, you know, the places that are still offering $700 lift tickets are thriving. But affordable lessons drives an outsized increase in, you know, lesson visits. And if you pay instructors well, there’s no shortage of instructors you can find if you’re willing to pay them well.
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Brian Bensch: What we didn’t get right in that 1st year at Homewood was the affordable lesson side of things. We were able to teach lessons at Homewood, but we were offering the normal prices from the year before, which were more or less, I would say, 10% below what Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows up the road was charging.
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Brian Bensch: Um, and we were not… yeah, we taught a total of, I think, 50 lessons that season, um, which was, you know, better than zero, but certainly not enough to get me too, too excited. Um, and the kind of going smaller to get bigger.
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Brian Bensch: Uh, it was a function of, uh…
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Brian Bensch: my my tiny little hill in the woods called Grand Lebakken, that, as someone who’d grown up skiing Tahoe, I had literally never heard of. I think I’d probably skied in Tahoe 500 days at that point.
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Brian Bensch: Um, but, uh…
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Stuart Winchester: And it’s right by Palisades, right? It’s, like, right across the street, basically.
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Brian Bensch: Not quite across the street. It is two minutes from the lake, but you can’t see the lake from Grand Labaquin. So it’s literally like tucked in the way, tucked kind of behind a hill. It is between Alpine Meadows and Homewood, if you look at the map. And it’s roughly like 10 minutes from both of them.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Brian Bensch: Um, and as I was winding down that first season with Homewood, I challenged myself, um.
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:39.000
Brian Bensch: And, you know, tried to put it on social media, but no one really cared to do a March Madness Sweet 16 circuit, because there, at the time, were 16 unique mountains in Tahoe, and Grand Lebakken was one of the last stops on that circuit, and I forget who told me it existed.
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:44.000
Brian Bensch: Um, but, you know, Grand Lubakken is not a ski resort. Grand Lubakken is a ski.
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.000
Brian Bensch: Kind of known for its lodging and accommodations business.
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, you, uh, you just froze again, but you said Grand Lebakken is a ski…
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.000
Stuart Winchester: So just start over from Grand Lebakken is a ski.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Brian Bensch: Sure. Grand Labaca is not a ski resort. It is a ski hill or a ski area, as Stuart likes to say. It is two surface lifts. It is roughly 20 acres from the bottom of the hill of Grand Labaca. You can see the entire hill, the entire mountain. What you see is what you get.
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:30.000
Brian Bensch: It is not, I would say, exclusively for beginners. The Poma that goes to the top, and it’s, I think, roughly 225 feet. I would put it at a solid, you know, a Jackson Hole blue. It is at least a 25 to 30 degree slope.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:46.000
Brian Bensch: and I have seen 12 year olds straight line it and almost die. So it is. It is certainly like there’s enough terrain that you could do ski race like training on it, and we do a little bit of that in the winter on weekdays. But it is a ski hill.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:57.000
Brian Bensch: Um, not at all, sort of, no bells and whistles, no high-speed quads, um, just a bunny lift, uh, rope toe, and a, you know, slightly more advanced poma that goes to the top.
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:09.000
Brian Bensch: And, uh, spent a good afternoon with, uh, the Parson family back in spring 2017, and I was like, this price is pretty cool, this is cute, and told them about my ideas for ski school.
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000
Stuart Winchester: And who are they?
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:25.000
Brian Bensch: Chris Parson and Ron Parson. Ron is Chris’s father, and has owned the mountain for quite a while, and what Grand Lombachman is known for is, it is more of an accommodations center. It’s a lodge and conference center.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:42.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, with roughly, I think, 150-ish units. Um, and the ski hill is an amenity, uh, along with their pool, along with their spa, along with, like, you know, their, you know, uh, dining areas and so forth. Um, and they’ve operated the ski area and sled hill, um, for…
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:55.000
Brian Bensch: I think Ron is — the Parson family is going on maybe 30 years. I hope to convince him that he should come on the pod at some point. But he is —.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:12.000
Brian Bensch: Their family, you know, is the quintessential mom and pop ski hill ski area sort of operators. When I met them, ski school was run mostly with Chris, who had sort of two group lesson slots a day and a piece of paper for people to sign up in the morning.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Brian Bensch: And they were like, you know, we could probably be more organized with this. And I was like, yeah, I think I can help you a little bit. And then the season ended and I went home, had made no money. So, you know, my day job has been in marketing.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Brian Bensch: for big and small tech companies for a while. Um, and so I went and had to get a big boy tech job again to, you know, pay for rent. Um, and my Tahoe ski lease was up for the season. So, I went back home.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:47.000
Brian Bensch: you know, wasn’t sure if Snow Solutions was going to continue, kind of just assumed it was a one-year thing, and, you know.
00:33:47.000 --> 00:34:03.000
Brian Bensch: you know, hadn’t talked a ton with Homewood, but I knew, like we weren’t gonna you know the business wasn’t great. But fast forward October 1st roughly, this time of year the Gm. Gives me a call out of the blue, and I pick up. I’m now at my new day job, and I just play it cool. And I’m like, Oh, yeah.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:19.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, no, we’ll run your ski school this winter. Grant Lebakken did, yeah. So the GM of Grant Lebakken picked up and said, hey, you know, we love meeting you in the spring, and you know, winter’s around the corner. Let’s talk about, you know, what needs to be done for you guys to run ski school for us this year.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Grand Labaquin?
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Right.
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and I remember going home that night being like, huh.
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:33.000
Brian Bensch: This is not going to be easy because I’m working 40 to 50 hours a week now at my new job. But skiing in this space is what I love to do.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:51.000
Brian Bensch: You know, at one point, a quote on the website was the Confucius quote, “If you find a job you love, you’ll never work another day.” And, you know, I said, yes, you know, porque no las dos, let’s do both. Didn’t tell my employer at the time.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:06.000
Brian Bensch: Because, you know, don’t want to give them reason to question how much time you’re putting in. But basically worked, you know, spent many nights, and I was a bad developer at the time. So everything snow schoolers is kind of built in-house from a code perspective.
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Been there?
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:23.000
Brian Bensch: And, you know, I just, every evening from 6 p.m. to midnight, I’d be plugging away to build the Grand Le Bacon kind of new system that we built that first year. And it worked. You know, year two, we taught.
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Brian Bensch: I think 300 plus lessons, and we did five times more revenue than year one at Homewood. And again, I was, you know, I only taught probably 2% of lessons because I had my full-time job. Christmas was a fun disaster where.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:47.000
Brian Bensch: all of a sudden, we were sold out every single day, and I was like, uh, I guess I need to figure out how to stop selling lessons, uh, because I hadn’t really built that into the model the first year, because we were never sold out.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Ah, okay, okay.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:56.000
Brian Bensch: But, you know, we made it work and lots of families had amazing, you know, first experiences learning to slide on snow.
00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:06.000
Stuart Winchester: So let me zoom out and just tell you why I think this makes sense from my point of view, and then you can color that in with with how Graham Lebakken actually achieved it. I look at…
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.000
Stuart Winchester: something like the Icon Pass, and they have a partnership with Jackson Hole.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:22.000
Stuart Winchester: but Altera doesn’t have to own or operate Jackson Hole, and if a lift breaks, it’s not Altera’s problem, but they get the benefit of Jackson Hole.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.000
Stuart Winchester: on their IconPass. Uh…
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Stuart Winchester: this model that Grand Lebakken has, there used to be hundreds of ski areas like this, just attached to resorts all across. In this part of the country, there were a ton of them, in the Catskills and the Poconos, and…
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.000
Brian Bensch: Okay.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000
Stuart Winchester: most of them, I mean, they frankly weren’t super interesting hills, but they…
00:36:42.000 --> 00:37:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Those resorts found that as God running a ski hill became more complex, it wasn’t worth keeping all those pieces and parts as an amenity. So in the case of, of Grand Le Bacon, I, I imagine, you know, you have a couple Pomas, so your market is probably like people who wanted to come to Tahoe in the winter, but aren’t necessarily skiers, but maybe want to try it.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Right? Because no one’s like, hmm, should I go to Palisades or Grand Lebakken today, right? Like it’s, it’s a very unique place. So, but Grand Lebakken, I mean, if they’re going to have a hill, that means they also have to have, you know, a rental shop and they have to have a ski school and instructors. This basically.
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Takes the whole ski school, all that labor.
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000
Stuart Winchester: all the infrastructure.
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000
Stuart Winchester: out of it, and I’d imagine you just…
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Pay, you know, you just write them a check like a lease, basically like a forest service lease where a skier operates and they, they pay based on what they make to the government. So it, it seems to me like ski areas would love that. And I, and I could think of 100 small ski areas in the country where that would work. That’s how I’m understanding this is that.
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Is that fair? And…
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, I I would say you more or less hit the nail on the head.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:03.000
Brian Bensch: The and and the models the operating model that we’ve sort of developed, that we are sort of most in favor of is, we do ski school. We take full responsibility for ski school and nothing else.
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Brian Bensch: we’ve we’ve we’re not obligated, or we don’t have to stick with that model entirely. And at our Frisco location, Colorado. We also do all of rentals.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000
Brian Bensch: And but ski school is what sort of what we love, what we care about.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:34.000
Brian Bensch: And you know, in in other past smaller partnerships we’ve done. We were responsible for even more of operations, grooming and parking and snow removal is.
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Brian Bensch: like very underappreciated. How time consuming, expensive those can be.
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:50.000
Brian Bensch: And so I I am very thankful that Gran Lebakken and our partners at Frisco take responsibility for for grooming, and particularly grooming snowmaking.
00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:00.000
Brian Bensch: um, and sort of the general operations, uh, lift operations and so forth, are… are never gonna be our sweet spot. Um, and we would happily run the, like.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Brian Bensch: like ski school is often the biggest human part of the organization, because you have a bunch of instructors.
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, and you have to, like, you know, herding cats doesn’t happen without effort. Um, and scheduling does not happen, uh, without good software, and a human to supervise the software. Um, and so, yeah, that’s been our sweet spot. Um, I likewise, uh, think that there are at least.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Brian Bensch: a few dozen, if not hundreds, of other small ski areas, whether they’re surface lift only, or just small with, like, a single fixed grip lift, that, um, that want to do a better ski school program, and we would love to talk to them.
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so Grand Labakin you’ve been with ever since, so I’m assuming they’ve been pretty happy with it. Let’s jump across the country to another really weird ski area that probably people don’t know exists, that we’ve been talking about, which is Frisco, which is… you pass by it on the way to Breckenridge, but you won’t even see it. It’s so small, like.
00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:09.000
Stuart Winchester: You have to drive around this weird road and it’s, you know, underneath a hill. And I’ve not skied there, but I stopped by after they were closed, uh, a couple years ago. So, so that is not attached to a resort. That’s, I think, a city park. So you have a completely different demo there.
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Stuart Winchester: So who is Frisco trying to serve, and how did you meet that need? And it seems like you’ve had a long-term relationship with them as well.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:29.000
Brian Bensch: Yes. So we’re now going to our fifth season with the town of Frisco. And so, yes, it is a municipally managed ski area and tubing park.
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:42.000
Brian Bensch: You can’t miss the tubing element when you’re driving from getting off I-70 and heading to Breckenridge, but very few people will know that there’s beginner ski and snowboarding there as well. I’ve been to Colorado a good handful of times.
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:48.000
Brian Bensch: definitely drove by it once and didn’t know they were skiing there. And you know a mutual acquaintance.
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:01.000
Brian Bensch: post-COVID, when I was talking about, you know what, you know, the world’s going remote, maybe I can just, you know, expand snow schoolers without me physically being there all the time. Um, and I was like, huh, have you heard of Frisco? I was like, no, what.
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:07.000
Brian Bensch: And, you know, that was probably two months before our first successful season with Frisco.
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:22.000
Brian Bensch: Um, the audience they’re serving, to your question, is not nearly as local as you might expect for being, like, a town-run hill. Uh, we certainly have some local programs, but their audience is Summit County visitors.
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Hmm.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:35.000
Brian Bensch: Who primarily are either not skiers yet, not skiers and swimmers yet, or are brand new and want to get their sort of their ski legs on because someone invited them on a trip to Breck or trip to Copper.
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:52.000
Brian Bensch: and they’re like, well, I’ve never skied before. You know a lifting. It’s expensive, less expensive. B like, can I get my legs like, you know, get my footing somewhere, and we are smack dab in the middle of, you know, 4 major resorts. In addition to Copper Breck, you’ve got a base and and.
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000
Brian Bensch: and Keystone around the corner, and we are the affordable alternative for Summit County visitors.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:03.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s expensive for a rope tail, by the way, it’s like $40 for a lift ticket.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and the town…
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.000
Brian Bensch: Sure. Expenses is very relative. That is fair.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, okay, so, so…
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:21.000
Stuart Winchester: you established… that’s funny, that’s not at all what I expected. I thought it would be, like, bust loads of kids, but I guess they probably have deals with Breckenridge or something. So you’ve had success.
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:35.000
Stuart Winchester: at Frisco and at Grand Labaca, and you’ve had a couple others that you’ve been in and out of other than Homewood. Tell us about those, and what did work, and ultimately what didn’t work about them.
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah. Let’s go with — let’s stick with the Colorado trend first, and then we’ll come back to Tahoe. There’s an awesome little mountain.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:01.000
Brian Bensch: that, I think you know, and and didn’t. As you think about your the last ski resorts to open or ski areas to open. I actually think Hoedown Hill is the most recently opened new ski area in the country. It’s about an hour north of Denver.
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:06.000
Brian Bensch: in Windsor, Colorado, and we worked with them for their 1st 2 seasons.
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:15.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and we did not work with them last year. Um, still in touch with them, um, but they are a brand new ski area that is, I would say, a…
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Brian Bensch: a privately…
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:26.000
Brian Bensch: run like you. You could say there’s similarities to the Grand Lebakken business model, but on a whole other level of, I would say.
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:40.000
Brian Bensch: affluence and like target demo. The Hoedown Hill facility is attached to the Raindance National Golf Course, which I’m not a golfer, but I hear it’s a tier one destination golf course.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:49.000
Brian Bensch: They want to build, you know, 4 seasons esque hotel there, and it is a we’ll say a bourgeois experience that they’re going for with some, you know.
00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:06.000
Brian Bensch: you know, a good culture vibe there. And I think so long as the management team remains committed, it will continue to grow. They are at the IndyPass, so shout out there, like, it’s worth a quick visit if you’re flying into Denver with your IndyPass.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and in our first two seasons there, um.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.000
Brian Bensch: We did, we did.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:19.000
Brian Bensch: we did okay. But we weren’t able to draw the numbers that we saw in Summit County, or anywhere close to them.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.000
Brian Bensch: And my conclusion.
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:26.000
Brian Bensch: or one of my conclusions is that.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:39.000
Brian Bensch: It is much, much harder to influence the macro kind of tide of skier movements than it is to siphon off.
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:55.000
Brian Bensch: not to capture demand in an underserved market in Northern Colorado. You know, it’s great that they have Hodown Hill, but there weren’t a thousand people looking for affordable lessons in Northern Colorado before Hodown Hill existed.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.
00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:11.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, whereas there’s, you know, thousands of Summit County visitors who want more affordable lessons and just don’t take lessons today. Um, and so, like, it was… and same thing in Tahoe. Uh, it was much easier, like, we open up for business and, like, we don’t have to do much marketing for.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.000
Stuart Winchester: You know.
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:25.000
Brian Bensch: for the wave of customers to come in, whereas every customer we earned in, uh, in Windsor and Fort Collins area, sort of, we had to hustle to get. There weren’t people, like, already looking for affordable skiing there, because it’s… it’s a suburb of Denver.
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s true.
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:28.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s so interesting because I.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:39.000
Stuart Winchester: wrote up, and I talked to the folks at Hood on Hill, and they were opening it. And the way I thought… the way they pitched it to me was more of making skiing accessible for locals at an entry level.
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, they didn’t… I mean, I understood that it was attached to this other resort, but my understanding is it was kind of a low-cost thing for the community. I think one mistake they made, and…
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Maybe you don’t want to criticize them, but I think having four carpets.
00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:02.000
Stuart Winchester: I think they should have had at least one rope tower or T-bar, like, something to serve the terrain park that wasn’t so slow. I think that would have gotten them more…
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Energy on site.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:18.000
Stuart Winchester: And… and had a multiplier effect. I just didn’t… I didn’t like the four carpets model. I liked the model of putting a ski area there, because otherwise the closest place is, what, like Eldora, and a lift ticket’s 180 bucks?
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, so… so there wasn’t… or you go up to Echo, I guess, but that’s a pain to get to. So… so I… I don’t know, that… that was my… that’s my impression of Hoedown so far, is it was, like, a good idea with bad execution.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:35.000
Brian Bensch: I I think that there’s some fairness to that.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:48.000
Brian Bensch: They did a great job with the terrain park, given the resources available. And yes, like, a rope tower right next to the park is always, like, I think, a good idea. And it’s something that the town of Frisco invested in, I think.
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:05.000
Brian Bensch: 3 years ago, maybe 2 years ago, and it has been wildly popular. And you know, rope toes, you know you don’t need to convince me. But I’m I’m with you on the rope toes are the most affordable, accessible way for a ski area to like increase uphill uphill capacity.
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:17.000
Brian Bensch: Um, I think the biggest challenge for Hoedown was… and you’d call this bad luck, um, I would say bad luck more than bad execution, but it is at, you know, 6,000 feet, and uh…
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:24.000
Brian Bensch: Natural snowfall in an hour north of Denver is not the most plentiful.
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.000
Brian Bensch: And they invested heavily in snowmaking, but you can’t fight temps.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:40.000
Brian Bensch: And so, in both of our first two seasons at Hoedown, we opened between January 2nd and January 7th, but we missed Christmas both of those years, and it’s really hard to, sort of.
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:57.000
Brian Bensch: generate momentum for a ski area when you miss Christmas. Um, and, you know, Mother Nature is the biggest determiner of that. Uh, I’m not positive, but I don’t think they got open for Christmas last year, and last year was obviously the worst of the three past seasons. So, um, hoping Mother Nature cooperates better for them this year.
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, Brian, so you can keep hunting rope toes.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:16.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, I was having this debate with someone yesterday. A lot of the stats you hear when you point back in time, oh, there was 1,200 ski areas and now there’s only 500. It’s like, well, a lot of them were little rope toes. Like, most of the lost ski areas in Colorado were just little rope toes that existed. The reason they went away…
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, is, is not because there, there was some catastrophe in, uh.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:34.000
Stuart Winchester: anywhere other than the fact that there just was better ski areas built, and they’re kind of boring. Like, when you just… you get over that pretty quick. Like, 100 vertical foot, wide open run, with a rope tow, unless it has some park features.
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:47.000
Stuart Winchester: you’re gonna get over it. And almost all of them, they still exist. And I’ve been to a lot of them across America, and they’re mostly in New England and Midwest, and kind of sprinkled throughout the West, especially in the Pacific Northwest. They’re almost all…
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:56.000
Stuart Winchester: None of them are actual businesses, almost. Like, they’re almost all subsidized, they’re a city park, they’re owned by a school, they’re attached to a resort.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:01.000
Stuart Winchester: My point is, this is not a growth area long term.
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.000
Stuart Winchester: And…
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:17.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, the big ski areas mostly do have really good beginner centers, and they’re getting better all the time, right? You see places like Jackson and Big Sky building mid-mountain beginner centers to put people more up in the alpine experience and away from.
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000
Stuart Winchester: the chaos of the base. So what I’m getting at here is.
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Eventually…
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.000
Stuart Winchester: It seems like you have to get…
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:41.000
Stuart Winchester: into a ski area where there’s somewhere else to go after the beginner hill’s done, right? Or else you’re just gonna be teaching pizza French fry forever, and… and I don’t think that even the most passionate ski instructor wants to do that, so…
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.000
Stuart Winchester: And it’s funny, because you started at Homewood, and it’s like, how do you get back to Homewood is almost the question I’m asking.
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.000
Stuart Winchester: But I…
00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:02.000
Stuart Winchester: How do you… First of all, do you agree with that or am I totally missing the point? And second, if you do want to eventually get into bigger operations, what…
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.000
Stuart Winchester: What are the obstacles to doing so other than the obvious permitting issue we just talked about?
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:20.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, so I would say I 80% agree with you. The 20% carve out would be that Grand Lavaca is still a business and Ron runs it like a business.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:27.000
Brian Bensch: And the town of Frisco, even if it’s town-operated, is a business that, like, reports its P&L, and they’re both, like, pretty thriving.
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:33.000
Brian Bensch: medium sized businesses. Snow schoolers is a small business. They’re they’re certainly, you know, 5 to 10 x bigger.
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Brian Bensch: And and I think that just like, you know, grade school education is a business.
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:46.000
Brian Bensch: There is a steady stream of families.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:51:01.000
Brian Bensch: You know, kids that, you know, will hopefully have the opportunity to learn to ski. And, you know, I think there’s a world for, you know, bump hills, so to speak, to remain thriving in existence without having, you know.
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:13.000
Brian Bensch: the Jackson Hole Palisades terrain to keep people forever. As far as you know, snow schoolers and kind of the the lesson ecosystem.
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:22.000
Brian Bensch: I would say vehemently believe there is an underserved market for intermediate and advanced lessons.
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:37.000
Brian Bensch: at, you know, quote-unquote, real resorts. Um, I’d somewhat be lying if I said I had the answer, uh, to how to break into that, because I probably would have done so already, uh, even if this is my part-time endeavor. Um, but the… in a similar manner to.
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:44.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, how to… you know, we’ve… we struggled to create demand at Hoedown Hill. Hoedown Hill? Um…
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:59.000
Brian Bensch: It is a completely new endeavor to create demand for that, you know, lifelong skier who skis, you know, 5 to 15 days a year, or maybe even like 10 to 50 days a year, and doesn’t think that they need a lesson.
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.000
Brian Bensch: Um, that is a much sort of.
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:14.000
Brian Bensch: harder marketing challenge. But I can guarantee you, unless they are in the top 1% of like wealth. They’re not going to pay $1,000. And so that’s the like. How do you? How do you like? Come up with the right product?
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:26.000
Brian Bensch: And, you know, when I talk to people on chairlifts, you know, fun skiing, I’ll often ask, like, you know, hey, when’s the last time you took a lesson now? Yeah, when I was a kid. What would you be willing to pay?
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:42.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, to get 20% better at your skiing riding today. It’s like, yeah, maybe 50 bucks, maybe 40 bucks, 60 bucks, like, you know. Uh, and there’s no mountain that offers that, particularly for, like, the one or two hour segment. Um, and, you know.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:49.000
Brian Bensch: I think there’s a lot of experimentation that the bigger mountains could do with ski school to serve that sort of.
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.000
Brian Bensch: Latent market, or latent demand, uh…
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.000
Brian Bensch: I’d love to help, but I’d be lying if I think that.
00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.000
Brian Bensch: Ask a 3rd party to do it for them.
00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:13.000
Brian Bensch: And but you know, in the the only thing I think that I am a believer of Einstein’s definition of insanity, and and if you do the same thing over over and over again, and expect different results like that’s insane.
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and I’d love to see more experimentation with, like, you know, better serving sort of lessons for people that already know how to ski. Um, because that’s what… that’s what got me addicted. Uh, becoming an instructor made me realize how much more.
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:37.000
Brian Bensch: fun I could have and how much more like I still I want to learn to be a better skier this year uh and like everyone that sort of.
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:47.000
Brian Bensch: really gets sort of addicted to ski instruction. They do it because, like there, it’s a lifelong pursuit of learning to like, get better. And most.
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:50.000
Brian Bensch: lace gears like don’t have that sort of.
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.000
Brian Bensch: have that spark that I’d love to spread.
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess the cynic in me thinks you’re never gonna get the robots to ski. Like, there’s too much ego in American skiing, especially among the sort of core demographic of males. But what I… I think what I meant more was, like, okay.
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, Grand Le Bacon’s kind of a novelty, and I get that it’s a business, uh, that’s attached to it. I, how about like Tahoe Donner, right? So it’s, it’s, it’s not a big resort. It’s, you know, right next to Sugar Bowl. It’s got 500 vertical feet, like five double.
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Maybe they don’t need the hassle of running a ski school, and the…
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:41.000
Stuart Winchester: they have locals, right? Because that’s a mountain with interesting terrain, even though it’s short vert, where parents would want to go and, like, put their kids in ski school while they go off and ski, even if you don’t.
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:57.000
Stuart Winchester: get the parents. Is there… do you see opportunity in that? Because there’s… there’s lots of hills like that, which are not, you know, down the Frisco level, but, you know, if you want to go Summit County, so you have Frisco, and you have, like, Keystone Basin.
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:07.000
Stuart Winchester: uh, Breck, but then you also have Granby Ranch, and you have Ski Cooper, and it’s like, okay, may… or you have Echo Mountain, maybe those places are sort of the logical next.
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:18.000
Stuart Winchester: I don’t even know if it’s possible to get the really big ones, but, you know, do you see any growth in that? Just tiering up, not to destinations necessarily, but sort of like.
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.000
Stuart Winchester: ski areas that families actually want to ski a whole season at.
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, um…
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:28.000
Brian Bensch: A few things to come back to your earlier question. Not all of ski school is broken.
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.000
Brian Bensch: I visited Granby Ranch.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:37.000
Brian Bensch: last spring, I believe? Maybe it was 2 springs ago. Um, and I’ve been to Tahoe Donner many a times. Both of those, uh…
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:42.000
Brian Bensch: mountains have pretty phenomenal ski schools. Like, they don’t need our help.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:50.000
Brian Bensch: You know, maybe, you know, maybe there’s some cool software things that we’re doing that they could, you know, borrow and replicate, but they are thriving.
00:55:50.000 --> 00:56:00.000
Brian Bensch: learning area programs. And I think there’s a like for for the listeners that have, you know, you know.
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.000
Brian Bensch: young kids that are thinking about when to start in ski school.
00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:22.000
Brian Bensch: That, I would say, tier of mountain is today, like, if it’s not on your radar, it should be, because the affordability, like, they’re not gouging people nearly as much as the Tier 1 Icon Epic Resorts are, and every time I’ve visited them, on a weekend at least.
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:30.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, their fault. They’re thriving. And so I don’t think that at least the class of the Tahoe Donners and Granbys of the world. I don’t think they’re broken.
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:38.000
Brian Bensch: Other than, you know, yeah, more staff, like, how do you keep scaling? But they are thriving pretty well from what I’ve seen.
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m.
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:50.000
Stuart Winchester: I could still see some operator… you know, I was talking to the guy who revitalized Steeplechase, and he was saying, you know, we don’t have a ski school, and I think I may have even connected you guys, but it’s like, you sort of have a ski school in a box you could offer them.
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, one more ski school question, and then you can make fun of my charts. Um, so… so, Summit at Snoqualmie.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:11.000
Stuart Winchester: and I’m sure you know this, for some reason, because of, like, it’s grandfathered in, because it used to be, like, 92 different ski areas, and now it’s… it’s one. They have competing ski schools there. It’s one of the few… might be the only place in America.
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, that I’m aware of, at least the only major, you know, it’s owned by Boeing. And I’ve asked Boe.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:25.000
Stuart Winchester: I don’t know, we don’t really want to have that war. You know, it works. But but what do you think of Summit at Snoqualmie?
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.000
Stuart Winchester: And is it just?
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:40.000
Stuart Winchester: a fringe case, and it doesn’t tell us anything useful about how we could maybe change American ski school structure. Any thoughts on that? That’s right outside of Seattle, by the way, for folks who don’t know.
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, yeah, uh…
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Brian Bensch: Now, fun, fun fact.
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.000
Brian Bensch: You know, in my 1st year of.
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:52.000
Brian Bensch: researching this space and figuring out what I was gonna do. Uh, the Pacific Northwest, and Snoqualmie in particular, was sort of.
00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:08.000
Brian Bensch: Number one, I’m like, I need to get up there and figure out, like, what they’re doing, why, how they made it work, and how do we do that in Tahoe? That was my, like, year one thesis. I finally got up there just before the world shut down with COVID.
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Brian Bensch: Knocked on doors, had some good conversations.
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:23.000
Brian Bensch: And and you’re correct like there are at least 6 or 7, maybe even more independent ski schools. They all have their own little lodge building. They’re all primarily seasonal programs.
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:33.000
Brian Bensch: And they do. They still do a good deal of the sort of transportation coordination. You know that whole market is, you know, Seattle and Seattle suburbs, you know, coming up.
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Right off the interstate. Yeah.
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:45.000
Brian Bensch: to the mountains right off the interstate. It’s it’s as sort of like convenient as you could imagine. And more or less the answer I got was, we’ve done it this way.
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:48.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, but we’re not looking to make it more this way.
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.000
Brian Bensch: And you know they.
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000
Stuart Winchester: That was the answer from Boyne or from the ski schools?
00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:08.000
Brian Bensch: Uh, it was… I would say both. There was a, uh, like, the first party unoperated, like, Snoqualmie Ski School manager, like, told me that. And there was a person who coordinated, basically, was the Boyne representative for the seven other independents.
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:11.000
Brian Bensch: And it was like, yeah, we’re not, you know, we’re not inviting new people.
00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and in case anyone from the ski schools at Summit is listening to this, don’t run to Guy Lawrence or Steven Kirchner and be like.
00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:13.000
Brian Bensch: Um, okay.
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Stu Winchester said that you said this. I’m paraphrasing, and that’s my take, is that they don’t want that war. What they said was probably something like, our ski schools do a great job, and we’re so happy to work with them. So don’t run that back to them. This is just my take on it.
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:23.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:31.000
Brian Bensch: Yep.
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, that they don’t want to fight you, and I think they’re smart not to.
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:43.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah. The thing I would probably acknowledge is when a…
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:47.000
Brian Bensch: Sierra is running a…
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:54.000
Brian Bensch: a well executed, operationally efficient ski school.
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:00.000
Brian Bensch: They don’t necessarily need third parties to come in and, like, try to do it better.
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.000
Brian Bensch: Okay.
01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:06.000
Brian Bensch: However, there is a short term sort of.
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.000
Brian Bensch: financially motivated incentive.
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.000
Brian Bensch: to run a, I would say, less at scale, more profitable ski area over time.
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.000
Brian Bensch: And you know that is sort of.
01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:22.000
Brian Bensch: what I would attribute to, like, you know, the…
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:37.000
Brian Bensch: the non-snow summit at Snoqualmie Mountains that have one ski school and their list prices are $279 for group lesson or $1,299 for private lesson.
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:50.000
Brian Bensch: they’ve decided that it’s better for their business to, you know, maximize, like, short-term financials over long-term bringing skiers in the market. Um, and the history of Snoqualmie was, you know.
01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:05.000
Brian Bensch: Because it was like this, and because the ski schools were busing kids, you know, from school to the mountain afternoon, and, like, handling the very messy logistics and operations, that, like, they saw that as valuable and let them keep doing that.
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:12.000
Brian Bensch: But from a business perspective, it’s just more profitable, at least in the short term, to teach fewer lessons at higher margin.
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:17.000
Stuart Winchester: So to end on this thought on ski lessons.
01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:27.000
Stuart Winchester: I think they’re… it’s like… it’s a little bit like Lyft tickets, where the retail price is scary, but there’s a lot of hacks. And I’m not saying there’s hacks at, like.
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Big Sky, but, but what I always tell folks with kids is find a seasonal program. And my seasonal program at Mount Peter, you know, 250 vertical foot ski area, an hour and 15 minutes away from New York City.
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, 3 little chairlifts, family-run, great little place. It’s $650 for my son. It… that includes 7 weekends, uh, you know, 3… so, it’s 7 different weekends, and you choose a time, and it’s…
01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Stuart Winchester: 3 hours on Sunday. Okay, so it’s, it’s a total of 21 hours of instruction, if we go to all 7, which we never seem to make it to. But they’re with the same group every, every week, they’re with the same instructor every week, they get a lot of peer pressure from the other kids, positive peer pressure because they’re having fun.
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:26.000
Stuart Winchester: So that’s the hack I always tell people about, is like, don’t wait until you go on vacation to Banff and get your kids a lesson. Like, get them a seasonal rental of gear, right? It’s like 150 bucks around here, and they don’t really do it in some parts of the country, but in the Northwest they do.
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then you… you get them in a seasonal program with a… a season pass place at Mt. Peter’s $400, and then the CC program’s $650. Still… still, like, not… not nothing.
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, but if you’re a middle-class person with a middle-class income, and you want skiing to be part of your life.
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:58.000
Stuart Winchester: I think that, you know, $1,200 is a fair investment in your child per winter to make that happen. And that’s, again, like, one day of one lesson at a major resort. So that’s sort of my hack, and it’s not even really a hack, it’s just…
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:09.000
Stuart Winchester: kind of things that I found. So, so do you have any tips for people looking to get more affordable lessons, uh, either, you know, at any, at any.
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Age or stage?
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:13.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah, uh…
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:15.000
Brian Bensch: A love that.
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:23.000
Brian Bensch: Love the hacker. Seasonal programs are great. The downside of seasonal programs is, you know.
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:33.000
Brian Bensch: Similar to the downside of, uh, season passes in general, and it… a season pass is never going to be that attractive to your first-time skier.
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:48.000
Brian Bensch: Like, you know, being asked to, like, spend any, you know, approaching $500 to $1,000 amount for a thing that you want to try for the first time is just, like, a big ask. And so, even, you know, seasonal programs are great. Once you’ve.
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:03:48.000 --> 01:04:01.000
Brian Bensch: had your successful first day or so, day or two. Um, and uh… and we gotta get people over the hump. So, you know, the ski industry, I do believe, has a top-of-funnel problem.
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:17.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and I, I, I hope that the Vail Resorts and Alteras of the world are, are sort of slowly but surely waking up to that. Um, but as far as, like, you know, if you’re thinking about, you know, how to introduce your, your son or daughter to skiing for the first time.
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:20.000
Brian Bensch: Um, my… I would say…
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:28.000
Brian Bensch: I don’t know, biggest unknown hack, so to speak, would be to take the lesson with them.
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:43.000
Brian Bensch: Like sign up for a group lesson where they’ll, where they’ll let adults and kids together. And your job is to learn as much from the instructor about how to teach your son or daughter as as your son or daughter learns so that you can continue with them.
01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:55.000
Brian Bensch: Um, and, and most people, like, think you’re doing this, like, you hopefully already know how to ski yourself, but, like, learning to, to be your own instructor for, for your son or daughter is.
01:04:55.000 --> 01:05:11.000
Brian Bensch: the most affordable hack out there. And we’ve done an occasional mommy and me program with snow schoolers that very much serves that market or that intent.
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:15.000
Brian Bensch: And maybe you might learn that you want to take lessons yourself for real later.
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. You know, another thing that I just thought of, and my brother-in-law does this a lot, he has three kids, and uh, you know, he’ll often have other friends with kids skiing with him.
01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:32.000
Stuart Winchester: in a… a private lesson for a day is super expensive, right, at a big place like Steamboat, but it starts to make sense.
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:38.000
Stuart Winchester: when you realize it doesn’t have to be one-to-one. Like, if you get an instructor, it can be…
01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:45.000
Stuart Winchester: for your whole group of 5 people, or whatever. I’m not saying that’s cheap for a day, but you do cut the line, and you go around, and you…
01:05:45.000 --> 01:06:01.000
Stuart Winchester: And, you know, they give you tips, and they know the mountain, and they know where to go, and uh, you know, I skied with them one day, and they’re like, oh, Stewie, you go down this mogul run and meet us on this cat track, we’re gonna go, like, go all around. And I thought that was kind of neat, too, if…
01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:57.000
Brian Bensch: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: you know…
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Stuart Winchester: So it’s not like if you have 5 people, it’s $5,000 for a day. Like, if it’s $1,000 for 5 people, you know, as a splurge, it starts to make a little more sense when I realize that.
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Brian Bensch: Totally.
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Brian Bensch: Yeah, and and that is that is true almost anywhere. And you know, when.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Brian Bensch: When we talk about our ratio of private lessons to group lessons, and we are well over 90% private lessons, we call this, like, private.
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Brian Bensch: including, like, the brothers, the mom, dad, etc. And, you know, a family lesson makes the economics work much better than, you know, an actual individual one-to-one lesson.
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Stuart Winchester: Do you have another meeting right now, or do you have a minute to make fun of my chart.
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Brian Bensch: Uh, let’s do it. Um…
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Stuart Winchester: Alright, so… so, as everyone knows.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, I do big dumb charts, and uh… about…
01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:01.000
Stuart Winchester: once a day, I get an email from someone who’s like, hey, why don’t you do this thing to fix them? And I think they’re mostly missing the point, because what I’m…
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Stuart Winchester: Like, I didn’t have to make this public. It’s a piece of junk worksheet that I made public.
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Stuart Winchester: Just because you could see the chart, right? Just because I was like, why not have this information? So, so what I’m trying to do is just get all this information about ski areas in one place where I don’t have to click through a million pages, where it’s not buried under somebody’s, it’s all just right here. Like anything I need.
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Stuart Winchester: and then I make little breakout tables, so, like, for example.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, if I want to see, like, early bird pass prices.
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Stuart Winchester: for different ski areas. You know, once I learned how to make pivot tables, which any, like, 2-year-old can do, you know, now I can just break this out, and I can just look at them all in order, and I can just do it like this. Inevitably, people, like, they focus too much on what it looks like, and not on the fact that this is exactly what I.
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Stuart Winchester: wanted to build. Now, I wish it would, uh, that I could make it, you know, it’d be nice to make it look better at some point, and it would be nice to be able to make charts easier, and to be able to sort information on demand easier. But that’s sort of my position, and that’s why I’m always.
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Stuart Winchester: Pretty dismissive about, like, all the chart geniuses out there.
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Stuart Winchester: But we’ve had a working relationship for a long time. I respect your opinion. I’m not saying they’re perfect, I’m just saying that it’s gonna take a pretty big boulder to knock me off my position here, so…
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Stuart Winchester: So talk to me, Brian, and talk to the audience more importantly.
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Brian Bensch: All I’ll say is that it’s a blessing and a curse that I think my first shout out in the Storm Ski Journal was when you said someone taught me that pivot tables existed. And I think that was me.
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Brian Bensch: Because you mangling sort of static spreadsheets hand by hand was was an even more painful experience to watch. But the fact that you’ve assembled this data is a hundred percent.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Brian Bensch: a gift to the industry. So thank you. And I’ll more or less say that like data visualization used to be something that people, you know, spend a semester in college studying, or a few years in a white collar job to get good at data visualization.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Sure.
01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:16.000
Brian Bensch: And as much as AI is controversial these days.
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Brian Bensch: We’re going to teach you how to take your…
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Brian Bensch: current outputs and just make it easier for, uh, us on our mobile devices, uh, to look at and get the gist. But the underlying data you put together is incredible. And, you know, uh…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Yep.
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Brian Bensch: And I guarantee you, whether it’s Claude or Gbt or or anything else.
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Brian Bensch: We’ll…
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Brian Bensch: You’re going to be able to create beautiful charts that are still based on the big dumb pivot table that should never go away.
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Stuart Winchester: The, the, the actual, uh, you know, I, I jest, uh, with cockiness, but, um, I, I do…
01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:59.000
Stuart Winchester: really realize that this is a rough draft of what I hope to get to, and.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, it was Joel from OpenSnow who captured this sentiment best. He’s like.
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:11.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, I move very slowly, but I’m always moving forward. And so we’ve seen what he’s built with OpenSnow.
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Brian Bensch: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, you know, I’m building something with the storm, and I’m not saying it’s gonna be at the scale of… of open snow, but… but I am saying that I’m always…
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Stuart Winchester: Aware of the faults and trying to make it better so I do appreciate your insights on a bunch of other things and I think we’ll get to a better place with this eventually.
At first I tried to keep up, but I just sort of surrendered after 2025. I did manage write-ups of Epic Pass additions in Austria, and new Ikon partners in Italy and France, but I never got past more than cursory acknowledgements of Indy’s massive haul of Euro partners from Turkey up through the Alps core to Scotland. And I thought, “OK how many gigantic resorts can they have over there it’s gotta stop soon right?” But they just kept coming like kaijū in Pacific Rim. The pass-by-pass totals headed into winter 2026-27 are shocking:
Here’s a country-by-country breakdown that’s a bit easier to read:
And here’s the detailed roster - not all the lifts are filled in because shoot me:
This chart is the European equivalent of American college football rankings. It makes no sense, but it must be fun because so many people do it, right?
I tried to make a map but it sorta sucks so I’m going to keep trying. I did use the map as a visual aide in the podcast, which is also and always available in audio-only. But if you want to watch above or on YouTube, our conversation will make marginally more sense as I scroll around beneath Iain’s narrative.
Transcripts
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.
Zoom
Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder and host of The Ski Podcast, a UK-based show that just published its 327th episode.
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Stuart Winchester: He’s also a freelance journalist writing for national and specialized press and the owner of a digital marketing consultancy for snow sports. Ian Martin is my guest. He is a good friend of the storm. He has been on the show before and he is here today to help us make sense of Europe. Ian, how you doing today?
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: I am really well, Stuart. It’s really nice to see you, and thank you for inviting me onto the show.
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Stuart Winchester: Before we get started, what do you got lined up for this winter? When do you start skiing?
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: My personal first trip will be out to Les Des Alpes ski resort in France, which I’ll be doing in early December. But I will actually be skiing not next weekend, but the one after in one of our indoor snow slopes.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: in the UK. I’ll be skiing in the snowy center, Manchester, so I’ll get to get my skis on.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’ll be a lot of fun. Yeah, we have the one right over in New Jersey. I was supposed to go a couple of… a couple weeks ago, but I… something came up, and I wasn’t able to make it. Alright, so Ian, let me set this up for the listeners.
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Stuart Winchester: And, and…
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Stuart Winchester: as a baseline for what we’re dealing with here. So, US-based passes, meaning Epic, Icon, and Indy. There’s also one on Mountain Collective, but it overlaps with… there’s two on Mountain Collective that overlap with Icon, so I’.
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Stuart Winchester: So they have added a total of 61 destinations.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mm-hmm.
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Stuart Winchester: in 14 European countries.
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Stuart Winchester: 13 of those are on Epic.
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Stuart Winchester: Nine are on icon.
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Stuart Winchester: 39 are on Indy. Uh, so… some of those are unlimited on Epic, some you get 5 days, some you get 7. Icon’s a pretty standard 7 days, or 5 days, even with the base pass. Indy is 2 days at each.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, 20 of those destinations are in Austria.
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Stuart Winchester: 12 are in Switzerland. Uh, 8 are in France, and they’re all over the place, but those are the countries with the most. So let me… I wanna actually…
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Stuart Winchester: Share on my screen.
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Stuart Winchester: a map that I made that could help us as a little guide, although it’s not a…
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Stuart Winchester: It’s not a great map, but I will…
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay. Can you, can you see the map?
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: I… can see the map, yes.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, I couldn’t figure out how to make the…
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me just explain this at a high level. So, I couldn’t figure out how to make the text smaller, it’s very much a work in progress, but, uh, blue is, uh, the names of the ski areas are by country.
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Stuart Winchester: And the names of the icons are bypassed. So when you zoom down to Austria, it’s Epic, Epic, Indy. Uh, Indy’s red, Icon’s yellow, uh, Epic is blue. This is one where it really helps to watch the video. If not, we’ll explain it, and you don’t have to.
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Stuart Winchester: be watching to understand everything. So, uh, looking at this, Ian, and putting aside my, uh, crappy map design skills, and looking at the full of Europe, from above, from space, as we can do in the future here, uh, where do you even start?
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Well, firstly, I’ve got to congratulate you on your data. It’s just amazing. When you read out all of the different resorts, and the number of countries, and the number of resorts in each country, I’ve got one of your spreadsheets printed out here, and it’s already changed since then. So, staying up to date the whole time is really quite incredible.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: how you manage… how you manage to do that. Um, it is, uh, amazing. In… in respect of the map, there’s obviously a lot of ski areas on there, and probably this is going to be better for someone as a research tool.
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Stuart Winchester: Yep.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, you mentioned that there are 61 countries in total, 61 ski areas in total that are covered on those different passes.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I was thinking about…
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: what is the best way to kind of go into getting a sense for maybe which ones you should visit? Obviously, it’s going to be different for everybody, depending on what kind of pass they have, and I know some people have more than one pass, but I thought that maybe a useful way to do it might be to think of.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Let’s say the hero trip.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Then maybe somewhere you might go.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: for a week, and then somewhere that you might visit if you were… if you were touring, or possibly if you’re over for work, and you happen to be roughly in that area to give people a sense of, you know, where it might be worth doing a little side trip to while they were doing that.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: So if you are happy with that structure, I could work from that. Okay, cool.
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Stuart Winchester: I love it.
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Stuart Winchester: Full speed ahead. Let’s do it.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, cool. So, I think…
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: We’ve seen more Americans coming over to Europe over the last few years, and that is to do with these. That is to do with the passes. No, it’s a pleasure. I mean, I talk to everybody when I’m on a chairlift or in a gondola, and if I hear someone who’s from the States or maybe from Canada, I’m always interested to know, you know, why they’ve come over, and predominantly it’s because.
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Stuart Winchester: Sorry.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: they’ve got the passes. And, you know, I spent a lot of time in Chamonix last winter, and evidently you get a lot of people in Chamonix. Chamonix is one of the ones on the Icon Pass, I believe, as is Zermatt. Now, Chamonix and Zermatt are two amazing destinations. They really are fantastic. You can see them, actually, on the map that you’ve got in the video now.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: They’re quite close to each other. They’re probably about two and a half hours by car apart. You could fly into Geneva for both of them.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: They are fantastic resorts, fantastic destinations. They’re my two favorites in Europe.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: But they’re not necessarily going to be suitable for everyone. And the reason I say that is Chamonix is incredible. It’s in the middle of a very dramatic valley. You have Mont Blanc, the highest mountain in Europe, at 4,800 meters on one side. You can take the Aguille de Midi.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which is the lift that goes up to 3,800 roughly meters. And ski the Valley Blanche from there. Lots of people will have, you know, heard of that very famous off-piste run. It’s incredible just to go up to the Aguirre de Midi.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: But in terms of the ski areas itself, they’re very disparate. They’re not connected, uh, in the same way as we might come onto the Three Valleys, uh, you know, shortly. So…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: you’ve got to put in a bit of legwork if you’re going to go to Chamonix. The connections between them generally involve getting a bus, and even if you’re staying right in the center of town, you’ve got to get a bus.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: or maybe a train from one end of the valley to ski the five different areas that you have in Chamonix-Mont-Blanc. And I think…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I’m not 100%, I’m not the expert on the icon passes, but…
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Icon Pass only covers the lifts that are in that area. There’s also a couple of areas which are included on your map there, actually, Megeve and Les Contamines. You can get a lift ticket in Chamonix when I stay there that covers all of those.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: And you can ski over there as well.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so Mijeve, I’m sorry to interrupt, but Mijeve has been added to the Icon Pass, but it took me so long to sort out even what that meant when they said Mijeve, and even Icon Pass themselves didn’t seem to know. We’ll get to that mess in a little bit, but Mijeve is on the Icon Pass, uh, you know, along with Shamani, and those are separate buckets of days.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh so.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: Then, like in Tammany, which is part of Mijav, is also on Indy.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, exactly. Megeve isn’t really part of Chamonix, but it is covered on that very big pass that you can buy. My point being really that Chamonix is fantastic. It’s an amazing town. It has an incredible history.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s where the first Winter Olympic Games are in 1924. You can get really close to, uh, Mont Blanc. You could ski the Vallee Blanche. There are lots and lots of options for, uh, high mountain skiing, but for a more recreational skier.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s perhaps not as good. If we look at Zermatt, another one, yes, yep.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay, so let me pause one moment on Chamonix first. So, I want to point out, the Icon Pass, for whatever reason, does not cover the Algo de Midi, or whatever, I’m sure I pronounced it wrong, the big tram. How important is it to just pony up, buy that tram ride anyway?
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes, okay.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I mean, we had… we stayed out there for 2 months last winter, and we had lots of friends come to visit us, and with all of them.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: we recommended that you go up there. It really is something quite special, being so high, so close to.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mont Blanc itself, but also just for the type of visitors we had, who weren’t really expert skiers, to get an insight into the high mountain, because you do see skiers who are heading off down the Valley Blanche, and the Valley Blanche is a relatively accessible off-piste run with a guide.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: but other skiers who are doing much more hardcore stuff, or climbers who are up there, who are practicing their mountaineering skills. And if you go up the Aguirre de Midi, you get an insight to all of that. I mean, I met some of your American friends who were over, who were.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really going for it, going down the Cosmic. When I met them, going up with some friends to the Aguirre-Midi, they were on their second ascent of the day. They’d already gone up, done the Valley Blanche, come back up, and then they were on their way down Cosmic to stay in a refuge for the night.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yes.
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Stuart Winchester: Of course, yeah.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: I really would recommend it. And yes, it is expensive.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could even be worth just buying that Montblanc Unlimited ticket in advance, because it’s dynamic pricing. It’s one of those things where if you buy it in advance, it’s less expensive than buying it on the day.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And Mont Blanc, just for my listeners, is, I believe, the tallest mountain in Europe.
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Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, highest mountain in Western Europe. I think it’s 4,810 meters.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
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Stuart Winchester: All right, so over to Zermatt.
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Zermatt, I worked a season there as well. Absolutely beautiful place. Zermatt Matterhorn, as it’s known. The Matterhorn is the standout attraction. It is just an incredible looking mountain.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: The village itself, in my opinion, very pretty. Lots of traditional chalets, traditional buildings.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:55.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: they have controlled development of it. It’s not full of skyscrapers. Without going into the details, there was a proposal to build, you know, one recently that really got it dampened down pretty quickly.
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You can only get there by train. It’s a car-free resort, which adds to the charm as well.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:12.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: really, I would say, if… the only negatives are that it’s quite expensive. It is one of the most expensive destinations in Europe.
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are a lot of, uh, visitors, a bit like Chamonix, who go there not necessarily to ski, but because they want to go and see the Matterhorn, in the same way that you could go up the Agua de Midi in Chamonix. There’s a Gornergrat, uh, cog railway.
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:46.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: which will take you up, uh, to a fantastic view looking over, uh, the Matterhorn. So, I guess you’re competing a little bit with the non-skiers. The ski area itself is better connected than Chamonix. It goes up high. You’ve also got lifts of skiing up to 3,800 meters.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: at the Klein Matterhorn area.
00:18:49.000 --> 00:19:03.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: typically they have summer skiing there as well. It’s actually closed this summer for a little while because of the weather, but, you know, it’s so high, and because of the glacier, they can offer skiing all year round. So, I really do love Zermatt.
00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: The only negative would be…
00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s expensive, you know, you just gotta face up to that fact if you want to go there, but it has a cachet and a feel to it that I just, uh, love.
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:34.000
Stuart Winchester: And one thing this map doesn’t show is it does interconnect with Turbinia, which is now on Icon Pass, but separate days. So once you cross, if you use the day of Zermatt, even if it’s the same day, you cross into Turbinia, you’re using another Icon Pass day. It doesn’t really matter for most Americans who are visiting anyway.
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:39.000
Stuart Winchester: But what do you think about Slovenia? Is it worth it to pop over there?
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, interesting you should mention that. So I picked Chamonix and Zermatt as the first two because they are the most well-known.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:19:47.000 --> 00:20:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But it’s not strictly necessary to go to those two places and base yourself there. And you mentioned that, uh, you know, Cervinia is on… did you… did you say Cervinia is on… sorry, which pass again?
00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:05.000
Stuart Winchester: So, it’s on ICON, and the reason I didn’t have it…
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:12.000
Stuart Winchester: called out. It’s under Valle de Oesta, Italy, so that includes, uh, Pila, it includes, uh…
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:10.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Slovenia, it includes Cormier, it includes some other ones, but I made the map fast.
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:35.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Stuart, you are… you are very well, uh, informed. You’re right. I mean, you can see it on the map that we’re looking at below us. You can get from Chamonix to Courmayeur very easily through the Mont Blanc tunnel. It’s actually a 22 kilometer tunnel, and we skied over in Courmayeur while we were there. Lots of.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:50.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Chamonix, people who are based in Chamonix do go over there, because, uh, although the ski area is limited, there are more trees over there, you know, on a bad weather day, it’s a really good place to ski, and it’s included on the Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass. And Courmayeur is right at the top.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: of the Aosta Valley. So where that little yellow, uh, icon is, underneath where it says Val de Aosta, is Courmayeur.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But the Cormier… if I understand it correctly, then, all of the Aosta Valley resorts are included on the Icon Pass. So, as you say, Cormier… Cormier…
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Correct.
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:26.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s quite a shishi kind of resort. You’ll find lots of Milanese and Turinese will go up there for the weekend. There are lots of very smart shops in the little high street there. There’s some very, very good restaurants up there.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: The ski area is not as big, probably, you know, 50km, two, three days for a, you know, a good advanced skier would be sufficient to ski a lot of it. But you can get access up to the Vallee Blanche from the Italian side as well.
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that lift was upgraded a few years ago. And it’s very, very impressive. It’s much more modern than the Aguirre de Midi. And it has, you know, museums at the mid station and at the top station, which explore the history of mountaineering in the area.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:05.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, I would actually say that if someone’s, you know, looking to stay.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: For a week.
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:19.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: and they have an Icon Pass, that the Ossa Valley could be a really good choice. If you had a car as well, because you can then explore Courmayeur, and then you mentioned Chavinha.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:34.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, uh, slightly further down the valley, uh, and then up the hill, you mentioned that Shavinia links with Zermatt, and Shavinia is a really good resort. It’s high, uh, it has.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Quite wide pistes, quite flattering type of skiing. It has Italian cuisine, as all of the Aosta Valley does. Much.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:55.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: more affordable than Zermatt, but you could ski over to Zermatt for the day and ski the Zermatt area, uh, as well.
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, Chavinha, you know, is great. There’s also a smaller resort called La Tuile, uh, in the Aosta Valley as well, which…
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it is worth a day or two. That actually links over to a French resort called La Rozier. I doubt.
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:21.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: that would be included, and I don’t see it on your list. Uh, and what I do see included a bit further down, we’re moving around the map quite a lot, there is an area called Monterosa.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is on the Aosta Valley as well. Uh, and there’s two areas there called Gressenet.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:41.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, and Alanya, and the skiing in both of those, I believe, is included, uh, within that. And, uh, you know, in Gressenet, uh, and Alanya, there’s some quite advanced skiing there, up in Monterosa.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:53.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, some really good, you know, off-piste, uh, challenging skiing, and in fact, you can do heli-skiing out of those areas. Heli-skiing is banned in France, but it’s legal in Italy, so you can ski, and it’.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh.
00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: legal in Switzerland as well, but you can ski out of Alanya, and heliski up to the mountain called Monterosa, and, uh, you know, access some amazing off-piste from there.
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s incredible. I, you know, for a while, Google Maps took that. I’m looking at the map here and I changed the settings so that the lifts show up. And for a while, Google Maps had taken them off and now they’ve added them back on. And so you can just really get to see the scale of what’s going on in Europe. And I know what Americans are going to want to do.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:29.000
Stuart Winchester: when they look at Chamonix. They’re going to want to take the Algomenidae up, and they’re going to try to ski down into Italy. Is.
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:50.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, I mean, it is possible. Quite literally, if you did that to the Aguirre de Midi, you could ski, you’d have to ski tour up slightly, and then you could ski down. I wouldn’t suggest doing that without a guide. You know, it is feasible to do it, and when last time I went up the, uh, the lift from the Courmayeur side, I saw tracks below.
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:25:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: but it’s not a straightforward route. Cormier’s 1,200 meters, you know, you can get snow all the way to the bottom, but yeah, it’s possible, but definitely, you know, take a guide, I would suggest.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. All right, so let’s continue with the hero trip here. Where next, Ian?
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, again, if you’re thinking about, you know, some of the great resorts in Europe, I’m actually going to pick St. Anton in Austria next, because that is listed on the spreadsheet I’m looking at as Skjalberg.
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: On the epic, on the epic pass.
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. Yeah. Everything has 10 names there. That’s another, that’s another reason I, we needed you on here. Um.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Well…
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:41.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Ski… Ski Aalberg is… so, let’s just have a look at where you are. It’s gonna be slightly to the, uh, west.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.000
Stuart Winchester: There it is. There it is. I found it.
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, there you go, Ski Aalberg. So, Ski Aalberg… Aalberg is, like, a region of Austria that sits within Tyrol, one of the, uh, the cantons, and in fact, that is quite good, the level that you’ve got it at right there. You can see, just on the video that I’m looking at, uh, at the moment.
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, there we go.
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: That you’ve got St. Anton is sitting almost underneath where it says Ski Aalberg. It’s pretty easy to get to.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can get there… you can fly into either Innsbruck, or you can fly into Zurich. For, you know, I typically travel by train, but, you know, from both of those, it’s about an hour and a half or so by train.
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, roughly, uh, transfer time. A really good train station in St. Anton. And St. Anton…
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: is an amazing destination. I was lucky enough to learn to ski there, you know, when I was a kid.
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:50.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I think what… it ticks a lot of boxes. It does have, uh, maybe contrary to some people’s impressions, amazing food.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:01.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: There’s, like, a Michelin-star restaurant at the mid-station, just above a resort, which is, you know, well worth checking out. But lots of resorts, lots of restaurants in the town as well.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Has legendary apres ski.
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:12.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are two bars located opposite each other, which some listeners may have heard of, called the Crazy Kangaroo.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And the moose avert.
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And these are, like, legendary at the end of the day. Skiers will go there, they’ll be dancing on the tables, they’ll be, uh, you know, knocking back whatever they can, and then skiing down very, very carefully.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:44.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, to the resort, the remaining, kind of, 500 meters or so. They do actually encourage people to get a bus back, uh, now, uh, if you can, because there is a little bit of a history of… of accidents, but those two, you know, have amazing apres ski.
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:00.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good restaurants, but the ski area is fantastic. Ski Aalberg covers all of the resorts in that area. On the level of maps on at the moment, you can see over to the left, there’s an area called St. Christoph. You can link over to St. Christoph.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:08.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can link over to Steuben, quite easy to ski over there, and then just to the north of the map, as we’re looking at it at the moment, will be Lech.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:17.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is also part of Ski Aalberg. You know, you can stay in Lech. I tend to favor St. Anton, there’s a lot more going on. Lech is a bit…
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: how can I put it? Posher, quite frankly. You know, frequented by the Dutch royal family and, uh, and others. You know, the British royal family historically used to go there as well. You can actually ski on Ski Arburg all the way up to that town called.
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Vaath, or Vaath, which is right at the top of the map. That is a very long day, and the connections to there are quite difficult. But it is a…
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, gosh.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.000
Stuart Winchester: You can ski from there to…
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, you could ski between there and St. Anton and back in a single day. You can get a certificate if you follow the whole route and do it. But it is a very large ski area. But St. Anton itself, really brilliant place to base yourself.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:46.000
Stuart Winchester: You’re saying, wow.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Jeez.
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:06.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, lift connections are really good, the resort is really good, and, you know, that would be one of the reasons I would suggest that.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And just another kind of equivalent destination for the hero trip. Oh, sorry. Go on. Go on. Yes.
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Let me just pause and ask you one question about Ahlberg. So, you know, again, Americans are…
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:34.000
Stuart Winchester: And that’s, I don’t want to mean to speak for the whole nation, but they tend to fall into the checklist trap where they’re just trying to get to everything. Would you recommend trying to ski from here to there, or would you recommend settling in, kind of enjoying a day at each, or maybe just.
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Hmm.
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Seeing where the day takes you, not worrying about all the lifts.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:53.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I mean, I would only do that for a long way to go. I mean, it’s quite a long way to go to Lech and back for the day. And there is a lot of really good skiing in St. Anton. I actually tend to favor the St. Christoph Steuben.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: area, because it doesn’t get skied as much as some of the other areas, and there’s a lot to ski there, so you can have peace to yourself, whereas it might be much busier closer to St. Anton. There’s actually another area you can see with the lifts that you’ve got there going slightly south.
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: from St. Anton, that goes to an area called Rendle, which is part of the Ski Arburg area. And, you know, Rendle is another really good ski area that’s often underskied. I mean, you could spend a day skiing over there on its own.
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Is… is that… is that part of Ski Aalberg? On the Epic Pass? It is? Okay. Okay.
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s part of Schiberg as well, yeah.
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, great. All right. Anwar, you were gonna tell us about another, I think, Austrian destination.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I was gonna go the other… the other very obvious, I would say.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Um…
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Big destination is Verbier.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which I believe is also on the Epic Pass.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:58.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so Verbier’s in Switzerland, quite close to Chamonix. You can drive between Chamonix and Verbier in an hour and a quarter. Again, you’d fly into Geneva.
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Ah, yeah, let’s…
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Oh, there it is.
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: really easy to get to from Geneva. You can actually get the train all the way from Geneva Airport direct to the town at the bottom of Verbier, which is called Le Chapelle, and then they have a gondola, which, uh… which you guys call a tram, I think, or, uh…
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.000
Stuart Winchester: There.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s a bubble lift, however you want to term it, that goes directly from the valley floor, connects directly out of the railway station and up into Verbier.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, Verbier…
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Brilliant resort. Such an amazing ski area. It’s actually listed on there as a Catra Valley, the Four Valleys, and that’s because it also includes several other resorts as well, which are called, I think, Lazu… you can just about see them. Lazuma, Nonda.
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:48.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: and Vaesuna, which are just slightly to the north there.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:32:00.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so they’re all included in that area. It’s a big ski area, but Verbier has a lot going on. Uh, again, you know, good apres ski, really good, uh, restaurants, uh, but.
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Particularly for the more advanced skiers, there’s some incredible off-piste there. You know, you can…
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: um… go off… off the back from the top of Mon4.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: with a guide, just again, and there’s a huge area that can open up there. You can also do heli skiing out of Verbier to access some of the other peaks around there, but you can stay in the inbounds area and still ski a lot of really good off-piste.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s high as well, you know, the resort itself is 1600 meters, and I think it goes up to.
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: 3… 2… I’m not 100% sure about that, but certainly high. So, you know, you have regular snow. I mean, I skied there in the last week of…
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: April last year.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:47.000 --> 00:33:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: and there was still plenty of snow. Um, it’s, you know, it’s expensive. It’s not quite as expensive as, uh, Zermatt. It doesn’t have the view of the Matterhorn, but it is one of the world’s best ski resorts, for sure.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000
Stuart Winchester: So that’s on Epic Pass, and it’s, you know, Vail has purchased a couple of ski areas at Kranz, Montana, and Andermatt-Suderun, and it’s also… the Epic Pass is unlimited on DeSantis, which is right.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:23.000
Stuart Winchester: contiguous with the Entermeister Druun. If you have the Epic Pass, is it worth trying to do a trip with all of those, or is Verbier enough?
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:32.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And Verbier’s definitely enough for a whole week. If you had a car, Cro-Montana isn’t very far away, it would probably only take you…
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, an hour and a bit… I’m gonna say an hour and a quarter, perhaps, to, uh, get there. Cremontana’s a big area in itself. It’s, um… you know, I’ve skied there on many occasions, and I really like it. It’s not… I’ve been there…
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: On a family holiday.
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:48.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Whereas…
00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I would go to Verbier because I like to ski kind of, uh, steep and off-piste, uh, you know, with a guide. And probably it’s too expensive to take a family to. Cromontana is, uh, you know, a bit more, uh, affordable. I mean, it’s still a very smart, uh, resort.
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But if you wanted to explore, you could go there. Amount is a bit more of a stretch in terms of distance.
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:18.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, if you were on a tour, and you’re an Epic Pass holder, you could take it in.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, I’m also a fan of Andermatt. I’ve been there several times, uh, as well. Again, probably go to Zurich for Andermatt. You can get the train from Zurich in about an hour and a half, something like that. And it’s a really interesting story, uh, Andermatt. You know, it used to be…
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Its location is strategically significant in the middle of several valleys. So at once upon a time, it used to be an army base.
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:55.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And then, when the army, uh, withdrew, it kind of went into decline for a long time. And it was bought by, uh, the area was brought by a property developer.
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:08.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And ultimately, he built it up, and more recently, Vale Resorts have taken that over. And so there’s a lot of new accommodations, some incredibly nice restaurants. Again, more Michelin stars there. I’ve got a feeling…
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It might have the highest number of Michelin stars per capita for any.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: town in the world.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:26.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the skiing itself, you know, again, I’ve been there with a guide, there’s some excellent off-piste skiing, but there’s, you know, a good amount of on-piste skiing as well.
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s a really, it’s really appealing area.
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Stuart Winchester: So you mentioned having a guide many times, and I think that’s, you know, in…
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Heh.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:45.000
Stuart Winchester: in North America, we generally only hire guides when we’re going outside of the resort, and a lot of folks don’t even do it then, if they’re confident in their own avalanche.
00:35:45.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Stuart Winchester: capabilities. In general, everything within resort boundaries in North America is considered to be patrolled and controlled, meaning they’ll do avalanche work, and if it’s open, you can go in it without a guide. There’s a few exceptions where you need transceivers, etc.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:13.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s not really the case in Europe, so just from a mentality standpoint, how should skiers approach this when they’re going to some of these hero resorts you’re talking about, as far as.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Considering a guide in essential versus a luxury.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, I wouldn’t want to mislead you there. I mean, guides are just on my mind, because I like a lot of backcountry skiing, and therefore, I often, you know, go with them. In bounds, you don’t need a guide, absolutely not. You know, you can download the app, or get yourself a peace map, and you can.
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: go around the place as much as you want, and, uh, you know, it is fully secured, you’ve got ski patrol, uh, etc, so you don’t need to be concerned about that. It just happens that a lot of the places that I’ve mentioned so far, you know, do have some of those more interesting off-piste options, and I guess it depends a bit on the listener and, you know, what they’re, uh, looking for, but you… you don’t…
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:06.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: need to have a guide to show you around resorts. I mean, potentially, some of these ski areas are.
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: significantly larger than they might come across in North America, and therefore.
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could be a good investment to rent someone or to hire someone to show you around. I mean, back in the day, in the 90s, when I was working in the Alps, I worked for British tour operators, and part of my job was showing guests around the mountains and helping them orientate themselves.
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that actually is pertinent, because the next resort I wanted, or area I wanted to mention, was Le Trois Vallees, Le Three Valleys.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which…
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Also on Epic Pass.
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: also is on Epic Pass. Now, the three valleys…
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: probably has a pretty good awareness amongst the North American market. I mean, it is the world’s largest ski area.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:53.000 --> 00:38:01.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: There’s 600 kilometers apiece there, and I work four seasons in the three valleys, three in Meribel and one in Courchevel.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Peace.
00:37:58.000 --> 00:37:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow.
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it is.
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: magnificent in terms of scale. There is so much skiing you can do there, and, you know, I worked four winters there. Did I ski every single run, you know, during that time? I doubt it.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:24.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, because you tend to go back and forth across a lot of them. Uh, you know, there is so much that it’s gonna take you well more than a week if you wanted to, uh.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: ski them all, but you could certainly explore the three valleys.
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:39.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, I… it’s hard to know exactly which of those destinations to recommend, because it depends on the individuals to…
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:46.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: put it in context, you have three valleys, literally, over, if we were looking on the map, the left-hand side, you would have Courchevel.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle, Maribel.
00:38:49.000 --> 00:39:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the right-hand side, Val Torrens. I think as we look at the map at the moment, it’s the opposite way round. So we can see on the left, you’ve got Val Torrens at the top. That’s the highest ski resort in Europe. It’s 2,300 meters itself, the resort. Not high by, like, Colorado standards or something like that, but high by European standards.
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:19.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s above the tree line, uh, you know, it’s changed a lot in recent years, but there’s a lot of apartment accommodation there, there’s a lot of nice four- and five-star hotels up there, uh, as well, but it doesn’t have.
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Like, if you were coming to Europe for the first time, it doesn’t have the kind of character, the charisma.
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: that some other resorts, let’s say, like Verbier, or Zermatt, or St. Anton have, because it’s modern, you know, it was built in the 1970s, so it’s a purpose-built, uh, resort. Also, in that valley slightly lower down, you have Leymanduia, more.
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Prettier, you know, at the bottom, you’ve got a place called San Martin.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle valley, Meribel.
00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: that is lots of pretty chocolate box chalets. Uh, you know, I worked 3 years there. It’s brilliantly connected. Uh, the resort itself is between 1,400 and 1,800 meters, so it’s pretty high.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, it’s a good…
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: base, I’d still, if you were thinking about that, I’d still, you know, without wishing to offend any of my friends in Mirabal, and I have very many of them, I’d probably say if you think about a week and you wanted to base yourself somewhere.
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Maybe Verbier or Saint Anton.
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: would be a better choice for that. They both have, you know, still big ski areas, and just a little bit more accessibility, uh, you know, overall.
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:39.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel, again, a resort I love that I worked in for a season.
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: There’s several different…
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:46.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, what the French call station, different levels within Courchevel.
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:01.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel 1850, most people will have heard of. It’s a top station. It’s at 1850 meters. It is very shishy. Five and six star hotels, 13 Michelin stars.
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, across the resort, it… you can’t find… well, I have stayed there in a couple of budget accommodations, but there’s not really budget accommodation. You know, if you want to go and…
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: to a resort where you may well end up, you know, sharing a hotel with, I don’t know, Leo DiCaprio, or, you know, you might find a member of the British Royals there, or David Beckham, then that’s the kind of place to go.
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But you’re going to have to pay to go along with that. And it has fantastic skiing.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But again.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: if you’re only coming for a shorter period of time, I’d be inclined to mention a couple of the other resorts I mentioned, plus…
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:54.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I want to mention Valdezare as well, but I don’t think Valdezare is on any of the collective passes, is it?
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Uh, is it part of one of these bigger…
00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Domains or.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:05.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: No, it is not. I mean, there is a, uh… so it’s not going to come up on your map.
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But Valdisera is a brilliant…
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:24.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, resort, which does give you traditional skiing, a pretty village, a huge, uh, ski area that links up to Teen, where they have a glacier, so you can kind of guarantee that you’re going to be able to get skiing. Skiing goes up to 3,500 meters there.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I met Americans there, so Americans certainly know about it. I met a family from, you know, Florida who were in the Folly Deuce, who were enjoying themselves in the VIP area and very kindly, you know, offered us some of their champagne.
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:53.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, at the time. You know, Founders Area is a brilliant resort, not covered on any of those passes. That doesn’t mean that it’s not necessarily going to be, you know, a good option, uh, for you. You know, lift tickets.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:42:53.000 --> 00:43:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: are going to be, you know, dirt cheap compared to the States, but maybe still, like, 80 euros a day, or something like that, you know, overall, but a really good ski area. So those are all… I think we’ve covered all of the, kind of, the bigger.
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: kind of places there, unless you’ve got any other questions in relation to any of them. Oh, no, hold on! We’ve missed one! We’ve missed one! Dolomitiski!
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.000
Stuart Winchester: No. Yeah.
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: That’s on Icon, isn’t it?
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, Dolomiti Super Ski is on Icon, Skirama Dolomiti is on Epic. They each have, like, 100 ski areas, it seems like, so… yeah, this is how they’re pitched to us. I don’t know how you want to make sense to them on the ground… of them on the ground.
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:51.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, let’s talk Dolomiti superskis. That’s where the Winter Olympics were last year. Milan Cortina. Cortina is in the Dolomites. And it is a huge superski area, you know, depending how you do the definitions, it’s larger.
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: than L’Etoile Vallee.
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, but…
00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:01.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Sometimes that means getting a bus in between. Uh, it is…
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It is great. You could fly into Innsbruck, you could fly into Venice, you can combine that with a trip to Venice, or maybe Verona, or Milan. They’re all about equidistance from the Dolomiti Sufski.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s visually accurate.
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Absolutely stunning. The Dolomites are just an amazing mountain range. I found myself when I was skiing in Val Gardena, which we’ll come to right in the middle of your map at the moment, just being distracted.
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m looking at the mountains, because they’re just so gorgeous. I’m skiing down this piste. You know, looking at this mountain, thinking, oh my god, this is just amazing. And then on top of that, you know, you have.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yah.
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:58.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Italian cuisine, Italian prices, you know, yeah, Cortina’s the most expensive. Again, quite a lot of, uh, you know, Milanese would go up there for the weekend, but, you know, overall, Selva, again, roughly around the middle of your, uh, map at the moment. Yeah, really…
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good value, you know, considering it’s a really good access point for a fantastic ski area.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it has…
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Superski is not a misnomer. It is a very large ski area.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:27.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And there’s some amazing circuits that you can do there. So I would probably recommend, if you were thinking about it, Cortina or Silva Val Gardena would be the two best places to locate yourself.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:37.000
Stuart Winchester: And do you like Superski over Vail’s Skirama Dolomiti group? And again, I’ve dug in a little bit, but I didn’t include on this map what that…
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.000
Stuart Winchester: contains, and I dropped the pin here on, uh, Campo Carlomagno, but…
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.000
Stuart Winchester: It includes a lot of things in, you know, almost equal.
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:58.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I’m gonna have to put my hand up and say I don’t know that area as well. I haven’t actually skied there myself. It is, to my mind, and I can check your stats because I’ve got it in front of me, you’re saying it’s roughly the same skiable area.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right. Was that the vertical drop?
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s the stats that…
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Stuart Winchester: or on the Epic Pass website.
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Which I’ve yeah.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I think the Dolomiti Super Ski is significantly bigger than what’s available at Ski-Rama Dolomiti. Yeah, it’s a possibility. It wouldn’t be my…
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:30.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: If I was sending someone to the Dolomites, I would suggest probably that I would go for Selva Val Gardena or Cortina as being the two locations. Cortina being the slightly more expensive Shishi destination and Val Gardena.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, being the more affordable, but in fact, brilliantly located.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, so you wanted to start with the kind of hero trips and then take us into the next level.
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Heh.
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:49.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, I mean, I guess it depends, you know, how long you would be thinking about going for.
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:56.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But I noticed that on the Indy Pass, Innsbruck is covered.
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:00.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And Innsbruck is a really good destination.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it often gets overlooked, you know, people just kind of pass through Innsbruck, but I’ve based myself, you know, in Innsbruck before. You can actually see that if you stay in Innsbruck, if you don’t go too close in.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: there are a lot of ski resorts in a very, uh, close proximity to it. So, it’s a city itself. People live there, you know? It has everything you’d think a city would have, but without it being.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:33.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Very big. There is actually a ski area immediately.
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:44.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: above the, uh, the town itself, called Nordketter, which is pretty small. But what’s great about being based in Innsbruck is you can get to other ski areas within…
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:58.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: half an hour, you can get to, uh, um, a ski area. Uh, I’m just looking at the map there. Oh, yeah, it closed in. Okay, so Kutai is not very far away, about, you know, 30 minutes.
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m looking at a map and just getting my head around what’s going on there.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the Innsbruck Ski and City Network that’s on India covers 12 ski areas, and I didn’t mark them all on this map, so again, I made this one in.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I…
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I think that’s a really slightly under the radar type of a destination that you can go to, you can base yourself there, you can enjoy. There’s a lot of culture, there’s a lot of history there.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:36.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, in terms of the, the Habsburg Empire, et cetera, the different museums, uh, that you can go and visit as well. Uh, but it’s a very modern city. They’ve got an amazing, um.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh…
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:52.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: funicular that’s designed by Zaha Hadid, that’s won awards, and you’re within 30 to 40 minutes of a lot of ski areas, so I don’t exactly know what the 12 are, but it’s probably Solden, which you can see there, you know, that’s going to be the.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, Sultans aren’t epic.
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:55.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Ah, right, okay.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so let me see if I can bring up the, uh…
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:56.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: at…
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Kutai, but I still rate it as a destination, and even if you’re going up there and you actually had to buy a ticket for the day, it’s not going to be that much. You’ve got several glaciers nearby, and you can fly into the city itself. I mean, I don’t know if you get…
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Bye.
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Right, right.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:19.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: transatlantic flights into Innsbruck.
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:21.000
Stuart Winchester: I’m not certain. I’d have to check.
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: That would be.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:30.000
Stuart Winchester: So, let’s see, if we go to Austria, and okay, this is the list, the ones in yellow.
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, just…
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:44.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Ah, right, okay, so Stubai is included. Rakutai is included, that’s only half an hour away, that’s about 60 kilometers apiece. I’ve done a family holiday there, you know, really good. Nordketter that I mentioned is the one just above Innsbruck itself.
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, yeah, you know, there’s plenty of skiing there. They’ve got, um, you know, connections that you can take to all of these different ski resorts, uh, on a daily basis. I really like that as a kind of underrated, different cultural experience that you could, uh, that you could go for.
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you only get 2 days between all 12 on Indy, but there are a bunch of other Indy.
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:24.000
Stuart Winchester: mountains around there. I don’t even know how to pronounce these things, but they’re all on the map, and I have the charts, which I’ll include in the article that accompanies us on stormskiing.com. But if you have an Indy Pass and you’re in the area, anything else you see here that you’re like, oh, that’s pretty cool. So again, the Indy are the red pins.
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:36.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m looking at your list there, you know, Obertower, and Karnatal, and Glacier, Pitstala. Yeah, you know, there’s some really good skiing that’s going to cover quite a lot. Shevelt.
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:53.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s a bit further away, but that’s a big ski area as well. You know, slightly lower, but, uh, you know, really nice connections. And what I didn’t realize, and I mentioned this in relation to St. Anton earlier, is that, you know, historically, people have thought of Austria as having, kind of.
00:50:53.000 --> 00:51:05.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I don’t know, quite sort of, like, let’s say, lumpy cuisine. The Italians get all their credit, but the food in Austria, you know, is really good. It’s completely different from.
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: what people’s preconceptions, uh, might be. It’s definitely worth going there and experiencing it, just for the gastronomy side of things as well.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.000
Stuart Winchester: And how much is it?
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:23.000
Stuart Winchester: worth focusing on those big names, the, you know, Arlbergs and the Verbiers, and… and the, uh…
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:26.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, Zermatti, is it?
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:38.000
Stuart Winchester: if you want to go to, like… so, for example, if we were to do this show in the flip, right, and I were to take you through where to go in America on passes.
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:47.000
Stuart Winchester: I would give you the big ones, but there’s a lot of little ones where you could have a really good ski day. It might not be the complete…
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:52.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, American ski experience, but you’d have a lot of fun. So…
00:51:52.000 --> 00:52:08.000
Stuart Winchester: How would you describe the smaller, all these little ones we’ve never heard of that, that Indy are signing up as, you know, just a place to stop and ski for a day? Is it worth just maybe doing that and hopping around on, on a road trip?
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.000
Stuart Winchester: And if so, are there any of these that stand out for you?
00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, that’s a really good question, and, you know, I…
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:30.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you’re… I know you’re a fan of independent ski resorts, and, uh, you know, I recently, uh, interviewed Eric Mogensen, who you’ve interviewed before, and he’s obviously incredibly passionate about independent ski resorts, and I think it’s important, because one of the points he made to me is.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:40.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: if we don’t visit these places, you know, they’re gonna go out of business, aren’t they? So we need to go to them as well, we can’t just focus on them. And there are some really good ones on that list. Um…
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Thank you.
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Ja.
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Let’s see, lacontamine.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:51.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: That’s near to Chamonix. It’s a pretty small resort. It’s at the end of the valley.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:52:51.000 --> 00:53:06.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: So it doesn’t… you know, a lot of people… you can… you can kind of see exactly on that map there, the road just stops at Le Contamine, right? So you’ve got to make a bit of an effort to go up there. But I skied there… I’ve skied there only two days ever.
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Ja.
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Hi.
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:08.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But it’s brilliant.
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Ja.
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:10.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s brilliant, because…
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:23.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s a big ski area, it’s a big bowl at the end of the valley. You know, I know lots of resorts claim they have, like, a microclimate, but it does have this microclimate. It collects all the snow that comes along that, uh, valley.
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s quiet, and you can see from the lifts there.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:38.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, that’s a decent ski area. It doesn’t actually… it’s slightly misleading, that map, because it doesn’t link in with the Megeve ski area.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Lake Contamine, but that’s good, because it means the people from Meshev can’t get over there. So, it’s, uh, I mean, you could, you could do it by a bootwhacking a bit, but, uh, you know, Lake Contamine, really good one. If you were doing a tour and you wanted to visit a more independent place, then that would be a really good one. Another one.
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Ich.
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Ja.
00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: is Pila in the Aosta Valley, so it’s going to be slightly to the right on your map, uh, there. I can see it there in purple.
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now it’s over on the left there.
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Alles.
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, so Pila…
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:20.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Again, I don’t… I know that we discussed the Eostre Vale being included on the Icon Pass, and Pila is in…
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mhm.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s on both Indy and Icon, it’s just weird exception, yeah.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:22.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: There you’ll still…
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It is. Okay. So…
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Just Pila, just Pila.
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:27.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, well, Pilar…
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, is a small resort, uh, although a decent, uh, ski area. You know, off the top of my head, I would guess it probably has, you know, like a 60 kilometers or something like that. But it sits above a town called Aosta. The valley is called Aosta. And if you’re doing a tour, staying in Aosta is actually great.
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:54:44.000 --> 00:55:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: there’s a strong, uh, Roman, uh, connection with that town. And in fact, you can see there, it says Teatro Romano on that, uh, when you went in closer. You know, there’s an old Roman amphitheater that you can have a little wander around. There’s arches, uh, in the town there that you can have a look at.
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, jeez.
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Look at that.
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, you get…
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:20.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: a sense of that history if you’re staying down in Aosta, and then there’s a… you can see the lift that connects up from Aosta into the Pila ski area. So, that, if you wanted to visit a more of an independent, uh, resort, is a really interesting way.
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:26.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: of doing it that perhaps, you know, people wouldn’t necessarily think of.
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:31.000
Stuart Winchester: So these… it’s weird when you zoom out, right? And…
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:32.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.
00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:38.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, I have them in different colors for countries, and you can’t really see the names of them right now, but really, it’s all kind of Alps, right?
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:53.000
Stuart Winchester: But there’s also some places outside the Alps that have joined these passes. One that I find really interesting, just because I really like this part of the world, is these areas up in Scandinavia. I mean, if you just want something different.
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes?
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Right? And your expectation is not mind-blowing skiing, but just…
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:09.000
Stuart Winchester: to see it for the novelty. What do you think about flying in to Norway, renting a car, and just kind of popping around all these places up here, Norway, Finland, and Sweden?
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, again, firstly, I haven’t skied there myself, but on the Ski Podcast, we have covered most of these destinations, because there is, from the UK market, an increasing interest in going over to Scandinavia, and I think partly that is because there’s a sense that.
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: They have better snow reliability.
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: because they’re further north, they’re less subject to any climate change issues. I think the difference is that you’re going to get skiing in Scandinavia is you don’t get as big a vertical drop. The mountains are not as high as they are in the Alps, so.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:56.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, typically, you know, the… I mean, sometimes you can ski down. I have lots of friends who’ve been ski touring, who can… will do it from sea level.
00:56:56.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:12.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: and ski tour up, but you’re talking about much shorter vertical drops, so it might be 3, 4, 500 meters, uh, as opposed to some of the, you know, the big vertical drops that you can get, like in Zermatt, you can ski from 3,800 down to 1,400, so that’s a.
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: A massive, massive run!
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:24.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: to do in one go, which is next to impossible. You would possibly set that against Scandinavia being pretty expensive as well.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:39.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, that might be how we view it from Britain, you know, converting. I don’t know how it would relate in the US dollar, but, you know, from the UK, Scandinavia, Sweden, and Norway would be equivalent to…
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s the same.
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, the Zermatt Switzerland kind of prices.
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: If you get a package.
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:57.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: it can save you money, and the lift ticket isn’t necessarily more expensive. It’s more about, if you want to buy a pint, buy yourself a beer at the end of the day, then be prepared, because it’s going to be quite expensive.
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Gosh, is it like Iceland? I was driving around Iceland, and I’m.
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:06.000
Stuart Winchester: I just want to grab a beer to have at my Airbnb afterwards, we had a baby at the time.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mm-hmm.
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.000
Stuart Winchester: And I go into, like, 4 grocery stores, and they all have…
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay.
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Beer, that’s like 0. 01%. I’m like, where you can get a beer in this country? Like, oh, you have to go to a, a state owned store. These stores are open from like 11 to 5, like four days a week. So it took me a long time to find a beer. And when I did, it was like.
00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:33.000
Stuart Winchester: $50 for a, uh, for a 12-pack of cans. I was like, oh my god.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:50.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay. Well, I don’t think it’s quite that difficult to get a drink in Sweden and Norway, but it is an option. And you mentioned some of the, you know, other destinations. Let’s take the Pyrenees. So, the Pyrenees is that range of mountains that runs between Spain and France.
00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:58.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And you’ve got a couple of areas highlighted there. So taking the one on the left to start off with, which is Bakira Beret.
00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:14.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that is the largest ski resort in Spain. You know, you would get a lot of people from Barcelona going up there. It’s gone quite upmarket in recent years. The Spanish royal family have often skied there, has a really good snow record.
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:23.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You might think that’s surprising, because it’s quite a long way south. But that is… remind me what pass that one is included on? It’s on the Indy Pass.
00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.000
Stuart Winchester: This is on Andy. Yep.
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay. You know, and it’s… it’s a good ski area, and if you’re doing a tour.
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:34.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: and you wanted to try something different from the Alps, and get a bit of Spanish culture.
00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:37.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: That would be really interesting.
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:38.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: At…
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and Spain tends to be less expensive, although I heard that may be changing a bit.
00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes. No, no, no. I would definitely agree with that. It’s definitely less expensive overall. I mean, Bakira Beret.
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so… yeah.
00:59:47.000 --> 01:00:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: These days, you’ll find a few champagne bars there. It’s not going to be as cheap as some of, you know, the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, but it still would represent much better value for money than, you know, a lot of the bigger resorts in Europe.
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s right.
00:59:55.000 --> 00:59:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:09.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And then Andorra, Gran Valera, covers several different resorts.
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s a decent ski area, and not quite as good a snow record, but…
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:28.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I haven’t been there, uh, myself. I skied lots of the French Pyrenees, but not the Andorran, uh, Pyrenees. But, we have friends, uh, you know, who go there every year, and they absolutely, uh, love it.
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:42.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: if I was… it sits on the Icon Pass, you know, if I had an Icon Pass and I was thinking about where I was going to go, I probably wouldn’t make that, you know, my priority, given that some of the other, you know, great options that you’ve got with Icon.
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Right, right. All right. Yeah.
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:52.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You could go to Dolomiti or you could go to Val de Oster. I think I probably prioritize that over going to Andorra.
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s. Yeah.
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:54.000
Stuart Winchester: So the cool thing about…
01:00:54.000 --> 01:01:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Europe. I mean, I’m bucketing this by pass, just because that’s how we have been trained as American consumers to think about skiing, because if you don’t have a pass, it’s very hard to just hop around and ski. And you could do that 20 years ago here, but you really can’t do it anymore, because the walk-up prices are.
01:00:57.000 --> 01:00:59.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:29.000
Stuart Winchester: $300 and upwards at the bigger resorts on the peak days and the peak of winter. And even on low days, they’re going to be over $200, which is just not worth it for any day of skiing that doesn’t involve a helicopter. So, you know, I’m bucketing these bypasses. You probably don’t.
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Need a pass to go to Europe, so…
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:43.000
Stuart Winchester: If you don’t have a pass, and you’re not locked into these, and you called out a couple that weren’t here, are there any big holes anywhere where you think…
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:51.000
Stuart Winchester: a skier really shouldn’t overlook this region as a consideration just because it’s not on their pass? Or… region or ski area?
01:01:51.000 --> 01:02:05.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay. I mean, that’s a really interesting question. I guess the most obvious one is what I mentioned before, which is Val d’Azur. You know, Val d’Azur is definitely one of the best, the world’s best ski resorts, ski areas, and it’s not included on there at all.
01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:07.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Um, and in that…
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:11.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Valley, which is called the Tarantes.
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:24.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: we mentioned the Three Valleys, which is one of the first areas that you would go past, uh, on the way. But a bit further, uh, along that valley, you can also ski in, uh, Les Arc.
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:29.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, you know, La Plan, those two together are called Paradisky.
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:38.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, they are… it’s a big ski area, again, some really good skiing there. If it was going to be your only ever trip.
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:39.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: To Europe?
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:55.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I probably would recommend, you know, going to Val d’Isere or, uh, or Les Trois Vallees instead, but, you know, I’m a big fan of Les Arc. It’s more apartments, they do have hotels there as well, but they’ve got it right in the middle, uh, there, which is great.
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can’t, uh, quite… yeah, you can see La Planne in the bottom left of that map. So those two areas link together. So there’s a massive amount of skiing if you want to, uh, if you want to do it, and it’s high, and it’s typically, you know, north-facing, so it’s… snow is, uh, is really good around there.
01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But if you’re coming from the States.
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:22.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, I would go to Val d’Isere or L’Etoile Vallee if I was going to that area instead.
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this is so good, Ian, and I mean, we could do this all day. In the interest of respecting your time, because we’re already a half hour over what I made this call for, anything else you want to call out.
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:46.000
Stuart Winchester: in Europe, European skiing, that if someone’s coming from North America and making the investments, that they should see, or do, or think about, or be aware of, or go to?
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:57.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I mean, I guess the only other thoughts are… because we’ve covered, you know, a lot of them. There’s two that… or three that aren’t on your map at the moment. I was very…
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I don’t know, amused, interested to see that the two Scottish resorts, Glencoe and Glenshee, are included on the Indy Pass. Now, I’m definitely not going to recommend that someone comes all the way from the States to go and ski there.
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: purely for that. But if you’re on a business trip, let’s say, and that business trip happened to take you to Glasgow or Edinburgh, and it happened to be snowy at that time, I think you would find it really interesting going to probably, you know, Glencoe over Glenshee.
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:48.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Firstly, it’s absolutely beautiful, the area. I mean, Glencoe itself is an incredible valley to drive along. And the ski area is, you know, they don’t claim it’s a three valley. It’s pretty limited.
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
01:04:48.000 --> 01:05:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s Scottish skiing, and you just have to have a bit of luck, and if you have a bit of luck, you can have incredible skiing. And, you know, my, um, my family, my mum, you know, came from Scotland and learned to ski around that area, and I’ve been up there a few times, and at the moment.
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:13.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I have a gap in my diary in January, and it says Scotland in there. But what… because…
01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:22.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: the snow can come and go very quickly. I’ll have to just decide, you know, a few days beforehand if that’s going to work. If it looks alright.
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:23.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m going.
01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:32.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: But, you know, even from Brighton, you know, south coast of England, I mean, we’re in the same country, but it’s still quite a long way away. So those are two…
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Would you still do train?
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:47.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I would do train. You can get the, uh, Caledonian Sleeper overnight train from London to Edinburgh, and in fact, it goes all the way through to very close to Glencoe, so that would work, uh, that would work really well. So, fingers crossed.
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Sure. Okay. Okay.
01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:56.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, for… for that one. And the other ones I wanted to mention that are definitely off the beaten track are in Turkey, which are also on the Indy Pass, I would guess.
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes, all three of these are in Indy.
01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:57.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.
01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, and, you know, again.
01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:03.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: If…
01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:20.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you wanted to build in, or you were going to a business meeting, let’s say in Istanbul, or something like that, I think it would be super interesting. I haven’t skied in these areas, but they’re definitely on my list, you know, to ski in. We have covered them on the Ski Podcast, uh, before.
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:22.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: And…
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:34.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: there’s a real interest in skiing in Turkey, and not… not specifically from the UK, but across Europe, you know, they’re drawing in… these areas, you might think of them as being…
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:51.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: your typical cliched assumption would be, oh, they’re a bit old, they’ve probably got really old lifts, etc. They’re investing a lot of money in these areas. They’re getting a lot of that increasing middle class coming from the Stans, who are just over to the east of there.
01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:06:51.000 --> 01:07:02.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Kazakhstans and, uh, all the rest of them. Yeah, Georgia, uh, you know, there we go, that shows it pretty well. Uh, you know, they’re getting a lot of people coming over from there to ski.
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:04.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and…
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:16.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: I think it looks really interesting. Turkey’s a really fast-moving country at the moment. I’d love to go to Istanbul. You know, it’s definitely on my list of places to try out. So, I wouldn’t come to Europe.
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:31.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: from the States, just to ski in Turkey, but if, by chance, you’re an IndyPass holder, and you happen to be going nearby, I mean, even if you’re going to Georgia or something like that, you know, it’s probably not going to affect a high proportion of your listeners, but there’ll be someone out there, yeah, go on.
01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:35.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Go and have a look at them. It’s probably worth buying the IndiePass just for that.
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’ve been watching some of the nations, like, I just wrote about the ski areas in China.
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:57.000
Stuart Winchester: And like everything else in China, they’re brand new because they didn’t build ski resorts till, you know, 20 years ago. So so, you know, whereas in Japan, every ski resort has four abandoned chairlifts and, you know, in America, every resort has a 60 year old double chair.
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:43.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right.
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mmhm.
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:13.000
Stuart Winchester: These new resorts are being built brand new with brand new technology. And I think as we see more regions rise to the middle class, as you’re saying, I think we’ll start to see more of these places in these mountain regions that maybe we’re not thinking about right now.
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:20.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s super interesting, the development of skiing. You know, in Europe.
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:36.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: like in the States, I think, you know, the overall audience has matured, you know, to a certain degree. We don’t have as many younger people coming through, and although people are skiing until a later age.
01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:45.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, it’s a mature audience, whereas the growth is coming in Asia, and that is, you know, super interesting.
01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:08:47.000 --> 01:09:02.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, Ian, that was awesome. That’s an awesome orientation to European skiing. I hope it was helpful to the listeners. I am happy to flip it around and do one for your listeners in North America, if that’s ever something you’re interested in.
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, because if you are gonna come over and ski here, you definitely need a pass, or else you’re in for some shock, or unless you got a billion dollars in your bank account, then good for you. Uh, but thanks so much, Ian, I really appreciate it, and I hope you have an awesome winter.
01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:22.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Cool! That’s great, Stuart. Same to you, and, you know, I really enjoy listening to the storm, so keep it going.
01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Thanks so much, Ian. Talk to you soon.
01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:25.000
Iain - The Ski Podcast: Alright, ciao.
01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Ian Martin of the Ski Podcast. All right, that is going to be our show for today. I will get to some listener reaction on tomorrow’s show, which will feature Brian Bench, the founder of Snow Schoolers.
01:09:45.000 --> 01:10:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Disrupting the lesson world. Uh, for more content, you will want to subscribe to the Storm Skiing Newsletter at stormskiing.com. The best way to support the storm is to upgrade to a paid subscription. Uh, but you can start with the free and the emails and, and podcasts will come right to your inbox.
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:15.000
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Stuart Winchester: You can buy those items, stormskiing.myshopify.com. Follow The Storm on YouTube, Instagram, and…
01:10:21.000 --> 01:10:35.000
Stuart Winchester: my wife tells me there’s a TikTok now, she’s running a lot of our social game these days, at Storm Ski Journal on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. Till next time, stay well, stay safe, I am Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.
Stuart Winchester: How is life leading up to ski season, John?
01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:58.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Oh, is what?
01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.000
Stuart Winchester: How is life?
01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:01.000
Jonathan Schaefer: How is life? It’s good.
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what delayed you today?
01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:03.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I’m, uh…
01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, a skunk. So I’m a little tired. I have some Diet Pepsi here to kickstart the day, but my dog got a skunk, uh, first thing, which is great.
01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Good.
01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Let’s go.
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Thank you.
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Massachusetts.
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:19.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And it was better once I opened the door and it all came wafting into the house.
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, God, Berkshire’s living. All right, well, I appreciate you fighting through that and joining us here, John. So, let’s talk smugs, first of all, because.
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:44.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, Bill Stritzler, I have a ton of respect for what he did at Smuggler’s Notch, and how he’s maintained the atmosphere, and it’s consistently voted one of skier… by skiers as one of their favorite mountains, one of the best family mountains. It’s also just a badass expert mountain.
01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the…
01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:48.000
Stuart Winchester: the…
01:15:48.000 --> 01:16:04.000
Stuart Winchester: issue that comes up over and over again is, of course, the chairlifts. There are 7 haul lifts. They are a combined 392 years old. Uh, they are a combined 29,439 feet long. That’s 5.58 miles. Uh, Madonna is the oldest.
01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:21.000
Stuart Winchester: 6,719-foot-long 1963 haul, it got a new top terminal in 2002, which I believe is the drive terminal. Sterling is the next longest, it’s a 1964 haul, and the Village Lift is the next longest at 5,155 feet, that’s 1967, so…
01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:28.000
Stuart Winchester: those are sort of the three main lifts, and then there’s some other little lifts, Madonna 2 and a T-bar and such, but… but John…
01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:39.000
Stuart Winchester: I think everyone wants to know, what are you gonna do about the Lyft fleet at Smug’s, because you have a contingent that loves the old Lyfts and doesn’t want you to, but you have another contingent that’s like…
01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:44.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s why I don’t go there. So what do you have in mind? What can you tell us?
01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:59.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I mean, it’s a problem that’s highlighted by all the fun facts you just gave us here. And give you credit for that, going back to the announcement letter and post that you did.
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:01.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um…
01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It’s the balance between preservation and conservation, right? I mean, it’s an environmental argument, it’s a scary management argument, it’s… do you preserve it, and do you keep it just exactly like it is?
01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Or do you conserve an asset on into the future? And that’s a fancy way of saying that, nice try, you’re not going to quite get the answer today.
01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, we have to have some reality here, right? Which is…
01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:31.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Those lifts are in excellent shape.
01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:40.000
Jonathan Schaefer: maintenance going on through the years and decades will become harder and harder and harder. And we’re gonna have to address the problems.
01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:43.000
Jonathan Schaefer: before they become problems. So.
01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Eyes wide open.
01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We are looking at everything at Smuggler’s Notch, including the lift system.
01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Also, in perfect honesty, there isn’t just.
01:17:55.000 --> 01:18:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: a single plan that’s gonna work there. You know, there’s not.
01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:08.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, there’s not an endless pool of capital to go through and replace. How many? How many lineal feet of lift is that.
01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:10.000
Stuart Winchester: 29,439.
01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, that’s just under six miles of lift line.
01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:18.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, that’s a lot right? And it’s a pretty big, angry mountain.
01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:23.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So when you look at that hillside and you contemplate driving.
01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:25.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Concrete up to the top, or…
01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:29.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, you’re flying helicopters in, and it’s a massive project.
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So, we have to just do…
01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:48.000
Jonathan Schaefer: the right amount of work to keep that mountain, you know, going and thriving into the future. But also, you know, to your point, you know, people love it. You know, people love these mountains. They love them to death sometimes. We don’t want that to happen.
01:18:49.000 --> 01:19:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um, but we respect everybody’s point of view and we’re just gonna have to work with our community to, to sort of telegraph those changes when they come up. And right now there’s, uh, there’s no major changes. You know, I don’t have a.
01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: an SE group plan that I can peel off the desk here and lay it out in front of you and show you exactly what’s going on. I think that we’ve been around long enough that we got an idea, but we’re not quite there yet.
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:27.000
Stuart Winchester: I think the big question for Smugs that I’ve been trying to figure out for a while is, if you want the throwback experience in New England, you just drive an hour down the road to Mount River Glen, and they have a single chair that goes 2,000 vertical feet, and they have great terrain, and they’ve put a lot of money into creating.
01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:38.000
Stuart Winchester: the facade of being a 1940s ski area. But it’s modern, they groom, they make snow below 20-whatever, 100 feet. So, the question, I think, for Smuggler’s Notch is.
01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Is there room for a second throwback ski area in New England, and do you want it to be that? Do you want, for example, to say, no, we’ll never put in a high-speed lift, like smug should have slow lifts even if they’re, even if they’re new, uh, or, you know, the lift.
01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:59.000
Stuart Winchester: The trail footprint should stay. Do you have any thoughts on modernization?
01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, it really gets to capacity, Stuart. And this is, this is, it’s like this, it’s almost like the saber metrics of skiing, right? Like where the numbers, what do they mean? I’m sitting here at Berkshire East and pardon the screwdriver, it’s my pointer.
01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I’ve got two lifts in front of me.
01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: One’s a high speed quad that moves around 600 people per hour, and one’s a sky track quad.
01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: with over twice as many chairs. It does. It’s rated to move up to 2,400 people per hour.
01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Wait, your high-speed quad moves 600 people an hour?
01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:30.000
Jonathan Schaefer: 1600.
01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.
01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:33.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Sorry, I may have misspoke.
01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And we can bump it to 1800.
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:42.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But you know, right out here I got a fixed script that moves more people than a high speed.
01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Now…
01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: up the road from me is another mountain, Berkshire Snowmason. It no longer exists. It was founded by a World War II vet. And he has a great quote from the early 1960s, where he says.
01:20:55.000 --> 01:21:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: People care more about how they go up the mountain than how they look coming down it.
01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:11.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And at the time, he was complaining about a ski lift that went in at Jiminy Peak, where he had T-bars, and he felt that he had been left behind. So there’s a lot of different emotions. There’s, like, the raw numbers.
01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:15.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Fixed scripts are great. They a lot of butts in the air. My dad.
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I think it was talking to Everett Kircher, and that’s what Everett used to tell him. He used to say.
01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:25.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Their butts are in the air, you know, and not on the hill.
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:31.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so you either have people in a line, on a lift, or on a trail.
01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:35.000
Jonathan Schaefer: If you accelerate one of those numbers, they’re gonna show up someplace else. It’s just…
01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:38.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Physics. There’s no way around it.
01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so you gotta look at all that stuff when you do this work. And you know, while I don’t have a solid answer, I do have a commitment to doing our best to.
01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: to getting the right answers for the resort.
01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And for our customer base. And in terms of nostalgia, there’s never going to be a point.
01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:01.000
Jonathan Schaefer: where there’s not a nostalgic lift, you know, in the foreseeable future at Smuggler’s Notch.
01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:08.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But the the question is that lift appropriate for the terrain? Is it the right one? Is the wrong one?
01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But inevitably, I mean, your stats tell all, you know, we’re we’re gonna be doing something at some point.
01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think there’s two good models that I look to of…
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:35.000
Stuart Winchester: really atmospheric ski areas that have upgraded without losing that cachet. One is A-Basin, where the oldest lift, I think, is 2007 Zuma, and they have a combination. They have a high-speed quad, a high-speed six-pack, two long fixed-grip quads, and when they replaced the Pella Vicini.
01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:52.000
Stuart Winchester: double chair, I think in 2020, they just replaced… it was a 1970s lift, they replaced it with a brand new double chair that was made, I think, by Doppelmeyer. Same exact specs, it’s just a new machine. The other example is Alta, which, if you go back to the 90s, had a bunch of double chairs just all over the mountain.
01:22:52.000 --> 01:23:05.000
Stuart Winchester: have consolidated most of those to one line and replaced them, almost all but Wildcat Double, with high-speed chairs. So, looking at those two models and thinking about it, and people still love those ski areas because they’re the ski areas.
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Looking at those two models, do you start to get a sense of, like, is it really that it’s a 1962 Hall double that people care about, or is it more that you create, as you said, a chair that matches the terrain? Do you get any inspiration from those other skiers as you think about this?
01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I mean…
01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:37.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I would say, we’ve all been to a place, whether it’s a restaurant or a ski area, I mean, I love to ski, so I’ve skied all over the world, and you go someplace, and you go back to it, and somebody did something to screw it up, and it pisses you off. I mean, that’s really what.
01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:42.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And we’ve all seen it. We’ve all experienced it.
01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Then we’ve also seen thoughtful design.
01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um…
01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:54.000
Jonathan Schaefer: when we took over the Hermitage Club during COVID and started operating it, there was 27 point-of-sales.
01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.000
Jonathan Schaefer: on the first floor alone.
01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:07.000
Jonathan Schaefer: just to handle food and beverage. Right? And so you start to add it up. And it’s like, Wow, you know, if maybe if they just designed the food and beverage system better.
01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you could have gotten through it with a a lot less point of sale, folks, and.
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: design is really critical, it’s scariest. And… you really have to understand what you’re doing when you make a 30, or 40, or 50, or, in Smug’s case, 60-year investment in a ski lift.
01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:26.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um, because…
01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:34.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You don’t wanna fly that concrete up that mountain more than you have to. You know, you don’t wanna undo it down the road. So.
01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:41.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Again, there’s a lot of factors that go into how to tweak a mountain and what makes sense and what doesn’t.
01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And how not to ruin it. Um…
01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:58.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And, and that’s, it’s a big, it’s a big task, you know, with a lot of responsibility that we definitely, you know, we, we’re not just gonna go in there willy-nilly and start throwing stuff around and start moving things. ‘cause that, that is how you screw it up.
01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
01:24:58.000 --> 01:24:59.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Oh.
01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you think you have a priority, John, between Morse, generally considered the beginner mountain, Sterling, generally considered the intermediate mountain, and Madonna, generally considered the expert mountain, as far as where you think upgrades should be concentrated first, infrastructure-wise? And we can also talk about snowmaking here, which I know you’ve already announced.
01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:28.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It sort of matches the, the available equipment to the mountain, I would say. You know, there’s, there’s certain, there’s certain things we, we gotta figure that out. That’s, that’s, that’s what the next six months of my life will be focused on.
01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:33.000
Stuart Winchester: So talk about the snowmaking upgrades that you’ve already announced at Smugs, and what you hope to achieve there.
01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So this some going into the sale. We had a pretty good understanding of of some of the broad strokes work that needs to get done, and snowmaking is always a huge.
01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: a huge factor for us.
01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:01.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And how we approach resorts, you know, it’s literally, you go up the mountain, and you come down the mountain. And ideally, you come down on as many different trails as possible, and with as good of conditions as possible, and that’s the snow aspect.
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:07.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so, we always start there, you know that. Uh, smugglers, each mountain always has different, sort of.
01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Assets, you know, it’s like…
01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:16.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You buy a house, it’s got a great kitchen, you don’t like the bathroom, right? And then vice versa.
01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:23.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Smugs… so we laid out what we thought needed to happen at Smugs, then you sort of do the low-hanging…
01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:35.000
Jonathan Schaefer: medium hanging, high hanging fruit, you know, to achieve the goals. And where, and we wanted to spend money where you would, the skiers would see the first, every dollar yielded the greatest results.
01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:38.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so we focused a lot this year on.
01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:52.000
Jonathan Schaefer: fixing broken things and and dilapidated equipment, putting in fixed infrastructure on the hill. So the snowmakers themselves don’t have to lug things around the less lugging they do on.
01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:56.000
Jonathan Schaefer: big, difficult mountains in the northeast, the more snow they tend to make.
01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And then really incorporating, uh, the snowmaker’s experience into the upgrades, so that they felt that they were part, you know, of defining what that list was gonna be. And so, it’s Smuggler’s Notch, right? So there’s 3 mountains, so it’s…
01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:26.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It’s everything times 3. You know, there’s broken thing. There’s the fixed equipment that needs to be put on the hill. So we attacked each one of the the areas of the the resort, and tried to address bottlenecks or issues that could unlock a lot of.
01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:36.000
Jonathan Schaefer: potential out of the system. And it’s sort of the first salvo. You know, you… scary operations, you know, the way you fix mountains, it’s like waves on a beach. You get…
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You get a capital plan in January, you start to execute, if you’re lucky, by April.
01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:49.000
Jonathan Schaefer: The wave falls on the beach and then your next thing you know, it’s November and you’re back into operating and you gotta do it again. And there’s this cycle.
01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:57.000
Jonathan Schaefer: This is what we could get done this… this year on a short, you know, transaction window, and then love plans for next year’s, too, and…
01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Those will probably have more meaningful impact.
01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, where are you at, John, on… you know, one thing I liked about when Eric Mogensen bought Black Mountain in New Hampshire is the… it’s such a fun mountain, but the top was rarely open. They have a double chair that goes to the summit, but it has a mid-station, and for years and years, sometimes the summit wouldn’t even open, and he made a commitment right away, hey.
01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:26.000
Stuart Winchester: run the lift to the top as much as possible, and he has, including all the way into May the last two years. How much have you thought about.
01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Getting Madonna open a little earlier in the season and, and consistently making sure that peak is open, uh, as late as possible because that’s sort of, I mean, Sterling’s a lot of fun, but, but Madonna is the alpha peak, right? That’s the, the biggest lift, the biggest vert, the toughest terrain. That’s what people think.
01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:48.000
Stuart Winchester: when they think of the challenging terrain as smug. So have you thought much about Madonna and its operating schedule?
01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:53.000
Jonathan Schaefer: The bottlenecks aren’t really Madonna. It’s everything that leads to Madonna.
01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And that’s what we went to fix.
01:28:55.000 --> 01:29:03.000
Jonathan Schaefer: with the snowmaking system. So if you can chew through everything else, like, you gotta get beginner terrain open, you have to get…
01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: something for your your pass holders as fast as possible, and if that fast thing becomes faster.
01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:15.000
Jonathan Schaefer: or those bottlenecks disappear, then we’re we’re hitting Madonna.
01:29:15.000 --> 01:29:20.000
Jonathan Schaefer: earlier. So it it has a cascading effect throughout the whole system.
01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:36.000
Stuart Winchester: So speaking of pass holders, let’s talk about passes. So since I was just talking about Eric and Black Mountain, let’s talk about Indy Pass. So you were an early adopter of Indy Pass, going back to 2019, put Berkshire East on it, catamount right away. As soon as you bought.
01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:32.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Burke, or were involved in Burke, it switched over from an allied mountain to full, and you just added Smugs, which is huge for IndyPass holders. You now have Jay and Smugs. I mean, four days of those alone is worth the price of an IndyPass, let alone the other dozens of mountains you have there. So talk about.
01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Correct?
01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:06.000
Stuart Winchester: your relationship with IndyPass, and ultimately why you recommitted… because they’re one-year contracts, right? So why you recommitted by adding all four of your mountains, including Smugs, which you haven’t had a winter to run yet, onto Indy?
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:16.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Indy’s a really important piece for, you know, independent skiers in the country. And we, I used to have debates with different people pre Indy Pass.
01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And one of the debates was, and I won’t name them, was around.
01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Could there ever be a pass that represented those types of mountains?
01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:34.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Because, let’s just be… let’s face it, you have the Epic Pass, which has Vail and Whistler, and…
01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:42.000
Jonathan Schaefer: when Doug branded the IndyPass, he gave a voice to a whole, you know, quite frankly, the majority of the ski world.
01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Which was feeling a little left out at the time.
01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:51.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so it’s done a lot for small ski areas across the country.
01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:59.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But it’s certainly done a lot for ours at Berkshire East and Catamount. So we’re, what, 5 or 6 years in at having Indy at those resorts?
01:30:58.000 --> 01:30:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:01.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We’ve certainly been.
01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:18.000
Jonathan Schaefer: sort of like Indy Pied Pipers along the way. It, it wasn’t necessarily a layup that we were gonna do it at Smuggler’s Notch. You know, it seemed obvious maybe from the outside and we’d have to get there. But our commitment really is, is to the full pass holders and the ticket holders of a resort.
01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:36.000
Jonathan Schaefer: First, you know, they’re, they’re sort of our primary constituents and what India Smugs allows us to do is we, we are very experienced with using the capacity controls in any pass at our other mountains. So we, a reservation system at Berkshire East and Catamount.
01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:48.000
Jonathan Schaefer: that allows, you know, for only certain number of capacity per day. And we’re pretty experienced on managing, you know, weekly, or monthly, or daily, even, on how we want to handle that.
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:56.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So we felt comfortable with not overwhelming the mountain. And what happens is, I think one of my critiques of the ski business is it’s like…
01:31:56.000 --> 01:32:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, with the multi passes, you have this slosh of people, you know, you fill a bucket full of water. It’s like you got a Home Depot bucket and you’re walking down the street with a bucket and it inevitably spills out and gets you wet.
01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And to me, that slosh is what happens when you have.
01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: unlimited access everywhere. Right? So if Berkshire East, for example.
01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: was…
01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:29.000
Jonathan Schaefer: was in a huge pass product, and we happened to get 3 feet of snow, which happens occasionally.
01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:37.000
Jonathan Schaefer: and 50,000 people show up at Berkshire East, that slosh would break the town, it would break the mountain, it would break everything, right?
01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:32:37.000 --> 01:32:52.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And we don’t wanna have that. We actually do care about the experience at these mountains. That being said, it’s important to fill up the excess capacity so we can do the snowmaking upgrades and we can do the resort upgrades that at Smuggler’s Notch or the any of the other mountains that you will see the snowmaking.
01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:57.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you will see the improvements. And so we have to optimize.
01:32:57.000 --> 01:33:02.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, around the midweek and the non busiest times.
01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:08.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And then, once once that stuff starts to happen, the snowmaking improvements.
01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: More people start to show up in off-peak times. You feel that energy?
01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:17.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And then you got something to work with. And so.
01:33:15.000 --> 01:33:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:20.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I think that’s where we’re headed with that relationship, and, you know…
01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Uh…
01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:35.000
Jonathan Schaefer: it’s also why we didn’t do the Four Mountain Pass right out of the gate. You know, I think a lot of people wondered, well, will there just be a Bearden Pass? And Bearden, you know, our core mantra is distinctly local. Like, we love.
01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:41.000
Jonathan Schaefer: these mountains. We love the people that make them up and the history and the legacy of those resorts.
01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:51.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And we care about, you know, doing our best to be caretakers, you know, so that the mountain we buy is still recognizable by the people.
01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: who utilize it, you know, 10 or 15 years from now when they come back to it.
01:33:55.000 --> 01:33:59.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so not overwhelming.
01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:05.000
Jonathan Schaefer: not having overwhelming numbers is a it’s a real. I mean, it’s probably the thing I’ve thought about most this year.
01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a couple different levels of competition here. You have the other big multi-mountain passes, you have your four mountains and your different pass products, and you’re kind of competing with yourself a little by being part of India. Now we’re seeing.
01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Other competing passes, the Snow Pass, run by Snow Operating, start to follow that model of two days at each mountain, and they got some really nice ones out of the gate, Whiteface and Gore. Do you think that Indy Pass will remain important long.
01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:52.000
Stuart Winchester: term to you as you… as you build up, you know, you have four mountains to work with, that’s a pretty attractive little portfolio, especially the way they run north-south, with Catamount being two hours from New York City, and Smuggs being this great destination, and everything in between, and all easy to get to off the freeway. So… so what…
01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:57.000
Stuart Winchester: long… as you think about passes long-term, do you think you’ll stay on a multi-mountain pass? Do you think.
01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:59.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, uh…
01:34:59.000 --> 01:35:05.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We’re we’re into hypothetical worlds. We’re we’re into indie. We like indie. So.
01:35:01.000 --> 01:35:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:35:03.000 --> 01:35:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:08.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Why don’t you tell me where you think the market’s going and we’ll.
01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yes, sir.
01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:27.000
Stuart Winchester: I’m liking the competition. I’m liking that there’s a lot of different options for consumers right now. I think the Indy Pass is, it’s the largest pass coalition ever assembled in the history of the world that I’m aware of. And I just think for consumers, particularly in New England to have.
01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:17.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.
01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Those mountains, Smuggs, Jay, Waterville. And Berkshire East is such a great mountain, too, and it’s almost always a top 10 on Indy Redemptions, which surprised me. So, I love where you’re going. I also love the Bash Badge. Can you talk about the Bash Badge at Smuggs? Because you actually have the Bash Badge Plus, which maybe they had before, I don’t know if that’s new. And if that concept could roll out across your other mountains, and I know you’re not…
01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:35.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, Mr. Price Guy, so I can throw the prices up here. Um, the…
01:35:58.000 --> 01:36:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Well, the bash pads fits between a day ticket and a full pass, you know, just sort of.
01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:15.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Functionally and emotionally. And it’s an important piece of the product, and we’ve… we have evaluated it across the board. There was a… it’s… it was funny, you know, it’s funny not funny. We hadn’t communicated it yet, but um…
01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:36:16.000 --> 01:36:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: A lot, there was so much concern out of the sort of the smug social media.
01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:32.000
Jonathan Schaefer: around their prob… quote-unquote, they are probably going to get rid of the bash badge. I’m they. They were never going to get rid of the bash badge. It’s an important part of the puzzle, and uh…
01:36:26.000 --> 01:36:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:36:29.000 --> 01:36:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:36:33.000 --> 01:36:36.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, it speaks to…
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:39.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know what you’re saying about the industry.
01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:41.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Indy’s an important funnel.
01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:51.000
Jonathan Schaefer: for visitation for us. You know, Bash Badge is an important funnel. People get so… you get so locked into your routine, right? Even your social media routine, or your…
01:36:48.000 --> 01:36:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:57.000
Jonathan Schaefer: web presence routine. So you’re only exposed to what you’re exposed to. And.
01:36:57.000 --> 01:37:13.000
Jonathan Schaefer: the reality is, it’s tough business, you know. The winters are tough. There’s a the ex. The equipment’s extremely expensive, and we have 13 weeks to really get after it each year. Yeah, we need to be as in front of as many people as possible, so they can come up and.
01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:18.000
Jonathan Schaefer: rent from our homeowners and buy food in the kitchens and.
01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Ski awesome terrain. So that’s…
01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Let me break down this product real quick because I think it’s so good. So the Bash Badge, you pay $159 upfront and then you get $30 lift tickets or $20 half-day lift tickets for the entire season whenever you show up. The Bash Badge, Bash Badge.
01:37:37.000 --> 01:37:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Plus is $249, has the same deal, but it’s sort of a pseudo-season pass, because you get…
01:37:44.000 --> 01:38:04.000
Stuart Winchester: direct-to-lift, you know, unlimited days from opening day, which is usually around Thanksgiving, through December 18th, and then from March 22nd through the end of the season, which at Smuggs is somewhere between the first and third weekend in April, usually. I don’t know if you want to push that at all. But that is an awesome product. I mean, is this something that you want to roll out across the portfolio?
01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We’re evaluating it. Yeah. All the mountains are different, right? So that’s…
01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:15.000
Jonathan Schaefer: which may work, something that may work great, and I’m not, this is more generic.
01:38:15.000 --> 01:38:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: at Burke may not work at Catamount. You just pulled up Catamount there, right? That’s a different user base.
01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Different demand profile. Right? So.
01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:28.000
Jonathan Schaefer: These mountains are going to run.
01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:42.000
Jonathan Schaefer: relatively independently, but also, we want our guests to know what to expect when they go to a Bear Dam Mountain, which is that independence, the quality, the focus on the fundamentals, you know, good snow, um…
01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:38:40.000 --> 01:38:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: and efficient operations. I mean, it’s… the weather’s ever-changing, so you can’t always promise it, but…
01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:51.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, you’ll certainly get our best effort in any given time.
01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:55.000
Stuart Winchester: How would you know, John, like, what would be your sign?
01:38:55.000 --> 01:38:58.000
Stuart Winchester: that you were messing up SMUGS, that you were going in the wrong direction.
01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I’m sure I’d hear about it.
01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:10.000
Stuart Winchester: As a… as a skier, what do you not want smugs to be? Because you’re a skier, I mean, you… you know, you’ve skied every day of your life that…
01:39:10.000 --> 01:39:13.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, has been… there’s been snow on the ground, I believe.
01:39:13.000 --> 01:39:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:39:14.000 --> 01:39:16.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I, um…
01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: For me, it’s that overwhelming presence of just, you know, you’re on a trail and.
01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You feel like you’re gonna get.
01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:30.000
Jonathan Schaefer: just overrun, and you’re just… you want to go home. I mean, I’ve had ski days where.
01:39:30.000 --> 01:39:32.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um…
01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:34.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, for example.
01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:38.000
Jonathan Schaefer: My wife and I did a trip to a.
01:39:38.000 --> 01:39:40.000
Jonathan Schaefer: a larger, you know.
01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:52.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Northern Mountain a couple years ago, and I was invited to an event, and I couldn’t get the person who, you know, I get comp tickets, it’s just one of the perks, who was there to comp the ticket, and…
01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:39:52.000 --> 01:40:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So it’s like, oh, I’ll go through the ticket line and really experience a day trip, you know, as the general consumer of one of these resorts, you know, which, you know, I’m generally at smaller mountains doing our thing.
01:40:03.000 --> 01:40:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:05.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And…
01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I think almost 500 bucks of ticket fees later.
01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow.
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, we’re in the middle of an overrun.
01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:16.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Trail.
01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: My wife, who’s an advanced intermediate, was just like, can we go home to Berkshire East?
01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, so.
01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:33.000
Jonathan Schaefer: if I feel like I want to go home right now, as much feels like home to me. I had a lot of great skiing there this winter. I brought my daughters up, and.
01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:37.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there’s awesome terrain. We’re looking at the map here.
01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: it feels like a western mountain. I mean, it it’s big enough that the whoever cut the trails, there’s there’s grade reversals to uphills to big rolls to.
01:40:39.000 --> 01:40:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:52.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, snow-covered trees, and I know it’s not always like that, but we just had the best.
01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:54.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Few weeks of skiing this year.
01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:59.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And you can really let it rip. Woods are awesome.
01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Great family experience. That’s what home feels like. And.
01:41:04.000 --> 01:41:11.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I’m I associate with myself, you know, in in general, with people that appreciate that. And.
01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:41:11.000 --> 01:41:17.000
Jonathan Schaefer: That’s we’re here to curate this and to grow it, but not ruin it.
01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And that’s very subjective, right? So we have to run good businesses, and we’re never gonna make everybody happy. But I think in the effort we give.
01:41:27.000 --> 01:41:29.000
Jonathan Schaefer: People will appreciate it.
01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:31.000
Stuart Winchester: The more…
01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:35.000
Stuart Winchester: skiing changes in New England, the more…
01:41:35.000 --> 01:41:46.000
Stuart Winchester: people love what Smuggs is, and I’m looking at the trail map here for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, and what you see back here is Stowe. Now, I love Stowe. I think it’s the best mountain.
01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, me too.
01:41:46.000 --> 01:42:04.000
Stuart Winchester: in New England. I just love the fall lines, I love the skiing. Vail purchased it, of course, in 2017. Bill Strissel, the former owner, had proposed a gondola from Sterling across, which is much flatter than this, across to Stowe.
01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Is that idea dead? Is that still something you would consider? You can still walk between Stowe and Smugs, of course, but is a potential lift something you’re considering?
01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:25.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, you know, I think we’re considering getting back to where we were, which is… I think it would be awesome to skin up Sterling, but they don’t allow it, and um…
01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:28.000
Jonathan Schaefer: come over to smugs and go back and forth.
01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:39.000
Jonathan Schaefer: we’re not in the market for paying for that lift, and I read the reviews online, just as well as everybody else, on what locals thought about it, so… that’s not the…
01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:43.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, I want to develop a great great relationship with those guys and the Gm. There.
01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:52.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Started at Mount Snow, and we have a ton of mutual friends. And he’s very, very, very well respected, you know, within the Vail organization.
01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:54.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so is awesome.
01:42:54.000 --> 01:42:56.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But, um…
01:42:56.000 --> 01:43:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I think that I have trail run it all summer and fall, and it’s a it’s a great trail. I was there, and I think it was 1997. Somebody dumped a snow cat into the pond trying to drive across it. I saw the snow cat as a 17 year old or 18 year old.
01:42:57.000 --> 01:43:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Mike’s a good dude.
01:43:01.000 --> 01:43:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, man.
01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, um…
01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah.
01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Is it still there?
01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:20.000
Jonathan Schaefer: No, some other… I think they got out with a scooter.
01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:21.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um…
01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I mean, Mike’s a great guy, and I skied with Mike in April, and folks don’t understand this, and I beat it to death, but unless you’re from the region, and I didn’t understand it until I moved out here, Northern Vermont is so good. I mean, 322 inches of snow, that’s the second snowiest.
01:43:39.000 --> 01:44:02.000
Stuart Winchester: In the east that Smuggs gets, of course, JP gets a little more, and maybe they get the same. I don’t know, people measure things different, but last year I was supposed to take my family to Tahoe in April. I canceled it, went to Stowe and Killington instead, and we got a couple of powder days of Stowe in April. It is really, really good skiing up there, and there’s tree skiing more often than not. So, I mean, you’ve got such a prize up there, and if people have not been up there.
01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, go now so you can watch the evolution. Uh, John, I wanna…
01:44:06.000 --> 01:44:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I’m gonna try to text you a picture here, Stuart. I’ve got me pounding the Lincoln Gap and I think 2003.
01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:18.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But I I grew up skiing up there.
01:44:18.000 --> 01:44:22.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And the scheme is awesome.
01:44:22.000 --> 01:44:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: The, um…
01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:33.000
Jonathan Schaefer: There’s there’s nothing like it. And it’s it’s it’s not. You know it. It is Northern Vermont, right? It’s not.
01:44:31.000 --> 01:44:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:34.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Banff.
01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:40.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And it’s okay. There’s great communities. There’s great.
01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:48.000
Jonathan Schaefer: There’s great people. There’s a huge legacy of people that love these mountains and care for them. And utilize them.
01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So.
01:44:50.000 --> 01:44:56.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We’re just lucky to be the next man up here, and we’re fired up to do a good job about it.
01:44:55.000 --> 01:45:19.000
Stuart Winchester: I’m fired up that you bought it. There was a lot of chatter that Vail may buy it and combine it with Stowe. Again, love Stowe, but I do think that the Northeast in any ski region benefits from having strong independent operators. I’m pulling up Burke’s old trail maps for those following along here. So Burke, the trail network’s been similar for years and years, but there used to be some more lifts. So here we’re going all the way back.
01:45:19.000 --> 01:45:27.000
Stuart Winchester: 1983, when Burke was sponsored by Camel. Can you imagine? Camel cigarettes, guys.
01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:28.000
Jonathan Schaefer: One of our ski coaches was a, um…
01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:30.000
Jonathan Schaefer: A Marlboro man.
01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you see different lifts here. So you see the Summit lift, which was replaced. Now this is a high-speed quad. And there was another lift over here. So looking at Burke’s modern trail map here, John, I believe there’s some room for expansion out here. I believe you could probably infill some lifts. So what are your thoughts on Burke now that you’ve had a year running that guy?
01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I think Burke’s an awesome mountain.
01:45:55.000 --> 01:46:02.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, if we’re talking about the trail map, we’ve got the green section down here in Sherbourne, which is one of the best beginner mountains.
01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And that was a little bit of a.
01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Surprise for me, because I spent most of my time at Burke on Warren’s way.
01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:46:10.000 --> 01:46:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: facing, and then…
01:46:12.000 --> 01:46:18.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Big Dipper. I think we raised the first Eastern Cup there the day after the Pats won their first Super Bowl.
01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:20.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.
01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:25.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Which was awesome. Middlebury showed up with no time to inspect, because it was a late night, but it was…
01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:28.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Lots of energy, um…
01:46:28.000 --> 01:46:39.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And then the Upper Mountain, and you can kind of see, if you go back up to the Upper Mountain, just how steep… you see where all the black diamonds are in the middle, in the double blacks? That’s just a feature of the resort, so…
01:46:32.000 --> 01:46:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:41.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It’s hard to get…
01:46:41.000 --> 01:46:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there’s a total lack of green trails from the summit, and that’s a priority for us, is increasing that blue access over the next couple of years.
01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:55.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But also, you know, we’ve done a ton of snowmaking that work there. I think we…
01:46:56.000 --> 01:47:02.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We knocked out… we were able to cut 500 hours of snowmaking time.
01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Year over year.
01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow.
01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: and open more terrain, far more terrain than the year prior. And so.
01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Amazing.
01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:13.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We, uh…
01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:29.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We are doing a lot more work this year. And so last year, it’s like the wave on the beach analogy. We were able to throw a big wave up on the beach and we got a ton of stuff done. But this year, it’s a lot of the interconnections and sort of like finishing off the work. I’d say we got 80% of the way home last year.
01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:47:23.000 --> 01:47:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:39.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And this year, a few more guns, filling in some holes, moving water around more effectively.
01:47:37.000 --> 01:47:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I think people are going to notice maybe even as big a difference as the year prior. Midburg Lodge is getting some updates.
01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:49.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, it…
01:47:48.000 --> 01:48:15.000
Stuart Winchester: How did that translate business-wise, John? You know, Burke had sort of been, it had been in receivership for nine years when you purchased it, and it was part of the whole Jay Peak scandal, and Jay Peak got purchased in 2022 by Pacific Group Resorts, but Burke was still orphaned, and not that there weren’t capable folks running it, but the first thing you did was, I think, triple snowmaking capacity. So how did that translate business, skier visits-wise? What can you tell us about last year at Burke and the kind of momentum you were able to establish there?
01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:56.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So I do believe that energy at a resort is a very palpable thing. You can either feel it, or you can’t. You know, you’ve all been places, and it’s like, oh, what happened to the restaurant? And it’s like, oh, the chef left, and.
01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:31.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You just know it’s over yet.
01:48:31.000 --> 01:48:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know the receivership was. It was sort of like slack tide for that mountain for almost a decade, you know, is not really coming or going, and I think our us stepping up and the grand family’s commitment to the resort, which is runs really deep.
01:48:48.000 --> 01:48:54.000
Jonathan Schaefer: was able to bring some of that, inject that energy. And then the next step.
01:48:54.000 --> 01:49:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: is, and I’ve been doing the Ted Lasso analogies with you for years, but it’s like getting people, not only the resort staff, but the guests to believe.
01:49:04.000 --> 01:49:15.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, that it is a great mountain. There’s phenomenal glades. You know, I… I was stuck on Warren’s Way half my life whenever I’d be there, but, you know, so it was a revelation what the glades were like. Um…
01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: in the… in the acquisition period, and then skiing them last year. It’s a… it’s a great mountain. I don’t think it’s ever really had its chance. I think we’re the seventh or eighth ownership group. That thing is like a…
01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:41.000
Jonathan Schaefer: a ship without a rock, without a lighthouse that ships keep running into, and we’re gonna try to avoid being the next ship that breaks apart on those rocks right there. But I think there’s a really thoughtful way to do it.
01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:54.000
Jonathan Schaefer: quite frankly, it’s shocking how close it is to people. You know, I don’t think people realize that it’s really not that much further from Boston than a Mount Snow or a Killington. Obviously, it doesn’t have the scale of those resorts. Um…
01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:57.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But it does have that sense of community.
01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: it’s a great mountain, it’s a beautiful hotel, and… and the town itself is full of wonderful restaurants, largely supported by Kingdom Trails and skiers, you know, so it’s a very adventurous… we did a kickoff party there, and…
01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:11.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, there’s…
01:50:11.000 --> 01:50:13.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Eight Olympians.
01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:18.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, at the kickoff party that live in and around that town.
01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Incredible.
01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:31.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And it attracts a really diverse set of outdoor adventurers, and it’s a… it’s a throwback community. And uh… I think as our guests start to discover it, you know, in the wintertime, I think a lot of people discovered it for KT.
01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:33.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Which we’re also doing a lot of work.
01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:40.000
Jonathan Schaefer: With to integrate with Kingdom trails, and we’re the largest single owner of Kingdom trails, and so it’s.
01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:44.000
Jonathan Schaefer: you know, people start to feel that energy. And.
01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Again, we’re here to work it and to build it and, you know, do our best to caretake it.
01:50:50.000 --> 01:51:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks far north, John, but it’s right off I-91, and I agree, there’s some of the best glades in New England. Let’s talk quickly about Berkshire East, where you’ve teased an expansion for several years, I believe, right over in this area.
01:51:02.000 --> 01:51:05.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We’re going on a decade, I think.
01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Is it right over here? Am I pointing to the right place? Farlookers right on the trail map?
01:51:05.000 --> 01:51:06.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:13.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um, it goes from the wind turbine.
01:51:12.000 --> 01:51:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:17.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Where the thunder writing is, somewhere right in there.
01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:51:16.000 --> 01:51:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.
01:51:17.000 --> 01:51:26.000
Jonathan Schaefer: in between Mohawk and Thunder down over towards those fields at the lower left. I would say it’s not well represented on on this map. But.
01:51:25.000 --> 01:51:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, so there’s more terrain. Is it basically in here, or is it over on this side?
01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:35.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It’s thunder is sort of like the off ramp for it. So it’s the return.
01:51:34.000 --> 01:51:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, so you would go into Thunder off the back of the mountain?
01:51:37.000 --> 01:51:42.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You would go off of… you see where Rogers World is? The lift would go through Rogers World.
01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Here.
01:51:41.000 --> 01:51:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:43.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um…
01:51:44.000 --> 01:51:49.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Through to the wind turbine, and there’d be 3 or 4 trails back there, and…
01:51:46.000 --> 01:51:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:52.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It hasn’t quite launched yet.
01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Thank you.
01:51:52.000 --> 01:52:04.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But again, you know, it’s easy to cut this stuff, it’s easy to build it, it’s harder to actually operate it and take care of it, so we keep optimizing our resort, you know, and the snowmaking there, and then…
01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:08.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Hopefully, we’ll get to a point here where that’s doable again. So.
01:52:08.000 --> 01:52:23.000
Stuart Winchester: And you took out a triple chair that was based this summer right here. That was a used lift from Ski Rio New Mexico. I think the plan was to put it over here. I don’t know, it looks like you could probably serve it with the existing lifts, but any thoughts on lifts or not as part of the expansion?
01:52:13.000 --> 01:52:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:26.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It would require a lift, yeah.
01:52:25.000 --> 01:52:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.
01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So.
01:52:27.000 --> 01:52:45.000
Stuart Winchester: But not… it doesn’t sound like, uh, like you can put a timeline on it, and last time you were on, you also talked about a potential expansion at Catamount. Again, I’m looking at the trail map. Uh, if you look at the far right side of the trail map, I believe that’s where the potential expansion was. Any thoughts on… on that, or are you pretty happy with Catamount as it is?
01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:32.000
Jonathan Schaefer: No.
01:52:45.000 --> 01:52:47.000
Jonathan Schaefer: We are, uh…
01:52:48.000 --> 01:53:03.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I would say that we’re never complacent, right? So the idea of happy is very temporal and focused on what’s going on. I think at all these mountains, we’re focused on snowmaking. Folks will see some snowmaking upgrades at all the resorts.
01:52:54.000 --> 01:52:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:06.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So in terms of lift layouts, you know it’s.
01:53:06.000 --> 01:53:15.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Those are private landowners that you happen to point out up there, so they may or may not be the right, you know, people to point your mouse at.
01:53:10.000 --> 01:53:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:24.000
Jonathan Schaefer: it’s all on the table, right? And it’s just a matter. Now my job is to really, you know, look at four resorts and what their needs are.
01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:53:24.000 --> 01:53:27.000
Jonathan Schaefer: and advance the ones that make the most sense.
01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:39.000
Jonathan Schaefer: from resort to resort to resort, and categorize those. And a lot of what we’ve been doing this year, I mean, this conversation has been very appropriately anchored in, um, sort of asset upgrades.
01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:45.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But I’m trying to build an organization that can really thoughtfully run this.
01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:50.000
Jonathan Schaefer: these resorts and do a good job with it and build the right team.
01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:57.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And so a lot of the governance and organizational work that we’ve done this year will really help support those.
01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: going forward into future years. So.
01:53:58.000 --> 01:54:16.000
Stuart Winchester: So talk a little about that. Actually leave us with that today, John, because I just find the Schaefer family story so compelling. You know, Roy drove his station wagon out from Michigan full of kids and just, you know, bought this junky mountain and fixed it up, you know, just out there buying scrap from all over the country.
01:54:09.000 --> 01:54:10.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.
01:54:16.000 --> 01:54:23.000
Stuart Winchester: And, uh, then handed it off to you and your brother, who modernized it. And, and you’ve, you’ve built, uh…
01:54:23.000 --> 01:54:30.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, you’ve built now this four-mountain portfolio, so a couple elements to that is, number one, if I have this right.
01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:43.000
Stuart Winchester: you actually sold Catamount Berkshires to Bearden, so you’re no longer the owner, you’re an employee, probably for the first time, really, in your life, you know, and not part of a… necessarily a family-owned thing.
01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:39.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Mm-hmm.
01:54:41.000 --> 01:54:44.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Outside is an ice cream.
01:54:43.000 --> 01:54:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so what’s that transition been like, I guess?
01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:56.000
Stuart Winchester: emotionally, and how do you handle that professionally? Like, going from, you know, your dad out there with a hammer, you know.
01:54:56.000 --> 01:55:05.000
Stuart Winchester: nailing up some snow gun to, uh, I know that’s not how you put up a snow gun, but, um, but to, you know, running a professional organization that oversees four mountains in three states.
01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.
01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:26.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Evolve or die, right? So I couldn’t be more fired up about it. There’s Ken Graham and I had the opportunity to build five years of trust. We worked on Burke for four or five years. And that could be, you know, five calls a week or one call every five months. You know, it’s hard to say, but we really stuck it out together.
01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:43.000
Jonathan Schaefer: and had a good understanding of of who we were as people and as families. You know their their dad’s a Michigan family, too. They are a Michigan family. The grandfather was a ecologist working for the University of Michigan. So it’s a lot of shared family history here. Ski racing.
01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:58.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And that’s important when you do this stuff because these, you’re in it for the long haul. You know, you jump into rapids with somebody and you want to know what they’re about. And so we had that opportunity and it wasn’t as spontaneous as it may have seen on the outside.
01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:00.000
Jonathan Schaefer: So…
01:56:00.000 --> 01:56:05.000
Jonathan Schaefer: There’s there’s also pieces of the organization that I always wanted to bring.
01:56:05.000 --> 01:56:11.000
Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I wrote my Berkshire operator manual in 2015, and it was clunky, and…
01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:12.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Um…
01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: And and probably just.
01:56:15.000 --> 01:56:17.000
Jonathan Schaefer: half finished, right?
01:56:17.000 --> 01:56:29.000
Jonathan Schaefer: But a lot of the elements that we’re bringing to the table around role clarity, how to do jobs, you know, those threads started there. And I always wanted to build something bigger.
01:56:29.000 --> 01:56:32.000
Jonathan Schaefer: than what we had. And that’s why I always sort of like, you know, I’ve been.
01:56:32.000 --> 01:56:43.000
Jonathan Schaefer: doing these crazy side gigs for years, right? Like the Hermitage Club, or rebuilding Bosque, or Big Red Cats, or working in Arkansas building bike parks. It’s never been…
01:56:43.000 --> 01:56:46.000
Jonathan Schaefer: It’s always been like, okay. Well.
01:56:46.000 --> 01:56:51.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I can’t spin my wheels endlessly at Berkshire East or Catamount.
01:56:52.000 --> 01:56:58.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Let the people responsible do their jobs and go do something else for a little while.
01:56:58.000 --> 01:57:08.000
Jonathan Schaefer: try to keep building. So that’s now I feel like we’ve married our family’s legacy and the information we’ve learned.
01:57:08.000 --> 01:57:14.000
Jonathan Schaefer: to a platform and another family that that will help us, you know, fulfill this vision.
01:57:15.000 --> 01:57:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Doing all that, John, and you still made time for the podcast, you know, one of the… one of my hopes out of the shorter form is we can have you on a little more often as you announce new things, so… listen, I cannot thank you enough for making the time, especially with the wildlife emergency, with all you’ve got going on in winter coming up, so… so thanks so much, John, I really appreciate it.
01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:20.000
Jonathan Schaefer: I love it.
01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:25.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Sure.
01:57:28.000 --> 01:57:30.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah.
01:57:31.000 --> 01:57:34.000
Jonathan Schaefer: Well, you’re lucky you’re not with me, because otherwise you’d stink.
01:57:34.000 --> 01:57:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, I don’t have a sense of smell, that’s one of my secret weapons. Yeah, yeah, so, uh, anyway, alright, thanks a lot, John, I’ll talk to you soon.
