Join Dr Rad and Dr G as we discuss, spar, and laugh our way through different aspects of the ancient Roman world! Our main series 'From the Foundation of the City' follows Roman history year by year from the traditional foundation date of 753 BCE. We also interview academics and specialists from around the globe for their insights into history and the representation of Rome and the ancient Mediterranean in popular culture. Dr Fiona Radford is an expert on Rome on film and wrote her thesis on Kubrick’s Spartacus. Dr Radford is exponent of not only Ancient History, but also Reception Studies. Dr Peta Greenfield is an expert on the Vestal Virgins. Dr Greenfield’s research interests include: religion and politics in Rome, the late republic and Augustan period, and the role of women.
Cleopatra was released in 1963 and has gone on to herald the end of the golden age of the historical epic in Hollywood. Known as one of the most expensive films to ever be made, its troubled production and the on screen connection between Taylor and Burton have both cemented its place in cinematic history.
A Troubled Production
We have a look at some of the issues that led to production delays and there were a lot! From tricky weather conditions, Taylor’s health troubles, to issues with the script, there wasn’t an issue that this film didn’t face in the journey to release. Dr Rad delves into the details of the factors that influenced the production including:
the monetary problems
the challenges into Twentieth Century Fox in this period
the increasing pressure to write and shoot for Mankiewicz
and Taylor’s public aura in the early 1960s
A Foray into Roman and Egyptian History
The historical pedigree of Cleopatra is based on a few different sources including credit given to Plutarch, Appian, and Suetonius! The impetus for the film was also based on the book published in 1957, The Life and Times of Cleopatra by Carlo Maria Franzero. There’s a depth of references throughout the film that have support in the ancient sources. Dr G considers:
the representation of Ptolemy and his advisors
The divided representation of Cleopatra as a savvy politician and a seductress
The burning of the library of Alexandria
The history of where Alexander the Great’s body ends up after death
Things to listen out for
The life and significance of Caesarion
The importance of Mankiewicz in bringing this project to life
Shifting to French hours
What’s up with Mithridates?
Caesar’s winding journey through the Mediterranean
We’re still in the year 394 BCE and we’ve seen Camillus has had a run in with the Falsican Schoolmaster. In this episode we move on further into the action of 394 BCE and look at 393 BCE as well. Is Camillus learning how to keep a low profile? He is praised from his success over the Faliscans and he doesn’t rush for a triumph this time. But the challenge remains, that Camillus’ forgotten vow to Apollo might be about to bite him on the bottom.
A fateful voyage!
Rome is pretty intent on fulfilling Camillus’ forgotten vow to Apollo and this means a boat trip is in order. But sailing to Greece is not for the faint hearted, especially when you have such precious cargo as a golden bowl in tow. Tune in for adventures on the high sea!
War with the Aequians
The Aequians, a thorn in Rome’s side? Yes indeed. Do our sources agree? Of course not. It’s Diodorus Siculus against Livy, duking it out with Siculus having just a mention of trouble, while Livy comes packing details. We take you through the chaotic details. The conflict centres in the town of Verrugo but watch out for mention of Tusculum as well.
New Year, New You?
It’s time for the Roman census! We also see a return of the consulship in 393 BCE! The tussle about moving some of Rome’s population permanently to Veii is back on the agenda. There’s a faction in favour of a move to Veii and a faction against. Our sources seem to position this as a patrician/plebeian divide, but it might be more confusing or complicated than that.
More Aequians on the Horizon…
Somehow, the Aequian forces, that were absolutely devastated in 394 BCE are BACK baby but their appearance seems only a flash in the pan compared to Rome’s troubles at home. There’s tribunes of the plebs to worry about, factional infighting over what to do about Veii, and some trials to contend with as well. It’s an exhausting time to be in Roman politics! Enter scene right: Camillus… How important was the tribune of the plebs right of veto? The question is raised in Livy’s narrative.
Things to listen out for
The Fall of Veii: Part I
Episode 158
Thursday, February 20, 2025 • Duration 58:30
396 BCE is finally here! Rome and Veii have been locked in a competition for space and resources for quite some time and it seems like the tide is about to turn. The year 396 BCE is perhaps one of the most significant years for Rome’s history in the early republic. Given the events at play, this episode is considering how the year begins and it might not be quite the thrills you might expect…
Episode 158 – The Fall of Veii – Part I
What’s going on with Rome’s magistrates?
The situation with Roman magistrates in 396 BCE is quite complicated. We spend some time considering some of the challenges we face with the evidence. There seems to have been some problems with the military tribunes which leads to a changing of the guard. There also seems to be great fondness for the plebeian military tribune with consular power, Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, but is he really fit for public duties? We consider the details.
The challenges of our sources
While Livy is providing plenty of narrative material for 396 BCE, every other ancient source seems only interested in some of the big ticket events and not the finer details of family politics in Rome. How can we reconcile these different accounts? We’ll try our best!
Success is not assured…
Rome gets off to a bad start in 396 BCE with a botched Roman ambush led by Genucius and Titinius. After waiting so long with the siege business, it seems a couple of the military tribunes with consular power decide that a little bit of action might be preferable. But things do not go according to plan… it’s only a matter of time for panic to set in among the citizens.
Things to listen out for
The gradual Etrurian retreat from Campania in favour of the north
The emphasis in the annalist tradition on the TEN years of conflict between Rome and Veii and the questions that might be asked about this
Our Players for 396 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerDictatorMaster of the HorseInterregesOur SourcesSound CreditsAutomated Transcript
Special Episode – Disability in Ancient Greece
Thursday, April 8, 2021 • Duration 01:01:29
There are many groups that are often overlooked in both ancient and modern societies. One of those are people with disabilities, and we were fortunate to talk to expert Dr Debby Sneed about her work on impairment in antiquity. Dr Sneed has examined a range of sources about this topic, including human remains, temples and textual evidence.
Her focus has mostly been on physical impairments that leave a trace in human remains. Sneed's focus is ancient Greece, but we couldn’t resist bringing Rome into the conversation every now and then!
In order to make this episode as accessible as possible, a full transcript will be provided for this episode.
Special Episode – Disability in Ancient Greece with Dr Debby Sneed
What's up for discussion?
In this conversation we delve into a number of questions, including:
How do you classify a disability in this line of research?
How many people in the ancient world would have had a disability?
What kinds of sources are available for studying disability in the ancient world?
What would life have been like for people with disabilities in the ancient world?
Topics that come up in the conversation:
Artistic representations of disability in Greece and Rome
Welfare systems in ancient Athens, as highlighted by Lysias 24, For The Disabled Man.
Transcript Our SourcesSound Credits
The Partial Recap – the 450s BCE
Thursday, April 1, 2021 • Duration 24:02
It's our second episode in The Partial Recap series. This is a short, sharp, scripted overview of all the big events that defined the 450s BCE. If you're inspired to delve into more details, all the episodes from this decade can be found in our Foundation of Rome series.
Let's jump into the refresher! It's the Partial Recap of the 450s BCE!
The Partial Recap – the 450s BCE
A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
TranscriptIntroduction
FR – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 450s BC!
PG – I’m Dr G
FR – and I’m Dr Rad
PG – and this is our highlights edition of the 450s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 459 to 450 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
FR – Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee
PG – Get ready for a recappuccino.
459 BCE
In 459 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Cornelius Maluginensus Uritnus and Quinctus Fabius Vibulanus, an old-hand in his third consulship.
Rome is picking up the pieces after the recent invasion. A census is carried out. Rome has 117 319 citizens. Lustral sacrifices are needed to cleanse the city.
Livy and Dionysius don’t really agree on the exact course of events. Perhaps Rome is trying to restore its rep after the military humiliation of the previous year?
What seems clear from both accounts is that the Volscians and Aequians are up to something and the Romans set off to deal with it.
They are particularly keen to help out the Tusculans who are under attack from the Aequains – or is this just a method for the Romans to restore their reputation after the invasion.
The Second Decemvirate is hotting up and it's not surprising to learn that Appius Claudius is somehow at the centre of things. We trace Rome through a precarious time, one that our sources have trouble dating – is it one year, two, three? It's c. 437 BCE; the magistracies are in disarray and the decemvirs hold sway. The situation takes a turn as Rome's neighbours sense an opportunity to invade…
Episode 111 – Decemvirs in the Senate
The Meeting of the Senate
It is perhaps a measure of how the Second Decemvirate is going that we're not sure how much time has passed before the decemvirs seek a meeting with the senate. There's a haziness around dates that indicates we could be looking at up to three years of decemvirate rule!
Appius Claudius speaks first in the Senate ostensibly to discuss how Rome will navigate the threats to her territory. But the Senate, having finally been called together under the rule of the decemvirs, have a lot of things they'd like to talk about! And boy do they have criticism to level. One very important point is that the decemvirs are operating outside the terms of their special magistracy and they are by consequence corrupting the nature of the republic.
The real thorn in Appius' side while in the senate meeting is the presence of his uncle, Gaius Claudius. The patriarchal structures dictate that Appius show respect for Gaius' opinion and this opens the way for some power speechifying.
Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus differ in their accounts of how this moment unfolds, but the significance of a familial connection in the senate is retained by both writers. We'll explore the similarities and differences of these sources.
There's some explosive details with Gaius Claudius touching on everything from what makes an honourable patrician, to his personal take on Appius' character flaws, to a savage endictment as to what can happen when you ignore relatives.
The Distraction FactorThings to ComeOur PlayersThe Decemvirs (named in this episode)The SenatorsAppius Claudius' FamilyOur SourcesSound Credits
Special Episode – The Reception of Cleopatra
Wednesday, March 3, 2021 • Duration 54:22
Cleopatra looms large in the imagination, but her legacy is often overshadowed by the western cultural tradition. It turns out that there are many ways to understand the last Pharaoh of Egypt.
Special Episode – The Reception of Cleopatra with Yentl Love
We were thrilled to sit down with Yentl Love to discuss the Islamic reception of Cleopatra. Love is known for her work in making ancient history and classics accessible through her blog the The Queer Classicist. Love has been studying Ancient History and Classics for a number of years and is now bringing the ancient world to life for readers across the globe.
Egypt's last pharaoh has a rather negative reputation in the western tradition. A classic example is the characterisation of her as a poisoner. Alexander Cabanel, Cleopatra Testing Poisons on Condemned Prisoners, between circa 1845 and circa 1887. Wikimedia Commons
Rethinking Cleopatra
Cleopatra VII was the last Pharaoh to rule Egypt. She was part of the Ptolemaic dynasty, descendants of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. She experienced her fair share of family drama. One of her sisters was executed for seizing the throne from their father! It may not have been a relaxing childhood, but it did prepare her for a political career when she became pharaoh at just eighteen, alongside her younger brother, Ptolemy XIII.
In this episode, we discuss Cleopatra’s journey and her encounters with some of the most famous Romans in history, including Julius Caesar, Mark Antony and Octavian (later Augustus!), and how these relationships would impact the way she was represented in the surviving sources.
There are many Greco-Roman sources that refer to Cleopatra, and these include histories, biographies, poems and letters. One factor that they have in common is the negative portrayal of the Egyptian Pharaoh. This is in contrast to the archaeological record, such as coins, statues and buildings.
Cleopatra the Scholar Select Bibliography
Episode 110 – The Mask Comes Off
Thursday, February 18, 2021 • Duration 42:43
The First Decemvirate was a big success, so much so that Rome opts for a Second Decemvirate!
The decemvirs were popular figures in Rome and during 451 BCE they produced the Ten Tables. This initial set of law codes was positively received by the population, but there was something missing… MORE LAWS!
But it isn't too long before some red flags appear…
Episode 110 – The Mask Comes Off
Wait a Second… Decemvirate
Appius Claudius campaigns hard to get himself re-elected, along with some of his patrician buddies. There are also some new and unusual names that appear in the list for the Second Decemvirate – we might have some plebeian magistrates on the team. Gasp!
As soon as they are confirmed in their positions, the charismatic, approachable and charming Appius reveals his true self and his real intentions. Tyranny!
Life in Rome quickly becomes extremely unpleasant for everyone as the decemvirs and their thugs flex their muscles, but it's especially tough if you are one of the less privileged persons in the populace. This a dark time for Rome. Join us to find out how they deal with the infamous Second Decemvirate!
The Cancelleria relief, frieze B. This piece is a relief from the rule of Domitian so far ahead of where we are in the narrative, but it does include a lictor carries the fasces with the axe. The first complete figure from the right is a lictor holding the fasces in his left hand.
Our PlayersThe Second Decemvirate
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
Spurius. Oppius Cornicen
Manius Rabuleius
Our Sources
Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome
Sound Credits
Special Episode – The Twelve Tables
Thursday, February 11, 2021 • Duration 36:21
The Twelve Tables are a landmark moment of early Republican Roman history. The lex duodecim tabularum see the codification of Rome's laws!
The name ‘The Twelve Tables' is derived from the idea that these laws were inscribed on to twelve oak tablets. We happen to know quite a lot about the content of the tables, even though they have not survived in epigraphic form. The evidence for the tables comes from extant literature.
Special Episode – The Twelve Tables
The main literary sources that we're reading at the moment, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, place the landmark moment of the codification around 450 BCE. The process is not a smooth one from their perspective! Normal magistracies are suspended in favour of a specially selected cohort of ten men who are granted authority to put together the law code.
Believe us when we tell you that the drama associated with the decemvirate has only just begun to be revealed in Episode 109.
The End of Long Struggle?
According to our literary sources, both of whom are writing hundreds of years after the events they describe, the Twelve Tables are the result of the Struggle of the Orders.
This ongoing rift between sections of the Roman population is contentious in its own ways, so it is worth considering the content of the Tables as a point of comparison. The difference between what we might expect of a law code that is the result of a class struggle and the laws themselves is quite something.
So that's just what we're going to do in this special mini-episode! Join as we dip into the details of the law code and some of the fascinating details we learn from this document 😊
Roman civilians examining the Twelve Tables after they were first implemented. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Looking to explore the Twelve Tables in more detail? You can read them all here!
The Partial Recap – the 460s BCE
Thursday, February 4, 2021 • Duration 23:09
The history of Rome is complex, even in the early Republic. Sometimes it's hard to keep all the details straight so we thought it might be a good time to try something new.
The Partial Recap series will be a scripted overview of each decade of Roman history. First cab off the rank is the decade of the 460s BCE. This is the last complete decade we've covered in our Foundation of Rome series, and we'll be working through the previous decades over the next few months.
Part of the benefit of these episodes will be to help refresh the memory of the key events of each year. We're also trying out a scripted style that easy allows us to share a transcript, which is a good step forward in terms of accessibility for our podcast. As technology progresses, we're hoping to automate accurate transcripts for our conversational episodes.
Join us for a Partial Recap of the 460s BCE!
The Partial Recap – The 460s BCE
“A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum.” Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
TranscriptInroduction
FR – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 460s BC!
PG – I’m Dr G
FR – and I’m Dr Rad
PG – and this is our highlights edition of the 460s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 469 to 460 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
FR – Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee
PG – Get ready for a recappuccino.
469 BCE
In 469, the consuls were Titus Numicus Priscus and Aulus Verginius Caelimontanus.
The apparent lack of broader support for Veii from Etruscan city-states further north
Rome’s fondness for building up their enemies in their histories and other written evidence
Chronological issues with the source material? Shock! Horror!
Does Livy have a penchant for family histories? Licinius Macer is worth a mention
Periander as Greek inspiration for Calvus?
Homeric parallels!
Igor taking a short break
Lucius Titinius L. f. M’. n. Pansa Saccus
Publius Licinius P. f. P. n. Calvus Esquilinus (Mr Original Plebeian in the role according to Livy)
Publius Maelius Sp. f. C. n. Capitolinus
Quintus Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus? (Pat)
Gnaeus Genucius M. f. M. n. Augurinus
Lucius Atilius L. f. L. n. Priscus
Marcus Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat)
Publius Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat)
Lucius Valerius (Potitus) (Pat)
Quintus Servilius Fidenas (Pat)
Marcus Furius Camillus (Pat)
Dr Rad reads Livy, 5.18.2-12
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus 12.13-16 and 13.1-3; Plutarch Life of Camillus 5-8; Diodorus Siculus 14.90.1; 14.93.2-3; Valerius Maximus 1.5.2; 1.8.3; Pliny Natural History 33.111; Appian Ital. 8; Florus 1.17; Aulus Gellius Attic Nights 17.21; Eutropius 1.20; [Aurelius Victor] De virus illustribus 23; Augustine The City of God 2.17; Orosius 2.19.1-4; Zonaras 7.21
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.
Our music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Additional sound effects from the BBC Sound Library,
Partial Reconstruction of a Temple at Veii – Photo credit to ArtSupp.
Lighted edited for our wonderful Australian accents.
Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr Rad
Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad
Dr G 1:05 and I am Dr G and I am so excited for this episode, because we are hitting a bonanza of a year. It is 396 BCE and oh boy. After a long time of not a lot happening, except people sitting around in a siege. I think something might be about to happen, Dr Rad.
Dr Rad 1:26 I think you might be right. Dr G, oh, it's been 10 long, wintry years.
Dr G 1:31 Yeah, look, I've grown a whole fur coat in that period of time, and it's not going away.
Dr Rad 1:38 Oh, Dr G, this is a big year. And you know, I was saying to you the other day off mic, that it feels a bit like our podcast journey sometimes oddly mirrors that of ancient Rome, because during the early republic, due to locations of recordings being switched around and issues with microphones, etc, etc, we had some ups and downs in terms of our experimentation with the show, and I feel like we've got it all sorted out just in time for 396 which you could kind of see as one of the most important years in early Republican history, I think.
Dr G 2:16 This is a massive time, so we're building the hype, and I don't think that this is something that we're over hyping at all. This is actually going to be an exceptional time in Rome's history, and the Romans know it as well. Just to put that out there, maybe a little bit too much, they are well aware, and when they write their histories about this time period, there is a great consistency to the sorts of things that they talk about. So I'm looking forward to delving into that. But perhaps we should do a bit of a where are we at recap, before we dive in.
Dr Rad 2:54 You read my mind, I was going to say I know we did talk. I know that every time Veii has come up, we have talked about the relationship between Rome and Veii, but this is the last time that we're probably going to really need to do this, and it is the end of the big conflict, the big feud. So I do think a recap is in order.
Dr G 3:17 Veii? Who are you and why do you exist?
Dr Rad 3:22 Why are you so far south? Why can't you be further north, like all the rest of the Etruscan cities?
Dr G 3:27 Well, the thing about Eturia as a kind of a group of people is that they used to be much further south than they appear to be by the time we get into Roman history proper. So as far as we're aware, there's good evidence for the Villanovan culture, which is the precursor to Etruscan culture. Archeologically, as far down as Campania, which is, you know, the Amalfi Coast, Naples, Positano, Pompeii, Herculaneum…
Dr Rad 3:57 All the gorgeous places to go on holiday.
Dr G 3:59 Exactly. And so Etruria actually extended right through the region where Rome has sort of popped up like a little city state mushroom. And now we're dealing with what is a legacy of kind of a fallout of many centuries of Etruscan retreat out of the south and the more substantial investment that they've had in their northern places of influence, so all the way up to what is now modern Milan, for instance.
Dr Rad 4:30 Yes, this is true, and we have seen some really interesting dynamics between the Etruscans and the Romans over the centuries. If we go back to our beloved regal period, Dr G, although we don't know exactly what was going on with those last few things, with those last few kings.
Dr G 4:48 Oh, those guys
Dr Rad 4:49 Yeah, those guys, those things, yeah, those things, the kings, we certainly know that there's obviously an interesting relationship between Etruria and Rome at that time period. Was it an invasion? Was it a hostile takeover? Did the Romans welcome them with open arms? We'll never know.
Dr G 5:11 But there's certainly lots of parallels in terms of the cultural exchange that seems to have gone on between early Romans and the Etruscans, and the fact that this rivalry between Rome and Veii has taken the shape that it has is mostly to do with their proximity to each other and the competition for local resources. So one of the things that has been a source of conflict is control of the salt pans at Ostia as the river hits the Mediterranean Sea, there's been competition about that they used to control it. Rome eventually seems to have taken over. Veii is pretty unhappy about that. And then we do see increasing violence across the fifth century BCE, where the archeology suggests that there is ongoing raiding across both sides, and a lot of that agricultural land that sits in between these two places, which are a mere few kilometers away from each other, has produced this sort of escalation in violence across the century. And now here we are at the moment of a siege, which has been taking place for years now. Rome's been sitting outside the gates of a being like hand over the keys, and the Etruscans inside. They are like, Not on your life.
Dr Rad 6:33 Well, this is the thing ,Veii is fairly well positioned in terms of the you know, this speaks to the fact that the Romans couldn't just waltz in and take it. And so there's probably no doubt that there was really a lengthy siege between Rome and Veii at this moment. However, was it a neat little 10 years as Livy wants us to think, Dr G?
Dr G 6:57 Well, I think that's debatable. There's obviously a lot of incentive to draw that Trojan War comparison that I think Livy explicitly references as well at some point. So, yeah, good times for the Romans.
Dr Rad 7:13 Yes, exactly. Yeah. So there's some questions about the exact length of this siege, but a lengthy siege, I think would be an order, given how well positioned Veii is, and we have seen conflict throughout the early republic with Veii, Dr G, just a quick reminder of some of the biggest hits.
Dr G 7:33 Yes, please.
Dr Rad 7:34 483 to 474. That's when we had the first conflict between Rome and Veii. And the Romans weren't always beaten, but that was, of course, the time period where there was a fairly significant defeat with the fabulous Fabians, where we had a family that was almost entirely wiped out when they tried to take on they on behalf of Rome.
Dr G 8:00 Yeah, so we get this sense that we've got elite families acting as local war bands in the region, and presumably they is touching on Fabian interests in the area. But Cremera is a sad day for the Fabians. And fabulous or not, they mostly don't make it through.
Dr Rad 8:21 Exactly. So doesn't end that well for Rome on that particular point, because that becomes a pretty infamous moment in Roman history. However, when we get to the 430s we have another conflict with Veii, and this, of course, involves the possession of Fidenae, which is tossed backwards and forwards between Roman ve throughout the years. And this is where we get the murder of those Roman ambassadors at Veii. And then in the conflict that ensued, we see the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius, slain by Cossus.
Dr G 8:58 Stabbed right through the groin. Yeah, what a time to be alive. So Fidenae, as far as we understand it from the archeological record, seems to also have been a mostly Etruscan populated area. So Rome has this real incentive as a sort of buffer zone, to take Fidenae, try to re populate it with Romans, colonialism, colonialism… and to create that sort of buffer point for themselves so that they can easily move forward towards they so the competition is really hotting up between these two by the time we get to what happens with Fidenae, and then also the devastation of they losing a king. And this feeds into a broader understanding of how are the Etruscans running themselves. And one of the narrative features of Rome's conversation about the Etruscans is that the Etruscans have a group of 12 kings, and that's kind of the leadership circle that runs everything. But it seems like what we can tell from the Etruscans is that there are a loose collection of city states that share some cultural interests. They have different leaders within the particular city states themselves who come together to talk about things. Now, whether that number is precisely 12 or some other number which isn't quite as pretty from a Roman perspective, I don't know.
Dr Rad 10:36 This is the big question. And then, of course, we've got the final conflict, the 10 year – asterix asterix – siege of Veii which is coming to an end in this particular year. Now, the interesting thing is that in this 10 years, we have seen they been continually rebuffed by its Etruscan sister, states, Sister cities. And this is something that the Romans, I think, find a bit puzzling, as well as modern scholars like ourselves. But I think that speaks to what you were just saying. The Etruscan cities are not a country or a nation in the way that we would understand it. In fact, even the way that they are represented in our sources might be a little bit questionable. We have these regular meetings where they all come together and they talk about matters that concern the Etruscan community. And this is where they says, Hey, I think I've got some remnants camped on my doorstep, little help. And the Etruscan saying, No. What some scholars have theorized is that maybe this collection was actually more religious in nature, or something along those lines, but it's been painted as more of a military or political alliance because the Romans maybe wanted to build up the nature of the threat that they were facing in taking on Veii.
Dr G 12:04 Okay. This is a classic Roman literary trope, which, like listeners, need to be aware of, because the Romans will do this at every opportunity. There is nothing more satisfying than winning against a very worthy opponent. So it's not cool to, like, just beat up your neighbors and be like, I did it, and everyone like you're a bully. So it's much better if you can be like, Look, these guys were aggressive. They're a really potent force to have to deal with. They've got lots of friends in the north, but they're not chipping in because they know these guys are on the wrong side of things, and they should just be bowing down to Rome at this point. So it produces a kind of narrative that allows Roman citizens to feel good about the violence that they do to other people. And I suppose if this was a more modern period in history, you might start to think of this as a kind of like military nationalism. This is not how the ancient Romans would have thought about it, but it certainly has that kind of quality to it where it's about justification. It's about being proud of the violence that you're able to do, and that means that the enemy has to be worthy of being conquered in the first place.
Dr Rad 13:25 Absolutely. And what you just highlighted there again is that there have been all these supernatural signs as well that things are about to happen. The game is afoot, Dr. G.
Dr G 13:37 The gods are watching.
Dr Rad 13:40 We've seen in previous years, you know, the Romans needing to consult the Sibylline Books to go to the Delphic Oracle. We've seen the flooding of the Alban lake and the fact that the Romans need to, you know, fulfill a certain act in order to, in order for Veii to fall, you know, they've, we've seen them also trying to get the gods back on side. There's been various things that they've had to do in terms of the spiritual world. And it's possibly that actually what people like the later analysts had to work with, and the analysts of the people that Livy and Dionysus are working from, we presume they might have actually been working from probably your favorite source, Dr G, priestley records, who were keeping track of these big religious moments and developments which supposedly happened at around this time, and that might be part of that important skeleton that they're working from. And then lean into epics a little bit.
Dr G 14:36 Just few details here and there. That's fine,
Dr Rad 14:38 Yeah, just yeah. We'll add in like a massive hero, and I'll throw some Trojan war on top. You know, nothing, nothing too crazy.
Dr G 14:47 Get it all in there. Yeah, let's make this a rousing read as well as an exciting time for the gods.
Dr Rad 14:55 All right, Dr G, so here we are. I think it's time to actually dive in to 396. In the grand tradition of our podcast, please tell me who were the magistrates in this most momentous of years.
Dr G 15:46 Oh, this year is full of names. My God, there are so many. First of all, we've got military tribunes with consular power. Naturally, there's six of them. Chaotic times, Siege of Veii times. This is now pretty standard for them to have so many in the field. First of all, we've gotLucius Titinius Pansa Saccus, previously military tribune with consular power in 400 BCE.
Dr Rad 16:17 Not an accident. I'm going to come back to that.
Dr G 16:22 Look, I put it to you that we've got quite the cohort of plebeians, and this guy is the first of many. He is accompanied by Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, also military tribune with consular power in 400.
Dr Rad 16:42 The first plebeian one apparently.
Dr G 16:46 Apparently, except he serves with a whole bunch of others. Apparently,
Dr Rad 16:51 Shhh, your reality is ruining it.
Dr G 16:54 I'm sorry that Livy got something wrong. I really am.
I think we might have to, though. Okay, well, you can keep that position for now. We also have Publius Maelius Capitolinus, previously military tribune with consular power in 400 also a plebeian. That's three for three.
Dr Rad 17:21 Seeing a pattern here, seeing a pattern here,
Dr G 17:24 Quintus Maelius Vulso Capitolinus, now unfortunately, big brackets, patrician, then we have –
Dr Rad 17:33 There's bound to be at least one.
Dr G 17:35 You know, they can't help themselves, can they?
Dr Rad 17:36 Yeah.
Dr G 17:37 Gnaeus Genucius Augurinus, previously, military tribune with consular power in 399. Also notably a plebeian. And finally, last, but definitely not least, Lucius Atilius Priscus, also previously military tribune with consular power in 399. Also plebeian. So that's five of the six plebeians.
Dr Rad 18:06 But there are so many question marks we're going to get into this. But there are a lot of question marks about these names and who these guys are.
Dr G 18:12 And also like, does it matter if it's also the year where you get a dictator?
Dr Rad 18:17 Yes, let's roll him out. Dr G, who is our dictator for this year?
Dr G 18:23 Hold your breath, everybody. This is going to come as a massive surprise. Our dictator this year is a guy called Marcus Furius Camillus. Wow.
Dr Rad 18:32 The crowd goes wild! Now you know what? Our listeners might not be super excited to hear his name. Dr G, because whilst he's been around for a little while now, he has always kind of just been there, you know.
Dr G 18:47 Just hanging about, not, not hugely distinguishing himself, although he's done some things previously, military tribune with consular power in 401, and 398, so he's had a couple of rounds in The top gig, but now he's being given like a really special job dictator. And boy, we'll see how that goes for him. And he is joined by the master of the horse. So what happens when a dictator gets selected? The Senate usually decides that things have gotten out of hand in really particular ways. It might be a religious way. It might be a military way. There is a problem that needs to be solved. They require a dictator, somebody to take up all of the reins of power for a really finite period of time to solve this particular issue, whatever it is. And when that person is decided upon, and they accept the position and be like, Sure, I'll be dictator. Usually, the first thing that they do is select an offsider to be like their kind of like other person to be in charge of stuff. Now, the role of the master of the horse is something that I think we should definitely devote an episode to in the future, because there's some complexity there. But for now, it's sounds like a guy with a horse, very exciting. And this year we have Publius Cornelius Maguginensis.
Dr Rad 20:11 A mouthful.
Dr G 20:13 So he says. Previously, military tribune with consular power in 397. So everybody in these sort of top gigs has been around traps recently, but we also have some intereges. Oh, so finally, we're on to the last magistrates of this year.
Dr Rad 20:34 Are you sick of all this Latin?
Dr G 20:36 It's a lot, it's a lot, and they're all names. And you think to yourself, and after a while, you're like,Lucius this Marcus that? And it's like, look, we put them in here because we know the names. And apparently there's lists of these names, and you'll be surprised how little they're referred to in any of the actual source material. So it is kind of incredible, but we have three interreges which means that we've got a situation where at some point the cohort of magistrates that we have in power have to come out of power. And it seems to be not just related to the dictatorship, it may be related to other things as well. And there needs to be a new set of people decided upon. So you've got to have some interim people to look after that situation. And the interreges are those people. And we have Lucius Valerius, possibly Potitus brackets. We also have Quintus Servilius Fidenas, and also stepping into a second role for the year, Marcus Furius Camillus.
Dr Rad 21:38 Hmm.
Dr G 21:39 Hmm. What could it all mean?
Dr Rad 21:41 Curioser and curioser. Well, Dr G, I think I can clear up some of your questions around these magistrates. Oh, please allow me to use Livy,
Dr G 21:52 Please. I mean, that's the one source I haven't read.
Dr Rad 21:54 All right. So in order to understand why we have so many magistrates, and some of the details about these magistrates, we do need to backtrack a little bit to what I told you at the end of last episode, so you might remember that. Well, I'm going to call him, I guess, can I call him Calvus? Publius Licinius?
Dr G 22:15 You could. You know this, this very moderate plebeian who's completely okay for the patricians because he's such a mediocre individual.
Dr Rad 22:26 Exactly, yes, I feel like Calvus is a name that kind of distinguishes him. So that guy, the guy that was the first official military tribune with consular power in 400 BCE, the end of last episode, when they were organizing the elections for the next year. He was brought in even though he wasn't running for the position, because the Romans looked around and thought, You know what? We need someone moderate right now, things are a little tense in the city, between patricians and plebeians. This whole situation with they there's been that whole lake issue. We need someone moderate who's going to calm everything down. You know what? We'll bring him back, and we'll get the band back together, military tribunes with consular power, 400 BC, it's your time to rock and roll.
Dr G 23:18 It's retro.
Dr Rad 23:19 Only one slight problem with that, Dr, G, and you already highlighted it in your list of magistrates.
Dr G 23:25 And what is that problem?
Dr Rad 23:27 That they're not all from 400 BCE.
Well, this is the issue. Livy tells us that this is what happened that he was brought in. And they were like, yep, we'll bring back his whole little gang, because that worked really well. Let's go with a tried and true recipe here. But the names do not match. Some of them do, sure, but not all of them.
Dr G 23:55 These people
Dr Rad 23:56 Problem number one. Now the interreges come into the story because, of course, they were holding power because, you might recall, there was an issue with the previous set of military tribunes with consular power, so they were holding power until the next elections were organized, and that's why we have some interreges listed.
Dr G 24:16 Oh, okay, so they're actually related to whatever happened in 397
Dr Rad 24:21 Yes, this is probably something we should probably mention quickly. The Roman year doesn't function in the same way that our current calendar year works, where we say we begin in January and end in December. Technically speaking, Dr G and I have been misleading you somewhat. Listen in that there's always kind of two of our years that make up a Roman year because they end at a different time. So it might be September, for example, that the Roman year ends in terms of when new magistrates are coming in. And the Romans, of course, date their years by the magistrates. They don't know who Jesus is; they don't care at this moment in time, and so they just don't have the same system that we have. So yes, basically, as far as we can tell, there was an issue where the previous group of military tribunes with consular power, there was some problem with the way that they were inaugurated. I'm going to say
Dr G 25:19 yep
Dr Rad 25:20 And as a result, they had to have some interreges, and they had to organize a new set coming through. And this is where we had Calvus being mentioned as being someone who would be good for the job. So look, that is where we are at.
Dr G 25:33 Safe pair of hands. Get him in there.
Dr Rad 25:36 Exactly. Now, Calvus himself is pretty chuffed, as you can imagine, to have been brought up as the leader of this dream team. We are Dream Girls. Yeah, we'll make you happy. Yeah, yeah. However, there's a problem, there's a problem, yeah, there is a problem, yeah, in spite of the exhilarating soundtrack to this year, Calvus is getting on in years. You might remember when we first talked about him as military tribune with consular power in 400 we talked about the fact that he'd apparently served in the Senate for like yonks, and we were shocked that he'd just been in the Senate. This little plebeian guy never heard of-
Dr G 26:19 Just hanging out there-
Dr Rad 26:19 Yeah, he is the one. So he seems to be an elderly man by this point in time, okay? And he doesn't feel like he's actually physically up to the job. He actually details all the different ways that he's not up for the job. He's got issues with his sight, his hearing is worse. I sympathize. And just generally, physically, he's just about for he even says his memory is bad. I mean, I think we're dealing with Joe Biden here.
Dr G 26:52 It's a tough time. Yeah, look, look, put that guy in charge. You know, the one with the white hairover there. It'll be great.
Dr Rad 27:00 Well, it would make sense as a senator, given where we think that word comes from, something to do with old men. However, he has a plan, because he doesn't want to let this opportunity slip through his fingers. And after all, he knows why he's being singled out, and he doesn't want to ruin that for Rome, given that everyone seems to be on board. So he suggests, Hey, did you know I have a kid, Calvus 2.0 I like to call him the new and improved model. He has exactly the same values as me because I raised him. And as we all know, in ancient Rome, anybody has children, their children turn out to be exactly the same as them. That's why all their families have exactly the same characteristics. It doesn't even matter if you're talking about the grandfather or the son, they'll basically be the same person.
Dr G 27:54 Yes, so this is a way in which Roman families work very differently from the way we think of modern families. So the politics of the ancient Roman family seems to be really grounded in upholding familial tradition. So you gotta toe the line. If you don't, you're just not gonna progress with your career in any particular way, like your family won't put you forward for things. We start to see this really particularly later on in the Republic. But I suppose what Livy might be suggesting here is that there's some retrojection of those sort of ideas. Those ideas come from somewhere, and the natural sort of conservatism of the Roman family structure is on full display here.
Dr Rad 28:42 It is. And what is even more shocking than the fact that this guy was chosen for this highly contested office without putting himself forward and seemingly being on his last legs, everyone agrees that, yeah, we'll just take the sun. That's fine. We'll take the discount model we want. We want him. We want a bit of that interesting. Okay, yes, now this is where I do have to highlight a possible problem with Livy's source material, and it pains me to say it, Dr G.
Dr G 29:14 Well, I'm glad you're confessing to it, because it sounds like a problem to me as well, and I was going to mention as such. So please. What's the problem here?
Dr Rad 29:25 I shall atone for him. Shame. So Livy is drawing on, obviously, a bunch of earlier sources, which we unfortunately don't often have, or if we do have any of them, it's very fragmentary, hard to put together. We do know, though, that one of his sources that he switches around between is from a family chronicler called Licinus Macer or Macer, depending on how you like your C's. Now the name says it all, Dr G, these two guys that we're talking about, if I give them their full name, they are, of course, the Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus – that's the dad Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus – Licinius, it's right there. It seems like maybe one of Livy's sources might have been trying to add a little bit of pixie dust to his family history, perhaps.
Dr G 30:19 Ah yes. So Licnius Macer is obviously part of the broader Licinius gens, and there's a real incentive in terms of Roman family politics, to build the gens history up in various ways. So we are caught in a pretty tricky position, because we know that there is incentive in our source material to put together a certain perspective for us.
Dr Rad 30:48 absolutely it is the curated Instagram of ancient Rome, these family histories which have snuck into our source material.
Dr G 30:57 Well
Dr Rad 30:57 Dodgy.
Dr G 30:58 What else did Livy have to work with? I mean, this is the real trouble.
Dr Rad 31:01 Well, yes. I mean, if we look at the Fasti and we look at other sources, they all list the father as the magistrate for this particular year. So it's interesting that we do have this embellishment where the Romans are like, yeah, cool, just flip your son in, yeah, you're basically the same person because you're related, right?
Dr G 31:20 Yes. So the Fasti Capitolini was produced quite a bit later, as far as we assume. But yes, they do mention the father holding the position for the second time.
Dr Rad 31:32 Yes
Dr G 31:32 Not the son, which would be distinguished with a different sort of ligature.
Dr Rad 31:38 Yeah. So obviously, there are huge issues with the lists of names for this year, given that Livy's telling us, oh yeah, they got all the guys from 400 and then the father was like, No, take my son. And everyone was like, yeah, cool, sure. And none of this seems to be reflected in the records of names that we have. The names do not match up with the narrative that Livy is giving us. Now it is possible that they're trying to perhaps imitate another story from Greece, with this whole father son dynamic, that of Periander, who was the second tyrant of Corinth and ruled from around 627, to around 587 BCE, there was a whole shindig with him possibly stepping aside for a son, didn't really work out that well, but it might be that they're trying to draw on other examples here. We don't know what's going on, but this is what academics have noticed in terms of the way that the source material is developing and the kind of narrative that might be being laid over the bare bones that they would have had to work with.
Dr G 32:45 Look to me, all of this is really fascinating, because, as you know, I don't have a lot of Dionysus, of Halicarnassus right now, who was-
Dr Rad 32:54 What? This is brand new information.
Dr G 32:58 I've got a little bit, but I don't have him in the fulsome way that I would really like to be able to offer a counter narrative to what Livy is doing. But because this year is so significant, I actually have heaps of sources for this year. But you know what? None of them care about anything to do with these military tribunes, fathers, sons or otherwise, it is not on their radar. It is not the centerpiece for this year at all. And so I'm really grateful that Livy is providing a little bit of embellishment and detail, because this is making up for a more fulsome story, which I had no idea existed because I didn't have to read Livy in order to prepare for this episode.
Dr Rad 33:39 This is why you have to read all the primary source material, children.
Dr G 33:44 Let this be a lesson to you all. Now, as a good ancient historian, I would if I was studying this period for real, not within the context of this podcast, which is also studying for it, for real in another way,
Dr Rad 33:56 I was going to say – what? This isn't for real? Am I in The Matrix?
Dr G 34:00 But let's say, If I was writing an academic paper, obviously I would have also read Livy
Dr Rad 34:04 Sure
Dr G 34:04 But because that's not what we're doing here, because we're reading different
Dr Rad 34:08 We have a schtick
Dr G 34:09 Yeah, we're reading different primary source material. That's part of the process with this. So it creates these really interesting gaps for me at times, and this is definitely one of them, like I had all of this list of names that I got from Broughton. Love Broughton always thankful for the work that Broughton has done here, compiling these massive lists of magistrates for every year throughout all of the Republic. And I had this list, and then I had the source material. And look, I have excerpts from Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Plutarch, Diodorus Siculus, Valerius Maximus Pliny the Elder, Appian, Florus, Aulus Gellius, Eutropius, the anonymous but pseudo Aurelius Victor, Augustine, Orosius, and Zonaras. I have. All of these sources. And you know what? None of them mention this controversy with father and son as military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 35:07 Well, quite frankly, you just look lazy, now.
Dr G 35:12 What are they not telling me?
Dr Rad 35:13 I do appreciate all that different source material, because I have read… Livy.
Dr G 35:18 The suppression of information here is profound.
Dr Rad 35:24 Now let's get on to some action, because I think this is what your sources want us to get to. So Titus and Genucius some of our military tribunes with consular power, they are sent to deal with the allies of Veii. Now I know I just said that the Etruscans were later-dazing the people of They, however, not all Etruscans turned their backs on the people of Veii. We do have people from nearby cities, the Faliscans and the Capenantes, who decided that, oh, I guess if Veii falls,that means that we're probably next on Rome's plans of expansion. So we probably should help them out. So they do have some allies from up north, Titanius and Genucius are very keen to wipe the floor with these guys. However, their enthusiasm might have led them astray, Dr G.
Dr G 36:19 Oh, no, what have they done?
Dr Rad 36:21 They didn't spend quite enough time planning everything out, and they decide that they're going to launch straight into an ambush without following all the possibilities through. Now what ends up happening is that Genucius dies fighting bravely at the front of this battle. In fact, he dies in front of the standards, Dr. G.
Dr G 36:48 Oh, that's terrible news. Okay, of all of the places to die, that is from a sort of divine perspective, the worst.
Dr Rad 36:58 However, it is kind of admirable in the sense of it shows his bravery. So even though the Romans are going to be really irritated by the fact that they just launch in without much forethought, they forgive him because he's dead.
Dr G 37:15 Ah, okay, because he led from the front, so presumably his wounds are also at the front.
Dr Rad 37:22 Hell yes, they are. Actually, it doesn't specifically say, but I would presume so definitely, the point is being made here that he was brave and he was trying to do the right thing, even though completely missed that.
Dr G 37:34 And the kind of commander that is willing to put themselves at risk in the front line is you could view this as being, like, quite silly, because obviously the army needs its commander, and if you lose the commander, the army will probably fall apart, because they won't know what to do anymore. Because you need somebody strategic maybe. But from a Roman perspective, this is a huge courage as well. Like, this is the sort of thing where it's like, you can really rally the troops if you lead from the front and get them into it, if they weren't really sure about what was going on and be like, run in.
Dr Rad 37:34 Yeah, just try not to die in the process.
Dr G 38:08 Yeah.
Dr Rad 38:08 That tends to be a downer.
Dr G 38:09 Don't do a Genucius, because it's risky if you die.
Dr Rad 38:15 And there are some questions again, about the nature of this death, because there is another conucius from 362 BCE, who dies in a suspiciously similar fashion, Dr G.
Dr G 38:28 So, looking forward, in another sort of 40 years, we're going to have a similar moment. Okay.
Dr Rad 38:35 We might, we might.
Dr G 38:37 I sense problems with the chronology.
Dr Rad 38:40 Yes. Now Titinius, of course, is still alive, but the men all around him are thrown into chaos. Things are unraveling fairly quickly in this scenario, not ideal, so Titinius decides to gather all the men around, and he says, You know what? I feel like it's too much of a risk to fight our enemy on level ground. So I would imagine like some sort of open plain where everyone can see everybody. It's open season.
Dr G 39:10 There's nowhere to hide.
Dr Rad 39:11 It's wabbit season. Yeah, so things are not going particularly well, and the Romans do not feel great about this, and Titinius is going to cop all of the flat, because he is the one that's left alive after this defeat. Very disgraceful. The Romans back in the city as well are panicking, as we see so often, because rumor of what is going down has reached them, which, again, sort of shows you just how close these things must be happening. Even though they sound very grand, they're obviously not that far away, in that rumour can get back to the city pretty quickly in time enough for people to start tearing out their hair.
Dr G 39:55 All right. So, yeah, Rome's not in a great way. They're not feeling the vibe. They're having a bit of a panic. Okay, goodo.
Dr Rad 40:00 Now even worse, perhaps, there is, of course, the military encampment before they where the Romans are besieging the city. They also hear that there's been a pretty catastrophic defeat, and one of the Roman magistrates has been killed again. Not a morale booster. No, not what you want to hear in 396 BCE,
Dr G 40:03 No, not after you've been at this siege for so long.
Dr Rad 40:05 No. So they've heard that the Capenantes and Faliscans have won, killed the commanders and slaughtered the whole army, and that the remnants of their enemies are now coming for them, backed by all the men of Etruria.
Dr G 40:45 Oh, okay, well, that's a real turnaround for the books, because last I heard, Etruria was not coming.
Dr Rad 40:52 Look, it's another good lesson for our listeners, Dr G, in that rumors can get out of hand really quickly. Yeah. So in Rome, they've heard that all of the same things. So they've heard all of that, plus they've heard that the encampment before they of their fellow Romans is also being assaulted, and that, you know, there are going to be more people sent from their enemy towards the city itself. Okay, so their camp is under siege. They're going to be attacked next and again, not far away. So time is a ticking.
Dr G 41:28 It seems like the panic is really setting in, and it's becoming a bit contagious, isn't it? And everybody's story is worse than the last story, and people are believing everything that they hear regardless.
Dr Rad 41:40 It does seem that so we have this scene in Livy where the Roman citizens are racing to the walls. The women of Rome are running to the temples to pray for the protection from the gods, and they want instead for the gods to back Rome. Trash Veii. What is with this? What is with this turning of tables? Not appreciated gods of Rome. Thank you very much.
Dr G 42:03 We started this violence. We need to win to end it, not lose.
Dr Rad 42:08 Exactly. And they're like, look, we'll make sure that all the sacred rites are fully renewed. We'll make sure that all the signs are dealt with. We'll deal with all the stuff you want us to deal with. Just please, please, make sure our city stays strong and our enemies are defeated.
Dr G 42:29 Okay, that's, it's a big call.
Dr Rad 42:30 Now if this is ringing any bells it should. Once again, we have a bit of Homeric additions being inserted here. This is potentially meant to remind readers of what happened when Hector went out to battle. So it's meant to be drawing on the Iliad basically.
Dr G 42:53 Interesting.
Dr Rad 42:54 Yeah. So panic in the city, women in temples. You know? Prayer happening? People at the walls.
Dr G 43:02 Yeah, everything's getting to its sort of climactic moment, isn't it?
Dr Rad 43:08 It really is, yes. So this is perhaps the moment to pause and just talk a little bit about what Livy's actually drawing on here. So we've already talked about the priestly records, the family chroniclers, maybe drawing on later incidents in Roman history to make sense of the bare bones, and not Livy directly, perhaps also obviously his sources, the earlier analysts and that sort of thing. But we may also even have other sources, like Ennius, who I know you've spoken about a little bit before.
Dr G 43:40 Yes, so Ennius writes an epic of Rome's foundation and early history, and his text becomes the preeminent school text for many centuries. So it's only really displaced by Virgil's Aeneid, and that takes a while. So there's a good couple of 100 years where Ennius is the go to text, to learn, to study poetry, but also to learn about Rome's history. So it would make sense for Livy to be drawing upon it, for sure.
Dr Rad 44:19 Yeah, and this is exactly it we so we've got Licinius Macer. He's probably also drawing on someone called Valerius Antius, again, someone we don't have much of, but we know was a major source of Livy. But he is also drawing on these epic traditions, which would come from ennius, would come from Homer. And this passage, apparently was also then later copied by other Greco-Roman writers because they found it, you know, very inspirational scene. I think it would be like them seeing a really intense part of a movie, you know, a scene that really resonates with them and gives them a strong visual. And so they go back to it as a reference point. And they're doing their own version of something later on. So that particular passage is actually meant to be kind of iconic, I suppose.
Dr G 45:08 Mmm0mmm. Ah interesting. So, yeah, we're getting more into like, what is history and is it just literature in another form.
Dr Rad 45:19 Indeed, indeed. Now, of course, the Romans need to make sure that their relationship is square with the gods if they want to see any success against Veii, and want to make sure they escape this terrible fate which seems to await them right now, enemies of the gate, although they're not really in this rumored so water obviously had to be drawn off the Alban lake. And we know that potentially, this actually did happen, because we've got those remnants that we've talked about before, of, you know, the tunneling and that sort of thing. We don't know exactly when that happened. Does it line up with these accounts? But there's some sort of record there which is interesting, giving some archeological backing to our literary accounts. There does seem to have also been some issues with games, or some sort of festival that the Romans were meant to have held at this point in time, which would be again, connected with the gods. It sounds like, Oh, what a great moment to kick up your feet and have a great time, but that's not, obviously what it's about. And you would know more about this than I would with its religious connections, things like games and festivals.
Dr G 46:24 Well, sure, if it had cropped up in any of my sources, I would be able to tell you something about it. I mean in general terms, I assume this is going to be a reference and correct me if I'm wrong to one of the sort of Pan Latin get togethers, where people of a Latin background gather in certain locations to do some shared ritual stuff. So you have to send people out of the city, which obviously, in this at this point in time, sounds like it would be quite dangerous. Maybe it's not the time to have a festival where you send some delegates.
Dr Rad 47:01 The Festivus for the rest of us.
Dr G 47:02 Yeah, look, everybody's running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Is now the time other people would definitely argue, within the context of the city, that it is more important than ever to send a delegation to something that might be a collective kind of festival, precisely because everything seems to be in a very delicate balance, not in favor of Rome.
Dr Rad 47:28 Yes, and this is exactly why they're like, Oh, crap. We really should have dealt with that water situation on the Alban lake before all of this went down. And they talk about games and a Latin festival. So I think you're 100% on the money. Part of the issue, apparently, is that, from later sources, standpoints, they tend to use terms like Ludi and Feriae. I don't know how to say that actually properly. And that, now that I read, now that I'm saying it out loud, I've just been reading it all this time, they are both things that involve people having holidays in ancient Rome, but they're not necessarily, obviously, exactly the same thing that happened at exactly the same time. When we talk about Ludi or games later on, we are talking more about public games. You know, by the time we get into the period that's better documented. But that's not necessarily what's happening at this moment in time. We don't necessarily see games being attached to festivals this early, from my understanding, so there might be a bit of confusion there, but certainly there's some sort of, you know, festival connected with the gods that the Romans realized. Well, we better hold them again, because the gods are clearly not on our side right now, not with enemies at the gate. No, thank you. And so they're dealing with basically everything they possibly can. They're trying to put out all the fires to make sure that they are protected.
Dr G 48:53 Yep, fair enough. Send the delegation. Do the games? Do the festivals? Go to the sweet locations and do some sacrifices.
Dr Rad 49:01 Yes, and now that this is all taken care of, that the Romans think very smugly to themselves, it is time for Veii to die. Mwahahahahaha.
Dr G 49:14 Oooo boy. Okay? Well, in that case, I think as as horrifying as it's going to sound, I think this might be the moment to pause and to wrap up this episode, because I leave it on this cliffhanger, because things are about to happen and wow, what a build up.
Dr Rad 49:35 Absolutely. I mean, it shows that 396 didn't necessarily start off that well for the Romanshowever, trust us, listeners, we're building to a climax.
Dr G 49:49 Ooh, boy
Dr Rad 49:50 yeah, fun is us here with us. All right. Dr, G, well, that means it is time for the Partial Pick.
Dr G 49:58
(bird noises)
Dr Rad 50:01 Tell us how the Partial Pick works, Dr G.
Dr G 50:03 Well, we are raiding Rome against its own sort of measures of success. Now, I don't, I don't anticipate Rome's gonna do great right now, but let's give it a whirl and see. So we've got five categories, and within each category there are 10 Golden Eagles up for grabs. So the golden eagles are like the fancy things that might sit on top of your standard and
Dr Rad 50:34 Before you die in front of it.
Dr G 50:35 Before you die in front of it, yeah, or before you lose it, you know, all of those kinds of positive things. So the first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 50:45 Right. Well, so far in 396 the Romans have had a disastrous defeat.
Dr G 50:51 Yeah, they've gone for what an unplanned ambush that has led to the death of one of the military tribunes with consular power, and then the other one copping all of the blame for whatever happened next, which doesn't seem great.
Dr Rad 51:08 And the Romans themselves don't even seem to really know what is going on, because there's such chaos amongst his forces. So, yeah, not looking good.
Dr G 51:17 Look, I feel like we can't give them much of a score. It's probably I, I'd be inclined to maybe give them a one for the fact that they're still holding out at the siege area of Veii
Dr Rad 51:29 sure, yeah, well that's the thing. They haven't actually lost any territory or anything. They just were trying to take care of the allies of Veii It did not work.
Dr G 51:40 Yeah, yeah, they've suffered some military defeats, but we haven't heard anything particularly negative about what has happened outside the gates of Veii. I mean, there's been some sort of panic stations in Rome, but it sounds like they're operating on rumor rather than fact. So I'm willing to give Rome one.
Dr Rad 51:58 Fair enough, that is one.
Dr G 52:00 One point. So far so good. Our second category is diplomacy.
Dr Rad 52:08 I feel like there is not much diplomacy going on, given that they're trying to ambush their enemies. It sounds like there is no diplomacy going on. That's a zero from me.
Dr G 52:20 All right? Expansion.
Dr Rad 52:23 No, not yet. Not yet. We're tiptoeing closer, ever closer.
Dr G 52:31 Foreshadowing. Okay, so that's a zero. Virtus?
Dr Rad 52:37 Okay, now, as disastrous as this whole plan was, I feel like maybe is dying at the front of his forces is an example of virtus, and that's why the Romans are like, Well, you're a bit of an idiot, but we love you, buddy.
Dr G 52:56 It's sad and tragic, but thanks for doing it the right way.
Dr Rad 53:01 Exactly if you're gonna go out, glad you went out in style.
Dr G 53:04 Yeah. So this is where, like Roman value systems are really quite different from anything that we would be accustomed to. Because when I hear about somebody leading from the front, I think very foolish, but I think the Romans think, Wow. What a man.
Dr Rad 53:23 They do. They hear that Salt'n'Pepa, and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr G 53:29 And look, if he'd come back alive, that would have been chef's kiss from a Roman perspective.
Dr Rad 53:36 Yes, exactly, leading from the front. Glorious win.
Dr G 53:41 Yeah.
Dr Rad 53:41 All would have been good.
Dr G 53:42 You can't beat anything like that. He would have been a star player for years to come as a result of that. It's just a real tragedy that he went and died instead.
Dr Rad 53:51 Yep, and left his teammate out there, going, what am I going to do now?
Dr G 53:57 Yeah, like guys, I thought we were a team, but you've left me all by myself.
Dr Rad 54:06 Poor Titinius.
Dr G 54:08 Indeed. So the last category is the citizen score. Was this a good time to be a citizen of Rome?
Dr Rad 54:17 Sounds pretty panicky. Sounds pretty sweaty.
Dr G 54:19 It sounds like everybody's scared and rushing to the temples, doing some prayers, rushing to the walls, being like is the enemy at the gate. Oh God!
Dr Rad 54:31 They're keeping eagle eyes out. They're definitely feeling paranoid and not unjustifiably, whilst we're laughing at the fact that this rumors got completely out of hand. You can understand why they would think that if the Romans have just had a catastrophic defeat, it's not out of the question that the remnants of the Faliscans and Capenantes will eventually make their way there. I mean, why wouldn't they, in some senses?
Dr G 54:57 Well, exactly. So there is a justifiable fear that the army that has just won over the Romans on the field will proceed to then March on Rome. And really, Romans sort of set themselves up for something like that, because if you've been besieging one of your neighbors for the last decade, maybe you've given your neighbors some ideas about how they could treat you.
Dr Rad 55:25 So look, it might be mythologized. Maybe the Romans were actually in the bath with a cup of tea and a scented candle burning, and they weren't panicked at all. But even if we strip away the Homeric elements, I think it would make sense for the Romans to be feeling the pinch right about now.
Dr G 55:43 Definitely. So, in this sense, and particularly when we also have to account for the facts that people who had died on the battlefield also very likely to have been Roman citizens of some kind, then this is not great, not great news at all.
Dr Rad 55:59 So is that a zero?
Dr G 56:00 I think so.
Dr Rad 56:02 Wow. We really built up this episode, and now the Romans are here with just one out of 50 Golden Eagle.
Dr G 56:07 We are not done with 396.
Dr Rad 56:10 No, I was gonna say, I feel like we should maybe add that one eagle to the other eagles that they may or may not win for themselves down the track.
Dr G 56:22 Ooo that is, that's a big call. I think we can argue about that one when we get there.
Dr Rad 56:26 All right, all right. I look forward to it, Dr G.
Dr G 56:30 Likewise. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com – We offer a huge thank you to you, if you're one of our illustrious Patreon supporters, if you enjoy the show, we'd love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We're on Ko-Fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon, of course. Our latest book, ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire', is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don't want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome's glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire'.
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out some of the suggested readings. This is a huge topic, and we did not get the chance to discuss issues that leave less of a physical trace, such as blindness or muteness, nor did we touch on disabilities that might have arisen from disease or mental illness.
This vase by the ‘Clinic Painter' is one of Dr Debby Sneed's favourites. It may show two men in a courtship pose, but this is still debated by scholars. One of the men is a dwarf or little person. Photograph by Maria Daniels, courtesy of the Musée du Louvre, January 1992.
[00:00:00]
Dr Rad
Hello, there! You are in for a treat and you're going to be hearing a special episode from The Partial Historians. Today we're going to be talking to Dr. Debby Sneed. Dr. Debby Sneed is a lecturer in Classics at California State University. She has a PhD in Archaeology from UCLA. And a MA in Classics from the University of Colorado, at Boulder, as well as a BA in English and History from the University of Wyoming. She has worked on archaeological projects in Greece, Italy, Ethiopia, and the American Southwest.
[00:00:46] And she's currently working on a monograph about disability accommodations in ancient Greece. She's got some publications that are also forthcoming. So keep your eyes peeled for that. But in the meantime, here is our episode with Dr. Debby Sneed.
[00:01:09]
Welcome to a special edition of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G
And I'm Dr. G. And we are super excited today to be sitting down with Dr. Debby Sneed. And we're going to be looking at disability in ancient Greece, and potentially also, as a side note, a little bit of ancient Rome coming from us.
[00:01:31]
Dr Rad
Absolutely. You know, we can't resist that and I must admit, this is a topic that, I'm going to admit full disclosure. I apologize to both of you. I have never really thought that much about disability in the ancient world, which is actually doubly shameful because, on a personal note, I'm just going to throw it out there. I actually have a condition which means that I'm gradually losing my hearing. And I've actually lost quite a lot. I wear hearing aids now. And so, I suppose, I have a very mild disability, which, I'm really lucky, it doesn't affect my life too much at this point in time. But it's something that I suppose has been coming more and more into my life as I lose more hearing.
[00:02:08] So I'm really fascinated to get talking about disability in the ancient world and what that entails.
Dr G
Yeah, so it's fantastic to have you here, Debby, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here to talk about this.
Dr Rad
So like dive straight in with, uh, with one of our first questions, which is exactly how do you define or classify a disability in your research?
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:02:30] This is a really difficult question for a lot of reasons. And one of them has to do with a lot of the attitudes that people bring to the topic of disability in the modern period. Um, but for me, in my research, I focus specifically on physical disabilities. My work is primarily interdisciplinary, which means I look at material and evidence from a lot of different fields and reconcile them in various ways.
[00:02:52] So I look at not just literary evidence and artistic evidence, but also physical remains. So I studied human remains as well. And so in [00:03:00] order to do this correctly, I tried to look at things that could potentially be archaeologically recovered, uh, in that is specifically physical disabilities. So I look at things like cleft palate, missing limbs, short stature, stuff like that.
Dr Rad
[00:03:16] Maybe just building on that. Can you tell us a little bit about this, the sites that you've looked at in your research when you've been looking at the human remains or do you, or do they – the human remains – come to you?
Dr Debby Sneed
Well, the human remains come to me. I am not a bio-archaeologist, so I rely on the work and the reports that are filed by people who are skeletal archaeologists, osteoarchaeologist, bio-archaeologists.
[00:03:38] And so I am beholden to who's doing work where. And so I have used things like, uh, there's a lot of great work done from cemeteries in Northern Greece, specifically Pydna, for example, Amphipolis, um, a lot of great work being done from cemeteries and deposits in Athens. But also in places like, Thebes.
[00:03:58] Um, and so it just sort [00:04:00] of depends on what's available and who's doing the analysis. And if they're asking the kinds of questions that will help me in identifying who is potentially disabled and what we can say about it.
Dr Rad
Absolutely. And so roughly how many people do you think would have been classified as disabled in the ancient world?
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:04:20] It's kind of an impossible question for a lot of reasons. Uh, first of all, there's not really a category of the disabled in ancient Greece. So now we have sort of legal definitions as included, as well as societal definitions of what is disability, who is disabled, but that just didn't exist in the ancient world.
[00:04:38] So even if the ancient Greeks did keep, sort of records of things like this, they wouldn't have used disability as a category for keeping track of the population. Second of all, disability is, it's really fluid as a concept, right? So you can be disabled for a period of time and then become cured or well, or something like that.
[00:04:57] Um, you could also be non-disabled for most of [00:05:00] your life and then become disabled. You could be involved in a battle, for example, where you become injured and it leads to a permanent disability, old age leads to disability. So right now, the World Health Organization estimates that about 15% of the world's population is disabled.
In the United States [00:05:18] the estimates are somewhere between 20 to 25% of the population. Uh, it's actually the largest minority group in the United States. So these are modern statistics and it's not possible to sort of import those to the ancient world. The reasons that people are disabled, how people become disabled, and how we classify disability would have been quite different.
[00:05:37] But we can probably guess, based on a variety of evidence, that a great number of people in the ancient world either lived with a disability from birth or became disabled or interacted on a very close basis, either as a family member or a close community member with somebody who was disabled.
Dr Rad
Yeah, it's actually something that I suddenly realized how horrifying it [00:06:00] really was. [00:06:00] How many people must have had to live in discomfort or just with constant inconvenience in the ancient world. Because when you think about it, when I was looking at the research, I really liked this idea that, you could really only classify someone as having a disability, if the society they live in doesn't really help them out anyway. [00:06:20] And it doesn't meet their needs in some ways. So for example, I wouldn't classify myself as having a disability per se, because I have access to hearing aids because I live in a society and I have a job where I can afford them. But in a different context, I might be, I might be classified that way because I wouldn't have access to an aid, which allows me to do my work.
[00:06:39] And when you think about the lack of technology and all that kind of stuff available in the ancient world, it is really quite staggering, isn't it?
Dr Debby Sneed
So, what you're describing there is actually called the social model of disability. So people who are engaged in studies of disability in the past and present, people involved in disability activism, operate – at least tend to operate – according to different models of disability. [00:07:00] And the social model of disability is one that is very prevalent in disability studies, but it’s specifically organized against what's called the medical model of disability.
The medical model is something that situates the problem of disability in the body of the disabled person. It says you are the problem. [00:07:17] And in order to overcome your disability, you need to overcome your own body, right? And so this is where treatments and cures and rehabilitation specifically focus on correcting the person with the disability so that they can function in a quote unquote, “normal” society. Right.
The social model of disability is kind of the opposite of that, right? [00:07:37] So what the social model of disability does is, sort of like what early feminist scholarship did with sex and gender where sex is considered sort of a biological fact and gender was something that was imposed on to sex, right? So the social model of disability does something like that with impairment and disability.
[00:07:56] Impairment being so the biological reality of a body [00:08:00], so missing limbs, loss of hearing, deafness, uh, vision impairments, things like that. And disability is something that's imposed externally on the impaired body. So disability is then a problem of society and not a problem of the individual and correcting disability means disability accommodations.
[00:08:19] It means creating an environment that allows the impaired people to survive. Not just survive, but exist and thrive and participate in society.
Dr G
If we're thinking about ancient Greece and how these models might be playing out, because obviously even though ancient Greek people themselves might not be thinking in terms of these models, they might still be useful ways of looking and thinking about the evidence that's left behind.
[00:08:45] How would you say that you see these kinds of models present in the evidence from the ancient world?
Dr Debby Sneed
Well, some of these models are in my own research, keeping in mind that, for example, the social model of disability is not without its problems. So there's [00:09:00] some really great work done by, for example, Tom Shakespeare, on the problems of the social model of disability, talking about how it kind of treats the impairment as if it's irrelevant, right? [00:09:08] Um, but that's actually not the reality for a lot of people with disabilities; that, while there are problems that are created by society, impairment in and of itself is not neutral, right? It is something that they live with. It is something that affects their experience of the world, their interactions with people.
[00:09:25] And so, um, there's a lot of movement away from the social model, not just to amend the social model, but actually to take a completely different approach. One of the things that I really like about the social model of disability is its emphasis on contingency. And what that means is that, um, what is considered disabling, what impairments are considered disabling is going to change depending on the context.
[00:09:47] And so what I do in my research is I try to look at accommodations for disability, so ways that I can see that society changed to account for the fact of impairment, um, and [00:10:00] use that as a kind of metric for understanding how the ancient Greeks thought about people with disabilities. So, um, not just looking at the instances in myth or in tragedy, for example, where we might have comments about people who are disabled, but looking instead at the structures of society to see how they changed or didn't change depending on the needs of the population.
[00:10:20] It's specifically focused on, um, things that were intended or could have benefited people with disabilities.
Dr Rad
It's been really fascinating actually, to look at some of your work. I believe that you've done quite a lot of study on the use of, uh, ramps to try and help people access temples or sanctuaries and that sort of thing [00:10:39] in ancient Greece, if they had some sort of mobility impairment.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. So this is an article that, that I wrote on ramps specifically, focused on ramps and healing sanctuaries in ancient Greece. So ramps are a kind of feature that we're really familiar with, especially in a type of Greek architecture called Doric architecture, [00:11:00] which we primarily situated in the Peloponnese, even though it's not completely confined to the Peloponnese.
[00:11:06] So we don't really see a lot of ramps. I think a recent study of – a sort of catalogue of ramps in the ancient Greek world – found fewer than twenty, like total ramps on temple buildings, specifically in the Greek world. So that is not a lot of ramps or a lot more temples than twenty. And so when I was looking at the distribution, however, of those ramps, um, and looking at not just temple buildings, but also secondary and subsidiary buildings at sanctuaries, the healing sanctuary of Asclepius at Epidaurus has eleven built ramps.
[00:11:37] So if I consider the fact –
Dr G
Oh wow
Dr Debby Sneed
– yeah. If you consider that most sanctuaries have no ramps or one ramp, the fact that this one sanctuary has eleven ramps needs to be explained in some way. And so I moved to then to think, okay, how could we explain this?
So the traditional explanations for ramps are having to do with animals. [00:11:57] You know, that this would be an easier way, uh, [00:12:00] for animals to enter the buildings. Except that animals didn't enter the buildings. And so that doesn't really work as an explanation. Animals that were sacrificed were sacrificed outside of the temple. And you can't really imagine bringing a bowl, for example, into a temple with all of this, the furniture, all of the dedications that were housed in there.
[00:12:19] Uh, other explanations, um, include, uh, sort of wheeling dedications in and out. So if you imagine people dedicate stone statues, for example, or marble statues, those are very heavy. So maybe you would want to use a ramp so that you could wheel it in and out.
However, there are specific treasury buildings in ancient Greek sanctuaries. [00:12:38] We can think of the treasuries at Delphi, for example, or at Olympia. And the explicit function of these very small buildings was to house really expensive and heavy dedications. And these buildings never have ramps. And so if ramps facilitated the movement of these heavy dedications, we would expect them to be on buildings whose only job was to hold these dedications.
Dr G
[00:13:00] Yeah, the last thing you'd want to do is, like, wheel something in there and then make it really easy for somebody to wheel it back out again.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, exactly. So possibly they had sort of temporary ramps for those purposes. I have no idea. And so when you look at the fact that most of the explanations that have been [00:13:17] put forth for ramps at sanctuaries just don't work, right. And then also look at how many ramps there are at healing sanctuaries, which were specifically marketed to people with disabilities. It just sort of fits together into this really great picture of a sort of intentional purpose, an intentional building of these ramps to assist the pilgrims who came to the healing sanctuaries in search of healing.
Dr Rad
[00:13:40] So I’m really curious to ask, exactly what do you think – from your studies – life would have been like for people with the kind of disabilities that you study in the ancient world? because, I mean, I know that's a massive question because there's just a huge amount, as you mentioned before, of conditions and just, you know, [00:14:00] factors like age that could be what's causing someone to have some sort of mobility impairment. But can you tell us anything about what you think life would've been like from what you've looked at?
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:14:10] Yeah, sure. I don't think that it's, it's another kind of impossible question. Um, life in the ancient world for anybody disabled or not disabled was difficult, right? So we tend to think about ancient Greek life, we think about philosophers, Aristotle and Plato. We think about generals. Uh, we think about the names of people that we can think of. [00:14:31] And, uh, those were not the typical people who are living in ancient Greece. These are very privileged, very elite men. And so, for the most part, people are engaged in subsistence agriculture, right? They're sort of living harvest to harvest. Life was just difficult in general. People worked all the time. They were constantly engaged in all sorts of things.
[00:14:51] Um, so this idea of a sort of easy life in the ancient world is based on a very small segment of the population. But even when you're thinking about that, [00:15:00] we have evidence for people with disabilities in both classes of people. So among elite men, as well as among the more general population.
And it's impossible to say what life was like. [00:15:09] It really depended on somebody's status on their gender, on their wealth, et cetera. But we have evidence for disabled slaves. We have evidence for disabled generals. We have evidence for disabled Kings, disabled women, women who sort of gave birth to Kings, right? Who were themselves, the women were themselves disabled.
[00:15:28] So you can't really pinpoint a specific thing because there's something that Martha Rose has talked a lot. She's a big, big person in the study of disability in ancient Greece. One of the things that she's really emphasized is what she calls the community model of disability. Where it didn't really depend on the sort of functional limitations of your body, but instead on your functional ability within the community. [00:15:49] And so everything was negotiated on a sort of individual basis. What could you do? What couldn't you do? Could that be accommodated? Who are you? Are you expected to be contributing in one way and you [00:16:00] can't et cetera? It just depends on so many different factors that, um, it's really not possible to say what life would have been like in the generic sense for somebody with a disability.
Dr G
[00:16:10] And that's really interesting as well, if we're thinking about just how many ramps are associated with that sanctuary to Asclepius as well, because it seems like that feeds into a bigger idea about, well, how do we go about looking after the people in our community who potentially are suffering from disabilities? [00:16:30] How do we negotiate that and how do we come together as a community to try and solve that problem?
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, this is one of the, there was a lot of interesting feedback that I got about that article. And a lot of it was just incredulity at the idea that the ancient Greeks would have given conscious thought to people with disabilities.
[00:16:48] But I find that to be a very surprising reaction. Ancient Greeks had a God of healing. It's not objectively true that every society will have a God of healing. So the Greeks [00:17:00] had a God, Asclepius, who was dedicated to healing other gods focused on healing as well, okay. So it's not, it's not a given that they'll have a God of healing.
[00:17:07] It's then not a given that they will build elaborate sanctuaries to that God. Okay, so this is another step of sort of cultural or societal choice that they're making. And once you make the choice that you want to have a sanctuary, that people who are ill, people who are disabled, people who are injured, that they can come here to seek healing. [00:17:28] Once you've made that decision, it's not a big leap to assume that the ancient Greeks would have considered what would make that effective to that purpose.
So in much the same way that the sanctuary of Zeus at Olympia, which hosted these huge athletic games every four years – and sort of original Olympics – had athletic facilities, right? [00:17:45] So it had gyms. It had places for people to stay who came for the games. It had all sorts of athletic facilities because they hosted the athletic games. Sanctuaries where they did ritual dining, where dining was a really important function of your ritual practice [00:18:00], they had dining rooms. Sanctuaries where water played an important element, were built near water sources, right?
[00:18:07] It's not, it's not sort of radical to think that if they built a sanctuary specifically intended to serve people with disabilities, that they would consider what would actually be effective for that purpose. It's more of a practical decision, um, than an ideological one.
So we tend to think about disability accommodations, ideologically, that we are this progressive society, that we care about people who are vulnerable, et cetera. [00:18:32] So we gray up to the privilege of accommodation, but for the Greeks, I think it was really just a practical choice.
Dr Rad
Yeah. I think looking at the literature and thinking about, as we said before, how, how much people must have either experienced disability themselves in varying ways, or have had close contact with someone who had a disability. [00:18:54] It seems that they – people with disabilities – must have been fairly [00:19:00] integrated into society. It's not like they were necessarily, you know, shunned or anything like that. And, as you say, I mean, you look at Philip the Second of Macedon, you look at the emperor Claudius, there were people of high status as well who had, um, various impairments. [00:19:13] Although we can't always be sure with Claudius exactly what the, you know, what was going on there. But yeah, there's definitely a level of integration and practicality to the fact that these people, they are still working and they are getting married and they still have families. Some of them need families in order to have someone to help look after them and to help them maneuver the world.
Dr G
[00:19:34] And this seems to run counter to, like, one of the big sort of assumptions that people make about ancient Greece, which is that they just abandoned children on the side of the road. And this is something that gets repeated a lot. And, and the assumption being that children who were born, who didn't fit the criteria of normalcy in ancient Greece would have been left to die. [00:19:56] And this would have reduced the percentage of people potentially with disability [00:20:00] in society at large.
I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, I definitely can. I have an article coming out on this topic this year, actually in the journal Hesperia. Yeah. So it's interesting because if you open any textbook, if you Google the topic, you'll see very confidently stated that the ancient Greeks killed infants who were born with, [00:20:20] uh, noticeable physical deformities or disabilities. And this is based on, like almost no evidence, which is really interesting. It's, it's a myth, right?
So I present this in my article that I think that this is just a false, a false thing. And not only do the evidence that people put forth, does it not work to support this argument, but we also have a lot of evidence that argues against this, right? [00:20:43] That demonstrates people giving extraordinary care to infants who had more needs than other infants. So infants already require a great deal of care, right? So this is already, they need a lot of attention. They already need more care than an adult does, for example.
And [00:21:00] so. Um, you know, this is one of the things to keep in mind, right, this idea of sort of an intersectional approach to disability, that how old someone is really affects how they're regarded in terms of disability, right? So we don't expect adults to require a lot of care. And so somebody who does require a lot of care, deviates more from what's expected or what's typical, than an infant who already requires a lot of care and a disabled infant who might require a little bit more care.
[00:21:27] The gap between those things is much smaller than it would necessarily be for an adult, for example. Um, and so the evidence that people have for this practice of infanticide is, uh, primarily Plutarch, and Plutarch is a Roman author. And he says that the Spartan King Lycurgus instituted a law where parents brought their infants to a council of elders who evaluated the children and decided which ones should be raised and which ones should be killed.
[00:21:56] And it specifically mentioned that infants who are disabled are deformed as [00:22:00] specifically the word should be put out or exposed. Um, there's no other evidence for this practice. So we have a bunch of other sources closer to the time of Lycurgus, if he was even real. People like Xenaphon, who were talking about the Spartans, were discussing Spartan law who were specifically talking about Lycurgus and no one else mentions this law.
[00:22:20] So Plutarch is the only one. It’s very weak evidence, especially because Plutarch's starts his, his sort of biography of Lycurgus by saying, uh, something like concerning Lycurgus the law-giver there is, it's not possible to say something that is undisputed, right? And so, um, it's pretty shaky evidence to use.
[00:22:41] And then we also have a couple of prescriptions by Plato and Aristotle, the fourth century BCE philosophers, where they say that, um, they have these sort of utopian texts and they outline what their ideal society would look like. And both of them specifically mentioned disabled infants and about how they should either be sort of hidden away [00:23:00] or exposed.
[00:23:01] But these are utopian texts, right? Utopia is not real life. And so it just doesn't really work to use that. So, there's a modern philosopher named Peter Singer, who is probably one of the most famous philosophers and who is hated among the disability community, because he is similarly eugenicist in his thoughts, right.
[00:23:20] This idea that, um, we should just like, sort of erase disability if we could. Um, it would be like taking Peter Singer and using him as evidence for modern sort of American society, right. And saying like, “Oh look, this very famous philosopher thinks that this should happen. Therefore it was happening,” right. [00:23:38] When we know in reality, it's not happening.
Dr G
And indeed there's a lot of systems in place in order to facilitate the support of people, uh, who have a disability or an impairment of some kind. And so the idea that somehow to erase that out of existence, um, it's almost offensive at that point.
Dr Rad
And I think also looking at the [00:24:00] evidence, um, from the Roman world as well as the Greek world. And I think you kind of mentioned this as well, uh, in some of your other responses, uh, some of the disabilities that people suffered from were things that they didn't necessarily have at birth. So obviously, as you say, life was really tough in the ancient world. And so people developed forms of disability because they didn't have enough nutrition as children, or because they were forced to perform heavy labour from a very young age.
[00:24:29] People also get injured. People get hurt in battle. People age and, therefore, just develop disabilities. I mean, there, there are certain things that you couldn't erase, even if you wanted to at birth. You know, lots of these children were probably born healthy and then became disabled or impaired later on.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:24:48] Yeah, definitely. And we have plenty of evidence even for disabled infants. So there are medical texts, there's one Hippocratic treatise, uh, data to the late fifth or fourth century BCE, it's called On Joints. [00:25:00] And that author talks about a few things. He talks, for example, about infants who were born with clubfoot and, uh, this is a very common. [00:25:07] Very common. It's not an uncommon disability or impairment, sort of congenital impairment in the modern period. Um, and he has lengthy treatments that he outlines for how to, and he says, you know, it's not a problem, right. And he outlines the treatment for clubfoot, how you can sort of correct it. And regardless he says, there are special shoes that people with this can use that provide additional support to that foot.
[00:25:30] He talks about infants who were born with what he calls a weasel arms. Um, so I don't know if you've seen a weasel, they'd have very short arms relative to their body size. And so this is infants who are born with something like a shrunken arm. It could be any number of conditions, right. And he says, it's no problem.
[00:25:46] He said, he lists the tools that these people can use when they grow older. Um, he says they perform equally well sometimes. Almost as well with their sort of affected arm as they do with their unaffected arm. He [00:26:00] explicitly says, this is no problem whatsoever for people who are born with this congenital deformity.
[00:26:06] Um, we have things like these feeding models from the ancient Greek world. There are these really cute little cups that are sort of small. They’re kind of globular with a handle on one side and then a really narrow spout coming out of it. And there's a lot of, um, a lot of speculation about what these cups are used for.
[00:26:23] And, in my article, I discuss what I think is convincingly that these cups were used to assist infants who were born with things like cleft palate, other oral facial deformities, um, or were just who were just so sick, um, or weak that they couldn't suckle, right, at the breast. And so these are active accommodations for infants who required additional care.
Breastfeeding was the norm. [00:26:49] And so I think that these cups provided additional levels of support for infants who needed it, right.
Dr Rad
Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think it is just so fascinating that [00:27:00] once you start looking, you just, you just find all these pieces of evidence that I had no idea until I started thinking about it, just how much there actually was.
[00:27:10] And, um, I was looking at some evidence for Rome about some four skeletons that were found near the Via Collatina. And the fact that these, uh, you know, three out of the four people in this particular burial site had had the care of a burial, and like not a flash one, and you know, it wasn't amazing, but some of these people had extraordinary issues to deal with, you know, some spine curvatures.
And one of the skeletons [00:27:36] was a woman who only had one tooth. And she must have had someone helping her or looking after her in some way. And then someone who saw to her burial. Um, and so it's just, it's just so fascinating that when you start looking for the evidence, these various pieces come out of the woodwork.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:27:52] Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon, uh, even in the modern period. So I think it's very difficult to find, for example, a novel, any [00:28:00] novel, just pick up something and read it and not find disability in there, right? So a lot of people, if you challenge them, they say, you know, well, disability just doesn't show up in things.
[00:28:10] If you challenge them to think about their favourite movie or their favourite book, right, it starts to become apparent that there's disability everywhere. And the same is true in the ancient world. I don't think that I have come across a single genre of literature where disability does not feature – sometimes quite prominently – in the ancient world.
[00:28:27] There's even a type of poetry that is disabled in the sense that, um, it's called choliambic verse, and that's a “limping” verse. So the word “choliambic” comes from the word χωλός in Greek, which means “lame” or “limping”. So where that's often applied to Hephaestus, for example. And so it has to do with the type of meter.
[00:28:47] And it was actually referred to in the ancient world as this kind of “limping meter” because of the way that it was so heavy across the page, right. And so you see it everywhere and it's in the archaeological evidence, it's in the literary evidence, it’s in the iconographical evidence. It's everywhere.
[00:29:01] And so, the next question becomes, well, if the evidence is everywhere, why hasn't other – why haven’t other people – talked about this, right? And I think that that has to do with, just sort of the, the modern makeup of the field. So who are scholars? What is acceptable to study in the ancient world?
This is why, sort of, as a part of sort of an adjunct of my work [00:29:23], um, I tried to get more people with disabilities involved in the study of classics, in the study of archaeology. And part of that is doing things like this podcast, right? Trying to tell people: this is a thing. You're allowed to study it. You're allowed to ask questions about it. You're allowed to look for evidence for it.
[00:29:40] Um, this is a perfectly acceptable field of study because, you're right, the evidence is everywhere.
Dr G
Yeah, and I think from the reading that I've been doing around this subject, in the lead up to this conversation, um, it seems that, like, part of what has been a real boon to this kind of study is the ability for us to use [00:30:00] searchable databases and being able to do keyword searches and [00:30:05] trying to draw out, um, the way in which ancient languages talk about disability and impairment, and then trying to filter that through the systems that we now have for being able to look at evidence. Because one of the things that tends to happen to students when you're going through the standard model for being taught classics and ancient history is you're given a text and you have to read it quite closely.
[00:30:29] But actually what we're looking for is really broad – and maybe really quite slim – mentions of things about everyday life, which, for a lot of people, they're not reading the right texts or they're coming into contact with myth and higher literature, but they're not coming into contact with things that might give them a sense of the every day.
[00:30:48] And, I think that element of the way that we study history is actually changing the nature of the sorts of things that we can get out of it as well.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. But even [00:31:00] that has limitations, right? So when you form a database, I think specifically, for example, if the Beasley Archive – the pottery database that you can find online and sort of search the corpus of Greek vase painting – one of the things that's really difficult is the search terms that are available are the ones that the creators of the database decided were relevant.
[00:31:19] So, for example, you can't search for crutches. “Crutch” is not an acceptable search term. And so you have to think of synonyms that other people might have used in order to categorize these objects. And so it makes it really difficult sometimes to use those databases because they're created by people and it depends on what they thought was relevant in their creation of that database.
Dr Rad
[00:31:43] I actually think that's quite interesting. Just thinking about the, as you said, the vase painting and the artistic representations, because when I was doing a bit of reading about Greece and Rome, it seems that that might be one of the areas of difference with these two societies. In that, whilst the Romans do certainly have, [00:32:00] obviously, you know, you can look at the bodies from Pompeii and Herculaneum and you know, there are skeletons, and you can also look at textual references to various types of impairments. [00:32:09] Uh, when it comes to artistic representation, the Romans tend to be quite realistic with someone's face, but then have quite idealized bodies. Whereas, I believe, if you look at the Greek record, there are, I think it's a bit more common to have artistic representations of disabilities due to the kind that you study with like the lower limbs and that kind of thing.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:32:31] Um, I think it depends. So, um, there's some really great studies on this. So Lisa Trentin, for example, has a book on hunchbacks and Hellenistic and Roman art. It's really interesting. There is Véronique Dasen, who has a book on dwarves in Egypt and Greece, but she talks a little bit about what would be sort of more Hellenistic depictions of dwarves.
[00:32:51] And I guess you're right.. But the Greeks have their own idealizations. So if you look at Greek statues, we have a very, idealized version. And a [00:33:00] lot of vase painting, um, is similarly idealized, but I think you're right that the vase painting as a specific medium offers opportunities for visualization, that we just don't see in Rome. [00:33:11] Um, so we do see a lot of depictions of things like that.
One of my favourites is, uh, this little vase by what's called the Clinic Painter. So I actually had a reproduction of this vase made when I finished my PhD –
Dr Rad
Oh amazing!
Dr Debby Sneed
– Uh, yeah, it was in the ancient Corinth, there was an artist in who does sort of reproductions. [00:33:29] And so I commissioned him to make one. It shows what's traditionally interpreted as a doctor's clinic, which is why this artist is called the Clinic Painter, and it has a bunch of men on it. Some of them are being, uh, sort of, you know, given treatments by a doctor who’s seated. But then there's also this really weird scene of a man, an adult man, he's bearded, he's standing, he's clothed, he's leaning on his staff and he's in a sort of romantic pose with another figure [00:33:54] who's a dwarf, a little person. He was also an adult man, and it's in a sort of [00:34:00] courtship pose. But we have some issues. I don't know how to interpret this vase at all. I just like looking at it because it just is so interesting the way that this gets depicted as a sort of courtship scene in this otherwise doctor's office, right. [00:34:13] It's just sort of a really weird scene.
Dr Rad
That does sound very interesting and confusing.
Dr G
It sounds like it's got a lot of potential for interpretation. This might drive your research until you can find a way into what is the interpretation of the scene.
Dr Rad
And well it actually, has actually raised one of my, one of my other questions that came up when I was looking at some research.
[00:34:33] So I know that in some of the Roman depictions that we do have of people with disabilities, it seems as though – although we can obviously never be sure with artistic representation – it seems as though some of the artwork we do have, which shows people with the kinds of impairments that might be intended to shock or even make people laugh.
[00:34:55] And certainly one of the most famous texts about someone with very well-known [00:35:00] disabilities is, of course, Seneca's work about the emperor. Claudius. And how he's made fun of when he tries to join the rest of the gods after his death. Can you speak at all to the way that people might be treated cruelly or might be made the butt of jokes [00:35:15] if they have some sort of impairment in the ancient world?
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. And you will definitely see more of that in Rome. So the way that disability in Greece versus Rome is treated is very different. And I don't think, um, I personally don't think that it's useful to discuss them together except comparatively. In Rome you see a lot of what I would call fetishization of disability.
[00:35:36] So it is treated, uh, with shock with awe, uh, I mean that sexually as well. So it was sort of sexual fetishization as well. Um, we have stories about, uh, Uh, what is it called? Like a monster market, right? Where slaves with physical disabilities would bring a higher price. Right, so we have all of this in Rome in a way that I just find, [00:36:00] so, um, I don't know how to word it. So different than what we see in Greece.
So in Greece, people get made fun of for things all the time, right. But disability doesn't seem to be a category. So an individual might be made fun of, for aspects of his physical appearance. We can think of all this sympotic poetry where people are, uh, making fun of each other for being ugly or, you know, having sort of non-ideal bodies, et cetera.
[00:36:24] But in Rome, it's just a completely different beast, where it's just something that ends up being the focus. And then other things are sort of put on top of that, right. So the sort of physical disability is used in a way to explain other aspects of somebody's personality or character, which is what I think you have going on in things like Seneca. That the disability is used almost metaphorically to refer to other aspects. This is why Claudius so difficult is because it's hard to separate what is the real – whatever is actually real – um, with the sort of metaphoric uses of disability in Roman literature.
Dr Rad
[00:36:59] Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. There is an element, uh, that seems to be coming through, um, philosophical works like from the Stoics where you wouldn't necessarily make fun of someone just because they have an impairment. But if that impairment is the result of “bad choices” and a “disreputable lifestyle”, then it's open season.
[00:37:20] And Claudius, of course, with his wives and freedmen and his love of drink and food and all that kind of stuff. It's his lifestyle, which they seem to be having a problem with. And so he's kind of fair game.
Dr G
But it's certainly the case that in ancient Rome, they sort of see an intimate connection between the physicality of the person and the character of the person.
Dr Rad
[00:37:40] Definitely.
Dr G
And that, and it sounds to me, Debby, that what you're saying is that this union is less the case when we're looking at ancient Greek evidence.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, of course it's not absent entirely, but it is very different the way that disability is treated. We see a lot of different ways. So, you know, it's not irrelevant that one of the twelve Olympian [00:38:00] gods, Hephaestus, is disabled in ancient Greece, so that when he gets to Rome, when he's Vulcan, his disability is almost entirely erased.
[00:38:07] You know, I think Greece has just a very different situation. They're treating things differently. Their culture is different, right. This is that sort of contingency of disability. And this is, this is why – so a lot of people will think about disability in the past, and they just sort of lump everything in the pre-modern period together. [00:38:22] That life was hard, therefore, it must've been harder for people with disabilities. There's this kind of – we think that people with disabilities don't have any inherent value. And that they're only given value in a modern society, where we’re rich enough to afford, and we've got these high moral values that will grant, you know, rights to people with disabilities.
[00:38:42] So we just assume that if you were to rewind the clock, that that wouldn't be the case in the past, but in fact, it's not necessarily, not the case. It's not necessarily the case. It's just a different situation and deserves its own treatment. And so some of our earliest studies of disability in the ancient period in the ancient [00:39:00] Mediterranean sort of looked at sort of the Greco-Roman understanding of disability.
[00:39:04] But I think that if you were to distinguish them, I think it would be an excellent case study for how exactly the Greeks Romans are different. It would be a great way of explaining the differences in the cultures so that people stopped just eliding them into the same thing.
Dr Rad
That's true. I mean, I actually hadn't, again, I'd never really stopped to think about this before, but the Roman naming system where they got, you know, the, the three barrel name, at least, sometimes more.
[00:39:28] I never stopped to think about the fact, even though we often talk about the meaning of some of those names, um, how many of them actually refer to some sort of physical defect. Apparently 44% of Roman cognominia refer to physical defects of some kind, which is just amazing. And it's built right into, you know, their naming system.
[00:39:49] It just blew my mind when I saw exactly how high that was.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah. It's really just such an interesting part of the Roman conception of disability, how it's just sort of there [00:40:00] and ever present and can be used in this way. It's one of the reasons that I actually really struggle to talk about disability in Rome is because I feel like [00:40:09], uh, it just requires such an intimate knowledge of Roman society. One that I just don't have coming from the Greek, like studying the Greek world. That even though I know a lot about disability and how to study disability, um, just looking at statistics like that, looking at the stories that we have, looking at figures like Claudius, it just makes it so difficult to understand, unless you can situate it appropriately in the context of Roman history.
[00:40:34] I don't think that the same person can do both, if that makes sense.
Dr Rad
No, I completely hear you in terms of the level of expertise that must be required. So let's bring it back to ancient Greece as we move towards the end. Just before we finish up, I'd love to hear about some of the particular bodies or cases that you have looked at in your career.
[00:40:53] Can you tell us about some of the most interesting cases that you've come across?
Dr Debby Sneed
Definitely. The one that I love. You know, I [00:41:00] don't have answers for a lot of these figures that I'd bring up. I'm still struggling with exactly how to situate them. But one of my favourites is the speaker. We don't have his name, but he's a speaker and a law court speech by the orator Lysius. Lysius is a very well-known logographer, I guess, from the fourth century BCE, he wrote speeches for people.
[00:41:20] He was a metic, so he was a sort of a resident of Athens, but not a citizen. And, so he wrote speeches for other people. And in one of them, it is for a man who has been accused of welfare fraud, essentially. So Athens had a pension system for people with disabilities. And what's interesting about this pension system is that it wasn't just for people with disabilities.
[00:41:44] It was for people who were so disabled that they couldn't work, which does a couple of things. First of all, it presumes that there are people with disabilities who could work, right? Who could. Perform and, you know, perform within the sort of labour market bringing enough money.
[00:42:00] And so we have this guy who has been accused of receiving it fraudulently. And so this speech is his defense and what's interesting is that he's disabled. He talks about how he walks with two crutches. And so the argument isn't that he's not disabled, it's that he's lying about his financial need. And so, you just get this really great characterization of somebody, sort of in his own words, quote unquote, it was written by Lysias, right.
[00:42:26] So it's kind of hard to say whose words we have here. And there are a lot of open questions about this speech. But you get this great characterization of somebody who is disabled and we get a great understanding of what disability might have meant. He talks about how, you know, yes, he owns a shop.
[00:42:43] So he doesn't tell us what kind of business this shop is, which is one of the big questions, right? It seems a little shady that he's not telling us what his business is. But he says, you know, but it's not enough money to bring anyone in. He says, I don't have a slave to help me with my work. I don't have children who can care for me in my old age.
[00:42:59] And I'm just getting older. So my disabilities are compounding. And he talks about all of this. He talks about how, you know, he has to borrow other people's horses to get around. So when his distances are too great for his crutches to take him there, you know, he has to take a sort of equine transport in order to do it.
[00:43:16] Um, so it's just this really great speech. And I think that it is Lysias 24, if anyone wants to read it. It's such a great way to start thinking about this topic of disability in ancient Greece, because this is probably the closest that we get hearing the words of somebody who identifies as disabled.
Dr G
[00:43:34] Mmm, I think this is a fascinating piece of evidence actually. And the fact that we can glean from this, that there is, uh, a system set up of support, uh, for people who fall within a particular category of disability as well, I think is fascinating. And speaks to something really particular about the structure of ancient Greek society that, perhaps a lot of people coming to the ancient world [00:44:00] and haven't considered at all.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, and I mean, this is specifically Athens, right. We can't say what anyone else would have thought about this exactly. And we have it in other evidence. So we know that at least this man was eligible for it. Uh, he has some sort of mobility impairment.
[00:44:14] We have another speech, um, by, I forget who right now, but we have another speech where somebody is blind. And receives the payments, right? So he's an older man who is blind and the payment is also listed in The Athenian Constitution that sort of pseudo-Aristotelian text, uh, sometimes referred to as the AthPol, it's a abbreviation, a reference to this pension.
[00:44:38] So it's pretty secure, right, that this is a real thing, uh, that at least in the fourth century, there was this pension system. Not charity exactly. I mean, there's some really great work by Matthew Dillon on this, I think, where he talks about how, you know, it's not specifically, uh, it's not charity, right. It's an attempt to avoid patronage in Athens, [00:45:00] right. To prevent people with disabilities who couldn't work from relying on the financial support of an individual and therefore developing a sort of allegiance to that individual instead feeling allied to the state.
Dr Rad
Absolutely. So we're getting towards the end of our time. [00:45:15] But before we finish up, I thought I would like to give you a chance to talk a little bit about some of the difficulties of this area of study. Obviously, I'm sure you face the usual problems, so, you know, not having enough source material, you know, you obviously love to have more always from the ancient world. But I imagine that looking at this particular area, there's also issues with, um, you know, sensitive language and that sort of thing as well.
[00:45:40] So would you care to speak to some of the difficulties that you've encountered in this particular area?
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. So, uh, in terms of source material, I actually think that there's a lot. Especially relative to some of the other, uh, topics that you can study in the ancient world. I think that there's a lot of evidence for disability. I, in fact, I find it almost too much to grapple with, and I hope that [00:46:00], sort of, future directions of this study, um, I sort of try to grapple with all of it together and try to reconcile the different pictures that we get from different kinds of evidence. Um, but what I would like is, what I prefer is, if people who are specialized in these different areas, in ancient warfare, in ancient children and childhood, et cetera, actually looked at disability in a theoretically engaged way, so that we have specialists [00:46:24] on these different topics, actually looking at the topic in a sensitive way.
The use of language is a difficult one. Um, you know, even if you just look at my dissertation, two recent articles to the way I discuss now, right. My terminology has changed. And part of that is, as I learned more, but part of it is also just that language is constantly developing.
[00:46:45] So “able-bodied” was a term that I think was preferred, you know, even a few years ago, but now the term for somebody who is not disabled, the preferred term is “non-disabled”, right. And so, you know, you do want to be sensitive? Uh, you'll find plenty of evidence in the [00:47:00] scholarship of people not being sensitive to terminology.
[00:47:03] So it can actually be very difficult to read some of the work on disability in the ancient Greek world. Um, because you could read a lot of, sort of ableist bias into the way that people discuss it. Um, but one of the most difficult things that I find about this subject has nothing to do with the ancient world, but actually all to do with the modern world.
[00:47:20] I get a lot of pushback on this topic. A lot of skepticism. And what's interesting about it is that the skepticism that I receive is not based in evidence, it's based on people's impressions. They just don't believe that people with disabilities in ancient Greece could have been treated with anything except disgust or disdain or pity.
[00:47:41] And so it's really difficult to convince people even based directly in the evidence that that is not the case. So when people bring up Sparta, for example, and about how, you know, Spartans had no place in their society for somebody who is disabled. And I say, well, we have this fourth century BCE [00:48:00] King Agesilaus, the Second, who is disabled.
[00:48:03] And they just excuse that example. I'm like, okay, well, I mean, there's a Spartan who was disabled, so, okay. And so the more that you bring up examples, they all get explained away as opposed to, uh, just sort of reconciling them and accepting that this is a feature and then questioning from there, what that means.
[00:48:23] So a good example is the ramps. You know, there are eleven at this healing sanctuary, whether it's a regional phenomenon is irrelevant. You still have to explain why there are eleven ramps at this one sanctuary when other ones have no ramps or just one ramp.
So you have to explain these things, but I find it really difficult to [00:48:44], sort of, get over people's initial inclination to reject the idea.
Dr Rad
Yeah, no, look, I must admit doing reading for this, I'm very grateful to have had you on the show. Not just because you've been wonderful to talk to, but it encouraged me to do reading that I wouldn't have [00:49:00] otherwise done. And a lot of the time I was looking at material that I've encountered before, like looking at the remains from Pompeii and Herculaneum, thinking about people like Claudius, thinking about, you know, philosophers like Seneca, looking at people like, you know, Philip of Macedon, and even the Twelve Tables.
[00:49:17] We've actually just done an episode on the Twelve Tables, where we had mentioned the fact that they built into that law code in Rome, the fact that if people couldn't physically get to the court, there had to be provision for them to be carried there. And I'd never stopped to think about it. And I've never really stopped to think about just how much evidence there really was in this world for people who had a variety of conditions [00:49:41], which would have made life different for them in some way.
So I am so grateful to have had you on the show to discuss this topic.
Dr G
And I think it's very revealing as well in terms of – just to jump in with a little piece of evidence that I quite like that I've encountered through this. Because one of the areas that I'm very interested in is the [00:50:00] rise of Augustus.
[00:50:00] And he institutes this law of the three children and we get a whole commentary from Ulpian on this, about what constitutes “the three children”. And it seems that at law, the decision is made that – even if the child is considered “monstrous”, and so we're not sure to what extent that means in terms of disability, but it seems like there's some sort of birth deformity at play [00:50:25] – that the mother is not to be held responsible for this and the child still counts towards the three in the eyes of the law. And that's just a little aspect of a much bigger part of history that is part of my studies that I am now thinking about because of these kinds of discussions that are happening.
[00:50:44] So I think the work that you're doing, Debby, is really important and significant for the way we approach evidence in the ancient world, across the board.
Dr Rad
And of course, Dr. G, is a Vestal fanatic. And of course, to be a Vestal at this time –
Dr G
Oh yes!
Dr Rad
as well, you [00:51:00] also have to have –
Dr G
You have to have no speech impediment to be a Vestal Virgin.
[00:51:04] That is one of the core tenants. Um, young women would not get chosen for the role if they had a speech impediment.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely, right. So religious ritual is all about repeating things in the exact appropriate way. Uh, so this is something that, um, it's not really surprising, I guess, about the Vestal Virgins and the Ulpian thing is really interesting.
[00:51:22] One of the things that is great, and that makes it difficult to study this, especially – I'm a non-disabled person, uh, which is a really important thing to bring up and I should have brought it up sooner, um, because I'm studying this as a non-disabled person.
Um, and I would like it if I was not the one, right [00:51:41], who was sort of doing this work. You know, I hope that we can get more people with disabilities involved in research, doing this research, asking these questions because, um, you know, we've known about the ramps. So back to the ramps. We've known about these forever, right?
However long we could have known that there were ramps. We've known [00:52:00] that there were ramps at some of these sanctuaries. But I think that non-disabled people, so, which includes many archaeologists, right, we sort of take for granted aspects of mobility. We don't ask how people get into buildings because we never consciously think about it. We just walk into them.
[00:52:16] Whatever's there we use. If there are stairs, we use stairs. If there is a ramp, we use a ramp. If the stairs are really tall, we just use them, right. So we just don't really think about it. And I think that if we had had more people with disabilities involved in some of these studies, I think that the question would have been asked a lot sooner.
[00:52:34] And, um, just because, you know, it's just something that people with mobility impairments are consciously aware of. And so even if disability is not the answer, it's worth asking the question and it's just something that we don't get, right. When you have only one type of person asking questions.
And this is one of – there's this really great interpretation of Oedipus.
[00:52:56] So Oedpius, the King of Thebes. So, you know, very [00:53:00] famously killed his father and married his mother. And he also solves the riddle of the Sphinx. And the riddle of the Sphinx is, you know, “what walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at midday and three legs in the evening?” And it's of course humans.
[00:53:15] So, you know, crawling as an infant, walking on two legs and then when you're an adult, and then using three legs, so two legs, plus a crutch or a cane, in old age. And there's one really interesting suggestion by David Mitchell and Sharon Snyder, who are both disability studies scholars, that Oedipus is able to answer this question because he has a mobility impairment, because when his parents sort of exposed him at birth in order to avoid his fulfillment of this prophecy, that they actually intentionally mutilated him.
[00:53:46] So they had his heels, sort of, clipped or something like that. And that, because he has this mobility impairment, when he reaches the riddle of the Sphinx, this riddle that nobody before had ever been able to answer, right. That he was uniquely [00:54:00] situated to answer that question because he was uniquely positioned to think about mobility constantly.
[00:54:06] And so, I think that this is a really important thing, is, based on, not just my non-disabled status, but based on all other aspects of my identity, I individually have limited in the kinds of things that I can come up with. The questions that I can ask the interpretations that I can come up with.
And so, one of the challenges that I have is that there just aren't people asking these questions. And so, uh, we just need a lot more people asking them and thinking about them and offering solutions, not just disabled people, right. So they don't have, it's not like these are their ancestors or something like that, but they just have this other perspective that just hasn't really been sort of appreciated in an academic context.
Dr Rad
[00:54:35] No, I think you're absolutely right. As I say, my experience is extremely limited. And as I say, I consider myself to be an extremely fortunate human being, but certainly the way that I interact with the world and things that I'm aware of, that other people aren't aware of, because I've become extremely hard of hearing.
It's really changed particularly over the last ten years. Yet, you know, just things like going out to restaurants and also I'm a teacher. [00:55:00] The kinds of rooms that I can teach in effectively. I become much more aware of sound qualities and various things like that than other people are just because I struggled so much more to understand people, even with hearing aids.
[00:55:13] Um, and it does, it does allow me to say a little bit of what you're talking about, in that, unless you've got that lived experience, you sometimes won't think of certain angles of investigations.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:55:25] And this is true of other things as well. I don't know if this is true, but I read something about, sort of this, uh, neolithic or paleolithic find that somebody found a bone and it had notches on it.
[00:55:38] So something like twenty-eight notches on it. And there were all of these interpretations about what these notches meant: why twenty-eight, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a bunch of men asking the question. And that none of them had considered, of course, menstrual cycles, right, and whether that could be a relevant interpretation, because why would they think of menstruation being twenty-eight days?
[00:56:00] And so it's just demonstrates like the importance of being like, well, here's a suggestion, right? From somebody who has a lived experience of something it's not going to mean, it's not that a man could never have come up with that. It's just, it's not going to be at the forefront of their mind.
[00:56:18] And it's going to take a lot more work for them to consciously think about something. Whereas for a woman, you might more naturally think of this interpretation.
Dr G
On that note, I'm wondering if there are any scholars that you're aware of who are working in this field, who are bringing their disability to their study of the ancient world, [00:56:39] we might also consider and consult. And when we're thinking about this topic in the future.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:56:44] I don't personally, so. There are some, right. A lot of graduate students. For example, I have a [00:56:50] colleague Mason Schrader, who's currently a graduate student at Texas Tech, who is disabled and he's working in classical archaeology.
[00:56:56] Um, and I have an article co-authored with him that will be coming out hopefully next year about disability and archaeology and how to make our field schools more accessible. And there's this really great group called Crip Antiquity. You can look them up on Twitter, but also they have a website, and it is a collective of people with disabilities and also allies of people with disabilities working in classical antiquity.
[00:57:20] And so if you're specifically looking for somebody, that's what I would recommend that you start is with the group Crip Antiquity. To look at the work that they're doing, the advocacy that they're doing, and suggestions that they have specifically for this. But, you know, there are some great books. Um, I just, I don't know, for example, so you're looking for a book length study on this Martha L Roses, The Staff of Oedipus: Transforming Disability in ancient Greece is where I would start.
[00:57:44] You know, I have my dissertation, but if you're looking for an actual book, The Staff of Oedipus is where I would start. I think it's a very sensitive, it's a theoretically engaged study of the subject. She looks at a very limited range of disabilities. She looks at, uh, stuttering, deafness [00:58:00], muteness, and blindness, I think is what she limits her study to, you know. But I think it's a really fantastic place to start. [00:58:08] Her bibliography is really solid. Um, but then there are a lot of article length treatments of this subject as well. Of course my article on ramps, my article soon coming out this year on disability and infanticide. And hopefully, uh, whenever I finish my book, I will recommend that one.
Dr Rad
Oh, we'll have to have you back on once you have finished your book. [00:58:27] Because I mean, as I say, you've just opened my mind to all these things, which I've seen before. I mean, Everything from Tutankhamun to the stories of Jesus healing, people in the Bible. I'm just like, “Oh my god, I can't believe I've never thought about this before!” So you've definitely opened up our mind to, to looking at the sources in a completely different way.
[00:58:42] Um, if people do want to access your work, what's the best way to follow you and what you're, what you're up to?
Dr Debby Sneed
Probably on Twitter. Yeah, so I have a Twitter. I, you know, I don't know if I'll have it forever, but right now that's a great place to find me. I'm @debscavator D E B S C A V A T O R.
A great way to follow me is on Twitter. [00:59:02] I post about the work that I'm doing, but anyone who's looking to study this topic in addition to Crip Antiquity, there's also Christian Laes. I think that's how you say his last name. He actually maintains a bibliography on disability history in the ancient world, which is limited, uh, which has sort of 3000 BCE to 700 CE and the ancient world confined mostly to the Mediterranean, but broadly [00:59:27] defined within the ancient Mediterranean. So looking at disability in the Bible, disability and Judaic and Islamic, early Islamic context, right; in ancient Greece and ancient Rome. And I think at present, it is seventy-one pages long of articles and books, uh, just, and you can find that online, if you just Google the website is Disability History and the Ancient World.
[00:59:52] Um, and you'll find this entire bibliography that he updates on a regular basis is constantly taking suggestions for it. Um, so anybody looking to study this, this is a great place to start. Even if the bibliography is kind of difficultly organized.
Dr G
Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming and chatting with us. [01:00:12] We really appreciate it.
Dr Debby Sneed
[01:00:14] No this has been really great. You know, I'm always happy to talk about this work. So thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to sort of spread the idea of disability and lead ancient world questions that people can be asking and hopefully to encourage people to consider these in their own studies, to return to familiar things that they've read from the ancient world or vases that they've seen or [01:00:31] Sites that they've visited and consider what they might have overlooked.
Dr Rad
[01:00:54] Thank you for listening to this special episode of The Partial Historians. And of course, if you're one of our patrons and you've got to listen to it a little bit before everyone else. If you're keen to also get early access to all of our bonus content, then please subscribe and become a Patreon. We really value your support. It helps keep the show going.
Philip II of Macedon had his right eye surgically removed after sustaining an injury. This artwork imagines what he may have looked like after the injury. Image courtesy of panaiotis.deviantart.com
Below are materials recommended by Dr Sneed during the episode or sources that we consulted in preparation for the interview.
Dasen, V. Dwarfs in Ancient Egypt and Greece. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2013.
Dillon, M. ‘Legal (and Customary?) Approaches to the Disabled in Ancient Greece.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 167-181. New York: Routledge, 2017.
Fischer, J. ‘Behinderung und Gesellschaft im klassischen Athen. Bemerkungen zur 24. Rede des Lysias.’ In ed. Rupert Breitwieser, Behinderungen und Beeintraechtigungen/Disability and Impairment in Antiquity. British Archaeological Reports, 2012.
Gaveart, B. ‘Perfect Roman bodies.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 213-221. New York: Routledge, 2017.
Laes, C. Disabilities and the disabled in the Roman world: a social and cultural history. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2018.
Mitchell, D. T.; Snyder, S. L. Narrative Prosthesis: Disability and the Dependencies of Discourse. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2000
Pudsey, A. ‘Disability and infirmitas in the ancient world.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 22-34. New York: Routledge, 2017.
Rose, M. L. The Staff of Oedipus: Transforming Disability in Ancient Greece. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2003
Sneed, D. ‘The architecture of access: ramps at ancient Greek healing sanctuaries.’ Antiquity 94, 376 (2020), 1015-1029.
Trentin, L. The hunchback in Hellenistic and Roman art. New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2015
Trentin, L. ‘The ‘other’ Romans.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 233-247. New York: Routledge, 2017.
If you are interested in exploring this topic in greater depth, you may want to consult this bibliography on disability in antiquity that is primarily curated by Christian Laes
Under Fabius, the Romans defeat the Aequians decisively.
The consuls meet up and target the lands of both the Volscians and the Aequians.
Antium, in Volscian territory, is a particular hotspot. It seems like there is a revolt going on in this territory, only recently captured by the Romans. After a messy battle, Antium is retaken and some locals and colonists are publicly scourged and beheaded. Now there’s an example no one will want to follow.
Back at home, there is agitation for the law about the laws, but the Prefect of the City, Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus, says that nothing can take place when consuls are away.
The quaestors, Aulus Cornelius & Quintus Servilius, try to pursue Volscius for the charge of committing perjury about Caeso Quinctius being responsible for his brother’s murder – and it seems like they have a genuine case. The tribunes hold them off – after all, the consuls are away, right?
Once the consuls return, it’s triumph time! Almost as though the invasion of 460 never happened…
In 458 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Minucius Esquilinus Augurinus and Caius Nautius was consul for the second time.
Rome is facing war on many fronts, so both of the consuls are need out in the field.
Ex-consul, Quinctius Fabius Vibulanus, is made Prefect of the City – probably to keep an eye on the tribunes as well as the enemies of Rome.
The exact order of events is different in Livy and Dionysius, but external wars constitute the main events of the year.
The Aequians are back in action in spite of making peace the year before. The Aequians feel that they are not violating the deal as they are attacking the Latins – Rome’s allies, not Rome itself.
The Romans send an embassy to talk to the Aequian’s leader, Cloelius Gracchus, Quinctius Fabius Vibulanus, Publius Volumnius Amintinus Gallus and Aulus Postumius Albus Regillensis
Cloelius tells the distinguished ROmans to talk to the tree, because he ain’t listening
And it’s on like Donkey Kong
Minucius does not take a bold approach against the Aequian forces, which gives them confidence. Nautius has to be sent for as back-up.
The tribunes pull their classic move of trying to prevent the levy of forces, and they almost won, but the Sabines then attack ROman territory, terrifying everyone.
Nautius enjoys success against the Sabines, before being summoned by Minucius.
However, they are going to need more help. What they need is a silver fox with enough virtus to choke an elephant. They need a dictator and they need Cincinnatus, father of the exiled Caeso.
At least, the patricians do – they plebs aren’t thrilled at first.
Cincinnatus whips the citizens into action and devises a strategy that wins the day against the Aequians. Cincinnatus demands the city of Corbio and Gracchus is brought to him in chains – YOU talk to the tree, smart-ass!
Cincinnatus is now free to rescue the Tusculans.
Minunius steps down from the consulship but remains in Cincinnatus’ service – he’s just so amazing! The army is in the best shape ever and all because of him. He is awarded an elaborate gift and a triumph.
Because he is Cincinnatus, he is prepared to give up his power now that the external threat has passed…. But only after he finishes the case against his son’s accuser, the tribune Volscius.
Between Cincinnatus and the Quaestors Marcus Valerius Volusi Maximus and Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus, Volscius is found guilty and exiled.
Cincinnatus can now return to his life as a private citizen on his farm.
In 457 BCE, the consuls were Quintus Minucius Esquilinus and Marcus Horatius Pulvilius in his second consulship.
In this year, the Sabines become a problem once more, attacking ROman territory.
The tribunes are undeterred, demanding the codification of the laws. Give us the law!
The consuls want to ignore this issue and conduct the levy.
Cincinnatus shames people into enlisting by making appeals to ROman masculinity and pride – if no one fights, the ROmans will lose their empire! The patricians will fight – but will the plebs?
An assembly is called, and the consul Horatius openly admits that the patricians will not give up their privileges. He brings out the old patricians to shame the plebeians and again questions their masculinity.
The tribune Verginius counters as he can see the crowd is being affected by these theatrics. No one is betraying anyone here – they just want some concessions.
Horatius will entertain any reasonable requests, so the tribunes ask for their number to be doubled.
Cincinnatus and Claudius are in favour of making this deal – more tribunes means a greater possibility for them to be divided into factions.
The tribune election takes place immediately – the plebs know they need to get the money up front now!
The levy can now proceed and Minucius is sent to deal with the Sabines, who retreat and allow their lands to be pillaged.
Horatius defeats the Aequians and razes Corbio to the ground.
In 456 BCE, the consuls were Marcus Valerius Volusi Maxumus Lactuca and Spurius Verginius Tricosus Caeliomontanus.
The tribunes for the year were Lucius Icilius and Lucius Alienus.
Icilius is keen to meet with consuls, but they are ghosting him. When he tries to force the issue, Icilius’ attendants are driven away by the consuls’ lictors.
In retaliation, the tribunes seize one of the lictors and decide to throw him off the Tarpeain Rock.
The consuls are distressed, but helpless to fight off the tribunes. Luckily for them, the tribunes decide to release the hapless lictor.
Icilius instead pursues a law about the use of public land. This law would mean that land that has been taken by force or fraud would be given over to the populace, the occupiers reimbursed and the rest to be divided up amongst the public
The Senate agreed, except for Gaius Claudius, and this law was unusually named after Icilius.
In 455 BCE, the consuls were Titus Romilius Rocus Vaticanus and Gaius Veturius Cicurinus.
Once again, two of the tribunes were Lucius Icilius and Lucius Alienus.
This is a tricky year, as the accounts of Livy and Dionysius diverged.
In Livy, the tribunes were all feeling very ashamed as they felt they had not accomplished much – especially with ten of them working for the people. They are pushing hard to get the law about the laws through.
Unfortunately for them, the Aequians were on the loose and attacking the Tusculans. No Roman can resist an adorable Tusculan in distress!
The consuls were despatched and killed 7000 Aequians in battle. The remainder of the Aequians fled, leaving lots of booty behind for the Romans. The consuls decided to sell the spoils as the treasury needed to be replenished.
The army is furious and the tribunes see their opportunity to impeach the consuls once they are out of office.
In Dionysius, the consuls decide on war as they need to distract people from the law about the laws. Some of the people are reluctant to enlist, so the consuls start arresting the culprits.
The tribunes denounce the consuls, especially as they are arresting people who are appealing to their protection. The tribunes claim that they are able to release people from the levy, and when that didn’t work, they try to physically stop the levy.
A fight breaks out between the young patricians and the tribunes and their supporters. The patricians win the day, but the tribunes put out the call for more plebeians to join them, and soon the patricians were outnumbered.
The tribunes demand that the consuls join their assembly and they don’t show up, the tribunes head to the senate. They confront the consuls about their behaviour, but the consuls think the tribunes are the problem. The Senate reaches no decision about how to act.
The tribunes call a meeting and propose that the plebs secede, but not everyone is ready for this dramatic a step. It doesn’t help that some of the tribunes have been won over the senate!
After much discussion, the tribunes decide to fine the consuls.
They call an assembly and tell the people that they are going to fight for land allotment and equality before the law. It’s time to get more than just part of the Aventine Hill. The tribunes call on plebs in the audience to come forward and speak about their experiences.
The crowd goes wild, but they haven’t seen anything yet. Lucius Siccius Dentatus steps up the rostra. He is an eloquent solider with extensive military experience and too many honours to name. Who deserves land more Siccius? How can someone who has given so much have so little?
Everyone goes nuts for Siccius, but Icilius says they need to hear from others.
The consuls are desperate to block the tribune’s plans, so they make sure that they stake out the forum early. When people arrive to speak, they make their approval or disapproval known.
The tension rises between the tribunes and consuls.
When it is time for the vote to take place regarding the law, the patricians disrupt the process and push people off the bridge they need to cross to cast their vote. Needless to say the law does not get passed, largely thanks to the work of three patrician families – the Postumii, the Cloelii and the Sempronii.
The tribunes will not take this offence lying down. They decide to go after the patrician families responsible – after all, this is an offence against the gods.
The patrician estates are confiscated and dedicated to Ceres – except that their friends buy their estates back for them. At least the tribunes made some money out of the deal!
It is at this point that the Tusculans arrive with news of an Aequian attack, and both consuls are sent to the rescue – very unusual, but that is how special the Tusculans are.
Although the tribunes object to the levy, the consuls have a secret weapon – an appeal to the gods. They declare that those who sign up for the campaign will please the gods – and you know what will happen to those who don’t. Most people are too scared to refuse.
Siccius, always one to do his duty, arrives with his own legion of veterans.
When the Romans engage with the Aequains in battle. Limited progress is made because both armies are so evenly matched.
Romilius devises a plan for Siccius and his men to try and attack the Aequians from behind whilst the attacks from the front. Siccius knows that this is a suicide mission, but Romilius refuses to back down.
No one gets rid of Siccius that easily. He comes up with a cunning plan to find a different path to reach the Aequians. His men capture a local farmer and he informs them that there is just such a path.
The Aequains are defeated and Siccius’ men love him more than ever for saving their lives whilst securing a victory.
Now it’s time for revenge on Romilius. Siccius and his men destroy all the spoils in the Aequian camp before marching directly to Rome and telling everyone that the consuls forced him to do this.
The consuls are in serious trouble – no triumphs for you!
In 454 BCE, the consuls were Spurius Tarpeius Montanus and Aulus Terminius or Aternius Varus Fontinalis.
Once more, there was quite a lot of difference between Livy and Dionysius.
Dionysius is still following the career of the Roman Achilles – Siccius.
Lucius Siccius Dentatus, now a tribune, pursued a trial against Romilius for injuring the state.
Siccius brought out numerous witnesses about Romilius’ callous attitude to himself and his men. The tears shed by the audience don’t bode well for Romilius.
Romilius remained a haughty patrician to the last, claiming that he did what he had to do as commander. Every tribe voted to condemn him and Romilius was fined 10 000 asses.
Meanwhile, former tribune and now Aedile of the plebs, Lucius Alienus, prosecuted the other former consul, Veturius, and he was fined 15 000 asses.
With this unpleasantness out of the way, once again the law about the laws comes up for discussion.
Romilius surprisingly was in support of the codification. Although he was a staunch patrician and had always despised the plebs, his recent trial taught him a valuable lesson. The patricians were not powerful enough to protect him and all those other persecuted patricians (cough cough) like Caeso, so something needed to change.
Romilius suggested seeking advice from other states that are running smoothly – like somewhere in Greece! This connection to Greece has been seen as an attempt to associate Rome with the fame of Athens and the law code of Solon. After all, if the Romans wanted to learn about Greek laws, they could have have just headed south.
The consuls supported Romilius’ proposal and Siccius praised him for placing the public good first. In tribute to Romilius, Siccius suggested cancelling the fine.
All of this information about the fines issued to the ex-consuls seems to be related to the Lex Aternia Tarpeia, which set a maximum penalty on the fines that could be applied for offences involving illegal attempts to gain authority and disrespect.
In Livy, the trip to Athens comes up after the tribunes pursue the law about the laws with the new consuls. The tribunes assure the consuls that they are prepared to be reasonable.
They suggest that patricians and plebeians should just get together and chat about their priorities and how to devise a law code. They agree, but only if the chat is patricians only – no plebs allowed!
The tribunes just want some progress, so they agree. It is after this that the educational foray to Greece is planned.
In 453 BCE, the consuls were Publius Curiatus Fistus Trigeminius and Sextus Quinctilius
The suffect consul Spurius Furius Medullinus Fusus
This was one of the lowest points of the decade. A terrible pestilence broke out and caused a huge amount of suffering and death in all social classes and even the animals.
We cannot be sure of the numbers, but it seems that half of the citizen population were wiped out and most of the slaves.
One of the consuls was struck down, and tragically, so was his replacement – Spurius Furius.
So many people were affected that the fields were neglected and famine ensued, adding to the misery of the Romans.
The Aequians considered taking advantage of Rome’s weakness, but they became infected by the pestilence when they tried to attack and had to retreat.
In 452 BCE, the consuls were Menenius Agrippa (his praenomen could have been Gaius, Lucius, or Titus) and Publius Sestius
The pestilence has passed, but there are still food shortages in Rome and the consuls need to buy corn to address the grain crisis.
The delegation that had been sent to Athens to study the laws of Solon return, full of ideas for the Roman law code.
The Romans are getting serious about the codification of their laws and start to discuss the best way to proceed.
The idea for a decemvirate, a group of ten magistrates, is suggested. These men would take the place of all the normal offices and there would be no right of appeal. This could not take place immediately, as there were already consuls in office who needed to serve their full term.
Whilst having a mixture of plebeian and patrician magistrates is discussed, the patricians are quick to squash those dreams – it will be patricians only or nothing.
This sends up some red flags for the plebeians, who are only willing to agree to this system if they are assured that the tribunes and land allocation on the Aventine will be protected and restored once the decemvirate is over.
A slight hitch is that there are already some consul-designates who have been chosen to serve in 451 – Titus Genucius and Appius Claudius.
Appius addresses the senate about the importance of the law code and volunteers to give up his chance to be consul so that the decemvirate can go ahead. What a guy! No wonder he is chosen to serve as decemvir.
The first decemvirate begins, and it is a big success.
The decemvirs get along remarkably well and they aren’t flaunting their power or status.
They produce the Ten Tables, which are approved after consultation with the populace.
Confusingly, the laws do not seem to address many issues that have been concerning the plebeians, but they do provide some insight into life in Rome at this time.
Whilst everyone is satisfied, there is general agreement that a few more laws are needed and it is decided that the Romans need a second decemvirate.
Elections are set, and Appius Claudius campaigns hard. He is determined to hang on to his position, so he starts getting friendly with the plebs and tribunes – even badmouthing the patricians.
His colleagues are suspicious of his behaviour but they refrain from calling him out on his behaviour.
Appius manages to get re-elected, along with some of his friends.
Unusually, some plebeians seem to be chosen as well. What is going on?
As soon as he has secured his position, Appius reveals his true self. He becomes cruel and arrogant, and encourages his other decemvirs to aim for tyranny.
They start meeting in secret and vow never to give up their power.
Each man has his own fasces and is attended by lictors in public.
Everyone, patrician and plebeian, is dismayed by their behaviour, but their power is absolute and there seems to be little that anyone can do.
The decemvirs add two tables to the law code, making it The Twelve Tables, including a controversial ban on intermarriage between the plebeians and patricians.
True to their secret evil plan, the decemvirs remain in office, even though their business is seemingly now complete.
As we slide into the 440s, the situation in Rome continues to deteriorate. The decemvirs start using the young patricians to bully the populace. Citizens are scourged with rods, their property can be confiscated and some are even murdered.
FR – And that was the 450s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
PG – Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes.
FR – Thanks for joining us for this Partial Recap!
Livy shifts from speeches to explore the politicking in the senate including a possible interregum and calls for the decemvirs to give up office by the Ides of May. Meanwhile Dionysius of Halicarnassus continues to explore the rhetorical potential of a large-scale senatorial debate!
A patrician call for a tribune to represent them and protect them from the decemvirate!
The accusation that the decemvirs are the ‘Ten Tarquins' – ouch!
Intimidation in the senate!
Appius Claudius faces some heated criticism from his uncle Gaius…
Concerns about how Rome will raise an army
Has Rome been abandoned by her citizens?
Gaius Claudius offers Appius a way to salvage his reputation with the people
The possibility of an interrex
A Sabine defection!
Appius Claudius
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus (cos. 467, 465, 459 BCE)
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginensis
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
Lucius Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginensis (brother of the decemvir Marcus)
Lucius Quintius Cincinnatus
Titus Quinctius Capitolinus
Lucius Lucretius
Gaius Claudius (Appius' uncle)
Dr Rad reads Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.39-40
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman History 11.4-15
Additional music and sound in this episode includes:
One of the most arresting portraits is by Artemisia Gentileschi, Death of Cleopatra, 1613 or 1621-1622. Here we see a woman in middle age, stripped bare of all the insignia of power in her final moment of defiance.
We explore some of the reasons behind the differing portraits that have survived of Cleopatra, before delving into the Islamic source tradition. Produced much later than the Greco-Roman sources or the archaeological material, the Islamic sources provide a distinct portrayal of Egypt's last queen; one that is not bound up in her relationships with men or her appearance.
Cleopatra the scholar?Elizabeth Taylor in the title role of the 1963 film with writing implement in hand! Image courtesy of www.mediafactory.com.au
Join us for this episode about the historiography of Egypt's last pharaoh; a woman whose fame deserves to include more than just her Roman lovers.
Ashton, S. Cleopatra and Egypt. Malden: Blackwell Publishing, 2008.
El-Daly, O. Egyptology: The Missing Millenium: Ancient Egypt in Medieval Arabic Writings. London & New York: Routledge, 2016.
Gillett, M. “Goddess, Whore, Queen and Scholar.” Teaching History 51, no. 1 (March 2017): 19-23.
Hughes-Hallet, L. Cleopatra: histories, dreams and distortions. London: Pimlico, 1997.
Welch, K. “Cleopatra as Pharaoh?” Teaching History 53, no. 1 (March 2019): 10-15.
Eder, W. 2005. ‘The Political Significance of the Codification of Law in Archaic Societies: An Unconventional Hypothesis’ in K. Raaflaub (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Forsythe, G. 2005. A Critical History of Early Rome
Momigliano, A. 2005. ‘The Rise of the Plebs in the Archaic Age of Rome’ in K. Raaflaub (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Perello, C. F. A. 2020. ‘The Twelve Tables and the leges regiae; A Problem of Validity’ in S. W. Bell & P. J. du Pleissis (eds) Roman Law Before the Twelve Tables: An Interdisciplinary Approach
Raaflaub, K. 2005. ‘From Protection and Defense to Offense and Participation: Stages in the Conflict of the Orders’ in K. Raaflaub (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Scullard, H. H. 1935. A History of the Roman World 753-146 BC
This shows the forum in ruins, but it is in this space that the Twelve Tables would have been present to the populace. Image curtesy of Wikimedia Commons, by Kimberlym21
There were some domestic issues that surfaced as the plebeians were pushing for progress with the agrarian law – looking for a fairer share of the land.
They were quickly distracted by issues with the Volscians. The Volscians start making incursions into Roman territory and the consuls journey forward to meet the threat.
Numicius heads off to the belly of the beast – Volscian territory – and his forces pillage and capture coastal settlements as they go. Antium, a major Volscian city, is in their sights.
Verginius goes to deal with Aequians in the east. The Aequians are enemies of Rome and allies of the Volscians. After a bit of a rocky start, he defeats them in combat. He then turns around to deal with the Sabines. Turns out Rome is surrounded by enemies!
Meanwhile, back in Rome, the plebeians decide not to vote in the annual elections. They are tired of the lack of progress on the agrarian law, so what is even the point anymore? The agrarian reform the plebeians have been pushing for would mean a fairer distribution of public land for all Roman citizens. The elite patricians have been stalling, knowing it’ll mean a loss for them.
In 468 BCE, the consuls were Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus (consul for the second time) and Quintus Servilius Priscus.
Unrest between Rome and their neighbours continues. Rome is facing issues with the Sabines to the north east, and the Volscian-Aequian alliance which stretches from the south to the east.
Servilius is off campaigning against the Sabines. They stay well protected behind their walls as the Romans destroy their lands.
Quintius takes on the Volscian-Aequian alliance and meets them on the battlefield. It’s tough, but with some quick thinking (and lying) on his part, as well as charging into battle on foot himself, the Romans pull through on the first day.
The fighting continues the next day and the Romans are massively outnumbered. But one again, the generalship of Quintius saves the day. The Romans seize the enemy camp and the city of Antium!
These amazing deeds secure a triumph for Quintius.
In 467 BCE, the consuls were Titus Aemilius Mamercus (cos. From 470 BCE) and Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.
Fun fact: the consul Quintus Fabius is the sole survivor of his family from the infamous battle of Cremera in c. 477 BCE. Long live the Fabii!
Aemilius Mamercus is drawing some heat from his fellow patricians because he seems open minded when it comes to the issue of agrarian reform and land allotment. The plebeian mood is one of optimism.
However, the patricians as a whole are still resistant. Fabius has a cunning plan to settle the dispute. He suggests they use the new land they have captured near Antium to appease the plebeians.
This suggestion is well-received as three past consuls are ushered in as triumvirs for assigning land to the people (triumviri agro dando). The lucky gentlemen are: Titus Quintius Capitolinus (cos. 471), Aulus Verginius (cos. 469) and Publius Furius (cos. 472).
The plebeians aren’t in a hurry to leave Rome and don’t appreciate being banished from Rome, so the Senate allows Rome’s allies (the Latins and Hernicians) and some Volscians (who have been suitably cowed) to sign up for some land
The consuls have other fish to fry. Aemilius attempts to fight the Sabines. Again they aren’t interested in engaging in open battle and they watch as their territory is ravaged by the Romans
Fabius ventures into Aequian territory only to find that they are very willing to strike a deal with the Romans, perhaps a little too willing….
In 466 BCE, the consuls were Spurius Postumius Albinus Regillensis and Quintus Servilius Priscus (Structus), who had previously been consul in 468 BCE.
It’s a bit confusing but it seems there are some issues with the newly acquired territory and the Latin allies who have moved south aren’t happy about it. Could it be that Rome has offered her allies a bum deal?
Quintus Fabius is no longer consul, but he’s pretty invested in the whole southern territory thing because it was his suggestion, so he heads down to chat to the Aequians to find out whether they are actually violating the new treaty or not.
He soon realises from the suspicious behaviour of the Aequians that he is in trouble and that these guys are up to something
The Romans dispatch the fetiales (deploy the war priests!)and declare unless those responsible for the wrongdoing are expelled from Antium there shall be a just war waged upon them by Rome with the full support of the Roman gods.
The Aequians prefer war – although combat is delayed by a plague that strikes the Roman forces (awkward divine sign?)
Once the Romans can get out of bed (this might take until the following year, sources disagree), both the consuls are sent to deal with the faithless Aequians. After a tough battle, the Romans win the day, leaving some very disgruntled Aequians behind.
The Romans round out the year with a temple dedication to Dius Fidius (sometimes known as Sanctus) – a mysterious god that may have been Sabine in origin.
In 465 BCE, the consuls were Titus Quintius Capitolinus (who was on his third consulship!) and Quintus Fabius Vibulanus (consul for the second time). Quintius Servilius serves as the Prefect of the City.
The Romans are all a-flutter as the Aequians are already back in action and raiding nearby territory!
Titus Quintius Capitolinus heads out and rebukes his men for being so scared, quickly setting up patrols of the borderlands – unfortunately he keeps missing the enemy
Meanwhile Fabius is enjoying a lot of success against the Aequians and captures some booty
With that settled, the courts can re-open back in Rome and it’s time for a census. Livy records 104 714 citizens, not including orphans and widows.
In 464 BCE, the consuls were Aulus Postumius Albus Regillensis and Spurius Furius Medullinus Fusus.
There are ongoing issues with the Aequians and the new territory in Antium – some problems relating to offering land to people you just took it away from perhaps…
Rome’s allies, the Hernicians, bring word that all is not well in the new colony
Trouble seems to rapidly accelerate! Martial law is declared and Postumius is given dictatorial powers
Fighting breaks out unexpectedly in the middle of the night when the Aequians launch an attack on Antium and things are looking very dicey for the Romans. Spurius Furius gets injured in the battle.
Fortunately, Titus Quintius Capitolinus (just off the back of his third consuldhip) turns up with the flower of the Roman youth and the allies just in time. The year finishes in a bit of a stalemate with a lot of loss on both sides.
In 463 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Aebutius Helva and Publius Servilius Priscus.
The year does not begin auspiciously. There are some bad omens which has everyone concerned.
Soon, a serious plague breaks out in Rome and the surrounding areas
It wipes out almost all livestock and a quarter of the senators died – including both the consuls, meaning we see the use of some interregna as a result
The Aequians and the Volscians decide to take advantage of this weakness to attack Roman territory
Whether it was due to the enhancement of natural defences or supernatural forces, the Aequians and Volscians decide not to go through with the assault on the city, and with the help of their allies, Rome lives to fight another day.
As the year wraps up, the plague starts to pass – almost a little too neatly. Was this just a year without enough military action and so the annalists got creative?
In 462 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus and Titus Veturius Geminus Cicurinus.
Rome’s allies, the Hernicians need help as they have Volscians and Aequians camped on their border. Hernician territory is south-east of Rome and lies between the Aequians in the east and the Volscians in the south, so it’s not surprising they find themselves in a tight spot!
The plebeian tribunes aren’t interested in foreign diplomacy and are busy pursuing domestic issues. The tribune Sextius Titus is trying to reignite support for the land allotment bill – but the populace want to wait for a better time for agrarian reform as it looks like Rome will have to go to war.
The Senate find no problems signing people up for this new war
The Romans keep one army at home with Quintus Fabius (cos. 465), send one against the Volscians, and send another to help their allies. That’s three armies.
Nothing much happens out in enemy territory but…
The Volscian-Aequian forces manage to get around the Roman forces, causing a bit of panic in the city. Fabius is quick to calm everyone down and the bandits aren’t brave enough to attack the city itself
On their way home, the Volscians-Aequian force run into Lucretius and are severely defeated – the Volscians are reportedly wiped out
Veturius is awarded an ovatio and Lucretius a triumph, but this celebration is delayed due to some new trouble at home
As we slide from 462 into 461, the tribunes are trying to take advantage of the absence of the consuls. Gaius Terentilius Harsa in particular pushes for reform. He believes that Rome needs to move away from the informal legal system that they have been using. The informal system relies on tradition and only a few (elite) people understand how things work. What Harsa wants is a system that is more transparent and where case law is written down. On top of that, Harsa also lobbies to place a limit on the amount of power that a person can hold.
Harsa suggests putting together a college of 5 men to write down some laws and limit the imperium of the consuls.
The patricians are completely freaked out. The Prefect of the City, Quintus Fabius, steps in and violently opposes Harsa’s ideas. How dare Harsa stir up trouble with the consuls out of town and a war going on? Fabius paints the tribunes as enemies of the state, and Harsa’s colleagues back off.
As things calm down, Lucretius can safely return to have his triumph.
He organised a large lost and found with all of the booty that he recaptured during his campaign out on the Campus Martius.
In 461, the consuls were Publius Volumnius and Servius Sulpicius.
The plebeian tribune Harsa’s proposals from 462 have struck a chord with the people. And the new tribunes continue to push for legal reform, particularly Aulus Verginius.
However, disaster clearly lies ahead, as all sorts of prodigies take place – spectres, earthquakes, a talking cow and a rain of flesh that doesn’t smell or rot. Even the soothsayers were stumped.
There’s only one thing to do in such a situation: consult The Sibylline Books, a collection of ancient wisdom. The wise message: The Romans are warned to be wary of foreigners that might enslave the Romans and to avoid factionalism
The tribunes aren’t deterred by this “wisdom” and accuse the patricians of trying to buy time.
Rome’s allies, the Hernicians show up to warn the Romans that the Volscians are preparing for another war. The Senate wants to levy troops, but the tribunes call foul – seeing this as just another stalling tactic.
The tribunes take matters into their own hands, call an assembly of the people to put forward ideas for their approval. The most Important proposal – to have a group of 10 men elected by the people to draft a set of public and private laws. These laws would be publicly accessible and everyone would be bound by them.
The consuls are provoked by this situation and go on the offensive, attacking the tribunes and pointing out that it is not their job to propose new laws. The consuls accuse the tribunes of just being after more power for themselves.
The consuls attempt to hold a levy to build up the armed forces, but the tribunes arrive and to prevent it from proceeding. Things get violent pretty quickly.
And the senators repay the favour – physically preventing the tribunes from holding a vote on the law about the laws
The senators are keen to drive home the point that the tribunes have no authority beyond helping the poor. As far as the senate is concerned, the tribunes have no legal or sacral basis to propose new laws.
The consuls and older patricians start to take a step back from getting physically involved, but the young patricians are prepared to do no such thing, particularly the feisty Caeso Qunctius.
Caeso a gift from the gods – physically strong, a distinguished soldier, rhetorically gifted and known for getting aggressive with the tribunes.
The tribunes find Caeso an intimidating prospect, except for Aulus Verginius, who brings Caeso up on capital charges.
Caeso has lots of supporters who come forward to try and save him, including his dad, Cincinnatus, who asks for clemency based on his own deeds for the Republic.
However, Marcus Volscius Fictor, another tribune, comes forward and reveals that Caeso was responsible for the murder of his brother. The crowd is so angered by this tale, that Verginius considers putting Caeso in gaol just to keep him safe.
The patricians manage to strike a deal instead – Caeso is released in return for a large sum of money that will be forfeit if he fails to show for his trial.
Caeso promptly disappears, leaving his dad behind to pay the money that was pledged.
In 460 BCE, the consuls were Publius Valerius (a previous consul from 475 BCE and friend to the people) and Gaius Claudius, a die-hard patrician. This is one of the most complex years in the Early Republic!
Marcus Volscius Fictor and Aulus Verginius return as tribunes, and they are pretty pleased that Caeso is out of the way.
The rest of the young patricians start to use a new strategy against the tribunes – moderation all the way unless the law about the laws comes up – then the aggression hits 11
The tribunes decide to devise a conspiracy, forging threatening letters to themselves, supposedly from Caeso, who has taken refuge with the Volscians and Aequians. The tribunes read out these letters in front of the Senate and beg for protection.
The consul Gaius Claudius is quick to see through the tribunes and sends them packing. He then berates the senate for creating the tribunate and allowing such people to falsely accuse an excellent young man like Caeso of murder.
The tribune Verginius takes his grievances about the threats to the people and manages to secure some support from them
With the tribunes and plebeians in a suitably paranoid state, an unexpected attack comes from Appius Herdonius – a noble Sabine – and his band of either slaves, exiles, clients or a mixture of them all
Herdonius & Co sneak into Rome by night and capture the Capitol and citadel. Herdonius invites the plebs and slaves to join him – looks like the Sibylline books were right after all!
The consuls are concerned that this is the beginning of a civil conflict. But the city is in danger, so they take a chance and arm the plebs as they need forces and they needed them right away
The tribunes, on the other hand, are crying “fake news” and urging the plebs not to fight until they secure their rights in return.
Claudius is furious with the plebeians and makes no secret of it, but the consul Valerius manages to talk them into joining the fray with promises that the Senate will look into the law about the laws, just as soon as they have all saved the city – priorities people!
The Romans get ready for a lengthy siege, and get some unexpected help from Lucius Mamilius, the dictator of Tusculum. Mamilius noticed the Sabine ships and rushed on over to help. What a man!
The fighting is fierce, and in the final push, Valerius is tragically killed. But at least the Sabines are defeated. The Sabine leader Herdonius dies a heroic death.
In the aftermath, the plebeians give some of their own money towards the funeral of the great Valerius.
But the tribunes aren’t going to let the issue of the law drop
The remaining consul, Gaius Claudius, uses some delaying tactics to stall them, most notably the fact that he has no colleague
The patricians eventually bring in a man who is capable of dealing with these meddlesome tribunes – Cincinnatus!
Cincinnatus is brought in from his humble farm and promptly lectures the Senate for letting the tribunes get out of control
A stand-off quickly ensues between Cincinnatus and the tribunes as they each try to push their own agendas through
Cincinnatus scores points with everyone in Rome for his strict but fair attitude. He’s sure that the only way to really whip Rome back into shape is to bring in a dictator – those tribunes are out of control
In the short term, a deal is struck in which the consuls agree not to make the plebeians go on campaign and the tribunes let the codification of the laws drop… for the time being
However, the senate also tries to limit the amount of time a magistrate could hold office. But the tribunes are not willing to bend on this issue. The tribunes Verginius and Volscius are quickly reinstated – again
The patricians want to follow suit and bring Cincinnatus back for a second consulship but he refuses to stoop to the level of the plebs.
There’s a lot going on in 460 and to really come to the grips with the detail takes some doing. Tune into the following episodes for all the details:
FR – And that was the 460s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
PG – Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes.
FR – Thanks for joining us for this Partial Recap!
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