The Non-Billable Podcast – Details, episodes & analysis

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The Non-Billable Podcast

Non-Billable

Business

Frequency: 1 episode/8d. Total Eps: 21

The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry. Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm with in-house experience at an investment bank - now asking the questions he wished he had when he was practising. Brought to you by Non-Billable, the go-to newsletter for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.

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'Some firms won't survive': Simmons senior partner Julian Taylor on the legal AI reckoning, NQ pay wars and the US firm challenge

Tuesday, August 12, 2025 • Duration 44:44

Julian Taylor is senior partner at Simmons & Simmons and one of the City’s most highly regarded employment lawyers. He’s spent over 25 years at the firm and has had a front-row seat to the transformation of the legal profession. In this episode, he shares candid views on the forces reshaping the industry, from the rise of AI to the battle for the best talent.

Julian explains how Simmons is embedding AI into its work - from in-house tools like “Percy” to partnerships with legal tech providers - and why firms that fail to adapt could struggle to survive. He also talks about how AI is changing pricing models, client expectations, and the types of work law firms can take on.

Julian calls newly qualified lawyer pay in some parts of the market “crazy”, warns about the talent market distortions it creates, and explains why Simmons takes a different approach to competing for junior lawyers. He also reflects on the impact of US firms in London and how their intense profitability targets are reshaping the market.

We finish with a discussion on culture and flexibility - including the unique part-time arrangement Julian has maintained for nearly two decades - and why he believes adaptability and openness to change are now non-negotiable for any lawyer building a long-term career.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:15 Julian’s Background and Career

03:21 Simmons' Financial Performance and Sector Focus

06:33 The Role of AI in Law

11:15 Pricing and Client Expectations in the Age of AI

15:10 Building vs. Buying Legal Tech Solutions

19:13 The Future of AI in the Legal Profession

24:58 Training the Next Generation of Lawyers

28:37 Attracting and Retaining Talent in a Changing Landscape

32:39 Flexible Work Arrangements and Work-Life Balance

37:45 ‘Crazy’ NQ Pay And The Impact of US Firms on the Legal Market

43:05 Looking Ahead: Goals for the Future

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

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Why investors are eyeing law firms: Burford Capital’s Travis Lenkner on how external capital is changing the market and why Burford prefers minority stakes

Tuesday, August 5, 2025 • Duration 37:24

Private equity and other forms of external capital are moving into the legal sector - a shift that is very likely to reshape law firm strategy. In this episode, we speak with Travis Lenkner, chief development officer at Burford Capital, the world’s largest provider of legal finance, about why investors are increasingly eyeing law firms and what that means for the market.

Travis shares his unique perspective, having worked as a litigator at Gibson Dunn, served as senior counsel at Boeing, co-founded litigation funder Gerchen Keller Capital (later acquired by Burford), and launched his own law firm before rejoining Burford in 2024.

Now focused on exploring potential equity investments in law firms, Travis explains the forces driving investor interest - from the UK’s long-standing ABS regime to growing recognition of law as a professional services market ripe for consolidation and technology-led transformation.

We discuss the different ends of the market attracting attention, from private equity-backed regional roll-ups to strategic growth capital for top-tier global firms. Travis explains why Burford prefers minority stakes, the kinds of structures that make sense for law firms wary of losing control, and how outside capital can fund strategic hires, technology investment and geographic expansion. He also tackles the challenges of the traditional partnership model and the cultural shifts required to align incentives with long-term growth.

Finally, Travis offers insights on the evolving US market - where regulatory constraints mean law firm investment often looks different - and why he expects both markets to develop rapidly in the next five years.

Chapters

00:45 Introduction to Travis And Career Journey

02:31 Understanding Burford Capital's Role in Legal Finance

04:50 The Financial Model Behind Litigation Funding

05:46 The Rise of External Capital in Law Firms

06:12 Investment Strategies for Law Firms

The $100m legal AI startup transforming in-house teams: Wordsmith CEO Ross McNairn on turning legal into a revenue driver

Tuesday, July 29, 2025 • Duration 34:54

Ross McNairn is the founder and CEO of Wordsmith, one of the fastest-growing legal AI startups in Europe. In this episode, Ross shares how Wordsmith is rethinking the in-house legal function - not just with automation, but with a new model for how legal teams can triage and respond to the rest of the business using AI agents.

We talk through the challenges of in-house legal teams, why Wordsmith is laser-focused on corporate legal rather than law firms, and how AI assistants are shifting legal from being perceived as a blocker to a true business enabler. Ross also explains how their customers - including companies like Trustpilot - are using the platform to improve responsiveness and efficiency across functions.

Ross opens up about raising $25 million from Index Ventures, how Wordsmith became the fastest Scottish company to hit a $100 million valuation, and why they’ve been disciplined about staying lean, product-led, and focused on usage over hype. He also shares his thoughts on legal AI funding trends, the law firm vs in-house tech split, and the future of generalist vs vertical solutions in the space.

Whether you’re a GC thinking about legal AI adoption, a lawyer eyeing a career move into tech, or just curious about how legal is changing from the inside, this is a conversation with a founder building at the forefront of the industry.

Chapters

00:45 From Law to Software

00:53 The Role of AI in Legal Workflows

02:11 Introducing Wordsmith

05:08 AI Agents: Enhancing Legal Productivity

08:08 Customer Success Stories: Real-World Impact of Wordsmith

10:57 Sales Strategy: Building Trust in Legal Tech

13:55 Funding and Future Plans: Scaling Wordsmith

16:30 Building a Lean Company

17:27 Hiring for Legal Intelligence

19:06 Motivations For People Joining Wordsmith

Private equity is circling the legal industry: Rosenblatt rescue dealmaker Adil Taha on law firm deals, PE strategy and the exit problem

Tuesday, July 22, 2025 • Duration 39:58

In this episode, we’re joined by Adil Taha, a former investment banker, private equity executive and one of the most experienced PE figures operating in the UK legal sector today.

Adil has led or been involved in multiple private equity transactions across professional services, including the turnaround of several law firms and the recent high-profile rescue of Rosenblatt out of failing listed group RBG Holdings.

We dive into the mechanics of private equity in law - how deals are structured, what PE firms are really looking for, and why so many are focused on buy-and-build strategies in the regional market. Adil gives a candid assessment of what’s working, what isn’t, and why we’ve yet to see a successful PE exit in UK legal.

He also unpacks the challenges of law firm listings, the hidden risks of the full-service model, and why relationship-driven businesses don’t always fit neatly into financial engineering. Finally, we talk about the opportunity Adil sees at the top end of the market: building a lean, high-performance boutique from scratch. For investors, firm leaders, and ambitious lawyers alike, this is an inside look at how private capital is reshaping the business of law.

Chapters

00:45 Adil’s Background and First Law Firm Rescue

02:15 The Rosenblatt Rescue

03:51 The Rise of PE in Legal Post-COVID

06:27 Where PE is Investing Today

09:09 Exit Challenges and Lack of Trade Sales

11:45 Why Law Firm IPOs Don’t Work

14:39 The Culture Clash Between Law and Public Markets

16:08 Trade Sales vs PE: Who’s Buying?

19:03 Why MBOs May Be the Only Exit Path

21:21 Could PE Ever Buy a Top 30 Firm?

23:09 Lessons from DWF and Who’s Vulnerable

25:39 Exit Options for Larger Firms

How top firms compete for talent: City headhunter Ed Parker on the high-stakes game of elite lateral partner hiring

Tuesday, July 15, 2025 • Duration 49:28

In this episode, we’re joined by Ed Parker, managing director at Fides Search and one of the most trusted headhunters in the City legal market.

With nearly two decades of experience advising on partner and team moves, Ed brings a nuanced, data-driven perspective on how top firms are growing, and what that means for lawyers navigating their careers.

We explore the structural shifts happening across the partner talent market, from the aggressive expansion of US firms in London to the growing importance of team moves and due diligence in lateral hiring. Ed explains why some firms are placing massive bets on high-performing partners, how they price those hires, and what really determines whether a client book will travel.

For ambitious associates, this episode is packed with insight. Ed shares honest advice on timing your move, the risks of chasing quick promotions, and how to position yourself for long-term success - whether that’s through internal promotion or switching platforms. He also unpacks the rise of non-equity partnerships and what clients really care about when it comes to partner titles.

Finally, we touch on where the market is headed in the second half the year, from fast-moving jurisdictions like Saudi and Luxembourg to the enduring pull of London as a legal hub. If you're interested in the economics, strategy, and personal dynamics behind law firm hiring, this is one not to miss.

Chapters

00:45 Introduction & About Fides Search

03:45 What Headhunting Actually Involves

07:15 Building a Practice from Scratch

10:15 The State of the Partner Market in 2025

14:15 UK Firms: Adapting or Falling Behind?

17:30 Team Moves vs. Individual Lateral Hires

21:15 The Economics of Big Hires

25:45 Is This an Existential Threat to UK Firms?

30:15 The Rise of Non-Equity Partners

The boutique that beat the Magic Circle: How Quinn Emanuel built the most successful litigation practice in London

Tuesday, July 1, 2025 • Duration 40:47

In this episode, we sit down with Richard East, the founding partner of Quinn Emanuel’s London office - the litigation powerhouse that has gone from a 2008 startup to one of the UK’s most profitable disputes firms, with revenues topping £220 million last year. Richard shares how he built the practice from scratch during the height of the financial crisis.

We discuss Quinn Emanuel’s distinctive model: no corporate teams, no panels, no conflicts - and no apologies about taking on the banks. Richard explains why that singular focus has been so powerful, and how the firm’s “door-to-door” approach to marketing - cold-calling and in-person meetings - helped them land early clients that fuelled their growth.

Richard also opens up about recruiting and compensation, including why Quinn refuses to follow the Cravath scale, why they pay comfortably above Magic Circle firms, and why entrepreneurial mindset is non-negotiable for new partners. He describes a culture that rewards independence and drive - and expects associates to own cases, not just take instructions.

We wrap up with Richard’s thoughts on competition, the evolution of the Magic Circle, and what comes next. He shares why he sees massive potential in using AI to stay ahead, why he isn’t afraid of giant mergers, and why after 17 years he still feels like there’s much more to build.

Chapters

00:40 Launching Quinn Emanuel London in 2008

04:00 Building a Litigation-Only Practice from Scratch

07:20 Marketing that Actually Works: Cold-Calling and Door-to-Door Meetings

11:00 Winning Early Clients During the Financial Crisis

14:40 How the Firm Thinks About Talent and Compensation

20:00 Culture, Independence, and Entrepreneurial DNA

24:30 Perspectives on the Magic Circle and Big Law Competitors

29:30 The Role of AI and the Future of Litigation

33:40 Leadership Lessons from 17 Years at the Helm

Running legal at a hypergrowth tech company: Figma's international legal head Jonathan Keen on AI, expansion and EU red tape

Tuesday, June 24, 2025 • Duration 31:24

In this episode, we speak with Jonathan Keen, head of international legal at Figma - one of the fastest-growing SaaS companies in the world. Jonny leads legal across EMEA, APAC, and Japan, supporting the business through constant product innovation, geographic expansion and a rapidly evolving regulatory landscape.

He shares what it’s really like to be the legal lead at a hypergrowth company, from negotiating major enterprise SaaS deals to navigating complex EU tech regulation. Jonny gives a behind-the-scenes view of how his team supports global scale, and what he looks for in the external law firms Figma relies on.

We also dive into legal tech and AI, and why Jonny cares more about lawyers who understand tech than what tools they use. He shares his view on how AI is impacting in-house teams, and what traits set great in-house lawyers apart.

Chapters

00:40 Jonny’s role at Figma

02:00 What legal looks like inside a rocketship

04:00 A typical day (if one exists)

06:30 Enterprise SaaS negotiations: fast and slow lanes

08:40 How legal supports the business without breaking it

10:00 Working with law firms: what matters

12:30 AI and legal tech at Figma

15:00 The EU regulatory wave

18:00 The compliance burden for mid-market companies

20:00 In-house vs private practice: what AI disrupts

23:00 What he looks for in new hires

25:00 Judgement, humility and curiosity

27:00 Advice for lawyers considering a move in-house

29:30 The future: what’s next for Jonny

About Non-Billable

How ex-Freshfields lawyer Richard Mabey built Juro into one of Europe’s top legal tech startups: unlearning lawyering, agentic AI in legal and the future of junior lawyers

Tuesday, June 17, 2025 • Duration 47:24

In this episode, we sit down with Richard Mabey, the co-founder and CEO of Juro. A former Freshfields lawyer, Richard left private practice in 2013 to pursue an MBA and later joined LegalZoom, before launching Juro in 2016. Nearly a decade on, the company is now one of Europe’s leading legal tech startups, helping fast-scaling businesses automate their contract processes and manage legal work with a radically different approach.

Richard talks candidly about his founder journey - from teaching himself to code in the early days, to building a company that's now helping hundreds of legal teams deploy AI agents directly into tools like Slack and Microsoft Teams. We dig into how Juro thinks differently about contract lifecycle management, why Mabey believes the next generation of legal work will be agent-led, and what it really takes to get lawyers to embrace automation.

We also cover why Mabey thinks legal teams are being asked to do more with less, how agentic AI is already substituting junior-level tasks, and why the CLM category may be ripe for consolidation. Whether you're building legal tech, working in-house, or trying to understand what the future of legal work might look like, this episode is full of insight from one of the sector’s most thoughtful founders.

Chapters

00:30 Introduction: From Freshfields to Founding Juro

03:44 Starting Small: Building a Legal Tech Community

07:00 What Scale-Up GCs Really Care About

10:15 The Lawyer’s Role in an AI-First World

13:52 The Impact of Agentic AI on In-House Teams

17:05 The Training Problem for Junior Lawyers

21:10 The End of the Law Firm Pyramid?

24:30 How Juro’s Agents Actually Work

27:48 Replacing Low-Value Work with Automation

30:33 From Founder Doubts to Product Inflection

Inside Perkins Coie’s London play: City veteran Ian Bagshaw on launching a US firm in a crowded market, attracting the best talent, and the rise of private capital

Tuesday, June 10, 2025 • Duration 39:13

Ian Bagshaw is a City law private equity partner now heading up the London office of US law firm Perkins Coie which he launched in 2024. A highly experienced corporate lawyer with nearly 30 years in the field, he is recognised for his leadership in the private equity market at both UK and US law firms.

Before joining Perkins Coie, he was co-head of private equity at White & Case, where he built one of London’s top private equity practices. Before that, he held senior roles at Linklaters (co-head of private equity) and was also a partner at Clifford Chance.

In this conversation, Ian discusses his return to law to lead Perkins Coie's launch in London, emphasising the strategic timing and focus on tech clients and founders. He shares insights on building a startup culture within the firm, the importance of talent experience, and the impact of private capital on the legal industry. Ian outlines his vision for the future of Perkins in Europe, highlighting the need for a differentiated approach in a competitive market.

Chapters

00:40 Introduction to Perkins Coie and London Launch

06:10 Focus on Tech Clients and Founders

13:10 Building a Startup Culture in a Law Firm

17:50 Training and Development Strategies for Talent

19:10 Vision for Perkins Coie in the Next Decade

22:20 Private Capital’s Impact on Big Law

28:44 Investment Dynamics and the Future of Law Firms

34:25 The Changing Landscape of Legal Practice

37:20 Advice for Junior Lawyers

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

How A&O Shearman's legal tech incubator helps keep it ahead in the innovation game - with Shruti Ajitsaria, head of Fuse

Tuesday, May 27, 2025 • Duration 37:31

Shruti Ajitsaria is a partner at A&O Shearman and the head of Fuse, the firm’s legal tech incubator. Since launching Fuse in 2017, Shruti has helped A&O engage with over 60 startups, run dozens of pilots, and turn legal tech from a buzzword into a real driver of value for both lawyers and clients.

In this conversation, Shruti shares how she went from credit derivatives lawyer to leading one of the legal industry's most ambitious innovation programmes. She explains how Fuse works behind the scenes, why A&O Shearman was willing to take a risk on her idea, and what separates the legal tech startups that scale from those that stall.

We also get into how the merger with Shearman & Sterling is expanding Fuse’s reach, what clients really expect from law firms when it comes to tech, and why true innovation in legal isn’t just about adopting tools, but creating a culture that’s open to change.

Whether you’re a founder looking to partner with firms, a lawyer curious about the future of your role, or just someone interested in how a 100-year-old organisation builds like a startup - this conversation is well worth a listen.

Chapters

00:40 From Credit Derivatives to Legal Tech

03:20 How Fuse Was Born

06:17 Launching Fuse and Becoming Partner

08:15 What Makes a Startup Right for Fuse

09:40 Inside the Incubator: How Startups Work with A&O

12:00 Definely, StructureFlow & Building Success Stories

14:23 The Anatomy of a Great Legal Tech Founder

17:50 Fuse’s Impact Inside the Firm

20:41 Legal Tech as Strategy

22:25 Innovation Starts at the Top

26:26 The A&O Shearman Merger and US Expansion

28:23 What Clients Expect in 2025

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The Non-Billable Podcast – Details, episodes & analysis

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