Explore every episode of the podcast The Messy City Podcast

Nothing is more enjoyable to me than talking with people who actually get s*it done. Policy and philosophical talk is all well and good, but it gets boring really quickly when it can’t connect to the real world.

Bob Mayer and Caleb Buland are two of the partners at Exact Architects in Kansas City, MO. Sure, they’re right down the street from me. But they’ve also had an impressive run in recent years in being successful with historic rehab projects particularly in the Kansas City market.

Bob and Caleb attack the problem from very different backgrounds. Caleb is another architect turned developer, which is a story I always love to share. Bob started out with a public administration and advocacy background, eventually becoming a local expert in economic development. Their website headline is, “architects who read a pro forma.” I love that.

One of the core aspects of their projects is how they get projects to market in a “more affordable” price range, which has been a great strategy for them from a leasing standpoint. And, they work closely with local entrepreneurs to help them be successful in their commercial ventures.

Exact Architects is an established firm in this market, but you also get the sense they’re really just getting started. It’s a story I think can be replicated in markets all over the country.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

For a lot of years, I’ve been a bit loathe to dive deep into the land value tax topic. I’m not entirely sure why that is - it might be that the proponents have a sort of religious zeal for it. LVT seems to be a possible cure-all for all that ails our cities and towns, and I suppose it reminds me of the expansive view of New Urbanism in the early years. As my friend John Anderson used to say, New Urbanism won’t solve tooth decay - it’s just a better way to design and build communities.

This, I suppose, in my Midwestern reluctance to make broad, sweeping statements, is also true of land value tax. It simply seems like a much better way to assess property, and better align the incentives of owners with those who want to see a place improve. It won’t solve world peace, nor will it be a salve for every problem of mankind. But, it does seem pretty darn smart.

Lars Doucet graciously joins me to talk through the basics of land value tax, and also answer some questions from a property tax skeptic (me). Lars has a terrific Substack that dives much deeper, called Progress and Poverty. Check it out.

If I have but one wish through all this, it’s for people to understand your property taxes are a two-part formula. It’s your assessment x your millage levy or levies. One is fairly technical, and the other is very political. Know the difference, and know where to direct your anger should you be upset with your local tax bill. And keep in mind, there might just be a better way to do the assessment.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

I first came across Chris Arnade with the rollout of his book, “Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America.” It’s a terrific book, and explores community, human struggle and American cities and towns in ways that most books do not. He sort of became “the McDonald’s guy” after that book, but it’s really so much more.

Over the last few years, Chris has been writing a Substack called “Chris Arnade Walks the World.” I might effusively compliment Chris too much in this episode, but I truly mean it. His writing and approach to writing is truly unique, often surprising and always interesting. In a certain way, Chris’s writing has filled a void, for perhaps just me personally, that was left by the death of Anthony Bourdain. Now, that may seem a strange comparison, and Chris might not even enjoy it.

But what Bourdain often did was to use food (and later martial arts) as a lever to trying to understand people better all over the world. As time went on, he also explored more and more places off the beaten path as he sought understanding beyond the travel magazines or websites, or beyond what most of us see when we travel internationally.

Food and cooking is not Arnade’s schtick, but his writing (and photography) follow his own curiosity about people and culture that I see as a bit analogous to Bourdain. Arnade is looking through his own lens, and his own unique set of curiosities, but as a reader, I feel it still converges on striving to more deeply understand humans. And as someone who also occasionally writes about walking, I find a strong connection to this approach.

In this episode, we cover some of the ground and topics that Arnade frequently covers, and diverge to talk more about places that surprise him, and what his travels have taught him about life in the USA. I hope you enjoy.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

For most of my career, people in the urban planning, architecture and development world have almost completely avoided the discussion on crime and order in cities. We seem to like to pretend it’s either not important, or we have nothing to say about it beyond CPTED (Crime Prevention through Environmental Design) techniques. In many cases, I just have people hand-wave the issue away, as if it doesn’t really matter - “crime will happen no matter what, I’m not an expert,” blah blah blah. Let’s talk about zoning standards and street design instead.

Today I discuss why this issue needs to be front and center, especially now as most suburbs build out their own downtowns and walkable neighborhoods. I discuss the importance of seeing your own city as others see it, and what the actual marketing proposition is for living in a city.

I admit for most of my life, I have not cared enough nor focused enough on this issue. I’ve probably had the same, very typical attitudes you see in the professional, urban world. That’s simply no longer the case, as I’ve gotten much more of an insider’s view, and as my own city has suffered through demand destruction due almost primarily to this problem. And, it’s not unsolvable, either. Many of the solutions just involve making this a clear priority, and getting everyone focused on it as a team. Perhaps I’ll dive more into that in the future. For now, I rant.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

You might wonder how a podcast on urban planning, design and development could get interested in the arcane subject of property taxes. Except that, it’s all over the news lately, and its another fundamental issue than actual normies care about. People in my city have left it because of outrageous tax re-assessments. Developers and investors won’t invest in my County because of the same. And, frankly, we are a fairly no-drama, modest cost part of the world compared to many places.

So I turned to Jaime Izurieta to start this conversation. Over at his Substack, The Vertical Sidewalk, Jaime recently authored a piece called “When the Levy Breaks,” which is a thorough introduction to how we got here with property taxation. I found the history incredibly interesting, and as a good a starting point as any for diving deep into this topic.

As Jaime likes to say, “We don’t know that our way of doing this is the best. And we don’t know it isn’t.” But if we don’t start by understanding how we got here, we’ll never understand how to move forward.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Returning champion Aaron Lubeck joins me to discuss his exceptional piece called, “Revisiting Euclid v. Ambler at 100,” which he posted on his Substack “On Housing.” Aaron also posts and helps curate “Southern Urbanism” - an excellent publication I highly recommend.

While a lot of ink has been spilled and words shared about the impact of the Euclid v Ambler case, Aaron’s column adds some new wrinkles and information to it that even surprised me. We talk in some detail about the case itself, the arguments made, and the people you might be surprised that were considered the “out” groups in that era. We also talk some about what a post-Euclid world could look like, and the implications for the planning profession.

Because Aaron and I can’t stop at just one topic, we also hit on some of the perverse consequences of building and energy codes, and how “The modern world destroys all that cannot be quantified” as he states. Oh also, Mel Brooks at 100, and the need for more satire in our lives. Enjoy.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Architect, Author, Photographer and New Urbanist Steve Mouzon joins me to tell his story about the emergence of New Urbanism in a location that many would consider unlikely. Huntsville, Alabama might be known for Space Camp, but it’s not widely known as a place to find great urban design and architecture. And that’s a shame, because there’s more lessons to learn here for most cities than by flying to a big, coastal market.

Steve talks about the emergence of the Village of Providence in the early 2000s, its unique characteristics, and how that project also influenced the rebirth of downtown Huntsville. He also shares some of his own travails and triumphs, asking “why not us?” For more on Steve’s work, please do check out his incredible resource at The Original Green.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

We bring back my brother Dean on this episode, to talk about how we often let our fears overrun our lives, and how to get beyond them. Dean is not just one of my favorite humans on the planet, he’s also a clinical psychologist, author of a number of books on the Mississippi River, and a world traveler. His newest book, “Better Safe than Sorry: Slow Boats, Chicken Buses, and the Radical Choice to Trust the World” is coming out in late August.

For people who care about their communities and often wrestle with the fear of change, understanding what drives us and the psychology behind fear is essential. But even more so, we must understand how we can take steps to help people overcome those fears. Dean’s latest book is a study in how someone can gradually, incrementally overcome deep-seated worries or fears. He writes about how difficult it was for him to take risks as a young adult, and how over time that gave way. More importantly, he shares examples of how leaning into discomfort can frequently result in some of the greatest joys of life.

I often ask when it comes to change in cities, “what are we really afraid of?” And I’m not trying to be dismissive - some change really can be for the worse. American cities have seen a lot of that in the 20th century, especially with massive urban renewal efforts. But it’s also true that most of our fears are unfounded, or rooted in something deeper. We like change, but we don’t like change. Or, we want a certain kind of change. And yet, our messy lives change whether we want them to or not. Dean’s book and our conversation tries to help people to not let fear rule your life, so that you might truly enjoy it.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

It’s very easy for all of us to get caught up in status quo bias. We live the way we do, it must be fine, right? The way things are surely is the way they’ve been for a very long time, and probably got this way for good reasons. Or so we think, if we think about it at all.

I think about this a lot when I think about how we finance, design and build infrastructure. Sitting here in 2026, we have so many assumptions about the way things have always been, and that what we’ve landed on is the best way. But is it, really?

For these, questions, I turned to brothers Vince and Geoff Graham. Vince and Geoff are true Renaissance men. They’re developers who have developed some of the most beautiful and inspirational communities of the last few decades. Those include Newpoint, in Beaufort, South Carolina and I’On in Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina. Both were wildly successful examples of New Urbanism, and showcased that we are still capable of building timeless, traditional places.

But beyond their development endeavors (which continue, in less talked-about projects), they are both deeply curious and knowledgable about a wide range of topics. They’ve got a depth of understanding of history that is unique, and ask all the right, and hard, questions about the way we do things. We dive into a fair amount of American history in this episode, but I hope you’ll see how it all ties together with our difficult conversations today about infrastructure, community, and much more.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

I get personal in this episode, in order to ask questions about the nature of what is called the “housing crisis.” Are we all just doom-pilling way too much?

As a case study, I talk through the life and history of my parents, and discuss whether or not their life and lifestyle is still available today. I discuss house sizes, mortgage rates, lifestyle choices, lifestyle inflation, and more.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

AI Transcript

Introduction

Welcome back to The Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I’m going to do something a little different today and just talk without a guest about the topic of housing in particular and how it ties into a few other kind of hobby courses of mine.

Why Challenge the Housing Narrative

Really what I want to spend some time doing is taking a contrarian view of how we talk about the so-called housing crisis. And in one sense, this is kind of fun for me to do. One of the things I really loved about my father is when we would have our discussions or debates in the family about various things that were going on, he would often take an opposite view of Almost just for the sport of it. And the truth is, there are a lot of times he was so good at it, you didn’t really know if he felt that way or not. Because he could do really well to argue multiple sides of an argument. And that was really a lot of fun. It was an education for me. It’s something I wish more people would just do generally and try to see an issue from multiple perspectives and try to steel man different perspectives or perspectives that are different from your own. And so I’ve kind of taken to obviously do that if you know me at all.

You know I’ve done that a fair amount in my own life. Not nearly as good as my father was at it, but it has been fun to do occasionally. And I really wanted to apply this to the topic of housing. And there’s a couple of reasons for this. And this also ties into a story. I’m going to tell you a little bit of a story about my parents and how they grew up and their trajectory through life, because I think it’s actually very relevant to this topic. And whether or not we have a housing crisis at all in America, or if we do, what is the actual nature of of that crisis. And I want to talk about this because I just see so much online and in person conversation that I just feel like there are too many people, especially too many young people that have been kind of doom pilled on life today and life in America generally.

And the thing that I want to start out that I really want to propose to everybody and talk about is the life that my parents had And their trajectory through life is still available today. It is absolutely and unequivocally still available to anyone who wants to choose the life that they lived. And in my opinion, obviously, I knew them really well. In my opinion, they had a tremendous life. They had a great life. They’ve both passed on in recent years. And so I have to talk in the past tense. But by any measure that matters, they had a great life. They lived well into their 80s. They had four kids. We actually all like each other. So it’s not just like a, you know, there are some families where you can say, well, I love my family. But as my brother used to say, or after my dad passed, he would say, you know, that... We didn’t just love our parents, we really liked our parents.

And I think if you’re fortunate to be in a family like that, you know a little bit of what I’m talking about. And the four of us as children all... We get along. We’re still all friends with each other and get along. We enjoy being together. We’re all very different people with different interests and different worldviews. In some senses, we had pretty different childhoods, interestingly enough, because there’s a big age spread in our family. So my parents had four kids that they raised. They had a long, stable marriage. They were able to get consecutively better houses as they aged. And then by the time they hit retirement age, they had saved enough money to be able to do other things that they wanted to do. Along the way, they traveled when they wanted to. They really wanted to get out and see the country, see the world.

When we were young, that traveling mostly involved just driving around the United States and going to national parks and big cities and seeing the sights. As they got older and had a little bit more disposable income, they would join tour groups and go or sometimes with family to foreign countries and places they really wanted to visit. And I want to give you some context because my parents were not people that grew up with money at all. And I’m going to share some of this because I think it’s important to understand. How they came to be where they were and some of the choices they made and how it might impact choices that young people especially could make today.

My Parents’ Story

My mom grew up very poor. She spent a part of her childhood living in a housing project in Syracuse, New York. And she was one of five kids and they, you know, her whole childhood they never had any money for much of anything. And they often lived in not the greatest part of town, in Syracuse, even when they got out of the housing project. And my dad grew up in a small town in Kansas called Baser, which is just outside the Kansas City area. But at the time when he was growing up, it was a dusty little town of like 600 people. And, again, one of five kids. And his dad was an auto mechanic, had his own garage, but also just, you know, like people do in Little Towns, did a little bit of everything. He drove a school bus. We helped out with the mail. We did a lot of different things in the town. But it’s not like they ever really had any money.

My Uncle George, one of my dad’s brothers, used to say that they were all poor, but they didn’t know it. And part of that is the nature of living in a small rural community. They had a lot of spare time and freedom to roam. And so they probably were able to, you know, occupy themselves with a lot of things that maybe other kids weren’t. My mom’s father, my mom’s parents had a really difficult marriage. My grandfather, her father basically worked in a deli in Syracuse and he And so he worked in a Jewish deli. He was a very, very personable guy, made a lot of his own, made his own corned beef and bagels and everything. And a lot of the customers liked him, but it’s not like he ever really made a lot of money. And he and his wife, my grandmother, had a really difficult time, eventually ended up divorcing.

And my parents ended up meeting each other in sort of a star-crossed romance that I don’t really have time to tell the entire story. But it ended up that they met when my mom was visiting a friend in Leavenworth, Kansas. And... Not too long after that, a romance ensued and eventually a marriage. My parents were born in 1935 and 36, so they’re not boomers. They’re sort of, I guess, what you would call as greatest generation. But they were too young to be deeply invested in the Great Depression or World War II. They were little kids, really, when all that was going on. So I guess in a sense what you could say is they had the cultural memory of those things. They grew up understanding what life was like in the Great Depression. They grew up poor. They grew up during the war and they knew all that that was going on and they were very well attuned to it, but they weren’t part of it.

And I think like a lot of people who grew up in that era, they were really affected, especially by the poverty of what was happening. So one of the things that we used to always say about my mom is she could stretch a nickel like anybody’s business. She was frugal her entire life. And that really came from growing up with ne…

Eric Kronberg is back again, to dive deeper into the topics of housing choice, scale and essentially - what works and what doesn’t. Eric’s firm, Kronberg Urbanists & Architects, produces some of the routinely best graphic content to explain these complex issues. In this episode, in particular we discuss his updated Housing Choice Catalog, which is a tour de force of a document for anyone remotely interested in these issues.

We discuss how to implement change, what some of the more important changes, are, and how to do this in real American towns and places. We also hit on one of my favorite topics, which is a discussion of what scales more quickly: small-scale infill or large multifamily/mixed-use projects.

If you stick with us, you’ll also learn about the model to have a successful neighborhood center built around Homer Simpson’s favorite things.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Stand by for a very Kansas City-focused episode. For this one, Abby Newsham and I were invited to record a live podcast during KC Design Week, at the Kansas City Art Institute. Abby now hosts the Unconventional Urbanism podcast.

While there’s some inside baseball in here for Kansas City people, we also cover issues that are germane to cities all over, including:

* development / redevelopment issues in urban core communities

* elimination of minimum parking regulations

* creating high-value pedestrian amenities

* catalytic large projects

* why it’s important to have a growth mentality

* the critical issue of public safety in urban communities

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

The tale of Route 66 might seem like just a tale of freedom on the road, the great American desire for exploration, and our love affair with the car. And it is all that. But it’s also much more. It’s about the cities, towns and unique places all along the route and their stories.

Chris Elisara and John Paget are sharing those stories, in a 100th anniversary documentary about Route 66. I happened to catch up with them in Springfield, Missouri, which is where Route 66 was in some part given birth.

Chris and John own First and Main Films, and have their own love affair with telling stories of underdog cities and towns. We crossed paths originally with the New Urbanism Film Festival, which has now evolved into something much bigger called the Better Cities Film Festival, based in Detroit.

Be sure to catch their work about Route 66, something that has occupied them for something close to a lifetime, and which tells us so much about America’s history and our cities and towns.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Sometimes a local story is just that - a local story. And sometimes it transcends. Yes, Mike Zeller is very much rooted in Kansas City, and this is a very local story about how to take advantage of our long-overlooked river assets.

But this story is really so much more than all that. This is about finding value in what other people might not see; about perseverance; about not giving up when so many others would on a “crazy” idea.

More than anything, this is about not giving up on yourself. The Rock Island Bridge in Kansas City may indeed become a local landmark - I believe it’s well on the way. But this is so much more about having confidence in yourself and your ideas, and not assuming the “experts” and the “professionals” have it all figured out.

How many times have you said, “someone should do something with that?” Maybe that someone is you.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Every so often, an idea comes along that makes so much sense it makes you wonder - why haven’t we been talking more about this? In that vein comes today’s guest, Eli Smith, who is pioneering something called the Faith-Based Housing Initiative.

Eli describes it well, but there’s a fascinating juncture here of issues related to churches and faith institutions of all kinds; the societal issues around loneliness; and the lack of housing - especially meaningful, community-based housing.

Eli and his partners help cohorts of faith-based institutions in certain markets to identify how they can develop housing themselves, often on excess land they aren’t using. While this runs up against a whole other set of issues that churches and temples face, it offers a glimpse at something very hopeful as well.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Zach Molzer is 25, and he wants you to know that’s an advantage. His team is young, energetic, and optimistic. His story of quickly becoming a developer with impact in Kansas City shows us that you don’t need to have decades of experience. You just need to want to do it badly, and get others excited about your vision.

In just a couple of short years, Zach has created a company, undertaken two very complex redevelopment projects, created a huge presence on social media, built a bus stop out of an actual bus, connected with local elected officials, and is gearing up for much more. I hope you find inspiration in how Zach relates to us, that you can just do things. You don’t need permission, you don’t need the approval of a committee - you can just decide to do something, and pursue it relentlessly.

For those of us that are frequently skeptical of the value of social media, Zach also offers a lesson in how to use the technology to great advantage. Check out his Twitter/X page or YouTube for more.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Bobby Fijan doesn’t want you to give up on families living in cities. One thing he said in this episode that really stuck out with me, “People tolerate disorder less when kids are around.” I think that’s right on, and that we too easily acquiesce to the notion that cities are just for the young, or the retired.

Bobby, like many of my guests, isn’t content to just talk about the issues. He’s become relentless in his pursuit of the best family-friendly floor plans for urban living, and has now taken that to the creation of the American Housing Corporation. Their motto might as well be, “rowhouses for all.” Bobby and his partners are pursuing true vertical integration of a nationwide development company, with the goal of doing really great urban infill housing. Can they do it? I wouldn’t bet against them.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Social media is an unlikely place to find truly positive and optimistic people. But occasionally you find one. Today’s example: the charming and determined Coby Lefkowitz, whose relentless optimism can only rub off on you.

Coby is a developer in New York state, and a prolific writer, poster and speaker on the value of beauty in the built environment. He’s written a book called “Building Optimism” and has a Substack by the same name. In his Substack, you can read more about his forthcoming project in Kingston, NY, and what all he’s trying to accomplish.

Coby and I discuss the role of optimism in a longer, healthier life, whether or not building beautifully is actually more expensive, and the intriguing benefits of thinking of your social media audience as just yourself and your Mom. Coby’s story is also a great example of how a young person can gain valuable experience working for someone else for a few years, grinding it out, and refining your skills before embarking on your own.

You can find Coby on X/Twitter here.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

We take a break from our routine conversations today to have some fun, and talk about the wonders of travel hacking with my sister, Cindy Weir. Cindy epitomizes how to really leverage having a system for travel hacking, as she made the most of her small business to rack up points. It’s paid off incredibly for her, as she’s traveled to 22 countries in just the last five years, in addition to doing so in style.

We go over how she got there, some of the many little tips and tricks we’ve learned over the years, and even share insider knowledge on airline lounges, lodging, and more.

Are you someone that loves to travel? Do you own a small business or have an active side hustle? If you can say yes to both of those, then you need to listen to how Cindy it, and you can as well.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Longtime friend-of-the-pod Abby Newsham returns, on her hiatus from the popular Upzoned podcast. Abby is a practicing planner in Kansas City with Olsson Associates. Abby is very active working with communities leading planning charrettes, and we talk at length about what a charrette actually is, the value of it, and why doing charrettes can actually give you hope that people can solve problems together.

Then we talk about Billy Cooney’s article that was republished in Southern Urbanism, called, “Zoning Won’t Save Us,” which is basically on piece on why we over-rely on technocratic solutions to problems that are actually very human. I might say, you can’t solve a culture problem with a technical manual.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

One of the perils of being in a profession or field for many years is how you see beyond simple dualities. By that I mean, you hear people argue confidently and vehemently about X vs Y, but you know there’s actually a Z they’re not even thinking about. Sometimes people talk about this as a “third way” solution. I confess that my whole life and career I’ve mostly been interested in those “third” ways, since I find they tend to have much more wisdom and insight than the other two.

This came to mind recently when I was very kindly asked to speak with a group from ULI-Nashville about starter homes - the need, the barriers and the solutions. Because I can’t help myself, I opted to talk more about what I think we mean by starter homes, and some options for them that don’t get enough play in the conversation.

This episode is a longer version of that talk, including the three different ways I look at starter homes. The issue is very timely, and it’s critical. We’re having a terrible time getting people into home ownership right now. A lot of this I covered in a previous conversation with Charlie Bilello, on the financial causes and barriers. But I’m at heart still an architect, so I think a lot about buildings and building types as part of this, and search for ways to talk about the problem in concrete terms.

Let me know what you think in the comments. What type of starter home do you wish to have, or did you have? How about your parents and grandparents? What is truly missing in the marketplace, and how do we get to solutions in your opinion?

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

One of the great trends in housing from recent decades has been the revived interest in micro-communities, especially those organized around shared courtyards. I first started to learn about this in the late 1990s, and am delighted to say it’s really picked up steam since then.

Ross Chapin has been at the forefront of all this, and taught many of us how to do it well. In this episode, Ross talks about how in some sense he accidentally got into doing this kind of work, how it changed his practice, and then importantly we explore key approaches to design and details that make it all work.

Ross likes to say, “If you’re in your happy place, you’re going to sing.” But do we achieve that just by lining up a bunch of buildings around a lawn space? No, the details really matter, and Ross takes us through how to balance security and connection, how to think about layers of space, and how to design small homes and spaces that feel great.

Every once in a while, I get in trouble with diehard YIMBY (Yes In My Backyard) activists because I insist that design of housing matters, and we need to build housing that actually satisfies human needs. Yes, we need to make it vastly easier to build just about everything. But too often we overlook human well being, and ignore aspects of our human nature that determine success or failure in new developments. Ross Chapin has blazed a path for all of us to better understand this all. Take a listen.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Jason Segedy returns for his third appearance on the show, as Jason now works in North Canton, Ohio as the Deputy Director of Administration. Jason has also gotten more active on LinkedIn in recent months, with his usual provocative and insightful thoughts on a variety of topics. I highly suggest you look him up!

We hit on why a huge supply of older homes may not be an advantage, especially in a weak housing market, the challenges of population decline (and why people shouldn’t be so blase about it), and what it might take to actually recruit people to the region. We also manage to discuss my pet issue as it relates to the management of cities - at what scale is best for communities to operate? What’s it like on the inside, working at larger and smaller scales?

Jason is also always thoughtful on the big picture and what he sees happening in the culture and the country. We talk about why he thinks this is a big moment for a lot of change.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

After three years of podcasting, I share some thoughts on why I do this, and what I hope to achieve and share. Maybe you like it, maybe you don’t - either is fine, really. But my focus is and will continue to be on people who take concrete action, not on obsessive policy wonkery. It’s not that policy wonkery doesn’t matter - it’s just that too many people waste too much time focusing on it, when life has so many more productive ways to pass the day or the years.

Similarly, my focus is on the so-called Flyover Country. It’s what I care about, it’s what I love, it’s the people and places I want to succeed. If that’s not your cup of tea, if that limits the reach of this Substack and podcast, that’s just fine. It’s not possible to be all things to all people, and each of us has to find where to direct our intentions. In this episode, I share a story about St. Joseph, Missouri, and how it ties to this focus and a mindset of what really makes a difference in life.

Live your life somewhere that needs you and wants you.

Build things. Create life and activity. It’s what we are meant to do.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

For a guy that never intended to be a developer, Steve Nygren is having a remarkable impact on development and so much more. Steve led the development of Serenbe, which is a “biophilic” community southwest of Atlanta. This story is nothing short of remarkable. Even if nothing more had happened than getting 500+ property owners that control about 60 square miles of land to agree on a framework for future development, that alone would be incredible.

But when you start to learn more and experience the town of Serenbe itself, it becomes quickly apparent this is a model worth emulating. Serenbe employs a more historic model of a rural village that is walkable and fairly dense, mixed with land set aside for agriculture and experiencing nature. Along the way, the community has touched the world of regenerative agriculture and New Urbanism both, along with a deep dive into thinking about healthy living.

Steve talks about using your influence when you have the opportunity, and how to help the next generation. His book, “Start In Your Own Backyard: Transferring Where We Live with Radical Common Sense” dives deep into this philosophy and work. I would add, he’s also got a lot to share about how to bootstrap a large, master planned development.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

One of the mantras of small or incremental development workshops for years has been, “no one is coming to save you.” The solution to your neighborhood’s or community’s problem isn’t some outside force. It’s you.

A similar mantra has been, “Brooklyn doesn’t need your butt.” Make it more colorful at your own leisure. We are often attracted by the allure of the sexy place, but it’s the not-sexy places that really need time, attention and effort from people who care.

This episode gave me a chance to talk with someone who feels both those mantras deeply, and is doing something about it. Justin Pregont, from Pomeroy Development in Atchison, Kansas has taken up the mantle himself. He’s solving problems through real estate in his town, and in other rural towns across the state of Kansas.

Justin was eager to see the types of interesting buildings and tenants he saw in bigger markets in his own town. So after realizing no one else was going to do it, he decided to figure it out himself. There’s a lot of inspiration, and a lot of hard reality in this episode. Maybe you think, I live in California or New York or Florida - what can I possibly learn from someone in small-town Kansas? Give it a listen, and then let me know.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

One of the most shocking pieces of information I’ve seen in the last year is how high the average age of all homebuyers has become. Depending on the source, I’ve seen between 59 and 62 years old. This is the *average* age.

We’ve never seen a housing market quite like this, so I turned to Charlie Bilello, the Chief Market Strategist for the firm Creative Planning to help me understand it better. While I talk at length about the regulatory, design and policy aspects of housing on the podcast, Charlie is an expert in the financial side.

We trace a bit of the history of how we changed the idea of housing from shelter to a financial product, and then hit on how those policy changes have created the mess we are in today. Charlie has a wealth of ideas that are admittedly unpopular, but could go to great lengths to fix the housing market over the short and long term.

Along the way, we talk about fifty year mortgages, the impact of this issue on everyone under forty years old, the concentration of wealth with Baby Boomers, and why it’s so hard to make changes.

If you want more from Charlie, check out his excellent YouTube channel.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

About forty years ago, the New Urbanism came on the scene with bold and creative ideas for building entirely new towns. The founders of the movement intended to prove that we could really build beautiful, walkable new places in America, much like some of our historic norms. Those early communities captured incredible attention, far beyond their actual size. And they’ve influenced a couple generations of people in the planning and development world.

But it’s also true that most of the new places built were fairly modest in scale. Seaside, Florida, the famous community on the Florida panhandle, is just sixty acres in size. Many other new communities were the size of a suburban subdivision, or a smaller master-planned community. This isn’t a knock on the projects, it’s just the reality of what could be achieved and who the clients were.

In recent years, an even bigger and more audacious proposal has come forward called California Forever. The founders have acquired over 50,000 acres in the Bay Area in Solano County. I speak with Gabriel Metcalf, the Head of Planning, to discuss the plans for this new community - the whys, whats and hows. This is a massive effort, and one that’s intentionally trying to renew notions of what can be done in a state that’s become famously difficult in which to build.

Gabriel and I talk about not just the specifics of the proposed community, but how this effort fits into the historic context of new towns, and what he sees as precedents.

Can we still build new places in America that are inspiring and solve 21st century problems? And what do new towns say about our existing cities and their struggles? We discuss all this and more.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Andrew Burleson asks us to think about, “what is the system that creates space for people to live?” Systems thinking may seem terribly wonky, and in reality, it is. But systems thinking gave us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and a whole host of ideas that underpin western civilization. Systems thinking was behind the movement that created administrative city planning and zoning in the 19-teens and 20s. YOU might not be thinking about systems, but someone else is. So the question is, what kind of systems do we want and need, that produce the best outcomes for human beings?

Andrew is a man of many hats, not the least of which is he’s the Board Chair for Strong Towns. Beyond that, he’s a terrific thinker in his own right, and writes a Substack called The Post-Suburban Future. This episode is an outgrowth of a post he wrote called, “Could we create land use rules that work better for everyone?” If the episode intrigues you, read the post, too. He goes into even more detail with images there.

The main focus of our conversation is a notion I described a few years ago, which is we need to “unleash the swarm” to solve our housing and development issues. Andrew does an exceptional job of describing the problem (all development now is discretionary and professionalized), and that our land use regulations essentially require stasis. Stasis sounds comforting to many, but it actually works against our intentions when practiced in reality.

In this episode, we talk about how to de-professionalize housing, which is a phrase I really like, and how to drive incremental change by the context of a block or neighborhood. Andrew’s phrase that I love is, “the individual project is small, but the collective output is enormous.” As I reflected on that, it occurred to me that’s the entire spirit of the American experience, and one we’ve gotten away from to our detriment.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Right off the top, I must say I always enjoy talking with Seth Zeren. Seth fits the mold of most of my favorite people, in that he’s a deep thinker AND a do-er. His ruminations are baked in the reality of trying to actually build things every day of the week, and he operates from a deep set of principles for placemaking. In other words, he really tries to get things done and done well - not just talk about them. Oh how I wish more people in the world of “advocacy” could be like Seth and also get their hands dirty building and developing. But that’s a story for another day.

Seth wrote a piece on his Substack, Build the Next Right Thing, not long ago called “Two Great Tastes that Taste Great Together.” In that piece, he outlines what he sees as the strengths and weaknesses of both Strong Towns and the emerging Abundance movement, and how they can learn from and accentuate each other. I found it fascinating enough to want to talk about it all with him.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

A few months ago, we lost Leon Krier, one of the all-time greats in the world of architecture and urban design. I’m joined by Dan Parolek of Opticos Design to reflect on Krier’s work and influence, and his personal experiences working with him on multiple projects.

Krier’s work and his many drawings have been foundational for so many of us that came through the world of New Urbanism. His simple, elegant way of dissecting what’s wrong with modern cities angered a lot of people in the architecture and planning establishment, but appealed to so many of us that knew something was wrong. In the end, there’s almost nothing about Krier’s work that should be controversial. He approached everything from the perspective of what is actually good for human beings. He felt we could and should learn from the acquired wisdom of the past and generations of people before us. That any of that should be controversial says so much about the era in which we live and how the design professions have mutated over the years.

If you don’t know Krier, I hope this is an introduction. Please go check out his books. They’re incredibly easy to understand and read, and many are good for a laugh, too.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Chuck Marohn of Strong Towns joins me in the studio to dive deeply into the world of housing finance and housing policy, fresh on the heels of his book, Escaping the Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis. For an architect and engineer to dive into this world might seem anathema to economists, but we go there anyway.

The topics range from the thirty year mortgage and its distortions on the housing market to yield curve control to how social trust impacts the whole conversation. And we ask “do we actually have enough housing?”

Coming soon I’ll have an episode about Leon Krier and his impact on so many discussions for architecture, planning and design today, but for now Chuck and I talk about one aspect of his ideas: height limits. Naturally, we focus on how that plays out in Washington, D.C.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

I’ve been an avid podcast listener since the early days of podcasting. It’s probably one area where I was a bit of an early adopter for technology. My guess is this is in part due to the fact that I grew up listening to a lot of radio, especially radio shows in the car when my parents were driving. So I suppose you can say I’ve always been interested in the audio side of conversations and entertainment.

Back a few years ago, my brother finally nudged me into trying to do a podcast, after he’d gotten his started. His is all about the Mississippi River and the culture, environment and communities along it. Take a listen, it’s really good! He’s an incredible wealth of information about the river, and was even featured recently on Rick Steves’ podcast.

But when Dean got me started, I wasn’t sure exactly how this would go, or if I’d enjoy having a podcast. Now here I am a few years later, with thousands of subscribers, and a milestone in episode #100. It’s been a wild ride, and getting more enjoyable all the time.

So for this one, I decided to have some fun with two of my good buddies - Jason Carter-Solomon and Shomari Benton. Both have been on before, and both frequently offer great insights into life as well as the sorts of topics I delve into routinely - planning, development, design and small-scale real estate investment.

We take some time on this episode to look back at our own lives, and we get a little personal. They even bring the questions to me, as we discuss our “why” for doing what we do, talk about career regrets, and think about what the future holds for each of us. I hope you enjoy it - we had a lot of fun doing this episode.

Thanks so much for listening to these first 100 episodes.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

One thing that’s really obvious when you talk with Johnny Youssef is that he’s just a very positive and happy guy. And, frankly, it’s amazing what he’s accomplished at a still-young age. Johnny started his journey in Egypt, and eventually landed in Kansas City as a small developer and rental property owner. We talk about how he focused on the not-sexy parts of our region, and quickly built an income portfolio that has served him well.

Johnny is the closest thing to a social media star that I’ve had on the show. In fact, almost everything we talk about can be seen on his channels, and I’d certainly recommend checking out his videos. In particular, his story of buying and renovating and old church here in Midtown KC is fantastic.

There’s so much to learn from people like Johnny that just get in the game, take risks, and build. It’s a spirit we could use a lot more of, and in Johnny’s case I can’t wait to see what else he accomplishes.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Kevin’s note: Apologies on the audio quality. Riverside did something funky to this episode, and I did my best to correct it.

We all love to study success, and learn how to emulate it. Allan Branch likes to study failure. He studied it for his businesses, and for his city. Remarkably, it’s helped lead Allan to a lot of success in all his endeavors.

Allan traces his roots from art school and family entrepreneurship to software and building businesses, to literally building buildings in his hometown. Of course, that’s not enough, so Allan decided to run for Mayor as well. And won.

There are Allans in every city and town in America. And yet, very few of them actually have his success, or take the initiative to help fix local politics. I wish more would, as we’d all be better for it.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Nolan Gray is the author of the very successful book, “Arbitrary Lines: How Zoning Broke the American City and How to Fix It.” If you’re in the planning and zoning world, you’ve likely heard of it or read it. If you haven’t, run right out and do it.

Most of this episode focuses on the unique nature of Houston, Texas, and its approach to land use regulation. Often-scorned by planners because the city doesn’t have zoning, it actually provides a fascinating alternative to a process we know by now doesn’t work very well. And we dissect a few of the fears related to what might happen without zoning.

Nolan has a deep knowledge of the history of zoning, and we touch a bit on how things came to be in the US context. Trust me - it’s not as boring as it sounds, but it’s also really important to know that this is a fairly young idea and institution. My editorial comment has always been: this was all invented by other humans, not all that long ago, and we shouldn’t be so afraid of even radical changes. It’s not the Ten Commandments, folks.

We can dream of a repeal of Euclid v Ambler, even if we never get it. And who knows, we might even get to a result that’s actually more democratic in nature than what we have today.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

A developer colleague recently said to me, “I’ve only lived and worked in an era where cities are getting better. Now, I’m not so sure that’s the case anymore.” His comment along with a whole lot of other inputs got me to thinking - what if he’s right?

Today, I consider a potentially dark path for big American cities. Are we in the midest of a new era of decline and retreat from urban areas? Will this continue? Is the “vibe shift” going to be a good thing or bad thing for people that love and care about big cities?

So let’s get real, and discuss what it all could mean. I may do a future podcast taking the opposite view, but for now I think it’s important to consider the possible downsides of recent trends. Those include cultural forces, but also technological and economic changes, such as the advent of AI.

Come with me on a journey to the dark side…

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Mike Hathorne has been around the New Urbanism movement for over twenty years. That means he has that rare combination of idealism, practicality, and persistence. Nowadays, you can find Mike with Visionary Homes in Utah.

While the principles of New Urbanism have guided his work for years, Mike has also been on the front lines trying to figure out how to get it all built. Like all of us, he’s had successes and failures. But that desire to connect to truly human values and needs continues to drive him forward.

Mike and I talk about how the actual types of households in our communities are far more diverse than most realize. And, what that all means for people trying to build new housing. We pause for a minute to discuss the notion of why having diverse households in a neighborhood is actually a good thing, and how it helps communities.

The changes in household makeup over the last 70 years or so is very stark, and surprises many people. I’ve found that most people still assume the 2 parents with kids at home is still the dominant household arrangement. It’s not at all, and we take a look at the numbers. For anyone trying to build or develop, or anyone trying to improve their community, this is really important baseline information. We can all imagine that world we might want to have, but we must start and work with the world as it is.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

If you’re fortunate and diligent, you’ll encounter people in your field that are just supremely knowledgable about the details, and willing to talk about them. Audrey Navarro, the Managing Partner of Clemons Real Estate in Kansas City, is one of those people. I’ve found Audrey to be incredibly nice and pleasant to talk with, but also very ruthless (in a good way) with the numbers and the realities of real estate and development.

In this episode, we trace her path that started from a simple duplex house hack, to now running a company with hundreds of apartments, commercial properties and even a construction arm. I particularly love how she says, “We sell math, not buildings. If you can get creative with the math, you can do just about anything.”

Audrey and her firm have also endeavored to work in the “supportive housing” world, and we talk about the trials and tribulations, as well as the possibilities, for anyone taking on that ask. Lastly, we talk about WIRED, which is a very cool effort to encourage women to be more involved in the real estate business.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

You’re not going to find too many movies with developers as the hero. For most of the public, their opinion of developers is somewhere below Congress. And that’s saying something.

I find that all unfortunate, since developers are the ones who build virtually everything in our world - our homes, our offices, our shops, our entertainment. And there’s a group of developers who have been undertaking honestly heroic efforts for two or three decases - those trying to build “new urbanist” or walkable projects. Some of these are small, and some quite large, but they’re all challenging.

Ward Davis is one of those guys. He’s been at it in Northwest Arkansas for a couple decades now, and has all the scars to show it. He also has had a lot of success, and he’s someone worth learning from when it comes to the ins and out of development. His company is High Street Development, based in Fayetteville, and he pretty much works just in that very fast-growing region.

There are a LOT of gems in this episode, so I highly suggest you stick with my lousy audio recording to hear it all. Ward and I talk bout what their approach is with doing “town center” types of projects, how to make money doing it, what is wrong with the development business, and the promise but pitfalls of doing small-scale “incremental” development. In a certain sense, this is a great companion piece to my interview with John Zeanah from Memphis, as they both are trying to figure out how to change our many flawed systems, and get beautiful places built that stand the test of time.

I love how Ward says, “There's not a business in the country that looks easier from the outside and is more difficult on the inside.”

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

From Iain, whose excellent site you can find at this link:

The term 'messy' is a growing one when it comes to cities just now, and it's a refreshing one in what has for the last little while been the domain of the planner, who tends to see the world from the top down. But what makes cities, and indeed a lot of companies, so good is that they embrace what comes from the bottom up.

In cities that means what's happening on the street, and how the people are shaping it. In companies it means the front line staff or factory worker being empowered to make changes when they notice something.

Anyway, my most recent guest for Challenger cities was Kevin Klinkenberg who has been writing about The Messy City for a while now. So I loved hearing his stories of applying this in his own realm of Kansas City.

We talked art walks, roundabouts, neighbourhoods, backyard cottages and the trouble of trying to be neat, tidy and perfect all the time. I suspect people will be really into this one, and a bit thanks to Karen from Strong Towns for making the connection!

Usually when a Kansas Citian talks about Memphis, it’s to discuss their bbq vs ours. And trust me, they do make some good ribs on Memphis. But today we are here to learn about housing and redevelopment. The City of Memphis has taken some solid steps in recent years to reform all manner of codes and processes to enable more and better housing options. John Zeanah joins me to discuss the specifics.

There’s a lot in here for the policy wonks, and I’m here for it as well. But what I love the most is the attitude displayed by John, and his statement that they want to be problem solvers, not just regulators. What you hear from him is someone not content to check a box, do a plan and let it sit, or issue platitudes. This is what it looks like when people get their hands dirty, and truly work to fix issues that need fixing.

The episode I had with Emily Hamilton is a great companion to this one, where she went into detail on State-level reforms for housing policy.

For more, here’s John’s website.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Jed Byrne is a man of many hats, but what he really cares about is demystifying real estate development for ordinary people. Jed’s podcast, Dirt NC, focuses primarily on issues in North Carolina and especially the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill “Triangle” area.

Earlier this year, Jed and a group of people from the local Chamber visited the Kansas City region on a mission to learn from each other. I’m not sure they talked much basketball (Kansas - the birthplace of North Carolina basketball as the saying goes), but they did talk a lot about economic development. And while here, Jed had a chance to check in with our local small development group. We talk about why it’s important to have a local ecosystem of small developers like we have, and what he hopes to achieve by having one in the Triangle. Jed also has some insights on what it’s like to live in a fast-growing region, vs. the sort of slow and steady growth we have in most Midwestern markets.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

One of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.

Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and place-making.

Jaime’s book: “Main Street Mavericks”

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Today’s episode isn’t exactly Coughlin’s Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg’s Rules, but it is full of some life advice I’d like to share for the dog days of Summer. I’ve long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn’t easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.

Key link: Symphony in the Flint Hills

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

What's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That’s a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it’s also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren’t terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.

John Haigh, who’s the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison, Kansas, aims to do something about all this. You likely haven’t heard of Benedictine before, as it’s a small college in a small town in flyover country. But you might want to pay attention to what they’re doing now, and what is rumbling up from the grass roots in higher education.

We cover a lot in this podcast, including

* the importance of learning to draw by hand, in the computer age

* What is the impact of AI on the school and the students?

* Why this is happening in Catholic schools?

* can a college teach architects to become developers?

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Why is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn’t inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?

To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That’s a long title and way of saying, she’s someone who does a LOT of research into housing policy, and really knows her stuff.

I’ve been in this game long enough to be able to detect people who act like they’re serious about housing policy, but really aren’t. As in, they really don’t much about how housing gets built, who builds it, why they build it, and why they might build more. Emily is not one of those people. She has a clear interest in getting more of all kinds of housing built, to help with the price crunch that exists in so many markets.

If you want to talk code reform and housing policy, this is your episode.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Terrell Jolly didn’t start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.

TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri’s Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods that the vast majority of developers avoid, and why he takes on such a difficult task.

When I hear TJ talk, I think to myself, this is what our cities need. For a lot of cities in the Midwest in particular, we have a LOT of older homes and buildings that need renovation. We also have people who need affordable places to live. It’s people like TJ that figure out how to make it all economical, and are showing us a path towards something that can scale. But as he says, “you gotta have the guts.” It’s not easy. It’s not for the faint of heart. But it sure does have its rewards.

Every city probably has a Terrell Jolly, and every city could use about a dozen more.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building.

Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it’s often not how people in the world of economic development think. In particular, for modest-cost cities like Kansas City and much of the Midwest, affordability in housing has long been a value proposition. How do we retain that as times change, and as we grow? We discuss this, as well as working to improve disinvested parts of our city, and explore the notion of whether or not our urban core is actually growing.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I’m familiar with. For example, “growth doesn’t always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven’t kept pace with the times.”

Jeff Siegler is the man behind the account, and he’s built a nice little business on the backs of his tough love and his experience. He denies he’s the tough love guy, and he clearly is a likable person. But I’ll stick with the meme - I think what he does is try to snap people out of their slumber with some tough love. Jeff says people need to have hard conversations, because when you don’t, you end up disappointing vastly more people. I agree. Check out his book, “Your City is Sick,” and his website for more info.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”