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In this episode, I talked with Danielle Hughes, whose marketing is working so well that she's got too much good work with good budgets from good people. What to do? It's a good problem to have but not necessarily easy to solve. So we brainstormed solutions. If you like what you hear, we'd love it if you write a review, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Here's the transcript of the conversation:

ilise benun  

As you probably know, my mantra for this podcast is about avoiding the feast or famine syndrome. Of course, famine is to be avoided for obvious reasons, but what about feast? The idea of the feast is appealing but it has problems of its own. What do you do when your marketing is working so well that you're getting more good work from good people with good budgets than you can handle? Should you grow? Should you delegate? Should you hire an employee, or simply raise your prices? These are just a few of the questions I tackled with Danielle Hughes, who is in this enviable position. So listen and learn.

ilise benun  

Hello Danielle. Welcome back to the podcast.

Danielle Hughes  

Thank you, ilise, I'm excited to be a twofer.

ilise benun  

Exactly. And before we talk about what we're going to talk about, please give your most current elevator pitch.

Danielle Hughes  

Sure, I mean it's always a work in progress, but my name is Danielle Hughes. I am the self proclaimed Chief Personality Officer of More Than Words Marketing, and I help individuals and institutions bring more of themselves into their messaging through what I call creating your genuine personality brand.

ilise benun  

Beautiful, and that's been evolving and growing over the last couple of years that I've known you and it's been very exciting to see that because, you know, when we first got to work together, you were doing mostly copywriting. Right? 

Danielle Hughes  

Correct, yes. And very much just a freelancer, didn't even have the business at that time.

ilise benun  

And as many people know, the way I decide who's gonna be on the podcast is based on ideas. Basically, if someone comes to me with a really good idea, I generally say yes, especially if it's relevant to my listeners, who are creatively self employed people. So you came to me with an idea. What is your idea, Danielle?

Danielle Hughes  

So it's funny because I always listen to your podcasts, and you always talk about, your thing is about getting out of the feast or famine cycle. And I had this thought about what happens when it's all feast. And what do you do with that? It's something that I think we all kind of dream of, like, "Wouldn't it be great if I just have this steady flow of work that's pouring in all the time?" 

But what happens when that work is maybe too much or too good and what do you do with that? What do you do when you're just feasting all the time, and there's an endless feast?

ilise benun  

And so maybe before we get to that. Tell us a little bit about how you got to all feast. What kind of marketing, are you doing, that is generating the feast.

Danielle Hughes  

So a few things. I would say I am a constant networker. I have toned it down a little bit, but most people who follow me know that last year I had 240, face to face, or virtual face to face meetings during the pandemic. I'm in several networking groups. And I think that all of these relationships that I've been cultivating and the way that I position myself have just really started to pay off in recognition and awareness. And you know it's about relationships, right? So now I have this trust that people want to refer me for work. So that's one. 

The second piece is my newsletter which goes out twice a month, and allows me to stay in front of my audience, but more importantly it allows me to have a distinct point of view that really seems to be resonating with people. I think it's funny that "personality brand" was one of these first blog posts or newsletters that I wrote when we first started working together. It was just a concept. It wasn't meant to be my brand. And it's taken on a life of its own now and I feel like it's taken, two, three years for that to get into the ether, and for the world to start recognizing it. 

So I think it's the combination of networking and outreach that's kind of created this windfall of people coming to me with work all the time. 

ilise benun  

So, again, I have a few more questions before we get to the feast part, because what you just described is two of the three main marketing tools in the Simplest Marketing Plan: the strategic networking, and the high quality content marketing, which is your newsletter. 

I've been talking a lot with people lately about email newsletters and I constantly get the question about how often and how long. And in general, my answer is monthly is plenty and quarterly is a minimum; and shorter tends to be better. But yours works, obviously, and it's every other week and it's long, so talk a little bit about what works for you in that strategy.

Danielle Hughes  

I don't think as long. I think it's short. You know how they tell you how long a "read" is when you create a post? Well, most of mine are 1 to 2 minutes to read. So to me that's pretty short.

[Regarding frequency], I always tell my clients to do what you can commit to. And for me, monthly was actually too infrequent. I would quibble with you. I think most people should do at least monthly. I think quarterly -- why bother? You might as well just not do it at all. But for me, weekly felt too daunting and I didn't think I could commit to that; every other week just felt like something that I could bite off and chew. And as a writer I kind of feel like you should be able to put out content at least twice a month. That just feels like something that you should be willing and able to do. 

And it's just worked out for me as a cadence and most people think it comes out weekly, which is so funny -- because people who think I send it out every week, I keep telling them no it's not. But they're like, "I love your newsletters and look forward to them. I can't wait for Friday." And yes, I send them out on Fridays. I don't even know how that happened but I just started doing it on Friday and now I feel like I can't break from that. But I think this appearance that it comes more frequently is also really interesting, because I guess if somebody is looking forward to something they think they get it more often than they do.

ilise benun  

I don't know. I'm sure there is one of these mental blind spots and I can come up with about this perception of frequency. I'm going to have to look into that. but my newsletter, my Quick Tips, is also every other week and people think it's weekly so there is definitely something there.

Danielle Hughes  

Yeah, so maybe we're gaming the system. So you don't have to do it every week to get the weekly impression.

ilise benun  

I love that. And now let's just talk about the networking for a moment, because in the pandemic, a lot of people have said, "Oh, it's just so much harder to network in the pandemic because you can't be in person with people." But most of the people I'm in contact with have found it that much easier and I'm curious if you have to?

Danielle Hughes  

I think it's easier to find groups you can attend, because you don't have to physically go somewhere, right? So you can attend groups out of your area. For me, I'm in a weekly networking group that has 150 locations across the country. So in the beginning of the pandemic, I was popping into Texas and over to Colorado, New York and wherever. I live in New York City. So I do have a lot of opportunity here, but like the idea that you call in from your couch and reach more people, especially as either a service provider or product where you're not location based. I mean, the potential is so much more to expand your horizons. 

But I also feel like the pandemic for a lot of people created a need for connection. And so more people were willing to not only network but the most important thing -- networking is the irrelevant part -- it's the follow up to that face to face meeting that you have with someone where you get to know them and they get to know you. That's the most important piece because that's where you become memorable, you become this fully realized person, and you create that connection and you're physically still seeing them on the screen so you can get to read their energy. You get to kind of vibe and see if you're on the same page, and then that leads to them knowing people that you should connect with, you knowing people that they should connect with. So for me I felt like I was able to ramp up my networking, which I had already been doing anyway in just a bigger way.

ilise benun  

I want to connect the dots between the two marketing tools because most of the time I see people doing marketing, but not in a connected way. So when you say follow up, you're doing this to strategic networking, and then you're doing follow up. Is the newsletter part of how you follow up?

Danielle Hughes  

I mean, if people sign up for it. I probably should and could be better about asking people to sign up for my newsletter when I meet with them or when I do a face to face. I will find that a lot of times they do that on their own, either before or after we meet. I will see that there's a subscriber, and then I'll realize it's someone that I'm going to have a meeting with that day or that I just talked to. So it's not necessarily part of the follow up to the networking. 

To me the follow up to the networking is -- I take notes when we meet, and I think about -- there's something we call the three "i"s. Because you can always do an introduction. You don't always know somebody that you can refer when you chat with a new person, but you can provide information, whether it's an article you read, or just something that you find relevant. Or you can do an invitation, where you can invite them to another group that you belong to.

So I'm always thinking about how do I serve these people, even if I don't know someone that would be a good client for them? Usually I can be like, "I know a networking group that's looking for whatever you do and here's an introduction." 

Yesterday I talked to another writer and I belong to like two marketing type groups -- one's a Slack channel and one's an email -- and I said, "I'll hook you up with those," because she was looking for a job and people are always posting opportunities on there. So sometimes I just think it's, how can you expand what you offer outside of always thinking you have to make a referral or it's all about you? I don't usually go into these things trying to talk about myself. I usually go into them, trying to find out more about them, which of course creates more goodwill. They feel seen, and they're more likely to remember me, even though I probably spend less time talking about myself. And then they come to me when they need help with content.

ilise benun  

So that's you using curiosity as a marketing tool and generosity as a marketing tool. I just want to articulate and summarize what you just said about your follow up strategy, the three "i"s -- it sounded like introduction, information, invitation.

Danielle Hughes  

Introduction, information, invitation. Correct.

ilise benun  

All right, so all of this together has resulted for you in feast. I just want to say something about feast or famine first. I love alliteration -- feast or famine first -- because the ebb and flow is, to me, the nature of being self employed, especially the way you and I are. It is just up and down, unless we get a J-O-B. We are never going to have steady, steady work constantly. The only situation where you do is when you have that "gorilla" client who then provides everything you need, but is always potentially about to disappear. You just don't know. So I do think that the ebb and flow is natural but the feast or famine is very stressful. Could we say that one is better than the other? I don't know but I love the fact that you wanted to talk about the feast and how you handle it. So tell us a little bit about your feast.

Danielle Hughes  

I think that's what's so interesting is, like I said earlier, I think this is what we all kind of hope for, right? "I just want tons of work and people coming to me." I know when you and I talked a couple weeks ago, you're said, "You know, you can say no." But it's hard to say no when everything is a good opportunity. I'm at the point now, luckily, where things coming to me for the most part are almost always a good fit: the rates are good, the client is good, the material is good. So I'm having this conundrum -- how do I turn down work when still in my head, I'm thinking, "What if this stops one day?" even though it's been basically all systems go since last March. And this first quarter is my best first quarter ever. 

I still, you know, like most people -- like celebrities do this all the time, they always live in fear of running out of all their money, and that's what keeps them driving. And it's not that I have that per se. But I also feel like so many of the things coming to me, I actually want to do. I'm starting to have the quandary of, how do I take on all the things that I want to take on and what does that look like for my business?

And as you know, I did, last year, hire a virtual assistant, which has been instrumental for me in taking some of the admin off of my plate and helping me with a little bit of project management. I have a designer that I will tap into for my work and for some of my clients' work now. And I do have a couple of writers that I've used here and there. But I don't really have consistent help, and I think as I've been getting busier, that idea of what the scaling looks like: do I want to scale? do I want to bring on an employee, which I said I would never do, but everybody I talk to says it will change your life. 

And so it's just gotten my brain in so many directions, and then also, as you know, part of this influx and flooding of work has made me think, Is this even what I want to still be doing? Do I still want to be a creator? Or do I want to be a creative director or a teacher or trainer? Am I wanting to move more into a training and coaching model, as opposed to doing the actual work? So I'm a little bit at a crossroads and I think that this year for me will shake out which direction I go in -- or maybe it's both. Maybe I bring on an employee to do the actual work and I just oversee it, and then I can go out and do more speaking opportunities and do more corporate engagements and help people in that way.

ilise benun  

As I'm listening, I'm thinking about how many people say to me that they have trouble delegating, and it's not like they're at the feast point that you're describing, but there are definitely things they could delegate, and they're not exactly sure how, or which. One person in particular, Andy Brenits, wrote a piece for Entrepreneur.com actually recently about how the hardest thing for him was to delegate the thing he does himself, which is design. So I'm curious if, for you, it is more challenging to delegate the copywriting than the admin for example?

Danielle Hughes  

Yes, 100%! I delegated my bookkeeping, my admin, I've delegated my financial planning, the design. But the copy -- I still have it in my head that I'm the only one who can do what I do. And I think a lot of people feel that way. There are certain projects that are less "personality driven" so I can hand it off to another writer and I can just massage it. But I feel like so much of what I do is teasing out people's brand and personality, and I don't know if -- it's not that I'm not comfortable. I would have to find someone and train them. They would have to follow me and shadow me and learn my technique -- and it's not even a technique! It's just it's in my head, and how do I get it out of my head into someone else's head? It's difficult. It's difficult.

ilise benun  

Repetition is helpful. Yes. It's interesting because, for you, the work of copywriting is not just any kind of copywriting. It's a certain kind of copywriting, based on this brand and this concept that you have evolved. 

And one thing that I find really interesting about the personality brand idea is that, as you said, it was just a blog post that you wrote, at one point. But then people started to respond to it and so you listened to the market and you started to give the market more of what it was asking for. To me that's one of the trickiest things to teach -- because people think it has to come from them and they have to decide where they're going instead of balancing that with listening to the market. So I wonder, as you're articulating the opportunities that you see in the options before you, because you know how to listen to the market, there will also be that aspect of, "Where am I being called?"

Danielle Hughes  

Basically. Yeah, and I totally agree and I thank you for that advice. Because so many people had come to me in the past couple of years saying, "I love the way you write about yourself" or "I love your website -- I need that. I don't know how to write about myself." And it did not occur to me that this was so difficult for so many people. What's more interesting now, as you know, I'm going to be moving into the corporate space. So how do you do a brand for a person who's an employee? 

But companies are starting to see that there's a need for that because, especially with virtual, you have employees who struggle. It's not that they don't know that they're good at their job. But they don't know how to advocate for themselves, they don't know how to put into words the value that they bring to their team or the value that they bring to the organization, or specifically what they're good at. And so I'm really excited about this potential and this happened because of my newsletter! Somebody saw my newsletter and said, "I think the people I mentor could really use this." And she brought it to her organization [and they said,] "Yes, we have a problem internally and we would love to embolden and bolster the people in our company to be able to say, 'This is my own personality brand. This is who I am. This is what I'm good at.'' Because then it just serves everybody more, it serves the teams that they work with, it serves their managers, it serves their employers. So I'm really fascinated to see how this can translate into an internal employer perspective as an employee perspective as opposed to just entrepreneurial.

ilise benun  

Yeah and then you're definitely going to have to train other people to do it with you.

Danielle Hughes  

I would think, yes, or I'll just not actually do writing, and all the training -- that's a whole other podcast maybe.

ilise benun  

Exactly. Alright, my last question for you, Danielle and this is a thread that has been woven through everything I'm doing and talking about and people I'm talking to lately -- what role does confidence play in what you're describing, in this case the feast for example?

Danielle Hughes  

I think it's a huge component. I think clients or potential clients can sense if you are confident in what you do. And I want to distinguish that introverts can be confident -- confident is not just an extroverted outgoing personality trait. So many people think that when you are confident you're braggadocious or you're boasting, but there's a huge piece in having that energy about you that says, "I know that I am good at this, and I am going to price my work and value what I'm good at. And I'm going to even maybe tease a little bit when we're having a conversation about what I know." I think that goes such a long way because why would you [a client] trust your brand or your message with someone who doesn't give you the sense that they're going to know what to do with it, right? You want someone who's going to come in and say, "Here's what I see, or here's what I noticed" and is not afraid to say that and to speak up. 

So I think it's something that can be cultivated. I definitely suffered from that impostor syndrome, Brene Brown just had a whole thing about how it's not a syndrome, but we all have moments of feeling like an impostor and that's completely normal. I just think it's something that happens over time, the more you talk about what you do and the more you do what you do, that's where the confidence comes from. 

So if I look back two years ago, I don't think that I was as confident as maybe I pretended to be.

ilise benun  

So the idea of competence breeding confidence.

Danielle Hughes  

100%. I mean obviously there are people who are confident whoi shouldn't be confident. But I think for the most part, yes, if you know that you are good at what you do and you have a distinct point of view, then you can be confident about it -- clarity creates confidence.

ilise benun  

All right, well, I just want to thank you, Danielle, for bringing this really interesting issue and conundrum -- it's a good problem to have, but it's a problem nonetheless, to the podcast. Tell the people where they can find you and your newsletter and your workshops and everything that you're doing.

Danielle Hughes  

Sure. So my website is morethanwordscopy.com and you can sign up for my newsletter there. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, I'm a big LinkedIn user. Everything's really on my website. I don't know when I'm going to be doing my next workshop, but the newsletter is definitely on the website.

ilise benun  

The newsletter is the thing to always get involved. All right, thank you, Danielle,

Danielle Hughes  

Thank you so much, it was great.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This episode is especially for women (although the men may learn a little something too). My guest, Jennifer Barrett, a financial expert and author of the new book, Think Like a Breadwinner: a wealth-building manifesto for women who want to earn more (and worry less), shared some important ideas about how we can adjust our mindset to take better care of ourselves, in business and at home. If you like what you hear, we'd love it if you write a review, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Here's the transcript:

Ilise Benun
When I heard the title of Jennifer Barrett's new book, I knew I had to have her on the podcast and I couldn't even wait to read the book first. It's called "Think Like a Breadwinner," and it made so much sense to me on so many levels that I am thrilled to share this conversation with you. We talked about what that breadwinner mindset is why women are not socialized to take responsibility for themselves, and the role that confidence plays in all of this. That's a thread that is woven into almost everything I'm thinking about and teaching these days. So listen, and learn.

Hello, Jenn, welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Barrett
Thanks so much for having me. My pleasure. I'm Jennifer Barrett, and I'm the chief Education Officer at Acorns, which is a saving and investing app with about 9 million users and counting. And I'm also the author of the new book, "Think Like a Breadwinner," which is a wealth building manifesto for women who want to earn more and worry less well.

Ilise
...and who wouldn't want that? Very cool. And full disclosure. I have not read the book yet. But I can't wait to and I just wanted to have you on even before I read the book, because I love the title. And I loved your TED Talk. And I loved the conversation that we had. And I just feel like there's a lot we can talk about. Maybe after I read the book, we'll do a part two, based on what I found there. But let's begin by talking about the title of the book, think like a breadwinner, what does that mean to you?

Jenn
Well, thinking like a breadwinner really means making the kinds of money choices that will ensure you can support yourself throughout your life, and maybe others too. And one key element of that is investing to build wealth. And you know, for most women, we have not been taught or encouraged to invest or even really given the message of how critically important that is. So that's a big part of it. And then even, if you step back, I mean, even though more women than ever before are moving into the main earner or breadwinner role, we are still being socialized for the most part not to think of ourselves as breadwinners, as wealth builders.

And that is to our detriment. So even if we end up in that role, we often feel unprepared. And either way, we're really missing out on reaching our full earning and wealth building potential, if we don't think of ourselves in those terms, and really focus on not just earning enough to pay the bills, but building enough wealth to support the lives that we want.

Ilise
I'm inclined to kind of use myself as the example here, and maybe tell you a little bit about my take on this from my past. Maybe you can comment and support it with some ideas, and keeping in mind that my listeners are for the most part, self employed creative professionals. One of the problems I have with a lot of the money, tips and guidance that's out there, especially for women, is that it's all about having a job and negotiating salaries. And I have a big chip on my shoulder about that. So I'm constantly trying to translate it all for the self employed woman who actually is in a position to do more than I think she would be able to do in a job. Do you agree with that?

Jenn
I would agree, I think that there are still some very real external barriers within corporate America to women, you know, women who are ambitious, and who want to move up the ranks, and especially if we want to do that, and also have a family. So it's not just the socialization that we get, but it's very real barriers in terms of workplace bias in terms of women being paid and promoted less and in terms of policies that really reinforce those outdated assumptions. And I think what you see and what we're seeing right now is that a lot of women are leaving corporate America and becoming solopreneurs entrepreneurs, small business owners, because there's more freedom there. There's more possibility, the sky's sort of the limit. And not only that, but what I saw when I interviewed a lot of them is that we then create the kind of companies that we wish we were a part of. We learn from our experience in corporate America, that's where we started. And we try to do better when we create our own company.

So I think a lot of these women led companies are really leading the way in creating a more inclusive workplace culture and a better balance between life and work and will ultimately create a model that I hope the rest of corporate America follows in the future.

Ilise
So I may have said this -- I am totally unemployable. First, it was because I just don't like other people telling me what to do. Then, eventually, after now, 33 years of being self employed, I'm to a point where nobody can match my salary and the potential for what I can earn, the sky's the limit. I mean, that is the reality if I wanted to focus on that.

And yet, here's the interesting thing: in my opinion, after 33 years supporting myself, I'm not married, I have no kids, I have a dog, she's not all that expensive. I have a lot of freedom. And yet, it wasn't until maybe five years ago, that it occurred to me that I really got that I can take care of myself. In other words, I had been taking care of myself for, let's say, 28 years. But still, in the back of my mind, there was always this, "Oh, someone else should take responsibility for x." There wasn't even a person there. But there's this fantasy that someone else is supposed to take care of me.

So when I think about my past, and growing up, it was certainly my father who taught me -- I remember very clearly watching him pay the bills, write those checks. He would let me write everything but his signature. And so I kind of learned, and I remember getting my first checkbook. And yet and I still did not get the message that I will be able to take care of myself, even though I was learning some of the practical skills.

So respond to that, if you would.

Jenn
Yeah. And I'd be curious to hear more about what happened five years ago to to shift your mindset around that. But to answer your question, I think and I experienced this myself growing up is, there's a lot of research around how parents speak differently to their girls than to their boys, and the kinds of conversations they have tend to center more around budgeting and spending smartly. I think you can even include paying the bills and managing a budget. And they speak more to their boys about building credit and building wealth.

Those are critical skills for everyone. And this is not to play down the importance of being able to manage a budget. But managing a budget is only one piece of it, right? What I'm talking about with the breadwinning mindset is so much more expansive. It's not just about paying the bills, it's about asking yourself, "what kind of life do I want? And what do I need to do in order to afford it?"

You know, if you're in a career, it's asking, "what kind of income? What career path do I need in order to make the kind of income to support the life I want?" If you're starting a business, it's asking, "how am I going to bring in the revenue I want to? And how is this business going to allow me to have the life the lifestyle that I want? And how am I going to build wealth on the side in order to ensure that I can cover our midterm goals, retirement, all of these things?"

I think when you're self employed, those are even bigger questions, because it's really on your shoulders, it's all on your shoulders, paying taxes, saving for retirement, saving for midterm goals. All of that really rests on your shoulders. And so you need to be that much more proactive. But I think most of us just weren't brought up to think about money that way, to think about wealth building, to think about what is the career path? Or what is the business I want to start that will generate the revenue to support the life that I want.

And so it often takes a while before that clicks into place. And to your point, you know, I don't think we're like waiting around for Prince Charming to save us anymore, necessarily. But if you look at the data out there on women and money: women invest less and later and we save less than men. We have more credit card and student loan debt. And we have lower credit scores. I could go on, you know, the gender wage gap is 18%. The gender wealth cap is 68%.

So you look at those numbers, and it's hard not to think, "are we waiting for someone to rescue us," because we are often not making the kinds of financial choices that will allow us to support ourselves throughout our lives.

So there is I think there is something very deep in our subconscious. And a lot of that comes from the cultural conditioning that we have gotten, which has said women's income is less important, which has said the man will be the breadwinner, which has said the prescription is, get a job, get a career, maybe start a small business, get married, save a little for a rainy day, save for retirement -- but it leaves out all the decades in between.

So I would say we shouldn't blame ourselves for that, because a lot of this really is the way that we have been socialized to think of ourselves in relation to money. And it takes a real conscious effort, if that is the way that you have been brought up. And it's been reinforced by pop culture to recognize that and then shift your mindset to believe, "I am capable of doing this, I am a wealth builder, I am a breadwinner, I am a successful business owner," to reinforce those beliefs and take some conscious reconditioning sometimes.

Ilise
I have so many thoughts. I'm just gonna choose one. Because I've been thinking a lot about the role of confidence in all of this, and to say, "just shift your mindset to become a wealth builder," easier said than done, obviously. And so what I'm thinking about is what's the role of confidence? And in my own personal experience, it's taking actions and building skills, that bring the confidence that build the confidence. It doesn't come from just thinking a certain way.

And so that got me thinking, I was trying to remember when I put my first $100, in my Fidelity SEP IRA. I couldn't even find it on the website. It's been that long, but nobody told me to do that. I only had two jobs and none of them had an IRA or any kind of retirement plan associated with it. So I don't even know why, at a certain point, I decided to just start putting $100 a month into a SEP IRA. But I do remember, I had a client, I was doing bookkeeping for him, he was a psychiatrist. And he had Fidelity Contrafund, and I was like, "Okay, well, he's making money at that, I'm gonna do that."

And so I just started putting $100 into Contrafund, and for years and years it's been building.

Jenn
So like, what is that action also? And where is the confidence, like, "Yes, I can build a business and save for retirement at the same time, not all of my money has to go to the same thing." 100%, I agree with you. And I think to your point, when we just start implementing those habits, even if we're saving a little bit, investing a little bit at a time, it starts to build our confidence. So one of the most important things is just to get in the game, is just to start investing, it's less important, what you're investing in.

And I always say, if you are feeling intimidated about the stock market, and I think a lot of people, men and women, still are, but you see that more in women than in men, then just to invest in an S&P 500 index funds. That gives you exposure to 500 of the biggest companies that represent more than 80% of the total market value. So you're basically in many ways, investing in the market itself -- one investment in one fund over time that has returned about 10% per year on average, or seven to seven and a half if you take inflation into account. And that is a nice rate of return.

So if you do nothing else, start there. And I think, to your point, when you start investing, and you start to see that money growing, it has a really incredible effect on your psyche and your confidence. Because there's something about actually seeing the numbers and seeing your wealth grow, that will increase your confidence, that will increase your sense of security, all of these emotional benefits to it. And we see this in Acorns, too.

So at Acorns, people can start investing with their change literally -- we will you connect your card and you use your card and we round up your purchases, take the change, and when it hits $5 we invest that for you. And so people who start there, and there are a lot of people who do start there, invest about 30 to $35 a month on average. So we're talking about around $400 a year but what we find is that they start there, and then after a few months, usually when the market is going up which it has been for the most part for you know several months now, their confidence builds and they start adding more. So they add $5, $10. And then they continue to increase their contributions. I think that's actually the way it works for a lot of people, if we're a little tentative about jumping in.

So the most important thing is to just get started and get in the habit so that every time you have a new client, for example, you're automatically thinking, "Okay, I need to take this amount, from whatever payment I get to put toward taxes, and I need to take this amount to put toward my investments." A SEP IRA is a great vehicle because you can deduct those contributions. So it helps you in more than one way, you know, you're already building your wealth, and you're saving money for retirement, but you're also saving money on your tax bill.

Ilise
Excellent. I want to give you more time to tell us more about what's in the book in terms of the actual strategies that people can use and implement. So what would you say? Where else would you go with that?

Jenn
So I took the the breadwinning mindset, and I used it as a filter to look at kind of every aspect of our finances. And one place to start is credit. I think anyone who's ever taken a loan out for their business is well aware of the importance of having good credit, in order to get the best terms. But again, the way that credit has been marketed to everyone, but really predominantly to women, since we are tend to make most of the consumer decisions and the household, is that credit is a way to close the gap between the life that you can afford and the life that you want. And that is such a dangerous message.

But what the breadwinner mindset would say is looking at credit as a way to get the best terms on the loan that you will want to invest in something that you think will increase in value. So for example, looking at your credit cards as a way to build your credit score, so that when you get a mortgage or business loan, you'll get the best terms.

I have some research in the book that shows that if you have the highest range credit scores and can get the best terms, that can save you over $42,000 over the course of a traditional 30 year mortgage loan for an average priced home. That is significant when you think about building wealth and the kind of money that you can set aside $42,000 makes a huge difference, especially if you're able to invest that money versus paying it in interest.

Same goes for a business loan. So having a higher credit score actually makes a huge difference. You can also leverage credit cards to actually make money once you are comfortable paying off your credit card bill every month, you can start using credit cards to get cash back to get rewards points. You know, there are fantastic deals on some of these business credit cards. But it's a different way of looking at credit. It's really like you don't want to pay for the privilege of using the card. You want to leverage credit to actually make money and build wealth. So that's one area.

The other area, again, is looking at investing from day one as a way to decrease your dependence if you are in a regular job, to decrease your dependence on paycheck. And building wealth on the side is a way to give you that cushion that could allow you to leave a corporate job and start your own business.

In fact, last night, I did an event with Luminary and Kate, who is the founder and CEO of Luminary, was telling me that she had been investing for the goal of having a child. They were going through a lot of fertility treatments and she had saved aside all this money and they ended up not having a child. But she had all this money, so she used the money to start Luminary.

So it's really thinking about building wealth to support the goals that you might have in the future and to give you the freedom of choice. Right. And that's a very different way of looking at it. Same with savings. I mean, I think we often think of savings and it's been sort of pitched us as like saving for an upcoming purchase like a expensive handbag or a getaway with our girlfriends, which is not to say that those aren't wonderful things to save for too.

But savings is so much more than that. It's like having savings is having peace of mind, it's giving you choice. It's knowing for example, if you have savings, if you suddenly get a tax bill, if you underestimated what you need to pay, having that savings there gives you that security that you're going to be okay. If you're starting a business and oh my god -- the pandemic. I mean, some people lost 50 - 80% of their revenue in the pandemic. Having savings allows you to ride those times and so your business will be okay and you'll be okay. So it's so important to just think about all those different areas of your finances as really supporting the life you want and giving you as many choices as you can have in the future.

Ilise

Actually the last line of your TED Talk is the one that I told you I was going to be quoting you immediately, because it has a corollary in my work.

So you said, "There is nothing more empowering than being able to bring the future you want to life. And to know you have the savings and the wherewithal to walk away from any situation you don't want."

So I translated that to, "There is nothing more empowering than being able to bring the business you want to life. And to know that you have the marketing in place, and the pipeline, and the wherewithal to walk away from any client or project you don't want." What do you think of that?

Jenn
I love that. I love that so much. I really do. I think that's so important. And the book is not necessarily written for entrepreneurs and small business owners. But I think the lessons apply. And if you translate the breadwinning mindset to an entrepreneurial mindset, it really is having the confidence that you can do this, that you have the skills that you have the pipeline, and you have the marketing capabilities to weather these storms.

And I mean honestly, there's nothing more powerful than being able to say no to a client, to be able to walk away from a client who's toxic. I mean, I've talked to so many people who have businesses and feel like when they're starting, they have to put up with so much. But as they start to build their business, build their wealth, they say, "This is an amazing, this is an amazing moment for me when I can say no to a client who's just a pain in my butt and I don't want to have to deal with them."

That's a wonderful feeling to be in that builds confidence. That by itself, I think, can build confidence. Yeah. Cuz think about how you'll show up the next time you're negotiating with a client when you know that you can walk away. I mean, that's the first rule of negotiation, right? Yep, the most effective way to negotiate is knowing in your mind that you can walk away, and it gives you so much leverage in a conversation and negotiation.

Ilise
Alright, my last question for part one of our conversation. I think a lot of people want to talk about talking about money, because that's something I teach, I have a new presentation, actually, I'm giving a version of it tonight, called "Show Me The Money: Learn to love the money conversation," because I think one of the ways people, not just women, men and women I see, get in their own way is just by not bringing it up in the first place. So do you have any tips from the book or from your own experience about talking about money?

Jenn
Well, number one is talk about it. To your point, I think that we often feel shame, or embarrassment, or whatever it is, especially when we have questions about money, how to invest or things that we think we ought to know. But in reality, you know, very few people in this country get a really solid financial education. It's not part of the curriculum in most schools. So a lot of people have a lot of questions well into their career. And so there's no shame in asking questions. So that's important.

But the other aspect of this, especially if you have your own business, is to talk to other business owners and get a sense of what they're charging and have those conversations. I mean, it's sort of the equivalent, you know, in our careers, when I've talked to other people about what they're earning, what their income is, and boy are those eye opening conversations.

And it's so powerful. I was just thinking yesterday about a string and one of my network networking groups about getting paid to speak. I had been trying to decide what to charge and that string was eye opening. The range was like zero to 10, on what people were charging, and it was not necessarily a reflection of experience, or the amount of times you've spoken or your platform. It was really a lot of times about what you asked for. And having read that entire string, now I know this, this spectrum, the range, and I know how to have that conversation, I felt so much better equipped to negotiate the next talk that I was asked to give. That was hugely powerful.

I'm thinking of one friend in particular and I include her in the book. She holds these workshops to help others run strong PR firm, to help other business owners with negotiations. But even you know, she did some work for me and she said, "I hope you don't mind, but she's like, honey, I got to get paid. Like I got bills. I'll give you a friend discount. But I got to get paid."

And I thought I would never ask you to do work and not pay you. You know, but I think you can have those conversations, even in a case like that where you're working with a friend, and they say, I love you, but I got to get paid.

Ilise
Well, my take on the friends and family discount is they should pay more because they know how much you're worth and they want to support you.

Jenn
I told her that too. I said I'm willing to pay full price, more than willing because you're exactly right, they know more than anyone how talented you are and they will want to support that. I completely agree.

But I also think it is just so important to remember, you need to get paid, you need to get paid what you're worth, there's no way around it. And there's nothing wrong with saying, "I want to make a lot of money,"

I definitely want to make a lot of money, I'm very open about it, I want to make a lot of money so I can have the impact I want to have in the world, so I can have the life I want. And, you know, I think a lot of times, we don't talk about that enough. There's this weird shame around saying, especially as a woman, that you want to make a lot of money. And we need to get over that.

And I would say -- and then I'll get off my horse about this -- But when we talk about venture capital, I've talked to so many female entrepreneurs, and they tell me that one of the things that drives them nuts when they're raising money is that there's almost this idea of like, it's charity to put money into a female led company right now. It's like, "we ought to do it to help female entrepreneurs."

That is such BS! Invest in the company because we will make money and we will make you money. That's why you invest in a company. We're not a charity. And we have every intention of making a lot of money. And so it's even reshaping the conversation around that to like, the reason you should invest in a female led business is because we have a higher rate of success. And we are just as ambitious and talented as male founders. Not because there's some quota to fill, or because you feel like oh, I need to support female founders, but because you actually see the value in what we're doing.

Ilise
All right, that would be the perfect place to put the bookmark. But I did think of one other question that I want to ask you is: Do you have a favorite female personal finance "guru" that you recommend people listen to or read?

Jenn
Well, it's hard to read her, but she does have a blog, but my mom is my, she really is my hero. We talk all the time about money and investments. She will call me when she makes a good investment and makes money. So we have that kind of relationship where she says, I'm so glad I can call you and tell you about this money I made today with Baidu or Amazon or whatever. 

She has a background and a PhD in accounting. And she actually takes the time to read all these reports that companies put out and look for opportunities. That is not something that most people have the time to do, but I admire her for more than that. She is self taught and really started managing the finances after my parents were divorced. And she got remarried. And has didn't start quite from scratch, but almost and has built a really impressive portfolio in stocks and bonds and in real estate. So I have so much admiration for what she's been able to do. And she also gives just incredibly solid advice. She is the person who takes the time to research everything. And she's at Profpat.com

She has a blog, and she writes mostly for people who are near or in retirement. That's her focus right now because she is retired. She was an accounting professor for many years.

Ilise
So interesting. And just funnily my mother also spends what sounds like all of her spare time reading all those reports and watching the stock market. She doesn't have an accounting degree, actually, so she is also self taught, and I think has been doing it probably for the last 10 years. But that's what she seems to have devoted her life to -- is teaching herself how to take care of herself -- she's now in her 80s.

Jenn
That is amazing. That's so inspiring. And I think they would get along very well.

Ilise
Yes. All right. So tell the people where they can find you online, also in your book.

Jenn
Sure. Well, I'm at JenniferBarrett.com. I'm on all the social platforms and feel free to reach out. And the book is "Think like a breadwinner" and it's available anywhere you buy books.

Ilise
Awesome. I can't wait to get mine. Okay, so thank you, Jenn. And we will definitely have to have a part two. That sounds great.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai
 

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