In the latest episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn DeWall speaks with Patti B. Johnson about a challenge every leader must face—leading through change. Change, both personal and professional, is unavoidable. How leaders navigate it can determine their success. Patti, the former CEO of People Results and author of Make Waves: Be the One to Start Change at Work and in Life, shares insights on how leaders can start initiating change and make a meaningful impact by making waves in their organizations.

Why Do Leaders Struggle with Change?

“Change is hard,” Jenn DeWall remarks during the episode. “It’s something we have to learn to stand with in solidarity to be great leaders.” Often, leadership is mistakenly seen as always having the right answers, but Patti challenges that assumption. She explains that leaders frequently try to create a perfect plan or appear to have all the answers, which can actually prevent effective leadership during times of change. Instead, leaders need to be adaptable and open to learning as the pace of change accelerates. Patti highlights that “the world we live in is constantly evolving, and we need to adapt to keep up.”

The Mindset for Making Waves

Patti introduces the concept of making waves in leadership, which refers to initiating change and pushing through uncertainty. “When you’re making waves, you’re driving change in your organization,” she explains. Whether it’s a personal project or a major business initiative, the ability to take action in the face of ambiguity defines successful leaders.

A major takeaway from the episode is the belief that “I’ll figure it out.” According to Patti, this mindset allows leaders to be flexible and resilient during times of change. It’s not about knowing everything from the start but rather about being willing to learn and initiate change confidently.

The “Think, Know, Do” Framework

To help leaders navigate change effectively, Patti outlines her Think, Know, Do framework—a model that gives leaders a structured approach to leading through change:

• Think: Understand what you’re bringing to the table, including your strengths, fears, and motivations. “Know what you have to manage around,” says Patti. It’s crucial to reflect on how these personal traits may impact your ability to initiate change.
• Know: Ask yourself, “What do I need to learn that I don’t already know?” Curiosity and continuous learning are key traits of leaders who are successful at making waves in leadership.
• Do: Take action—but start small. “Don’t make getting started feel overwhelming,” Patti advises. She encourages adaptive planning, where leaders adjust their plans as they gain more knowledge and insight.

Effective Communication During Change

One of the most critical elements of leading through change is clear, consistent communication. “If you set the expectation that everything will go smoothly, you’re setting yourself up for failure,” warns Patti. Instead, leaders should be transparent and realistic, acknowledging that there will be challenges along the way. Honest communication not only builds trust but also helps teams stay aligned with the overall vision.

Patti also emphasizes the importance of involving others in the process of initiating change. Creating an “idea circle” with diverse perspectives can help leaders gather valuable feedback and expertise. As Patti explains, “Most change is not a solo sport. You need others to help you figure it out.” Having a supportive network during times of change can prevent isolation and increase the likelihood of success.

Take the First Step in Making Waves

The episode concludes with an empowering message: anyone can begin making waves in leadership. Whether you’re a senior executive or a team leader, you have the power to start meaningful change. “Take the first baby step,” Patti advises. “Don’t wait for someone else to initiate it—start making waves yourself.”

Where to Find More From Patti B. Johnson

If you enjoyed this episode, you can connect with Patti by: 

• Connect on LinkedIn
• Visit her website: pattibjohnson.com
• Listen to her podcast: Be a Wave Maker: Conversations on Change
• Buy Her Book: Make Waves: Be the One to Start Change at Work and in Life

At Crestcom, we understand that effective leadership development is essential to helping leaders embrace change. Our programs equip leaders with the tools to adapt, communicate effectively, and drive change within their organizations. If you’re ready to take the first step toward leading through change, request a free leadership workshop and learn how to develop the skills you need to make waves in your leadership journey.

 

The post Making Waves in Leadership: Initiating Change with Patti B. Johnson appeared first on Crestcom International.

In a recent episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn DeWall sat down with communication expert Davina Stanley to discuss how leaders can elevate their communication skills. 

For 25+ years, Davina has advised thousands of executives from some of the world’s largest companies, including Meta, KPMG, and Mercer. She has helped clients from nearly all industries for clients in Australia, Asia-Pacific, the US, and the UK to communicate complex ideas extremely clearly and quickly, ideally within 30 seconds.

She is the Founder of Clarity First Program, which helps C-suite executives and their teams to better engage senior leaders and Boards in complex ideas.

Davina began her career at McKinsey & Company, working in the Hong Kong and Melbourne offices as well as Firm Learning, where she helped executives use the Minto Pyramid Principle(R) to communicate better. She was ranked as one of the top performers of her era.

Barbara Minto approved her to teach the Pyramid Principle in 2009, and she is also the author of The So What Strategy and has recently released two new books: Elevate and Engage.

Elevate will be released during September and helps leaders lift the quality of thinking in their team’s board papers without needing to rewrite them.

Engage will be released soon after that and helps executives write papers that their leaders don’t need to rework.

The Importance of Effective Communication

Effective communication is an essential leadership skill. Jenn DeWall opened the conversation by emphasizing how many conflicts, confusions, and even burnout can be traced back to poor communication. As she rightly pointed out, “We need to stop making things harder because we’re not communicating better.” This set the stage for Davina Stanley to share her expertise on how to simplify complex ideas and ensure that the right messages are conveyed.

Cultural Nuances in Communication

One of the interesting points Davina shared was the impact of cultural differences on communication styles. Having lived in various parts of the world, including Australia, Hong Kong, and the United States, Davina noted that while it might seem like communication would be similar across Western cultures, subtle differences can create significant challenges. For example, the directness often expected in American communication can be perceived as brashness by those from other cultures.

The Vicious Cycle of Poor Communication

Davina introduced the concept of the “chain of pain,” a cycle where unclear or poorly structured communication leads to a cascade of issues. Leaders often fall into the trap of providing input too late in the communication process, creating a situation where teams spend more time rewriting and clarifying rather than moving projects forward. This vicious cycle not only wastes time but also leads to frustration and burnout among team members.

Davina stressed the importance of thinking deeply about the outcomes you want from any communication. “Leaders want their people to write better, but they’ll often wait to provide input into a communication until after it’s drafted because it’s easier. And actually, what they’re doing is creating a really vicious cycle,” she explained.

A Five-Step Process to Elevate Communication

To break this cycle, Davina outlined a five-step process to help leaders and teams improve their written communication:

1. Flush Out the Strategy: Consider who the communication is for, why they need it, and what outcome you want from it. This step is crucial for setting the direction and ensuring that the communication aligns with the intended goals.
2. Frame the Message: Structure your message using clear, concise patterns. Davina offers 10 patterns to help teams organize their thoughts and communicate effectively.
3. Firm Up the Messaging: Once the message structure is clear, refine it into a one-pager that captures the essence of the communication. This ensures that the key points are crystal clear.
4. Flip It Into a Document: After the messaging is firm, turn it into a full document, ensuring that the structure and clarity are maintained.
5. Feedback: After delivering the communication, reflect on what worked and what didn’t. Use this feedback to improve future communications.

Simplifying Complex Ideas

One of the standout points Davina made was the importance of simplifying complex ideas. She mentioned that business communication should be at a grade six or seven reading level, ensuring that it is accessible and easy to understand. Tools like Hemingway can help writers refine their language to meet this standard. “If you can’t say it in a sentence, you don’t know it,” Davina noted, highlighting the value of clarity and brevity.

Where to Find more from Davina Stanley

• Connect with Davina Stanley on LinkedIn
• Visit her website: clarityfirstprogram.com
• Check out her latest books: Elevate and Engage

Crestcom’s Role in Leadership Development

As the conversation wrapped up, Jenn DeWall reminded listeners of Crestcom’s commitment to leadership development. Crestcom offers a robust curriculum covering 24 topics essential for effective leadership, from communication to building trust. Jenn also extended an invitation to experience Crestcom’s Complimentary Leadership Skills Workshop—a fun, interactive team-building activity designed to enhance communication and collaboration within teams.

For leaders and teams looking to take their communication to the next level, Davina Stanley’s insights provide a practical roadmap. By following her five-step process and focusing on clarity, leaders can break the cycle of poor communication and drive better results.

If you’re interested in learning more about how to elevate your communication or want to explore Crestcom’s leadership development programs, visit crestcom.com/freeworkshop to request a complimentary workshop and discover more resources to help you and your team thrive.

 

The post Elevate Your Written Communication with Davina Stanley appeared first on Crestcom International.

In a world where leadership demands are ever-evolving, finding a balance between professional success and personal fulfillment can seem elusive. In the latest episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn DeWall sits down with Jack Craven, a seasoned CEO, executive coach, and author of his debut book, Aliveness Mindset: Lead and Live with More Passion, Purpose, and Joy. This engaging conversation unravels the secrets to cultivating an aliveness mindset, a concept that can revolutionize your leadership style and elevate your overall well-being.     

Meet Jack Craven, CEO, Executive Coach, Author and More!

With a diverse background as a trial lawyer, seasoned CEO, long-time member of the Young Presidents Organization (YPO), mindset author, and C-Suite team facilitator,  and distinguished executive coach, Jack Craven has spent the last decade leading countless CEOs and their C-Suite teams into more fulfilling, authentic lives. Jack blends his experience with neuroscience-based practices and insights from the Enneagram personality system to facilitate transformative coaching results. On April 2,  2024, he launched his first book, Aliveness Mindset: Lead and Live with More Passion, Purpose, and Joy, with publisher Forefront Books.

Discover the Aliveness Mindset

What does it mean to truly feel alive? In this episode, Jack Craven introduces the aliveness mindset as a way to bring the best version of yourself into every day. He defines it as “bringing the best version of yourself into your day-to-day experience.” It’s about identifying moments in your life when you felt most vibrant and using those experiences to guide your daily intentions. Whether it’s feeling the electric buzz of excitement during a successful project or the serene calm of a quiet morning walk, these moments are key to understanding how to live more fully.

Why Leaders Need the Aliveness Mindset

The aliveness mindset isn’t just a feel-good philosophy; it’s a critical tool for effective leadership. Jack explains how this mindset helps leaders achieve deeper connections with their teams, make more impactful decisions, and navigate challenges with resilience. By focusing on how to feel more alive, leaders can unlock their true potential and inspire their teams to do the same. As Jack puts it, “The cost of not living there is being unfulfilled. It’s not reaching your potential.”

Practical Tools and Practices

Later in the episode, Jack shares practical tools that anyone can use to cultivate an aliveness mindset:

• Anchoring Mindsets: These are daily affirmations based on traits that make you feel alive. For example, Jack’s anchoring mindsets include play, connect, learn, grow, and impact. By focusing on these traits, you can set a positive tone for your day.
• Reframing Reactions: Instead of getting bogged down by negative interpretations of events, Jack suggests using curiosity and positive reinterpretation. For instance, seeing a micromanaging boss as someone who is scared and seeking security can change your perspective and reduce stress.
• Magic Words: Simple shifts in perspective can transform relationships. Jack uses the example of interpreting his mother’s actions as care rather than control, which neutralized his reactivity and improved their relationship. “When I made that shift, it was transformational,” he says.

Overcoming Common Blocks to Aliveness

Jack addresses common blocks like fear, boredom, and feeling unappreciated. He emphasizes that these are often subjective interpretations that can be reframed. “By becoming aware of these blocks and using the tools mentioned, leaders can create a more fulfilling and less reactive life,” Jack explains.

Jenn’s conversation with Jack Craven on The Leadership Habit Podcast is a must-listen for anyone looking to enhance their leadership skills and personal fulfillment. By adopting an aliveness mindset, you can create a life filled with passion, purpose, and joy. 

Where to Find More from Jack Craven

Don’t miss all of Jenn and Jack’s insights into embracing an aliveness mindset! Listen to the full episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast with Jack Craven and start your journey towards living and leading with more passion and purpose. If you want to learn more about Jack’s work: 

• Visit his website:  www.jackcraven.com
• Connect on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jackcraven1
• Buy his book: Aliveness Mindset: Lead and Live with More Passion, Purpose, and Joy

Are you ready to transform your team’s leadership style? 

Crestcom International offers comprehensive leadership development programs designed to help leaders unlock their full potential. Through personalized coaching and workshops, Crestcom provides the tools and support needed to implement these powerful concepts in your daily life. If you want to see how our program can transform your team, contact us today to schedule a free 2-hour leadership workshop for your whole team! Visit crestcom.com/freeworkshop to find out more!

 

The post Why Leaders Need the Aliveness Mindset with Jack Craven appeared first on Crestcom International.

Two Things Leaders Need to Know Now with Gregory Offner

Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Gregory Offner to talk about the two things that leaders need to learn now! Gregory Offner is one of the most in-demand experts on this topic of professional performance and navigating disruption. His clients include fortune 100 companies. He is often asked to keynote at conferences where industry leaders and executives turn to him for new perspectives on how to elevate performance, eliminate disengagement and make work suck less. Yes, we could all benefit from having a better culture to come into and, hey, loving to come into work. So I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Gregory as we discussed the two things that leaders need to know now!

Meet Greg Offner, Keynote Speaker, Dueling Pianist and Consultant

Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It is Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting here with Gregory Offner, Jr. We are talking about the two things that leaders need to know now, now that the future of work is here. Now that heck, we’re likely being asked to do more than what we ever had before, but Gregory, I’m so excited to have you here on The Leadership Habit podcast. If you could just go ahead, tell us your story. What’s your story? Sure. I mean, that’s a huge question. What is your story?

Gregory Offner: It is a big question, Jenn, you know, it was 1982, and I saw a bright white light and then was smacked by a doctor and started crying, but that’s a little too far back, so let’s fast forward to make it relevant.

Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> I think I had the same experience,

Gregory Offner:  You know, in1982, you know, I, I do that in front of audiences, and I have to tell them like now as a new father, I’m legally required to put three dad jokes into my presentation. So if that’s happening in this podcast, there goes number one. Uno. So my story, my story’s a lot. Like most people I meet, I graduated from school and immediately started doing a job that had nothing to do with my degree. I had studied psychology, philosophy and music in school, and so naturally became a sales professional when I got out. 15 years later, I had moved through a few different industries, moved through a few different leadership roles and positions even worked internationally, building some sales teams. And I had kind of become disenchanted with what I was doing. The money was good, but the fulfillment was really lacking. I, I felt like I was sort of just getting through every day and not really giving the best that I could every day.

And for my bosses, that was fine. They were getting the productivity they needed, but for me, I would look in the mirror and, and kind of go, is, is this it? And what most people didn’t know was that during that career, during that 15-year career to try and fill that is this it gap that I was feeling, I had started a career in the evening as a professional dueling piano player. So during the day, I would meet with clients in boardrooms, and at night I would serenade patrons in bars and in theaters. And I’ve traveled all over the world doing this. And so I had this really neat existence where during the day I had a nine to five suit and tie type job. And at night, I had a very different experience. But then, in 2015, through overuse misuse, and just a couple factors that contributed physiologically to it, my voice gave out on me, it just stopped working, which I know sounds weird to most people that aren’t vocal professionals, but your voice needs rest.

It was scary— because remember,  I’m making my money during the day and my passion during the evening with my voice. And so now, all of a sudden, it’s not working. The doctors tell me it might never work again. I need surgery. If it even has a prayer’s chance of working. And that left me in a place where I was confused and frustrated. I felt alone because I can’t talk to anybody about this cuz my voice wasn’t working. And ultimately, over the next five years, I would go on to have 15 surgeries to repair and rebuild my vocal cords, spend over two months in complete silence while the vocal cords themselves healed, and spend hundreds of hours in voice therapy, relearning how to talk, how to sing again. And in that process, I made the decision I wasn’t going back to that day job. I wasn’t gonna go back and spend what little voice I might have left in my life doing something that I wasn’t 100% super duper into. And that brings us to how we got connected. That now, the work that I do around passion, around engagement, around employee retention, around performing at our best every day with organizations around the world enables me to use all of my interests, philosophy, psychology, music, persuasion, and business skills that I learned from 15 years like we talked about and I get to be on stage in front of others and see those aha moments every day in their eyes, which I know you, you get to do as a facilitator as well.

Jenn DeWall:  Yes, no, I think, you know, that’s probably my. What you went through is probably my biggest fear as a speaker is potentially losing my voice. I have multiple sclerosis, and that is potentially something that could happen. How did you, but here’s one question that I also, that as it relates to your story, how did you express your emotions if you couldn’t actually communicate them? Like what techniques did you use to be able to process that? And you know, especially if you’ve never been used to having to adapt in that way before

Relearning Communication

Gregory Offner:  It is a few things to answer that my, the, my, the dad joke that I now have to insert is that I just have a temper tantrum. I would just stomp my feet and get people’s attention. And that’s not true. What I actually did was pull out an old college trick, and I got a whiteboard. Remember we had whiteboards on our dorm rooms in college, right? So people could leave notes, or they could write silly things if they came back from a party after having a couple too many beers. Well, so I would walk around, I would walk around with a whiteboard and a dry erase marker. And I would have to try to write down my thoughts to, to get involved in a conversation, but I like to make jokes. At least I try to be funny. I like to participate in conversations and it’s very hard to do that when you’re writing.

So invariably, I’d wanna contribute something. And by the time I wrote down what I was thinking, the conversation had already moved on. So then I started realizing that the best way to have a conversation with people, if I was gonna be involved, was if we all did a group text. So if I were getting together with friends, we would be out, you know, to eat, and we would just be texting. And it’s really something amazing that the iPhone or smartphones allow us to do, because vocal issues have been around for a long time, certainly longer than cell phones. And so understanding the struggle that folks had to go through before you could text people at dinner. I mean, imagine passing notes throughout an entire dinner when cell phones didn’t exist. So I feel lucky that this happened to me when it happened. One, because it sparked the opportunity for this new life that I live. But two, because I had the technological tools around me to, to at least make it a little easier, to be able to express myself and communicate.

Jenn DeWall:  That’s a really powerful story, just in terms of your own resilience, your own adaptability of figuring out, you know, what’s a different way that we can still do and enjoy the things that I want. I think in a lot of those instances, many people can relate myself included. It’s really easy to just stop, take no action and just kind of be at the mercy of the circumstance. So it’s incredibly inspiring to hear your story of how you looked at that. And it actually catapulted you into a completely different life trajectory. That, which is where we are today. Talking about the two things that every leader should know, or the two things leaders should know now, Gregory, what are the two things that you think that leaders need to know today?

What are the Two Things Leaders Need to Know Now?

Gregory Offner:  Okay. And I wanna preface those two things with one little caveat. I believe that a leader doesn’t have to have subordinates to be a leader when you and I look in the mirror, there’s the person we are responsible for leading every day. So if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, I’m not a leader, I don’t have the title. You look in the mirror and that’s the person you’re responsible for leading. So these skills are gonna be just as these tips are gonna be just as valuable for you as they will, for someone who runs a company of thousands. But the two things that leaders need to know right now is number one, how to use skill acquisition as a competitive advantage, because if you’re like me and you get your news from somewhere and you’re paying attention to the news that relates to business and talent and staffing and productivity, you know that there’s a skills gap, a widening skills gap right now, as people reshuffle, they think about going solo, doing their own thing and leaving the corporate world. There is this institutional knowledge drain that’s happening as workers leave the workforce and that’s creating this skills gap. So a leader needs to understand how to use skill acquisition, how to use training and development as a competitive advantage right now. And the second part of that, the second thing leaders need to know right now is what skills should we be training and developing? How, how some skills for an organization are like rocket fuel when it comes to increasing productivity and performance.

1.    Leaders Need to Know Skills Acquisition is a Competitive Advantage

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. So let’s level set. How do you define, you know, how to use skill acquisition as a competitive advantage? That sounds like fancy corporate-speak. What does skill acquisition mean? How do we like at the simplest level,

Gregory Offner:  It means learning stuff.

Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh>

Gregory Offner:  Make it real simple. It means learning stuff. We all, throughout life learn in one of two ways. We’re taught by others where we teach ourselves. And my bet is, if you’re listening to this, you’re already a high performer. If you wanna be an even higher performer, you’re taking the initiative and you’re teaching yourself things outside of work, you’re digging in when you have the opportunity to be developed inside of work, but outside of work, your development doesn’t stop. So wouldn’t it make sense if you’re gonna spend your personal time and your personal money, maybe even to develop yourself that you pick the skills to develop, they’re gonna create a rocket-like experience with your career that is gonna propel you exactly where you want to go. Maybe even faster than the people you’re trying to compete with. Absolutely. So this can be a real competitive advantage, not just for an individual, but for an organization.

Because when we talk about the competitive landscape, what dictates a company’s success are the people within it. And if those people are faster, better, more adept at learning, unlearning and relearning skills that the business needs, that business is going to Excel. That business is going to experience that rocket fuel like propulsion and they’ll leap out ahead in whatever vertical or whatever market segment or whatever industry they’re they’re playing in. So this, this is industry-agnostic. As my dad would say, this is, this is not specific to the insurance or financial services industry. Where I come from, this can, this can be applied anywhere.

Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Well, and I wanna talk about the ability to relearn unlearn. I mean, I know there are probably a lot of people that are with me. I read Adam Grant’s newest book. Think Again, I love that, you know, thinking and reflecting that we all think we know more than we actually do, but that has gotta be one of the biggest challenges that in an organization or a team is to get them to even open their mind, to consider relearning an approach. So I’m curious, what’s your take on how to support people with unlearning and relearning and even being open to doing something that they’ve not done or doing it different than the, what they have before?

Gregory Offner:  Yeah, well, it’s what, and so Alvin Toffler is the futurist that that quote comes from, he said the illiterate of the 21st century won’t be those who can’t read or write. It’ll be those who can’t learn, unlearn and relearn. So one, when we talk about what skills we want to develop, I mean, you hit the nail right on the head. A lot of us operate in a closed environment. That is, we’re looking to learn a skill. And then, as Ron Popeil would say if anybody gets that reference from the old, late-night commercial, set it and forget it, remember that infomercial, how do we cook the chicken? You set it and forget it.

Jenn DeWall:  I don’t, but I feel like I, I should, because we’re the same age, but I don’t know about this!

Gregory Offner:  Go Google it, and look at it on YouTube. It’s hilarious. But here’s my point. When I talk about that, set it and forget it, that closed mentality, the quo has lost its status, and nothing is made that clearer than the pandemic change is going to continue to accelerate. The velocity of change is not stopping. And so the old way of doing business, where you got good at a skill, and then you coasted, that’s no longer going to work for organizations for large organizations for two reasons, predominantly. One, the competitive landscape got a lot tighter. Now that individuals can open up their own businesses. I mean, we need is a PayPal or Venmo account, and Wi-Fi. And depending on what you do, you know, maybe five or maybe Etsy, or maybe you just do it on your own wholly on your own. The barrier for entry in business is much lower, which means that if we’re going to be an organized business and have all of that overhead, all of that li all the liabilities that come with being a large organization, we need to excel with an open approach.

That is to say, the new way. Here’s a great quote for you for those folks who just won’t let go of the old way of doing things. “The new way is the right way.” Because this is what I see. When I work with organizations who have very tenured, let’s call them. We’re not gonna call them old, but they’re very tenured employees, right? Long-tenured employees who have been doing it, the air quotes the “right way” for a long time when we start working together. And we talk about some of these new programs and procedures and methodologies that we’re gonna implement, they say, well, that’s, that’s not the right way to do that. See, I’ve been doing this the right way for a really long time. Let me the right way. And that’s when we gently and kindly say, the new way is the right way. And I’m gonna need you to follow along and just give us a day to show you how this is going to work. So the skills that are like rocket fuel, one of those skills is curiosity.

Gregory Offner:  Wondering what if, instead of being intent on knowing, I got this quote from Tim Ferris, he asked a lot of his podcast guests. You know, if you could put anything on a billboard, what would it be? And the one guest he was interviewing said, I would put on a billboard, Learn More, Know Less. And that always stuck with me because if we’re willing to say, well, I’m not sure. What do you think we’ve opened ourselves up. We’ve created an open mindset and we’re, we’re ready to learn. Versus, have you ever had a conversation with someone maybe you’re talking about an issue that’s controversial or that’s new, or that’s unproven, and you’ve got your point of view and they say, no, no, no, Jenn, listen, listen. That’s not how it works. Let me tell you how it works. We’ve all had those conversations, and we want to get out of them about as quickly as they started. Yeah. Because that person’s got a closed mindset, that conversation isn’t going anywhere, it’s like beating your head against a brick wall it’s gonna hurt. And it won’t do very much of any good. So one of those skills that we try to develop in the organizations we work with is the skill of curiosity that opens the door for this learning, unlearning and relearning that you were talking about, Jenn.

2.    Leaders Need to Know the Skills That Are Like Rocket Fuel for Productivity

Jenn DeWall:  Well, yeah. And the curiosity like starting there, I feel like is it has to be that, or maybe it’s not the foundational skill, but it’s, or like starting point number one. But I feel like that might help some of the people that maybe are more seasoned or tenured and just have a lot of confidence based on the way that they’ve done things. Maybe that’s the skill that will allow them to open up the possibility of dropping that dang ego <laugh> of letting it just, you know, they don’t have to be right. Because you’re right. The, the barrier of entry is incredibly low right now. I think, I don’t even remember the stat that I read yesterday in terms of the amount of millennials and gen Z that are actually really participating in the short gig economy, wanting to just do something different, not necessarily wanting to follow that traditional, like I’m going to stay in this company and just being curious about how are things done? How can we challenge that? Because there’s a lot of workers that are ultimately just choosing that. And I mean, if your organization isn’t curious, then I guess it’s really hard to want to engage. So we’re starting to talk about the skills that are needed right now for rocket place. What are some ways, or to rocket or like rocket fuel, like rocket place, like rocket fuel right

Gregory Offner:  Now I’m a rocket man….

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. And then we’ll start singing Elton John, and everyone’s gonna be happy. Curiosity, like how do you actually practice that? Because I think about the thing that gets in the way, you know, that defense, that, that need to be right or feel like people see you as they’re smart. How do you, what do you practice to allow yourself to be curious when you know that you can default into a judgment? So you can maybe say that you’re smart or kind of where you like, oh, let me tell you what my experience right. We wanna offer and help. What tips do you have to be more curious?

The Foundational Skills Triad: Curiosity, Energy Management and Gratitude

Gregory Offner:  So you mentioned something. I, I wanna answer that question, but I want to address something you said just a moment ago about, is it a foundational skill. Maybe it’s the foundational skill. So there are seven skills that we’ve identified that are truly transformational when we start to develop them in our people. And of those seven, there are three that are foundational. Curiosity is one of them. We call it the triad, cuz there’s three of them. And in music, a triad is, is basically a chord. It’s playing three notes at the same time. Yeah? So when these three skills are deployed at the same time magic happens. So they are very foundational. Curiosity is one of them, energy is the other, how do we manage our physical energy? How do we manage our emotional energy, our mental energy. And in some cases, even how do we manage our financial energy?

Cuz if you’re thinking about all the money you don’t have and all the bills you do have, it’s really hard to be present in the work that you’re doing. So financial literacy is a part of that energy component. And then the last component is gratitude. And I wanted to mention that because gratitude really lifts is that, is that sort of, what’s the expression– the tide that lifts all boats. Yeah. If there’s one place that I can work with someone it’s, it’s gratitude. If I start anywhere, it’s going to be with gratitude because once we have gratitude, everything else opens up. And gratitude is really linked with curiosity. So to your question, you know, how do you practice? How do you become more curious? Yeah, there’s exercises that I work on with my clients and that, and that we go through. And, but the number one thing I think we could start to do to develop more curiosity is to develop our gratitude because the first part of a gratitude exercise is thinking about what we’re grateful for.

And if we haven’t done this before, it, it feels kind of hard, feels kinda weird. And once we start, it’s inevitable that we’re gonna run out of the big moments and then we go, oh man, is that it? Is that all I have to be grateful for? And that’s where the magic happens with this process because what makes the gratitude it’s called the three blessings, the exercise that I’m referring to. So in positive psychology I don’t know if this was invented by Martin Seligman but certainly popularized by him. He runs the positive psychology program at the University of Pennsylvania. So the, the three blessings exercises every night or at a time that’s convenient for you. I do mine right before I go to bed. You write down three things that you’re grateful for. It could be three things that happened that day. Three things in life really doesn’t matter.

But what’s interesting is that the smaller, these things are the better it is for your practice. So if I opened up, let’s just do this on a fly. So if I open up, I, I use notion. So three things I’m grateful for today. This is from yesterday, I got to fly to Chicago and enjoy an hour drive and a comfortable rental car- that is not an oxymoron friends. It was a comfortable rental car! <Laugh> And present to a room of HR professionals. Number two is I got to hear my daughter being silly on the phone when I called to say hi to her. And I mentioned how she’s starting to be a really great communicator. And number three is that I enjoyed a sandwich, a torta from one of my favorite sandwich shops in Chicago O’Hare airport. And I haven’t been out there since the pandemic started.

This was my first gig in Chicago. So I was thrilled to be able to get this sandwich from this sandwich shop! Those, when you think about gratitude are not monumental things, right. But they’re so important to this practice because it trains our brain to start looking for the little things and noticing them. And when we talk about curiosity, it’s I wonder. So as I’m reflecting it’s I wonder what I could be grateful for today. I wonder what if, what if it didn’t have to be winning a million dollar power ball for me to write it down on my gratitude journal? What if it could be as simple as a sandwich in an airport?

Leaders Need to Know Curiosity and Gratitude Can Shift Perspective

Jenn DeWall:  It’s thinking about, I mean, It’s that shift. Shift into recognizing that we all have so many more things around us than I guess that, you know, going from that scarcity or lack mentality, like we have so much, but yet we’re operating too fast, or we’re too busy or maybe we’re just overwhelmed that we can’t even stop down to or stop and slow down to smell the roses. I love bringing in gratitude. Yes.

Gregory Offner:  And, and, and Jenn, it’s also about gaining perspective. So one of the most gratifying experiences for me in terms of international travel we were talking about me going to Africa with my wife on our honeymoon a couple years ago. And while we were there in South Africa, there are townships. If, if someone’s listening and they’re not familiar with what a township is, it’s a ram-shackled development. I mean, development is using that word liberally it’s, it’s where people who can’t afford to live anywhere else live. And they’re generally not living in the best of circumstances and it’s generally not the safest place to live, but it’s, it’s where they live. And so I was very adamant that we take a tour of one of these and not to be disaster tourists, so to speak. But because I really wanted to understand, I mean, I live in Philadelphia, which is the poorest big city in the United States. And so we’ve, we’ve got poverty. I mean, I drive through it every day.

But I wanted to understand what it was like in another place. And what, what I, what I had been told was some of the poorest of the poor live in these townships. And we had a really amazing experience because there were only six of us on this tour. We were all about the same age and I guess the guide liked us. So he, he kind of was telling us more and showing us more and then ultimately invited us to go to a bar, basically in this township with him. And I was chatting with one fella at the bar who happened, I guess his kid was just there. I don’t know, maybe three years old max, that the kid was just hanging out. Kid’s smiling, he’s smiling. Everybody’s having a good time.

Gregory Offner:  And I said to him, I said, Hey man, do you mind me asking, what do you do? Like, how do you, how do you make money? And he said, oh, I I’m an HVAC technician. Now at least where I live in Philadelphia, HVAC technicians can make 70, 80, a hundred thousand dollars a year. I mean, that’s not a bad job. You certainly would have a home. And I said, man, like that job where I’m from is well-paying. And he said, I know. And I said, does that frustrate you, that you have a great job skill-wise, but your circumstances are having you live in this township here. And he looked at me and he said, I’m smiling. My son’s smiling. I have friends that I get to hang out with. He said, it’s all about perspective. And that has stayed with me ever since that conversation, because gaining perspective is truly how we can appreciate what we have.

If we’re not stepping out of the bubble that we live in. And we all live in bubbles, no matter how hard we try, we, we live in bubbles. But if we try at least to step out of it, what we learn about ourselves, what we’ve got is really transformational. And so this exercise, I think, will be so valuable to the listeners to try, because it starts to train the brain to look for those things that to us have become ordinary. It’s like, do you ever go, do you ever go visit a friend’s house for the first time? And you look around and you go, gosh, this is a beautiful house. I wish that I lived in a beautiful house like this, you know, my house, oh, the paint in the one room isn’t even, there’s some paint that’s on the ceiling. It’s not just on the wall, like bled through. And there’s always that crack on the baseboard that I see. And, ah, man, this is just a beautiful house. Maybe I do that because my dad was a carpenter and in construction. And so that’s stuff that I look for. But if you know what I’m talking about, you know that the second, third or fourth time you go over that friend’s house, you notice that there are some places where they have paint on the ceiling too, and where their baseboards are cracked. It’s just a matter of perspective. So give yourself the gift of that perspective of gratitude and watch what happens. Watch the transformation.

Jenn DeWall:  I want to go out and like stare and ah, and I think you’re right. There are points where it’s easy. You just forget. I live in the mountains or not in the mountains, but adjacent to. And I can forget about the beauty of the mountains because I see it every single day. Almost every time I walk, I see the mountains and we just need to remind ourselves to see things again. I just love that challenge kind of to asking us to think, how can you see it differently? See something old as new. Maybe I dunno if that’s necessarily the truest way.

The Hedonic Treadmill

Gregory Offner:  That’s exactly it. It’s about, I mean, it’s about habituation. So in psychology, there’s a term called the hedonic treadmill, and it talks about– the easiest way to exemplify what that means. If you’re not familiar with the term is that let’s say you make $40,000 a year and tomorrow your boss gives you a raise of $50,000. Eventually that $50,000 you will habituate to as the new norm. And it won’t matter. And you’ll need more money to get that same hit of dopamine. That same feeling of accomplishment. If money is how you’re judging your self worth and your accomplishment. Yeah. And you can call that the new car phenomenon and how we go out and get a new car. And then a year later, it’s just my car. It’s not the new car. You’re not necessarily in love with it anymore. Or maybe you get a new romantic partner and then a year later, they’re just that person I live with, I’m not saying that happens. I’m just saying we habituate to what we’re used to. Good and bad. Yeah. Folks put into bad circumstances can habituate to them. And then not notice that they’re in a bad circumstance anymore.

Jenn DeWall:  I honestly had this self conversation last night, driving over to bring a meal to a friend and I was driving her car. We just bought a new car in August. So exciting. This is the nicest car I’ve ever owned in my entire life. And I already started to look at it as like, it’s just a car. And last night I had to sit and be like, Jenn, you have a really nice car. It’s I mean, it’s not like a Ferrari, but for like me, like, this is a beautiful, nice car. Like I want to be able to step into it and be like, yes, I get to drive this. This is so exciting. It’s way better than my 2001 Volkswagen Jetta that I had with like broken things. Like I want to be able to constantly remind myself.

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Leaders Need to Know Energy Management

Jenn DeWall:  So – the skills we talked about, curiosity, and you talked about also energy. I wanna go into energy because I don’t know what you, when I entered the coaching space, if I said the word energy to people, it was like I said, the most Fu-Fu like high overly-conceptual word, but I it’s not and not, and not in how I experience. So how do you define energy? Let’s talk a little bit more about that. I know you kind of gave us the, you know, the triad, but what do you mean by energy as a skill?

Gregory Offner:  So you, you brought up your car. I’ll tell you, tell you my car story. I am not a sports car guy. I am not even a car guy, but I love the color blue. And I saw advertised online a Corvette, a blue Corvette, and I thought, Hmm. You know, maybe I’ll think about buying this Corvette. And so I started to look at it, the specs, the details, everything about the car and this advertisement. And I went to Kim, my wife, and I said, Hey got a question for you. I know it’s a little out there, but I’m thinking about buying this Corvette. And she gave me that look, and you can all probably hear this look, right. You’ll know it when I make this noise… Right?

You know, when you say something stupid and your partner, your friend just does the eye roll, like, okay, go on. And so I said, well, alright, it’s got brand new tires. The whole electronic system has recently been redone, like super dope stereo system. The seats are this gorgeous, like peanut butter leather, you know, like the light with like the dark pin stripy seats in there. It’s manual. I love manual. I haven’t driven a manual car in a long time, but I know how to do it. So like, that’s really cool. It’s just, it’s beautiful. Look at it. And it’s blue. She’s like, how much is it? I said $300. She goes, what? I said. Yeah. The thing is <laugh>, it’s just the shell of the car. They’re selling it without an engine. So I’d have to get an engine. And as like a summer project, my cousins built engines before, put an engine in the car and she goes, what is the point of buying a car without an engine?

<Laugh> yeah. And I feel the same way about this concept of energy. That our body is the vehicle for our brain. And if we’re not taking care of that vehicle, I don’t care if you’re an Ivy League graduate, your brain is not functioning effectively. So managing your energy is a business imperative. It’s not frou-frou Lululemon, crunchy granola on a mountaintop at sunrise. It’s a business imperative. And the fact that we don’t emphasize that or help our people understand how to better manage their energy is a crime. I mean, Zig Ziglar. One of my favorite motivational speakers used to have a bit about, would you if you owned a million dollar racehorse, would you let it stay out all night, give it cigarettes and whiskey to drink and then let it come home in the morning. And everybody goes, no, of course, I said, what about a $20 dog?

Would you let a $20 dog? If you owned it, let it stay out all night, howling at the moon, drinking whiskey, smoking cigarettes. They said no. He said, what about a $5 cat? He said no. And he said, and yet how many of you spend a night out at a restaurant, late night drinking, maybe having a cigar. You are a billion-dollar asset. You are irreplaceable. And yet we treat ourselves like a car without an engine. That’s a problem. And that’s where the energy really focuses in, on creating change for individuals and the businesses with, and the individuals within your business.

Jenn DeWall:  I love the way that you just described that Gregory. I think that’s, I’ve never heard it described like that. I think that’s a perfect way to describe it, and hopefully to drive home the importance of why we need to practice self-care and why we need to make sure that we’re treating ourselves with the utmost respect, love, and just, I don’t know, treating our needs, putting oil in the car, gas in the car at the right times, tuning it up, what we need to do. And I just feel like that’s still the thing that, how do you think people are resistant to like maintaining that in the workplace? Is it because there’s still this place of, we don’t talk about emotions at work. You just put your head down. Like I know that we’re seeing with the future of work. People are starting to be like, no, we have to pay attention to this. This is burnout here. And right now, so many people are stressed. I guess I stacked a lot of questions in there, so that’s probably gotta be real confusing to follow.

The Shifting Workplace Culture

Gregory Offner:  <Laugh>. Well, no. No, I we’re coming from a culture, and I remember my first year in sales <laugh> now admittedly, I had these Zig Ziglar tapes. So I’m gonna, I I’m, I’ll just tell the story and then I’ll explain why I think it’s ironic and funny. So I remember my first year in sales CEOs would want to schedule a call and they’d say, how early, you know, can we schedule? And this was my first job outta college. I finally have some money. So like, I’m going home and drinking. I’m going out. I finally got some cash, baby. I’m gonna go enjoy my life. That’s how I was living at the time. Now, admittedly, things are different since I was 23 or whatever I was. But so I would say to the CEO I don’t know. I was like nine. And in invariably they would say, look, I’m in the office at six so we can get started. And I would think to myself, I’m sorry, your life sucks. Like we are done this era of who’s in earlier, who stays later

Jenn DeWall: Preach!  <laugh>

Gregory Offner: We’re done! We’re done. And what the gig economy is a sign of is that people are not willing to sell their life to a company anymore. They’re just not. Cuz that’s what it was. What it was, was a job offer for. Here’s a salary, here’s the benefits. But we’re getting at you anytime we want. You’re a salaried employee. We effectively own you. That was the mentality of most corporate jobs and folks who are entering the workforce. Now, kids, I guess I can say that. Cause I’m 40 kids saw their parents go through this. They saw their parents go through 2008. What do I have to show for all of that sacrifice? And they said, not me. And again, back to that conversation of wifi, peer to peer payment, like we have new tools. We have tools that our parents and their parents didn’t have. And those tools, those new tools require new rules. And you’re seeing the workers of tomorrow, the leaders of tomorrow stand up and demand it. And there’s not a thing that business can do except adapt. So you ask why people are so resistant. I wanna know why businesses are so resistant? Hint- businesses are run by people. So there’s probably a tie in there. <Laugh>

It’s, it’s this, it’s this fear of change. And I had to confront that when I was losing my voice and trying to understand what my life was going to look like in the first couple of months, the first year of that process was, was scare, fear rather. I was scared. I was defensive. I was, I mean, I was moving money around trying to guard, how do I put this here? How to put, I was in protection mode. I’m not even 33. What protecting what? Like, dude, you got you hopefully ever whole life ahead of you. Like you protection mode is not where you’re at. You’re not like retirement age. You gotta figure this out. Yeah. And that’s when I started developing the skill of asking better questions and all of this led to increased curiosity. Well, so I, I may have stray a little bit for, from your, from your question there-

Jenn DeWall:  That’s okay. And I wanna get back to it cause we didn’t hit this as much yet. And I know in our prep call, we had talked a little bit about the gig economy and really what that is. You can go willing with it or you can go against it, but it is pushing organizations to change because it’s changing the way or the expectations that workers have. Why, you know, talking about what the gig economy is. And maybe we can level set to what that is for someone that is still, maybe unfamiliar. Hasn’t heard that term before. Why do we need to bring the big or the gig economy into the traditional workplace? Because these are, that’s what some of these skills are curiosity, right? Like that’s what you were driving toward energy. Why do we need to bring that into the workplace?

Gregory Offner:  Yeah. So I mean, if I go back to thinking about like the Mad Men era of business you made and met professional friends, you know, you get outta college and folks move on and they move geographically. So you made new friends at work. Well, we’ve got social media, we’ve got all sorts of ways to interact with and meet people all over the world. So work no longer needs to be this social club that people go to and, and maybe, you know, for good reason, it, it shouldn’t be anymore. Folks wanna go to work, do something, and then leave. Whatever that something is, needs to be quantified by the employer. But previously the employer didn’t have to put that much thought into it, cuz it was just expected that you show up at nine, you leave at five we’ll figure out what to do with you in between, here’s your money and folks are going no, no that, that don’t work anymore.

Putting Productivity Before Physical Presence

Gregory Offner:  Cause see, I can make money here over here on my own. I can make money here over here with my friend. We can start this other business. There’s a lot of negatives right? To the gig economy. For sure we can. We, we don’t, we can avoid that for this conversation and focus on the one positive. The gig economy allows people to show up, engage fully complete their job efficiently and effectively, and go on with their life. And business is so resistant to this idea ex unless you’re in sales, if you’re in sales, you can make your quota and then you can goodbye. You can go golf. You can go to Tahiti. I mean, it depends on what you’re, you know, what type of boss you have. But generally if you’re in sales and you’ve, you’ve met your number, nobody cares what you do with your day. You’ve done what’s expected of you.

Jenn DeWall:  I wish that organizations knew that. I’ve a few friends in sales and it’s always like, oh yeah, I hit my numbers in February this year. So now I get to coast and anything I make on top of this, like that is just so foreign to me to look at. But it makes sense in terms of I hit the numbers, I hit the targets. I created value in the way that, you know, I overly exceeded it. I don’t even know what other organizations would do to put that level of trust into people to extend that. Or so many other things to change and evolve.

Gregory Offner:  Well, the first thing they’d have to do is they’d have to decide exactly what they want done. And so this is gonna put more of the onus on, on the leaders, on the managers, to better define what success looks like in a given day. And then they’ve also gotta provide an offramp for accelerated success. So using in the insurance world, let’s say there’s an account manager and their job is to create certificates of insurance, a lot of administrative stuff relating to policies and policy holders.

So what if the bosses figured out exactly how many cert certificates need to be issued a day? How many of this and that, and the other item need to get done each day and then said, all right, if you decide to do this much extra, here’s the bonus we’ll give you, they need to start paying for productivity or else. The employees are going to choose options that will pay for productivity. Because I’ve met very few people who are like, I can’t wait to go to the office and sit there and watch Netflix and pop my head up over my cubicle, like a little cubicle gopher every five minutes to make sure that when the boss is coming, I open up a spreadsheet and pretend I’m doing something like who likes that game? Nobody.

Jenn DeWall:  No, I, you know, I, I mean it is time for a change. Like I worked for a large organization, and I just remember it, it, you know, how stifling or how much your motivation and even your sense of like why bother being productive? I think about a corporate culture where it was expected. Like first one in last one out, like you must be really just slaying your business, doing really great, but then you got no reward for being efficient. And the only reward that you got was essentially met with, well, it seems like you’re not doing your job because we looked at you and you were doing this, even though we didn’t look at your performance, we just looked at the time in and out. And it was, it drove me bananas, like I would see. And I still think that there are organizations where people are held to that standard of prove it to me, how much you want this and they are productive. But the only way that they’re supposed to prove it is by being in and out at these certain times, instead of saying, are you efficient? Because why would I continue to be efficient then if I still have to be there for the full day? Like, why would I be efficient?

Greg Solves the Traffic Problem!

Gregory Offner:  This? This is why traffic in America will never get better. My dad, I told you earlier is in construction. And the first day on a job site, if you’re new to the crew, you learn what speed they work at. Doesn’t matter how fast you can get a wall up. It matters how fast they’ve decided they’re putting walls up. And if you don’t fall in, they will push you out. Because there is no incentive to build that house, to build that structure any faster than you absolutely have to because, oh, they’re all paid hourly. So let’s just get to the end of the day. Don’t break your back, literally and figuratively, and let’s go have some beers. Same thing with road crews, same thing with road crews. So what if, what if instead we realigned incentives? What if, what if we created a situation where let’s say repairing a stretch, a five mile stretch of I-95, right? That’s a road here in the east. If you’re on the east coast, you know, I, 95, it’s the misery <laugh>. So let’s say repairing a five mile stretch of I-95. And I don’t know, these numbers are gonna be way off, but let’s say it’s worth $30,000 to every worker, right? Let’s pretend that’s a great number. I don’t know. And let’s say that it’s project it to get done in six months, five mile stretch repaired in six months. Great. If that crew gets it done in eight months, they still get $30,000. But if they get it done in three months, they get $30,000. They effectively double the value of that job to them. And we all know that road work is not going away. So it’s not a question of, we don’t wanna do it faster cuz there won’t be any more jobs! Buddy. There’s more jobs.

Gregory Offner:  There’s more jobs for road workers for sure. But the question and the pushback that would naturally come next is, well, they’re gonna cut corners. It won’t be safe. This is what I mean by realigning incentives. So if you pay the workers, the production workers per project, and then you pay the supervisors and the safety engineers and the auditors per hour. So they’re incentivized to go as slow possible. Take the extra time to check every defect, just make the double-check. Let’s make sure it’s done right. And you have the workers pushing against them. Come on, come on, let’s hurry up. We want it. We wanna get this done. Right? We wanna get outta here. The workers are now incentivized to come up with more efficient, safer, more effective ways to get that job done. Everybody wins! So why aren’t we doing it?

Jenn DeWall:  Why aren’t that’s because we need to. And in conclusion, we need to be willing to relearn. <Laugh> like, I love that you’ve provided so many great examples of what we can do. Why maybe we need to be curious, you know, going back to that foundational skill of thinking, like I forget, what did you say in the beginning as it relates to defining your future success? Like the plan is you’re doing the plan right now or right now, the way you’re doing it is the right way. I forget exactly the language.

Gregory Offner:  Oh, I see what you’re asking about. Yeah. So it’s the new way is the right way, is a way of thinking about those folks who are a bit resistant to change. And you know, let’s say you’re a new manager out there and you got that old salt on your team. That’s been doing it for 30 years and you’re, you know, you’re the junior Lieutenant. So to speak, to, to use an army reference. And they say, well, listen, listen, young whipper snapper. Does anybody say that anymore? Listen here. Listen here, sonny. Yeah. I’ve been here for 30 years and there’s a way that we do it. A perfectly acceptable response is to look at that individual and say, I appreciate that. But the new way is the right way. So let’s get through this together. Let’s figure out how we can win together.

It’s Not About Being Certain – Learn, Unlearn, Relearn!

Gregory Offner:  Cause that’s what it’s about. It’s not about being right. It’s not about being certain, you know, talking about, learn a no lesson and learn more. It’s not about being certain. It’s not about being right. It’s about making progress and moving forward, the folks who wanna stop progress tend to have a vested interest in the way things are. And so we have to have an honest question with them about, okay, what is the purpose of the work that we’re doing? What is the impact of the work that we’re doing? And then when we look at processes, I’d invite every leader here to turn themselves into a process hunter, to stop trying to justify a new way and start forcing the justification of the current way. If you didn’t do it this way today, would you start? That’s a great question to take back to your organizations, look at a process, any process, the way you track sales data, the way people clock in and clock out. If it wasn’t being done this way today, would we look at this and go, this is the best way for us to do this. If not, it’s time for a change.

Where to Find Gregory Offner

Jenn DeWall:  I’d love that. That’s a great, closer, Gregory. How can the audience get in touch with you? How can they hire you, bring you in.

Gregory Offner:  So I wanna, I wanna give them more than we had really time to go over today. I wanna give them access to all of those seven keys. So the first thing I’d invite them to do is to take out their smartphone and text the word “keys” text the word, K E Y S to the number 33777. So if you do that, if you text the word keys to 33777, I’m gonna send you, I think it’s gonna ask for your email and your phone numbers or, well, it’ll have your phone number and your name so I can send it to you personally. But I will send you a one-sheet with these seven keys of success so that you can decide how you wanna move forward. Maybe you, you get a book or you watch a Ted Talk or I can help you if you want some extra help in your organization with this development.

And if you don’t have access to texting 33777, I’ve been told this works all over the world. You can go to my website, GregoryOffner.com. There’s a button on there that says “Email Gregory“, send me an email, mention this podcast. I’m happy to send it to you. And then if you just wanna connect and see pictures of my daughter and where I’m at from place to place, you know what sandwiches I’m eating in airports across the universe, you can follow me on Instagram at GregoryOffnerJr. Or I’m also on LinkedIn. I I’d love to connect with you there. And tell me what stood out in this episode. Tell me what meant the most to you. What you’re gonna put into practice. I really do wanna hear from you.

Jenn DeWall:  I love that Gregory. Thank you so much for all the insights. I would love to have you back on the podcast again, just to have another discussion, but thank you so much for giving your time, your energy and your expertise to The Leadership Habit audience. We are very grateful for you.

Gregory Offner:  It’s a privilege and a pleasure, Jenn, thank you so much.

Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Greg Offner. I love my conversation with him. I felt like he just had such great energy and insight, but I know what you’re thinking. Okay. I want to implement this competitive advantage right now. I want my people learning, unlearning. That’s the important piece in relearning quickly and effectively, but where do I start? Gregory is offering us access to his performer’s process overview as a special thank you for our listening guests. Just go to GregoryOffner.com/perform. And you can get access to this video series right now. Absolutely free, no spam, just results.

And, of course, if you want help with your additional leadership needs to focus on engagement, communication, storytelling, or innovation, reach out to Crestcom. We would love to come in and offer a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop. And if you enjoyed today’s podcast episode, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Or, if you know someone that could benefit from hearing Gregory’s message, share it with them. Thank you so much for listening! Until next time.

 

The post Two Things Leaders Need to Know Now with Gregory Offner appeared first on Crestcom International.

Harness the Power of Stewardship with David R. York

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with David R. York to talk about The Gift of Lift: Harnessing the Power of Stewardship to Elevate the World. David is an attorney, a CPA, and a managing partner of York Howell & Guymon, named an Inc. 5,000 Fastest-Growing Company. David works with closely held business owners and ultra high net worth clients in the areas of tax and estate planning. He has authored multiple books, Entrusted: Building a Legacy That Lasts, and Riveted: 44 Values that Change the World. But today, we are going to be talking about David’s newest book, The Gift of Lift: Harnessing the Power of Stewardship to Elevate the World! Enjoy.

Meet David R. York, Author, Estate Planning Attorney and CPA

Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am so happy to be sitting down with David York! David, thank you so much for joining the show today. How are you doing today?

David R. York:I am doing great. I’ve been looking forward to our conversation.

Jenn DeWall: Oh, great! There are so many things that I talk about that I knew I remembered from our pre podcast call that I’m sure will come up here, but David, you know, you are an attorney, you’re a CPA, you’re a CPA, you’re an author of The Gift of Lift. Tell me a little bit about who you are and how you came to be.

David R. York: Yeah. You know, I always tell people as an attorney and a CPA, I’m two of the most boring people in the world wrapped into one. You know, and I’m someone who knows an awful lot about very little. But when I came into estate planning, I came from a really technical background being a CPA. I did taxes for years, and I came to look at estate planning as the how and the what, right? How do you do estate planning? What is estate planning? And what I came to realize is that those are not the right questions to ask. It’s about the why of your wealth and who is around you. And it’s so much more about the purpose and people than it is about property or profits. And so, I’ve been kind of on this journey of, of, re-discovery of what wealth is and impact and all those things.

Jenn DeWall: Gosh, how do you think you would’ve defined wealth? Like, you know, earlier in your life versus where you are today?

David R. York: Yeah. You know, early on, it was about what’s on your balance sheet, right? Show me your assets, and I’ll tell you what you’re worth. And it wasn’t too long before I realized that there’s really little correlation between that. You know, I see people who live with such meaning and purpose and direction in life, they have such clarity, and it has nothing to do with how much or little they have in the bank account. It’s all about knowing who they are and knowing the impact they wanna make in life. And so, what I came to realize is people who have a lot of money tend to have one thing in common. They’re good at making money. Right? But that doesn’t necessarily tell you that they’re happy, content, fulfilled, engaged, or any of those kinds of things.

Jenn DeWall: Right. And I feel like it’s something that I guess if I speak from my own experience, I think even the initial messages that I received in life were– I remember this, I wanted to join the Peace Corps. And the first thing that, you know, my mom had said to me was like, but that’s not gonna make you money. Yeah. And it was the starting of the lessons of, oh my gosh, should I be more concerned about the financial situation that I create? And should that be the purpose of like how, or should that be the motivator of how I choose or what do I choose to do? And I feel like, I don’t wanna say how many years later, but it’s many years later, I am on the other side of that. Feeling like you can have the money, but it’s not necessarily going to grant you happiness. And you wrote your book, The Gift of Lift. What inspired you to write your book?

What Inspired Your New Book, The Gift of Lift?

David R. York: Yeah, it was interesting. It was actually an experience I had six years ago with a client of mine and talked about success. She, her name’s Gail Miller, owner of the Utah Jazz, and one of the wealthiest women in, in the United States. And we were sitting down working on a trust that was gonna transfer the ownership of the Jazz with the golden intent of keeping it in the state of Utah. If you’ve never been to salt lake, we have beautiful scenery but not necessarily a lot to do <laugh>. And so, you know, the Jazz are really important to this community. And so she wanted to make sure it was. It stayed there. And so we were working on this trust and finalizing the details. And during the review of some of the documents, I just happened to ask her, I said, so how will it feel to no longer own the Jazz?

And she looked at me, and she said, well, I don’t own the Jazz. And she went back to review her documents, and I, I was like, mm, you know, that, it, it kind of surprised me. And you know, here I am, I’m her attorney and helping her with estate planning. So I’m like, mm. You know, she’s a really smart lady, but I was like, well, no, you actually do own the Jazz <laugh>, and I’ll never forget she stopped what she was doing. She looked over at me. She said, no, I’m a steward of the Jazz. And it was honestly one of the most powerful experiences in my professional career because I saw somebody who had actually transcended ownership. You know, for most of us, we think the highest thing you could be is an owner, right. I own a piece of property. I own a business. I own a sports team. And yet she, she was above that. She had something that was, was bigger than ownership. And so it really made me sit back and spend years thinking about, okay, what is a steward and what is the mentality of a steward and what makes them different?

What is Stewardship?

Jenn DeWall: Who is this? I mean, I wanna get into like, what is a steward, because I think that this might be something, again, I would put back to myself, like it used to be like, I want the ownership because ownership was equivalent to success to feeling like you’ve made it, for lack of a better description, not to say I’m here today, but that was probably some of the earlier lessons that I had. So when you think about who you had in mind for this book before we kind of dive into understanding it a little bit more, who are the people that you had in mind?

David R. York: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I’m probably gonna date myself here when I say this, but it’s kind of like playing slug-bug, you know, when you start looking for Volkswagens, you know, you start seeing them everywhere. And so, you know, the first thing I had to grapple with is, okay, what is a steward? And what I came to realize is that a steward is someone who’s fully invested in something bigger than themselves. So, at the essence, they have two things they have investment and they have transcendence. In other words, they’re all in, but it’s not about them.

And as I started to look at that, I started to see examples of people, you know, one example, Nelson Mandela, obviously spent years in, in prison in South Africa trying to end apartheid. What most people don’t know, though, is he was actually offered his freedom six times. He had the opportunity to walk out of, Robben Island prison six times. And each time, he refused— because every time he was offered freedom, it was conditional. He had to leave the country or you could never speak in public, or you could never run for office. They always put conditions. And for him, his transcendent value was freedom. And he knew that you are not truly free unless you’re fully free. And so, for him, he was willing to continue to pay the cost and make the investment because it was about something that was more than just him. If it had been about him, he would’ve walked out the front door. But it was about something more, and it’s powerful and it’s life-changing. That doesn’t mean it was easy for him. You know, I also think of, Susan B, Anthony, you know, she was one of the leaders of the suffrage movement. She actually died 14 years before women got the right to vote, but it was because of her and her efforts, and she was all in, and she was all about equality for women. But it took her years and years and years. And so you start to see these people who just live fundamentally different lives and the impact that they make because of those two elements of investment and transcendence.

Jenn DeWall: I never realized that Nelson Mandela was offered release. That is, you know, just to think about how purposeful, how intentional and the sacrifice that he had to make, to be able to stand for the cause. That is an incredible example. How do you think in, I mean, do you notice any moments that maybe that people start to make that shift or is it more intention or is it life forcing you to that?

Stewardship is a Mindset of Investment and Transcendence

David R. York: Yeah, you know, I think it’s about a mindset and unfortunately, and, and this is where I kind of saw it coming from an estate planning perspective because what’s the opposite of a steward? Well, it’s someone who lacks any investment and lacks any transcendence and, you know, I call those people consumers. Unfortunately, we see consumerism and the effects of consumerism all around us, right. That’s why the average American inheritance lasts 18 months. So you think about that, what people build and accumulate over the course of their lifetime is on average spent and consumed by the next generation in 18 months. And, and why is that? I, I think by and large is because what we say is we are gonna give you something that costs you nothing. So there’s no investment and there’s nothing bigger than yourself about it. And then we’re shocked when it’s consumed.

And, you know, I’ve had a lot of clients who they see that issue, or they see that consumer mentality, or they’re afraid that all their hard work is just gonna be dissipated. So they come in and they wanna put a lot of restrictions and limitations on how their money can be used and how it can be spent. But the, the opposite of consumerism isn’t minimalism. It, isn’t less, it’s about something fundamentally different. And I think that’s what we, we see in society a lot, right. Is this consumer mentality is I’m not gonna invest in anything and there’s nothing bigger than myself. And we have a whole lot of really unhappy people as a result. So, yeah, what I want people to understand is it is not about being a world leader. It’s not about being a, you know, a billionaire it’s about having a mindset of being all engaged, but about something more than just you.

Jenn DeWall: Yeah. It’s greater than you. Greater than what you’re there to do. And I like the perspective of thinking about it as a consumer approach that, you know, I think we’ve almost been conditioned to always think what isn’t it for me? Why should I care? What should I invest in? Instead of being like, but how could I help? How could I solve, how could I do this? In your book, you describe different types of leaders through your perspective. I’m curious. Could you tell a little, tell us a little bit more about the types of leaders?

Stewardship in Leaders

David R. York: Yeah. So then you think, okay, How do stewards express themselves in leadership? And I think they have a couple of things in common, first and foremost, and it’s kind of what we were talking about earlier. And that is, most of us live with what I call an if, then mentality of life, right? If I do this, then someone else will do this. Or if I accomplish this, then I will get this. And it’s all, it’s very, it is driven by expectation. And, and the problem with expectations is you either meet ’em, and at best you’re satisfied, or you don’t meet them. And then you’re unsatisfied, right? Steward leaders operate on a different mindset. It’s what I call the because/therefore, because of my transcendence, what’s bigger than me. Therefore I will do this. And what’s great about a because/, therefore, a model is it’s always achieved.

If you think about it, I say, okay, if I can grow and sell a business for $10 million, then I’ll be happy. Right. That’s sort of if then, and we see that in society. But if you say, because I value compassion, therefore I will foster a child. I will give to the local food bank. I will check on my neighbor. Who’s sick, right? No matter what, because/therefore will achieve, its purpose. You will add compassion to the world and that’s your driver. Right. And so, that’s, I think one of the biggest things is that, stewards are more about direction than a destination, right? A steward leader says, these are the values that I have as an individual. These are the values we have as a business. And we’re gonna advance that. It’s about direction, and direction creates pull. As opposed to destinations, which is all about either failing or arriving, but then you’re done.

Jenn DeWall: <laugh>. Yeah, it it’s, I mean, I like breaking it down like that. The, if, then the, this is what it is either we make it, or we don’t, if we are successful or if we are unsuccessful, this is what we’ll do. Instead of really leading with, I guess the core, the, I love the, because/therefore differentiator, because I think that, that one’s easy, maybe not easy, but from where I sit, sometimes it’s hard to find meaning in work when we live off of the, if/then like, okay, we’re just working like to, you know, get this job. But I like that therefore, because/therefore, or therefore, because like, I feel like it invites everyone into the conversation for how they can actually see themselves as a leader.

David R. York: Yeah.

Jenn DeWall: Instead of it just being a kind of person that’s out there, not really having control, not really maybe feeling like they let’s see, how am I trying to say that? I just feel like it’s more enticing. It’s more empowering to look at it in that way.

Finding Passion for Stewardship

David R. York: Oh yeah. It’s much more, it’s much more compelling. I, in 2019, back when you could leave the country and travel and have fun and do those things, I went with my family and went to Italy and, we got to tour a winery just outside of Verona, and beautiful it’s, but it had been around for– it’s a 130-year-old family business, fifth generation. And, we’re touring it. And we’re, I’m touring with, the daughter who’s running the family business now, raising the sixth generation there. And I asked her, I said, what’s the secret of a five generation hundred and thirty year old family business. And she said, it’s one word, you know? And I was like, geez, what is that word? You know, is it, family? Is it excellence? Is it wine? Like, what’s the secret? And she said it’s passion.

But I loved her description. What she said is it’s a beautiful work, but it’s also very hard. You have to both look up and see the beauty and look down and do the work. And I thought that was just a perfect example of stewardship because she was a steward of that land. There were four generations before her. She hopes there are four generations after her. So she was a steward. But for her, the beauty was the transcendence. But that beauty led to her engagement and that day-to-day work. Right. So she was able to do the work because of the beauty. Why was there the beauty? Because of the work. Right? And so they actually work really well together to create that passion that allows them to be around for that long.

Jenn DeWall: I love that perspective! So if you might be listening as David is talking about like even looking at what you’re doing and how it is, this cycle of things that can be fulfilling, that we are going to have, for lack of a better description, like the beautiful parts of our jobs that we love and the parts that we may not like that the work as you would describe it. But when we can merge those, when we put in that work, we can see that value, no matter what chair you sit in, or what title you have. So then let’s go to the other end of that. I know we’re gonna dive more in to really talk about what it means to be a steward. What’s the opposite of a steward at work?

David R. York: Yeah, it’s that consumer, right? It’s that person who says, what’s in it for me? And they lack that investment. They lack that transcendence. And so unfortunately it can either lead to, like I said, two, two things, your expectations are met, but how many of us actually get a bump in happiness when we get exactly what we expect? Right. it doesn’t really do much for you. Or your expectations aren’t met, which leads to anger and frustration and even depression. and you know, I see this with people who own businesses, right? You know, they, a study showed that is upwards of 70% of people regret selling their business within a year of the sale of their business because they thought it would bring them all of these things. Right. Like if I go and I do this and I build my business and I sell it for a bunch of money and put it in my bank all, all, then I’ll be happy. And the reality is it does not bring that happiness and contentment that they, they thought. And so, that’s the problem with being that if then it’s very, quite frankly, it’s self-centered, and it’s very expectation-based.

Jenn DeWall: And so if we look at that, what that looks like in a workplace, then it might be, just trying to think if there’s something off the top of my head, like maybe it’s, well, I don’t really wanna do that cause it doesn’t serve me. And then you, or what does, like, how do you see that show up for people’s work-lives or in people’s work lives?

Stewards Have Clarity of Purpose

David R. York: Yeah. You know, I think it’s a couple of things. One is I think when you can have clarity of purpose in a workplace, you actually draw people who are compelled by that. You know, and I tell people when you care about everything, you really don’t care about anything. Right. And we have to just realize that we are finite beings and we can’t care about everything. So what are those few things that really inspire us, guide us, direct us and make us tick. And so when you can be clear in a business about what your purpose is, you actually can draw other people who are like-minded and you get synergies from that. And the other huge benefit of having clear purpose is it actually makes decisions a lot easier. So, I worked with a family office, that they had just sold a business that had a great name brand, and you’d know the name brand.

And, they were looking for their next things that they were gonna do. So we went through an exercise to say, okay, what do, what do we want this, this company to be known for? And they wanted to be known for three things. They wanted it to be known for loyalty. They wanted to be known for integrity and they wanted it to be known for excellence. Now, unfortunately, the acronym was lie. So let’s set that aside, but <laugh>, they were like, okay, we didn’t think through that. But, that afternoon they were going through and they were deciding on what they wanted to do with an investment. And there was an investment that they could make, they’ve been thinking about it for months. And it was one that they could make some good money on, but it was kind of geographically remote and it would take a lot of time and effort.

And so they were kind of hemming and hawing, we could make money. What do we do? And I just asked them, I said, let me ask you this. Can you do this project with excellence? And they said done, we’re not doing the deal because yeah, we could make money, but we can’t do it with the excellence that we want to be known for. And that thing that’s bigger than us. And so, because we can’t do it with excellence, we’re not gonna do it. And so for them, it turned months of decision-making into a two-minute decision, because they had that clarity of that thing. That’s bigger than them. And, and it helped them drive what they decided to, how they decided to deploy their resources.

Jenn DeWall: I feel like, think about how much stress you could save humanity if you helped them get clear on, you know, even three things that will just get that around your passion and purpose. Just, gosh, I’m thinking about decisions that I’ve waffled on that if I actually started with that first, how I could have saved myself stress or even, I mean, what my, my husband would say too, is that sometimes I say yes to a lot of things, because I feel bad. Yeah. Not because it’s what I want to do, but it’s because I feel in some way that someone, you know, might be upset or not as happy. And then I feel like how that shows itself is being overscheduled not doing things with excellence in the way that I would want to, which had, I actually started with that, you know, purpose that would’ve been different.

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Practicing Stewardship

Jenn DeWall: Let’s think about the starting point. Where do you start? So if someone’s picking up your book and they’re thinking, how can I develop, you know, how can I develop into a better steward? How can I truly practice this? Where is the place that you would recommend that they start?

David R. York: Yeah. You know, it’s really good because when you’re talking about that thing, that’s bigger than yourself, inherently, that’s a really deep and personal question. And I think you, you, you hit the head on the nail on the head and that is for some of us, the problem isn’t about caring. it’s about caring about too much, right? Like the world gets so overwhelming and there are so many things. And so it’s really just about understanding that core of who you are. And the only way I think you can do that is through questions and stories. You know, I, I like to say it this way, knowledge and information inform, but questions and stories transform, you know, and I think one of the knee-jerk problems we have in society today is we live in the information age. Right. So what we think we lack is information. We’re like, oh, if I just had all the right information if I had, if I just had the podcast that told me the one thing I need to know, I can use that information. But the reality is I think we need transformation. And transformation comes from sitting with questions. So, you know, in the book, I actually, I’ve got like 50 questions and it’s, there are just things for you to sit down and ponder, like, for example. So I’ll ask you, what is the greatest compliment that you could, you could receive?

Jenn DeWall: You know, I think the greatest compliment I myself could receive is that I have in some way, inspired someone to see their life in a different way that they are yeah. That it’s for, and that one is probably that one’s yeah. I think it would be along with that of like feeling like they have the confidence and that they feel good enough to do something.

David R. York: Yeah. And what I love about that one, is it gives you a good insight into what your core values are, right? Like what, what do you value? Who are you? And then what I loved about, and, and this is a critical element of stewardship, is it’s about other people. Ultimately stewardship is about other people. And they realize that, that others’ perspective is actually what brings value. And so it’s really just a matter of, of that. What, and I mentioned it earlier, it, it, you described it, but, you know, if you could be known for three words, what are they, you know, what three words do you wanna be described as these are just questions that as you ask yourself and you wrestle with and you ask other people, you start to get that clarity. And then that clarity actually becomes a great rubric for you to go through and decide what to do in life. So as life tosses you all these different things, you can look through with that perspective of what is bigger than you, that you, you are going to invest in it.

Jenn DeWall: What’s what if, like, what’s the opposite in the, you know, if I think about the answer I just gave and is there, is there such a thing as being too much of a steward?

Finding Balance, or Counterbalance

David R. York: Yeah. No. The great thing to me is, you know, it’s funny, one of the buzz words you hear in the world today is balance, right? Like, oh, we need to have balance work-life balance, all of that. And to me, balance is about more or less. but I actually think we shouldn’t seek balance. We should seek a counterbalance. And counterbalance comes when you, actually balance two things against each other to give more strength to the other. And so, think about an elevator, an elevator works based on counterbalances. It actually doesn’t take a lot of energy, because all it takes is a little bit of effort on one side and you’ve got the weight of the other working together. So, you know, it’s kind of like, salty and sweet together, right? How, how good is salted caramel ice cream, right?

It’s not about, oh it need to be more sweet or less sweet. It’s about adding that salt. That brings something different. And so, what I tell people is you get far more power when you combine that transcendence and that investment together. So, it’s not about titrating life up or down. I need to work more. I need to work less. No, this needs to be about why do you work? And that why will actually lead to that, that deeper engagement, but because it’s bigger than you, it actually takes some of the pressure off. Because it’s not something that you can achieve. It’s something that you can express.

Jenn DeWall: It’s not an end destination. No, I feel like there, there has to be, I don’t know someone listening to this podcast, hopefully feeling like I now have freedom in some capacity, freedom to understand the purpose, but to let go of what I feel. And maybe this is my self projecting. Like there’s often this vision of perfection that is supposed to hit everything. And I think that can be really restrictive. It can challenge the way that I might look at success, how resilient I might be, whether or not I pursue it or I give up in general. And I like that. It’s, you know, it’s the journey. It’s, it’s the journey. It’s what you’re doing in the middle. It’s not, I think too often we get caught up in the, in the outcomes, as you’re saying, like we get so caught up in, what does success look like? Or how will I know when I’ve made it?

Avoiding Perfectionism

David R. York: <laugh> yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree. And then I think the other thing you hit on, which is huge is this problem of perfectionism, right? And there are actually all these studies out there that show that the levels of perfectionism are going up, like the expectations we have on ourselves, the expectations we have on others, just keep going up and up. And there’s a guy named Barry Schwartz, I think. And he came up with this term called “satisficing“. And basically, it’s about getting to the point of being satisfied with good and achieving an expression of what you value as opposed to, well, it’s gotta be perfect or I can’t do it at all. Right. So we just create these binaries of it’s gotta be absolutely perfect or I’m not interested. As opposed to, taking a step back and realizing, you know what, I can do a good job on this. and I, I may not be a perfect friend. I can be a good friend. I may not have the perfect advice, but I can beef with someone. Right. And just helping to, to again, take some of that pressure off, because it’s not about achieving it’s about advancing

Jenn DeWall: Well, and it’s that’s that achievement is just rooted in that judgment. I remember in my twenties when, you know, I just can remember the first time that I had a boss tell me, Jenn, it’s about living in the gray. Yeah. But I think that was the hardest leadership lesson to really understand, because up until that point, life was a destination, there was enough judgment to tell me if what you’re doing is right or what you’re wrong, which then adds into that level of perfectionist thinking of like, I must do this as a right way. Like how do you even begin to think in the gray? Like if you, like, what are some of the questions that not even, this is kind of putting you on the spot in maybe a more conceptual way, but like how did you start to learn to live in the gray of like good enough?

You’re like, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Like, I don’t know if you had any tips that you used because I still find that’s hard. It’s hard to know that we’re supposed to live in the gray, but then still assess ourselves as either winning or losing. And so I don’t know if you have any tips for how you’re able to come back and be like let’s refocus or is that always coming back to the why and the purpose and the passion? Or am I stacking way too many questions into this podcast where I’m at right now to even answer, it’s probably a mix of all.

David R. York: No, I think it’s great. And I think, first of all, when I figure it out, I’ll let you know. Right. We’re all on a journey. <laugh> but, I think one of the issues that we have again is just such a lack of self-awareness. and I think we struggle so much. They did a study a couple of years ago, and they were looking for like the key characteristics of leaders in businesses. Like what, what is the key characteristic of, of highly successful businesses? And, they were like, we think we found it because we were not looking for this. But they said the number one characteristic of successful leaders is self-awareness. That they knew who they were. They knew their strengths, they knew their weaknesses. And again, counterintuitively, it takes a lot of the pressure off when you can understand fully who you are and you know, the gaps that you need and the people to surround yourself with.

Self-Awareness is Key to Leadership

David R. York: And it actually brings a huge sense of, humility, when you can actually be self-aware and humility is a great antidote to pressure and pride and all those things. it is kind of funny. I did see a breakdown the other day between male leaders and self-awareness and female leaders. And so they, they did a study and it was like 4% of male leaders were self-aware and 19% of female leaders were self-aware. So depending on how you can look at it, you’re like, oh, women are five times more self-aware than men. Or you can say no 80% plus aren’t self-aware either. Right. So yeah, but I do think it’s interesting because in general you do find women who are more relational. They, they tend to ask a lot of questions and tend to just understand a bit more of who they are. But I think that’s the key, is understanding that self-awareness and who you are. I think it makes you a better leader. It makes you a more mellow leader, and I think it makes you ultimately far more impactful.

Jenn DeWall: I love, I love that stat that you just gave to even think. Yeah. 80% of people actually aren’t as self-aware as what they probably think they are. Yeah. Because I bet most of those leaders probably I think if you ask, if I ask that question to a class at Crestcom, I’m sure the majority of people would say like I’m pretty self-aware.

David R. York: Yeah. In fact, what are the markers of a lack of self-awareness is if you think you’re self-aware! <Laugh> Like <laugh>, You know, like they did a, they did another study. I saw like, if you, if you think you can multitask, you actually can’t. They said it’s actually the people who don’t think they can, that actually can, because it’s such a small percentage, but honestly like a truly self-aware person is gonna be open to maybe there’s something I don’t know about myself. so yeah, if you, if you’re certain you’re self-aware, it’s probably an indicator that you’re not.

Jenn DeWall: I feel, oh my gosh, I’m just laughing. Cause I’ve definitely heard, you know, I’ve seen the example in leadership where I’m talking to a leader and they would be the self-described, like I’m a people person. Yeah. And then you watch them and you’re like, but you are the opposite of a people person. I’m not sure if you can see that about yourself, but I don’t know. Or did someone tell you that and not maybe give you that feedback throughout the way? Because you do see that like I’ve absolutely hear, that’s not even, I’ve heard that a few times of someone saying like I’m a total people person and in my head I’m like, but I don’t think you realize like how your words are actually impacting all these people and they may not describe you with that language.

David R. York: <laugh> yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s so funny when I was a kid, my mom told me once that I was, I was patient I’m like such a patient person, because I like to, to, I was go, I went fishing and I could spend hours doing that. She’s like, you’re so patient. So, I grew up thinking I was patient. It was not until like 10 years ago I realized I am so impatient. I’m like the world’s most impatient person. but someone told me that and I believed it. The only reason I was patient, I liked fishing. I was impatient getting there. I was impatient heading home. I just happened to like that. And so I agree with you. I think sometimes we get these things both positive and negative in our head that are not truly who we are. and it takes some of that internal work. Like even just like, like what does a counselor do at the end of the day? All they’re doing is asking your questions. because you have the answers. You just, you need to be asking the questions to actually get to who you are.

Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. It’s I love that. It’s it really is questioning yourself in a kind way, in a curious way. Or I guess what advice would you have in terms of how they should be asking these questions? Because I think any, like, do you have any pitfalls that they should watch out for? Because I think again, we might just be starting with like, well, what does, you know, hitting the millionaire circle look like for me, this destination? I think it might be easy to even ask your yourself leading questions. So I don’t know if you have any pitfalls that you would maybe avoid or any guidance around like questions of open-ended. I mean guess is, is the first one of like open ended, but how do you answer ’em do you write them down? Do you just reflect and meditate on them?

David R. York: Yeah, I, I think it really is. I think it’s a matter of just, and the big thing too, I think is avoiding the posing, right? Like we’re all supposed to give answers a certain way. And I think the key is just to ask yourself the questions and then give yourself honest answers. Not like, what are you supposed to say? Or not, what other people think. But, but honestly, what do you think? I, I really think that’s the key, but it does take time and it does take effort.

Jenn DeWall: Yeah. It’s well, and it’s hard. I think that for some, depending on where you are in your life and what’s going on, when you’re asking yourselves these questions, your answers might lead to things that require some heavy lifting or some different choices and changes that I’m sure can elicit all of the fear or emotions or feelings of well, if I go back to like what really matters to me, you know, and it’s having that imprint or I forget the exact question that you had phrased, like, and then you find out, oh my gosh, is this, where is this where the midlife crisis happens, David? Is that why we start answering the question is too late in life. And then we’re go, we go into panic mode and buy the sports car.

David R. York: <laugh> yeah. I mean, honestly, one of the nice things about the mirage and not getting there, is it still drives you forward. Because you think once I, you know, if I get there, then I’ll be happy. And I see that with, with so many people. And I remember, I mean, geez, even when my, my wife and I got married, I’m like, okay, if we could save up a thousand dollars, then I’ll feel completely financially secure, right? Like you’re living paycheck to paycheck and you’ve got nothing. And then you get that. And then it’s like, oh, if we could get just a little bigger house, if we could just have this or that, and you finally hit enough of those destinations and they don’t actually move the needle in life, I think that’s what midlife crisis is, is honestly, when you’ve checked off enough boxes that were supposed to make you content and happy and they didn’t. Then you’re like, then you start to realize, well maybe the next five boxes I’m working for. Aren’t gonna do that for me either. So maybe it’s not about checking boxes.

Asking Yourself the Right Questions

Jenn DeWall: Yeah. It’s about asking deeper questions. Well and understanding. I mean, I’m not sure. What do you see with, with how, like writing this book? Like, I don’t know if you notice those times then? Is it, do you ask the questions when we’re going into that new promotion or going into a new field or becoming parent or is any time the right time to ask the questions of yourself?

David R. York: Yeah, I think it, every time is good! And it actually, it’s good to, ask your, to continually ask yourself. Because the reality is we are affected by life experiences, by good things and bad things and struggles and trials and difficulties. And actually you see so much growth. I see so many people who have gone through difficulties in life, and you talk to ’em about it afterwards. None of them would go back and not have that struggle or trial. They don’t necessarily wanna go through another one. Right. But it’s in those times of struggle and pain and difficulty where we actually get to an understanding of who we are, because a lot of stuff gets stripped away. And so I do think it’s good to re-ask yourself because who I am and what I value and what I believe has changed over time. And that’s not a bad thing. So I do think constant that self-reflection is really valuable.

Jenn DeWall: So once you get those answers, like what, what is it like, how do you actually transcend? Like, is that as a result of small steps? Is it, I don’t know if you have any tips and techniques on like, you know, once you realize what that purpose is, how can you live in alignment with it?

David R. York: Exactly. Yeah. That’s the right question is once I understand that thing that is bigger than me, then how am I gonna invest in that? And, and everybody has three things they can invest. You can invest your time. You can invest your talent, you can invest your treasure, right. You know, you can invest. And your time is really the most precious commodity. That’s the interesting thing I’ve I noticed is I don’t care how much resource financial resources you have. We all have the same amount of time. And that becomes the most precious to people when they have, extra financial resources. But where am I gonna invest those things in that thing? That’s, that’s bigger than myself. So actually, I find the investment side is actually easier. Once you understand the direction you want ahead. You.

Jenn DeWall: So if I was, so if I was thinking about how can I take it? Because I love your book is gonna drop on June 6th. We want people to get The Gift of Lift. You know, we rise by lifting others. How can we become that steward first starts with asking you the questions, you know, and then thinking based on those answers, where are you going to invest your time, your talent, or I love that your treasure I’m like, do I have enough treasures to invest myself? I don’t know when you say treasure. It makes me feel like I need to have a big chest with a lot of gold coins in it. <laugh> and I dunno if I have that, you know, but I’m teasing, but really thinking. So that’s the investment of that going through and thinking, how do I want to invest my time, talent or treasure? What are other tips that you have for people as they’re really embarking on this life of stewardship?

Stewardship Lies in Meaning and Impact, Not Money

David R. York: Yeah. I, again, I do think it’s important to realize because you know, to me, we think money is a lead indicator of investment, right? Like the more money you have, the more investment you can make, the more impact, I oftentimes find money is a lag indicator. It comes after your investment of time and hard work. You know, I cannot tell you how many clients I work with that, come from absolutely nothing and they have that high level of cost. But the reality is that cost is the only thing that actually brings value. and when we, we try to bypass cost or pain or work, we actually end up undermining value. So, honestly, I just think it’s a cop-out to say, well, I don’t have enough money, so I can’t make a difference in the world.

I mean, go back to the people in your life that made the biggest impact in your life. You think about those people. I think about an eighth-grade math teacher who believed in me. I don’t think she had a lot of money. She made a lasting impact in my life because she actually believed in me and it was one of the first teachers who ever did. Right. So, I think we just need to reframe what impact looks like. And it really is just a matter of taking your time and investing your talents and, and most people who have financial resources it’s because they invested those first two things.

Jenn DeWall: My gosh, David I’ve loved our conversation because I feel like it’s, it’s soul-filling. When we really think about our purpose, which is often the legacy that we leave, that we, I think that’s the last question that we actually think about is like, did I do it right? I love your approach and really thinking, how do you wanna show up today? Like how do you wanna live your life? Not the destination you’re going to because we make a lot of assumptions. I mean, you see it from the perspective as an estate planner, I maybe watched it in terms of watching both of my parents, everything they worked for, be gone within a matter of years. And then you really that it’s through those situations that I think they force those questions, but everyone that’s listening to this has the opportunity to ask yourselves those questions. Now, instead of waiting for that situation where you might be forced into it, this is your opportunity to think about what your life can look like. What benefits have you seen? Because in closing, I, I wanna, I wanna sell it. Like, why do people need to hear this right now? If they’re going through blank? Like why do they need to hear this message right now?

David R. York: Yeah. Because ultimately, the most content, the most impactful people are the ones who seek meaning in life and not happiness happiness is just such a fleeting temporary thing. And honestly I think a lot of us come to realize that, you know, it’s just the, it’s the hit of adrenaline that doesn’t last. But meaning comes from being deeply engaged in having other people involved. And so I think that, you know, maybe that’s a question you need to ask yourself, is, am I living life for happiness or am I living it for meaning? Because it’s gonna look very different.

Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I love that. As a closing question, are you living your life right now for happiness or are you living your life for meaning, David? How can people get in touch with you? Your book drops June 6th, where can they purchase it? Tell us all the details.

Where to Find The Gift of Lift on June 6th, 2022

David R. York: Yeah, it’s on all the natural resources, you know, Amazon, Kindle, Barnes & Noble. We’re working on an audio version for those like me who like to listen to books, but then you can also go to DavidRYork.com. I’ve got a Ted Talk on there about wealth and looking at wealth differently, and some other resources as well.

Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for your insights. Thank you so much for just your perspective. And I hope that the questions that you posed today brought some people to powerful answers so how they can live their life with more meaning. Thank you so much for being on the show, David!

David R. York: Anytime! I loved talking with you.

Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope that you enjoyed my conversation with David and that you are leaving feeling inspired, wanting to ask yourself some questions so you can find more meaning. If you want to pick up your copy of The Gift of Lift, just remember it, it drops on June 6th, but you can actually get special pre-launch pricing for Kindle now! And if you want to connect more with David, find more resources that he has available, or just check in, see how you can book him for speaking head on over to DavidRYork.com and finally check out, his Ted talk all about building wealth.

 

The post Harness the Power of Stewardship with David R. York appeared first on Crestcom International.

Minisode: Leadership Presence with Jenn DeWall

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall! And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, we’re doing a minisode on leadership presence, which is actually something we just discussed in Crestcom’s monthly webinar! You’ll have to go to crestcom.com/leadership-resources/ to check those out! Today the topic is leadership presence—projecting confidence with authenticity.

And as we start this, I want you to just reflect on when you first learned what leadership presence was. Was it something that someone sat down to tell you about? Was it something that you observed or you learned throughout your life? For many people, it’s actually something that we learn on the job. This means that we can often make some mistakes, errors, and missteps before realizing we weren’t supposed to do that.

How Do You Define Leadership Presence?

I want you to also think, how do you define, how do you know whether someone has leadership presence or they don’t? Because over 50% of HR practitioners believe that executive presence is difficult to define, meaning that we all have different expectations or different ways that we actually assess presence.

And here’s the other statistic from those HR practitioners over 80% believe that it’s easy to spot. So even though they might think that it’s hard to define, it’s actually easy to spot. I like to describe leadership presence as our shadow. It’s what is always with us. It’s what people see, and leadership presence is a felt presence. And whether we like it or not, perception is reality. And again, I think this is important to know– that presence may be easy to spot, but we have to be mindful of the role that our own experience and bias can play that can give favor to someone’s presence.

But what is leadership presence? It is defined as the ability to connect authentically on both an intellectual and an emotional level to motivate and inspire others toward a desired outcome. It is leadership. It’s also the ability to project confidence and composure under pressure.

That means someone might make marks against your leadership presence. If, for example, you are in a meeting and you disagree with what someone is saying or maybe the direction it’s going to go. And instead of having a productive conversation, you might shut down, and your body language might move inwards. Your communication might actually be rude or condescending, or defensive. And people again are looking at that to determine, is this a leader I want to follow? Can I trust them?

Why is Leadership Presence Important?

Why do we need to care about what leadership presence is? According to the Center for Talent and Innovation, CTI, leadership presence accounts for 25% of what it takes to get promoted and impacts our individual success. It impacts whether we get promoted and whether we communicate in a way that makes people want to work with us, collaborate and do what we need them to do! It can also impact employee engagement and turnover.

When employees are working with a leader they might deem as a bully or insensitive, or overly authoritarian— you’ll likely find that they shut down and look for a more supportive and productive workplace culture. Workplace presence also impacts our productivity and our ability to be resilient. And even how we treat our customers.

The Four Pillars of Leadership Presence: Gravitas, Communication, Appearance and Character

Now, there are four main areas of leadership presence. First is gravitas, and that’s essentially how you act and project your confidence— your actions. And that really plays into perception is reality.

The second area of leadership presence is communication. Not only how we communicate verbally but also non-verbally. What’s your body language saying about a conversation? Are you engaged, or are you shut down?

And its also appearance. But I would again say that there’s an asterisk next to this one. Because it depends on the industry that you’re in and the workplace culture in terms of what the expectations are for dress and appearance. Many companies have different expectations. And this poses a unique challenge as it relates to leaders in bridging the gap.

So, for example, let’s say that you’re onboarding a new employee, and this employee came from a more casual culture. You might notice that they come in, and as far as their physical appearance, they come off as more casual. And you might find yourself judging them. Like, don’t they take this work seriously? Why aren’t they dressed like a professional? But you see, if you didn’t have the conversation with them, they dress based on what they know success looks like. And so, again, remember that appearance is something that we need to challenge.

And then, of course, the final area of leadership presence is our character. You can think about that as our values, what we stand for. And, of course, what we fall for.

The Center for Talent and Innovation actually describes this mix in three parts. Gravitas— how you act— accounts for 67% of your leadership presence. 28% is communication. And again, that’s both verbal and nonverbal, and then only 5% is appearance.

What Can Harm Your Leadership Presence?

But what do you need to watch out for? These are the things you could do that would negatively impact your leadership presence, or they’re eroding whether or not people want to trust you or follow you. One- the blame game. Hey, did you see what happened here? It’s all your fault. I’m not taking any responsibility for it. No, it’s their fault. They didn’t send the email. They didn’t do this. When you can’t take responsibility. It says that I can’t trust you. The second pitfall of leadership presence is inconsistency. People want consistency. Our brains actually operate better when we understand what’s expected of us. If you find your emotions change day to day, meeting to meeting, and that you aren’t consistent in how you react to problems or challenges, or maybe some days you actually go off the deep end when someone makes a mistake. But for others, you might have more empathy. Chances are, someone is going to assume your worst is your best. And then they might say, I don’t want to follow this person.

Another pitfall of leadership presence is closed-off nonverbal cues. I know you can think of this person in a meeting with their arms crossed, and there are 20 other places they would rather be. If you are that individual, it’s telling people I’d rather not be here, or I don’t have any interest in this conversation or entertain me. And again, it’s creating this perception that you’re distant, disengaged, and maybe not even worthy or willing to collaborate with others.

Other pitfalls of leadership presence would be: listening to respond. Leading from the tower, pretending that you are above it. If you want to have a productive and appropriate leadership presence, you must be willing to get your hands dirty and do the work, not just point and look down at others, especially in a time of crisis.

And of course, another pitfall is a lack of professionalism, not understanding what you’re saying or how you’re saying it and how it could be construed by your audience. And this is what I want you to pay attention to. When are people determining or essentially judging your leadership presence?

Well, one— first impressions! Are you meeting people with a nice, positive greeting, or are you indifferent to their presence? Maybe you don’t even look them in the eye or show them that you care that they are there. So first impressions when you’re first meeting a customer, a potential business partner, or even a new employee during that interview process. If they get the impression that you are not supportive or not open. That might signal to them that that’s not the right fit for them, which is important to pay attention to, especially where many companies compete for top talent.

Leadership presence can also be undermined by your dress and attire. Are you wearing clothes with stains on them? Because you know, sometimes we have to take care of ourselves a little bit, or are you wearing really wrinkled clothing in your industry? Again, depending on what people are used to, they may want to see you in a different way. And so it’s very important to understand who you’re trying to influence and what their expectations are. And again, I understand that this can also be latent bias or that bias can be attached to appearance. But it also is something that we have to pay attention to.

Presence is also determined by your communication style. How do you communicate what you say? Are you condescending? Or do you offer respect? And taking that one step further, even what you put online. What you’re putting on LinkedIn or your social media, if people can see that they’re making assessments about you, leadership presence is also determined in the face of crisis. Are you the leader that’s going to help us whether and navigate this crisis? Or are you the leader that might actually take us down?

How to Build Your Leadership Presence

So, how to build a leadership presence? First and foremost, understand this communication is a strong piece of leadership presence. And 70% of our communication is nonverbal. So it’s not always what you say, but it’s how you say it. An example of nonverbal communication is the tone that you use. Whether that’s an email or text message, or even just in a regular conversation. Also, your posture. Is your posture up? Are you slouched over? How are you moving your body? What are your facial expressions? Are you rolling your eyes? Are you smiling at inappropriate times? Eye contact. Now, of course, this is cultural. Is it appropriate to make eye contact when first meeting someone or communicating with someone? And hand gestures touch and, of course, physical distance.

But let’s talk about the six ways to build a presence. It starts with intentional communication. Number two is consistency. Three is practicing empathy, and four is emotional intelligence. Five is connecting with others, and six is owning your value.

Intentional Communication

So let’s talk about intentional communication. The tip for developing your leadership presence through intentional communication is to make sure that you’re doing your research. What level of knowledge does that audience have? Do they, are they in the meetings with you? Meaning they’re very familiar or are unfamiliar with it. And are you adjusting your communication appropriately also? So when you’re going into a meeting or a presentation, or maybe you have something important to say to your boss, are you trying to talk about multiple topics? Or are you focusing on one topic? When we have a tendency to stack topics, it can actually confuse our audience. So make sure that you’re thinking through how much time I have, what I want them to know, and creating a structure accordingly. Also, understand less is more, especially if you are crunched for time. You want to make sure that your message is heard, but make sure that you’re eliminating filler words or things that actually have nothing to do with what you’re talking about.

And one of my favorite tips, and many of you have likely heard this before, is when you are communicating, pretend that your words, the language you use, whether it’s in your email or in a conversation, will be placed on a billboard. Would that be something that you would want put on a billboard attached to your name? If the answer is no, it’s best that you rewrite or think of a different way to say something. And, of course, the final piece of rounding out intentional communication— always, always, always think before you speak!

Now, if you’re going into a presentation or a meeting, consider these tips, the power of the pause. When you pause, you allow your audience to actually process what you’re saying. However, sometimes this can be difficult if we don’t prepare, or if we’re nervous, we might have a tendency to increase our rate of speech.

And we might just jump over their pauses, which makes it more challenging for the odd to follow our conversation. More communication tips for a meeting or presentation, always explain the why. If you’re asking someone to do something, make sure they understand how it relates back to them. Or, to say it in a different way— what’s in it for me? The WIIFM! I like to also practice the rule of three. If I’m going to a meeting, I like to think what are the three things that I want them to walk away with. To do, think or know? And then, I’ll structure my conversation and presentation around those three things.

And the other piece with communication is to consider what words and phrases you want to avoid that can negatively impact your presence. Filler words! Just like I’m sure that you’ve heard some of them in my speech already. We all have them, but if we want to have clear communication, this is where practice and preparation can help us reduce the filler words. Another phrase that I absolutely wish everyone would get rid of is,  “does that make sense?”Does that make sense signals to your audience that you might be confusing, and it also signals to yourself that maybe you’re not communicating clearly when we asked. Does that make sense? We’re assuming that the audience didn’t hear a message. So instead, wait for people to ask questions. Another phrase to avoid. I don’t know when we say, I don’t know. Yes, it’s forgiving. But another way to say that might be, let me check into that for you instead of, I don’t know or let me think about that for a little bit longer. Other phrases to avoid. I haven’t prepared much. Well, then why are we here? Or I’m sorry, I’m sorry. It can weaken your confidence and, then again, make your audience turn away from you. I hate to bother you. I might be wrong but avoid those phrases. If you want to come off confident.

Consistency

The second thing you can do to develop your leadership presence is be consistent, which means you need to be present. Do what you say. You will practice what you preach. Don’t just talk about it. Be about it. You must be the one that leads by example. And to do this, to help you, you might want to create a personal mission statement to guide you. That can determine what behaviors, words, or how you want to show up.

Empathy

The third thing to build leadership presence is to practice empathy. To be an empathetic individual requires us to be foundationally curious. Every single person is both our teacher and our student. We can learn something from everyone, and you know what? Sometimes we make really bad assumptions, and these assumptions can not only create conflict. They can create and damage our relationships and erode our communication. But when we lead conversations with curiosity, we likely will come to a different solution because we’re letting go of the judgements we had walking into it. Another way to practice empathy is to be flexible. Understand that your way may not be the way that works for everyone. And that’s okay. As long as you’re getting to that same destination that you both need to get to another tip, assume positive intent, assume that people actually want to work hard. They want to do well. And that they aren’t actually trying to erode or diminish or thwart your efforts assume positive intent that goes hand in hand with curiosity, you go into a difficult conversation, and you lead with I’m sure there’s something I’m missing. Assume positive intent. And then practice curiosity. You might be surprised at the direction that conversation goes. And of course, give, give, trust. Often our ego says, prove to me that I should trust you. If we want to give empathy, we want to assume positive intent. So we’re going to give trust to people.

Emotional Intelligence

The fourth area of leadership presence and how to develop it is your emotional intelligence. Your emotional intelligence consists of multiple parts. Your self-awareness of who you are, your ability to manage yourself, and how you perceive your relationships. And then, of course, how you react and interact in your environment. So if you want to exercise emotional intelligence, which is actually the foundation of presence, you want to understand who you are. To do this, you could think about your triggers. What things can get under your skin that you might then have an emotional reaction that you don’t want to have?

If you, once you’ve identified that trigger, let’s say if someone’s late for a meeting, that triggers you because it says that in some way, they’re not respecting your time. Once you identify that trigger, I want you to ask yourself, what’s another to look at it. Maybe that person was stuck in traffic. Maybe they were derailed because they had to talk to a teacher after dropping their child off at school. Assume positive inten! Other ways to build your emotional intelligence— maintain our composure, practice deep breathing, make sure to get feedback on how others see you, but also be receptive to feedback. Sometimes our ego will say, there’s nothing wrong with me. I do everything. This is their issue. Well, there are two sides to every story.

Connection

And remember, with presence, perception is reality and, of course, understand what the needs of others are. If you want to know how to navigate the environment you’re in, including the team you’re on, you need to listen and pay attention.

Who are the individuals that you’re working with? What are their strengths? What are their opportunities? How do they like to be rewarded? The fifth is to connect with others. If you want to build your presence, be a human being! Incorporate water cooler talk into your meetings and ask non-work questions such as what’s your favorite karaoke song or what’s your favorite color? I know this might feel like it’s a time-waster, but it’s actually a time-saver because it’s improving the relationships and communication and collaboration abilities of those that you’re influencing. And if you want to connect with others, know that we are all more alike than we are different and work to find common ground.

One favorite activity that I love is to just have maybe groups of three or four, sit together and time them. And they can have five minutes to come up with something that they actually all have in common. It’s a quick way to see again that we’re all more alike than different and to get people talking. And the last piece that’s so important with connecting with others is to make sure that you’re creating psychological safety. Are you creating an environment where people feel free from retaliation and discrimination and feel free to be themselves?

Own Your Value

The final piece of building leadership presence is to own your value. And to do this, we want to see everyone as human to know that we can learn from them. And that just because they may be great doesn’t mean that we’re less than others, so we need to stop comparing ourselves. Stop comparing yourselves. The fastest way to erode your confidence is to try to be someone you’re not. And that’s often what happens when we compare ourselves and assume that that’s the person we need to be like.

So to build your own confidence, create a great list. Write down all of your accomplishments or noteworthy achievements that you are proud of. And use that when you might not be feeling great, or you might feel discouraged, to remind yourself of how great you actually are. And, of course, check in with that inner critic. The inner critic always has a way of telling us that we’re not smart enough and not good enough. And here’s the thing about our thoughts. We always get to choose them.

Where to Learn More

So this was our conversation today on how to develop leadership presence. And just remember this— people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. Thank you, until next time. And please check us out for our monthly webinars. Talk to us about bringing our webinars or leadership skills workshop to your team. We would love to come in and help to develop your leaders. Thank you so much for listening today. Bye-bye.

 

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Leading From the Jumpseat with Peter Docker

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with Peter Docker to talk all about his newest book, Leading from the Jumpseat: How to Create Extraordinary Opportunities by Handing Over Control. Peter is passionate about enabling people to unlock their natural talents. He teaches leadership that is focused on commitment and human connection. This approach harnesses the collective wisdom of teams to generate extraordinary outcomes. He illustrates his insights by drawing on examples from his previous industry, flying and military careers, to explain powerful concepts that can be applied in any business. Peter is a trained leadership consultant and executive coach, and he has also worked with Simon Sinek for over seven years and was one of the founding Igniters on Simon’s team. He took his years of practical experience to co-author Find Your Why: A Practical Guide for Discovering Purpose for You and Your Team with Simon and David Mead, published in September 2017. It has been translated into over 25 languages and has sold over 420,000 copies. Wow. Peter brings a tremendous amount of expertise, and I hope you enjoy our conversation as we talk about his newest book, Leading From The Jumpseat: How to Create Extraordinary Opportunities by Handing Over Control.

Full Transcript Below Meet Peter Docker, Speaker, Teacher, Author, Pilot, Veteran and More!

Jenn DeWall:   Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to welcome Peter Docker to the podcast. You heard a tremendous bio. Wow. Peter, you have had quite a career. And I just wanna start off by saying thank you so much for donating your time, your expertise and your passion for leadership with The Leadership Habit audience. We are so happy to have you,

Peter Docker:  Jenn. It’s a delight to be on your show. Thank you for having me.

Jenn DeWall:  Great. Peter, we’re gonna be talking about a lot of things today. I know we’re going to get into your book Leading From The Jumpseat, but before are we getting into your book? Which people, I mean, I know they wanna hear more. We heard that teaser in the bio. If you could just share how you came to be, what, what’s your journey like that led you to today being now the author— and I know this isn’t even your first book— being now the author of Leading From The Jumpseat. If you could just share with the audience your experience that led you to where you are today

Peter Docker:   Good heavens. Well, first of all, Jenn, I’m old. So, you know, it is quite a long story, I guess. <Laugh> but yeah, let’s start. When I joined the Royal Air Force in my early twenties, I joined the Royal Air Force as a pilot and an officer, and I spent 25 years in the Royal Air Force. I flew large aircraft jets and also fueling aircraft that carried gas to give away to fighter jets. And during my time, I led squadrons. I was a force commander leading people in combat during the 2003 Iraq war. I negotiated with the Russians when the Berlin wall came down on behalf of NATO. Good heavens, what else have I done? Oh, I’ve taught leadership at the defense college to the postgraduate level here in the UK. I’ve well, I’ve led $20 billion procurement programs.

And that took me to Washington to negotiate with your state department. So all sorts of wonderful things to the Royal Air Force. But then, after about 25 years, I thought there was more I could do. So, I left after, as I say, just 25 years, I joined a consultancy that had got nothing to do with flying all the military, but it had everything to do with people. And what we did, we worked, it was a consultancy. We worked in high-risk environments, such as oil and gas, and mining construction, where people typically got killed and injured. And what we helped them to do was create cultures and create a way of leading, which ensured that everyone went home safely at the end of each day. So that took me to the Middle East. It took me to Africa. It took place like Kazakhstan, but then after about three years, I thought there was more I could do.

So I left that job. And I started my own business, bringing together everything that I’d learned. And it was around about that time. I came across a fellow called Simon Sinek, and long story short there, he’s known pretty well for the books he’s written, but I spent eight years with Simon, helping him to take his message around the world. And in the process, I co-wrote the book Find Your Why with Simon Sinek and David Mead, which has done really rather well. But after about eight years, I thought that’s more I could do. So I left. That was another crossroads. And I sat down, I threw together everything I’ve learned through all the experiences I’ve had in my life. The privilege of that. Visiting 93 countries working with every industry you can imagine, and I’ve brought it all together, all in leadership lessons and put them in this book, Leading From the jumpseat: How to Create Extraordinary Opportunities by Handing Over Control. And yeah, I just wanted to bring together everything I’d learned and share it with other people so they can benefit from it too.

Jenn DeWall:  What do you think? And this is more of a personal probe because leadership lessons can be hard to learn. Sometimes it can be that we had to let someone down. Sometimes we might. It felt like we let ourselves down. What was one of the hardest leadership lessons that you learned?

What Difficult Leadership Lessons Have You Learned?

Peter Docker:  Hmm, that, that’s, that’s a really good question because I, I think leadership lessons can be very hard to learn, and we don’t always learn them because we don’t give ourselves permission to sit and reflect. And I’ve been lucky in that I’ve dedicated several years to sitting and reflecting, not only on my own leadership lessons, but what I’ve and mistakes, but what I’ve learned from, from others as well from the boardroom, you know? So that’s the first thing having the opportunity to reflect on. I think, is really important. I, I think one of the greatest things I’ve learned is it sounds very simple, but it’s actually very tough. And it’s around leading yourself because it life’s a journey you to learn how to lead yourself. And the more we invest in that the better able we are to lead others. And as part of leading yourself, I think one of the greatest lessons is to learn how to be yourself.

You know, that’s the simple thing many, many years ago when I was going through officer training for the Royal airs, I remember one of my trainers say, you know, be yourself as an officer, just be yourself. And at the time at the age of 2021 I didn’t really fully get it, you know, but it was much later on in my career where the penny really dropped. And I realized that, yeah, you’ve just gotta be yourself because while everybody else is taken, first of all, you know, <laugh>, but when you are, when you are yourself, it builds trust, it builds relationship. And whoever that person is when you’re being yourself, that is the greatest foundation on which to build your own leadership, whether it’s leading yourself or leading others.

What Does Leading From the Jumpseat Mean?

Jenn DeWall:  I gotcha. So those that are listening, even if you’re maybe not feeling confident, you’re looking to the left, looking to the right, trying to figure out who you should be. The answer is right inside. I love that learning how to be yourself, which is a challenging lesson because it’s easy to compare or think about. Am I getting it wrong? If I’m not doing what that person is doing and what that person is doing? Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that because I think we often don’t talk about the fact that we all struggle with that and that it is challenging, but I wanna get into your book because there are so many fantastic lessons, but first, why, why the title- Leading From The Jumpseat? Why, how, how did you come about picking that title?

Peter Docker:  It was inspired by a story, and there are lots of stories in this book, but every story has got a purpose to it. A point to it. This story goes back to when I was still in the Royal Air Force, I was a senior officer, and I was a senior pilot, and we were flying large passenger jets at the time. The thought that you might go on holiday on vacation in, you know, carrying about 140 people. And on this particular day, I was checking doing the final certification of this new captain. His name was, was Callum, and he’d been a first officer for many years, but he’d just gone through about six months of training to equip him to become the captain, the guy in charge of the whole aircraft and all the safety, all the passengers. And the final part of that training was for someone like myself to be part of his crew and monitor him as we flew from the UK to Washington Dulles and then onto San Fran.

And he did a great job. We landed in San Francisco, a very busy place. Landed in San Francisco, taxied it in, shut down, the passengers got off. And it was with great pleasure I could turn to him and say, Callum, great job. You’re fully certified. Now, as a captain, we’re stopping here the night, but tomorrow morning, we’ve got a full, full passenger load of people on the aircraft. I’ll be down the back with them. You’ll have a regular co-pilot you fly us back to Washington Dulles. And that was a great moment, as you can imagine because he really worked hard for this qualification certification.

Anyway, the following morning, I was just reading a magazine. He came up to me he said, excuse me, sir. And he’s called me, sir, because I was very senior and ranked to him. You know, it was that deferential, but nonetheless, he out to me, he said, look, it’s really busy here. Alice, San Fran, during rush hour, can you come and sit on the jumpseat to help watch out, make sure we go the right way and watch out for other aircraft as we taxi. So the runway, because we don’t go there very often. And I said, yes, of course. I thought at the time how courageous that was because he just got me off his back after six months. And this was his opportunity just to, you know, do his thing. But no, he was connected to the higher purpose, in this case, the safety of everybody on that aircraft. And so he wanted me to sit on the jumpseat to help lookout. And the jumpseat is the third seat on the flight deck of most large aircraft. It’s usually empty, but crew members can sit there. And when you sit there, you can touch the pilots on the shoulders. You’re that close. And you got a great view out the front of the aircraft. So that’s where he wanted me to sit.

So I strapped in, and we taxied out. He did a great job. He didn’t need me, but he, he did great. We lined up on the runway. We had clearance take-off. We thundered down the runway, and we’d only just climbed to about three or 400 feet. We’d just taken off. And we had an emergency. And Callum was wrestling with the controls, desperately trying to keep us away from the ground and what I chose to do in the next couple of seconds, which fundamentally affected whether I and everybody else, the 140 people on board, would survive or not. And this thing I did- absolutely nothing. I sat there with my hands in my lap, perfectly calm.

Because at that moment, I didn’t need to lead. At that moment I needed to become a great follower. I needed Callum to feel that I had his back to feel quite rightly that I had confidence in him to sort out that problem and look, what business would I have. I had the day before signing him up, as a fully certified captain, if I didn’t think he could handle any problem that came his way, I just needed to stay out of his way and let him do his job. And that’s what prompted the title Leading From The Jumpseat because, you know, we all hand over control at some stage in our life. You know, if we’re the CEO of a company, we will retire. If we’re leading a team, we’ll move on to another team. Heck as a parent, which by the way, is one of the toughest leadership challenges. Many of us will face. Even as a parent, our kids will eventually grow up, leave home and start to lead their own lives.

So handing over control is inevitable— jumpseat leadership. It’s all about embracing that. It’s all about focusing on lifting others up, not increasing or maintaining our own power, but empowering others, lifting them up and equipping them, such that when the time is right, they can take the lead and we take the step back. And it turns out that when we do that right here in the present, it creates the most extraordinary opportunities for our team and helps us to progress way quicker than we would otherwise. And it all came back to that story of taking off out of San Francisco.

Jenn DeWall:  That is a powerful, insane, so many words to describe that story that I probably can’t say, right? Like, holy cow, how’d you do that? What?! What, but the first piece, because I think at a high level, I, you know, I love that concept of Leading From The Jumpseat, but what, what about the times of life or death? What, how, how do you possibly hand over and, and that’s what more of a personal question? How are you able to practice that self-restraint? Because sometimes, you know, when we bring that back to the non-life or death situation that we might see at the corporate workplace, you might see leaders jumping in and saying, no, no, no, I’ve got that. There might be a difficult email from a customer, and they just still jump in, and they, you know, they really struggle with even, I would say non-life or death situation. So how were you able to do, how are you able to just actually do that? Because that’s wow. Because I would be like, Nope, this is my life. Like, you know, just like a lot of people are probably like, this is my job. This is my blank, all of the reasons of why you should have jumped in, yet you still took a pause.

Peter Docker:  Yeah. And you, you bring a, a great point out, Jenn, you know, most of us and most people listening are probably not gonna be in the situation I’ve just described. However, if they’re running a team, if they have their own business, let’s say they founded a business 10 years ago and they put their life and soul into that business, and they’re expanding and they know that they need to delegate and allow others to take the lead. It is just as scary when we’re handing over control. But unless we do hand over control, it’s the, it would be the same as just having one pilot. You know, you can only fly from A, to B, what we need are lots of pilots who can fly in the way that we would wish. So, you know, it is something that we face. The circumstances might be different, but they’re nonetheless very real.

And I think some of the insights for the answer to your question comes back to that story, which is how did I get to be invited onto that jumpseat? Just think about that for a moment, because the relationship, the context had to be very, very special for someone in call’s position to invite me his senior, senior boss, who’s got way more experience than he has to invite me to sit on that jumpseat. When the easiest thing would’ve been to have kept me down the back with the other passengers. And I think when we start to dig into that, and this is what we, part of what we unpack in the book, it gives us insight into the sort of leader that we need to be to create those conditions for our people, where we feel, where they feel comfortable, inviting yourself to the jumpseat or whatever the equivalent is, you know?

Leaders Need to Know Their Non-Negotiables

Peter Docker:  And in order to get there, it comes actually back to your earlier questions, you know, something I’ve learned about leadership, the most important it’s about being yourself. It’s about being comfortable with who you are. It’s about being very clear on what your non-negotiables are. And I describe how to identify your non-negotiables non-negotiables are deeper than values. You know, values change. I’m sorry, but they do. You might think you’re a courteous person. Yeah. But Hey, if you are late for a business meeting and as you drive up to the parking lot, there’s just one more space. You’ll dive into that space. Even though at the corner of your eye, you’ll see someone else who’s been hunting around for the space. Yeah. Now you might feel bad about it afterward, but Hey, you’re not gonna be late for that meeting. So what happens to your value of being courteous?

Hmm it’s circumstance-based, context-based your non-negotiables are much deeper. These are the things that are unshakable in you and describe how to identify these. But these then give us the, the handrail, the guide when we’re stepping into the unknown and they help us in situations of well, crisis, as well. So just like being on that jump, you know, you ask, how did I get there? Well, it’s all about being able to recognize what triggers fear inside of us and how to better respond to it rather than to react to it, which is what normally we would do.

Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, what triggers fear in me! Depending on the day, it can be a variety of things, but I love that because I think leadership there is whether you’re a new leader, whether you are new to an organization, whether you’re an existing or tenured leader, that’s making a new decision that may or may not be favorable. There’s fear. I think that’s the one, one universal that we can relate with is that we all are afraid of something, of letting someone down, or fear of doing the wrong thing.

Peter Docker:  So fear is triggered by one of four things. OK? The first fear is triggered by when we sense that our life is on the line, and this is deeply ingrained. It’s part of our DNA. You know, it has us jump back when there’s an oncoming car that we didn’t see until the last minute. And it saves our life. So fear in those circumstances is good but general on a day-to-day basis. Thankfully, our life is not under threat, but fear then is still triggered by three other things. It’s triggered when we sense that our livelihood, our status or our reputation is under threat. And when fear is triggered because our status, reputation or livelihood is under threat, it generates a very different reaction, which is generally not helpful at all.

It generates a situation where we close down, and we start seeing the world’s a place of scarcity rather than a place of opportunity. We start seeing it as a binary win, lose, and we gotta win at all costs. Instead of thinking of others, we start thinking of ourselves. That becomes our focus. We might become angry or the other extreme. We might become timid. None of these things are useful when we’re leading ourselves or others. And the biggest thing that comes out is ego. Ego is Greek for eye. And we’ve all seen it when we’ve seen others lead by ego. We know when we are led by ego, and it generally does not turn out well, we start making decisions, which end up hurting others, but here’s the good use. We always have a choice. We always have a choice. OK. And that is to see fear as a warning flag rather than react to fear. See it as a prompt to be driven instead by love. Now, when I start talking about love of the business context, people get a little bit twitchy, and that’s OK.

Let’s just let go and embrace it. This is not about running around and hugging trees. You know, <laugh>, I’m talking about love as it shows up in business where we think about others. We think about our team. We think about the customers we serve instead of seeing the world as a play to scarcity. We see it as a place of opportunity and possibility. And instead of leading with ego, we lead with what I call humble confidence and humbled confidence. It’s all about, well, a confidence bit. First of all, it’s all about being absolutely clear on where we’re strong, resolute on where we’re going, absolutely resolute and ready to make decisions when they need to be taken. But importantly, we have the humility to listen to our team <affirmative> and whereas someone who’s being led by ego is determined to be the one with the answer, a leader who leads with humble confidence is focused instead on asking the important questions and becoming comfortable leading when they don’t know the answer. And that’s one of the main things in the book.

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Leading From the Jumpseat with Commitment, Humble Confidence and Belonging

Jenn DeWall:  You know, the book talks about three different themes about commitment, humility, confidence, belonging, and, you know, let’s unpack those at a greater level because I think it makes me also think, you know, going back to the conversation about ego is that fear that throws us into ego or our, are we, you know, what else is it that, you know, is it always fear? I don’t know if you know or can say it. I’m not expecting you to know the full answer to this, but from your lived experience, what do you see trigger people into or triggers people to go into a more of an ego response? Is it fear or is it other things? Is it like wanting other people to accept us, which I guess would also be fear? You know, is it always just fear?

Peter Docker:  Short answer. Yes. You know, and I, I say that from not from scientific study, I’m not a scientist. I say this from a practitioner’s point of view. You know, I’ve led people in combat; I’ve led big commercial projects. And you can tell when someone when their behavior shifts from being sourced from a place of love and possibility to a place of fear and scarcity, and ego is always generated by fear. I saw this in I was running a workshop some years ago, one of the biggest companies on the planet, and I had the room all of the directors from the board and ego was present in the room. It was. They were not doing well as a company. Their stock price had fallen through the floor, and they’d lost a lot of their reputation. And instead of coming to the table with humble confidence, they came in there with their egos, all trying to have a pop at one another to try and put the other down.

So as they could protect their own status, reputation and livelihoods, that was ego coming to the floor. You know, when I’ve flown within the military, I’ve led formations of many aircraft. What you don’t want in that formation is any pilot who’s got a big ego, you know. You don’t want that because they put themselves first instead of their wingmen first. Yes. And that’s when it falls down. That’s when people start to lose their lives. So, you know, when I talk about ego, when I talk about fear, when I talk about love. It comes from working with and observing companies. So in the business world, but also when people’s lives are on the line, you know, their life, their livelihood, their status and reputation, when it’s all on the line and ego can come out.

Jenn DeWall:  Gosh, I’m sure there are a lot of listeners right now that can already put themselves into that boardroom into that training where they feel like it’s not even a conversation so much as this as it’s a debate of egos. Or a debate of, Hey, let me show you how I’m good enough, or let me show you how my idea is the best idea. And what are the consequences to a team when you show up with ego? I know some of them are probably pretty straightforward, but from your experience, what do you see if you’re just pushing and you’re not leading with that humble confidence? What are the consequences that people will feel are the ripple effect of that through the team and organization?

The Danger of Leading With Ego

Peter Docker:  Well, first, it’s disengagement, but also, it tends to be infectious. Ego tends to be infectious. I, I think one of the most dramatic stories from my book that illustrates what happens when the ego is in the driver’s seat goes back to March 1977 on the island of Tenerife, off the west coast of Africa. And it was the scene of the most horrendous air accident the world has ever seen. Two jumbo jets fully packed jumbo jets collided in fog on the runway. One was crossing the runway, and the other was trying to take off. 583 people lost their lives that day. And the subsequent inquiry identified quite a few factors. One was the poor radio communications between the air traffic controller and the aircraft, the KLM jet taking off.

But one of the key factors was the ego of the captain of the KLM jet, he was captain by the name of Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten, and Jacob was one of them, the most highly respected, most experienced captains in that airline at the time. He trained other captains, he was literally the poster pilot on all the adverts for the airline. And when they lined up ready to take off, he pushed the throttles forward to start the take-off roll, thinking that they had clearance to take off. But they didn’t. And the other, the pilot and the flight engineer on, on the crew is what we call a cockpit gradient- he was so senior in comparison to their time on the in the airline and their rank that they felt they couldn’t question him. And the result was that 583 people died.

The good news, I should say, Jenn, out of this is that out of that accident, the good thing that happened was something called well cockpit management. It’s, it’s about how we respond to one another on the flight deck of an aircraft called crew resource management. And it gets rid of this, what we call gradient, where you’ve got a very senior person and a very junior person. It, it creates an environment where the most junior person feels able to speak up. It’s called crew resource management. And so that’s one good thing that came out of it. And every airline pilot has been taught that since the early 1980s. But yeah, this is at the extreme of what happens when ego comes to the fall. But in businesses and smaller teams, it can have just as a dramatic effect and that people take a step back, they disengage, they just let you get on with it cause you know, best. Yeah. And they’re not part of the solution to the challenges that you’re facing, and then you are on a downward slope.

Jenn DeWall:  Well, I’m curious, what would you say to someone that, you know, because I feel like there was this traditional leadership where ego was actually a very regarded skill or attribute of someone if they appeared confident or decisive and you know, maybe more direct or authoritarian that was more valued, but some of those things are much more into ego, but it’s understandable based on where your lived experience might be, but that you have come up learning that. What would you say to someone that says, well, I still get a lot of success with that, and why would I give it up now?

Peter Docker:  Um, Good luck.

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah.<laughter>

Peter Docker:  You know that’s fine. Ask your people how they feel about it. You know, here’s the thing with ego as well. It is not just poor practice in my view, it’s a limiting practice because what comes with ego is the belief that you’ve got to be the person with the answer.

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah.

Peter Docker:  And if you are the only person with the answer, you become the constriction in the pipe.

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah.

Peter Docker:  Your team can only progress as quickly as your knowledge allows. But look, let, let’s not be too hard on ourselves because this is again baked-in in terms of our development. When we’re at school, we are rewarded for knowing the answer. You know, we put our hand up, we know the, and we’re rewarded. We then focus on the subjects where we feel we know the answer and we’re inspired to find the answer. We then perhaps go to a college university. We further specialize. And then we leave, we enter the job market, and we are hired because we’re the person who knows the answers <laugh> yeah. And if we do really, really well, we’re then promoted. And eventually, we get promoted to the point where we are no longer the ones who are doing the work. We are leading the experts who are doing the work. And that is very unfamiliar territory. So what happens? Fear kicks in.

Because we’re outside of our comfort zone, and nobody has taught us how to manage this transition, where our job is no longer to be the expert. We are managing and leading the experts. And so what do we do? We revert to type. We revert to being well, no, I’ve got know the answers to this. When people come to us with a problem, if we know the answer, we tell ’em what to do. If we don’t know the answer, you say, leave it with me. Yeah. That’s a classic. I’ve done it myself. You know? And so people start to rely on waiting for you to tell ’em what to do. And you become the constriction in the pipe. The opportunity that is jumpseat leadership is learning how to be comfortable leading when we don’t know the answer and embracing that. Now, this doesn’t mean to say that we’re weak or timid, not a bit of it.

What it looks like in practice is look, I don’t know the answer to this challenge. Let me tell you the reason why we’ve got to figure it out. And I gotta support you on my team to give you everything you need. So can work with me to figure out the answer to this challenge that we’re facing right now. Are you with me? Yeah, much, much different environment to work in. And one where you’re lifting people up where people are showing up where they’re working harder because they want to not because they have to. Right. And that’s how you accelerate the progress of your team. So all the people out there who are leading with ego, as I say best luck to you, <laugh>, you’re probably advanced quicker. If you learned how to lead from the jumpseat and learn to lead with humble confidence.

Leading with Commitment

Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I love that. I mean, and I’ll the last thing that I would even just from what you’re saying too, and like, what I would add is when you actually give yourself permission to not know all the answers, think about how much you can protect your own mental health in the form of stress, anxiety, burnout, by being able to allow other people to be and offer a solution. But I know we are writing and running through this. I love our conversation, but let’s get into the other two themes. So you talk about three themes in the book. One is humble confidence. The next one is commitment. Why is an important theme?

Peter Docker:  Well, commitment. These three you’ve mentioned are commitments, humble confidence and belonging. They are three practices. And practice as a word’s important. It’s not about being perfect. We are not perfect as human beings. It’s about our intention and our trends. You know, that’s, what’s important to, to measure. And so we, we practice and we get better. Commitment is the first practice because commitment is all about figuring out what are your non-negotiables, what are those things that are unshakable? Now I’ll give you an example. Family, for many of us is something that’s a non-negotiable. You know, when I phone call about two and a half years ago for my wife, she told me she’d just been involved in a car accident. I dropped everything. I left the business calls. It was only two miles down the road. I was off nothing. Would’ve stopped me from going to her.

And many people listening can relate to that. But it’s the interesting thing, Jenn, the energy, that least inside of me think about it. I was stepping into the unknown. I didn’t know what I was gonna find, but there was nothing on this planet, which would’ve got in my way. Would’ve stopped me from going. So identifying your non-negotiables it’s about identifying those other things that have got a similar amount of energy inside of them, because together they create this foundation that can help you move forward. Even in the face of adversity, even in the face of uncertainty, they act as a handrail. I’ll tell you in the book, how to do that. It’s through the choices that we make in life. Those are the clues, but when we identify these non-negotiables, they become stands. What we stand for and we can turn those stands then into action and turn them into commitments.

What we’re committed to and this isn’t, you know, an airy-fairy thing. Commitment is a promise that we make to ourselves. Not actually anybody else to ourselves, you know, you and I could have a contract, we could sign it up and people say, oh, we’re committed now, but I can guarantee that if we wanted to get out of it, if we hadn’t made that promise to ourselves to follow through, we’d get out of it. OK. So commitment is a promise we make to ourselves to follow through. And so the first point book is helping people to understand those distinctions in language, to identify what their non-negotiables, what their stands are and how to use them to form commitments, to follow through. Because when we practice that, people start to build a relationship with us, it forms what we ultimately call character. It helps us to act consistently. And that helps us not only to lead our own lives well, but to lead others well, too. It’s the foundation as well of being able to have the courage to lead with humble confidence, you know? So that’s commitment, that’s humble confidence. Would you like to about that? Or should I dive into belonging?

Jenn DeWall:  Let’s do a little bit more on commitment. I’m curious. You talked about what it looks like. What does commitment look like at work? Because I think many of us could probably relate to the non-negotiable of family. What are examples of maybe non-negotiables that you see that might be successful in the workplace?

Peter Docker:  Sure. so <laugh>,let me give a story to illustrate this, because I think it’s easier to grab I went to university to study two subjects about which I knew nothing. OK. This was 18 years old electronic engineering, computing. I knew nothing. This was in 1981, good evidence it’s a long time ago. Right. But the reason I went to university to study those subjects was that I figured I’d be able to get a really well paid job at the end of it. And that was important. It was important because at the time both my parents had lost their jobs. Money was very, very short. Me going to university actually helped because at the time it was paid for by the government here in the UK. So it, it was, it was no cost to appearance. And I figured that it would reduce the burden on them and also I’d be in a position to help them afterwards.

So that formed a non-negotiable in me looking back, I said, it’s about the choices we make in life. And this was a key choice of mine. And the non-negotiable for that event was that with me is the notion of self-sufficiency. I don’t wanna be a burden on anyone else. I wanna be self-sufficient and I want to be able to be in a position to help others. So that’s one of my non-negotiables. Now halfway through my degree course, something else happened. Argentina invaded the Falkland islands down in the South Atlantic, the Falkland islands, tiny islands, which are a British territory. And the people there consider themselves to be British. But at the time Argentina invaded, they imposed their will on those people. Now I knew hardly anything about the politics, but I was incensed by the fact that someone was imposing their will on others who were unable to help themselves.

And so I left university mid-degree to join the Royal Air Force because I wanted to be part of a team that in future could help others in that sort of situation. Now what that pointed to that choice is something that is another non-negotiable, which is the notion of mutual respect. And if I see or sense anyone not mutually respecting– or mutual respect not occurring, that incenses me, that drives me forward. So how does that look in the business world? Well, those two things, those non-negotiables turn into sounds, which give me guidance, show me the way when I’m treading into uncertain territory, when I don’t know what to do, where there isn’t a roadmap, those and other non-negotiables help me to figure out what direction to, to head in and help me lead my team.

Jenn DeWall:  I love that. And it’s the foundation. I think if you’re a new leader, I love that you talk about finding you’re non-negotiable because I think whether you’re an existing leader or a new leader when you’re a new leader, this could be one of the first places that you can build your confidence within yourself. Absolutely. <laugh> understanding what are the things, how do you want to treat others? How do you want to be treated? What are the things that you’re not going to stand for? And you know, what are the things that you might be like, OK, like, I don’t love that, but I’m not going to also, you know, jump over if something like that happens, too. Because I imagine there’s also a place like, is there a, is there a magic number of non-negotiables that you think are helpful? Like, is it, is it three, is it five or is it just all about consistency?

Peter Docker:  It’s about consistency. It’s about where those non-negotiables have come from. And they, they come from those choices that we make in life, the big crossroads. But actually, here’s something right now that people can do. Think about a time where something has really triggered you and perhaps you felt like you were getting angry or annoyed in some way. Take a moment, pause and reflect on that. It’s probably because you feel strongly against something. OK.

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah.

Peter Docker:   Now take a moment to turn that coin over and recount in terms of what you feel strongly for. OK. So in the example of the reason I left university, you know, I, I was against what was being imposed on the the British population down the Falkland islands. When I turned that coin over what I found was my stand for mutual respect. OK. So this is something that’s we, we can, we can do right now, you know, beneath every complaint is a commitment for something. And it’s something I, that that’s a really helpful thing that one’s not in the book, but it’s really helpful. <Laugh> in a business, a team situation. If someone comes to you with a complaint, rather than trying to brush it under the carpet, sweep it away, ask questions to dig deeper and find what’s the underlying commitment. What’s really important to that person that they’ve had the courage to put their hand up, stand outta line and say, Hey, I’m complaining about this because when we can find that underlying commitment, instead of squashing the complaint, we can harness that energy that comes with it and work with the underlying commitments to achieve something remarkable.

Leading By Practicing Belonging

Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I love this. This is where we can envision success. What are we working towards? Where do we want to bring people a long? I love that. My gosh. And now we’ve got to go into the, the third practice– belonging, which I just love that this is a part of your book because belonging is so incredibly important to everyone yet. I think it’s often an overlooked area that people just kind of think like, does that really matter at work? I mean, they might know it on some level that it matters, but we don’t really look at it as a strategy because what? Like, they should be happy they have a job <laugh> but tell me what you mean by belonging.

Peter Docker:  Well, as human beings, we all want to belong. We do. Yeah. You know, even going back to school, you know, we, we wanna find a group where we belong and <laugh> actually my, my children now they’re, they’re both grown up, but my daughter, when she was in her teens, here is something that any parents out there can relate to. You know, how do you get your teenage daughter to put her dirty laundry in the basket? <Laugh> Yeah, am right. It, this is, it’s actually a leadership challenge. How to you get her to choose to put that laundry in the basket. Well, what’s behind this is well, you can gain some extra insight because the time when she will choose to put it in the basket is what if she’s going out the weekend with her group of friends and she wants to wear a particular outfit that needs washing. Heck, she’ll put it in the basket. She might even go and wash it herself. OK. So what’s that all about?

Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh>

Peter Docker:  Because she strives, she wants to nurture this sense of belonging. Yeah. When people feel they belong in this case of teenage daughters is to belong to their group of friends by expressing through the fashion that they’re wearing. You know, that identity, it’s such a powerful driving force and in just the same way as it works at a fashion level with teenage daughters, it actually works in the work environment too. And I give an example in the book of this working at scale with an incredible company called as Aesop, a British based company, they’ve got about four and a half thousand people, average age 27. And they in, on online fashion retail, that’s what they do. But the whole story is in there, but they nurture a sense of belonging because when people feel that they belong, they want to step up. They want to take responsibility.

They want to start to lead in exactly the same way as our teenage daughter starts to lead by choosing to put the washing in the laundry basket because they wanna be a part of the group that they wanna belong to. Yeah. So belonging is hugely important as leaders. We do well to nurture that sense of belonging and the way we nurture a sense of belonging is that we show that we care, not in empathy. Empathy is fine, but it’s not enough. Empathy is, yeah, I get it. I can see it from your point of view. No caring is showing well. It’s showing that we care at the human level and the way that we show that we care by giving people our time. And doesn’t need to be much time, you know, busy executives out there. I know your diary, your calendar is full, but you give your time.

One of my most challenging leadership roles was leading 200 people during the Iraq war. And outwards as the, we were there four and a half months, and we flew large unarmed undefended aircraft. We got shot at quite a lot, and that was quite irritating, but you know, I had 200 people that I needed to care for. And what that looked like was, well, sometimes I’d sit down with a coffee on the floor, back against the wall with while the most junior people in my team, chatting with them, you know, how’s things at home, everything all right? I, I hear you had a new baby recently. You know, how are they doing? I remember during our time I had three people whose grandparents were dying, and we moved heaven on earth to get them back in time. You know, that’s just something that we did. Now you don’t need to make a song and dance about it. And we didn’t. But when people instinctively sense that you care, they are willing to contribute more. And so if your aim is to progress more quickly and further with your team, you need to care. You need to nurture a sense of belonging.

Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. And that’s, I just think of so many different examples. And I am seeing more company is practice this even in interviews. I had an organization that I recently am working with them now to facilitate. And one of the first things that they had said to me is we just want you to be you. We want you to be you, your unique self. We don’t want you to watch our current facilitators and try to be like them. We want you to be you because we know that you provide an individual perspective that makes the total unique. And that will probably stick with me for the rest of my life, because I have never up until that moment, two months ago, three months ago, actually a little bit longer than that, ever had an employer, actually bring that up in an interview process.

And to now see it as I’m in that company, to see how true that is. Yes, you’re absolutely right. And makes me work that much harder. I just went through two and a half weeks of tech challenges, things that I could have just said, oh, I don’t know. Maybe you guys could figure this out, or you do this. But I called every single person on my end, my provider, I upgraded my, you know, I did so much all because they believed in me and they created the right place. But if they didn’t maybe have that approach, I’m not sure I would’ve invested in 20 hours of my tech challenges, investing in a new computer, buying a modem, all that stuff, because it wouldn’t have felt like my contributions or even why that would matter because I’m like, oh, they probably are fine anyways. Like we can do the work-around, but because they cared, I wanted it work the way that they want it to.

Peter Docker:  Well, and, and here’s the thing, you know, what is it that you’re doing when you are, you’re spending some time with people. It can be a fleeting moment. And the more senior you are in a company, by the way, the more meaningful it is. Yeah. Those few moments, because people know instinctively how busy you are. But in those few moments, what are you doing? You’re lifting people up. And that goes to the heart of jumpseat leadership because when you lift people up, they then start to choose to leave and take responsibility. And that’s when, when people choose to do things, it’s so much more powerful than when we rely on telling people to do things.

Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Peter, thank you so much for all of your insights today. I even love that- empowering people to choose. Empowering people to take that responsibility. Leading From The Jumpseat: How to Create Extraordinary Opportunities by Handing Over Control. Peter, how can people get in touch with you? Where can they purchase your book?

Where to Find More From Peter Docker

Peter Docker:  Well, my website is LeadingFromTheJumpseat.com and there’s lots of videos and resources on there. The book is available, paperback, hardcover, audiobook, e-book, in all the usual places, including Amazon and bookstore.org. And you can find me on social media, on LinkedIn.com/in/PeterDocker and Twitter, @PeterDocker, and Instagram. I’ve had to go at TikTok, but you know, Jenna, I don’t think I’m quite up to speed on TikTok yet. <Laugh>, you know what, let let’s stick to to what we know for, for the time being. But yeah, so you can find me,

Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, Peter, thank you so much for just again, your time, your expertise, your passion. And I love that. I’m so excited- Leading From The Jumpseat. Pick it up now. Thank you again, Peter. It was so great to have you on the show.

Peter Docker:  Thanks for having me, Jenn. It’s been great.

Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Peter Docker. And if you want to know more, if you want to get your copy of his book, you can head on over to LeadingFromTheJumpseat.com. Now, if you know someone that could benefit from hearing Peter’s message— as I feel like everyone could— don’t forget to share this episode with them and of course, if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. Until next time.

 

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The Future of Work is Empathy with Work Innovation Specialist Sophie Wade

In this week’s episode at The Leadership Habit, we are talking with Sophie Wade about what’s next now that the future of work has arrived. Sophie Wade is a work futurist, an international keynote speaker and a Workforce Innovation Specialist at Future of Work Consultancy at Flexcel Network. Over 475,000 people have taken her LinkedIn courses on empathy and the future of work skills. Sophie’s executive advisory work and transformative workshops help leaders understand and adapt to new business conditions and attract, engage, and retain a productive multi-generational distributed workforce. Sophie got her BA at Oxford University and MBA at International Business School INSEAD. Sophie’s second book, Empathy Works, The Key to a Competitive Advantage in the New Era of Work, comes out May 3rd! Tune into this conversation as Sophie and Jenn talk about what’s next now that the future of work has arrived.

Full Transcript Below

Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to be sitting down with Sophie Wade today to talk about what’s next. Now that the future of work has arrived. Sophie, you heard her incredible bio! Sophie, how did you become a workplace innovator? Tell me about your journey and how you came to be. I’m so excited to be talking about your book today, but let’s hear a little bit about you your experience within this work or anything that you wanna share.

Meet Author of Empathy Works, Sophie Wade

Sophie Wade:  So, well, I think, you know, my journey is actually kind of interesting and sort of important because I grew up in England. I am British and American now, but I’ve lived I actually studied Chinese and then having done science and, and have lived around the world and I’ve lived in five different, I and worked in five different countries, which really gave me a different perspective that, you know, work is different in every country and how people work and when they start and stop work and the attitudes they have towards it.

So that really helped me sort of understand that there, there is no set way of working. There are sort of different rules in every place. And then my sort of first career, all about strategic development. I build a lot of financial models and help people raise money. But then I have two kids and when my, my daughter became three years old and, and they were sort of both complaining that they never saw me, I then started looking for workplace flexibility and sort of looked into it, did some research having got a job that was three days a week, cause it’s like, there must be many more people who want to work or have more flexibility in their work. And so I actually started working for a friend three days a week doing executive search for hedge funds, which was fascinating. But I really started looking into this aspect of workplace flexibility and this was 2011, so this was 12 years ago. And and so I decided that I had the, was going to try, you know, maybe spend a year, year and a half trying to get myself the kind of flexible job that was going to allow me to have better work life balance the, you know, very sort of old term now but, or set up company that was going to sort of work, sort of work on that.

The Future of Work and Workplace Flexibility

Sophie Wade:   And that’s what I did instead. I set up a company. And so I’ve really been in this space advocating for trying to, you know, connect people, trying to, you know, do consulting workshops. And then, around 2014, I came across the term, the future of work, of which workplace flexibility is a big chunk of it. And I realized that that was a, there was alot that was involved, and that was going to be very challenging for companies to adjust to because really driven by technology. So that’s how I really got into this and, and, and really looking at how leadership has changed, a lot of challenges between generations in terms of communications and miscommunications and Jenn, that is something that you are, we’ve had some great conversations so that was something.

And then the last piece of it was through three pillars, and the third one was the decentralized workforce, which was increasing then of course, you know, we know a lot more about that since the pandemic started, but, but that was, that was sort of where it came from. And really, the sort of the human-centric counterbalance to this technology-driven world that we’re dealing with. So that’s how I sort of got there because the talent aspect of it, how people are working, has changed a lot with all the technology. Now that’s integrated into our work.

Jenn DeWall:   So when you, oh my gosh, like so many questions, right? Like one question, what’s the biggest difference that you notice between the five countries that you’ve worked in terms of the attitude towards work, anything stand out or any, you know, any A-ha’s or interesting, I guess, observations that you’ve made?

Work/Life Balance Around the Globe

Sophie Wade:   One of the big changes I mean, I, so I lived in Germany. I lived in worked in Germany for two years and most people got to work nine o’clock on the dot and left at five o’clock on the dot and worked very hard during that time. But I was actually in, it was one of the first sort of online businesses, digital business and the technology people, the technologists were the only people really that I knew. And I knew a lot of them in the company who would be working over the weekend, who’d be working past five o’clock. So that was really interesting having been working before that, or recently before that in Hong Kong, where for the, you know, around five years that on and off that I worked in Hong Kong, I worked not only long hours, every weekday, but I worked two out of three Saturday mornings from nine till one, every single weekend. Like that’s just how the work was set up. And it, it was a while ago. I don’t know that they do that now. So going from sort of working five and a half days a week to, to, and long hours to a much shorter you know, schedule, I mean, I was working past five o’clock.

So that, that sort of showed me immediately the range. And then, and, and also, you know, Europe had say, what I would say is a more balanced view of work. That work is important but it has its place and it is it, you know, there there’s non-work, and I wouldn’t sort of say life because these things were all, all integrated and should be in my opinion. But they have, it’s a more balanced, and it isn’t assumed that your work in the evening, it isn’t assume that you would work over the weekend. And so coming here to the us and I’ve always been engaged in, you know, digital media and lots of things. I was doing venture capital and I work very long hours and I always love my work, but it has a, there’s a very different work culture here compared to Europe. And that was, that was, there was a strong contrast from, from living in Germany to working here.

Jenn DeWall:   Gosh, I love the perspective of even just bringing it back to our listeners that no matter where you sit, you likely have a different culture than the next. And it’s always important to remember that because when someone’s coming into your organization and you’re onboarding them, they are carrying with the norms of that past industry. And it’s really important to have those conversations with them to let them know what is it like here? What does work look like you? And I talked about it on the pre-fall even perception versus reality. How are you judging people in your workplace? How are you evaluating them and determining whether they’re a fit or whether they’re ready for the next role, those expectations are often missed when someone joins the team?

Sophie Wade:  Huge. And, and, and, you know, I have talked about this in some of my speeches, which is about how people react and, you know, from a generational perspective, but it’s huge on the cultural perspective as well, in terms of, let’s just say hard work now, hard work for older generations typically means working long hours late at night, you know, grueling, probably grueling, boring work. And that’s kind of how it was. And it goes back to the Protestant Calvinist doctrines, which is like, you know, you will go to heaven if you suffer in your work. I mean, you know, it’s kind of, that’s where it came from. But now, you know, younger generations, if you’re you using really, you know, good tools and, you know, project management apps and, you know, slack and all the rest of it, you can be working very hard in 40 hours, get all your work done, achieve the same results and that’s hard work. how different you could be evaluated by someone older, it’s like, well, you know, yes, you know, she gets stuff done, but you know, she’s not working hard because, you know, she leave work at six o’clock or something like, right. That’s where you get serious repercussions from people who come at things with very different attitudes and understandings based on, based on their history. It’s not, there’s no critique. It’s just, we have different backgrounds and interpretations and experiences. And that really we have to be careful how we evaluate other people and how we judge other people based on, on sort of our own context.

The Future of Work is Technology-Driven

Jenn DeWall: My gosh, I love that response. And I hope that there are a lot of aha moments that were triggered by that. So let’s move into our conversation. What is next? Now that the future of work has arrived. I know that you had talked about it, you know, at a high level. And could you just say, what are the components again, or how do you define the future of work? Just a level set before we progress again?

Sophie Wade: Huge. Yes. So the future of work, there are many definitions out there. Absolutely. It is very hard to nail on one, but the way I look at it, it is really based on technology. It is a much faster, interconnected, technology-driven world, which is because it’s all interconnected. We have a faster feedback loop. We have a lot of new technologies coming in, which are, meaning customer behaviors are changing, and we’re having to respond to much faster work. Isn’t linear in the same way because of how we have to react. So work itself has evolved. There’s much more knowledge work. There’s much more non-routine work. So non-routine versus routine work non-routine work has grown enormously over the last few years.

Jenn DeWall: What do you mean by non-routine like special projects? What do you mean by non-routine?

The Project-Driven Economy

Sophie Wade: Well, anything that it, so we’ve had a lot of routines, you’re doing the same thing over and over again, predictable you project it out three to five years instead. Yes. Projects. So when we talk about non-routine work, then project work is a, is a huge portion of that. And in fact, the Harvard Business Review November-December 2021 issue said the project economy has arrived. They actually used Germany as an example that now 41% of their GDP was, was accounted for by projects and projects, because they’re not, they’re not linear, they’re not the same. They could be a bit different sizes and lengths and grouping together, different people. That’s a different way of working. And so that’s part of, so there’s a lot of things that have been changing about the speed and the nature of how we’re working and how predictable it is.

Because if we are integrating new technology at our company, and then we have, you know, consumers who are then reacting in different ways to how the, you know, what the product is like, or how, how we’re delivering our service, that’s gonna change the behavior, which then changes kind of how we need to operate. And then what technologies are competitors integrating. And what does that mean about how com how our customers reacting to our products? So we have to just keep innovating and, and I sort of use know the video call, like zoom you know, Microsoft teams over the last two years, how many times have we noticed or been alerted to, but, but notice, oh, there’s a new future here. Oh, oh, cool. And we don’t kinda go, oh, there’s a big software release. And, you know, so we’re really used to, so the future of work is really about constant innovation, constant change in a more, in a less volatile way than during the pandemic, but it is to do with a lot of change. And now there have been societal developments which have, you know, helped move that along. In terms of now you have typical, we have two people in a family working for economic reasons. You have, you know, a lot of single parents, you have, you know, a lot of single mothers who are the, the primary or soul you know, earner in a, in a family. And so you have a lot of different societal situations, which make it more challenging, which are increasing the need to have more flexible working options. But, technology is really the drive in terms of how it’s changing so much about how we do business, how fast the marketplace is developing and how we need to work as a result.

Is the Future of Work Everyone Coming Back to the Office?

Jenn DeWall: Okay. Again, so many thoughts were stimulated. I, you know, I, I really do love that, whether it’s thinking about because I know in our pre-call, we had also talked about the fact that, or maybe I think it was us talking about the fact that there were organizations that are now forcing people to go back to a fully in-person structure and they’re met with resistance. Right. Do you talk about flexibility? What do you see from where you sit?

Sophie Wade: From where I sit? I really look at that as being— it’s not gonna set up that business or institution that somebody was asking me a question on LinkedIn about, you know, their, their college reinforcing, reinstating, you know, old pre-pandemic rules. It’s not gonna allow entities to be competitive because when we’re talking about this technology-driven, fast-moving marketplace, when you’re needing to kind of like being able to pivot, not just, you know, you know, post-pandemic to be able to, to adapt to new marketplace developments, you need to, you need your company to be responsible. You need your employees to be responsive. It’s a mindset. It really is driven by a mindset. And if you want your people to be, to be flexible, they need to be in an environment that is flexible, and that includes their work arrangements. And so we also need employees to be engaged. We need them not just to be going through the motions and turning up, or, or staying at home and just doing, doing whatever. And just like, you know, checking the box at the end of the day, we do need people to be engaged because the problems are much more complicated, and we’re also working together much more closely. And, you know, we haven’t been used to that. Right. We’ve sort of come in our kind of like, yes, you know, showing up as, you know, of course, a two, two-dimensional person, and now I need to know who you are and be able to respond and you, and, and bring both help you bring your best self. And I bring my best self to tackle the problems of today.

Human-Centric Management in the Technology-Driven Workplace

Jenn DeWall: Okay. Now we have to go into it because I think seeing the whole person. And then, not the norm, right? Conditioned to come to work like, Oh, by the way, you leave your personal self behind. Deal with that on personal time we don’t see that, we don’t have time for that. And it’s interesting because I think it’s created confusion around younger generations that might want it, but then also are observing, and they’re like, well, maybe you don’t do that again. We’re just talking, we’re not labeling here if you’re listening to this, but, you know, because I think this can be a contentious topic, but talking about seeing the whole person, why do you think this is such a big piece of the future of work?

Sophie Wade: I think, well, for me, this human-centric counterbalance to the technology-driven environment that we’re in now that you know, who are the people who are actually using the technologies, which are now the tools. We’re not so focused on the technology instead of, you know, living inside the factories that we needed to produce enough food. I mean, that’s where it all came from. We really focused on, on, you know, increasing production. Now we’re a place where we have sophisticated tools that we can really use. And it is the human beings that we need. And we need to have people be doing their best work.

And if they’re gonna do that, they need to feel comfortable. They need to feel included and welcome. And so that’s where I come, you know, come from the empathy angle because empathy for me, I mean, it can be about being nice and being kind, but really empathy is about human understanding. And so when we’re thinking about like, who, if I want to engage you in my team, I, we need to, I need to understand who you are and you know, what your background is and okay, so you, you know, where do you live? And, and, and I don’t have to engage you sort of intimately, you know, in terms of like knowing, you know, confidential things about you or whatever you, whatever you are comfortable sharing. And that’s where we sort of need to understand, like, what are you comfortable sharing? What should I, or should I not share so that, but so that we have a relationship. So we have some shared understandings which helps us work together more closely, mostly particularly in the kind of more challenging dealing with the more challenging questions and issues and, and solving the problems, which are requiring us to come together.

You know, somebody from marketing, someone from business development, someone from finance, you know, all the different and technology, we all need to be, you know, working together, coming with very different and diverse mindsets and context and backgrounds. And that’s what we need to solve the problems of today. And we need to be able to bring, you know, everything that we can to the table and the other people around the table, be able to, to deal with that and accept that and embrace that. So inclusion and empathy, which are really about welcoming and understanding people and, and allowing people to be comfortable and understanding they are, are, are absolutely critical to be able to move forward and be, and be competitive. You know, in today’s environment.

The Future of Work Requires More Flexibility for Employees

Jenn DeWall: I love even saying that, because that example earlier talking about flexibility, whether let’s say, for example, you are a single parent and you, you know, if you don’t get to know the whole person, you don’t know what they’re walking out to, like the type of responsibilities, what that schedule looks like. And I think the individual wants that tailor now, right? That’s what we’re saying. They want flexibility.

Sophie Wade: And they just need that flexibility. There was one case I came across probably six or seven years ago and the flexibility that this woman needed at that point, she needed half an hour. She was a single parent. She had two kids, and the kids were, I think, like six and five and she needed to be able to get to work half an hour or later, so that she could put the two kids, six and five on the bus going to school. So you know, that’s all she needed and that was gonna make all the difference in the world to her because of her, her family situation.

Jenn DeWall: Yes. And what’s interesting though, like again, because we’re challenging the generational norms, we’re seeing a full person, I have absolutely sat and mediated a conversation between a manager and their employee and the manager. And maybe this is generational. Maybe this is just their lived experience, could not fathom that this employee was asking for accommodations as it related to their children. And I think it was like a doctor’s appointment that was going to be recurring and, you know, really pushing them well, if you want to make that appointment, you have to do it outside of work hours, which when are medical clinics open, you know, like when are they actually able to get care? But it was so interesting to again, and I think, well, that was in 2018. Just to see that level of, in my eyes where I sat it was, yeah, let’s just push it out just as you said, a half-hour, like, and this is, is already what the employee had proposed. It’s like, could I come in later and work later? And this manager was still saying no. And I think then it comes down to our own ego of like wanting to enforce this and being resistant to change, to seeing things in a different way.

Sophie Wade: Well, I mean, so yeah, a couple of things. One is absolutely weird. Human beings be, are creatures of habit. And that’s what we know. And I think, you know, that’s one of the reasons that, and also what we feel comfortable that we can control and sort of getting our arms around things. And so I think that’s one of the reasons where, why people do want to sort of go back to the, bringing people back to the office because it’s kind of like I can get my hands around it, but also, you know, I think one of the things, the big change that needs to happen, what’s very helpful when it happens is focused on results.

Because if that manager had the comfort that that person, you know, is, is beholden to the results. And they kinda like, well, you know, as long as you get your work done, you know, you get it done. And at the same time, you know how I mean, we do now understand we have much more data now to understand how distracted that worker, that that employee is. If they can’t get it done. And they’re focused, you know, instead of being able to get their work done and really engaged in their work, they’re keeping distracted by the fact, well, how am I gonna get this done? How am I gonna get my kid to the doctor? These are, these are the issues that we now understand that we, that are sort of distracting people and not allowing them to really get the job done.

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Empathy Works – The Key to Competitive Advantage in the New Era of Work

Jenn DeWall: I wanna jump in because we haven’t done the formal introduction, your newest book drops on May third. I believe that it’s called Empathy Works. What was your kind of perspective on creating that title or Empathy Works? I mean, yeah, Empathy Works, but what was your experience with wanting to name your book that.

Sophie Wade: Well, it had a lot of, so it’s Empathy Works- The Key to Competitive Advantage in the New Era of Work. So empathy, what I started off with a title about strategic empathy because it was trying to sort of say, well, this is not, and empathy is not just a skill. It’s a cultural value. It’s a mindset, and it’s a skill I was trying to understand to, to sort of getting the point like how to, to communicate that it really is a, is strategic to enable companies to enable employers to, to really make a difference particularly. I mean, really, especially now we’re dealing with much more challenging over, so really trying to come up with something and came up, you know, the sort of play on words when I just suddenly came up, I was like, Hmm, that really resonates. Cause you know, you, you play around with titles, and I was strategic empathy being like, oh yeah, it’s fine. Or whatever, but it didn’t, it, it, but Empathy Works really seemed to just sort of nail it. It was, it, it, it like, and it does, it really does.

Jenn DeWall: Absolutely. Well, even I think about empathy just goes back to seeing the whole person. So what message is the message of Empathy Works? Let’s talk about the messages that are within the book. What is its framework of it? Tell me more about your book and how your book is written.

The Future of Work is Empathy

Sophie Wade: So, thank you. The aim of the book, it’s not just to say, well, this, you know, human understanding and, and, you know, if we can tap into, you know, our people, that’s, that’s it, because we do have this new era of work, the future of work is, is really different. And I wanted to, to present a sort of framework that will help people really understand a way to move forward, not, not just as kind of like a skill that you can practice. Although there are lots of empathy habits, which I clearly layout in a very practical way. Like these are the things, the empathy habits you can practice as a leader, as a salesperson. But starting off with a framework, sort of understanding where we are, why we are here, you know, technology and all the rest of it.

And what technology has done really allowed us to focus on rather than like a TV blasting out to millions and millions of viewers with a very sort of generic message. We now can actually focus and target to customers on a one-on-one basis. We can actually recognize them in the street and go, oh, that’s one of my customers. And we sort of have a sense of who they are. We empathize with them. So now, you know, lot of stuff that I have a LinkedIn course, which is, which has got, is called Empathy for Sales Professionals, which has been doing really, really well, because we need to understand and tap into and, you know, understand what the pain points of our customers are. So that’s the, that’s the first piece. And then we sort of look at the customer journey and all different elements of that customer journey. Sophie Wade: And so I sort of have this yin yang symbol and there’s the customer journey. And then there’s the employee journey. Well, if we have all these people within our organizations who are trying to get to, to empathize with customers and trying to understand whether they’re, you know, delivering the technology solution, whether they’re talking to ’em in the sales, or when you are, you know, wherever you are in the organization, all the different elements need to be coordinated and focused on understanding that particular customer. So they also need to be able to empathize, not with a customer, but with each other because it, this needs to be consistent. So the employee journey. What is the employee journey for each person from when they first are attracted to the organization and how they sort of get promoted all the milestones along the way? And now as they leave at some point, because, you know, not every organization is big and had, you know, diverse enough to be able to keep people, but you may want them to come back again in the future and also spread the word, about what a great organization you are. So have them as ambassadors. So there’s no more, there’s no sort of like when somebody’s left the organization near we burn the bridges.

Jenn DeWall: There is, I, I say that because I, I still observe that. And I, I do think it’s, it’s bananas because I’ve watched employees that have been there for multiple years, great attitudes, great contributions, and right, because of a variety of reasons, it could be size, scope, career opportunities, development, the employee has chosen to move to a different thing. And then I watch the ego of leaders taking it. Maybe it’s incredibly personal, maybe whatever that is, but then you burn that bridge. And what do you think that employee’s gonna do? It’s like a slap in the face of all of the contributions. Like

Sophie Wade: It doesn’t even make business sense, to have someone who leaves, if you have them as an ambassador of saying, oh my God, that company was so amazing, right? Recommending in a tight labor market. You don’t want people to anybody to be a bad out in your company or feel disconnected that we are in a, this, you know, we have a much more network fabric type of economy now, and they can be recommended. They can be introducing people or, you know, being, being a, you know, in sort of marketing, you know, your company. And they may come back. I mean, I have recommended in the past for people, if there are like warrants or options that you give employees, you can put them on hold, they can go and get valuable experiences somewhere else, and then come back and then reengage with that sort of, you know you know, employee optional, you know, warrants programs so that you actually encourage them to come back once they have more experiences. So I think that there’s, there’s a lot that can be done to have that, not be a sort of, you know, linear journey in and out of the organization at some point, because we know these 30-year careers are not there anymore, but it be sort of much more circular and, and networked, and people might have been an employee at one point, then they might be a part-time employee. They might later in the future become a sort of expert consultant. Because you know, that they know about this particular marketplace or we tried something there. And, you know, so there are lots of different arrangements that you can have, which with employees currently and in the future that aren’t necessarily full-time or, or part-time employees. So that’s the framework. It’s really the customer journey and then the employee journey. So that gives a framework, for the whole book.

But really look looking at what I call the human-centric system. So it’s really then thinking about empathy, empathy in terms of, you know, integrating some remote, working some workplace flexibility, flexibility for people who may be fixed site. Cause there are a lot of employees still who, who don’t have any option. They have to be working on-site wherever that may be. And so remote working is gonna be a possibility for them, but they can still have flexibility. But, but with thinking about everybody’s situation and how to get to, bring the best help everybody do their best work. So that’s, that’s what it’s about. So it’s very, it’s practical. It sort of gives you the sort of the, it sets the stage gives a framework. And then as I said, it, it shows how empathy can be practiced, bringing it into the culture, integrating into the culture, elevating it as a cultural value, helping change the mindset. Because the mindset is really key in order to make workplace flexibility work. For example, it really is about focusing on each person as an individual. And, and then how you can practice empathy in all aspects of, of, of your work, teamwork, leadership and, and really, you know, a lot to do with inclusion as well. Empathy and inclusion are, are very closely connected.

Embracing the New Rules

Jenn DeWall: Absolutely well, and I think it’s important, you know, as, as the leaders are listening to this right now, thinking, examining, being curious with yourself, what are the beliefs or let’s call them old rules, traditional rules that may not serve today’s working environment. And what do you need to relearn or adjust to be able to accommodate that? Because yes, you said it’s a tight labor market. If you don’t accommodate it. Yeah. Someone else will. And it’s as I hate to be as direct and blunt as that, but for the most part, yes. And I think we talked about this in a pre-call, the companies that are, you know, really addressing, like seeing the whole person, making sure that they’re making certain accommodations, even changing the expectation of how a leader shows up. I feel like a leader shows up, I feel like the accountability of a leader is that much different. You can’t just show up as the office bully or the office jerk and be that authoritative person because you will have turnover underneath you. And then the buck will ultimately like, you know, that spotlight will shine on you and it’s again, don’t judge yourself for maybe embracing those things today, be curious with yourself about, okay, what can I let go and know that it’s just a new muscle that you’re building. It’s just a new muscle, but I have a question as it relates to I forget what you had said, which I loved, but I kind of equate it to the gig economy, right. The project or the project worker. And because that is a big piece. If I look at even myself as an individual, you know, I work, you know, quarter-time sometimes for Crestcom, part-time Crestcom, but then I have my own business, but then I consult and then I work for a different organization. I have five different email addresses. Right, right. And so when you’re really thinking about culture and the need for the individual to see the whole person to understand the scope because it also impacts, you know, even if I think about being a gig worker, cuz that’s kind of how I, I guess I would classify myself to some extent it’s that, you know, they have to see what else is on my plate because you can’t just drop in and say, I want you to do this now because I said so, and I forgot to drop no, actually like you have to be more mindful of what I have and I want to help you achieve your success. But it’s not the same like quick feedback loop when you’re talking to people that have different priorities. I dunno.

But, and so my question with that, that being said, understanding that the gig economy is there and that empathy needs to happen. How do you preserve your culture in the face of a gig or project-based economy, because then you’re that individual is caught between cultures? Like how do you actually preserve that, from your perspective, I know we didn’t plan to talk about this, but it’s just more of a curiosity.

Sophie Wade: Sure. There are so many things that you, you talked about there. So I do want to say that a key thing about how I see leadership changing and I will say, I’m sorry about it being so dark, it was very, very bright, here in New York, but it suddenly got dark so I’m sort of in the shade.

Jenn DeWall: Hey! We understand tech challenges. Now I know I do. Every single person needs to understand when I set my lighting, the sun was shining, but I don’t need to stop and change my lighting!

Work Culture in the New Era

Sophie Wade: So, so thank you. So first of all, leadership has had to change enormously. And I actually, in my first book, I talk about going that leadership is going from ego to empathy. And, or, or you can sort of look at it as being the, for being from the person to the organization. And so, so you have this culture, which really is the culture and it isn’t driven by the leader, the leader sets, you know, helps set it, but it is a culture of the, of a company, something which is very much involved, everybody’s involved, and everybody loves it and every day but it, it really has changed how leaders need to interact with people and understanding all the different things that they’re dealing with. And so on a cultural basis, you know, these are, these are what connect they and us, they can be very strong for each individual organization when it comes to the project economy or the 1099 economy, I do, I personally differentiate between the gig economy, which tends to be in my mind, it’s sort of easier to differentiate between gigs, which are, tend to be very, very short term, lots and lots and lots of projects like Handy or TaskRabbit, something like that versus the 1099 economy where you have, you know, long, long term, but you know, maybe two days a week with one company one day a week, so that those are longer-term project or independent contracting relationships.

And that changes because you have those certainly the research in past was showing that TaskRabbits and Handy and those type of gigs were supplemental income for the most part, not the main income. So 1099, when I’m looking at the 1099 income, that becomes important in terms of how it’s being supported and, and how much, how many more people are choosing a range of work arrangements, including which may be, you know, a part-time employment. And then, and then more project work on the site. So what I would probably say in terms of culture, connecting it is that you likely work for, for many of these, these companies that you’re working for have similar cultural characteristics, because you would not be working probably I’m guessing we don’t know each other very well, but I’m guessing you’d be choosing companies that have the kind of mindset or the kind of, or the same, the kind of vision that you, that aligns with your vision and the, and the kind of cultural values that you have. So you’re not, you’re not having to massively change the type of culture like, oh, this is a real sort of toxic culture versus this is, you know, that, or, or maybe you, you know, maybe you can deal with the toxic boss in, in, on one company, but, but overall the vision and the mission are similar so that it isn’t, it isn’t discord.

You’re not having completely, you know, kind of like put on a completely different hat because we’re trying to be who we are every day and that that’s going to, if it isn’t consistent or congruent with the, the sort of environment and the, that we’re working in, or, or the people that we’re working with that becomes more challenging these days. And that’s why, you know, a lot of younger folks certainly are leaning into and asking about the cultural values before they go and work somewhere.

Jenn DeWall: Interesting that you say that because I will not take, and maybe I am more of a project worker like 1099. I’m like, I’ve never gotten so many 1099s in my life before, like, as I was doing my taxes this year, because it is like, I will not do business now that I have a choice as an entrepreneur. I won’t do business with a culture that I think is, you know, just not a fit for me. I just won’t, I don’t I’ll find something else. I trust that I find some I’ll find something else or I’ll figure out how to offset, subsidize my income if I need to, but I will not compromise my values.

Sophie Wade: And then on the other side that somebody who’s hiring you, they’re gonna want to have, you know, so we talked about cultural fit and the cultural fit, you know, can mean when it’s not a practiced what I would say correctly, cultural fit for me means that you are aligning values. It’s not about having people that look and sound the same or have the same education, you know, because there are certainly, it’s about having a lot of diverse people, but who have, who are aligned with their values because rather than being something that can, can be discriminatory. So, but it means that if I’m hiring you and I’m making sure that we, that, that we’re, it’s a cultural fit so that you are going to enjoy working in my company and you are gonna feel included and welcomed and comfortable and be able to contribute. And all the rest of it, that means that you, that we can feel connected on those values, even if I’m, you know, you’re not with and, you know, working with, with, with teams in, in the company, you know, five days a week. And, and so that’s, I think how you can, you can be working across different companies and different work arrangements because those values are profound to who, to who you are and to who, you know, you know, I am in my company, that’s hiring you. And that’s the way to connect us and have that sense of belonging, even if you’re not there five days a week.

Jenn DeWall: No. And I love that you talk about the values because I can think about organizations where, you know, earlier in my career, you get your employee handbook. These are our five values, right? Honesty, trust, or whatever the heck they’re all about respect, right? They’re all the same at every company. It feels like sometimes. And then you come into the company and you’re like, oh, but these values are really just part of the employee handbook. We actually don’t hold people accountable to this. Right. It becomes funnier. It should be like, what are values now? And so it’s interesting to feel like there were these, like, I don’t wanna call it a of values because I do know there were plenty of people that absolutely adhered to them, but there were also people that were not held accountable to adhere to them. Mm. But now you have this thing of like, you can loosely as an organization, talk about your values, but I will enforce the values. Like I will make sure that I am standing confidently in that right place. So like, if you don’t actually adhere to your values, I will walk. And I think there’s a lot of people that will do that now from my generation.

Sophie Wade: Oh, absolutely!

Jenn DeWall: I’m not gonna just sit there if you’re gonna pretend and like smoke mirrors, make it look so cool. And it’s not by, like, why would I waste my time. Sophie Wade: My thing is if I don’t, if I don’t trust you as a company, right? This is, this is why the whole, the whole leadership dynamic has changed. And it’s going away from this command. I sort know, going from commanded coach. And I talk about this a lot in my book, because in that relationship, trust is so critical and trust and empathy and under in someone, because if you don’t trust me, there is no, I am so aware of the, or certainly the younger generation is so aware of the lack of job security in this country. It has been there for a long time, but it, we, I, I think, you know, I was certainly sort of delusion that, you know, there was more job security, but really when you are at-will, you are at-will. And, and, you know, you can be fired for, for any reason almost or just be let go because things have changed and these things are pivoting and, you know, goodness knows what, but if, if I believe the company values are integrity and trust and empathy or transparency, then I think it will least the company that I’m working for is going to give me a heads up, is gonna be open and clear with me so that even if things are changing, that they’re actually going to help me, you know, maybe find a new position or job and upskill, so that I, at least I can be looking for another job either inside the organization, there are companies that help people find jobs.

Sophie Wade: I mean, seriously. I mean, obviously the, as outplacement, but really engage in trying to help someone find a job because things are changing. So if I think this company is going to help me in my career, I’m going to stay there and I’m going to that. Loyalty’s gonna come from the connection on the values when there isn’t any, any legal reason that, that sort of, that loyalty, the relationships and the sense of trust that, that are going to keep, keep people there. And the, you know, the feeling that, you know, this company’s investing in me they’re gonna keep me competitively challenged and, and developing me. And I actually was just talking to a friend of mine from business school, who his company just one, the company most likely to help me grow in my career. And that was a new, it’s a new category. And I was like, oh, that’s so awesome. Because what it means is that those employees are saying that company is going to help me stay competitive. And, and they were as well as obviously contributing the bit to the business, because if, if, if the employees are growing and developing, they’re obviously going to be, you know, investing in the business as well. So I thought that was a really interesting new category and was very exciting.

Jenn DeWall: That’s so true. Like in the work that I do with Crestcom, gosh, Crestcom has been one of the best organizations at showing like support and value and feeling seen. It was just almost startling. At first, when I got that, I was like, what do you mean? Because I worked in a cutthroat or more cutthroat, two different cutthroat, like kind of conservative cultures, and then talked about this too. And now I’m working for another company. And the first thing that they said to me is we just want you to be you, don’t worry about everyone else. We just want you to be you. And, and those like, you know, I will absolutely take less money. I will, you know, work harder to just , but I will, because those values are so important. And yes, I have student loans to pay. Yes, I do.

Sophie Wade: So pay her more!

Jenn DeWall: Like, but I will still figure it out. If I, you know, I would still take less pay. I know that I’ll figure out how to pay my student loans or whatever debts I might have. And like, I will still do that because my happiness is so important, but I, I know that we’re near the end of show. And I just want to ask you Sophie, like any final thoughts as it relates to maybe the conversation that we’ve had today, or your book Empathy Works, what would you like to share on a final note with our listeners?

Learning New Empathy Habits

Sophie Wade: Thank you. This has been a great conversation. And I, so the thing about this book is, you know, ultimately the whole point of it was to be practical. And to actually, again, help people understand each other, because, well, you have to start with yourself first. So you have to have enough understanding about yourself, to be able to understand other people that you’re working with. And it could be within the company. It could be along your supply chain, anybody in your ecosystem, and really just leaning into that and, and being very practical about different empathy habits, which could be really small, just like, you know, having whether you’re working virtually or in person, you know, connecting with someone at the beginning or the end of the meeting, you know, oh, you know, how’s, how’s your dog doing? We’re both dog owners. You know, we had, we both had our dog dogs in interrupting us. And they actually out right, right here next to me,

Jenn DeWall: Mine’s locked out right now. Mine’s locked out. She can’t come when we’re doing it live otherwise. Sophie Wade: Oh, OK. Well, I thought I’d have them here. . So you know, so we connect on that. These types of, of, you know, connections are so important. So that’s a very basic one, but there are lots of things that you can do in terms of empathy, which is like reading, reading, other people, looking at their faces listening to, to their voices. When somebody sends you an email or a text you know, looking checking, did somebody really mean that checking what, what they, what they meant without making a judgment? So there are lots and lots of practical things that in the book as well as sort of giving a, a greater framework. So the idea is really to, to bring more human understanding, you know, really lean into that the sort of the human-centric, as I said, counterbalance to this technology-driven landscape, because where now we’re coming out of the pandemic. I know we just had some huge new COVID cases coming up. But, but now that we’re coming out of it, there is no back to go back to. So we need to really craft the way forward for every single, you know, organization for their company, for their employees, and that’s gonna be different. So really trying to work out how to do that and how best to be able to connect with people and work that out, bringing everybody together and getting their contributions, because that’s gonna be the most successful way forward, really getting the expertise from, you know, more seasoned new managers and executives and the technology staff for from tends to be from people who’ve really grown up with the technology and having everybody together working together effectively. And that for me, is really using empathy to do that. So, so that’s kind of like the reason that I think this book is important is to, to sort of help people, you know, coming out of the pandemic and really being able to forge a new way forward, that’s going to be effective and enjoyable, and people engage in their work and have some fun of me. Come on.

Jenn DeWall: I, we have one short life, like work does not actually this awful place. Like there are a lot of things that we can do and it all starts, well, actually, I’ll just say this. It all starts with empathy, Empathy Works! So how do people get in touch with you? Where can they get the book? The book drops on May 3rd. How can they get in touch with you?

Where to Find Sophie’s Book: Empathy Works

Sophie Wade: Wonderful. So please preorder, it is available on Amazon on all kinds of online retailers. Whatever your favorite retailer is, please go and preorder it there. And if you do, there is actually a preorder offer, you can get a free to get to, to join a live webinar where you can ask me questions live. So that’s great SophieWade.com. There’s lots of information about the book there. There are also worksheets that will be available in the book. You’ll see that there are worksheets to help you sort of go through all kinds of things and choose your empathy habits and stuff like that. So SophieWade.com. My company is also Flexcel Network, but sophiewade.com is where all the information about the book is. Also, I have some LinkedIn courses which are actually free for the month of April if you want to take advantage of those now. Jenn DeWall: Oh, fantastic. I love that. Offer free courses, Sophie, thank you so much for donating your time, passion and expertise to share your perspective, your lived experience in with The Leadership Habit listeners. I am so grateful to have you on the podcast. I hope to have you back again and for everyone listening May 3rd, preorder your copy. Empathy Works. Thank you so much, Sophie Wade, Sophie Wade: Thank you, Jenn. Really, really appreciate it! It’s been such a fun conversation.

Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I loved the conversation with Sophie. So many different thoughts, different points of awareness and reflections came up as a result of that conversation. And as Sophie shared her new book, Empathy Works, The key to Competitive Advantage in the New Era of Work comes out May 3rd, and you can head on over to Sophiewade.com and there you can actually preorder your copy if you know someone that could benefit from this episode or they could really maybe gain a new perspective from hearing our conversation, share this episode with them. And of course, if you enjoyed this conversation, don’t forget to leave us a review. I’m your favorite podcast streaming service. Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.

The post The Future of Work is Empathy with Work Innovation Specialist, Sophie Wade appeared first on Crestcom International.

4 Words to Transform Your Sales with Merit Kahn, CEO of SELLect Sales Development

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Merit Kahn to talk about the four words to transform your sales. Merit Kahn is the CEO of SELLect- emphasis on sell- of SELLect Sales Development, author of Myth Shift: Challenging the Truths That Sabotage Success, co-host of The Smarter Sales Show podcast. And she is also a certified emotional intelligence coach and certified speaking professional. Since 1998, Merit has worked with salespeople, entrepreneurs, professionals, and sales teams, teaching them how to stop selling and start getting selected by their ideal clients. I hope you enjoy this conversation as Merit and I talk about the four words that can transform your sales.

Meet Merit Kahn, Sales Expert

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. I am so excited to be joined here on The Leadership Habit podcast with Merit Kahn. And today, we’re going to be talking about the four words to transform your sales. I feel like everyone’s probably like, what are those words, Merit? I want to know! But before that, before that we’re, we’re gonna leave that as a teaser, Merit. Can you just go ahead and introduce yourself? Tell us about who you are. This is your second time back on the podcast. We are so happy to have you. You provide a wealth of knowledge. So if you could just reintroduce yourself to our listening audience.

Merit Kahn:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me back. I am the CEO of SELLect Sales Development. We, we spell it S E L L E C T. That’s deliberate, not a misspelling. But we actually teach people to stop selling, and we want you to start getting selected by your ideal clients for your ideal clients of projects. And that’s really what we’re all about. So we teach a framework that helps people really us with the mechanics of selling what to do, or the action plans, what to, what to say or what to do, but really the mindset of strong sales and strong influencers. So

Jenn DeWall:

Wait, I mean, you made that sound simple, but here’s the thing. If the audience might be like, what do you mean stop selling? What do you mean by that? Because is that’s my job, right? If I want to generate revenue, what do you mean by that?

Merit Kahn:

Exactly. You know, I mean, I don’t know, maybe you’ve never gotten any of those pushy aggressive sales messages through LinkedIn or email again, your voicemail, those people that knock on your door, like all of the pushy, aggressive sales-y things that you’re kind of hardwired to push against. We don’t teach people how to do that. Most of the people that we work with, people, what people really appreciate is, you know, they’re professionals, they’re experts at what they do. They’re entrepreneurs, they’re, they’re good in their area of expertise, and they don’t necessarily want to feel like they’re pushing their solutions on anybody. They really wanna have what we call the new ABCs of selling. So it’s no longer about “always be closing,” that sales and pushing <laugh>. Now it’s about authentic business conversations. And so that’s when you are making that transition from sales old school, like how do, what do I say to close the deal and press hard? The third copy is yours. It’s Tuesday or Thursday better. Once you get rid of all that nonsense, you can really start to have authentic business conversations with your prospects and clients to determine together if there’s a mutual benefit to doing a transaction or creating a relationship together and do some appropriate business. And that’s what we’re all about. We wanna teach how to ask the right questions and, and create relationships that are truly those win-win partnerships.

Transform Your Sales With Authentic Relationships

Jenn DeWall:

Gotcha. I mean, I love that you talked about the word authentic. I think that’s so important. And I feel like, I don’t know if it’s that people today aren’t necessarily being trained or educated on sales, but what I feel like I see as a consumer, as an individual more and more is I would say more aggressive sales tactics. Oh, you haven’t, you didn’t respond to my email that I never asked you to send me. Right. And they kinda get like worse and worse. And I’m actually very surprised because where I don’t know how some of these things are being picked up, but I am seeing more and more of it. And so I am begging people to hire you because I want someone, cause you also said the second word— appropriate. And you know, I, I really do feel like there’s a need for people to understand what is appropriate today. And just because you got my email does not give you permission to basically send me five, six emails when I never asked about your product. I mean, I don’t, like I never asked, don’t even know what your product was. I don’t even know why you asked me. Like, and it’s, I don’t know. I think it’s because when I get that second one, that’s really rude. I’m that more frustrated? Like why would I ever do business with you now, ever, even if I did think of you. Speaking for anyone in the universe right now, <laugh>

Merit Kahn:

Well, and what you’re speaking to you is pretty common. It’s, you know, nobody wants to feel sold. Nobody wants to be pushed into anything. We all wanna make our own decisions. We wanna make our selections and what people are forgetting. And, and actually, I, you know, I’m guilty of this and the first half of my sales career, I didn’t really understand the value of this. But really, the first step to a closed deal is always an open mind. And when you step over that, when you try to imagine that everything that you’ve got is, is this perfect solution for somebody and you’ve got the right answers and you’ve got something there. You know, if everybody just knew about this, we’d close more deals, we’d have more clients. And so there’s an excitement. I appreciate the excitement, the enthusiasm about your offers, but you haven’t earned the right to pitch that yet first you and, and also you’re going to run the risk of ruining re potential qualified prospects by not treating them properly in the very beginning, which the very first thing that you wanna do is make sure that they’re open to hearing your offers, your solutions, your ideas, your opportunities, because if they’re not, not, it’s really no different than talking to a brick wall. Right? <Laugh> you know, It’s like, they’re not hearing you so stop wasting your breath.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for saying that. Sorry that I went on my pain point. I am just fatigued of hearing those messages and I just don’t know where they’ve been picked up, but now we’ll get into the top of good hand because I know even just with the knowledge and truth that you just shared right now, this is going to be a great conversation. So the four words to transform your sales, what are the four words?

Merit Kahn:

Well, if you’re open to it, I’m gonna give you I’m you a couple questions before I reveal those words. Are you okay with that?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah!

The Four Words to Transform Your Sales: Are You Open To

Merit Kahn:

All right. So there was a study done at Pepperdine University a number of years ago. They were trying to figure out if people really identified themselves as being open-minded. So they asked people if they would rate themselves as more open-minded than the average, and 95% of people said yes. So I don’t know about you, Jenn. Like, I don’t know where you learned math, but I learned old math. I’m old. Right? So in old math, those numbers don’t work. 95% of us cannot be better than the average. Just doesn’t work. Maybe new math. I dunno.

So if that’s the truth, then when I ask you, are you interested in something, Hey Jenn, are you interested in inviting me on the show to do a podcast? It’s pretty easy for you, actually. Well, you, that’s a bad example because you already know me and love me <laugh>, but it would be easy for you to say no to that. Like you can be uninterested in something, and it doesn’t impact you. Like you’ll sleep at night. No problem. Right. But if you wanna identify as somebody who’s open-minded and I ask you, are you open to inviting me back to do a second show on the podcast? It’s pretty hard to say no, I’m not open to it. Right? Because that speaks to who you are in terms of your identity. So the magic words I know, right? So the four magic words that will transform sales and I would argue pretty much anything else in life. Is, are you open to, and it’s really as simple as that, rather than asking somebody, if they’re interested in something, ask them if they’re open to it and, and see what happens from there.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Just, I mean, it’s so simple, right? Are you like, instead of, are you interested? And plus I feel like that gets added to like, Hey, let me know if you have any questions, if you’re interested, but “are you open to” actually makes me stop and think, I love that. And you described that. I didn’t even recognize the mind cycle that I just had marriage <laugh> of thinking like, yeah. Are you open to, because I think there is that piece of like it’s natural that’s or I guess in your experience, how do you notice, like how have you seen people apply that and change or transform their sales?

Merit Kahn:

Well, you mentioned LinkedIn. And so it seems like all of a sudden, you know, those of us who’ve been using LinkedIn for a really long time, you didn’t used to get the sales, the pushy aggressive lengthy sales messages in your LinkedIn messaging. And so now we’ve kind of, they’ve already, we’ve already trained ourselves like, oh, that’s, you know, not, not reading that one, like that’s a sales pitch. And so we are already not seeing it. So maybe just try this new approach and if you’re gonna do an automated, you know, process in your LinkedIn, try just less is more. Try getting to them open first because the truth of the matter is until they, they opt-in, in a sense and say, yes, I am open to learning a little bit more. Then you’re basically, you know, giving your sales pitch to the spam, you know, delete folder anyway.

So none of that is making a difference. So if you just tried a different approach and if you even got a few bites on that, then you’re actually able to deliver your full message to somebody who’s actually open to hearing it. So I would just try that and just say, you know, Hey, we haven’t done business. Would you be open to having a conversation to see if what you, what we do, and what you might need is a match at all? It’s a little harder to delete that there’s a curiosity factor, and I’m not trying to sell you prematurely.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Well, and I feel like there’s that makes me feel like they’re respecting me my time, me as a person, whether or not I would even want to buy, I feel like there’s an implied respect through those four words. I don’t know if that is also an intentional piece, but it just feels much more you’re inviting me into the conversation instead of pushing all of your stuff and then I’m yelling at me if I don’t want it, which is how some of that stuff feels exactly.

Transform Your Sales with Respectful, Authentic Business Conversations

Merit Kahn:

Yeah. You picked up on it. It is respectful, and it is an invitation and, and it does fundamentally feel different, but it also sets the stage for the conversation, the authentic business conversation that you really do wanna have. And you absolutely can’t have that if they don’t start with an open mind. So again, I, I always remind people, I’ll say it a few times. The first step to a closed deal is always an open mind. And so we really wanna be aware of that. That’s not something that’s baked into a typical sales process, right. You know, opening the other person’s mind, but it’s very simple. It’s very quick. And it’s really universal. In fact I use the same question, whether you and I are meeting one on one for a sales conversation, or I’m doing the opening keynote at a large conference. It, I open with the same question and that is, have you already decided it can’t get any better?

Or are you open to a new possibility? And I mean, think about that. Have you already decided it can’t get any better? Or are you open to a new possibility? When you ask that question- First of all, there’s two people that have to answer that question. First. We need to ask ourselves because, honestly, if I don’t think anything’s gonna get better in my business, I’m not gonna go to that networking event. I’m not paying to go to that conference. I’m not picking up the phone. I’m not, you know, renewing sales navigator on LinkedIn, right? There’s a host of things that I’m not gonna do if fundamentally I don’t see any growth potential in my business. So that’s the first thing you have to first see more. You have to be open to new possibilities, maybe in an aspect of your business. Am I open to things being easier and the sales cycle being shorter.

Okay. If I’m open to it, now I’m on the hunt for what are, are the ways that I can actually manifest that? Or maybe manifest the wrong woo-woo word. Execute right? Execute for all of the-

Jenn DeWall:

Just providing options, right?

Merit Kahn:

Yeah. You know, manifest if you want, but execute, if that’s more comfortable for you, it’s the same thing. But first nothing’s gonna happen unless you’re open to that new possibility. So the first person we ask that question is of ourselves. The second person is that we ask whoever we’re in a conversation with about a sales possibility. And so when I ask a prospect or an audience, that question, they have to think about that. They have to ask themselves, you know, am I open to a new possibility or is this about as good as it gonna get? And when they ask themselves that question, the magic is whatever they come up with as the answer that cannot be wrong. So I can’t force you to be open, but if I ask you the question, then you ask yourself and, and you discover for yourself that, yeah, yeah. I am open to a new possibility. And now it’s a whole different starting point to a sales conversation.

Jenn DeWall:

I, well, where do people get the starting point wrong? Cuz I, I love this. I can see that very clearly. Are you open to it? You know, you had talked about, it creates curiosity. It allows someone to make that choice conscious and intentional choice for themselves, whether they’re ready to invest and it sets the stage as you had said for that authentic connection, where do people get this wrong? I mean, I know we talked about a few different examples, but what are you seeing? And maybe we should preface it as you’re not incorrect, but maybe your sales process has an opportunity to change. <Laugh> are you open to it yeah.

The Open For Business Framework

Merit Kahn:

I think there’s a, there’s actually a couple places where people get it wrong. So I’ll say it like this. Most people in a sales conversation are, are really relying on the mechanics of selling. The what do I say? So they start with their quote unquote elevator pitch and they dump all over somebody. Like here’s all the ways that we can help you. And they start with the how, instead of why, like nobody cares how you deliver your programs or your solutions or your products until they understand why it’s in alignment with what their concerns and frustrations really are. So, so that’s the first major mistake is people are just quickly getting to how they fix things without understanding why does that really need to be fixed in the first place? Right. the other thing that people are getting wrong is they’re in an argument with reality about how the they might be wired and how that impacts the words that come to them to even say in the first place. So let me unpack that a little bit slower.

We have what we call our open for business framework. So when we work with a company or an entrepreneur, when I’m doing a program for an organization, there’s always three main components, you know, to be open for business is so much more than just having open office hours. And you’re able to transact business, you know, do a, a transaction, right. Being open for business, really open is its beyond the motions and the actions of, of B doing business. It’s a mindset as well. It’s an attitude it’s really being open to receive. It’s being enthusiastic about the business it’s being prepared. There’s a lot that goes into that. So the framework is really mindset, mechanics motion. So if you think about it, mindset is what you think. Mechanics is what you say, motion is what you do now. I hate to use the pandemic as an example at this year, at this point where two years passed all of the drama at this point, but it was a universal shared experience. It’s a little hard not to pick on it. Right.

Jenn DeWall:

Right!

Merit Kahn:

So if you tell me in an example, sales people, I was doing a lot of webinars at, or you know, early 2020 because what people were frustrated with is they didn’t know what was an appropriate conversation to have. You know, like I know I should to keep in touch with people. I know I should check in. I still think I need to sell something, but I’m not sure what’s appropriate. And so I found myself really leaning a lot more on the emotional intelligence training and, and certification that I’ve had. And what I recognized was there’s a, there’s a relationship between your level of empathy for others and your level of assertiveness for your own solutions. And when that was out of balance, it, it was ineffective in a myriad of ways.

Transform Your Sales by Balancing Empathy with Assertiveness

Merit Kahn:

So let’s pretend you’re, you’re a sales professional, your business leader, and you’re making calls to your clients or prospects and you’re high empathy, but you have very little assertiveness, so that conversation is going to sound no matter how, how well you’re trained you’re gonna say, gosh, you know, it’s really hard out there right now and there’s so much change and are you okay? Is there anything I can do to help you? And you’re gonna feel good because you were putting yourself in their shoes and all of that, but you get off the phone, even knowing that what you have could really help them in this moment in time, but you don’t offer it because your high empathy, low assertiveness,

Jenn DeWall:

I can think of so many times that I, as a business owner, as a coach, like have done that of, you know, you get in and you hear a client’s needs and yes, you just start to like, I want to serve or fix or help. Oh my gosh. I can totally relate to that. <Laugh>

Merit Kahn:

Right. OK. So let’s, let’s that’s one example then there’s the other side of the coin, which is people who are highly assertive, not aggressive, aggressive is mean assertive is grounded in your solution, confident in your and all of that. So if you’re high assertive, but low empathy, and then you’re making those calls that same timeframe. Well now you’re just kind of coming across as a jerk. It’s like, do you not know that there’s a, a global issue going on right now? Like seriously, you’re trying to call me and sell me your widgets, like right?

Jenn DeWall:

A disconnect.

Merit Kahn:

What people really need. And I would argue, this is true in any marketplace, no matter what is going on in the world, we won’t always wanna balance our level of empathy and assertiveness and what that sounds like in actual language using the four magic words. So let some forum is, Hey, I know things are really difficult out there. I can’t even imagine what’s going on in your world and I’d love for you to, you know, share whatever is happening. But if you’re open to it, can we have a conversation about the one thing that is within our control and see if our solutions, as it relates to business development strategies and these crazy times would be appropriate for helping you out of, you know, the situation that you’re in right now. Now the words, the actual words, and maybe I embellished, maybe it’s a little longer than you might say it, but the premise is the same.

It’s, I’m, I’m aware I wanna balance my empathy for them and my assertiveness that I do have a solution that can help. And I’m not gonna be quiet about it, especially if it’s a challenging time and I serve you right now. And the glue in between it is would you be open to having a conversation about the part that we can control? So that’s an example of really the importance of understanding how mindset plays in, because no matter what I train you to say in the mechanics of selling, if we’re layering that on top of you don’t know where you stand with empathy, assertiveness, self-regard, optimism, flexibility, some of the other emotional intelligence attributes that we can test for, then you’re at an incredible disadvantage because you don’t know how to adjust your approach or your language in different situations.

Emotional Intelligence Transforms Your Sales

Jenn DeWall:

Which I think brings forth. Or I guess the question for me is, you know, I know emotional intelligence, I love that this approach is really rooted in that. What do you do for the person? Like I have to think that there is someone on LinkedIn that actually probably thinks that they have a balanced approach to both assertiveness and empathy. Oh, I’m not certain if you have the answer, but how do you work with clients to maybe develop that self-awareness around, Hey, like maybe this approach probably could be dialed down or dialed up. Like how do you help people generate that self-awareness?

Merit Kahn:

Well I, I look at the ink in the paper. I do an actual assessment. I use a tool from multi health systems out of Toronto and they’ve got a highly scientifically validated assessment tool. And that really does tell me, you know, it measures your level of self-awareness. So if there’s a lack of self-awareness, then I know I have to read the report a little bit differently to them see the reality of the, their current wiring. What I love about that whole body of work is that it’s a snapshot in time and it can change and you can put some deliberate intention behind learning and growing and expanding your capacity in any of those areas that we can assess. But in particular, I, I always think it’s interesting to look at the individual attributes, but it’s always really the combinations and how they play together.

That really paint the full picture. And, you know, if you may have, you may not really see a finding the way that it, that others around you see it, but once you have that initial awareness, it just, it, it tunes you in to some of those potential blind spots that could be sabotaging your success without even knowing it. So I guess it’s another application for that. Are you open to question because you know, it really in, you know, you could ask a question of somebody, like, I know that you relate to yourself, you experience yourself as being balanced in empathy and assertiveness? And the example that I shared, would you be open to sharing with me real-world scenarios where maybe it’s been a little out of balance or maybe, you know, you’ve experienced other people out of balance and you kind of just invite them to discover for themselves where it may not be as balanced as they thought.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on that. If you find that you’re reflecting and you’re like, you know what, maybe I wasn’t showing up in this way as balanced, you had said it, it can be changed. You can change, you can grow only if are you open to, or you are open to <laugh>. Right. But I feel like that’s, you know, cause I think with emotional intelligence, it does get really easy to beat yourself up around maybe how you didn’t approach things in the past and how yes. Those relationships might be damaged or that person just maybe doesn’t remember at all, but give yourself permission to change today. So your first piece is mindset. Anything else you would add about the open to business framework as it relates to mindset?

Merit Kahn:

Well, mindset, really it’s more than the emotional piece. So I, I wanna, I don’t wanna step over the other pieces. It’s re you know, when I first started talking about the importance of a strong sales or leadership mindset, success mindset, you know, it, it’s one of those things. Everybody goes, yeah, that makes so much sense. And then they leave. They’re like, I have no idea what to do <laugh> to fix that or to figure out where I am, like, what is my mindset? It seems so ambiguous. And I really worked hard to try to figure out what are the pieces of that puzzle. I came down to three, there’s your internal mindset. That’s what you say to yourself. Those are your beliefs. Right? And you wanna do like a beliefs inventory. There might be things that you believe about money or the level of decision maker that you’re comfortable talking with, or the, the amount of money you think you’re worth. And maybe that got set at a certain point in your career and then life changed, or, you know, it used to be when I was in my twenties, I thought a hundred thousand dollars was a lot of money. And now I’m like, how does anybody live on that? <Laugh> like, oh my God. Right? So, but it’s shifted because my, my life experience shifted my needs shifted, right? So, but if my money mindset didn’t shift along with it, I’d be starving.

So, internal mind is an opportunity to take an inventory of the beliefs that you have about different things that are either supporting you or sabotaging you. And sometimes those hand me down beliefs, we need to hand back. And so that’s the first piece, the second piece of the puzzle, we call behavioral mindset. And that is what your actions say to other people. So that’s, you know, you’re probably familiar with behavioral style assessments, personality assessments, disc profiles, things like that. And that’s understanding, you know, how your actions are gonna be interpreted by other people and how to adjust your approach so that you can be better understood by someone else who has a different style than yours. And then that third piece is your emotional mindset, which we’ve talked about, but that’s really how well you underst and your own triggers, how well you are in control of your own emotional responses. And you understand how that, how your emotions impact others around you. So those three pieces of the puzzle are very easy to identify. And then there’s very different ways that we work with clients to make sure that they’re strengthening their mindset in the appropriate ways that will help them have those awareness moments that then we can layer on the, the training and the, the skills and the action plans that really work with their strengths.

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Transform Your Fear of Rejection

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. I have to ask, it’s probably a personal question, right? How do you coach people? Because I, you know, one of the things that makes sales an intimidating thing to even pursue or to execute as an individual is the fear of rejection, which I know has to be tied to that emotional mindset or the behavioral mindset. How do you even coach people, like what would be your tips to manage rejection? Because that is still the hardest that’s, you know, the biggest reason of why I think you might be more assertive then is like, well, I’m just gonna push it down your throat. Like, and I don’t care. But what do you say to that? Because that that’s me, I’m sure there’s so many other people that are like, I just am afraid to sell because I’m afraid of being rejected.

Merit Kahn:

I actually think that the fear of reject the most effective way I’ve seen to deal with that fear of rejection is kind of coming in the back door. So we’re we’re impact mindset, but we’re gonna do it through being in motion. And part of that is, again, it’s that awareness it’s going through that exercise of, okay, I wanna, I’m just making up numbers here. I wanna close a hundred thousand dollars in business. And my average sale is $10,000. So clearly I need 10 of those. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> automatically takes you from everyone in the universe is a prospect. If you could fog a mirror, you could buy my stuff and maybe, you know, and I’ll reach my 10, my, my 10 customers to, oh, I only need 10. That’s not even one a month, like, huh. So I think there’s, there’s more power in the, the reality.

Again, it does relate to emotional intelligence in the fact that we do wanna have a sense of, we can measure your level of reality testing and your level of optimism. So that’s another great combination to look at for sales people, like I’m really high optimism and I have to work at keeping reality in check, right? So that that’s like the beginning of the year, I’m like, of course I’m gonna make my aggressive goals that I’ve never hit my entire life. Like, of course this is gonna be that year <laugh> and like, absolutely. But then I have to be like, well, you know, and then the reality is this is my actual capacity, given the team that I have right now. If I really wanna reach that goal, I’m gonna have to do something different about the team. I’m gonna have to do something different about our offers, our marketing strategy, like there’s work to do, right. So it’s that balance of reality and optimism. That’s going to help you deal with that fear of rejection, you know, because I have to have a clear strategy to, to reach my goals and recognize that not everybody needs to fit in that picture and that that’s okay. It’s almost like, you know, it’s, it’s like dating. It’s like, I’m not gonna be a perfect fit for everybody. You’re gonna marry that one person. That’s the person

Jenn DeWall:

<Laugh> right.

Merit Kahn:

Just dating to find that person.

Jenn DeWall:

No, I think that’s a helpful way to look at it is like having optimism, the belief that it can work out, but also acknowledging reality and what might be the barriers or obstacles or constraints that you have that are getting in your way. And it’s, it’s not just you. There are other things outside of you that are impacting it like the pandemic.

Merit Kahn:

So the open for business framework Is all about the mechanics of selling. So that’s really focused on what do you say? And there are pieces of the process. And I think that when, when, when people are winging it through the sales process, not only does it feel unorganized for your prospect and they get a sense of, I don’t know if I can trust you because I’m not sure that either one of us knows a, what we’re supposed to do next, like it’s not up to your prospect to guide you through how to sell your solutions. Right? And so you really wanna be buttoned down with that, right? You, you need to know where you are in the sales process. It, it also eliminates a lot of the stress and the reason that people don’t like to think of themselves as salespeople because they feel like they’re pushy and aggressive because they don’t have a roadmap for it.

And so it’s very simple. First we start with investigation, like, who really are your ideal, what’s the ideal profile. And and, and how do you approach that with a curiosity? So you’re really looking for who’s, who’s the right fit. And then you set an expectation, which is, you know, this is kind of how it works. And we’re first gonna, I’m gonna ask you some questions. We’re gonna determine if we kind of feel comfortable each other to going on to the next step. And then if we do, you know, we’ll make a decision, this makes sense or, or doesn’t it’s appropriate offer it isn’t. And so it’s kind of like putting that frame around the whole process and then you get into questioning, you know, there should never be a question that is ever asked of you at any time of, of the sales process where you don’t feel like you are in control anymore.

And if you’ve ever had that experience, somebody gives you an objection or they ask a question you are prepared for, like, you sh there’s always a way to deal with that. And so I teach very in depth, very easy questioning strategies so that you’re never caught off guard. Once you have those things in place, then you can go on to qualification. And those are things like, you know, do they have pain, right? Like, is there a reason for them to buy? Do they have, you know, are they willing and able to make an investment to solve the problem and does their decision-making people process all of that? Does that match with something that I’m comfortable working within? So those are qualifiers. And at any point, somebody might not qualify for how you like to do business or, or your offers or how much you charge or any of that. So that’s the next piece. And then the final piece is–

Finding Your Niche

Jenn DeWall:

Can I ask a quick question about the, like, about the, because I, I want, I wanna ask about objections, but even in the investigation, because I feel like, and whether it’s someone that, you know, is with it in sales or even leaders of an organization, I think one of the most difficult pieces it, or that I see is that they try to be, as you said, like, if they can fog up a mirror or they can buy my, they try to be everything to everyone. So I’m curious, how do you help people actually know you’re not just shutting down business by saying no to someone, because I notice that people, they can be told that advice or like make sure, and from a business capacity, you know, make sure you’re thinking about your core product and not deviating your innovation efforts from that. What do you give to kind of reduce that? I think what is it, a scarcity mindset then that we have of just feeling afraid that if I, if I niche down or if I really get specific, I’m gonna miss opportunity. How do you help people with that?

Merit Kahn:

I, I think that the, the easiest way to help them through that is to help them see really the potential of the marketplace, even if they niche down to something pretty small. So in our ex, in, in my world, as an example, you could say that we provide sales, training, coaching consulting to anybody who sells anything, right. Like, right. You could, but that’s a, that’s really hard to target. It’s really hard to find them, you know, like AI doesn’t program for that. Right. Like I but instead, you know, we, we drill down, okay, well really in who do we, who do we not serve? Well, if you sell to governments you know, any, anything like that, like, that’s just, that’s a whole nother animal. Like we don’t touch that. If you can click here, buy now, that’s probably not our market. And we actually drill down to, it’s still pretty broad, but it’s, if you sell something custom creative, it requires a consultation and not a click here to buy now, we’ve got something for you.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh!

Merit Kahn:

Right. It’s complex, creative or requires a consultation. That’s when somebody, so that could speak to my engineering firms that I work with. My, IT companies, my in entre entrepreneurs, the woman who sells to nonprofits. I mean, it’s like, there’s a lot in there, but it we’re narrowing it down to a type of a process, not necessarily an industry or a decision-maker. So there’s lots of ways to narrow down your market without being concerned about whittling away so much at it that there’s nothing left. You’re gonna like pick up the phone and call your two prospects. <Laugh>

Jenn DeWall:

I like you just, just, it’s just narrowing down. You’re not closing opportunities. You’re just narrowing the list. And I know that I cut you off. I thought you were gonna say a four thing unless you were gonna go into the third of the open to business framework.

Merit Kahn:

Oh, right. No. Well, the last piece of the mechanic step is presentation, but the thing that people get wrong is they get so excited about their solutions that they step over qualifications or questions. Because they feel like their solution is so good. It’s gonna do the selling for them. And yeah. If you’re in a consultative sales process and your solutions are so good, then guess what? They don’t need a salesperson!

Jenn DeWall:

Right. So like we’re coming to you, you don’t even have to ask

Selling the Appropriate Product to the Appropriate Customer

Merit Kahn:

<Laugh>. Right. Yeah. So you only wanna, you wanna make sure that you are only presenting appropriate offers to the appropriate, you know, because they match for that pro prospect. And I, I have a whole online course on presenting proposals. And how do you, how do you set up the proposal? How do you go through all of that? I mean, there’s a lot of meat in there, but at the, you know, and it’s bare bones, it’s making sure you’ve gone through all the steps, checked off everything on the checklist before you get to that part where you’re really providing that, that solution and, you know, closing a deal.

Jenn DeWall:

I love the different, or just the distinction that you made of how important it is to balance, you know, going back to an earlier example the assertiveness with empathy, like your assertiveness might, your over assertiveness might show up in your mechanics piece by way of saying, everyone’s gonna want this. And that’s not true. Well, is there product, is there even a product or service that every single person on the planet would ever possibly want beyond water? Or like,

Merit Kahn:

No, even water, there’s so many types of water, bottled water, bubbly water, we can’t even agree on that.

Jenn DeWall:

If you really think of, like, I don’t know if there’s one thing I could think of that everyone loves or just feels that they need in their lives, unless it’s, you know, related to like me being alive. I don’t know what that is like, and I think, but maybe that example comes to mind because I think of that assertiveness, maybe that’s the way that I would think of it as like, Jenn, this is why you can’t try to please everyone. Cause you’re not there for everyone. And like just doing my own processing Merit <laugh>.

Transform Your Sales with Straightforward Conversations

Merit Kahn:

Yeah. No, I, I love that. I’m like, I feel like I’m watching therapy in real time. Like just you know, I think it’s fine to be not a perfect fit for everybody. And the more comfortable you are acknowledging that upfront it, it, some, some people use it like a strategy, like a technique, like a sales technique to say, you know, we’re not a perfect fit for everybody, but if I could show you a way and they, they take this like good new sales principle, but they marry it with some old school, you know, thing that doesn’t work anymore. Like, don’t, don’t say if I can show you a way, that’s no one that’s just pushy. But I feel like, you know, it’s okay to say, look, we’re really not a perfect fit for everybody. So if you’re open to it, let’s just have a straightforward conversation.

Merit Kahn:

Like, let’s just, I’m not gonna, I’m not, I’m nothing to sell you or I’m not gonna push any solutions. I don’t even know if we’re, if it’s appropriate for us to do business together. So why don’t we just take a first step, which is, let’s have that conversation. Let’s discover for each other, for ourselves, if there’s enough of a match to, you know, have a deeper conversation, like let’s start with 15 minutes. Is there enough that we could uncover in 15 minutes that leads us to, it’s appropriate to have a next conversation. And in 15 minutes, I know my basic qualifiers, you know, like you know, I’m listening for, is it complex? Is it creative? Is it consultative? Is it high ticket? Because you know, we’re not the cheapest training outfit in town either. And my clients, if they’re low, if they’re selling based on price, we’re not a match for them.

Merit Kahn:

I don’t work with people like that. I don’t want you to be the lowest price provider ever. You’re never gonna you’re you don’t set yourself up to win that way. Right. So I know that there are certain qualifiers. I might as well get those out of the way first. And every one of my prospects is gonna have that same deal. Right before we got on this podcast. I had a discovery call with a woman in Austin, Texas. And that’s where our company is headquarters, but I’m in Denver and I’m the, you know, the lead trainer. We have some trainers on the east coast and, and in the, you know, Central US, but you know, her first, I said, how did you find out about it? She said, I looked up sales training, Austin. And I was like, Hmm, well, here we go. Like we, you know, so. You know, like, all right, well just ask you right outta the gate. Is it a deal breaker? You know, we, we are no longer doing right now. We’re not doing our local training center that we have in Austin. We’re not doing training in that delivery model right now. Are you okay with that? Are you open to a virtual training program? And she’s like, oh yeah, actually that would be much better. Oh, okay. You know, so I didn’t like she, she was still qualified even though that could have been a disqualifier right outta the gate.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Like, and it’s simple. I feel like just to ask your qualifiers, you’re saving my time. You’re saving your time. Yeah. Gosh. I feel like all of us would get time back if we, if we did ask those questions, I think that’s, so I wanna get into your third part of your framework, which is, I believe it was motion. Am I right by that?

Measuring Your Progress

Merit Kahn:

Yes. So motion is all about what do you do? And that’s, you know, you start with your goals and then you build your action plan. You get really specific, but it’s about measuring and tracking. Make sure you have making sure you have the accountability structures in place to hold to make sure that you are going to reach your goals that you’re tracking well, every week you gotta check in on these things. And so we, you know, we have tools and tracking systems that we use with clients to check in and make sure that they’re holding themselves accountable or we’re holding themselves accountable because the numbers don’t lie. You know, if I, if I see that you are, you’re having a lot of discovery calls, initial conversations, but they’re not leading to an equal number of, you know, presentations where you’ve, you’ve gone through the qualifiers and now you’re presenting a solution. Well then there’s something wrong in that conversation. Or not wrong, but maybe that’s, you know, are we putting the, are we having calls with the wrong people? Are we not saying the right things on those calls? Like, why aren’t we leading to presentations or if you’re having a lot of presentations, but very few are turning in converting a closed business. Well then there’s something wrong with the presentation. So let’s use the numbers to tell us the stories to inform the coaching.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And the part that I think is easy to be afraid of. Right. It’s easy to look at that and be like, but I have one, or I have a closed rate of 20%. And I feel like, I’ll just say, as a business owner, that’s often the one that I like to hide from <laugh> it’s like, I don’t wanna see the reality of what I think will happen and then reflecting, because I think that’s where the disappointment really sets it. And that’s where the, the, you know, that the inner critic just starts to say, are you in the right path? Are you doing the right things? So I love to hide from that, but obviously it’s not an easy thing to hide from because you can look in the bank and be reminded. <Laugh> like,

Merit Kahn:

You know, it’s, there’s no, there’s no getting around it. You’ve got to know what your numbers are. You’ve, you’ve got to track your percentages so that you, but not in an it, so it’s not to make yourself wrong. It’s to find the areas where you can improve. And I think there’s two things that, that make it a lot easier for people to come to grips with, with tracking their numbers. And one is that they, they let go of the make wrong part of this conversation. They lean into the fact that they have a growth mindset. That’s really the first thing. They have a growth mindset, so they know that they can improve and the numbers are strictly a tool to help them find the specific area is to spend their time on that improvement practice.

Merit Kahn:

And, you know, when you look at it like that, it’s like, oh, you know, okay, numbers gotta check my numbers, but I’m learning. And so I think that helps a lot. And the other thing is just that reality-testing piece, like, you know, balancing that like with optimism, like we talked about, as long as you can see a greater possibility, then the numbers are really just giving you access to make that a reality. It, but it’s not about, you know, we don’t track numbers to beat you up with them just to inform how do we help

Where to Find Merit Kahn

Jenn DeWall:

And I love it. And to help you access what you want. Yeah. We need to understand that Merit I’ve loved our conversation. How I, I know I’m gonna reinforce this with the bumper, but I, I always love it when, when our guests share it, how can people get in touch with you? How can they have you help with their sales? Cause I would actually appreciate it more people did. So then I don’t get harassing emails. So if you could help them with that but how can they get in touch with you?

Merit Kahn:

I think the best thing that what I’d really like to offer people is an opportunity to do an online assessment. It’s very, it’s pretty in depth. It’s our sales SWOT on steroids. We like to call it. So, you know, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats, but we’re just looking at that sales. We’re looking at the specific components of that open for business framework. So mindset, mechanics, motion. So if you go to MeritKahn.com/podcast, so M E R I T K A H N slash podcast, that’ll take you to a page there’s a free download. That explains a little bit more about the open for business framework. We’re always adding some new resources to that page, but there’s a link to take you to this online assessment. And let me tell you, Jen, what is, I won’t always be able to offer it like this, but for the time being until we’re way overloaded with it I will continue to make this pledge. I actually personally review all of the information that comes in through those SWOT assessments. And I do a personalized, a hundred percent custom, hi Jenn video to you to take you through what I see from the way that you answered that report. And, oh my gosh. I know it’s, it’s literally

Jenn DeWall:

Like an instant partner from taking that. That’s fantastic!

Merit Kahn:

Yes. Eventually we will get to the point where we need to automate that and it won’t be as personal, but I really believe that it’s a great tool. It’s been very eye-opening. It’s, you know, yes. You may wanna talk to us more about how we specifically can work with you on these things, but I will give you some various pinpoint feedback on what you can do and what’s the right part of that framework to start to work and, and make some progress for you. So highly recommend. Take me up on that. If it is, it’s a hell of an offer, I must say. And then also on that site, if you wanted to learn a little bit more about the select sales training offers, there’s a training tab on the Merit Kahn site wanna know about the speaking engagements I do for companies and associations, conferences, there’s information about that. And then there’s always the Let’s Talk button! 15 minutes on my calendar. I don’t know if we should work together. Let’s have a conversation if you’re open to it, take it, take me up on that too.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. You just really laid down some offerings there. I love that, but me, what I really appreciated was just walking through and just giving it and making it accessible and also answering probably some of my personal and likely other people’s questions too. Thank you for giving The Leadership Habit community, your time, your expertise and your passion. I was so thrilled to have you back on the show. So thank you again.

Merit Kahn:

Thanks Jenn!

Jenn DeWall:

Thank so much for listening to this week’s episode in The Leadership Habit podcast, I loved my conversation with Merit and I just felt like it was stimulating and it helped me gain the confidence that I needed to even approach sales in a different way. And of course she just shared a great offer with all of our audience. So if you want to have access to Merit’s free online SWOT and get feedback directly from Merit, you can head on over to MeritKahn.com/podcast. Or you can find that link in our show notes. It’s spelled Merit, M E R I T K A H N dot com slash podcast. If you know someone that maybe is struggling with sales, or maybe they’re just getting into the sales part of their business, share this episode with them, spread that as well. And, of course, if you enjoy today’s podcast, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service until next time.

 

The post Four Words to Transform Your Sales with Merit Kahn, CEO of SELLect Sales Development appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Make Strategies Stick with Executive Coach, Liz Kislik

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn Dewall sat down with Liz Kislik to talk about how to make strategies stick. Liz Kislik, a Harvard Business Review and Forbes contributor, has over 30 years of experience speciaLizing in developing high-performing leaders in workforces as a management consultant and executive coach. Liz has helped family-run businesses, national nonprofits, and Fortune 500 companies like American Express, Girl Scouts, Staples, Janssen Pharmaceuticals, and Highlights for Children solve their thorniest problems! In her TEDx talk about why there’s so much conflict at work and what you can do to fix it, Liz shows how diagnosing root structural issues can resolve current problems and help organizations thrive in the long term. Enjoy our conversation as Liz and Jenn talk about how to make strategies.

Meet Liz Kislik, Management Consultant, Executive Coach and More!

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and you’re here with Liz Kislik! Liz, It’s so great to have you on the show. I’m so excited for our conversation to talk about how to make strategies stick. Something that I’m sure a lot of people are like, ‘Can you please give me the answer, Liz?’ I’m so happy that you’re on The Leadership Habit podcast. And I know we read your bio, but I would love to just hear it for our listeners to them, for them to get to know a little bit about you. Could you tell us maybe how you came to be, how you became really interested in the subject matter, and you really developed your expertise in this way, or what’s your story said simply?

Liz Kislik:

I’m very happy to be with you. I think you are really uncovering some of the issues that people need answers to. And in my story, when I graduated college, I wanted to go to work as opposed to going to grad school, which is what most of my friends did because I thought work was where the action was. And I still believe that even after going to grad school, I really saw that if you were willing to work hard and you also had to be lucky, you could get access to people and to opportunities. And I say that as a privileged person, I’m white. I am the child of educated people. So you have to know where you’re starting from, but in general, if you are willing to look for the things that are going undone and take care of them for other people’s benefit, they’re usually glad to have you. And so, I had a promotion every six months in the company I worked for after college. And when I was 23, I was running a 300 employee call center. And that was really too— it was too big a job. The hardest job I’ve ever had and one in which I was only partially successful, I was not successful for myself because I actually thought part of my job was to make sure everybody was happy at work.

Jenn DeWall:

And yes, I feel like a lot of people can relate to that right now. They’re like, that’s what keeps me up at night is trying to keep everyone happy.

Liz Kislik:

Right? And what I’ve come to learn is people need to keep themselves happy. What leadership needs to do is create the conditions in which work can be really satisfying. And the workplace conditions are good to work in. So they’re fair. They recognize people’s efforts. They know who you are—all that kind of stuff. And you have the opportunity to be curious about your job and what else is going on there. And to look for ways to make things better. And that can create satisfaction and meaning in an employee’s life. But no workplace leader can actually make everybody happy. And it’s a false, false premise.

Jenn DeWall:

Where do you think that we pick that up? Because I, I know that in your work, you see it in my work, what teaching for Crestcom. I hear it all the time, this expectation that as a leader, I’m supposed to know all of the answers, and I’m supposed to somehow make everyone happy. Where do you think you picked that up? Or where do you think some people, just from your perspective, where do you think people pick that up?

Liz Kislik:

I’m having a bunch of thoughts. For myself, I picked it up from my grandfather who had his own business and loved his staff and his staff loved him. And I learned about many of the things that he did to take care of his staff. And I just made the assumption that that included their being happy. But I think we learned it, you know, from the movies and TV and the way we learned about romance and stuff like that. You know, I think that’s all in there even though workplace and movie, sorry, TV and movie workplaces are often terrible, but that’s how we know that it’s supposed to be fabulous because they’re showing us that it’s terrible on purpose, you know? So we think, oh, the reverse must be this wonderful idyllic thing.

Jenn DeWall:

No, and it’s not. And it’s OK that it’s not because we are all so vastly different in a lot of different regards, different periods of our life, different periods of our career. So on and so forth that it’s going to be virtually impossible for any leader to get it right for every single being. I love that, cuz that’s gonna make, you know, I know we’re going to be talking about strategy and that’s likely an obstacle that many people have to overcome with strategy is knowing that it may not be accepted by all. But I wanna ask you one more question about your business as a workplace expert, knowing that you do go into organizations and help them. What are some of your favorite challenges to help them solve?

Liz Kislik:

I deal a lot with conflict. With interdepartmental conflict, with conflict within an executive or leadership team, with the kinds of problems that have been around a while and people don’t know what to do to fix them. And that really floats my boat because I get to be really curious about what’s going on. And so I get to ask everybody all kinds of questions and they tell me their answers. And then in a way I’m working with the same facts that anybody could have worked with. But as an outsider, I can see them differently. I can reframe the issues. And so often that means the log jam starts to adjust people, see what really could be changed and we get to make the work and the workplaces more satisfying for people.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Which I love. I am so passionate, and I really do believe that we can create a culture for everyone to thrive to, you know like there are still going to be some people that won’t like it. But I think just even how we treat people, how we resolve our conflict, how we actually support one another, we can create those things. And I have to believe that you all have that same vision that like we can actually create workplaces. People want to work at.

Liz Kislik:

It really is true. I, I think we have to give up the idea, first of all, that it’s natural and will happen automatically. Yeah. Because it doesn’t matter how good the people are. We all want slightly different things. We all have different styles. So it’s kind of unfair to assume things would just fall into a place that would be personally thrilling. You know, it all needs work.

Why Don’t Our Strategies Stick?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. That’s a perfect segue into our conversation about strategy. Because it has to start with that intention that we just can’t, you know, there, we have to be intentional about putting a plan or actions into place to be able to achieve a different result. It’s not just going to happen by accident. Well, it can, but it may not be the outcome that you always want. So let’s dive into our topic today. How to make strategies stick. Liz, from your perspective, what goes wrong in planning strategy?

Liz Kislik:

There are so many ways to answer this question again. OK. So the first thing that I’ll say is, people actually disagree about what strategy is, but don’t necessarily know that they disagree. Oh, tell me more. So I can’t tell you how many people I’ve worked with who think that strategy means ideas, that if they have thoughts about something we should do or how things could work, they assume that that strategy as if strategy occurs by thinking. And since it’s not, that means a lot goes wrong. Because strategy needs to focus on particular kinds of goals, their outcomes that need to be stated. It takes into account the actual real-world conditions, not just made-up stuff, not just the way you want it to be. It has to face what is really true. And, and maybe this is really the most challenging thing– it has to do that when you know, you don’t know everything. That the likelihood of being wrong is actually high because your strategy is pointing toward the future. I had a wonderful conversation with Rita McGrath, who’s a professor at Columbia law school and wrote this book called Seeing Around Corners about strategy. And this premise strategy is about taking us into the future. But when we plan, we’re mostly planning based on what we’ve done in the past. So there’s a big disconnect right at the beginning.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I love that. Well, yeah, so many people, and I know we teach a class at cross com on innovation and our subject matter expert. And this quote always sticks with me. His name is Steven Shapiro, “expertise is the enemy of innovation.” I’m sure someone’s already, like, I heard her say that before, but it’s not my quote, but it is his. And I think that really shows the foundation of where strategy can go around is that we’ve got all of this past historical data that we’re using to make decisions that may or may not be relevant to get you to where you want to be. But yet, we don’t throw out the bad data.

Don’t Forget—Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results

Liz Kislik:

Not even that we, we don’t even know. I mean, think about every prospectus you’ve ever seen. If, if you’ve ever considered an investment, it says past performance is not indicative of what’s gonna happen in the future. So when there’s actual liability involved, they know to write that down. Yes. Well, it’s true for the rest of us.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, I, no. I love that. The other things that come to mind as you were sharing, where does it kind of go awry? People think it’s the idea. This is so exciting. It’s that shiny object, but then there’s no follow-through. And that’s what you’re talking about with the goals, with having small actions. We just think that the idea is fancy and exciting. So everyone else will follow suit. And I like that idea as well.

“Culture Eats Strategy for Breakfast”— Peter Drucker

Liz Kislik:

Is it Drucker who said culture eats strategy for breakfast? I can’t remember.

Jenn DeWall:

I’m not sure. I don’t remember, but that might be him.

Liz Kislik:

And I would say that there is a gap in the middle of those things. So if strategy is the big idea, and let’s say it’s a good, big idea. You need a lot of plans to get you from the big idea to anything real that’s going to happen in the world. The strategy doesn’t make itself happen. And the question is, how does that get translated from, say, the boardroom to the desk level? And what are the various highways and byways in between where the vision, the big intention get communicated clearly, concretely– or as is much too often the case– vaguely or not at all? Sometimes all that happens is anybody’s manager is telling them what to do on a given Tuesday. That is just like what they did the Tuesday before. And there is actually no connection to the future. Look whatsoever. It’s as if we’re only living in an ever-present present.

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, I can picture that just in the sense of even in earlier roles throughout an organization where you’re kind of just given the task, but your head down do the task, but you don’t understand how the task supporting that larger, larger vision, whether it’s supporting the larger vision because sometimes that’s not even clear. Right. And I think I had a little bit more ego in my twenties. And so, I wanted to connect to that vision. And so if I felt like my work wasn’t, then I’m like, well, this isn’t fun because it’s not visible. Right? I’m not gonna get the recognition! I had, I had an ego.

Liz Kislik:

But no, no, no! That’s even without wanting to be recognized. And there’s nothing wrong with that! First of all, it’s a huge motivator. Yeah. For people who don’t care about being recognized, it’s actually harder to know what will work for them. This goes back to the thing we talked about at the beginning, trying to make everybody happy. What people need is to know they are connected to something that is important, that has value. And if they don’t have the connection to the strategy, then all they have is task after task. And then it feels like anybody could do that. You don’t need them. You don’t need their level of speciaLization, expertise, dedication, et cetera. It could be a drone. So it’s quite remarkable how often, say, a CEO holds a town hall meeting and announces the strategy, and people get excited because it sounds good. And they think about what this might mean for them, but then they go back to their work and they don’t hear about it from their boss.

So what does that mean? Does that mean it’s another flavor of the month? You know, we change this stuff all the time. People complain about that so often. Does it mean the strategy is happening, but their boss is not on board, so they’re not allowed to connect to it? Does it mean somebody in the middle wanted something different and is actually directing troops in a completely different way from where the CEO wanted to go? I have worked in workplaces where every single one of these things happens.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. Well, the permafrost of middle management, right? Like that, or that’s how I guess how I’ve recently heard it described is that, you know, that idea comes down that strategy, the plan, and then people aren’t bought-in at the midlevel and then it doesn’t go anywhere because heck if they, you know, and I think there’s that accountability piece that you were talking about earlier. Its having the plan, but you, yes. I feel like I’ve seen that one. And the other one that keeps coming up is, is burnout by way of competing priorities and initiatives of having too much going on. I don’t know, from, from where that sits, like, I don’t know if there’s a magic number for the amount of strategies or if it’s so much that makes sure that you categorize them as this is a high priority, mid-level priority. So then people know that this is actually still where we want you to focus your efforts on. And these ones down here are nice to have, but not need to have, like, I don’t. How do you, how would you even start, I guess if you were going into an organization and they were like, we want Liz to come help us with strategy and your perspective as a workplace expert, how we, you even start?

How Do We Start Making Strategies Stick?

Liz Kislik:

So every place is different because they do have a history, and you have to take it into account. For what you’re talking about, this idea of too many strategies, it can often help to think that there is a strategy that matches the vision and the huge thing we want to accomplish, which might be being number one in our marketplace for thus and so. Or it might be changing the lives of children in regard to whatever the thing is that we work on, then those things happen because there are a variety of initiatives, and this is the first place that stuff goes haywire because the initiatives belong to different people in the organization.

Do all the initiatives actually roll up to the major strategy. Do they all contribute to the strategy? Has anybody at the executive level thought deeply about it? Are we making sure that the initiatives aren’t cannibaLizing each other, you know, those kinds of things, this stuff all takes so much effort and energy? It’s not surprising that it doesn’t get carried through end to end. Right. But if the initiatives are clear and say there’s a committee or a board or an executive team, or, you know, the CEO owner, whoever’s at the top, if somebody blesses this, this is a strategy. These are the initiatives. Then theoretically, there should be some kind of check-in process with the next level that happens periodically, not once. And then again, when you’re doing strategic planning for the next year, which is a big flaw in a lot of how strategy is conducted. You never hear about it again until, you know, the fourth quarter when we do the next one.

Jenn DeWall:

Right. So I’m laughing because it’s just, I’ve sat at the town hall. I’ve also watched it go from, ‘this is so exciting’ to ‘Oh, did we even do anything on that?’

The Commander’s Intent: Does Everyone Know Their Mission?

Liz Kislik:

Right! So there are a couple of metaphors that can be helpful. One that I like is Sherwood Forest, where Robin Hood was because Robin Hood would tell his Lieutenant, and they would spread out, and each had a group of villagers that they talked to, who then talked to other people. It’s true. The downside of this is the game of telephone, but if you do it well, this idea of many of us grew up with there was a class parent who would call certain people to communicate the news of the class. When we were in second grade, it actually works if it’s followed well and if the content is clear. So if you think of Sherwood Forest and how you make sure that your network of communication is actually robust and consistent, and you’re checking for breaks in the network, that can be a really helpful thing.

Another helpful metaphor comes from the military, and it’s called commander’s intent. And this goes back to the idea of how do you choose which priorities. So theoretically, whatever the commander’s intent is, it is so well understood by every single soldier, every foot soldier, that if it came to it, and there was only one soldier alive, that soldier would know what their job would be to come the closest to meeting commander’s intent. That’s why you hear of these things where some heroic person in the military tries to take a hill by themselves. It’s because they are following the intent. They may be the last person standing, but they are going to try to carry out the mission as best they understand it.

And when you believe you know what the mission is, then it’s sometimes easier to sort through those priorities. Does it actually serve the mission directly or not? And if it doesn’t serve the mission, who do you bring it to adjudicate? Should we be putting our resources, our time, energy, attention, focus, any of those things into this now? Or do we need to hold back because we need to serve the mission?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I, the commander’s intent. I very much like that because if you’re listening to this, it’s having the high-level objective. What are you trying to accomplish? But I think it does get confusing. When you can tell that the commander’s intent is unclear or maybe it’s too complicated, that I can’t even understand it, which means I’m not gonna see how I’m gonna help you. But it also, I think you’re speaking to me in the sense that I’ve sat in rooms where we’re doing a strategy, but then there’s the next strategy and they’re not connected. And so then it adds this piece of, well a what? One’s more important, but B why are we doing this one? Why are we deviating from what we know to incorporate this? Is it because it supports our, our intent? Or is it because it’s what everyone else is doing? And if that’s the case, we’re probably not gonna follow through on it. Yep. But yet I’ve sat in multiple boardrooms where we have this vision, we’ve got a strategy to get there. And then somehow there’s this straggler that gets added in that has nothing to do with that one. And I, that’s a point of, I guess it’s just a challenge for me because then how do you articulate that? Right? Because when it comes down to strategy, I think I am a pretty direct person. You might probably know how I feel about something, but yet in those moments where you notice that other people in the room aren’t challenging that, it does become easy to be vulnerable to groupthink and being like, I guess this is fine. You know, I guess this is what we’re doing. I don’t wanna challenge it. I want to be mindful of our rank. And so, yeah. Then I’m just going to follow suit. I don’t know what you’re like. I’m sure you see that all the time, people just disengaging or not offering their point of view because they don’t even think, you know, why bother? Or this could be worse for me if I bring it up and everyone else is saying it. So again, why bother.

Create a Safe Space for Different Ideas

Liz Kislik:

Right? Why make myself unsafe? Yes. Yes. OK. You’ve put a whole load in there. Let me think about how I wanna break that out. So there’s a kind of phase zero that comes before the situation you’re talking about. And this goes back to Drucker’s point about culture, no matter how good the strategy is, if by the time it gets to any individual decision-maker or someone who carries out decisions, if they don’t feel that they can ask a question about it safely, you are in a place where you’re actually paying for groupthink.

Jenn DeWall:

Ooh, I like that perspective. You’re paying for groupthink. Do you wanna pay for that?

Liz Kislik:

You are paying for people to keep themselves safe because what all try to do that one way or another, right? Some people will speak up because they fear the lack of safety that will come six months down the road if they feel that what they’re doing has diverged from the strategy. So some people will actually speak up, but it’s very frightening if everybody’s going along in a meeting where all that ever happens is rubber stamping. Very frightening to say something that is different from the mainstream. If you are in a situation like that, how do you ask about those things? One of the things that you do, is, first of all, you never give up. You know, as long as you come back to work the next day, you always have another opportunity to figure something out.

So you develop a relationship with your boss, where you can ask confusing but curious questions in a nonthreatening way, if at all possible. And if you can’t develop that with your boss, you look for opportunities based on project assignments, based on the monthly birthday parties, whatever it is, you look for opportunities to have relationships with other leaders, because a marker of somebody who wants to accomplish more in an organization is somebody who is curious, why are we working on this? Explain to me how this thing happens. I’m so interested in why we decided that thing. Can you tell me more about the background. If you’re approaching it from, but I thought we said this other thing last time, that puts people on the defensive. Sure. But I’m so interested that says not only I wanna know, but I’m asking you because I care about your opinion. And people are much more likely to answer it even in tricky situations. So try to think about it with a, almost a kind of beginner’s mind. And as if you are a guest somewhere or you’re taking a tour in a museum and you’re asking how it came to be a certain way, as opposed to why questions that seem to be about what was the motive for this. Or judgment, isn’t this wrong. If we said the other thing, those why questions can be very tricky.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, I, you know, and I dislike a lot of why questions for that same reason. It puts people on the defense and you want to be, you know, depending on the tone that’s added with that why, it can change the trajectory of any conversation.

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Be Intentional With Strategic Communications

Jenn DeWall:

I like that you talk so much about being intentional with your communication as it relates to strategy. Like it is very important to be curious, but it’s also very important to choose your words wisely, to make sure because if I go back to, you know, my example. I was at this organization for almost a decade and it was a large organization, different silos, different perspectives and different, I guess, microcultures of how they handled those types of questions. And in my last position there, I was in a part where my boss was great, loved him. I could ask him anything, his boss, his boss’s boss, if you ask them anything that sounded like it was threatening their strategy– blackball– you were done. And I wish I could say that wasn’t the truth, but it was. And it’s anyone that kind of asked that, but now I’m thinking I’m like, I wonder how I asked those questions 15, 20 years ago. Like I wonder how I did because what piece of that do I own where maybe, you know, I could have showed up and not asked the why question or I could have been more curious. I was still new. I was, I would still say I was new. I should have embraced the newness and then like help me understand, like I’m just new, I’m a beginner. Could you help me understand this?

Liz Kislik:

I give you a lot of credit for looking at your place in that, Jenn because so often we don’t recognize how we come across. Yeah. On the other hand, looking back at who those people were, something I try to explain to leaders is if the people who are asking the questions were in the position to craft the strategy themselves, they wouldn’t have the questions. So it’s your job to explain how it connects. And one of the ways I would encourage people lower down in the organization to ask about it is to say, it helps me do my job better when I have the context. It juices me up to know where this fits in the big picture, because then I feel like I’m serving our customer segment or I’m accomplishing this thing in the world. And not just that I’m completing certain forms. And that’s so valuable to me. I would love to know.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that expression. Like I would love to, you know, it gets me excited. Well, and, and that is the piece for me because I, if I think of my individual style and I’m sure there are other people like me, my career success is a big part of who I am. Not saying that’s the right way, but that’s who, how I am. I’m very career and success-oriented, but I’m also a fast learner sometimes, but I’m actually a learner that needs to like see everything before I actually can understand what to do. That’s just how I process. And so when I ask questions, it’s not to undermine, but it’s more to help me understand. But yeah. Yes. Going back to it. I guarantee there are many times I did not ask that question in the right way.

Liz Kislik:

Say it in the best way possible for the listener.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Yes. And that’s OK. Like, I mean, you and I, both, we live in, we live, eat, sleep, breathe leadership. I mean, we are all perfectly imperfect, but we also just have to learn. Mistakes are gonna make, be made. We might communicate something wrong, but what are you gonna do differently? Right. I mean, I, you know, we’re humans and I love tearning, but I don’t think I ever knew what emotional intelligence was when I was 22. Like, I don’t think I knew what that was. Yeah. You know, and that’s a big part part of strategy, but going back to that, like, so I love even the language of how you can, no matter what level you’re at that even if you are or feeling like maybe I don’t wanna ask this in the wrong way. I don’t want to be perceived as blank. To use it as, Hey, I get really excited when I understand how this fits into the big picture. Like, I would love to know a little bit more about this and it is interesting. So then what would be your advice to, let’s say someone asked it the wrong way. Like I did, let’s just, just say my, I probably didn’t ask it the wrong way. What would be your advice to that leader if someone’s asking questions and in that way, and you’re like, mm, what would your advice to the leader and how to respond to that?

Ask Better Questions

Liz Kislik:

So it really depends on not just who the person is as in what’s their role in the organization, although that’s very important, but you know, there are people who play out different kinds of stylistic roles in organizations. So there might be somebody who is constantly the questioner. All right. So the first thing is getting kind of squared away in your role as a leader, that part of your job is to connect more tightly with the people who are carrying out the work. Because if they feel connected to you, they will approach the work with more vigor. You can get them to be involved in new things when you want it. And they will give you a pass from time to time as the leader, even when something goes wrong. So that’s just so valuable, just seems worth the investment to me. Right? So if somebody comes flying at me with a, well, why are you doing this in a way that sounds like, why are you doing this stupid thing? I’m making it worse than what you would’ve said.

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t know. I probably did it that way! I don’t remember.

Liz Kislik:

No, no, but that is the way people might take it. Sure. So a leader might think this person is asking me why I would do a stupid thing. Don’t they trust my judgment? Don’t they think I deserve to be here depending on who the leader is and how they’re constructed? They can get personally defensive. Yes. That’s hard. That’s why I’m suggesting all this careful language, but a good leader will think, oh, something about the communication has challenged this person. What do I want from this person in the long term? What do I want them to understand? How do I want them to feel about me and the organization? So the first thing I would say back is, oh, it sounds like you didn’t like it very much. I would acknowledge the implied slap. Because then the person coming at me actually knows they’ve been heard.

Yeah. OK. So now I’m with you. Oh, you didn’t like that much, huh? No. OK. I wanna hear more about why you don’t like it. And then the leader has to choose in this situation. Is it better to find out why they don’t like it upfront and tailor my remarks to that, or to just talk about our logic, our purpose and then look for ways to tie it back to who the employee is and what they care about? And they are both equally valid, and it helps to know the people.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love the acknowledgment and validation at the beginning of I hear you, or it sounds like from what, where I’m sitting, it, it sounds like this may not be, you know, a strategy that you, you feel comfortable with. Or tell me more about that. You know, and asking! Curiosity, I wonder if curiosity could solve so many leadership challenges. Assuming positive intent and all.

Liz Kislik:

Oh my goodness! So, Jenn, it wouldn’t solve them, but it would get you on the path. It would say we are in this together. Tell me more, one of the best phrases, another one I noticed, or I notice, I noticed that every time we have a meeting about strategy 42, you, you really seem uncomfortable and hang back in a way you don’t on any of the others. Can you tell me a little about what’s going on? I wanna know.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. You know, and it’s interesting that you say that because I do feel like leaders typically are aware of how people are responding to it. And that data is right there. But rarely, I shouldn’t say rarely, but I know that there are people that obviously know the discomfort or the discontent is there, but yet still are like, they don’t address it.

Liz Kislik:

There’s an old market research saw about not asking any question you can’t afford to have the answer to. And if leaders feel there’s nothing they can do about it, if they feel like I can’t ever make this person happy, it’s almost the reverse of what you were saying before of the lower-level person. If I can’t actively change the situation, why should I bother opening this can of worms? I’ll just avoid it. That is a common response. I’m sorry to say.

Jenn DeWall:

And sometimes it’s the necessary response too. Like it is it’s we, because it goes back to not everyone is going to like every single strategy and it doesn’t make you a bad person. It doesn’t make the leadership team, a bad person. There’s often just more opportunities going back to communication. So as we’re closing out, I’m curious, like what would be any final tips that you would have on how to make strategies stick?

Bring Purpose to the Forefront of Strategy

Liz Kislik:

I think in a way it’s, it’s like caveats or warnings. When you are in a conference room planning strategy, recognize that you have been through ideation, drafting, and revision with whatever group of people you’re doing this with. When you make your communications outward, they’re only hearing your finished product. They don’t know all the thinking that went into it, right? So it’s important to bring some of that thinking forward, not the things you rejected, but the context for why. This is where, why is important. The purpose really needs to be brought forward, not just the fact of what we’re doing. So that’s one major communication piece, making sure your network down to the desk level is sound is absolutely crucial. And being willing to answer questions and take on all comers as a way, not only to bring people closer, to understanding the value of the strategy and therefore getting them to commit to it.

But it’s like research for when you revise the strategy, what are the things about operations that you don’t know because you’re not in operations. What are the things about customer conflicts that you don’t know because they didn’t happen to your customer? We can’t know everything and be in every place. So trusting the network to be able to bring the message out and learning from the network to get the responses in about what this means to people in the company, both of those are really crucial.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I love that. I’m going to throw out a random thing. Why don’t we just always talk about strategy and change management together? Like that is the other piece of like, when I think about pitfalls it’s because we talk about a strategy, not as a change, like why can’t we do that?

Liz Kislik:

Right. Right. And sometimes even saying that it’s change management. That sounds like something we’re going to do to you.

Jenn DeWall:

Right. Oh my gosh, that’s a good perspective.

Liz Kislik:

I don’t actually talk about change management much anymore, except as a conceptual thing, because too many people feel that they’re being done to. What’s our work? What’s our purpose? Let’s talk about that together.

Where to Find Liz Kislik

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that because we know that it let’s call it iteration. If it’s not changed, like evolution is always essential to stay one step ahead of the competition to serve your customers, whatever that might be and how can we continue to iterate and how do we make sure everyone understands the why. The why we need to do this? I think I love that your emphasis on really it’s how are we showing up in the communication? How are we making sure that we’re going all the way down to the desk level, that people truly understand why this is needed and how they are needed. As it relates to our strategy. I love that Liz I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. If our audience ever wanted to get in touch with you, Liz, how would they get in contact with you?

Liz Kislik:

Oh, the best place is to go to my website where also Jenn, if they want it, there’s 10 years of weekly writing on all kinds of leadership and workplace topics. And there’s actually a free e-book there of anybody in your audience who wants it about the interpersonal aspects of conflict at work and newsletters and, oh, there’s just so much stuff there. Or, of course, on LinkedIn, they can find me on Twitter.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Perfect. I love all the resources that you just offered to our audience. Liz, thank you so much for showing up with your passion and your eloquence. I love your metaphors and stories. It was truly great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for giving your time to develop the leaders around the world on the leadership habit.

Liz Kislik:

I really enjoyed it, Jenn. Thank you.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of a leadership habit podcast with Liz Kislik. I loved the conversations, loved her metaphors and the perspective that she gave on how to approach strategy, as Liz shared at the end of our podcast, if you would like to get a free copy of her e-book , How to Resolve Interpersonal Conflicts in the Workplace, head on over to LizKislik.com. There you can find multiple resources of content, including her newsletter and blog, but don’t forget. You can also connect with Liz on LinkedIn and Twitter. And if you know someone that could benefit from hearing this podcast, share it with them. And of course, if you’ve enjoyed it, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service until next time.

 

The post How to Make Strategies Stick with Executive Coach, Liz Kislik appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Make Confident Decisions with Mo Hamzian, CEO at VEL

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Mo Hamzian to talk about how to make confident decisions. Mo is a London Business School Sloan Fellow and the co-founder and CEO of VEL, a premium utopian tech-forward work cafe, an established leader with 20 years experience in nearly all things business. Mo excels at building businesses and creating value. He has successfully exited projects with a total value of over $150 million. And now I’m going to welcome you to join the conversation where Mo and I talk about how to make confident decisions.

Meet Mo Hamzian, CEO and Sloan Fellow

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting down with Mo Hamzian to talk about how to make confident decisions and to kick off. We’re gonna talk about Mo’s origin story, which is filled with confident decisions. How do you go from being, you know, an individual to owning an organization? So Mo, I wanna turn it over for you. We’ve just shared with our audience all the great things about who you are and what you do, but let’s hear from your mouth, tell us about yourself and how you came to be.

Mo Hamzian:

Yeah, thanks very much, Jenn. Lovely to be here. I, I listen to your show and, I’m a big fan of how you see the world and come of things. So, I’m glad to be here. You know, it’s interesting. I started, I graduated in the mid-1990s, and then I started working soon after, and you kind of watched the progression of terminology by itself and syntax and context of what entrepreneurship is about in the 1990s. What decision-making was about what the world context was about, you know, over the last sort of 30 years and how I’ve changed over time? It’s quite staggering, you know, you go through these kinds of seven-year cycles of shedding your skin and then renewing yourself with your new values, new systems. So I preface that because the current me <laugh>, in 2022 is far different to me 20 years ago.

And, all my aspirations are different. How I see the world is different. To some extent, my value systems are, have evolved. Maybe the core engine is still the same that, you know, what you expect and what you want from yourself and that level of drive or some things you look for in your rudder. But all in all, I think I’ve, you know, evolved into someone that really wants to solve problems. And that’s been a common denominator in my life. And sometimes, that is transient. And sometimes that’s more long-term, depending on what business you get involved with. So at the moment, I see that the hybrid workforce has changed a lot, and we are. I’m sure we’ll talk about it. We’re bringing a really cool product to market there.

But— walking backward— I moved to, to us in 2017. And let me tell you something, immigrating to countries is an imperfect decision, it’s very difficult. One to make and sometimes very tough to get. Right. But my family and I did it and, retrospectively, it was a good decision. And before that, I was pretty much in Europe, and I lived, my base was in London, and I traveled to different continents for work predominantly in real estate and F and B. but having come to the US, I’ve, I’ve noticed several differences between the US and maybe Europe and UK. And I would like to talk about some of those differences.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Let’s talk about it. Let, this is our learning opportunity. I want to hear them.

Mo Hamzian:

So let’s put it in binary and broad-brush generalization here, you know, and my kind of UK counterparts, my <inaudible> about this slightly, but, you know, the UK and Europe are much more what established in terms of mindset and much more conservative and far more risk-averse. And to some extent, much more liberal in their thinking. Not always, but certainly in commerce. So when it comes to decision-making, the starting position is often “no,” <laugh> until proven, right? Yeah. So if it was binary, it’d be zero, not a one until proven, right. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing in some respects- science, for instance, that’s a very good thing or medicine, that’s a very good thing, but in commerce, sometimes you need to make decisions slightly faster. In the US today, I think that it’s not just the population of the US that supports it as the single largest global market. It’s also the mindset, the attitude of the US. Think in the US today, again, generally speaking, of course, that the mindset is the other way around and everything is “Yes,” it is possible until proven no. So that little small detail in how you see the world can collectively make an enormous difference in your own personal manifesto, but also the countries.

What are the Barriers to Making Confident Decisions?

Jenn DeWall:

So essentially, it’s either you have to prove it to me, or I believe that it’s possible. You know, I don’t have to prove like something else needs to prove that it can work, or I can prove that it can work. Do you know? And I think that is a fundamental difference in terms of how even maybe leaders make decisions and how they might see themselves. I love that you called out that difference in maybe conservative approaches to decision-making because we’re talking about decision-making to our audience. Many people are struggling with how do you know whether or not you’re making the right decision? What information do you need to rely on? Or how do you make a decision when you don’t have enough information and even thinking? I love that where you’re going. What is your mindset around decision-making? Mo, what do you think are the barriers that people run into when they’re trying to make good decisions?

Mo Hamzian:

Well, often, decision-making, like many other things, is a muscle. Unfortunately, the education system doesn’t weave that into the ecosystem of the first 18 years of your life to actually teach you how to make decisions how to analyze. At what point do you stop analyzing, or at what point do you pull the trigger. What could outcomes look like? How do you change from outcomes? At what point do you, do you relinquish your decision and walk away from whatever you decided, but underlying all of that, I think human beings, you know, evolution has meant we have to have a certain amount of fear in us. You know, everyone wants to walk away from danger, and our ancestors and predecessors had some real dangers they had to get away from. So, because we are afraid, we are also afraid of making a bad decision and committing to it.

So that’s, to some extent, loosely speaking, in terms of carnal terms, fear gets in the way of, of good decision-making. Doubt and self-confidence make for bad decision-making, but, you know, being alone, which is one of the things by alone, I mean, either a very small team or not being open enough with people around you to involve them in that decision-making. And again, we can talk about that. And, and in, in small organizations, you see that a lot, whereby people are so much in the trenches, traveling at such high speed, that they don’t bring the Periscope up all the time to be able to make better decisions for six months, eight months, twelve months down the line. And they haven’t supported themselves with the right people around them to help them be accountable for some of those decisions.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. So do you feel like a piece of that is someone’s confidence to ask for help to make decisions? Like, is that a piece of it because you talk about fear, it’s the fear of, you know, maybe we can avoid making the decision because we don’t wanna get it wrong. I think every listener can probably relate to that, that none of us want to make the wrong decision. Of course, we want to make the right one, but then what are we doing to help ourselves actually make that right choice? Then I feel like we do, we suffer in silence, and we don’t maybe rely on or reach out for and find additional people that could potentially help us solve our problem or make that decision.

Mo Hamzian:

I agree. And, you know, decision-making can become micro whereby, you know, you can go through a series of seven or eight gates, eventually, micro-gates to eventually arrive at the ending decision, whatever that is. You, you want to buy a new fridge for instance, right. I mean, and that’s maybe a smaller decision, although it has a high cost to it. But having good information is important, and good data is important, but to what extent do you rely on its accuracy? Now, if you’re going into, for instance, in my business, you go into a 10-year lease whereby we will talk about this again, how quickly can you get out of that decision? What switching costs can look like. You may want to frontload some of that decision-making with other people around you and rely on better data than if you would, for instance, make a softer decision.

So it depends on what kind of a decision you’re trying to make and what the consequences are, and to what. How much domain experience do you or do you not have? And having a lot of domain experience is amazing, but it also means the curse of the incumbent. You have a lot of blind spots. Because you may not have moved on with sign up the times, whether it’s because of technology or geo-market or whatever it is, then you think, you know, but in fact, you don’t. But because it is what you do, you think you know, and you don’t support yourself with the right kind of periphery mirrors if you see what I mean.

What is VEL?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it just brings up the fact that we also think that we know more than what we do and we are. We sometimes rely on that bad data instead of actually taking the time to maybe research or get a counterpoint or ask someone else their perspective. Could you at a high level talk about, because I think this will be helpful for our audience to know the type of business that you run because you were, you know, for lack of a better way to describe it, you wear a lot of hats. You are an entrepreneur. You are a CEO. I mean, how did, can you tell a little bit to our audience about what you do. Because you’re making decisions that are going to impact the long-term success of your organization, whether that’s the, you know, the rent that you’re going to pay for lease, but then also determining what next, where do we go? So if you could just share a little bit about who you are in your organization.

Mo Hamzian:

Well, I’m very lucky to be leading a really fast-growing company. We are, you know, tongue in cheek. If I met you and all your audience in a very large elevator, and you know, you guys ask what we do. We say we’re bringing the love child of Starbucks and WeWork to market. We believe the hybrid workplace has changed how we work and how we commute and where we work. And we think the coffee shop is one of those go-to places where millions of people around the world spend billions of dollars going to coffee shops to do some work five to eight hours a week. And coffee shops, to some extent, complement your home and your office. But coffee shops just haven’t been reinvented fast enough to create that micro-transactional, really good experience. So we said, you know, if GoPro was making a coffee shop, is Google was making a coffee shop.

Mo Hamzian:

What would it look like? What would the Red Bull version of a coffee shop look like? This extreme environment is built up from the ground up, where it takes into account lots of different parameters. For instance, if you’re lefthanded, what does it mean for your experience, and what does hygiene mean and lighting mean and air quality and privacy and acoustics and psychological safety. What did those mean in a coffee shop setting, and why can’t everyone benefit from that? And not just the elite who work at these giant corporations, which, I’m in love with that kind of building. So kind of democratizing that slightly at a very kind of easy price point. You can walk into us, spend $10 and experience that for an hour. So we’ve grown leaps and bound. We started with me. I found my co-founder and COO terrific guy named Jack two months into a month and a half off into my campaign.

Mo Hamzian:

We’re now, you know,10 advisors, 65 investors building a large team, building multiple locations at the same time. And looking, looking at really mouthwatering outcomes for ourselves of having 50 or a hundred of these in the next couple of years, which, which means with that level of scale, walking away from what we do, but actually how we do it. Lots of decisions are being made. And some of those are short-term, but some of them have a major impact long term getting them right is important. But knowing how to walk away from the ones that are less good is also important.

What Framework Do You Use to Make Confident Decisions?

Jenn DeWall:

Wait, so how do you do that? Because you are, as an entrepreneur, you see opportunity, right? Isn’t that the mindset of an entrepreneur? How can we grow the business? How can we potentially scale? So question, how do you prioritize what to do first? Because I think that’s a decision that’s sometimes really difficult is, how do I prioritize what is important, especially when there are so many great solutions? How do you prioritize that? Or what do you do to help yourself make a more informed decision?

Mo Hamzian:

Well, we have a framework, and it’s not, I mean, we’ve adopted it. We haven’t come up with it. We have two frameworks actually that really help us one. We have something called the OKR, objective and key result, major companies around the world, kinda immaterial of, of which vertical they’re in, whether they’re established or newer companies- use that. This means whatever we are trying to do, there has to be an objective to do with it. And we have to be able to measure it at the end of it to have some sort of key result. We connect that to time and money, which means we then have monthly OKRs, which say this month, the team has to accomplish these goals associated with these goals are these key results. And the direct overview idea. And we spend four hours at the end of a month inventing what next month could look like. And we do it with quarter and fiscally at the same time.

So that is a real kind of true north for us from there. We know how to allocate resources of time and money and, and, time of people. And then, we identify gaps. So the first and foremost is which direction you’re running. I mean, jumping into the weeds to make decisions is, is much harder, but if you know which direction you’re trying to run, it’s much better to then build branches from there. So we start from the top and build down into the permit. The second framework we use is something called the RACI, which is this idea that says good decision-making has to have some functions in it. There has to be someone responsible in that decision-making process. It could be more than one person. There has to be someone accountable, and it can only be one person accountable. The buck has to stop with that person. She or he is ultimately responsible for that decision. Then there is someone

Jenn DeWall:

Can I ask you something quickly, Mo? Sorry to interrupt you. Because I think sometimes people can be reluctant to either feel like, well, who should I make that way? Or who should I give that responsibility to? How do you determine, because I know that you likely have a lot of things going, how do you empower that autonomy to say the buck stops with you? You are the person because there’s a level of confidence that you need that individual to have to be accountable. So how do you select that person? Or how do you go about determining that?

Mo Hamzian:

The person who’s ultimately responsible, which is slightly different -the nuances of responsible and accountable are slightly different. [The responsible person] is a domain expert. They may be a, you know, social media guru, and their responsibility is to deliver certain results, manage the campaign, et cetera. But then the CMO who sits above them may be accountable for that because the CMO she’s managing bigger dependencies. She’s managing TV campaigns, different rollouts, customer acquisition strategies. In comparison, the social media manager who is the R in that campaign is not entirely aware of all the other spinning plates. So there could be the same two people in the department, but they just have different information flowing functions. So I think their main expertise is, is really important in, in the R and the person who’s ultimately accountable is someone who’s a little bit more senior who has been more of a periphery vision into other departments that have an impact on it.

But then within that RACI, which gets even more interesting as someone who’s supporting a decision, someone who’s consulting on the decision and someone who’s being informed of the decision. For instance, if you have a CFO, she or he may be informed of the cost bearing of this decision, but it’s a one-way piece of traffic where they just need to hear the information, and you’re not expecting any traffic back from them to make a good decision. So, if your audience hasn’t come across, it’s helped us enormously to be able to scale really, really fast and not trip over ourselves bump into each other. Because in, when you’re trying to scale fast, the function becomes really, really important. And it’s within a function that decisions are made. And believe it or not, I fell off my seat when I came across this statistic, we– an average human being makes 14 million decisions a year- conscious decisions. So whether I should have a cup of tea or a cup of coffee is a conscious decision.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah.

Mo Hamzian:

So if you’re making 14 million decisions and let’s say you’re awake, you know, you’re at work for half of those decisions, you take about seven or eight million decisions at work every year. Even if each decision had a hundredth of a penny cost to it, you know, a bad decision can cost you and your organization a lot of money. So investing in good decision-making, and there’s definitely an algorithm and science to it is really important.

What Tools Help You Make Confident Decisions?

Jenn DeWall:

How do you invest in good decision-making?

Mo Hamzian:

Education training, creating an environment where people are psychologically safe, where you can make errors and volunteer that information. If you are in an environment where you are afraid to own up or admit or even call it wrong, you have some rigidity there that makes it difficult. Technology is incredible to be able to bring, to shine a light on it and bring some transparency into it. There are some algorithms out there on set plays at the same time, what you should do in certain situations. For instance, when you’re recruiting or when you’re making certain decisions that are repetitive. Should you interview 10 candidates, or should you stop at three? There are some statistics behind it that will help you determine that. And finally, it’s confirmation biases in your own heuristics to be able to make sure that you can get it out the way of a good decision. and sometimes that’s very hard to do,

Jenn DeWall:

Right? Absolutely. I am reading. And I said this, I think probably on a prior podcast, but I’m reading Adam Grant’s book that he wrote and released in 2021, Think Again. And I think, you know, it was very thought-provoking in the sense of how much confirmation bias do I actually have, because again, I actually think, because I’m aware of these terms, that I’m also aware of my bias, and then I’m actually less aware than I want to be. Right. Like, I wish that I could, but confirmation bias. I mean, we know like how do you overcome confirmation bias? Because I know I want to be right sometimes. So it feels good. Right? You get that little endorphin that says I made the right thing, or your ego is just wanting that validation. How do you overcome confirmation bias for yourself personally?

Mo Hamzian:

Well, it’s really tough because the idea of a bias is that it’s something of a blind spot inherently, which means it’s you can’t see it if it was. If you could see it, it wouldn’t be blind to you. Therefore having a good team is important. And by that, I mean a good organizational structure. You could have a good team, but just wrongly set up. So organizational structures become whether you’re flat, a hierarchy, or functional, whatever it is, I think that needs to be identified for you and your team. And our team is very small. So you can just be a couple of people, but still, you can have that structure in place. And an advisory board is incredible. Believe it or not, an advisory board initially, when you’re very small, very young- can be imaginary. It can come from books. You can read a biography of someone that you admire and what they’ve done in this life and get to know them and say, what would they tell me in that environment?

That is, to some extent, a measure of accountability, even there. But as you get more, you know, you get larger and maybe older, or you build a business around an organization having an advisory board. And we have, we have six advisors with whom we meet about 16 hours a month on all. And it’s our time to say, can you help us put our head around the corner? What are we not seeing here? Stress test our decisions. And are we making the right call? Are we too committed to this? That our nose is too close to it, that we don’t see, you know, the woods from the trees and those things are about intention. It’s about wanting not to do it, and hopefully, you won’t do it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. You’ve got that you bring just people to examine the problem. Did we pick the right solution? And you talked about a lot of key things within that, you know, actually having the accountability around the milestones, the check-in points, are we getting it right? Do we need to change or iterate? How do we miss the mark? I think that’s actually where a lot of people go wrong in that decision-making process is it’s more of that set and forget. They see the next big idea. They have, you know, assigned different people, probably not just one person to be accountable to it, but they’ve assigned multiple people. And then once it gets to the execution, they say, well, we implemented to check that box, onto the next, and then there’s no follow up on it. I’m curious. How like is that’s something that you do for yourself in advance? You’ll set this curriculum, or I guess, journey, if you will, that says, you know, we’re going to release and make this decision. When do you check in on it again? Or how do you build in those check-in points? Because I think that really is what people struggle with, or they just get so excited about the idea that they don’t think about the importance of that.

Mo Hamzian:

I agree. I agree. I come from a school of thought, that kind of very disciplined that says ideas are cheap and it’s about execution unless you’re able to deliver on it. It can be meaningless, actually. So, and we are also very lucky at VEL. We come from- we are remote-first, and we come from an environment that had to be remote-first, just pure necessity because we grew up and we innovated, and we became effective during COVID, which meant we had to be remote-first. With that comes— and I’ll come to question— but with that comes some responsibility of creating a digital environment whereby you’re still highly connected. These amazing companies like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, these people lived together for years on end, creating the product, creating these companies, creating culture, creating value.

It’s much harder to do that remotely when you’re not together initially. Therefore you have to overcompensate using technology. And we have done that through the adoption of Slack, Miro, Monday, Teamflow. The list goes on for us, and each one has a different offering for us. So when it comes to a decision-making value chain or a decision-making trail, we have, again, the RACI becomes involved, whomever they are within that decision-making chain. And we have touchpoints. And because we don’t have an office, we have tried to create data rooms. If you imagine a real physical room, a live data room, which says, if Mo wants to walk into this room at 2:00 AM, the information should be live, should be current so Mo can add value, extract what he needs, get on with what he has to do, and then the same for everyone else. So we can create this environment where I can work at 2:00 AM if I want to, and I can work remotely, but there is a certain responsibility from the team in that. It takes, I’m getting used to. But if you can, if you can, if you can get it right, it can help you move much faster.

Jenn DeWall:

On-demand data rooms that actually contain real-time information. Right? Think about how happy, I mean, if I think, and I was maybe a new employee, and I was maybe to some of the meetings, how nice would it be to have a centralized place where I could observe the problem, understand the problem, understand even how I fit with the problem? I think that’s such an interesting concept, and I’ve never heard of data rooms before, but I love that from where I sit in, the problems that I hear from leaders when we teach through Crestcom’s programs just what a great place to make sure that we’re keeping communication open!

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What Harms Our Ability to Make Good Decisions?

Jenn DeWall:

I wanna bring it back down to, you know, your kind of recommendations or how you start with making that confident decision. And I know that one of the first things that you said is thinking about what is the outcome that you want to get. And we also talked about the importance of either having strategic partners or getting a different point of view to make sure that we can overcome some of those barriers. But once we figure out what decision, how do we then make it? How do we then make the decision? Because I think that’s where the, even though we might know at a high level, that the change is needed, the decisions needed. I think then there are a few things that can really inhibit us from making the decision. Yeah. I mean, we talked about fear earlier, but one might be, and this is what we had talked about earlier. What does it mean to be 70% okay with the decision and not know the other 30%, or do you have any tips on how you say I have limited data? How do I make this decision?

Mo Hamzian:

I love that point. So, so intelligent of you to bring it up. I think you can make quick decisions or long kinds of longer extracted decisions. But if you need access to information, I think it’s about assimilating information really, really fast. It means understanding what it means, being coherent with it. Even if there are gaps there, knowing that there are gaps, that’s good enough. Then, being in an evaluation phase. And we talked about this– decision-making has a large amount of fatigue with it, which can reduce willpower and can create an amount of stress, whether it’s for the individual or for the team. So it’s much easier to kind of sit in a holding pattern of evaluation, which means a non-attachment to the outcome. I’m purely evaluating the information at hand, and we haven’t discharged a decision. We could go either A, B or C.

Mo Hamzian:

We’re not quite sure yet. And actually protecting that space, even if it’s for 15 minutes, then once you’ve done that, the decision-makers at that point may not be the people who’ve been assimilating, the information, the decision-makers at that point, can’t in a short, sharp, effective way, actually make that decision. And it’s okay to make a decision on 70%, 80% sometimes actually more often than not, particularly in startup territory, and it is okay to make that. So as long as, you know, the switching costs the consequences and what it means to get out of it or change the route. But sometimes, knowing the error is, is also important. Once you’ve calculated the risk and the downside, you may be able to get much more comfortable with it. Talking about decision fatigue. I think that’s real. It does, it’s counterintuitive to think about it, but the more time you spend contemplating decisions, it does get harder to make it. Sugar levels drop, willpower drops, ability to resist temptations to confirmation biases drops. I mean, some of these are a marketer’s dream, you know, of getting us to buy something, but they’re also real within a team. What time of day you make the decision is important. Are you, you know, really simple stuff, are you hungry? Are you tired? Are you not? Sometimes these can’t be avoided. Of course. But the last thing you wanna do is to be in an eight-hour decision-making session. That does not exist. It’s not good for business.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and I like that you bring up the important piece because again, we often think about it, and you probably have, we’ll have a much more high-level way to describe it, but we often, I think, just make decisions and are just like indifferent to them. We don’t think about what’s going on. We don’t think about what’s going to happen. We don’t think about it, is it the right decision? Is it not? So Mo many of us have been conditioned to look at like strategy decision-making through this lens of what’s best for the company. What do we need to consider? What’s the data that we have. And I do think, and it’s what you just called out a misstep that we, we don’t even realize that we’ll play into whether or not we make a great decision is our, is how we’re feeling physically.

It is. Are we hungry? It is. Are we tired? I mean, we talk about that at a high level. I think many people know your health determines it, but right here, you just explained why your health is so important as it relates to overcoming decision or initiative fatigue, like being able to make sure that you are set up for success. You have enough sleep to be able to look at a problem objectively, or with a fresh set of eyes, you have eaten. So you don’t have any other annoying, maybe pings that could detract from your ability to focus. I just think that’s a really important point that you just made that not a lot of people even consider. It might just be, oh, I don’t have the information or, oh, they’re doing too much. And you don’t realize, but are you showing up as your best self right now? I just like that you bring that point up because I don’t think people often think about that innately as it relates to decision-making.

Mo Hamzian:

No, I agree. And you know, I think decision-making is much more of a sprint than it is a long-distance run. You know, if you, if you know what I mean, I think if you want to, if you, if you want to evaluate something, you can go on for days and weeks in, even months evaluating various scenarios and planning for it and knowing what risks are associated within outcomes, what gaps are there managing and allocating resources to it. But ultimately, it has to be sharp and effective. And basing that- and there are case studies out there that I think there is one with, with sort of Israeli judges that measured the consistency of the decision-making on verdicts before and after lunch. And they found why there were inconsistencies. They were making different decisions because of their sugar levels. So it is real of your physiological self; psychological self will have an effect on what kind of a decision you make.

How do We Evaluate our Decisions?

Jenn DeWall:

Wow. I actually need to go and find and do more research on that because that is incredibly interesting to know that their accuracy of decision-making could have been impacted by the time of day that they made that decision. And by the physiological, I guess, feeling that they had or their physical feeling that they had at the moment. I mean, this is why this is important to everyone. I know that evaluation is a piece. How do you evaluate whether or not you hit the mark? Are there any tips that you think of what you look for to determine are getting it right?

Mo Hamzian:

Well, evaluation pre before the fact and after the fact is slightly different. After the fact you have data, you can measure it, and you ought to measure it. Otherwise, it’s not really a key result. and it shouldn’t be soft, intangible ideas of measuring. It should be clear and effective because if you’ve set good goals for the outcome, then you should be able to measure them. But you also have to have enough time have gone by, and I know I’m being abstract because the situations are so different. Sure. But the principles are the same. You have to have enough time have to have gone by for you to know the decision yielded results or not. Right? Let’s say you’ve gone into a lease. You’ve opened your doors, and you’re three months in, and you’re not hitting your marks on revenue yield, et cetera.

Then you know, you, you can’t make a U-turn. It’s far too early. So giving enough time to go by in that scenario is important. But coming back to this idea of decision-making within an organization, whether how you measure it or how you evaluate it, I think this degree of culture. Then you need to bring in what do you stand for and what kind of environment do you want to create as micro teams, larger organizations about decision-making. How important is it to be right? How it is important to be not always right but be good at making decisions fast at making decisions. How fast do you want to travel? Some industries can’t afford mistakes. They move very slowly. And rightly so. But in some businesses, it’s much more important to move fast and be ahead of the competition. Hence this culture and philosophy of minimal viable product, minimal viable X. So, there are minimal viable decisions that you can make that will get you from one gate to the next gate. And then let’s see where we get up, and each gate and these are metaphoric ideas. Each gate can have this association of how much money do I need to put in? How much manpower do I need to now put in? Because it’s been validated. Now we need to get to the next process.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you’re talking about it. Even from that financial piece, what do we need to do with objectives? I think sometimes that decision there might be a high-level decision that’s made at the executive level. And then it trickles down through the organization through, you know, smaller decision-making. But then people are still, you know, a little confused, what do I do? How do I do it? And I think that you just answered, you know, just the importance of why you need to plan at every single level. You need to see the problem see how it relates to it. Do you have capacity? And I think sometimes people might hear the objective coming from up top, and then they look at their teams, and then they may not have the capacity, but then they still might make the decision to go forward. And is it really going to be successful? Or how much time as you talked about thinking about time, we need time. How much time will you allow, given the resource constraints that you have to determine to make it right?

I think a lot of people at the emerging leadership level, the mid-level leader, may not be exposed to using this type of data to make the decision. It still might be well. This is what, you know, the strategic initiative is. So let’s just go forth and implement, instead of really then thinking about it as another opportunity to strategize and make a great decision for the execution. I’m not sure if you see that where people feel, and maybe it comes back to our earlier conversation about the importance of having responsibility and accountability because if it’s not there, then that might be one of the primary reasons. We’re not even doing the diligence to think about how we can impact the success of this decision by planning.

Mo Hamzian:

I agree. There definitely should be a decision culture, domain fit for a good decision to come. I like some of the points you mentioned and raise this idea or this argument of how much of the decision can be delegated. I mean, look, look what automation robotics algorithms are doing in lots of industries. How much, how much decision, how many fewer decisions does a pilot have to make or a driver has to make today than 25 years ago? I think slowly we are gonna see that level of disruption in the boardroom. Whereby you can make fast, reliable, good decisions, even data visualization and business intelligence software that previously were reserved for conglomerates today. The startup can get it. There is an aggregation of data whereby you can say, I, I have the data, and it’s only pointing this way. And that level of transparency or visualization of being able to slice and dice is only going to get better. It might even get so good that it can suggest or recommend a decision for you, which means we can really focus on creativity, larger decisions, which are really, really complex, and the way we work might change!

Overcoming the Fear of Making the Wrong Decision

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s close the worst possible outcome that people think about when, or as it relates to decision-making. Well, Mo, what happens if I make a mistake? What happens if I get it wrong? What advice do you have for people as it relates to learning from your mistakes? Because I think we go into it. We’re afraid we don’t wanna make a mistake. And then, when it happens, it can feed into that narrative. Look, you did it, you did it wrong and then make us more risk-averse in the future. So how do you help people learn from their mistakes?

Mo Hamzian:

Well, I’m no different, actually. I’m no different. It’s, it’s a human condition. Micro success is important. Therefore going through these gates and validating it in smaller chunks becomes easier because then you can follow the maps of how you got there. And it doesn’t shatter your confidence because you could have done six things, right? But the final thing is just not, and, and you, you’re mitigating risk somehow because you might have never ended up at the end if you’ve broken down the process a little bit more.

Jenn DeWall:

But micro successes, I love that reframing it. This is a micro success. We now have new data that says whether we’re getting it right or whether we’re getting it wrong, and that can build that confidence. It’s a reframe. I love that.

Mo Hamzian:

And, and getting, getting comfortable with errors is just one of the things that everyone needs to get better at as an organization. Whether, whether you call it a failure, we call it errors rather than a failure because everyone makes errors. Even if you made an error, you might not have failed. So culturally, we try to say it’s okay to do that, But ultimately there are consequences when you get it wrong, and sometimes you just have to be okay with those consequences. But if you move together as a team and you’re not solo in an ivory tower, everyone is caught off guard by surprise. And you discuss it, you get it wrong, and often you’re getting it wrong together. <laugh> So you don’t wanna be alone in it. That level of camaraderie is really unifying, and often, often teams come out. They may have got it wrong systematically for months at a time, but because they persevere, they’re a very good team. They’re putting everything in place correctly. They’ll eventually succeed and get it right and solve the problem.

Where to Find Mo Hamzian

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. So there’s a level of vulnerability and acceptance. I like your reframe calling it in error, and this is going to happen. But then also another piece that I heard you say is then we were it to the team, and we have dialogue. And then we, it allows us to examine, Hey, what part did we maybe, I guess mis-think or not mis-think that’s not a phrase, but did we not think about correctly? And what are we going to do to course-correct? How can we continue to grow together? I love that. Maybe it’s because I’m obsessed with building connections and belonging. But when I know that people feel a sense of belonging and support, we work together better. Even if we are making errors or mistakes or failures. And, you know, again, you brought up another point of the important piece of the planning process with every single decision. What are the possible or potential consequences that can happen? And are you okay with them? Or can you weather that, if that occurs? Mo, I have loved our conversation today. I think you hit on so many great points. You are so highly intelligent and just brought a lot of different perspectives on how we can approach them and how we can be more resilient and more confident decision-makers, Mo, how do people get in touch with you? How can they connect and get to know more about VEL?

Mo Hamzian:

Well, I really enjoy connecting with people on LinkedIn, so I’m sure it’ll be your show notes. Please find me there. Vel, you can find us at myvel.com. And we are all social media channels, and our handle is @workatvel. I’m sure you put in the show notes. I enjoy meeting new people discussing new problems. So feel free to find me.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, if you’ve got a decision that you’re making, maybe they can reach out and connect with you and see What Mo would do! Mo, thank you so much for giving us or giving us your time, which we know is an important resource, but your expertise your passion to helping people. I greatly appreciate it. I look forward to the day that Vel comes to Denver too. So one day, it’s gonna come to Denver. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. It was great to have you on the show.

Mo Hamzian:

Thanks, Jenn. Well done.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for joining us on this week’s episode, The Leadership Habit podcast with Mo Hamzian. If you enjoyed today’s podcast, or better yet, if you know someone that could benefit from this conversation about how to make confident decisions, share this episode with them; if you want to connect with Mo, feel free to head on over to MyVel.com. You can find the link in our show notes. Also, connect with them on LinkedIn and feel free to reach out, to ask him for his insight on how to approach your challenges. And, of course, if you enjoy this episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

 

The post How to Make Confident Decisions with Mo Hamzian, CEO at VEL appeared first on Crestcom International.

How Organizations Can Get DEIB Right with Martine Kalaw, Elevation Strategist

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Martine Kalaw to talk about how organizations can get DEIB right? Martine is a DEI top leader and learning and development expert who understands the challenges that human resources executives have in driving DE&I in the workplace. Her book, The ABCs of Diversity, A Manager’s Guide to Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in the New Workplace, makes DEI accessible to everyone in the workplace, including managers. Martine knows that H.R. and middle managers are the core groups that can drive DE&I since they influence an organization’s makeup. So join our conversation as Martine, and I talk about how you can do DEIB right!

Meet Martine Kalaw—Author, Speaker and Elevation Strategist

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Martine Kalaw, and we are talking about, oh gosh, probably a conversation that I wish everyone could hear right now, how to do diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging- DEIB for short- right. Because so many organizations right now maybe are taking approaches that aren’t allowing people to see the importance of how and why we need to bring DEIB into the workplace. But before we get into our conversation, Martine, thank you so much for being here. Could you just go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, how you came to be, how you came to be interested in this topic?

Martine Kalaw:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Jenn. I’ll start off with. I was born in Zambia. My family is from the Democratic Republic of the Congo- formerly Zaire. I came to the U.S. when I was four years old. And I share that story because a few years later after my mother and stepfather died, I was orphaned, and I became undocumented and stateless. So I didn’t have a country to go back home to. In the process of, you know, figuring out and navigating that journey of pretty much not having a family, not having a country, not having a home. I was exposed to so many different communities. Whether it was, I put myself through boarding school, right? Found or had a benefactor who was able to pay my way through boarding school. So I went to a predominantly white Southern boarding school in Charlottesville, Virginia.

So that was one community that I was exposed to. And I learned to navigate that. And even within that boarding school, within that prep school, the day students were from Charlottesville, they were Southern, of course. And they were very affluent. The dorm students were predominantly South Korean. And so that was another subculture or community. I went in, in middle school, I went to a predominantly African American middle school and then went to college. So I was exposed to so many different communities, including the undocumented community and stateless community. And that really shaped this belief that you know, I could actually be the interpreter of different communities, and I have like this sort of privilege where I could widen my lens because I was exposed to so many different communities and understand their perspectives, the questions they had the lack of clarity they might have about a different community.

And so, for me, that just gave me an opportunity to be an interpreter. And in, in other words, a bridge-builder, right. And I also understood very early on that when you’re part of a marginalized community, it’s easy to feel a loss of dignity, right? Based on how others treat you and really what you want is not charity. What you want is for someone to invest in you to see the value that you can bring. And so this all sort of encapsulates into the whole conversation around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, because that’s really what it is. It’s about being an interpreter across different lines, different communities, different conversations, and being able to build those bridges. Right. And reminding anyone who has more opportunity, more access, more privilege that they get you right in the space of DEIB, they get to invest right in others. Right. So that way, they can build stronger communities. And I just apply that to the workforce.

Get DEIB Right – Know The Difference Between Belonging and Fitting In

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. I love that it’s giving voice, you know, too, and within a workplace, it could be the marginalized groups. It could be the voices that are never listened to. And I love what you’re doing in the work that you’re doing because we obviously need it more than ever. But, you know, one of the things that it, we were talking about at Crestcom last week was even to understand what it might be like. And I’m curious if you have any thoughts on this, and you may or may not, but we were talking about the difference between fitting in versus belonging. Like, and I think that you know, in the workplace, how we were looking at it, as people don’t even realize that so many workplaces are designed to expect you to fit in that’s right. Instead of creating a place and fitting in might be, you know, looking at a problem in a certain way, dressing the same way. It could be a variety of things, but I’m curious, like how do you kind of address that? Or how do you see the difference between belonging and fitting in?

Martine Kalaw:

Oh, that’s such a great question because I think that it’s the distinction between assimilation and actually assimilation versus multiculturalism, right? So you can be part of an organization. I always contextualize it in the space of organizations, but you can be part of an organization where, you know, there are all these different regions that the organization you know has offices across the globe. So there fitting in, or a simulation looks like, Hey, let’s model, let’s have everyone acclimate to one type of region. Right. And oftentimes what I see with some organizations that are U.S. Based and have maybe a headquarter headquarters in us, somewhere in the U.S., and then they have offices somewhere, you know, in, in, in different locations in Europe, there’s this sort of expectation for everyone to sort of assimilating to the American culture. I don’t know that everyone realizes it, but that usually happens. Right. So that’s sort of like fitting in and belonging looks like multiculturalism. It looks like, Hey, okay, we’ve got offices in all these different locations. Let’s figure out a way to fuse. Right. And create one culture. And one culture looks like a mix of all these different subcultures together, coming together. And then we form our organization. So I think that it’s a lot harder to do that, right. To get to a place of true multiculturalism, where everyone feels that sense of belonging versus that assimilation and fitting in.

Why Don’t Organizations Get DEIB Right?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Thank you so much for answering that. I was just so curious. Because I think people don’t realize the difference and what that can look like sometimes in an organization, let’s dive into it. Our topic is all about how to get DEIB— diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging– right. How to get it right. So we have to start out if we’re gonna talk about how to do it right. Where do organizations get it wrong? Or where do organizations and leaders today get this wrong?

Martine Kalaw:

Yeah. Jenn, I mean, this is controversial because some people might you know, historically the way that organizations respond to DEIB is, Hey, we’ve gotta do this because it’s the right thing to do. Right. We’ve gotta, it’s the right thing to do. So we have to respond to it. And oftentimes, that can come across as performative, and then there’s only so much. And so when, when it’s the right thing to do, it’s sort of bucketed in the space of charity. Right. And let me ask you, we all, in our, in our own personal lives, we have various charities, you know, that we’re connected to. Right. But you know, when push comes to shove or when, right. But when we’re, when we’re under, when we have constraints, you know, where do, does our charity in terms of priority? Where does it fall? Right.

So we’ve gotta think about it within that context. So when organizations see it as the right thing to do, it seems like charity, right. It’s presented as a charity, and it’s not a high priority. So that’s where I believe organizations do it wrong. I believe that DEIB needs to be introduced into the organization, or even if it already was introduced as a charity, it needs to be reshaped framed as a business structure, just like anything else. Right. So when we think about it,  we think about security, right? Security initiatives in the workplace, data security, all of that, nobody says, oh, it’s the right thing to do. So we’ve gotta do it. No, the way that we frame things like security in our organization. Our company can’t function without security because… Right. And then, we start to create strategies around security. We look at the metrics. We look at all of that.

And so this is where I feel like one of the one, one way in which organizations do it wrong is they’re not looking at DEIB as a business function or a business imperative. Secondly, it’s usually sort of dumped on H.R. and on one person, right? And the thing is human resources historically. And generally, I’m generalizing here, but we’re always, and I’ve sat in an or human resources capacity for many years, you know, in my career. But we’re always struggling to secure a seat at the table already, just in terms of, you know, the function of human resources. So now this, this, this concept of the right thing to do this charity initiative is now dumped on human resources. And now they’ve gotta like add this to their workload. They’re not necessarily equipped to do this on their own. They don’t even necessarily have the expertise, and now they’ve gotta figure this out.

So it can feel very burdensome for human resources, right. And then they’re not given the resources to actually do, do anything because it’s seen as a charity. So there aren’t any, there aren’t any resources that are provided. So, you know what, it’s, they’re set up. We, as human resources professionals, are set up to kind of fail in this space of DEIB. So that’s the second thing that organizations do wrong. The third is when human resources, you know, owns, takes on, you know, ownership of DEIB. One of the things that we don’t necessarily we’re not equipped to do is identify what’s the return on investment. Why is this valuable? Quantify it just like we would for anything else, right. For security, if we’re building out security programs and the organization’s marketing sales, why is this, how is this going to affect the bottom line?

And that’s a hard question to pose. And I think that organizations haven’t been given permission to see DEIB, in that, you know, in that lens or in that respect, because some people feel like it cheapens it, right. Because DEIB it’s so personal to many of us, it takes on a stronger meaning, but at the end of the day, what I always, you know, my, my is okay, so I understand it’s the right thing to do. I understand that there’s a whole emotional component. And there are people that are, you know, individuals from marginalized communities who have struggled in the workplace because of, you know, the lack of DEIB, right. But this approach that we’re taking for it be to be the right thing to do, how is it working for us? Right? Because we’ve been, we’ve been doing this for the last couple of decades. How far have we gotten? We need a new approach, a different approach and an approach that will allow all stakeholders to actually be involved in the conversation. And so that common language within an organization is revenue. It’s the bottom line start there. And then we can work, work our way back backward and really, you know, discuss the soft skills and the emotional, you know, the E.Q. component of DEIB as well.

Looking at DEIB as a Continuum

Jenn DeWall:

And I think that’s a huge piece to touch on, is the emotional component, depending on where someone sits. And it’s, I’ve just heard, seen, you know, this resistance because people are afraid of it. They think they’re afraid of, in some ways like, and we talked about this in our pre-call like that blame and shame, or they feel like it’s been pushed as this check the box initiative, but yet they truly really don’t understand why this is so important. And so organizations, I think sometimes, you know, might be really forgetting to explain, like, what is this? Like, this is why it’s important. We’re working with human beings. Yeah. But yet people think that it’s coming as a response to one specific thing, and they’re missing out on all of the benefits. I’m just curious, like, as I know, I’ve seen it where it becomes this check, check the box, you’ve gotta do all these every single month, but we’re not even inviting them into the conversation.

And we’re probably just saying like, and you’ve been doing it wrong, so no big deal, here’s the way to do it. Right. Or I don’t know. There’s just a lot of different ways I’ve seen this done. There’s a lot of people I’ve seen even enter the arena of diversity inclusion belonging experts. And I do think that you have to be, it’s not just, it’s a mix of different things and to get everyone on that same conversation, like how do we do it? It can’t just be a push. It can’t because then there’s that resistance. And yeah. I’d love to hear your response.

Martine Kalaw:

Yeah, Jenn, I would say that there’s a space. This is a continuum; DEIB is a continuum. It’s a continuum for every individual, every organization. So, you know, individuals that focus on, you know, a specific area of DEIB, whether it’s, you know, race relations specifically whatever it is, there’s a space for all of us. And every approach, I believe for organizations, just depends on where the organization is at the moment and what they need. Right. So we’ve gotta really be audience-specific. What I would say is absolutely, you know, I, I hear time and time again, as I work with different clients, I hear people say predominantly white men in these organizations that will share with me, Hey Martine, I don’t feel like I can say anything. I don’t feel like I have the right to say anything.

I don’t wanna be shamed or blamed, and that’s a problem, right? Because we need everyone in the conversation. And when we look at organizations and the makeup of organizations and who’s sitting at the helm of the organization, it’s usually white men right now. So if they don’t feel comfortable or they that they can say anything in these conversations, then how are we gonna actually be able to move the needle and move things along. So we really wanna invite everyone in. And so, it really depends on the approach. Now, sometimes the approach looks like we’re gonna focus on, we’re gonna just do training. We’re gonna push training down your throats. We’re going to push unconscious bias, training down your throats. So it really becomes, you know, there there’s certain, there, there are elements of it’s, it’s gotta be a strategy, right? So that’s what I’m suggesting.

Training is not going to be sufficient, but there’s nothing wrong with training when it’s combined with strategy. Right. And it’s the way in which we present training. I don’t even believe in DEI training. I believe in learning. There’s a difference, right? There are conversations discussions that look different than training. Right. And I also believe when it’s infused, and it’s incorporated or presented within the framework of foundational skills that manager, or specifically you know, already learning. That’s when it’s a lot more palatable. It’s a lot easier to process and digest. So that’s, that’s really, it’s that it’s really, you know, the way in which, you know, we structure the process that really matters. So that’s why, you know, I wrote this book on the ABCs of DEI, and it’s really for managers, right. It’s designed for managers because I believe when we think about, you know, the two groups that, influence the makeup of an organization, it’s human resources and middle management, right.

Middle Managers Have to Get DEIB Right

Martine Kalaw:

Middle managers are involved with performance management compensation, you know, promotions. They’re also involved with hiring. They influence attrition, whether a person decides to say or not. So we all, most organizations offer some sort of manager development program. So DEI can be embedded right in that program. It’s just a different aspect of looking at each component of manager development when we’re looking at hiring. Right. And we, when we’re going through managers, are going through training on how to, you know, how to effectively interview behavioral-based interviews. Well, the only difference in presenting DEIB into that conversation is okay, managers, let’s talk about bias. Let’s talk about the tendencies that we all carry when we’re looking at resumes, right. When we look at a resume, we create a story about someone. We act, actually create a picture in our mind, I went to a liberal arts college. If I looked at a resume right now, one person who went to a liberal arts college and one who went to, you know, a law university, I would probably be more inclined to, you know, lean toward the person into a liberal arts college subconsciously. So managers, when we’re looking at resumes, let’s consider what those biases could be, and let’s try to figure out ways to mitigate it. Right? So that’s a different way of presenting DEI learning rather than, Hey, everyone, we’re gonna go through this training in here. You’re gonna go through this training. And yeah. And then you’re, you’re expected to like shift the way that you behave in the workplace. So that’s really what we get to do differently. And when we present it in this way, there’s less shame and blame, right. Because people start to digest this, and it becomes like a muscle, the more managers digest this, the more they actually start to behave differently. And then it permeates throughout the organization. Right. That’s a different approach.

What Are DEIB Efforts Trying to Accomplish?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. I’ve just, it really has to be a part of your culture, and it’s got to be a part of your strategy. Yeah. And people have to be, have permission to join the conversation. Those are like three things that I’ve said, and it’s not just training. There has to be dialogue. So let’s, let’s level set again. Martine, what does diversity equity, inclusion and belonging DEIB intend to do? Cause I know we talked about like, this is such a, you can approach this in a variety of different ways, but for those that might be still resistant, like, what is this intended to do?

Martine Kalaw:

Yeah. That’s a great question. I mean, we first wanna break out what DEIB you know what it means, right. When we look at diversity, there are so many different components of diversity. I don’t think everyone is fully aware of that. Right. I mean, I break it out into like three segments, right? One segment being, you be, you know, the physical-biological. So when we think about gender and race, okay. That is part of that, you know, the first component, the second component is cultural, right? I mean, so it, it thing, such things like you know, your age, your marital status, right. That’s a component, and the third is really behavior-based behavior. So that can be, look that can look like whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert. And all of those three components are really critical and more thinking about creating more diverse workplaces.

Right. But I will, I will say, I do wanna make sure that I’m clear in saying that there are gonna be certain segments that are more important, more prominent. That should be more prominent within our organization or organizational initiatives. Right. You know, equity can look like a lot of things. We immediately think it’s solely about compensation. It is about compensation, but it’s also about, you know, creating a space where people have access, access to training, access, to leadership, access, to headquarters, access to mentors, things like that. Right. And then, you know, inclusion and longing are really about right. Creating a space where it’s not just about bringing someone in on the, bringing someone into the team, but it’s really making sure they understand how they contribute to the organization, how they contribute to your goals as a team. So that means connecting with them regularly, allowing them to share their ideas, making them feel involved.

Right. And it also involves a level of representation. People feel more involved. They feel like they belong when they see other people that look like them, right. That are, you know, that are, have advanced within the organization. So that’s what DEIB really represents. And so the goal of DEIB within the organization is really to create organizations that foster, that allow all of us to always have our antennas up to our antennas so that we are thinking about how we can grow our organizations through the myriad of people that are coming into the organization. Right. So how do we find the best, smartest talent that represents, you know, that, that, that represent the the the makeup of the, of U.S. Pretty much, right? Like we want the organization to kind of reflect how the demographics of our country, that that’s one, right. Yeah. As, as possible. But how do we do it in a way where everyone feels like it’s fair? There’s fairness in that process. Right. And when we bring people in, how do we ensure that everyone feels like there’s fairness in the process of growing throughout the organization? Right. So that’s really what DEIB is intended to do. And at the end of the day, it benefits the organization as a whole.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, yes. The organization. And I mean, this is the piece where I just wish everyone looked at it that way because it creates a place. We spend so much time at work. And if we can feel like we have a place where we belong, that we’re supported, that we’re invited into the conversation. I feel like there are mental health, positive, mental health impacts that can come for an individual positive sense of like the ripple effect. That’s there. If we just create a place for people to thrive or representative of where you’re at, like that is the piece that I hate, that it’s become kind of this hot button topic of like some people resisting it because of how it’s done because really it’s about seeing the whole individual that comes in and then understanding your organization’s structures, your processes, and how, and what they could be either helping or hurting that individual. It’s caring!

Martine Kalaw:

The thing that I will say is that it’s definitely not. I hear some people say it’s, you know, the goal of DEIB is to create this colorblind space. Right. And where everyone, every, you know, we don’t see color. And I actually disagree with that. I think that, you know, the challenge or the issue with, you know, this colorblind theory is it’s, it just dismisses people. Right. It it’s very dismissive of people because some of us, we, we want to it’s, it’s okay to see color it’s okay to see and acknowledge people for who they are and how they define themselves. That is okay, because we wanna appreciate that. Right. So that’s really, you know, it’s, it’s not about getting to a place where we’re color blind. It’s getting to a place where we allow people to define themselves and we’re accepting of that. And we don’t place meaning whether it be positive or negative, we don’t place meaning on people based on what we see, what we hear, but we place meaning on their actions. Right. That’s really where we wanna get to. That’s the goal of DEIB

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. I, I want it there. I want it now, Mar like, I want it to be this place for, that’s what we’re focusing on. We’re not getting maybe more confused, or I guess, like, I would say, even just excluding or disengaging from it, we’re getting to a place where we can understand what that looks like for someone. And I think the differentiation that you made, like assigning label is good or bad. Like, you still have to understand who that individual is like and what, like their pride is, who they are, how they see that it’s not going to be the same for every single one of us, even though you might notice similar things. And I put in air quotes, things like we’re still completely different people.

How Do We Get DEIB Right?

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So we’re gonna get into doing it right because we talked about, you know, some of those problems, I loved so many of the insights that you shared, Martine. How do we get DEIB right? Where do you start?

Martine Kalaw:

We start by first not using the, you know, academic-speak in the workplace because that just doesn’t, it, it, academia is a completely different space and structure. And when we do that, that’s when DEIB becomes really intimidating. Right? Human resources, professionals, individuals within organizations feel like, well, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t feel like I’m equipped to lead these kinds of conversations. I don’t feel like, you know, we’re gonna get to that place, you know, where we’re actually doing DEIB right because we’re using academia as a framework. Right. So what we get to do is create our own common language around DEIB within our organization. Right. So that’s one way to do it. Right. But another thing that we get to, there’s

Jenn DeWall:

A quick question. And when you say like that, you’re just saying to like, modify, like, instead of calling it diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging find what is going to be the most productive to like, support those conversations in your workplace, that we don’t have to call it that because you know, it can be okay. Perfect. I love that. Just wanted to clarify that.

Martine Kalaw:

Yeah. We don’t have to call it that we don’t have to worry about. Okay. You know, do I understand, will I know when something is a microaggression, a microaggression is pretty much when someone, if someone comes to you and says, they’re offended by something you did or said, potentially that’s a microaggression. So it’s less about being able to define it and being able to figure out whether or not it’s a microaggression or not. And it’s really about just being conscientious of other people, right. And their emotions, their feelings, and not being, not feeling like you get to be the judge of how other people feel that’s a different way to frame or reframe all these concepts that are coming at us. So that’s really what I’m saying is people get so stuck in the minutia of the concept. People go, you know, I hear people say, well, you know, Martine, I really don’t understand, you know, what LGBTQIA+ is.

And I feel like I need to understand all the different sub-components so I can actually engage in conversation. And you know, it, it doesn’t have to be that overwhelming. We make it a little bit too overwhelming. Let’s just start by asking questions. Let’s start with just acknowledging that we can enter space, like you said earlier, a space of dialogue where we get to learn from each other. That’s it. Right. So that’s, that’s a different approach. So that’s the first thing, another way of doing, doing DEIB right in organizations, is looking at the metrics and what I’m, what I’m suggesting is not just the metrics looking at like one layer of metrics. Cause that’s what a lot of organizations do. Right. They, you know, they’ll, they’ll say, okay, we’re gonna look across the board. We’re gonna look at gender. We’re gonna look at ethnicity across the board. All right. Yeah. The numbers look okay. So we’re fine.

Identify Your DEIB Opportunities

Martine Kalaw:

That is not enough. Right. What I’m suggesting is that there are tools and systems out there that allow you to actually measure and look at the sub and the cross-section of different fields, different metrics. So you can look at gender and race, and age. Right. You can look at those three layers, right? The cross-section of all those three by the department by region tells a completely different story. Right. And that’s where you’re able to identify where there’s opportunity. Right. And a lot of organizations don’t like doing that because it’s, it’s frightening. They’re frightened of what they might see, but I wanna remind all of us that we’re all starting, you know, from an, a place of opportunity. So those numbers may not look like what you want them to look like, but that’s okay.

Create a DEIB Strategy

Martine Kalaw:

Start from, you know, we’re all starting from, from, from home base. Right. So look at the numbers and remember that you don’t have to, the goal is not to try to grow them, like change the numbers over or night. It takes time. Right. So that’s a second thing that we can do differently or better in terms of DEIB really look at the cross-section of metrics and use systems, not H.R. systems, but there are other tools and platforms that are specific to DEIB that will support to in, you know, pulling those Infor that information in metrics. The third thing that I would say that we need to do, or we could do is identify immediately. And I mentioned this earlier, what’s the value, what’s the metric? What’s the benefit of DEIB in our organization.?

Right. Because that is going to be the thing that draws everyone in, right. That’s going to be the equalizer of D I B. Right. So, and usually what I recommend is that it be quantifiable, right? So if you’re a B2B business or B2C business is there opportunity to grow your market, share, increase your market, share, right. Start there. If your B2B business, you know, is there opportunity to you know, generate more partnerships and who are your partners, look, you know, who do they work with? Who are they their customers? Right. so that’s how we start to actually make DEIB a business imperative. So those are three things right off the bat that we can start doing differently. Fourth, I’ll say is don’t run to start creating programs, cuz that’s very exciting. Like programs are lovely. Start to create programs, have a strategy.

Why are you creating the programs? Right? Because if you create programs and no strategy, how do you scale it? Right. Where does the money come from to maintain these programs? So have a strategy. And I will say the last thing is make the distinction between EEOC. And this kind of goes back to the other point that we made earlier, Jenn , about, you know, people feeling, being fearful of engaging in DEI because they equate DEI sometimes with, you know, equal employment, you know, opportunities of equal employment, what is EEOC, equal employment opportunity. I forget what that last C stands for, but that’s more, you know, that’s more, it’s legal, right? It’s statutory, right. And DEI is more policy driven. So when we don’t address DEI, right. And let’s say someone, you know, we don’t have initiatives within our organization that support individuals to mitigate bias.

DEIB is Not the Same as Equal Employment Opportunity Statutes

Martine Kalaw:

Right. And you know, and, and, and microaggressions, if someone con consistently experiences this, right. They might eventually feel like they wanna take legal action. Then it becomes an EEOC situation or issue. But EEOC is more statutory. Right. And DEI is more policy-based and policy driven. Right. So, I think it’s important that organizations make that distinction, you know, of course, E E O C is, is, is much more of it’s mandated. Right? We, we’ve gotta make sure that these, you know, the, these actions are taken and DEIB is, you know, it’s optional. But I think that this, you know, when we address DEIB and organizations and we focus on it first, we actually mitigate and minimize the, the op you know, the chances of us having more EEOC issues in our organization. Right. So that’s another, I think I listed four things that we can do, right in organizations to drive DEIB.

Jenn DeWall:

Who do you think are the individuals? I know that you talked about what earlier, so you’ve gotta have the strategy. Cause I think right now some people’s strategies are in introduce DEIB training into the work workforce, but that’s not necessarily like, what is the goal? The goal can’t be just to have the training. Like, what do you wanna see as a result of it? And I like that distinction that I think you’re making is like. It’s not just checking the box with that. Like, what are you actually wanting from that? And now, how do you build the strategy? It’s not just, just say, Hey, I got this.

Understand the ROI of DEIB

Martine Kalaw:

And that’s why when you quantify it, right. When you identify what’s that return, what’s the value of doing this, right? You identify that first. And secondly, where are we now? Right. We look at the metrics. Where are we now? Then we get to create the strategy on where, you know, how do we get from where we are to where we wanna go. Right. So that, you know, where we are is our baseline, where we want to go is gonna help us reach our, you know, our, that ROI. And then we create strategies around that. We create processes, we create procedures and programs is part of, is a component of strategy, but it’s not the only strategy. Right? So like I said, you know, it’s one thing to say, we’re just gonna, we’re gonna have the training, but it’s another thing to say, we’re going to provide we’re gonna provide you know, managers with DEI training and it’s gonna be part of their manager development program.

Right. We’re gonna do that. And we’re also going to now, you know, we’re gonna have a scorecard that actually that’s part of that. So we’re able to assess whether or not we’re actually moving the needle on DEI or going forward with performance, you know, performance evaluations. What we’re gonna do is we’re going to check for potential biases in the recaps that managers share, or we’re going to after performance evaluations and after promotions or in the process of promotions, we’re going to look at, you know, what’s the rate of promotion by gender, by race, by whatever. And how does that, you know, what’s that correlation to who’s leaving the organization, right? So that’s what I mean, when I say strategy. Or we’re going to, in terms of strategy, we’re going to look at our pipeline. We’re gonna look at who are we bringing in?

Are we widening our pool of individuals who are coming in entry-level? Our internship program. What’s the, what’s the conversion of our interns? Where are we pulling our interns from? And then once we figure out, okay, this is part of the strategy we’re going to, you know, we want to you know, increase our pipeline and we wanna strengthen it. Or we want to, you know, create a different position entry level position so that we can widen our pool of candidates. Right. Because a lot of organizations, or I won’t say a lot, but some organizations will say, look, we only allow for candidates who have this particular degree, right. Come into our organization. And my follow up is, well, is there an opportunity to create another entry level position, right? That where a person can actually graduate from that position into, you know, this other, you know, position that you’re, you require a particular degree for. Right. So that they can grow and they can, you know, you can maybe sponsor them getting that degree. So that’s part of strategy development. And when you develop that strategy, what comes with it is, okay, well then what kind of learning do we need to, to also implement, right. And how do we support our managers? How do we support leadership in understanding why we’re doing this? Why this matters well, that it involves learning. That just involves discussions. Right? That’s how strategy can and should work more effectively.

Embed DEIB in the Organization

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I’m happy that you even brought up just thinking about it’s rethinking different ways. I know that I worked for an organization that heavily recruited at big 10 universities. And then just thinking about all the places that they missed seeing talent, because they only went there and you know, it’s not just, I I’m so happy that you said that because we aren’t aware of our bias or even the, that affinity bias of how we naturally gravitate towards people that are most like ourselves, every person does it, it’s an unconscious bias. Like we’re not judging, we’re not throwing out judgment. We are throwing out the place to understand and reflect and think and be curious. And so how do you embed that strategy into the organization? How would you advise people to approach to that? Well thinking about like, cause I know that we had talked about how do we get, like what, how do people actually reinforce like the efforts of the organization? Does that lie specifically within H.R. to take that through? Or what do we need to do with leaders to help them embed strategy into the efforts?

Martine Kalaw:

So it starts with human resources cuz usually they’re the ones who are charged with that responsibility. So it starts there, but it can’t just end there. Right. What we know is that anyone even, you know, Chief Diversity Officers, the likely, you know, the, you know, the time span, they usually stay within an organization and their position on average three years. Because if they’re the only ones charged with that responsibility, it’s heavy, it’s a burden, and not one person can change, you know, DEI for an entire organization. So everyone has to be involved. So the way that I see it and the way that I recommend it recommended is yes, you’ve got human resources. If they’re charged with owning DEI they’re responsible, you know, they get to, you know, be responsible for identifying what that ROI is identifying, you know, what that strategy can look like.

And we are building it out and presenting to their stakeholders, one being leadership. So leadership has to be held accountable as well. So when we’re talking about, you know, widening our pool of candidates, widening our networks, right. We get to hold leadership responsible. They get to, we get to hold them. We can hold them responsible in scorecards. Right. We can also look at usually, you know, in organizations, leadership, you know, they own different regions of the market or, you know, in that way. So let, why not have some sort of metrics around that? Now I wanna be clear that we’re not talking about quotas, right. So I know that that is a real fear for a lot of fear for people in organizations, right? That DEI means we’re going to have quotas, and it means we’re going to bring in individuals that are less qualified than, you know, than others.

That’s not true, right? I mean, that’s not the goal of DEI, and that doesn’t happen. That shouldn’t happen because we’re gonna bring in, the goal is to widen the pool of candidates. And when you widen the pool of candidates, qualified, eligible candidates, you increase the likelihood of bringing in somebody, right. Who may not look like some, the majority of the people in your organization, but has just as much experience if not more and can contribute more. So what we get to do, though, is we get to hold each leader accountable to making sure that this stuff is actually happening in their area, in their region. They get to, you know, they’re holding their managers accountable, right? So our managers, so our human resources is driving the strategy, right? Leadership is being held accountable for this strategy. And the managers are in the middle, right?

The managers are actually reinforcing all of this through the, the people, right? Because the managers are the ones who are actually doing the hiring. They’re the ones who are, are actually doing the promotions. They’re the ones who are actually, you know, determining compensation. So they’re kind of like in the middle, you know, actually implementing it, but their leaders are being held accountable for making sure that it’s happening. So that is how this relationship can work. And it is symbiotic way to really drive DEI strategy. Right? I mean, I think of it like a, you know, you think of a scorecard it’s not a scorecard, excuse me a playbook, right? I think you can, you can create and have a, a DEI playbook just like you would have a sales playbook. This is what, who, you know, this person’s gonna, you know, their responsibility is X, Y, Z.

This person’s responsibility is X, Y, Z. And this is how we’re gonna actually see that it’s working. Right. And it’s not enough to say, we’re just gonna look at the makeup of the organization to see if it’s changed. We don’t want that. Right. Because that suggests creating, establishing, you know, quotas. That’s not what we want. What we’re looking at is how are we widening our pool of candidates? Who are we actually, you know, who are we looking at when we’re looking at resumes? What resumes are we looking at? And in conjunction with that, right? Are we helping our managers mitigate their biases? Cause we all have biases. Like you said, right. Do managers understand how those biases happen? And in that interview process, what are the different ways that we can mitigate biases? Yes. Managers can understand how to mitigate their own biases. But what if we had an ERG, you know, someone from our ERG also engage in the interview process of a candidate. So not only is the manager interviewing that candidate, but now there’s another pool of people who, you know, who have, who might potentially be unbiased, who can also interview that candidate. Right. That’s what it can look like. These are the type of conversations that can happen to actually make the change. You know, that we’re looking for,

How to Learn More with Martine Kalaw’s DEIB Masterclass

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Martine, I’ve loved our conversation. And just as a reminder, it starts with your strategy and how are you getting people into the strategy, but also educating them on what it is and what it’s not, because I think you’re right. There’s a lot of noise in terms of people coming to conclusions or jumping, maybe assuming what it is. And that’s not like quotas, like it’s not what it’s designed and to do. It’s designed to expand. So you can have access to a broader pool of talent. Martine I’ve loved our conversation. I know I want to send our audience to your site. How do they get in touch with you? I know that you’re promoting a masterclass. Give us all the details on how we can connect with you.

Martine Kalaw:

Yeah, Jenn . So my next masterclass is April 27th from 12 to 1 Eastern Time. It’s just an opportunity for H.R. professionals, human resource professionals to join me. So we can talk about the five things that you can do implement in the next 90 days to really move di forward. Right? So we’re gonna really dig in and, and, you know, figure that out together and you can go directly to my website, https://martinekalaw.com/masterclass/. And you can go ahead and sign up and I’d love to have you there.

Jenn DeWall:

All right. Perfect Martine, thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, your passion, and also helping us understand how we can do it the right way to actually get the intended impact of what we want. I’m just so grateful for this conversation. Thank you for bringing a different way to look at DEIB. Check out her masterclass until next time, Martine.

Martine Kalaw:

Thank you so much.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode, The Leadership Habit podcast. I love my conversation with Martine Kalaw and as she shared, if you are an H.R. professional and you are interested in attending for live masterclass on April 27th, from 12 to one Easter, you can sign up at MartineKalaw.com/masterclass, or you can find the link in our show notes. And if you know that you could benefit from hearing this conversation, please share the episode and don’t leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

 

The post How Organizations Can Get DEIB Right with Martine Kalaw, Elevation Strategist appeared first on Crestcom International.

Business Performance and Mindset: The Game You Must Win Now More Than Ever with Will Matthews

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Will Matthews to talk about the game you must win now more than ever before. Will Matthews helps companies develop an outstanding emerging leader, and he is the author of the best-selling book, You’ve Got This! The Five Self-Coaching Keys You Need to Live Boldly and Accomplish Anything. Following 25 years of corporate experience and corporate leadership, Will now speaks internationally to companies and associations on the topics of self-leadership, developing emerging leaders and team excellence, Will’s presentations and training reveal insights that he has learned as an iron man athlete, business executive and professional development expert to help professionals breakthrough to the results and fulfillment that they want with warrior-like determination and skill. I hope you enjoy the conversation that will and I have. As we talk about the game, you must win now more than ever before. Enjoy.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting down with Will Matthews today to be talking about the game that you must win now more than ever. Will, what is this game? But before we go into it, I wanna know what the game is. Actually, no, we’re gonna, we’re gonna hold off for our listeners. Let’s just start off. Will, you have a great background that people have heard about. You’ve worked with so many different clients. Just tell us a little bit about yourself, how you came to be and how you even came to want to bring this message to the world.

Meet Will Matthews, Business Performance and Mindset Expert

Will Matthews:

Well, yeah, first off, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. I’m super excited to be with you. I’m a big fan of yours, and yeah, so I’ll give you a little bit on me because I really wanna spend our time on how we can help move the needle together for your listeners. But I had a really, really long, you can see the gray hair. I’ve been around a while, and I’ve had a, I had a really long corporate career leading teams and sales, marketing operations. And, and after a while, after many years, even though I loved it, I recognized that I just wanted to contribute in a different way. I mean, all the, I dunno if anybody and the listeners can relate to this, but you know, viewers but you know, all the highs that used to be there, like you’d win the big deal or you got the big promotion or whatever it was. You know, they seemed to flatten out. They weren’t as exciting anymore. And the low, the hard times, and I knew I’d figure out a way through ’em. So all the juice that came along with the highs and lows of that, of my corporate roles and energy and information technology, we’re just kind of flattening out. And I thought you know what? That’s not how I wanna spend my time. I love the corporate world. Not saying that’s for everybody, but for me, I recognized the calling to go contribute in a different way. So I started my company Matthews Performance Group to really help people get to where they want to go in leadership, in sales results, in managing, and just kind of becoming more of who they really are, what they can bring to the table.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Now you’re an Ironman athlete. Something that I will never understand. I have massive respect. I don’t think I’ll ever be adding that to my resume, but I know that that’s an important part of your business. How do you use that to inspire how you serve your clients?

Mindset + Skillset + Execution = Success

Will Matthews:

Yeah, absolutely. And, and the model that we’re gonna talk about just a little bit later is something I trademarked called Mindset plus Skillset plus Execution is what creates success in business. And mindset is number one, Jenn, for a reason. If you don’t have this dialed in the other two, it doesn’t matter. In fact, if you don’t have this dialed in, in my opinion, having worked with thousands, literally coached thousands of CEOs and business owners and sales professionals. If that’s not dialed in, I don’t even wanna talk about what your strategic plan is or, you know, your goals or whatever it is, because it’s not gonna matter until we kinda figure out where this is. What is your level of expectation that you can succeed? What’s your level of confidence, where’s your energy, your focus, your positive expectation, right? And focus on what you can control. All those things start here.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, I love that you’re talking about that because it is the place we, I think, especially if we are, if an organization or business leaders in pain, we wanna focus on the strategy to fix the pain, but we don’t realize that it’s, everything is an inside out approach that it all starts with us before we can go. And I think that’s so that you make that your primary step.

Will Matthews:

Yeah, no doubt. And you know so turns out in, in when you’re doing endurance sports like Ironman is one of those for sure. I’m doing my next one actually up in kind of your place of origin, kind of in the north. This is actually Wisconsin, but you know, close by for you, right. In Madison. So I’ll be doing that later this year, but

Jenn DeWall:

Wait, you’re doing the Ironman in Wisconsin?

Will Matthews:

Yeah. 20th Anniversary.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. That’s so exciting. I used to, I, the part-time job that I had throughout college because I went to UW, Madison was on State Street. And so every year when they ran the Ironman, I could watch them. So I have seen a lot of Ironmans, and I will probably see Ironman, but that’s congratulations to you. Sorry to interrupt. But that was just fun. I mean, yeah. People, people listening to Wisconsin, you look for Will Matthews if he’s running that Ironman downtown or down State Street.

Will Matthews:

Yeah, absolutely. So it’s a really, it’s a big endurance sport. And if you don’t know about Ironman, you can look it up. I won’t take the time to describe it. It’s a long day and, you know, look, it’s, it is about training. I’m training this afternoon, you know, I’m tr I’ve been training six months before. It is about building body strength and, and all those things. But you know what, again, if, if you wake up and you don’t have a way to dial this in, it’s not gonna really give you the result you want. So huge mindset fan, it works in sports. You see it all the time. If you, if someone so on the side of a, of a says, we have a good international audience there, you know, football or a soccer game, when the teams come out, you know, they don’t just kinda walk out, you know, sit on the bench before the game and, you know, look around.

No, they come out, and they start. They’re like pumping each other up. Right. And they are getting people excited. Like, let’s go, we can do this. You know, my book, you’ve got this, it’s written that way for a reason like you’ve got, this is what we tell each other when we want to get people to rise up and bring their best to the table. So that’s how I look at it in terms of leadership development, and I work a lot, Jenn with emerging leaders, and the cool thing is, guess what? We’re always emerging. Yeah. So even though the target’s kinda that, that younger group coming in, maybe it’s their first, second, third leadership role. What’s cool is that the principles are applicable even if you’ve been leading for a long time.

Where do Leaders Get Business Performance Mindset Wrong?

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. Well, and so many leaders, even, they may have advanced to mid-level positions, even executive positions without a lot of access to that learning and development. And so, I love how you differentiate that because everyone is learning. If you’re not growing, you’re dying. So let’s get, let’s get into the formula, let’s break down what it means. And maybe let’s talk about it, so it’s mindset plus skillset plus execution equals success in business. And that is your trademark formula. So if you were gonna say where from your experience, you’ve coached thousands of people, where do people get this wrong? So is it specifically with the mindset? Like where do they get it wrong?

Will Matthews:

That’s a great question. And actually the challenge, right? Think of it as a survey. You know, where are you think about it in your own life or those watching and listening to Jenn for you too, you know, think about it. Where when your day in and day out, we’ll have our ups and downs. And you know, our biorhythms of which is the course, the level of mental sharpness, emotional strength and physical strength, those are kind of on these sliding curves. And because of that, if you will, we have some days where we’re on top of the world, you know, are these lined up, we’re feeling sharp. We’re we slept well, everything’s going well in our lives. And we feel physically strong. We have other days when all three are really, you know, in the valley there, and we’re like barely hanging on energy-wise.

And then, oh my gosh, you know, I have this huge emotional challenge from my personal life. Oh, by the way, I’m also not feeling great. Well, guess what? Unfortunately, the world doesn’t really care about that. We’d like to think it does, but it doesn’t. The world cares about results. So we wanna find a way, Jenn, to be able to bring your A-game, even on those days when you’ve got nothing in the tank. And that’s so, so if you think about the survey approach, where are you? So we know we have highs and lows, but in general, where are you in terms of one to 10, let’s say 10 is amazing. One being like hardly, hardly any skill at all, in terms of that mindset, what’s the mindset. I’m not asking you particularly to answer, but everybody, where are you typically in terms of mindset and mindset is strictly a way that you process and filter the world in a way so that you make sense of the world and decide how you show up and how you fit in or don’t fit in, in that world.

That’s what mindset is, right. When we feel strong, when we feel excited, when we feel like part of something, something, that’s why we like to work with, you know, groups where we could feel like we’re part of something bigger. You know, all parts of our brain are firing. We’re getting better ideas. We’re excited. We’re, we’re motivated. Our mindset is really, really hot. Oftentimes we could be on the other side. So the idea for the listeners and watchers are, where are we 1 to 10, in terms of mindset by that definition in general. Yeah. And then from there, right? The other

Jenn DeWall:

I’m so curious because the mindset is, I, you know, we were just, I had this conversation this morning with someone and, you know, they were just talking about a conflict of that they were having with someone else. And this person is kind of much more in their head. And we were just talking about how difficult it actually is to help someone see, like, Hey, do you understand how your actions, how your thoughts are actually impacting this? How do you help people build that mindset awareness? Because I think that, that sometimes people think, oh, I’ve got it better than what I do. I think there are people that are listening that are like. I absolutely can answer that question. I know exactly where I am there, maybe feelers like me. And then there are people that maybe are just not self-aware. So how do you help people build that self-awareness?

Will Matthews:

I believe that we are, and I love what you said just a minute ago, you know? I’ll paraphrase, but you know, the idea that—guess what—what we create, what we experience in our career and our life is, is truly a, is created first on the inside. Right? And, and then it appears on the outside, we have this ability to affect the results we have. And, and I believe that’s where mindset really comes in. So then, one of the reasons that I left my corporate job to start Matthews Performance Group was I wanted to do more of what I saw myself. I saw strength. And that was that I could see the warrior by the way my brand is, is right back in right here, the instant warrior emergency program. And what do I mean by an instant warrior? Well, I believe that you, and I’m not talking about the warrior. I say that like striking out against another person or those things. I’m talking about, the discipline, the precision, the dedication, the focus.

Jenn DeWall:

Resilience!

Develop Your Mindset with a Morning Ritual

Will Matthews:

Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. So I recognize that I can see the warrior and I bet many of you can. I know you can, Jenn. I can see the warrior in somebody oftentimes before they can actually see it in themselves. And then what I love doing is helping them first identify with that, you know, the skills and then bring that to the surface on a more routine basis. Okay. So how do you develop a mindset? Where’s your question, you know, is I believe you work on it. I have a, and we’re gonna say it’s always here. Oh, I have a morning ritual. That is my incantation.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, I was gonna ask you what you do in the morning, knowing that you have to be quite disciplined to train. I love that morning ritual. Okay.

Will Matthews:

Yeah. So that part of the morning ritual is, is my incantation. So that is something I read to myself. So let’s say somebody if you’re watching this right now and you’re in that slump, and you wanna figure out what, how can I bust that? How can I find a slump-buster so that I can bring it back? And as you said, Jenn, re be more resilient, bounce back up faster, then, you know, go back to the basics and like start at your day with a little bit of quiet time, whatever that is for you, whatever that is for you. And then get something where you just read or listen to you, something that really just fires you up. It’s, it’s inspiring, right? There’s so much of that available now with the, you know, YouTube and all these things. We have so much access to that. So for me, I read this every day. I’ll tell you, Hey, I’m human. I’m not always perfect at these things.

Jenn DeWall:

Right.

Will Matthews:

But I strive to get better and better. And when I’m in a place where, oh my gosh, I’m not feeling it. Usually, I’ve realized I haven’t been doing this morning ritual. I’ve been letting it go for some reason. So when I wanna get, if, if you out there having of slow time or a challenging time and listen, challenging times, come in all flavors. And, and as we record this, this podcast, you know, where there’s a lot of that in the world right now. And, and what, by the time you’re watching this, so probably still be a lot of different things going on. That’s part of the human experience, but our ability to get back to the basics and be able to bring ourselves up. So our mindset is helping us, not hindering us is very key to success.

How Does Skillset Affect Business Performance?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I know I jumped the gun. I, I jumped the gun because I didn’t even help our listeners understand your formula. So let’s, let’s take it back a little bit. We just talked about mindset, but the formula, your trademark formula- mindset plus skillset plus execution, equals success in business. Now we just talked a little bit about mindset. What do you mean about the skillset?

Will Matthews:

Great. Perfect. So, yeah, I hope, I hope everyone gets that these are very simple words and very simple concepts, but it is that combination in that equation that I’ve noticed again, having coached literally thousands of people at all levels and organizations that differentiate those who are having success routinely from those who are having frustration and disappointment and might even, you know, washout, right. Because some of you out there are gonna change your business. You’re gonna change your company. You’re gonna have a positive impact. You’re gonna make amazing changes in the world, even. And others, not on this call on, but other people will have the very same opportunity, but they will not have that same level of impact. Right. So that’s why the equation is so important. You gotta have all three in order to have the kind of results that I believe most of us really want. Right. So we can, when we can kinda simplify it and think about these three things, life gets easier. So we talked about mindset. Once you have this dialed in, by the way, that’s an ongoing project. It doesn’t end.

 

Jenn DeWall:

You can’t set and forget your mindset. You gotta keep working on it.

Will Matthews:

Exactly. I think, I think it was Zig Ziglar that said motivation is like, bathing. You really can’t just do it once. And for all right, You know, you gotta keep going.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, I like that!

Will Matthews:

That. So, OK. So, but knowing how we got this, at least on a track. We’ve got, we have you thinking about what’s possible. We have you thinking, you know, you have yourself thinking about what you want to achieve, that it’s like, then you gotta know what to do. Right? You have to have some skills, whatever, whatever your profession, you gotta get the basics. I mean, whatever it is you do, you must do it well, right? In order to be one who’s considered to be at the top of your industry. So whatever those skills else are, if you were a doctor, right. Or a surgeon, let’s say specifically, you know, you, you can have a great mindset about every, about all the outcomes you want and you still have to know how to do a great, you know, Append- what’s that word- appendix… Why did I pick that one?

Jenn DeWall:

Appendectomy? I got one of those. So I think I can say that.

Will Matthews:

So you know how to do your work, if you’re in sales, you have to have the skills to be able to listen effectively, to be able to bring up the objections so that they’re not just hanging out there, you know, being able to call out the elephant room, you know, and I believe in one of the components of the skillset that I teach is what I call relationship science. Another trademark term, relationship science, no matter what your profession turns out, you’re gonna need the buy-in from other people.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes!! I said this quote this morning. It’s, and it’s a quote that I’m so glad. Like, I feel like my, you know, I have a lot of family members that have given me great one-liners, but you are never independent. We are always interdependent. Absolutely. Like your, your illusion of independence. Like that’s what she said to me during my formative years. Like you’re never going to be independent. So you can just stop thinking that. No, I love that relationship science. Continue on. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

Understanding Relationship Science

Will Matthews:

So relationship science is really the ability to understand number one. What makes you tick, right? How you are wired, so to speak or how you, you know, how you prefer to be communicated with, etcetera. And then, but most importantly, which that’s great. That’s been the, from a self-awareness perspective, as you shared earlier, you know, that really dials up self self-awareness, but where the real, the real benefit is, is in understanding then how to, how to accurately understand how someone else is wired, your boss, someone on your team, your customer. Someone else in the organization that you need them to partner with you, even though you have no direct, you know, authority to say, Hey, you have to do this. Right. You can only influence.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah.

Will Matthews:

So, so those, so that’s part of the skillset that no matter what your profession, being good at relationship science is one of the things that’s gonna, is gonna elevate you, hopefully from wherever you are, one to 10 on your skillset to something that is getting you closer to 10.

How Does Execution Affect Business Performance?

Jenn DeWall:

Right? Right. You gotta, like, I love that. Starting with the mindset, where do you wanna go? I, I just, I love that image that you painted. What does it look like when players are coming out to perform their game? You know, like you’ve got this. Like, I, I feel like organizations would probably shake if everyone walked in being like, yes, I’m so empowered, but that’d be so awesome. But I think people would be like, what’s happening in the world, but yeah. You can have the right mindset. Like I wanna win. I want to do blank. And then all of a sudden, if you don’t think about other people or you don’t have the skillset, it doesn’t matter. And let’s go into execution. Like what does, so then like, let’s go into execution cuz you need the mindset, you need the skills to be able to then do it. And what’s execution mean.

Will Matthews:

Absolutely. Yeah. So there great, great summary. Yeah. So once you get this dialed in, you have a path to get better at what that is, whether it’s new education, new training, whatever happens, to be, to take you up a level in, in skillset. Again, you’re gonna have to continue, you know, we wanna continually evolve the question, so then execution. So he’s gonna have to say, if you, you can have this dialed in, you can know what to do, but if you go, if you don’t execute and what I mean by that is get the ball across the goal line or into the net or whatever happens to be. Then these other two don’t really matter. Right? So in back to interdependency, all three of these have to be, you know, dialed in, in order for people to have the kind of success that I believe they want.

Yeah. And I believe your listeners and viewer want viewers to want, so execution has the ability to actually get up and do whatever that is. Right. And in leadership and, and also a big focus for a lot of the folks listening in as, as a leader, how do you execute? You know, there are a lot of assessments out there, Jenn, that are all terrific. One of those that I use a lot is DISC has been around forever, super-powerful, but there are a lot of really great ones, and what the takeaway and the reason I bring that up quickly is, you know, there are different kinds of people out there. So it, so, you know, typically there are four quadrants. I dunno how that happened to be, but typically most, most assessments are in quadrants are four. Quadrants. So recognizing it, part of your leadership skills is that your leadership approach is not a one-size-fits-all. Right. The way that you want to be led is not gonna apply to many of the people who you might be leading—so executing means how do I delegate? Well, I find, and I bet you do too. I find that for new leaders, especially, but actually, people have been around a long time. Delegation is one of the most difficult things for people to be good at doing and executing on.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And I laugh. Cause when I teach that class for Crestcom, there’s ultimately always one person that’s like, I actually thought I was a much better delegator. And now I realize that I’m not a great delegator. Like I, it’s not as simple as just saying, will you please go do this?

Will Matthews:

Right. Yeah. I know it’s so funny. Right. And so, and the bottom line is if you are not delegating, you are not managing, and you’re, you’re not leading. If you’re not good at delegating right now for, for those, you know, tuning in right now, get good at it. Right. It sounds like Jenn’s got some good ways of helping you on that. And, and the bottom line is like, you’ve gotta get good at it. And there are so many reasons why people aren’t good at delegating. I think delegating is one of the keys to execution.

 

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Tips For Improving Business Performance Mindset

Jenn DeWall:

I wanna dive in, I know that we talked about tips l, because I just think that execution peeps and how you talked about the interdependency, that you can have the fanciest strategy, that if you don’t have the right mindset, that’s going to allow you to be resilient. Then you’re not gonna execute. Or like, I guess of the places that you might see people fail in terms of how they sustain this formula is that maybe when they don’t execute, then do you see them come back and then their mindset drops and then they kinda have to go through? Or what do you see when people are actually faced with those challenges, right? Like how do we? How do you recover and build your own resilience? If it didn’t work is what I thought it was going to be. Right. Right. And that outcome was different than what I had in my head. That’s delegation. Yeah,

Will Matthews:

Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, you’re right. It was a great way of describing the interdependency of those, of these three principles and, you know it, it turns out most people in my experience know what to do. Like within these three that we’re talking about here, most people know where they’re not at a 10. A 10 is a pretty lofty goal. So let’s say we’re between mindset, skillset, and execution, they’re gonna have some that are gonna be, it’ll look like a, like a trumpet key set, right? There are three keys on a trumpet. So, so it’ll be like this. And it’ll, it’ll change from time to time too. You’ll have a real high mindset, other days, not so high, but in general, people know where they need to dial it up, but it turns, you know, so, so why is that? Why, if you know what to do, how you need to, to show up more powerfully and then why don’t you? Well, distraction’s a huge part of that. Yeah. You might have your coffee or tea in the morning and you get to work whether it’s at home or at an office, and you’ve got you just, I’m gonna execute big time day. And if you walk in email lights up, your boss comes in, there’s all these things that are just like, take you out of that,

Jenn DeWall:

The – hey, got a minute, got a minute— Oh yeah

Will Matthews:

That’s right. And, and so we get distracted. And the other thing too, is that, you know, we might know that we’re not good at delegating, but it takes- as the example we’ve used today so far. But and we might know, know even that I could, if I tweaked it, I could get better, but it turns out that change is hard. Change is hard for people. And especially when you’ve tacked an identity to the way you’re doing things. I’m a compassionate leader. Beautiful. Right? I mean, I love that if compassionate leader to you knowingly or unknowingly means that you’re not gonna demand much of other people, right. That’s a possibility. That you’ve tacked your identity to being someone who’s not gonna demand much from other people. Therefore, are you gonna have an effective team? No. And frankly, it’s not actually compassionate leadership anymore. Because you’re not- the team’s not succeeding, but you can imagine. Or if you’re like bull-headed, a hard driver, you know, it’s like, I’m just gonna, you know, I’m not gonna change my way. I’m just gonna tell people what to do. Command and control the old school management leadership doesn’t work anymore.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Okay. Can we talk about that? Because I, you know, even as a sidebar, I’m not sure what you’re seeing from your end is it just exploded over. Especially even I, that COVID and the pandemic really took its toll. Right. We’re all seeing the great resignation, but I feel like right now more and more articles are like, employees are expecting more and they’re gonna vocalize more. And I’m just curious, like what you’re seeing from your perspective on that, because the command in control, the, the different ways, if, if you’re listening to this and you’re still like, should I change? Right now there are so many people pushing back. So the accountability, I think, is that much higher. I’m not sure what you’re seeing on your end.

Ask Yourself— Are You Ready to Grow?

Will Matthews:

Absolutely. Jenn. That old model, which, you know, Hey, look, it’s like the industrial revolution was great when we needed an industrial revolution. Right. You know, back in the, in early 1900s, we don’t need that anymore. We’ve gone on to other things. So that’s that model doesn’t serve anymore. Same with leadership, right? It’s like command and control where you just, you know, your boss has told you what to do and sat up on maybe an elevated platform and pointed, and you just go do this. And you were not really paid to think you were paid to do even when you run in leadership roles yourself. So it’s over, it’s never gonna work. And it’s not just that the younger generation doesn’t want it, frankly. Nobody really wants that anymore. So if those who really love the command and control model, cuz they felt pretty good about their role. But it’s gone, it’s gone. It doesn’t work. It’s no longer there. So the question is not so much. As I mentioned earlier,  change is hard. There are people watching this right now who guarantee you who may have had experience in the command and control and they get intellectually, totally get it. This is not the way to do it anymore. It’s flawed or it’s no longer relevant, but changing that behavior can be really hard. So the question becomes, and I really encourage people to write this down. When it comes to change of any kind, maybe in the, one of the three components we talked about today, mindset, skillset, execution, when it comes to a change, if you frame it as change and you have a resistance to change, because some people do, that’s gonna be hard. But let me ask you this, the question better question is, are you ready to grow?

Jenn DeWall:

Right?

Will Matthews:

Are you ready to grow? Because when you think about growing, it feels, can you almost feel the energy difference between I’m ready to grow and I need to change?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Well there’s the need I feel like is also just guilt-inducing. Like I need to do this. I’m so desperate. And it’s not food and water. And then I think it adds a heaviness to the change. Yeah. You know, just that, oh my gosh. I don’t have a choice. I don’t know if you see them, people go into that defensiveness. Like I, you know, like what do you see? Like I saw your eyes just light up. Yeah. The defend, like I’m not changing. This is working for me. Why would they change? Right.

Will Matthews:

Yeah. And pretty soon they get all their office belongings in a box and they’re out the door because they didn’t choose to. I like the word evolve. Yeah. And, and we’re all capable of it. So if it’s, if anyone’s freaking out just know, you can do this. That is really just a thing, a thought process. Do I, am I ready to grow and become the stronger leader that I know I can be? And so hopefully this model might be one tool you can use to, you know, to be able to focus your energy and, and make the kind of growth that you’d like to create.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Are, are you ready to grow? I feel like this is a great call to action. No matter what day you’re listening to this, are you ready to grow today? Are you ready to rethink? And I love that you said it leadership. If you want to be an effective leader, it’s all about your own evolution. Like and what worked today or may not work tomorrow and vice versa. I love that. Like question of just reminding that change is iterative and you’re changing every single day. Whether you realize it or not, that’s true, but really like you, you want to embrace it because I mean, I’m sure you’ve probably seen with your clients, people, you know, holding on to old ideas, not wanting to change. And then you find out that, well now your competitor has evolved their product and they’re changing or I don’t wanna change my leadership style. And then all of a sudden you are the one that’s in the HR office being talked to about, you know, how you could show up differently. I mean, you know, change is scary, but like, I guess it’s like, how do you help people understand the consequence of staying the same or not changing?

Will Matthews:

Well, I think the consequences happen naturally. Maybe it’s a lower performance review. Maybe it’s just not even a, a metric, but just feeling disconnected. It’s not feeling the energy you used to have for your job as the leader. Maybe not, maybe not getting the opportunities to lead at a bigger at, at a bigger scale, if that’s a desire for, for someone to go up the corporate ladder, so to speak or to get involved in mergers and acquisitions of other companies. So it’s you know, I, I like to say that, that we usually know when it’s time to grow because we’ll start to feel an internal tuck and you know, there’s only one truth. You’re either leading well or you’re not. Yeah. You know, there’s a, this is bit of a spectrum, but you’re either where you wanna be as a leader right now, or a salesperson or a business development professional or whatever it happens to be that is your, your niche or niche.

But you’re either getting the results,  the personal reward, the, the, the emotional reward or you’re not. And if you’re not, great, I wonder what I could do. Oh, lemme think about these three things. Well, okay. Where is my mindset? What am I bringing to the table every day? As the leader, you know, you’re the tip of the spear. We know that you’re the tip of the spear as it goes, the leader goes to the team, always love this. When I work with teams, a lot of times it’s like the leader’s like I could, I could do great things if I only had a better team, you know? And the team’s like, we could be so great if we only better leader.

And so somewhere in that circle of pointing, you gotta point at yourself and say, look, I know I can, this is the part I can control. I can control my level of focus, positive expectations. I can focus on what I bring to the table, my work ethic, my attitude, my active listening, I think is so important. How much am I present with people versus just nodding my head and say, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, on your, there are a lot of leaders who I still work with, who they’ll say, you know, sometimes I’m in my calls on my one on one meetings, that I’m on my phone. I’m like, are you kidding me? I mean, what’s the message that you’re sending when you have a one-on-one someone’s time, your time. And yet you are rejecting your email at the same time. I, these little tweaks we might have, you know, we’re so close to it that we can’t always see those places where we’re goofing up, but there everyone else can see them very clearly.

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh. Yes. They, they feel it. I think of like the joke, and I think this reminds me of that, of, cause it, it did used to drive me bananas. Like if you wanna have a conversation with me, if you’ve asked me to come in, or even if I have a question and I’m sure that some people can relate with this, you come in and you want to ask them a question and they don’t even look up. Right. And so then you just feel like, well, A- maybe I’m stupid because I have this question or B- this person clearly doesn’t have time for me when sometimes all takes is turning around or like, but to get to that, my favorite thing because of that experience, and I saw this on a meme was, it’s this reaction you look like every time I see you, you remind me of a software update. And I say, not now, right? Like that is like the thing of like how I think it’s that attention of understanding where you could be goofing up. Because as much as you’re so focused on that, it’s these, I love that you say it’s the little things that are undermining your ability to create your success. It’s that skillset piece, that relationship science piece that you were talking about.

Will Matthews:

Exactly.

How to Boost Your Business Performance Mindset

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I wanna dive in and just talk about a few of your tips. Cause I know you kind of did this in a different flow, but mindset, you start your day, you have a ritual. I love that you read to yourself and what do you do? I’m curious, like, what tips would you have for someone that’s just like, okay, I’m at a four, I’m at a three. I’m not feeling great. Any tips for that person to broaden boost, like boost that mindset if they’re really feeling like I’m not there today?

Will Matthews:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I was I had the privilege of being a, a coach with with Tony Robbins company for, for several years. And for those who know Tony Robbins you know, you’ll you’ll know this, if you’re not familiar with Tony Robbins, he’s just the guy who really does great work in helping people bring their potential to the table. And so one of the things that I I took away with from that was was this idea. And he, he used something called neurolinguistic programming NLP. Again, you may have heard that and may not, but, but NLP is really a way of understanding how your mind works so that you can support bringing a better mindset. So I’m just gonna give you an idea of something that I’ve, I’ve later put together. And that is like, look, if you wanna change your state, your, your emotional, physical, mental state, you can change it in any one of the following three ways, number one, your body.

So like if I’m I’m standing up right now, cause I know that for me, that brings different energy for me. But if you’re in a slump yeah. But you know, check out your posture, you know, you know, imagine that you’re in a car, you’re driving a car and you’re 20 minutes late for the most important meeting in your, of the, maybe for the year, but at least the a month. And you’re late, not just traffic, you just left late. OK. So it’s all on you. You’re freaking out, traffic slowing down. What’s the, what’s the posture you’re gonna have in that car? What would that be? Jenn

Jenn DeWall:

Tense. I would just feel yeah. Down tense. I, I need to get there, get outta my way. I mean, that’s my mindset.

Will Matthews:

You’re hunched over, you’re you know, and you’re breathing, right? Your body part, this part of the body here is, you know, posture, gaze, keep your head up a little bit. Shoulder is back, right. Breathe for crying out loud! Like when you’re times like you’re are you breathing deeply and nourishing your body with oxygen or barely breathing enough to sustain life. Right? And so you realize when you wanna change your state, change your body! Stand up, walk around, pace, you know, get your posture where it needs to be. Number two is your, your mindset and mindset in this case is like, are you focusing on the times that you succeeded? Or are you focusing on the times when you failed? And our mind, our ego mind has a way of making sure we could always pull back the times that didn’t go our way. Yeah. Or we could always pull back the times that we screwed up.

I mean, there’s a list. It’s like a legal pattern of those things that sit in your head all the time and we’re kind of negative. We have this negativity bias. We can pull those out really quickly, but are you able to pull up a time that you crushed it? Are you able to pull up a time when you felt so proud or connected or pleased or delighted in the way that that sales call went or the way that that, that meeting went? Right? So we wanna make sure that you, so body is one way another is like, where are those times? What is my arsenal to help combat the negative self talk that we as human beings have? Okay. Yeah. So you have those, you know, what was the most exciting, you know, it could be when you were a kid, it could be yesterday, anywhere in between when you felt so good, you know, it went your way.

Maybe you hit the, you made the big, the final goal to win the soccer game, the football game, right? Whatever that is. So body first, then mindset getting arsenal placement, where you focus on your successes and have that arsenal. And then the third is your words. So our words are, it’s a whole other conversation, but this cliff note version, our short version is, look, our words, our words that we speak, go in and feed our conscious mind, which then in turn feeds our subconscious mind, which basically goes to work to create exactly what we tell ourselves is possible.

That’s why all these things are so important. If it’s like, if you believe you can, you can, I’m gonna read this it from you for this. I love this. If you think you’re beaten, you are, if you think you dare not, you don’t. If you’d like to win, but you think you can’t, it’s almost certain you won’t, if you think you’ll lose, you’ve lost. FOr out in this world, we find success begins with a person’s will. It’s all a state of mind

Jenn DeWall:

Love that. Love that

Will Matthews:

It’s by Walter Wintle, from one of my favorite poems called “Thinking” it’s longer, but I’ve taken this excerpt because I love it. Walter, W I N T L E Walter Wintle. But anyway, you know, that’s the juice, right? So our words, that’s why I have the, in that I start my day with. And I hope that everybody now on the, on this meeting thinks about what could they read? What could they write for themselves? It would give, give them that anchor back to their successes, to their highest level of contribution. So when you do walk into that next meeting, you’re firing with all the right parts of your brain,

Jenn DeWall:

Right? You get to choose that. That’s what I think is so powerful about mindset. How am I feeling right now? Well, how do you wanna feel? How do you want to feel, and what are you doing that’s contributing or distracting from what you want to feel. And I just love that. You’re saying that because there’s so much power, like in a world where we can often feel like we don’t have power, we always have power. And I love that. Bringing that back, like just to reflecting on you choose based on that mindset. And that’s why building self-awareness is important. And it’s something to understand. Are you hurting yourself or helping yourself? I just love that. Well, like I think those are great, like tips. So let’s go, let’s dive into the skillset. Like how do you, you know, the relationship-building piece you had talked about? Like how do we the relationship science piece, I should say the trade relationship science, what are your tips for skillset? Yeah.

NABA – Notice, Appreciate, Believe and Acknowledge

Will Matthews:

So I, when I think of skill set, one bucket, Jenn, is those things that are specific to your job. Okay. What does it take for you to be a top, a top player in whatever that is, doctor, lawyer, you know business development or accounting, whatever that basic set of skills, is there a certification you need to go get? So that’ll give you a higher level of performance over time. Okay. So that’s one bucket where I tend to work mostly with people though, is in that because we’re talking leadership, that’s about the interdependence right. Of people. So for me, it’s a few things like skillset, like number one. And I know it’s like an overused term these days, but number one, to what extent can you bring the skill of having a discipline of being grateful? Of expressing gratitude to those people around you? Not insincerely, everybody hates that. That’s not what we’re talking about, but sincerely identifying what’s something that you really, that you can notice, appreciate, believe and acknowledge- NABA.

Jenn DeWall:

Notice, appreciate, believe, and acknowledge somebody else. NABA. I love that.

Will Matthews:

So, so that you have, you know, when you’re in that mode, and you’re thinking about that, number one, you’re gonna see that warrior where they’re not seeing it. They’re, you’re gonna see the, the attributes they’re bringing, instead of just the things where you feel like they might have let you down. Because we’re gonna have both, but it gives you a, a pre a predisposition for focusing on the good of other people. So as a leader, number one, you know, being grateful, number two, get your disciplines in place. Your morning ritual, you know, be a warrior brave, full, courageous, right? Step in, give yourself permission to no longer tolerate, to no longer not say what needs to be said. Right. We always just love the people and a team who, and sometimes they’re like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe she said that. Or I can’t believe he said that! We so admire that somebody had it had the guts to say what needed to be said, that’s what leadership is.

Will Matthews:

And I love that. So it takes, it takes courage to do that. So that’s number two. Number three is to be an master of resiliency. To, you know, you talk a lot about resiliency and I love it. Yeah. But really, you know, resiliency, the way that I describe it is the, is the accelerator of happiness. And because you’re gonna typically, and I know people are going through devastating times right now and have over the last couple years. So I’m not saying you should just be able to take whatever hits you and just bounce back up right away. But to the extent that you’re looking at less critical, super terrifying things that might be. You might be experiencing the lesser things. We could get knocked off our game. Right. By very small things. Like maybe we didn’t get the raise. All right. How long are you going to.

Jenn DeWall:

Maybe you wore jeans to an event.

Be Willing to Reinvent Yourself

Will Matthews:

Imagine that! Right. Exactly. Or, you know, maybe, you know, maybe we didn’t get the deal, whatever you, you know, some people, it takes some, two months to get over that. Yeah. And they’re not, and they’re not bringing their best for those two months. Some people two weeks, some people, two days, some people, two hours, we know people like that. Right. Whereas some whatever hits them again, I’m carving out the really, you know, like true tragedies, but the other more common things that might knock us off they’re back like that. So master number three, mastering resiliency. Number four is learning to reinvent yourself again and again and again. Yeah. So that’s what I call deliberate evolution, especially for people in leadership knowing how you lead today. That’s great. But you can at any moment reinvent your leadership style and let go of the old identity.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and just because like, I think this is a really important piece because you will continue. Every listener is going to continue to grow and get feedback from an organization at some point throughout their career. And I think sometimes things happen to us that could imprint that we take on. I mean, you know, I talk about authentic leadership where we personalize that, and we then judge ourselves as not enough I’m too this, I’m too that. And, you know, in terms of resiliency, like it’s being able to say like, it’s okay, that you may not love that about me. Like, I love this about me. And, but then all also deciding, okay, well I did get that feedback and what do I wanna do with it? Do I want to assign it to myself? Is it relevant? Is it coming from a place of love? Is it, or do I want to say, you know what? I don’t need it, but also always giving yourself permission just because you might have shown up one way, one day doesn’t mean that defines who you are and what you’ll be.

Gosh. Well, can we sing this around the rooftops to people? Because I think this is a big place that people get stuck. We just think that it’s like a definitive, like endpoint, instead of realizing that we’re always growing and that always goofing up. I mean, I’m just gonna do a plug here. If you haven’t read Adam Grant’s Think Again, his book that came out in 2021, all about relearning, all you’re doing is relearning. You’re just relearning. I just wish that people gave themselves the grace to be like, you’re human. So you’re gonna keep growing and you’re actually gonna make so many mistakes, but the more mistakes you make, Hey, the easier it is to be resilient. Like I goof up all the time. Yeah. But it’s hard. Like that’s, that’s the resilience piece is you have to do the work. Like, I guess that’s what I see is you, you have to do the work to be able to bounce back. You’ve gotta do the work!

Will Matthews:

Right. Yeah. And give, you know, and giving yourself. I love, I, I love what you say it. And actually, someone just gave me Adam’s Grant book. I haven’t read it yet. Sitting on my cabinet over here.

Jenn DeWall:

I, I see your second touch means you have to read it.

Will Matthews:

I’m super excited. But you know, and giving yourself permission, right. Is this giving yourself permission to reinvent yourself? There are people on this on this conversation, watching this, who have been leading for years. Right. Right. And, and, and it might be time, you know, it might be time for that next growth cycle. Maybe even growth sounds like too much energy. That’s okay. That you can just give yourself permission to adapt. The question is not, am I a good leader or am I not a good leader? The question is a way that I’m doing this. Is it working? Or is it not working? Yes. Working or not working, not good or bad or all those things. And if it’s, if you find it, what, the way it’s work way I’m doing it is not working. Then it’s okay. Take a breath, give yourself permission to explore. How can I bring in new ideas that will be useful and helpful to make me a more a leader who whose style is actually working at a higher level? That’s the fun part.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Be kind, oh my gosh. I just, I hope that there are so many people that just felt like wrapped in a hug with those words of just like, it’s okay. Like I can figure this out, and it’s new, you know, take a breath. As you said, you are very calm, right? Like, and I’m such a big personality, but it is calm. It’s I love that you just held space. Hopefully, someone feels today that inspiration that I can change. I’m just glad that you shared that. We’re gonna go into our final point. I can’t believe we’re wrapping up this conversation. What are your tips for execution? Because you have to know that better than anyone with the amount of discipline you have, like what tips would you have to share with our audience for execution?

Get Clarity About Your Desired Outcome

Will Matthews:

Yeah. And that’s really where that, that goal setting, you know, everyone. Oh, oh my God. No more talking about goals. It’s been around for so long. And you know, I understand that I have a model that I love and created that it really helps people kind of have more fun with it. But the execution comes down to number one, getting super clear, probably wanna write this down, get super clear first and foremost about what is your outcome? That’s what, you know, it’s not like, what do I have to do. It’s not a to-do list. As I put my hand, literally on a to-do list, because you have to have one.

But when you’re in your execution mode first, it’s not about what you need to do. It’s about, it’s about your outcome. What about that? Where  my overarching desire. What do I want to be better? How do I want to achieve this in a different way? Right. So number one is outcome. Then the second very important piece is it’s still not what to do, but why. What’s my why for that? Why is it a must for me? Right. To deliver that proposal by Friday at one o’clock, if it’s not a must, then, then you’ve got a whole other situation because you’re probably doing work you shouldn’t do. But if it’s a must, if it’s mission critical, why is it a must? What’s it mean that’s where you want to tack your identity, tack your identity, to why that outcome is a must for you. And pretty soon you’re generating all kinds of energy and I believe more mental power to accomplishing that goal.

Jenn DeWall:

No, you can see it like then you’re like, yes, like I can do this. I can add that. I love that. That again, that iterative piece that we just talked about, it’s like, Hey, I want that like, yes. Now I can see this.

Will Matthews:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then finally, so once, you know, your outcome is super clear and, and that’s just a, that’s a mantra for me. And, and I believe that no matter what it is, even as we’ve prepared for our conversation today, I started right out with, and actually, you know, you, I think you worked the same way. Like what is my outcome? Right. That’s a great starting point. Even if you’re going grocery shopping. Right. what is your, what is your outcome? But in more of a leadership role, let’s say you’ve got a, what? Some leaders I could actually own this too. I, I really love the performance review process. You know, when you have a big team and you gotta really, and it takes a lot and it’s like, oh, if you’ve look, if I looked at it like, oh, I to write all these performance reviews, then that’s an energy drain. But if I thought, you know what, this is, if I got the outcome, I want this, I’m gonna do this anyway. You’re gonna do the thing anyway. Right? The performance reviews have to happen as a requirement. I’m gonna do it anyway. So I’m gonna change my focus and put it on an outcome that I want. And that outcome is up as an example, I wanna make sure that the comments I make are supportive of my team members and give them an opportunity to see ways that they can dial up their game.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, if I, every leader could do that, that would be, oh my gosh. I feel like people wouldn’t dread the performance process so much,

Will Matthews:

Exactly.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, please.

Will Matthews:

And every leader can do that. That’s the good news. Right? So anyway, then, then you go, why? Well, what, what’s my why? Well, you know what as an example, our performance review, but you know what? I just want people to know how much I care. I want to dedicate my profession to helping them advance their career. And this is one of the great tools. Great. So now you got your why and is I love the idea of making it a must wherever you can. And then last, so now what do I need to do in order to accomplish that outcome? OK. I need to book time of my calendar to do those. I need to book the one OnOne meetings. I need to do these different things. Then it’s a different energy around that to do list than looking at it and going, oh wow. Why am I even in this profession? Right, right. Yeah. That’s a key execution outcome. Clear about why clear about your, why that you get making a must all the better, and then your plan comes into place.

How to Connect with Will Matthews

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I love that. Will just shared all of the truth bombs as it relates to building success, whether that’s for your team, your organization. His formula that we talked about today, mindset plus skillset plus execution equals success! Will, how can people connect with you? You’re a keynote speaker. You train, I know you help in a variety of ways. How can people connect with you?

Will Matthews:

Great. Well, yeah, well, thanks for that. Number one. Yeah, so my, my website, which I’m imagine will be somehow posted-

Jenn DeWall:

It’ll be in the show notes!

Will Matthews:

But yeah, MatthewsPerformanceGroup.com Matthews with two Ts.  MatthewsPerformanceGroup.com is where you can go to learn about, you know, my keynote speaking opportunities. If I could come to support your team or an association that you’re involved in, I would love it. Have super fun with a couple of different keynote titles. One is- The Game You Must Win Now More Than Ever Before. Coincidentally the same title we have today. Another is Going From Oh No to Let’s Go! Yeah. You are so bringing that kind of energy. So that’s number one. That’s really probably there’s, that’s probably the key place to go. As I know, you know, the book is available on Amazon.

Jenn DeWall:

You’ve Got This!

Will Matthews:

You’ve Got This, The Five Self-Coaching Keys You Need to Live Boldly and Accomplish Anything. So maybe those would be the two best ways for people to reach me. Always anxious to talk to people personally, too. So Will Matthews Performance Group dot com. I’ll be happy to reply.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Send him an email. Maybe bring ’em your challenge will thank you so much for just sharing your expertise your time, but also most importantly, your passion! Your passion for why this matters and wanting success for all of the organizations’ teams and individuals around the world. Thank you so much for being here today.

Will Matthews:

My pleasure. So good to see you, Jenn! Thanks to everybody.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Will! I’m so inspired, just thinking about who I want to be, what type of leader, what type of individual? Now, if you want to connect with will, you can head on over to MatthewsPerformanceGroup.com. There you can find information about his keynotes that I have seen him speak before. I would definitely recommend him for your next event. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn at WillMatthewsYes,  Will MatthewsYes. And of course, don’t forget to get a copy of your book available on Amazon. You’ve got this, the five self-coaching keys. You need to live boldly and accomplish anything. I hope you have a great day. I hope you leave this feeling inspired and I’ll see you next time.

 

The post Business Performance and Mindset: The Game You Must Win Now More Than Ever with Will Matthews appeared first on Crestcom International.

On this week’s episode of the Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn DeWall chats with Robin Daniels about  how to create a workplace culture where employees thrive. Creating an environment where employees thrive is more challenging than ever. Whether your organization is trying to get employees back in the office, or trying to build a sense of community in a virtual or hybrid workplace, you don’t want to miss this episode!

Meet Robin Daniels, Chief Business & Product Officer at Zensai

Robin Daniels is the Chief Business and Product Officer at Zensai, (formerly LMS365), the only AI-powered human success platform focused on learning, performance, and engagement that’s built into Microsoft workplace tools. They help businesses create and deliver effective onboarding, compliance, skills growth, leadership development, deep employee engagement and performance tracking for their employees. 

Robin has 20+ years of executive experience working at top companies, including Matterport, Salesforce, LinkedIn, WeWork, and Box. He played a key role in Matterport and Box’s hyper-growth and eventual public listing and aims to use his decades of growth, marketing, go-to-market, and leadership development experience to make Zensai his third successful IPO.

The Evolution of Workplace Culture and HR

As the episode opens, Jenn and Robin discuss the current state of employee unhappiness. Robin discusses the changes he has seen in the world of HR technology, saying: 

“I’ve noticed few things, you know? The first generation of kind of HR technology or HR philosophy was really around optimizing people for the maximum output of the business. That’s why I think it’s called human resources. 

It’s kind of a very cold term when you think about it, right? Think of people as resources. A lot of it’s about optimizing the throughput of what they do. And also just making sure that we cover the basics, of what they need to be successful. 

Are we paying them? Are they complying with what we need to be complying with? Are they taking their vacation? Are we tracking them? And so on. And I think we realize this is nothing new. 

I think we realized maybe 15 or 20 years ago that this is not enough for the next generation of workers coming into the workforce. We want to make them happier and more successful. We need to change the culture around it. So we thought, well, let’s change the name. Change it from human resources to people and culture.

So now many companies have a people and culture department. And we thought, well, okay, that’s going to change everything by changing its name. Part of that was, oh, let’s also make the office a great place to work with Fussball, free food and snacks and ping-pong tables. 

And you know what? I think it helped somewhat because it at least made you wanna at least come to the office because it wasn’t soulless anymore. And maybe it felt more like a group of people, a tribe of people, a comradery, maybe even a family. 

And it made you maybe feel like you belonged a little bit more. So I think it, it helped, you know, and I was honestly part of that movement when I was at WeWork. I was the chief marketing officer there and trying to say that at an office where people gathered together, it doesn’t have to be sold.” 

Why Are Employees So Unhappy? 

Later in the episode, Robin and Jenn discuss the elements of employee engagement, and what actually creates a positive workplace culture.  Robin explains that he began to realize that there was more to employee happiness than cool office perks: 

“So, let’s get the best out of people by giving them a space where they can thrive. But I think we realized here in 2024 that that’s not really actually solving the root cause of the problem. If you look at pretty much all the data, the root cause is that, like you said, most people are unhappy or they want to quit. 

And if you look at the reasons why, it’s usually because nobody invests in them. They don’t feel like they’re going anywhere in their life or their career. They don’t see any purpose in what they’re doing. Um, and they feel kind of stuck. 

And so when, when you, when you, you dig that well, is a better office space going to solve some of those problems? Probably not, right? I mean, that they’re kind of plastering over the surface of what makes people seem unhappy on the surface.

But if the root cause is that you feel stuck in your life, then free kombucha on tap is not going to help. So we have to address the root, root cause. And it’s one of, the reasons why I’ve created this framework.  

Because the question I would get most as a leader–  I’ve hired hundreds of people, and led thousands of people–  is how do I get ahead? And when people don’t feel like they get a clear answer to that, that’s when you start feeling disengaged or stuck or unhappy. And I started noticing that there are really kind of three, three core elements to it.”

Then Robin shares the three core elements of employee engagement: 

• Clarity around their role’s greater purpose
• A path to career growth
• A sense of belonging

How Leaders Can Build Better Organizational Cultures

Jenn and Robin also delve into some practical strategies for leaders to improve the employee experience. Robin shares that a building positive work culture should be a priority of every leadership team: 

“So just, again, if life was easy and there were easy answers, everyone would be doing it. Basically, I think it’s about leadership. It’s about culture, it’s about accountability. It’s about the values that you have. It’s around using the right processes and also using the right technology and platforms. 

And this is where Zensai comes in as a business. But I’m under no illusion that, oh, if you use our platform, it’s going to solve everything magically. It’s only part of it, right? It’s part of driving deeper employee engagement, giving people purpose and happiness by giving them clarity, goals, and the opportunity to learn the right skills. Those are all important, but honestly, it requires a lot more than that.

It requires leadership to lean in, having clarity around what you’re trying to achieve, having clarity around how you measure people’s use of the values that I go around to these companies. Every company, I’m sure you’ve seen this all the time, has values that they care about here on top five values and accountability and trust and get done and all that kind of stuff. And then what I usually ask, well, how are you holding people accountable to them to make sure that they matter? Uh, I don’t know. They kind of shrugged their shoulder.”

Where to Find Out More About Robin Daniels and Zensai

Be sure to listen to the full episode to get Jenn and Robin’s insights into preventing a toxic workplace culture by taking a fresh look at your recognition programs. To find more from Robin, or to learn more about Zensai, connect with him here: 

• Check out Zensai.com
• Connect with Robin on LinkedIn

Does Your Leadership Team Have the Skills to Build a Workplace Culture Where People Thrive?

As always, thanks for listening to The Leadership Habit Podcast!  If your organization struggles with employee engagement, Crestcom can help! Contact us today to schedule a free 2-hour leadership workshop for your whole team! Visit crestcom.com/freeworkshop to find out more!

The post Create a Workplace Culture Where People Thrive with Robin Daniels appeared first on Crestcom International.

Executive Loneliness and Mental Health with CEO and Author, Nick Jonsson

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Nick Jonsson to discuss a very important topic, how to overcome executive loneliness. Nick Jonsson is the co-founder in managing director of one of Asia’s premier networking organizations, the Executives Global Network, or EGM for short Singapore, a confidential peer group network providing more than 600 senior executives and business owners, a safe haven to share their challenges, receive support, and learn from one another. Nick’s passion for mental health awareness paved the way for Nick to author his first number one international best-selling book, published in April 2021: Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety, and Depression in the Modern Business World. And today, Nick and I will be talking about how you can overcome executive loneliness.

Meet Nick Jonsson, Author of Executive Loneliness

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And today, I am sitting down with Nick Jonsson to talk about an extremely- or what I would argue is an extremely important topic. We are going to be talking about on the podcast today executive loneliness, which is something that many of you might feel like you’ve experienced, or maybe as a leader, you just feel like you don’t really have the support or the confidence. And so today, we have Nick Jonsson to talk all about his book, executive loneliness, how we can address it, how we can identify it, and then what we can do to reduce that executive loneliness to help people feel included. Nick, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. The Leadership Habit today. We are so happy to have you and you joining us from another portion of the world today! Nick, where are you joining us from?

Nick Jonsson:

Hey, good morning, Jenn. I’m dialing in from Singapore. It’s 7:00 am in the morning, the sun is about to go up, it’s fantastic to be here with you. Thank you so much for raising this important conversation today.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Thank you for writing a book on it. I think, you know, I mean, I actually, before we dive into it, because I know I’m going to go so many different ways, but Nick, how, what did your journey look like? How did you get to where you are today?

Nick Jonsson:

So I was born in Sweden, and then I actually went to study in Australia at university. And after that, I worked for almost 20 years in senior management positions in Asia. And through that, I realized when I was a senior executive at the top. I could feel many times it was quite lonely in the decisions. And I made some decisions by myself, big decisions that, when I’m looking back at them, were perhaps not the best decisions. So when I realized this and I went through some very challenging times myself, and when I came through them, looking back at this situation, I realized that I wish I had some support when I was there at the top of these organizations, making the decisions. So that’s when I decided that I needed to do something here. And finally to add to this, Jenn, a friend, a colleague of mine, another senior executive, died of suicide during this time. And that’s when I decided to make it my mission to really go out here and destroy the stigma we have surrounding mental health.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, let’s destroy it! And hopefully, this episode will be another way that we’re going to help people understand that, you know, it’s okay to ask for help. It’s okay to experience mental health challenges. You are not alone. And I’m just so happy, you know, that you are taking, obviously, that story of losing someone so near to you is tragic and how many lives could be saved just by having the conversation. Out of curiosity. What inspired you to write your book on executive loneliness?

Nick Jonsson:

So Jenn, as I started to dig into this topic. And the first thing I did was to do a survey, and I’m fortunate that I’m now the managing director and co-founder of the biggest peer network in age share for senior executives. So I sent out an anonymous survey to this network and asked them basically how they felt about stress, anxiety, and loneliness at work. And I was quite shocked with the findings, and they were also aligned with the global statistics that 30% of executives are lonely. So if 30% are feeling lonely and isolated, then I want to dig deeper. So I then started to interview them also one on one. As for every interview I had, I was more and more shocked as I uncovered what was basically beneath there. And so it’s actually through these surveys and interviews which formed the foundation for this book.

30% of Executives Felt Isolated—And That Was Before the Pandemic

Jenn DeWall:

Wow! 30%! I think that’s a high statistic of just feeling, you know, maybe like you’re on an island. And I know that I struggle if I ever feel, you know, alone. I know my personality style lends it to wanting to connect and collaborate with others. But I can only imagine because you have, at that top level of executive leaders, you likely have some of that, you know, the stress, the pressures that performing at that level in an organization, but then feeling I’m alone and I have to do it all right. Or I’m sure you talked about making decisions. I have to make the right decision, but how do I know? Why do you think it’s important that we address this topic?

Nick Jonsson:

Well, it is certainly during these times also with the pandemic, because the 30% I mentioned was before the pandemic, and I re-did the survey with the same audience now, also during the pandemic, and in December 2020, the number had doubled to 60%. So here we also see, you know, that the loneliness for senior executives has doubled since the beginning of the pandemic. And that was also the perfect timing for me to launch the book last year to really have this as a conversation starter. Because this is what the reality is- the executives are just lonely in the decisions, and they also definitely don’t wanna talk to anyone about it. And the other research I found was that 84% of them would not feel comfortable sharing about their loneliness. They wouldn’t express it to someone in the organization, again, due to the stigma.

The Stigma of Executive Loneliness

Jenn DeWall:

So what do you think it would take her, I guess that stigma? Let’s go into that a little bit more. Why do we think that people just avoid talking about it or don’t bring it up? Is it all just the stigma, or I guess what is the stigma telling them that makes them reluctant to want to talk about it?

Nick Jonsson:

Well, especially here, if you think about that, I’m based in Asia, Singapore. And it’s the regional hub, basically. So if you have been appointed as a regional director for big international firms, and you are running perhaps 20 different companies in Asia, you are the one who’s supposed to be able to handle all the pressures, handle all the, all the work and the different challenges in the region you’re trusted and paid to do that job. So if you’re coming back then to telling your head office back in the US, for example, about your problems, they don’t want to hear about it. They don’t, and you are there to do the job. And that is how many of them feel scared, and they don’t wanna share about it, and so on. And just to add to this, Jenn. The survey findings also found that 75% of them also do not seek any help about it. That means that 84% then are not talking about it in the company. 75% are not even going to ask for professional help. They won’t go and see a psychologist or a doctor because, again, they are scared perhaps that someone will find out.

Jenn DeWall:

Which is that part makes me, you know, just unbelievably sad to know that there are people, you know, I don’t doesn’t matter what their title is to know that someone is struggling and might be experiencing these mental health signs or symptoms, but yet they’re not asking for help. And I think that makes sense because there still are a lot of organizations or firms that maybe you still think that mental health should be something that’s dealt with outside of work, and that work somehow doesn’t have anything to do with it. I, I don’t know why that has come to be or why that ever was somewhat of an expectation that you didn’t have mental health at work. I don’t know. What do you see? Do you feel like it’s more of a, is it an individual or is it really that, that organization not creating the psychological safety, or not breaking down that taboo of what mental health looks like? What do you think it’s been the individual and how they were raised that they weren’t supposed to talk about that?

Nick Jonsson:

Yes, Jenn, it is very much how we are raised. It’s always been that its sort of this stigma and the taboo topic to talk about, and we’ve carried this with us. And then as we wanna protect ourselves in our career, we don’t want, perhaps that colleagues should gossip or find out about it. So we are trying to protect it, and we’re keeping it inside us. Because also, perhaps we don’t wanna burden people around us, but there’s some light here as well, Jenn, with the pandemic. And that is that while a lot of the counseling and therapist was but you had to go visit a physical location before, the fact that we are on Zoom now, a lot of these sessions can happen anonymously. You can lock yourself in your office during the lunch break and have a one-on-one session with the therapist. And that is actually what I’ve included in my book Executive Loneliness. In the last part of the book, I have a lot of resources, contacts and hotlines, and it’s so much support available that most of it are actually free support groups. And so on that, you can join anonymously to get this help. So this is at least a positive move, Jenn.

The Warning Signs of Workplace Loneliness

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I think you bring up a great point that the pandemic really maybe opened the doors to make therapy accessible in maybe a more confidential setting. They could do it, and it could fit into the schedule a little bit easier. I know I personally have seen my therapist over a zoom call. I don’t think it was actually Zoom. It was a different video call software, but I loved it because then I could still see my therapist talk about my challenges, and Hey, I didn’t have to deal with the traffic on the way to get there. You know, it’s convenient, but I appreciated that, you know, Nick, how do you help people understand? Because I think there’s that other piece where maybe people are a little oblivious, or maybe they just aren’t sure how to recognize it. So what are some signs that you might be experiencing workplace loneliness?

Nick Jonsson:

Well, Jenn, you’re absolutely right. Many people will also deny it even to themselves; perhaps it’s very hard to know who’s suffering. And in my book, I call it a smiling depression because it’s are true. If you’re a successful business person, you’re hiding behind that smile, that facade. But it’s also true. Jenn, if you think about all the celebrities and we see so many of these days stepping forward, though, to say that they actually were suffering or are suffering. So in that sense, it’s very hard to find out who’s actually going through some challenges, but there are a few things to look for. One is definitely if they are isolating themselves if they’re cutting themselves off from groups. If they’re not showing up when they are supposed to, that’s one warning sign. If you arrange, for example, a coffee morning with the ladies and the same person, don’t show up a few times. That’s one warning sign that we see.

Others can be that the person is losing or gaining a lot of weight, perhaps losing interest in hobbies. If they used to cook, if your husband used to cook every Tuesday night for 20 years, suddenly he stops this, then something is going on. Or perhaps if you used to play guitar for many years every day, there was your habit that you did that well, for now, you stop this, or a mother perhaps is losing interest in parenting for her baby someone who you see pick up some bad habits. Addictions. We have seen gambling. We have seen alcohol, drugs, addiction and habits all spiking through the pandemic. So if you see some of your friends or loved ones, you perhaps starting to drink too frequently, that’s something to look for. And the last one is, yeah, if the anger and temperament obviously are linked to all of this. So if you see someone who’s losing their temper too frequently, those are all signs to see if you can try to help.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I can relate to some of those. I can think about the peak, maybe peak stress times throughout my career, or with different positions where I definitely can relate to the isolating. And I think from my experience isolating, if I’ve ever felt excluded or not the valued or not enough, right? That could be a result of the cultural feedback. It doesn’t matter. Then I know, even though I’m a social person, my natural tendency is to want to avoid, to not be seen, to just be on my own, to do my job, you know, come in, leave, and hopefully do it all unseen. Initially, that isolation for me, I think felt it felt like it was the right thing to do. It felt like I was trying to help myself, but every time I did that, I would actually just be making myself feel worse because I, I want to connect with others. And I don’t know if any of our listeners can relate with that feeling like we do it initially out of a beautiful place of self-protection, but then we don’t recognize that we’re actually committing more self-harm that could be making it worse. I’m curious what is your take on that?

Smiling Depression and Executive Loneliness

Nick Jonsson:

Yes, it’s very interesting, Jenn and indeed. And when I went through my challenges myself a few years ago, I realized that I had looked lost the connection within myself. If you cannot feel connected with yourself and well and happy with yourself, how can you possibly connect and feel great with another person? It’s just impossible. So that means that you can actually feel lonely in the middle of the room of your family and friends because you lost it inside you. So that explains exactly what you just mentioned and that you were even in if you were with your friends and so on, you didn’t feel connected at that moment. So, therefore, we have to start the journey of recovery internally, and once we have recovered internally, then perhaps we can add on the external relationship. So it’s a journey we walk through, and I take it actually in my book. I outline it as five different steps. It’s like a pathway to follow, and it starts within before you can go external.

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, let’s go. Let’s go into that. I would love to talk about how do you recover. And I mean, I think the other important piece that you had mentioned or implied is that wherever you are right now if you’re reflecting on this and you’re maybe identifying yourself as experiencing this or feeling like you’re having some symptoms of mental health, know that you’re not alone and that this doesn’t determine who you are, you know, for the rest of your life. I think that’s a piece I wanna go into. How can you overcome it? But there are so many people, or I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience where you feel a tremendous amount of shame or just that feeling of what is wrong with me for having these feelings? That self-judgment that comes in so strong. And I think in how I experience depression and anxiety is again, I’m just piling on.

Jenn DeWall:

I might have depression and anxiety, which I do, but then I feel a tremendous amount of shame, or I am, you know, fundamentally flawed or something because I have it. And I love that you talked about kind of that. I forget how you phrased it, the smiling depression because I’m often one of the people that they might think, oh my gosh, but she’s happy. And she laughs, and she’s smiles. Hey, that just means that I may not be sharing it. And I am pretty, you know, I, I have the outlets that I do talk about that, but I’m often one person that people think she’s too happy to be depressed. She’s too happy to have that. And that’s, you know, you can’t just assume that because someone’s putting on that happy disposition, that they’re never going to experience something like that. I don’t know if you see that where people are just like, I couldn’t possibly be that! No way!

Nick Jonsson:

Yes. That’s absolutely true, Jenn. Yeah. I call it the smiling depression in my book, and it, it, it’s definitely true. And especially if you look at famous people, successful people, they are trained, and they can really hold it. You can never ever see anything. And that’s always the first sad thing when we lose someone, we, everyone would first say, oh, we had no idea that he was so happy. He looked so great. And, and so on. That’s always the same story. And it’s just so sad. So it’s very true, Jenn. It’s impossible to see who’s actually smiling, smiling, and then suffering behind that.

The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Executive Loneliness

Jenn DeWall:

And so let’s talk about how do you overcome it? How do you begin if you’re seeing yourself in this story, or maybe noticing some ways that you’re, you know, pulling yourself or moving and isolating, or if you’re picking up different habits or losing interest, how do you start to overcome it? Where what’s that starting point look like?

Nick Jonsson:

So that’s exactly what I laid out then in my book, and I, through my interviews and the surveys and talking with executives, also interviewed a lot of executives who have gone through it themselves. And since I also went through my own recovery, but the first step though, if I talk you briefly through the five steps, the first step is taking stock. It is about writing down what’s going on in your life. You have issues like in my case. For example, I had picked up too much alcohol. I gained weight from that. My blood results were not good. So I had to go and see a doctor later on. So the first step is taking stock. The second then is asking for help. I went to the doctor. So if you perhaps I’ve taken stock that you have some anxiety attacks and so on, then it is to talk to a therapist.

Nick Jonsson:

It is then asking for help. So then the third step is getting healthy. So really removing the illnesses or whatever you have in your body so that you are well internally. And then the fourth step is nurturing healthy relationships. So that’s about once you’re healed. Then on the first step, internally only on the fourth step, you can go externally to repair the relationships. Perhaps you have avoided people, perhaps you have avoided your friends. Perhaps also because you’ve not been well, you might have said something bad to some friends. Maybe you made some enemies, and it’s time to repair those relationships so that you can feel better about yourself. And then the final step I say is about finding your purpose in life. What is it that excites you? And from there on things, things really follow.

Taking Stock of Where You Are

Jenn DeWall:

I wanna go back to step one, you know, taking stock of where you are in the moment because I think that there’s the piece around, self-awareness where I think people still may not recognize that they’re showing up in this way. And so how do you teach that person that’s been taught to, you know, not pay attention to your emotions, to keep those out of the workplace? How do you help them recognize? I’m curious if you have any tips to help them understand the feelings that they’re having, even though they’ve been told maybe their whole life that they shouldn’t have those feelings.

Nick Jonsson:

Yeah. So, Jenn, I had the pleasure of going through An anonymous 12 step program and taking stock was a big part of that. There, it was called a moral inventory. So the first step is then taking, in my case, I had the pleasure of going through a 12 step recovery program, and in the program, we were actually guided to do this. And there, we were given an empty spreadsheet in Excel, and we were asked to write down everything. And this was then called a moral inventory. So we had to spend a few weeks really writing everything we could think about. And, and then we would talk that through with someone who’d gone through it before, and they would be guiding us.

Jenn DeWall:

I got. I love that. And maybe even taking stock of what are the things that are keeping you up at night, the things that, you know, won’t allow you to fall asleep or what your triggers are throughout the day. And why are you triggered? What’s coming up for you? I think that’s the piece that people forget to bridge the gap. They might understand that they’re triggered or something happened, and they reacted in a certain way, but then they don’t realize that they can control the trigger. I think going through and writing all of those down is a fantastic way to just start to be curious with yourself. And I know that you’re not saying this, so I, and I wanna reinforce it. You’re not saying to write it all down to judge yourself. So when you’re starting to do this, it’s not so you can find this piece of paper and say, wow, really getting things wrong in life. No, it’s to understand what could be at the undercarriage, what could be the things that are keeping you stuck or, you know, making it challenging. It’s not to say, you know, to come to a conclusion that in some way, you’re not enough; it’s to say, to come to a conclusion, maybe this is an opportunity to do something about this.

Nick Jonsson:

Absolutely. And then later on in, in this step four there, to repair relationships you are actually coming back to that list and, and, and making amends for relationships that you had perhaps broken. And what I was surprised about in that first step, when I wrote down this inventory, was that I was after to go back to my childhood to really go deep inside myself. It might be things that, you know, you uncover then that happened a long time ago. And there was one particular incident with my sister I wrote down, and I can remember that happening a few years ago. And it, it was just an incident. We were at the dining table, and my son was quite young at the time, and my sister gave him a Coca-Cola, and he had never had a soda in his whole life, and I remember becoming quite upset, and I stormed off the table, and I just left. I didn’t say anything. And that incident had stayed with me for many years, and I felt so bad about it, but I never apologized for it. So I went back to my sister, and I made amends and apologized for that just recently, actually. And I was so surprised when I mentioned it to her that she couldn’t even remember the incident. She had forgotten all about it. For her, it was nothing for me. I walked around carrying this burden within my heart for a few years, avoiding my sister a little bit. I felt that we were not so close, and it was all in my mind. So after I made that amends, that meant our relationship flourished again.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh, I, that is a really great example of, you know, the importance of, I guess, I think there’s that piece of fact-checking. I know one of the things that I’m sure I see with clients, I know I’m sure you do too, is that it can feel so true to us because it’s inside of our brain. It’s the story that we’re writing in, reinforcing every day that it becomes the difference between true and the truth. And your truth was that your sister was upset with you. And I’m sure, so many people can relate to those moments where we might have had an overreaction. We didn’t show up as the person that we wanted, and we just felt that guilt and shame or frustration with ourselves, but then to think, Hey, did I actually check this? Did I confirm whether or not this story is real? And then going there and talking to your sister and finding that she didn’t, that was not a moment in her way or in her life in the same way that it was in yours. She wasn’t up at night thinking about that. What a beautiful gift. How did that, I guess? What type of release did you have you found out from your sister that she wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t something that she was holding onto? What did that do for you by finally going in and checking that out?

Nick Jonsson:

Oh, it makes you sleep much better at night, Jenn! And just as these, you know, you, the boxes and I went through about 30, 40 of these instances, it might have also been another story, you know, where I was laid off from my job for whatever reason. And I had resentments against my previous boss and later on, had to go back to him now and have another cup of coffee and discuss this, you know, what happened and to just clear the situation, and for every like that, something just lifted from my shoulders, and I felt lighter. I felt better. And again, yeah, I slept better at night, so it doesn’t take much. It takes about, you know, just looking back at that at that inventory. And then later on going over them one by one and ticking the boxes. But I want to say one thing, I was blessed that I had someone who done it before, who took me through this, but Jenn, this is what all the coaches are there for as well. There’s so many people who can help us if, if we don’t know how to do this. And in my book, I also have some tips and tricks how you can do it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I wanna go into talking about the resources that you have!

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Practice Asking for Help

Jenn DeWall:

What was step two? So taking stock, where do we land that on step two? Because I wanna dive into that a little bit more in terms of how you can go through it. And I had to come back to taking stock. Because I think that’s the one that people still may not realize.

Nick Jonsson:

Yes. So step two is asking for help. So in my case, then I definitely needed to see a doctor because I was not healthy, I had not eaten well, I stopped the exercise. I gained a lot of weight, and yeah, I was consuming too much alcohol, and I was shy about it, but here seeing the doctor, I had to be honest because it was clear on the blood results. So actually didn’t

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, you can’t get ahead of that one. The doctor knew something wasn’t right!

Nick Jonsson:

So then, I needed to seek help also for my alcohol problem. So I went to see also support group that helped me with alcohol addiction that I had picked up during this time. And through that, I gave a lot of confidence, and I started to address other areas in my life. I had, of course, then some issues, as I mentioned with relationships, and there, I also needed some professional help. I had gone through a divorce during this time, and my relationship with my ex-wife was not the best my son lived with her. So I also need to see a family, and we worked through everything, and I also repaired all those relationships and we have a very, very good contact and good relationships today.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a, I really appreciate you sharing, not only being vulnerable and sharing the challenges or obstacles that you had gone through but also, you know, showing what it can look like on the other side, when we actually, instead of maybe just worrying about it or stressing about it. When we actually maybe would it be taking responsibility for it and saying, you know, asking for help? That’s what you’re saying is, you know, recognize it. Or one of my favorite quotes is you have to own it to control it. If you don’t own it, then you don’t get to do anything with it. Then it’s going to keep controlling you. And once you can own that and ask for help, but again, do you think, why do you think people don’t ask for help? I know this could go into, you know, the stigma with it, but why else don’t we ask for help? Because we talked about a few of those instances, I would love to talk a little bit more about this because I think it is a big area where people get stuck.

Nick Jonsson:

Yeah. They don’t even know what they should ask for help with. Because if you didn’t do step one, if you didn’t do that inventory, you don’t know what you have. It’s like, imagine if you’re running a, a, a store, but you don’t know what you have in stock. How can you even sell something? Right. So it’s here that in order to ask for help, you have to have it on this piece of paper and really analyze it and then go list by go one by one and ask for help and sorting every single step out and don’t skip anything. You have to be absolutely brutal with yourself and be honest with yourself and say to yourself, time to stop this bull and, and just, you know, really address it one by one.

And as I said, not everything has to cost money because I know a lot of listeners may think, oh, that’s too expensive, out there are so many anonymous charity organizations addressing these issues. If it’s overeating, if it is smoking, whatever it is, there are so many networks are there to help you and go to those networks and, and, and ask for help. But the challenge of think, Jenn and here is the core issues that people are just scared to ask for help. So we need to practice that muscle. And that’s what I did by seeing the doctor then an anonymous group for the alcohol issue. And that gave me the confidence to address my relationship with my ex-wife with my son. And from there, I didn’t stop. I just continued to address everything I had on the list and just felt better about it.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s, you know, asking for help. It’s I think, you know, again, people don’t ask for it, they feel like there’s some type of judgment or they’ve created that story, and it’s gotten worse and worse. And I feel for me, I initially, I think when I suffered in silence, that’s when I tried to repress or I would just be driving home from work and I’d be crying or feeling that I would, I would try to hide it. And then I feel like it would be worse. Like I would almost be that much more reactive. I would kind of be that volcano. So then, you know, when you’d got to that next layer and I actually couldn’t keep it in anymore, I would explode. But then, every time I exploded, I felt better. And I think my goal with my mental health is now starting to say and give myself that, you know, permission I can ask for help.

The Importance of Being Vulnerable

Jenn DeWall:

I can talk about my emotions. I can talk about being triggered by something. I deserve to have a space to have and hold my emotions. And now that I’ve given myself that, I think it’s easier for me to talk about other things because I don’t paint them in the way that I used to, as something that makes me flawed, wrong, less than their feelings that I’m having in a moment in time. Some of them might, you know, go back to my childhood or different traumas and experiences. But I now try, I try so hard to address things at the moment because I know that if I don’t, that it obviously will be the volcano, but then every single time I address them, things just feel better or things get resolved in a different way, or there’s a different level of understanding and curiosity that I can have for those that I’m interacting with.

I don’t know. I mean, I feel like you also get forgiveness when you can let things go, and you know, not holding that resentment, which yeah—going back to the relationships, the avoiding step four, right. But things, how can we go back and make amends? How can we think about that? And you likely have hurt someone in your life or not shown up in an ideal way. Again, we’re perfectly imperfect. I think. What do you think that that, or I guess, how do you notice and do you notice this from you where you sit in the executives, you, you oversee, is there a strong notion of that perfectionism of, I have to be everything to everyone. I have to do it all right. You know, right now, and then I’m not gonna admit a mistake because then it means I’m not perfect. So then that means I’m not going to address and try to nurture and, you know, maintain that relationship with someone. I don’t know. Do you see perfectionism in your side, like in the interactions in the or individuals that you work with?

Nick Jonsson:

Yes, certainly Jenn,

Jenn DeWall:

Or is it just a US-centered viewpoint? I have no idea. I, this is what I love to ask these questions.

Nick Jonsson:

Yes. No, certainly Jenn, no, this is indeed a global thing. And perhaps it’s even a bigger thing in Asia. Imagine if you are an ex-pat coming from the US, you’re living and working in Asia, perhaps you stay a little bit in your ex-pat bubble. You don’t integrate exactly with the locals, perhaps due to language, cultural differences and so on. So there’s a much bigger distance already between you and the colleagues in your office. You might have less understanding for each other. So, therefore, there will be more conflict, more misunderstandings and even more challenges as well in the relationships. And there will be times when you perhaps are too busy and you, you are laying off people, but you might not do it in the right way. And you’re probably hurting a lot of people along the way. And if you don’t do that in a nice, or in, in the correct way, then it’ll come and hound you later on, and people will feel bad about it. And I remember when I was laid off from one job, I was crying, but also, my boss was crying. And that’s perhaps is how things are right. And the, we just need to try to do it in a less harmful way for the other party. But we have to remember that if we don’t do it in the best way, then we are only gonna hurt ourselves because we are human beings, after all.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And why do we forget that sometimes? Everyone is doing their best. That we all have challenges that we all have feelings. We’re humans. I think it’s so interesting in the era of leadership that we forget to give ourselves grace for being a human being that is someone that is going to do their best but ultimately won’t always make the best choices. It might not say the right communication. That’s the reality of life. I, you know, we don’t get to get away from that or escape that, but I know we’re gonna get into our, like before we get into a final question, I want to kinda go back to step five. Purpose. How is purpose important to being able to manage executive loneliness, to help in that connection? Why is a purpose for having one a significant part of that?

Nick Jonsson:

Well, I think that when you are a senior executive or a business owner, and you’re running something, many senior executives have a very big ego, and many people are used to being the one to tell everyone what to do. And I think that this is one of the challenges when we’re talking about this topic because it’s very hard for a senior executive to admit their mistakes. And they believe that they run the show to the point where perhaps, they’re not grounded enough. And that’s what we see many times. That, you know, they, they are perhaps too bossy and not, not open for suggestions and so on. And therefore, you know, it, it’s very hard for them to admit any failures they have or any challenges they have. So when it comes to purpose, I believe it’s important to imagine that you are not the most powerful person in the world. You’re not the one running the show. That you have to believe, and what I’m coming to is that there is a power greater than yourself. Are you the center of the universe? Then you ought to get a lot of trouble for it. That is my fair sense of purpose.

Jenn DeWall:

No, you have to know that’s your grounding. That’s your compass of understanding how to show up. And I don’t know if we can put something in there about within your purpose, also allow yourself to be imperfect because yeah, you’re not, you know, rewriting that definition of what it means to be a success, a successful executive or leader. It doesn’t mean doing 100% of the things, right? 100% of the time, it means and curious, leading with empathy, continuing to learn and grow. There are so many more things that that can mean. So let’s bring it back to what you can do. Maybe if you’re noticing someone in your organization that’s going through maybe symptoms of mental health, how do you support others? How can I as a leader? How can you, as a leader, can we support one another to address and address these mental health challenges?

Addressing Mental Health in an Organization Starts at the Top

Nick Jonsson:

Well, the challenge is Jenn. If you don’t have a relationship with this person built up by now and you see someone who’s suffering, they’re most likely not gonna share anything with you. So it’s very important to be proactive here and break down these walls and the barriers beforehand to really build warm relationships. And it all starts with you being vulnerable by yourself. And what I’ve seen in an organization is it has to start from the top. If you, as a leader of an organization, are not vulnerable with your teams, you cannot expect them to be vulnerable with you. And if I may just mention a story, Jenn, from a book, I interviewed a, a managing director, a lady for a big bank in a big international bank. And she had worked her way up to the top in this male-dominated industry and elbowing herself, working extremely hard.

Nick Jonsson:

And basically, to quote herself, she said, I was a bitch. She pushed people away, but she pleased the bosses. She got the pay rises and what she was living on the paper. And what people saw was the dream. She would have a driver. She had the nanny, children in private school and everything else. She lived in a beautiful apartment, and everyone just adored the life she had, but inside she felt lonely and she felt isolated. Then when she had a, a, an accident, she had to have surgery on her face. She lost her confidence completely. And after that, she started to push people away further. So her team was pushed away further. Her husband at home was pushed away, and it went so far that she actually started to plan her own suicide. So when I interviewed her for the book, the first time she just opened up a little bit and she did, and she didn’t disclose everything.

Nick Jonsson:

But then a week later, she called me and we met for another coffee when she told me this. And I then managed to encourage her to to see a therapist. And she opened up to the therapist about this date, then discussed with her husband, sorted out these issues. And when the book came out and she was anonymous in the book, she, she bought a copy of the book and shared with her team members, asked them to read it. And then they had an open-door meeting and discussed it. And she said, by the way, that article there, the woman in the bank that’s me and they were all completely shocked. So that was basically the, the opening to this. And after this, they’ve had an open door policy. Her boss even came in and shared with her also that he went through challenges. So this is my point. Again, you have to be open, and you have to discuss things. Cause when you break down that stigma, and you have a warm open environment, then everyone can talk about everything.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. When you talk about it, then it gives people permission to also have those feelings to also be triggered or have a life that’s happening outside of work. It’s so interesting. Rarely if ever, have I ever observed a situation where someone was vulnerable and sharing a piece of themselves to be met with, you know, that judgment or, oh my gosh. That’s so, you know, I feel like more often than not, when someone does reveal that, then you do you empathize. I think that teaches you that at we’re humans, you can understand to be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. And that we all have, you know, information about others, but we’re also missing a lot of information or that, that vantage point into what they’re going through. I love that story of the executive because yeah, we paint a lot of stories about how everyone else has it better, and that’s simply not true. It’s just that we may not talk about it, but when you can start that conversation and, and please do not, this is what I cannot handle, Nick – is when this is going to be something that we’re talking about, because we feel like we should do it. Don’t pretend to talk about mental health. Do not pretend to talk about it because of it, something that you might be hearing or learning more about, you have to actually have a point of view. And also, I don’t notice, I don’t know if you ever see this, but sometimes in a room, I might have someone say, I’ve never thought that stuff. And the second that you say that you’re also triggering to people that there’s something wrong with them. So be mindful maybe if you can’t relate to the same extent, understand that everyone’s journey is their own.

Overcoming Resistance to Talking About Loneliness

Jenn DeWall:

And that just because they’re going through something different doesn’t mean there’s something fundamentally wrong or that you’re winning it life because you’re not going through that. I don’t know. Those are probably two of my public service announcements is to make sure that you’re not just doing this because you want to be an attractive company to work for. You want to actually do it. And then two that don’t sit here and pretend, Ugh, I’ve never had that before. Because then you’re only going to further isolate yourself or those from, I guess, each other, other colleagues, I don’t know. Do you see that in the judgment land of people? Like, do you ever notice that? I feel like there’s always one person that’s like, I’ve never went through that before. And I think it’s a lie. I don’t believe them when they say that. I just think that they don’t want to know because they’re trying to keep that illusion of perfection. I’m curious. Do you see that?

Nick Jonsson:

Yes, Jenn, I, we also had this conversation in some sessions at work with the members in the senior executives and yeah, you’ll always get a, you know great topic, but it’s not so interesting for me, or it’s not relevant for me. So yeah, it’s very much that denial. And you know, and the way I see it, and then I come back to them. So, well, that’s great that you are, you are feeling so grounded and connected! But what about those around you? Don’t you have, you know, your team or about your family and friends. I think you should join this conversation anyway because there might be someone around you. You can help. And that’s the way to get people into this conversation as well. Because then how can you, they turn around and say, no, I don’t care about my team. I don’t care about my friends. I don’t care about my family. So no, thank you.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a, a great, that’s a great idea how to approach it because I think you hit in terms of the language that they use. Like, oh, this is nice, but not for me. I just laugh. Cause I, I just think what the heck, we all have stuff, our brain is firing out all these thoughts. We’ve lived a life. We will have some of these things. Nick I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. And I know there’s so many things that I wish I could even go into as it relates to this topic. And maybe we bring you back and we talk more about how this relates back to diversity, equity and inclusion, but really creating that sense of belonging at work and why this is so important today. But I know that we don’t have time for that, but Nick, how could people get in touch with you? You, where can they book or how can they, how can they connect with you outside of this podcast? Because you need to talk to Nick. Nick is opening up the doors to very important conversations that need to be had and no longer should we lose people to suicide or other challenges as they relate back to mental health. We want to offer support to people. So how, how can they get in touch with you?

Where to Find Nick Jonsson

Nick Jonsson:

Well the easiest way is to look me up on LinkedIn. My name is Nick Jonsson, and it’s spelled N I C K J O N S S O N. So they can follow me on LinkedIn. I share a lot of my articles and stories around the topic there. And otherwise, if someone is interested in the book, they can be, go to Amazon or Audible. It’s on all these platforms. So apple books also, and just look up executive loneliness.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Thank you so much for writing this book, and thank you for joining us to have this very, very important conversation.

Nick Jonsson:

And thank you so much, Jenn, for inviting me and for covering it.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I truly hope that you enjoyed my conversation with Nick on this very important topic. If you want to know more. Well, the first thing is to think about something that’s on your mind. Something that’s keeping you awake at night write it down and think about who you can share this problem with. Maybe this is a potential opportunity to connect with Nick. You can find additional information about Nick by going to ExecutiveLonelinessBook.com. There you can purchase his book, and you can also connect with him on LinkedIn and you can find his LinkedIn connection in the show notes. Until next time.

 

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The Four Pillars of Leadership with Leadership Coach Nils Vinje

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down and talked with Nils Vinje. Nils accelerated from an individual contributor to vice president in 30 months. And every team that he ran became a high-performing team. So what did he do? He deduced this experience down to a process, a process that formed the foundation around his leadership coaching. Once Nils started using his playbook, the results were remarkable. Join Host Jenn DeWall as she talks to Nils about his playbook, the 30 Day Leadership Playbook and the four pillars of leadership. Enjoy the conversation.

Meet Nils Vinje, Leadership Coach and Author

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am so excited to have the one and only Nils Vinje! Nils and I are going to be talking about a lot of different things as it relates to a leader. We’re going to be talking to Nils about how you approach leadership. We’re going to be talking about techniques to make your leadership style, hopefully, more impactful more influential. We’re gonna be talking about a lot of different things and what you call your pillars of success or your pillars of leadership. And I’m so excited to bring that to the audience, but before we even go forward, I have to ask, I love the origin stories. I wanna know. How did you come to be? How did you come to be a leadership coach? You have all this experience within customer service as well. I mean, you have such a great diverse background. I wanna know. How did you come to be today? What, what would, what did that, I guess career progression look like?

Nils Vinje:

Hi, Jenn. Well, thank you so much for having me on as a guest. Super excited to dig into all things leadership, and I love this as an opening question. I think it’s a fascinating story just because there is no one perfect path. And I, I do stress that with everybody I’ve always worked with, there is no one defined perfect path for anyone. And I’m a perfect example of that. So the first ten years or so of my professional career, I had no idea where I fit in the professional world. I literally bounced around and did every job, from being a software engineer, which I was absolutely terrible at, to being a Xerox sales rep. I actually went door to door selling copiers, if you can believe that! It was just as painful as it sounds. There are some people in the world who are cut out for that. I, however, was not one. And I’ve learned that lesson very, very quickly. And it was quite an interesting experience. So I got to the point where I was like, I have no idea where I fit. I’ve tried everything stints in marketing and sales, engineering solutions, consulting, consulting, you name it. I tried it. And then I got fed up, and I did what all people do when they get fed up. I went back to school,

I got an MBA in management and organizational behavior. And that’s when the light bulbs started to go off. And I realized that that point, which was shocking to me that the whole field of management and the whole field of leadership had an entire science and industry research, everything behind it. Yet, the people that I worked for in the organizations that it worked at for that ten years, never really knew anything about this. And I was compelled and driven to bring great leadership back to the companies that I worked for after grad school. So I went, got back into the working world. I was part-time. I was working full-time, sorry, going to school part-time and then accelerated the second half of the program and took a little break. I got back into my first role is what’s called a customer success manager. Now in the B2B SaaS world. This is the team and the individuals who are responsible for the customer post-sale. So when’s sales team goes out and sells a deal. Then the customer success team takes over and works with those customers to ensure they get onboarded, the software gets integrated, they ultimately get value and they renew and expand their contracts. So this was finally where I felt like I fit in the world. All of a sudden, all those little skills, the sales piece from Xerox, the technical skills from trying to be a software engineer, the solutions consulting, sales, engineering, all those skills were needed in this role to serve the needs of the client. And that for me was like just awesome. It was just amazing.

So from that point, I went on a very fast track because my alignment with the work was tremendous. My passion for this field was amazing, and it was a very, very just nascent field. It barely even existed. This was 10 years ago, and I went from an individual contributor to a vice president in two and a half years. I was so driven and had the previous 10 years of knowing what I didn’t wanna do that. Once I found the right fit, everything went up into the right now; at the beginning of this time, I also became a certified leadership coach and began to coach people on the evenings weekends whenever I could. I started coaching people outside of work. I started coaching people inside of work. Whenever I brought up the topic like, Hey, I’m, I’m a coach. They’d be like, oh, tell me more about that. They were always really interested in it, and I would share, and I’d ask ’em some questions and say, well, there might be some opportunity for me to help you. And then we’d go on. And that was the way it went for many years when I formed my consulting business in 2015. That was when I took all my expertise in the customer success base and said, I wanna help more companies build great customer success organizations. And I also did a lot of leadership coaching, but it was never at the forefront. It was always an add on to the projects and I didn’t really ever know how to make it the primary thing until the pandemic happened. And when the pandemic happened, my consulting business went to zero in about 48 hours because it was all built on very high touch, one on one close relationships. And you might imagine it was a tough time. And I had to look at my skill set, look at the things that I could do, the value I could bring to the market, the market I was bringing it to.

And I decided to pivot my business to focus more on the leadership development. And that’s what drove me to write my book 30 Day Leadership Playbook, which we’re gonna get into more. And then ultimately build a program called the B2B Leaders Academy and run a top rank podcast called the B2B leadership podcast. So there is no one perfect path that I took to get to this point. It is the amalgamation of all kinds of different experimentation and really never being willing to settle for anything less than. And I thought was exceptional in those jobs, in my roles, in my company, looking at everything with fresh perspective and trying to adapt to the situation as best I could.

Jenn DeWall:

That is a phenomenal story, especially around, you know, I know people hate this word, but , the “pivot” or adapting, right? Making, Hey, you know what I, my business went from blank to not really,

Nils Vinje:

It was really good, right. It disappeared.

The Importance of Leadership Development

Jenn DeWall:

And there are many people that were faced with that crossroads. Yes. Do you keep pushing and figure out a new way? Do you, you know, decide to close up, shop, go a different way, end it all, whatever that might be. But one of the things that I love that you even cheered, because I think it’s just an important conversation is just how a leadership is initially formed to us earlier in our careers and how that, you know, you and I talked about this in the pre-call about just the different observations of kind of the, wow, why is leadership maybe lacking in these huge organizations where you would think they have the resources to be able to, you know, invest in this development, but yet it kind of still falls in those, you know it’s a nice to have.

Nils Vinje:

It’s a nice to have. We don’t have time to do it, we’re busy.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that because there’s, I know I love that story of observing that and recognizing it, there’s gotta be a better way. And so if you are in an organization, you know, here’s your opportunity to either advocate for leadership development or to recognize like, Hey, there’s other organizations that are going to place us at the forefront. You may have some leaders that maybe could benefit from training, but you know, don’t personalize those things. I look like to look at that as research that then researches, what would you do differently? How could you engage and influence? But I love that you said there’s not one defined path because we always get to choose it. We always get to reinvent ourselves. You’re only one with the limits.

Are You the CEO of Your Career?

Nils Vinje:

That’s right. That’s right. And, and that, that is, that was not apparent to me until the time that I went back to grad school. Because up until that point, I had never seriously invested in myself. I waited for my company to provide training for me. I waited for them to tell me what to do. I was in the backseat. There was a, a Saturday morning in, early in grad school when we’d have outside speakers come in and they’d spend a couple hours with us on Saturday morning. It was a really cool experience and great opportunities. And this one speaker came in on one Saturday morning, first semester. I’ll never forget. It was sitting in the audience couple hundred people. And the speaker walks out on stage, stands, square, right in the middle looks directly in the audience. I felt like he was like looking into my soul and he asked one very powerful question. He said, are you the CEO of your career? Ha. And I went the what? Excuse me?

Me, hold on. And in that moment, my entire professional career flashed before my eyes, I literally saw all these situations and things. And I began to get angry with myself, sitting in that chair. And the resenting answer that came outta my mouth at that time was no, I’m not. And I was so angry with myself, having never been asked question, having never asked this question myself, that it was the turning point where in that moment in that chair, that Saturday morning, I made the commitment to never, ever not be the CEO of my career. And from that point on any investment in myself was a hundred percent my responsibility. I was never gonna wait for a company. I was never gonna wait for a boss. I was never gonna wait. Somebody reimburse me. I was going to make the investment well matter what it took and get to what I wanted to do, cuz I was the only one in charge cuz I am the CEO of my career. And I flipped the script that day. And that was a huge pivotal moment for me.

Jenn DeWall:

What a powerful story of just taking charge or having that awareness, you know, that all took was one question to make you think, oh my goodness. And being engaged, being open to that question, right. Not looking at it as I don’t need to reflect on that. I love that and how that completely altered different paths and choices and also recognizing you always get to choose it. That’s right. So powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Nils Vinje:

My pleasure.

Jenn DeWall:

Go on, oh, go ahead.

Nils Vinje:

That was just that one. I mean that sentiment of one being open to question, but just the, the power that even just one question has. You know, and that’s a core, you know, leadership fundamental piece too, is if you have better questions, you will get better engagement, better responses. And this example is perfect. One single question was worth it, is worth, you know, what it add up to the last 15 years of my career and the success that I’ve had and the things that I’ve gone on to do came from that one powerful question. If that leader had started off that presentation any differently, I might have been on a completely different trajectory than this point, but I’m very thankful for that. And I think as leaders, we always need to keep that in mind that, you know, the questions that we ask have the ability to positively, or certainly negatively impact the people’s lives that work for us. And that is why it is so important to ask the right kinds of questions, to put yourself in the right situation, to help other people transform and see, just like in my example here.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that there are so many, you know, I hear, and I’m sure you have two in your experience as a leadership coach at a pain point for some leaders, maybe that they feel like people aren’t driving the career or taking the lead and growing it. And I feel like that is the best question that they should all ask their team. Are you the CEO in your career? Yeah. Instead of just waiting for maybe that leader to figure it out, like, are you the one that’s driving that? You know, are you taking initiative? I think you just gave people a powerful tool because it’s much more impactful than, are you happy here? Yeah.

Nils Vinje:

I’m happy today. I might not be happy tomorrow. That’s a, you know, it’s not gonna get you very far. That’s a, a generic question. But when you ask something much more powerful it opens the doors and you know, then there’s an honest conversation about what does it even mean to be the CEO of my career, hang on. And most of the people, you know, I share this regardless of their first time managers, directors, VPs, even C-level people, this one resonates in incredibly well with everybody because there are points in time where you may have taken control and then there’s points in time where you likely have let it go as well. So if you’re in one of those points in time where you’ve let it go, or you’re not quite sure what to do, right. Take a step back and ask yourself the question. Well, as a CEO of my career, like what’s the strategic decision that’s gonna make the difference for me and what I want to do, irrespective of the environment what’s going on with my company, my teams, other things, what is it that I’m going to be able to do to get to contribute the most amount of value to everybody else?

The Four Pillars of Leadership

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. I think this is a powerful segue into being the, talking about being the CEO in your career. It also starts with thinking about the type of leader that you want to be. How do you wanna show up? What type of impact or influence do you want to have? And you have four pillars or I guess I just wanna hear kind of your framework around how you approach leadership in your business with your clients. How do you start to approach leadership to help people develop that soft skillset, hard skillset and just have that competence to lead.

Nils Vinje:

Thank you. Yeah, leadership is big, big topic, right? And so what I do is break it down into the four pillars, leading yourself, leading others, leading with communication and leading with metrics. Now within each one of these, there are different areas of focus to drill in deeper in order to get some specific tools that can help help you improve your skills in each one of these areas. You’re never gonna do all this at once. And I would advocate, don’t try to do it all at once, right? These are things that take time. And the only thing we have is time because as we were talking about before leadership is a long term game, and if you are in it for the long term, then you owe it to yourself to invest in yourself. And the way people invest in themselves and like work with me is by working systematically through each of these four pillars to build skills in each and the these areas so that ultimately they can feel confident handling any situation. That’s my job, ultimately, as a coach is to empower my clients with the tools to handle, to confidently handle any situation.

The First Pillar of Leadership – Leading Yourself

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. So let’s dive into that first pillar. I feel like this is. This goes right to that opening question. Are you the CEO in your career? How do you recommend or how do you work with people to help them best lead yourself? So leading yourself is the first pillar, sorry if I maybe threw that in with a bunch of words, but leading yourself is one of the first pillars of leadership. How do you approach that?

Nils Vinje:

So there’s, there are three key areas in this that break it down and more being continuously added. But this is kind of the core essence of what I think it means to lead yourself. Number one is what I call bulletproofing, your leadership psychology. And as we were talking about here, you have the ability to take control it every time at any point in time. And I found the greatest benefit for my clients over the years has been when I combine strategy with psychology, right? So we have psychology to handle the mindset piece, and we got strategy and tactics to handle that. Actually, what are you gonna do? One without the other. You’re not gonna make as much progress, but both of them together is amazing. So when we talked about bulletproofing your leadership psychology, this is all about truly appreciating and accepting the fact that you are the CEO of your career and looking at the decisions that you make and also the decisions that your team makes against that lens.

This also involves what I call claiming your strengths. Strengths binder is one of my favorite assessments to give us a language to describe what you’re naturally talented to do when you know what you’re naturally talented to do, you immediately build confidence and that helps bolster your psychology. So all these pieces come together in that first main air area of bulletproof your leadership psychology, and the other two core areas are mastering your time and building repeatable systems. Lots more to dig into there, but I don’t wanna go too deep just yet, but that leadership psychology one is where it all starts.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. And well, and I love that taking that claim own your strengths, too many people. I think I see it as leading without your resume. It’s like, you just bring, it’s essentially like you’re talking and handing someone a blank resume. We don’t even know what’s on it. What you even did. And we’re doing ourselves a disservice as it relates to how we lead to others because we don’t get to see how we can contribute or provide value. I think that’s so important.

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The Second Pillar of Leadership – Leading Others

Jenn DeWall:

So your second pillar is all about leading others, which I think might be either the most favorite part of a leadership role or someone’s least favorite part of a leadership role.

Nils Vinje:

It’s polarizing for sure.

Jenn DeWall:

How do you start with that? Or like, what are your, I guess what’s your opinion as it relates to how to approach leading others?

Nils Vinje:

Yeah. So leading others is all about your, and in my framework, I’m talking about it in the context of your team, the people, your organization, the people that you are closest to in your work as a leader. And there are three core areas that are focused on here. Number one is building a connected team, and this is all about creating a team identity. Nobody shows up and gets outta bed every day and shows up to just be part of their boss’s team— insert your boss’s name here. And despite the fact that that’s how a lot of people view their role, oh, I’m just part of Jenn’s team. I’m just part of Nils team. I’m just part of Sam’s team, whoever it is. And it’s a huge opportunity that is missed when you don’t have an identity that this group of people who are coming together shared and helped to create.

Nils Vinje:

So there’s this bond that can be created there, and you can get tremendous leverage from an engagement perspective, from a trust perspective, from a reporting perspective that is absolutely phenomenal by going through the process to create an identity for this team. And that was some of the secrets behind how I went from an IC to a VP in two and a half years and built high-performing teams along the way I was building those identities as I went. And these incredibly strong bonds everywhere, every team that I interacted with. The second – yeah, go ahead.

Building a Team Identity

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s say I’m more curious, and maybe it’s because of a conversation I had earlier. Let’s say that you were new to an organization, maybe new to a leadership role. Where would you recommend someone even begin to look at developing a team identity? Because that can feel, especially if you’re new and you may not have the expertise within the organization. Maybe you don’t have the confidence yet because we might have that imposter syndrome. So how do you start with building that team identity?

Nils Vinje:

Well, the best thing is you don’t have to have any of the answers. You just have to have a framework and some tools and some structure, which I, 100%, absolutely can provide. I’ll give you the high level here. And then there’s more details in my book, which got a free copy available, which I’ll share a little bit later. So first up is the components of a team identity. There are three things that are really important. Number one, a clearly defined purpose statement. The purpose of this team is X; whatever team it is, whatever your purpose is, doesn’t really matter. But you fill in the blank purpose of the team is X. I’m gonna tell you how we get to these answers too. In just a sec. The second thing is a set of core values. These are the, that represent how your team commits to going about and fulfilling the purpose.

And the third element is a team brand. So this is the name. This is where we get to have some fun and really brings to life the, the type of personalities that are on the team and the type of things that the team likes. And so those three things together, the purpose statement, the core values and the brand represent to me a very strong team identity. And the way we go about this is the best thing is that you, as the leader have, all you have to do is facilitate getting to these answers. You do not have to come up with them yourself. So what we do is work with our teams and provided with the specific agendas and some meetings and some constructive brainstorming time. We pull out all this information, cause guess what? It’s already there. They already know how they work with themselves, how they work with each other, the ways they approach working with other teams, with other companies, et cetera, we just have to pull this out and then get everybody to agree on what the stuff that we 100% stand behind really is. And that’s some of the fun and the step by step process that I work with clients on the B2B leaders academy is how to go about this. I got templates tools, the whole nine yards, so that you can literally set up the meetings and then follow the schedule and come out with a team identity in a relatively short period of time.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that they can have that. I mean, I think I still think when I think of values and I know they’re so, so important, they act like that compass that we need to shed light on our decision making. But I, the moment of trauma around a company values or team values for me will come from, it’s not trauma. Okay, I’m being dramatic. But earlier on in my career there, I worked for an organization that, you know, they’re going through this values, rebrand. They wanted to change them. I am talking on every single outside cubicle. There was a values, I think, set values. Then they actually had actors that had different outfits representing each of the values. So there were six different actors. And then when it came down to launch it, they had people, they had brought in those actors that they photographed. And they had them come in and take pictures with people. I think they had cookies. I mean, they made this values launch huge. I can’t even imagine how much resources they, and then you go into a meeting and you’re like, I’m sorry, what were, were these our values? So how would you recommend people building that accountability? Because I still have that pain of, or the insert eye roll, tell me your values, but if you don’t follow through it, so how do you recommend to be accountable? Because I think there are leaders that sometimes think check minute. Yep.

Nils Vinje:

A hundred percent. I, and I, and I appreciate you brought up that story because I’ve experienced the same thing myself. And the first time going through this, I even questioned myself. Like, is this really a point? But the, the way that I was able to get buy-in from my team and to uphold and to drive the accountability was in the shared agreement. So in that situation with your organization, these values were created and then delivered to you through a series of actors and some other stuff that went on, right?

Even if you’re running a small team, even if you’re running a big team, doesn’t matter. But when people have an opportunity to shape those values are and when they are specific to them in their circumstances, that automatically changes the engagement level. Number one, number two is after they’re defined and everybody agrees to them, there is a what’s called part of it is a social contract where we agree to hold each other accountable to these values. And it is the leader’s responsibility to kind of push the edge on this, to say that, Hey, in every single meeting, how did we how, what’s an example of how someone lived up to one of our values, how did you use one of our values, excuse me, to make a decision. How would you use a value in this particular situation? So it’s the integration of these values into the day to day life that is gets the most leverage.

And that is where oftentimes companies fall down. When they do this at the big company level, they think that rolling it out is the end of the train. And the reality is that’s like barely even the beginning, right? It’s about infusing it into the culture. And that is a responsibility of leaders to constantly talk about it. When they’re giving feedback, give feedback in the context of values, when you’re having team meetings, bring it up. When I was talking about the brand piece, all of these pieces, the purpose, the core values rant, the integration of them into your day to day life with your team is what’s going to make it stick. If it, if you don’t do that, it will be gone in a matter of weeks, it’ll be “poof”. It just like it never existed. However, if you integrate it into your team’s daily operations and weekly operations, it has the chance to flourish into take hold. And that’s really exciting time.

So one of my very first teams that I did this with when I became, went from IC to manager. On Friday, I was a peer. On Monday, I was a boss and I, the first thing I wanna do was get the pressure off of me and say, Nope, we’re coming together. We’re gonna form this team. We’re all going to agree to what it means to be here. I just happened to be the leader and was, this was the set of exercise I walked through. And our team name was Team Solid. That was the name. And then our weekly team meeting became the team solid meeting. So it was no longer Nils’s team meeting. It was Team Solid meeting. Now we start building and having some fun with, well, what does Team Solid actually look like? From a visual perspective, we came up with a little icon and things, but this was all organic stuff that came as a result of everybody having buy-in and having a really strong alignment with it because they had buy-in. And by the, you know, I could pick up the phone 10 years later now and call anybody from Team Solid. And it would be right back. Like we were 10 years ago.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. And it’s, I think it’s so true that the trust that’s bill, I guess the loyalty that’s built extends beyond the time that the team might be, you know, one whole unit. Oh yeah. You can still feel bonded to those people many years beyond. That’s a great example of the power that they have when you can actually build and integrate that into a team. Yeah. That’s fantastic.

Nils Vinje:

It’s a hundred percent possible in any environment with any team virtually any situation, you know, it is possible because people wanna be part of something that’s bigger than themselves. And they wanna be part of something that they feel they have a hand in. I mean, think of any point in your life, the things you’ve been most engaged in were probably the things you contributed to in a larger way than some of the others. And bringing that into the work environment, I think is a fantastic idea. And it brings people together and everybody has a shared agreement and then everybody gets to hold each other accountable.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. Get that social contract going. Now I know that I cut you off, because I, I just have my own personal, you know, thing that I had to ask about as it relates to value, but I know that you were going in other directions as it relates to other key things that we need to focus on to be more effective as it relates to leading others. So I’ll let you take it away from there. Cause I know I interrupted you.

Driving Team Performance

Nils Vinje:

Oh no, it was perfect. That was a great, and it was a great point to call out because I get that look a lot. When I talk about values like, oh, here we go with the values thing again. I’m like, oh, this is a slightly different angle than you might have been experienced with before. And it’s, it’s all good. So the second major area in leading others is all about driving team performance. And these are the core foundational things that you have to do as at a really exceptional level to be a great leader. Things like setting expectations, driving accountability, giving feedback, like conceptually simple concepts that a lot of people would probably say are, oh, that’s just common sense. Of course, I know that already Nelson. And the thing about common sense is it’s not so common. And when I drill in, when people tell me, oh yeah, I’m, I’m good at giving feedback.

Nils Vinje:

And I drill in and I ask questions about, well, how do you give feedback? And how often are you give feedback? And what is the response to the feedback? I find a lot of holes. And so there’s specific tools that I use to help build that and build the repeatability and build the consistency. There was a great Harvard business review did a study, not long ago that asked what do people like the most and want to do the least? And they, people wanted the most was negative feedback or reinfor or corrective feedback. That was what they wanted the most. However, what they wanted, what people wanted to do, the least was give feedback. So the very thing that people want the most is the very thing that nobody wants to do.

Jenn DeWall:

Like it’s always negative. It wasn’t just feedback in general, they want negative feedback?

Nils Vinje:

Because they wanted to learn. They wanted to grow. And the thing that people did not want to do was give negative feedback. And it’s, it’s true. I mean, my own personal experience, it was feedback was kind of rare, right? And it was silly. It just didn’t, it wasn’t necessary. And I think the reason for that largely is there have been lots of different, you know, grand scheme feedback formulas and things, the feedback sandwich and all that stuff.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s happened. We,talked about that. We hate it, please. Don’t do that!

Nils Vinje:

You can see it coming a mile away, right. It’s just not authentic. And there are ways to do it. That is 100% can be aligned with you. You can feel comfortable. You can do it every single day and your team will absolutely 100% guaranteed appreciate it because it is the thing that everybody wants. Everybody wants to grow in some way. And if you have a formula to follow, then it’s a piece of cake. So that, you know, that feedback piece is a big one. I focus on and conceptually again, so simple, but so, so powerful. And when you get it down to a science where you can just consistently rely on your tools, it’s a piece of cake.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I feel like I was always looking for negative feedback, but that’s because I’m a hardcore perfectionist. Mm. Tell me what I’m doing wrong because then I’m gonna try and do everything to try and, you know, show that I’m good enough show that I’m valued. And so when I heard that, I was like, that’s a trigger for me, because I used to aspire for that. Like they could be like, you did a really good job. No, but tell me what I, I know. I probably,

Nils Vinje:

And they were probably looking at you going, are you doing a reverse feedback sandwich

Jenn DeWall:

On it’s lot? Like people want this, like I want for a form of self-torture. I’m pretty sure. I don’t know why, but that’s so interesting. But yeah, I mean obviously through the different lens, people want to be successful. Like they want to perform for the organization!

Nils Vinje:

They want to grow! And They can’t. And they can’t, if they don’t know- like nine times out of ten, feedback that is given comes when it’s received, it’s like, oh my gosh, I didn’t even realize I was doing that. Or I didn’t even realize that’s the impact of what I did. Because we’re wrapped up in ourselves all the time. So if you assume that somebody else knows how they acted and how it impacted somebody else, I guarantee almost a hundred percent you’re wrong. And so that’s where this feedback piece becomes so, so important. And the pace of growth, just like you’ve naturally wanted to find, just goes exponentially faster when that feedback is provided. And again, a hallmark of great leadership is giving that feedback to help other people grow.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, here is my PSA to anyone that is leading remote tea,s. Make sure you’re giving that feedback to those people that you’re not seeing all the time,

Nils Vinje:

Especially in the remote world.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. People wanna hear it. They want to know. I, I just, I think, and I, I still think of my friend that for six or seven months of the pandemic, she didn’t have one video conversation with her leader, and she was as an individual contributor. And that is just, how do you build culture? How do you build connections? How do you make sheep? For sure. People are executing on deliverables. If you do an out of sight out of mind, I, I get it. I know it’s timely. I know that sometimes it’s difficult. Right? You said it, people don’t like giving it, but there’s so much time saved. When you just give it,

Nils Vinje:

Is that and, and well, considering that the cost of an employee turning over is one of the greatest costs in any business. It’s gonna pay for itself very, very quickly. I mean, six or seven months without a video connection. I gotta imagine your friends, probably one foot out the door, if not two very quickly. Because emotional ties get cut when I don’t think they, anybody cares about them. Right. And that’s a fastest way to get somebody out the door is just ignore them and that’s what a lot of leaders do.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my God. Yes. And it just makes me like sad. It shouldn’t ever feel like in Adele song where someone is calling to say hello, it’s me. I’ve been waiting several months for you to connect with me. Like or whatever that might be like, no one should wait for that. If you’re a leader, you’ve gotta make contact.

Nils Vinje:

That is a great, great connection to, I’m gonna think of that every time I hear that song now.

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t even know why I just did that. And that might be the first time I’ve ever actually tried to remotely sing on the podcast. So I’m so sorry to the listeners. If you had to turn down on your podcast here, I love, I’m loving this conversation. Nils, where do we go with the, the third pillar now? So leading others. And I know that you’re, that you had a few more points in there, but I wanna make sure we we’re covering that’s our other pillars. Cause they you’re going to get a free copy of his book. So what is your third pillar?

The Third Pillar of Leadership – Leading with Communication

Nils Vinje:

So the third pillar is called leading with communication. And in this pillar, we’re starting to branch out our communication beyond our immediate team. So this is all about how do you communicate your value and your team’s value to people outside of your, in your immediate organization. So other leaders in the organization and this all starts with the cornerstone, which is how having a framework to be able to talk about your, your team, your values, your accomplishments, everything. And one of the interesting things of why this framework a framework is so important is because it helps you overcome. What’s called the crisis of context. Now it is total human nature.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. What is the crisis of context? It sounds like it should follow with a dun dun dun

Nils Vinje:

Dun dun, dun. Maybe we need some sound effects. Totally. It is, it is totally natural to believe that other people have the same level of context about a topic as you do, only problem is it couldn’t be further from the truth. Now in a leadership position, you know everything about your team, your organization, the goals you’re working towards, the activities, you’re doing everything. And when you talk with other leaders inside your organization, they don’t have anywhere near the same level of context about your work as you do. So if you talk to them, like you talk to your team, you are missing a of opportunity to connect. And what you say will likely go straight over their head and they will refer to you as having a conversation. But having absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

Jenn DeWall:

So many people can relate to that right now. I know it.

Nils Vinje:

Some people refer to this as like, you know, more executive-level communication and whatnot. And I’d say, yeah, that’s fair, but I’m breaking it down simple as possible. Other people do not have the same level context as you when, and if you talk to other people like you do your team and you don’t have a different level to talk with them, then it’s just not gonna work. So a perfect example of a framework, it’s my four pillars of leadership. I created this as a way to connect with anybody and tell my story of how I view leadership. When I was writing my book, that was where this framework came about. All the research I did all looking back at everything I knew about leadership, everything I coached people on for 10 years and I boiled it down into these four pillars. So when I’m meeting with someone like yourself and having a conversation on this podcast, if you rewind, you’ll notice that in the very beginning, I just said the high-level version of the framework.

I said there are four pillars leading yourself, leading others, leading with communication and leading with metrics. And then, we were going in and dove into each one of those in more specific detail. But if I, I just started with feedback or if I just started with expectations, if I just started with psychology, you would’ve gotten lost because it would’ve been like, well, these are interesting topics, but how does this all fit together? Do I have to do a million, one-off little things? And I’m saying, no, we just focus on these four major pillars. And then we systematically work through each one of them. So that’s an example of how powerful a framework can be.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a fantastic, yeah. I love that example. And I think it’s often an underutilized tool is we’re probably, I’m sure many people going from project to project, task or email to email, whatever that might look like. Yep. And then just not, you know, passively sending things, but not making sure that it’s clear. I mean, in it, I know that we may not like it, but people’s attention span is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And so when I, you know, if someone wrote me a full long multi-paragraph email today, it actually would be harder for me to process to understand and distill what the primary, what do you want me to do with this? Yeah. And yet I still get them. Hey, did you follow up on my email? First of all, you didn’t even ask me what you wanted me to do. You just sent me a novel and I don’t know what you want me to do with the novel. Right.

When You Communicate – Assume Zero Context

Nils Vinje:

Right. And that is, that is, that happens all day. Every day, email inbox is clogged with that exact stuff because we make an assumption that other people know what we know. And we go into great length of detail without stopping saying, okay, what level of context does this person actually have about this situation that I need to bring to their attention? And they either have zero context. They have some, or they have all the context, like kind of think of it in three levels like that. And if they have zero context, you can’t go much further than just the very high level pieces. Cuz they’re not gonna understand any anyway. So you might as well start

Jenn DeWall:

Love that framework. Who is your audience? Do they have, what did you say? Zero context.

Nils Vinje:

Zero context. Anybody outside your media team assume they have zero context. If they’re an executive at your company, if they’re anybody else in a different department, assume zero. That’s the starting point.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I think that’s such a great thing to say is assume zero. Think about how many I got, how many miscommunication, I guess, issues you could hopefully eradicate by just going there and also not going so technical to the point that someone just, you know, falls asleep on their keyboard or starts to peruse that they actually hear your message and that it’s a good return for both people. Love it. Right. That’s fantastic.

Nils Vinje:

As soon as you lose somebody in like you talk at too low level of detail or they, they get the sense that they don’t understand what you’re talking about, you’ve lost them and you it’s really, really difficult to get ’em back if you, if you possibly even can. So know that that was that beginning piece, whether it’s email or verbal or phone or zoom, it doesn’t matter that first connection piece of meeting them where they are is incredibly important and oftentimes gets overlooked. And the framework is the ultimate antidote for how to do that effectively. Cuz you be able to communicate with people who have zero context. People have some context and people have all the same context as you. And those are kind of the three levels of framework that I like to think about.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I, I mean, I think that that’s already gonna help me in thinking about things. That’s a really great framework. Thank you for the tool. My Pleasure.

Jenn DeWall:

So leading with communication, I know you have a few other tips. What would be one other tip that you would provide to leading with communication?

Nils Vinje:

Just the high-level. The other key foundational pieces here are creating unstoppable presentations. So once you have a framework and you can talk about all the great work and the value that you and your team are delivering is really helpful to be able to package that up in a meaningful presentation that can to your audience, that can take them through a story that can inspire them, whatever the situation is. And because you have to do an effective job of telling your story. And if you can’t tell your story, nobody’s gonna listen and you’re not gonna get approved for initiatives. You’re not gonna have a lot of trouble getting OKRs bought off on, et cetera. So those, there are some tools and some skills like there’s a whole lot more. We don’t have time to get into today. But the third key area in leading with communication is all about what I call marketing or leadership.

And here’s the underpinning of this. You doing the work as a leader is not enough. You have to tell a story about your leadership. You have to tell a story about your work. Nobody knows what you do assume that nobody knows what you do. Even if they say they know they don’t assume they know nobody knows what you do. It is your job to effectively market your value, your skills, your team, your success, your failures, successfully market that within the organization and the audience is gonna determine the level of context that you need to communicate at, which is why the framework and the presentations are so important. So it’s kind of like the, you know, encapsulating thing on the leading with communication is ultimately being able to effectively market your leadership.

Market Your Own Leadership

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Well, and I think that goes back to even the driving your career piece. Are you the CEO in your career? Do you, are you aware of how you provide value and goodness, if I could just build competence in every single individual that I ran into contact with because leaders don’t always see their values, they get, I guess, for lack of a better description that I can think of off the top of my head is they get bogged down. They feel like they’re sinking in maybe failure or these small mistakes instead of looking at how, how they did contribute, looking at what they did achieve. And I just think that’s so important. And I think it also competes with maybe how some of us have been raised. I know I was raised with the notion that you don’t wanna be too confident because then you’re going to come off as cocky or arrogant, which is extremely offloading. But you’re saying get comfortable with promoting yourself, market your leadership. Yeah.

Nils Vinje:

Yeah. And it’s, it is not about being cocky. Like there is a difference between confident and cocky and this is one that comes up all the time. People are like, well, how do I, how do I market my leadership and how do I promote myself without tooting my own horn? And without sounding like I’m cocky. And I say, well, it comes back to one, the leadership psychology that you have, number two, finding an appropriate way, using a framework to tell the story of your work, right? So you’re not talking about you, you’re talking about the work that you’ve done and the leadership that you’ve provided and the value of the company through a vehicle of which anybody can understand. This is not just, oh, Jenn did this and Nils did this and Nils did this and Nils did this. No, no, no. It’s about, well, here was a big picture problem in situation that we had, we approached this through the four pillars of leadership pillar 1, 2, 3, 4. Here’s what we did in each one of these pillars. This is how we contributed value to the company. Now all of a sudden people can understand your message and they, it wasn’t about you at all. It was actually the framework was the great vehicle to be able to communicate to them because they didn’t know what you did.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Can I, I wanna get your take on this. Like one of the things that I say with clients is that you have one end of the spectrum is cockiness. The other end of the spectrum is low confidence. If you have been operating with the fact that cockiness is your enemy, the likelihood of you jumping onto the cockiness train overnight or becoming arrogant it from what I see is, is pretty small. Yeah. And so just putting that out there, cause you would really have to work to then get that there. So, I love the tools that you’re sharing with them because give yourself permission to try. Because you’re not all of sudden gonna swing overnight to telling everyone that you lead them from an ivory tower and look down at them.

Nils Vinje:

That’s right. And even if you’re, you know, don’t have the framework in place yet. That’s okay. Like simple matter of fact is- make it not about you. If you let’s say you ran a project, let’s say a project was wildly successful. Let’s say you led that project. And it led to some wonderful result for the company that added some amount of measurable value. Right? Very generic example here. But instead of saying, I led this project, I got this to this value. I did this. You just simply take yourself out of it and talk about, all right here was the situation that we had. This was a challenge that was recognized. The team came together. We identified some possible solutions. We came up with the best possible scenario based on our understanding. At the time we put together a, you know, implementation plan, we this into action and we achieve this result. That’s an effective way to market your leadership and you never use the word I that’s. Okay. Right. So even if you don’t have a full framework built out, framework’s obviously gonna make it infinitely easier and, and more effective. But even if you don’t have it out, take yourself out the equation. Don’t talk about, I talk about the, the situation, you know, what, how the team came together or how the solution was arrived at and then what the end of end of result was and what the impact was.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. That is a fantastic way to just approach it. All you have to do is get into it and just start going or even start with the we, what did we, as the team go, and then you can bring that back. Let’s get into your final pillar. I cannot this, I feel like this is blown by. So your final pillar is.

The Fourth Pillar of Leadership – Leading with Metrics

Nils Vinje:

With metrics. So this is the measurement piece. And as you see, like they, while we can, and with my clients, we do go in different order and sometimes focus on different areas of time, depending on the situation. However, the original construct was that, well, you gotta focus on leading yourself. Then you can effectively lead others. Then you can effectively lead with communication. Then you can effectively lead with metrics. So the measurement piece is critically important, but not at the expense of everything else. And these, the couple key areas and things in here are around driving personal and team performance. And the one takeaway I would share here is a very powerful lesson I learned many years ago from a close friend of mine, was that any activity can get to a yes or no. And that was a game changer for me. So I’m not naturally metrics-driven, but I have learned to adapt and build, bring metrics in so that I could drive my team’s performance when I was in an operational role.

And when I’m working with my clients and sharing these tools and tips and helping them to drive performance, because here’s what happens most times, okay. Leader says, Hey, our sales number is down. You need to go fix it. Our retention number is too high or sorry too low. You need to increase it. We need to go from 80% to 90% go do it. And then they say, well, I trust my team. They’re smart. They should figure it out. And that’s the absolute worst thing to do because nobody has any idea what it means that the sales number is down like was that the result of marketing efforts was that result of sales development efforts was that result of close rates, pricing, packaging, 8 billion other possibilities

Jenn DeWall:

Or a pandemic!

Nils Vinje:

Global pandemic. Exactly right. But that’s where a lot of metrics get left is they get left at the lagging indicator, high-level things that just do not like inspire action cannot be tied directly to action. You cannot in a day influence that lagging indicator metric. So this pillar is all about learning, how to break down those big lagging indicators into leading indicators, which translate then into activities that you and your team can work with. And you can hold ’em accountable to actually doing things. And the best part is they will know exactly how the work they do on a daily basis influences the leading indicators, which ultimately influences lagging indicators. And so that closes the gap on the measurement piece, which is pervasive across all the business world.

Jenn DeWall:

And that’s so important. I think that that’s often an overlooked area of development within organizations, not even describing at a simple level, how your organization makes money determines what success looks like. I know we teach a class all around building your business here at cross com, but it’s when I worked at an organization, I remember feeling completely detached. I, and the example that I share as it relates to that is there. I think it was my manager or leader at the time. I didn’t necessarily. They gave, they, you know, came and delegated the task here is said tasks that we want to do. And in my brain with limited information, limited context, I was like, this seems redundant. Why are we doing this? And then fast forward into, I went and I have, I worked for a publicly-traded company. I sat and listened to our quarterly earnings call. My mind was so excited to have an understanding of how that strategy then connected back to me. But yet that took me going in and actually seeking out the information. And I think it’s low hanging fruit for leaders to just have these conversations. I hear how people understand. That’s how they’re making informed decisions. I just love that you’re bringing this up.

Nils Vinje:

It all, it comes back to the metrics, right? If you know what the metrics are at the high-level, you know, I, I use these levels level 1, 2, 3 in multiple areas, as we’re talking about with framework. And it’s just a great way to just break it down. Right? And, and when you’re communicating metrics about your team, guess what metrics other people who have no context need to know, level one metrics, the highest level, the lagging indicators, they don’t care about the stuff that happens day to day. They’ll never be able to understand it. They don’t understand why they, they don’t need to, but if you’re communicating with your team, you can’t communicate it. Level one metrics, you can’t communicate that our sales numbers are going down because then there’s this huge gap of, well, how does what I do actually impact that outside of the once a quarter measurement that I hear about with that number, it just doesn’t make any sense. So closing the gap is really, really important. It’s kind of at the heart of this entire pillar. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

And it’s a way to drive engagement. I don’t wanna feel disconnected, but it, you know, if I’m just missing information to understand the value and I have all these competing priorities, right? You don’t wanna assume that the employee’s trying to go against it. They might just not see how that connects. Thank you so much for bringing that up to as a point of leading with metrics of why it’s so important to build that interior leadership style Nils I’ve loved our conversation. I, same here, truly loved it. I feel like the energy’s been fun. I don’t know why saying for my first time, but I want people to be able to connect with you. I know you’ve offered to give and provide your book that they can download, but tell, tell me or tell them how they can connect with you?

Where to Find Nils and Get a Free Copy of 30 Day Leadership Playbook

Nils Vinje:

Absolutely. Yeah. So you can get a free copy of the bestselling book, 30 Day leadership playbook, your guide to becoming the leader. You have always wanted to be by going to 30 Day leadership.com/book. And that just submits your name and email, and I’ll send you the book immediately within a few minutes. Either for the information on the B2B leadership podcast or the B2B Leaders Academy, where it go deeper with all these tools and provide access to not only the tools and the content, but also coaching with me, just go to 30dayleadership.com, and you can see the whole menu of services there would love to connect with you. You can always send me an email at nils@30dayleadership.com if you have a specific question. I look forward to connecting in the future.

Jenn DeWall:

Nils, thank you so much for just sharing your knowledge, expertise, and passion for leadership. This was a great episode, and I know that our listeners will walk away with some tangible takeaways.

Nils Vinje:

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit popped cast with Nils Vinje. I loved the conversation. It was so dynamic, and I learned so many different characteristics, tips and techniques that I can try. As you heard in the episode, Nils is offering you a free digital copy of the 30 day leadership playbook. And you can access that by going to 30dayleadership.com/book, or you can find that link in our show notes. Also, you can connect with them there. You can find additional resources. And if you know someone that could benefit from hearing this conversation, don’t forget to share this with them. And of course, if you’re looking for leadership development, we would love to assist you here at Crestcom, we offer a one-year-long comprehensive leadership of development program that is focused on creating more authentic and human-centered leaders. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

 

The post The Four Pillars of Leadership with Leadership Coach Nils Vinje appeared first on Crestcom International.

Managing Dissenting Opinions to Make Better Decisions with Dr. Tom Tonkin, CEO of The Conservatory Group

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with Dr. Tom Tonkin. Dr. Tonkin considers himself a recovering executive and an aspiring Renaissance man, as an executive in the professional services and software sales arena. Dr. Tonkin has over 30 years of business and technology experience. He is currently serving as the CEO of The Conservatory Group and is the co-founder and Dean of Students at The Sales Conservatory. Join us as Dr. Tonkin and Jenn talk about managing dissenting opinions and making data-informed decisions.

Meet Dr. Tom Tonkin, Recovering Executive & Aspiring Renaissance Man

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I am here with Tom Tonkin. We are so excited to be talking about how you can make dissenting opinions so manageable, something maybe easier, something more approachable. So then, you can make more data-informed decisions. I know that they heard a little bit about you on our opening bumper, but Tom, could you go ahead and just introduce yourself to our Crestcom audience? We are so happy to have you on the show today,

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Jenn, I really appreciate you taking time here on a snowy day here in Colorado, but we actually both live here. It’s a lot of fun. I, again, my tagline has always been that I am a recovering executive. I have been in what I would call the standard corporate world for probably over 30 years. But as of late, I’ve obviously launched into my own set of businesses from a workplace perspective, and I am learning sales and DEI specialist. So some things that you can go out Google and look for me. And but I, I am like a management consultant within those areas. I have what I would believe is strong academic background. I’ve done a lot of research in these areas as well. And you know, part of the reason is, is that I wanna take what I’ve learned, not only in my professional experience, as well as my academic experience and sort of giving back to the corporate world. I think that’s probably the best way to sum it up as we are here today.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I’ve well, I, I have the question that I know we talked about this because I love how you identify as a recovering executive. How did you come to maybe that description or identifier of yourself?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

I think anybody that has been an executive for ten years is probably chuckling right now. Because they probably said, you know, Tom, good tagline, and I’m gonna take it as well. And you should, you know, if you go and work in large organizations where there’s a lot of internal flux, reorganizations, redirection of resources, and vision, it takes a toll on you just to do the job that you have been hired to do. You know, let alone just, you know, the nine to five thing that people expect. And it got to be a point where it’s like when I left corporate America, I thought I needed a break. I need to go to rehab or something.

Jenn DeWall:

Is there an Executive rehab? There should be!

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

There should be! And, and you know, sort of get my mind gear as to what I actually think my value is without a lot of the noise that comes from these large companies. And by the way, I’m not being disparaging in that because I think large-scaled organizations, that’s just, that’s just the game. That’s, that’s, what’s required to move these behemoth organizations forward. However, somebody who, you know, make a lot of decisions, I’m sure you’ve had people here talking about, you know, the idea of decision fatigue. It gets to be a point where that, that rehab really helps when you’re able to step out and say, look, let me not make any decisions for the next few days. And, and just think about what it is that I do for a living and how I can help other people.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh gosh. I wonder I, what impact that would have if execs, because I know that likely, and, and I’m not trying to in any way, say that other people’s schedules, workloads are not high, but you know, again, you know, executive leadership, it can be a lonely place and yet, you’re highly visible. So there are a lot of different expectations. And so I think, yeah, it’s only natural that decision fatigue takes place. And I don’t think our listeners got in any way that you were just disparaging that. I think we recognize that it’s a challenging role. There’s a lot of weight on your shoulders. And I don’t know. I think there are a lot of executive leaders that are likely feeling maybe even alone, as sometimes I see in leadership or the classes that I teach. They don’t even have of same opportunities to rely on their peers, to ask someone for help, to solve problems. I feel like sometimes that really lies within to figure everything out. And that’s just challenging in and of itself. Like you don’t have that support system that you might need, and maybe they do within their other executive team, but it may not be something that’s as relevant to the role and their day-to-day. How did, yeah. What’s your comment on that? Because I imagine you struggled with that, maybe feeling a little isolated at the top. Or that extra pressure that you put on yourself because you have the title, you have that visibility.

Ascending to Leadership Positions

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

I will say this that probably, well, no, not probably for certain, the hardest job that I ever had as I ascended into an executive role was that line manager job, right? You went from an individual contributor sort of, you know, you’re the person that has the set of tasks and processes you have to execute. And then you become really good at that. And then someone says because you’re good at that. I’m gonna make you a manager of those people, which if you think about it, it’s a non sequitur, right. It’s like that doesn’t make any sense because I would guess about 50% of the behaviors that you need to be, that manager of those people are completely different than what you just did. Right? I am. And again, I, you know, I’m a widget maker, right? I’m gonna make lots and lots of widgets.

I’m the best widget maker there is. And so somebody comes along and says, Tom, you’re such a good widget-maker that you now need to manage other widget makers. And I think everybody can recognize that those are different, and there’s no like onboarding of that job. If you’re internal and someone gives you a promotion, no one says, Hey, let’s put you through onboarding. Let’s put you into new hire training. Which by the way, I’m suggesting that people do, because, in essence, that is a new job. Now I would think that anything above that it can become better and you become better at it, but that is such a crucial linchpin of a position that I think that your experience in that position dictates what the rest of your ascension will look like, whether it be difficult or a little easier.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I think, think that brings up really. There are two things that come to mind as you’re sharing that because you know that our first leadership roles, those ones where we are starting to step up, can be, again, similar to that executive. It can be really isolating. You might, you know, experience a little bit of the imposter syndrome, and many companies and organizations don’t necessarily give you that leadership training. They kind of think that, well, you figured it out for that widget-maker role. And so you can probably figure this one out. And I think so there’s that piece of feeling like you’re maybe not set up for success, but then you also have, and just again, continuing with your story, you also have the widget makers that are fantastic widget makers, and they’re so great. And they have no desire to be a people leader. Exactly. Yet, if you want them to move up, they have to. And I think that’s so interesting, and I don’t have a solution for what organizations could do, but I do wish more organizations could promote people without making them people, leaders and allowing them to shine with the strengths and skills that they have because they may not cross over. And we don’t want to accidentally or inadvertently create awful experiences for the employees just by making that one wrong leadership choice.

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Yeah. I, you know, I agree with you because I, I will tell you this, that maybe we don’t have the hardcore definition of a solution, but I will tell you this. We can make it a heck of a lot better than it is today. I’ll give you an example. I worked within the company that for you to get a promotion, a prerequisite was that you manage people. So you’re kind of stuck with, well, that’s the, how do you say that that’s my reward that I’m gonna get. And so, therefore, you know, going up is good. You know, all of them, I would think myths are in their head. That ascension is really what everyone should be doing. And I don’t necessarily believe that. I believe that it’s, it’s the associated value that you bring to the corporation and maybe making the best widgets your company has ever seen is really where you should be. And there’s a whole bunch of ways to reward you outside of just promoting you.

Managing Dissenting Opinions—Different Doesn’t Mean They’re Wrong

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, yes, yes. I love this. We’re sharing our opinions, which I think is a place to start, you know, going into our podcast topic, which is how we can manage those dissenting opinions and make more data-informed decisions. You know, we’re talking about dissenting opinions and I guess from your definition, would you just mean the opinions where we may not all be in agreement? We might be challenging theories. We might be challenging your observation or opinion itself. What would you say that problem might look like in organizations?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Well, I define dissenting opinions as opinions that are different. It’s that simple. And I, all of with executives with a quote that I’m not necessarily who said it I would love to have said it but I use it, which basically says differently isn’t always better, but better is always different. Different isn’t always better, but better is always different. So what do you want? You, you want better? I’m assuming, don’t we all? Well, by definition, it is different. And yet I go to board meetings look across and, and it becomes this battle of homogenous– I can’t even say it– homogenizing ideas, like where can we get to the most is neutral non-boat rocking, right idea. And because we can all get along, but then it’s like, have we really looked around and below and above and outside whether or not that, that particular conclusion, right. It brings us to a better place.

And so when I say dissenting opinions, I’m not sitting here, you know, rolling up your sleeves. You’re gonna go, you know, fist to fist with somebody. But I am saying that sometimes people look at something that’s different and connected to it is wrong. We’ve never done it like that before, or I’ve never heard of it like that. Therefore it must be wrong or something we shouldn’t, excuse me. It shouldn’t do. And I think some of the best ideas have come from somebody saying, well, you know, why not? Why can’t we do these things? Why can’t we change ourselves a little bit? Why can’t I do something that’s different? I remember being in a room with a, I’ll leave the names out, but it was a large CPG company. And I was with the CEO and CIO. And I had the CIO in the room, and I was up on the whiteboard trying to explain something. And the entire time he was shaking, he said, no, that’ll never happen. That’ll never happen. No, no. Let you know, lemme give you 18 ways why this can’t happen. And I finally kind of flipped it and said to him, I realize it can’t happen, but what if it could happen. That’s all I said; there’s like this pause in the room. A lot of my peers are looking at me, like, I can’t believe he actually said that.

Jenn DeWall:

We’re supposed to think that it can’t. We’re supposed to think it can’t.

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

And then, and then he, and then he goes, I’ll show you. And he gets up on the whiteboard for the next 20 minutes and outlines it’s exactly how this thing could happen. And the CEO looks over and goes, why don’t we just do it like that? And it just opened up this whole new conversation. And, you know, we can dive in the whole discussion around limiting beliefs and, and, and what we bring from that because I think the scenting opinion and limiting beliefs kind of go hand in hand. The reason people dissent is because they have some limiting belief or some idea that that dissenting opinion is wrong or different or unworkable, you know, pick your poison, whatever the word you’re using. And I think if we’re able to govern our limiting beliefs, we might be able to have an opportunity to manage those descending opinions.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. I love that. You’re talking about, you know, limiting beliefs as it relates to your team, how you filter that information, how you allow other people to bring diverse perspectives into the room or conversation. You know, what’s interesting is I think I, you know, we’ve done a few different podcast episodes and never once have I heard anyone talk about limiting beliefs as it relates to the opinions of others at work. And I think that that’s such a special correlation because yeah. What I wrote down there, even with your perspective of like a lot of people do think, oh, well, if I’m different, then I might not be getting it right. Or I might be wrong. And so, I don’t want to raise my hand or volunteer my idea just because different means wrong. And I think you deduced it down to a rule that is a limited belief. I love that, Tom! I think that’s so powerful. So just PSA or public service announcement to anyone listening right now. We’re gonna start with that one just because it’s different does not necessarily directly equal wrong. Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that, Tom. I just appreciate that so much. So let’s dive into it. So, where do leaders get this process wrong? I know we talked a little bit about limiting beliefs, and we might go more into it, but where do leaders get this process of managing dissenting opinions wrong?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Well, I think what happens is, and, and I think it’s baked into corporate hierarchical culture in the sense that when, when, when I am trying to ascend, right, let’s go back, let’s rewind five minutes ago, whatever. Or we’re talking about how ascending into a, into a, a position is good. And so here I am, I’m trying to ascend. And the way I do that is I try to be noticed. I try to, you know, I won’t take credit for everything I possibly can. I’m not suggesting to do anything malicious, but I say, you’re, you’re trying to gain the visibility of your boss to say, you know Jenn is somebody special, right. Then we should take a look at her because I, I kind of see her all the time or she’s, she’s volunteering for really difficult things, has an interesting, a set of opinions.

And then you get that right. Then you get promoted. So what do you do as a leader? What, what’s your natural inclination, your natural inclination, as is everybody below you now? Okay. Now, everybody just chill. Because I am now the leader, nobody better be rocking the boat. Nobody changes anything. Nobody goes against my dissenting opinion because I’ve got this. Because I’m gonna go to my next level. I’m gonna shake it up here, but I’m gonna lock it down below. And that’s how I’m gonna move up because I want to have to compete for, you know, minutes, if you will, with, with those that might be able to provide me that visibility that I’m looking for. And again, none of this is malicious. It sounds malicious. And maybe I’m describing it that way, but it’s not in the sense that it is baked into corporate culture. That’s what you need to do as a leader.

The Challenges of Decision-Making in Middle Management

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

I have a great book for everybody. If everybody’s interested, it’s called Leadership BS by a gentleman of Jeffrey Pfeffer. And if you go to Amazon, he’s, he’s a great author. I love him, but I think the title says it where we talk about, like, for example, this idea of humility, right? Oh, you know, if you read the leadership literature, right. Be humble, you know, help others and all this other stuff, I gotta tell you in middle management, that’s not how it works in middle management. It’s, you know, I’m, you know, I am the most humble person in the whole world, right—the dichotomy of trying to stand out because that is how you ascend into an organization. And so there’s, there’s an interesting, fine line between, you know, being a go-getter and all that. And really do, you know, have a helping hand and all. I’m not suggesting that everybody’s like that, but it’s very difficult in those middle ranks.

Jenn DeWall:

Sure. Well, especially depending on that, that drive, Hey, this is, you know, this is how you, you should show up as a leader here. This is what we want to see, less humility. Right? We don’t care. We want to see your ego. Tell people to do this. I think there are a lot of differences depending on the culture that you’re in. And there are a few different things that even came to mind even thinking about humility because I think, you know, when you talked about promotions, I think, and you talked about this earlier, maybe I’m going back, but even thinking that if you get a promotion yeah. Let’s go through onboarding again. And here’s the thing that I would add to that piece of, well, if we’re gonna do onboarding again, let’s talk about how this team, this small microculture or subculture within the organization, these are the norms, expectations that you want to know, because I think that that’s often a misstep too, is that we don’t get people ready for that new avenue.

And I guess I think about this normal place of pain when I received a promotion at, they done so well, working with all these people, they valued dissenting opinions in that culture. They absolutely did. I could ask questions. I kind of try to move the needle. I could ask questions just to be curious. It wasn’t necessarily pushing back, but when I moved into that other department, the other role within this large corporation, well then, you know, to take that book, what got you here is not necessarily going to get you there. I found out my approach to even offering opinions was not respected or appreciated and actually was seen as me trying to undermine strategy. Whereas in the past area, it was actually me trying to understand how the strategy worked, not undermine the strategy. Exactly. I know that was a little bit of a kind of a tangent on that one that what came to mind in terms of that onboarding bridge for me, and just that challenge. So you talk about there are two types of change within a team, within an organization. Let’s talk a little bit more about that type of change that can exist.

Change Management— Top-Down or Bottom-Up?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

So as anybody who’s might have listened to me before, and maybe your, your listeners are new to me, I always tend to sort of default on sort of a basic theory to give me a model to work off of. And there’s a wonderful book called Cracking the Code of Change by two gentlemen, Nohria and Beer, and what they have done over a 40 year period is to measure all the different changes in project organizational, just throw ’em all a big bucket. And basically, it came to the conclusion that there are only two kinds of changes. There’s an economic change or organizational capability change, economic changes. I, you know, we, we need to be profitable. We need to reduce, you know, cost, excuse me, those kinds of things. Then there’s another change which is capability. We need to make new things. We need to make them better. We need to be more entrepreneurial. And what’s interesting about those two changes is what they came up with was if you go into the research or six dimensions of how you qualify those two changes and the economic changes, kinda a top-down command and control approach, right? Top-down, we all agree on what it is. We’re just gonna tell everybody what to do. And that’s great. Organizational capability, though, is the other way around, just gonna be from the bottom up where you have people in the line management or the people that are in the field having to do those trading that change and pushing that grass movement up. Now, that’s all fine and dandy, but here’s the problem. The problem is, is when you take that first one, that what’s called theory E the economic piece model, and you put it over top of the organizational capability means you’re driving organizational capability from the top down.

That’s really why you have these. These change efforts fail. If you go to the number, the number, anybody who listens to this knows this 70% of all first-time change efforts fail. And that’s one of the biggest failures is somebody says, I’m the boss. And you all need to be better at something. To transform, you know, go be somebody innovative and tell me when you’re done. Yes, I’m being a bit facetious, but try to make the point that that doesn’t necessarily work. And so what I always point to is, what kind of leader are you and kind of know, you know, stick to your knitting, right? Know which leader are you a top-down leader? Because by the way, I’m not suggesting that top-down’s bad. I’m, I’m just saying that’s often misused when you’re trying to generate new or is capability, but you have a top-down those leaders that have that perspective, my advice to you would be, how can you motivate and incent and inspire those at the lower levels to take that leap, to create the organizational capability change that you desire that is where you see the successful companies and leaders.

Bridging the Gap Between Different Opinions

Jenn DeWall:

How do you bridge the gap, though? Because  I’m gonna speak as if, you know, I was just in this role where I might be that entry-level employee, maybe I’m even a frontline leader. And I can see the impact of this strategy, in my opinion, is that this may not have been the most L thought out strategy. We may not have the right resources, the right amount of time, whatever that answer might be. How do you bridge that gap between those differing opinions or, like that, will exist may be between the top-down and that bottom-up? How do you what’s that point of, I guess, marriage, where they can see each other? How do you do that? Because I know even from the other perspective, especially if it comes top-down, you may not ever feel comfortable vocalizing or even sharing that. So how do you bridge that gap when there maybe those differences in opinion?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Well, there you have it, I mean, that’s, isn’t this, the theme of our podcast today, right. Is managing those dissenting opinions. That’s another opportunity. I think there are a couple of ways of doing it. Obviously, there has to be fluid communication up to and down the hierarchy. One of the other things that I’ll leave your listeners with is you see these companies go through internal reorganizations, and usually, those internal reorganizations are very vertically oriented people report to. So, and so we’re gonna move this division to that side, very sort of vertically oriented. And yet there’s plenty of evidence that organizational changes at a vertical level really don’t impact the business. That much, what really impacts the business is that horizontal connection. My ability to work with my cross-functional peer at every level, whether I’m an individual contributor all the way to an executive.

What can I sort of quote, unquote, reach over the aisle, as they would say in politics and be able to work together. That’s how it moves. And so as a leader, again, now I’m putting these pieces together for you to understand the kind of change that you’re going through economic versus organizational capability, which was, where does the E what the Genesis of each one of those changes is? Number one, number two, as a leader, ensure that your cross-functional communications your horizontal communications are alive and well. And people aren’t stopped from working together because that’s how you’re going to move forward. And it, lastly, of course, is having that fluid communication to sit there and say, you know, like what’s going on in the field, see, this is the problem. And again, it’s inherent in a, in a hierarchy, because think about this.

Are Making Decisions From the Balcony? Or the Dance Floor?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

It’s just very physically easy to see if I’m here. And this is my, this is the field, and I move up, and I move up, and I move up. I’m getting further and further away from the action, right? I don’t see. And so one would say, well, that’s good. You’re at the, you know, the balcony if you will. And you can see down at the dance floor, but you become disassociated to the dance floor. You’re you don’t hear the people, you, you don’t feel the sweat, you don’t. And so there’s, there’s this idea that you have this third-person view of the external business, and you can’t make those changes, or at least you don’t understand what changes need to be made. And so you need to be at the dance floor level. And of course, as executives, sometimes, you know, you can’t because you’re, you know, running a business or whatever, but down on the floor, the people know you are sweating, they’re dancing. They know to win slow dance. They know when a fast dance, they know who’s a better dancer. You know, I can use all the dance analogies here, but you could see, you could see that the further up you go, you’re just very disassociated. So how can you create an associated view of what’s going on in the field?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I think that if more organizations, teams, leaders could answer that question. I think people would feel so much more supported, so much more, I guess, engaged. And just knowing that their teams see them, understands those constraints. They understand what song they’re listening to. I love that example of the metaphor. What song are they dancing to? How fast are they dancing? How slow, you know, again, we can think that view of the balcony! Are you disassociated?

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You Can’t Just Ignore Dissenting Opinions

Jenn DeWall:

I wanna move into this because I know we didn’t touch on this yet, but your organization, The Conservatory Group that you founded. And I know we didn’t talk about your past as a musician as, or excuse me, a career as a musician. And I know that there is a lot of experience that brings, or that you bring from that to the conversation that we’re having right now. And one is also in the form of feedback. Could you tell us a little bit about how we can manage dissenting opinions and how we can give feedback in a way? Hey, maybe we can’t, you know, do this. You have a different idea. It doesn’t mean to ignore it doesn’t mean to not address it, but if you’re going to address it, how do you address that if you’re not gonna go forward? How do you do that?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Well, I give feedback? Yeah, well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna paint the picture. So let’s get a sort of a running start to the conversation. So yes, I was a professional musician, and as far as I’m concerned, if it paid any decent money, I probably would still be doing it. But as a professional musician, I went to a music conservatory to learn music, and I learned how to move from it, and I started as a saxophone player. But then moved into being a bass player because I couldn’t get gigs as a saxophone player. And what happened was I moved from someone that played the bass to a bass player, and it’s a nuance. But if you think about it in each of the functions in the business, are you a person that sells or are you a sales professional? Are you somebody that does payroll, or are you a payroll expert?

We Need to Get Better at Giving and Receiving Feedback

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Right. What is that movement? And that movement comes from the ability to learn, to be self-directed and to accept feedback from not only people but things, situations and circumstances. And I think what happened was my experience in the conservatory where I get feedback all the time, right? Some my, my professors, my studio, teacher, yeah. Everyone had a studio teacher. So the person that kind of knew you think of it as a guidance counselor, if you will, who kind of knew your instrument and was able to help you, it, it was 95% feedback. You did this wrong, and you did that wrong. You should do this. You should do that. Don’t forget this. Don’t forget that. I grew up that way. I was a teenager when I started, and I ended up going in my twenties and you just kind of did that.

And when I got to the business world, there’s this barrier to feedback that goes up. Like, it’s a, like, you know, don’t say those things in public. And, you know, I remember sitting in a jazz ensemble and missing a note, like anyone would miss a note and the conductor who’s got, you know, ears like a, you know, like a Doberman would, would go, Hey, Tom, you know, that was a, B flat, not a B, do you know what key we’re in? Do you know? And I’m like, oh, yep, you’re right. I actually knew that I had made that mistake. Won’t happen again, everybody in the room, they know, but everybody in that room said, I coulda hit that B flat the same way everybody knew that they could have made that same mistake the same way. It was nothing to be that way. However, do you imagine sitting in a boardroom and somebody taking a look at Jenn? Yeah. That slide that you had up there with that number. Yeah. That’s wrong. Yeah. You really shouldn’t do that. It’s this other number, everybody. Could you hear what he said to her? Oh my goodness. I could, I should have pulled her aside and, and all this other stuff, but that’s because we have this sort of weird perspective of feedback. Where, so it’s, not the giving the feedback part. It’s the reception of the feedback that is all around. Because like when you play music in a professional jazz ensemble, the status quo is playing it perfectly. It’s not like, Hey, Hey, we only missed two notes. Yay. No, it’s playing it. Perfect. And everyone kind of says, okay, we jobs, you know, you, you hear about session players that play in LA and Nashville for other people’s music. You know, they get paid to play it right the first time. And they don’t. Nobody gets high fives or pats on the back. You just like, like you did your job. I don’t know. You know, thanks for showing up. Here’s your money go in, in, in business. It’s kind of weird. Isn’t it? Where someone says, well, we got close, so close. Yeah. Let’s hi-five.

It’s like, now isn’t the idea to get it right. And if we don’t get it right, shouldn’t someone help us get there and tell us it isn’t right. Or tell us what isn’t going. So it’s not so much the feedback as, as much as to the culture or the perspective that somehow you were outed or you were called out or, or something like that, that’s a bad thing. Let me pause there for your reaction. I feel like I spoke too much.

Jenn DeWall:

No, you think this is great. I love it. You know, I think what comes to mind for me off of that is, you know, I can still think of examples where I think, yeah, everyone absolutely did that. Oh my goodness. Can you hear what just happened? But then also there’s that opposite side of the feedback where, you know, I’m not necessarily feeling bad for that individual getting it, but then I’m also looking person giving the feedback to say, could you have probably said that in a better way? You know, so, and I think that ties into talking about language, which we’re gonna get into because I think, you know, you have to start with the culture. I totally agree with you, Tom. You have to start with paving that culture, creating a culture where people are open to feedback, but then there’s that accountability.

You can give feedback, but you also have to take a little bit more time to be intentional about how you deliver that feedback. I think that so often, especially when it comes down to disseminating opinions, there’s so much ego I’m right. You’re wrong. You are stupid. This is why you’re thing blank. And there’s so much emphasis around proving my worthiness proving my rightness that there’s no emphasis or accountability. And you know what, maybe I can describe that or share that in a different way. So I, I, I love this conversation and where it’s going. And I think it’s so important. We have to have the right culture. And we also have to have the right accountability for the leaders that, you know, depending on your culture, don’t get permission to personally attack, to do X, Y, Z, which I’ve observed in many corporate settings. So I don’t wanna pretend that it doesn’t exist. You know who you are. If you may be that person, you have gotta do some self-reflection and think, is this really productive? So let’s dive into that language component, unless you have a response on that one, but talk about the language that we use as it relates to dissenting opinions.

Becoming a “Business Anthropologist”

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

So I’m gonna start with an example of the economy. So how many times have you heard in the news in the press somewhere? And somebody said it’s a good economy, or it’s a bad economy. The economy is not a thing. It’s just, it isn’t a thing, right? The economy isn’t something that has a measurement, and it needs to be ten and not four. There’s no such thing. The economy is how money gets spent and how we all do business. The good and the bad come in from the point of view, just like, just like, if, if, if, if good things are happening to me, I’m gonna say the economy is good. If bad things are happening to me, I’m gonna say the economy is bad. Irrelevant what actually might be happening out there. Number one, number two, let’s then move closer to the business.

Change is always a good one. It’s a bad change. It’s a good change. Okay. Once again, who says it’s a good change? Well, it’s the people that benefit from the change. The bad change is the people that don’t benefit from the change. And so I think one of the ways is to govern ourselves a little more and start thinking about the qualifiers, good, bad up, down, big, small, right? That we put on to other things in the business. And I hear that language all the time, these qualifying languages, which I’ll tell you from my perspective, cuz I, I consider myself when I’m doing work with executives, I consider myself a business anthropologist, right? Oh, somebody that like dives in and kind of like, like the Indiana Jones of business, right. I’m looking around, and I see the jewels, and I’m trying to figure out how the little gold man got here, right.

And, and it, and it’s very, very interesting. There’s a great, great story. I wanna share with your listeners. One of my academic heroes, Edgar Schein, went to a large organization of a large organization in Switzerland. And the problem was that no one was collaborative. He’s like, we need to be more collaborative. I don’t understand it. So he says, I want you to fly in here, and we’re gonna talk about how we can be more collaborative. So he says, it comes down, he sits down, he’s in the lobby. He looks around, and it’s a beautiful lobby. The receptionist says, you know, so, and so’s ready to see you. He then gets up. They open this big wooden door, and there’s this long hallway with every single door of this hallway until offices closed. And then there are little lights above each of the doorways one and, and some lights were red, some lights were green, and some lights were turned off, and they’re just walking down this hallway and Edgar kind of leans over to of the receptionist and says, can you tell me about these lights? And he goes, oh sure. Red means someone’s in the room, but you don’t disturb them. And you can’t knock. Green means they’re in there, but you have to knock before you go in. And when it’s not on, it means that nobody’s in the office, but all the doors are closed. And he says, I think I know what the problem is. When I look at these kinds of businesses, that, that anthropological look when I am across from the CEO and the CEO says to me- true story- you know, my people aren’t motivated. You know, they don’t wanna change anything. As a matter of fact, every time we have a team meeting on Fridays, everybody sits in the same chair. And I’m going, okay. What’d you do about it?

And he said, what do you mean? What’d I do about it? I’m like, what seems like it bothers you? What did you do? And he’s like, I didn’t do anything. So you just kept doing what you kept doing yourself. You basically telegraphed that status quo, and not doing anything is what everybody should do. So everybody’s following your lead. So you’re talking about language, good, bad, up, down. Closed-door, red light. Don’t do anything, right? These are all giving off signals that create your cultural norms, and you don’t even know it again. I’m not being disparaging. I’m just saying this is human nature. And when you watch it in full display, it’s phenomenal to see not only the problem but how easy it is to fix.

Decision-Making and Leadership Constraints

Jenn DeWall:

I love talking about— did you do anything about it? No. You know, because I think it’s so it’s obvious it’s so easy to complain about anything and not do anything about it. I probably did it two hours ago. Right? There’s yeah. True. That is human nature. And so yes, to reinforce, we’re not judging you. We’re not saying it’s bad, but we are saying maybe there’s a little bit more opportunity to put on your own anthropological hat and say what could really be going on. So I wanna talk about that because why don’t we say something? What are today’s leadership constraints that can make it more challenging for leaders?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Well, I think there are three that come to mind that I think will sum up pretty much what we’ve been talking about. I think the first one is sort of this, this lack of self-assurance. Are you comfortable or uncomfortable with consequences? So make a, you make, when I, and now I’m going make this language on purpose. You make a bad decision. Remember I told you that decisions aren’t bad. That’s the qualifier.

Jenn DeWall:

Just your point of view, which I think should help everyone.

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Exactly.

Jenn DeWall:

Right. They are just a point of view. We, you know, there has to be more research to understand whether they’re bad or good. And it’s just someone’s point of view.

Anticipated Change— The Good, The Bad and the Unexpected

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Yeah. So then you go, you make this bad decision. You made a decision that didn’t get to the outcome you wanted to come; therefore, you qualify it as bad. Are you comfortable with that consequence to be able to say, oh, I screwed up? I need to make decisions. As a matter of fact, I screwed up, but you need to help me fix it. Are you comfortable with that interaction? And does your culture allow for that? That’s one thing. And I’m gonna suggest that that’s a big thing. The second one is this idea of personal values. What I like to do is, is I like to pre-think decisions. I like when I visualize there’s a great video for everyone out there about visualization with Michael Phelps, Michael Phelps, does more swimming in his head than in the pool. And for example, he does this visualization exercise. His coach taught him to think about— what happens if your swim trunks rip when you’re swimming? What do you do? Pre-think that decision. Pre-think all the things that could go wrong all the single time. So when you then jump in the pool, nothing will be a surprise to you. Not only won’t it be a surprise to you, you actually have a solution for it.

Jenn DeWall:

What can I ask a question? Sure. What if you have a tendency, because I see this in my coaching world where sometimes people can be great at visioning or, you know, you can call it scenario planning, but what happens when you just always think that every single thing is gonna go wrong instead of thinking, but what if you know my swim, my swimsuit doesn’t rip. What if I do this? Like, I’m just curious what you say, like how you would respond to that. Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, well, let me make sure that I’m anticipating every worst possible outcome. And then, all of a sudden, you feel more stressed, burned out, disengaged. How would you approach that?

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Yeah. So let, let me give your listener something to jot down to help them out. Basically, there are three types of change that can occur at any time. There’s what’s called anticipated change. It’s gonna go, like, I think it’s gonna go, there’s emergent change. It’s something’s gonna show up that I don’t wanna have to happen, and there’s opportunistic change, which is so something that I didn’t expect to happen, but actually was good. So what I like to do is, so those are the three things that you can have in your visualization. When people are visualizing it, make sure you fill all three buckets, visualize anticipated things, visualize emergent things or things that are anticipated, but not what you wanna have to happen and opportunistic not anticipated, but actually a welcomed sight.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I love that. And thank you for saying that, because again, I just hear that all the time. I’m like, well, well heck what? Of course, you’re not feeling enthusiastic or energized. You think that the world is gonna completely fall apart in the next week. Yeah. That would make me not wanna get outta bed. So I love that!

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Right? So you’re, so you’re, you know, you’ve got two little buckets and opportunistic, and you know, and anticipated, and you’ve got this big emergent bucket. Right. Unfortunately, that’s a very human quality, but I think it would be healthy if people would go that in a cognitive way and just make sure that all buckets are filled.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. So let’s yeah. Let’s go back. Sorry that I interrupted you. I just wanted to ask that. How do you, so let’s go back to talking about personal values and pre-thinking the decision. So you were talking about Michael Phelps’s example envisioning.

Personal Values and Regrets

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Yeah, there, there’s also the other thing that I wanna bring up around personal values around regrets. Now there’s a great book. That’s gonna come out by Dan Pink about regrets. And I look forward to it’s it’s, it’s not out yet. Great authors as everyone, probably on your podcast as listened to, but I have talked, I’ve thought about regrets in the past. And regrets- part of the reason that we have regrets is that we are looking backward with today’s values. So that Friday night in college, when you thought that, you know, having 18 beers was a really good idea, and then getting sick. Well, that night, it was a good idea for whatever reason, you know, maybe even the next day, you regret doing that, but you’re now regretting it with a set of values that are today.

And so that’s why personal values as a whole, it’s very important for you to be in tune with those. And, I regret a ton of things that I’ve done in my past, but because I am using my values of today that have matured over time. And I look back because some of those decisions I made at the time, you know, seem like a good idea because those were my values back then. So personal values were a very important issue with leadership constraints. And that’s why when I’m when I think about people making those decisions, you know, what are you, what are you looking around? What are the value systems that you have? Sometimes people are going— well, I need to keep my job. I’m making the popular decision, even though it’s not the right decision. Well, if you have a personal set of values, that’s like a slap you in the face.

And it’s something that ten years from now, you’re gonna look back and go. I compromised my values. So I think, I think that’s one. And then last, last one, because I have three of these ideas of these leadership constraints is this idea of lack of empowerment. Now, lack of empowerment, if any, didn’t hear me. So lack of empowerment is one of those mushy business terms. Hey, let’s all be empowered, right? I put a little fine point to it. I say empowerment comes with authority and resources. So, and I’m not talking about massive authority. I’m talking about you have a job, Jenn. And if I want to empower you, let’s say, I’m your boss. I need to give you the authority to do it. And I need to give you the resources to do it, in that little cocoon. And I think sometimes when a leader says, I want this to happen, but they don’t empower their people, i.e., resources and authority to get it done. Now you have this sort of artificial leadership constraint. You’re asking people to do this thing with both hands tied behind their back. Yeah. And so I think you have to understand what that empowerment means. It’s not, this shouldn’t be a bullet in your QBR at the end of the quarter to your stockholders, right. It has to be something that actually is out in the field and people can touch and feel and, and be able to act on.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Making sure that people actually can have autonomy over a decision. Or I love that the description of you’re giving people essentially a task to do with both of their hands tied. How are you setting your leaders up for success, including yourself. Exactly. Maybe you need to ask for more autonomy or more responsibility, because I think one piece of that too, is, you know, us advocating for ourselves and learning how to advocate to say, this is what I need. Can you help me instead of saying, well, I guess they didn’t give it to me. So I guess I can’t do it. Not sure why, where I just led it to that tangent, but yeah. I I’ve loved our conversation, you know, so much, I mean, again, the, one of the takeaways that will stick with me is just because a different it’s different doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.

And then I also being mindful of those qualifiers. You can say something is good or bad, but as a matter of fact, it’s likely just a point of view, unless you have data that you can benchmark against a strategy or an expected result to actually say, yeah, this was less-than, where we went. And I think a lot of people missed the boat on actually even assessing that. Or they might look at a top-level revenue instead of looking at maybe a strategy and how that contributed to the revenue. And I think there’s the missed opportunities, Tom. I know I want to invite you back because I think you’re just an excellent, like wealth of knowledge. But I, I want people to be able to get in touch with you and know that we’re coming down on time. How can people connect with you? I know I’m gonna add and talk about one of your assessments in the bumpers, but I want them to hear about that from you first. How can they get in touch with you?

Where to Find Dr. Tonkin

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Yeah, so, so I am all about lowering the barrier of entry to talk to me. I am the, on the other half of the hill of my career. And there is an aspect of me that wants to leave a legacy. And if that legacy is a two-minute phone call that I can tell somebody something from my past- let’s do it. If anybody knows how to use the application Boxer, which is kind of a fancy asynchronous-synchronous voicemail, text messaging thing, very, very cool free at Dr. Tom Tonkin, Dr. Tom Tonkin, box me, I’ve had plenty people do that where they just say, I have one question about something you said on a podcast, and it’d be great. Second. Obviously, there are plenty of places. My party trick Jenn is that if you go to Google and type in Tom-space-Tonkin, I’m on the first page of Google.

And not that I’m famous or anything is that I think I understand how the Google algorithm works. And so that’s a little bit of a party trick. Hey, I, I did that by the way at a cashier, I had, Hey, you got your cell phone. Why don’t you type in any way, a long story, but it was funny. So, and then so yeah, please connect on Twitter, LinkedIn. It’d be hard to miss me. And then lastly, I wanna leave something for your listeners. I talked a little bit about self-direction and self-directed learning, and the ability to be more autonomous in your way. We actually have an assessment, one that I personally researched and created, and in the show notes, there’s a link to it. It’s an obscure URL because it’s not really out yet. It’s gonna be for, for a fee but for you and your listeners, and it’ll be for free. So go head out to the show notes to click on the link. You may be surprised what you find out a little bit about yourself and your own self-direction

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Tom, thank you so much for that special offer for our audience. And again, thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, all of those nuggets that you just shared with us. It was great to have you on the show.

Dr. Tom Tonkin:

Thank you, Jenn. I look forward to doing it again.

Check Out Dr. Tonkin’s Free (For Now) Leadership Assessment!

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Tonkin. If you want to connect with him or learn more, you can actually call him on Boxer. That’s an app. You can call him on Boxer under Dr. Tom Tonkin, or you can connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, if you want to, they’re offering right now a limited time, a DLI assessment for free. So you can follow the link in our show notes, and that will take you to access that assessment. And of course, if you enjoyed this podcast, share it with other leaders to help them grow.

 

The post Managing Dissenting Opinions to Make Better Decisions with Dr. Tom Tonkin, CEO of The Conservatory Group appeared first on Crestcom International.

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sits down with Chris Castillo to talk all about addressing recurring patterns that are sabotaging your success. Chris is the founder of Empowered Achievers, where she works as a career clarity coach, helping millennials build professional lives in small businesses that fulfill their true calling—originally coming from the corporate advertising industry, where she worked with clients like Google, YouTube, and Expedia. She traded in the agency life for the world of talent development and culture. She ultimately created her own company Empowered Achievers. When she realized her deepest calling was to help others find their calling, as well as to transition into a life of fulfillment, doing the work that they love. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris as we talk all about how we can address those recurring power patterns that are sabotaging your success.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. I’m so happy to be joined with Chris Castillo. Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk to our audience all about how we can address those recurring patterns that are sabotaging our success. But before we go there, Chris, would you please just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Meet Chris Castillo, Career Clarity Coach

Chris Castillo:

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. My background is I’m Chris Castillo. I’m the founder of Empowered Achievers, as you mentioned. And I started my business because I’ve been in the same place that a majority of folks are when they come to me. So I’m a career clarity coach. I primarily work with people who are trying to figure out what it is that they want to do within their career. And in my experience, I am an ex ad agency. So I originally worked kind of like at my peak at an ad agency in San Francisco on the Google account. They were my main account and ran all of their mobile media advertising.

And it was very much one of the things that was like a perfect career on paper. I had studied marketing in college, so it seemed kind of like a natural fit. And a few years into working in advertising, I started to have the feeling of, I don’t know if this is actually what I want to do or if I’m just doing it because it seemed like the logical next step from undergrad. And I didn’t know what else to do. And so, finding out that you’ve fallen into your career is not a particularly good feeling. And when I went through it, it was very scary and very isolating. And you think you’re the only one. And so, I started Empowered Achievers in 2016 to help people through that trip. Same transition because when I went through it, it was a little messy, and it took some time for me to figure out what it was that I wanted to do. And my goal is to help make that process easier and smoother for every single one of my clients.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Well, your role is so important today. We obviously, I mean, all the data is there. We know people are leaving, organizations are looking for something, you know, maybe greater more diversity and the opportunities, opportunities for growth, whatever that might be. I’m just so glad that you’re a resource and an asset for someone to have. And, you know, I relate to that. I just, I think as you said, and so many people can relate to that, finding yourself in a career and being like, how did I get here? How did I? Am I happy? Am I just staying here? Cause I really, you know, it’s comfortable. And I think, and we’re talking about, you know, recurring patterns, I’m sure we’ll get into it, but so many people just stay because it’s comfortable. Oh, I’m curious. Are you seeing more people now too? Just cause they’re like, I need to leave. Or like, what are you seeing now as a result of the pandemics impact and kind of this “big quit”?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So totally to your point, staying, cuz you’re comfortable, not that compelling of a reason. But I think when it comes to the last two years, it’s been a super interesting time in the career coaching space because, yes, in my experience, we’ve seen a total shift. My hypothesis, whether it’s true or not—but my theory is that because of the pandemic, a lot of people had all of those additional things that were keeping them satisfied with their job moved away. And then they had to just concentrate on the work and ask whether they liked it. So they left the office, and maybe they were working from home, and they didn’t have the happy hours or the cool perks or the snacks or the coworkers who they really love. Or whatever else, a myriad of things we’re keeping them engaged and excited about their role. And so, at the end of the day, they were stuck just sitting at home, doing the work. And a lot of these people, I think, started scratching their head and saying, Ooh, is this, is this work even exciting to me? And so it’s definitely been an interesting time in this space to see, you know, the fallout of that. Let’s say.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that perspective. And it seems obvious when you say it, and I’m sure someone’s like, Jenn, you could have known better, but no, really you don’t, you kind of forget about those other things that do your work have meaning. Like I love my colleagues. I love being able to come in and say hi to everyone or hear what they’re doing. And it’s just harder to do in this virtual or hybrid world where people aren’t working the same hours, and you’re right, a lot of those things that added so much joy, you know, they, they just look different today.

Chris Castillo:

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. And when they are stripped away, you’re left with just the work, and it’s, and it’s a lot harder to, to stifle the doubts you might be having.

What Are Recurring Patterns?

Jenn DeWall:

So this isn’t the podcast topic, but as a reminder, think about ways that you can engage your people because they may have lost out on some of those social connections that will be important to keep them that’s our, our PSA, to anyone that’s wanting to change to keep them. But of course, we know, and I know that this is true for you too. If you’re not happy, we know that you’re probably not producing the best for the organization or the team. And so it’s okay to leave. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but that’s not where we’re talking. I love the topic that we’re gonna go with. We’re gonna talk about recurring patterns. Okay. So—  recurring patterns that are sabotaging our success. Chris, let’s, let’s kick it off. What are recurring patterns?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So the way I always explain it is the things that just keep happening and happening and happening. And you can’t quite explain why. Right? So oftentimes, when that’s the case, sometimes we might be the common thread, unfortunately. As, as uncomfortable as that is, know it. But I think the way that I can kind of explain it is it’s that current gap between ideal versus reality. So I keep wanting, I keep saying that I want a to happen, but B keeps happening instead. What the heck is that about? Those are the kind of when we talk about recurring patterns. That’s what we mean. The things that keep happening, the things that keep leading you down the path that you say you don’t want, but for some reason, it’s the path you’re walking down anyways.

Common Recurring Patterns That Are Sabotaging Your Success

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. So let’s talk about what those are. So what are some examples of recurring patterns? I mean, I can probably see the one from me of just, you know, being indifferent or just going with the flow, but from your expertise, what do you see most with your clients?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah, so I particularly work with people who identify as I like high achievers. And so those high achievers tend to be the people who have always been, you know, if I want something to get done, I go to you, people on the team, and they’re used to hearing that. And so one that’s really common for them is I have to do all of the things, the feeling like I need to prove myself as an employee because any doubt that I might feel about that I need to cover that up by just working 10 X, as hard as everyone else. So they end up being into the office at those, maybe not so wanted hours. So like, that’s something that we often see as a recurring pattern that we need to address.

This perfectionism and choices of like, I have to make the right choice, that extreme pressure. We often see occurring patterns come up as, as the “should” people think about their career so that when people say the only way to be successful is X, Y, and Z. Like, those are all what I would explain or what I would kind of identify as recurring patterns with clients because these are the things that logically we know better than. And we think we kind of conceptually can say, I know this isn’t true, but we’re going through each day acting as if it is true. Does that clarify?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. No, I mean, I think it rings true, like from that perfectionist standpoint, I think, you know, you probably have heard that expression, right? The recovering perfectionist is one of the recurring patterns that still shows up that I have to combat and just say, okay, it’s okay, done is better than perfect. You’re going to make mistakes. And so I love just shedding light on it. And also, from that leadership perspective, I know at Crestcom, you know, we teach leadership development. And so often in the classes, you just hear leaders feeling like I have to do it all. I have to do it all. And then it’s like, they keep piling on all of it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and it’s like weights on them where they’re just sinking and sinking mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I love that you help people highlight these, but you had said it earlier, sometimes people don’t know they don’t have that self-awareness. So how do you even begin to maybe identify these patterns? How do you help people, I guess, grow their own self-awareness? They might hear perfectionism when you say it, but how do you notice it?

Perfectionism— Ideals vs. Reality

Chris Castillo:

Yeah, yeah, totally. And it can be, it can be tricky. So I think that’s a very fair question. I mean, when I work with clients, we’ll often start by going through all kinds of exercises to look at how do I think about work and what are the challenge challenges that I face? One of the things we’ll talk about is those, we, as we mentioned, the gaps between ideal versus reality. So what are the things you keep saying you wanna do that aren’t happening, and what’s happening instead? And what’s between those things. So it, for example, if I keep saying, I want to leave my job at a reasonable hour and every single time I start a new job, I say, you know, know what this time’s gonna be different. I’m gonna leave at 5:00 PM on Tuesday, and it’s gonna be great. And then, two weeks in, all of a sudden, it’s 9:00 PM, and you don’t know how it happened. That would be an example of a gap between ideal versus reality what you keep saying versus what you’re actually doing. And so those are the things where we have to work on the patterns. And that to me is, I think like the, probably the easiest, most simple exercise you can do to say, Hey, where are my gaps? Where are the patterns that are maybe not serving me in the way I’d like them to? That’s typically a really good place to start.

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, I love that because I think that’s an easy point. Like if you’re listening to this as a leader, what is your ideal? What do you want that to look like? Whether it is within your specific job functions or even what you would want your relationship with your team to be like, mm-hmm <affirmative>, what is that ideal? And what’s your reality? And what’s holding you back from getting there. And I, I think from that leadership space, you know, you had talked about those recurrent patterns of perfectionism feeling like you have to do all of the things or get them all right. Or have of the answers or feeling like no one else can do it but me. And, yet I want people to be competent, but yet I’m not giving them the opportunities to learn. And I’m just saying this for some of the people that still might be. Am I doing this well?

Chris Castillo:

Yes. A 100 percent! And it is, it’s like, it’s exactly like that. It’s like a cycle, right? Because it’s the thing that, you know, better then, right. Con again, at a conceptual level, you can say, like, I know that it’s probably not good for me to think that I’m the only person who can get X, Y, and Z done on my team and that I can’t rely on people. And yet you just keep doing it. That’s how we know it’s a pattern. And so yes, giving someone that exercise, because it is very, very hard to step out and identify with them within yourself. And I think a kind of bonus add-on for that is you can always ask people who know you really well. So like, if you have a partner, a good friend, a manager whom you’ve worked with for years or a mentor, someone who knows you super well, they can also sometimes help clue you in with, Hey, are we seeing a gap of, I keep saying, I want A, but B happens instead. Those people can also sometimes help clue you into those things. If you’re feeling particularly stuck and unsure about what they might be.

You Have to be Ready to Recognize Patterns and Own Them

Jenn DeWall:

Do you ever notice that people are aware of it? And I mean, you talked about this example with, I’m gonna start this new job, and I’m, you know, I’m, I’m gonna work reasonable hours. I’ll be out at five o’clock or whatever that might be every day. But do you ever just notice people being still resistant? Like they might first hear that it’s an issue but really resistant to owning it. Being like, that’s still not me. There’s still something else that’s happening out there.

Chris Castillo:

Oh yeah. A hundred percent. It’s, it’s always, it’s always much nicer too, instead of looking at what can I do about it? It always feels, feels a lot comfier to be like, who else is making this happen to me? So, yeah. That’s, that’s super normal. I think it’s important to know that, when it comes to this thing, our resistance to looking at it, you’re not ready to do it until you’re ready. And that sounds like a silly statement, but I think it’s a really important one to take in. When you think about it until you’re ready to actually deal with these patterns, you’re gonna just keep repeating them, repeating them, repeating them. And that’s okay. Like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had folks at the end of this work say, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I waited, you know, 30 something years to figure this out. I’m like, well, aren’t you glad you figured it out now instead of, you know, waiting for 30 more, and there’s no right timeline. Like you’ll, you’ll be ready to confront it when you’re ready to confront it. But yeah, it can be scary, and people can be resistant. You are looking at it at first because it’s not particularly a comfortable or fun thing to do. <Laugh>.

Jenn DeWall:

No. Well, and I think, and maybe I’m thinking about an example because I’ve worked with people that maybe have that victim mentality. The world is against me. Everything is happening to me. And so, you know, they, again, don’t even have that ability to maybe they see a little bit of how they could be contributing to that, but yet they still want to blame. They wanna say it’s someone else’s fault, or they just want to assume that they have no power. So they’re playing that role of like that victim. And so that’s where that came from, probably because I can just think of that example. The person I wish could hear that.

Being At-Cause vs. At-Effect

Chris Castillo:

You are spot on. I actually had a team lead years ago who explained this concept of being at cause versus being at effect. And the way we were trained on this was you can either be a cause of acknowledging your cause within a situation or at effect, meaning in two situations. So just like that person you’re explaining, maybe you go into a performance review expecting a promotion, and you don’t get the promotion. The at-cause person would say or let’s use at-effect. First, the at-effect person might say, oh my gosh, I didn’t get the promotion. My manager said that I didn’t have enough management experience to start leading people. Isn’t that awful. And then the conversation ends there. The at cause people say, oh my gosh, I went in, I didn’t get this promotion because my manager said I don’t have enough experience managing people. And I guess I didn’t either take on enough projects or take on enough things to show them that even though I haven’t managed people directly, I have the experience that could be applicable to stepping into that role. Right? And so it’s such a slight difference, but a very important one. So to your point, when we’re in that victim mentality of like, well, I guess my hands are tied, it’s not a very empowering place to be. And so that’s, I think, an important distinction that just kind of helps to visualize it that way for me, at least.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. So, and I lo I just love that simple tool. So here it goes to everyone listening. Maybe this is your opportunity to ask yourself if there’s a situation where it’s not bringing you joy. Are you responding in an at cause or an at effect? I love that, Chris. So we talked. We’re obviously talking about self-awareness. How are we showing up? So do you begin to identify your own patterns? Is it really just thinking specifically with the ideal versus the reality, or do you have other tips and techniques that you would maybe reference to help someone get started?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s the easiest way for like a quick approach to this, so typically this is something that I spend weeks and weeks with clients on. We go through a bunch of things, talking about what they’ve seen in roles in the past. Often when I do this with clients, we’re talking about it in the context of what do I wanna do within my career. And so, a lot of the time we spend focused on the pressures of what I think my career should be and the expectations and all of those things. And they often lead us into some certain patterns of, I only look at jobs that, you know, align with whatever it is that I was told was a good career or anything else in that vein. And so, yeah, this is something that I’ll often spend weeks with clients on, but I think in terms of the short version, for people who are listening to this podcast, if they wanna start to say, Hey, what are the patterns in my career that are maybe not as useful to me as I think they are ideal versus reality gap is often a good spot to start.

How Do Recurring Patterns Start?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I love that. You mentioned, like, as you were just sharing a lot of different things that people might experience or reservations that they might have, how do you think some of these recurring thought patterns started for people?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So, for the most part, a lot of these things stem back from things that we’ve heard and then accumulated proof of. Right. So, for example, if you grew up being told often, like be sure you’re making the right choice, is that a good decision? You know, whatever else, things you’ve likely deduced that there are right and wrong choices. And then you’ve probably developed a lot of black and white thinking, and extreme pressure of there is a right choice, and there is the wrong choice. So I better make the right choice, and pressure, pressure, pressure often leads to overanalyzing and inaction. And so it’s the things that we’ve heard that have then kind of like fodder’s been given to them over time.

Another example I would use, which is like a silly one, but I think is kind of help can illustrate how this happened, is the tooth fairy. So if you were a kid and you were told that the tooth fairy is going to come to collect your teeth when you lose them and leave something under your pillow. You are told that that that’s a true thing. You hear it from someone. And then everything you see is going to affirm that this is true. So I put my pillow under the, or I put my tooth under the pillow, and it’s gone the next day. There’s a quarter there or whatever. That affirms to me that this is right or my door was left open, and I put it, you know, closed when I went to bed or something like that. Right. So it’s kind of like things that we’ve heard over time that then get affirmed based on- what is it? Affirmation bias? That’s not the word-

Jenn DeWall:

Confirmation bias! Absolutely confirmation bias. There we go. <Laugh> I mean, I can absolutely see that. I think when I think about even how patterns started for me because this is hard and we talked about going back to childhood that the lessons start there, they absolutely do. You may, whatever that environment might look like. But I also noticed that even though I would save that, I had relatively high self-awareness. What I didn’t realize is that my first, I’m gonna call it, my five to eight years of post-undergraduate career. I don’t even think I realized that the feedback and how I was processing that feedback and applying it to myself was actually creating new patterns. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> or just a new you ways of like, you’re never making the mark, Jenn. You’re always “too this”, you’re just “too that”, like mm-hmm <affirmative> and then it kind of started this need to be perfect. You have to make sure that you’re always, you know, everyone in the room likes you mm-hmm <affirmative>, or if you are assertive, then you know that people won’t like you. So make sure that you, you know, sit back and smile and be not. And then it just starts. And I feel like it perpetuates like, oh, well then in a meeting, I can’t be my ideal self. Like, because in reality, I was told that that was not okay. And so that’s what I think about in terms of even my early years. Because I pick, I picked up so much, let’s call it career baggage as it relates to recurring patterns, those situations.

Chris Castillo:

Totally. No, I think, I think you are spot on it’s it’s not all in your childhood. It’s just the little seeds that get planted whenever they get planted. And then, over time, they grow and grow and grow. Cuz you keep saying, Hey yeah. Remember when someone told me that my personality was a little bit too much. Well, this experience also affirms that my personality is indeed too much, so I better listen to that advice. So yeah, it can happen at any point.

Jenn DeWall:

Which, and maybe, and I know this is a little off-topic, but it’s, I’m curious what you would say is let’s say I got a piece of feedback and how do you discern feedback may be to say, should I apply this to myself? Or should, would I say, Hey, that was great feedback, but I’m actually not going to take that on. I know that’s off, off-script enough where we were gonna go, but it, I think it’s also helpful in understanding that you can choose to stop that before it comes in and becomes a pattern.

Chris Castillo:

Yeah, definitely. I, I mean, I think it’s a, a great question. And I, I guess my kind of quick answer on that is I feel like a lot of that comes with self-awareness and confidence and time, and that’s something that can be built, and it can be developed. But I think part of that like I know at least in my experience, I think for many years I was very beholden to other people’s opinions and how are people gonna respond to this? And, oh my gosh, if I, you know, before I started my business, I had to confront my own head trash which showed up as a pattern of, I keep saying, I wanna start my business, but I never do. Well, that pattern was based on some head trash of, oh my gosh, this would be so what if I, what if I fail and everyone sees and wouldn’t that be the most devastating, embarrassing thing ever.

And so I think, you know, for many years I was very concerned about other people’s opinions, but part of that just came with time and experience and also pushing myself outside of that comfort zone enough to, you know, the first few times I would do things for my business. I kind of had to cover my eyes and hit post. And then, over time, it became so much easier. So I think that somewhat inadvertently answers your question of like, how do we, how do we know what stuff to take on and what stuff not to. I think part of that is time. Part of that’s experience and part of building your confidence and sense of self to know that you are not responsible to anyone but yourself, in a lot of ways.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that you are not responsible for anyone but yourself. You always get to choose what you take on, and you get to choose whether or not you want to entrust that individual’s feedback. They may not even be someone you like yet. You listen to them. Like that is always the piece that, and I know that I’ve done this. It could be someone that I don’t even respect, but then if they give me a piece of negative criticism, I’m like, what! <Laugh>

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What If I Don’t Address My Recurring Patterns?

Jenn DeWall:

So what happens when we don’t— going back to those patterns—what happens if we just sit, you know, kind of on our hands, if we just maintain complacency or just avoid addressing them in general?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So if we see recurring patterns or again, like this is rooted in, as I called it, like the head trash when we have things that are driving our decisions, if we don’t deal with them, they keep ch coming up. Right. So they keep showing up. They keep being in the driver’s seat of the car, so to speak. And it feels like your hands are tied, and you sit there frustrated, scratching your head saying, well, I don’t know why I can’t just start this business, or I don’t know why I can’t just do X, Y, and Z. And it’s because we haven’t dealt with the head trash, and so we’re staying in it, or we’re staying kind of committed to it. So if we don’t address it, it’s gonna just keep repeating itself until you’re ready to address it typically. Yeah. In my experience.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I feel like I see that too. It doesn’t  go away <laugh> you have to be able to address it and, and owning it and saying, yeah, there’s something that I’m doing that might be contributing to why I’m not there. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> I could be frustrated for not growing in XYZ, but if I’m not doing the work mm-hmm <affirmative>, how would I expect that? Or putting in a simple word when I was, you know, doing my Peloton morning thinking I’m like, oh my gosh, she’s so like, she’s so fit. I wanna do that. Jenn, do you commit to the same level of work that she does? I mean, you don’t have to judge yourself if you don’t, but understanding what that takes and addressing it and seeing like you have to also be invested.

Chris Castillo:

I was just gonna say stepping out a little bit- to your point. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s like, I think that’s the important part of it, for sure.

Jenn DeWall:

You talked about living in the gray and that under that, knowing that so many of us were, were raised to like do right or wrong thinking that black or white. I know for me, I can distinctly remember a boss always telling me early on in my career, Jenn, you really need to learn how to live in the gray. Yeah. And I think part of that is like I had this high value of integrity, and so things very much were painted in this black or white. And so then it made it more difficult to even mm-hmm <affirmative> see that things could be a different way. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I don’t know. Like, do you ever struggle with that, or do you notice that your clients struggle with understanding how to live in the gray?

Chris Castillo:

Oh my gosh. Yes! So all of my clients – or no, many of my clients have struggled with that. And I definitely struggled with that. I think I always joke with clients that I’m like, look if it feels like I’m saying something that you’re like, how does she understand the inside of my brain and speak to my soul? It’s probably cuz I felt the same thing before. Right. Because I can, I easily identify like, Hey, are we struggling to set some boundaries with leaving the office? Because we feel like we need to prove ourselves? Because I did that same thing.

Right. So I think it’s important to know that, yeah, this is a universal experience for many people. But yeah, I’ve struggled with that. And I think for me, the thing that really helped with embracing the gray and the fact that I can always decide again, which is something I have to constantly tell myself. And I constantly chat with clients about is, is I think it’s really as someone who really likes to see the world with like certainty and yes there is right, and it is wrong and do the right thing and being taught to make the correct, the honorable choice and da da, da, da, to your point, it’s very like morally based. I think it was always hard for me to deal with uncertainty. And I think one of the things that were really helpful for me was when I acknowledged that the world is chaos, which sounds like a scary acknowledgment, but then I acknowledged on top of that, that I am my certainty.

Know What You Can Control— Yourself

Chris Castillo:

So what I mean by that is like, there are gonna be things that are gonna happen. I had a baby in February 2020, and I definitely can tell you, I did not expect a global pandemic to start one month into her being alive. <Laugh> there are a lot of things I foresee, that was not one of them. I’m sure many people agree whether they had a kid at that time or not. And so, you know, there are always gonna be the unexpected things, but how I deal with things, how I respond, how I handle things is my sense of certainty. And that actually really helped me. Because it allowed me to acknowledge, like, yes, there are things that I can’t control, but I can control myself. I can deal with myself. I can look at the things that I can impact because instead of trying to control the things that are way outside of my control, I instead just focus on trying to control the things that I can actually control. Am I getting enough sleep? Am I feeling like doing things that I can do? Yes. And that reframe has really helped me.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Focus on what you can control. So let’s talk about what you can control! How can you start to create new patterns to stop sabotaging your success?

Reframing How You Think About Your Recurring Patterns

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So when it comes to reframing the way we think about things, I think what’s the most important step that people often wanna skip is looking at why they’re there in the first place. So often, what I see is people say, okay, yes, there is this recurring pattern of, you know, struggling to set boundaries at work. And what that’s about is, you know, I feel like I really need to prove myself as an employee. I had one client who, when we looked at, okay, why do you feel like you need to work all these hours?

She had this realization that she was like, both my parents, my, my dad came from Cuba. My mom came from China, and both my parents are immigrants. And so there’s this thought that, like, I feel that I need to make all of their effort to come here worth it. Right. So whatever it is, that’s the thing that’s driving you to stay in this pattern. I think it’s important to look at it. Why, where it comes from, what has told us that it’s true and how it serves us to keep it around. Because I think people so often try and jump quickly to like, oh, well I, I think that I need to prove myself. So now I’m just gonna say I don’t, that’s called repression, and it’s not really a great approach to deal with these things. <Laugh> so instead, we wanna focus on you know, why is it here? How has it served me to keep this around? And then, you know, leaving the things that are useful. What’s a healthier reframe? So yes, maybe you know, I like, I wanna show that I’m a good employee, but it’s not just the hours that make me a good employee, for example.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Yeah. I love like it’s I love that. And I think when you’re saying too, cuz I think this is often a piece that goes overlooked and it’s the piece of giving yourself grace. And I know you and I are both coaches, but giving yourself the grace to understand that you picked up these patterns at a point where it was likely helping you in some way. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you weren’t wrong when you picked them up. You observed, you gave the example of the individual whose parents were from Cuba and China, and they observed that and so they picked it up and they knew that their parents might be happy. Maybe that’s what it was- that they could appease their parents by doing that. And so then you programmed it in, and I think this is an important piece. A lot of people, I think, can go down the path of judging themselves. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> gosh, why did I do that? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> how did I pick that up? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> no, these were natural things that you likely just picked up to help you be successful in the first place.

Chris Castillo:

Mmm-Hmm <affirmative> yep. That’s not serving you anymore where you, so no shade. Don’t be mad about it, right? Yes. Exactly. People are so quick to judge themselves for it. And like, I think it’s helpful to know to anyone who’s listening to this. I have never met a single person who has no weird head trash when it comes to their career. No one I’ve ever worked with has there’s a lot of people who think they don’t, and then they start this work, and they go, Ooh, maybe there is something there. But it’s very common. So definitely don’t feel that you are alone or isolated in it, because it’s so, so, so normal.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And I’m just gonna call this out too because if there is someone listening that, you know, I have no issues, I have no challenges. I guess my question would be, are you still growing? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> because when we say that, then it implies that we don’t need improvement. We have reached perfection, which you know, doesn’t exist. And I don’t know if you get that. I sometimes get that, you know, I could be delivering a keynote. I could be delivering a class, and sometimes you’ll have that person. That’s like, this doesn’t apply to me. It just applies to everyone else. No, really, it does. They just maybe don’t have that self-awareness yet. Or they haven’t been challenged with a coach to say, let’s challenge that a little bit. <Laugh> so do you have any response to that?

Chris Castillo:

People want to have grown, right? They want to reach the end destination a lot of the time. And to your point, I like to push clients to say, gosh, wouldn’t that be depressing? Wouldn’t it be sad if we got to the place where we’re like, okay, well, I guess I’m kinda done growing? So it’s just a slow slide to the end now. Right? Like, gosh, that sounds depressing. And so it’s a silly thing, but like I think that illustration actually does help me sometimes. To be like, it’s actually the growing and the process, and yeah, it can be uncomfortable to be going through the process, but there is not really an end goal. I mean, there’s an end that we’re moving towards, but we don’t really ever reach it typically because wouldn’t that be kind of sad.

Jenn DeWall:

There is no endpoint! If you’re not growing, you’re dying. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So when you go through, you know, you’re, you’re learning how, or like you’re thinking about that recurring pattern, how you’re doing that processing, where you can say, you know, how it served, you doing that reflection of understanding without judgment, just curiosity mm-hmm <affirmative> what would be any insights you have for the reframe that can help someone think like, okay, what’s my reframe to this. Because I think when you’re stuck in that thinking, sometimes people are like, reframe what? No, I own this and live with this for the rest of my life because I thought it <laugh>.

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So I think it’s, it’s hard to explain verbally, but like when I visualize it with clients will typically well write out, okay, where did this come from? How has it served me? How has it not served me? And then we look at all those things to build our reframe with that in mind. Because again, I think it’s important. What we don’t want is the overswinging of the pendulum. So we don’t wanna just say the opposite of the thing that we’ve always thought because that’s not gonna work. We’re not gonna buy it. But instead, we wanna push ourselves a little bit. So, for example, if you’ve always told yourself, the only way to be successful is in a nine to five, maybe you can, instead of saying, no, the only way to be successful in doing your own business. That’s not necessarily the counter we want. Instead, maybe it’s something like there are a lot of ways to be successful. And to me, success would feel like A, B and C. And so we want to like, look at why you’ve kept that around what it’s served you, what it’s protected you from to believe that thing. Whether it’s the only way to be successful is corporate or whatever else, baggage that you have. We wanna take some time to look at it. So then we can take that into account, into our reframe, to just push ourselves a little further. Because essentially, the thing with head trash is its stuff that can go through but is not 100% of the time true. And when we get into trouble is when we say without fail, this is always, you know, the answer. Does that answer your question? Yeah. I feel like it’s, it’s very a meaty kind of hard to talk through verbally.

Jenn DeWall:

I think it’s great. And it brings up. I feel like I’m gonna call them maybe “traditional” leadership rules. And one that I, that came to mind as you were talking is when I was early on my career, there was always this rule. Like if you’re, you know, if you’re working later than six, you’re committed <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> or, and I think that one took a long time to break because it created this culture of like everyone was competing to be the first in the last out. So you could show how great you were. And I think that it was so hard for me initially to go into an organization that maybe did practice work-life integration. And I was like, what, what do you mean? People are, people, are coming in at nine 30 don’t they know that you have to get in early to be successful? Wait, you’re leaving early for a soccer game? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I mean, I just think about that because it is true. It’s taking power back, like just because someone gave you that pattern or that might have been a learned lesson from that culture, you know, the reframe is just the switch in definitions of it. It’s not, you know, who’s to say that because you’re working 90 hours that you’re putting in the best work or that you always have to work 10 hours a day to be a valued employee? I mean, on the flip side, you could maybe not be as efficient, right? Yeah. You could be talking or whatever.

Chris Castillo:

And then you’re over there, dredging everyone else saying like, oh, did you see that Sally didn’t arrive till 10. Right. And all you’re doing is, is yeah. Shooting yourself in the foot because, yes, there’s so much more to being a good employee than the hours you work. But I think if we can’t push ourselves beyond that, it can be very limiting and very challenging. And we have to be the first one to actually deal with our stuff before we can you anything about it? So I could never actually get up and leave to go to the workout class that I wanted to go to at 5:00 PM until I dealt with my own feelings of, oh my gosh, everyone’s gonna get up and point and say, “Loser! She’s not trying very hard!” whenever I was scared was gonna happen. Right. You know, you do it a few times, and the walls don’t crumble, and you say, okay, so maybe this is something that was a me-supported concern.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. I mean, get curious. What would be your last? Maybe I know that we’re wrapping up this podcast. What would be any last pieces of advice or insights you would want to share? You would want people to know as it relates to, you know, addressing these reoccurring patterns?

Remember You Are Not Alone

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. I mean, I think I know I mentioned it before, but I do think it’s really important to acknowledge one- you are not the only person who is feeling these things or having these fears or having head trash. So many people have stuff. Stuff might look a little different, but everyone has stuff. And then also you, you, until you’re ready to learn them, that is the right timeline. So don’t feel like, oh my gosh, I need to do all of this now. Or don’t feel like, oh, I should have learned this before or whatever else is coming up for you. I think that can be like a really common sentiment of this. And I think maybe it’s because I tend to work with perfectionist high achievers that maybe I hear more of this, but there can be a lot of this pressure of like yeah— needing to, to get through all of this quickly. But once you’re ready to learn it, you can take the time to learn it, take the time to do it right. And then you can move forward. There’s no rush in the process, unfortunately. But yeah. That’s how you get to actual results.

Jenn DeWall:

You are exactly where you are supposed to be. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> Chris, how do people get in touch with you? I know we’re gonna talk about this in our closing outro, but just in case they wanna hear from your mouth, how do they get in touch with you?

Chris Castillo:

Yeah. So, Chris Castillo, I am the female Chris Castillo, which normally makes me easier to find cuz a lot of people don’t expect me to be who I am when they look for me. My business is Empowered Achievers, and you can find me at BeEmpoweredAchievers.com.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much, Chris, for sharing your time, your expertise, all of the knowledge and stories. We are so grateful. Thank you for reminding me to again take that ownership around what patterns are holding me back that, you know, are keeping me from that ideal that I want to actually achieve. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Chris Castillo:

Thank you so much for having me.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Chris, and I hope that you did too. And if you want to get to know more about her, there are multiple offerings, but to learn more about Chris, the coaching that she offers, or her self-study program, the Purpose Chaser School, go to BeEmpoweredAchievers.com, where you can schedule a free exploratory call. If you know someone that could benefit from this, please share it with them. And of course, if you’ve enjoyed it, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

 

The post Recognize the Recurring Patterns That Are Sabotaging Your Success with Career Coach Chris Castillo appeared first on Crestcom International.

Set Up Your Team for Success in 2022 with Leadership Team Coach, Nikhil Paul

In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we talk with Nikhil Paul. For those that may not know him, Nikhil is a leadership coach who founded We R Human to help senior executives and their teams strengthen their focus culture and execution through engaging workshops and coaching programs today on the podcast. Nikhil and I will be talking about how you can set up your team for success in 2022.

Full Transcript Below:

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jen DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with leadership host Nikhil Paul- whoa, host? I mean coach! That’s what we’re talking about. We’re here to talk about leadership. So Hey, you know, I, I always like leaving in a little bit of the flubs because that’s reality. Yeah. I could do everything perfectly all the time, but that is just not a realistic expectation, but I love that. Because I know that when we’re talking about mistakes when we’re talking about flubs, that also is the role of a leader in talking about team success, which is what we’re gonna be talking about today! So while we’re starting out, could you just go ahead and introduce yourself tell us your story. How did you come to be— how did you start or found We R Human? I wanna hear it all.

Meet Nikhil Paul, Team Leadership Coach

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And as a leadership team host – I’m just kidding. <Laugh>  yeah, no, thank you so much, Jenn, for having me. You know my journey into becoming who I am today. It’s like everybody else, right? It’s like it’s meandering. It’s twists and turns; it’s ups and downs, highs and lows. And you know, I’m actually an immigrant. So one of the things I kind of take when I come into this, any situation or any kind of environment, I always I’m grateful for being where I am. It wouldn’t have been possible if I did, wasn’t able to come to this country and learn and see, and kind of get recognized for some of my skill sets and very early on in high school. That was one of my skill sets that people were like, oh, you’re so good at is public speaking.

And so that is the common vein in a lot of my career— that I kept pushing into talking in front of large groups, trying to MC events and like lead workshops. And so I started out as a startup founder, and I actually built an employee engagement software company a couple of years outta college. And with that startup, I learned a lot about the culture problems and the motivation challenges that big companies are having with their employees. And I also, you know, got to work and interact with them and see it from behind the scenes as well. After a bunch of years of doing that, I kinda, you know, had to shut that down. And I kept moving on. I, I was thinking about it. I was like, you know, I really did enjoy the culture. I really did love motivating people, especially with my team and with the employees who were using our software.

But I was like, OK, finding the next iteration of my entrepreneurship journey. How do I kind of do this again? What should I do? And that’s where I leaned into my skillset of being in front of a group of people being able to like host and see and narrate, and I love it. I love being in front of people. And so that’s the Genesis of, We R Human. When I came up with this idea for the second generation of my career and this entrepreneurial journey, I was like, I wanna, I don’t know exactly what I wanna do, but I know that I wanna do something that taps into something that’s deeply meaningful and that something we all share, and our shared humanity. And We R Human is kind of born from that, this idea of the kind of connecting with people on our most root, vulnerable level as we try to get better, learn, laugh, love more. And so, as part of this journey, I work with teams. I work with companies. I worked with communities. And what I found that I really loved the most was working with passionate people working on moonshot projects. I just realized I absolutely loved it. People are committed and trying to make something happen for the better of their company, their customers or their community. I really was attracted to it. And that’s how I fell into the world of leadership team coaching. And so that’s what brings me here today.

Setting Your Team Up for Success by Remembering We Are All Human

Jenn DeWall:

You know the name, We R Human. I love that because you talked about it. It hits the most. It hits our vulnerable level, the place of who we are as individuals, not just the title that we might show up and come and punch the clock with. <Laugh> I’m curious what your, because I don’t know if 10, 15 years ago, if the name We R Human, would’ve been as meaningful because I still think there was this old notion of, Hey, these are people they should be happy to have a job. What do you mean? Emotions don’t exist at work? I don’t care if they’re human beings. Yeah. I’m curious if you feel like there’s a change where people are, are starting to really engage in the notion of seeing the whole person, because I think that that’s, I love your business name because I just, we are all human. We are trying to do that. Yeah. But I’m curious, your thoughts are in whether or not you’ve seen a change through culture is starting to be more, you know, really inclusive in that regard of seeing that whole person?

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah. A hundred percent right. And it’s kind of like these tectonic shifts and generations and culture because when we, our grandparents, were in the workforce, it was all about just making sure you have a nine to five. It’s a lifetime commitment. That’s your identity. You know, don’t complain and work hard. Right. And then, by the time our parents’ generation came in, the focus was a lot more on making money and getting bonuses that like really kind of focusing on the wealth and the amalgamation of it. I think by the time the millennials and my generations come in, it’s about trying to find meaning in our work. Right. And I am trying to imbue it with a sense of purpose. And so I’m definitely seeing that, like, it’s kind of awesome to see kind of some of my classmates and people that are within my generation really think about, OK, how do I connect to this company?

Or what, what does this product mean to me? And I think that’s the step in the right direction because we spend literally one-third of our lives working. And of course, look, we are not always gonna be working at our dream jobs. And sometimes we have to do things just to pay the bills. But if you are not able to find the way to kind of transform your work into something a little bit more special, a little bit more magical, then you’re kind of missing out on the secret of work. You have to find a way to enjoy the dreary, the dull because there’s, there’s always beauty in the corners and the small things you don’t see. And I, and I love that idea of trying to kind of empower the work that we do, even if it’s not the most like, amazing, inspiring, exciting. Because not all of us get that lucky to work on our dream careers. You have to find a way to find the beauty in it. And so that that’s, I definitely agree.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, I like that you bring that up because I think, you know, lately, I see a lot of people, Hey, let’s, let’s help you find your dream career. Let’s help you find this. And I used to really buy into the fact that you can have a fully dream career and you can’t. I love what I do. I love what I do, but here’s the truth about it. I still have things I don’t like to do within that dream career. There are still things that we don’t like. I don’t love 100% of the things that I do because, you know what? Some things are outside of my strengths, outside of my interest. And so I’m just gonna plant the seed that for whoever might be feeling like I’m not my dream job because I hate X. That’s OK! A dream job is learning how to find what you said, I forget exactly how you said at the beauty in the corner, you know, looking within and finding that it doesn’t have to be 100% perfect all the time because that’s not the reality of life ever. So how can we even have that expectation?

Nikhil Paul:

<Laugh> yeah. A hundred percent, it’s honestly, not everyone’s ever going to find a dream job. And I think people have the same thing with like titles and outcomes, like the money we make or the titles that we gain. It’s like, nothing is going to make us fully that happy. Right. Because the moment you achieve it, or you get something, or you’re in your dream career, then there’s just the work. After the high wears off, the dopamine goes away. That is just the doing of being, and actually being present in your life and whatever that is like you may be, you know, for me, I love being in front of, like I said, a team of people and those moments to me in like the happiest and the highest. But if all I had was that all the time, I would never really appreciate that. I would get used to it. I would just be like, OK, whatever. Right. But if you go through the boring and the darker times of life and you struggle through it well, then by the time you come back again to what you love or you that what you’re finding that you’re the most joy, then you’re going to really appreciate it. So you need both. You can’t just be in this like Lala land where every moment of your life or your work, even if it’s your dream career, it’s this blissful thing. It’s impossible. The brain doesn’t work like that. Yeah. So, yeah, I agree. <Laugh> yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

And no one is living 100% of the time loving all the things, despite what you see on social media. So remember that!

Nikhil Paul:

That’s exactly right. So

Jenn DeWall:

We’re gonna be talking about how to set up your team for success in 2022. It’s I think it’s probably a question that a lot of leaders have right now. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> what do we want to accomplish? What do we want this year to look like? I’m sure there’s still maybe a lot of leaders that are doing triage right now where people are out sick, or they have vacancies as a result of that big quit. So I’m, I know that a lot of people are gonna appreciate this situation or excuse me, this conversation, because we’re going to give you on what you can do, or I should say we’re, <laugh>, you’re gonna give them the difference. So let’s start out, like, where do you even begin when you think about how do you set up your team for success in 2022? If you were putting yourself into the shoes of that leader, where would you say to start?

Set Your Team Up for Success By Finding Purpose

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So the short answer is it’s its purpose, right? So it goes back to that thing we were talking about with meaning, right. I think as you can see with the great resignation that’s happening, people have realized, look, I don’t have to work at this job if it’s gonna make me miserable like I can figure out other ways to live. And, and it’s this whole new thing. And so if you are an employer or you are a leader of a team, and you are trying to motivate and get people together, try to figure out the great purpose of your work. And I know that sounds a bit farfetched for people are doing kind of like, you know, basic software or like boring products that maybe people are not as excited by, but there’s always some beautiful purpose there.

And it’s your job as a leader to find it. And I’ll, I’ll give you a quick example. Bill George was the CEO of Medtronic, and Medtronic was a medical device company. And, you know, again, medical devices, maybe not the most like, oh my God, amazing. But he was really passionate about it. And he would constantly go about visiting people, the employees, factory workers, the doctors, and the patients. And one day, a doctor was literally so angry at him. And he threw a malfunctioning -he showed him a malfunctioning pacemaker that their company had made. And he threw it at him and said, look at what you’re doing. This is messing up. This is killing my patients, and you have to fix this. And so the bill was very like, he was just, he like, that was the fire under his butt. Like he was like, OK, I need to figure this out.

So he basically, from that day on, he would start bringing in patients into the factory floor of his company, of the pacemaker making shop. And he would bring them through, and he would have these patients talk about their experiences, how life-saving, literally life-saving these pacemakers were. And it would be these really meaningful stories. And by the end of it, the people on the factory floor were crying because of how meaningful and how touched they were by their stories. From that day onward. Do you think any worker would allow a pacemaker to leave that factory that is not functioning right? Because they feel a sense of deep purpose. They’re connected to a greater mission, and it’s a real mission. It’s not just some fluffy we’re doing this to gain market share, or we’re doing this because you know where we need to be innovative. It’s something real; they’re touching people’s lives. And so that’s the first thing I always think about any team that’s coming in, try to find a real human story that connects why you all wanna work on what you’re working on.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s so important. I think there are companies that sometimes think by having that mission statement, maybe having that overall organizational objective, that that’s enough. And to some extent, in the example of Medtronics, absolutely. You could probably clearly see how you’re helping the quality of life of others.

Nikhil Paul:

That’s right. That’s right.

Jenn DeWall:

But, and there’s something I noticed in some of the coaching conversations I’ve had this week. Which is how do you instill purpose when they don’t care? And this example is one where I know that it’s the start of the year. A lot of companies might be thinking about how can I make my workforce healthier? So I’m going to set up incentives. Because they know at the end of the day, it’ll save the company money. That’s not enough of a purpose for that person to want to do that. So weird. Do you think people get it wrong when they’re trying to bring out that purpose from people?

To Keep Teams Motivated – Focus on Your Mission and Follow Through

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah. That, that’s a great question. Because you see this all the time in companies, right? Like the company will have a mission, or you go through their offices, they’ll be like, these are the things we’re trying to do. And I think, again, it’s all great efforts. It’s all people trying to take steps in the right direction. What they kind of lose sight of is making a, making it real and connecting to why those people are there, to begin with. Right. If I’m working at a company and I’m a leader at that company, there’s a; there’s a value connection there. There’s a reason I wanna help people who are suffering medically. Maybe I have a father who has a medical condition. Right. So, so part of things is you ha as a leader, you have to figure out a way to connect it to something real.

Right. And, and so the way to kinda do it is, think about a superordinate goal. Imagine if there was like I love Marvel the, you know, the adventure series. And Thanos is kind of what I consider a superordinate Villa, right? He’s the villain that brings together all the years that they come together. So even though they’re all clashing personalities and they don’t necessarily work together in the beginning, by having this overwhelming, like, oh my God, this big kinda superordinate problem in front of them, they band together. So similarly, as a leader, you need to figure out what is the superordinate goal that’s gonna bring a group together. And that’s the first part of it. It has to. That’s how you deeply motivate people, first and foremost, by connecting to something that brings them together. Secondly, it also has to be a sense of focus.

The other thing, why people get demotivated, and they’re not as, you know, following through on their mission or whatever their purpose is, is because they’re not able to make real choices with their mission. Right? Sometimes it gets a little too hazy. It gets a little too up in the air. So part of a leader’s job is to be clear about what we’re focusing on with this mission, with this larger team purpose. And even more importantly, what are we not? What are things we’re saying? No, if you can give that clarity to your teammates, then you’re empowered. Now they know, oh, this is how I can act in my purpose. This is how we actually get to make this purpose come real. And so that’s the other part I always think about. So it’s not only the motivation, finding that big superordinate goal, that’s motivating them and rallying them, but it’s. Also, it’s like this decision-making kind of touchpoint that helps them individually or together make decisions on this is what we’re definitely gonna do this, definitely what we’re not going to do.

Jenn DeWall:

A decision-making touchpoint. It’s so important. I mean, maybe I’m speaking, you know, for someone else here, or maybe I’m speaking from my past experience <laugh> but maybe someone can really, one of my biggest struggles or I would call it my own personal, like pet peeves at work, is feeling like, you know, me as an individual, I want to do so well at my job. That’s very important to me. I take a lot of pride in my work. Yep. And what makes it challenging is when I do feel like there are competing priorities, mm-hmm <affirmative> and Hey, we want you to do this. This is our next initiative. And this one and this one, no, we’re not gonna prioritize them. They’re all of equal importance, which then, you know, triggers that, oh my gosh, how am I even there are not enough hours in the day.

Jenn DeWall:

Yep. And then also it creates an ambiguity of where do I even start and how do I measure myself or should I just make sure I’m doing enough just to, you know, move a little bit that’s. And so I appreciate that you talk about the focus because it really is a pain point for me. I struggle a lot when there are so many competing initiatives being pushed down at me because I just want to say, how are you actually going to measure this? If you just think we can do every single thing. And I love that you called it that decision touchpoint if you just focus. Yeah. You get people permission to also focus. But if you’re not focused, you’re just creating more chaos for the people that report to you or the people that are likely like me want to do a good job, want to do what you need them to do, want to help what’re organization succeed. But you’re doing them a disservice by having too much.

Nikhil Paul:

That’s exactly right. And as a result of that, you know, you’re demotivating them. So, you know, if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. Do you know what I mean? And that’s exactly what you just pointed out. Like, this is one of the biggest things I see teams do all the time. It’s like, well, we gotta do a little of this. And ultimately, they’re not really moving the ball forward. That much of what they should be doing to achieve their purpose. Right. Or, or their basically every idea that comes out, they’re like, this is the next big thing. Like it’s a shiny object syndrome where they’re like, oh my God, this is gonna change it. And so before, you know, it, every three to four weeks, you’re jumping from one idea to another. And so, these are biases. These are cognitive, kind of like you know, inclinations that we all have. So we have to be mindful of that. And that’s why the purpose is a really good point—this kind of use this. And as like, again, that decision touchstone say, OK, what are we definitely gonna say yes to? And what are things we’re definitely gonna say no to so that our people don’t feel demotivated after a while? They’ll just check out if we don’t get this right.

Jenn DeWall:

Which right now, again, there are a lot of options, and there are a lot of vacancies that they can go to. And this is one small thing. You’re just saying, by the way, this is more important than this. When I’m handing this down, that’s great, and it’s just so interesting that it is such a, it’s, you know, two sentences that you can say that I feel like go a long way.

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Set Up Your Team for Success with Psychological Safety

Jenn DeWall:

So we’re starting with, how do you set your team up for success in 2022? It starts with setting up that purpose you had said and then making sure that it’s a purpose that brings people together. And then, of course, that it’s focused that you’re not spreading your purpose or out on all these things that you’re not actually going to yield any final, or I guess anything that’s going to move the mark. Where do you go after you have that purpose?

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah. So once you have the purpose and people feel very motivated and they have a clear sense of what they need to do, the next thing is you need to work on your, what I like to call your culture covenant, right? Because when you have a group of people that are working in a high-performance team, they have to have trust. Because if you don’t have trust with each other, you can’t do much. And that’s, you know, it’s that the core basis of trust in how you, as a leader, know, if you have trust is you can create an environment of safety. And this is something Google has done studies on and found out the trait of the most powerful teams that they have in their company is this feeling of psychological safety. So as a leader, that’s what you have to focus on.

But trust sometimes is like a little hard to, you know, do I trust this person? OK. I dunno what that means. Maybe I do. I don’t, but safety is very clear. You either feel safe with a group of people, or you don’t feel safe. It’s binary. And so, as a leader, that’s the first thing you wanna work on. You wanna create that foundation of safety so that then you can; people start building trust with each other. And once they trust, then they start actually debating and arguing, having constructive conflict, which is the next step you wanna build on top of that. And so that’s the real crux here. You wanna get the team to get into a good place and have very strong, vigorous, real debates and have rules around how to have those debates and how to make those decisions, right? Those are the two cultural touchpoints. You wanna then bring into the team. How are we working together? And what are the culture covenants we should focus on?

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you bring up psychological safety! In some circles, in some conversations? I think there’s a lot of people that are in agreement that psychological safety, you know, we’ve seen those, those studies by Google, by Microsoft, by a lot of different people. And, but yet I’m still meeting people that I think are like, what the heck? What do you mean? Why? That doesn’t make sense! And so I think it’s interesting. I know what sets a lot with diversity, equity and inclusion. But if you would say what psychological safety is in the easiest way, because I, I feel it is just feeling like I am gonna be accepted at work. I feel that I’m not going to be retaliated against, that people are going to have transparent conversations. I’m not sure how you see that, but I guess my question that I’m getting to is why do you think that people still maybe are reluctant to take that and say psychological safety? <Laugh> like, why are we talking about this again? We’re going down that avenue of emotions, psychological safety, yes. Safety. I get it. But psychological safety. What, where do you think that’s people are still resistant to that?

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah. I think people are resistant to that. Maybe it’s because it feels like this should be something we’ve already done. It’s kind of like, Hey, we’re already working together. We’re professionals in a working environment. We don’t need to make this more complex than it needs to be. But the truth is, it’s like- this is like a relationship you’re in, right? If you have a partner, you can’t just go on stasis. Like it doesn’t like a relationship where you guys take each other for granted and just do the same old thing. That’s a relationship slowly wearing itself down. Right. You have to be mindful. You have to vest. That’s the same thing with trust and psychological safety. So like with trust, you have to make sure you’re being intentional about it. Because it’s left to our own devices, we start becoming very protective.

We become more siloed. We become more about ourselves. And so that’s why you need to bring that about. I think a lot of leaders are like, no, we got it. We already have safety. We already have trust. We, I don’t need to kinda get into the weeds again, but it’s not about getting into the weeds again. It’s about working on your fundamentals. No matter what, you still have to work on your fundamentals and check in with the team to make sure that this fabric on which trust is built is not frayed. And so psychological safety to me, the basic question that you can ask is, do you have my back, right? Do you have my back? When I offer an idea that might sound silly, do you have my back when I criticize you in front of others and say, Hey, maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Do you have my back when I mess up? Right? So that’s the point here. If you don’t have that, people don’t take chances. People are not real. People are not bold. And that’s when your team starts getting more sluggish, and they start becoming less high-performing. They start going backward.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And that’s very valuable. I think about, you know, all the examples that you just shared. And, you know, I think there’s a lot of people right now that might be feeling, I have these vacancies to fill, and everyone just wants money. And I would actually argue that I would rather have a place where I feel supported than make 20,000 or 10,000- whatever that number is- more per year because I want to make sure that I feel safe and supported because it alleviates stress for me. I feel confident. I feel like I can contribute in a greater way. So for those that maybe are still thinking that, oh my gosh, this is annoying. Why do I have to do this? You’re just, again, like slowing down to speed up. You can make people and create the right environment for them to thrive. And then maybe those other things aren’t that big of an issue. And I had this conversation recently, like once those scales tip that’s when, if I’m not feeling supported, well, then you better believe I’m gonna want more money. Because I’m gonna, you know, have less, I guess, tolerance for, if you’re not going to treat me like a person and make sure that safe at work- well then, OK, make sure that you pay me what I deserve. <Laugh> I feel like I’ll be able to make, make concessions for things just to feel supported, like right. It means something.

Nikhil Paul:

That’s so interesting. That’s exactly right. Yeah. That’s right. That’s exactly right.

Set Up Your Team for Success—With Conflict?

Jenn DeWall:

So where we go, we create, we focus on culture, and then we go into talked about conflict, which I love like, so getting into conflict because I think, again, that’s one of the things, or, you know, at Crestcom we teach leadership development. And I think when we’re talking about managing conflict, it does not just have the process. It’s also addressing the culture of your team. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so where do you go when you’re thinking about we’re setting our team up for success, we’ve got, we’re being mindful of culture, then where are we going? As it relates to conflict?

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah. So, you know, conflict is, to me it’s kind of that final loop around culture, right? Huh. Because the, for me, conflict is where the rubber hits the road. Right. And you’re actually being able to kind of work out the kinks in the system, and you’re all bettering or creating or manifesting something more important. That’s when a team starts actually coming together and becoming more than the sum of their parts. Right. And so, for me, the problem with conflict for a lot of people is that no, we don’t like tension. <Laugh> I think, you know, I was just, I was actually writing a post about this. Martin Luther King, in his letter from Birmingham jail, said I am not afraid of the word tension. Right. And he was saying that because he was defending his need to agitate.

And, and I think back then, a lot of people were like, you know, why don’t you just negotiate rather than lead marches and sit-ins. And because he’s like, listen, you don’t get it. If you don’t have tension, you are not going to address the real problem. And that’s true for societal issues, as well as our professional and team issues. If we don’t have healthy conflict, we’re going to address the root emotional problem. And once you address it, only then do you understand the scale of the problem? Do you understand the subtleties? Do you understand the urgency? Right? And so it’s very important that there’s some level of healthy conflict like there’s tension in the team to help get the best ideas out there. You know, research has shown that the more cognitive diversity that you have, you’re going to have more conflict, but that’s a good thing because the best ideas come from great debates, right?

Ideas that are made in isolation by like this really like visionary leader, they don’t work that well. I mean, we might have stories about the single founder or one person being this amazing genius, this brilliant jerk. But the truth is ideas that are created in a team that’s really highly vetted and debated and reasoned and rationalized. Those are the ones that ultimately have the most success. So, that’s why conflict is so important. It really helps elevate the output, the creativity, the originality of the, and so that’s the second part. I always think about it with a high-performing team.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that for those that might be afraid of conflict. Maybe it’s just looking at it as tension. And you need the right amount of tension. Yeah. Think that, you know, there are so many negatives, many people are afraid of it. I don’t know why I’m less afraid. Probably I should be probably more afraid. <Laugh> But I think it’s personality, but I absolutely know people that it’s, it is really off-put or, and don’t get wrong. There are certain circumstances where of course, it’s really uncomfortable, but the tension is where growth is tension and that, you know, that’s where we’re helping each other challenge the status quo. And, but yet it is, I love that you do put it as part of culture because yeah. You can read a book on the appropriate way to resolve a conflict, have a conflict. But if you don’t have that as an established norm, it doesn’t matter how you apply that.

That’s exactly right. <Laugh> I mean, it’s, you know, so you have to be able to say, and I guess I always go back, and it was a podcast interview that I had done with someone that was in theater, and her name was Hilary Blair. And she talked about how, you know, in many other organizations, I would say industries, and her background was in theater feedback was a totally normal part of it. <Laugh> if you wanted to put on a great performance, you had to take it. And oftentimes it was public too, because, Hey, you didn’t get your line there. But she said people responded better to it because it was just a common part of being in theater. It wasn’t this scary thing. No, we needed it to put on a good performance, but yet here we go. And we have to recognize that we have to establish that commonplace, that prior to people mm-hmm, there’s not been appropriate, like yay conflict! No, we have this fear of conflict. And so it is re we need it. Now, there are ways that you can say it, don’t get me wrong.

Nikhil Paul:

That’s. Right. Yeah. And it’s, it’s like, it’s the way you say it. It’s, it’s balancing honesty with respect. Right. It’s, it’s, it’s balancing vulnerability with kindness, and that’s the key here. Though it’s not just you just having a fight for the sake of having a fight. You’re having, and you’re having those challenges so that you can get the best outta people. And so that’s the thing you’re right. There has to be balance. You can’t just come in guns blazing and just expect people to just accept it.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, I mean, there may, some people, people that do that but think about how many voices you miss in that conversation that might actually know, and they’re not doing it to be, I would say cynical or negative. They might just say like, Ooh, I have the awareness to this. And this could be a big challenge, but I don’t feel comfortable bringing it up.

Nikhil Paul:

That’s exactly right. So many people, you are exactly right. There are a lot of silent voices out there for sure.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Where do you go from the cultural standpoint? Where do you go from there? Yeah.

Set Up Your Team for Success with OMEs— One. Minimum. Easy.

Nikhil Paul:

So, once we have the purpose and we have a great sense of the kind of culture we’re establishing, the third part is execution. Right. And it’s about acting on the focus we talked about before, right? And so for me, this where a lot of teams sometimes drop the ball is they’re actually when the rubber hits the road, they’re not able to actually execute on what their plans are. And some of these teams have amazing strategic, very multi-level plans, but somehow they don’t really know how to actually do it when it comes down to it. And, and part of that me is again, using a focusing framework. So I call it this, this one framework, you know, people know about the OKRs- objectives and key results. It’s like a famous framework that comes out of Andy Grove of Intel.

And people use that in front of their strategic plans and all those things. I, I think there’s something a little bit deeper and a little bit more cohesive that’s needed. And I call it a “One Minimum Easy”. It’s just my way of trying to help my clients. Remember it, and it’s called one minimum easy. And so the one is basically the first question; it says what the one thing I can do that is will add the most value if I do this and make everything else easier slash unnecessary. And that first focusing question is very important because as leaders or entrepreneurs or people in charge of big businesses, we have so many priorities like you were saying, right? Like there are so many things to do when the day starts. And if you are not able to quickly silence the noise and focus on the signal, you’re going to be ineffective.

You’re gonna be doing a little bit of everything else. So part of what a team and a leader and a company need to do is be really good at quickly identifying every day, every week, every quarter, the one thing that will add the most value and focus on that one thing above everything else. Now, of course, we have multiple priorities. Of course, there are other things to do, but by orienting our focus on that one thing, and then we go into the second question, we then say, OK, now that we know what’s the one most important thing, the next thing is what is the minimum amount of work that we need to do to ensure its success? And so that’s the minimum part of it. And so for me, this is where another part that teams sometimes drop the ball is that you need to figure out what does success looks like for this one thing, right?

And so maybe if it’s like, you are trying to have a successful sales quarter, that’s the one thing that, what does success look like? Well, it’s actually having a million dollars in sales this year and having a hundred clients. OK, good. That’s the thing now, what is the minimum amount of work? Do I need to get those a hundred clients? To get that million dollars. Then you say, oh, I need to reach out to at least a thousand. And I’m making this up to a thousand people in my newsletter list. That’s the minimum. If I do that, I can guarantee I’ll get this much. Right. And what this does, Jenn, the reason I think this is important is that a lot of times when we’re working, we are not consistent. New things come up because sometimes we feel like, oh my God, I don’t know if this is working.

I don’t know if I have other things to do, but if you trust your own process, then good things come outta it. You know, that, look, I don’t know what’s gonna happen. There are a lot of things balls in the air, but if I just keep doing this every day until I get to this thousand people in my newsletter or whatever that goal is, then I know I’m guaranteed that outcome. Now, of course, you’re not always gonna guarantee an outcome, but it, allays your fears, you don’t feel, you’re not like, oh my God, am I ever gonna hit it? Am I doing too little? Am I doing too much? What is it? This is just a good way to help you create kind of this like weekly, daily, goal based on the minimum amount of work needed to establish success. And then the last part is easy.

One minimum easy, right? So what’s the easiest and the quickest way to do it. <Laugh> so that’s the last part. And sometimes people overcomplicate and make things very difficult and much more work that has to be. But you figured it out. What is the success you need to do with the minimum work you need to do? What of the most important thing you need to do? OK. Now, what’s the easiest way to do it. And so once you’re able to kinda internalize this process, you find you’re just much better at executing. You can attack and handle anything that the team has to deal with, or you as a leader have to deal. That’s, that’s my one tip on how to kind of work through your execution is do the one minimum easy.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s a really great tip on how to approach it. And I think it’s an accessible way to look at it because people do drop the ball with execution. I think there are so many, we all likely can think of our own organizations and experiences where there’s a big idea, and they made it the focus for 3, 1, 6 months, but they never measured it. They didn’t think about what they needed to do. They didn’t have check-in points to adapt. They didn’t definitely, weren’t thinking about what’s the minimum I could do. And what’s <laugh> but I think having those frameworks gives people permission to think it through. And maybe that’s the thing that the objective might feel too broad. So then it is probably harder to execute, but I love your framework because it does break it down into, you know, we can focus on this now. And then, you know, action quiets anxiety. That’s where you can build your traction. That’s right.

Nikhil Paul:

That’s right. And you can keep going slow, smaller, smaller. It’s like, you know, once you figure out like, OK, this, this year we’re focusing on sales. OK. Well, then what is success look like for the sales? OK. Well, then I have to hire somebody. Then what does that look like? Well, then I find people. You keep cascading it. And that’s how you are able to quiet your mind from, oh I have so many things to do! I have to do this. I have to do that. Just focus on the one thing and the ultimate action.

Set up Your Team for Success with Fun!

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Any other final feedback that you would want to share as it relates to how a leader can set up their team for success?

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah. You know, the one last thing I’ll say is you, you wanna also as a leader, not only are we trying to motivate them and inspire them with the big purpose, you also wanna create these fun challenges. I think a lot of times leaders just are like, OK, and we’re going to launch this product, or we’re going to have a successful quarter. Try to make it fun. <Laugh> I know this sounds a little bit like loosey, but like you wanna imbue the work that your team is doing as a challenge. Right? And I call it kind of like a Goldilocks performance challenge. It has to be a tough enough goal that it really requires everyone to work together and work a little hard, but at the same time, it shouldn’t be too hard, but it shouldn’t be too easy either.

Right? And so it has to be a right balance of hard and easy, and it has to be achievable and something very concrete. And also has to be urgent too. That’s the last part, I would say, make it a little bit of like, Hey, we have to get this done in the next weeks. And this is something we can do together as a team. And by creating, because it’s perspective as a leader, you’re creating the story for your team, for the work they’re doing. But by making it a fun challenge, you’re helping them feel excited to be together. They feel like they’re on a journey. And I think that’s the last part. A lot of leaders sometimes lose. You need to motivate your team by creating this narrative with the work they’re doing, imbue it with fun, with purpose and with a challenge and make it fun. And that’s the last part of getting them to work together as a high-performing team.

Jenn DeWall:

Make it fun. Yeah. You said it earlier. We, we spend a third of our lives at work. It’s a long time, and it can be fun. We can enjoy it. We can connect with our team. And I like talking about it from a challenging perspective because that’s where your team bonding is. What can we do together? That’s right. And add in fun incentives. It’s been a great conversation. Where do people get in touch with you? How can they connect with you?

Nikhil Paul:

Yeah, for sure. So obviously you can go to my website. WeRHuman.co – W E R H U M A N dot CO. And sign up for my newsletter. I, I write a lot about this kind of topic and leadership and teams, and I try to find fun stories from history and pop culture and share them and use the kind of window of teams and high-performance theories. But then I also post on LinkedIn a lot too. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on LinkedIn, Nikhil Paul. And yeah, I’d love to hear from you and hear some of the stories and insights that work for all of you as well.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, your passion, and to everyone listening— cheers to a great 22 or 2022! There you go. <Laugh> I might as well fumble my starting an ending. You know, why not? <Laugh> absolutely great conversation.

Nikhil Paul:

Thank you so much. Thanks, Jenn. Thank

Jenn DeWall:

You so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you enjoy the conversation with Nikhil, and you want to connect with him, head on over to WeRHuman.co and there, you can sign up for the newsletter. And Nikhil also wants you to reach out to him on LinkedIn, grow your network, connect with Nikhil and see or ask how he can assist in your leadership needs. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to share it with a friend, help a fellow leader, figure out how they can create the best team in 2022.

 

The post Set Up Your Team for Success in 2022 with Leadership Team Coach, Nikhil Paul appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Show Up as a Confident Leader with Award-Winning Author and Speaker, Bridgett McGowen

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Bridgett McGowen. Have you ever experienced someone’s energy that made you move to the edge of your seat, or you had to stand to your feet? What about the excitement that stayed with you and had you talking about it long after an event ended? That is the best way to describe Bridgett McGowen- an award-winning author, an award-winning publisher, an award-winning international professional speaker who is known to be both comical and memorable. She will not just energize you but inspire you not to let anyone or anything get in the way of you being the most unforgettable person in the room! Today, Bridgett is here to discuss what the most confident leaders do. Enjoy!

Meet Bridgett McGowen, Award-Winning Author, Publisher and Speaker

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And right now, I am sitting down with Bridgett McGowen. She is a professional speaker, and Bridgett and I are going to be talking about what the most confident leaders say and do. Bridgett, I love this topic because confidence is something I think we all need more of, and we’re gonna be talking about your book today. But before we, you know, I feel like I’m kind of jumping the gun here. Could you just go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience, talk about who you are, what you do, who you even speak to as a professional speaker!

Bridgett McGowen:

Right! Absolutely. First off, thanks a ton, Jenn, for even having me on the show. And then, probably more importantly, thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the viewers for even tuning in really excited to be here. So my name is Bridgett McGowen, and I help professionals be the most engaging, dynamic, incredible communicators ever. And sometimes people feel like because they don’t have a leadership title like they don’t have a C-suite title or VP title. Then they’re not a leader. Everybody is a leader, no matter where they are positioned in a company. So what I do as a professional speaker is help people find those voices. So they show up as the most confident, the most powerful, most unforgettable people in the room. I do that via workshops, via keynotes, via conferences, via podcast interviews, right? And via writing books and publishing them and getting them out to the world.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that, Bridgett. And I think you also, you know, know. I love that you opened with the reminder that we all need to hear that regardless of your title, you are a leader! And your presence is going to be important to how you communicate and whether or not your message has the intended impact. And today, we’re gonna be talking about what the most confident leaders say and do. Out of curiosity, how did you even become interested in helping people develop this skill set?

Bridgett McGowen:

Right. You know, my goodness, I’ve never had that question posed to me. How did I become interested? I need to find a reader’s digest version answer to this! Because I could go all the way back to being Sunday school secretary <laugh> when I was like 10, 12 years old in this really small town called Livingston, Texas, actually it was on the outskirts of Livingston. It’s a really small community called Swartwout. And Swartwout was actually going to be the county seat of Polk County. But I am digressing, Livingston became the county seat, but maybe that’s where it started. I don’t know because as, as that Sunday school secretary, I had to stand up in front of not a large crowd, but enough of a crowd and deliver my little report every morning or every Sunday morning. And then, you know, you go off to school, and you have to do speeches and whatever we’re called upon to do, and you go off to college and so on and so forth.

And I guess throughout life. I’ve observed people. I’ve observed myself, and I’ve stepped back, and I’ve said, what made people effective? What made people sit up and take notice? What made people want to lean in and listen to my little report every Sunday morning. What made people or my classmates want to lean in and see what I had to say when I gave my speech, or what have you in whatever class? What made people want to lean in and pay attention to me when I went out into corporate America or when I started my own business? So I think it was just observing and paying attention to what was the most engaging dynamic, incredible people do—and then making sure that I pass it on to others. Because life is too short to be mediocre, maybe that’s it. Jenn, just, just having myself in different scenarios and thinking, how do I make sure that I consistently show up and shine, then how do I take what I’m learning and pass it on to others. So they’re consistently showing up, showing out and showing the world what rock stars they are.

Jenn DeWall:

Heck Yes! I love, I mean, I hope that our listeners can heal your enthusiasm right now. And I love the curiosity that you just had from a young age to think about what makes a message stick. What makes things effective of what makes people want to do something as a result of a message we’re gonna be talking today about, you know, a little bit about your book. Can you tell us about your newest book, the re-release that you’re working on right now? Because I love the title. I think it’s so inspiring and motivating, and I think it’s perfect for starting the new year.

Show Up and Show Out as a Confident Leader

Bridgett McGowen:

Yes. Yes. I fell in love with the idea of the book on a plane trip back in like 2020. Wow. Wow. That was probably one of my last plane trips before the pandemic. But again, I digress. I go off on tangents, everybody. I used to teach, and I had to always make sure I had an agenda either on the chalkboard. Yes. I’m telling my age, or as time progressed in my PowerPoint or in my notes, I always have to have an agenda. So I remember I was on this plane trip going out to Kansas. It was mid-January, and it just came to me in detail. How do you show up and show out? And I said you know what? I probably need to define exactly what that is too, but I’m on this plane ride. And I said, you know, can I come up with maybe three ideas, you know, one per month or maybe, you know, I dunno, maybe let’s do 52 ideas for the year, one per week.

And so, with Show Up and Show Out, the subtitle is 52 Communication Habits to Make you Even More Unforgettable, with this being the second edition. So with that, each week, you get a strategy, a habit, a tip, a practice. Something that I personally use is where you get that habit, you read it on Monday, and then you commit to engaging in using that tool, using that strategy, incorporating it into everything you do that week. And then come Friday, you stop, and you assess just how good of a job you did with incorporating that new habit into your everyday interactions, be it on the job or at home. And I, you know, I shouldn’t say new habit because there’s nothing new under the sun, right? But it is given from my personal perspective of again, being from this small-town population of 5,019, and going out into this big world and just trying to find my way.

And I provide those intangibles that we weren’t necessarily taught in high school or in college or in B-school. We, there was no curriculum. There was no class. And I think about what I just had to figure out on my own by bumbling, stumbling, falling, and then getting back up, right? So the book really focuses on helping you understand how to show up. Where you’re not only physically present, but you’re also mentally and emotionally present. Everything about you demonstrates for everybody watching that, you know, you are somebody and everybody had better recognize you are indeed somebody. And then to “show out” means, as you are mentally, physically and emotionally present, you are performing. You are behaving and interacting with others in a way that is extraordinary. It is uncharacteristically impressive. You are quote-unquote “on” at all the right times, which makes you unforgettable. You can’t get mad at somebody who doesn’t remember you if you didn’t do anything memorable! You know how to blend in. I love that. You know how to blend in when it’s time to blend in, and you know how to uplift others while you are simultaneously standing out for yourself.

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, I love that. Because there’s a little bit of that adaptive leadership quality within that, knowing when it’s appropriate the right opportunity to show up or whether you want to sit back and observe, but show like, I think the title of your book is so commanding, right? Show Up and Show Out! It’s all on essentially your leadership presence. Like I think that this book is fantastic, and I dive a little bit more into it. So your book has four sections. Tell us about those four sections.

Four Ways to Show Up as a Confident Leader

Bridgett McGowen:

Sure. So with the, so the four sections are how you look, how you sound, what you say and how you say it. And I strongly believe those are the four pillars of how everybody, how they show up in the world and that you have to pay close attention to each of those four areas. If you really are going to totally shine and just totally be again unforgettable. So the first section deals with how you look. This one focuses on improving your image and your nonverbal communication because sometimes, you may never get a chance to open your mouth and say anything. You may just be in the room, but if you know how to enter a room, you know how to move about, you know, how to have the right poise and the right stance and what to wear and so on and so forth. Then you want to focus on the how you look section of the book—the next section, how you sound.

1.     How You Look

Jenn DeWall:

Can I ask the question about “how you look,” because I, I know that this is so important, right? Perception is reality. How you enter a room, whether it’s fair or not, people will make assumptions. And I know I want to ask more about this because sometimes I think- I know we teach a leadership presence class at Crestcom, and one of the things that I received kind of like a curiosity point or maybe a frustration point, and I know that this is out there with leaders. Some people hate the fact that you have to pay attention to how you look. And it’s not necessarily a vanity game. I don’t want to say that, but it understands that depending on, you know, the culture that you’re in, the industry that you are in, there may be norms and expectations of what professional looks like. And it’s not to say that everyone needs to look the same, but we do need to pay attention to appearance. And so I guess my question to you is what would you say to the people that are maybe like, well, asking me to think about how I look is just a vain thing, and that shouldn’t count down anyways, you know? Because I’m sure, you hear that too. People are a little resistant to wanting to talk about that. How do you navigate those conversations with people?

Bridgett McGowen:

Right. It’s tough. I get it! Before we started recording, you and I were talking about how we revel in the opportunity to have on the sweats, no makeup, no lip gloss, no nothing. Right? We love that. And especially during the pandemic, when so many of us were working from home, we were working virtually, and you know, we’re in the sweats and conducting meetings from, you know, coffee shops and so on and so forth, behind the will of our cars while we’re sitting in parking, lots, making transitions and so on and so forth. And so I get it, and I hear you, but let me tell you something. Within a short amount of time, different sources will say seven seconds, 10 seconds, 12 seconds or what have you. In a short amount of time, people form an opinion of you fairly or unfairly justly or unjustly, accurately or inaccurately. You want to control as much as possible. The perception that people are forming of you.

Now I’ll be the first one to say you can have someone who is suited and booted. I’m talking about— they have on the nicest outfit, the flyest shoes, the most expensive leather attaché case. And really seems to have it going on. But they have nothing in their brain. OK? The résumé says nothing. It screams, I do not know anything. Right? I get it. You have some of those people where they are dressed to the nines, and they look like they have their act together, but guess what? That is the perception that we have of that person. That person has controlled the perception that people have of him or her. And it’s not until he or she opens the mouth that maybe we are forming a different perception. It’s tough. OK? It’s tough. It’s a. It’s frustrating where you feel like you have to quote-unquote dress up for whatever the case may be. But if it’s important to you, the impression you are giving of yourself, your personal brand, the company you’re representing, if it’s important that people have the most positive perception of you and your business, then it’s incumbent upon you to do as best as you can to control the look that or the message that your look sends to others.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I thank you so much for answering that. And yeah, absolutely. I know that there are pieces that I dislike, but to look for the opportunities where you maybe don’t have to play it up, right when you and I did our pre-call, I was in a sweatshirt just enjoying the day, right? The days that we don’t have to, you know, get all polished, but we know that if we’re gonna go in front of people, then we have to take a different approach. And I wonder, like, you know if just people would depersonalize that and understand that it’s not necessarily about you, it’s kind of just that perception in is reality. And that your brain is doing all this stuff very quickly to form these opinions, judgments whether fairly or unfairly. I love that you said that. And just, you know, it’s not necessarily a personal attack against you. It’s just kind of understanding these norms that have been laid down of what that looks like. And I’m, I just really appreciate you answering that. Because I know, sometimes people struggle with that one.

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2.     How You Sound

Jenn DeWall:

OK, let’s talk about how you sound. Oh my gosh, I love this. And I feel like if you can help everyone and how they sound, Zoom meetings will be that much more entertaining, meetings will be more engaging! What does how you sound mean?

Bridgett McGowen:

Right? And this is a tough one because I do understand that sometimes people do have these Hmm, slightly different sounds to their voices. I am very respectful of that, being from Texas myself, and as the years pass, I get lazier and lazier with controlling the accent that I have. I used to work very hard to sound like I was from the Midwest, but you know, once you get old like I am and tired. So I respect that sometimes this can be a tough one. But with paying attention to how you sound, it’s really because more aware of the quality of your voice regarding your pitch, your tone, your speed, and some other factors to put in place and some other habits to put in place those, those practices that are going to have you sounding as confident as possible. So it can be something as small as working on reducing the number of filler words that you use.

So here, we’re not necessarily talking about pitch or talking about tone, but just the quality of the delivery of your message. If everything you say, or every sentence you say is littered with, “um, well, so, like, you know, well, kind of,” that if you’re using them every three words, it diminishes the quality of your message and it makes you sound less confident. So that’s one strategy that I have in the book. And I will tell you exactly how to reduce your use of filler words. Notice, I didn’t say eliminate your use of filler words, but reduce your use of filler words because using some filler words makes you sound human, right? But if you never use right, if you never use filler words, you almost sound robotic. You almost sound like you’re not even a human, and it comes off as being almost too perfect. And nobody wants to be around someone who’s quote-unquote, too. Perfect. Something else that I encourage everyone to do is to find their ideal speaking voice. This one is really,

Jenn DeWall:

What’s an ideal speaking voice? I love that!

Bridgett McGowen:

Your ideal speaking voice is the one that has people hearing the authority in your voice—hearing you speak with confidence that makes them sit up and take notice. It doesn’t sound unsure. It doesn’t sound too hyper. It doesn’t sound bored. Your ideal speaking voice is just the right intonation where it has you just sounding like a leader. And this is how you find your ideal speaking voice—you hum the happy birthday song!

Jenn DeWall:

<humming the tune to happy birthday> Mm-Hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm …so then you grab that one.

Bridgett McGowen:

That tone— the tone that you hear when you’re humming happy birthday—is your ideal speaking voice.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh, so interesting. And I like that it’s a way to – I don’t know. Because I feel like you, it sounds almost higher, right? It sounds higher than that natural voice. So it adds energy to it, which then I imagine adds like, you know, that engagement principle. I have to know this because now I know that I worked really hard, and I think the way that I really worked on eliminating filler words was just through practice and continuously getting feedback on my speaking. And obviously, I get feedback all the time whether I want it or not <laugh>, but I’ll take that feedback. And so I get a lot of practice. And so then that does help to eliminate those filler words. But what would be advice for someone that maybe is really afraid of public speaking still doesn’t know? Where do you even begin to start to eliminate those filler words?

Bridgett McGowen:

Absolutely. The first thing you need to do is even identify what your filler words are that you use and make a note of those. But here is absolutely my favorite strategy. And it’s to pause and say nothing. When you feel yourself about to say or like, or, you know, pause, don’t even let it come out and then move on with the next thought. It doesn’t even catch anyone’s attention. See just now. Did you notice how I said it doesn’t even <pause> catch anyone’s attention? I was getting ready to say before I said catch that the reason filler words happen is that you’re trying to think of your next thought. So you pause and say nothing. So you can think of what is that next word I want to say? And it comes off as a contemplative pause. So it’s not even range or noticeable. So whenever you catch me during this interview, during this conversation taking one of those pauses and you’ve noticed it probably pretty regularly right now, it’s because I’m stopping myself from using a filler word. And instead of using that time and that energy to pull up, whatever is the word that I want to say next. Pause and say nothing and try to figure out what is that word that I’m searching for as opposed to “um.” “Um” doesn’t get you any closer to the word that you want. <Laugh>

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that—the pause. Embrace the power of the pause if you’re looking to eliminate your filler words. I think I have different filler words now, as I’ve tried to weed out the ums and likes. I think I have new replacement ones that I don’t even realize, but embracing the power of the pause! Because you’re right. It’s not awkward. If anything, I’m still engaged in the conversation, and I’m not noticing any type of big break, and it just allows the conversation to feel a lot smoother. And that’s such a great pro tip!

Bridgett McGowen:

<Laugh> and, and, and when you slow down, and you insert those pauses here and there, slower speech, you don’t wanna be too slow, sounded like dry eyes, clear eyes, right? But slower speech is also synonymous with confidence. It’s also synonymous with how a leader looks and sounds because a leader doesn’t talk like this all the time, and it just kind of keeps running worse together. No. So slow things down, and inserting pauses makes you sound more deliberate and more sure about your message. Oh

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh. And you’re right, and people can actually have time to process what you’re saying. <Laugh>

Bridgett McGowen:

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Because although you have all of the thoughts together in your head, it may not sound like rocket science to you. However, your listener is hearing it for the first time, from your perspective. So you’re spot on, Jenn. It gives everybody a chance to hear and process what you’re saying.

3.     What You Say

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. OK. So we covered are the first two sections, which are understanding how you look and then understanding how you sound. The third one is what you say. I love this, please. I think you’re gonna help a lot of employees by making sure and giving pro tips on this one. What does it mean in terms of showing up and showing out and how it, I guess, the impact that you have to, what you say?

Bridgett McGowen:

It’s about being more cognizant of the impact of your words on others, as well as the impact of your words on your image. So you are always showing up in a positive way. One of my favorite habits in the book in this section is THIINK before you speak, but think is spelled with two i’s. I use it as an acronym. So before you speak, ask yourself if what you are about to say is thoughtful, helpful, important, inclusive, necessary, kind, thoughtful, helpful, important, inclusive, necessary and kind. Now prior to 2020, I didn’t have that second eye. I didn’t have inclusive. Now, did it just strike me in 2020 that language needed to be more inclusive? No. Especially as a black woman that didn’t just come to light for me when we started to see the racial unrest, if you will, in the United States.

So with this re-release of the book, I thought it would be, I would be remiss if I didn’t include inclusive in there now, am I saying that every single time you speak, you need to make sure it’s politically correct and then no, one’s going to be offended. And because it’s like walking on an eggshell. No, I’m not saying that because that is hard work. I’m saying just turn up the dial, just heighten your awareness of what you say. Sometimes, even something that’s innocent is addressing a group like you guys. Who has not done that? However, women may be offended by being addressed as you guys. It’s innocent enough, but because guys have a masculine connotation to it, some women may feel- it may be off-putting to them because it’s like, well, I’m, I’m not a guy, but OK. So then do you address everybody as, Hey gals? Right? So <laugh>, I’m not saying what you should say or shouldn’t say, but I am saying be more aware of your language and ensure that it’s thoughtful, that it’s helpful, that it’s important, inclusive, necessary and kind. And I talk, of course, more about each of those in that section.

Jenn DeWall:

And I think that is important. And I know it’s tough right now. There, there’s a level where I think it’s interesting, even when you watch maybe TV programs from 10 years ago on things that there’s no way that would air today. There’s no way. And I get that. It can feel like a little bit of a battle in some regards to make sure that you’re not alienating or hurting anyone, but it is just thinking about the filter. What would your audience feel? How could they feel? And inclusive language, I think this is still new, you know, I don’t necessarily know if they ever really taught, like, I, I don’t think about in the last 10 years, if they were like, let’s talk about how you can use inclusive language. And so, give yourself permission to know that this might be newer for you. And it’s OK that you might just be learning different ways to address a group. How to communicate with someone, because why does inclusive language matter? If you’re trying to show up and show out? Like, why does inclusive language matter? <Laugh>

Bridgett McGowen:

You have to think about it before I say something and, and, and I know listeners are gonna say, Bridgett, that is absolutely impossible to run through the list of everybody in the world. Before I say something to determine if what I’m about to voice is going to be offensive to them, that’s where I’m kind of going with it. You have to ask yourself if what I’m about to be about to say would it be offensive or uncomfortable, or just taken the wrong way by someone who doesn’t look like me? And I’m not just talking about physical characteristics. I’m talking about someone who doesn’t have the same level of the education level of socioeconomic status. Someone who doesn’t live in the same neighborhood you live in, work in the same industry you work in, who doesn’t, you know, any, anything, any physical characteristics, anything. So it’s not so much about physical characteristics as it is just everything.

I, when you, when you stop and ask with someone who just does not quote, unquote, look like me is not in the same circumstance does not have the same set of circumstances does not have the same experiences doesn’t come from the same background. Would this bother him or her? And it’s important as a leader because it shows you care. It shows compassion. You see leadership. It isn’t just about being able to have fantastic ideas and move a team forward and be on leaderboards and have sales skyrocketing through the roof and wonderful customer bases and all of those things that we love as business owners. We could go on down the line, right? In spreadsheets and dollars and cents. It’s not that leadership. It isn’t just about that. And being able to lead teams to victory, but it’s being able to understand, there are some things underneath the surface, underneath the spreadsheets, underneath the data points, underneath the marketing tools, there are other pieces that are important to connect to humans.

See when you can connect to humans on personal levels when you can respect our differences and be cool with them. I’m OK that you are. You are not exactly like me. I’m OK with it. As a matter of fact, I love it. When you are able to demonstrate that you’re cool, comfortable, collected. You know, cool as a pickle in December, then you show that you care, and you show that you respect people for who they are and for what they bring to the table. And you know that your company, it couldn’t be what it is without each one of these incredibly talented members of your team, your company, couldn’t be where it is unless they were there. And when you show that you care and that you recognize what everybody brings to the table and not only what they bring to the table, but that you always want them to feel respected and honored on some level. When you show that, you have people showing up in the most impressive ways for your team.

4.     How You Say It

Jenn DeWall:

Right? And it’s so important, that piece is so important. Just being able to communicate in a way that makes people feel seen. And I think if we haven’t maybe hit the nail on the, or directly on the head with this, this is emotional intelligence. This is your ability to observe what’s going on. Be mindful of the environment of the relationships Of how you’re showing up. This is emotional intelligence. You’ve got to slow down to speed up. So let’s go into your fourth piece. It’s not about what now? It’s not about what you say. It’s about how you say it.

Bridgett McGowen:

Mom taught us that, right. Mom taught us. It’s not what you say. It’s how you bad, but we’re taking it another level where in this section of the book, I have you examining and improving the entire packaging of your message, where you are thinking about how is this going to impact me, my company, others, everybody, and understanding that, how do I put it? It’s, you know, the loudest one in the room. It isn’t the fiercest one in the room. And it is knowing that you can command attention and be commanding without even saying a word. And it’s understanding that when you show up and show out, you, you, you can be comfortable with silence.

When you show up and show out, you treat every day like it’s the most critical day of your company’s life or your team’s life. It’s game day. When, when you show up and show out, you fully understand how to be the very best version of yourself. You know that you don’t have to be on 24/7, but that you are on when it matters. And that you can totally turn it off. Whenever you are alone, you’re quiet. You have a moment, but you know that when it matters, when all eyes are on you, that it’s time to be on. You know that it’s important that you. Wow, just think about everything. Every move that you make, every word that you say you and, oh my goodness, I could, I could just go on and on. When you show up and show out, your words are matching your actions.

Your actions are matching your words. You’re one of those people where you keep pressing the accelerator when everybody else is putting on the brakes, and you don’t feel the need to be anyone but yourself; you’re not intimidated by anybody or anything. When you show up, and you show out, you always find value in others and appreciation for others. You don’t have to be the one where the spotlight is always shining on you. When you show up, and you show out while everybody else is hitting the emergency button, the panic button, you, you moved on. You’re looking for a solution to address the emergency. See, it’s just about thinking about every move you make. And every word you say, think about what message does it send. You, you move in silence, and you, wow. The crowd, you don’t worry about what went wrong. You don’t worry about the competition. You, you look at it, and you pay attention to what’s going on. You look at the competition and make some adjustments about what you’ll do differently, but you don’t stress too much about it. You learn from the past, you learn from others, you focus on what you want to achieve and keep moving forward. You know, oh, I love that section of the book because I just really talk about just, just the entire packaging of how you show up.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. It sounds like it’s a mindset. If we’re talking about, you know, what confident leaders do and say, and how you can show up confidently, you have to have the mindset that you are worthy, valuable and have something meaningful to say. And I think that’s important because it goes with it. It just puts intentionality within your communication that all of the communication can be that much more impactful if you set some intention with it. Have a mindset going into the meeting or before you send the email because that’s how you say it. People can tell if you are-

Bridgett McGowen:

BS-ing is what we’re going to call it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. People can absolutely tell they may not call you on it. Actually, that is just a funny thing, because I think most people, you know, I, this is a quote that a participant shared with me once, and I really like it- empty wagons rattle. And just essentially that people don’t have, you know, you can tell when someone doesn’t have something going on. And I love that. And you know, I think to those that think that, oh, I don’t really need to think of it, or I can just wing it. People can tell, people can tell, and they may not say anything to you, but they can tell, like, I’m curious what you think to the people that are like, oh, I don’t need to do this. It’s fine. It’s fine. I don’t need to slow down. I’m sure my communication is fine. And they think they might be pulling one over. What’s the, I guess, what is the cautionary tale of doing that?

Bridgett McGowen:

Right. Well, I’ll tell you this. If you like where you are, you don’t wanna move. You’re perfectly fine with the status quo. You’re not concerned with self-improvement, professional development, upward mobility, then completely ignore everything I’ve said! You know, the goal should be each day to wake up and use the 24 hours in front of you to put yourself and others in better positions than they were before the day started. You’ve got to look back over the week, over the month, over the year and say, am I better? Have I made others better in this past 24 hours, in this past week, in this past month, in this past year, be selfish and work on you, but at the same time, spread it to others. So the cautionary tale is- if you are fine with where you are, pay me no mind. You keep doing what you do.

But if you really want to show up as the most incredible person that you already know that you are, you just need to put it on display a little bit better. You just need to turn it up a couple of notches. And if you want to get in a position where you feel comfortable uplifting others. And I encourage you- and you just want, you just want more. You want more for yourself. You want more for your company, more for your team, more for your family. Then, showing up and showing out and really establishing yourself as somebody who cares, who’s confident, who’s a commanding leader. It only can bode well for you professionally and personally,

Connect with Bridgett to Become a More Confident Leader

Jenn DeWall:

I got it starts with that choice. Bridgett, how can our listeners get in touch with you? We have been talking about Bridgett’s book, Show Up and Show Out: 52 Communication Habits to Make You Even More Unforgettable. How can they connect with you after the podcast?

Bridgett McGowen:

Sure. Please visit connectwithb.com. That’s connectwithb.com, and I have some special offers for you there. As a matter of fact, you can get the book to show up and show out. You can get that and enter the coupon code: PODCAST at checkout. So you can get free shipping on the book. So connectwithb.com and enter the coupon code: PODCAST at checkout. When you check out to get free shipping on the book, and if you would love for me to do a session with your team on confidence, what the most confident leaders do and say, how do you show up? How do you command a room? How do you make engaging presentations? I’d love to have a presentation, a shop, a webinar, a breakout with your team. And all you have to do is mention this show, and you’ll get 10% off the cost of that session. So connectwithb.com. Both of those options are there! Book a workshop, get 10% off, buy your book, get free shipping using PODCAST as the coupon code when you check out!

Jenn DeWall:

Holy cow! Those are a ton of offers. And thank you so much for offering them to our audience. Bridgett, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you for giving the techniques and talking about your book. Show up and show out what a great way to start the year. Let’s see what 20 can be if we all show up and show out. Thank you so much for joining us, Bridgett.

Bridgett McGowen:

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jenn. Thank you, Crestcom. Thank you to the listeners. Don’t forget to visit connectwithb.com. I can’t wait to see you there.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was so great to sit down with Bridgett and talk all about what confident leaders say and do. If you want to connect or book Bridgett to come into your organization, you can mention this podcast after going to connectwithb.com to get 10% off! Or you can go to connectwithb.com to purchase your autographed copy of Show Up and Show Out and get free shipping by using the promo code: PODCAST. If you notice someone that could benefit from this episode, please share. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. If you’re looking to improve your communication style, or you want to up-level yourself as a leader, head on over to Crestcom.com and request a complimentary two-hour leadership skills workshop for you and your team.

 

 

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Prioritizing Mental Health at Work Full Transcript Below:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we are talking about how you can prioritize mental health at work for yourself and others in this coming new year. There is no better time than now where people are very much needing support in managing to overcome mental health challenges. And it means that no longer are you, as a leader, able to not address this, as people are likely bringing this into their workplace, and you may also be experiencing symptoms or health challenges yourself. But here’s the thing that I want you to know. You are not alone. According to the World Health Organization, mental health conditions and substance abuse have increased 13%. Over the last few years, we know that the pandemic has taken a huge toll on mental health. And in 2019, almost 60% of full-time U.S. Workers reported experiencing at least one symptom of mental health, at least one. And that’s up from 75% in the last year. So mental health challenges are continuing to grow.

What’s interesting is that mental health symptoms are equally prevalent across all seniority levels. So it doesn’t matter what your role is in your organization. You may be experiencing mental health challenges. It’s not something that’s just reserved for people that we perceive as having the more high-stress job. It can truly impact everyone. And here’s why you need to care. In 2020, mental health support went from a “nice to have” to a true business imperative, meaning it’s something that you want to offer and create space for it for yourself and your employees.

Why is Mental Health at Work Important?

So why do we need to care and talk about mental health at work? Why do we need to? Well, not only did we just talk about the increases over the past few years in the need or people experiencing mental health issues but why do we need to care about it? Because mental health impacts everyone! Every single person in your workplace. And here’s a tip that I want you to think about. I want you to think about this, to practice your own empathy and compassion, a picture that every single person that you come into contact with is, you know, inside and outside at work is carrying what we would look at as an invisible suitcase. It’s something that you can’t see, and that invisible suitcase is going to impact how we show up, how we respond, how we make decisions, solve problems. And it’s something that if we don’t ask our employees or even ask ourselves, we not be aware of the impact of an invisible suitcase. So the content- think about this each and every one of us- when you’re going to meet someone for the first time, you can picture that they have their own invisible suitcase of stuff that you cannot see.

You may not be able to see their values, any underlying health conditions, a disability, the trauma and pain that they’ve experienced, or any other type of past experience. Maybe it could be past experiences with prior employers. The invisible suitcase also contains experiences from our upbringing, from the culture and which we were raised. Our worries about the future, our worries about the present, our hopes, dreams, and fears. And this invisible suitcase, if you don’t pay attention to it, you may miss indicators or points of connection to be able to support someone with mental health challenges.

What Impacts Mental Health at Work?

But let’s talk about the things that exist today within the workplace that people are experiencing. What can impact mental health? Well, first, we know burnout and stress, and as much as I wish that burnout and stress may have been resolved with people taking some time off over the holidays, it seems to be creeping back up in 2022. So we want to be mindful of burnout and stress for our teams and employees that may be asked to do more with less. Or other things that can impact mental health are our feeling of psychological safety. Do I feel safe at work? There are global events, the social climate, our health and lifestyle, grief and death, racism, bullying, discrimination, our families and friends, conflict, our economic circumstances, and even the economy. There are so many things that impact our mental health that it’s hard to argue that people do not or cannot have mental health challenges.

Mental health can impact every single person, but let’s talk specifically about work. The work-related risk factors that can contribute to mental health challenges are inadequate health and safety policies. Maybe you’re not doing things that are in the best interest of that employee’s health, or maybe it’s poor communication and management practices. Maybe there’s a lot of change or ambiguity, and people feel that there’s too much uncertainty. So it’s creating stress or limited participation and decision making people feel like they don’t have a choice or a say in what their work looks like. Remember, people want that autonomy. They want to feel valued. They want to have that ownership, but when they don’t have that participation or the opportunity to contribute, it can trigger mental health consequences. In addition, other work-related risk factors can be, maybe you have inflexible working hours. You can’t accommodate someone’s personal needs. Maybe they have to take an appointment or something like that. So we want to be mindful about creating flexibility and, of course, a low level of support. When we are in a place where we feel like we’re going into the office or a workplace, and we don’t have a leader or a support system there, it can make us feel isolated and alone.

Is Mental Health a Concern at Your Workplace?

And so the question that I want you to ask yourself is, is mental health a problem at your workplace? Here’s how you might be able to identify it because it impacts our relationships. If I’m not feeling the greatest if I am feeling more anxious or depressed, or the variety of different mental health symptoms, I may not be showing up at my best. I may not be listening to people. So it’s going to be impacting the relationships that I have with my team. Of course, it’s going to impact my stress and physical health, my ability to make decisions, how I resolve conflict when I’m not feeling like my best self, I’m not showing up into a conflict conversation with curiosity. I may be showing up to it within indifference. And so, we want to be mindful of that. And mental health will also impact your workplace turnover and engagement, people’s ability to be creative, and their overall resilience.

And here’s a news flash for you. If we’re talking about managing our mental health in 2022, one of the myths that I want you to let go of is that resilience is all about toughing it out. As a matter of fact, it’s the opposite. Resilience is not toughing it out. It’s asking for help. It’s taking care of yourself. It’s not just pretending it’s not an issue and swallowing it down. Mental health— to truly manage it means addressing it.

Myths About Mental Health at Work

We have to have a certain level of self-awareness, but let’s talk about the other mental health myths that exist. Oh, maybe there’s the myth in your workplace that mental health conditions are uncommon. If you were listening to the earlier part of this, it is extremely common! Or maybe you were raised with that perspective of what I would call traditional leadership that mental health should be dealt with outside of the workplace. It has nothing to do with work. Well, let’s be honest. Think about how many times you maybe have disrupted sleep because you were worried about something that happened at work. Mental health is something that happens in the workplace and outside of the workplace, and it has to be addressed.

Some other mental health myths, mental health defines you in your career. No, it doesn’t. And if it does, maybe that’s an indication that you’re in the wrong environment. Mental health does not define you. Because you may have mental health challenges, it does not mean you are less-than. It does not mean that you are not as valuable. You are an individual that is in need of help, and give yourself some grace. Another mental health myth is that mental health conditions are permanent. These are things that we can work through. Granted, you have to take that opportunity to ask for help.

And the last few mental health myths are that mental health problems are a sign of weakness. No! Mental health, your challenges, how you overcome them, demonstrate your strength. Do not ever let anyone tell you that your mental health, or challenges with it, make you less-than as a human being. And also, the last myth about mental health that I think is important to talk about is that only other people need therapists or someone to talk to. From my perspective, as a coach, every single individual needs either a coach or a therapist, someone that can help them get outside of their head. So we don’t bottle up our problems, our pains, our worries, and then allow them to further impact us. We need to talk about it. You deserve to talk about it. And here’s my PSA to maybe people that have felt like they didn’t have a voice.

And I’ll talk about one stereotype, which is that men shouldn’t have emotions. If you are listening to this, you have emotions. I don’t care what your gender is. I don’t care what your background is. You deserve to be able to talk about them.

A Leader’s Role in Managing Mental Health at Work

Now let’s quickly talk about what your role is as a leader in managing mental health at work. The tip is that you want to see the whole person just as we talked about with that invisible suitcase, everyone has it. There are many things that you’re not seeing. You only see the things that are at the surface level. Things like their success or what they post on social media, the title, their background, their physical appearance, how they might be showing up. But what you might be missing is their hard work failure, discipline, disappointment that they’ve had, or rejections, maybe they’ve applied for a job within your workplace, and they didn’t get it. And it’s going to impact their ability to feel valued. Or what you don’t see is their perseverance, how they have to overcome certain challenges or problems in their lives to be able to show up and be the best that they can be. You also don’t see that that person’s self-doubt, that language, how they’re communicating to themselves, either supporting or not. You also don’t see courage, dreams and goals—life outside of work. Your role as a leader is to dig beneath the surface, to make sure that you understand that person as an individual, not just those things that are very easy to see, such as what they post on social media or how they might appear at work.

Be Mindful of Triggers

And your job as a leader is also to be mindful of the triggers that can take place with mental health for different people. It could be holidays. It could be that toxic work environment or feeling included in the scene, which comes down to psychological safety. What you also may not realize is that blame- blaming someone- “oh, you did this” can also trigger mental health judgment, chronic busyness, organizational changes. These can all trigger mental health impacts, but before you focus on anyone else, I want you to focus on that whole person, but you have to start with focusing on yourself.

Ask for Help

So how do you support your own mental health? First and foremost, you have to talk about it. Don’t pretend that by bearing it down, it’s going to somehow resolve itself. No, it’s going to fester beneath the surface, and it’s going to impact how you show up! Another way that you can support your own mental health is by finding a coach or a therapist. It, someone that is there, that is their role is just to listen to you and to help you in that circumstance.

Practice Healthy Habits

Also, pay attention to your lifestyle. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you maybe relying on substances too much? How are you eating? We want to be mindful of our lifestyle because it will feed how we show up. And the last few are to practice boundaries, making sure that you’re not just saying yes to everything! Make sure that you’re protecting yourself and your time. That you’re giving yourself permission to do the things outside of work that fuels you, that make you happy. Maybe it’s spending with your children. Maybe it’s pursuing a hobby, but you need to set boundaries to protect your time and yourself. And the last piece, most importantly, how to support your own mental health, is to practice self-love. You have got to love yourself.

Bring Love to Work

Now again, I know that we don’t talk about love so much at work, but self-love. When we love ourselves and value ourselves, it can make a huge impact on how we show up with our team. We may be a lot kinder. We may have more empathy and compassion. We might be able to see that other person in a different way. And also, we have more confidence that even in the face of adversity, we can persevere. So other tips on how to prioritize your health- let go of perfection and redefine what success looks like for you. You may have had a past definition of success that said in order to be successful, and you have to do everything perfectly. Well, now might be the time to rewrite that definition of success. If everything needs to be perfect, that triggers to me that I have to work nonstop and that I’m never good enough, which is only going to trigger impacts on my mental health. But if I redefine success, as my definition is that every single day, I am learning and growing. That gives me permission to make mistakes. That gives me permission to ask for help. So make sure that you’re redefining success.

Also, embrace who you are when you embrace who you are, and you practice self-love. You see your values, strengths, blind spots, limitations. You can extend that same grace for others. You can see the value that they bring, and you can also help them overcome their own challenges and blind spots. Another way to prioritize your mental health is to stop comparing. Many of you may know the expression “comparison is the thief of joy.” When we compare ourselves to other people, then we’re telling ourselves in some way, we’re getting life wrong. Our life is awful, and that’s only going to perpetuate challenges to our mental health.

Accept Limitations

And another tip about how to prioritize your mental health at work is to accept that not all work will get done. There is likely not enough time of day to be able to account for maybe those “got a minutes” or the last-minute fire drills. So accept that. Not all your work will get done in one day. And don’t put that pressure on yourself to have everything buttoned up. It’s just simply not a reality in the modern-day workplace. Do your best, which brings me to the final point on how to prioritize your mental health. Give yourself some grace. You are perfectly imperfect. You are a human being. You deserve to give yourself kindness. You deserve to give yourself permission to make mistakes and learn from them. Give yourself some grace. And another tip, which we should all be doing, is to take that social media break. When we go to social media, it can trigger feelings of inadequacy, not enough-ness. Oh my goodness. I’m failing at life. And also, if you’re a parent and you’re constantly on social media, it demonstrates to our children who already have challenges with using their phones, that they too need to stay on social media. So be the example, demonstrate to your family, to your colleagues, that we don’t need to be connected to our phones at all times.

Tips for Supporting Mental Health at Work

Now, in conclusion, I want to share just a few tips on how to support mental health at work. Number one is to make mental health a priority. Mental health is a person’s condition with regard to their psychological and emotional wellbeing. You want to acknowledge it and know what it is and understand that mental health looks different for everyone. The facets of mental health affecting people could be anxiety and depression, grief, change, stress, racism, bullying, discrimination, culture, workload, values, conflict. These are all facets of mental health, so it’s going to look different for every single individual.

We all have different triggers, but if you’re trying to observe whether or not someone on your team might be impacted or going through a mental health challenge, potential signs could be: a loss of interest in engaging in activities previously enjoyed; social withdrawal or not connecting or initiating conversation in the way that we once were; difficulty concentrating; changes in sleeping and eating; extremely high and low moods; and of course, overwhelm and worry. These are signs that we can notice in others, and we can also pay attention and reflect and think, do I have any of these signs?

Walk the Walk

So tips to make mental health a priority at work. Walk the walk- make sure you’re talking about it and that you’re prioritizing your own mental health. That way, you can remove the stigma around mental health and make sure that you get outside, encourage walking meetings and also, shorten your meetings! Give people an opportunity, especially if they’re still in a remote environment, to take care of things throughout the day, or have five minutes less of a meeting so they can let their dog out or maybe grab a snack.

And of course, tips to make mental health a priority, establish norms, set the expectation that it’s something that you want to see on your team. And, of course, create training and development around it. Make sure that people understand that mental health is something serious and it’s something that you want them to address. Give them the tools that they need. And, of course, practice empathy and compassion. So, what’s the difference? Let’s talk about the difference. I know a lot of people may get confused with the difference between empathy and compassion, but I’m going to talk about it from the perspective of pity, sympathy, empathy.

• Pity is Hey, I see someone, and I acknowledge that you’re suffering. Oh, that stinks.
• Sympathy is I care about your suffering.
• Empathy is I feel your suffering.
• And compassion is I want to relieve your suffering.

Your goal as a leader is to practice more compassion and empathy. To understand and see things from another person’s perspective.

Communicate Mindfully

Tip two, to help manage mental health at work, is to be a mindful communicator. That means to think before you speak, be open and transparent, reduce ambiguity. People do not thrive in ambiguity. To reduce that when possible. And of course, be an active listener and set clear expectations, be inclusive and pay attention to self-talk.

When someone is Sharing, Remember to W.A.I.T.

One quick tip. If you are trying to listen to someone as they’re sharing it, I want you to consider this acronym, which is common. It’s WAIT. Why Am I Talking? Ask yourself that when someone is sharing or confiding, be an active listener and ask yourself to WAIT, ask yourself, why am I talking? This will give you permission to recognize that you are there to listen, not to provide your own guidance, opinion or feedback.

Embrace Flexibility

So number three, if we wanna support someone’s mental health, we have to embrace flexibility, which means that we have to be open to new ways of thinking. Assume positive intent. If someone is asking for maybe a late start in the day because they have a doctor’s appointment, assume that they’re telling you the truth and that they wouldn’t be asking for this accommodation if they didn’t need it. So, of course, be curious and trust. And here are some quick tips to keep an open mind, get out of your comfort zone, practice, doing things that make you uncomfortable or scare you. Ask questions open-ended questions, avoid assumptions, and stay calm and curious.

Be Inclusive

The fourth tip to make mental health a priority at work is to practice mindful community in using inclusive language. I see you. I feel you or even reflecting is what I’m about to say, going to be productive. And if not, is it worth saying and understanding the role that bias plays on how we see things and always try to create psychological safety for our team members. We need to feel safe at work. When we feel safe, we have the freedom to feel like we can make a mistake without repercussion. Or things aren’t going to be held over our head, or we’re not gonna be yelled at when we can create psychological safety. That is one area that we can soften the impact of mental health that can provide clarity for people to do their job and be mindful of creating opportunities for everyone in your workplace, regardless of your circumstance, think about the unique people that might be caretakers or parents right now in this virtual/hybrid world. What additional support do you need to provide for them so they can be their best self?

Check-in Frequently

Now the final tip for focusing on mental health at work is to make sure that you’re always checking in frequently, that you’re building in water cooler talk. If we want to see the whole person, that means we have to have time to see the whole person. So you need to get to know your people as people.

Make 2022 the Year of Mental Health

Now, I hope you enjoyed this podcast today. And I hope the takeaway is that this is your year! Your year to focus on your own mental health. Mental health will determine every single thing that you do or do not do. How you respond to things, and the type of leader that you can be. So I hope that you task yourself to make mental health a priority in 2022. It’s a serious subject. And it’s something that we want to address. And by the way, if you address your mental health, think about the door that you can open for other people to take hold and control and help and manage theirs! Until next time!

 

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DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches

Intro:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with LaTonya Wilkins, who is the founder of The Change Coaches, LLC, and LaTonya works with C-Suite and executive leaders, teams where human connection and cultural change really happen- below the service. Latonya is a credentialed coach, author, and sought-after keynote speaker, who has inspired audiences all over the world. And today, LaTonya and I are going to talk all about how you can make DE&I a part of your everyday leadership.

Meet LaTonya Wilkins

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with LaTonya Wilkins, and I’m so excited for this conversation cuz we are going to be talking about how you as a leader can bring DE&I into your everyday leadership approach. Thinking about what you can do in your interactions, in your communications with people, just even how you respond in a meeting to make sure that you are practicing things that build an inclusive culture that make sure people feel seen, respected, heard, and valued. Latonya. I have been looking forward to this, and I’m so excited to talk about your newest book, but please, for our audience that does not know you, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be and also your newest book?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. Hi everyone. So I’m LaTonya, and I run a company called The Change Coaches. And basically, we help companies and teams create cultures of belonging. I am an executive coach first, and then I do workshops, and I also am a keynote speaker and master facilitator. Last year or sorry, a couple of months ago, last year. It does seem like last year, a couple

Jenn DeWall:

<Laugh> right. Everything in the last few years just blends together!

LaTonya Wilkins:

<Crosstalk> right! A couple of months ago, I wrote a book called Leading Below the Surface about how to build real psychologically safe relationships with people who are different from you. And I published that book as a culmination of the work that I do. And I culminated that with my experiences in the workplace being “othered” and also my experiences in the workplace of success. And that’s what I call below the surface leaders of the people that I’ve worked with around that. So that’s a little bit about me. One cool thing about the book is Amy Edmondson, who is the Harvard researcher who actually discovered the term psychological safety wrote my foreword. So that’s pretty cool.

Feeling “Othered” in the Workplace

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, that is fantastic. And this is a topic that we know has really kind of taken the forefront, and you described it as feeling othered for those that might not be familiar with what that can look like. What does it mean? What’s the definition of feeling othered? What does that mean?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah, yeah. So that’s been my entire life. So let me talk a little bit about it from like a more childhood perspective all the way up to today in the workplace. So in my book in chapter three, I write my chapter is, is called humans were born to exclude, and I talk about my first experience that I ever remember being othered. And what that looked like is, I was actually in an art class, and I was drawing a picture. I was the only black kid in my class. I grew up in Iowa. And so there’s no one else that looked like me. There’s no one else had that, that color of skin. So I was actually conflicted on what color to make the face of the person that I was drawing. And I decided on a color that I, I think I decided on yellow, and the hair was purple.

And when it came around to me, and I showed my drawing, someone told me that that’s not what that picture should look like and that I was dark and that picture should be dark. And that was the first time I felt othered. Everybody else shared their pictures, and they got applause, and mine was corrected. And that was, and that kind of went on and on. I talked about this in the book where, you know, on the playground, I would, I would get picked last for like Four Square or Dodgeball. And it kind of all started after that incident with that drawing and the workplace, the way that I’ve been othered. And some of you have probably been othered as well is when I, I don’t really fit into one category. Right? You know, I’m a black woman. I identify as a part of the LGBTQ plus community. And so whenever I was trying to go into, for example, join an ERG, for example, employee resource group, I had to pick one of them, and it was always hard. I was always the other that didn’t fit into any of those boxes. And so that’s what othered being othered feels like. Like you, you don’t fit into the boxes that are put out there for the masses, and you’re always in other. You’re always separate. You’re always the exception.

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh. Well, in one, I mean, I can only imagine how that felt to get that feedback when you were younger, just knowing that no one else had that same type of experience and how- I don’t know- just harsh that would feel or alienating just like I’m isolated over here on an island. And when we talk about it at work, and I know we’re gonna go into talking about what psychology, like psychological safety, looks like, you know, today versus before today, but why is it important to actually create an inclusive culture in the workplace? I mean, cuz some people I know in the lines of traditional leadership, they’d be like, oh, it’s just your feelings. You need to get over it. And you know, there are ways that I think people marginalize those experiences. And there’s obviously a shift now where we’re starting to see things differently. But like for those that really need to still hear this message, like why do we need to make sure that we’re creating a place to invite everyone to the table?

Why is DEI Important at Work?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Well, and I’m gonna answer that with a question. Why wouldn’t we want to? I mean, humans are basically they can make or break your workplace. Like if you can’t hire the humans you need, you have no product. If you can’t hire the humans you need, you can’t manage people. If you can’t hire the humans you need, you can’t really grow your company. I mean, we’re not in the age where AI is as yet going to be as productive as an actual human being. So why wouldn’t we care about inclusive leadership? Why wouldn’t we care? Why wouldn’t we wanna make DEI a part of our regular leadership, our day-to-day leadership? And I always ask that with a question, if you are someone that’s struggling with that and you’re thinking this stuff is really not important. Why not? Why wouldn’t it be important?

Because again, it’s, when you think about this stuff and the reason why I wrote this book is that sometimes we pigeonhole DEI into separate, but, and, and a lot of times, the way we talk about this stuff is it is, is separate, but it’s really a part of everyday leadership. I mean, do you manage people that are younger than you? Do you manage people that are a lot older than you? Did you, do you manage people that may have lost someone through the pandemic? Do you manage a worker that is a different class from you again, all of this has to do with inclusion? So I think again, I’d ask you why not, especially if you answered yes to any of those questions. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, let’s talk about the difference between what psychological safety may be used to mean at work or what it was before people really started to have that as a forefront and something that we have to do. So what is the difference between psychological safety before or in traditional leadership versus where it’s at today?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah, I don’t really think we talked about psychological safety as, as we do now before Amy’s work was, was really put out there. I think a lot of times, what we talked about before 2020, I would say, is trust, and we talked a lot about how to build trust in teams. Like that was the buzz buzzword. How do we build trust with our teams and it’s but trust in order to build trust, you, you have to have psychological safety? And that was kind of the missing piece. I think that a lot of people were looking for, they were looking, they knew what that was, but it had never been put into words. And what psychological safety means is that you know, you could speak up at work, and you could make a mistake at work. You could bring your whole self to work without any kind of punishment or repercussions or any harsh judgments, which when I found Amy’s work, and this is the reason why I asked her to be, to, to write my forward, I was like, wow, I haven’t had this in like 90% of my career.

I’d never had it articulated like that. Did I trust leaders? Yeah. But that’s the reason why I trust the leaders is because I had psychological safety. So yeah, I don’t think again, I think we, we just, weren’t talking about it. It wasn’t put into the words that that, you know, how Amy put ’em into for us to be able to understand this and easily digest

Jenn DeWall:

I love that it’s something that’s at the forefront because even, you know, again, we’re not talking about DE&I as something that’s maybe exclusive to one particular part of that conversation. We’re talking about being able to have that ability to bring your full self, to work your full self. I remember the thing, you know, when I talk, when I think, and I’ve shared this example on the podcast before, but when I received the feedback, Hey, Jenn, you need to be more vanilla and more of a yes, man. And you need to stop laughing outside of the office. Those are, are all things that upon receiving that feedback, I wasn’t initially going into the, oh, what’s the coachable way that I can, you know, rectify this. I was actually going to a place of like, wow, I don’t actually add value or I must be too different to actually produce any value for this organization.

Jenn DeWall:

And you think about that for anyone. When we’re excluded, when we’re also penalized for who we are. What does that do for our own engagement? I mean, if you’re telling me that I can’t laugh and I feel like one of my things is the ability to connect with people and just see them as that. And that’s sometimes through humor at work, but you’re telling me I can’t do that. How am I supposed to show up? And on the flip side of that, when I did kind of pull back after I got the feedback that they had a conversation with me that, that I wasn’t supposed to do that, and it’s so confusing. And I just eventually like just created the sense of, I don’t know if this is the right culture that I want to be a part of. And I know that I wasn’t the only one that had those same types of experiences and maybe that one wasn’t related to the fear of failure, but that was definitely related to who I am.

DEI and Psychological Safety

Jenn DeWall:

I’ve also worked in strong fear-based culture in that people kind of always felt like they were like – is someone, someone looking? Or just always feeling like you had to watch your back to make sure that like you weren’t gonna drop the ball or that someone wasn’t after you. I guess those are the ways that I’ve kind of seen psychological safety, maybe show up in a negative way in the workplace when we don’t have it. And what that does for the individual, or even just adding into mental health challenges or disconnection on teams. I said a lot there. I said a lot there. You’re probably like you are in circles, but I, I just love it because I, as someone that I don’t know, I wanna feel seen and maybe that could have something to do with my own childhood, of course. I wanna feel connected. I wanna feel like I matter. And that’s, I feel like everyone wants to feel like they matter. And so I don’t even get why this is kind of a conversation when I feel like it isn’t just being a human being.

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. And I love what you said because I think if you are a manager or you lead a team, and you’re listening to this if we’re trying to fix someone. Like when Jenn described what she just described, all the stories, it was someone trying to fix her and them, they, they didn’t have the right tools, and they kept buying more tools, and they didn’t work. And finally, Jenn left, if you’re trying to fix them, you’re probably not creating a psychologically safe environment again, for people to bring themselves to work their approaches to work again without repercussion or without harsh judgment. It doesn’t sound like Jenn had that. Right? And if you’re trying to fix someone again, it’s like hiring a marketing manager, and they only can market a certain way. And if you’re getting them trying to mold them into exactly what you want, they’re probably not feeling very psychologically safe, especially if you are constantly criticizing their work. And that’s the opposite of it. So thank you for sharing that example because there is a, there are a lot of workplaces that still try to fix their employees. And again, they don’t realize that this takes them further and further away from promoting a psychologically safe environment.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Oh my gosh. I love this conversation. So let’s, we’re gonna baseline it. And we’re gonna talk about, like at a foundational level, what is diversity, equity and inclusion, and how does that relate to leadership?

What is Diversity?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah, so DEI, honestly, I, when I wrote my book, I say several times in my book that it’s not a DEI book because I, I really think, believe that this is a part of leadership. And, and when I, before I wrote Leading Below the Surface, I read a ton of studies, and I did a lot of research, and the research supports it. If in order for this to work, it has to be a part of leadership. But what is DEI? Well, you know, diversity equity inclusion, right? Diversity is knowing your group, looking around, making sure that you have diversity within that group. Diversity does diverse, does not describe a person. That term is often used incorrectly, like “diverse hire.” There’s no such thing you could say, oh, I went diversity on my team. So let’s hire some different types of people. But when you say diverse hire, that actually causes friction in an organization. So I try to stay away from that. That’s not. That’s not really what that means. So that’s diversity.

What is Equity?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Equity is another one that’s often misunderstood, and that’s, whoever is at a workplace, let’s say, let’s take B. And Jenn, for example, let’s assume that we’re on the same team. So whatever Jenn needs in her career to be successful, she has access. And I have access to those same things, not the same things that Jenn needs, but the things that would make me successful, I have access to those. All right. Equity is not a quality, like making it equal for me and Jenn it’s, it’s making sure that if I, again, that I have access to the things that I need in order to succeed and what that might look like is – like the what example that I’ve been talking to, someone, a leader about coaching leader about is there someone on their team that, that has a health issue and giving that person access to address their health issue as like the same way they would give that to someone else. Right? No matter what that health issue is, and the reason why I think this is such a great example is that for example, if there’s if someone’s having a baby, that’s something that people celebrate in our culture, but if someone has a medical condition that has a stigma attached to it, that’s different. Right? And so, you still have to give them equity. Right? My, that Jenn’s equity when she’s having a baby has to be the same as my equity when I have a disease that might have a stigma attached to it. So that’s equity. Inclusion-

Jenn DeWall:

I love that example. And I’m sorry, cut you off. Cause I think that’s a great example that people can relate to like, oh, my colleague is pregnant. This is so great. Of course, they’ll get time off. Of course, we’ll get that. Right. And you don’t hear people saying like, oh my God, did you hear that Latonya is pregnant? She’s gonna take all this time off. But yet then if you’re like, Hey, by the way, did you hear that XYZ is sick with this? Then we’re like, oh, they do not care. They must not do this. Like, I’ve never heard that way of describing.

LaTonya Wilkins:

That is or overweight. And it’s so true. Yeah. Like overweight, like things again with a stigma. There’s we don’t think about, or even people, kids versus no kids, right? Like, like what if Jenn has, you know, she could leave event three o’clock every day to pick up her kids, but you know, person B maybe I don’t have any children, but I need to take off at three every day to, to, you know, expand my education. Right, right. Again, are you giving equity? Is there equity? And it’s not equal, and it’s equity. What I need to succeed in my career might be different from what Jenn might need.

What is Inclusion?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Inclusion is basically bringing in people that come from traditionally marginalized environments. I would say this also means in a way that shares power there’s a saying out there that says something like diversity is inviting someone to the dance, and inclusion is dancing with them. I hate that saying because it’s like, you’re not really sharing the sharing. The power would be, you’re actually asking them what kind of music that you want them to listen to. That’s real inclusion. Like not just dancing with them, but you know, asking them what type of dance they’d like to do or is, you know, asking the type of music that they’d like to dance to again, sharing the power, sharing the decision-making with them.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my God. My, this is, and it’s so important to be able to understand that differentiation. And I like that you take the stance that Leading Below the Surface isn’t just this DE&I book. It’s a way of leading every single day. So let’s talk about where do people get it wrong? And I know we hit on a few examples, but where, so maybe it’s just in looking at this as like this initiative, it’s a strategy that we’re trying to do. That’s the first thing, but where do people get this wrong?

DEI is Not the Side Dish— It’s the Main Dish

LaTonya Wilkins:

I think what people get it wrong again is it’s a side dish, not the main dish. And it’s the main dish, right? It’s, it’s going to work every day and practicing what I call the three prongs of below the surface leadership— empathy is the first prong. Real leadership’s the second prong. And that means relatable, equitable, aware, and loyal. And the third prong is psychological safety. It’s bringing that into your day-to-day leadership. Before I went on my own, I led learning and development teams, Jenn, and you know this. And so it’s in one of the things we always focused on were leadership, like leadership development and competencies, what these leadership competencies were. And these competencies were always like strategy, collaboration, like all those types of things. Right. You know, and they never had below the surface, like, or anything.

Like, there’s never a lot of how we treat people. It was like what we were trying to manage to. And so it’s those again, it’s the how, it’s the, how we get where we’re trying to go. And that’s the advice I would give is to bring this into your daily leadership. You have to think about this again, as the main dish, it’s part of leadership. It’s, it’s part of everything that you do, you lead human beings, right? So you have to be on that level with human beings, like a computer, you have to learn to program a computer. So you also every day have to learn how to effectively build relationships with humans, especially those who are different from ourselves.

Jenn DeWall:

Do we complicate this stuff? Like, do we complicate it? Because sometimes I just, I really do think it comes down to, I love that you say it’s like, it’s the main piece. It’s not just a strategy. It’s a way it’s your how- how you show up as an individual. How in the heck do we get so far away from understanding how to treat people like that? And I know that’s actually a loaded question, and we could probably go a lot of different ways, but to me, in some ways, I just feel like it seems so, like, don’t be a jerk. Like understand that we’re gonna have different points of view, understand that we have different life experiences. And I’m gonna treat you as a human being and love you for being a human being. But yeah, yet, somehow we’re not able to deliver that because otherwise, this wouldn’t be a conversation. So I’m curious what your thoughts are. Like, why do we complicate this?

You Can’t Mandate DEI

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. So there was an article that I cited in my book, and I also do a lot of leadership team coaching, especially with executive teams. I give them this article a lot, but it’s it was written. I think it’s an HBR article, but it was also appeared in Anthropology Today and in a journal, a couple of other journals, and it’s called why diversity initiatives fail. And like I said, HBR repurposed it in 2020. So you could go search that in HBR. You’ll find it. But it’s because we focus again on the wrong things. The number one thing that we focus on that’s overcomplicating it and making it worse is that we mandate the stuff. Nobody likes being told what to do. Okay. So when you start mandating things, then no one’s gonna wanna do it.

The number two thing we do is it’s an us versus them. So we did- all these companies did all these trainings around. Hey, these are the different types of racial groups we work with. These are the kinds of, you know, women’s groups you work with. This is what disparate impact is. People want a role in making change. They want a role in culture change. So when you’re doing these mandatory trainings, you’re telling them what not to do. You’re not telling them what to do, and you’re not letting them kind of decide what to do. So again, the second thing is control. Again, we, we put these things out there.

The third is training. So, and I hate this is gonna be controversial, but that’s also cited in the article. A lot of organizations just do training, and they stop there. Experiential learning is really what’s gonna help. Another thing that’s gonna help is exposure, exposure to different types of people in the world. So again, if you, in your organization, so again, if you’re siloing people and making them do training, and then you’re done after that, that’s not gonna work. But again, you have to have some way to practice this and reinforce it. And so, yeah, we’re overcomplicating it because these are, and that’s just a few facts of what the science says. We’re not following and practicing what the science says. Good. Where are we arbitrarily putting together these DEI functions? That’s what every company did in 2020, especially in 2020. They’re like, we gotta have a DEI, you know, a Chief Diversity Officer. I’m so excited. And then it’s a separate thing. And it’s disconnected again from leadership development. I’ve had that experience. I’ve seen it. So yes, we do overcomplicate it.

Jenn DeWall:

I like that, or I just appreciate that because I didn’t ever hear the perspective of, or I don’t know if I thought about it that way until you just shared it, that you’re mandating a way to treat others. And one of the pieces, I think that’s one of the undercurrents of a DE&I I, is also the ability to be curious with everyone. Yeah. How could I learn? What could you know, what experience do they have that I don’t have, and then you mandate it. And initially, it’s just placing judgment into a thing that maybe prevents us from even being curious in some capacities. Cause we’re like, well, I’m taking on this judgment. So I’m closing down the conversation instead of being like, Hey, what could be a different way that I could approach this? Like I never thought about that until saying, yeah, when you make it a forced thing, then you remove curiosity and then it becomes more of this us against them, like an argument that’s I don’t know why. I didn’t think about that, like as an obvious consequence of mandating this as a strategy, instead of just how you treat people.

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. It’s interesting too, because in social psychology, I mean, there are different types of control, right? There’s formal control, which is like policies and, and compliance and of course structures and systems, but then there’s also social control, which can be good or bad, but social control would be like, you know, your organization is so committed to, you know, DEI or having a culture belonging that there will be social consequences instead of formal hand lapses. Right. And, and so again, that’s another thing that orgs get wrong is like, they get stuck in this kind of compliance space. And again, I’m not saying we don’t need HR policies around some of this stuff, but it’s like a lot of times we put way too much energy there at the expense of the organizational or the social type of control stuff.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and are you having the conversation? I think of an example I’d heard. Gosh, this is probably a few months ago of a set of employees from a specific regional office that was not necessarily happy about all of these new like DE&I initiatives and whether or not I agree with their happiness. I wonder if part of the reason that it also went wrong is like, there wasn’t a curiosity conversation around like what this really can look like and why it’s important. Right? Like they don’t tell the why, they just say, well, we’re gonna make sure we’re aligning with this. Like, but they’re maybe not taking the time to slow down. Like, Hey, here are the things that you may not have visibility to. And this is why this matters. Yeah.

Leaders Should Get Curious about DEI on Their Teams

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. And as a coach, I think that’s important because as a coach when I coach teams, and we talk about, you know, building cultures of belonging and doing these human-centered design sessions, I always make sure everybody has a place in this. And they decide what their place is. And again, we don’t let people do that when we’re doing this old-school type of approach. As Jenn said, there’s no room for curiosity. And there’s also no room for someone to decide, like how they’re gonna make an impact. Right? Ahead of finance or someone that works in finance may look way different than someone working in HR. Right. And so letting them kind of decide, like, how do I wanna do this in my organization? Like, what does my commitment look like? And how could I inspire my team? And it’s different for every organization. Like we’ve we were talking about this too. It might be different also for US-based versus Global based. That’s why it’s so important to let people kind of give people like the base and let them decide, you know, the seasonings and everything else from there because then they’re gonna is more committed to it. Because it’s their own goals, now. It’s not the company, again, pushing things on them.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. They can take their own unique experience perspective and figure out how they can add value. I love that.

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How Do We Create an Inclusive Culture?

Jenn DeWall:

So how do you, okay, here it is? We’re gonna just simplify it. How do you create an inclusive culture? <Laugh>

LaTonya Wilkins:

Oh my gosh.

Jenn DeWall:

And that’s where your book is. And I don’t wanna make it sound in any way that this is just like a one, two, like implement these strategies, especially as we talked about like how mandating isn’t necessarily the way to go, but what are some things that we can do not mandating? What are some things we can do to create a more inclusive culture?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. So earlier I, so if you are someone that is leading a team. Earlier, I talked about, you know, the three prongs of below-the-surface leadership, also in my book, I talk about different tracks of change. And so I’m assuming most of you that are listening are probably leading teams. And so, let’s take the leadership track. So you could create this on your team. You can, and I think there’s a couple of different ways to kind of get started again, the three prongs below the surface, the leadership, our real leadership empathy and empathetic listening, and then psychological safety. So first, study the real leadership principles I talk about in the book, again, relatable, equitable, aware, loyal, all the things, you know, DEI is kind of ingrained in there. That’s everyday leadership to show up and be a real leader with empathetic listening and empathy.

One of the things that I found is that we’re all capable of being empathetic. We just don’t know how to access that. Right. It’s really hard for a lot of leaders to access that, especially considering the roles that they’re in. Again, leaders are there to fix things. They’re there to make sure that things stay on the tracks. And so one of the things you can do to start with is I challenge all of you to go to your next staff meeting and just sit back and listen and observe your team, observe how they’re interacting, observe who’s fitting in. Who’s not observe if they’re someone dominating, observe if that’s how you want these meetings to go—access empathy. Access, trying to get in other people’s shoes as they’re going through their team meeting this, I, this is so important, cuz this is again, this is how you start accessing empathy. And this is what I call person to belonging listening. So again, if you could do that and you can kind of follow up from there, that is gonna go such a long way with people feeling included. Cause I feel like you listen to them and that you saw them. And especially if there’s someone again, that was getting talked over or whatever.

LaTonya Wilkins:

The third is psychological safety, and this one’s hard, really hard to do. And I will, I will admit that. But one of the things you can do is provide some like an article around psychological safety. There are tons out there. You could provide my chapter on psychological safety. I have a whole chapter on how to create that on a team, give it to your team, have them read it and then come together and say, okay, now that you’ve read a little bit about psychological safety, how can we create that on our team? What are, what, what do you think are, are some of the ways that, that you think we could do this? And again, those are three easy ways. These are three accessible ways to get started with creating a culture of belonging, especially on your team and from there, then you could scale to your organization. But one interesting fact is like when you ask employees about the culture, their culture that they have and whether or not they have a culture of belonging. Usually, they’re gonna answer that question with their team in mind, not their org in mind. So start with your team.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You could see different ways that that manifests in the culture that maybe makes it not seem like a culture. That’s very like a belonging culture versus on your team, and your leadership might be taking the right actions to be able to make the right environment. I’m curious about the empathetic listening component because I think that, you know, if we wanna deep dive into that in terms of how that derails teams or why you need to start doing it, I think of first the piece of what are all the things that you’re missing just by not slowing down or by having your face down into your phone, reading an email, instead of realizing that you could have someone that’s a top performer that maybe feels discouraged or just not included on their team, that’s actually ready to think, oh, maybe I’m gonna go somewhere else, but you’re not paying attention. You’re not paying attention. So I feel like a lot of this is just right in front of you if you actually take the time to do it. And I think we complicate it again with strategies. What should I be doing? Paying attention. So I just think that’s a huge piece that a lot of people just miss out on like they’re too busy thinking about how can I get budget to, you know, give people more money instead of thinking what’s actually going on in my team right now that could create a bad place or a place where people just don’t feel like they belong.

Listening Skills are Essential to DEI

LaTonya Wilkins:

Absolutely. And that’s like there are two different listening ways to listen that I talk about in, in the empathy chapter, once person-to-person listening. And that’s what you were described. The second is person-to-belonging listening, which I talked about earlier. Just looking around the person-to-person, it’s just, there are so many people of you have felt this way, where someone asked you how you’re doing, and you know, they zoned out when you answered it. Right. <laugh> and there’s too much of that going on. And so person-to-person listening is playing things back, you know, matching the energy of the other person. You know, trying to come from a place of curiosity and asking powerful questions. Like all those things are important, and we, frankly, do not do enough of it. As you said, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

What do you think like from your experience? Why do you think some people are reluctant to maybe come into this conversation? Like I, I would say what are the fears that may be a leader has for wanting to be more, I guess, curious with things, is it a fear of like a loss of control? Is it that they find things that they won’t be able to fix? Because clearly, there’s a reason that people are also afraid to address this in some way. And I’m curious, are there stigmas there stereotypes or just the, what are they afraid of? Why we’re not doing this,

LaTonya Wilkins:

The empathy part? Or all of it?

Jenn DeWall:

You know, I think the empathy piece, because it’s, you’re talking about person to person listening, and I sometimes think in leadership it goes against that or counters to traditional leadership, like this, we don’t care about them. Like emotions- they have no place in the work. Like they should just shut that off.

Start With The Basics—And Practice Them!

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. You know this is really interesting because I do facilitation for some other companies quite a bit. Right. And one of them came to me and said, well, I don’t know if we wanna do empathy. That seems like a very basic skill. And a lot of the leaders came back and said, that’s too basic for them. I’m like, what? Like they don’t do it. So, so I think that’s what it is. I do think that it’s like when you’re talking about active listening, leaders are like, oh that’s, so that’s basic. And I’m like, wow. Again, and I think Jenn, I don’t blame the leaders. Again. I think it’s like we have these leadership competencies, and they’re like, these big pie in the sky things like strategy, you know, collaboration technology. And so again, the hows are like, oh, of course, I know how to do that. That’s common sense. But this is why we are where we are now. And yeah. That’s why we don’t do it again because there are too many orgs that, that aren’t considering these essential leadership skills again.

Jenn DeWall:

I just, I think that this is, I mean, it’s, I know that maybe I’m a little bit passionate and I want to, you know, just asking more questions because this truly is, we’re thinking about even making an impact your organization. Absolutely. Just seeing people, seeing them as individuals and practicing curiosity, or as you had said, even just taking the second to see things from another perspective. What about their request from you? Maybe it isn’t that bananas. If they’re asking for additional time off in the form of equity and support, what about blank, you know, or what are the things that you’re holding onto? Maybe it’s the example of like emotions shouldn’t exist at work, and people shouldn’t show that that maybe actually isn’t relevant in what we need from leaders today. I just, love this conversation because I think we’re truly finally moving forward and having open conversations that address the fact that we are all completely different and we are human beings with feelings, emotions, experiences, so on and so forth. And we want to be seen, I just, I don’t know why, again, we just shut the door on that conversation. But I think the work you’re doing is so important. LaTonya, what would be, you know, knowing that we’ve got to be close to wrapping up. I do wanna ask them where they can get the book, but what would be your final, I guess, tips or just something that you would want to share in closing with the audience to help them, I guess, feel the permission to actually start to find their own way to make a more inclusive culture.

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. So a couple of things I’ll say is we could all do this. Like it’s, it’s gonna take a lot of practice for some of us. It’s gonna take some rewiring, but we can all do this. The second thing is if you’re listening to this and you’re like thinking, oh my gosh, I was that person that thought listening was too basic. That’s okay. We forgive you. And we understand that. A lot of structures and systems and orgs need to, to be changed again to bring some of these principles that I’m discussing to the forefront of leadership, curriculum, approaches, leadership development. We’re not there yet. So that’s okay. So just be forgiving to yourself today, if you are one of those people that was thinking, wow, this is so basic, like this has to do with DEI? I had no idea. Yes, it does. And so that’s okay.

The third thing I would say is I wouldn’t, don’t try to memorize anything again. Like I, I know a lot of times when I was doing talks, especially in 2020, when I was like, every time I did a talk, people were, were like, what could I read? I need to read a bunch of books. I need to do all this. That’s okay and all. But we gave you everything you need today. And you could just, just go instead of reading like 10 books and taking yourself even further away from your team, go out there and practice that empathy that we talked about. Go out there and talk about psychological safety on your team. Go out there and be more curious. Go out there and start practicing real leadership and embracing some of this stuff because this is really where it starts. So again, those are my tips and we could all do this and I I’m, I’m excited to see you do it too. Yes.

Where to Find LaTonya’s Book, Leading Below The Surface

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, LaTonya! So, where can people get your book Leading Below the Surface? Where do they pick that up?

LaTonya Wilkins:

Yeah. So it’s on every site pretty much where you could buy a book. So if you go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, just LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, that’s where you could kind of pick where you wanna buy your book. Obviously, it’s on Amazon, and it’s on Bookshop, Target, Barns & Noble. So go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, and you can find a direct link.

Jenn DeWall:

LaTonya, thank you so much for just sharing your insights. Also, thank you for challenging the way that we look at this and how we can take it on to, you know, be a part of this where we’re feeling like it’s active everyday leadership. I just appreciate you breaking it down into like, a how, not a strategy. I love your perspective, and thank you so much for giving us a different way to look at it and approach it.

LaTonya Wilkins:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me today.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was great to sit down with LaTonya. I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to connect more or learn more about LaTonya, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, or you can head on over to LaTonyaWilkins.com. There you can purchase her newest book, Leading Below the Surface: How to Build Real and Psychologically Safe Relationships With People Who Are Different From You. If you enjoy this week’s episode, please don’t forget to leave us a review. And of course, if you have any leadership development needs for yourself or your team, head on over to crestcom.com. We would love to help you develop your skill sets! Until next time.

 

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Minisode: How to Cultivate a Growth Mindset with Jenn DeWall

Full Transcript Below:

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we’re doing a minisode all around cultivating a growth mindset. And this was created as a result of one of Crestcom’s monthly webinars. So if you’re looking to develop yourself, head on over to Crestcom.com. We offer complimentary 60-minute webinars every single month on a variety of leadership topics. But here we go. Let’s talk about what it means to cultivate a growth mindset!

Growth Mindset is About Your Perspective

Jenn DeWall:

Mindset is all about our perspective. We think if it’s a fixed mindset, you can even picture yourself in a box. When we’re in that fixed mindset place, we’re in that box, and it can feel really difficult to break out of it. We feel like maybe we’re stuck. That there’s nothing that we can do. And, of course, what we want as leaders is to feel a growth mindset. That feeling that that box is open, that there are more solutions available to us, and of course that we can make change happen and that we can always change.

Comfort Should Scare You

But here’s the thing that we have to know about a growth mindset. This is one of my favorite quotes. It’s one that I often share when I’m facilitating or speaking. And it’s all about comfort should scare you. Now, why does that matter? Why should comfort scare you? Well, as individuals, as leaders, our brain craves stability. We don’t necessarily love change. And as a result, we get into our comfort zones. And when we live in those comfortable spaces, taking risks can feel more challenging. Hearing new ideas can feel a little uncomfortable, and we then can keep ourselves stuck because we don’t necessarily want to put ourselves out of our comfort zones. And so the consequence of that for an organization could be maybe not pushing the envelope in innovation or looking for more creative ideas or as an individual, maybe you stop wanting to develop yourself.

Maybe you think, well, I’ve got this figured out, that’s totally fine. And then you start playing safe, and you might realize that you’re not as happy or fulfilled as you once were because you’re not challenging yourself. So comfort should scare you. So what are we going to talk about in this minisode? We’re going to talk about the difference between a growth and effects mindset and apply a framework to adjust your mindset as well as create a strategy or give you tips on how you can develop a growth mindset on your team. So types of mindset that we’re going to be talking about today, there are many, there are many different ways to look at this, but we’re going to start with just talking about the basic, which is a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And a fixed mindset is simply defined as people believing that qualities like intelligence and talent are fixed states that cannot be improved through our efforts.

And so what does, what are the characteristics of that? It could feel like when we embrace that fixed mindset, that we’re avoiding risks or challenges that we believe that, you know what, we probably can’t improve our intelligence or our strengths, or that you either have it, or you don’t. And sometimes, when we come from a fixed mindset, and we refute, and we receive feedback, we can actually feel it as a personal attack or criticism because we feel helpless, right? There’s nothing that I can do. That’s that fixed mindset. And we can then feel threatened by others’ successes. And we might even try to hide our flaws or mistakes. Fixed mindsets keep us stuck. They also put us in that place of personal attack, right? We feel like we have to defend ourselves, and this can be problematic if you’re working with others, as you might have more of a competitive or contentious relation, or if you’re a leader and you’re managing a team, and maybe you’re threatened by someone else’s strengths.

True Potential is Unlimited

Now our goal as leaders is to show up with that growth mindset, which is defined as when people believe that true potential is unlimited. And with effort and determination, individuals can enhance their skills and abilities. Now, characteristics of a growth mindset are embracing risks or challenges. Looking at those as opportunities to not only develop yourself but also to push the envelope to help your own organization or team move forward, that essentially says we can handle any task that comes our way. And then, of course, other characteristics believe that we can improve our own strengths. We can improve our intelligence and that no matter what, we’re always growing. If you’re not growing, you’re dying. So we always have to have that ability to see that no matter what the circumstance or problem, there’s always an upside within it. And when we have that growth mindset, and we receive feedback, instead of like the fixed mindset where we might defend or view that as a personal attack or criticism, then we look at this as, thank you so much.

You’re giving me an opportunity to improve, to make a greater impact, to solve problems more efficiently and so on and so forth. And when we have that growth mindset, we can then extend that to others. We look at opportunities to develop others. Maybe even if they have a strength that’s greater than our own, we want to support others’ success. And, of course, we look at mistakes as learning opportunities. So if we’re trying to think about what this sounds like in our head, a fixed mindset kind of believes I’m either good at it, or I’m bad at it. Whereas a growth mindset would then say, I can always develop and learn, or another example, a fixed mindset. We either won, or we lost; we’re winning, or we’re losing. And of course, the growth mindset is that no matter what happens, we’re always learning, and we can always learn how to improve, do better and make better decisions.

Growth Mindset or Fixed Mindset?

The next time, think, Hey, a fixed mindset. I can’t figure this out. I probably won’t be able to, and with that growth mindset, I can’t figure this out yet. YET. We’re giving ourselves permission to not know the answers. And I think that’s something that’s really important for leaders is we often put that pressure to know and fix. And Hey, maybe it’s just an opportunity to ask for help to pick up a book, to do a little bit more research. It’s not that you will never be able to figure something out. It’s that you can’t do it yet. And that gives you permission to learn and make different choices. And it improves your competence because the thing about mindset, the truth about it is that it’s a muscle that requires discipline to maintain. We will always fall back into our comfort zones. Again, that’s our brain’s way of saying, Hey, stay safe there.

So we have to be very intentional about creating and flexing that muscle of a growth mindset. Because mindset, if we don’t do anything, if we live in that place of a fixed mindset, it can impact our behavior. How we show up in certain circumstances, the choices that we make ultimately impact the outcomes that we achieve. Mindset will even impact how we cope in a situation. How do we handle when mistakes happen or when- you know what- something doesn’t go as planned. And it also gives us permission to learn to always bro, which then gives us that opportunity to challenge ourselves, to see how strong we are, how resilient we are. So mindset will impact our ability to be resilient. Think about the pandemic. All of us likely had to say, okay, there’s a lot of uncertainty here, but let’s focus on what we can control.

I know that we can navigate our way through all of these challenges. There is resilience there. And, of course, when we have that positive growth mindset, it improves our ability to take risks. Both our organization, our team, and us as individuals improve our relationships. And of course, it makes us more adaptable. So how do you develop a growth mindset? Well, to talk about a mindset, we also have to talk about competence, which is a feeling of self-assurance arising from one’s appreciation of our own values and qualities or abilities. And when we’re confident or when we’re not confident, it will impact cultural norms. Maybe what we expect as, you know, desired behavior or what we even reward. It’s going to impact the skills and training that we pursue. If I’m telling myself and I’m not feeling confident, and I’m living in that fixed mindset, then I’m telling myself, I guess there’s nothing that I can do and then I’m not looking for opportunities to develop.

Other things that also will impact our ability or confidence are, of course, our background and our life experience, or maybe we have felt rejected in the past. Or, of course, like everyone listening to this podcast, we’ve experienced self-doubt or limiting beliefs. And when we listen to those things that I’m not good enough, I’m always failing. Then, of course, it can make us feel like there’s nothing we can do. It’s keeping us in that fixed mindset. But here’s what I want you to know. Your self-worth is determined by you. You do not have to depend on someone to tell you who you are. Now that is confidence. We are being able to look within ourselves and see that I produce strength and value and that no one else can tell me whether or not I do. I own that at a basic level. I know my capabilities. And when we can see that within ourselves as leaders, then we can also acknowledge and appreciate the strengths of others, giving them permission to be more confident, giving them permission, to lean into their strengths and really let themselves fly.

A 5-step Process to Cultivating a Growth Mindset

So how do you change your mindset? It’s a five-step process, and it starts with checking in, creating a vision, doing scenario planning of the “what if”, thinking about the obstacles that you’ll have to overcome and creating a strategy to minimize them, and then, of course taking action.

Check In With Yourself

So let’s talk about checking in with yourself. That really starts with self-awareness, which is understanding your own emotional needs and drives to relate with others successfully. When we’re more self-aware, of course, we can solve problems better. We can manage our relationships. We understand our strengths and weaknesses, and most importantly, they understand our triggers. So if you’re working on fostering and building that self-awareness, things that you can do are to identify feelings and emotions, understand what’s really going on. What were you triggered by when maybe someone showed up late for a meeting? Also, practicing curiosity, how do you observe the rule or the world around you? The circumstances, the problems- are you reacting to it in a place from a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. And, of course, understand your strengths and weaknesses. When we understand our weaknesses, they can become opportunities, opportunities for us to develop or opportunities to delegate or get someone else involved that might have that as a strength. And of course, if we’re trying to check in with ourselves, we have to understand why do we make the decisions that we do? Do we do it from a place of fear of rejection or not wanting someone to see our flaws, talking about that imposter syndrome? Or are we making decisions from that place of possibility? Hey, this is how we can move the needle. This is how we can further grow and develop. And of course, if we’re talking about checking in with ourselves, I think there’s a relationship that we can all start to develop, which is giving ourselves grace, giving ourselves permission to own our mistakes, but not live there. To take accountability for them to do something different, to apologize, no matter what that is, when you make a mistake, own it to control it.

Create A Vision

The second piece is to set the vision or the goal. What are you trying to achieve as a leader? What are you trying to achieve as an individual? It’s easy to stay in a fixed mindset when we don’t have a vision or a goal because we’re not really sure what we’re working towards. So when we have that vision or goal, it can help us make better decisions, solve problems faster. It can even motivate us. Of course. And then, it also helps to foster our own resilience when a mistake or problem comes our way. If we have that clear vision or goal of what we want to achieve, then we can use that excitement, that enthusiasm—making that “Why”- Why are we doing that- bigger than your “But”- the but, or the reason not to. To help you make decisions and keep going. So if you’re talking about how to do, you set a vision or a goal, make sure that you’re specific, understand what you’re working towards. It can’t be something big and of building small and large goals too often. We just set a grandiose vision, and then we have no plan for how we’re going to accomplish it. So make those micro-goals or milestones to check in that know that each one that you accomplish is getting you one step closer to where you want to be. So, of course, you want to visualize and measure your progress and then also set a deadline for when you are going to achieve it.

Do Some Scenario Planning:  What if Up/What if Down

Now, the third thing that you can do to cultivate a growth mindset is scenario planning. You can think about this as What if Up? What if things all go right? Or What if Down? What if nothing goes right now? What if down can sound like this? What if I don’t do well on that presentation? What if I don’t get the promotion or the job? What if I bomb that interview? What if no one likes me as a leader? What if I fail? Now? We have a natural tendency to What if Down. Our brain is doing that because it wants to anticipate. Hey, if things don’t go our way, I want to make sure that we can survive and adapt. But the thing is, when we live in the What if Down space and we don’t move to the, What if Up, then it can keep us stuck.

It can discourage us. And, of course, break our confidence. So our goal in developing a growth mindset is to practice scenario planning. So not only do the, What if Up, What if Down, which is what most of us will have the natural tendency to do, but then also doing the, what if up, I want you to expand your possibilities such as what if I do well on my presentation? What if I do get that promotion or a job? What if people like me? What if my team actually likes me? Or what if I succeed now? The benefit of scenario planning, of course, it gives us confidence motivation. It helps us make decisions faster and solve problems in a greater way. So how you can practice this in a situation that you’re going into, you’re already doing, the What if Down, which is the worst-case scenario, but then I want you to What if Up, which is the best-case scenario. So use Up to inspire you and use down to prepare. Maybe use that to talk about some obstacles that you might have to overcome, which is step four in cultivating a growth mindset.

Identify Any Obstacles and Create a Strategy to Overcome Them

You’ve got to identify your obstacles. Now here’s the thing about life. I wish that these weren’t true, but all of us are facing these circumstances. If you are doing life right, it’s going to be hard. If you’re pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, if you’re being vulnerable, if you’re taking risks, they’re not easy because we typically haven’t seen those situations or environments before. And you know, one thing we always have to look at, if we’re thinking about a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, it can be really easy to just say, I don’t have a budget. I don’t have resources. I don’t have this. Yep. You don’t have anything. And I know that for, as a leader, sometimes it’s extremely struggling to say, what do you want us to do? We have no resources, but here’s the thing. A growth mindset says we can still figure it out. I know it’s not ideal. I know it’s not what we want, but we can still navigate it through. So I want you to keep these truths about work and life in your head so you can understand them as not something that’s a fatal flaw. That’s unique to you. It’s something that you can absolutely overcome.

Or another truth about life. You will never find the time for everything. If you want time, you got to make time, or you will always encounter someone difficult to work with. I wish that every single organization that I went to everyone was getting along grand, they love one another, but you know what? We’re all completely different individuals. We’re not all going to have the same communication styles or work ethics, or preferences. And so sometimes, yeah, conflict is going to happen. Or we may not necessarily connect with a coworker that does not mean that we have to leave our jobs. That does not mean that we have permission to be disrespectful to someone. That does mean that we’ve got to figure out ways to adapt.

And another truth about work and life is that the only thing constant is change. You can always change. That is the heart of a growth mindset. You can always change, make a different choice, do something different, learn a new tool or skill you are not stuck with just because you’ve made a mistake. You can always change. And then finally, just as a reminder, every choice will either bring you closer to or further away from your goals. It’s important for a growth mindset to be more intentional with understanding how we’re making choices, navigating and perceiving our environments. So tips to identify those obstacles and why that’s important is that it helps us be more adaptable.

When we understand the obstacles that we can potentially face, then we can create little strategies or at least have awareness around what could potentially come our way and then label it as something that we really need to care about, or it may not happen. So that’s okay. So how can you identify obstacles? Well, it starts with just maybe answering some self-reflection questions. What could impact your ability to be successful? Is it budget? Is it resources? Is it something that’s out of your control, and then list and describe the impact? What does that look like? And then determine, based on the impact, if you can proceed or what you need to do to minimize it. Another thing that you can do is also reflect, think about past obstacles that you’ve experienced. Maybe sometimes you have a tendency that when someone gives you feedback to shut down or to defend, and that’s probably not working in terms of solving problems or connecting with your team.So if that was an obstacle for you in the past, what are you going to do to manage that trigger or to embrace feedback in a different way today? And then, of course, create a strategy to minimize or eliminate that obstacle.

Now, Take Action!

Now, the fifth thing that you need to do for cultivating and growth mindset is then all about action. When we take action, it quiets our anxiety. It builds our confidence and helps with decision-making and problem-solving. And then it allows us to say and get feedback. It is what we’re doing, working or not working. And if it’s not working, how can we then take those learnings and make a different choice? So tips on taking action are to remember small steps over time. It does not need to be one big grandiose step or one big outcome. Remember, slow and steady wins the race.

And of course, focus on the end result, build some enthusiasm. What are you looking to achieve? How is that going to help your organization, your team, or yourself? And then, of course, celebrate those wins. Now earlier, we talked about having a plan, having that vision or goal and breaking that down into smaller goals. This is an opportunity to celebrate mini wins! Too often. We wait until the end of a project or the end of something that we’re working on, and that ends could have taken a year. It could have taken a year and a half, and we don’t even celebrate until a year and a half later when we’ve been working our tails off to achieve something. Make sure that you’re building in opportunities to win. And, of course, be consistent. We know that we’re more not consistent. We can’t expect those results that are going to get us to that big goal. So take consistent, small actions and hold yourself accountable. And of course, remember when we’re talking about taking action, give yourself permission to ask for help, do not expect that you have to do it all on your own.

Now, the final thing is that I’ll just share some tips on how you can build a growth mindset on your team. Things you can do are to practice frame storming, give your team and yourself the opportunity to look at the problem that you’re facing and think about all of the opportunities, maybe in the era of the great resignation, your team or your culture is facing the challenge of turnover. And instead of living in this place of scarcity. Oh my gosh, we’re losing people left and right. Maybe this is an opportunity to make some changes in the culture that make people want to stay.

Also, set team norms. If you want to have a growth mindset on your team, you also have to set that in the form of expectations. Hey, we don’t look at problems as stopping points. We look at problems to figure out solutions for set team norms, or another team norm could be, Hey, if you’ve got a criticism, make sure you’re also coming up with a solution. We don’t just want to talk about the negative side of things. And, of course, be transparent when you are open and honest. It builds trust. People are more engaged when you are withholding information. It breaks down trust. They can disengage. They might start looking elsewhere, or they just might simply not do what you want them to do.

And then, of course, measure outcomes, not hours. Do not just look at people as a means to an end. Think about it, and maybe this looks different for everyone. The outcomes that they’ve achieved, all of us have different strengths. All of us have different backgrounds and experiences, and our outcomes will look different. It is not a fair way to assess someone’s performance by just strictly looking at their hours. And the last thing it makes sure that you’re encouraging collaboration and displaying vulnerability showing your team that you are too, just as they are, perfectly imperfect. We’re always learning and growing. We’re not ever going to always make the right choices. Even though we always will have the right intentions, when you can display this vulnerability, it can chip away at that fear-based culture. But also says to people it’s okay, do your best. And it could remove that stress that they have of trying to be perfect. And then that can actually help them make better decisions. So, as a reminder, if we’re talking about how do we cultivate that growth mindset, I want to leave you with this. If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, and that’s from Wayne Dyer. And I hope that as you listen to this many, so today you look at all the possibilities and opportunities that are around you. And even if you’re feeling stuck, you’ll give yourself permission to say, and you know what? I can change.

How to Connect with Crestcom

I hope you enjoyed this minisode today. If you want to learn more about Crestcom, head on over to Crestcom.com. There, you can find more information about getting us in to talk to your team, whether live or virtually and conduct a two-hour leadership skills workshop. We’re talking about how we can help your team be better leaders, how they can collaborate better together, how they can help your organization solve challenges. And of course, if you know someone that could benefit from this minisode, if they just need that boost of enthusiasm, share this with them. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. And Hey, last- I hope to see you at this month’s webinar. We always do or typically do webinars at Crestcom at the end of the month. So I hope to see you on that Thursday, learning about a variety of different leadership topics. Thank you so much for giving me your time and attention today. And again, I hope that you change the way that you look at things. So then, the things that you look at can change.

 

The post Minisode: How to Cultivate a Growth Mindset with Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Recover from a Crisis with Communications Expert Zach Giglio

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Zach Giglio. Zach is a communications expert with more than a decade of experience in public relations, public affairs marketing, and both digital and social media. He has worked for the largest public relations agency in the world in both Washington, DC and Johannesburg. And he’s also worked as an independent contractor. Today, Zach is the CEO of his own boutique communications firm. And we are going to be talking all about how you can recover from a crisis. Now, before you turn this off, I want you to know that crisis isn’t necessarily that big, bad thing that we’d see in the news. It could also be a mistake, a misstep, or maybe something that, you know, that’s broken trust that you need to recover from. So enjoy as Zach shares his tips on what to do to recover from a crisis.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode, I’m sitting down with the CEO of GCM, Zach Giglio. Zach, thanks so much for joining us today on The Leadership Habit. It’s great to have you.

Zach Giglio:

Thanks for having me. I’m really looking forward to the conversation.

Meet Zach Giglio, CEO at GCM

Jenn DeWall:

So you’re a CEO. You have a fantastic business. I know in our pre-call we just went in so many different directions in terms of leadership, what you can do, but for our listeners, could you just talk a little bit about your story, how you came to be because today we’re going to be talking about how do you recover from a crisis? And some people might be thinking, well, I’m not in a crisis moment, but a criticism could be even a small mistake that you make to a consumer to all the way of the big ones, where we have to rebuild trust. So as you’re listening to, Zach’s going to give insights from his experience, but he has great experience and background and knowledge in terms of helping you make sure that you’re doing the right things in that point of crisis, mistake, whatever we want to call it, to make sure that you are rebuilding trust to make sure that you are connecting. And, of course, rebuilding the image that you might have as a leader or an organization. So Zach, yeah, let’s kick it off. How did you come to be? Like, how did you get into this line of work? What’s your background and experience? Please share with our listeners.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. And I’m looking forward to talking about the crisis, and that’s a good point just before I get into it about people think crisis, we think it’s just like the massive thing that has to happen, but it also refers to those smaller things, which could eventually turn into that massive thing that you don’t want, too, if you don’t deal with it. So that’s a good plan. I think I think it’s good for people to remember that. So, you know, I don’t know what it was like, there’s I try to like put logic behind, like how did I get into comms? And it’s really hard for me to think about, except when I was younger, people always said I should be a lawyer. I never really had that much difficulty finding some common ground with people when I was talking to him about something.

So what I was telling them a story or an argument or disagreement, I always loved being able to like reach people on some human level where I felt like relapsing either. And that was even as a kid. I was getting in trouble for something, you know, I got like a bad grade on the test or something way worse. You know. So I always liked that. So I should be a lawyer, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it just never felt right. And so, I thought like the next logical thing was somehow getting into communication. So I could tell stories for a living, figure out how to communicate messages in a way that resonated with people. And so I got started with that, and that’s what I ended up falling in love doing. And I think the other combination of that, and I’ve had the privilege of being able to travel.

They’ve been working around the world. So I’m from Long Island, New York, but I’ve also lived in working around Shanghai, in China, in Johannesburg, South Africa, in Washington, DC for a while. And now we’re in the Charleston area in South Carolina, and something that was a constant, that was really strong for me was the power that human connection we made on my memory on my life and on where my life was going after those moments, whether it was from China back to DC or DC over to South Africa and things. And I realized after, especially starting in my professional career, that nothing happened of significance that wasn’t based on some sort of strong human-level connection. And so when we were deciding to go on our own and to do our own thing with GCM, my wife and I, it was my business partner who I met in China and did most of these travels with me, and she’s from South Africa.

Creating Human Connections

Zach Giglio:

We, we decided that we wanted to create these human connections that we’ve had the fortune of having, but just on a much larger scale with large businesses so we can maximize, but this ability or anybody’s ability to create those human connections, which again, we know, move that needle. And so GCMS, a family-founded global comms agency. We believe in the power of business as a force for good and in human connection. And we get to know our clients from the inside out, and we create thoughtful communications and marketing campaigns that we think resonate on a human level.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And that’s what’s so important these days. I think from a consumer perspective. It is really hard when you feel like you’re being sold something without even them seeing you in the equation. I mean, I even think about just the one-off, maybe LinkedIn conversations. I’m so reluctant to sometimes even accept a new request because I know that it could potentially unleash the I’ve someone else shared this ex this phrase pitch-slapping, or you might get “networked on” where they just, you know, go into your email box and don’t even think about you as a human. And I think so many people are, so I get it, they’ve got great products, great services, but yet the gap that they can’t bridge is that human communication piece or that human connection piece. And that’s what I think is so important about what does, because you can’t just try to promote your service, and we know that, but then again, if we know it, why the heck am I receiving these very awkward LinkedIn requests? If you know that it’s all about building trust and being real. I mean, I don’t know if you have any take on that. It’s still interesting that I think we, that piece of genuine human connection, is missing in some of those platforms that we have to use, and that makes me just kind of want to, you know, avoid or not work with someone because they’re not treating me or seeing me as an individual. They’re seeing me as someone that could buy their service.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. I, I don’t think I could say it better, but basically, the way you just said it, quite honestly. And I might actually steal some of that like percent use because you’ve put like a really good, like a really fine point on it. And that’s exactly like when something’s happening to us, we feel it. Like, we, we do not control in any situation in our life, those feelings we have when something happens to us. Like scientifically, like, like we don’t control those feelings, we can control what we do with that, but we don’t control those feelings. And we know somewhere at a deep level, like when we’re not- to your point- when we’re “networked on,” which is such a, such a funny phrase. But, but it’s, it’s completely true. And a lot of times the worst thing, especially you got going back to this LinkedIn thing, is when it is, it’s so forced in the pitches, but it is, it is templatized in a way that is supposed to like sound human as if it’s like talk and then at least if you’re doing a numbers game like if it was me, I would be like, look, I have no idea who you are. I just Googled you or searched you because you’re the CEO or you some company and my business like survives on a numbers game. So I’m sending as many of these out there like, as possible, hoping that you need my service. I would look at that and be like, that’s awesome. That is totally true and authentic. You’re not considering me, but at least you’re acknowledging that. Like, that’s rather than being like, Hey, I really love what you’re doing at insert company name. So many times where I get, I get messages where it’s like, where they’re like, Hey, just wondering if you’re ready for a change and kind of getting tired at your work at GCM. And I was like, I founded it. It’s like, what do you like, what are you going to get another job? Like, that’s not, that’s not how that works. But you raise a good point. Like in all seriousness, that is the problem with it is like, we’re not being treated as, as humans. And I don’t know how much that stuff works. But when we’re not being treated as humans, when the language isn’t resonating with us on a global level, we’re just not going to do anything with it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I just, that’s what I love about your organization and what you’re trying to do because I would appreciate it. If someone honestly did come at me and say, Hey, I know you don’t know you at all. I know we’ve never worked together. I would love to get to know more about you, but it’s not. Hey, did you have time to check out my blank, blank, blank that I sent you that you didn’t ask for? No, I didn’t because I didn’t need it. And also, yes, everyone else, you know, and I, I get the sense of having that system and that customizable message. That’s quick, like copy-paste. You know, you could see the numbers game piece, but everyone’s doing that. Now that message is the exact same. I really appreciate the work that you do really blank, blank, blank. Like those messages are everywhere.

And it just makes me again want to avoid that. So I think it’s so important that GCM is taking the stance of like, how can we actually build these authentic connections? Because that’s what I feel like Crestcom does as a leader. Like how can we actually show people to be the best leader, to connect at a deep level, to create an inclusive environment? And so I think it’s so important and we’re going to be talking about today, like, how to recover from a crisis, which is actually a topic that, you know, I know that you can do that because that’s, you know, part of what GCM does as well in terms of how do you inspire those human connections? How do you rebuild that human connection when it might’ve been lost? Because we might’ve made missteps as a leader, right? You might have maybe gone all-in on a strategy that then you realized wasn’t a great fit and you have to rebuild trust, or maybe you have maybe broken trust with your customer, and you’re trying to rebuild, or maybe there is a bigger public scandal or misstep that hit the headlines or current events.

Jenn DeWall:

And you really need to do some deep, I guess, public relations on managing that image. So you don’t drop your market share. So no matter where you are in the organization, this is an important topic. How do you recover from a crisis? How do you require or recover from a mistake? Like that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. And I think it’s one that is not always talked about, probably because it’s uncomfortable because typically, if you attach the word crisis, it means that there might be some feelings on it or points of view. And so, how do you even begin to address that question, right? You typically the people that are coming to you to say, how do I recover from a crisis are likely in crisis mode. They’re not proactively thinking and planning. How can I actually make sure I manage these things? If they go awry?

Be Prepared for Crisis Before the Crisis

Zach Giglio:

Oh yeah. Crisis is like the hardest service to sell because you ideally want to sell it and start doing like working in crisis before, to your point, a crisis happens. Because one, you should be doing like an audit. Like where is the crisis? Like, like potentials, how do we plan for that? Are there things that maybe we are, you should be doing a little bit more or for a little bit best stuff, because we don’t really want that to happen? Like there’s a lot of times where the comms industry can lead on really important structural change within an organization just by going because they might not like it. It’s not to your point. Like, oh, maybe you’ve made a mistake, but like, if you’re not leading hard enough or you’re not like going out there and doing enough, then you might not make a mistake, but you should.

I think people can see making mistakes as a good sign that they’re growing, that they’re taking chances that they’re trying things. Because if you’re not making mistakes, then maybe you’re being a little bit too conservative. And like, you’re not trying enough where you’re not putting yourself out there enough. So it will happen. A hundred percent, you will make a mistake on some level, whether it’s you or your entire organization. But I think it is very normal for people within an organization to be a little bit more blind to, or it’s harder for them to see maybe where some of those mistakes actually are. And so by working with the con professional, before a crisis happens, you can start maybe sussing that stuff out, but when a crisis happens or when something’s wrong, it’s, it’s also like, even at the moment you would think, okay, well, we’re an organization that understands we’re having a crisis and we need to do something about it.

We need to start communicating. We need to change some things. But even then, like within organizations, it’s very common for not everybody to be on the same page in an organization on whether or not there’s even a crisis happening and whether or not that even needs to be a plan. I mean, like that is like the first step. It’s not like, oh, we have a crisis. What do we do? It’s like, we have a crisis. Right? Like this is actually a problem that we need to be working on, right? I mean, I was in a conversation, not like a week or so ago, and there wasn’t alignment, and we couldn’t help him because half the people thought there was a crisis and that they should do something. And the other half didn’t think it was significant. It was a tie, but it was very significant.

Jenn DeWall:

It is challenging to have that. I mean, we know that in leaders and organizations, different points of view, different perspectives and, and how difficult to try and help when you can’t have consensus. I want to back up just to people that might be unfamiliar or less exposed when Zach is saying “comms” – he means the communications industry. So if you would say communications industry in a different way like, would you describe that as more like branding or public relations? How would you describe that to someone that might be outside of that?

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. I mean, that’s good, that’s a good point. And now I’ll remember to be a little bit more descriptive, but so comms— depends on which part- like we at GCM are a full-service agency. So we do everything. So within comms in our purview is public relations. So that could be like media pitching messaging interviews, things like that, or it could be social media. So that could be content, production, design, community management. It could be crisis communications, which was like crisis communications. Also, what would fall under that if a pandemic hits and the CEO of a very large organization needs to inform its employees of a change or something bad happening or something. You know, just like sales are going down or facilities are closing— that’s a crisis as well. I got nothing that it’s not just like, someone’s done something wrong. And then also when we do like report writing and design, all that stuff. So like in, in our world, it’s comms. Some people call that marketing. So we say communications or marketing, depending on where you are. The only thing I would say it’s slightly not is like advertising, but even advertising has a lot to do with comms, but there’s just a little bit more of a specific skillset for advertising because you have to understand kind of like the backend of advertising. Where we’re we’re comms also has branding and workshops and things like that. So if there’s something that needs to be communicated, that’s comms!

Are You Sure It’s a Crisis?

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. Thank you for it. I appreciate that because it gives me a better perspective too. I feel like I can actually observe the true robustness of that industry. So going back to the, how do you recover from a crisis? I like that thinking like, can you even gain consensus on whether or not a crisis is happening? I mean, going back to that conversation because yeah. What, what do you do if someone can’t come to an agreement about the crisis? Then I feel like, what are you doing? Are you either crossing your fingers and hoping it doesn’t actually go up to something else? Or you’re just kind of like, okay, well, we’ll see. I mean, I don’t. What have you seen happen? And we’re going to get into, like, where you need to start. What, so that’s going to be coming up, but I’m curious, like how do they even resolve that? What do you see potentially happen when they can’t reach a consensus?

Zach Giglio:

So, so if, if they truly can’t reach a consensus, depending on who’s calling the final shot, it could very well be that nothing happens. That you’ve had a conversation, you’ve made a recommendation on this is how I would start dealing with this situation. Maybe we should start doing this. Maybe there should be a direct call there, but you know, five or six different things. But the answer at the end of the day could be like, we don’t think this is a crisis, and we don’t want to react to it. Because they might see it as distracting from a bigger picture, which I get that, like, I get that. And that is a very strong balance. Quite honestly, that a crisis communications professional and their team need to need to strike, which is how do you respond to a crisis publicly or even privately in a way that it’s not knocking you completely off of what your entire comms and business strategy is anyway because you don’t want that to happen.

Now, there are some crises that are so great that you actually do need to halt everything and address it. 90, probably 90-99% of all crises, you don’t need to stop your entire business organization and all of your other communications. You just may want. So like, for instance, let’s say like, let’s say you had like a disgruntled employee who was slandering the company saying that things are untrue about like the fabric you used it in your shirts. Like, and they’re going to think it’s a lie. It’s not all this, and it’s actually something. One strategy you could do as a proactive, comms thing is not. You don’t want to directly if it’s not true. I mean, if it’s true, you need to get your stuff together.

But if it’s, if it’s not true, you know, you don’t necessarily want to give credence to the disgruntled employee for spreading lies, but you also have to understand that there’s a possibility that some sort of like a controversial, inflammatory statement on social media could gain steam and you want to get ahead of that. So what should you do? You start creating or at least prioritizing content that shows or verifies the credibility of the fabric and all the quality of the materials that you use in your stuff anyway. So you’re addressing it, but an indirect way that is proactive and prioritizing messages in a different way than like, so that in, in my head, it’s like a reasonable balance. Like, well, it’s obvious that already the shirt in our made-up shirt company, like prioritize it, I think is important about what materials they use and all their products dash what’s the attack. That’s not necessarily so far outside of the realm of what you should be communicating. We’re just saying maybe prioritize that a little bit more now. So that’s, that’s, that’s the balance because you don’t want to throw the entire company in a completely new direction, just because one thing is a bad thing is happening. Although again, depending on how large that crisis is.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I like that answer too, of thinking that brings up even, how do you manage when, so I know in the day of Glassdoor or LinkedIn, where people are able to write reviews of your organization, that can be something that, I guess, from my perspective, I see so many more people using that as a starting point of whether or not they want to invest in your culture. And so, to some extent, if you’re not addressing it, then you may be leaving stuff on the table that could be creating the wrong picture. But we’re going to dive in. I don’t know if you have any comments on how organizations even address that, because it is, how do you determine like, okay, this is one disgruntled employee versus what’s the impact that this is going to have. And you know, and how well are people going to be able to deduce that there could be something missing, right? That you know, that employee could have done X, Y, Z, and then they wrote that comment. Like, you don’t necessarily want to own that. That’s all on them. But how do you even decide at this age where employees can write those reviews? Like, how do you even decide how to address that? Because if they go there negatively, they’re not like, well, I just want to let everyone know. I love this organization. Typically when you have that, they’re not necessarily going there to share the love.

Zach Giglio:

So really good point. And this is where crisis work should begin. It’s way before you have that discount to the employee on Glassdoor, having one of five reviews, that’s a zero star or whatever it is, right? Like, because at that point, whether you like it or not, it matters because if you have no, I mean, I know I have multiple examples of clients that I’ve worked for either through GCM or back in my previous lives, where they’ve come to us saying we had one bad issue come up five years ago, but it’s the only thing people can find online about us. And we’ve l we’re losing contracts because of it. Or we can’t hire because the only two reviews on Glassdoor that are about us are bad, like than does like whether or not you want to believe like those negative reviews have an insane impact because it is the only thing out there.

Zach Giglio:

So the way that proactive communications can help. That is if you start making sure that there are positive, truthful stories out there, whether it’s online reviews, whether it’s news coverage, whether it’s your own content, whether it’s video is there’s already stuff out there. So not if when the negative stuff comes, it is among, ideally, a sea of positive stuff, or at least neutral stuff. Because by the time you get to one out of like five or two out of 10 reviews or really bad, or one out of like ten new stories are really bad. You can’t, and the decision is made. It matters. It’s impacting your business. Because I mean, think about all the times you’ve heard about it, but think about all the times you haven’t heard, someone’s searched you, and they see that. And then they go somewhere else. So if you’re not actively producing positive stories and content, you’re leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to be at the whims of a disgruntled employee or have one bad thing truly happening, which will happen because we’re human, and we make mistakes.

How to Recover from Mistakes

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And they like that. Even from a leadership perspective, that if you’re not holding yourself accountable, to matching your words and actions, or if you’re not showing up in a way that’s productive, right. If you do not own it, taking responsibility for that misstep, then that does the same thing. Whether it’s Glassdoor externally, that’s also happening inside of saying, do I really want to listen to Jenn? She seems to do this. You lose your influence, and you lose your trust. And then, all of a sudden, they might be like, I don’t even want to work with Jenn, and they might leave. And so, you know, I want to just keep bringing it back to that because people might think, oh God, and this is, you know, not necessarily something that has to deal with me, but as leaders, it does even directly related to the communications because these little things, these are happening in also smaller-scale ways just within your team or department. So let’s, let’s dive into it now, Zach, like, how do you even start to recover from that mistake or that past misstep up, you know, whatever is kind of haunting you, where do you start?

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. So it’s a good question. So there’s, I think there are two different things that kind of go together. So on the one hand, you have your very well-tested fundamental block and tackle crisis communications template of like, if there’s a crisis, if something goes wrong, these are the three steps you take, on the other hand, there’s this whole idea of, well, who is your business? And who are you really as an organization? Or who are you really as a leader? And if you can understand that, that reset process that is tried and true becomes way more clear and effective than if you don’t know. And now you’re like employing tactics that are based on a very shaky if any foundation, so I do so. So if we just assume that people have a good understanding of who they are, what their values are, what their principles are.

And we can talk about how we can get to that in a second. But let me just give, like the really tried and true crisis comm like a three-step program, basically. So you’ve done so crisis habit, you’ve made a mistake, let’s say in this scenario, the mistake is true. You actually did make a mistake. You forgot to pay your taxes on the new extension on your house, or you said something really inappropriate to somebody, or you made whatever, there are three things. You do, one you admit and own the mistake. Like don’t admit and own things that you didn’t do that you’re not responsible for, but as much as you possibly can admit the mistake. The second thing you do is you talk about what action or actions have you, are you taking to fix that mistake, those specific things you need to say what’s being done to either have already fixed it or fixing it.

And then number three, people want to know, okay, fine. But what about the future? Now you have to talk about what things you’re doing in addition to what you’ve already done that will prevent something like this from happening again in the future. And the problem with this is if you don’t have this understanding- first of all, like if you’re not genuine and like, you’re not actually doing things to fix it, like don’t fix it, just own it and be like, yeah, this is a mistake. And I’m going to keep making this mistake. Like, just say that. But if you’re somebody who actually wants to fix it, you need to really understand who you are and what you actually want to fix. Because the problem that we see happening all the time is they take that very tried and true template, which I’m sure you could Google on fine and they just like put it over a shaky foundation and a lack of understanding of who you are as an organization of who you are as a leader, and it rings completely untrue. Or you’re actually saying things that are disingenuous, to what you actually mean and what you actually want to. Correct. And you’re doing, and you could be doing one or two, one of two things. One, you could be making the people who were upset already more upset or two, you could be betraying your own identity and making the people who were upset actually about this crisis. Now they’re upset because you’ve betrayed them. So it’s really important to have a solid understanding of your identity before you get into a crisis. So you can put together a good plan.

The Importance of Owning Who You Are and What Has Happened

Jenn DeWall:

And I think it’s, that’s, you have to own it to control it. Who are you as a leader? Who are you as a team? Where are you as an organization? And are you in alignment with that? And starting with owning it. And I think you, you hit the nail on the head because how can you confidently even communicate something if you don’t know who you are, if you are a leader, for example, that wants to leave maybe a little bit more, you know, do, as I say, not as I do then apologizing for not being inclusive might actually feel really awkward because the people might be like, why would you do that? That’s not, and we know you’re not that. And so I like that example because a lot of times people just, and this is a challenge with, with everything, right? We try to be everything to everyone.

And if we don’t know who we are, then we absolutely could be either alienating the people that love us or bringing them on and, you know, bringing new people that may not enjoy us. And so I really appreciate you talking about, you have to know who you are, to be able to know what you’re going to stand for, what you’re going to fall for, and how you’re going to manage it. And you had said, you have to own it. Then you have to describe what you’re doing. I have a feeling I actually would be more curious. What part of the process do you think people miss more? Is it that they don’t know who they are? Is it that they just think that, well, I know who I am, but I don’t have to explain to you what I’m going to do. Like where, where do you think people fail in that process?

Zach Giglio:

So I think there are two. I find two things that happen. One people aren’t willing to admit their mistakes. So people have a really hard time actually owning where they faltered. Because they have, they’ve been told that they had this idea that they have to show strength, which means never being wrong. But actually, we know, and I think there’s an increasing appreciation from the market of vulnerability, actually being a true sign of strength. I can remember. I think it was Jay Z talking about it at his rock and roll hall of fame acceptance speech over the weekend. I think that’s what he was talking about, too, is how like he’s come to realize that being vulnerable this is, I can get into rap tangents all day long, but he’s his 4 44 album where he was really open and honest and vulnerable. People see it as his strongest album. It is the most he’s ever shown strength. And there’s this. I bring it up because this is even in pop culture. There is this big, this larger appreciation for being vulnerable. But I think people were once told that being vulnerable shows weakness. So people don’t wanna admit a mistake. They don’t want to say, Nah, this, this was wrong. I could have done something different- they don’t want to.

Don’t Apologize for Who You Are

Zach Giglio:

So that’s, that’s one, but then there are the people who think that they should be admitting to it, like saying, sorry for everything. And that they’re going to do, like, to your point about like, I’m going to try to be way more inclusive. Even though like in my, in my like management style or in my leadership style, I’m like get in line or get off. Yeah. And now if I’m, if someone has been unhappy about that and now I’m apologizing for who I am and now saying, oh, and in the future, I’m going to wait, be way more inclusive. What about all the people who are in line and who’re ready to stay on for a long time. Now they’re looking up, saying, but this is why we love you. This is why we’re here. And now you’re telling me that you’re not going to do this anymore. So I think it’s like the two, the two swings of the pendulum. It’s like people aren’t willing to actually have any ownership. Or they try to own way too much. It’s beyond their control and has nothing to do with who they are. And they make amends for things that, like, shouldn’t be made amends. But like whoever you are, the one example I think illustrates, sits really beautifully is I think they’ve fallen a bit from ike consumer grace, but it was Southwest airlines for like years was the, was one of the top 10 brands in America, which is the most unbelievable feat and airline company can do.

Like, nobody likes flying. Nobody likes flying. The planes are so small. You can never even get your bag in the overhead and hate to check it. There’s increasing turbulence. It’s like, nobody likes flying. And yet Southwest is somehow one of the top 10, most loved brands in America for like years in a row. I don’t think they are at this moment. But during this time they had, they had decided that they were going to bring light into traveling because it’s about having a good time. And like, and really travel is like, no, one’s like on a plane. Most people don’t go on a plane to go somewhere that they hate being. They are on vacation. You wanna visit family. Like, there’s always somewhere you are going. So they wanted to be a part of this experience and decided, like, let’s have fun. And so during the safety demonstration, they were making light about, they were making jokes and all of this.

And I remember I remember it happening and being like, I’m actually paying attention to this stuff, you know, like, and they got a letter from this lady who had had like a son or like a child on the plane or something like that. And they got a letter that went to the CEO and CEO she saw, and it said basically like, I don’t appreciate you making light of a very serious thing. Like I’m a nervous flyer. My child’s protection should come first. I wish you and your organization would take, you know, safety on airlines more seriously, something to that effect. And the CEO actually responded with four words. We will miss you. He wasn’t going to apologize to her. He wasn’t going to say, and this is not who we are because he understood who they were as an organization. And he wasn’t being mean, he said, we will miss you. Like, I’m sorry, like ways to communicate – we’re sorry it is not working out for you, but we can’t betray who we are and what we’re trying to do for people because you’re not happy with us.

Zach Giglio:

And it’s to your point, Jenn, about like, not trying to be everything for everybody. And like, if that is the real key, whether you’re a leader, like a CEO at that time, or you’re an organization that’s like, that could have been a crisis. I mean, imagine if they handle that wrong, and they’re like, oh, I’m so sorry, we’ll take it more seriously. Now all the people like me who were enjoying. And I, by the way, I used to get very nervous black, who was enjoying that levity to break up the tension I felt. And now I’m going to be like. You’re betraying me now. And so it was strong, and they kept their standing as a loved brand for a long time.

Not Everyone Will Like You, and That’s Fine

Jenn DeWall:

I just think that’s a powerful example of why you can’t and even bringing it back to leadership. Like you can not be everything to everyone. And that’s why you have to know who you are because as much as I even wish that every single person listening to this podcast is like, wow, this is such a great thing. They’re not, right? That’s the reality. Like, I want that, of course, but I can’t also be everything to everyone. And there’s the next person that can do that. And like, that’s okay. Because I think in terms of, you know, bringing it back to human connection, the more that we try to pretend that we’re everything to everyone, the lack of real connection, you know, there’s nothing that to go off of because I’m just like making myself a mold of whatever you want to see.

And then how do you even build trust? Because you’re not being consistent, or someone might think, oh, Jenn, like, you know, for me, most people probably know. I like to joke around a lot. I’m not probably your traditional leader. I would call myself maybe a corporate misfit because I just didn’t get the role. Like I can’t pretend that I’m that anymore. I can’t pretend that like I was that. And as much as I wish I could be someone that looks like they have it all together or someone that withholds XYZ. It’s not like that’s just who I am. I will totally fall walking up a set of stairs. I will do X, Y, Z. Like, that’s who I am. I can’t even pretend that I’m much more put together, like, you know, in that perfect package. Right. That’s sometimes people try to portrait because it’s just, it’s too hard, and it’s not true.

I will sometimes like, you know, I, I could give funnier examples, like sweat onstage, because I wear something too heavy or like do whatever, you know, that’s just who I am. Like, I can’t pretend that I’m always going to be some level of perfection that everyone’s going to love. I can also be a human, and then people can find more of that relatability.

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Authentic Leadership Prepares You for Crisis

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s talk about how do you build a solid foundation? Like how do you start to really know who you are? I know that’s one of the things that we talked about in the call was you gave the example of the house. So how can you start to find out who you are as an organization, a team or a leader?

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. And, and just to your, just one quick point about, you know, you being true to who you are. I think I think you can’t be everything to everybody, but I also think by you being authentic, the way that you are, you actually providing a service to people because you’re allowing them to make a choice about you and about what you do. So like by being who you are in this podcast, you’re allowing people to make a quick and real choice about, is this podcast for me or not, is Jenn for me or not? Is Zach for me or not? Like that’s a service to people because we’re all very busy, and we are all tired of getting tricked and getting networked on and all that stuff. Right? Like if I want to use the heck of that, just give me the option to make a choice.

Just like, that’s all I want. Like I’m a human being, respect me, give me the option to make a choice. And by you being as authentic as you are, there’s something that I try to be like, I think like, quite honestly, like my biggest struggle was trying to be too many things, too many people. It’s something I’m really working on, but I know that it’s worth working on because that is like the ultimate service to other people is like allowing them to make a choice. And, and not only that, I mean, what did we talk about now is like, you’re, you’re building this foundation that you can alter, you can pivot, you can respond from a crisis because your foundation is set and you know who you are. So I just wanted to bring that point up before we get into the. I think it’s amazing. I think I think everybody should aspire to be that way.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and I think, you know, I know we went on a tangent, but that is something I will say, even within the world of coaching, I’m a coach. This is what I always say because I am not a seller. I’m just not. That’s just not my jam in terms of deliberately selling to people. Because I think when you’re are trying to network on someone, then you’re not giving them a choice. You’re kind of trying to push them into a corner of saying, pick me or, you know, pick me. And so I think one of the expressions I like to say is like finding a coach is like finding a pair of jeans. You have to try on a few to find the one that’s going to help you best flaunt your assets. Like, I’m not going to give you the hard sell because coaching itself as a service is very intimate. There’s a lot of trust that needs to be there. And if you can’t connect in that way, that’s okay. There is absolutely someone else there that you are going to connect with, but I never want to become, and this is my other closing phrase. I’m like, I never want to be your gym membership. You have got to choose me. I am not this person. That’s really great. And then all of a sudden, you’re like, well, I signed up, do I get all the rewards? No! You always have a choice, but you have to work on it. Oh my gosh. I just, I love talking with you in this perspective, in the world where there is so much of a brand and that content-heavy, pushy experience that I think is still, you know, has a lot of room of opportunity of how do we actually give people a choice instead of kind of like forcing them into a corner to either like us, you know, maybe the choice is like us or hate us, but feeling like the only option is to like you. And if they don’t like you, how much money are you going to spend, trying to make one person like you, or the next person like you and you don’t know who you are, and that’s sorry, that was my tangent.

Zach Giglio:

That’s great. But you know, I, I honestly, like, I feel like we’ve just been told for so long and conditioned to think that we have to sell our products and services. That’s what people buy, but I know that that’s not the case. And it sounds like you know that too. Like, it’s like you walk into a thing. Hey, what do you do? Or what’s your mission statement? What’s your elevator pitch. It’s like what I do and my mission in my life, that’s important. But like, if you only know that, you know, nothing, you know, nothing that you need to know to make a real decision, particularly with coaching, but like, we’ve talked about like this trust and like us, you know, we have large clients in long contracts. Like we don’t, we’re not selling, you know, a, a coffee mug, right. And even could even bet this applies, but like we, we’re not doing a quick transaction where we were. What we’re talking about is building the long, sustainable, trustworthy relationship that is truly better than the sum of its parts. And that requires trust. That requires an understanding of who each other are. But like, you still walk into all these things like, Hey, what do you do? And I’m like, and this is not, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna accomplish anything. Like, you know, and now like, I’ve, I’ve gotten, you know, I’m at least not comfortable enough to the point where like I just took the conversation to a whole different direction and if they want to stick around great. But if they don’t like it, great, good for you. Like you are again, trying to give them that choice.

Building a Solid Foundation to Prepare for Crisis

Zach Giglio:

But you know, going back to this foundation, like, so your, your identity as an organization or as a leader like that is your foundation is not to say, like, if you think about a house, your foundation doesn’t change like your foundation is very, very strong. It’s built solid. And on top of your foundation, you can build your house. But once you build your house, you can renovate it. You can add to it. You can change the rooms, and you can change the floors, you can do all that stuff because you have a solid foundation, like sure, it’s going to take time and effort to make those changes. And you should do it in a way that it’s smart and logical and makes sense for the whole thing. But like, your foundation is solid. So like you can do that. Rather if you have a rocky foundation, every time you try to make a change on your house like you need to also service that foundation. And now you’re in trouble, and you’re spending a lot more time, a lot more effort trying to make any type of alteration or change. But how about a crisis?

You have your foundation, and the storm comes, knocks your house down while your foundation is still there. So you just rebuild back on top of your foundation because your foundation doesn’t change. Your house does, the look of it may be, but your foundation does. And that’s how we think about your identity as the foundation of your organization, as a foundation of you as a leader. But how do you understand what your, what your identity is? And so I talked a little bit about how we’re hardwired because of years of like this thing, and like, what’s your why and all this stuff, like it all sounds good, but like, it’s not real. And we’re hardwired to talk and behave in this way. And so when we do these workshops with organizations or with, or, or the thought leaders that will help create platforms and stuff for them, we have to like actively intervene in their brain with an exercise, to separate their identity from what they do. Because we do want to build what they do back on top of their identity, but to understand who you are, that needs to be separated.

So here’s something that anybody can do. So if you’re, if you’re an organization or if you are you’re, you are not an organization, but if you are one person within an organization. Or if you’re a leader, you have to imagine yourself- flip a switch. You need to imagine yourself as in a completely different profession, or if you’re an organization in a completely different industry. So, for instance, if we were doing this with a t-shirt producer, they make, they make t-shirts really quotations, whatever we would now make them like a psychiatrist or like a counseling center, like something completely like, so we put the switch. Now, this is what you do. And this is who you are. You need to tell me why anybody would come in and want to work with you, buy from you, trust you?

Jenn DeWall:

Why would they? I just made a shirt?

Your Identity Is Not the Same as Your Profession, Product or Services

Zach Giglio:

But that’s the perfect response because like, that’s so like, so, I mean, we literally just a couple of weeks ago, we did this with this like consulting company, and we made them a bakeshop. So you’re a bakery now. And at first, they were like, no flip the switch. And they started saying about what that’s like, no, no, no, no, no. You’re now a bakeshop. Why, why is anybody going to come in? And they started talking about how they would reinvent the chocolate chip cookie. And how they would- rather than somebody walking in and being like I want a chocolate chip cookie, they would say but, do you? Tell me what you are seeking from this chocolate chip cookie? And they would think out this whole thing. And they’re like, so what we would rather do is get to know this person and what they truly want or what they’re after, and then design a cookie. Now it might be your choice, but we’re going to design a cookie that is going to exceed what they ever thought they were going to get when they walk into this bakeshop. And I was like, there it is. That’s your identity. That’s who you are. It has nothing to do with your profession or anything you do. So they were talking about relationships. It’s about trust. It’s about being innovative, reinventing things, like also not accepting the status quo, like that’s who they are as an organization. When I, when I’m on like pitch calls, like getting to know people, I said like, we, if we were a landscaping company, we’d be the same company. We would just be cutting your lawn. Like everything about us would be the same. We would just be providing a different service. And, and it’s, it’s again, it’s a way to intentionally intervene in the hard wiring to separate who we are from what our actions are.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And I love, I, you know, I think that’s a great example of an exercise that you could do is see yourself in a different perspective. What are you trying to achieve? You know, that connection. If I think about the cookie shop, you know, I think about replicating this nostalgia or this experience of love and support. Like, I feel like I’m safe when I’m there, right? It’s just from the, maybe the aromas or just the conversations and how people see me and greet me when I walk in. I love that it’s getting people to really think at a much more meaningful level. Obviously, that’s your goal. We’re forging human connections, but too many people, I think, forget about the human connection piece. You’re just like, what do you mean? Don’t they like this? They can’t see all the great ways you haven’t given me an opportunity to even embrace or interact with it, to actually see how I could like it and why I would want it.

Zach Giglio:

But that’s an amazing point about what your bakeshop would be like. It would be, you know, what someones could be. It could be about comfort. It could be, had nothing to do with actually with the cookies or whatever. It could just be about the experience, the feeling of relaxation. Ooh, there you are. Actually, you are right like that, that will review not what is in your mission statement? What is your elevator pitch? And then, like, I get the function of an elevator pitch. Like I get it like it is forcing you to nail down the core of your service and why you think it benefits somebody else. Like that is extremely useful, but it should not be in place of understanding who you are and the human connection. Like that is only like, well, down the road, you can, your purpose. People are like, well, what should we do about this? What should we say about that? It’s like, well, does this have anything to do with who you are as an organization or as a leader? Oh, it does. Well, how does it do that? Well, then that’s what you say. Not like purpose finding where it’s like, well, we need to have a purpose. Everybody’s got one. I need to have one. Like, and so what’s trending right now. Like in, you’ll get in trouble, you’ll get in trouble by doing that.

Jenn DeWall:

I think it’s, you know, the elevator pitch is important too. Again, going back to the brand because I think there are, we all know that we’re in a networking situation or maybe just meeting new coworkers for the first time. And we can tell when someone is just giving us their pitch versus actually like whether or not they care about us. And there are a lot of people that have spent a lot of time maybe crafting these compelling elevator pitches. And so then I know of those networking meetings, like, oh, mine doesn’t sound like that. Absolutely not. Because I just haven’t thought about it in that way. And I also still feel uncomfortable with like that, just that pushing, like, I want you to see me in this like aspirational, amazing light. Right. Cause I think there’s a level of when it’s so rehearsed, you miss the fact of like we’re humans, and no one really cares about how pretty you said that. I feel like it’s more of that billboard that you’ll forget about when you drive by. And you’re like, oh, that was a really cool billboard. But like, I don’t, you know, I’m not going to buy the service, but that was cool when I saw it.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. One hundred percent. I, a hundred percent, agree with that. Like somebody that’s going to go ask me what, like, they literally said the words, what is your, what is your elevator pitch? Like, I don’t have one. I don’t have one. And I’m like, I’m not going. Like, I just don’t have, like, this is not something that I work for or where are a communications agency. And we do not, we purposely do not have an elevator pitch, and we have great, and we have great clients, and we’re growing, and everything’s working out well. Like we don’t have an elevator pitch. I’ve never, I’ve never heard of a good organization or good leader not getting where they want to be because they don’t have a strong elevator pitch. Again, there’s a function for an elevator pitch. That is a wonderful tool to help you like simplify what you’re doing. Because I also believe like the more you define something, the less you actually define it. Right? Like, so you need to actually be poignant with your language and, like, say what you mean. So I, I liked that function, but it, it it’s, it should not be misunderstood. I think that if any representation of who I am or what my business is that elevate if it is, it’s just not.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I think it’s important. It’s an important distinction, and yeah, there’s absolutely a place and a need for elevator pitches that I feel like it does so much more for us as an individual to step into our value and see what we’re trying to accomplish. But you know, the more that we make it again about us, the last that we might be actually seeing that person. So one last thing that I want to talk about because I know that we’re going a bit over, but like, how do you rebuild trust when it’s broken? So like one important thing you had said is that we have to obviously know like our values, who we are and what makes us tick. What if we do it wrong, Zach? What happens? Like how do we rebuild it once it’s broken? I know you gave us the three steps. Like, would that be kind of, the prescription is like, you have to first like, own it. Talk about what you’re going to do now. And then talk about how you’re going to move forward into the future. Or is there something else you would add to that too?

Communicating in a Crisis – Own It, Explain What Happens Now, and What Happens Next

Zach Giglio:

So I think, I think that is like I said before, I think those things are like, that’s the technique. But the underlying foundation really should be a strong understanding of who you are. So it’s like, not even like I lied, so something’s simple like I lied to YOU, and I’ve lost your trust. And now I want to rebuild it with you. I need to understand a little bit deeper. Like I can just go to like, I’m sorry, I lied. I am going to double-check what I say before I say it to make sure it’s not a lie, and going forward, I’m going to go to counseling, so I can stop lying so much. Like if I said that to you, you’d be like, okay, I can’t, you know, like it has to be way more meaningful than that. Like I would have to say to you like, look, this is I, I messed up. Like, this is why I lied. This is what I was trying to get at. This is why I know it impacted you more than perhaps another lie. That’s like an understanding of who I am. Like that’s trying to get through a little bit more deeply.

So just to say quickly, because there are people right now who are in this situation and, and we all get in these situations. If you have built, whether you’re an organization or a leader, if you build meaningful relationships based on human connection and your identity, you will have a lot more for forgiving in your world and your network that matters than you will if you’ve only ever had a transactional based relationship. So if you’re like, if you’re just, transaction-based like, there would be very little forgiveness, but if you’re, if you’re on the human level, like you said, like, and you get to know the person who to trust the person when you’re waiting as I can think of mistakes. And like the people that I think are the most important than the world that I’ve lost their trust or

Jenn DeWall:

Oh yeah, think of it like, even as a human being, I know that in my twenties, I had what I would call not nice responses. I was a high over-achiever somehow expected that everyone would perform in a certain way that I did it. Like, I’ll put it that way. There are other leaders like that. Like if you do that and you are not kind in your communications, or you’re condescending, right. That’s one that we can all relate to. Like, what do you do when you’re condescending? And you can sense that people are like, you know, that’s, I’ll give you that example. Cause I’ve been that person. I hope that I’m not today. I hope that people can say that because I try really hard to see that person, but I know that I’ve been there.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it gets a real thing, but as these people know me as a human, they know me, they know me, and they’re willing to, they were willing to forgive it. I mean, if I think about like, so like our, so we have one of our bigger clients. Like we, we love them. And I think that they really appreciate us as humans. Like we got on the phone, we talked to them about life. Like, you know, we’re not, it’s just, it’s not transaction-based. We do certainly do transactions, but like, it’s not what our relationship is based on. And last, last month we had a really big deliverable that I had only found out, and this was partly my fault, I mismanaged it. The day before that, we weren’t going to be able to deliver it the day that we were supposed to deliver it. This massive mistake. And they forgave us almost immediately. And we’re like, okay, this isn’t great. But like this new date works for us. And I told them why? I said this is what the mistake was. This is what we’re doing. I’m going to make sure it doesn’t happen again because this is what we’re bringing in, and blah, blah, blah. And it was all real and genuine where I owned what the mistake was. And they almost immediately forgave us, and they appreciated it because we already have that relationship with them. They already know us for who we are now.

Gosh, some people might be saying, okay, well, I have never operated an identity-based organization, or I never operated as an identity-based leader before, what do I do? Well, something that I’ve learned in counseling, which is a really wonderful, like, like superpower tool, is there will always be situations where we do not act the way we wish we did. But that doesn’t mean going forward. That that is the only way, we’ll ever act again. And so there’s no time except now for you to decide that I need to understand who I am so I can better operate in situations the way that I want to understand that I will make a mistake one time, but I need to start setting this foundation so that when this happens again, I’m in a much better position than I am right now.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And I think the last one that I even hear from that from leaders, like when you can practice vulnerability, when you can own your mistakes, when you can also share what you’re doing, people are so much more flexible with allowing you to be human because you’re also saying I make mistakes. So then you’re telling them, I know that you will, you’re a human being as well, but this is how I want you to show up when we make a mistake so that we can figure out what to do. And I think there’s so much power there because people might be guided by, like, well, what happens if I make a mistake? Oh my gosh, I don’t want to make a mistake. You know, a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome- being found out. Own it. Like it’s, it’s, you know, it’s so simple.

If you want to rebuild trust, if you want to do that, show them that you’re human. Especially if you’re a leader, like the less than you can express that side, or you pretend that you don’t make these mistakes. The more that people are, like, I don’t want to work here because I feel like I have to burn the midnight oil just to try and be perfect. And it’s not sustainable. So I’m burned out. Or two, like, I don’t know if I trust that you support me as just an individual that is, has flaws will make mistakes. All right. Breathing, which means that we’re, we’re going to make a misstep somehow. And even though we’ll try so hard, but all you have to do is own it, just own it. I mean, so many times I like it, and then it becomes comical when a leader doesn’t own it. I feel like that then goes into the meeting after the meeting where they’re like, yeah, did you see how they didn’t actually own that at all? That was really awkward because we all know what’s going on, but then they didn’t own it. And it’s just kind of becomes a, well, what do we do with that?

We Can Learn More From Failure Than Success

Zach Giglio:

It’s really like, and it’s really like the truest thing. It’s like the truest advice you could ever give someone, what you just said. Like, own who you are. Own it. And piggybacking on that, it’s like, it’s so easy to lead people when things are going well. And it’s really easy to lead people when things are going well for you, personally. It’s easy. You’re like a superstar, you’re a rockstar, and I’m the boss, blah, blah, blah. But the best moments for leadership and learning or the challenges like it’s so cliché, but like, there’s so much more to be learned in failure than there is in success. And to your point, it is really a strong example of showing people how to behave and how to show up or how to respond the time that is the hardest to show up and respond. And you’re like, and there are no more valuable lessons to teach somebody than that.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Zach, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I know I want to ask the final question, which is how they can get in touch with you? But before I do that, do you feel like there’s anything else that maybe I’ve missed in terms of what you wanted to share about managing a crisis?

Zach Giglio:

No. I think we covered it. I also shudder because I feel like we could go on and on, and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I love where you take the conversation. I really think you have such an interesting insight and curiosity about these topics. And I love talking about this stuff, but there are not enough people out there who see the world the way you see it. And so I really appreciate the conversation. I think I think you’ve kind of nailed it. You’ve put a fine point on it. Like own it, fix it, fix what you should be fixing. Don’t fix what you shouldn’t be. Apologize when you should be apologizing. Do not apologize because you think it’s the right thing to do. And you don’t feel it in your heart. And you haven’t if you haven’t operated on your identity now, like, just start now, because way down the road, you’ll be in a better situation. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

Zach, right back at you, I’ve loved our conversation, loved our pre-call. And I just love what you’re doing to help people again, have more of those human-centered connections, the work with GCM. I think it’s so important. And I guess I just see that in a world where we want to be seen and heard more than ever. It’s just so important that we forge those genuine connections. Zach, how do people get in touch with GCM? How can they connect with you?

Where to Find Zach Giglio

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. I appreciate that. So it’s whoisgcm.com. We’re constantly asking ourselves, who are we? Because we w we don’t want to forget that that’s the most important thing. So our website, whoisgcm.com, and I’m on LinkedIn, it’s like, it’s, I think it’s like linkedin.com/in/zachgigliopr/ and quite responsive, particularly if you’re reaching out saying like, Hey, just want to get to know. You want to learn a little bit about yourself. You will get a response.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I love that. Zach, thank you so much for just taking your time to sit down with me today to share with our audience how they can recover from a crisis. I’ve really, I genuinely have loved our conversation, and I, I truly hope people have found value, or at least maybe permission to just show up a little bit more authentically. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Zach Giglio:

Thank you, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

You so much for tuning into this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation with Zach or, you know, someone that could benefit from how to recover from a crisis, share this podcast episode with them. You can find him at whoisgcm.com, and you can also connect with him on LinkedIn. If you’re looking to develop your leadership skills, or you want your team to up that level, reach out to us, head on over to Crestcom.com. There you can sign up for a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop. We will come in and help you and your team come together to produce great results.

 

The post How to Recover from a Crisis with Communications Expert Zach Giglio appeared first on Crestcom International.

In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn DeWall welcomes Gerardo Segat, an international leadership coach, to discuss the pressing issue of overcoming the common fears that hold us back as leaders. Gerardo is on a mission to humanize leaders and organizations. As leaders, we tend to put on certain masks and try to hide our insecurities. 

However, fear-based leadership can result in harmful behavior like judging, blaming, ignoring, destroying, and attacking, which can significantly impact our leadership effectiveness. Gerardo calls this “destructive leadership” and has made it his life’s work to help people overcome fear and engage in “constructive leadership” instead!

Meet Gerardo Segat, International Leadership Coach

Gerardo Segat is an international leadership coach whose purpose and legacy are to humanize leadership. Following a wealth of experiences as an entrepreneur, chairman and CEO, Gerardo has used his leadership background to create Preludes–  a coaching program created to humanize leaders, organizations, and their stakeholders through creative and powerful original experiences such as decision-making debates, client interaction models, and emotions-focused team meetings.

Gerardo is also the creator of Vebate, a format of decision-making debate, Leader in the Mirror, a format of interview, and Leaderness, a post-graduate training program. For the past decade, he has been a member of the YPO, or Young Presidents’ Organization (the world’s largest community of leaders and CEOs), of which he has been the founder and chair of three chapters in Italy, Switzerland, and globally.

Currently, Gerardo is working on Out As Humans, a performing arts show designed to humanize authentic leaders. Out as Humans is an immersive performance for individuals and groups that creates a space for leaders to be open, trusting, empathetic, and feel a sense of belonging.

Facing Your Fears as a Leader

In the episode, Jenn and Gerardo discuss how fears and our fear responses are hardwired into human nature. As humans, we are programmed to feel fear in order to survive. However, in today’s world, we aren’t facing dangerous natural predators in nature, so our fear responses must evolve. 

Jenn notes, “Sometimes we don’t realize that it’s almost primal to have fear. It’s a natural reaction to our surroundings. But sometimes, the fear actually doesn’t need to be there. And you don’t need it. I don’t want to say you’re manufacturing the fear, but it’s not as life-threatening as you might initially perceive it to be. You know, our relationship with fear is that sometimes we need to actually move it aside. We’re going to survive either way.”

Gerardo agrees, “Yes. And it is mainly because we think we are our minds, but the reality is we have a mind. We’re not our minds. And therefore, you know, a mind is like an arm, a leg, you know, instead, we tend to think that we are our mind, and therefore we’re unable to detach ourselves from, you know, fears, feelings, et cetera.”

The 4 Ultimate Fears 

Later in the episode, Gerardo explains that there are 4 ultimate fears that can drive our behavior as humans and as leaders: 

• We fear a lack of meaning in our lives. 
• We fear loneliness. 
• We fear dependence on others. 
• We fear uncertainty.

These hardwired fears can cloud our judgment, and without self-awareness, we might be leading with fear instead of intention.

Confronting Your Fears to Become a Better Leader

Jenn asks Gerardo, “How do we actually overcome these ultimate fears and find that treasure that’s on the other side? Where do you start? I know that you talked about, you know, really first examining, building that self-awareness. The why. Why do we act the way that we do, but where do we go from there?”

Gerardo explains, “Well, on one side, you need to pursue them. Okay? So set an objective to find inner meaning. To find inner love, if you just stay still and say, okay, my objective is inner love, and you go out in the world, and you see that the decisions you make will be completely different, completely different. Set yourself inner objectives that create an opportunity to build, to start.  

Start by building self-awareness and then actually accepting that and then analyzing what the consequences are. I have been remedying those consequences. Look at what solutions are there and change. Make the change and take a different path and different action. So the first one is really to set those objectives.”

Then, Gerardo explains more about his work and how it allows leaders to be vulnerable and share their own fragility to overcome their fears and embrace authenticity. 

Where to Find More From Gerardo Segat

Be sure to listen to the full episode to get more strategies and insights from Gerardo Segat. Then, if you want more information about Gerardo and his work, you can connect with him: 

• Connect on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/gerardosegat
• Visit his website: gerardosegat.com

Thank you for listening to The Leadership Habit Podcast! We’d love to show you how Crestcom can help your managers develop the leadership skills they need! Request a free two-hour leadership skills workshop for your team today!

The post Overcoming Common Fears as Leaders with Gerardo Segat appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to be an Effective Leader In Your Life with Barbara Dalle Pezze

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we are talking about how to be an effective leader. And joining me in that conversation is Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze is an internationally recognized leadership coach, life, strategist, facilitator, and author distinguished by her capacity to inspire and empower and by her unique ability to connect and tune in with people from highly diverse cultures, ages and backgrounds. Join us as we talk about what you can do to be an effective leader.

Meet Barbara Dalle Pezze, Global Leadership Coach and Facilitator

Jenn DeWall:

Hi Barbara, it’s so great to have you on The Leadership Habit podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I am really looking forward to our conversation today to kind of tap into your expertise on how we can be effective leaders. Thank you so much for joining us. Barbara, tell us about what your journey was like. What does your path look like to bring you to where you are today? How did you become interested in leadership development and helping people thrive in that space?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think that has always been a passion of mine. And when I say these, I’m in that, since I was in my twenties, I always had a passion for people. And somehow, I love to see the potential in people and help them express it. And it was quite natural for me. And I had lots of my friends at the time that would, they would just come to me, and they would call me the wise one because it would come to me for advice. And then, later in life, I discovered that actually, there is a profession where you can connect with people and help them evolve and help them express their potential fully. And so I thought you know what, I think that that’s, that’s actually good. And I would like to try it. Having said that, it was not so straightforward, the path.

The path was going through working in academia went through doing facilitation and training, and corporations. And eventually, it was the focus on the coaching side and the leadership development and the leadership development because I realized that actually do have an impact. We do need to develop leadership, our own and others’ leadership. And when I say leadership, however, I don’t mean just leadership in corporations and in organizations, but also leadership in life. Because I have always wondered what happened if on earth we have the millions of people who are feeling leaders that are leaders and they walk their path and they are in their life feeling that they are impactful leaders, not necessarily because they are in corporations but in their life. I think that we would have a very different world actually. So that’s what I, that is what I was passionate about. And that’s what I have been pursuing a career in.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and it’s so important. I love that leadership is not something that is just, you know, the expectation of maybe a corporate professional. It’s hopefully an expectation of all of us in a community and how we show up in our families or in our relationships. And I like that you bring that distinction up because a lot of people think that leadership is just when you walk into the door, that’s when leadership begins and then when you leave for the day, but we don’t have to think about those things. Whereas there’s such a great cross-over if people learned, for example, how to resolve conflict, whether it’s at work or at the relationship or with their relationships, they could cross over and use that, or how to influence or how to communicate effectively. Everything has that cross-over. Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And, and, and, and leaders of ourselves as well. Right? First of all, because in order to influence and impact whatever environment we are in, we need to be able to, I say, influence our self first and actually know ourselves and be the best we can be. So, first of all, he’s doing the work to become the best human being we can possibly be.

The Unexpected Gift – A Book by Barbara Dalle Pezze

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, it is because we have a short life to live, and we have to maximize our impact or our fulfillment in it proper. Before we jump into that facade, I want to talk a little bit about your book, The Unexpected Gift. What inspired you to write that?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Actually, I love this question. The unexpected gift is a memoir of my personal story, which is a leadership story because it is the story of how I found my identity and rebuilt my life after the implosion of my marriage that happened out of the blue. And it happened while I was living abroad and building my career being in between countries and therefore experiencing life in different cultures. So I decided to write the book because at the time everything happened, I was by myself, I was in a foreign country, and I was building my personal life and my career. And I couldn’t find any book or anybody that could tell me that what I was going through that was very painful and very harsh at the time would have had a happy ending.

It would have been good eventually. And what I was living, it was so shocking and so traumatic. And I had to figure out how to go through those moments. And because I love books, I’ve always looked in books for some suggestions and bits of help and mentorships, and I couldn’t find any. And so I decided that I wanted to, I would have eventually taken the time to write about it. And so, eventually, I did. And the way I did it, I also remember that when those very difficult moments were happening, I had such a lucidity. My mind was so clear, and there was such transparency in what was going on that there were insights that normally I would not have about life, about people, about how we feel, how we think. And so I decided in the midst of pain to write those insights somewhere I had always said a piece of paper with me, a tiny little booklet.

And so I would write all these insights because I knew that once the pain was gone, that clarity would have gone too. And so I did, and I did it for, for a long time. And eventually, when the time was right and when the life showed the ending of the story, then I could put everything together, and I decided to write a book. And now it is my contribution for people that go through traumatic experiences that want to be, and they want to know. And I want to tell them from the future that it is going to be all right, that it’s going to be fine no matter what they think or feel at the moment because that was my experience. And I share what I went through and how it is now from the future. And I think that that’s a great contribution, and it is also a way to help people going through a process of healing. And it also is for those people that are next to people who suffer a lot, because often we do not know how to deal with the pain of others. And so, yeah, I wanted to give this contribution because I’m sure it is not for everyone, but for those who go through very difficult and painful situations, I think it is a good hand at least this is what I was looking for. So that’s why I wrote it.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you wrote a book just to give people hope and hopefully help them inspire their journey of clarity that even though they might feel at the bottom, or just wrapped up in pain and the trauma of an experience, that there is a way out that there is, you know, there will be clarity, time will pass, and they will come out better. On the other side, I think it’s so important. And I think it’s important to talk about it on this podcast, too, because, again, leadership is not just something that we do at work. Leadership is how we live our lives and how we essentially manage situations, overcome obstacles and adversity, and come out on the other side to truly maximize the experience that we have in our short time here. So thank you for writing that book, but Barbara, I guess my last question about it is if we took out one nugget from the book, what’s one important piece from the book that you are, or that you wanted to share with the readers?

The Importance of Role Models for Healing

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Well, given that well, I love it all actually– given that these days, I am speaking a lot about role models and mentors. I would like to take that little piece from the book. There was a chapter where I spoke about unexpected mentors, and it is very beautiful, I think because although I’ve been blessed with the many people on many amazing friends and family that love me when I went through that experience, my friends and the people around me did not have the experience of the depth of pain I was going through. And so, even if they loved me a lot and they were there for me again, they could not support me, in the sense of how do I go about to move forward? And I found unexpected mentors in people that went through the atrocity of the second world war. Survivors of concentration camps, experiences, and they wrote about it, and they wrote their, this, their story in books.

And so I started reading their stories, and I wanted to find in an, and I was looking in their books to find, how did they go through that? And what did they leverage? What, how were they thinking, what were they doing? What what was it that made the difference so that they survived something so traumatic. And so they were my new community. I found that I belong to that community, not because what I went through is nearly close to what they went through, but exactly because of that, they went through so much more. They were able to somehow I felt like I belonged to them. They were able to understand me somehow. And in their words, I found so many lessons that I could learn and that I could put into practice myself. And they became the giants of the soul for my unexpected mentors and me because it was as if I was on their shoulders, and I could see forward what I said before. Then my book wants to do speak from the future. You’re going to make it. That is the message I got from them. Right. They, they were showing me that they made it in such a difficult situation. So who am I not to make it- given that they made it? So, so they were my unexpected mentors. And still today, I am looking to them for greatness, for becoming the best possible human being I can be.

Jenn DeWall:

I, gosh, I love that story. It’s all about, you know, sometimes within leadership, we have to look around us who has been in our shoes before, again, not saying that you were in the same circumstance at all, but if we just look at a high level that if we look around us in our surroundings, who may have experienced conflict before, who may have experienced pain, who may have experienced this circumstance that you’re in? Someone may have done that. And what can you learn to be able to help yourself heal, move forward, be more resilient? I think it’s so important to look around us because I think our natural tendency is to isolate and say, I’m all alone. And no one has ever gone through something that I’ve gone through. And again, while we can’t compare everyone’s experiences to our own, because they’re all unique. And we can’t, you know, not look at the concentration camps as a comparison. We can find ways that we are more alike than we are different and that we can find healing and be inspired by others and how they showed up. I think that’s a really important message.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And, and, and also allow me to add the link to leadership, right? They had amazing leadership in what they went through and how they responded, and how they acted in that situation. And I believe that they, they lived courage. They were resilient. They, they trusted in life. And at different degrees, if you look carefully, these are traits that we need in today’s world. In our situation today, being at, at work, courage is simple. For example, if you have to have a very difficult conversation with somebody, right, and you do need the courage to start that conversation, to bring up some topics we need, we need resilience because we want to go places. We want to achieve certain goals. And sometimes, it is hard. And so you need to stick to your goal and your intention and don’t get frustrated too much, at least, but keep going and being resilient about it. Right. And trust that eventually, what’s good and what’s honorable eventually will, you will make it and will be the one element that will be the winner, right? So I think that with a different degree of intensity and pain, but the traits and the qualities that we need in leadership, like courage, resilience, trust—are key.

What Do People Get Wrong About Effective Leadership?

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s dive into the conversation now, talking about how we can be effective leaders. So we talked about, you know, one of that first, and I know we’re going to dive more into it. What does it mean as an individual, but let’s talk about where do people get it wrong? Like where, what are examples of bad leaders, and where do they get it wrong? Why are they not effective?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

What I would say, I don’t know if they get it wrong. Because I don’t think, I think that people tried their best for the situation they are in and for the abilities to understand and, and sense the situation if they can do it. I believe that a key element is always to be aware of others, to know that we are not alone and that we can not make it alone. So when you say, where did we get it wrong? I think that if you think about going solo, especially in this historical moment, I don’t think it works. I think that we need to collaborate. We need to cooperate with each other more and more. And especially if you are in a leadership position, you really want to have a team on board that contributes to the mission, the vision, and that are actually your team members. It doesn’t matter if you are in a leading position and they are your member of your team, right. We need to collaborate and cooperate. So doing things alone, I don’t think that works. And that would be my first answer to you.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a really important answer. I remember something, and this could be more out there, but it was something that my aunt had shared with me when I was younger. And it was, I think when I was in my twenties, you know, still really going for that need for strong independence, right. I live my own life. I’m creating this, and I’m blazing my own trail. And one of the things that my aunt said to me is that you will never be independent. We are always interdependent. Meaning we will always need to rely on, depend on,  trust and work with— collaborate with others. And you’re right. I think the first, you know, when people, where do people get leadership wrong, it’s when they think that it’s and I forget again, who said this, but when they think it’s a Me and not a We. And it’s, you know, we get that wrong, and we just think that it’s all about us. And that’s when we miss out on the opportunity to leverage people’s strengths, to connect with others and to get the most out of a team. How else do people maybe, you know, I guess how else, or what else gets in the way of people being effective leaders?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think when we, when we say, and we think I know better, and we, therefore, have an arrogance that does not allow us really to listen to others and to take into consideration their contribution. And, and I think that there, that we need a level of humility, which doesn’t mean that we do not have, we do not act with power or with strength. So humility is the fact that tells us that I am not perfect and I always am in need of help from others. Not because I am not enough, but because, as we just said with others is better, I would need their contribution. Whereas there are still too many people who are in charge that think that they know what is needed and that’s it. And what they bring to the table that might not be as important or as worthy of being taken into consideration? And so, again, I would say that arrogance is what becomes, it becomes a big barrier. It becomes a big barrier to being an effective leader.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I always say this when I teach classes on behalf of Crestcom for leadership development. When someone is onboarded into our class, the first thing I say is no ego. Drop your ego. Every person is here to be both your teacher and your student. We can all learn from each other, and we can all teach each other something, but your ego is going to be the biggest obstacle that you will ever have to overcome. Because I think ego also, you know, that creates that friction and the frustration, especially if something doesn’t go our way. You know, recognize the impact of eco and how much it can personalize things that don’t ever need to be personalized. And that we’re just all humans doing our best. I love that coming back from it. When you corrected it, it’s not that people are getting it wrong, right? It’s that everyone’s trying their best. I love that mentioned that you had said because it truly is. We have to trust that people assume positive intent. People are doing the best that they can with the information experience tools that they have. But Hey, we’re going to give you a different way to approach it today for those that may not realize how you could be showing up that could be maybe creating friction on your team. We’re going to talk about that.

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How Do We Start Becoming More Effective Leaders?

Jenn DeWall:

Barbara. So, where do you begin to become an effective leader? What’s the starting point for that?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I always start with doing the inner work of leadership on ourselves. And I always speak about a metaphor in relation to this first step, which I love, which is the metaphor of the watch. And if we consider it a beautiful watch, you can think about any watch you want. I like, but definitely. So I use that. And but definitely, but they have some models where you go, you see through the glass, and you see all the engines and all the tiny little parts that constitute the movement of the watch. And they are clear, and they are clean. They work in sync perfectly, and you can see the tiniest of them and they are all perfectly synchronized, and they are taken care of. So I think that the first step is really to do the inner work so that we can have our inner engine as clean and clear as well- functioning as shiny as the watch because once that’s done, that means that we have done the inner work to taking care of our understanding, how we work, how we function emotionally from a cognitive perspective, from a psychological perspective, even from a spiritual perspective, for those who have that dimension. And once we have taken care of all of those parts and aspects, and we know how they influence who we are and how we behave and how we relate and how we interact once that’s done and our inner movement works smoothly and is good, then we can focus on others. We can focus on the business; we can focus on other people. We can focus on actually making other people shine because we are working in and we are in harmony, and we are in a good balance within ourselves. So the first step is to me to be an effective leader is doing the inner work of leadership, which means do you actually know yourself going back for one moment to what you said before about the ego, right?

We cannot let go of the ego. If we do not know that we are in need, for example, of significance, or we want to be seen because by being seen and being considered great at what we do, we are gratified, and we feel at peace. So once we understand- this is just one example. But once we know that, then we can tame our ego a little bit, and we can leave space more to others, but we need to know that first, we need to recognize that, and we need to have had an insight about it. So I think that that’s, that is just one example of why it is important to just start doing the inner work and know yourself. Because from that dependence, the style of leadership, the way you interact, the relationship you build, and eventually the business that you create.

Doing the Inner Work to Become and Effective Leader

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, I feel I say this a lot to people. I think everyone needs either a therapist or a coach, someone that can stand with you and help you do that inner work. And I am pretty open about the inner work that I’ve done, because why not? And I don’t live in my story, so I feel open talking about it, but inner work for me, oh my gosh, it helped me understand if we’re talking about how it came down to leadership. Inner work for me was even understanding that I used to be triggered by authority, and it’s a result of my childhood. But understand that when I was in a conversation with someone that was maybe an executive leader or had higher organizational positions or positions of power, then I would become weaker wouldn’t be confident. I wouldn’t be as assertive as I naturally was in circumstances that I trusted. But once I recognized that it was because of that, then I could say, oh my gosh, this makes so much more sense.

And I could show up in a different way, but so many people maybe miss out on that opportunity to reflect and think about what your triggers are. How do you show up in different situations? And then be curious as to why do you think you show up that way? And I just think that’s so important because for me, again, I saw so many parallels between what my childhood experience was into how I actually showed up as a leader, even coming down to the need for feedback, wanting people to tell me I was good enough, instead of telling myself I was good enough. I don’t know. You likely have a similar story, right? There are so many parallels between, you know, what we’ve experienced the implosion of your marriage, how that comes to be in terms of doing the inner work, what was my trigger? What was my identity? How do I rebuild? I know I just said a lot, sorry.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And I know that you are. You are absolutely right. And, and in my case, what I needed to figure out and discover quickly and not that it was a secret- that I needed to take charge again was to trust. Because by being betrayed and by having my marriage destroyed so suddenly and out of the blue. First, for me became, it became a challenge, and it was very difficult to trust. First of all, myself, what I was thinking, what I was feeling, am I actually get it right or not given that in my, my mind and in my experience, as it unfolded, I did it completely wrong apparently, but I had to rebuild a new way of understanding trust in myself and therefore also in others, because as you know, leadership and not necessarily in a leadership position, but also in life, we relate to others. We are connected to others, and we do need trust. Otherwise, it’s impossible. And so doing the work of really understanding trust, and recognizing my way of trust and how do I rebuild that capacity for myself and for others, that’s part of the leadership. And that’s part of my story. And that was one of the teachings and one of the great exponential growth, let’s say, that my story brought with me.

Having the Courage to be an Effective Leader

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s, I, you just brought up trust as a characteristic, and I know that you talk about it also with two other pieces that you addressed earlier. So we’re thinking about becoming the leader that we want to be. There are three things that we will need three characteristics or traits, courage, resilience, and trust. And I know we just hit on trust, and we’ll probably come back to that, but let’s start with courage. What does that look like to be an effective leader? What does that mean?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think that courage is extremely important because courage is actually from the Latin word. It means the strength of the heart. Courage to me is having the first of all, the emotional ability to stand in uncertainty and to stand and be in fear. Experiencing fear, and nonetheless having the strength to move forward and to face no matter what is in front of you being at a very difficult decision, because it does bring consequences that are quite impactful. Being it is a decision to have that difficult conversation that could jeopardize a relationship that you care about. And so I think that developing the ability to be courageous. So having courage is an ability to stand in the truth in what you believe in what’s valuable for you and in standing up for what is valuable for you, no matter what the consequences. And I think that that’s a trait that leaders need because sometimes leaders do need to go against what is perceived as right because not everybody gets what it is about, for example. So you do need the courage to be alone. You do need the courage to feel like you are alone and, nonetheless, keep going. So it is really an emotional strength and mental strength that leaders do need to cultivate

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh. And it’s even, it sounds like, you know, there’s a big piece of authenticity, but then there’s a big piece of maybe leading and showing up kind of unapologetically. I don’t mean that you’re going around and lighting fires and making people mad, but also just saying that this is the right decision, and I can’t just follow the course, you know, just because that’s what we perceive as something everyone should be doing. I think that’s so important, but yet, oh my gosh. How the heck do you have the courage? Because I think we still have that root of wanting to be liked as leaders. I think that’s the biggest challenge leaders just so badly— and it makes total sense— want to be liked for being a leader, but yet, so it can be very hard to stand alone. What advice would you give them?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

It is true that we want to be liked. What we don’t realize is that we do not need to be liked right now. So what I meant is that sometimes decisions that we make are not understood, and it appears like it hurts others. They hurt others. And in that very moment, we are not liked, but if we stay and remain steadfast in our decision because we are moved by what we believe is good and right, then the fact of being liked is not that important. Because the awareness that I am in any way contributing for the best becomes first, and my desire or need to be like, which is still part of the ego, can go second. And so it is part of learning to be a leader, the fact that even if I’m not liked right now, let’s leave time and see, right.

Because of the goodness of what I am proposing, the decision I made will show up eventually in some form in some sort. So people that right now didn’t understand my decision, and they don’t like me right now. They might come back and like me later or reconsider. Right. And if they don’t, that’s okay. I’ve made my journey. And I have been living in integrity with what I believed was the right decision, given the circumstances and the data I have at my disposal. So I think that we need, and that’s where also courage plays a part, right? We need to stand in the uncertainty of not being liked for a while. And it doesn’t need that. It won’t be, we won’t be like forever, but it is right now from that particular people kind of people we are not like, and let’s see, but I think that the good intention, and if decisions are moved by something that is actually good, it will come up eventually in a form or another. So we need to bear discomfort and the frustration, and maybe a little bit, the fear of not being liked in your example, or any other emotions that we do not feel comfortable with, we need to, we need to be strong enough to bear that discomfort as much as needed to move forward. Does that make sense?

Embrace Discomfort!

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely! Embrace the discomfort! You know, I think people always think there’s a quick fix and sometimes it’s just time and you’ve got to understand that it’s a moment of time, this too shall pass. It will not be like this forever. And, you know, give yourself that hope and understanding, which I think leads to your second characteristic of being an effective leader, which is resilience. So of like how, you know, resilience might be still pushing through, even when people may not agree with your decisions or like you, or, you know, whatever the event or circumstance might be.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And keep going and be determined and keep looking at what is your goal? What is that you want to achieve? What is it you want to communicate? And even if now you’re not able to do it, it doesn’t matter. You keep going with the good intention that moves you underneath. And so you keep going, and you have that trust that that’s why they go together. You have to trust. And for someone, it could also be faith that something good will come out of it. And so you keep moving forward, no matter what you perceive at the moment because sometimes we perceive it as it was for me. In my experience, I had to become resilient because what was happening in the outside world was totally not positive. It didn’t speak about the great opportunities coming in the future.

Actually, it felt very often like everything was gone, and everything was done, and it was finished, and there was no future anymore. And so I had somehow to yes, feel that, think that, and then doesn’t matter, I move forward as if there is actually a future as if there are great opportunities. Even if at the moment, I don’t feel that. And so, I think that resilience is part of it. It is this experience as well. I might feel discouraged. And I believe that no matter what, I move forward because it might be something positive ahead. And then, with that belief, I actually move.

Jenn DeWall:

And so the advice there, it sounds like if you want to build your own resilience, you also have to know what you’re working towards. And I know we could talk about Simon Sinek, start with why, but it’s really about crafting a vision for your future. That your circumstance today might not feel that great, might not inspire. You might not be where you want to be, but there can be better.

You Don’t Have to Know Where You Are Going to Start Walking

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Yes. But I would like to challenge that a little bit because sometimes it is true that if we have a vision and we know where we are going, it is easier, but there are moments in our life when to even think about the future or dream about the future, or even trying to figure out the future is extremely painful. And so we can really not do it. And so I don’t want to say that if you do not have a vision, you cannot move forward because for me, when my marriage collapsed and the life, as I’ve had always thought about, disappeared, I didn’t know how to think about the future. And yet, I had to move forward because otherwise, I would have literally sunk into my pain. And so it wasn’t very difficult because you move, you need to move forward. And at the same time, you can not, and you do not know what to expect, what you dream, not even dream, but think about. Right?

And so before being in the position in a situation to craft a vision, I think that resilience is, you know, what, believe that there will be a vision at the certain point that will show up and you will be able to tap into and recognize. But even if right now, you don’t have it, it doesn’t matter because there is still life ahead. And what you want to do is just one step forward towards something that you might not know what it is. And I’m a speaking rod for people that need to work hard because they are in traumatic situations, in a difficult situation. And they are still working in cooperation and in their life. But it’s so painful. You can just take, make some steps and little steps. It doesn’t matter if you do not have a vision, then there will be a moment when, okay, now I’m ready to actually create my own vision again. But first, I have taken care of myself, and with resilience, I continued moving forward. I think that that’s important because otherwise too many people go, oh, wow. So it becomes a problem. If I don’t have a vision, it becomes, how do I do that? Through our moments, when you want to work on a vision, there are moments when you need to be patient and work a little bit on something else first.

Jenn DeWall:

No, I think that’s an important pushback, just that, like, you’re not naturally going to transition to, you know, especially from trauma, especially from trauma, that you are not going to move forward into being able to see the future very quickly, depending on the circumstance. So I think that’s an important observation, consideration and challenge because trauma plays a huge role. Mental health plays a huge role; depression, anxiety, bipolar, whatever that might be, impacts our ability to be resilient. And, you know, it impacts our ability to even see a path forward. And so I think that I love that you pushed back and challenged that and talked about just the small steps that we need to take.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Thank you. And that doesn’t mean that these people that have to take these baby steps won’t become absolutely great leaders and will have their vision and realize that they actually think the opposite because they had to slow down and really feel everything. And then they will be so ready to get to their vision when the time is right.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I don’t think I would even be where I was today if I didn’t go through pain. There’s just no way. And when I’m talking about pain, it can be mental health. As I’ve talked about openly on the podcast, I suffer from depression, but it could be just trauma that you have. And, you know, looking at that is not a mark of shame, not a mark of what makes you less than, but a mark of, you know, your current of the traits that you’re talking about, your courage, your resilience, your trust, and the strength that you truly have. I just, there’s a lot of value in when you can look back, and it’s not in the moment that you can look at it and say, wow, I really am happy about this situation or feeling like this. But it is the reflection past too, you know, look at yourself and appreciate yourself for how strong and courageous and resilient you are. So let’s wrap up with talking about the final component or characteristic, or maybe circle back, because we talked about courage, you know, the courage to maybe move forward, despite what other people might think or say, and then our need to be resilient despite whether or not we have a vision of the future. But then also trust. What role does trust play in our ability to be effective leaders?

Effective Leaders Have to Trust Others

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Oh, well, that’s a huge one. I think that trust is really, I would say everything. If you think about this moment, you are trusting the chair you’re sitting on is not going to break.

Jenn DeWall:

I hope not!

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Exactly! We are constantly in trust, even when we walk on a bridge, even if we don’t think about it is actually we trusted the technology that built a bridge will stay and will work. Right. So I believe that trust is really key, and it is made of many different components. How do we build trust? It has to do with our ability to set boundaries, for example. Now I’m talking about trust in relation to people, right? Set boundaries, and be sure that if I am communicating in relation or I am in a relationship with you, you know, where my boundaries are, and you’re not stepping on them or beyond those boundaries that are important for me because it, they constitute my safe space.

And I need to be able to recognize your boundaries, for example, and not step into your intimate area and life-space. It has to do with the ability to respect privacy. When you speak to me about something, or when I speak to you about something that is very important to me, I trust that you respect the privacy of what I’m saying. You are not going to talk about it on a podcast or with other people. It has to do with – to build trust, we need to suspend judgment, right? I need to suspend judgment. And when you say something, you need to feel free to express yourself knowing that I am actually listening without passing any judgment on what you say, but I’m actually open and listen to you and vice versa. And these allow us to express ourselves. These are just some of the elements that we need to be aware of them that constitute what we’ll build into trust.

And just by mentioning these few elements, we see that trust is an experience. It is not just as something that I give you or you earn. It is really an experience made of tiny little events and behaviors that I am experiencing when I am with you. And it is complex, and it requires time. And it definitely, I think it requires a focus, the ability to know that everything we do in a relationship, and therefore, if you are a leader, every time you interact with people in your team or with your peers, or the leaders in your organization you are building trust or I don’t say destroy because that’s too strong, but you are walking backward.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, eroding trust.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Yes, eroding. Thank you. So I think that it is so important because then on the trust we walk and now I’m getting, going back to the metaphor of the bridge. If I trust you, I can actually walk next to you, and I feel safe, and I can express myself and vice versa. If I am concerned and I feel that I don’t have trust in you, we are not moving forward because I’m testing all the time that I am safe. That I, what I am communicating is going to be taken care of. And so the focus remains on me instead of on you, instead of being on what we can create, this is just one way- there are many.

Is Trust Given or Earned?

Jenn DeWall:

How you just talked about trust inspired me. I just taught a webinar last week on trust. And one of the questions that we pulled the group for was should trust be earned? Like, should, do you earn it or do you just give it to or give it? Like, do you give it off the bat when you have a new employee, or you have a new boss, do you just say, okay, like, we’re going to be working together. Am I going to give you trust, or do you not trust them until they prove themselves to you? What’s your take on that? Cause it was actually a pretty big split in terms of how people see that.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think that’s it’s both. So I start always for the kind of person I am. For example, I start always assuming that people are acting and behaving in good faith and with good intentions. And so my starting position is I am open to trusting you. Then I am also aware that I need to be conscious, right. That is because stress is a complex experience, and it is made of many different behaviors. And here I am thinking Brene Brown and her seven behaviors, the BRAVING. She called them the seven behaviors that constitute trust because trust is a complex experience. I am open to trusting you, and at the same time, by interacting with you and by entering the relationship with you, I am at work, and we are colleagues, right. I know where I stand in relation to trust.

If I know, for example, that for you is a little bit difficult to respect privacy, because maybe you never thought about it as an important element in the relationship. And therefore, it is easy for you to just talk about things that I confide in you with other people. Not because you’re bad, but just, you don’t think about it. Then there, it becomes a moment where we build one step further trust. I can come to you and have a difficult conversation non-judgmental, but I am expressing how I feel in relation to the way you handle privacy with respect to me. And that becomes an opportunity to build that element of trust. Right? So at that moment, you do earn a little bit. It is like if we have a jar and we put in a jar, all stones, then build trust, and then I will put in a jar of colorful stones because once we have that conversation and we have clarified that, I feel like that. Next time, at least you will think a little bit more right based on the conversation so that it will be a little bit of trust. So I am open to giving you trust. And then I am also aware, and I will pay attention with respect to my way of feeling that I can trust you, where do you stand? And how can I work with you to build more and more our ability to trust each other and our capacity for trust? So I think it is both given and earned at the same time.

How to Get In Touch with Barbara

Jenn DeWall:

That’s important and the levels of trust that you might give it to you. And then it’s the opportunity to fill the jar after that. Barbara, I am so grateful for our conversation today. How can our audience get in touch with you?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

There is my website, which is my name, BarbaraDallePezze.com, and there is also, I am on LinkedIn, active on LinkedIn. So just by typing in my name, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, which I always love.

Jenn DeWall:

You can also get your book, The Unexpected Gift on your website. Barbara, thank you so much for sharing your time, your thoughts, your beliefs, everything with our listeners today. I’m very grateful to have met you and had this conversation.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Thank you so much! It has been really great having this conversation with you. And thank you for having me here.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Barbara. If you knew a friend that could benefit from hearing this podcast topic of how to be an effective leader, share it with them, or share it with a coworker, share it with your team. Together we rise. And of course, if you are interested in developing your leaders head on over to Crestcom.com, where you can schedule a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop, where we come into your organization to help you develop your leaders. And of course, if you want to connect with Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze, you can head on over to her website, and there you can find additional information about her services as well as purchase her book, The Unexpected Gift. Until next time.

 

The post How to be an Effective Leader In Your Life with Barbara Dalle Pezze appeared first on Crestcom International.

Scale Up Your Business with Jonathan Goldhill, Author and Certified Growth Coach

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Jonathan Goldhill. Jonathan is a masterful scale-up business coach and personal strategist specializing in guiding next-generation leaders of family businesses to scale up their business as they take control over the leadership and ownership of the family business. Jonathan left New York for California at age 20, after his family’s large privately held men’s apparel manufacturing company started by his great-grandfather sold to a conglomerate in its third generation of family ownership. Within ten years, Jonathan had established himself as the go-to expert for entrepreneurs looking to find their version of Brita. And today, Jonathan brings 30 years of experience to his clients, advising, coaching, consulting, training, and guiding entrepreneurial and family businesses. Join Jonathan and me today as we talk about how to scale your business to eight figures and beyond.

Meet Jonathan Goldhill, Scale-up and Family Business Coach

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. I’m so happy to be sitting down with Jonathan Goldhill. And today, we’re going to talk about how to scale your business to eight figures and beyond! Now, who wouldn’t want to know how to do that. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, a small business owner, or a family business owner, this podcast is for you. Jonathan. Thank you so much for joining us today. You’re a business coach. How did you come to be? What was your journey like to become a business coach?

Jonathan Goldhill:

Yeah, Jenn, that’s a great question. Do you want the short story or the long story?

Jenn DeWall:

I want the long story. Let’s hear it!

Jonathan Goldhill:

All right. So I grew up in Mamaroneck, New York. My family lived a pretty nice lifestyle. I would call it upper-middle-class. And I was really well aware that my grandfather, who I admired greatly, built a very successful business. My father, who was a son-in-law, joined the business when he was very young. He had to have been fresh out of Yale law school, had a law degree, hated law, went into becoming a clothing executive selling men’s suits. And you know I didn’t get to know my dad. Unfortunately, he died when I was two. And so my life journey has always been about being healthy first and putting that first and, and having freedom and not being stuck. And so what I saw, though, was my grandfather was a self-made man and owned an enormously successful business.

His two brothers – so three of them and their father, built a multi-generational private label men’s suit manufacturing company. It was the largest private label men’s suit manufacturing company in the 1900s. So they started it when they were nine, 11 and 13 as boys. They were peddling. Yeah, I mean, and this is like, these are my clients today, Jenn. These are like guys who started in their parents’ business when they were 12, 14, 16, working evenings and weekends. And so, you know, if you see yourself in this picture, I’m talking to you. I find that I get a lot of clients like that. They’re the next generation leader in a family business, and they want to take the business to another level, and they know that what got them here isn’t going to get them there. And so, for me, my journey was about seeing how successful my family was in this business.

I mean, literally like 2000 employees, 500,000 square feet of manufacturing space. And you know, they made suits for like every major retailer in the United States. And unfortunately, I mean, I would have liked to have gone into that business because I think, wow, what an incredible stepping stone, but in the third generation, the only family members that wanted to go into it were in-laws, and they decided maybe because they got a good offer to sell. They decided to sell it when I was probably 11 years old, as my research says. So going back to 1969, that’s how old I am. Folks, date me at 1958. And so they decided to sell the business, but what they did when they sold it was they maintained lifetime employment contracts as the CEO and this chief administrative officer. And they had swanky offices on 57th street or, you know, like Rockefeller Center, Rockefeller.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, in the Garment District!

Jonathan Goldhill:

Yeah. The garment district in New York. And I used to go in there, and they have the showroom, and like, I didn’t know the business was sold. I just figured this was the way the business book, you know, it was a showroom. I never went into the manufacturing plant. So I wasn’t that teenage kid growing up in the manufacturing plant. But my mother’s cousin ran the manufacturing plant. He had a Wharton degree. It was based in Pennsylvania. It was in a landmark building. And you know, I just thought like, wow, this is, this is a success. This is what I want to have. And unfortunately, that opportunity to join that family business and, you know, benefit from the spoils of that, wasn’t there. But that interest in family business always was really keenly with me. And so fast forward I decide when I’m 20 that I’ve got some money in my, you know, whatever I, however, I got, and I don’t know if I was getting social security checks from my dad cause he died early.

Maybe I had some family money, but whatever. I came to California to finish college, and I stayed, and I came here really to California to sort of find my freedom. And I had a lot of freedom and bounced around for a few years, started a couple of things, a couple of businesses. I started an art and clothing company in 1986. I thought it was going to be an amazing success. I reached out to my grandfather to see if maybe he would invest some money into it. Only to find out that, like his, he was too far gone with having had strokes or Alzheimer’s or whatever senility. So that door was closed, and I realized I had chosen really poorly in a partner. My partner was an artist who painted on clothes. I thought we were going to be, and we had really unique stuff. We couldn’t scale it because he couldn’t teach people his skills.

The Path to Becoming a Family Business Coach

Jonathan Goldhill:

And it turns out that he wasn’t a person of great integrity. He was really just an opportunist looking for people like myself, who could put some money into it, open up a store, sell the stuff, and then he’d move on to some other, you know, beautiful place that like Aspen or South Hampton or, you know, Bali or wherever. So, that sent me back to business school to get an MBA. And I was particularly interested in entrepreneurship and consulting, and I found a guy named John Davis, who is a family business coach. And he was like getting his Ph.D. in some corner office there. And I thought like, this is what I want to do. So fast forward, I got into consulting right out of business school. I built an agency of 30 to 40 people that provides consulting, training and financing to small businesses. We got funding from the city, the county, the state, the federal government and private individuals and entrepreneurs.

And so, after doing that for ten years, I got involved in another dot-com startup that went dot-bomb. And I said you know what? It’s, it’s B to C for me. It’s back to consulting and back to business. And I’ve been on my own ever since then, that was 21 years ago, and I’ve been consulting, training, financing. And about 14 years ago, I switched to just being a coach because I realized that consulting was really useful because it’s good people need advice, but I was very opportunistic, always looking for a company that had a problem that I might be able to solve and trying to figure out what I could do until I realized that, you know, coaching is like having a playbook. And when you start to recognize that entrepreneurs all have similar- many entrepreneurs- have similar problems, they have similar problems, managing people, they have similar problem problems managing their time and their priorities and their, their, their mindset.

And, they have similar difficulties with execution and getting people to be accountable and holding people accountable and putting measures in place. And I thought you know, what, why don’t I just find a good playbook and start to run that playbook by each company. And lo and behold, here I am 20 years later with my own playbook that I decided to run. And I decided to go back to my, you know, my roots because I recognize that my best clients were next-generation leaders in family businesses. Like I was saying earlier, people who were 14, 16, 18- grew up kind of watching mom or dad or mom and dad in the business. And, you know, maybe they built a million-dollar business, maybe a built a $5 million business. Maybe it was even larger- 10 million. And my goal is to take those people and help them to scale up to two to 10 X their business because my passion is about helping people find their freedom.

I found mine at an early, I was a gifted mind at an early age, and out of a no bill, like noblesse oblige, you know, the, like the obligation of the noble is like give back, help others do the same thing. So I, that’s a long answer maybe to your story, but I think it’s a full circle and it gives people an idea of like the importance of purpose and calling in your life. Because that’s the first P in my framework is you gotta know your why. You have to know what it is that you’re called to do. And you, you know, people struggle with probably all their lives. I think to find that I think I was blessed at an early age. I don’t know how I think it came from my mother- the sense of purpose, the sense of doing good, doing well, and you know, doing for others. And so that’s my story. And I’m sticking with it.

What are The Challenges to Scaling-Up a Business?

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a beautiful story, though. And I love it. The foundation of your business was this observation when you were younger of your families, starting this business, scaling this business, growing this business. So you have it from maybe more of that observer point of view, but then it went to your own trial and error. You had, I’m sure, so many wins and losses, you know, you had the dot-com or dot-bomb as you called it. And then also learning, oh my gosh, we can’t scale. If all of the talents are within this one individual, we can’t educate anyone else. So I love that you not only have the foundation that’s rooted in just seeing why you want to help family businesses succeed and do well, but then you also have that historical knowledge that people need. Because I think there are a lot of people, whether they are new to the family business or whether they’re new to business in general, that actually just, they have an idea, and there’s just too much around them to actually figure out what to do, which brings me to the first question. So what challenges do you see that maybe family-run businesses or entrepreneurs run into when they’re starting to scale?

Jonathan Goldhill:

Well, let’s take a page out of Marcus Lemonis’s book, from The Profit on CNBC. Many people have probably watched that show with great enthusiasm. He goes into family businesses mostly and turns them around. And you know, I think his tagline is People, Processes and Profits. I mean, those are probably the cornerstone is like, if you don’t have the right people and they’re if they’re not in the right seats and that they’re not doing the right things, and if they’re not doing the right things, right, which means like being effective and being efficient, both like you can’t build or scale anything. When I was in business school, we had venture capitalists parade through our entrepreneur classes, one after the next, after the next, I mean, it wasn’t literally a parade, but it seems like they were coming frequently enough. And they kept saying over and over again. I heard it drilled into our heads. It’s like, you know, an A management team can execute on a C business plan concept much better than an A concept with a C team. So, in other words, get the right people. And so very oftentimes in family businesses, they just take the family that is there because they sort of fit, but they’re not always in the right seat. Maybe they get, you know, I know every business I ever joined, as I would start in what I call the troubleshooter position, which means that I was like run around and find stuff to do that I was good at, where I could add value. And then eventually you’re like, oh Jonathan, you know, this guy he’s pretty good at communicating with our customers. And he’s pretty good at picking up the phone, and he’s really persistent. And so let’s give them maybe a sales position that that’ll be a good place to put him.

So too often, family members don’t have the family member kind of like in the right seat, or they’re not trained so well. And then, the conflict can oftentimes ensue because it already exists in the home. Perhaps there’s dysfunction. That’s normal. And then maybe there’s entitlement. In one family, one sibling feels that the other sibling gets more fair treatment or one sibling is cut out to be the president and wants to be a leader. And the other just wants to be kind of like I’ve seen it where literally, I just want to be like a mechanic in the shop, you know, or like, you know, being what I call a wrench and you can’t pay that person as well. And so, you know, then there gets conflict, like, Hey, my brother’s making, he’s making 150,000, and I’m making 42 like this doesn’t look fair. So you’ve got to deal with this people issue.

Defined Roles and Accountability

Jonathan Goldhill:

And the way I address it is by putting an organization or an accountability chart defining what the roles are. So like, you know, map out an ideal picture of what people, you know, looks like. And, and kind of like Marcus does go in, do an assessment of who’s doing, what are they doing? The right roles? You know, what do I need to mediate between people if, if that’s in existence and then what are the processes look like to manage this business? Because you can’t scale any business beyond yourself. If you don’t have processes that people can follow, so you need to have processes. And so that’s pretty obvious to scale, and people say, you know, profitability, well, that’s just an obvious, but it’s not so easy because first of all, as you scale, your fixed costs change. So your break-even goes up.

So you need to manage the profitability at different sizes of your scale. You also have to balance profitability with the balance sheet, which is equally important, which is, are you building an asset that’s valuable and, and maybe sellable or, or transferrable to the next generation. And so managing profitability as a company, scales become different because your costs keep going up. And at sometimes you’re really profitable, and other times you’re less profitable. And hopefully, you’re following that, you know, that stair-step, if you will, with an S curve going up as well, and it’s not that easy to manage that. So those are probably the three pillars of the biggest challenges in scaling a business. Does that, does that, does that sit right with you?

What Happens When You Don’t Scale Up?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, I’ve even when I think about the people component, you know, it’s obviously challenging for people, whether you own a business or not, to be able to assess someone’s readiness or skill level. And I think it’s just interesting because you do add in that tension, that conflict, the maybe ego that people are probably going to be a little bit more vocal if they don’t get the position, or there’s going to be a little bit more conflict, whereas that stuff you may not see in a corporate setting or a traditional business setting. And so it sounds like you almost have to be a family therapist when you’re a business coach, initially, when you’re peeling back the layers to figure out what is really going to work for the sake of the business, but also, you know, making sure that everyone can work and run it together.

And yeah, I think even as an entrepreneur myself, when I think about the processes piece that is still, and it was the most challenging thing thinking about where do I start? What process do I need to even have? And really, how do I self-structure? I guess if I look at my own journey, initially, it was self-structuring. It was very easy to do everything when someone was telling you to do it. It’s a lot different when you’re in the pilot seat, and you maybe had someone else do that, and you have to flex your skillset. And then, of course, profitability. So let’s talk about the consequences of not scaling. What happens if we don’t scale? What do you see as maybe the challenge or consequence, or outcome of not scaling?

Jonathan Goldhill:

You know, that’s a really good question. And I used to do a seminar like 10-15 years ago. Maybe it was called if you’re not growing, you’re dying. And I really believe that there, it probably the laws of physics are, you can only stay in one place for so long before you either move up or down. And so I think one of the consequences of not growing is that you’re going to end up losing people because, or good people. Good people, like A players, want to be challenged, and they want to be challenged by learning opportunities, growth opportunities, by, of course, income-earning opportunities. But that’s not the first thing they’re looking for. They want to be challenged as people. And if you’re not growing, then you’re not adding to not only the profitability, but you’re not improving people.

And so, like, you know, corporations are basically people. And people need to be working on themselves. You were talking about being a self like you didn’t say self-starter, but you had to manage yourself, right. And it’s not easy, by the way, it’s not easy for a lot of people, even when they’re told what to do, how to manage themselves. You’d be, you know, maybe surprised to know that some people struggle with attendance, getting to work on time, or having a good attitude. And so you constantly have to be coaching people. And like, if you look at people the way, and one of my favorite companies that do this really well is Lululemon. They really are all about developing their people. I think everyone who works at Lululemon or used to like had to go through a landmark education forum, which is basically a communication workshop. And it’s a program that helps you elevate yourself.

So if you’re not scaling, then you’re dying. You’re losing employees. Your profitability is going down. You know, processes that maybe should be put into place start falling apart. You’re not keeping up with technological advances, which make your job easier, but it’s, of course, more difficult to implement these technological software programs. I mean, they’re, they’re a beast for some clients to put in place, but the value that you get from them is robust. And so it really separates the A-players from the B and C players. And you end up falling off. I mean, I think you know, growth for growth’s sake isn’t necessarily the right thing. Like in my business, we have in coach the coaching industry, we have a saying revenue is vanity, profitability is sanity. And it makes sense because you have to manage towards that profitability. So, you know, I think each company is going to have a different set of consequences, but I think some of them is just going to be that you’re going to lose your people and that you’re going to lose your best people first. Then you’re going to lose more people next. And, you know, things go into a state of decline.

Scaling Up in a Talent Drought—Become a Destination Employer

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. You don’t have the right people to be supporting the mission. And even right now, I, you know, listening to the news every single day, hearing about whether it’s issues in the supply chain or whether it’s the fact that we just can’t find employees for certain positions. I know here in the United States, I was listening. I think there’s still cargo ships, you know, off the port that they can’t even bring in. And you think about that. And just in terms of what are you doing right now, where there’s this talent drought, and how are you protecting that? How are you being intentional with being able to preserve your people? So this is why you need to scale. And in a second, we’re going to talk about Jonathan’s tips for how to help you scale. I’m curious, what do you think would be the starting point? So now that we’re going into this, like, what is the starting point for how you even look at scaling? Because I think that, you know, I know you talked about people, processes and profits, but where do you, what avenue do you go down? Because there’s likely a lot of problems that a business owner or a CEO sees within their business, right? How do they determine which one is their starting point?

Jonathan Goldhill:

That’s a really good question. And your comment earlier is instructive of what, where the starting point is, and it’s not even in my framework. And so let’s just go back for a second where, you know, currently we see things like maybe interruptions to the supply chain. Where many people are well aware that there’s a drought talent for employees and you have to create, like, you have to be a destination employer and attract people magnetically with like, I don’t know, with a hook or a magnet that grabs them and says, you know, come work for us. Like, we’re the best thing since sliced bread. I mean, it’s not easy. And so I think the first place that one starts and where I started in my coaching career was as a growth coach was working on people’s mindset. We call it the strategic mindset process.

If you’re not thinking, if you’re not working on your business, then you’re stuck in it. If you’re, when you’re working on your business, you’re paying attention to what’s going on in the economy. You’re paying attention to maybe supply chain interruptions. And you know about this stuff because you’re talking to your vendors, your suppliers, and you’re finding out, Hey, what’s going on out there. You’re participating in your industry association. And you’re saying to people who are really maybe collegial, a little more open, Hey, what are you experiencing out there? You’re talking to your customers. And you’re saying, what are you seeing from our competitors out there? I mean, so you have to have the mindset that I’m not going to like bury my head down, but the nose to the grindstone, but I’m going to get up. I’m going to get out and walk around, and I’m going to communicate and connect, and I’m going to do whatever I can to learn.

Never Stop Learning

Jonathan Goldhill:

So I’m going to, I’m going to read books. I’m going to listen to podcasts, but I’ll watch Ted Talks. I’m going to talk to my peers who are going to be part of round tables and peer groups, and industry associations. I’m gonna seek out friendly colleagues who will mentor me and maybe in other parts of the countries, if they’re not, you know, so they’re not geographically competing, perhaps. So your mindset, Jenn, is where you have to start. And what I find is that people who have that kind of a growth mindset, then they can approach the seven Ps playbook, the framework that I’ve given them. And they’ve, they’re ready to scale because they prepared themselves. And not only mentally, but also physically, right? I mean, business is a contact sport. You have to get out there, you have to touch people, but you have to be in good shape for this.

You have to eat right. You have to sleep well. You have to, you know, think positive thoughts. You have to deal with negative emotions that might come up in your life. You have to exercise. I mean your body. I know I used to always read about this with like salespeople. The fittest salespeople are the best salespeople. How about the fitness entrepreneurs are like the best entrepreneurs? I mean, you have to take this on. You have to start with learning and your mindset. That’s my answer to your question. And then once you have that, then you can go into looking at, okay, what am I going to implement as far as like a playbook or an operating system into my company,

Jenn DeWall:

If you yourself are not growing, you are dying. That is what’s happening. And growth is through whether it’s mind, body, spirit, understanding the business climate, and environment or economy that you’re operating in. And I think that’s an important point. Again, it might sound obvious to some people like, of course, you look at the mindset. But I think what I sometimes observe when people are starting a business is that they like to focus on what they perceive as fun to manage, right? And then they don’t want to focus on the not-fun stuff. And the not-fun stuff is relevant, important, essential to being able to sustain that. And so I think it’s important to say, are you looking at that as you, you know, that 30,000-foot view looking down at your business to figure out where can you actually step in and add? What’s really going on instead of maybe sitting within one pocket of that business and focusing on it. So let’s get to your playbook. I’m so sorry. Do you have a comment for that?

Jonathan Goldhill:

No, I just, yeah, I was on a call with a client yesterday. It was a father and the daughter, I’m coaching the daughter, and she and the father are very much alike. They don’t like certain things in the CEO role. They don’t like dealing with the lawsuits that come with the business that they’re in, which are large and sometimes frustrating. And usually, the insurance companies take care of it. They don’t like dealing with taxes. They don’t like the financial strain that comes with having 40 employees that they have to make sure they have a paycheck for each week. And my answer as a coach is let’s start to address each one of these. I mean, it first might start with your mindset around the lawsuits. Like how do we eliminate having lawsuits in the first place by being really effective in our communication, by having really good, clear sales contracts by having well-trained people who the work, right and the quality control is there?

I mean, it’s a joy to run a business that’s running great. There’s nothing worse. It’s a nightmare to run one, you know, where you’re, you know, I mean, look, a lot of people get into entrepreneurship because they’ve got this dream of being independent and then it warps into this like owner’s nightmare. And like, you know, to some degree with this father and daughter. They do not want to deal with the nightmare part, but they’re working at it because they have this positive mindset bias. But you can’t be Pollyanna about this. You have to deal with the heavy stuff, and you have to find maybe a trusted advisor who can take over the stuff that you don’t like. Okay.

Scale Up with Jonathan’s 5 P’s

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s dive into the playbook! So, how can you scale? Let’s talk about you have your playbook for helping businesses scale. What is the first thing they need to do?

# 1 – Purpose

Jonathan Goldhill:

The first thing is they need to understand why they’re doing what they’re doing. They, you know, to build a culture in a business, you have to know your why, and you have to attract people who are attracted to your why. Think Apple, think differently. Think, you know, we challenge the status quo, right? That like people became Apple evangelists. Apple became the biggest company in the world at one point, close to still is because they thought differently. They challenged the status quo. They were imaginative. They had a great design, and they attracted people who believed in the calling that Steve Jobs, who was like a prophet, was right. Not the nicest guy necessarily, but a prophet of sorts in the world of business. I mean, look, he was like a success in what, five or six different industries. I mean, that’s pretty amazing.

You have to get your purpose down, too. And you have to know what it is. What’s your, why? What’s your calling. You have to establish a set of core values or operating behaviors that everyone will pretty much play by, and you’ll hire and fire and reward by those core values. Purpose is really critical to the founding point of what is your vision.

# 2 – Planning

Jonathan Goldhill:

Second thing, right? You need to have a vision. And with that purpose in the vision, you develop a plan. And so my second P is planning. You have to know, where will you be in 90 days? Where do you, where do you want to be in 90 days? And you need to communicate. What’s the first thing. And the only and the major thing that we need to focus on and what our second and third and other four things that we’ll get to that are also important. But what’s the message that you want to communicate a great leader, a great president, communicates a message over and over and over again until everyone believes in it. And look. Hopefully, it’s a true message, but you know, and it’s not a false message, but you, because if you lose that credibility, then people won’t continue to follow you. But you’ve got to plan beyond the 90 days. What does one year, what does three years, heck, what does 10 or 25 years look like? If you have that big vision, you have to get people to follow along, and you have to put it down on paper. So you can create some alignment around the vision, and you have to share it, and you have to communicate it widely within your company.

Jenn DeWall:

Jonathan, I’ve got a question about the plan, and it’s something that, you know, as a coach myself, I have watched, you know, I started my business in 2013. And one of the things that I watched my peers kind of do in terms of the planning about their business is just throwing money at everything. And I, well, I just didn’t have that. I didn’t have that starting bucket that I could throw $30,000 at something. So I, in the beginning, was really just learning. I did my own SEO. I did my own marketing. I did all of this so I could teach them how to do it. I did my own taxes until I could get an accountant, and it was challenging, but yet I would have rather done it that way instead of just throwing money, like $30,000 to do this $50,000 to do that. And now, when I see them today, their businesses aren’t even open anymore. And so when I, I’m just curious what your thoughts are and where people get the planning piece wrong in terms of throwing money at everything.

Jonathan Goldhill:

That’s a really good question, Jenn. And I think, you know, I, I think back to the time when I hired my very first employee in my own consulting firm that was my dollars. It wasn’t someone else’s dollars. And I remember taking a lot of time to think about, like, what’s the worst-case scenario? What’s the downside? What’s the best-case scenario? What’s the upside? What’s the likely and probable, you know, probability. And back then, when I did business plans for clients, I would always do an optimistic, a pessimistic and a realistic scenario. And so I still believe that that’s really important when you make an investment in equipment, in training, in people, in a person, in an office or a factory or industrial space, you have to think in terms of how can I minimize my risk? You have to try, and as entrepreneurs, contrary to what some people think, they’re not risk-takers, they’re risk-averse, they are adventurous, and they’re venturesome, and they’re innovative, but they do everything possible to minimize the downside risk.

And you’ve got to look at every investment as a value proposition and figure out, you know, what’s the worst-case scenario. Can I still survive? You know, can I sustain? If I can’t sustain a 30,000 to 50,000, a hundred thousand dollar investment, then I have to be, you know, then I have to be absolutely certain about my investment. You know, look, there are many companies, I probably couldn’t name one off-hand that have failed because they, they believed in one. Okay. Let’s pick, let’s pick some companies we know. Lycos, AltaVista, Ask Jeeves. I’m just thinking of some search engines back, back in those days, right. They state, you know that you know, they staked their vision on one thing that they thought was going to be like, this is the way search was going to be done on the internet. And, you know, and then along comes this company with this crazy look- like there was nothing on the page.

I mean, Yahoo was like the bomb back in the day. That was where you’d go. And then along comes Google. And it’s just like, it’s just got a search bar. And it became like the searches came super fast. And that speed was, and the fact that they had like they had digitized the universe and figured out how to deliver up information. The information that you wanted. It was quite brilliant. So we don’t think about the failures, but I guarantee you, most of those failures were made by professional investors with their money, and, you know, not everyone can always be right. I know I’ve heard of people who passed on the investment in Yahoo and Google cause they thought that’d never work, you know? And like, they’re like, you know, and then there are those guys who’ve made those investments that are, you know, billionaires. So but I think that the answer is really thinking through and planning it out. And that’s what entrepreneurs do is they really, they think through the upside, the downside and what’s the likely scenario.

Jenn DeWall:

And I, I, I think that’s so important to just say because I think there’s a lot of people, as you had said earlier, that get into entrepreneurship because they want the freedom. They want independence. You are managing a business. And that is, you know, so you have to look at the business, and you can’t just get caught up at the potential of freedom and X without understanding those logistics.

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#3 – Products and Services

Jenn DeWall:

So, purpose is number one, the planning piece is number two, what’s number three?

Jonathan Goldhill:

So my number three is Products or services. And the reason why is because most playbooks that I’ve read operating system books, whether it’s EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system, or even scaling up, which are both books on my bookshelf that I really believe in Scaling Up – Mastering The Rockefeller Habits- How a Few Companies Make It and Why the Rest Don’t. Traction by Gino Wickman. These are really important. I think valuable playbooks that most people find really useful. For, well with Traction in the case of EOS, really good with people and execution. In the case of Scaling Up- people, execution, strategy and cash. But what seems to be lacking in even the Scaling Up book, which deals with strategy, is the marketing and selling of the products and services and the value of those products.

And so I felt it was really important for next-generation leaders to evaluate the products and services and the relevance of them to their customers and the way it’s being delivered. So, you know, the advent of technology has made systems and communication tools available to us so that you can manage the customer engagement experience, the delivery, or the distribution experience. And I think that next-gen leaders really need to evaluate their product strategy and their service strategy. So it’s fresh, and it’s current, and it’s meeting the needs of the customers that they’re selling to. So I wanted people to understand also about the threats from like Michael Porter’s, Five Forces Analysis. And understand the threats from industry rivals or competitors or the intensity in the industry. And understand, you know, what’s your position in the market. And so that’s the kind of stuff that I wanted to get into in the product section. I just find some of the basics of marketing have been too often missed. And some people just understand the simplest ways to grow a business.

Jenn DeWall:

What do you mean? If I build it, they’ll come, right?

Jonathan Goldhill:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, and so yeah, I mean, it’s like the simplest thing I was ever taught that wasn’t in business school is that there are five ways to grow any business, which is, you know, increase the number of leads that you’re getting, you know, convert more of those leads, which is a sales function, measure, of course, that conversion ratio and increase the average sale size, and increase the frequency of the transactions. And so, you know, by following some of those types of things, you can grow any business, but wow, that’s too simple. They don’t teach you that in business school.

Jenn DeWall:

I just wish that more people again would understand these are the essential components of making and running a profitable business and not kind of leaning on the fact, well, I need this and I had this great idea. And because it came into existence that all of a sudden, it’s going to happen. I think that even in the age of social media, let’s talk about when Facebook was really starting to be used for business purposes. You know, this is probably a decade, more than a decade ago. And I think about it. I have an uncle that is a builder, and, you know, and there’s a lot of competition within the building and the area that they are, and he just could not get behind marketing. And I’m like, how do you think they’re going to find you, like, you have to be able to promote your service. You have to show that you’re a thought leader. And I think, again, there’s the piece of, you know, is it then a competence issue? Is it that people are still afraid of selling? Is that, is it that they just don’t understand what marketing is? Shouldn’t they just hire it to someone else? Like, I don’t know what you see in terms of the common one within that? Is it lack of training on how to do sales, lack of a compromise comprehension of that sales cycle? I don’t know what you see most?

Jonathan Goldhill:

My friend calls small businesses that confuse marketing and sales, and he came up with a term, I think he calls it, “smallketing.” So basically, it’s sales-marketing because they don’t understand the distinction. Sales are really one-on-one face-to-face or phone to phone or whatever, you know, conversion. Marketing is a lead generation function that gets people to know, like trust, buy, repeat, and refer. You know, I’m stealing a page out of John Jantsch’s book. It’s a friend of mine who wrote Duct Tape Marketing, and they’re very different functions. And most entrepreneurs don’t even understand it. And, and by the way, because let’s make this relevant to today, marketing today is for many companies in the service businesses that I’m working in. It’s about finding people to join the company.

Jonathan Goldhill:

So I tell most of my companies that are in the, I work with a lot of landscape contractors, and I tell them like, Hey, take your marketing dollars that you’re spending on promoting your services. Like you don’t need more leads coming in. That doesn’t seem to be a problem like homeowners are at home. They’re dying to get their properties upgraded, fixed, et cetera, like turn your marketing dollars to sell your company to the world or to your community to attract better quality people. That’s where your marketing dollars need to go is, is attracting talent. So, you know, when you attract great talent, then great things happen also. And like, you know, publicity starts to follow, and I have a client that gets almost all their work, but all their business from publicity and word of mouth. And it’s pretty amazing. They don’t have to spend much on marketing whatsoever.

Jenn DeWall:

I have never spent a dollar and like advertising. The majority, even as a coach, that the majority of my bookings, my keynotes all have come from just investing in SEO and knowing how to do that. And, but I think back, and so it doesn’t have to be this, you know, I think a lot of people don’t realize that as long as you have a strategy around that, of what you’re trying to do, how you’re trying to, you can make it happen. You don’t have to just throw money at it. I’m curious – what do you-

Jonathan Goldhill:

And by the way, I’m just guilty as the next person, Jenn, right? Like as a guy who’s been in the coaching business since 2004, I’ve thrown money at so many different ways of trying to build my business. I’ve done it. I’ve done workshops, and I’ve done seminars, I’ve done webinars. I’ve done telemarketing. I’ve done outsourced telemarketing. I’ve done, you know got, I could just keep going on. Networking. And the list goes on. And what I found was, Hey, there were like three core things that worked really well for me in my business for the type of client that I’m going after. And by the way, as I move up-market to better bigger clients, those strategies have to change, but I’ve tried these things. Marketing is sometimes a little bit of a guessing game, but you have to have fun, and you have to have to be willing to experiment with trying new things and doing things differently. Right. If you were still doing direct mail pieces, you might not be having so much success, but then again, you might be having success again because nobody’s doing it. But it’s expensive.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. It’s expensive. And I wanted to ask about that direct mail pieces and the age of the pandemic because people aren’t necessarily going into their business. They might be working from home. So how effective is that strategy, maybe? Or have you seen anything, or is it just kind of a, for some, it’s still effective, and for some, it’s not.

Jonathan Goldhill:

Yeah. You know, direct mail for me was a highly effective strategy. I’ve only deployed it on a few occasions, and it brought very few leads, but the leads that came in converted. And it was because I was able to put so much in an envelope and give them so much to read. I haven’t tried it recently with the advent of email marketing. It just seems like it’s so much cheaper and faster to do that with less risk. So that works well for me for the type of client that I’m going after. But look, I think it really depends very much on whom you’re trying to reach, how to reach them, when and where with what message- it’s complicated.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. So we talked about number one-

Jonathan Goldhill:

And that’s all in the product and services- that’s all in the product section, that piece.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Look, I love this. We’re rocking and rolling. Number one gotta have your purpose and your vision. Number two, you have to have your plan. Number three, make those products and services known to people. What’s number four?

#4 – People

Jonathan Goldhill:

So number four is people. If you aren’t developing your A-team, then you know, it’s really difficult to scale any kind of business. You’ve got to have those core values in place. You have to hire based on those core values because it’s nothing ruins culture more than someone who just doesn’t fit the values. It, you know, it’s like one bad apple, or maybe I should say peach really ruins the whole apple cart. You know, it just, it makes them rotten. So attracting the right people is really important and then selecting the right person for the job to make sure that they, that they fit the position really well. And I spend a lot of time talking about how to find the right person, how to interview them, how to, how to evaluate them during the interview. You know, the old adage hire slowly fire fast. I kind of flesh out more and explain like, how do you hire slowly and why, and what are the tools that you use?

And then once you’ve got that person hired, you’ve got to onboard them into your processes, into your culture. You know you want to create engagement with your people. And so that I talk about as well, you know, what are the attributes of a great leader, because you need to, it’s not just about finding great people. It’s like people want to be led, not, you know, and for you to get people to follow you, you’ve got to level up your skills. And that’s where I get back to like, leveling up your personal, like your health, your wellness, your, you know, your sleep, all that kind of like personal hygiene stuff. But people want to follow leaders of competence, of, of character, of, you know, people who are committed, who are enthusiastic and positive.

And, you know, so you’ve got to level yourself up and in the process of leveling yourself up, especially I find in some family businesses, there sometimes is like old employees that aren’t scaling up with the program. So you’ve got to deal with, you know, people who are poor communicators or have negative communication styles. You’ve got to get rid of unhealthy conflict from the business. And then you need to have a really solid process for making decisions and for like communicating tools. So I’m really big believer that the people part of this- it’s not the be all and end all, but it’s the most important thing.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Well, and if, I think even too, when I, you know, my work with clients is around more of like career and life coaching and the number one thing or the last four years has always been, what’s the mission of that company? And so even just connecting what you do, even if it’s not, you know, something that seems super exciting, like how can you connect that to a deeper purpose? Because of the people that I work with, which are predominantly Millennial and Gen Z, they want that number one. So if you want to attract them, it’s getting really clear on what you’re doing and showing them and inviting them on the journey. And I think a lot of organizations, again, they, they may be operated on that past notion of like, and we’re stable, we’re this we’re that. And that’s not necessarily enough anymore to attract talent. What is number five?

Okay. So number five is priorities. And here’s where I dive into that. Like, time management is really priority management, and priority management is energy management. And so some of the times some of the things that I’ve weaved throughout this talk so far is if you want to first you need to figure out how to prioritize, and you need to prioritize your activities. You can’t do everything at the same time. You’ve got to pick the most important and then get onto the next and most important. I don’t believe that you can multitask. I think Morten Hansen, in his book, Great At Work, talked about like do less, then obsess. So get into your Zone of Genius and figure out, like, what are your priorities and get those things done. And then, then you can figure out what your, where your time needs to be spent because you know, what your priorities are.

Jonathan Goldhill:

Do you know, I like the concept of eating the ugly frog first- Brian Tracy- stealing that page from his book is, you know, take on the most difficult challenges first thing in the day when your energy is the freshest. And so this then gets into energy management, right? Your energy has to be in a good place so that you can tackle your priorities and manage your time. And then you need to help your team be doing the same thing. So they manage their priorities, and they’re working on the most important things first. Otherwise, we can tend to work on the trivial many and forget and ignore the vital few, which are the things that you really wanted to get done, but you didn’t get done because you were so busy with the tyranny of all the other stuff.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, and I just want to give like a, a pleading moment for employees- please be clear on your priorities, because the last thing I want is when maybe you aren’t clear. And so you jump on this thing and that thing, you know, that shiny object syndrome, and that’s so hard to add value if things are constantly changing. So that was just my plug for the employees that are like, let me focus on this and help you prioritize on the thing so we can all be successful.

Jonathan Goldhill:

Yeah, exactly. And you know, in family businesses, they have a unique distinction from other businesses because they need to recognize that not everything belongs in the conversation with employees. So there’s, you know, or managers or leaders. So they need to think in terms of like, Hey, which room should we be in to have this conversation? Is this the family room where we’re just dealing with a family issue? This is between you and me, Jenn, and you know, our siblings, we gotta work this out? Or is this a leadership issue? And the leadership team needs to be aware, this is a management team issue, or this is an employee issue. Like there’s a lot of difference, you can have multiple family members that are stakeholders that might just be an employee, but not an owner. And they shouldn’t be privy to those other conversations necessarily.

So you need to know what room we are in? Like, I don’t think it’s appropriate when family members fight in front of each other when it’s something that is not business-related. We should focus on the problem. Not the people might not make it personal and so super important in sorting priorities. Do you want to get to the next P?

#5 – Processes

Jenn DeWall:

For sure! Number Five!

Jonathan Goldhill:

Which is Processes. And I said, it pretty simple before, you know, you need to have processes that can run in your absence- that people can run in your absence, that you can scale the business. And so you’ve got to have some kind of documentation about how things are done around here. You know, I mean, if everything is in your head, then that’s not going to work. And I basically walked people through how, what’s a simple process to start documenting it. And it’s kind of the same process that I took to write my book. I started by asking like, what are the questions that people need to answer? And then, you know, what’s the organization of those questions. And then what are the sub-questions underneath each one of those? And it’s kind of like you write the chapter, and then you write the outline, then you’re writing the pages of the book. And I think that you know, you need to have that same thing in processes.

Jenn DeWall:

And that’s one that I hear about a lot of people may be getting caught up in is they feel like they don’t get the freedom and independence that they wanted because they don’t have processes to be able to delegate, or share, or show someone else. And so then the whole reason they might’ve gotten into business is the one thing they can’t really enjoy because they don’t, as you said, it’s all up here. All right. Our Final P! What’s our final P?

Jonathan Goldhill:

So, you know, there’s no business without profitability, right? As we said, you know, revenue is vanity. Profitability is sanity. Cash flow is security, and you need to understand the balance sheet also, which is the statement that small businesses just don’t even understand or look at. That’s the real value of your business, on paper. And you need to be at least improving the book value of your business. If you’re in anything, that’s certainly an asset-rich business. And so once you understand the three statements, the balance sheet, the cash flow, the P and L, then we have the ability to look at what’s our return on investment because we have choices. We could take our money and invest it in other companies, you know, we’ve got public markets, stock markets, we’ve got cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin, whatever your flavor is. Oil, gas, you know, you have lots of different places that you’re gonna invest your money.

And you have to ask yourself, like, is investing my money, like a really good return, my getting a return on my investment. I like to think that you should get a return north of 50% annually for an investment in your business because or, you know, I mean, 25 to 30%, that’s not too bad, but, and here’s where you use this. It’s called the DuPont formula. Other people might look at it as a critical success formula. It’s like, it’s your return on equity and your return on assets and your profitability, your profit margin. And, you know, so you can look that formula up, but figure out like, are you getting a 30 or 40 or 50%? Because you have choices, you could just throw your money into Apple. And maybe that would have been a better investment. You could sit at home and watch TV or read a book, or, you know, paint a picture. So we have choices. We should understand. What’s the value of our investment in our business?

Where to Learn More About How to Scale up with Jonathan

Jenn DeWall:

Which I think comes back down to, if you’re not growing, you’re dying as you started. If you’re not thinking about how you’re making money, if you do not understand these key documents that will determine the health of your business, you know, you’re doing yourself a disservice, you’re doing your business, a service like you and your business both need to be growing, or you’ll be dying. Jonathan, how, how do people get in touch with you? How can people get your book? Where, where can we send them?

Jonathan Goldhill:

Great, well, so you can get my book at the website, disruptivesuccessor.com. There’s a link to an Amazon page. You can download a free chapter. You can grab some free tools, and you can get in touch with me through that website, disruptivesuccessor.com. I do have a separate coaching website, which is TheGoldhillGroup.com and a great way to get ahold of me is on LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn. I post a lot. You can see my, listen to my podcasts, connect with me there, and we can have an authentic conversation offline.

Jenn DeWall:

Perfect. Jonathan, thank you so much. How to scale your business to eight figures and beyond. I hope that you are. I hope that everyone listening found at least one nugget of something that they could maybe focus on to just take that next step in stealing their business, getting closer to that freedom. Jonathan, thank you so much for your time and your expertise, sharing it with The Leadership Habit audience today.

Jonathan Goldhill:

Jenn, thanks for being a great interviewer.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Jonathan Goldhill. If you want to pick up Jonathan’s book, Disruptive Successor, you can get that at his website, disruptivesuccessor.com, or you can connect and start a conversation with him by going to TheGoldhillGroup.com. We’re also connecting with him on LinkedIn. It, you know, someone that is running a family-owned business or is an entrepreneur share this episode, share Jonathan’s playbook with them so they can hopefully achieve that ultimate goal of freedom. And, of course, if you liked this week’s episode of the podcast, make sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

 

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Changing Organizational Culture with Steve Frenkiel, President of Dynamic Connections

In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn DeWall sits down with the president of Dynamic Connections and Crestcom leadership development client, Steve Frenkiel, to talk about how you can change organizational culture through leadership.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am sitting down with Steve Frenkiel, the president of dynamic connections. And today, Steve and I are going to talk about how you can change your organizational culture through leadership. And I’m so happy to have Steve with us because he knows, and Steve knows firsthand what it’s like to walk into a new organization and think, how am I going to fit? How am I going to take ownership? How am I going to be this new leader? And what does that organization need to look like? So, Steve, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. It’s really great to have you.

Steve Frenkiel:

Thanks, Jenn. A pleasure to be here.

Meet Steve Frenkiel, President at Dynamic Connections

Jenn DeWall:

Steve, tell me a little bit about your journey. How did you become the president of Dynamic Connections? What did that look like for you? I think sometimes people think about how does someone get to that executive leadership level position, and so many will take different paths. And so I’m so curious to hear what your path was like.

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah. It’s definitely not a typical path. And certainly an interesting one as well. I’ll start from the beginning to give to give listeners some color. So I was an engineer originally by training, studied at McGill. I never actually worked as an engineer, but it always framed my thinking, my approach, my problem-solving. So I really valued that training. I ended up working in consulting for a few years, had a good experience, but realized I didn’t want to really sit on the sidelines of business. So from there, I was career transitioning. And I like to say I I snuck into Harvard Business school. Somehow the admissions made a slight mistake and let me into the program. So I had a really wonderful time and at HBS for a couple of years, getting exposed to lots of different disciplines.

And from there, I ended up going into finance—into a discipline called private equity, which is a field where you buy companies and work to make them better. It was a really good fit for me because of my strong financial skills, and it was still very entrepreneurial. You were working with entrepreneurs and helping them improve their business. I looked at other finance fields and decided on public markets and hedge funds. And, and that just felt way too far from entrepreneurs and business, because even at the time, this was, you know, 15 ago, I knew I had an entrepreneurial flair in me. I certainly it wasn’t going to happen at the time. I had lots of debt to pay off for school, so that wasn’t going to happen. But I knew at some point I could end up being an entrepreneur.

So private equity was a really good way to build a career and build a skillset and see what it takes to build a successful business. So I ended up doing that for a bunch of years— for about eight years— where we bought and grew a number of businesses. I worked with a number of entrepreneurs, and eventually, that itch or that plane sort of started growing. And eight, nine years later, I decided to scratch it. And I spent almost two years looking for the right business to buy. So I was trained. Yeah, I was, I was, I was trained in private equity to look for a good business, and I spent two years looking for a good business. I spoke to and evaluated over a hundred different companies in the Ontario region. Literally over 100, 120. Most of them, I turned down. And off a cold call, I discovered Dynamic Connections, and it was a good company. And the owner was willing to listen, and we got the deal done. And that’s how I became overnight—the President and Owner of Dynamic Connections.

Finding the Confidence to Make a Change

Jenn DeWall:

Which is an incredible story! And I think we didn’t even highlight some of the even challenges that you faced earlier on. Cold calling that many people to get it done! That takes a level of persistence and resilience that I think I just want to acknowledge because that is a big deal. And many people might’ve been after the first few conversations after the first few calls. Is this really where we want to be?  And that discouragement could have crept in. So what you did, it’s just, it’s fantastic. I mean, if I want to flip that back, you took everything that you are great at, your strengths, your experience, and you found the perfect opportunity to be able to let yourself shine, let yourself lead and let yourself apply all of these strengths, experiences, backgrounds, and insights that you had, which is just an incredible feat. So I really want to acknowledge that because that’s a big deal that I’m not sure everyone listening to this would say that they might’ve done the same thing because it’s hard work.

So I’m glad that you came to be. And I also did. I know we talked about this on the pre-call too, but Harvard! You know, I am not an Ivy league school grad. I know that there’s a lot where I think, oh my gosh, it’s Harvard, it’s up there, but you also talked about how people had what we call imposter syndrome there, which I was so surprised to hear. I shouldn’t be because I know that it’s common. Can you tell me a little bit about how you were in this group of people that were likely hyper-competitive, ambitious, driven? How do you sort out your confidence in that environment where I feel like everyone looks like they’re perfect from the outside, looking in, how do you, how do you find yourself and find your confidence and voice in that environment?

Steve Frenkiel:

Listen, it’s very true, Jenn. You’re absolutely right. A number of people, including myself, felt like they were the admissions mistake, and you know, how do we actually get in there? So you felt like, you know, you look around like, you know, it wasn’t supposed to be here and, you know, part of it was like, yeah, I’m not supposed to be here, but I’m going to make the most out of it while I’m here. So yeah, it, you know, in some senses that, that brings that, that sense of appreciation at calibrates people very well to be a little bit more humble and and and level headed. So, you know, lots of very, very talented people, very diverse especially for guys who are coming from, you know, what is a small town, what I call Montreal, not, not not, not a cosmopolitan of some, some of the rest of the world. And so it was a really, really great experience and just a really good personal development opportunity to experience lots of different types of successful people. Cause it’s not, it’s just not one cookie cutter. Everyone was special in one way or another. And it’s almost— sometimes you took some time to figure out I’m like, oh, okay. That’s how that person was special. And so it was yeah, very, very cool experience.

Inspiring a Change in Organizational Culture

Jenn DeWall:

And thank you for sharing that. And for those that are listening, remember if you are judging yourself, if you’re not feeling as confident or if you’re feeling like a fraud or what they are, how they define imposter syndrome, it happens to everyone. You are not alone. I just have to say that because I think, sometimes we might assume that the people at the top are the ones that maybe don’t have it. And we just have to remember, we all are going through it, especially for taking risks, doing something challenging ourselves, which is what brought you to dynamic connections. Tell me a little bit about why maybe you’re and you were so inspired when you took over as president to inspire a leadership culture.

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah, it was, in some sense, it was out of necessity. So remember when we spoke, so the person I bought the business from was an amazing individual, a true visionary leader. But who was as different as I am, as you could be. You know, picture me, I’m a five foot seven, 170 pounds, relatively square guy. And I bought, I bought the business from a guy who was six-foot-two, long blonde hair, drove a Ferrari and partied harder in his fifties than I did in my twenties. So, you know, it was a, it was really a real sort of tale of two cities, a dichotomy of one leader coming in after another leader. So, and we talked about it. Part of that was it almost made it impossible to lead at the beginning because this was a, he was a very, very big personality. When you walked into the room, there was no air left for anyone in that room.

So this was the type of leader that you really, you would stand behind him because it was clear that he was leading and he had a vision even if he was leading in the wrong way. Doesn’t matter. You didn’t know because of the amount of confidence he was exuding. You were sort of following. So he had built an organization around it that way, where there was a number of loyal followers, and there was no air left. And there was no question who was the, who was the leader when that person stepped into the room. And people were following sort of in due order. And

Changing Leadership Styles to Change Organizational Culture

Jenn DeWall:

I just have to say that cause I would be intimidated when you observe that or just hearing that I can picture that presence in walking in and saying, okay, how do I actually, how do I, you know, show them that I am here as a leader too? Like, that would just be a very difficult

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah, really difficult, Jenn. You’re absolutely right. In fact, it comes down to, you know, picture the first few months of this transition. I am, I’m trying to learn the business. So I’m not even an expert in this business. I’ve done a whole bunch of diligence and so forth. Still, it doesn’t mean that I’d spent 10, 20 years in the industry. So I am trying to both learn the business, develop a rapport with people, lead the organization and still have this, you know, the former owner there sort of in the background, where as soon as he’s in the room, there’s no, there’s no air left to lead. And he’s the expert. He knows more about the industry than I do. So it was a very, very uncomfortable situation for me because it was, it was virtually impossible to lead or to learn or to show him vulnerability because I’m trying to learn.

So it was very, very hard. And, and the key there, and we’ll tell, you know, we’ll talk about what I, what I did in terms of changing the leadership culture by necessity. But one of the key decisions I actually made, which some people would’ve thought was crazy after, I think it was four or five months, maybe four months. I asked him to leave. Even though he was the, you know, the godfather who had all the answers, it didn’t matter. I couldn’t grow and lead. With that, there just wasn’t enough air. So that wasn’t an easy conversation, but I asked him to leave because I sort of had some internal confidence that I would figure out the industry, but I needed the room. I needed the space. And I needed the space to grow that I can, I can, I can grow into the leader that the team could rally behind.

So I needed that space, and I needed that. And that was a very sort of important decision. I remember my wife helping me through that decision intensely. She’s not a business person, but just sort of the way it was. And we got through it. And so we at that four or five-month mark, I still didn’t know the business well enough, but I knew enough that I needed that I, I took the space back. And then we changed the leadership style, and then we changed it from having one person with a voice to having one person with a really good strategic vision. I’ve always had very good strategic thought and a good eye for opportunity, but I gave more air to other people who had the ability to take it.

Part of me as an entrepreneur what I’m good at is seeing opportunities. That’s what I believe most entrepreneurs are. There are people who see an opportunity to do something about it. And what I saw was a number of people in the organization that had the opportunity to contribute even more than they were. And so it was, it worked out very well because I changed the culture up upside down from having a big L leader to still, I’m still clearly very clearly in charge, but I’ve empowered a number of individuals to be in charge as well in their own, in their own sort of unique ways. And those were individuals that had the ability for that. And it’s helped. It’s changed the culture night and day from where it was and it, and it it’s good because I couldn’t be the other person. I wasn’t the big L personality person that he was. I couldn’t be that that’s not, that’s not who I was going to be. That’s not how I was going to lead this business. But now we’ve got a number of people in their own sort of unique and special ways who are leading it with a, you know, a Colonel and a bunch of lieutenants instead of a, just one general at the, at the head.

Empowering Your Team to Change Organizational Culture

Jenn DeWall:

There are so many points that I want to touch on there. I mean, first, because there are many people, whether you’re going into an executive leadership role, whether you’re taking over a company or for someone that might be just going into leading a team for the first time. It can be a challenge to be able to feel like you have to, in some way, be the same as that person or replicate that reputation that they might’ve created. And it can feel a little unnerving, especially when, you know, you’re walking in and, you know, they do have that rapport reputation with them of respect and appreciation. So I want to acknowledge like that moment, but you also talked about, you know, getting into it, like what you did to actually transform the culture of dynamic connections. And how you described it made it sound like it was so much easier than what it was, but you did it. You put in the work. So I know that that wasn’t either. It was not that, I guess, like, yeah, we just did that. You didn’t just make people leaders, like there was a lot more of a conscious and deliberate thought process that came around identifying and seeing, okay, now that you’ve cut off the security blanket, which was huge after having that agreement with the former president and saying, you know what, I have to actually step up, be vulnerable and just put me out there even more. Then what was step two? So step two was then to look at your leadership team and the people in your company to say, are they really doing what they’re meant to do? Is that kind of like the first place when we’re talking about how do you change your culture?

Steve Frenkiel:

I think one of the secrets of leadership and empowerment is that people actually want the responsibility. I think we sometimes forget that sometimes you try to take responsibility away from people because you think it’s a burden on them but actually gives them purpose. And so when you give people true ownership and responsibility, they enjoy it. They give purpose and they, they very often, if they have sort of, the basic skills will rise up to that occasion. And so that’s, that was part of the secret sauce where I could identify a number of people who had some basic raw skills. We gave them ownership and responsibility. We coached them. I coached them on decision-making. I didn’t tell them how to

Jenn DeWall:

So important, like from your perspective as a president, why was it so important to give them that ownership?

Steve Frenkiel:

Okay. Because I believe it gives them purpose. I believe that entrepreneurs are a unique set of people that are sort of naturally driven by the pursuit of success. But most people need some sort of professional purpose along the way. And having ownership and responsibility is the purpose and doing a great job gives you that sense of pride and purpose. You, you leave your work feeling proud of what you’ve accomplished. And so when I empowered a number of people to take ownership and responsibility have real responsibility, real accountability, coach them on decision-making cause they were, they, they, they, they might’ve not have had the same structured thought process that I was trained with to make sort of thoughtful and thorough, decision-making never made decisions for them. I really empower them to make the decision but help them coach them along the way.

It made them feel really good about what they were doing. And slowly, over time, developed a cadre of junior leaders. And again— this is in a context where remember— I wasn’t the subject matter expert. All my leaders knew more about transportation, about the technicalities of transportation, about our supplier base about our solutions. And I didn’t, I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up in the industry. I was, I’m an outsider. I’m a former engineer finance guy. So they all had more subject matter expertise. I just helped them coach in terms of decision-making and strategic thought, and basic blocking and tackling of business.

Have Confidence, But Not Arrogance

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, you know, the one thing that I really respect is that it sounds like you were able to really lead by suspending ego. Like it wasn’t about you maybe proving your natural strengths talents, like why you did this. It was about you taking the back seat and maybe observing and listening. And I think there are some people that would be like, what you didn’t have ego don’t most executive leaders have an ego, you need ego to lead, right? You need that to have the confidence of your shareholders, to the people that want the organization to succeed. But I, I love that, that lesson and what you did, Steve, because it’s such an important one is to sit back and just learn and not put the pressure on yourself, which I think a lot of people do. And as leaders to know all the answers to have to know everything, I think a lot of times leaders think, well, if there’s a problem, or if this is going on, I should be able to know everything and have it in my brain somehow, to be able to solve this or think strategically, whatever you want to call it. But you still gave permission to your team to say, I’m learning. That is such a difficult piece within leadership. And I just have to acknowledge it because that’s a big deal. I’m curious about your thoughts on that. Changing organizational culture.

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah. I think both of those points are really important. Confidence is incredibly important. Arrogance and confidence are very different. You absolutely need competence. I needed the self-assured confidence to know that I was going to be successful leading this organization, despite not being the subject matter expert, despite loving less than some of my most junior people, but having the self-confidence to know that I was taking the company in the right direction. So it takes a tremendous amount of confidence. It also takes a tremendous amount of confidence to sort of shut up and let other people lead and give them the opportunity to grow. Sometimes you need the opportunity to make mistakes because you have the confidence to know that you’ll repair those mistakes, but that person needs an opportunity for growth. So yeah, it, confidence is it’s a really, really important trait and it’s also, you gotta be carefully balanced between staying humble so that you stay hungry as an entrepreneur there’s anything can change at any given moment. Companies that aren’t moving forward aren’t progressing, are resting on their laurels will find themselves outdated and beaten by their competition before you know it. So you gotta find a balance between being confident and staying both humble and hungry

Jenn DeWall:

At Crestcom, Steve Shapiro is an author that we had worked with. And one of the things that will always stick with me that he shared is when the pace of change outside of your organization is greater than the pace of change within, that’s when you’re going to be eaten. And I love that message about staying humble because you do have to be attuned to what’s going on. It’s not about always being right or proving yourself, or it’s always about having your ear to the ground to understand what’s going on, so you can make the best decisions.

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Building Credibility to Change Your Organizational Culture

Jenn DeWall:

Steve, let’s talk a little bit about that transition. So you take over, you know, you, you go for it on your own. How did you initially navigate this call or navigate this transition for changing the organizational culture?

Steve Frenkiel:

I think I built some very close allies right on the onset. I identified a few people that were really important to the organization. And I invested heavily into those relationships. That means I invested a lot of my time to help further their careers with certain objectives that they had certain goals that they were trying to accomplish. And so by me investing in them very heavily, explicitly and with good strategic thought and built a very sound relationship, a relationship based on mutual trust. And so, to then all of a sudden, instead of being alone, right, instead of going in there and not having sort of any, small team around you, I slowly had a small team of loyal and dedicated people that I was working together with. So, and from there ended up growing, and my influence started growing and getting more so, but it was really trying to at the onset build a small cohesive team to build that credibility and build a group that eventually can, can I was able to rally the rest of the company behind

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Which is, you know, that’s what we need with change. Right. We need the champions of change. And so your first goal when you got in there, obviously wanting to manage and maintain and grow the business, but then was really focusing on the relationships. You had also talked about starting with really playing to your strengths. What strengths did you lean into during that transition?

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah. Like I said, so I am I’m a good person. I’m good at seeing opportunities and being very strategic, and then executing. So, as I mentioned before, the opportunities that I saw were almost some hidden talents with some individuals that I didn’t think were actually getting tapped into. I saw plenty of opportunities externally, but again, I had to build a really sound house internally before I really grew. Like the first year, I barely added value in terms of growing the business externally, working with customers. I didn’t have enough knowledge base, but I did identify some internal opportunities for some individuals that had skills that could be leveraged in different ways. There was a success that came from our software developer that has now made a tremendous impact on our company, came from our controller, who is a huge asset, incredibly smart and analytical and brought tremendous value both to the finance function in terms of the efficiencies there, but generally for the analytical capabilities of the organization generally. Or one of my best, a salesperson, had natural leadership skills. He was an excellent salesperson and had some natural leadership, which is actually not very common. Most salespeople are better snipers, and they are managers of others, but he was a natural coach. So what does that do? There’s that sales opportunity of hiring more salespeople under this effective sales leader coach who actually the prior owner saw little value in, and he’s my most important contributor right now. So I was good at seeing an opportunity, helping opportunities grow with some coaching and some strategic thinking, some analytical rigor, and we developed some people into a tremendous, tremendous talent.

Tap Into Your Team’s Talents

Jenn DeWall:

It sounds like your ability to identify good or great or not so great business opportunities also extends into your ability to identify talent, which I just think is such great strength, especially being willing to maybe look at someone that maybe others have not connected with for a variety of reasons, right. We know personality differences. It doesn’t matter. We’re human beings. We don’t all necessarily get along, work together, play together in the best way, but you were able to say, actually that individual, like, I think there’s untapped talent. How would the heck did you develop the skill set to be able to identify untapped talent in people? I, it makes sense from a business perspective, because you can take the metrics you can look at, you know, what are, what’s the revenue, what’s our expenses? When you think about people, how in the heck do you do that? That is a true gift.

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah. You know, that’s such a hard question. It’s just, and it’s a lot of experience. It has good judgment. I don’t know that it’s taught or learned. I’m not really sure. Part of it was having that sort of analytical brain that can break pieces apart. Part of it is being really intellectually curious that when you meet people, you sort of trying to understand who they are, why they’ve been successful. And then you’re trying to extrapolate sort of trends and patterns. I interview a ton, and I love interviewing. I feel like it’s like being a detective, trying to really get to know the person and trying to understand what makes them click. It’s a little bit of cat and mouse because, you know, I like to say the candidate’s objective going into the interview is to get the job.

It should really be to figure out if it’s the right job for them, but their only objective is to actually get the job. So they’re generally giving you answers that they think you want to hear. So they get the job, they get the option of the job. Your job as the interviewer is to figure out if you’re the right fit for the job. So you need to decipher through those questions. So, in the years of interviewing and working with people, I think I’ve developed a good judgment on people and their skill sets. A good optimistic judgment, too, in terms of trying to see the best but be critical, understanding what their shortfalls are and not be blind. But I think it’s hard to say what it is, but it certainly takes a lot of practice. And a lot of intellectual curiosity.

Jenn DeWall:

You are using words– and I teach leadership. I live, eat, breathe leadership every single day. And so much of what you’re sharing, Steve, is music to my ears. I’m so happy to see that you are leveraging your strengths and not putting pressure on yourself to be the only bright star in the room. Right. We want everyone to shine bright because that means as a collective group, not only is, is our intelligence greater, but we see different opportunities, making more strategic decisions, solving problems faster, so on and so forth. But then just treating, being curious, you keep staying curious, which is something that at Crestcom, we do teach a lot to people, but it’s not always innate for some. Sometimes it’s really hard to be curious because the initial thinking, I guess, is that black and white, maybe they’re good or bad or they’re right.

Or they’re wrong. But yet it sounds like you were able to be curious in that, which there are so many things that I really admire about what you shared. And so I just want to acknowledge that, because it’s not easy. And you also were sharing it in a way that people might think, like, oh, no, being curious with someone actually requires you to be curious, and just sit down and observe and not make snap judgments that we might be more trained or conditioned to do. It’s to say, what are they missing? What are their passions and purposes? So there’s just so much that I admire about what you shared in terms of that initial transition. I want to talk a little bit about what your first year was like. So you’re walking into the doors. We already know that you’ve parted ways with the prior president. What were some of the big changes that you made upon, like your first few years when you took over that leadership role?

Changing Organizational Culture is a Bumpy Road

Steve Frenkiel:

Listen, you know, my first year was probably the most anxious year of my life. I invested my entire net worth into this company. It was I was looking for a company to buy. The number one priority was finding a good company. This was good company. This was, this was a company that was in an interesting industry, with very good processes, very good use of technology, a strong team and in a fragmented industry. So I identified the opportunity said, yep, this is interesting. This is good. From the time I made that cold call to when we closed was six months. So for anyone who’s done deals before, it will realize that is a very, very fast timeline. And that’s because I saw something interesting there. And the owner put an ask on it on the business. I saw something interesting. I basically hit his ask and got a deal done. I was a finance guy. I’d never run a company. I never had a team below me. I had some sort of innate confidence that I could do it with, with some hunger and grit. But I didn’t know what I was doing. I explained to you the first few months of that transition where I had some stress with the prior leader. And then, on top of that, I didn’t, I didn’t actually mention two months after I said goodbye to that leader, we lost our biggest customer. So—

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s paint the picture. You’re the big person in charge, right? The president, you take it over. You say the former owner can leave. And then, all of a sudden, I want to paint this picture for our audience. You lose your biggest customer. This is the, oh my gosh. Like what?

Steve Frenkiel:

And there is as much anxiety as you can have. It’s a, is it with the sort of having bet the farm still having, not having yet a good handle on the business. And I lost the biggest customer, and it was a very, very trying time. Losing the customer wasn’t any fault of our own. It was a little bit of just bad luck. It wasn’t a service failure. It wasn’t a failure on our end. It wasn’t being out wanting to just, I would say to simply simplify some bad luck, a little bit of geopolitical bad luck. I lost the biggest customer and said to myself, well, I’ve got a problem here. And that’s where I just sort of put pedal to the metal and probably hadn’t worked as hard and put in all our focus on sales.

And I became a number one salesperson because that’s what entrepreneurs do. Do they just do what needs to get done? And we were losing lots of sales. And so I became a salesperson, and I went out and saw every single one of our customers, a couple hundred of them looking for opportunities to grow the business. We bounced back. We had a small customer end up being bigger than our largest customer that we had lost, yeah. And through, through mining opportunities and presenting really professionally, we took over some business, and they actually asked us to take over the business. We mined it, and then they asked us to take it over. And we grew from there. So that initial scare at the very beginning of a deal, which was very, a very dangerous, curious time when you have sort of high leverage and debt service requirements.

We got through it really through some plain old hustle, like it was just some blocking and tackling hustle. And amazing support I had at home with my wife, who was just sort of steadfast and supportive along the way and didn’t get nervous at all. Even though I told her I took all of her money to do this. Yeah. I’ll tell you a great story about, about my wife. She’s, she’s been a rock that the, you know, the night or the, maybe the week before I closed this deal, I think we’re, you know, we’re out for a quiet dinner. I just say to her, I’m like, Hey, you know I’m taking all of our money to do this. Like, I just want to make sure you’re up for it. It’s like, you’ll be fine. I’m like, are you sure? She’s like, you’ll be fine.

So, you know, having that confidence of your partner in your corner, I can’t emphasize enough how important that is. And so we just got through it, it just took some hustle, really took some hustle. It made me much better because I literally became, I became a salesperson and a very effective salesperson for that matter because that’s what the business needed at that point. And we grew out of it, and we grew ever since. We came out of that. We grew past that from that loss. I mean, we’ve grown, ever since we’ve gotten better as a company, tremendously better as a company. Our technology, I put up against almost anyone in the industry. I’m incredibly proud of what we’ve been able to accomplish. And I think, I think we, the future is brighter than the, than the past, because we’re, we’re so much a better company than we were five years ago that I think we’re going to see even more opportunities. So, yeah, it was, it was a very, very challenging year emotionally, but that’s what happens with challenges. We all know you. If you get, if you come out the other side, you’re going to come out better. And so that’s, that’s what happened to both me personally and to us as an organization. Yeah.

Develop Your Leaders to Transform Your Organization

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, the bottom of the lows are always the opportunity to just get into the climb. And when you’ve climbed, like the top is that much better. So you decided to move forward. And one of the things that you did was you worked with Crestcom, and you brought Crestcom leadership to your organization. For those that are unfamiliar again, with what Crestcom for a one-year-long leadership development program with debriefs and monthly coaching sessions, what made you think that that was going to help or what made you decide to pursue or invest in that in leadership training?

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah, listen, I think you know, part of the secret, again, of getting the most out of your people is to invest in them and to give them opportunities to grow. Everyone wants to grow. Every time I do an interview with a new candidate, I talk about growth opportunities. People want purpose in their lives, and they want to feel like they’re evolving as individuals and as professionals. And so the opportunities, being able to provide opportunities for growth in and of itself are effective because you’re growing them because they’re developing better skills, but it’s also, you’re, you satisfy their desires for growth. So it’s a twofold benefit. So finding ways to invest in your people is a constant strategic objective of ours. We came across Crestcom, and we love the concept and the format of teaching some core principles and then having them debrief together on them.

My people still say I have two cohorts say that the debriefs are probably better even than the actual content because that’s where they’re really putting into practice what they’ve learned. And as we know, if you learn something, you don’t do anything with it. It’s actually really gone. Like if you learn something from a textbook and you didn’t do it, did it change your life six months, 12 months later? Unless you did something with it, it didn’t, it might’ve felt good at the moment, but it didn’t. So so the sticking part of what we have, what they learn, is in the debriefs that I ended up participating in, whereas a team, we’ve coalesced together, we dissect some principles of leadership that are called pearls of wisdom. And then we actually put some practices in place, and that’s what makes it stick and actually helps us improve as an organization. And a number of things I can point to across our company that has Crestcom written all over because they were sources, and they were ideas that were sourced through our to our debriefs.

How Crestcom Helped Dynamic Connections Make Positive Changes

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, can you share some of those examples of maybe something of how Crestcom has helped your organization?

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah. A number of them, the expression of “promote, don’t pollute.” We use all the time in terms of what comes out of your mouth. Are you promoting a positive culture, or are you polluting? And to be sensitive to what and how we speak. We do. We do a, and it’s so obvious. I don’t know how everybody, every company, doesn’t do it. We do a four o’clock Friday company-wide huddle every week, every week, we go, and we huddle the entire company. We’re almost 30 people, some people remote, some people together. And we talk about the results from the week. We talk about strategic imperatives. We talk about what’s going on. We talk about hires. People love people, want to feel informed. And we’ve discovered some of that through our learnings with Crestcom, that people have a very strong desire to be better informed. We thought we were doing a pretty good job about it with our various communications, but it actually wasn’t sufficient.

And so we put in place a standing four o’clock, all hands huddle that we do really fun things with, like, we sort of spice it up. It’s not always the same thing we have. Sometimes it’s a problem of the week that we have someone talking about what was the problem in the week and how did you resolve it? Because our life is problems and transportation. Sometimes we have the save the day of the week, like who saved the day for a customer of the week. Sometimes we have the technology initiative that we’re talking about, and the latest one will be, we dig into and explain it to people. So it’s been a that’s been a, an amazing and almost like silly that it’s so obvious that we didn’t think of it ourselves, but that was something that a hundred percent we’ll continue to do. And we continue to sort of spice it up, but to find a regular and meaningful and thoughtful way to communicate and keep your team informed. It has been a major difference, and it was, and we did it before COVID, so you can imagine how important it was through COVID to have that discipline.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I am feeling like I’m having a, you know, a leadership infatuation moment. I love what you did with your people, Steve, like a four o’clock standing huddle on a Friday. And I like even talking about the problem of the week and getting them to think about how, how can they also contribute to solving problems? How can they make revisions or adaptations to maybe streamline a process? I just love the inclusivity that you create. And again, I’m trying to draw out these themes just so people can hear that it’s not, it’s not a, “just a.” It wasn’t “just a” huddle. That huddle is the opportunity to maybe bridge some gaps in terms of transparency or more communication. That huddle is the opportunity for people to feel seen and heard. That huddle is an opportunity to process our mistakes or the challenges of the week. Like, and so that’s why you’re probably like, why is Jenn just saying this back to me? But it’s because it actually is much more than what I think the average person might realize what that does. A standing huddle does so much for your culture than what you might realize. And how long does that huddle take? And you do fun things with it too. Like how long does that huddle take?

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah, we try not to have it go more than 30 minutes. We really track we’re sensitive to people’s Friday afternoon times. And we try to keep it, like, keep it fresh. As a company, an organization, and a culture is like I say, it’s a living, breathing organism. It is. It needs food. It needs nourishment. It needs variety. Like, just like you can’t eat the same thing every day. So does a culture. It can’t take the same thing every day. So, you know what we do in the huddles now isn’t the same thing we did a few months ago. Because you have to keep it fresh and still be pursuing the same call overall strategic objectives. So yeah, we do lots of different things. We do, you know, we, we, we used to do like the during COVID you know, during the height of COVID we were working in the office, we brought people back, we were wearing masks, we were sanitizing, we’re socially distance.

We, we used to have, you know, a prize of the week for the person who was the most positive person of the week, they ended up getting the bell. You know, and that bell, every time that person rang that bell, everyone would have to sanitize their hands. So we were trying to make sure that everyone sort of stayed safe. So you have this bell going off, and that person will have that bell have that control. It was just, you know, a bunch of little sort of gimmicks to keep things fresh and sometimes just lighthearted sometimes actual actually sort of sound business, continuous improvement principles. And some things, things just to keep things lighthearted and fun. So you gotta, you gotta find that balance, but it is, it is really, it’s an opportunity to discuss, keep the team informed and keep things fresh.

Words of Wisdom- Give People a Chance, They’ll Surprise You

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Steve, what would be, so in closing, knowing that we have to wrap up what would be your words of wisdom, right? We talked about a lot of different things in terms of what you did to change the culture in terms of, you know, being vulnerable, being curious, allowing yourself to not be the expert and allowing yourself to learn, leveraging people’s strengths. What would be your advice to someone that might be new to leadership, new to taking over an organization? What would you say to them?

Steve Frenkiel:

I would say I think most people will be surprised at what someone can accomplish when you put them in a position that you think they might not actually qualify for. I think a lot of people cherish and relish the opportunity, as I said before, for true ownership, responsibility, accountability, and it actually gives them purpose. And I think we all can get surprised by trying people out and actually giving more, giving them more responsibility than you might think they can actually handle and watching them strive and live up to the challenge. I’ve seen that a number of times where a number of people have, we’ve tried them, we’ve given them opportunities, and they’ve stepped up. And I think it’s a win-win. It’s a win for everybody. It’s a win for you as an employer that you feel good. You’ve given someone an opportunity for growth. It’s a win for them because they grew into it. It’s a win for the company because the company now has a more sophisticated and empowered individual. So I think giving people opportunities may not actually be ready for. Actually, I believe more often than not can surprise all of us.

How to Connect with Steve Frenkiel

Jenn DeWall:

Steve. I very much appreciate your people-first approach. I just think there’s so much that other people can learn if they truly want to create a better culture, a more engaged culture, and just a place where people feel valued, Steve, how can people connect with you? How can they hire you? How can they hire Dynamic Connections? Tell me that.

Steve Frenkiel:

Yeah. Yeah. If they want, you know, a little commercial for us, we have a couple of hundred customers and may two to 300, and I would say probably 95% of them will tell, we’ll tell you that we’re the best company they’ve ever dealt with so if anyone wants to experience best-in-class services, they can reach out to Dynamic Connections for their the third-party logistics.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much deeper taking your time. I know that you’re busy, but just to share with us and also be vulnerable about the fact that, Hey, it’s not always easy. It’s a scary place, because again, sometimes we don’t get to peek into maybe the executive leadership experiences and hear them in that way. So I just really appreciate you sitting down and sharing with us and being open and vulnerable, and talking about what we can do to create great cultures. Thank you so much for your time.

Steve Frenkiel:

Absolutely! Thanks, Jenn!

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was a great conversation with Steve Frankiel. And if you want to connect more with him, you can head on over to dynamicconnections.com; Dynamic Connections offers cost-effective and efficient warehousing solutions to meet all of your inventory and fulfillment needs. It was a great conversation, and I loved hearing about how Steve uses leadership to change organizational culture. If you enjoyed this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. And of course, if you’re interested in changing your organizational culture through leadership contact Crestcom.com. We would love to help you develop your leaders.

 

The post Changing Organizational Culture with Steve Frenkiel, President of Dynamic Connections appeared first on Crestcom International.

Achieve Behavioral Change by Shifting Your Patterns with Adele Spraggon

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with top  behavioral change expert, Adele Spraggon. Adele is an award-winning author, thought leader and international speaker and trainer. In 2020, she was awarded the Woman of Inspiration award. And in 2021, she was recognized as the top behavioral expert of the year. Huge accolades! Her book, Shift: 4 Steps to Personal Empowerment, has won three awards and is sweeping the globe, transforming how people are setting and achieving their goals. I hope you enjoy Adele and my conversation as we talk about how to repattern and reprogram your brain, as well as at the end, talking about how organizations are now supporting this effort too.

Meet Adele Spraggon, Award Winning Author and Behavioral Change Expert

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am sitting down with behavioral change expert Adele Spraggon. Do you know who she is? If not, you need to know who she is. She is a behavioral change expert. What does that mean for you at work? Well, she can help you develop greater or better patterns, better re-wiring. So you can be the best leader that you can be. Adele, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. I’m so happy to have you.

Adele Spraggon:

Thanks, Jenn. Lovely to be here.

Jenn DeWall:

So, Adele, let’s, how do you even become, like what, what does the journey of a behavioral change expert look like? How did you come to be interested in this subject, and what do you do today with organizations?

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah, that’s a great question. My background is in personal development. So I worked for one of the leading personal development companies in the industry. And I did that for about 15 years, Jenn. And the problem was is that everything that I was teaching in terms of mindset and positive thinking and affirmations and to get to your comfort or get past your comfort zone. None of it worked for me. So I was teaching this and fully believing in it. But at the same time, I wanted my own entrepreneurial venture, and I started three of them, and I quit three of them, one after another. And so, every time I got to the brink of success, I would just turn tail. I would run. There was no amount of affirmation, positive thinking, mindset, pushing past your comfort zone that could get me over that hump. And so I started to ask myself, okay, I said to myself, this cannot solely be me. After 15 years of doing this, there is something off with our operating instructions. So I went to University, I got my master’s. I wanted to study the human brain and how we think, and how our mind actually works. And sure enough, I discovered that we were using the wrong operating instructions. And so, I created a new set of operating instructions. I’ve been teaching that for 10 years. The results are remarkable, and that is how I became a behavioral change expert.

What are “Patterns”?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And I love that. And I know we’re going to talk about it, too. Just, you know, that none of them, I’m sure there are some listeners right now that can relate in the sense that all of those personal development books, you know, they, they give me all these tips, mantras tools, but for some reason, they’re just not working. And I love our conversation because it’s really going to get into understanding how your brain is patterned and how those patterns can impact, you know, and determine how you react in a situation versus at that subconscious or unconscious level versus maybe how you want to, or what you need to do to repattern. Because as you say, in multiple parts in your book, you know, mantras aren’t necessarily the effective thing to get you the behavioral change that you want to see. Just maybe from starting from like a scratch or a foundational point, what are patterns?

Adele Spraggon:

Well, that’s a great question. So if you think about your brain, our human brain is locked behind this bony skull, in it’s in this dark and silent room, and it has no actual connection to the outside world. The only thing that our brain has to go on is these electrical impulses that are flying through these neural pathways, right? And each of those electrical impulses delivers a particular experience of the world around us. So we think that we’re relating to the actual situation we’re in, but we’re not. What we actually see, feel, hear, think, and smell is given by and neural pathway that pre-exists in the brain. So if you think about your brain in that way, you start to see, oh, hang on a minute. All of this, looking at the outside situation that I’m in— all of this— how do I change my way of communicating. All of this, how do I become a better leader? Just working on fixing what is going on around us or fixing what our thoughts are. That’s actually not where everything is originating, and it’s originating in those pre-existing channels that we have to address first if we’re actually going to make effective change.

Jenn DeWall:

I like the initial distinction that you made in terms of your brain isn’t connected to the outside world. It’s not, you know, physically connecting to it. Everything that it gets is the data that you put into it, through your experience, through a host of things. Yeah.

Adele Spraggon:

The best way to see the brain is by predicting or making the best guess as to what is going on around it. Right?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. So your brain is essentially just based on what you’ve programmed into it; it’s then having a response for you. At what age are we starting to actually program in kind of these, these patterns? I mean, is that just something that you’ve had patterns, your whole life? It just started there. Because it feels like there’s the age where we don’t notice that the patterns are being formed and that all of a sudden, we find ourselves, maybe not liking our job, overreacting to a situation. And that’s when we start to be like, oh, could there be something done? And I think even most people don’t even look there. They again look for the mantras. So when did the patterns begin?

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So unlike other animals, which are born intuitively knowing what to do in this world, human beings are born a blank slate. So we enter this world, and we very, very quickly have to piece together patterns in our brain because patterns take action. Without an act, without a pattern, a person will not have action. Okay. And that’s important to remember. So from the moment, we’re born, every situation that we get through that we survive, we get to the next situation. The brain just takes whatever was happening at that time and just stored it away for future use. So very, very quickly, this brain is piecing together patterns. And a lot of our patterns are created before the age of five, six years old. Then throughout childhood, we continue to create these patterns. In adolescence, there is a massive burst of pattern creation again.

But by the time we get to adulthood, around the age, 27, 28, that pattern creation starts to slow down. Now that does not mean that we did not have the capacity to be wire—one of the most amazing findings that are coming out of neuroscience. So we’ve known for a number of decades is that the brain is constantly re-wiring itself. It is. It has what is term plasticity when it’s always trying to upgrade itself. The problem is two-fold. One, once you have a pattern for a situation, the brain prefers to rely on that pattern rather than creating a new one because it’s the fastest route to action. That’s all the brain cares about

Jenn DeWall:

Efficiency.

Adele Spraggon:

That’s, that’s what it’s into right now. If you hit a situation where you don’t have a pattern or that pattern that you do have doesn’t line up with the situation, then your brain will re-wire. But at this point, it happens spontaneously— what I like to teach as a method to take that from spontaneity to happening systematically so that when you’re in a situation that doesn’t work for you, you can upgrade the brain on demand. And that’s where we’re going in the future.

How do you create Behavioral Change by Shifting Patterns?

Jenn DeWall:

How does working with brain patterns, you know, thinking about brain patterns, knowing that we just talked about other personal development methods that people have tried and that you found? I know that I found them too. Not all of them work. Right? I know in the book you talk about mind over matter, like what stuff doesn’t work, but how does working with brain patterns different from the traditional approach of maybe working with someone on personal development methods or standard or the more, I guess, popular personal development methods that you see?

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. So you literally step out of one identity into another. So I’m going to give you an experience from my life. When I repatterned my pattern for quitting, so let me just describe what was going on because that might help. So every time I was, as I said, I started a new business. I was super excited initially. And that excitement was given by a neural pathway in my brain by a pattern that pre-existed in my brain. I’m very creative. That also is a pattern in my brain, and then I would be going along this path and then boom, I would hit this boredom, and I’d be going, what is going on? Okay, great. The question is not what is going on. Please. Don’t ask yourself that question. The thing you need to say to yourself is, oh, I have a pattern that is somehow hitting boredom when I get to this stage on the path. That’s what I have to say to myself.

So what did I do? Well, knowing it’s a pattern, you can then go in and re-wire the brain. So as to remove that boredom. So now what happens? Well, I literally stepped out of one identity in which quitting was my only option into another identity in which you just don’t quit. There’s no need to force yourself. There’s no need to push yourself past. There are no mantras required. There’s no positive thinking required, or it is just, oh, okay. I was this way. I no longer have that pattern. I am now this way because I am now a brand new identity,

Jenn DeWall:

That is powerful to be able to think about stepping in from one to another. And when I think about, you know, brain development, this is maybe more of a curiosity question. So knowing that the brain is constantly, you know, or it has the possibility to create new patterns, what’s the commonality between our patterns and the personalities that we have. Because as you were talking and sharing like, Hey, I have a tendency to get maybe bored easily. Is it that some of us are looking at what our personality style is instead of thinking about what’s our pattern or because you’re, and maybe it’s because this is just top of mind because it was a topic we just taught at Crestcom, but it is interesting because in personality styles, you know, the notion is that that’s something that’s fixed. But if we look at it in the form of patterns, like maybe my personality style, you know, I hate being bored. But if I look at that as just a pattern for how I perceive the world, that would be a different approach. And it would cause me to find different solutions because I wouldn’t be mining it from the perspective of personalities. That’d be mining it from the perspective of patterns. Is this too conceptual, Adele? Am I going too far? Like in terms of even how this contributes to the personalities or the types of leadership styles that we have.

For Lasting Behavioral Change, Let Go of Blame and Shame

Adele Spraggon:

I love this question because we live, Jenn, in a world of blame and shame. Do you know what I mean by that?

Jenn DeWall:

Tell me because I have my own experience that feels blame and shame, but I want to hear it at the broader level. I’m a great blamer and shamer for myself.

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. And aren’t all of us, frankly. Right? We are so quick to say there’s something wrong with me. I can’t do this. Something incorrect about how I’m doing this. Okay, great. How did we get to there? Because we have been taught that we are a personality and identity, a self. You’re being taught that there is an authentic self that you need to find. You have been taught that when you’re doing something wrong, it is because there is something wrong with you. I like to say in life, there are problems. Life is a series of problems. One after another. Now that’s not bleak.

That is life. Right. But how we’re not taught to see life in that way. Do you know how you’re taught to see problems? Problems are mistakes. I did something wrong. Right? Okay. So when we start to play in the world of patterns, when you see that, the only thing that our brain is- is these neural pathways, these electrical impulses. And that’s all it is. Right. Thank you. You can start to say to yourself, and again, this isn’t going to sound bleak, but I’m going to have to re reword it or re-flip it. There is no identity here. There is nothing that is Jenn. There is nothing that is Adele. There are just patterns, and it is patterns all the way down. And now there’s huge freedom and empowerment in that. It’s like, oh, okay. I am arriving as somebody who is bored, that is very different than I am a bored person. I am arising inside this pattern as somebody who is bored. And I have a technique, a tool to repattern that now who will I be? Whoa, who knows. And that’s amazing because who you’re going to be then in the future is wide open. And it’s like, there isn’t one singular path that you have to walk down and correct as you go; it’s the future is just, who are you going to be? Let’s find out!

Removing Old Patterns Without Judgement

Jenn DeWall:

See, I don’t necessarily see that as bleak. Like, you know, an opportunity within to say, you know, what, if something is not working for me today, let’s find a solution. Not necessarily the mantras, but let’s examine and be curious about the pattern. Let’s figure out, you know, what the commonality is in there. And then how do we address that? I love that approach. So I don’t see it as bleak. I say it. I see it as, you know, taking responsibility that we can impact that.

Adele Spraggon:

And can I change one word?

Jenn DeWall:

Please do you’re the expert

Adele Spraggon:

Please do. You said I think he used the word correct or change. No. How about we just remove it? Like, that’s really powerful. How about we stop trying to fix ourselves because there’s nothing to fix. There’s nothing broken. You are a pattern maker. Your brain is a maker. That is how it works. All right. Some of those patterns right now are obsolete. They’re old, and they were aligned with a different situation at one point in your past. They no longer align with who you want to be today. How about we just go in there and remove that.

Jenn DeWall:

I would love that. Can you do that? I have so many different things. Could you help me be less judgmental? I mean, you talked about the period of blame and shame. Like yeah, I am an overly. I’m one of those people. That’s extremely ambitious. But at the backend, I completely kicked my own butt. Every single time I make a mistake, I do something wrong. Maybe you say the wrong answer. Even though I just didn’t know, and I was doing my best. And if you could give me a tool to say, Jenn, you actually don’t have to respond in that way. In this life. You can think of identified new patterns that help you like that is a new lease on life. That is not bleak. That is an opportunity for how you want to spend your precious time here. Am I right?

Adele Spraggon:

Exactly. Exactly. We are not fixed personalities. We’re not fixed beings. We aren’t fixed as in stable, as in static. We are patterns that are just constantly evolving and changing or ought to be. There is only one problem on this planet, and that is nobody is taught us how to upgrade an old pattern that no longer works. That’s it.

What Patterns do Leaders get Stuck In?

Jenn DeWall:

They just give you the tool. They give you the mantra. What do you mean? No, one’s taught you just push through it! Fake it till you make it, Adele! I mean, Right? That’s the solution that we have. So let’s go back to the basic level. Like how do patterns work? So how do they work in the brain, or what’s happening? And then we can go into talk about some, of them. Maybe ones that you’ve seen in your experience that maybe are typical leadership patterns that leaders might have.

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. So I’ll give you an example, which is in my book. But this is a really amazing example of how leadership patterns show up when they don’t work. And then when they work. And so I worked with one of my participants, her name is Rose, and she’s given me permission to share this story. And she was recently hired in a nonprofit organization. And one of her job responsibilities was running the meetings, the weekly staff meetings. Well, she noticed very, very quickly that these staff meetings would be derailed often. Okay. And once she was able to notice, because she was aware, she had a lot of personal development background. What she was aware of was that she was allowing these meetings to get derailed because the men in the meetings were extremely powerful, and she was intimidated by them. Now, how would typically a leader be taught to deal with that?

Well, a number of different ways, right? One way would have been learned, go to the men and ask them to cooperate. Tell them what you’re feeling. Tell them this is not going well. Let’s talk about this. Let’s find a way to cope, right? Okay. Not effective. And I’ll come back to why. The second way she might have dealt with it, and it’s gone and complained to her boss or fired a couple of these men. She was the manager, after all. Right, like got him or her to deal with it and still not affect him. And I’ll come back to why the third way may have been to get more, get more leadership training, right? Be a better communicator, learn how to deal with those, those meetings better, still not effective. I’ll come back to why. All of these things are partly may work, may not work, but Rose at least knew about patterns.

She had started working with me, and she knew that there were brains in her pattern, sorry, patterns in her brain that were causing her particular actions, behaviors, and beliefs. Now, what were those? Well, we can actually say, but here’s what we knew. We could see the result. The result was the meetings were getting derailed. Great. That’s where Rose started. Because I’d like you to think about your brain as an iceberg at the top of the water are all of your actions, all of your behaviors, all of your beliefs under the water, we are going to place those patterns. Patterns give rise to actions, behaviors, beliefs, in Rose’s case. She could see that whatever she was doing was not keeping these meetings on track. Fantastic. That’s where we started. I gave her the tool to remove those patterns, okay. To stop being intimidated by these men.

And now what happens? Well, the very next meeting, she goes in, and the meeting runs smoothly. The men paid attention. One of the main men came up to her right after the meeting. He said great meeting. What happened? Well, did she stand a little straighter, for example? Was she stopping conversations in their track? Yes, of course, she was doing all of these things, but not because she knew to do these things, but because her pattern was now aligned with the meaning. She was now a different person who led the meetings differently. And that’s what makes pattern-making so effective. She literally stepped out of that identity in which she was intimidated into another identity in which she just wasn’t. And at that point, everybody around her changed. That’s powerful leadership.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. That’s powerful leadership. And before I comment on that, I do want to say that for those that are listening, we are talking about some pieces and tools and ideas that are from Adele’s book, Shift: The Four Steps to Personal Empowerment. And so that’s the book that we’re referencing, and we’ll let you know how you can get that at the end of the show. But I love that option of stepping from one identity into another, and you know, the, what speaks to me when I even think about that end outcome or feeling like maybe she’s not heard the meetings are being derailed. You know, I think of one thing, and this is probably a little bit vulnerable, but if anyone has gone through trauma, you might know. One experience that I had to work through very much when I was early on in my career.

Any time there was an authoritative figure, typically a man, and it’s a result of my childhood. I would become meek. I would probably sweat profusely. I would cower like a child. I hated being seen. And I just lost. I could be the most competent person, five minutes before that in a conversation with someone else. And then the second that that executive leader came into the room, it completely changed how I even showed up. And so when I hear that, that took me such a long time to even create an awareness around why I did that, you know, that’s therapy, right. To understand what my challenges were in. Gosh, I feel like you’re giving a tool to people that, you know, by even focusing on what do you do or what’s the outcome? Do you start them with curiosity around, like, why do you think that curiosity? Like, why do you think you’re getting this outcome? Is that the next step? Is it kind of that curiosity notion?

For Permanent Behavioral Change, First Identify the Problem

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. Well, the beautiful thing about knowing how our brain works is we don’t actually need to know the solution. All we have to do is identify the problem, which is really powerful. So how did I work with Rose? Well, the first thing she looked out was okay. The meetings are going off the rails. So I said to her, all right, what is between you and the goal you’re trying to accomplish? So she said, well, I’d love these meetings to go on track. I would love these men to listen to me. And to have them stick to the strategy that I’m trying to do. I said, perfect. So what’s between you and that? She said, well, frankly, you know, like every time one of them glares at me, I just shrink. I said, perfect, that’s your behavior. You’re shrinking into yourself. Right. She said, and then I giggle. I do this most stupidest thing.

I said, good. That’s, that’s your action. You’re giggling when you shouldn’t be right. And then she said, oh my gosh. And I have this belief that I just looked like a fool up here at the front of the room. I said, wonderful. That is your belief. So that’s fantastic. That’s where we start now. I said to her under each of those, then,  runs a pattern. And our job is just to remove that pattern. So I gave her the four-step repatterning technique, which is in my book. And she just worked on removing each of those patterns over the course of the week. Now, as she comes into the room, again, she is no longer somebody who feels like she’s making a fool of herself. She’s no longer somebody who giggles. She’s no longer somebody who is shrinking and is intimidated, right. Because, you know, I always say to people, there’s no logic in patterns. They were created. When you were little, you didn’t have to know the originating incident. All you have to know is the result that is arising today. But you know, they worked at the time. Being intimidated by authority figures in her case was probably the correct thing to do, to shrink that, to be small. Great. That, that point when she was a kid that worked really well. Today, it just no longer works, not good or bad. It’s just, oh, there’s a pattern that just no longer works. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I just, I’m eating this up. Like what our typical, so that one is pretty, you know, I love that example. Do you feel like there’s got to be just a host, right? Based on our own uniqueness of complex patterning that we all have. And I’m curious about your experience. I know you work with organizations. You work with individuals. What are typical leadership patterns that you’ve observed that people might have, maybe at a higher level?

If You Have a Goal, You Need a New Pattern to Achieve It

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. So, you know, I mean there, every person is unique because of our, all of our patterns are unique. So typically, though, there are leadership patterns that we want to achieve, right? So effective communication. Effective creative solutions, being able to guide your staff through or your employees through, to those effective solutions. These are all things that we want. So let me give you new operating instructions. Okay, guys? The first thing you want to do is set your goal. So you’ll have a leadership goal or something that the team is trying to create together. There’s a vision. Fantastic. Your next job is not to ask, how do I get to that goal? Your next job is to ask, well, what is between me now and that goal? So let me just back up for a moment. If you have a goal, it is a sure sign that you do not yet have the patterns to accomplish that goal. Okay.

Jenn DeWall:

If you have the goal, it’s a sign that you do not have the patterns to accomplish the goal. Okay.

Adele Spraggon:

Does that make sense?

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t know. Like if its the goal, you would think that well, if I, you know, if I think that I can do it, so in my head, I got, I’m not versed in this. So in my head, I’m like, no, because if you think that you can accomplish it, or you can accomplish it, but I want to hear that. So if you have the goal, it doesn’t necessarily mean you have the patterns to support it?

Adele Spraggon:

That’s right. If you had the patterns, it wouldn’t be a goal. It would be a realization. It would be an accomplishment.

Jenn DeWall:

Ah, okay.

Adele Spraggon:

So it’s the fact that you have a goal that immediately tells me you lack the patterns to get to that goal. Great. That’s where we start. So your next question is, all right, why do I not have that goal today? Now you’re going to come up with a list of beliefs, a list of behaviors, a list of actions. And it might be as simple as, I don’t know the steps to take. Great under there, there lies a pattern. It might be as simple as well. I haven’t communicated that goal. Great under there, there lies a pattern. And so we just take this list of what you’re doing, what you’re not doing, what you’re believing, what you’re not believing, what you’re behaving as, what you’re not behaving as just simply recognize that under each of those, there’s a pattern remove each one. Then you will take a step towards your goal.

Where Do We Start Making Behavioral Changes?

Jenn DeWall:

That sounds– you know, because it is so layered, right? The layers of an onion. So how do you begin to, I guess, prioritize the pattern, you know, the one that you think, cause if we’re examining it and we’re finding, well, there’s a pattern into why I didn’t communicate it, or there’s a pattern as to why I haven’t done this. Is there some type of a hierarchy that we have to use when identifying the pattern to help us understand like this is your starting point. Maybe it’s my, you know, I’m just thinking of where’s the origin, what’s the start. And when it is that complex, how do you even begin to start processing all of that and say, where do I begin to actually like turn the page on this and actually go forward in exploring that path. Is there a way that you recommend people in terms of how you prioritize your patterns in terms of this is the one that is worth and necessary for you to change versus this is one that’s, you know, okay for the moment, or whatever?

Adele Spraggon:

That’s a really great question. I do a call that I call a deep-dive call, which is really identifying the actions, behaviors, beliefs that are the top of the iceberg. And the reason I do that is that when we get to the world of patterns, when you drop below the water, Jenn. Patterns are easy to identify. So I’m just going to give everybody, how do I identify a pattern? Okay. Yeah. A pattern is an intertwined physical sensation, emotion, and thought. When the three aspects of our being come together, it causes a particular action, a particular behavior, a particular belief. Okay. So we can identify, okay, what’s working and what’s not working based on how you feel, what you think and how your body is reacting to that situation. And if you’re empowered, confident, optimistic, positive, creative, brilliant, you probably have a pattern that works. If you’re depressed, anxious, scared, angry, you probably have a pattern that doesn’t work.

And that’s, that’s the only difference, right? Not good or bad, just one works, one doesn’t work. Okay, great. So when we get to the world of patterns, the world gets really simple. What am I feeling? What am I feeling then? What am I thinking? But at the level of action-behavior-belief, which is where we are taught to experience the world, that’s where things get complicated because we take actions that our conscious mind is not aware of. We hold beliefs that our conscious mind really doesn’t know that we believe they’re all in the subconscious. And that’s where a really powerful listener will be able to hear those and say, you know what, Jenn, I think maybe you ought to be let’s just go down that path a little bit. So you said X, why is that? Can you share a little bit more about that and what that powerful listener is doing is listening for those subconscious/unconscious patterns that then will come up to the surface. Okay. Did that answer your question? Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. The question that comes to mind too, because I think, and I read this in your book and I love this, you know, one of the institutes that I went to for my coaching certification, one of the ways that they have us typically start is with that thought determines what you do, or the action that you take, and then how you do it or the emotion that you feel. But one of the differentiators, and I know one of the differentiators that you make, is that we actually don’t really think first. We feel first. And I think that actually goes against how some people are actually, you know, maybe educated. And because I appreciate that. So could you tell a little bit more about why it’s not necessarily about focusing on the thought, like what’s wrong with me, it’s focusing on what your body is actually noticing, sensing, and feeling.

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. So one of the surprising findings that are coming out of neuroscience in the last few decades is that the unconscious regions of our brain light up first before the conscious mind considers the action it’s going to take. So that’s going to take something to understand. So I’m going to, I’m going to explain it this way. Let’s say that we could hook a person’s brain up with a brain scanner and watch what is going on in that brain. And let’s say that that person picks up their phone at two-thirty-six oh two, right? That brain scanner would be able to know that that person would go to pick up that phone. Two thirty-six-zero-zero a fraction of a second before they pick up the phone. Okay. They think they’re in control of that action. We honestly believe that we are choosing to pick up the phone, but when we know how our brain works, that changes everything.

So it is true that our emotions occur first. Before our thoughts, before our thinking mind comes in and says, I want to do something. The impetus to act is already occurring at the level of the unconscious. I like to say you want to know why your hand is in that cookie jar. That’s why it’s nothing to do with choice. It has everything to do with patterns. And I’m not talking habits here. I am actually talking about the unconscious guides the show like puppets on a string when it comes to that conscious mind. So if we’re going to change anything, we got to start at the level of pattern.

What’s the Difference Between a Habit and a Pattern?

Jenn DeWall:

So what’s the difference. Because you just brought that up, and I didn’t think to ask this, what’s then the difference between habit and a pattern?

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Habits of repetitive actions that we do over and over and over again, but they’re still driven by a pattern. It’s just that that pattern happens to be, well-used call it that way.

Jenn DeWall:

So your pattern determines your habit. It’s not. That’s the easiest way to determine it. So they are different; whatever pattern you have will dictate. What type of habit you have

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How do You Shift Your Patterns for Real Behavioral Change?

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s, let’s dive into the meat of how do you even start? And I know that we went on two different tangents, and that was my bad, but how do we start to even get awareness and start to change our patterns and where I kind of took our conversation in a different direction was on identifying the pattern. And so, how do we start? Like where do we start to even change our patterns?

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. So when I teach a four-step technique, a four-step repatterning technique, it starts by identifying the pattern. So once we know what actions, behaviors, beliefs are in our way, once we’ve set that goal. And we said, okay, what’s in the gap? And we’ve come up with a list of actions, behaviors, beliefs. The next step is to identify the pattern that is driving that unwarranted, unworkable action-behavior-belief. So that’s a three. As I said, there are three parts to a pattern, physical sensation, emotional thought. It’s just a matter of identifying where do I feel that in the body. What is the emotion that goes along with that pattern? And then what is my thinking process along with that pattern? What’s my mental activity, right? That’s step one. Step two— We wouldn’t flip that switch. Remember I said that your brain is locked inside this bony skull, and there really has no access to the outside world.

Okay. So, you know, I’m looking at a tree right now, outside of my window. I really believe that I see that tree. I’m not. What I’m seeing is a neural pathway in my brain that is delivering tree, right. The experience of tree. Okay. So we need to flip that switch. We need to start owning what is going on in the outside world as the result of a pattern and not as a result of our situation. And that’s just a matter of owning that the pattern is a pattern. We actually use the words I created that. Right. But not from a position of blame, not from a position of I’m doing something wrong, but more from a position of, at some point in my past, I created that pattern, and therefore I own it. That’s powerful. Okay.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s extremely powerful to understand that. And I’m curious, like, you know, maybe you’ll touch on this too. Like what level of, what happens if you don’t take autonomy or excuse me, responsibility for creating that pattern, you know, then what does that look like in your life? But that’s a tangent. So many ideas are going through my brain right now, all through this conversation.

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can answer that question, but let’s, let’s do the other two steps first and then remind me of that question. We’ll come back. So then the third step, now we have to do something interesting. Remember, I said that the most powerful thing we can do inside the brain is not to change a pattern. Because what that would mean is that you’re just using another pathway in the brain. But if you could do what you need to do, you would not have a goal. You would already have accomplished what you want to do. So what we need to do is remove the pattern that doesn’t work, and that’s step three. And we do that through a process of surrendering. The only way to do that is to get to the unknown. All right. So we, that’s a tricky step for some, but it’s very doable. Once you get it, you get it. It’s like, oh yeah. Okay. I can do this. And then once you do that, removes that pattern. All right. And then the fourth step is then to create that new pattern. But if we miss that step three, we’re just moving around an existing brain that doesn’t yet have the solution.

Taking Ownership—But Not Blame

Jenn DeWall:

So we’re just essentially keeping ourselves stuck because we’re not willing to take ownership and responsibility. So I guess that does come back to the question, what happens when we’re not willing to take ownership or take responsibility for that? That essentially means that we’re probably not even able to get to the point of step three because we’re not. I mean, we’re not obviously even at step one because we probably don’t see it as our challenge or our problem or faulty programming.

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah, no, that’s absolutely true. You know, once people understand patterns, then they willingly take ownership of the patterns because it’s so refreshing to be able to say, oh yeah, that’s mine. I can actually do something about that. But until we are taught about patterns, we really are a victim of our patterns. We really do end up just doing stuff and then not understanding why we do stuff. Behaving in ways that we didn’t expect to behave and going, what’s wrong with me—and creating that world of blame and shame internally and externally. And that’s what happens.

Jenn DeWall:

I think about the example of even, you know, I feel like I did a lot of learning and maybe this is for some people later on in life, tried, I made some mistakes. I’m like, oh, outside looking in. Here’s what I could have done. And when I think about even the first time that I received feedback, I initially went to that place of the victim, which is, well, this is me, this is me. And I can’t do anything. And so I guess like, what do you kind of see people? Where do you see people stunting in the process of feeling like, well, woe is me? I just, I can’t do it because shifting into responsibility, I see, can be a thing that some people are unwilling to do, or they’re still really holding on to maybe the blame. And they’re just not ready to even assign any or take any personal accountability for that. How do you overcome that resistance or maybe that pushback from people to want to take that responsibility for addressing it?

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. That’s a really great question. And every leader out there, I’m sure who is listening right now, is his ears open going, how do you do this?? Because it really is difficult if you’re trying to support somebody who you’re leading and they just don’t want to own anything, right. It’s like, no, that’s not me. I draw the blame on other people. So the first thing to do is the theory of repatterning is really a way to start. Because when you understand that there is, let me just back up for a moment. Are you, Jenn, responsible for your actions, your behaviors, your beliefs?

Jenn DeWall:

I’d say—Yes.

Adele Spraggon:

Ah, I say, no!

Jenn DeWall:

Oh No! Why?

Adele Spraggon:

Remember I said that that action-behavior-belief originates in the unconscious regions of your brain, and it is given by a pre-existing pattern. Right? So you are not responsible for anything that you do, anything that you believe or any behavior that you would adopt, but what are you responsible for? You’re responsible, but in the true sense of the word, as in able to respond to the pattern that gives rise to that action-behavior-belief. Okay. So when we know about the brain, when we know how this brain is working, there is no blame. There’s nothing that you’re doing that you’re choosing to do. Your patterns are choosing on your behalf. So the only thing you need to do is reflect back on the action that the pattern took and said, did that work? And if your answer is no, to know that it was just a pattern and to be, then have a tool in your pocket where you can remove that pattern. That takes all the sting out of everything. I mean, as pattern makers, I watched them blossom because they’re able to just take in all of whatever other people say, all of there and just go. Thanks for sharing that. I’ll take care of that. What do they mean by that? Thanks for sharing. I will go and take care of my reaction to what you’re saying by dealing with and removing my pattern, which is a reaction. That’s power.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s total power, but here’s my next burning question is how do you make it? Because I think it’s one thing to identify the pattern. And then it’s another to understand, like where you want to go, but then it’s the, how do you reinforce the new pattern? Because I imagine like, how do you stay on this new path of where you want to be versus falling it back to your default, subconscious? Like where, what would be your tips for that? Or how do you see people navigate that? So that’s gotta be the biggest challenge. We’ve had some bad programming and bad patterns for a long time.

Adele Spraggon:

Yes. Yeah. Great question. So again, we need to come back to the brain. Think about your old pathway in your brain that is connected like this. Okay. So for those of you who are just listening to the audio, I have my two front fingers together, and we’re just going to go in there, and we just want to gently tease that pattern apart. Remember that pathway is responsible for an action, behavior or belief. So we have a belief in our hand that says I’m small, or I can’t. Okay, great. It is just going to go in there. And we’re just going to tease that pattern apart and that channel, your brain has plasticity. The next thing that’s going to happen is it’s going to re-wire. It’s going to snap into brand new channels, and it will not have a void there in the brain. So it’s just going to re-wire itself. Now, do you think that you can possibly take that action again? The old action, the one that didn’t work, my action of quitting, can I go back and now be a quitter?

Jenn DeWall:

By now, you’re describing it? Yeah. Like you wouldn’t be able to, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it? Is that kind of it?

Adele Spraggon:

Once you upgrade the brain, you will not go back to old unworkable actions, behavior, beliefs. That’s got a brain is brilliant.

Jenn DeWall:

And for people then they’re like thinking like, I don’t like this, it can change. I can change these patterns.

Adele Spraggon:

Yes. Permanently. I’m not talking temporarily. Like we would with hypnosis or affirmations or positive thinking. This isn’t a temporary shift. This is a brand new person that arises into the space called you. A person who is now effective, where you used to be ineffective. Capable where you used to be in a capable.

Jenn DeWall:

How liberating, just to know that, like I don’t have to also live in that pattern. You know, I can actually truly put it to bed assuming that I did it in the right ways of being able to address it, overcome it surrender to it. Right. If we don’t use that, if you don’t surrender, that is just to me. So liberating. There’s just so much peace that comes with that sentiment of feeling like I can detach. It no longer has to be a part of how I see myself experienced my life. So on and so forth. So you’re basically giving the gift of peace to people, Adele.

Behavioral Change, Happiness, and Peace of Mind

Adele Spraggon:

I say happiness, peace of mind. That is your birthright. That is what your brain is designed to live. Like we have made everything so complicated only because we haven’t known about brain patterns. It’s only been in a few decades that neuroscience has had the brain scanners to be able to peek inside the brain and noninvasively. So all of this is brand new, and it’s going to revolutionize the way we do everything on this planet. Leadership is just one starting point, but it will revolutionize everything. And yet absolutely peace of mind, happiness, confidence. These are built into your brain when you know how to work the brain.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Like I know before our call, or before we actually started recording the podcast, you were sharing that you’re doing a lot of work with bigger corporate clients. I’m curious because again, we’re talking about something that I feel like CEOs aren’t addressing that they’re not talking about their employee patterning and what that needs to be, but how are you actually seeing companies, organizations, leaders start to really embrace this way of how we can look at, you know, making greater impacts or being the person that we want to be. How are you seeing them really embrace this approach of patterning or really human behavior? Like how we can, I guess, take part in that versus saying, we just want to train you to be able to do this skill.

Mental Illness and Old Patterns

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, we were talking about whole beings, right? Like, like really creating corporations in which the whole being shows up rather than just the skill or the talent shows up. Right. And so what’s going on today, Jenn, that is creating the need for repatterning. Because one thing that we have to know as human beings is philosophies do not arise out of the blue. Okay. They arise because of needs. And there is a huge need that is arising today, which is causing us to have to rethink how we were looking at the brain. So what is that need? Every age has its plague. As I like to say, and ours is not COVID-19. Our plague is mental illness. Why, what’s going on? Well, when we look at the world today, we can see that the world is what I call speeding up.

Changes are occurring more and more rapidly. Yes. As more people come on this planet, more changes are occurring on this planet. The more the planet is speeding up. So what does that mean? Well, there was a point in history. Let’s go back 200 years where a person could create patterns in their childhood, and their life was stable enough that those patterns would carry them through to old age. And that’s no longer the case. Let’s face facts, right? Your life changes year over year, over year. Let’s forget decades. It’s changing that fast. And people today will need three or four different careers in their lifetime. That’s typical. I think that that was the latest stat, right? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So what does that require? Brand new patterns, right? You can’t rely on those old patterns. We’ve got to face huge changes, which are global. And the pandemic is just one of those changes that are going to come at as fast as in faster and faster. So this is why now corporations have to wake up and say, okay, I cannot just expect this person to come in and do this job because they’re dealing with all of these external stressors, which are pushing down on them, and the corporation has to be aware of that, or else you’re going to have massive amounts of absenteeism and presenteeism. Do you know what that means?

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t! Like they don’t, what’s presenteeism?

Adele Spraggon:

That’s when you have people coming up, draining the coffee pot, but they’re actually not doing anything. They’re not contributing. Right. So both of those are massively on the rise. So if, unless we start to address people’s whole being, those problems are just going to get worse and worse and worse, and mental illnesses are just going to get worse and worse and worse. So all of that is the reason why corporations have to deal with it. And how, why is repatterning or things, tools such as repatterning is showing up in the world today?

Jenn DeWall:

I, you know, I love that there are a lot of organizations that have obviously like I’m more and more of a vested and more connected interest in supporting mental health. But what would you say to the organizations that may still be separate, right? It’s like the separation of church and state, except for the separation of your life outside of this and how you respond to that and what you do here. What would you say to those organizations? What would be a piece of advice that you would maybe share to those that still kind of believe like that’s not where we give you a paycheck? Isn’t that good enough? Why should we have to step in and support your mental health, Adele? Come on. What would you, what would be some advice that you would share maybe considerations like that they maybe haven’t thought about before?

Shifting Patterns to Build Resilience

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah, so the biggest buzzword in the corporate world today is resilience, right?

Jenn DeWall:

Yep! It sure is!

Adele Spraggon:

What is resilience? It’s the ability to bounce back from adversity. It’s the ability to take a challenge and deal with it and bounce back from it and create those creative solutions that are needed. Deal with the emotional upset that comes with those stressors. As I said, the world today is speeding up, and those stress factors are pushing down into the corporate world. So it’s not that the corporation itself has to change. It’s that those external stressors now are going to force the corporation to have to change. It has to take care of its employees, or else they’re not going to survive. That’s going to be true. Absenteeism is just the first of the problems that bottom line will start to be affected more and more and more as people lose focus, as people are struggling with worries at home, lack of sleep, all of that stuff is going to start affecting the entire team.

Jenn DeWall:

It’s not even necessarily a choice anymore. If you want to, you know, preserve that productivity. It understands that there’s a force that’s happening beyond that corporation’s control. That’s already going to push it, and you can just choose whether to deal with it or not. And you’re going to see the positive and negative consequences that come from that.

Adele Spraggon:

Yeah. Yeah. And, and because there are some fantastic tools out there today, mine just being one of them. Why not? Why not be a front runner and deal with it and attract those good people, those skills that you need because people today are not just looking for a corporation to give them a paycheck. They’re looking for a place to call home. And so why not be a front runner and say, Hey, yes, I’ll, I’ll take care of you. You take care of us. I, and to me, that just makes total sense.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, no, it absolutely does. When I think about when I initially started out as a coach, people would be like, I’m looking for a career coach. And those ambitious people are like; I’m looking for that career coach that’s going to help me elevate my performance and the piece I’m like, I’ve always said, I call myself a career life coach because you don’t get to put them into a vacuum and manage them accordingly. Like that, that is just not the way that we are designed. That’s not how our brain is going to think because I can’t shut off my emotions at nine and be like, you know what? I know that my grandpa’s really sick, but it’s. I’m on the clock now. So I can’t care about that anymore. Or I’m really disturbed about this. Like, Hey, I’m at a meeting. I’m not going to think about it. Like, that’s just not happening. Oh my gosh. So how do you work? Like how, because I really, I believe in the work that you do and I think it’s so essential. So how are you working with some of the organizations? Like what are some of the work that you’re doing with their teams, with their leaders to support this? I just think it’s such important work.

Adele Spraggon:

Oh yeah. So what’s super exciting is I partnered up with a client of mine. She’s an amazing powerhouse. And she has a company called Heartbeat AI, in which she measures emotions within the corporation. So she comes in, she researches, she can actually measure the level of resilience and the level of stress. And she can predict what the issue is going to be in the future, based on that emotional pulse of the corporation. So her and I partnering together is amazing because she comes in, she can measure, she can show exactly where the problems are going to be, what needs to be targeted. I come in. I support the team members, only those who are willing. I don’t even have to work with the entire team. We can shift a team just by working with key people within that team. So shift their patterns, which shifts the resilience within that team. Then she comes back in and measures, and we guarantee our results because we can see them right there in the surveys and what she does. It shows the real results week over week, over week. And you just watch the resilience go up, and the stress comes down.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I would love to go back to so many organizations that I’ve worked for and be like, well, you check the pulse of this. Because I would just be curious to kind of see what the observations the findings are and then just say, yeah, all of those problems actually did happen. I mean, what if, you know, what if organizations actually had a rating system of like, this is your organizational policy, it’s a B, or you’re feeling it, or you’re, you know, it’s an, E for excellence. Like, is there a way that you could actually go out and say, here’s all of our data that we’ve collected? And if you’re doing these things, like you’re at an F, and here are the things that have you don’t address them. This is only going to have an impact on your decisions, your profits, your turnover, what else comes down the line.

But I think it’d be so helpful for organizations to have that because right now I think the grading system that they have are, you know, employee survey results, which, who knows if the employees even do them, if they did them on a good day or bad day. Or you have people that went to your glass door and are like, I love this company, or I don’t love that company, but I like that you’re coming up with a real tool to assess, like, this is really what’s going on. And it’s not necessarily from maybe the people that you always want to hear from. So it might be more biased; it’s from a different level. I just think that’s so important. And I wish more organizations could actually be if you think about what that would do, if I knew as an employee that an organization had an A-rating for a, you know, its pulse for its culture, how it treats people, I want to work for those cultures, how I don’t want to work for the ones that are the F, or they don’t have and see me as an individual that has flaws that are still working through stuff but also has best intentions for what I can do for you.

Like, I just wish that you could almost take that data and make it public. So people could be like, how do I find those people? Cause I want to work at those companies. But I mean, most importantly too, I mean, at least the work that you’re doing is not only being able to identify it but then saying here is a roadmap for how you can change. Like you’re not stuck there. Going back to how we even opened the conversation is like, they’re like change is something that can always occur. If there is willingness, if there is, you know, I don’t want to butcher it in the way that we’ve talked about it from patterns, but we can always grow and change. We can always choose a new path. And so maybe it’s not the place for that organization, and blaming and shaming themselves, but it’s just saying what the new path you want to create for your team is?

Adele Spraggon:

The beautiful thing about resilience is it’s actually occurring on two different levels. There’s resilience within a team, which we can measure based on the level of optimism within that team. And we find we’re finding that the more optimistic a team is, the more resilience there is at the individual level and vice versa. If you can rebuild, if you can rebuild, sorry, if you can build the resilience within individual members of that team, that increases the resilience of the entire team overall. So, you know what you said? Not from a position of blame and shame. Absolutely. Because there are some members of teams who are– okay, can I just say it– they are not at the maturity level to own their own patterns to take on that level of responsibility.

Jenn DeWall:

Are you saying that there are a million people that are like, yes, I’ve worked with that person, thank you for saying that?

Adele Spraggon:

And so it’s unfair to say you have to because they can’t. All right. So, so we don’t have to, we can just work with a portion of that team and just work with 20% of those who are willing members of their team to own their patterns. It increases the entire resilience of the entire team because each supports the other, which is amazing,

How to Connect with Adele Spraggon

Jenn DeWall:

It creates a true ripple effect in terms of how they all interact. The work that you’re doing is so important. I’m so glad that you even took time out of your schedule to be able to talk and sit down with me for our listeners of The Leadership Habit. We talked about your book. I know that you’re working on more. So Adele’s book, Shift: 4 Steps to Personal Empowerment, Adele, how can people get in touch with you and how can they work with you? Where’s your, where would, where would they go to get in touch with you and learn more?

Adele Spraggon:

The best place is my website, AdeleSpraggon.com, they can get to, and if they want a free copy of my book, you can get it there, but you can also get it at Shift4Steps.com,  And that’s the number four. And I’m sure you’ll put all of this in the copy notes. Yeah. Yeah, so, and just, all I ask is that you pay for shipping, and I will send you a signed copy.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my God, that is a fantastic offer. And again, I started reading this book. I’m about a quarter to halfway through, and I can tell you that you have said things that I actually have not been exposed to yet. And so I just really appreciate the way that you’ve shared this and written this, and most of all, I appreciate the work that you’re doing to help people truly maximize the type of life that they live. Adele, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was great.

Adele Spraggon:

No, thank you for having me, Jenn. It was a pleasure.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation without a doubt. Now, if you want to know more about a doubt, connect with her, get her free book. You can head on over to her website, adelespraggon.com. And if you know someone as you were listening, that could really benefit from hearing Adele’s message. Don’t forget to share this podcast episode with them, help them see their new possibilities or the potential outcomes vacancy as a result of reprogramming. And of course, if you enjoyed this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Until next time.

 

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Managing Conflict with Kevin Mowers, CEO of Extended Management, a Crestcom Franchise

In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with Kevin Mowers, the CEO and President of Extended Management, a Crestcom franchise located in Northeast Ohio. In his business. Kevin focuses on leadership development, using a specific process that ensures that leaders grow into great leaders through a change of behavior. At the end of the day, Kevin’s personal mission is to move hearts in Northeast Ohio by making people into better individuals in their personal and professional lives. Kevin and I are going to be talking all about conflict today. And Kevin has lectured and presented on many topics, such as restorative justice, social justice, organizational development, and leadership development theory. He’s also a contributing author to the Little Book of Restorative Justice for Colleges and Universities written by one of the godfathers of restorative justice or “RJ.” Dr. David R Karp. Join our conversation as Kevin and I talk about where we get conflict wrong and how to resolve conflict in a productive way.

Meet Kevin Mowers, CEO and Crestcom Franchise Owner

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I am sitting down with Kevin Mowers, President and CEO of Extended Management, a Crestcom franchisee, and you’re located in Ohio. Kevin, how are things going for you today? How are you doing?

Kevin Mowers:

Oh, it’s gorgeous here in the Northeast. Ohio. Sun is shining. Northeast, Ohio is actually known for being one of the cloudiest places in the country. So the fact that the sun is shining right now is a good thing.

Jenn DeWall:

Good day. Well, Great! Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself. You are a Crestcom franchisee. We know that The Leadership Habit podcast is hosted by Crestcom, a global leadership development organization, but you are one of the people that’s bringing leadership development to organizations. And I just want you to tell us a little bit about yourself before we dive into our topic today, which is all about how to resolve conflict in a healthy way. But Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. Well, thank you honored to have this opportunity to talk with you. It’s just a passion of mine as far as talking about conflict, and so looking forward to our conversation today, a little bit about myself. So originally, I was born and raised in Michigan. So I’m a transplant here to Ohio. You know, so, so moved down here to Northeast Ohio about eight years ago. I spent my career working in higher education prior to doing what I’m doing now with Crestcom. You know, I always had that leadership aspect of it, but to do it now full time is a great thing. I love the outdoors, so my people that are in Denver, Colorado, I’m a little bit jealous of everything you have out there to offer. But I do spend my time outdoors here in Ohio. Love to get outside and do some fishing and play golf.

One of my passions, something that a lot of people don’t know, is I’m actually a competitive Archer. So I’ve been shooting a bow since I was a little kid, and probably the last 10, 15 years, I got into it competitively. So I practice probably once a day, at least an hour in the backyard, just shooting my bow, workarounds and skills. And then, I compete in monthly tournaments around the state of Ohio and internationally at times. So I’m married, two kids, two beautiful little girls. I’m a girl dad and absolutely love it. I wouldn’t change it, trade it for anything. But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s awesome. Things are going well here in Northeast Ohio. I love what I’m doing right now.

Jenn DeWall:

All right. Impromptu question. How would you relate archery to leadership?

Kevin Mowers:

That is a whole other podcast. So we could do that. There are so many overlaps, especially from the mental side of the game. But to do it well, to compete, it takes a process- which is leadership. So I could talk about that all day. We’ll say that for another conversation.

Why Did You Join the Crestcom Franchise Network?

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough, Kevin. So, I know that your, you know, your background is within higher education, and I know that you’re passionate about leadership, right? That’s why we’re here today, but what made you invest in the Crestcom franchise?

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah, you know, a couple of reasons, one, I was at a point in my career where I said, you know what, I’m missing the things I love to do day in and day out, which is, you know, the development of people. So one of my final roles, when I was at Kent State University, was as the Director of Housing, so I oversaw the entire housing population, but it removed me from some of the day-to-day conversations around what does it mean to be an effective leader? What does it mean to be a better person, day in and day out? And I missed that, so I knew it was time to start looking at what I want to do to really make sure my purpose in life was being fulfilled day in and day out. So that was a big factor in it.

There are thousands of trainer training programs that are out there. I started looking for something that was going to be different. And I found Crestcom! When I started looking at Crestcom, I could tell that there was a difference between both the process and the people that were involved with it. And I think for me those are the two things and which I would say are the reasons as to why Crestcom is what I do. Because when we develop our program, we develop our process. It’s intentional. It’s purposeful. It’s built off of foundational things that you need to be a leader. So that was really important for me, you know, to know that I could have content that was sound, that was proven, that was vetted and developed in a way that’s going to actually move hearts; in a way that makes people become better.

But the other part of it too, Jenn was, you know, when I had the chance to go to Denver and to meet with the team at headquarters, you know, I saw something different there, you know, like they were nothing but supportive. You know, they did all that they could do to help me get to where I wanted to be when it comes to this business. And that continued after, you know, I bought in and started doing what I needed to do. So you know, there, there is this element of a family when it comes to what we do here at Crestcom. You know we’re all doing leadership work, but it takes something a little bit different, with a little more intent, something personal that that really separates us from our competitors and why we do what we do.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I love that you said, you know, you use the word heart, but we’re both passionate about leadership, but still, sometimes people don’t necessarily add heart or love into that equation. And I just think that’s so special that that’s one of your pieces is to want to lead with heart. And because I do, I love Crestcom as a global organization. That means that there are individuals all around the world that are developing leaders and, you know, all of us in our missions and purposes. I know that we’re going to create or help others achieve greater heights and greater outcomes that they couldn’t before. But I just love that heart is one of the things that brought you into this business, and I’m sure, oh, what were you going to say to that?

Kevin Mowers:

That’s spot on. In fact, I take my personal mission a little bit further. So my mission, my life purpose, beyond just what I do with Crestcom or doing with coaching individuals or, you know, the volunteer opportunities that I’m a part of here in Northeast Ohio. What I am trying to do day in and day out, my personal mission is to move hearts in Northeast Ohio. That’s why I made the career switch. That’s why I joined Crestcom. That’s why I do the things I do today. When I volunteer my time, that’s what I do in the archery world. You know, believe it or not. I move hearts. I want people to become better as individuals day in and day out. When we’re better at work, we’re better at home. When we’re better at home, we’re better for the relationships that we’re a part of. You know, that’s what it’s about- moving the heart.

What Interested You in Conflict Management?

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s talk about how we can move the hearts in the frame or frame of reference of conflict. So now we’re going to be talking, we’re moving into, you know, talking about how to resolve conflict in a healthy way because there are so many examples of when conflict is not handled appropriately. And of course, as a leader, as an employee, you know, conflict at work is a part of work, but it doesn’t have to be this, you know, atrocious, heavy, awful thing. It can actually be the thing that helps us move our teams forward helps us make better decisions. But Kevin, how did you become interested in understanding conflict? So you’re getting your doctorate right now too. Like, I mean, we haven’t really touched on your background of why conflict is an important area to you. So if you could even share or shed some insight on that as well.

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. It’s a story. You know, I love storytelling, which you’ll hear me talk about a little bit later in our conversation, but you know, for me, well, I got to go back a long way, right? So I think all of us probably can think back to our earliest childhood memory. Okay. And if you think about that for a second, like it might not come readily available, but for me, my earliest childhood memory is actually not a good situation. It was a violent situation. So I grew up in a household with two parents, siblings, but there was a lot of violence that was associated with my upbringing. Without going into detail about what that memory is, it wasn’t good. It, it left some scars, it left some, some emotions that I didn’t know how to deal with as I grew up.

It bled into a lot of other things that happened. And one of the parts of my story that I often talk about is all the things that have happened to me. Now, I can actually trace lines all the way back to that moment, how I made decisions, how I respond to certain things, how now, as an adult, certain things play out, and I make decisions as a result of that. And then all comes around like how to deal with conflict, how, how emotions are tied to that. And what happened to me was, you know, as I grew up, I found myself in situations in which, you know, I, as a guy, as a male, I was actually rewarded for being, you know, violent at times, tough guy, tough guy, masculine. I played sports. So the harder I went in sports, the harder I hit, you know, the more aggressive I was, I got my name in the paper, you know, I got, you know, rewarded, you know, at the end of the year, you know, my dad would praise me, you know, the coaches would, you know, elevate my status, you know?

So, you know, I was getting all these messages that, you know, as a young man, like, this is what you need to do. This is what it takes to be a man. And for me, I always struggled with it cause it was like, okay, I have to do this, but it doesn’t feel right. I don’t know how to deal with this. I don’t want to deal with these situations where, you know, I, I find myself in these conflict situations, I was taught as a kid. You either fight or flight, and it was unacceptable to run away. So you toe the line, you throw up your fist, you grit your teeth and take care of business. Right. That doesn’t work when you go to college. You went to college, first-generation college student, you know, I didn’t know what that experience was going to be like at all.

I quickly realized that my way wasn’t going to work, and fortunately, I had an RA who sat me down and said, Hey, Kevin, you can’t do this. And you can’t do it because it has an impact on others. It’s, it’s having an impact in ways that maybe you didn’t see. That was the first time I ever said, wow, okay. It’s not about me. I can’t run around the dorm saying whatever it is I want. I can’t run around the dorm being a bully and getting away with things. Like, I gotta be mindful of what this means. Right? So fast forward a couple of years, you know, that, that was kind of a pivotal moment as well. I became a Hall Director, a professional.

Managing Conflict with Restorative Justice

Kevin Mowers:

I graduated from college, you know, got hired as a Hall Director, had the opportunity at the University of Michigan to learn about this thing called restorative justice. You know, when conflict happens, there’s a way to manage it. There’s a way to deal with it, focusing on harms more than anything else. When I heard that for the first time, I could truly say, Jenn, that there was a weight lifted off of my shoulders because my whole life, it was this, it was fight or flight. It was put your Dukes up, and let’s go. You know, and I wasn’t fighting people at work, but boy, I was taking that hard-line, aggressive approach when I realized, and I learned that there was a different way. I got extremely passionate about it. I wanted to pursue that and learn about it because I realized that conflict was always a part of my life. I was always finding myself in situations, which crisis and conflict was there. But boy, at the end of it, I wasn’t feeling right about what it was, how I was managing.

I was a part of that process. So I really wanted to find a way to do it differently. I wanted to stop the cycle of things that happened in my life. So it didn’t impact, you know, my wife and my girls and the people that I care about in my life. Like the people I work with and who I lead in certain places. So the quest, and the reason why conflict is a passion, you know, again, it started a long time ago, but it hasn’t ended in any way, shape or form. It’s a journey. It’s a process. Just like anything else we talk about when it comes to leadership, you know, I’m still learning, I’m still growing. You know, I’m still finding ways to talk about this and to share this and, and to learn about it so that, you know, I can benefit others because again, it’s about moving hearts. It’s about making people better. So that’s kind of the “why” – abbreviated version. I can actually give you a, probably a two-hour talk on just that story alone. But again, maybe we’ll say that for another podcast.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, I think, Kevin, you said a lot of very insightful things and also just great points of —hopefully— reflection for our listeners. We are so thinking and reminding ourselves that obviously, conflict is emotional. And conflict, whether it, you know, obviously it doesn’t, even if it doesn’t go physical, the burden of conflict of feeling in conflict with someone, or even getting energetically into conflict and riled up around conflict is emotional. It can add more stress. It can damage our relationships. It can impact our ability to think clearly or make decisions or, you know, even sleep. I love, you know, just reminding people like this is why we want to find a healthier way to resolve conflict, which is what we’re going to be talking about because it is emotional. So when we don’t address it or just pretend it doesn’t exist, it’s actually just playing, you know, it’s still making an impact.

You just may not be able to see it. But the other thing that I liked that you shared too, Kevin, is that I think something that a lot of people don’t really talk about, like in the sense of how did you learn how to resolve conflict? And for many people, that likely is their upbringing. Whatever they observed in their home became this tool of how we understood, or maybe a process or a way of how we thought that we should approach conflict. And so hopefully to our listeners right now, they’re thinking, and I’m talking to that person like maybe it’s that person that was you in the dorm, right? When you knew that you were not handling conflict, maybe that was me in my twenties. Like I always had this proven thing. I always needed to prove myself to people. And I felt like I even damaged relationships cause I was more concerned about being right than I was about necessarily doing the right thing or detaching from the outcome that didn’t really matter.

And so I feel like there are a lot of people here that if you found that you maybe didn’t respond to conflict in the best way, maybe there’s this example that you’re thinking of, that this is still your opportunity and what Kevin and I are going to be talking about today to find healthier ways. So long story short, just don’t beat yourself up for it, but also take responsibility and, you know, find a different way so it can improve your relationships. And, of course, your own mental health and ability to be successful. So Kevin, what is conflict? What is it?

What is Conflict?

Kevin Mowers:

Oh, great question. I think if we had figured this out by now, I think the world would probably be in a totally different place. That question has always been my starting point in this conversation for a couple of different reasons, but I think every one of us knows what it feels like. I think everyone can kind of put their finger on a situation in which, you know, the conflict has happened. I challenge it to some degree, and what I mean by that is when we think about conflict, and if we define it in its basic forms, conflict is, yes, a difference. So a different opinion, but what makes the situation truly a conflict situation is when it becomes a prolonged, ongoing difference, but something that also has a serious and significant impact. Okay. So think about that for a second. If my wife and I have an argument over where we want to go to eat, is that a conflict situation?

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, if it’s not prolonged, so by that definition- it’s not necessarily prolonged.

Kevin Mowers:

Right? Right. So, you know, it’s an argument. Like she wants to go to Applebee’s. I want to go to, you know, Subway as an example. Food choices aside, but that’s not a conflict situation. We had a disagreement on what we wanted for dinner that night. Now, what would happen in that same situation? Right? What would happen if, if every time we wanted to go out to dinner, I chose, and she had no voice in saying where she wanted to go. Would that then be a conflict situation?

Jenn DeWall:

If she’s frustrated by it, absolutely. Because every time you’re picking the place to eat!

Kevin Mowers:

Right, so it’s this prolonged notion, but it also will have a significant impact on her at some point too. Right. Maybe from a health standpoint, maybe from a mental standpoint. That prolonged process is a part of how I pushed back and defined what conflict looks like. Because in reality, we find ourselves in conflict situations all the time. You know, like they say that there’s no conflict in our life is a bald-faced lie. And I would challenge anyone who says they don’t have conflict in her life. Now the difference between arguments, fights and conflict, there are some subtle differences in it. You know, an argument is, is a simple disagree, you know, you and you and I, for example, right? Like you think podcasts are the best way to reach people. Maybe I think social media is the best way we could argue that. Okay. Is there a significant impact at the end of that conversation for either you or me? No, we have a different opinion, but is there a prolonged argument over it now?

You know, it’s, it’s a one-time thing. We’re not in a conflict situation. Okay. What would change that is if you and I were working together on a regular basis and we were in the same office space trying to do this work and my belief that social media, it was the best route and your belief that podcasts are the best route for best outcomes. And, and you insisted that this has to happen in my life then becomes impacted because I don’t buy into it, then maybe we’re in a conflict situation. Okay. There’s the difference. So when you ask me, what is conflict? You know, my response is it’s a different certainly, but what makes it different? What makes it really switch into this world where it’s a conflict situation is when we have prolonged, you know, arguments, prolonged, differences that start having a significant impact on us as individuals.

And when I say us as individuals, not just me, but it’s also you, it also could be the people that are around us. So if we’re an office building, it could be our coworkers, if we’re at home, you know, so if my wife and I are constantly arguing over the same issue over and over again. My two girls are going to be impacted by that. That’s going to impact their friends. That’s going to impact my in-laws because every time we go over to their house, you know, we’re arguing and fighting, right? Like that there’s that for me, there’s that shift from, all right, we had a disagreement, to this is now a conflict situation because of those two factors.

Jenn DeWall:

I think it’s important that you referenced that. And maybe this is as you were talking about that definition of conflict and it being prolonged the thing that kept popping into my head, or maybe people that might initially be conflict avoiders and how really, think of it in the situation where if you’re a conflict avoider and you are observing a situation, and it is perceived to be a single or individual instance, it’s not really conflict. It’s just a difference of opinions or a difference of approach. And I liked that because it softens, it, it becomes a greater conflict, you know, obviously as you’re talking about when it’s prolonged and then it escalates, and it has a greater impact on both of us, but maybe this is just an opportunity to help reframe this a one-time event? We can resolve this. It’s not going to be a full-fledge to like, you know, conflict, have a choice on how you show up and how you manage the situation.

Managing Conflict by Personality Type

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. And I think that’s a spot-on point. It is a moment for us to reframe what this looks like. You know, because immediately what comes out for that question is what does conflict look like, why does it exist? How does it exist, right? Like where does it come from? And in my argument, there is that, you know, this is a natural response for us as part of our personalities. Okay. So this month across Crestcom, we’re talking about how to manage personality traits. Right? Right. Great topic, you know, there are thousands of personality trait assessment tools that are out there. You can take any one of those things and figure out personality traits. And I will guarantee you that if you split them down, the middle half is going to be in conflict. Avoidance and half are the ones that usually cause conflict.

Okay. So if you take ten people and put them in a room, five of them don’t want to deal with conflict in any way, shape or form. And five of them are like, yeah, I’m good with that fact, I’m going to probably poke a little bit to make conflict happen. They might not say that, but that’s their natural tendency. That’s their personality traits. So for me, kind of going back to that story I shared before, I thought I was good with conflict. I thought I could manage it. But when you break my personality traits down to who I really am day in and day out. I am in conflict avoidance all day long. I’m a peacekeeper. I want to do all I can to avoid conflict situations, which is why I didn’t handle it well. And also that natural response, you know, and it’s part of who we are.

That’s why these things exist. You know, conflict is always going to be here, you know, because we’re, we’re talking about people, you know. And anytime we’re talking about people, we’re talking about emotions, we’re talking about things that are bringing things out from deep inside of who we inherently are. So if emotions are tied to this, then we know people are tied to this. And if people are tied to this, there is a reason why conflict happens. And I’ve always said that because a lot of people will sit back and go. I don’t know why I’m in conflict. I don’t know why I’m always in these situations. I don’t know why X, Y, and Z happened. I push back and say, actually, there’s probably a reason. Let’s, let’s step back a second and say, all right, the people are involved. Why and how? And then why are they involved? Because of the emotional response? Is it fear? Is it anger? Is it frustration? Confusion? You know? So, so for me, why it exists, where does it come from? It, it comes from an inherent part of who we are deep down inside, you know? So for me, knowing that it’s then tied to a reason that we can then figure it out. We can figure out how to respond in a way that makes it healthy but also productive in resolving that conflict.

Jenn DeWall:

So if we’re to, if there’s someone listening right now, that’s thinking I might be that person that always finds myself in conflict. The first thing you would say, why does, why does that happen. It’s because it’s the natural response. It’s part of your maybe personality style, your learned behaviors. Why else do you think conflict? Yeah.

Kevin Mowers:

You know, you mentioned it before, and I’ll kind of bring it out who we are today based on our experiences in life. Our experiences in life drive our beliefs. It drives our values. So that’s a big part of this conversation, right? Like we, we, we make ourselves who we are based on those experiences. And as a result of that, that’s where someone’s emotions will come out. And the beauty of it is we get to change. We can always stop and pivot in different directions, which is a beautiful thing to dismiss that inherent drive an inherent part of who we are and not recognize it as a part of that conflict situation actually will cause more harm down the road. So one of the things that I’m studying right now and really spending time focusing on is this intersect between how our personal identities and conflict exist.

So usually, when conflict situations happen, we don’t talk about how we as individuals are deeply impacted. More importantly, when we figure out what the solution is, we don’t account for how to repair that damage caused by those identities, which is causing leaders to then make ineffective choices on how to move forward. What happens then is you always, and you hear this in our media, you hear it, you hear it all over the place. You know, somebody will do something as a result of a situation, but then they’re retracting a statement, or they’re issuing an apology, or they’re doing something to kind of back that up because it caused more issues, you know, for the group or the organization. Right. So how we make decisions, how we move forward, how we repair the harm. And I’ll talk a little bit more about that here in a bit that all stems from this inherent drive, who we are as individuals, based on our personality types. That’s why it exists. That’s why it comes out the way it does.

Understanding Your Own Reactions to Conflict

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, it’s the simplified way of understanding that. It’s just who we are. And I guess the example that I think of, you know, as it comes down to who I am in terms of values. One of the things that I had observed was even how I treated people that were late for meetings because one of my values was respect, and within that definition of respect. It was, you know, you respected me my time if you showed up on time. And I have just found as I’ve gotten older that while that might be true at some point in time, how I learned that message. I actually do not think that even works anymore for values, because especially in this virtual world where many people are going back to back in meetings like they are going to have to maybe grab some food, check on the kids, do whatever they need to do, or remembering that people aren’t intentionally trying to make things hard for you, but it honestly took me to be me going to a show with a friend who was late, and she always has late, and it still to this day.

It does not matter. Like now, I just laugh, and I’m like, we’ll just see what she gets here. It’s fine. But it took her going, like going to the show and us being late for the show, for me to say, Hey, I’m going to let you know stuff that this is actually one of my boundaries, but I just decided that instead of being frustrated with her because I love her so dearly that I, I was just going to change the way that I approached it. Instead of looking at respect, as you know, in that definition, I actually had to adjust my definition of respect. Because it truly, in that situation, Steff wasn’t trying to disrespect me. Steff just doesn’t manage her time well. Like it’s not about me. It takes time to realize that.

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah, that’s a great story. I’m going to come back to that story and use that as an example a little bit later because it ties into how we then can respond. I think what you did and how you responded to this beautiful there’s purpose and intent. And it ties directly back to the conversation we’re having today.

A Message from Crestcom:

Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you.

Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own a Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com.

When Does a Disagreement Become Conflict?

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s go into like, so when does it become a conflict? So it’s when it’s prolonged, and there’s a significant impact. When does it, when else does it become? So we know why conflicts happen. It’s differences of opinion. It’s people, it’s your values, your beliefs, but when does it actually become a conflict?

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah, exactly. You know, the piece I would add to this conversation around when and how and why- you know, outside of this inherent drive- there is a power play at hand that we’re talking about. You know, normally when we’re in these conflict situations, it’s one versus another, that there are elements of a power struggle that are in place, you know, and it could be boss/employee. It could be, you know, relationship-driven, husband/wife, partners, whatever the case may be. But there is this push and shove notion around how to establish power, and establishing power also comes from a natural place. We do that so that we protect ourselves. We do that to preserve the things that we care about.

And I always, you know, at this point, I always say, we, we can look around us right now in our world and our culture, and have examples of good leaders and bad leaders. And they all have power. Okay. There are some bad leaders with a lot of power making some really bad decisions, and it impacts a lot of people. Okay. But there are also some really good leaders that have significant power that can make a really big difference in their organizations or in the things that they’re leading. So this power thing is not a bad thing. I say it as a part of the conversation because it’s part of reality. When we’re in these conflict situations- especially with other individuals or with driving values or beliefs– there’s that push to want to establish power from a preservation standpoint to protect the things that we care about. That can cause harm. I always challenge people, especially from a social justice lens of how do you use your power? How do you use your privilege to make a difference? How do you maybe create equality? How do you create these situations in which conflict situations are managed in a way that is actually healthy? What’s the difference? Okay. So when you asked me, you know, where does it come from? You know, I always come back to here- the heart, right? How do we drive ourselves? But recognize that there are inherent flaws in that process. And we make choices to your earlier point on how we manage them and make choices moving forward.

Jenn DeWall:

And I think you mentioned, or you alluded to this, that like, when we’re looking at conflict and, you know, talking about it as kind of competing or shift in power, power, isn’t necessarily a position of a leadership position. I have this authority over you. Power might also just be feeling like you are seen and heard and having your voice actually make an impact, or just having, having someone listen to you. That is a form of power. So power isn’t always a title. And that’s what I hear you say, right? It’s not just about, you know, who has this authority. It is about maybe getting your voice, your idea heard, or just feeling seen as an individual.

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. Empowerment, right? Like yeah, exactly. You set a spot on. I don’t even want to add to it because it was perfect.

Managing Conflict in Real-World Situations

Jenn DeWall:

So, what type of conflicts have you seen at work?

Kevin Mowers:

Any and all, but probably not nearly enough to be honest with you. So but I, I think one of the experiences I had working in higher education. Working on a college campus, you see a lot of stuff, right? And I always, you put, you put 18-year-olds in a ten by ten dorm room. It really comes out. And one of the ones that always pops in my head is– I call it the burrito story. So one of the roles I served in a previous life was when something happened on campus, especially if it was a violent situation. My role was to come to campus and actually make a decision at the moment to remove the student from campus. Okay. So I get a call at two o’clock in the morning, one night, you know, I’m a fast asleep phone rings. I’m like, oh, here we go.

So I answered the phone. You know, the response on the other end was from one of our police officers. And the officer says, Kevin, we need you to come in. We need you to the decision to remove this kid from campus. And I’m like, okay, what happened? He assaulted his roommate. Okay. I’m on my way. Didn’t get all the details. I just had to get to the campus. Right. So get the campus, you know, they had this young man in custody in one of our offices. I walk in, and I say, okay, what, what happened? This, this young man, was intoxicated. He wasn’t putting together two words, and I’m like, all right, this is not good. Ask the officer what happened. So the officer proceeds to tell me that, you know, this young man came home from a party, walked into his dorm room.

His roommate was fast asleep, sleeping in bed. He flips on the light, walks over the refrigerator, pulls out a burrito, sticks burrito in the microwave, you know, starts to nuke it. His roommates start saying, Hey, you know, I’m trying to sleep, shut the lights off. Do you know how come on? It’s two o’clock in the morning. Like you shut the lights off this kid. Doesn’t say anything. He’s intoxicated. Microwave goes off, you know, beeps. He pulls off the Brito, takes one. Look at his roommate. Throws a burrito at his roommate. It hits his roommate in the face, gives his roommate a third-degree burn. Look, the guy sends his roommate to the hospital, so there’s the assault side of it. So, you know, the police officers were like, Hey, he assaulted his roommate. He needs to be kicked off campus immediately. He needs to be removed from this University.

Okay. Yeah. I- it’s hard for me to argue that. Okay. Like that is a bad situation. Is it a conflict situation? Ah! Okay! This is where it gets a little challenging. Right? So I’m dealing with a situation in which, you know, you’ve got a young man who’s highly intoxicated. He’s not even putting together sentences. I have officers that want him removed. What did I have to do at that moment to be a leader? Okay. How did I have to make my decisions? It was a challenging situation. Ultimately, when I decided to remove him for the evening. He had alternative housing off-campus. The next morning, we scheduled a meeting. We talked about the w we bring them in, asked him what happens. He doesn’t even remember it. We explained the situation, realized that they had ongoing conflict leading up to that event, that they were having roommate issues. They’re constantly fighting.

Removing this kid from housing was appropriate. Removing him from campus was a different story because I would be jeopardizing his four-year degree at that point. Right. That was going to be determined at a later date. I share that as an example for a couple of different reasons, right? Because you can look at that and say, that’s a terrible situation. Of course, he needs to get kicked off campus, but the kid was not a bad kid. He made a very bad choice. One that had a significant impact, right? One that had caused significant harm. Should he lose his opportunity to a four-year degree? That was a totally different conversation, different, you know, set of parameters that we had to look at another time and date, right. I was brought in to make a decision about immediate harm and impact to the campus community. All right. I wasn’t going to make a determination that was going to impact this kid’s life for the rest of his life. I was a part of that at a later point.

But I share that story for a couple of reasons. Like when you asked me what kind of conflicts have I seen? That’s probably the extreme side of it. You know, I’ve seen personality arguments. I’ve seen, you know, significant mental health issues that, that have an impact on our community. I’ve seen, you know, situations in which personal life struggles come into play at work, you know, the impact, how people make decisions. Right. I love that question. And I appreciate it because while I can continue to go on and get countless examples, almost every one of them is going to come back to an emotional response that people have. So come back to something that’s impacted who they are, you know, their values, their beliefs, something is leading up to it. And that’s why I make the argument and go back to what I said earlier. There’s going to be a reason behind something that’s going on. Now, if we make a rash decision and make decisions off of limited information, are we going to cause more impact? Are we going to deal with these complex situations in unhealthy ways? Chances are, we probably will. I rather make a decision with, with as much as I can so that I make healthy decisions, make healthy choices, make decisions that I know are going to deal with conflict in a healthy way.

When Managing Conflict, Make Sure You Have ALL of the Data

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, this is why we as individuals always need to be, I guess, very attuned to how we’re feeling. Because as you talked about the fact that it’s prolonged. So that incident, you know, with the roommates, might’ve been pretty clear. Like you could see the conflict brewing after you had the conversation, but when for those that are still struggling to maybe get their brain around all these perceived isolated incidents. Where like that’s still a conflict? Well, the reason that it’s prolonged is that maybe you have been telling yourself, my company is not treating me well, my boss isn’t treating me well, or like this is happening and you’re not seeing anything, right. Conflict avoiders this is when we’re pushing down, not saying anything, not saying anything. And then, you know, all the stars align and then it becomes a conflict. But really had we been more attuned to who we are or do more, self-reflection processed our emotions, all of the things that sometimes we have a tendency to just think like, oh, that stuff is fine. I’ve got stuff to do. I don’t have time to sit and evaluate how I’m feeling about something. If we actually lay that groundwork, we can be better.

And I just love that point of conflict because it is really putting the accountability on the individual to say, you have to take responsibility for what’s irking you, bugging, you, stressing you. And if it’s something that you can control, it is then your responsibility to have a conversation to take that action. And because that’s what makes it prolonged is it’s yours. It’s the response around conflict, or maybe what we’ve been tolerating because we don’t feel like we have a voice. I think that’s so powerful because I, it really just, it helps people for me, it helped me understand that prolonged part. At first, I just kept thinking of it being a prolonged conflict, the same situation between two, you know, two parties, but really it’s, it can also just be at the individual level of perceived, you know, misgivings, misfortunes, frustration, so on and so forth. And that if you don’t take responsibility, it just could be that next situation that causes you to respond in a way that you know you didn’t want to do or show up that way.

Kevin Mowers:

Exactly. Let me, let me show you another way people often get this wrong. Okay. So let me ask you a question, Jenn, what is two plus two?

Jenn DeWall:

Four!

Kevin Mowers:

Are you sure?  The thing is—No, seriously. Think about second. Are you sure? Like really? Two plus two is four? You think so?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes! Two plus two is four.

Kevin Mowers:

Okay. All right. I don’t know if I agree with that. Are you sure? One more time? Are you sure?

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, yes, should I think it’s not anymore?

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. All right. So thank you. So, all right. Let’s process this for a quick second, right? Okay. Two plus two. All right. What was the question? What’s two plus two, right? Well, “too” plus “to.” Those are two different words. I’m not even talking about numbers, Jenn, and you know, you went to the numbers right away. Right. So what happened in the next question? It seems silly, right? But this is a great example for a couple of reasons. One, you and I, I was asking them about something totally different. I didn’t frame it the right way. We talk about how that plays out, but you went to numbers. I went to words. Okay. That’s one issue when I questioned you. What happened? You’re like, what? What?? You know, like you had this emotional response, right? You at one point, you were like, “I think so?” Like also you have this uncertainty, you might even have a little fear.

Like, “What? Like I got this wrong?” But I sense a little frustration. I guess at some point, and you’d probably be angry and be like, “no, I’m right.” At some point, you’re looking at me, and you’re gonna make an inference about me going, “Kevin, you’re a dummy.” Like, what are you talking about? Like, I am done with this conversation. I call those inferences. Like we are constantly pulling data, making these inferences, assuming that there are things that are happening in a way because of what we know. Right? And of course, two plus two is four. We know that. Right. But, but you could see in that quick example how that conflict situation could have played out if that emotional side of it really drove the response.

That’s what happens in these situations, and what we are finding, especially now in 2021, is that people are landing in these polarizing and extreme places. Right. You know, they’re talking about something simple, like two plus two, but if I’m saying it has nothing to do with numbers, and you’re saying it’s all about numbers. Well, guess what, Jenn, you and I, we can’t be friends anymore. I can’t associate with you anymore. Your opinion does not align with my opinion. I don’t value the same thing that you value. We’re done. Why are we going to have this conversation again?

You know, like that, that right there is harmful. That has a significant impact. Like that’s where people get it wrong right out of the gate, you know, is that those inferences take place. We jumped up what I call the ladder of inference. And I’ll talk a little bit about what that looks like here in a second, but we jump up these ladders of inference, and we get to a place where it’s like, you know what, polarizing extreme. I don’t even want anything to do with it anymore. Also, when there’s this conflict, is it a conflict? Okay, let’s back this up a little bit.

Effective Discourse and Managing Conflict

Jenn DeWall:

I’m glad that you bring that piece up. And I mean, because in the U.S. And of course, every country, every country has a unique, you know, challenges whatever’s going on. But as I’m talking about even the US for the last year and a half, two years, it has been like that in terms of how people have resolved the conflict. It has been extremely divisive. There have been a lot of assumptions, regardless of what side you’re on. Like, if you believe in this, you’re a complete X. If you believe in that, you’re a complete X, and it really has created a divide. And I am so tired of allowing politics to be a reason that I don’t connect with people. Because for so long, I’ve had many friends that we have different points of view. We do not agree on the same things. And for so many years, we can have those conversations and still be friends. It’d be fine. Who cares?

And then it felt like within the last few years, all of a sudden, you were meant to really take a stand and like no more– no more trying to work with them. It’s just all judgment on their values, what you perceive for them to believe. And you miss out on all of the wonderful characteristics of how diverse we truly are because you just take one judgment and assume that that is who they are, the person that these are the values that they stand for. I am so sick of that device. And truly, for leaders, it is your job to figure out how you can unite those opinions. Like I’m sick of it. Or there are so many people that I love that we may not have the same views on a lot of different things, but it does not take out the value that they bring to my life, how much I care about them. I’m so tired of the divisiveness. I’m so tired of it.

Amen to that. It’s a challenge, right? It has shaped the way that we operate in 2021 and beyond. What I will say is this is a chance. This is an opportunity for us to reframe how we approach conflict. You know, because those are conflict situations. When you make, when you have an argument, a disagreement, and then you make it polarizing, you have jumped so many different places to get to the extreme that there isn’t a chance for that to come back to Well, what’s really going on. And that’s a part of this process. It’s a part of repairing the harm caused when we find ourselves in these situations. You and I simply having a disagreement about something does not make us enemies. It does not make us, you know, polarizing where I can’t associate with you.

But yet the narrative that has been written today is that. I say, as leaders, reframe that, I say, let’s back that up and really push the notion of what does it mean to have discourse? What does it mean to have arguments? What does it mean to be in a place where, you know, my values, my beliefs still may be different at times? Because that brings value to the organization, brings value to the people that I associate myself with. I don’t want to be. I don’t want to hang out with people who are all like me. That makes life really boring. And it doesn’t allow us to move forward as organizations, either from a leadership standpoint. Right. So how do you, how do you navigate, how do you create these environments for which this lives in a healthy way? That’s the key.

The Ladder of Inference

Jenn DeWall:

So hopefully, this podcast can change people’s perspectives, because again, it’s our role as leaders to unite and value those differences. I know you wanted to come back to the ladder of inference. What the heck does that mean? This is an expression I’ve never heard before. So what is the ladder of inference?

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah, so, you know, for me, this is, this is probably one of the first critical steps in helping resolve the conflict situation. So if you find yourself in these conflict situations, I want to give you some tips and things that you can do to actually help resolve conflict in a healthy way. Right? So the first and foremost is this notion of a ladder of inference. So, we have decisions that we have to make all over the place. Right. You know, think about driving, for example, how many decisions do you make while driving a car?

Thousands, right? You have to collect data. You have to make decisions like you are constantly making these inferences of things that are happening. The same thing applies in relationships when somebody does something you know. We have to make decisions in order to move forward. Otherwise, we’d be frozen literally in time. We wouldn’t go anymore. Okay. So let me go back to an example you gave earlier. Okay? So you’re my boss, I’m your employee, right? You schedule a nine o’clock meeting. I show up at nine 30. I knew the meeting was scheduled at nine. But I’m showing up at nine 30. Now you can sit there and go. Kevin knew about that meeting. Why was Kevin late? Well, he deliberately came in late. Well, if he’s coming in deliberately late and he does this on a regular basis, he’s always late. That means Kevin is a bad employee. I can’t count on Kevin. He’s unreliable. Which means I’ve got to let Kevin go. All right. It’s not working now. All right.

Does that seem unreasonable? No. If I’m always late. Okay. Is that a conflict situation? Yeah, it’s prolonged, right? It’s caused an impact. You scheduled a meeting, and I’m not there. There’s, there are all kinds of things that come out of that. Right? Well, let’s back this up a little bit. So you jumped from Kevin’s always late to Kevin needs to get fired. What’s really going on? All right. I scheduled a meeting at nine o’clock. He didn’t show up until nine-thirty. Let’s engage in a conversation. Jenn says to Kevin, Kevin, why are you late? What’s going on? Kevin responds back with Jenn. I apologize. I have to drop my kid off at eight-forty-five for school, and traffic getting out of school right now at the beginning of the year is terrible. The soonest I can get to work is nine-fifteen. You know, then once I got here at nine-fifteen today, I couldn’t find a parking spot. I got here as quickly as I could. Okay. I understand that. So this has happened quite a bit. Yes, Jenn is the beginning of the school year, three weeks in, and people can’t figure out how to drop their kids off and get them out on time. I think this is going to change. I think it’s going to get different. Okay. Kevin, what do we need to do to help that conversation? I think if we scheduled nine-thirty meetings instead of nine for the next two months, it might help me out. Okay. Different conversation, right? Different outcomes. It’s not getting fired. Kevin doesn’t feel like I don’t want to talk in the third person, but the course of that conversation changes.

So when I talk about the letter of inference, what I tell people is, all right, when these things happen, our response is going to be emotional. So we put that in check. Don’t jump up the ladder of inference to the point of drawing bad conclusions. Walk that step-down, walk up the rung of ladder one step at a time, find out the right pieces of information. When you get to the top of the ladder, essentially, what you want to do is you want to take action, right? If we’re standing at the base of the ladder, we have all this data. We have to figure out what data is relevant. We have to figure out how to interpret it. We have to then make conclusions that allow us to take action. We can’t do that if we’re making rash decisions.

So the first tip I have as far as resolving conflict in a healthy way is to stop personally, and make sure that you’re collecting the right piece of the data. Make sure you’re having the conversations, the dialogue, asking the right questions. That’s going to help you land in a place where you can then make decisions. Okay. Does that make sense?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I think that’s an important real-life example. I know in my experience in HR, I had a similar situation. There was an employee that had some personal things. I think they were actually also school-related for her children. And she had asked the leader if she could, you know, they had already had a little friction. Right. And it was something unrelated. And then she asked him for two days of the week if she could adjust her working hours to later because of school drop-off. So it was something around that. And this leader took it all the way up the ladder to getting HR involved, to thinking like, do we need to let this person go? When in actuality, this person was a great employee. There was, I would say, just an individual thing that was going on with their kid, with their schooling, that she just needed a little bit of accommodation, not a reason to lose that employee.

And my heart, even hearing that employee, I was just more from an HR perspective. Bless the hearts of like. You know the type of employee relations. HR professionals have to, you know, work and manage through because some of them are just, you know, it’s a result of someone, as you said, going all the way up that ladder of inference. And making a decision instead of being like, is there something I’m missing here? Can we do this a different way? And then you watch the employee being upset. You watch the manager being upset. When it didn’t have to get to that point. So, I really appreciate you sharing that because there are a lot of examples. I’m sure other leaders can think of where if we had just backed up and walked, you know, down and then back up the ladder, we could probably see the situation in another way. So that’s one tip. So what is the, so the ladder of inference is one tip. What’s the next tip?

Managing Conflict Through Better Storytelling

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. So the second tip I’m going to give you is storytelling. So I’d mentioned storytelling a few times now, and I mentioned just in that last example of the ladder of inference, understanding and trying to learn more, the importance of storytelling when it comes to conflict is huge. I would say probably the biggest thing you can do to help resolve conflict. Okay.

Jenn DeWall:

What do you mean? Storytelling! I don’t have time to hear or listen to your story.

Kevin Mowers:

I’m saying, take the time. Because you know what happens? I think we know how to tell stories. I think we can, we know what that looks like, so I’m not going to spend time there. But what happens when you’re telling stories is one it’s allowing you to understand the other person’s perspective. It’s helping you get a deeper insight on what that emotional response is. Asking the right questions in those stories. That’s going to be critical. You know, so dialogues are great. In, in the restorative justice world, we have things called circle dialogues in which there are people that are involved, you bring the people together in a circle. We’ll talk about it

Jenn DeWall:

Like a circle formation –

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah, a circle formation, but that, you know, the point is people that are- everyone who’s impacted everyone who’s involved. They share their stories so that everyone gets to hear that. Using a trained facilitator, a trained mediator, to help ask those questions. Those are all good things to help tell a story. The other reason storytelling is important and why it needs to happen when it comes to resolving conflict is that it breaks down walls. Okay. So when we are in these conflict situations, the first thing we do is have these emotional responses. The second thing we do is build these walls. They’re defensive walls.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh, I’m a professional wall builder. And by the way, I was teasing about storytelling before, but I am definitely a professional wall builder, even though I know better.

Kevin Mowers:

And also, we tell these stories, we ask people to share their stories. We listen to help break those walls down. That’s the significance of it. You know, it helps us understand, as people who are trying to resolve the conflict, understand the impact, the harm that’s being caused of it. But it’s also allowing the walls to come down because if the walls are still there when it comes to trying to implement a solution, nothing’s going to happen. We want those defensive walls to come down so that we could talk about, you know, the next best thing in this process, tip number three, which is finding solutions that address the harms. Okay. So number one, tip, check your ladder of inference. You know, tip number two, storytelling, find ways for people to share their stories when they’re in these situations. The third thing is to find ways to repair the harm.

Kevin Mowers:

Okay. Let me talk about one thing real quick. Before I jump into this, there’s a difference between rules and impact. Okay. Our society is driven by rules. Think about it for a second. If you, if you drive down the road right now and you go a hundred miles an hour, it’s against the law, right? What’s going to happen to you?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I could get a speeding ticket. I could hurt someone.

Kevin Mowers:

Yup. Yup. If that happens too many times, you’re going to lose your license. They can lock you up, insert whatever situation. Typically, there’s going to be a rule that’s tied to that our society is driven off of that premise. So if you break the rule, then the question becomes, how do I punish you? All right.

Jenn DeWall:

What’s the consequence.

Kevin Mowers:

What’s the consequence in this conversation. What I’m saying is, instead of saying, what is the rule? I’m saying, what is the impact of that rule being broken? So in that specific situation that we just talked about, you driving a hundred miles an hour, you could get in a wreck, get severely hurt, you might hurt somebody else. You’re causing an officer to have to pull you over to deal with you when they could be dealing with someone else. I mean, you could go on as far as what the level impact is, but there is a difference between this notion of rules versus impact. What I’m saying is a tip number three— is focus on the impact, focus on the harm.

Okay. Go back to my wife and me, for example. Okay. You know, we, we, you know, we can get an argument on how our finances are used, right? You know, where we spend money, how we spend it, all that stuff comes into play. I could get really upset about her spending 40 bucks at Kohl’s, or I can come back to the conversation and say, Hey, I’m struggling with this because that $40 could have paid for the kids’ basketball camp this year. You know? So it’s not only impacting me because I’m upset about that. But you know, it’s impacting my daughter. She can’t do, she can’t do basketball camp. And that’s just an example. Right. I am focusing on the rules. So instead of my wife’s spending $40, I’m not worried about that. That made me upset. I had that moment. I’m then talking to her about all right, the impact of that then, is this. That’s the difference? Okay. So when we find ourselves in these complex situations at work, somebody showed up late, somebody broke a rule, somebody did X, Y, and Z, okay. That lives, that has its place.

Focus on Impact Instead of Blame

Kevin Mowers:

But then our conversations lead to then shift to what is the impact? What is the harm that’s caused by that situation? All right. When we check our inferences, when we story-tell to understand the full, you know, aspect of what this looks like, we understand a little bit better what that impact and what that harm is. That then allows us to focus on solutions that address those harms first and foremost. That’s how you start resolving conflict in a healthy way. That’s what leads you down the path of saying, all right, there’s a solution to this. There isn’t an extreme polarizing. I’m right. You’re wrong. You broke a rule. I’m going to punish you. Okay. This happened. Let’s figure out how to resolve it in a way that’s going to make a difference.

Jenn DeWall:

I think you pointed or to a place that I think a lot of people get it wrong, right? They miss the opportunity. Because when we think about storytelling, it’s connecting people to the big picture. But to remember that your new hires, people that might be new to the workforce, are not going to be thinking big picture because that’s just not what they’ve needed to do, or they haven’t been a part of your organization to really understand that. And your storytelling allows them to see their impact. And without it, without connecting to the why you can keep telling them to do the exact same thing. But when they don’t know why they don’t necessarily have the motivation, or they don’t understand the consequence of not doing something. And maybe it’s your, even if you’re thinking about that employee, because I know that they’re there that are like, I hate the grunt work. I don’t like the stuff that’s redundant. Well, you know what, you’re the stuff that you perceive as grunt work is actually essential to how we treat our customers. It’s so important. And so I think, you know, just taking the time to slow down, to speed up and actually start with that storytelling allows you to find the solution.

So I love that, but why, so why else? Because you have other benefits, like why else? So when we focus on identifying the impact, which I also thought of even having, I know this as a problem, not a perfect example as it relates to that, but this month at Crestcom, we’re talking about, or we share the story of Sully and landing the plane on the Hudson. And when I think about, you know, some of the, I guess, feedback that he received after this, it wasn’t great, right? He didn’t follow protocol. He, but yet when you look at the impact, he saved all of those lives and landed it, you know, appropriately. And I even think about that. And sometimes, yeah, we have to determine and not only stick to the rule but think about the outcomes that we’re getting. So not sure where that is relevant, but I did connect that.

Kevin Mowers:

If it’s relevant, right? Because I think that forced the aviation industry to reframe how they approach a situation like that. Right? You have rules, he broke the rules. Let’s punish him. Well, actually, no, we have rules. He improvised. He actually did all the right things, saved lives. We need to check ourselves. We need to back this inference up a little bit. We heard his story. We heard what really took place. Let’s figure out solutions. Then that makes sense. We’re not going to punish them. We’re not going to fire him. We’re actually going to hold them to esteem in what we do. So, so thank you for sharing that. You said something that kind of triggered a few thoughts, you know, the why. Why is this important? You know, why should we look at inferences? Why should we story-tell? You know, why should we focus on solutions that think about the harm and impact? When we start thinking through those lenses first and foremost, what that does is, is it rebuilds trust.

Repairing Harm

Kevin Mowers:

So when we’re in these situations where conflict happens, trust usually as the first thing that said question, okay, to what degree? Totally different conversation. But we allow ourselves to start rebuilding trust in that conversation. The other thing it does is it advocates for the needs of the things that are taking place in those situations, typically the emotional needs, but they’re also may be other needs at play. Right? So that, that latter example I gave you, I need to drop my kids off at school. My needs are there. I can’t. I can’t just send my kids and say good luck. Right? You get to advocate. You get to actually help me in this. You’re advocating for my needs. So building trust, advocating for people’s needs in these situations are important. We can respond with purpose and intention, which is huge. How many times have you ever been in a situation where somebody says, Hey, I’m sorry, Jenn. And you’re like, yeah. I don’t think you are. You know, that really didn’t feel like that didn’t feel like you truly are apologetic or sincere.

Well, you are repairing harm. Having somebody actually do things to repair the harm demonstrates purpose, demonstrates intentionality behind us, moving forward through this conflict situation, getting to a resolution. The other piece that I’ll throw in there. And you mentioned accountability several times, and I’ve yet to mention that it is a huge part of this conversation for a couple of different reasons. But when you engage in storytelling, when you engage in the social checking where biases aren’t inference that are at play, when you focus on repairing the harm, that’s where true accountability takes place. True accountability happens when somebody understands the impact that they cause to somebody else, you can quote me on that. It’s actually in a book, okay? Whose story?

The little book of restorative justice we’ll get to that. But accountability is a big piece of this know. So we, we, we’re driving accountability by engaging in those processes. And accountability needs to be present. You know, if I was to say, what are the staples? What are the foundations of being restorative, thinking about impact and harm when it comes to conflict, it’s rebuilding trust. It’s advocating for people’s needs. It’s responding with purpose, and it’s active accountability. Those pieces have to be a part of that question. I often get this point in the conversation, is great. You know, this sounds awesome. You know, also sounds kind of magical. And I don’t know if it’s going to work in every situation.

Let me, let me address that because that’s real. It’s not. This stuff is not applicable in every situation. I think it’s applicable in most situations, but this doesn’t work when 1 – people aren’t actively accountable in the process.

Conflict Management Requires Real Accountability

Kevin Mowers:

If you have somebody who doesn’t want to engage, if you have somebody that doesn’t take ownership over this, if you have somebody who’s just downright dismissing the situation, this isn’t going to work. It’s going to be a real challenge. You’re going to be an uphill battle. Not saying it can’t work, but you’re going to be in a battle. Basic moral, good versus evil. Okay. Somebody can’t comprehend what is good or bad. And I’m talking about the worst of worst in our society. This is where it doesn’t play out. Okay. So am I advocating for restorative justice when it comes to the, you know, murderers, you know, that do the most bridges, grievous crimes in our society, not necessarily but– But there are examples in which restorative justice has been used in murder situations. Okay. That could be a whole other conversation, but I’m not dismissing that at the same time it makes it challenging.

The other piece, I think is probably the most important, is when there is such an impact, such a harm, cause that it can not be repaired. The challenge was that we had to look here internally and say, all right, can this be repaired with me first and foremost? I’m going to make the argument. In most cases I can, if our hearts are in the right place and our hearts are and move forward in the way that we’ve been talking today, there’s a chance. But there are situations that happen in which harm can’t be repaired. You know, for example, you’re at work. Boss is constantly doing things. You’ve done all that you can possibly do, you know, to address the situation, but yet it continues and you continue to get impacted emotionally by this. Well, maybe it’s time for you to leave. Maybe it’s time to find a new place to work. Right. maybe that conflict situation that has then become a prolonged, significant impact, it can’t be resolved.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s an important piece to bring up because a lot of people might still be tolerating situations that aren’t great for them, whether that’s in a relationship or whether that’s even your work environment, whether or not that’s healthy and productive and a place that you need to be is that sometimes there has to be the point where we say it can’t be repaired. And I’m not going to endure XYZ to be able to try and live off of hope. Like, I’m just going to say it can’t be repaired. And some things it can be,

Kevin Mowers:

That’s the difference, right? So you at least then have a reason versus, Boy, Jenn, I just don’t like you. And I don’t like what you believe, thus, I’m not going to have anything to do with you. Like there is a difference, right? It’s not polarizing. And there’s a reason as to why you make that decision.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And that, I mean, I think the accountability piece is huge just for each of us as individuals, you might have to take a hard look at yourself. You might have to reflect on some situations that maybe you’ve had conflict, just like myself. I don’t love how I showed up in my twenties. I think that there are people that probably loved working with me. And there are definitely people that were like if I don’t see Jenn ever again, its totally fine. And I, you know, I respect that, but it’s, it is hard. I don’t want to say it’s hard. It’s, it’s not even easy for me to share these moments of imperfection and mistakes. Right. It’s hard, but it has to start with that because if you don’t own it, you can’t control it. And if don’t own the fact that sometimes I get too emotionally riled in situations, then I can’t manage those emotions in those situations. Or I can’t even make a repair attempt to apologize. Hey, I have a tendency to XYZ. And so I love that. Just talking about, you know, if we don’t take accountability, there’s no, there’s nothing that’s going to happen.

Learning to Manage Conflict is a Journey

Kevin Mowers:

No, that’s why I said what I said at the beginning. For me, this is a journey. It’s one that I don’t see it ever ending in any way, shape or form. You know, I have talked about conflict for years now. You know, I’m studying it. I’m passionate about it, but I hate, I don’t like conflict still. Don’t in fact, I’m probably the worst at conflict in my immediate family, with the ones who I love the most, which is really a sad story. Okay. And I admit that, you know, but I also admit it saying not there’s an opportunity here for me to grow, to become better. I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better husband. I want to be a better business owner. I want to do things better day to day. I want to move hearts. I want to move my heart in this conversation. Right. Like that’s the difference. And that’s why I say it’s a journey. It’s a process. It does not end in the thing that, you know, conflict and master it and will never happen again to you. Again, I will challenge and I will say, nah, that’s not real. I’m gonna, I’m gonna call BS on that one.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. Kevin, I think there are just a lot of really interesting considerations in terms of why we can’t resolve it, how we can resolve it. What are any final thoughts that you would like to share with our audience before we wrap up?

Kevin Mowers:

Yeah. Yeah. I think what comes to mind that maybe I haven’t talked about yet is one, if it’s not, if it’s not uncomfortable, you’re probably not doing it right. And I’ve often said that in context of asking the right questions, are we doing all that we can do? But when it comes to the reality of how these things play out in the work that we need to do with it, there’s intentionality behind it. There has to be purpose behind it. And if that’s not uncomfortable, you’re probably not engaging in the right conversation. So I would say, keep that in mind in the conversation, you know, this work has always done with people, not to people. So if we want to have a good, healthy conversation around conflict or a conflict situation, we do that with each other. I don’t do that to you as my employee.

I don’t do that to you as my friend. I don’t do that to you as my wife, we do this together as an example. And again, I think for me, the biggest thing, our, all this is, is think about the harm. Think about the impact. You know, if we’re focusing on that, that first and foremost, it sets the catalyst to every other facet of how we engage in storytelling, how we engage in how we look at our inferences that we’re making our biases and those conversations. So, you know, think about those things. You know, the three tips, inferences, storytelling, thinking about harm. It needs to be uncomfortable to some degree to do it well, to do it right. And we do this with people. It’s all about the relationships and the people that we have.

Jenn DeWall:

We are in the business of working with people, not robots. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I just love your passion for this. It makes me even think that I want to have you back to even talk about what are questions that we can ask to help people embrace conflict, because there are, you know, you talked about questions that there are still people that are like, I don’t want to go into that discomfort that you’re recommending Kevin, but maybe it’s just giving people some guidance on how to navigate those conversations, which is what we can bring you back for. I would love to have it. Kevin, how can people connect with you?

Kevin Mowers:

Best way. Shoot me an email at kevin.mowers@crestcom.com. I’m on all social media platforms. Well, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. Kevin Mowers is where you can find me on all those platforms. Jenn, I appreciate the time.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Kevin, thank you for what you do. Thank you for just developing the leaders in Ohio. But obviously, now you’re touching the hearts of a broader audience, and we’re grateful for you.

Kevin Mowers:

Thanks, Jenn. I appreciate it.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope you’ve enjoyed the conversation with Kevin, and if you want to connect with him, you can connect with him at LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-mowers/, or you can send them an email at Kevin.Mowers@crestcom.com and also connect with them on any of your social media platforms. If you enjoyed today’s episode or know someone that could benefit from talking about conflict and finding healthier ways to resolve it, share this episode with them, share it with your team members, share it with your leaders because we know that when we resolve conflict in a better way, great things can happen. And if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service.

 

The post Managing Conflict with Kevin Mowers, CEO of Extended Management, a Crestcom Franchise appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Drive Your Career with Leadership Coach and Author, Ed Evarts

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. I sat down with Ed Evarts, who is the founder and president of Excellius Leadership Development, an organization focused on coaching mid to senior-level leaders and their teams in business environments. With over 25 years of innovative leadership and management experience, Ed possesses the ability to build awareness, create action, and deliver results. He is known for his business acumen and his ability to resolve complex human relations issues, and his enthusiastic, accessible and responsive style. Ed partners with managers and leaders in business teams to explore clarity and communication and traverse conflict and change. And today, Ed and I are going to be talking about how you can drive your career.

Meet Ed Evarts, Author of Drive Your Career

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. This is Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with Ed Evarts. Ed and I are going to talk all about how you can drive your career, which is such an important topic right now is we’re hearing things like the mass resignation or people are talking about burnout, or maybe people have just been waiting ideally to determine what that next move is. Or maybe you’ve just been sitting there because you’re like, I don’t even know where to start. And those are the questions that we hope to be able to answer today. So Ed, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

Ed Evarts:

Thank you, Jenn. I’m thrilled to be here.

Jenn DeWall:

So can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your business Excellius what do you do?

Ed Evarts:

Sure. So today, I am a leadership coach. I’m a team coach, and I also do small business strategy. I’ve authored two books, Drive Your Career, which I hope we’ll talk about a little bit today. And my first book, Raise Your Visibility and Value. And I also host a podcast called Be Brave at Work, where we talk a little bit about how people can be braver in the workplace and hopefully leave them with one or two ideas or strategies and things they can do in order to be more successful. In my prior career, before I became a leadership coach, I worked in human resources and provided business strategy to mostly retail organizations from college for the first 20 years, and then worked at a business to business services company for the next ten years. And then, I  left that company in 2008 to start my own practice.

Why Should We Drive Our Own Careers?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And well, you’re doing important work, and I guess starting out, I kind of have a question because a lot of organizations, you know, I, for my first time, I just got brought into an organization to talk about career development and I don’t see a lot more organizations necessarily bringing in someone to talk about their career development. And why do you think that is? Like, why do organizations kind of shy away from taking a role? And it really just lies with the leader.

Moving Beyond Performance Reviews

Ed Evarts:

Well, organizations evolve as time passes. And you know, I think we’re finally getting to the point where we realize things like performance assessments, the way we have done them for the last 40 years, are not working. That training the way that we have done it for the last 40 years isn’t working. And organizations used to be the place where you, where you went to work, and they would do all this for you. They would provide you training, and they would provide you all these things. And I think that’s evolving as well, where they now expect you to do it, right? So, Hey, we’re not going to provide you the training necessarily. There’ll be some basic skill enhancements, but then, you know, some people call them softer skills. I call them harder skills like communication, delegation, accountability, conflict navigation, things of that nature. You know, we’re not going to provide you. You have to go off and find that as well. So it’s a fairly subtle change, but you can see it happening in organizations around the globe where you are becoming more the person that you have to take responsibility to do those things versus your organization, doing it for you.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I appreciate that insight. I just, as you were speaking, I was thinking like, how happy would the workforce be if we could change our performance appraisal conversations, or even the whole process, which depending on what your organization does, it can feel really long and tedious. And I often used to wait for the email reminders just to be like, this is your last day to submit, but wouldn’t it be lovely if organizations could replace that whole process with just more dialogue around how to drive your career at work and talking about how are you going to achieve this goal? What can you do? How can I help you? How can I support you? I mean, bringing in all of the Ed Evarts in the world and helping people navigate this, instead of feeling like, okay, what’s going to be my goal for this. And I mean, I’m not sure about the clients that you’ve worked with, but I know in my experience, sometimes it feels so redundant to do a performance appraisal because it’s something that is a set and forget. I don’t feel like every company actually monitors it. And so you spend two, three hours again, depending on how time-intensive it is. And I’ve, I’ve done a few of them, but why, why does someone forget? Like why are we continuing to help or make people do this? It is just. It’s the definition of insanity in my book because if we’re not going to use it, why are we wasting people’s time and having them create it just so we can check a box and say they did it?

Ed Evarts:

Oh, no, that might be their motivation. I agree with you. I think it would be lovely if we moved away from kind of the structured annual performance assessments, which have failed. They have not achieved whatever it is that they were originally intended to achieve. And by the way, this is a model that was created back in the forties and fifties where the work structure and the way that we operate we’re different. And so today, we’re much more technologically advanced. We’re much more conversational. People know things about you and me that, you know, ten years ago, they never would have ever known because they can look us up on LinkedIn and Facebook and the internet and find these things out. So, you know, companies need the model and mirror what people are experiencing. And so clients that I work with, and there are some that still have forms or online systems that use people still get numbers.

Ed Evarts:

Like you’re a 4.5 out of five and things of this nature. And it just feels so archaic. And what I’m attempting to do. And I have colleagues who do this only for a living. They manage performance assessment processes is move people to more frequent conversations about how you’re doing what you need to do to be successful more frequently. So we can fix it at the moment versus waiting until the end of the year when so much time has gone by. I can’t even remember what it is that you’re talking about and helped me at the moment. So I hope organizations kind of wake up and see that there are more effective ways to manage performance, manage career and manage people. Then these stuffy processes that we inherited from people of the past.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And just to all the leaders right now, think about the time that you would get back from having to do because all of the leaders have to then do their own work for each employee’s performance appraisal. And that is also insanely time-consuming. So we’re planting seeds right now. We’re planting seeds efforts are hoping that people will start to say, like, yeah, there’s gotta be a different way. So we’re going to dive into,

Ed Evarts:

I guess, just quickly, Jenn, I mean, and to your point, people don’t do performance appraisal writing effectively. So it’s not just the process itself that doesn’t work, but I would guarantee you that nine times out of ten, most performance assessments are written the night before that, you know, people put it off because they don’t enjoy it. They don’t get energy out of evaluating others. And so I put it off, I put it off and then Monday is the day I’ve scheduled to meet with you. And I will guarantee you that Sunday night, I am working to craft what it is that I want to talk with you about. So it’s not just the delivery system that doesn’t work. It’s the creation system that doesn’t work either. It doesn’t work for anyone.

What Inspired You to Write Drive Your Career?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. That’s great. I appreciate that insight because you’re right. It’s, it becomes then less about, you know, really thinking about what that person is and truly evaluating them and more about being, you know, short to complete the appraisal before the meeting. And so then I think it leads to more generic feedback, not thought out, probably, maybe he was like maybe more of a knee-jerk, emotional response that’s close to. So whatever you experienced in the moment, instead of thinking about, you know, the length of your relationship, I just, oh my gosh. I think that’s such an interesting perspective and where we get it wrong. We’re going to be talking about your book, drive your career. So nine high-impact ways to take responsibility for your own success. What inspired you to write this book?

Ed Evarts:

Well, I’ve been a leadership coach now for about 15 years. And my first book, Raise Your Visibility and Value was really based on my 18 years in corporate America. And what I had experienced as a leader growing and evolving, and sometimes not growing and evolving, in order to be more successful. And after 15 years as a leadership coach, I realized that there were certain stories that I would share with clients repeatedly. And regardless of whether they were a president or a frontline supervisor, these stories came up naturally. I didn’t bring them up purposefully, but based on their situation and their needs, you know, these stories came up and, you know, one of those shower moments where I said, you know what? I should pay attention to what these stories are. Because I noticed one day that I once again shared another story with another client, and I ultimately identified nine behaviors or actions, whatever you’d like to call them, that I think people should be more aware of in order to drive their career. Most people or many people are more passengers in their career. They end up wherever they end up, and I believe people need to be more of a driver of their career. They need to think about where they want to go. They need to then think about how they’re going to get there, and then the need then need to take action in order to make it happen. So what do you want to do? How do you want to have an impact? Where do you want to go? And let’s drive your career in that direction

Jenn DeWall:

I really appreciated your book. I mean, not only the nine strategies on what we can do or the ways, you know, the techniques, but really those stories because the story is normalized. I think some of the shame, or just fear that we have around our career development, but before we dive more into some of those stories, cause I want to talk about that when we talk about the nine ways, why is it important to drive your career at work?

Are You the Driver or the Passenger?

Ed Evarts:

Well, as I mentioned a couple of moments ago, most people wake up one day and say, how did I get here? What am I doing? I don’t enjoy it. You know, why am I doing what I’m doing? Right. They have this moment where it just doesn’t feel right or doesn’t sit right with them. And so I’m attempting to help people really restructure the context of how they’re operating to say, well, when’s the last time you asked yourself, am I doing what I want to be doing? You know, some people are even in the wrong career, they may be in, you know doing audit and the finance department, and they don’t like audit or don’t want to be doing auditing. Right. So, you know, the needs and experiences of people are significantly different. So it’s more about restructuring the context and saying, Hey, let me think about what I want to do next, where I want to go and what I want to do.

You know, Jenn, we hear a lot of people have these mid-career moments where they were an attorney at a big New York City law firm, and they quit. And they now run a bed and breakfast in Vermont. Right? I mean, it’s just like significant changes. And it’s like, well, how did that happen? Well, it happened, I think because they said at one point, why am I here? What am I doing? I’m not enjoying this as much as I thought I would have. Now. I thought being an attorney at a big New York City law firm would be wonderful, but it’s not. It’s not what I thought it would be. And so this is designed to help people earlier decide what I want to do. Where do I want to go? Where I want to be and take certain steps and actions in order to make it happen.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh gosh, I, I want to ask the question because I think that’s where the meat is. Why do we stay the passenger? I know in both of our work as coaches, we likely have a lot of, we see a lot of different things, a lot of different things. And why is it that people still stay stuck from your perspective? Why is it that we remain the passenger instead of jumping into that front seat and owning it? What do you think what’s the motivation or the narrative or the messages that we’re telling ourselves that we’re just not, you know, building up that motivation to actually change.

Ed Evarts:

Yeah. I think it is more of a narrative, and I’m not a sociologist, so I have not studied this technically, but the workplace moves quickly, right? We work in places at time, goes by very fast. And you know, we always joke, I can’t believe it’s already X month in the year, or I can’t believe it’s X year, or I can’t believe I’m turning X age. Right. I mean, we’re very tied to time, and I believe it just goes by very quickly. So, you know, we’re just not in an environment where people ask us to think about what we want to do next and how we want to do it. That’s why going back to our earlier comment about performance assessments, you know, I believe those conversations also need to include career development, and you should be asking people who are great auditors, or great attorneys, or great manufacturing professionals. Do you enjoy this? Is this providing you what you hoped it would provide? What’s missing from what you’re doing. I mean, these are great motivating conversations to have with people. And who knows that attorney might’ve said, it’s so funny. You should ask that because I was just speaking with my spouse yesterday, and I don’t know that I’m enjoying this as much as I thought I would. That would be brave to say at work, but those are the types of thoughts and comments. But you know, I think it’s a narrative based on just how fast the world turns and time goes by. And now I sit here and say, Hey, I’m going to join this company. I’m going to stay for about a year and then move on. And then the next thing, you know, five years have gone by, and it’s like, how did that happen? So I think it’s time moving quickly and faster than our ability to keep up with it.

Jenn DeWall:

I’m curious. Do you still see, because I hear a lot of this that, you know, people staying stuck in their career become, it comes down to, well, there’s either the comparison. Well, I feel like everyone else’s wants this in my organization, so I should want it too, or what I notice a lot more with gen Z and millennials is that there’s this pressure or perceived expectation that their parents want them to do this. Or that the people there need to see them, you know, maybe pursue this organization or this type of, I guess, career. And so they feel like if they don’t do what other people want them to do, then they’re not getting it right. And so then they just stay there and tolerate a job that they don’t like or they’re not passionate about.

Ed Evarts:

Yeah. There’s a lot of reasons why people do what they do. And just to echo some of your thoughts, some of its hierarchy, my parents were teachers. So I thought I needed to become a teacher. Or the parents may have said, we want you to become a teacher. It’s a great life. And you know, we really want you to do this. Some of it might be financial, right. There may be times where you’re now at a salary rate that you just can’t give up and of your personal finances and the house you have and the cars you have. You just can’t walk away and say, Hey, I’m going to leave that law firm and become a bed and breakfast owner because the drop of income will be so great that I just can’t do that. So, you know, I think there’s a number of reasons why, and they all vary, by the way. Your reasons may be different than my reasons, but may be different from someone else’s reasons.

Ed Evarts:

But you know, we all have reasons why we are doing what we’re doing. Now, let me pause for a second and say, there’s a lot of people who are doing things they love doing. I’m not suggesting everybody is stuck in a role that they don’t enjoy. You know, there are many people who do exactly what they want to do, and are really, really good at it. And you know, certainly celebrities and people that we see in the news, maybe examples of some of those. But, you know, there are a subset of people who may not be doing exactly what they want to be doing or enjoy it and need to stop, pause and drive their career.

Create a Positive Relationship with Your Boss

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. And maybe that’s time to dive into it because it’s, this is an important conversation. If you are sitting here, you’re in the passenger seat; we’re going to help you shift into the driving or the driver’s seat. And even just thinking that no matter what your age is, no matter what your background is, no matter what the financial limitations are, you can still change. Now. I’m not saying the change is going to be easy, but I am saying to, you know, keep an open mind as Ed and I are going to dive into his book, drive your career, to talk about the nine ways that you can drive your career. So let’s dive into it. And I love this. And I want you to share that story from chapter one by talking about your first one. So one of your first ways was to have a positive relationship with your boss. Tell me a little bit more about why that’s essential in driving your career.

Ed Evarts:

So this is such an important characteristic of behavior, of most work environments, and I’m sure many of your listeners are shaking their heads saying, yeah, I need to have a better relationship with my boss, or I do have a great relationship with my boss, but you know, our boss-subordinate relationships are so critically important because your boss is really the gatekeeper for your career. If there are projects or assignments or roles that are being discussed, they’re the ones who might say, Hey, Jenn is a great person for this. I think she’d be perfect for that. If you don’t have a great relationship with your boss, that may not happen, right? They may pass you over or not think about you, or don’t want to think about you because you don’t have a great relationship with them. So my point in the chapter is that it’s important to sit back and say, you know, on a scale of one to six, if I was to think about the relationship I have with my boss, where would I score myself with one being horrible?

You know, we don’t talk to each other, and we avoid each other at all times. Or we’re a six, right? We finish each other’s sentences and know we love each other. And we go out to dinner every Friday night. We’re great friends and coworkers, et cetera. So, you know, where are you? And not suggest that if anybody is at a four or lower, that there are things they need to be doing, and this is you, not your boss. And that’s another challenge people have. They say, well, why shouldn’t my boss do it? And all change starts with you. So if you want to have a better relationship with your boss, you have to start doing things in order to plant the seed or get that conversation going. And I will guarantee all of the listeners that the better your relationship is with your boss, the better career experience you will have. The worse a relationship you have with your boss, you are not having a good time at work.

Jenn DeWall:

Right? That is the place that you love. I love you’ve shared one of the stories here, and I think it’s important because someone might be thinking right now. Well, I have a great relationship with my boss. I don’t even need to worry about this. I’ll tune out for this part of the conversation, but you have a story here about a gentleman who had, you know, received or achieved a lot of different success. He had a great relationship with his boss, and then things changed. Can you share that story with us?

Ed Evarts:

Sure. This is, you know, all the stories in the book are based on real-life experiences. So the names have been changed, of course, to protect the guilty. But in chapter one, we talk about an individual who was hired by a boss with whom he had a great relationship. And during the six years they worked together, everything went great. Salary grew, the role grew, goals, projects were given to this individual, and they had a great relationship to the extent that, and I didn’t mention this in the chapter, but to the extent that the employee may have taken it for granted like, Hey, this is just how it is. And this is how I’m experiencing it. And everything is fantastic. The boss ended up leaving for another opportunity, and a new boss came in, and the individual and his new boss could not be more different.

So this new person was not like his prior boss could not be more different in respect to leadership style and behavior. The individual in the chapter did not make any effort to say, gee, this relationship is not great. What am I going to do in order to improve it? Projects diminished, visibility diminished. The island this person was on got smaller and smaller until the point he was laid off. So this is a very common activity. When new leaders come into an organization, oftentimes, new leaders bring in people they used to work with because they know these people, and they know that they can work with them well. That doesn’t mean that the door for you is shut, but it means you need to go into overdrive in respect to ensuring, Hey, you’re a new boss, I’m a new employee. Let’s talk about each other’s styles and how we can work together because I want to be wildly successful for you. I want us to have a great relationship and ensure that things work out well. These are not conversations that we’re having in the environment. And if chapter one, if that employee had had that conversation with the boss, you know, my impression would be that they would not have been laid off, and things would have gone a lot better.

Take Ownership of Work Relationships

Jenn DeWall:

What would you say to people that think that maybe the leader is the one that needs to drive that conversation? Because I think there are plenty of leaders that probably aren’t having that conversation with maybe a new employee or someone that they’ve inherited. As you talked about in the book. What do you say to the individuals that feel like the ownership is on the boss to drive that conversation? Because I think there are probably people that feel like they might be overstepping a boundary if they’re the ones that are driving it.

Ed Evarts:

So, you know, all I can tell you, Jenn, is that if you’re feeling something you own taking action on it. So if you’re feeling that you don’t have a great relationship with your boss, you need to do something. You can’t sit back and wait for your boss who may not know, or may not care about the state of your relationship. But if you don’t think you have a great relationship and it takes bravery to say to your boss, Hey, I think our relationship is fairly strong, but I think it could be better. Are you willing to work with me to identify two or three things that we could both be doing a little bit differently to enhance it? Of course, I would hope the boss would say, absolutely. Let’s talk about it and you figure it out two or three things it might do. And that’s just the start. That’s just getting going so that you can continue, can continue to have these conversations with your boss. This isn’t a time discussion, but this is an ongoing annual or twice a year type conversation. But you know, all I can tell you is that if you’re feeling something we can’t, we can’t manage the emotions of others. We have to take action in order to improve it.

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Jenn DeWall:

Now in that chapter, you also talk about something that I think doesn’t come to mind earlier on it. I mean, it didn’t, at least for me in the early part of my career, which is what your bosses’ goals are? What are their career aspirations? What are they hoping to accomplish? Why is that important to understand what your boss wants?

Ed Evarts:

Well, in this fast-paced environment we work in, we are all obsessed with our own goals, our own projects, our own performance, you know, it’s all me, me, me, me, me. And in order to build a great relationship, you have to find space and time to understand what’s important to others. Because if you are all me, me, me, then that’s all you will ever be. And you won’t have great relationships with others. So in that effort to have a better relationship with your boss, one of the things you might ask is, what do you want to do? How do you want to be successful? What’s important to you as a leader in this organization, because I want to help you get there. But if I don’t know what they are, I can’t help you. Now it’s disappointing in some respects that bosses don’t know this and say to people, Hey, I just wanted to get the team together. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what I think is important. What I think we should be working on, et cetera, lots of bosses don’t do that. But I think it’s a great relationship enhancer. If you find time to talk with your boss about what’s important to him or her on their career and their goals, how did you get here? What are you looking to do? What’s important to you. For our listeners, I think that’s a great thing and a great activity to do in order to enhance the relationship.

Are You a Helper or a Hurter?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And you talk about the notion of being a helper. And I think that when you think about it, through the perspective of being a helper, it gives you may be a sense of purpose and how you can develop that positive relationship because you’re there to serve, right? It’s servant-based leadership, then what can I do to help? And hopefully, there’s reciprocity in that where that leader will then, in turn, say, how can I help you? But let’s talk a little bit about being a helper. And I forget the other word that you had said, be a helper, but not a blank.

Ed Evarts:

A hurter! So if you do that, if you do that exercise of assessing where you are on a scale of one to six, if you’re a four or lower, you might be a hurter. And you know, it sounds overly simplistic, but it’s how we think about people. You know, when you think about your team or think about people you work with, some people are helpers, right? If you need something, they always say yes, or they challenge you and ask you a little bit more about it, whatever it might be, but they help you in respect to moving forward and making great progress. Others are hurters, right? They’re what we call high transaction people. They take too much time. They ask too many questions. They pull down the energy and the mood. In order to help things move more effectively, I would tell you that as a spouse, as a parent, as a next-door neighbor, as a leadership coach, as a person, I want to be a helper.

I want to be somebody who, if somebody crosses paths with me, even if I only direct them to somebody else, they’re always going to view me and see me as somebody who felt I do not want to be seen or be experienced as a hurter with anyone. Now, there may be one or two people that that might be appropriate. I’m not saying the world, but in general, you know, I want to be a helper. And so you should think to yourself when I think about my relationship with my boss, and by the way, you can also think about this with peers and subordinates. Would my boss say I’m a helper? Or would my boss say I’m in the middle? Which isn’t great. Or would my boss say, you know, quite frankly, Ed, you’re asking the question, and I want to be honest with you. I feel like you’re a hurter, right? That you’re hurting our efforts. You’re hurting our organization, and you’re hurting the projects. And here’s why. So it’s hard to hear these things, but you can’t make progress unless you know how people feel about you or else you’re always going to be in la-la land thinking that it’s better than it really is.

You Need Self-Awareness AND Self-Management

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I love this. And I think it’s a great segue into the second way. But you know, as we wrap up the first way, have a positive relationship with your boss, you know, get to know, understand their career aspirations. And I love that asking yourself and asking them, are you a helper or a hurter, but that leads us into self-awareness which your second way is that no one knows you better than you do. Why is that an important piece in career development? There’s a lot of ways I think people get that wrong, even though they’re the ones that know themselves the best.

Ed Evarts:

Well, lots of people I’ve worked with. And again, these stories are based on client experiences. And many of the people that I work with never took time throughout their career. Again, due to the pace and the effort on goals and projects and meetings and initiatives to reflect back on themselves and know why do I feel the way that I feel? Or why am I experiencing what I’m experiencing? As a leadership coach my number one goal is to help people build their self-awareness so they can self-manage more effectively. That doesn’t mean it’s all strengths. It doesn’t mean it’s all weaknesses. All of us have strengths. All of us have areas of opportunity. I need to know them so that I can manage myself a little bit more effectively. I’m sure we have all worked for people who have low self-awareness and are like the proverbial bull in the China shop who just operate in a way that we’re like, how did this person ever get this job?

Ed Evarts:

I mean, you know, they are so bad at something or the way they handle themselves or how they interact with others. And that’s because their self-awareness is low. And they don’t either care or are interested in building their self-awareness. And so chapter two is really to remind folks that, you know, once or twice a year, you should find even a half hour and a whiteboard to sit back and say, how am I doing? What’s important to me? Am I where I think I should be? And if not, and if there’s gaps in those answers, what can I do next in order to close those gaps? And so nobody knows you better than you do. Jenn. Nobody knows your truths. Nobody knows your lies. Nobody knows little things that you’ve done, that you haven’t ever told anyone about, better than a spouse, better than a parent. Nobody knows you better than you. And is the strongest asset you should use in order to make great progress. If you’re not honest with yourself and doing what you believe you should be doing, you’re never going to get there.

Jenn DeWall:

You know this, and you’ve answered this in this chapter. And I want to talk about it because we also asked this at Crestcom in our emotional intelligence course, but what is the difference, right? Are self-awareness and self-management the same thing? And that’s, you know, getting people to really think about that question. Cause I think a lot of people think they’re the same. Yeah. You’re shaking your head. No, we know it’s no. Tell me more.

Ed Evarts:

Well, self-awareness is your ability to understand how others experience you self-management is doing something about it. Right? So I might know how people experience me, but I don’t care. And so I don’t do anything about it.

We have all had great bosses, and I’ve had bosses. So I’m like, how did this person ever get to this role? But if a boss, for example, is somebody who takes over every meeting. And even if there is an agenda, and even if there are important things to talk about, they just take over and talk, and they know they do this. That’s self-awareness; self-awareness isn’t just good things. It could be challenging things as well. Self-Management is somebody who says, wow, I understand I do this. Now I’m going to do something different in order to have a positive influence. So I see them as significantly different. Self-awareness is your understanding of how others experience you. Self-Management our actions and behaviors to modify it, to have a better experience.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Thank you for answering that because you absolutely can have great self-awareness and not do anything about it. And you share a story, and I definitely want to get to that story. And it just makes me think of a personal experience for me. I have always been described as passionate, right? I’ve always been described as passionate. You are so passionate. And I had just the sweetest, I think of this boss, Dave Meyercord bless his heart. He was my boss in my second position of my career post-college. After I got my first promotion and I just remember him sitting me down and saying, Jenn, and this is all related to emotional intelligence, which I was this 20 something. I had no idea about this. And he was just like, Jenn, you weren’t so passionate. And I’m so happy that you are passionate. We are so grateful to have that, but you also need to tone down your passion. Because what passion really looked like, if you’re talking about, am I a helper or hurter, passion then was that I would get so frustrated if things weren’t maybe done my way or the right way is how I perceived it.

Or just thinking about all the different things I would be, you know, integrity was a huge value. So when someone would do something wrong, like that would be massive, like triggers for me. I honestly didn’t have a clue about emotional intelligence. And you know, it goes back to the first piece of, I had all these positive relationships with my boss. I had gotten all this feedback. I’d always gotten it right. I knew I was so passionate, but that’s not, you know, that’s your strength, but that’s also your weakness. And going back to having a positive relationship, I feel like that passion because I was aware of it, but I didn’t manage or do anything to really take that feedback into consideration actually caused me to be a hurter and not have a positive relationship with not my direct boss, but my boss above. And you talked about an example. I think her name was Sarah in the book, how she knew this whole time, all of the feedback, but yet she didn’t do anything about it. Or you tell me in your experience, how do you see this play out?

Ed Evarts:

I see it play out all the time. And I typically ask clients when we get feedback. And in many of my client engagements, we do a 360 where we go out and ask people confidentially and anonymously. What do you think of, and how do you experience working with Jenn? And please tell me candidly, right? Jenn even does the invite to let people know that this isn’t some kind of test being done, but she is curious to know. And so, she collects the feedback. And when there is feedback, that’s constructive. Like Jenn’s very passionate, but sometimes it takes over, and it would be good if she managed it. I say, is that news, is that new for you? Or is that something you’ve heard? Oh, I’ve always heard that.

Jenn DeWall:

We always know!

Ed Evarts:

No again, nobody knows you better than you. So you do know in most, although you might deny it or suppress it behaviors or activities that you’ve gotten little pieces of feedback, even going back to junior high and grade school and high school. A lot of the behaviors we demonstrated have been consistently with us. So, you know, we do know these things, but we’re not motivated or we don’t have the incentive to modify it. So we just keep going because that’s who we are. And that’s what we do with our career as well until somebody like your boss sits down and says, Hey, here’s your strength. But if it’s not managed, it becomes a weakness, right? So I need you to manage your passion so we can ensure that you are a helper, not a hurter. I just want to pick up Jenn. You also mentioned a key word that has to do with self-awareness, which is triggers.

And we all have triggers and these are words or phrases of behaviors that set us off and self-awareness apply is somebody who realizes a trigger has happened. And rather than reacting, without thinking, and then coming back later and apologizing. Self-managing. So that’s a great example of the difference between self-awareness and self-management. Self-awareness is recognizing that you have a trigger and it might be a word. It might be a phrase. It might be a behavior self-management is how you handle it when it happens. So you’re not constantly reacting. And then sending an email later that afternoon, apologizing to everybody cause you so overly reacted and so forth and so on. So you know, very, very important differences between self-awareness and self-management,

Use Self-Awareness to Drive Your Career in a New Direction

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, I laugh, I’m just laughing and giggling through this, because when you said, like, we can typically know it earlier, I think of in high school, I was a pretty driven student. I really needed to get scholarships because I needed to fund college. So I, you know, signed up, volunteered, participated in numerous school activities. Right. I mean, it’s kind of embarrassing how big my high school bio is because you know, none of that really matters today. I mean, not to say it doesn’t matter. It does to some extent, but it’s just funny because I laugh because I’m like, why was I like that? And I think of one piece of feedback I got from a friend of mine when I was younger and he’s like, Jenn and how would I describe you in college? Or excuse me, in high school, you were overzealous.

And if I think about passion and overzealous, I always had drive. That feedback was always there. I just wasn’t willing to admit it. And so I’m just giggling for that because a lot of you if you even think here’s your self-reflection for the day, think about a common theme in the feedback that you’ve received. If you haven’t taken time to really, you know, take that half hour to ask yourself those questions, at least think about what are the similarities and the common themes. But one thing I also want to talk about because the big change for me in terms of knowing yourself, right? No one knows you better than you do is when I was in this first career, right where I was in a buying track. I loved it. I loved what I did, but yet I just didn’t fit in, in that culture.

I don’t know if I’m even a misfit, right? A corporate misfit. I’m not sure if I fit there fully, but when I thought about passion as being something that was always, maybe a negative attribute. Now, when I think about passion, right? It’s actually a strength. It’s a strength because I can use that in podcasting. I can use that in speaking. I can use that in coaching. And so even thinking to people that sometimes when you hear all this feedback, maybe you’re in the wrong environment? Maybe you are in the wrong place where you just cannot let it, you know, it can’t necessarily show you in a positive light. And so that self-reflection. Are you actually in the right place? Any takes on that.

Ed Evarts:

Well, I, you know, I’m not bad enough for it to pick up on that story, right? There are, there are famous comedians who were not always a comedian. They were business professionals and they just constantly heard from people. You know, you are so funny. And then they did open mic night at a local restaurant just to give it a shot. I have a good friend who did an open mic night at a restaurant, you know, not locally, but in this state that we’re in. But you know, it’s, it’s finding that point in time where you finally decide you want to drive your career and I could stay as a business professional and be told that I’m really funny, or is there something I could be doing that makes me happier and satisfies me greater that I could switch. And, you know, I use that attorney to bed and breakfast owner jokingly, but those are real stories, right?

I mean, I would almost promise you that most bed and breakfast owners were not always bed and breakfast owners. I would guarantee you that used to be in some other type of corporate role. Now, some people might say this is moving from one chapter to another, that I love my job as an attorney, but felt that I wasn’t doing anything new. So I wanted to do something different. I fully recognize that and get that as well. But you know, it’s knowing yourself, and that’s what chapter two is about. No one knows you as better than you do. And if you have certain strengths that you can utilize and capitalize on, are you, and if you’re not, it might be a good time to think about it a little bit because there might be something else you could be doing that utilizes those strengths more effectively.

The Bell Curve of Great Ideas

Jenn DeWall:

I gosh. Okay. I, oh my gosh. I’m just loving this conversation at, and I know we don’t have time to go through all nine ways, even though that’s why everyone’s going to have to get the book. But I do want to talk about bell curves rock, because in my experience, I don’t know, did you, can you guess what I’m going to probably say, like, I hate bell curves. Tell me why you love them. Why do they rock?

Ed Evarts:

Well, first of all, my wife is a former math teacher and she says, I use the term bell curves incorrectly, but I think it’s just a good visual because you know, too often what happens in organizations because we are so focused on success, that we focus on the right side of the bell curve, which is the positive side. You know, the number of people who are doing things really, really well. And we don’t spend enough time on what are the risks of what I’m suggesting, even if I love the idea, what are the risks of what I’m suggesting, what could go wrong? You know, what might somebody say or ask negatively about what I’m suggesting? So I don’t go in like a cheerleader thinking that what I’ve got is the greatest idea ever, only to have someone raise their hand and ask something that is de-energizing to the idea.

So it’s important to recognize that all ideas and all behaviors are kind of on a bell curve, and you should spend as much time on what could go wrong and what tough questions might you get? What are some of the more risky or behavioral-type questions that might influence it? And what is the good stuff? You certainly want to spend time on the good stuff as well. And here’s why, if you don’t do that when you get the tough questions, you won’t have good answers, and it might deflate the impact you’re attempting to have or delay it and say, well, look, I don’t have those answers. Give me a couple of weeks. Let me figure it out. Now there’s a couple of weeks added. And a couple of weeks turns into a couple of months, et cetera. If you think about it in advance and get an accountability partner to say, okay, what’s wrong with this idea? What don’t you like? What tough questions can get asked. And at that meeting be prepared. And if somebody says, well, you know, this sounds like it’s going to conflict with our budget or what else? And I’ve got those answers. It could get approved that day and we’re moving, right? So it’s just thinking about the whole bell curve and the pluses and minuses. So you’re more prepared to move forward effectively.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So what I’m about to say, like driving your career, when I think about, you know, understanding the bell curve, I think about that as suspending your own ego. Not saying that I need to be right. Not saying that I need to be perfect or have the best answer, but saying there’s a possibility that, you know, something else could happen. It’s actually not about me. It’s for the benefit of the team or for the organization, but yet we are still in our career, I think, you know, that’s the misstep in terms of driving your career, is that fundamental desire to be right or desire to push your idea through. Which newsflash—   may well alienate you from other people in your organization. They may not like working with you if they feel that you’re a bulldozer. What have you seen in terms of behaviors and leaders in your experience?

Ed Evarts:

Well, I think what you just described is accurate that I get so caught on the benefits of my idea and even seduced by the benefits of my I’m not spending any time thinking about the risks or the issues or the challenges that might exist in it. And so I go in thinking about, oh, I’ve got this great idea, and it’s going to wow you all, and here I go, and all I get hit with are negative or critical questions or reactions. And I’m stuck because I didn’t spend any time thinking about all of those. So I think it’s potentially part ego. I think it’s a potentially part seduction with the great idea. We all love being right. You know, when we grew up in junior high and high school and college, we were expected to always have the answer, right? The teacher would say, you know, what country is this or who is the 12th president?

And they expected every hand to go up because we were expected to have all the answers. And so this is kind of how we’ve been raised. And so now, when we present ideas, institute solutions at organizations, we want to present the good stuff and focus on that. And the experiences that I’ve had with clients is that if they had spent more time, not more time, but additional time on the issues or challenges that their strategy might’ve presented and the positive answers that they can provide to address it, the likelihood of the answer getting accepted would have been more effective.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I, I just, I love what you just shared because it just makes me think of what would happen if we just detached and let things go, right. How much happier would we be in our careers? How much happier would we be if we didn’t put that pressure on ourselves to have all of the answers and just said, Hey, here’s one consideration open to others. I am not, you know, because together we rise, right? You need other people to be the bastard to find the best solution or outcome. But how much more, I guess sanity- I would just say- and he would exist at work if I could just relieve that pressure and stress to feel like I have to know and be everything to everyone or have the right answer. I feel like you can see everyone.

Ed Evarts:

Yeah. Well, I think it’s also its part vulnerability, right? That you don’t think that you’ve got the right answer and there are no other answers out there. So it’s part recognizing that there could be modifications to your idea that are welcome. It’s part, empathy. You don’t want to come in as a cold business person, but recognizing the impact that your idea may have on others. That’s always a critical area that people don’t think you’ve thought through the impact that something is going to have on others and the potentially negative impact that might have on people. So I think there’s a number of behaviors you want to demonstrate to show that you’ve thought through the idea, both the positives and the critical to ensure that the idea that you have amongst multiple ideas is the best one.

Pausing is Powerful

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s dive into one more way because you’ve got nine. We don’t have time for all of them. That’s why you’re going to have to get the book. Pausing is powerful. What does that mean? Because you know what, we’re in this fast-paced environment, and we’re supposed to move and do everything as fast as possible. Are you telling me to slow down? Pausing is powerful.

Ed Evarts:

Right? Well, that’s part of the pressure in respect to pausing is the culture is so fast-paced that we think pausing is going to allow our competitors to get ahead of us. And that the only way to make progress is to go, go, go, go, go, and never pause. And you know, I give an example in the book, and some of us might remember the 2017 Oscars where and I’ll just tell the story quickly, Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway, who was celebrating the 50th anniversary of Bonnie and Clyde, that they both starred in, we’re giving out the best picture. And they were given the wrong envelope. And all Warren Beatty had to do was say, Hey, I think I’ve been given the wrong envelope. Can I get the right envelope that wouldn’t have been earth-shattering? Right. They would have said, oh yes, Mr. Beatty, we apologize. But that’s not what he did. What he did was he looked at it. It didn’t make sense. People thought he was melodramatically dramatic.

Jenn DeWall:

Wait, tell me, because I don’t even know this story. What was in the envelope?

Ed Evarts:

It was the best actress. So he was so it said Emma Stone for LA LA Land. So he’s looking at it and he, and this is live TV and he’s pausing and people think he’s being melodramatic. And so he hands it to Faye Dunaway and she opens it and says, LA LA land won best picture, which is not at all what the card said. So the LA LA Land people come on stage and they’re celebrating. And as they’re talking, you could see this head in the crowd going around. And it was a you know one of the employees and they then grabbed the person who was speaking, whispered something into his ear and he handled it beautifully of all the people up there. The one person who handled it beautifully was the producer of La La Land, who said, Hey, I’ve got to pause right now. There’s been an error. We did not win best picture. The best picture is Moonlight. And the Moonlight people are like, nah, you’re just kidding. And he’s like, no, he goes, no, I’m serious. They were given the wrong envelope. So Warren Beatty had to apologize. Jimmy Kimmel had to apologize. You know, every, it was all this time taken out. If Warren Beatty had just paused when he got the wrong envelope at the beginning and said, Hey, I think I’ve been given the wrong envelope. None of this would have happened.

Pausing can Actually Speed Things Up

Ed Evarts:

So pausing is not about slowing down. It’s not about letting your competitors get ahead of you. It’s about ensuring whatever you’re about to do. You take a little time just to think about it. So if you’re at a meeting and you’re about to kick off a new project, you might say to your team, Hey, we’ve talked about a lot of ideas.

Everybody’s leaving here with deliverables. I want everyone just to think about everything we’ve done today for a couple of days. And on Friday, if you have any concerns, any new ideas, any issues, any things that we should know, let us know because this is important, right? But oftentimes, we don’t do that. And so we leave the meeting, and everybody goes, and then down the road issues happen, which delay the deliverable. So more than one project has been delayed in life because something we didn’t anticipate happened or we didn’t think about something. And so that’s where this behavior plays a big role. That pausing is a great way to move faster versus move slower.

Jenn DeWall:

And I think even the pause could also, you know, it’s related to also looking at your career possibilities, looking at, do you have to keep, and again, this is me and my twenties, and our listeners have heard this probably many times before, but I was a very, Ooh, let’s call it overzealous. Right? Very driven person and wanted to do great things. That when I thought about a pause like that’s what I determined and labeled a lateral move. Well, that’s just a pause. That means I’m not growing. That means I’m not achieving. Why would I do that? That’s a waste of time. And now that I know more, I, you know, it’s hard to try to help people suspend your ego. Lateral moves are one of the best things you can do for yourself to be the best business driver. You get a broader perspective, different points of orientation around the business. It’s not a pause. It’s an opportunity for you to actually develop a different, unique insight that makes you more valuable. But yet, I don’t get the accolades when I do that. They’re like, I don’t, I don’t get to say like I got that promotion, that raise. It’s I got a lateral move. You know that again, ego comes in the way. So embracing the pause, curious how you see that play out.

Ed Evarts:

Well, I think it’s largely due to culture, and we’ve grown up in environments where you had to climb the corporate ladder, and you started out in the mailroom at IBM and you retired 40 years later as the senior vice president of sales at IBM. And you held all these roles in between. That’s no longer how the world is working. Again. These are all very subtle changes. Performance assessment processes are subtle and career development is very subtle. And it’s a very effective tool to move laterally to other areas of the business. And oftentimes presidents will tell you of companies that one of the reasons they’re there is because they spent one, you know, one or two years as the SVP of sales and they spent one or two years as the SVP of operations and they spent one or two years as the SVP of human resources, right. They were being groomed and trained in order to get that higher role. So it’s a fantastic career builder to demonstrate the people that you’ve not just been in a funnel in sales ,to pick that as an example, but you’ve also had some other areas of opportunity, which makes you more valuable. So it’s hard to do. And of course there’s financial impacts and there’s kind of career growth impact, but longterm, it could prove for many people to be a really effective strategy.

How to Get in Touch with Ed

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Embrace the lateral move. And thank you so much for taking time to be on the show today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I wish we had time to talk about all nine ways. How can our how can our listening audience get in touch with you?

Ed Evarts:

Well, first of all, Jenn, I just want to say that your passion today was a strength because it helped me feel more passionate. So I think we had a better conversation because of your passion. So it was not an area of development today. So thank you for demonstrating that. I think folks can find out more about me at my website, which is Excellius.com E X C E double L I U s.com there’s information and stuff about the books and the work that I do there

Jenn DeWall:

At Everett’s. This was great pickup as book, where can you get the book at, from the website, Amazon drive your career nine high impact ways to take responsibility for your own success, because it’s on you. We can’t blame it on anyone else. Where can they pick up this book? It’s a great read and there’s so many great stories.

Ed Evarts:

That’s right. Change that. Start with you. Yeah, it’s available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble.com, on my website. You can order it as

Jenn DeWall:

Well. Great. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Ed Evarts:

Thanks, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you want to connect with, add, get to know more about him, you can go to Excellius.com, or you can head on over to Amazon, and you can purchase his book, Drive Your Career. If you know, a friend that is maybe in the midst of making it for your change. And it’s just not sure what to do, share this episode with them. And if you enjoyed this, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. And don’t forget, if you’re in the midst of even thinking about my team needs this or my team needs leadership development, reach out to Crestcom.com. We would love to come to your organization for a two-hour leadership skills-building workshop. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

 

The post How to Drive Your Career with Leadership Coach and Author, Ed Evarts appeared first on Crestcom International.

Become a Better Storyteller with Chief Story Enabler, Keith Bailey

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall here, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, we are going to be sharing with you tips to tell better stories. I sat down with Keith Bailey, who has a passion for it was had a passion for public speaking since experiencing a seminal moment in the fourth grade. From the hospitality industry to global corporate sales, you learn the power of storytelling for profit, influence, and of course, fun! Sixteen years as a personal and corporate coach, Keith is motivated by the success of others in his quest to help you live a life well-spoken, knowing that speakers are created and not born. Keith started Articulated Intelligence to help prevent unintentional audience abuse through a proprietary gamified storytelling technique called “With One Word”. I hope you enjoy our conversation. You’re going to be hearing us play Lifetime One-Word, and I hope that you walk away with tips to tell better stories.

Meet Keith Bailey, Chief Story Enabler

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It is Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am sitting down with chief storyteller, enabler, Chief Story Enabler, Mr. Keith Bailey, Keith. Welcome. Oh, wait, why? Wait, what, why are you coming on live with this video? Why do you have a bag over your head right now? Keith? What do you mean? Like, why do you have a bag?

Keith Bailey:

I learned this. I learned this during the pandemic. This is how you can show up to virtual meetings with your camera off. It’s like showing up to an in-person meeting with a bag over your head. You know, I can do things under here that you can’t see that I’m doing.

Jenn DeWall:

Yup. You can feed yourself. You could probably be sleeping. I mean, with you, Mr. Bailey, we’ve got to start showing up more on our camera. I get that zoom fatigue is a real thing. But think about the reality of it. Would you go to a meeting in a conference room with a bag over your head? Like, what is Mr. Bailey doing right now?

Keith Bailey:

The answer is absolutely not, Jenn. Absolutely not. Yeah. It’s just, it’s just a little goof, to really point a lens, if you will, to the importance of when we show up virtually is to show up and to be there and to be engaged, right? I mean, just, just the fact that you can only see from here up on me, you’re already missing out on so much body language, and then we turn that camera off, and it just, it just really leaves too much up to the imagination. It’s too much for the listener to process. You’re actually better off having a phone call. So if, if you’re not going to have cameras on the resort back to the good old days and just call each other and have a conversation that way,

Jenn DeWall:

I like that. Conference your team in, don’t put everyone. If we don’t want to talk over Zoom, we get it right. Acknowledging the reality of Zoom fatigue, or WebEx fatigue, whatever that might be, that it happens. But that sometimes, cause we’re going to be talking about storytelling today that if you’re trying to influence someone and yet it looks like you’re not engaged, or it’s hard to tell if they’re engaged, which can maybe distract you from getting your message across that, pick up the phone. Yep. It’s a concept.

Keith Bailey:

And you know, not everything has to be Zoom. I think when, when, when all this funding game start with like zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, and we’re learning now that that’s not always the case. Now I’ve had quite a few client conversations that I’ve had that are just by phone. And it’s nice to have that, that differentiation. So if you’re going to be living in this virtual realm, either have a phone call or have the agreeance to where. Hey, you don’t need to show up to this meeting and have your camera on. But if it’s, if it’s a board meeting or if it’s something where you really need to come across, and you need other people, you be able to see your audience, perhaps the social graces on that is, Hey, we all agree that we’ll all have our cameras on. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. I think it’s important, especially for people that may be, let’s think of what, even the people on the team. And I know we’re going to get into storytelling, but maybe people that aren’t even as comfortable talking in public or speaking up in a meeting, that sometimes having your camera off can be a little bit intimidating. It might make them think that they don’t really care what you have to say or that they’re not really paying attention. And so that can even add more pressure when you’re trying to communicate. So Keith, I, you know, I love working with you. I’m so excited to have you here on the show. You are a Chief Story Enabler. What does that mean? How did you come to be? You have your company, Articulated Intelligence. Tell us about yourself and what your organization does.

What is a Chief Story Enabler?

Keith Bailey:

Yeah, yeah. The whole Chief Story Enabler title— it came about because a lot of clients that we work with when we start talking about storytelling, like, oh, I’ve got no great stories to tell, nothing exciting has ever happened to me. And then, once we take them through our proprietary gamified approach of tapping into your bottomless story-well of experiences and memories, the stories that come forth, people were like, oh my God, I do have a story to tell. And the answer is, yeah, if you’ve lived life, you’ve had experiences. The difference between a storyteller and a non-storyteller is the lens through which we look at the experience. So as a non-storyteller, it’s just a benign thing. As a storyteller, we look at that benign thing and that we’re able to shape it and craft it and add a resolution and meaning to it that gives it purpose and relevance. So when the audience, right, and let’s talk about the Shakespearian, all the world’s a stage. So if it’s an audience of one in a networking situation or like yourself, you’ve got a keynote coming up in all places of Wichita, Kansas, how we connect with that audience and how that story lands is, is absolutely critical. And how we tell that story will define whether we’re going to be memorable or not.

Becoming a Better Storyteller

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. You know, storytelling is so important. It’s funny. We have our family in town, my sister-in-law and her husband are visiting us from Spain. And one of the things that happened to come up over a dinner conversation is that she doesn’t feel like she’s a good storyteller, and she just wishes that she could tell better stories. And she started giving examples of different friends. And I know that we’re going to get into this, but a lot of people, you know, can shy away from wanting to even think about a story because they just automatically deem themselves as I can’t tell a story. And I feel like it’s the same thing as I’m not creative or I’m not innovative or innovative. And so, Keith, how did you become interested in storytelling as an art as something that you can help leaders and organizations do better?

Keith Bailey:

The pivotal moment for me was after I left corporate America, and I started down this venture, of helping people really with, with their presentation skills and with their stage skills. What started to come out of this was they would show up with all the content and all the data. They’d have all the facts and all the figures. Well, the thing with that is facts and figures- they fade. So we were always looking for a way to make the data and the content relevant and what it all was boiled down to was a story. What are the stories that help support this? And one day, I was out for a run, you know, very much like Einstein. I was out for his bike ride the day he thought of, of relativity, the theory of relativity. I was out for a run when I had the aha epiphany of like, Hey, well, what if, what if we were to just look for stories?

What if we were just to tap into people’s story-wells of experiences because we can take pretty much any story and be able to find meaning to it. It’s one of the things that we as humans do. We look at our experiences and try to attach meaning to them. And from that, our gamified approach called “With One Word” was, was created. And what we do with this is we take trigger words, and then through a guided visualization, we show you how to start looking back into your experiences. We’ll look at a very specific experience and then have you share that experience. And then we take, and we mold it, and we shape it, we attach meaning to it. That was really the aha moment for me was working with business professionals. But with regard to stories, stories are everywhere I have from, from the moment we’re born, the interactions we have and the stories that our parents tell us growing up to the fables, to the movies, to all these things that happen in our lives are always delivered to us in the form of the story. So when did I first become aware of stories? Gosh, probably when I, when I look back over my life and my childhood, I grew up in Holland, and Holland is a very enchanted place of canals and bricks and moss and all the kubouters and all the things that happen. Fairytales. That was probably my first interaction with stories as a kid.

Are You Guilty of Unintentional Audience Abuse?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And it’s such a, you know, I love that. It’s talking about how facts and figures fade, you know, the one thing that always stands out because you and I know each other outside of this is, and it will always stick with me if you want to know one of the lines or I would say the missions of Keith Bailey- it’s to prevent, and this is your phrase, but I love it, unintentional audience abuse. Tell me what that is because I think it’s an important thing for us to remember as we go out to think about who we’re trying to influence. What we’re communicating is that we ultimately want to prevent unintentional audience abuse. Tell us what that is from your own words. I just love that expression. And I think it’s really helpful. We want to obviously make a great experience where people, you know, hear what we’re trying to say. They connect, so on and so forth, but what does unintended audience abuse really mean?

Keith Bailey:

So the unintentional side of it is the speaker. The presenter doesn’t mean to do it. They’re not doing it with malice. It’s unintentional. And we have all been the recipients of it and guilty party. I have abused my audience. And the way audience abuse comes about is when you’re just espousing facts and figures and data your in your, on your so. And you’re never getting to the point where the most grievous ones that I’ve experienced was a presenter who, when it was their turn to speak, the PowerPoint slide came on with this beautiful image. And then the lights went dark. And suddenly I felt her sitting down next to me, and then it went to the next slide was all this information. And she started to read from the front row with her back to the audience, her entire presentation. The reason- I talked to her afterward, I’m like, why, why would you do that? She’s like, well, they need to know these things. And this is the only way that I know I can ensure that they get all the information. That makes total sense while this approach is, is right for the betterment of the audience.

What we know is that that’s not how you connect with your audience. That’s not how you win them over because they don’t remember what you say. They remember how you made them feel. And I don’t remember who imparted this statistic upon me, but it’s just stuck with me because it’s just a good litmus to move forward with. When you get done speaking, your audience will forget 50% of what you said within about the first 30 minutes. If you’re a good speaker, they’ll remember 5% of what you said one week later.

Jenn DeWall:

5%!?

Keith Bailey:

5%. That’s if you’re a good speaker. And we’ve all seen those incredible speakers, but try to go back and remember those incredible speakers. How much of a do you remember what they said? You remember how they made you feel. You remember perhaps some of the messages that they carried forth. You might even remember a story that they shared. So when we look at how we communicate, what we teach is moving away from a sense of presenting and starting to build more outward. We call facilitation, and facilitation has multiple parts to it. It has your content and your data. You need to get that part across. It has stories that you can tell that relate to your content and your data. This next part is incredibly pivotal. It has audience participation. When the audience participates in the actual experience, now they have a stake in the outcome, and the audience will do whatever they can to make sure that the outcome is a favorable one.

So now you’ve got their buy-in to it, and then you need to have the audio and the visual piece to come into it. When you bring those things into play, and you’re constantly moving between them and having this facilitation, you have a greater chance of avoiding unintentional audience abuse. Because here’s the thing, Jenn, with an audience, and if there’s one thing you walk away with today, and the next time you’re standing before an audience, and you have to present, just know this, the audience wants only one thing. They want you to succeed. They want you to be successful. They want you to win. They are your biggest champion. They are rooting for you the entire time. And the reason they do that is that they can see themselves standing where you’re standing, and it scares the hell out of them. So know that your audience is very empathetic to your mission and to your plight, into what you’re there to do.

And all they want you to do is win. So all you need to do is give them what they want. And facilitation, in my experience, is one of the best ways to deliver that level of engagement because you’re also speaking to all the different ways that people learn and retain information. And the kinesthetic part of it is critical. So knowing that they’ll all going to take away 5% and each audience member is going to remember a different 5%, what 5% are they going to remember? This is why content stories, audience participation, audio, and visuals all play into that complete mix of that facilitation. Yeah.

Networking and the Storyteller

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And so important. I love that you give, I think even just for those that are listening, that I might be maybe a little reluctant to want to get into storytelling, or maybe you’re just nervous about public speaking because that absolutely happens. I really liked the point that you said that your audience wants you to succeed. So as a starting point, if any of you are nervous and trust, they want you to succeed because they obviously also want a return on their time investment. They want to make sure that they’re, you know, getting something out of it. They want it to be fun. They do want you to succeed. So you started an organization called Articulated Intelligence. Can you tell us a little bit about what Articulated Intelligence does?

Keith Bailey:

At Articulated Intelligence, our focus is to help business professionals live a life well-spoken. And I mentioned earlier that we believe that all the world is a stage. So we’ve created modules and training platforms that work with business professionals on those different stages. One of them that’s a really popular one for us right now is the networking stage. We’ve all been told, go out a network, build your network. It’s incredibly important. You need to network. Yet no one has ever taught us how to network, right? What is it showing up, going to the bar, getting loaded, and asking everybody what is it that they do? And just having, you know, superficial connection. No, that is not networking. RIght, that’s not a meaningful conversation.

So what we teach is we teach you how to maximize your R-O-N, your return on networking. And we build out a strategic plan. That’s really specific to the individual. You get to build out your own plan of how it is that you’re going to prepare for this networking event. What are the permissions you’re going to give yourself? Right? I, my goal is to have three meaningful conversations, and then I can leave if I so choose. We never really go about doing that. Like we’ve like the way to be here for a period of time. And I really don’t know what I’m going to accomplish. So to have the strategic part of it is great. The other thing that we teach you is through actually this methodology called “With One Word” is how to become a really good listener too. When people hit trigger words, that trigger memories for you. Because when you’re speaking, even during this podcast right now, our audience, we know that you have left this room and come back again.

Perhaps I mentioned something about Europe that made you think of something, your travels through Europe. Perhaps I mentioned something about the PowerPoint presentation, and you, too, had that experience. So in a networking event, we have these little jumping-off points. All you need to do is listen, have a jumping-off point, keep it in the back of your mind as the person is speaking. And then, once they’re done speaking, you can do one of many things. You can say, oh my God, I’m so there with you. I, too, had this experience one time, and then you bring the focus back to them. But I’m really interested in more about this point. You tell me about that. That is a strategic thing that you can do to have an engaging conversation with anyone. So networking is, is a really big platform for us. Another area that we work on is keynote presentations. But one of the big ones is the conversations you’re having with your customers. Because a huge thing that we focus on is teaching you how to put people before profession. I had a boss many, many years ago when I sold cycling apparel, spandex, everything.

And, and he, he told me, he said, he said, Keith people don’t buy from companies. They buy from other people. So don’t, don’t try to bring the company first, build the personal relationship. And then, over time, you’ll build that relationship. They’ll be able to come on board. And what I learned from that is the best relationships that I had and the best clients that I had. It took me time to build that relationship—the ones where I didn’t have that are the people who show up. Like, I want your product. I love your product. I just want to buy your product. It was oftentimes just a one and done, but if I had the relationship that was returned business, and we know from a business standpoint, it’s better to hold on to the business that you already have than to spend the money, to go and find new business

Jenn DeWall:

And see if there are already many ways that anyone can leverage the party or the gift of storytelling and communication. I liked that you talked about your ROI and the return on networking but then also using it as a connecting point with your customer. So why, why do we need to, so let’s go into it. Like, here’s why you need to listen to what we’re going to talk about today. Why do we need to be better storytellers?

Keith Bailey:

It’s in our DNA, right? It’s in our chemical makeup. We as, as a species, that’s how we process things. For the majority of the population of fine, I’m gonna apply the 80-20 rule. I know that’s not the correct statistic, but it’s just the ease of numbers. 80% of people process information best when there’s a story attached to it. 20% of the population are the engineers and the ones that are the very front brain and the neocortex, or the, just give me the data, give me the data, give me the data. But the story is still key because when we tell a story, there’s a specific part of the brain that we’re speaking from and to. And this is where science and voodoo come together, and it’s absolutely incredible. When we tell a story, we’re speaking from an area of the brain called the limbic mind, also called the mind’s eye.

It’s where all of our experiences and all of our memories, and all of our feelings are stored. There are no words here. It was just emotional feelings. When we’re telling a story from that, we’re actually reliving that moment. When you tell the story, and this is a critical component to telling good stories is when we tell the story in real-time, as opposed to back in such and such a year, I was doing this, saying the year is 2011 and cautiously, I’m crossing the street. We’ve built out the scene. The audience is right there with us. We’re moving forward through this moment in time, right along with us. And as we relive this experience, the listener is reliving the experience right along with us. And when we arrive at our conclusion, they arrive at their conclusion at the same time. So if you want to be persuasive, storytelling is one of the most powerful tools that you can use.

In fact, the people who’ve perfected this are known as con men. They’re awesome at it, which is, which is why storytelling has a little bit of a bad reputation, a little bit of a dark side, but con men- or con people- let’s be PC, or we’re the best at this because they will just get you wrapped up in the story and believing it. And then you’re making an emotional purchase, which is how we’d make most of our purchases is on an emotional level. So when we’re telling the story in real-time, the listener is listening. We’re speaking from our limbic mind, speaking to somebody’s limbic mind, and we are actually imprinting our ideas and our feelings and our thoughts into their mind. And then, when you make the jump from the limbic mind to the rational mind, the neo-cortex that elasticity comes around and makes the two connect.

The 80-20 Rule

Keith Bailey:

So now we’ve got the 80-20 rule, right? You’ve got people that are story-bound. They’ll think of the story and then think of the facts. And you get people who are fact-bound. They’ll think of the facts and relate the story on its own. You’re all going to be speaking to a small slice of your audience. And even then, what’s missing is the why. All right, the story is your why, right? We’ve all had a boss come out to us, and he’s like, Hey, I really need you. I, I washed dishes for a long time. Yeah. You, those pots aren’t clean. You need to scrub those down a little bit further. I’m like, Nah, I put them back on the line again. And then he comes back to me. He’s like, you know, when I was in your position, I was scrubbing pots and pans. And one time, I didn’t get, I didn’t get it completely clean. And there were bacteria that built up inside of it. And as a result of that, we ended up getting a foodborne illness in a restaurant that I was working at. That’s why I need you to clean the pots and pans to where they are clinically and hermetically clean. Oh! Oh, that’s why I need to do this. Okay. I’m more likely to clean the next pot and the pan to a higher degree than just being told what to do. So your story is, why do you do what you do? And if you can lead with that, right? I know we’re jumping around a little bit here. This is the joy of talking to someone with ADHD. The joy of this is like in a networking environment. When were common questions you ask or get asked is what, Jenn?

Jenn DeWall:

What do you do?

Keith Bailey:

What do you do? I’m in finance. I’m a doctor. I’m a lawyer. I’m a dentist. There’s the. I’m a plumber. There are so many of those. They’re just going to lump you in. What’s your differentiator. You’ve, you’ve missed that opportunity. So as opposed to leading, with what you do, you can lead with a belief statement, which for mine, you’ve heard Jenn say when I’m in a networking situation. And somebody says, so, Keith, what do you do? I start off with. I believe that unintentional audience abuse is preventable. And they get to people just to kind of like, cause they’re not expecting it. I’m leading with a why statement. I’m leading why it is that I do what I do. I want to prevent this thing that you’ve never heard of. Right. And then what that allows me to do from there is, is to parlay it into a story like, well, what, what does that mean? How do you do that? When did you first figure this out? All these things have additional stories to go along with them, and you have a chance to be engaging.

Avoiding Unintentional Audience Abuse

Jenn DeWall:

So what’s funny, Keith is I was doing a different, I think I was doing a podcast interview, and I quoted you, right? Like I, that Keith Bailey always has this expression, you know, that you prevent unintentional audience abuse. And this person had to write it down because it, I feel like that’s such a captivating, relatable statement that so many people are like, yeah. Oh my gosh, please, could you please do that for either my team meetings or do that for the next organizational event? I think it’s so relatable. And I like that. Yeah. It does break away from the traditional. This is what I do. This is how I do it. I don’t even like answering those questions anymore because I feel like it’s so no, one’s really listening. Right. We’re just sitting there. Cause it’s the same thing. But then you see a statement like I prevent unintentional audience abuse, and yeah. It’s absolutely like, wait, excuse me, tell me more. So yes, you’re quoted. I quote you now! Where do people get it wrong? Where do people get started telling wrong? Are you, and where, what is really the accidental audience abuse look like, or does unintentional audience abuse look like?

Keith Bailey:

In a story. Right? And in a story specifically where, where does that unintentional part happen? A good story is a short story, right? An anecdotal story. What tends to happen is people, they, they start telling it like they, I, I feel like I to go back to the beginning of time when the earth was still cooling to get people to really understand my position and where the story comes from. They don’t. What you want to do is you want to start the story as close to that moment in time where something happens. Right? If you think about the story about the presenter, right? I’m sitting in the theater, the lights go down, and she sits down next to me. The action is starting. I don’t have to give you anything. You know the viewpoint from the dove’s perspective. I just need to land it at the moment. So people who do that, someone who never gets to the point, I, the story goes on and on, and your audience is like, why are they still talking about that? What are they even talking about it?

Jenn DeWall:

That’s when people start to shut off their zoom cameras,

Keith Bailey:

Right? Like, oh, look at this pretty thing that tells me great stories. I look at social media, and social media is all about telling short stories, whether it’s in pictures, right? A picture’s worth a thousand words. In that, it’s a short story, and the Instagram post and the TikTok posts and all those that do really well tell a really good, specific, concise, and memorable story. So if your story doesn’t have one of those or all three of those elements in it, it’s likely not a good story.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I, you know, I like that. You’ve mentioned here’s your first start. Think of the story, but only start the story at the point of the action, because yes, that’s when it does border on it becoming too long, or I think then someone ends up, you know, describing, starting the story and then they describe everything up to it. And then they start with, well, a long story short, and then they get into the story of what actually matters.

The Long Story Short Storyteller

Keith Bailey:

When somebody says long story short you’re in for a long, long story. We have a great friend of ours, and everybody has tells, which is why I like playing poker. And his tell was when John would take a knee, and you’re done, that’s it. He’s going to be down there for a while, telling you the longest story that you’ve ever heard. And all you can pray for is that his knees start to hurt. So he stands up, but his knees aren’t going to hurt because John’s a plumber, and he’s comfortable in that position.

Jenn DeWall:

So yeah, people are too long with it. Maybe even what about the information that they provide. So if they tell a story that’s too long, but what about in terms of how we’re crafting the story? Where do we get it wrong?

Keith Bailey:

Trying to get too many points across. And that’s one of the things that also led me down this path to where I am now is when I started working with business professionals on their presentations. They’re like, all right, I got 10 minutes, and I need to get these six points across there. Isn’t a story in the world or an audience of the world’s gonna be able to retain all of that. Right? It means— pick what is, what is the this is where the one word came from is on these presentations. I would ask them. We need to boil this thing down to one word. What’s the one word that really encapsulates and embodies the message you’re trying to deliver. So with what it is that you’re telling, if your story has like six different meanings, that’s okay. Pick the meaning that is correct for the audience. Because what you’re delivering to lawyers is different for the meaning that what you’re going to be delivering to civil engineers or what you’re gonna be delivering to college students, right? The ones that you’re going to be chatting with. So be aware of your audience and what their needs are and tailor your stories, meaning to fit that audience because nothing is worse when you’re sitting there. Another form of unintentional audience abuse is when the story is told, and it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Jenn DeWall:

And then I found $5. That’s what comes to mind is when people add expressions like that to try and make your story more interesting or have more excitement to it, for those that might be unfamiliar. That’s just a, maybe a sarcastic phrase that people will attach if someone is telling a story that doesn’t have maybe a point, and then they’ll try to make it interesting by making a joking comment like, and then you found $20, which adds that excitement. But yeah, we all know it’s so interesting. We all know what a bad story looks like because we feel it, right? Like that’s when you feel it where you’re either maybe disconnecting, or you’re just kind of confused as to why they’re telling that. And I know we want to, we’re going to dive into now tips to tell stories, but are better stories. But before we get into that, the one thing do want to talk about is the one-word concept that articulated intelligence did come up in share.

How Storytellers Find Their Story

Jenn DeWall:

So some of you might know, I know the director of the Denver chapter of the national speaker’s academy, and we brought in Articulated Intelligence to help our speakers with their storytelling. And I want to bring up the one word because there’s a lot of people that initially, even though they’re professional speakers, were initially like, how do I find my stories? What do I share? And the one-word concept that you and your team had developed was one of the most impactful takeaways. I think for the participants that went through academy because it made storytelling easy and it was a formula. That, and so I, I just want to give you some props for those that might be thinking that storytelling is still hard, or where do you even start that you did laid out a really great framework for how you can do that and how you’ve been, recall your own stories, just thinking and using that one word. I’m not sure what we can share on the podcast because I don’t want to take away from any proprietary information, but I just

Keith Bailey:

I have to share this. Because it’s, it’s, it’s such a fundamental tool. And if you, if you, if you embrace this. For us, it is foundational, right? One word is a foundational tool. I’m happy to share it with you because of so much of the work that we do. We come back to this foundational tool. And it’s one that allows you to tap into that bottomless story-well and a lot of the work that we do after this that I, I’m not going to share on this podcast. One, we don’t have enough time for it, but if you just embrace this tool for the next time you have to present, you’re going to find relevant stories because of what happens as well. And this is, I think this is a really important tip is that the first story that you think of may not be the right story for your audience, right?

So to be able to go back to the well again and what tends to happen sometimes with us, it’s like we stress out, and I can’t think of anything good, which is why the tenant that we preach is, first thought the best thought. It’s the way that Allen Ginsberg, the poet, explains how he came up with this poetry is like, I would just open my mind, and the first thing that popped in my head, I would write it down. And he would just go through his exercise that way. Now, granted afterward, he would go back, and he’d clean it up, and he tightened it up like it wasn’t the first draft that he would publish, but this idea first thought best thought is liberating and freeing. So when you’re sitting down in a creative state, adopt this whole first thought best thought because if you disregard the first thing that pops into your head, you’re like, Nah, I can cope with something better. It creates stress for the brain. And when stress happens in the brain, that part of the brain shuts down. It goes to fight or flight.

First Thought, Best Thought, Last Thought, Worst Thought

Jenn DeWall:

So what’s an example of like a first thought, best thought, like how, what would that look like for someone that might be like, I don’t know, what’s the first thought I have a lot of thoughts. Like, how do you just decide? Is it starting? Who’s your audience, and what is the first thought you have?

Keith Bailey:

Not even, not even, not, not at first, at first, no. In the creative process. This is, this is long before I sit down with the audience. I just want to be able to just pull some things out of my head. I just want to just come up with some stories and come up with some ideas. I’m not initially audience-centric. That is something as I’m moving further along. I have this collection of stories. Now I have now I don’t know who my audience is. I’m going to start shaping that story to bring it closer and have it really fit my audience. But to start in the very beginning with an audience in mind, because as a speaker and a presenter, we’re going to be speaking to different audiences and we can mold those stories. In the first thing that I focused on is let’s, let’s, let’s just go find some stories.

Let’s just go look back and let’s start looking at our experiences in our life, through the lens of a storyteller. That, to me is the most important skill that we can teach. Because once I’ve taught you that skill, you can pretty much take any, any event that’s happened in your life, mold it and shape it and be able to attach a meaning to it because our minds do that automatically. And the way we do that, I’ll change my background here in a second, but I want to give her credit where credit is due because the game that we’re about to play, was not my idea. “With One Word” is my idea. And there’s a, a game that comes after this one that we really focused on our proprietary process. This game came to me or this format came to me as a result of, of this book, which is absolutely brilliant.

Keith Bailey:

If you’re into reading anything, it’s called Storyworthy. It’s by Matthew Dicks, I’m going to send you a couple of links that you can put in the show notes. One of the stories that’s in the book, and I recommend getting the audiobook and because storytellers tell stories. He has on a, I think that’s on oh, he was a “Moth Grand-slammingest Champion Ever.” And it was the Director of The Moth who imparted this knowledge upon him of playing this format. So I want to give credit where credit’s due because I did not create the format I’m about to show you. The whole with one word as a, as a trigger and the guided visualization and all that stuff. That’s, that’s all this, this, this brain housing group here.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay, I’m ready. I’m ready.

Keith Bailey:

You want, you want to play? Do you want to play a quick game?

Jenn DeWall:

I do want to play a quick game. This is the first time playing a game on the podcast. So yeah, I’ll take it!

Keith Bailey:

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, let’s play a game. We’re going to play a game called First, Best, Last and Worst. And the way that this game works is a word is going to appear in this box. Actually, we’re going to give you words. I don’t have a slide that puts the word in there, but we’re going to give you a word. And what I want you to do is the only thing about your first experience with that word, way to think about your best experience with that word, your last experience with that word, and even your worst experience with that word and know this about worst experiences, what is terrible for you, is awesome for the story. Because people love, you know, they love have a good a good, terrible story that has a great ending to it.

Jenn DeWall:

This is one of our ways that we can start to craft better stories.

Keith Bailey:

And, and I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna give you a word. It’s one of our foundational words that we’d like to use because great stories come out of this, but you can put any word into this box and, and, and play this game over and over again, to start tapping into that story-well and pulling those ideas out.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. Okay. I’m ready.

Keith Bailey:

So our word, Jenn DeWall, our word is the word teacher. Now I want you to think of your first teacher that you can think of. Think of a name. If you can, or description, just visualize it. Don’t say anything. Think of your best. Think of your last and think of your worst. Got them all? Okay. The story that you’re going to be sharing with us is going to self select after I save these next words. And as soon as it self-selects, that’s the story you’re going to focus on. Okay. A story is about a moment in time where something happens with one of those teachers. What is a moment in time where something happened between you and that teacher? Do you see it?

Jenn DeWall:

I’ve got two that come to mind. Yeah,

Keith Bailey:

Pick one. Okay. I want you to go back. You can close your eyes if you want to wait. Just put yourself back into that moment. Where are you? Who is there? What is happening leading up to this moment in time? What is the moment in time? And what does it mean to you today?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, I’ve got, I was so reluctant to want to share the story, but I’ve got the story.

Keith Bailey:

That’s all right. That’s and so what we focus on is we focus on, on search, shape. And the critical part you’re about to do is the sharing of the story. If you’re going to become a storyteller, don’t sit down and start writing your story now because you’re becoming an author. Share the story out loud. And a first telling is a beautiful telling, right? Ladies and gentlemen, unscripted, unrehearsed, un—well slightly—prompted, Jenn’s story on “teacher”. The stage is all yours.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So when you gave the word of teacher and you talked about first, best, last and worst, and then with your additional prompts, I was initially going to talk about best. That was initially where I think of Mr. Van Gompel and how I even got to be interested in leadership. But the answer as you gave the prompting questions came down to I’ll leave this individual anonymous, but this was a teacher that I had when I was, I had him through high school and I didn’t necessarily care for him. I felt like this teacher maybe got a little bit too involved in student dramas, if you will. Like, it was just very awkward to have a teacher that was so engaged in maybe some of the happenings between kids.

And I’m going to just release, or I’m going to show you that I was maybe not the greatest kid, but my senior year, right before graduation, I had been good all through high school. I was a big rule follower. And then right before graduation, I decided to throw a party. And so I threw this party and, you know, and mind you, this was right before graduation. I had a few speeches lined up because I was in NHS and I had a few different scholarships that I was given because it was upon graduation, but I threw this party. It was two weekends before graduation. I threw this party and I get back to school on Monday morning and this teacher pulls me into his office and he says, like I heard from Peter that you had a party this weekend. And I was like, I did. And he’s like, do you know that I could take away all your scholarships from you right now? Just because of what you did and my smart response. Right? So this will, I’ll always remember is this teacher would often have students over to drink at his house after graduation.

Jenn DeWall:

And so then my smart response was to him, well, if you want to take away my scholarships, then you’ll probably have to stop serving kids under age, such a bad story, but I always think of it because it was this moment where I realized that like, there was a double standard between maybe how someone was showing up and what they were putting on me because you were maybe disciplining me and I get all the rights. Right. I, you know, there were all these scholarships that I definitely was justified, but on the flip side, you were trying to reprimand me when I know also that you had just had a bunch of people that were my age over in your backyard to do that. And that was so inappropriate. So I don’t even know where that story went. I cannot believe I shared this story of high school, but I always think of it because it really, really made me mad. And I was so good during high school that to be caught out and like, have someone want to pull that away from me right towards the end when they were also doing not okay things! It really got under my skin. I don’t even know if that was a story you were looking for.

Get to the Action to Be a Better Storyteller

Keith Bailey:

That’s a perfect story. That’s a perfect story. Let’s talk, let’s talk about this circus., this conversation is about storytelling right now. We have a raw, fresh example of a first time of, of a telling of a story. And my encouragement is, is after this, you need to tell this story again to whomever you have a house full of people. The stuff you shared with us leading it’s two weeks before high school and, and all that I would I’d get trashcan that I would, I would scrub that away from the story because we want to get as close to the moment in time. Right? So you can start the story off with, we also want to tell the story in real-time. So it’s Monday morning, two weeks before graduation, and I’ve just thrown the party of a lifetime. Mr. Such and such, who has been the bane of my existence, pulls me into his office. And I’m like, oh, what does this guy want? As he’s sitting across from me looking very intimidating, he says, and then you say whatever the words are, right, what’s happening here is we’ve given a moment where it’s in real-time. And now there’s a dialogue that is happening between you and another person. So we filled the stage with another person. That enriches the story, and we get to, as the listener, experience this exchange like we’re sitting in that room. Perhaps you give a little descriptor, right? It’s his office, which I swear is the janitors’ broom closet. It paints a picture of the mind’s eye, and we’re sitting in there, and he’s grilling me on this stuff. And as he’s doing this, I’m thinking to myself, what a hypocrite, what a complete hypocrite, and the words that come out of my mouth to this day, I don’t know where they came from. Because that leaned across the table, and I said this.

And that’s where you deliver it. Right? Because we know that you just had a thought while he’s berating you, and then you deliver your, your story and then you can end it there because that’s, that’s the end of it. And then turn and give your meaning to it. Right? I don’t like the double standards in people, which is why I believe that you need to be who you are and whatever, meaning you attach to it. Or like there’s so many like if you’re gonna present this for your college students, we can find what it means for college. If you’re gonna be delivering this, for business professionals, we can find what it means to business professionals. But it’s a great analogy of a story where you experience someone who was not doing what they were saying.

Storytellers Find Meaning in Any Story

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And I love that because you’re so right. Suppose I think about the audience of even of this podcast and why I would be mortified that I share that story. But I’m just even thinking about if I use this for leaders, that basic thing I would say is you’ve got to, you know, walk the walk. Like if you’re not walking the walk, how are you ever going to anticipate or expect someone to follow in your footsteps or to listen to what you’re saying?

Keith Bailey:

Because, because your subordinates will see through you, right? You can say, so let’s talk a little about circle reference real quick. You can make that open-ended statement, which on its own is weightless has zero value in zero resonance to your audience of leaders that you’re speaking to. Like, you need to walk the walk. You need to do this. It’s like that guy telling me. Do you need to scrub the pans? Why do I need to scrub the pants? Right. You’re on board. And we’ll see straight through this. I remember when I was in high school was Monday, two weeks before graduation. I had just thrown the party of my life. Right now, you’ve given the meaning. You’re about to tell the story. You’re subordinate in this story. And you end up setting the leadership straight with your defiance. And as a result of that, that’s why you don’t ever want to do that. While your subordinates may not say anything to you, they’re thinking it right. That’s, that’s when that story. And you can make that thing really, really short and concise has such power to the meaning that you’re trying to deliver. Because you are in the circle, you’ve said it twice. This is what it means. Here’s the story. And this is why it means that.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. So for those that are following along, this is, I love this tool, this game, if you will, because we obviously did not talk about this. I, I don’t know if I would have shared that story in the podcast, but really what, for those that are joining this via audio and listening to this, what Keith has behind him is a sign that says one word. And so the word was teacher. And then my goal was to think of my first teacher, my best teacher, my last teacher, and my worst teacher. And that that’s all it was to come to that story that all came down to a head of, you know, this example for leadership. You, you’re prompt, wasn’t, what’s a leadership story. It was think about your first teacher, your best teacher, your last teacher, your worst teacher, and derived from that was a story about leadership.

I just, I love the simplicity of this, that we did that and came with a story and obviously like, you know, I can still, I have to fine-tune it, but it’s, it’s really great that you can do that in such a short amount of time. And that’s where I think what this tool is. So it’s just helpful because people think that they don’t have stories. This is a simple tool to be able to start to find your stories. And just like you coached me through, like, we found a meaning that I didn’t ever really realize. I never planned on sharing my defining moment of being 18. This is 20 years ago. And what I would have said.

Keith Bailey:

But how likely are you to use this story now, now that you have this great meaning behind it? Like, how is it? Is that is that the next time you see this double standard happening? Right. Are you gonna use it then you can use it in a presentation?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I mean, I think about it now. Like even when people, if I’m talking to people about how to work with kids like kids know I was 18, and I absolutely knew what was right and wrong. And I was also not afraid to talk about that because I was probably just the level of inappropriate in my insubordination, but because I’m a little bit more direct like that. And I think integrity is my high value, but I just love how quickly that we could deduce that. And yeah, maybe I would share that story of that person because it is still something to this day that sticks with me because I just, I couldn’t handle the fact that they were scolding me for something that they don’t follow themselves. And it’s, it’s awful to feel that someone’s reprimanding you, berating you, saying whatever, if they’re not following through it. So I just, there’s so many ways that I can think about that. So you talked about the circular reference, telling the story in real-time. So knocking out the fact that you know, I was there like here I was on Monday morning. What is Otey’s observation? That was another tip that you put in there.

Otey’s Observation – Details Make a Better Story

Keith Bailey:

David Otey! David Otey is a professional speaker. He’s a member of the national speakers association, Colorado chapter. He’s an engineer. And he speaks to storytelling for, for science and for engineering. And Otey’s observation is, is when you add a color and a number to a story, it makes those little details in that story, just that much more memorable. And, and he doesn’t know why. We’ve had conversations. I’ve done some collaborations with him and I’ve seen him put it to work and he’ll tell the story. And then later on like a long time later on, he came back to it again and said, and who can remember the color of my pants? And it was like khaki! Right? What was what was the color of my truck there? Like it was black, right? And like, he pulls these things forward.

Keith Bailey:

How many years had I been in the business? Oh, 23. Like people are able to recall these things because they stand out. So a adding a color on a number really helps with making the picture just that much more rounded can make the same thing, what we said, right. Given that location and giving an analogy, right? My teacher’s office was, I swear, he was put in the janitor’s broom closet. It paints the picture for the audience, or just able to allow, to allows them to visualize what a janitor’s broom closet looks like. And perhaps even smells like, or perhaps even tastes.

Jenn DeWall:

It was a science lab. It was a chemistry teacher. And it there were beakers everywhere. You can think of the Bunsen burners at each of the tables and yeah it smelled like formaldehyde.

Great Storytellers Embrace the Pause

Keith Bailey:

So in your story is you don’t have to say the beakers and the Bunsen burners. Cause you just, by saying it was a science lab that had this pungent formaldehyde smell that just opens up a whole window of senses and imagination that your audience, this is the gift you give to your audience by not overexplaining someone right by trying to draw out what the, everything in the room look like. It’s too much. We want to leave things to the audience’s imagination, which is why pausing is so important. If you were to tell this story is Mr. So-And-So pulls me into his office, which is the science room. Pause, let the audience fill in the room with stuff. And it had an overarching pungent smell of formaldehyde. Pause again, let the audience smell the formaldehyde, let them take in some kind of, you know, a malodorous odor and scent.

Let them experience that. So one of the biggest gifts you can give your audience, silence. Silence allows them to fill in those little tiny gaps and those little things within the story and enriches the story for them. If you just bulldoze right through the whole thing and speak like the micro-machine man, which dates me, he’s the man who could speak the fastest. So if in any language talked fast and was able to sell things, you sell a ton of microcars, but if you speak that fast, your audience is all they’re trying to do is keep up. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a great final closing point because I know we have to go. Embracing the pause and giving people the opportunity to place themselves in your story. With that pause, not thinking that they’re just waiting for you to get over as fast as possible, which I sometimes think when you’re a little nervous, we can feel like our audience wants, but they want you to be successful. And that’s maybe how we’ll end it here. How do people get in touch with you?

Keith Bailey:

Yeah, absolutely. You can find me on LinkedIn, Keith M J Bailey. You can find our website Articulated-Intelligence.com. And then my email is Keith@articulatedintelligence.com.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much.

Keith Bailey:

Or, or you know what, or you can do, you can reach out to Jenn. She’s got my cell phone number and she’ll be able to put you in touch with me right away.

Jenn DeWall:

No, you reach out to Articulated Intelligence. I have seen your work with these speakers. I can’t tell you enough just how you made storytelling so easy. And this might sound like a commercial, but I think it’s just such an important skill that people need to know that it was so neat to watch the competence of one of our speakers, especially that took the story and went all the way to moving up in their Toastmasters competitions, all because of the story. So if you want to reach out to the team at articulated intelligence and Keith, I would recommend it heading over there. I’ve seen it work key. Thank you so much for sharing this tool with us. And I just thank you so much for being on the show. I really am grateful for you and yes, for those, please stop and think about how you can prevent unintentional audience abuse. Thank you so much, Keith!

Keith Bailey:

Thanks Jenn. Appreciate it. See you guys soon. Live life well-spoken

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope that you had fun hearing how we can play that one word and that you are going to take that technique or reach up to Keith and his team at articulated intelligence. For those that want to connect with Keith, just as a reminder, the website is articulated-intelligence.com. They can help you with your storytelling, help you to network better, get that R-O-N. And, of course, engage your customers. If you know someone that could benefit from this podcast episode, please share it with them. And, of course, if you like this week’s episode, give us a rate and review on your favorite podcast streaming service. And finally, if you want to be a better leader or want to develop a team full of great leaders, please reach out to us at Crestcom. We would love to come into your organization or your team to help you develop your managers into leaders, leaders that show that they care and get results. Until next time.

 

The post Become a Better Storyteller with Chief Story Enabler, Keith Bailey appeared first on Crestcom International.

Tap Into Your Deep Genius with Executive Coach, Nancy Marmolejo

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Nancy Marmolejo, who is an award-winning Latinx, executive coach, and keynote speaker. She teaches leaders and entrepreneurs how to tap into their deep genius, that one-of-a-kind combination of innate strengths, life experiences, and learn expertise that only YOU can bring to the table. And let me tell you a little bit more about Nancy as the founder of talentandgenius.com. She’s committed over 15 years to uncover what makes us great and putting that into a compelling, authentic message, founder’s stories, leadership, training, communication, skills, development, and personal brands. She’s a popular speaker at leadership conferences and business events. Her work has been featured in Forbes, the Huffington Post, Latina, Univision, Smart Money, Redbook. I could go on, and her clients include leaders in the hospitality, industry, engineering, aerospace, global consulting teams, and so many more. Now I hope you enjoy our conversation as Nancy and I sit down and talk about how you can develop and tap into your deep genius.

Meet Nancy Marmolejo, Founder of Talent and Genius

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down With Nancy Marmolejo, an executive coach, and keynote speaker. And today, we’re going to talk about how to tap into your deep genius and discover the strengths of your team. Nancy, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. It’s great to have you,

Nancy Marmolejo:

Jenn. I’m really excited to be here. Thank you so much.

Jenn DeWall:

So Nancy, how did this, how do you even start to maybe become interested in this subject of finding a deep genius? I mean, it’s a big conceptual topic, and I know it’s important, but tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey.

Nancy Marmolejo:

Sure. You know, I, I look at the word genius, and if you look it up in the dictionary, it doesn’t just mean that you have a super high IQ or this extraordinary intellectual ability. It also means extraordinary creativity or other natural abilities. And so, I truly believe that we all walk around with extraordinary natural abilities. It’s just a matter of seeing them, finding them, claiming them. In my very first career, I worked as a teacher, and my students were the kids who were falling through the cracks, and the system really wasn’t there to champion their success, unfortunately. And I would look at each one of them just so deeply and look at their life experience, look at their innate strengths, look at the things that I could see they were doing well, and reflect that back to them. And suddenly, there was a whole different way of viewing themselves as students, as just members of society. And I, I, when I started my business, which was a few quite few, well, a few years ago, I’ll just say, I’ll drop that over a decade. You know, I took that concept to work with business owners and professionals and leadership organizations to show people.

Nancy Marmolejo:

We have so many folks just walking around, not understanding their value and, and sort of being gaslit to think that they’re not all that they are. So that’s, that’s my mission. And that’s, that’s what I’m out here, you know, preaching the gospel of deep genius.

What is Deep Genius?

Jenn DeWall:

But it’s such an important gospel. And it’s such an important message. I think about even where I was at earlier in my career. I would have benefited so much from hearing someone say, Hey, you may have gotten some feedback, and you may have really taken that personally and use that to make assumptions about yourself and your capabilities, but guess what? That’s not actually true. It doesn’t have to be true. And let’s maybe challenge that. Like, I think that you know, you don’t realize that when you’re even starting your career or even when you’re starting at a new company, you don’t realize that we can still be malleable, that we don’t have to take on like the pain feedback, whatever that is and use that to dull our light. And that it’s also not “cocky” to like talk about your deep genius. I just think the work that you’re doing is, is so important. What do you see as the biggest problem with work today in terms of understanding deep genius or maybe just getting people to be able to identify their own values?

Nancy Marmolejo:

Well, the feedback that I get when I deliver workshops or keynotes or any kind of training with, especially in corporate environments, is people always come back to me, and they say nobody’s ever bothered to find out more about me. What people are doing is looking at what’s on paper. You know, the resume is great, but it doesn’t tell everything. And when we find out like we, well, here’s an example, this one is really easy. Like when we find out that somebody is a student-athlete and you know, we see these people in the Olympics, and they’re, you know, they’re winning gold medals, and they’re in medical school, and they’re, you know, valedictorians, it’s like, wow, that person has some amazing capabilities and some amazing leadership and some self-discipline, we can put that all together—just that same way. There are things in our lives where we’re the equivalent of an Olympic gold medalist or, you know, in that school or valedictorians, what are the things that we have done in life? The life experiences that we have had, sometimes it’s not necessarily things that you want, everybody that everybody you know, finds out from your LinkedIn profile, but it has that understanding that we bring life experiences, we bring innate strengths, we might have some different kinds of training. And all of that puts us together into a very unique, valuable bundle, not being able to have the space to expose that and explore that I think is one of the biggest problems that we have.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And it’s that, you know, looking at that resume, it’s, it’s so limiting, right. A resume. How could I possibly put my personality into a resume? I don’t know if I would that make it colorful, maybe have it scented, you know, there is so much that’s missing, right. It’s very flat. I mean, it’s a piece of paper, but it’s very flat. And I also, you know, I’m curious what your thoughts are too. Like one of the problems around not only leaders or organizations taking the time to get to know someone at a human level through their diversity, but also that as individuals, I know for me sometimes if I wasn’t achieving an award, if I wasn’t doing something grand, like being picked to be on a committee or something, oftentimes I also am like, well, I guess if they want someone that’s like that, and I’m not that then I guess I don’t produce value. Right. So I guess I thought of, as you said, and used those examples of the athletes like I’m not winning gold medals, so what value do I have? You know, I think sometimes that’s easy to believe or to start to tell yourself, so let’s dive into what a deep genius is, what is understanding or deep genius. Cause we’re going to help our audience really understand how to tap into that today. So how do we discover a deep genius? And before we get there, what is it?

Deep Genius Starts with Our Innate Strengths

Nancy Marmolejo:

Sure. And let’s just pretend that we’re all in a workshop together. I’m guiding you through one of the deep genius events and exercises because that’s really where it gets fun. So you want to think about a couple of different things. One is that we all have innate strengths. We all have things that come easy to us, and they’re things that we know how to do without knowing how we know how. Does that make sense?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I think that’s strange, like when I think about people are like, oh Jenn, you, you do speaking. And you like that. And that is honestly one of the things for me. Like, I don’t know how I can do it. I’m not trying to be cocky. It’s just something I feel very comfortable in. And I could not tell you how.

Nancy Marmolejo:

Yes, we know people who are naturally good with numbers, naturally good with taking things apart and putting them back together again, naturally good at sensing how others are feeling you can look back at when you were a kid. And these are things that you’ve just always had and always been true for you. Maybe there’s a natural sense of design and aesthetics or a natural sense of engineering and understanding how things work. These are the innate strengths and gifts that we have. And they could be either a skill such as something that you know, how to do. Like I’ve always loved to write, and I’ve always, and I was, I was talking like, my mom told me that when I was little, I just started talking. There was no baby talk. There was no, and it’s like. I went from like, you know, a baby to like, Hey, how are you doing?

Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, and there was just, I just went into that. It was like, I, you know, and she reflected that back to me when I was older. And I thought, oh, you know, that’s, I I’ve felt comfortable teaching and talking in front of others before I even knew what that was. Some people I notice have this amazing sense of empathy. They could just look and sense somebody. Other people have the leadership, you know, they’re not afraid to take charge that Daredevil the adventurer, all of these things. And whether it’s nature or nurture, there are so many sources of it. It just is. So that’s the first piece of it is things that you’re innately great at those things that you know how to do without really knowing how you know how to do them.

Jenn DeWall:

So here’s our message, right. So right now, everyone, like you, have an innate strength. You have an innate strength. Even if you’re driving in your car and you’re thinking or comparing yourself to someone else, you absolutely have an innate strength.

Nancy Marmolejo:

Yeah, think of the things you’re the go-to person for, or they come easily and naturally to you. And what happens more often than not is we overlook these because they come so naturally to us. It’s like, oh, come on. That’s so easy. Well, when I hire a plumber and pay plumber prices, you know, that takes the person two seconds to fix something. I think to myself, oh my gosh. But they have that. They have that gift. You know, it’s easy for them, but not easy for me. So I can say, oh my gosh, you know, you’re so talented. And you just did that. They might not think, well, I just, you know, I, it was nothing or somebody who’s naturally you know, a speaker, a writer or a leader, somebody else might look at them and say, I just don’t know how you do that.

And they said, I just, I just do it. They might think everybody can do that. Well, not everybody can do it. What happens is we can’t always see it in ourselves. You know our eyes are on the inside, looking out. Our eyes aren’t on the outside looking in. The one thing I always tell people is, imagine what it’s like when you’re in a store, and you see yourself on the security camera. So do I look like that? I need to start standing up a little straight.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, at Target when I’m checking out. I’m like, is this what I look like?

Nancy Marmolejo:

Yeah. Like, oh, pull that, pull that stomach in. Or it’s like, suddenly we’re aware of ourselves or, oh, look at me. I look pretty good. We, we don’t see ourselves sometimes it’s helpful for somebody else. That’s why, when I do deep genius, you know, any kind of workshops around this, I love having a group and getting people into small groups and breakout sessions and pairing up with somebody and, and just reflecting these things back and forth because we can’t always see it in ourselves.

So, so that’s the first part is the innate, the innate piece. There, there are two other, two other areas where I advise people to look, so I’ll share those, too. Okay. So I also encourage you to look at your life experiences; life experiences teach us things, and whether it’s the highs or the lows. The birth of a child. Falling in love. If we find out about, I never knew I could love so much. I never knew my heart could burst open caring for somebody in the end-of-life stages. The loss of a loved one is that, that deep grief. What did it teach you? What is something that you, maybe you thought I could never go on? And then you found out that you can. You know, where I am in California and, you know, you’re in Colorado, we are just, you know, wildfires happening all around us. There has been loss. There have been catastrophes. And what some people find out is I never knew I could be the support system that I am. Or I never knew I could get through a natural disaster. So many different things, or maybe, you know, traveling or living abroad, having you know, live, move from one country to another being an immigrant. We have life experiences that show us things about ourselves. And I encourage people to take an inventory and look and see what the strengths that were gifted to you as a result of that experience, whether it was something that was difficult or something that was really beautiful and joyful.

To Find Your Deep Genius – Stop Comparing Yourself to Others

Jenn DeWall:

What a great place to start. I think you know, what comes to mind for me is that what you’re saying is that no matter who you are, look for your, you know, your highs, your lows, and the messages that can come out. And I think sometimes people miss out on those life experiences. And I’m curious if you agree, because we often when we look at the lows or the lessons in life, I feel like I sometimes the way I compare myself to someone else. And so then I minimize my experience because it doesn’t seem as difficult, tragic, you know, glorious, amazing as someone else’s. So again, it’s that ugly cycle of not even missing out on that opportunity to learn because I’m somehow saying the life experience wasn’t what someone else’s was. Do you see that a lot with your clients?

Nancy Marmolejo:

Yeah. And I think it’s part of it is sharing the stories and having somebody else, you know, tell me a story about a difficult time in your life, and you know, what came out of it. And you tell that story, and the person who’s listening to you sharing starts spotting other things. It’s like, wow, I see creativity. I see leadership. I see innovation. I see resilience. And they start reflecting back to you, things that you might not have taken inventory. And that’s where we start to build this understanding that there’s more to us than what it says on the performance review or what it says on the resume. And one of the metaphors I like to use is- where I live, I’m near the Redwood forests in Northern California. So I go hiking through the redwoods. And one of the things about Redwood trees is that they’re fire-resistant, which is interesting. And you wonder, I wonder why their bark is fire resistant. You know, trees that if there’s a fire, they actually, it’s hard for, for a Redwood tree to get completely burned down. You will go through the forest, and you’ll see these black scars all over the trees because fire has touched them, but it continues on.

And so one thing I look at it, and I think, well, that is resilience. I’m going to go hiking through the redwoods to remind myself of any trauma or pain I’ve experienced. And I’m looking at this tree standing tall and mighty and think to myself, okay, I can rise too. What are the strengths I brought along? And interestingly enough, with Redwood trees, their little seed cones, the only way those seeds can get released is through intense heat. So it’s like they have to experience that fire, that, that, that would, could be like that hardship in order to even go on. There are so many. There are so many lessons that you can get. That’s why people love hiking in the Redwood forest is; you just like, feel the wisdom of the earth all around you.

Jenn DeWall:

Wow. I had no idea. And that makes me think of a diamond. I know that a diamond comes to be if your pressure, but I had no idea that Redwood seeds needed that heat to be able to grow. Wow, beautiful stories about resilience and growth and overcoming adversity.

Nancy Marmolejo:

I think about that in our own life stories, like where have we had to go through that? Do you know? And then, and then the last piece that I ask people to look at is, okay, well, let’s look at some of your formal training and how has that meshed with your innate gifts? How has that mesh with your life experience? And I think, well, people have probably heard the story of this college dropout who had this beautiful sense of aesthetics but was also very strong-willed, some people might say kind of a jerk, but a visionary and strong-willed, and the sense of aesthetics who had the life experiences of traveling and going on a spiritual journey and then had the training in electronics and in calligraphy, oddly enough. And then this person dropped out of college and ended up partnering with another person to start a computer company that introduced us to beautiful fonts and a minimalist aesthetic. And the sense of design that prior to that, you did not equate computers with beautiful lettering and a sense of design, or even the shape and size of the computer or the various devices that this company came out with and their aesthetic. So do you know who it is that I’m talking about?

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, that’s gotta be Steve jobs.

Nancy Marmolejo:

It’s Steve Jobs. Yeah. He had a background in calligraphy. He took calligraphy in college. He was like a total, like in college, he was just like, you know, I’m just going to take calligraphy, you know, but it, he fell in love with fonts. So what, so what happened when, when Apple computers started, as we started exploring beautiful lettering, we can you know, thank him for that.

How Your Life Experiences Can Help You Tap Into Deep Genius

Nancy Marmolejo:

And, and so we look at these different life experiences, I think about Malala, who at the age of 14 was shot in the face for being a proponent of education for girls in her country. And, and now she is, you know, an international spokesperson for education for girls women’s rights. I mean, there are so, you know, her life experience and all the things that came out of her presented us with this leader, and she couldn’t be where she was now if she didn’t have this natural curiosity and leadership capability if she wasn’t, you know, mentored her father was a teacher and created a school for girls and her life experience of this horrific, horrific act of violence that then made her become just the symbol of, of a movement worldwide. So we have so many different things that place us where we are now as, as geniuses, without really we didn’t set out and say, okay, I’m gonna be this. It’s, it’s just following the trajectory of life and paying attention to how these three components are all acting together.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Okay. So deep genius for those that are still wondering is the combination or the, you know, the combination of our natural abilities, our life experiences, and then maybe our education and skills development, or just development in that way. And so that combination brings us to where we are today, and it leads us on our path for where we can go tomorrow or how we can continue to evolve. Why don’t people connect with it? Like, what do you see? Why, why don’t people connect with it? Or how did we get lost from being able to see our deep genius?

Nancy Marmolejo:

I just don’t think we have enough opportunities to even have the conversation or do the exploration. And w and then also what I said before is like, we don’t always see it in ourselves, but then again, what you just mentioned, like the resume and the education, we look at the school, we look at the, you know, like, oh, they went to that school. We better hire them. That means they’re good. Not necessarily. There are people who, you know, if you look at somebody who didn’t come from the right school, but they have this life experience that is far more valuable than the institution or the degree they received, or they have this inmate combination of gifts that you think, well, that is, you don’t see that often. So if we’re only going by what’s on paper, that’s something I, I gave a workshop to a large aerospace organization that they send people, you know, to outer space. We should know who they are, four letters, anyhow, they and at the end of this, we were giving feedback, and somebody had said, I wish this was part of our onboarding process. I wish that when we stepped foot into this company, somebody would just find base things out about us because there is, they think, oh, we don’t have the talent for that. We have to keep seeking. We have to find all these people. And the talent is right under our noses. We just need to take a moment. I think it saves a lot of money to just find out what are the assets and then the gems that we have right here. Dig a little deeper into who is currently here right now, as opposed to saying, oh, we, we, we lack this. Let’s go on this big expensive quest to find that position when meanwhile it was right there, and that person is sitting next to you, you just didn’t have the opportunity or the structure to find it out. You may not have asked to be that simple. You just never asked.

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Understanding Your Deep Genius

Jenn DeWall:

How do you start to begin this journey to tackle understanding your own deep genius? Like, how do you, you know, figure out like, okay, now that I’m looking at this, like, especially if you’re still stuck with maybe the limitation believing that your education or your degrees or your something makes you qualified. How do you start to maybe peel back to be able to see this more inclusive sense of value that represents the three components?

Nancy Marmolejo:

Well, some people can do it on their own, and there’s a self-awareness that it allows them to say, oh, look at that. I see this about myself. Boom. There I go. Other people you really need to, you know, whether it’s with a partner or a coach or a group of people, there’s something the thing about being seen by somebody else, having that space of being able to be, have somebody reflect back to you, what it is that they’re seeing and hearing, that’s very valuable. Or if a person just can commit to doing some self-reflection and understanding that, that, that little voice it’s going to pop up every now and then saying you have no right to claim that. No, that’s not valuable. Everybody can do that. You’re not the one; you’re a fake, all of that imposter talk, all of that. I’m a fake talk. I understand that that might come up, and just keep doing it. Yeah, know, just, just for fun. I would tell my clients, it’s like, just humor me, just humor me and write it down. Okay. Let’s just pretend that we could put that inner critic in the other room for a moment and, and you know, what can we do to just honestly get an assessment? And so once we, I tell people just, just write it in three columns, here are your innate gifts and here’s your life experience and here’s your education and start looking, add it. And the fun part and this is, this is the part that I liked the most is when you, you start looking for unusual combinations. Where are the unusual combinations, and what does that say about you?

So a few years back, I was at a leadership conference for women in engineering, and I had them pair up. This was when we were in person. We, I had them pair up, and it was so interesting because, before the conference, somebody said to me, oh, they won’t like this. This is engineers. They’re going to want you to just be straightforward. Tell them what to do, let them go out. They don’t want to think they don’t want it. And I said, oh, you’re kind of generalizing, but let’s, I don’t know. Let’s see, because they accepted my proposal for the conference. So maybe they’ll like it. Well, first of all, it was standing room only. There were so many people that just filled this room. And then, once they got into pairs. We found out there was somebody who was trained as an opera singer and a chemical engineer. And I mean, and she had kind of a mish-mash educational background. There was somebody who was into like crystals or somebody who just had a breakup. I mean, there were all these different life experiences and combinations. So rather than looking at this room and saying, okay, they’re all engineers. I can make all these assumptions about them. I now have these levels of depth and nuances about who they are. And the great thing is, is that at the end of that workshop, there were people pairing up and going into the hallway, and they were like, we’re going to start an app. Or we’re having a meeting. It was it just like it created these connections for people where they didn’t realize that that person sitting over there was exactly that kind of combination of skills and strengths and innate gifts that they needed to be in contact with. So you just have to. You just have to put it out in the open. We can’t just read minds and assume that we know.

A Simple Exercise to Start Tapping Into Deep Genius

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So here’s the assignment for all of The Leadership Habit guests. This is where you’re going to take your piece of paper. This is coming from Nancy. You are going to write down what your natural abilities are and put your self-doubt to the side because we all have that. Or I love when people say they don’t have self-doubt, Nancy. And the second thing. So put your columns, right? So first column, what are your natural strengths? Second column? What are the life experiences that are unique to you? And you don’t even have to find a meaning to that. Like, think about the ones that stand out. You don’t have to attach it because you had said, and then do your third, which is your skills, education, or background, and then combine them all together and look for your own themes. Don’t try to make them into something to say, well, they’re not, you’re enough. Just be curious about it. That’s the first assignment. I hope that everyone does that—those who are listening to this podcast.

Nancy Marmolejo:

That’s the starting off point. That is the starting off point. And I think there’s something that when we realize that we do have a very unique combination. I mean, that’s not the ending point. That’s the starting point. And people will sometimes contact me and say, Nancy, tell me what my deep genius is. And I’m saying. I’m not— I don’t do readings. I can see you. I can work with you. I can reflect back to you. What I see together. We can identify these pieces, but then the next question comes up. What do I do with this? What am I here to create? What am I here to lead? What am I here to innovate in? What do I need to communicate to the world? Like, okay, I got this thing, now what?

Personal Branding and Explaining Your Deep Genius to Others

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. You have the self-awareness, but what do you, where do you even begin to apply it? Okay. So what do you do?

Nancy Marmolejo:

Well, everybody’s going to be different. It depends. So for some people, it’s around, like a lot of the work I do is around personal branding, but the personal branding work that I do, it’s not like a cute little tagline. And you know, let’s find a gimmicky title for you or, or, or create some kind of a persona it’s like, let’s just honestly, authentically and accurately explain you. I always tell my clients they have to control the narrative because if you don’t control the narrative, somebody else will, and they might not get it.

Jenn DeWall:

Right. Perception is reality.

Nancy Marmolejo:

So you have these, this one opportunity is around just being able to say, oh my gosh, there are these things about me. And I don’t know how to tell the world. I said, okay, well, let’s do that through personal branding. And then from my leadership clients, they’ll say, okay, well, I understand this about myself, and I have this, you know, personal brand. How do I communicate that as a leader? How do I use this as a leader? And so, you know, what is the vision that you have for your company? What is the vision that you have for your team? How can you call upon these unique strengths and innate gifts to show up fully as a leader that people will say is the person who I am following. Because if you come up there and you’re just strictly technical and giving out instructions and step-by-steps, that’s not necessarily leadership. That’s more just, here’s a list of things. Say you’re a taskmaster. So are you a visionary leader, or are you a taskmaster? And having this understanding of your deep genius elevates yourself as a leader. So you’re not just, you know, barking out orders, you get people enrolled in your vision, and you know, everything seems to happen a lot easier, a lot faster, and a lot smoother when everybody buys into the vision.

Jenn DeWall:

What happens Nancy, when, and maybe, you know, this is kind of our conversation that started, you know, during our pre-call, when you do this reflection, you think about what are my natural gifts, what as my life experience, what as my background in education, and you kind of come up with this belief, right? Awareness around who you are and how you can provide value. But then you recognize that in some area of your life, you’re actually working counter to those things. So you’re maybe not leveraging a strength. You’re maybe doing something that you’re not qualified to do, or maybe from a life experience, doing something that you don’t want to do. So, cause I feel like that’s kind of the reason choice that I made to make that resignation from that board. It isn’t because I don’t love that board. It’s just that doing an assessment around like this actually doesn’t work for me anymore, but what do you, what do you do? Like what would your advice be to someone when they look at that? And you’re like, and you make you connect it back to your life. And you’re like, I’m really not leveraging my deep genius. Like how do you then start to move into that trajectory?

Identify Your Values to Tap Into Deep Genius

Nancy Marmolejo:

Well, you need to make some decisions. And I never push anybody out into the deep end of the pool and say, all right here, go figure it out. I’m a firm believer in having a foundation underneath you before you do any of this. So when I start working with people through this process, we actually will look at core values. What are the things that you stand for? What are the things that are important to you? What are the things that, when they are dishonored, get you angry? Because sometimes people say, oh yeah, these are my top values. And I said, okay, well, tell me about the last few times you’ve gotten mad at anything. And then we’re going to pull out what was the, what was the boundary, the value that was, that was crossed. And so then you realize, well, I was disrespected, so I got angry, so, okay. So respect is one of your core values. Did you name it? Well, no. Well, it’s showing up. This is how it’s showing up. And so we look at, you know, making sure that we have that understanding, making sure that we have the right words that describe who we are in our genius. Some people are geniuses at simplifying complex processes.

Do you say the word simplify when you describe yourself? Do you let people know that simplifying things is one of your jams? No, you don’t? You need to start doing that. Are you a person who optimizes, you know, things you’re always, you’re like that process improvement ninja everywhere you look around, you’re always looking at like, this could be better. And like, let me tell you how. There are people that just seriously walk around like that. Are you that person who really senses others, and you realize that that’s a deep gift of yours? So empathy and emotional intelligence. Are you letting people know that? So that’s part of it. It’s like you first have to, under, you have to understand those core values. They have to understand those. I call them your power words. And are, are you just kind of keeping that to yourself or letting the world know? So that’s important. And that’s, that’s one of the pieces of where we start.

Jenn DeWall:

So how do you find those words? I mean, so I get being able to maybe do that assessment of yourself, but I know one of the challenges is to truly embody that because we are still marginalized, maybe what those things mean. So how do we begin to maybe embrace it in a way that’s confident and positive and connecting with who we truly are instead of being like, I don’t know, I don’t want to come off as cocky because you’re not, you’re supposed to, you know, just do what, think of the messages that we’ve all been told? Like, oh, like it’s everyone has strengths. Don’t talk about yours. How do you, like, what are those barriers that will naturally come up? I think I picture just fighting off those messages. Like Jenn, like, you’re not that great. Like everyone can do it. Don’t worry. I say all of that stuff all the time. I’m just a total jerk to myself, and just like some people listening might resonate with. And if you don’t, I’m jealous of you because I hate inner-critic talk. But what do you like, how do you find those words? How do you start to actually like to live it, breathe it, own it?

Nancy Marmolejo:

Well, I mean, I provide my clients with like lists and lists of words. I mean, if you want to find the words, there are lists of words I have. I don’t know if you want to go search them, like, you know, strong verbs. I mean, whatever it is, you don’t always have to say them because it might sound kind of weird. You don’t walk up and conversation and say, I maximize productivity. That would sound kind of weird. But if you know, in the back of your head, that’s what you do. There’s something about the knowing, you know, when somebody has swagger, they don’t tell you how cool they are. You see it, you feel it, they embody it.

So you just have to let it sink into your bones and let people know that about you without you having to necessarily pronounce it. I think that’s one of the reasons why I do a lot of work in personal branding. Because I always dislike the way people are taught to communicate because it’s, it never sounds natural. It never sounds like it’s in the flow. And I think it comes on a little strong and you can say, well, that person’s sure full of themselves. And they don’t really mean to come across that way. That’s just how they were taught. I’d rather somebody feel so comfortable in their own skin, that the language that comes out when you’re, when you’re talking about yourself when you’re, you’re in your deep genius, you want to communicate that, it’s natural and authentic. It doesn’t feel like you just had to suddenly, you know, pull out a script and start reciting something that somebody taught you how to do. But there are simple ways of doing this, that you, you know, if there are words that we can latch onto that really energize our conversations and help people get a mental picture of you in your deep genius.

Forget the Elevator Pitch and Really Connect with Others

Jenn DeWall:

But we have to find those words. And so one of the things you just touched on is that you do. So once you find your deep genius understanding of the three areas that you know of you that combine together to create a unique value, then it comes down to how do you brand it? How do you give voice to that? And so your work is also, you know, obviously, you’re a keynote speaker, you’re an executive coach and helping people find that deep genius, but then it’s how do you brand it? So what’s the starting point. And I know that there’s a tool that you can share with our listeners, too, that maybe are on this journey of thinking about how do I brand myself? What does that look like once you find your deep genius? What happens after that?

Nancy Marmolejo:

It’s so much fun! I mean, you there, one of the things I tell people to just have as many different ways of communicating or, or being confident in your deep genius to be able to have this conversation. So don’t just rely on the one elevator pitch that you learned at some networking event or whatever it is. And that can serve its purpose sometimes. But, but don’t just rely on that. I always tell people, like they say, well, we need the 32nd elevator pitch. And I said, well, if you’re pitching like pitching for funding, going to an actual pitch-fest. Yeah. You have to say it a certain way because you are hardcore selling an idea right there. But if really I’m in the elevator with you and I just want to meet another human being. I don’t want to be pitched. I don’t know. Cool. You know, I know that there’s that urban legend of somebody who was in the elevator, and they had the right thing that they said. And the next thing you know, they’ve made the billion-dollar deals, and everybody lived happily ever after. You know, sometimes I just want to. I just don’t want all that broadcasting in my face. I really truly want to know you as a person. And, and so what are some different ways we can do that?

And you’ve asked me a couple of times about words. I want to throw a couple of words out. These are some of the most common ones that I watch people use and feel really comfortable with. But for example, I use the word simplify. There are some people who are very good at simplifying a complex process. If you do that and it comes easily and naturally to you. Use that language, simplify, let people associate you with the word simplify or streamline or demystify. Or for me, I was. I started my life off as a teacher. The word teach, I mean the word, teach. That is me! That’s what I do. I teach. And I reflect somebody talks to me. It doesn’t matter who you are. I mean, it could be the person putting the cable in. It could be somebody coming over and, you know, dropping off a package. I could like immediately reflect back to somebody what I see as their strength. It’s I can’t live my life without doing that. That’s part of my deep genius. So when people know me as, when, who teaches, and who reflects, I use that language, they know that about me. There are people who make connections, just authentic connections with people. So just think about that and put, put words to it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Oh my gosh. So Nancy, how does our audience get, get in touch with you? How can they potentially work with you to maybe help discover their deep genius?

Find Out More About Talent and Genius

Nancy Marmolejo:

Well, I have, if you can come to my website, talentandgenius.com and there, you know, a few different ways you can contact me there if you want me, you know, for speaking, for coaching, for training, that is a really easy thing to do is just go to talentandgenius.com. There’s a free resource there that I call ten message starters. And this one has been so much fun. I have used this with entrepreneurs. I’ve used this with aerospace engineers. I’ve used this with CEOs. I’ve used this with, oh my gosh. People in health and wellness, I mean just every kind of industry, and it’s ten sentence-starters. It’s like these ten little frameworks, almost like Madlibs, you could fill in the blanks. But they range from everything to, you know, more of the formal, you know, I simplify complex processes. So companies can make more money to have a cross between Mr. T and Mr. Rogers to I’m a geek whisper. What do you do with all of those different things? And so I show people how they can create these interesting little message starters, and then like the next level piece of it is how you can even piece them together and create a new bio for yourself or a new way to introduce yourself or a new way to be identified.

It’s really fun. And the people that I’ve taught this to, as I said, from a wide range of fields, everybody always has some kind of an aha moment, and they’ll take it and apply it. Like LinkedIn profiles start getting changed, or some of the things, you know, talking in a different way about themselves when they’re introducing themselves around the table. It’s, it’s been pretty life-changing for a lot of people.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I imagine it also just gives a different boat of confidence to truly appreciate ourselves and the contributions that we offer to a team, an organization, the community, our friends. I love that. So if you want to get the ten message starters, or just, you know, get to know more about Nancy’s work, they can head on over to talented genius.com. Is that right? That is correct. Nancy, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much for your insights on how we can tap into our deep genius. It’s an important topic, and I hope that people walk away with seeing their own unique gifts. Thank you for helping them find that.

Nancy Marmolejo:

Thank you for having me here. It’s been a pleasure

Jenn DeWall:

So much for listening to this week’s episode of the leadership have a podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nancy. If you want to get her tips on how to talk about yourself in 10 message starters, you can head on over to talentandgenius.com there. There you can also book Nancy for speaking, coaching, training. You name it. If you enjoy this week’s episode, please leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. And most importantly, if you thought of someone that could benefit from this, don’t forget to share this with them. Thank you so much for your attention. Your organization is looking for leadership development training, looking to develop your managers into leaders, head on over to Crestcom.com. There you can sign up for a complimentary to our leadership skills workshop to help your team succeed! Until next time.

 

The post Tap Into Your Deep Genius with Executive Coach, Nancy Marmolejo appeared first on Crestcom International.

Building Relationships for Sales Success with Kelly Mark

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with sales, leadership expert and strategist, Kelly Mark. Kelly has over 25 years of experience in solution selling and managing successful sales teams. She helps them to focus on the pain points that organizations face as the pace of technology continues to grow and change rapidly. Kelly consults companies as they search for expertise around integrating technologies as digital transformation and collaboration are at the forefront of any company’s strategy. Kelly began her career with Intrado, gaining unparalleled experience in the telecommunication space while also establishing herself as a respected sales leader. Currently working as an area vice president for boss solutions, Kelly is widely known for her collaboration technology strategy and consultative approach. She has consistently been a top performer selling IT automation, collaboration, technologies to key strategic partners in large global enterprises. Kelly’s commitment to the evolving IT Industry is showcased in our passion for our relationships with our customers, partners, and peers. I hope you enjoy the conversation as Kelly and I sit down to talk about how you can build and create sustainable relationships.

Full Transcript Below:

Meet Kelly Mark

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting down on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit with Kelly mark. For those that are just getting to know Kelly, she is an area vice president of sales. And today, we’re going to be talking all about the art of building relationships because, let’s say, if we’re breathing, we likely need a relationship. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us on the show.

Kelly Mark:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to talk about this, especially in the times we’re in, so it’s an exciting topic.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Yeah, because I think it’s also a topic that we kind of forget, right. If we don’t have that face-to-face interaction, how are we building these relationships? Or how are we even getting in touch with people if we can’t do networking events or if we can’t do so much and so forth? So yeah, I think it’s a great time to have this topic, and we haven’t talked about sales in a while here at The Leadership Habit. So I’m excited to just be talking about it because, let’s be honest, we’re all in the business of influencing in some way. So Kelly, before we jump into it, just tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you become, like, how did you, what was your career trajectory? How did you become interested in sales? Because I know that you’ve had a successful sales career, clearly you’re an Area Vice President of Sales. Tell us how you came to be.

Kelly Mark:

Sure, sure. That’s such a great question. I mean, I never sought out to be in sales when I was growing up or even in my really young twenties. But I grew up in Northern California, and, after high school, I was starting to go to college, and I was really trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And I waited tables, and I was a bartender, and I was always in a relationship type of role in everything that I had been doing. And I started I actually met somebody as I was bartending, who said you would be really great at sales. And I started working for a software company. I ended up getting this job through somebody that was literally just a customer, and we hit it off. I ended up getting hired. I ended up on a very fast track, starting as a customer service rep, moving into a junior sales role, and then into more of a leadership sales role there. And from there, it just started evolving. I started working for, you know, from there we were acquired, I, you know, moved over and started doing some dot com work because, at the time in the late nineties, that was the big thing to do thinking I was going to make it really big.

And unfortunately, people around me made it big, but I did not. So I kept working, and you know, through an evolution of different roles in sales, I ended up sitting in my hairdresser’s chair one day, knowing that my job was going to come to an end. It was a brand new division that, you know, just was coming to an end of life. And she said you gotta meet my friend, Anna. She is amazing. She’s dynamic. She runs the west coast for an organization in tech. And I had a couple of years under my belt at this point and ended up meeting her. And as I was sitting in front of her across her desk, she said, Kelly, I am hiring you, and I’m not hiring you because of your skills. I’m hiring you because of your energy. You’re tenacious. You’re alert. You’re a good listener. Like I just connect with you so much that I can train you on anything you want to know. And so I’ll train you on the technology part. And from there, it was history. I grew in that specific position and then ended up following her to a couple of additional companies and ended up back at the company. She hired me. And, and there I’d spent 20 years at one organization, which evolved over time. We were acquired a couple of times over, but I really wore several different hats in the sales arena and built a very good reputation around my relationships. And when I say that my relationships were very focused, not just externally with my prospects and customers, but internally within my organization, which is another element of how we sell, right. It’s how we connect with people. So I did that for 20 years.

And then I ended up about a year ago during the pandemic making a switch. It was just time for a change. And I currently work for a company called boss solutions. And it’s really over the past 11 months that I’ve realized how critical and important the art of building relationships is because being somewhere for 20 years, you’d get comfortable. You know, everybody, you are competent in your role and how the company works and really making a jump. After 20 years into this new role, I had to start over. I had to figure out the internal processes, who I was working with internally, who might target ideal customer profiles that I was really focusing on building these relationships with and selling to essentially. And quite frankly, it worked out in my favor of having some great initial first opportunities to sell into companies that Voss had not been a part of before. And it was all due to people I knew in the industry and just people I knew in general.

The Art of Building Relationships

Jenn DeWall:

I love how that’s already coming full circle of, you know, we’re talking about the topic of the art of building relationships you recently began or transitioned to a different company within the last few years. And it’s because of those relationships that you’ve established. I mean, one company for 20 years, I can only imagine how many people you met throughout that experience. Still, coming back and recognizing that it’s thrown all of those seeds that you planted really helped you find and create more success to where you are today. How did you become like, I mean, I love that your, that your friend had, or initially not your friend, but your colleague had initially pointed out, pointed out like your tenacity, your attitude, your ability to connect, your listening skills- all to say, like, I don’t even necessarily care what you know, but I know that you have this and it sounds like it’s a secret sauce. So how did you become interested in really wanting to focus on building relationships?

Kelly Mark:

That’s such a great question. I think I think, of course, part of it’s a little bit innate in who I am as a human being. And I think just the way I was raised, I, I always knew that what made me excited every day was connecting with people, connecting with people on some level. And so, you know, as, as competitive as the job market is whether it’s today, right, 20, 25 years later, or even back then when I was sitting across the table from Anna, I knew that, you know, I needed to differentiate myself. So I needed to be different than what everybody else was doing. But I also knew that connecting with her personally first was going to help me in a professional way. And I guess what I mean by that is it’s important to engage. It’s not all about your goal and what you’re focused on. You know, obviously, my goal was to get a new job. But outside of that, I was interviewing her as much as she was interviewing me. And in order to really build and understand where you want to go, I think it’s critical to connect with somebody on a human level. And so I think, I think that’s just something that I’ve always been really focused on because of competition and because I wanted to be different. Right? And, and the challenges we have in today’s world are different than back then, but we still have to absolutely differentiate ourselves at the end of the day.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And let’s talk about some of the challenges, and I love that. It’s like you initially chose, like, this will be my differentiator. Oh my gosh. I just wonder what an organization would look like if everyone legitimately like all of their actions reflected making relationships a priority because you had also said like you want to connect at a human level. Picture if leaders were connected with their staff at a human level all the time. Just the success we could have, because we’re going to talk about today, like the important things about relationships, but whether you’re in a sales role or not, you’re in the business of relationships. And so we’re just talking about that. And so even if you’re initially like, wait, but we’re going to talk about sales. No. I want you to think about the insights Kelly is going to share with you have to, how you can show up for your team, to how you can build better relationships with them. Kelly, what do you think is the most important thing to know right now as it relates to building relationships?

People are Yearning For Connection

Kelly Mark:

Ooh, that is such a good question. I think right now, when I look at the job market or when I went to relationships in general. People are yearning for connection. So I think right in the here and now, there are a couple of different components. One is we are going through a pandemic, hopefully at the tail end of that pandemic. And so we have to think about how we can connect with people in a different way than we’ve ever had to before we may not be going into the office. We may be just on a lot of conference calls. You know, people are hurting, you know, people have got different circumstances happening in their personal life that we don’t know about when we’re doing business. So how do you connect with them on that personal level? And it’s really about asking questions, getting to know people, you know, leveraging video, right. It’s starting off conversations and discussions without jumping into the goal or the purpose connect with them, right. Connect with them on a personal level because the chance, the chances are that they are going to appreciate that, especially in today’s climate.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you share that because no one wants to be. I mean, I think I would call it “networked on,” or I think they call it the show-up and throw-up method where you don’t care at all about maybe the person that you’re talking to. You just want them to hear what you have to say. And that’s for those that are unfamiliar with that phrase. That’s really what that means. Right. Show up and throw up. You’re just giving them your pitch, and you’re not even getting to know them. You’re probably not even aware if they’re like breathing, listening, hungry, irritable just because you are more focused on making sure that your topic or what you came to do is presented and put in front of them. Like when you talk about right now that people are craving connection, that’s like the worst thing that you could do right now is show up and throw up, sorry to interrupt you on that.

Kelly Mark:

So true. And I think that’s. I think that’s really important to highlight. Not only for people we may not know very well, right. That we’re trying to get to know, but also for any leader out there that is leading a team, it’s really easy to jump into the meat of what needs to be discussed, whether it’s a weekly team meeting or a business review or business planning or collaboration session, whatever that is. If you take a few minutes to connect with your people, it helps build that trust, which I know we’re going to talk about. Trust is such a big component of building those solid relationships. So I think, and I’ve had examples of that throughout my entire career. I’ve been very fortunate where I’ve worked for people that are connectors that are very good at it. So I’ve been able to emulate a lot of the things I’ve learned over time as well. But it’s important to highlight that it’s not just when you’re in front of a customer prospect. It’s internally too.

How do We Start Building Relationships?

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s do dive into it. I, I know, like we had a few questions drafted, but the one that I really actually want to start with for those that might be a little bit more intimidated. How do you even start a relationship? How do you start a relationship? Whether it’s with a prospect that could potentially invest in your product or services, or maybe even a new hire, how do you start? What do you think is the best way to actually go about starting a relationship or maybe initiating it?

Find Common Ground by Doing Your Homework

Kelly Mark:

I love that question. So the, I think starting it, if you’re talking about a prospect, or, you know, hopefully, a new or a new customer, someone from a business perspective externally without outside your organization. I think I think into that, the one thing to think about in today’s world is information is available at everyone’s fingertips. So you can Google anything. You can Google on a technology on, you know, a product on a service. Most information is out there. So your buyers or the people that you’re working with are savvier than they’ve ever been because they can quickly get access and gain access to whatever you have to offer. So I like to set the stage there because we have to think three steps ahead. We have to think about who we are meeting with. How are we leveraging, whether it’s social media for understanding the buyer, who are they, where did they go to school? What are their hobbies? Like, are there things in areas that you can learn about those individuals that may help with connecting with that? So, and not in an ingenuine way, I mean in a genuine way, maybe there’s some common ground or some area you see that you’ve got something in common with that individual.

So I think that’s one component. As far as the company itself outside of the buyer, it’s ensuring you’re doing your homework. It’s making sure you listen to their investor relations call if they’re a public company. Are you looking at their 10 K report, which is in basically the financial documentation? Are you looking at their website? Are you looking at who you’re connected to that may be working at this organization? It’s about doing your homework, and less is more when you’re relationship building. So in the world today, there are so many AI technologies where people are trying to touch hundreds of people in a very rapid way and hoping that it’s a numbers game and something comes back, then those things are all important. They’re very important in today’s business.

However, if you’re talking about the relationship, it’s, it’s really creating a smaller target list of people that you want to connect with, Right? And, and if you’re, if you’re honing in and doing that in a smaller bite-size way, you’re able to carve out more time to do the work that’s needed to really understand the client or potential client and who they work for. So sorry, and you know, going on and on, but it’s really important to make sure you’re one step ahead, right? Before you even get on that first phone call or first live meeting.

Make a Genuine Connection

Jenn DeWall:

I feel like that’s a step that’s often overlooked. Like sometimes the, you know, whether you’re hiring a new person to your team, you may not even do the due diligence to like, get to know them, look at their LinkedIn, understand like their background and what maybe experience they have, or even just scheduling that one-on-one like, tell me about you. But this also brings me probably my pet peeve that I’ve really seen over the last two years as LinkedIn obviously is a very, very popular way for buyers to connect with potential sellers. I just find that I feel like very few salespeople on LinkedIn actually understand how to start a relationship. Or I feel like there was a minute where everyone would write something that was like, “I really like the work that you’re doing- Love, John.” Not that they say, love, sorry. If they were just generic messages, like, oh, it seems like you’re doing really great work. And in my head, I’m like, first and foremost, do not think that because it felt like there was a trend where that was the kind of technique that everyone was doing. And I was like, this is no, no, do you know how many messages I get? Like, what are you even doing? How are you trying to connect with me? All you’re trying to do is sell me. And I’m just never going to respond.

But I do dislike that so much with LinkedIn because I feel like you have a lot of information at your yet. You’re not using it. You’re just looking at my name, my title. And then you’re trying to figure out if I can sell you something. So it just drives me bananas. So I love that you talked about doing your homework and actually get to know them at a personal level. Like you can give me really, I would call them like empty compliments, but that’s not going to make me want to engage with me or engage with you, nor is it going to make me want to trust you because I don’t even know. And you’re telling me that.

Kelly Mark:

Right. And I think it’s all about. I call it earning the right, earning the right for them to take time, to meet with you. Right. Earning the right. Right. You’ve got to earn the right with understanding them as a human, you know, a person earning the right to understand our company and maybe what’s happening in that company. And then, then you can, then, then you can confidently ask for time. Right. Which is very valuable for all of us. And I love the point you make because I get hundreds of messages just like that every day on LinkedIn. And the only ones that I will take a step back and go, okay, this is really good. Is if they’re touching, they did their homework on the organization. So they know something specific about Voss. If they know something or can connect with me on a personal level, they’ve done the research on me, or they did something really fun and creative. That’s another kind of component to kind of grab somebody’s attention. Maybe they sent me a video snippet instead of just an email. And the video snippet was them. I’ve had one person who did such a great job. They held up like the white cards with writing on it. It took to get the appointment with information on it. And it was really creative and unique and different. So you’ve got to, you’ve got to think things through in that, in that regard.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And not just treat me like, don’t just treat me like a transaction. I’m a human being. And maybe I’m just a little too, like sensitive to it because it really just drives me bananas. Anytime I see that someone because I’m a coach. So on LinkedIn, I’ll get a lot of the— I help coaches do X— and in my head, I’m like, great. But that doesn’t mean that I need your help. And so telling me that I do great work and you work with coaches. I know you say the exact same thing to everyone. So that’s also just, it’s like really bad pickup lines. How can we help people learn better lines to connect with people?

And I mean, I don’t even accept those requests anymore just because I feel like I don’t want them in my network. I don’t want them to also reach out to anyone else in my network if that’s the way that they go about it. But I know we’re kind of going on a tangent. So let’s yeah. One of the things that we’ve talked about is, so that’s kind of how to start a relationship, like doing your homework, making sure that you understand that. And this goes again, if you’re bringing someone onto your team, do your homework, get to know them, even down to having an open entry interview. That’s like, what, how are you motivated? How do you like to receive feedback? Like having those types of dialogues or if you’re going to actually try to sell someone, making sure that you actually get to know who you’re selling to, and that you’re not just doing the show-up and throw-up. But now we’re going to talk about how to build and sustain relationships or how to build sustainable relationships, said in a different way. And you have seven different ways that you recommend that if people were actually going to, you know, once they start that relationship, they do their homework. And then if they want to keep that going, the first place to start, but you had said is to build value. Tell me more about that.

Bringing Value to Build Relationships

Kelly Mark:

Well, I think this is a great segue into what we just talked about. We talked about doing our homework first, right before you even get in front of that prospect customer, et cetera. Once you have that, bring ideas to the table where you’re not expecting anything in return, right. Have you ever thought about implementing this technology to address the issue that I read about in an article about, you know, XYZ company?

So you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re bringing tidbits of information. Maybe you’re targeting as an example, a chief information officer, their job is to have information on all the technologies in the market and while they’re smarter than ever before, because they have access to the information, unless they have a pain point, they may not be in the know on some of the technologies. So maybe you’re just saying, Hey, did you know that this company just launched a brand new version of X software? I mean, you can bring value without really knowing exactly what, you know, what is going on in their business, but continuing to deliver something of substance, right. That’s happening, market trends, industry trends, things like that. So I think that’s a good way to start, right? To start that relationship off is bringing that value.

I love that. It doesn’t. It sounds like it doesn’t even necessarily have to be something so grandiose or really expensive in terms of resources. It could be, Hey, did you see this new article that’s in your industry that can be relevant to your organization? I just thought I would pass it on because I know this is something you’re working on. I love that approach. Like no one has sent me anything like that on LinkedIn. That’s like, oh God, I think that you would really appreciate having this. It’s like, no, try my app so you can buy it. I’m like, yeah. But so yeah, building value without expecting something in return, and it doesn’t have to be grandiose. I think it probably just has to be genuine and thoughtful. That’s where you’re doing your research.

Kelly Mark:

A hundred percent. Yes, absolutely. And it does work. It really does. I’ve had it worked time and time again.

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Active Listening is Key to Building Relationships

Jenn DeWall:

So then the second piece of building value without expecting something in return. And again, this is where it comes down to. It’s not always about your agenda. You’ve got to get into their agenda. And the second piece is all about you had said actively listen. So what are we looking for? What are we listening for?

Kelly Mark:

So for salespeople specifically, I think there’s a large percentage of us out there that have a hard time listening. It goes back to the show, right? So it’s very important, critically important to spend the first few meetings listening, data gathering, but listening. It’s the whole 80/20 rule that we used to talk about. Really, they should be doing 80% of the talking, and we should be doing 20% because if we don’t listen to what’s going on in their world, what their pain points are, what their strategic initiatives are.

We will have a really hard time bringing value with whatever we’d like to show or sell to that prospect. And so the listening is just, this is what I see most salespeople skipping over. They may think they’re a good listener, but they’re not really actively engaging and listening. So when someone feels heard, that’s one piece of it, but it’s listening enough to be able to understand exactly what’s going on in their world. And that one is just critically important.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. What are my pain points? And that’s where I also, you know, think about that. If you’re trying to build the relationship, you’re also talking at me sometimes when you don’t do your research with very generic pain points that actually may not be relevant to me. Like I may not need the thing that they’re selling, and they’re not even asking to see if that is my pain point. So again, it’s all about that, but I appreciate actively listening and the prescriptive advice of, you know, I want to keep that in my head that they should be doing 80% of the talking and I should only be doing 20%. So here’s the rule. If you are trying to influence someone, you’re trying to get to know them, build that relationship, practice the 80/20. I think that’s a great way to go about it because, yes, there are people like me that I love to talk to, but I might be missing a lot of valuable information if I don’t just zip my trap. Or just be asking very curious open-ended questions and then just allowing them to think about it and respond. You know, I think that leaders even forget about that too. They just are so busy. It’s that pushing, right? Like even leaders show up and throw up like push, push, push, and we don’t even recognize what’s going on. And then we’re not necessarily as adaptive leaders because we don’t. We’re making decisions off of or with limited information. So, actively listen. Yeah.

Kelly Mark:

Really listening. And I think in order to actively listen, you have to be present. And if you’re not present and you’re always thinking of what’s next, that’s when people start talking too much. That’s when people are just jumping ahead rather than being in the moment. So I think that’s another key buzzword to think about so that you can actively listen. So just another way of looking at that too.

Building Relationships Requires Transparency

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I love that. So your third recommendation is transparency. I thought you weren’t supposed to share it all right. Especially if you’re in sales, I thought you’re supposed to keep some things close to the vest to aid in your negotiating power.

Kelly Mark:

Think from that angle, you know, there’s a time in the, in a place for everything that makes sense. But I think, you know, when I look at my personal experience here at Voss, it’s, it’s, you know, we’re, we have our own proprietary technologies. So what we’re doing and what we’re providing is a way to tailor automated technologies that do different things for different people in different customers. And the good news is, is we can do almost anything. We’ve got open API APIs, which allow us to integrate into multiple technologies. The part where we have to really watch how we position ourselves as some things we can do right out of the box today. And some things may take development, and I’ve been in positions in my career where, you know, it’s easy for sales folks to go, yes, yes, yes. We can do it. Yes, yes, yes. Everything’s a yes. When in actuality, it’s not always a yes, right. There are things that have to be done in order to make that advance.

And so as important as it is to be able to provide these solutions right. To these prospects and customers, it’s really critical to be transparent because that’s another trust-building element to a relationship. Hey, you know what, we don’t, here’s what we do have today. Here’s what we could explore. But we’re, you know, we’re looking at, it might be six to seven months, you know, a timeline to be able to deliver that to you, but here’s what we’re committing to you. So I think it’s, it’s how you communicate in your delivery in that. But transparency is so important by just experiences with a recent partner that we’ve just worked on in the process of onboarding. And even if you even looked at the Zoom CEO, Eric, he does such an amazing job of building these relationships in the market with his customers. They have a huge security issue that happened about a year ago, but people were okay with it.

He was transparent about it. He addressed it. We talked about when the solution was coming out, and people were. People were totally comfortable and confident that it was going to get handled by the way he handled his customers. So I think it’s, it’s time for us to, to think a little bit differently, especially in sales, but for all of us to be a little bit more transparent.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s all important you know, at cross cabin September. And I just thought of this because one of the stories that we talked about, a few different stories and examples of companies owning their mistakes, right? So one of the notable ones that came about that we talked about was, you know, decades-old with Tylenol, Johnson and Johnson and people passing away and how they owned it. They took obviously a very quick and swift action and were able to remedy it without necessarily a big drop in sales. And it’s all because of how they manage that their transparency.

And even Netflix made price changes. And then that CEO was like, well, you know, apologize, like, Hey, I made a mistake. Let me make it up to you. I think transparency goes a long way. And it also helps because you’re hitting, you know, when I think about sales, I’m such a skeptic, right? I’m very, very skeptical. And it’s because of the fear of the oversell, the over promise, and under deliver. And I recently made a big investment while I made the investment probably in January, but still pretty recently. And when I was talking to the person in the sales rep before I was going to invest in this program, asking him all these questions, you know, he like made one like, Hey, this is what they’re going to do in the program. I asked specifics about it. He lied. But here’s like, here’s the piece is like, is it a lie? Or is it that your lack of communication or your lack of people having proper training and awareness around your, what you truly can do? Like, was that just a sign of like, there’s a complete operational breakdown, and this is why this individual presented that in that way? Or was he really just trying to get me to buy? And I did eventually buy, but I’ve now the trust is completely broken. Like I don’t even want to like very much work with that organization. It was a pretty hefty price tag. I invested in it, they over-promised and under-delivered, and he sold it one way than what it was actually like what it was. And like, I just can’t, I will never tell anyone to invest in that program, or I’ll say like, let me tell you what it really is.

Like, here’s a perfect example. So I’m in a speaking business, right? And in this program, they were like. We’ll give you leads to organizations that you can reach out to, to speak. And these would ask the leads. I’m like, oh, are you giving warm leads? Are you giving cold leads? And he’s like, oh, we’re giving warm leads. I’m like, wow, like that’s incredible. And a warm lead for those that might be unfamiliar or someone that could be a little bit closer to you at a relationship level. So then it might be easier to make that move forward. Whereas a cold lead is someone that you maybe have limited or no experience with. Then you’re just making an outreach. It’s cold. And so he told me they were all going to be warm, that they had this established partnership. They’re all cold; everything was a lie. And it’s just so frustrating because now the other people that I’ve even interfaced with that are a part of that organization. I have a reluctance to trust them because I just assume that like that one person that they’re all kind of, I don’t know that again. So over-promising and under-delivering like that, that’s what happens when you’re not transparent.

Kelly Mark:

I think that’s what happens. Yeah. When you’re not transparent, I think you bring up a couple of things that I think are really important. Number one, communication, that communication, you have that communication with the salesman, right? It’s ensuring too that, I mean, as a salesperson, we need, it’s our job to make sure that there’s no breakdown. And because what do you want for your customer? If you don’t want them to have a return on investment, then you shouldn’t be in sales. And that happens to your point. Now your ROI is affected by what you invested in. It’s the same in any business. It’s the same in anything we do in our personal lives. When we go buy a product or a service, or, you know. You’ve got to make sure that the expectations are clear, they’re in writing, and that the salesperson needs to make sure that they understand the ROI that’s expected from that provider. Right? What is the ROI that they’re expecting? Because at the end of the day, don’t you want somebody to go refer you to someone else, right. Especially big-ticket items. So it’s, you’ve got to look at the long game. You gotta look, you don’t look at the immediate wipper snap, I want the sales, and I’m just going to go sell, sell, sell. You got to look at the long game of how it’s going to impact your long-term reputation and business. But it’s really about ensuring that you’re on the same page with the ROI expected and that you have, you really want it, that stuff in writing too.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. That I will never, probably like do that again without getting everything in writing, and I think that, you know, in, in the line of men, people try to sell to speakers, coaches all the time, right as individual entrepreneurs. And I think there are a lot of people that are still a little newer to meet me being an entrepreneur. And so you are more to, I would say, misrepresentation of sales promises or ROI. I mean, I think my favorite kind of hook that lives in the coaching space is “six months to six figures.” Watch me give you, make you a million dollar X. And it’s so interesting because if you look at the statistics, only 6% of people that are entrepreneurs actually get to or get above a six-figure income.

And so then it’s just, there are so many misleading things because it’s all about the spin, but we’re not going. I mean, there are so many different ways I could go from pain. We could talk about this all day. And this is also about reminding you of what not to do, like not to sell something that has a misleading hook or that doesn’t, that won’t realistically actually get you the ROI that you’re saying that they will, because once you do that, I mean, I forget if this is a legitimate stat real-time, but I thought what I had heard is that an upset customer will go out and tell 15 of their friends how bad it was to do business with you. Whereas someone that’s happy, it will still probably only tell like one to two. So you make someone upset. They’re going to let everyone know. And obviously, with social media, you can do that so fast. So your reputation can be changed in a second. So again, like transparency is huge and maybe that’s because I think it all really comes down to the value of like integrity and how you do your business. Right?

Kelly Mark:

And you want testimonials, well, positive testimonials, right? Or case studies, if, depending on what you’re doing. But yeah, you got to look at that long game. That’s just, that’s so important.

Know Your Buyer’s Personality Type

Jenn DeWall:

So number four, understand the different types of buyers. Oh my gosh. I wish everyone understood this one. Why don’t they know? What does that mean?

Kelly Mark:

Well, I think it’s important to look at a couple of things. When you are in a position where you’re building a relationship, and you are looking to sell something, number one, it’s the personality type, right? And then number two, it’s what, what is their role within the organization? So we talk about personality type first. There are different types of personalities. There are the connectors like us, right? We’re talking about how to become more of a connector. But there’s also the analytical, you know, there’s the reserved, there, there are different types of personalities where you kind of have to maneuver and tweak the way you work with them based on their personality. You come in all rah-rah, ready to, you know, that’s my personality, I’m a rah-rah, you know, high energy. I can be too much for people. And that’s okay. It’s knowing what type of buyer you’re dealing with so that you can, at least, maybe you can’t become analytical per se, as an analytical person, but you can come down to, you know, to where they are. I shouldn’t say down. That sounds negative, but you can tweak the way you work with them based on the type of personality type they are.

Right? So maybe you are working with an analytical person, and you need to come to the table with more numbers- numbers, percentages, stats. Maybe you’re working with somebody that doesn’t give a lot of information. So you gotta, you know, slowly prod, you know, you’ve got to slowly work and massage that relationship because that might take a little longer to get something. So it’s just looking at the different types of personalities. The other side is who are you selling into? So for me, I’m buying an IT organization, or I’m selling into the IT organization. For the most part, there are other buyers and customer success and customer experience. And there’s also the procurement, right? The person that’s in charge of the money, the vendor manager, the person that wants to work on, I’m going to beat the salesperson up until I get the price I want.

And so you have to think, how do they work? So the procurement vendor manager is a great example because we are in conflict. I’m trying to sell services, and they’re trying to save the company money. So how do you create a win-win right? How do you come in with a win-win mindset? How do you look at getting transparent with what do you need to do to be successful in your role? I want to know because there may be a creative way that we can work together. Maybe we stagger the way you pay. Maybe we focus on a more cost-effective solution for the first 12 months. I mean, there are different ways to learn about the different roles so that you can create a win-win because maybe it’s doing that for that buyer, but in the long run, you know, the ROI is going to be so great. They’re going to be happy in the long run anyway. But it’s understanding who they are because it’s easy to butt heads. This is the price. This is what you’re gonna do. No, that might not be the way you can work with that specific organization. So just thinking about the actual buyers that we’re in front of as well.

Jenn DeWall:

You know, I think that’s a valuable insight again, I think maybe it’s just that people don’t know, maybe it’s that they, you know, have so much ego that they’re like, well, whatever I’m saying is the best anyways. So then they don’t even think about the other person, but I do think people will oftentimes really forget that important piece and leaders to write for bringing it into what it truly is, is adaptive leadership. If you want to get someone to do something on your team, you don’t get to lead all of them the same, just like you can’t sell to every buyer in the same way. I had a friend that he is really successful in sales. And one of the things that he said, and sorry if I’m offending at the engineers, but he had said, if you’re selling to a group of engineers, you’re going to need an hour. If you’re selling to anyone else, you’ll need 15 minutes. And really, his point in saying that is we have different personality types. So we process information in different ways. We might need more time. We might need less time. I’m more impulsive. So I probably will need less time. My husband is an engineer, and he typically needs more time to really think through and research that. But so many people sometimes look at that as a barrier. Oh my gosh, there are two different, oh my gosh. Is it that? No, it’s preparation. Just think about what, think about it from their perspective, knowing that we could continue to go on. So yeah. Understanding your type of buyer, the next piece that you had said.

Building Trust is Key to Building Relationships

Jenn DeWall:

So number five is to build trust. And I love talking about trust. Here’s a quick plug next month for Crestcom, our webinar, complimentary webinars, all about building trust. So please join us at the end of September. But tell me, Kelly, like, how do you even, like, what are the ways that we can build trust? And also, what are the ways that we can break it?

Kelly Mark:

I think I think every step that we have talked about leads up to step five, right? The building value without expecting something in return, but active listening, that’s transparency that understanding the different buyers and connecting with them that those are all baby steps and key steps in order to build trust. I think to add to that, it’s, you know, it’s delivering, right? It’s everything that you said. All of the commitments that you’ve made that you’re pulling through that you’re following up. I think you know, ensuring that your acting, your actions are based on everything that you’ve committed to. So I think that’s really important. I think communication is also a really big one. It’s easy to be busy. We’re all multi-tasking. We’re all doing a million things at once, but being proactive and Hey, I’m going to deliver this proposal to you on this date. How about, you know, working together on this demo for this timeline. If you feel like you’re gonna miss something, communicate,  just following through and over committing or not over committing over-communicating in some sense of the word you don’t want to communicate just to communicate, but if you have something to say, it’s, it’s really important to pull that through, especially with action items and owning the relationship, taking that ownership.

So I think communication, I think, you know, exceeding expectations and making sure that you’re following through on your commitments. I think what breaks trust is the opposite of that, right? It’s saying you’re going to do something by a certain date, missing that date. Number one, you’re missing it. Number two, you’re missing it and maybe not even communicating about it proactively. I think, you know, selling something or providing something to someone where it doesn’t give the results that they were expecting, that’s going to break trust.

Jenn DeWall:

So it’s really, that’s what all these steps are. It’s just so important so that the communication is open and that you are continuing to do what you say you’re going to do. So it’s not only what you say. It’s your actions behind that. I like that example of what you say because I think that initially, there’s a certain level of trust that’s established. And I think about the example that’s coming to mind is we had to have some landscaping done, some trees trimmed. And when the individual came to give the assessment, you know, it was a great conversation. I really enjoyed him. He seemed super knowledgeable. It was fun to learn about the vegetation in my yard. Fast forward to like me being so excited. We found all this common ground and then fast forward to missed- like they just, the first one, they rescheduled the service and sad for X, Y, and Z reason.

They couldn’t do it. The next one, they never even called me and said they were going to miss it. So then I had to call them, and then I did give them an ultimatum because it was six weeks. And I’m like, if you can’t do this tomorrow, I’m going to go with someone else. And this is what floored me is that the CEO actually messaged me and said. We don’t operate like that. Like, you can find another person. And I was like, that’s totally fine. But if you want to say that, then I’m also going to assume that you never had an intent or ability to actually meet your expectations. You couldn’t own it. You couldn’t communicate with me. And I had to follow up and say, Hey, you were supposed to be here at eight, and you’re not here. Oh, he just forgot to tell me that you weren’t coming.

But I was just so taken aback by noticing that the CEO’s approach I’m like right now, I think people will give a lot of empathy to small business owners knowing that staffing is hard. But if you don’t own it, it’s really hard for me to work with that. And that’s when, when I have to invest my time, that’s when I start to get frustrated. But I’m glad that to talk about that because now it’s broken. And of course, I went right to the Yelp page and was like, let me tell you about the awful experience. I had, I never want anyone to experience this. And I’m actually a good writer. And so you don’t want like, no, I shouldn’t be that. But it’s, we don’t want that. And I, right. Speaking of all my pain points in terms of sales, but this is why trust is so important.

Proactive Communication is Key to Building Trust

Kelly Mark:

And even if you can’t meet something, that is where it comes back to transparency and ownership on it, and communicate mistakes are going to happen, right. Mistakes. Then it’s inevitable the key there. And I always like using this analogy. It’s like a bank account. You want to be in the positive. You want the deposits to continue, right? When you get into the negative, that means you’ve been making mistake after mistake, and you lost the trust. You want to continue to provide value and be good with your word and over-deliver and set the right expectations, and communicate. And that all builds as positive love in your account. But it is, you know, if you have a lot built up one, mistake’s going to bring it down, but it’s not going to bring in the negatives. So I love using that because it’s all about how much you’re contributing and giving. And I think saying that we never make mistakes is unrealistic. Right? That’s going to happen. How do you handle it?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. So what do you do? Like how can you leverage the relationship or continue to move forward once that trust has been established? So we talked about, you know, essentially when you have that point of trust, you likely have a deeper relationship with that person. Maybe, you know, more personal things about them. Maybe you just feel like they’re more dependable, but what can you do once the trust and value have been built to the customer or, you know, to your employees? Yeah. I think this is once that is established. This is really critical because this is where some salespeople disappear, they built trust, they’ve sold their stuff. And then where are they? They’re MIA, right? Or not? They’re barely connecting and communicating with maybe the same customer as an example.

Building Relationships with a Personal Touch

Kelly Mark:

This is where you have to continue to show up, right? This is where we go back to step one, bringing value without expecting anything in return, right. You’re continuing to engage. And hopefully, when you build trust, and you have what you finally have this customer, the goal and the hope is that not only do you develop your relationship into a stronger relationship, but you know, the account and the company more, right? So then you can dig in and look at other parts of their business, but are there other areas of value you can bring, maybe without a sale, but maybe they’re just ideas. So continuing down that path is very important, bringing value, staying engaged, open communication, quarterly business reviews, where you talk about the trends of what they’re doing in their business. And it’s an open discussion of what’s working and what’s not working.

What do we need to do differently and more of and better? So it’s, it’s continuing down that journey. And I think, I think, you know, it’s important to ensure that you’ve got folks that are doing that, right? But the sales, you know, the sales strategy around, around continuing to bring that value. And then there are other little things that you’ve been doing. I mean, you stay connected through LinkedIn. You know, from there, hopefully, you can ask for referrals. But one thing that I really like doing is no. Some people do client gifts. I know something, you know, some accounts and companies in the market are very strict on gift-giving. But one thing that I think that’s gone away because of technology, right? We’ve got an email, we’ve got texting, but a lot of things that we can do, but personal cards, writing a personal card and sending it in the mail, is such, it’s been such a game-changer for me personally, in my business. I’ve had VPs reach out to me to say I haven’t received a card in the mail in 10 years. And thank you. Thank you. And it could be just thank you for your business. It could be on a personal topic that could be, Hey, I’ve got the idea. Call me. It doesn’t have to be a substantial message, but personal cards are, I think at least in my business, they’ve been a game-changer.

Jenn DeWall:

You know, I love that you bring that up because that is a really important piece. A lot of people do operate on autopilot once the sale is made or the set and forget. And you know, now we’ve made this, and they forget about keeping that relationship going that even if they might be done using your services, maybe it was a one-time thing that you have no idea who they could connect you with or who else you could potentially provide value for.

And I love the idea of even just writing someone a message. That’s just saying a handwritten card. Like, Hey, I just wanted to check-in. I hope that you’re well. I noticed this, and you’re not trying to sell anything. Or maybe you’re then also providing value by sharing an insight that they haven’t realized. But I like the check-in when there’s nothing to gain from it. It’s just truly to say, like, how are you? I think that that’s beautiful. And I’m just trying to think if I ever had that. I don’t know if I’ve ever had that. Yep. I would appreciate that a lot.

Kelly Mark:

Yeah. It’s great. It’s and I, I mean, I know I love receiving parts too, so it’s, you know, it’s a reciprocated thing I love, I love sending them, and I love receiving them, and it’s definitely a game-changer in the business world, in today’s environment.

Jenn DeWall:

Kelly, thank you so much for the conversation today. Just so many great insights and perspectives. I mean, again, I want to remind myself 80% of someone else should do 80% of the talking. I do 20% of the listening. Like there are so many things that I want to really like walk away and do differently, but really at that, you know, the one other thing I wish everyone would remember is just being, you know, taking ownership, being transparent, and then doing your research, please, as a result of listening to this, do not send me another LinkedIn request selling me something that I’ve no desire to buy or at least try to get to know me and make a connection. I don’t know, drop where I went to school. But Kelly, thank you so much for all the tips, techniques, and insights that you’ve shared with us. It’s been a great conversation. And just out of curiosity, how can people get in touch with you? How can they connect with you? Maybe they’ve got questions offline. Where can they go?

Where to Find Kelly

Kelly Mark:

The best place to go would be LinkedIn. Cause we’ve been talking about LinkedIn today, and I’m just under Kelly Mark. So you can find me there. That’s the best way to get ahold of me. I’m on other social media outlets, but I’m probably on LinkedIn the most. And thank you so much for having this conversation. I think it’s so needed. It’s so important. And going back full circle to when we started this conversation, you know, with the pandemic, people are yearning for connection. They really are. And I think some of these tips are a great way to get there.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Connect with people and see them build the human connection. Hopefully, that’s one thing we can all take away, too! Thank you so much, Kelly.

Kelly Mark:

Thank you, Jenn. Thanks so much.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, where Kelly and I talked about building relationships. I hope that you walked away with some great insights and techniques or tips that you can implement to build better relationships. If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming surface. If you want to connect with Kelly, you can connect with her on LinkedIn. You can find her at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymark/, and as a reminder, she works for Voss Solutions. I’m sure that you could reach out to her with any of your relationship-building challenges or even just how to get your foot in the door in this pandemic world. Thank you so much for listening today until next time.

 

The post Building Relationships for Sales Success with Kelly Mark appeared first on Crestcom International.

Minisode: 5 Tips for Hybrid Leaders

Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we are going to talk about hybrid leaders and managing hybrid teams. Yes! A Minisode devoted to the challenge and change that many of us are making in leadership today. Why does this matter? What’s going on right now? We know as a result of COVID, many of us have shifted to either a fully remote or a hybrid environment.

And I just want to share a few stats to support why we want to continue to talk about this. So we can be the best leaders that we can be. Microsoft 2021 Work Trend Index survey found that 73% of the 30,000 people surveyed across 31 countries want the option of flexible remote work to continue, which means that you likely will have a hybrid, which is a blend between maybe a fully remote, partially remote, partially in person or fully in person. And that people are still craving that one-on-one time. As a matter of fact, from that same Microsoft survey, they found that 65% of workers crave more in-person time with colleagues, which means that the future workplace will be hybrid. It’s going to be that mix of fully remote William person and blended schedules, which means that today’s hybrid leaders must rethink their approach to managing successful teams for exceptional results.

How are Hybrid Leaders Different?

So what is a hybrid team and how are hybrid leaders different? Here’s the definition from Owl Labs. A hybrid team is a flexible work structure where some employees work remotely, and other team members work from a central location or office. Hybrid team structures allow employees to decide whether they prefer an office environment or working from anywhere remotely.

And why do employees, why do they prefer remote? Well, it gives them increased flexibility. They can choose how they’re living their life, how they’re balancing and integrating their life and work responsibilities. It also can create a better environment for them to focus. For some individuals, a busy office with maybe a cubicle setting could be very loud, and it could be distracting. And it also could leave them open to a lot of people, maybe saying, Hey got a minute. And then that distracts them from being able to be as productive as they can be. So focus is another reason they want it. Right in with it is then to be more productive. When we can focus, we can clearly then give ourselves the time and attention to focus on a given task.

So we are more productive, and we’re again not juggling those water cooler conversations that we can get pulled into, which of course, are enjoyable. But sometimes, we’ve got a lot on our plate that actually needs to be addressed. And then the fourth reason employees still prefer remote is for the work-life integration. People want to figure out, or I should say, people, are no longer looking at how can I live to work? That’s not what the younger generations want. They want the opportunity to figure out how they can create a type of balance or the new buzzword “work-life integration.” How can I maybe balance an appointment, my child, or after-school care along with my job? That’s just a brief example or a few brief examples. And why does this matter? Well, why do we need to care?

So those are four reasons why people want remote, but here’s the thing you want to be really cautious before encouraging or demanding all employees return to work. Because according to a recent McKinsey study, they found that 30% of employees say that they are likely to switch jobs. If they had to return to full on-site work, meaning that they do not want to go into the office full time again. So you might want to check in with your top performers and make sure before you make this drastic change to go back all in the office if you’re coming from fully remote that you’re not at risk of losing some of your top talents. So what do you need to be aware of as a leader?

Jenn’s 5 Tips for Hybrid Leaders

I want to talk about a hybrid leader’s role in hybrid teams. There are five things as a leader that you need to consider to make sure that you’re doing your best at managing this new type of leadership of the hybrid worker, or if you will, the blended employee, you need to focus on five things, building collaboration and connection, creating structure, setting, clear expectations, promoting equity and inclusion, and then monitoring burnout.

Build Collaboration and Connection

So what does it mean to build collaboration and connection? Obviously, now that we are not necessarily on the opposite at the same time, it can be a challenge for hybrid leaders to build a cohesive team. One where people feel like they see one another, they know who to go to. And as a matter of fact, the challenges with building connection and collaboration are many. You might have the challenge of having different work schedules or trying to onboard and integrate new employees, or maybe your challenges are that your organization doesn’t have an onboarding process. And so, if you’re trying to bring them in, in a remote setting, without a clear structure for them to follow, they’re not necessarily engaging with the organization or the team in a way that you would hope. Another challenge that leaders will have with building connection and collaboration in this hybrid world is visibility. You may not necessarily see every single person on your team, which means it’s that much more important for you to be intentional about scheduling that quality time.

Then, of course, communication is a challenge. You might say something in a live meeting that someone that was not present or that’s in a virtual role may not have been privy to and vice versa. And then, of course, organizational silos are that much greater. So here’s what you can do to build connection and collaboration in your workforce in a hybrid team, build a team schedule, make sure that everyone is aware of when people’s starting and ending times are, and they also have people update their calendars. This will ensure that people check in with individuals or they know the best times to get in contact with them. The second is to schedule team coffee or lunch breaks, give people the opportunity to replicate that water cooler conversation that typically happens in live settings, and also consider creating team-only connection time. And if you’re also onboarding a new employee and you want them to get greater exposure into the culture of the organization, I would also maybe consider adding in not only team-only connection time but networking groups, where you join up with other departments. This gives your new hires the opportunity to meet other people that they wouldn’t typically meet, especially if they’re fully remote.

Another way to create and build connections and collaboration in group brainstorming sessions is to invite everyone into a meeting and allow them the opportunity to share their feedback. Another way you can do this is to build water cooler time into your team meetings. Instead of having a 60-minute meeting that just covers a variety of agenda events, consider adding five to ten minutes where you mandatory required people to have their camera on so they can talk, connect, get to know one another, check in with how they’re doing, and then if they want to take their cameras off, of course, they can. Now those are just a few tips and techniques for building connection and collaboration.

Create Structure

The second thing the hybrid leader needs to pay attention to in a hybrid work environment is structure. And the challenges that you might run into are more than a few. You might run into people finding that there are unclear expectations, there’s poor communication, uncertainty about what communication tools to use and when. Or maybe your staff is on different schedules or time zones. So the tip for creating structure within your team is to identify the core or peak hours. Now, these are the hours that you might find that everyone overlaps. So these might be the best times for team meetings or just team-building opportunities. Another way to create structure is to determine and create communication norms. This also includes the response time. So you might think about email and say, we can send emails. I want you to check emails, but only during these certain hours. And then also, I expect you to reply to emails within 24 hours. Even if it’s just simply, Hey, I can’t answer that right now, but I will get back to you by the end of the week. In addition, set clear expectations of what communication modality to use and when, which means, when do you want your team to text or to use instant messenger, or to use a slack channel?

Another way to create structure is to identify common “what if” scenarios think about the problems that your team might face these problems, especially if there’s something that’s been solved or they’re repeated because they’re common, it’s helpful to create a guide or resource if you will, for what people can do or what should they, what they should expect to do if they encounter this situation. That will allow your employee to continue to follow along in their job instead of creating a bottleneck in the process where they have to stop and ask for help. And then another way to create structure is to also provide adequate levels of decision-making authority. Your employees want this, and you may, at a subconscious level, not be realizing that you’re de-motivating your employees or creating more inefficiency by not giving them the appropriate levels of authority. So, you can build structure by allowing them to understand and take ownership over a given project or a task.

Set Clear Expectations

The third thing that leadership or leaders need to pay attention to in managing hybrid teams is setting clear expectations. Now, the challenges that you might run into in setting clear expectations is that maybe you’re not a strong communicator, or maybe you only communicate something one time, and you assume that everyone got it. Now, that is not the case. And at Crestcom, one of the best practices that we say is to communicate everything seven different ways, seven different times. This ensures that depending on the learning style, what else is going on, that your message is being heard. Another challenge that you might bump up against setting clear expectations is maybe creating a goal, strategy, task, or to-do list that’s too broad or ambiguous, or open-ended where people aren’t sure what’s expected of them, what success looks like, or who to even turn to, or who owns what, which leads into unclear role responsibility.

You need to make sure on your team, especially in a hybrid environment, that people understand what is expected of their role, what projects, strategies, responsibilities they own. Otherwise, they may not have that opportunity to just pop over to someone and say, Hey, are you on top of this? Or it might just create a stall in your process. So our tips for creating and setting clear expectations. First, identify core and goals that can be simple and easily understood. Try to create goals that can be stated in two sentences or less that make sure that people understand what the main priorities are. The more complicated the goal, the more room there is for error and miscommunication. The second piece is to reinforce your goals and expectations often. Leaders sometimes take the approach where they set a goal and then they don’t follow up, which not only tells your employees that that goal is not, that isn’t that important, but it also could create an opportunity where you’re not addressing challenges.

When we build in milestones or check-in opportunities to reinforce the goals and expectations, then we create feedback loops. It allows us to be more flexible and agile to address any challenges. And then also make sure that our staff and team and employees understand what’s important. And when you’re setting clear expectations, be sure to state the “why.” people want to understand why you want them to do something, not just go and do this task. When we understand the why that can create meaning, which we know Google has surveyed, it, Microsoft has surveyed it. And countless other organizations have found that one of the predictors of strong team performance is understanding the why, and essentially having meaningful work, or work with impact when you provide the why people can connect, or you can help to facilitate the connection of why you need them.

Another way to set clear expectations is to make sure that you’re holding your employees accountable. This means having tough conversations, having one-on-ones building in opportunities and deadlines to reconnect, to make sure that something is on task too often. We don’t hold others accountable. And when they don’t do what we need them to do, we become frustrated. When in actuality, have we just set the expectations appropriately and followed up with them, we would have found a different result. And last, but certainly not least. And this goes with our last point, make sure that you’re also setting norms and guidelines, make sure that your team understands appropriate rules, such as how to communicate, how to resolve conflict, and who owns what; this will help make sure that you’re as efficient as possible.

Practice Equity and Inclusion

The fourth thing that every leader of a hybrid team needs to do is to also promote equity and inclusion. Now, this is one of the biggest challenges in a hybrid environment because you’re not necessarily going to be able to access or see every single individual every week. It requires you to be intentional, to carve out that time. And here’s an interesting consideration. Careful consideration of equity and inclusion is equally, if not more important, in a hybrid workspace, as visibility and access to leadership can play a large role in advancing our careers. Employees need to be visible to managers to access the resources that they need for work and to stay informed. This needs to be top of mind, but what are the challenges?

Well, the challenges that you’ll bump into when promoting equity and inclusion are knowledge silos, finding out the different people in different locations have access to different information. Or there might be different distractions depending on where you work, or someone might be wearing multiple roles. So here are our tips to promote equity and inclusion in a hybrid workplace. Make sure that you’re scheduling one-on-ones. Practice vulnerability and curiosity. Again, remember you don’t just want to assume what’s going on with an employee. You want to leverage open-ended questions and lead with curiosity.

Another way to promote equity and inclusion is to reduce meeting times to allow for work-life integration. You might have one employee that maybe doesn’t have a lot of meetings, or maybe they’re in the office. And then another employee that is still teaching their child from home, or maybe they’re managing a different responsibility. If you want to truly create an inclusive environment, make sure that you’re setting your meeting times in a way that everyone can thrive. One recommendation is to shorten your meetings from, let’s say, 60 minutes to 50 minutes to allow people that might have different roles at home, such as being a mom, being a teacher, or a parent, give them an extra five to ten minutes to maybe check-in or go to the bathroom or eat because many of us are used to, especially in the zoom setting, going back to back to back. And that’s not realistic when we’re maybe working in a more remote environment with those additional roles. So make sure that you’re reducing meeting times to allow for that work-life integration.

Again, if it’s a 60-minute meeting, maybe cut it short at 55 or 50 minutes. If it’s a 30-minute meeting, try and see if you can get it to 25. Another way to promote equity and inclusion is to encourage all voices to be heard. Now in a virtual platform, it’s easy to stay silent. That will require you as a leader to directly call on people, to ask for their feedback, and make sure that if you’re starting to also have any important conversations, either in a virtual platform or in a live setting, try to see if you can make it and move it online. This way, you can offer up and invite everyone to attend so they can be privy and they don’t miss out on this valuable information. And last but certainly not least, you want to promote equity and inclusion, be sure to identify mentoring and development opportunities for people to grow and educate your team on personality, cultural and style differences. This will help us all work better together, especially as we may be communicating over different modalities.

Monitor Employee Burnout

Now, the last thing that a leader needs to consider in managing a hybrid team is how you are going to monitor burnout when we’re face-to-face. It can be really easy to see some of those may be nonverbal cues that can indicate to us that someone is overly stressed, frustrated, or burned out. And it can be difficult to identify that in a virtual setting. So what you need to consider then is your lack of visibility, or maybe you work in a workaholic culture. What are you going to do to monitor burnout? Because it’s that much more challenging, especially when we find it more difficult to set boundaries when we are working from home to actually stay engaged and protect our time.

So here are our tips for monitoring burnout. Make sure that you’re talking about it. A good leader needs to talk about mental health. It’s top of mind, and that should be one of the primary responsibilities and priorities of your team. So talk about burnout, educate your team on what it is, the signs of burnout, and encourage them to ask for help.

Another thing you can do to monitor burnout is to embrace flexibility. If employees are coming to you because they feel burnt out, try to see if there’s an opportunity to maybe delegate or shift around deadlines to give them a little bit more breathing room and encourage your team to build in mental health breaks. These might be breaks that happen throughout the day, ten minutes in the morning, ten minutes in the afternoon, five minutes here or there, but these are just opportunities for them to unplug, reset, and focus on a different task. The bonus is that you can pull them out of that stressful, maybe project that they’re working on. And when they give themselves that break, they can relax and rest their mind and hopefully come back to it with a fresh perspective or new energy.

Another way to monitor burnout is to always be the example. You can’t expect your team not to become workaholics. If you are a workaholic, you are the one that’s setting the example for your team. So if they notice that you’re in at 7:00 AM and you don’t leave until 7:00 PM, and then you check your emails at all hours of the weekends, you are subconsciously setting that expectation that that’s what you want them to do as well, which when they jump on that schedule might create burnout. So it’s so important for you to be the model, not only in the structure or how you structure your day, but then also making sure that you’re taking your PTO or your vacation time, making sure that you’re also taking breaks and making sure that you’re continuing to talk about mental health.

And last but certainly not least, make sure that you’re encouraging your team to use their vacation times, allow time for special projects. This gives people the opportunity to switch gears, use a different part of the brain, maybe leverage their passion and focus on something else that can fill them up with joy, new perspective, and curiosity. And then last, encourage time for play. Give people the opportunity to have fun at work. And this is especially important for your younger generations, but I would argue that everyone wants to enjoy work given that we spend the majority of our time there.

Jenn DeWall:

Now those are our tips for what you can do as a hybrid leaders to be successful. If you know someone that is a hybrid leader that could benefit from this episode, please share it with them. And, of course, if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to give us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform.

 

 

About Crestcom:

Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business, and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the own a franchise page of our website at crestcom.com.

The post Minisode: 5 Tips for Hybrid Leaders with Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, host Jenn DeWall welcomes leadership expert and author Ashley Goodall to discuss the problem with change! For decades, “disruption” and “change” have been regarded as crucial to business growth and success. In his latest book, The Problem with Change: And the Essential Nature of Human Performance, Ashley Goodall argues that what has become the accepted norm is actually quite harmful.

Whether it’s a merger, new software or a new office layout, change has become the central goal for many leaders, who pursue it with abandon. Goodall believes that this constant churn of change leads to what he calls “life in the blender”—a perpetual cycle of upheaval, uncertainty, and unease. Goodall believes that this is not only bad for human performance, it’s bad for business! 

Meet Ashley Goodall – Author, Leadership Expert, Executive

Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside, most recently as an executive at Cisco. He is the co-author of Nine Lies About Work, which was selected as the best management book of 2019 by Strategy + Business and as one of Amazon’s best business and leadership books of 2019. Prior to Cisco, he spent fourteen years at Deloitte as a consultant and as the Chief Learning Officer for Leadership and Professional development. 

His new book, The Problem with Change, was released on May 7, 2024. In it, Goodall reveals how the ongoing turmoil of corporate life creates uncertainty, a lack of control, a sense of not belonging and a loss of meaning. He argues that the recent increases in employee activism and quiet quitting and the record-low levels of engagement at work are, in fact, symptoms of these problems with change.

Goodall draws on extensive research into human psychology and decades of experience leading HR teams to encourage leaders to look beyond wellness and corporate cheerleading and instead focus on the environment they create at work every day. He argues that humans actually need stability to perform at their best. In his book, he explores how this can be found in how we lead, how we talk, and how we value teams, our rituals, and predictability.

As Goodall says, “The ultimate job of leadership is not disruption, and it is not to create change; it is to create a platform for human contribution, to create the conditions in which people can do the best work of their lives.”

The Difference Between Change and Improvement

As the episode opens, Jenn asks Ashley how he would like to begin their discussion, and he says he would like to begin by asking one question: 

“I think one really interesting way into the conversation is to say, is there a difference between change and improvement? Oh, and if, if listeners say, no, there’s no difference, then they should probably just stop listening right now because I’m about to argue there’s a big, big difference between change and improvement. 

Change means different, improvement means better, and we can distinguish that. So then you go, well, where does improvement come from? Where does improvement come from in an organization? 

And it’s hard to persuade yourself that if most of the people in an organization are struggling to understand what the mission is, or where they fit in, or what team they’re a part of, it’s hard to imagine that much improvement is actually gonna come from them. 

Now, if our model of an organization is improvement, and that is something that’s thought up by senior leadership, and sort of cascades gloriously down through the organization. And everybody’s just waiting on a Monday morning to be told what great improvements they’ll make. Then okay, you’re in a slightly different world. 

But, if you imagine that the limitation on how good a company is, is how well its people are able to do, which I think is not unreasonable. Then you finish up saying to yourself, well, the ability of the folks on the front line to do their best work every day is a ceiling on how good the company is. 

And then you ask yourself, well, what might, what might get in the way of all of that? And you sort of wander into the psychological challenges that an environment of constant change and disruption visits on people.”

The Power Paradox

Later in the episode, Ashley Goodall explains that one of the problems with change is that leaders are unaware of what it is like on the front lines of their organizations on a daily basis. He explains: 

“Some of the reasons for that is information really doesn’t travel up a power vacuum very happily. If you are the person who sends the email to the senior leader saying, Hey, this is actually not landing the way you imagined it would, then I think most of us would agree you can’t do that too many times before everybody thinks you’re crazy or looking for a different job. 

I think it’s true that leaders certainly in organizations of any size live in a different world from their employees if you think about the amount of money that heads to the C-suite in compensation and stock grants and you think about the lifestyles that support. Whether that is sort of zooming around the world doing corporate stuff or just being in a different sort of tax bracket by a lot than anyone you know, than the more junior employees. And I think it takes a lot of empathy to reach across those sorts of gaps in sort of material circumstances. 

And then, if we want to go even further, there’s some very interesting research that’s been done in terms of what happens to somebody psychologically when you put them in charge, and they become just as alarming, they become slightly more psychopathic. They become a little more evil to their fellow humans. 

And this is not somebody going, oh, when we sat down to choose all the leaders, we actually chose the psychopaths. That’s not what happens. We chose good people who were good at their jobs. Anointing them as leaders turned them into people who, in the most famous experiment, helped themselves to more than their fair share of cookies on the plate and left crumbs all over the table for somebody else to clean up. 

Dacher Keltner is the psychologist who did the experiment. And it’s a beautiful experiment because we can all imagine being in the conference room and there’s one cookie left on the plate, and everyone’s sitting there going, well, in human society, it would be rude to help myself to the cookie. 

And while we’re all thinking that the leader grabs the cookie, has a bite, leaves crumbs everywhere because they’re the leader and they, they, their brain has been changed by a whole bunch of people saying, you are above us in some way. 

So you add all of this up, and you go, well, listen, different financial world. It is very hard to tell a leader what’s going on. And that’s not a criticism of the leaders themselves; it’s just the way that information travels in organizations and the power paradox.

And all of a sudden, you’ve got a bunch of leaders who really are not very much in touch with the results of the decisions they make. And so when they turn around and go, you know what, let’s do a reorg! Looks good. Consultants, by the way, think it’s great. And I love the consultants because they tell me how great I am, and they let me eat the last cookie. 

So we’ll have the consultants come in. The consultants think that although we’d centralized last year, this year, we should decentralize because we’ll be more efficient that way. And goodness, that is why we centralized in the first place. So we’ll do the decentralization, and we’ll do a reorg and it’ll be lovely and innovation and change and disruption. 

And then they are confused when the people on the front lines go, would you leave it alone? I’m just trying to do my job. And it’s impossible to do it when everything is in flux the whole time.”

What Problem Are You Solving For? 

Later, Jenn asks what leaders can do to overcome the Power Paradox and better understand what is happening on the front lines of their organizations. Ashley explains that the real irony of the situation is that leaders are driving change, driving disruption, but what is missing is an understanding of what problem they are actually trying to solve. 

He explains that while leaders feel a sense of urgency to charge forward, the front-line employees are usually left confused about how they can help. The real problems go unexamined, but leaders start making changes just the same. 

He advises getting more comfortable talking about problems throughout the organization. Leaders can ask:

• What are some of the challenges confronting us? 
• Can you help us get detailed on what exactly we could do differently? 
• Where are some of the root causes of all of these things?

He advises, “If you are a leader and you share a problem, you are giving permission for other people to tell you what doesn’t work from their perspective, too. And you’ll get much, much smarter organizationally about what to aim at.”

Remember the Human Element of Change

At the heart of Ashley Goodall’s message is for leaders to remember that people are already dealing with unprecedented amounts of change. He explains: 

“I interviewed a bunch of people for the book, and somebody said very poignantly, when people arrive at the office, they have already survived a lot of change that day because they’re living in a world which, you know, for the last four or five year– and then arguably for many years before that– is in tumult, wherever you look. 

And you know, we have a little habit at work of saying, well, if we didn’t create change, the sum total of change in our people’s lives would be zero. And somebody said to me, it doesn’t work like that. What happens at work is the 99th change that they have to live through. If we instigate a change or the hundredth change or the hundred first change but people have a lot to deal with in their lives, it’s really hard. We should probably not arbitrarily and carelessly add to the pile.”

Where to Find More From Ashley Goodall

Be sure to listen to the full episode to get more insights and advice about successful change management strategies! 

Then, to find more from Ashley Goodall:

• Buy his book: The Problem With Change 
• Connect on LinkedIn

Does Your Team Need Help Managing Change? 

If your team struggles with constant change and disruption, Crestcom can help! Contact us today to schedule a free 2-hour leadership workshop for your whole team! Visit crestcom.com/freeworkshop to find out more!

The post The Problem with Change in the Workplace with Ashley Goodall appeared first on Crestcom International.

Building Psychological Safety and Resilience in Teams with Executive Coach, Brad Reed

Jenn DeWall:

It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Brad Reed to talk about building resilience in creating psychological safety on your team. Brad is an Executive Wellness and Performance Coach, who after spending years suffering from mental health issues and severe chronic pain, healed himself, changed his life, and moved to Asia. He is currently an executive coach and is the founder of Repurpose You, a coaching and training business that centers around optimizing the happiness wellbeing mindset and EQ for leaders and professionals, which helps to improve team dynamics and psychological safety and optimize individual and organizational performance. I hope you enjoy our conversation where we discuss the foundation of creating psychological safety, as well as what tips and techniques you can do as a leader to make sure that your environment is a place where all feel comfortable to thrive!

Meet Brad Reed, Executive Coach

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with Brad Reed. Now you may not know him, but Brad is an Executive Wellness and Performance Coach, and he’s located in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. So this is probably a very different times difference or time zone change for both of us as it’s 7:00 AM for me here in Denver; what did you say it was, Brad? It’s 8:00 PM for you today. Yeah, but we make it work. Right. That’s the great thing about this. You know, we, no matter where you are located, leadership is the thing that bonds us. It’s the experience. And it’s a challenge that many of us can relate to, and it does truly transcend cultural borders. So Brad, welcome to the show. Could you go ahead and just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Brad Reed:

Thank you so much, Jenn. I think it’s a real pleasure to be here, and thank you for the introduction. That was a very kind little bit about me. If I can make it short- again, I’m an Executive Wellness and Performance Coach, and I’m based in Ho Chi Minh City, although I do have clients globally that I see one-on-one. I founded a business, Repurpose You, and it’s my goal with Repurpose You is to empower people, to remember their deepest potential. It’s really focused on deep personal growth and development to live a more fulfilled, purpose-driven, and happy life. So I do that with individuals, and at the organizational level, I help leaders, managers, professionals improve performance by understanding the science of wellbeing, happiness, growth, and change. And that’s a beautiful combination because when we look inside of organizational performance productivity, we find that what underpins all, if not most of that, is our state of wellbeing. Our team dynamics, the way we communicate. And most importantly, of course, the way we feel. And so we optimize ourselves, we optimize our team. Most of the challenges of the organization are then they take care of themselves. And the ones that remained are far easier to deal with. That’s a little bit about me. Thank you so much.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I feel like I need to optimize myself. There are so many things, especially here coming out of the tail end of summer, feeling like maybe, oh, I need a reset. And so I love that word, optimize. It’s really coming to your true potential. Today, Brad and I are going to be talking about understanding how you can build team resilience, which you know, and we’re also going to be talking about what comes with that. If we want to have a resilient team, we’ve got to create an environment for them to thrive. So we’re also going to be talking about building psychological safety, which obviously has been so important, you know, through the pandemic. And it’s going to continue to be, as many of us are going back into lockdown again, and the world is continuing to change. But prior to that was so important and maybe not given the attention that it deserves. So from your perspective, where do we even begin? Because it seems like such a broad problem to address, to build team resilience, and create psychological safety. That can seem like a, especially if your organization might be big or maybe you feel that you don’t have the opportunity or the power or the means or whatever that might be to be able to make an impact, right? It’s just a drop in the bucket. How do you even start to look at building team resilience and creating psychological safety?

How Do We Create Psychological Safety?

Brad Reed:

That’s a fantastic question. And I’m going to go off of something you said towards the end there, which is the feeling that you can’t make a difference. And the thing is, no matter what level you are, no matter who you’re interacting with, you absolutely can. Okay. When you learn to empower yourself, become a better version of who you are, communicate more clearly, then your behavior starts to have an impact on other people. It’s our actions that affect other people. Okay. In NLP, we always say communication is the response you get, which is really interesting. So, and if we look at the way that conventional leadership training is done, we start at the top and work our way down because emotional intelligence, resilience, psychological safety is spread, built, and compounded through the currency of behavior. And so yeah, every single choice you make, every action you’d make can have a difference.

So that would be my supplement to what you said. There is my addition to the earlier part, which is a whole. What do I start if the organizations are big, small, little? Well, if it’s a smaller organization, you’re in a better position because you’re forming and forging your culture as you go, and you have a little bit more in essence control or a little bit you’re in a better position to make changes faster and to bring in the right people who match your vision, your mission, your purpose. If you’re trying to build a team that’s high-performing at a larger organizational level, well training, coaching consulting. Okay. And what that means is buy-in from leadership, human resources, and policy at every level of the organization. So you can’t hope by holding, you know, yoga sessions twice a month at a company that wellbeing is going to be transformed miraculously. It doesn’t work that way.

It has to be a holistic, integrated process at every level of the organization at the behavior of the individuals. That includes the behavior of the leader. That includes the behavior of HR. That includes the policies inside the organization. That includes the behaviors, the managers, the team leaders, and the individuals on the team. So again, it starts with the intention, the purpose of changing. Okay. And I have a process that I can share with you that helps reify that if you’re interested, so sort of a framework that people can go through to get started if you’re interested.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah! Let’s hear it!

How to Start Enacting Change in Your Organization

Brad Reed:

Okay. Okay. Okay. So, first of all, you need to determine if you want to sort of enact change where your team or your organization is. That’s really important. You know, we get a lot of very well-intentioned people from HR or in leadership who hear these buzz words like wellbeing and high-performance and, and transformation and ETQ and they go, oh, let’s do a, let’s do you know, a magic Mondays or, you know, yoga Wednesdays or whatever it may be without having done the prerequisite of understanding where the organization is and what the needs of the company are.

Okay. There are different ways you can build happiness and resilience inside of a team. You can look at purpose. Okay. You can look at resilience. You can look at kindness. You can look at empathy, you can look at EQ. So there are different facets that go into that. So understanding the needs and the pain points of the people that you’re trying to help is really number one.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that that can feel a little intimidating for some people I know. And even for me, depending on the relationship with someone, it can be really difficult to maybe identify that. And so I guess I, do you have any tips for how you can maybe assess that and say like, what is their need? Is it reflecting on metrics like turnover or absenteeism, or is it having an individual dialogue with people?

Brad Reed:

Yeah. There’s, I mean, there’s so many ways, and again, it depends on the size of the organization. So for example, KPMG did a, a, a organizational-wide survey when they’re trying to uncover why it was that their employees and their, their colleagues and associates found purpose so important. Why was that such a key ingredient to, for their overall ability for their overall drive and motivation to work at KPMG? And so they, they administered system-wide surveys and got feedback from the entire organization to understand the answer to that question. So at the organizational level, the large organization level, you can do internal surveys.

For smaller companies, something as simple as a Google survey, you know, 15 questions. What do you feel? What do you feel is missing in the workplace? Do you trust leadership? How well do you get along with your colleagues? How, how able are you to express your true opinions? So even something as simple as a Google survey, an anonymous Google survey that you can send out to the team gives HR and whoever may be looking at implementing something new, some metric to go by, there’s also plenty of companies. I won’t name them all. We’d be here all day, who do psychological safety surveys, emotional intelligence, surveys, and assessments, which can give you an idea of where your organization is at at the level of emotional intelligence, psychological safety, resilience, and performance. And so there’s all kinds of ways, but again you want to pick the one that’s most conducive for the size of your organization and the makeup of your organization as well.

Jenn DeWall:

Sure. That’s like, I love, you know, the conversation around this of how do we figure out why? Because I think it just gives us the opportunity again, to continue to adjust our mindset. And I think many leaders today are still working through that voice. Maybe that says emotions don’t exist and people should be happy that they have a job, especially right now where there’s a lot of economic uncertainty, depending on where you are in the world. You know, it can be hard for some organizations or leaders to even acknowledge that starting with who the individual is, is the right starting point, because there’s the piece of, they should just be happy that we’re here.

Brad Reed:

Sure. That’s like me saying, Jenn, water isn’t wet. You know, it’s just, it, it, the, the emotions are so critical and key to our performance. And I’ll give it just to give you some interesting metrics. I mean, 95% of our decision-making starts at the unconscious level. And our value structure is located in our limbic brain, which is our emotional brain. Okay. Which is fascinating. A lot of other things that we don’t realize is that again the ability to have higher empathy is one of the key factors in leadership development today. And when I say leadership development, I should say actually leadership progression. If you look at the causative relationship between emotional intelligence development and how hard, how high you rise in an organization, it’s crystal clear that to be successful leader in 2021 and beyond, and over the past several decades, you need a high level of EQ and EI.

So the data is crystal clear. That’s the thing, it’s that there’s no ambiguity in what the data is telling us. If you look at longitudinal studies, global studies where it equates, where you’re looking at emotion, intelligence development on the X axis performance on the Y you see companies that develop EI and EQ same-same, interchangeable, performance improves across the board. And so it is fundamental and vital, and it’s crucial, and we can’t escape it. And there’s different techniques that I use in my workshops to give people sort of an implicit, intuitive understanding of why this is, and then they can’t escape it because they felt it and they realized, oh, yeah, okay. I can’t escape my emotions. But the data’s crystal clear.

Jenn DeWall:

So yeah, emotions exist at work. I mean, it’s, I’m passionate about saying about like, getting this out there. It’s not obvious. And there are a lot of people, you know, as we do this work on understanding and understanding how to create psychological safety and understanding emotional intelligence, you know, it’s just that important reminder that we just have to stop shutting down emotions, and we’ve got to start using them as a beautiful indicator for how we can forge deeper connections. So your first piece of like how we begin is understanding where we are. What’s our second step.

First, Understand Your Issue, Then Implement Strategy

Brad Reed:

Yeah. So once, once you understand, you want to implement something. Okay. So the idea of implementing whatever you do, you want to make sure that something’s done. So wherever your need are addressed the need and implement something, whether that’s, you know, it could be a wellness program that’s six months long, or it could be something like a four day EQ training. Or offsite training for leadership development around emotional intelligence, something like that. It could be team coaching, or it could be a policy change. Okay. So again, based off the need from the initial survey of understanding and getting, meeting your team and your organization where you are. Then implement something that’s most conducive to try and rectify that problem. Okay. And whatever that is, it is going to be, again, very unique to each organization. So I’ve seen some organizations that, for example, their biggest issue was employee dissatisfaction, high turnover rates.

And so what they did was they installed a one-year wellness program that was very multifaceted. It had eating, yoga, mind, body reward, systems, achievement, everything you can almost imagine in a wellness program. And turnover went from 35% to 20% in two years. Isn’t that wonderful, right? That was a great strategy. And so again, it re you know, in, in ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, a lot of companies they’ve taken a family first policy. So when COVID hit, it was, we’re not terminating our people. We’re keeping everybody, even if it’s a reduced salary. And that was, that was something that was addressing the need because the need at the time was I want to have a job that gives me meaning I enjoy this position and they didn’t want to demoralize everybody else in the organization by terminating people.

So they, they went in the communal effort and said, look, we’re willing to keep everybody, if we can take a wage cut of 20%, for example, and that really galvanized and codified it, and brought everybody together in a meaningful way, created that community, that family feel inside of the companies and people still performed well. In fact, in a lot of the instances we saw here in Ho Chi Minh City, the companies that did that performed better. Okay. They perform better during the COVID crisis. The first time I came here, then they did before, which was a really fascinating outcome. So again, implement something based off the needs of your organization, your people and your teams, and that can look different for every organization.

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The Foundation for Psychological Safety at Work

Jenn DeWall:

So, and then just to kind of bring it back for everyone, we’re talking about the foundation. This is creating the foundation of how we can actually have that culture, where our teams are resilient, where people feel psychologically safe. We’ve got to begin with kind of an assessment of our organization, the team, our hierarchy, our individual role, where are we at? What are the challenges that we’re facing? Maybe we’re facing turnover. Maybe we have increased conflict. Maybe we’re just not communicating in that way. Or maybe we’re not healthy. Maybe we’re noticing more absenteeism or mental health challenges. And then take action, implement something based off of what, what you see. So this is the foundation of what you can do. We’ve got to understand our problems, and we’ve got to start addressing them. Where do we go after that, Brad?

Brad Reed:

Yeah. So once you implement something, you want buy-in and participation at every level of the organization. So here’s where a lot of companies get it wrong and that the staff and the teams feel it, they feel like it’s sort of a, it’s a gesture from leadership to make them a little bit happier, but they feel that it’s hollow. So, for example, I’m not trying to pick on yoga. I love yoga. Okay. But if you’re doing just yoga Fridays and leaders aren’t showing up, managers aren’t showing up, and it just feels like it’s a practice that has been put in place for the sake of doing it. Staff recognize that. Because it’s not getting integrated into the culture of the organization. It’s not permeating and touching people where it needs to. Because real change again, happens at the level of behavior. And that’s really important. So you need to integrate whatever the strategy is at every level of the organization, leadership needs to be bought in, management’s bought in HR is bought in policy changes reflect it, activities reflect it, and ultimately most important, you see a change in behavior with everybody, and then it becomes part of the cultural ethos. I mean, humans, we’re tribal creatures monkey see monkey do okay. It’s really quite simple. When three people in a team start behaving differently, the fourth and fifth are far more likely to do it. And so, again, these ideas, these concepts are spread to the currency of behavior, and it’s crucial in particular at the top leadership that they have buy-in and they’re participating as well. So that cannot be underscored. It’s absolutely essential. And it’s super, super important.

Generating Buy-In for Sustained Behavioral Change

Jenn DeWall:

No, absolutely. I mean, at Crestcom, one of our, I guess, beliefs is to use leadership development to get sustained behavior change. But yes, it has to come with buy-in. I have had, well, I’ve had one time when teaching leadership development that there was one person that I think the boss was probably like, I think that this individual would really benefit from leadership development, but yet this person had no interest in doing that. And they were miserable. They would join things with. They would cause everything went to zoom. So they would join with their camera off. I would notice that they weren’t paying attention, and this happened month after month. And no one else in the class had this issue, but yet this person just did not buy into it. And so as novel as the idea may be as, you know, grandiose and beautiful, whether it’s yoga time, whether it’s like, maybe it’s yoga with goats, maybe we’re taking it to the next level or something.

But we have to understand and get the buy-in that we can’t just force actions on people. And yes, people can tell if we’re not being authentic in our approach, like we’re checking a box. Now we can compete because we have this wellness program. Well, why are you doing the wellness program? And is it truly integrated within your culture? Or is it just something that you can say that checks the box? Or is it something that everyone talks about? Because I think, you know, the role, what’s the role of leadership and getting this buy-in from your perspective? Because the role, like we are the ones that are tasked with, how do we get everyone together? And especially now as many organizations are going to hybrid that the research is showing that really the ownership of culture comes down to the leader because not everyone is going to be in the office in the same way. So the leader has more, I would say, of an expectation to really preserve, create the culture, get the buy-in than ever before. How would you, what are some ideas that you have for how to generate buy-in?

Brad Reed:

Yeah, so that, that’s a really interesting question. And again, I’m going to come down to behavior. And we’re going to talk about this a little bit more. When we talk about development, specific ways we can develop psychological safety, okay. People respond to behavior, you know what I mean? People don’t respond as much to ideas or concepts or philosophies. They respond to behavior because that’s our biology. We’re inherently hard wired to perceive things a certain way and feel things a certain way. And so we respond to things that we perceive, which are in the form of actions and behaviors. So one of the things is, you know, leaders need to appreciate that at the very, at the very least, they need to have a good conceptual understanding of why this program or why this philosophy or why EQ, or why EI is important. Okay. And that’s why sometimes when you’re presenting these ideas, as I do to different levels of the organization, I have a different conversation with HR than I do with the CEO, sometimes very different conversation.

But the point is at the end of the day, they’re bought in for the same reason, they see it as an opportunity for growth. Now, what I would is when you’re having a conversation with the leader, it’s critical that they understand implicitly how important their role is. And a lot of that has to do with education. A lot of that has to do with leadership support. You know, we can’t just expect leaders to go in and, you know become magical intelligence gurus without support and training for themselves. And that’s really, really important. So if we’re going to equip the organization, we also need to simultaneously equip the leadership team. And that’s something that some of the initiatives that were so interesting at Ford, that we saw. So the chairman of Ford and I believe his name was Bill, implemented some mindfulness programs, right at the level of the board of directors.

And he was bought in and everybody started practicing these mindfulness programs. And I believe a few of them were off-site, but that permeated the culture of the company. And that was a, that was a terrific example. Some leaders, again, I’ll backtrack. They need to have a good appreciation of the value of this concept. And then they also need to be empowered to fulfill their role because they are integral to the implementation of these ideas, philosophies, and practices inside of our organization. So make them aware how important it is, empower them because their role is equivalently important. Hope that that helps. Yeah. Yeah,

Iteration – Try and Try Again!

Jenn DeWall:

Absolutely! Getting them connected. And it, you know, it comes back to even like, the survey that Google did on team performance, understanding that individuals, if you want a high-performing team and, you know, we have to have dependability structure and clarity in our role. But two of the things that they also found were meaning, purpose and impact. It sounds like, you know, if we want buy-in and we’ve got to start with why. And we’ve got to connect with that meaningful work, and then we also need, you know, the other thing they found is psychological safety. So do you feel like this is our three core way of like the foundation of what we need, we need to do an organizational assessment. We need to take action and then we need to get buy in. Is there anything else that, or that a leader would do after that?

Brad Reed:

Iterate! You may not get it right. The first time that’s step four, really iterate. It’s like, okay, what went well, what didn’t, how can we improve? But keep going. That’s the idea. And be willing to admit that, you know, things maybe weren’t executed properly, or we could have got better results, or we can try something different. And how do you do that? Get more feedback. So it becomes, you know, it really becomes, in essence, it become a, you know, a positive, positive feedback loop. It’s like, okay, we get the initial assessment, do the implementation, get the buy-in and everybody’s on board and then iterate. What’s working? What isn’t? Let’s try it again, get some more feedback, gets more buy-in. So it becomes, in essence, you want to, as much as you can make it a co-creative process, make the company, or make this culture change, feel like it’s being co-created by everybody. And everybody’s got to say, therefore, they think it’s for them. Therefore the why is much more clear. It’s not topical and superficial. And it doesn’t feel like icing on the cake kind of thing. It really feels like, oh man, this is actually something that is helping and empowering me. And I have a voice and things didn’t go well, but they’re trying, they admit it’s a fault and they keep going. So those are that. That would be my suggestion for you.

Giving and Receiving Feedback—It Takes Practice!

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. So it sounds like it’s like if we’re making an iterative process, then we’re also just completing this process simultaneously or again and again, like you want to, it’s not a set and forget, right. Even needs change. The pandemic showed us that there can be a total disruption to the way that we work, the way that we live. And we got to be able to build in processes or feedback loops so we can address those real-time challenges and changes. So that starting back with that assessment, where are you at? What are you trying to be? What are your challenges and going from there? And I, you know, I just love, again, the, the reinforcement that we have to continuously ask for feedback. And there was someone that had interviewed Hillary Blair on a past podcast episode. And one of the things her background is in theater.

And one thing that’s very, very common. And I believe, hopefully I’m saying this right, but is that, you know, in a cast it’s very common to openly share feedback. Because that’s how together you put together a great performance. But yet, and there’s open and honest feedback. There might be someone that might give you feedback that, oh God, like they might actually give you the real deal of feedback that you need to hear to help the whole performance go off. But yet, when you bring that into a corporate culture sometimes people get afraid to get feedback or there’s too much ego and we don’t step back and look at that big picture. And I think that was just a good reminder, again, that we’ve got to get more comfortable giving each other feedback and to not be afraid of it, understand how to receive it.

I get feedback all of the time. And I’m sure you do too, from being more in a setting where you’re just, I guess more publicly, like, not like a celebrity, but like publicly recognizable, right? Like you’re doing webinars, you’re doing things that, you know, many people might see of you and yet, and then there’s a lot of opinions about who you are. And some of those opinions are really, really helpful and there’s great feedback. And then there are some that I don’t necessarily jive with. I’m glad that someone took the time to do it, but I’m maybe won’t follow it, but we have to get okay with building that competence to say like feedback is just an opportunity to do better.

Brad Reed:

I think that’s such an important point. And like I said, the pillar of today’s conversation is resilience, which by the way, you and I are talking about that right now. Okay. You, you empower the organization to improve wellness, happiness. Then resilience is a by-product of that. You know what I mean? It emerges from people feeling safe, feeling bought in, people having a sense of purpose. It’s an emergent property. Resilience is a state of being. And so when people feel safe, when people feel they have a voice, when people have that sense of purpose when people are communicating, then resilience is a by-product to that. So just for the listeners, it may not seem that Jenn and I have addressed that question directly, but we have. And so I just wanted to touch that in the idea of feedback is critical and foundational to our second point, which is psychological safety. And that’s a really interesting can of worms in itself.

Why is Psychological Safety So Important?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, let’s talk about it. But how do you build psychological safety? Because this is, we know that we’ve seen it. So I just referenced Google’s study, which many of you are likely familiar with. I’m all about, you know, what they found of the five characteristics of a top performing team, that psychological safety, it was one of them, but then Microsoft also did another survey from the Microsoft Work Trend Index where they found a supportive culture, which I’m going to go ahead and say again, that comes down to psychological safety. Do I have a place that, you know, people care about me and they don’t just care what we for what I do, but they care about me as an individual. So we know the research is there that psychological safety still relatively a newer concept. Right? I know that when I started my leadership journey twenty years ago, they weren’t talking about psychological safety. They just weren’t. And so it’s, you know, it’s still, I’m going to call it relatively new and maybe a newer expression to some than others, but how do you begin to address psychological safety? Because that, that is big and it’s so important. If you want to maintain your engagement, if you want to reduce turnover, if you want to get buy-in and accomplish your goals, people have to feel safe and secure at work.

Brad Reed:

Sure. What I’m going to do is, is fundamentally, I’m a coach and I love to ask questions. So I’m going to ask a question to you and to the listeners, because I think this will reify it for them at a more experiential, emotional level. And so Jenn and anyone listening, imagine inside your team or organization, you could share any idea, any concern, any thought, any problem, any feeling with anyone on your team, including your leader. Just take a moment. And you know, if you can’t imagine what that would look like or what that would feel like more importantly, and as a follow-up, how empowered would you feel? What kind of communication barriers could that overcome? And how quickly could you solve problems? You know, I use those questions to bring it home because how many communication issues are, because things are not being communicated to begin with.

Right? I think people just aren’t being raw. How many problems aren’t solved because we don’t get to the root cause and we’re doing things at a topical level? How many conflicts are created because people are misunderstanding each other? And there’s so much more under the surface that’s not getting expressed. How much has performance lowered when people feel disempowered and they don’t feel inspired or motivated to share the real ideas. And for everybody listening, remember in today’s economy, human capital is a critical component. The idea of the knowledge economy, which is ideas, ideas sharing is so fundamental to innovation and creativity today because that’s a cornerstone of where the future’s going. It’s ideas. You know, the idea of human capital as labor, physical labor is quickly fading away. But the idea at least, you know, in the developing countries, and so what’s left human capital as ideas.

So the free flowing of ideas is essential in the team in order to increase creativity, innovation, and competitiveness. So having a culture which nurtures and supports that is absolutely essential. So those of you who are listening, who are a little more analytical looking at KPIs, ideas of results, innovations results, creativity results, navigating challenges. Results makes you more competitive, but you don’t grow green plants and in terrible soil, okay. It doesn’t work that way. So the soil that cultivates that kind of free flowing expression of ideas is psychological safety. And it’s a roundabout way of, and I’m going to get into how we build that now. But I just wanted to start with that because I want people listening to appreciate that on an experiential level on what psychological safety is or what it could be when it’s done right?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. I found myself as you were asking those questions, being like, yeah! You know, and sometimes it’s not even like this, because psychological safety doesn’t have to look like, maybe just feeling like, oh my gosh, I’m afraid to share my ideas. That is one piece of it. But psychological safety can be like, I don’t know, like last time I shared an idea like this, it didn’t go well. So I’m just not going to do it anymore because I just don’t want to engage in it. So it doesn’t have to be that deep. So just as people are thinking, this can sound like a very heavy topic. If we’re looking at behaviors, it could just be someone that’s like, I’m not even sure if this is worth messing with anymore. And when we do that, then yes, like it changes our ability to adapt.

It changes our ability to address challenges. I think the piece that happens for me most often in an organization would be feeling like over time, your ideas aren’t heard, they aren’t valued. And so then you just stop and you just kind of watch. Like, you’re like not my circus, not my monkeys. However that expression goes and you just kind of watch as like an onlooker and say, well, just give me my marching orders and I will go and do this. And yeah. Then that’s a very disenfranchised way of maybe living and doing my role. I want to say that because I do think sometimes people think of the concept of psychological safety as like, you know, really, really heavy. Like we have to make sure that we’re addressing that emotional component. It can be small actions that we’re telling people we don’t care.

Psychological Safety Starts With Organizational Culture

Brad Reed:

Sure. And you know, the idea is psych safety can be easy to build, but even easier to break. And we’re going to talk about that a little bit. Yeah. And I just want to share Amy Edmondson’s definition because I really enjoy it. And she said psychological safety is a belief that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes. I don’t think that’s a great definition. And if we look at, and again to reify with psych safety is, let’s look at psych danger. So psych danger is fear of admitting mistakes. It’s blaming others. Team members are less likely to share different views. And this allows group dynamics to affect the poor. It leads to poor decision-making, which, and then that whole loop repeats. Then you get more fear of admitting mistakes, et cetera, psych safety people are comfortable admitting mistakes.

They’re okay. Learning from failures, it’s normalized, everyone openly shares ideas. It’s part of the culture. And then you get better innovation and decision-making, and the study that you pointed out before; again, psych safety was not only a part of that. It was foundational. And by far the most critical component, which was a really interesting result from, from the study that they did. And so it, it really is the most significant predictor of high-performance teams. And it is in essence, the edge, some of the ways that we can build that directly through behaviors that we can start doing immediately. And I’m going to stop. I’m going to first talk short-term strategies and then long-term strategies. Okay.

Brad Reed:

Some short-term strategies are really quite simple. Okay. So like modeling fallibility. And so what a leader can begin to do, or a manager can begin to do, or the team can begin to do is admit that they don’t have all the answers. And what that does is it creates a culture where there’s permission to help people, Jenn, I need your help. And I say to you, I need your help on this. Or I might miss something, ah, you’re bought in to help me. And I’m acknowledging the fact that I need you and you need me. I could say, you know, I’m not so good at details, Jenn. So your job is very important. You’re far more detailed than me. That’s what I need you for. So invite the input that, and just be candid that you can’t do it alone. That’s a great way to model fallibility and vulnerability to a great, I mean, I have lots of tips here, but embrace messengers. When people speak up. Yeah. So when people speak up, you know, point to problems and offer ideas and concerns, even if it’s sometimes contrary to status quo, thank them and make it a very positive experience for them.

So you want to reinforce that in a very positive way. If somebody’s voicing a concern and opinion, encourage it. Thank you so much. That’s really appreciated. Awesome. Never punished the messenger and embrace and celebrate the messenger. Like you said earlier, be open to feedback. Number one, problem. I get management training, Jenn, they always say, Brad, how can I build a culture of feedback? And then they, they immediately, what they do is I train them on it. I see them a month later and they come back and they say, nobody’s doing it. They’re not listening to me. And I say, are you accepting feedback first? They say, no, no. I thought everybody else did. I say no, you have to model it and be open to it yourself. That’s something you can do and behave in a way that says an invite it, what can I do differently? How can I do better guys? What can we do differently next time? How can this project go more smoothly? So be open to feedback personally and professionally about tasks and about yourself.

Embrace the Messengers

Jenn DeWall:

Like, I just want to let him going back to maybe my 20 year old self. When I think about embracing messengers, I worked at a culture where, and I wouldn’t say it was broad. Like this was maybe a systemic issue throughout the organization, but I will say it wasn’t the specific department that I worked in, but even just sharing suggestions or opinions. I cannot even tell you how I, and I had worked with this organization for four years in two different areas. I had had a lot of success. And then all of a sudden I found myself in a new division with new leadership. And what I found there is that there was so much ego, so much that the ego from the executive leadership at the top really shut down any ability for anyone to offer ideas when you would offer ideas.

I cannot tell you how many times that I would get the look of, do what I told you to do. And that’s just so disenchanting. And then it also would be like, in my head, I’m like, why are we doing some of these things? Or explain the why to me in a way that I can understand it, because for the workload that you’re wanting, this is going to be something that we’re going to do for a week. Like, is this realistic? Is it actually going to be executed? Probably not. Or I think of just different things that I can think of this leader. And they just were never receptive to things. If it did not come and originate from their own idea, it could never, it could never work. And matter of fact, if you had something contrary or something that wasn’t in alignment, then you were seen. And that’s why I was seen as kind of like this black sheep, like, oh Jenn, like, you’re just trying to ruffle the feathers. You’re not falling in line.

And I mean, I know our listeners have heard, I’ve gotten experience from that same organization or feedback. That’s like, you need to be working with more vanilla and more of a yes man. And that should be the Testament of like, that’s a culture that doesn’t support the messenger, right? Like if you’re going to, if you’re giving employees your feedback to be more vanilla, clearly you do not want them to have a point of view. And just that perpetuated this disengagement and just like, oh my gosh, does leadership even exist? Is that just a myth that they taught us early on to get us to like be inspired at work? You know, there was just so many and the mental health challenges that came from that.

So just being mindful of the role that ego plays. And then I said, what if we did, I like to say like, look at everyone as if we’re all like kids in the playground. Like, we’re all just trying to figure out the task. We’re all happy. We are so innocent and pure and you know, trying to do our best that we don’t have to maybe take it as this like me versus you. Like, we’re just all trying to do our best and work together. That’s my, my side tangent. And it came from my own place of pain. So yeah. Embrace the messengers, like drop your ego trust that people are- assume positive intent trust that people want to do. What’s best by you, the team and the organization.

Check Your Ego – Building Self-Awareness

Brad Reed:

Yeah. Fantastic point. What I would say to that is, and I had an interview with a CEO today, and he was really talking about servant leadership at the end of the day. It’s our, it’s our role to serve our clients, the community, the organization, and our team members. And he means that holistically, it wasn’t just a talking point. He embodies this through and through. And what can that look like? Sometimes it looked like shared success and shared credit. So if you have someone who wants all the credit wants all the accomplishments, wants all the fame, it’s going to disempower the people around. You give people the, you know, give people successes, give them quick wins, and then they go, okay. Oh, that was my idea. Wonderful. You know, because sometimes in leadership, their suggestion becomes a commandment. So allow people to own their own ideas and give them credit for it really shared credit is wonderful, great tips that, you know, there’s a few more long-term stuff, which really helps in all of this in particular, if you want to build high-performing teams and organizations is building self-awareness and self-regulation.

Understanding yourself is extremely important to growth. You know what I mean? A lot of this stuff is topical and behavioral, but if you start to build self-awareness and self-regulation the application of everything that we just said, come so much easier. It’s just a by-product of who you are and who you’re being. And so the developer development of EQ and EI and organizations is a big part of what I do is really, really important. It’s crucial. Managing emotions and staying calm is essential for engagement in building psychological safety, because let’s admit Jenn and you’re right. I’ve received a lot of feedback, when you’re not used to it at first, it can hurt. And you have to find ways to deal with that, which requires self-awareness self-regulation. And so those would be my, my, my quick and long-term strategies for building psych safety.

And I’ve done quite a bit of research. A lot. And I’ve looked at all the meta-analyses and the major leading studies in the world. So sort of encapsulate this into a couple of phrases that make sense for people. And I call it, Brad’s not-so-boring summary of the research. Okay. So I’ll, I’ll say save you the boring analytics and all this stuff that I had to read to get to this, but in short, and I’ll define one more term to hear psychological capital, that’s individual performance. That’s the individual resilience. Psychological capital is made of four components- self-efficacy or the belief people have to perform and do well, the confidence they have in themselves, hope, resilience and optimism. And so it’s so important to make sure that the individual has a lot of hope, a lot of optimism, a lot of resilience and a strong sense of self-efficacy. And that can be built at the level of the individual and the level of the team and concurrently the really positive feedback mechanisms.

And when you look at all the research and you sum it down and distill it like I did, I found that emotional intelligence. So EQ development, EI development at the individual, the team, and the organization, as it applies to building both psychological capital, which is our ability to feel good and perform well, and psychological safety, which is what we’ve been talking about- team resilience, shared ideas, performance innovation, creativity- is a critical factor in building organizational performance and competitiveness. So I’ll really say it again. As we build individual and team EI and EQ, psych capital goes up, that’s our ability to do things effectively and perform well and feel good. Psych safety goes up, which is the teams. Interdynamics the energy, the ability to innovate, create, communicate, and produce amazing results. And together that produces increases in organizational performance. And so I hope that was clear. And it made sense,

Taking Responsibility For Your Choices

Jenn DeWall:

You know, just as a reminder of we’re talking about psychological safety, I love the strategies admit that you don’t have the answers, like show that you’re human. People want to work for humans, not robots and embrace that messenger. And then also you had suggested like the long-term like, you know, as an individual, you’ve got to take responsibility for how you show up. You have to also understand the role that your ego plays in things. I know that in my twenties, in my career, I was far more egocentric than I am today. I don’t necessarily need all the credit. I don’t want, I don’t even do great with accepting positive feedback anymore because I’m like, why do you need me to do, to do better, but understanding that it’s on us and that we can change the way that we work, we can change what work actually feels like when we start with ourselves. And my work as a coach, it’s similar for your work.

As a coach, it’s starting with understanding our choices. How do you want work to be, you know, work can be the thing that you love, or it can be the thing that you love, but you’ve got to build that self-Awareness to understand what are your triggers, what are the things that are working, not working, and take responsibility. Stop living the, this is my bosses fault. And I don’t want to actually marginalize that because there are a lot of things that managers can do that disrupt their workplace. But we do also have to understand that the power that we have is in how we respond, but really focusing on self-efficacy. So thinking about psychological safety, you know, how are you building people’s confidence in their roles? You know, you talked about throughout this, like understanding and getting that, buy-in helping them understand the why. The why they are there. Really building that support and helping them say like, yeah, absolutely. I’m of needed valued person. And so I, yeah, just long story short to kind of recap. Yes, absolutely it made total sense, Brad. What closing comments would you want to share with our listeners?

Brad Reed:

I would always say, I want to double down on what you said. Because fundamentally, personal empowerment, you know, responsibility breeds, empowerment. And so for anybody here who is possibly in a toxic work environment, look at yourself first. I’m not saying that the culture can’t change or the manager can’t change. I’m not saying that at all. But always look inwards and see how we can reframe how we can change our perception, how we can embolden ourselves and embody ourselves and how we can improve our happiness wellbeing. Take a deep look at the decisions, behaviors, and thoughts that you have first, because sometimes what I find is a lot of the issues. Again, they go away. When the individual’s perspective changes when they’re feeling good, when their life outside of work is balanced. Marshall Goldsmith did a lot of work on this in the early, early years when he was developing his brand.

And he was looking at people’s satisfaction score outside of work and satisfaction score inside of work, strong correlation. They’re not satisfied out. They won’t be satisfied in. So look at yourself, build psychological capital, mindfulness, resilience, training, yoga, health, whatever it is for. You always make us, you know, a diligent effort to improve who you are personally and professionally. It’s immensely rewarding. I’m going to double down on Jenn with that, for sure. Absolutely. Second, start somewhere. You know what I mean? Start for leaders and managers in HR- start somewhere. It’s okay. Even if it’s baby steps, start somewhere, okay, we can assess. Then we can implement. Then everybody gets buy in and then we iterate, but we have to start somewhere. And so having an intention is great. Having an action is better. Because then we get to start to move in the direction that we want to go. And remember psych safety. And what we’re talking about is spread to the currency of behavior, not ideas or information. Behavior. When we change the behavior of the leader, the manager then, and the team, the whole organizational behavior changes. And what emerges from that is better performance, better wellbeing, better happiness, just a great culture. All around humans are the future in 2021 and beyond. Take care of the human capital by psych safety, psych capital, and your organization will not see and end to creativity, innovation, and that all comes from happiness. So those are my closing thoughts.

Where to Find Brad Reed

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Don’t just talk about it, be about it. You know, as a leader, like actions speak louder than words. There’s a reason that these expressions have become popular and stayed around. Think about the power of your actions, Brad, how do people get in touch with you?

Brad Reed:

Yeah. Great question. You can find me on LinkedIn. It’s quite easy. Brad Reed, or I love getting emails as LinkedIn’s my main medium to communicate with people, emails to brad@repurpose-you.com.

Jenn DeWall:

Perfect. They can also find it in the show notes, I’ll find it in the show notes. No worries. Thank you so much for joining us on The Leadership Habit podcast today. It was great to have you. I hope that listeners are walking away with just different ideas, different inspiration for how they can create a truly more resilient and psychologically safe environment for all to thrive. Thank you so much.

Brad Reed:

Jenn. My absolute pleasure. Thank you for being a terrific host. Thank you.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you want to connect with Brad, you can go to repurpose-you.com or you can also email him at brad@repurpose-you.com. Or you can connect with him at LinkedIn. And of course it’s https://www.linkedin.com/in/brad-reed. Now you can also find this information in our show notes. If you enjoyed this week’s episode of the leadership pivot podcast and know someone that could benefit, please share it with them together. We rise. And of course, if you enjoyed it, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service and last, but certainly not least. If your organization is looking for leadership development, please reach out to us. We offer a complimentary to our leadership skills building workshop and would love to help develop your team.

 

The post Building Psychological Safety and Resilience in Teams with Executive Coach, Brad Reed appeared first on Crestcom International.

Overcome Confidence Killers by Tapping into Your Unconscious with Michele Molitor

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast,  Jenn DeWall talks about confidence killers with Michele Molitor. Michele is the Founder and CEO of Nectar Consulting, Inc., and co-author of the best-selling book, Breakthrough Healing. She works with executives and entrepreneurs bringing over 25 years of experience, intuitive insights and strategic business savvy to their success. She is an expert at enhancing the capacity of leaders, their greater, emotional, social, and leadership wellbeing, helping them to build inclusive company cultures that result in trustworthy teams that are more productive, passionate, and profitable. Enjoy this episode as Michele and I sit down to talk about how we can tap into our unconscious to overcome your confidence killers.

Meet Michele Molitor, CEO of Nectar Consulting, Inc.

Jenn DeWall:

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am sitting down with Michele Molitor, and we are going to talk, talk about how you can tap into your unconscious to reach your success. Holy cow, tapping into your unconscious. How did you even come to be, or how did your work come to be, Michele? And thank you so much for joining us on the show, but we’re going to be tackling something that I think is going to be so intriguing and so interesting today, but out of curiosity, how did you start your journey into this line of work?

Michele Molitor:

Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for having me on the show, Jenn, it’s a real delight to be here with you again. And gosh it was a strange and circuitous route that brought me to my work. I was a creative director in web development in my former career. And it was very exciting. It brought me here to the San Francisco bay area at the height of the Dot Com boom, the original one back in 2000. And it, it was really, really fabulous. I was building this amazing team as part of a global web development company and I hired two guys to be art directors underneath me, you know, on my team. And they made it really clear in short order that they didn’t like working for a woman. And I essentially got bullied out of my job by these two guys that I hired that had really big egos. And I didn’t have the chutzpah that I have now, and I didn’t know how to, I didn’t know how to handle it. And essentially they chipped away at my confidence that ultimately led me to getting fired. And it was devastating was really, really devastating. I had worked, you know, my whole career to get to that fancy corner office and that fancy six figure salary and boom, there I was and I was like, oh crap. Now what do I do?

And I really suffered a whole huge imposter syndrome of what do I do now and who am I? And oh my gosh, no one will want me and I can’t give my resume to anybody. And so I hired a coach, this thing called career coaches back then, I was like, where do I find one of those? I’ve never heard of that. And so in the process of being coached, it was like all the cells in my body came into alignment and was like, “Do This!” I was like, oh, this is the work that I’m meant to be doing. So I literally changed careers. I got trained and certified and hung out my own shingle with Nectar Consulting in 2001. And I’ve been doing it ever since. And along that path, I’ve, I’m very curious. I’m a learning junkie. Can I have another workshop please?

What is Rapid Transformational Therapy?

Michele Molitor:

And so I’ve been trained and certified in a variety of different coaching modalities and healing modalities. And the most recent one that I came upon that was so transformative for me in my own personal development is called Rapid Transformational Therapy or RTT for short and doing this work enabled me to get at blocks that I had been trying to root out for 20 something years in a matter of weeks. And so when I was able to create those shifts for myself like that, I was like, whoa. And it was the same thing. My whole body was like tingling. Like this is the next level of mastery. So I went and got trained and certified in RTT and have combined it with my coaching, my 20 years of coaching and what I call rapid rewiring. And so essentially all of that to say, I’m a little mind detective I go in and I work over zoom like this with people all over the world to help them discover the limiting beliefs they’re holding deeply lodged in their subconscious, that they don’t even know necessarily are there.

They just know that they’re stuck or they’re blocked, or they’re having these chronic health issues that they just don’t know how to move beyond. And so when you can get at those root causes and literally rewrite the rewrite, the neural pathways in your brain with new empowering beliefs, everything shifts and changes for the better. And it’s, it’s a beautiful thing to behold,

Jenn DeWall:

Oh, that was a lot! And I’m so excited to dive more into tapping into our unconscious and our TTX. There’s so many questions that I have about your rapid rewiring process, but I want to also acknowledge, and also for our listeners, I’m sure you would do the same. There are so many people that are extremely talented that have found themselves in situations that are likely similar to yours, where you hire that person. You worked your tail off and invested time resources, sweat to get to that corner office, and then to have it not go as planned and to ultimately have it go in the opposite direction that you could have ever dreamed of.

Jenn DeWall:

And I just want to acknowledge the difficulty in being able to go from that place to where you are today. And I also hope that our listeners listening to this can also understand that those situations happen in work and you’re not flawed. You’re not, you know, you don’t lack, worthiness or value these things happen. And we’re going to talk about how we can tap into our consciousness and you’ll be inspired by Michele today. But I just wanted to acknowledge that because I do experience different or hurdles in my professional career. And I think in the beginning, you really start to take that as just a tattoo that’s printed on you. It’s part of you, it’s who you are. And it is incredibly difficult to see beyond it when you’re in it.

Michele Molitor:

Oh, totally. I couldn’t agree more. It literally took me years, years to get past what in my mind was shame and guilt. And I felt like such a fraud and oh, all of these things, but it truly was just these two men’s egos coming up against my ego. Right? And their hurt and their wounds coming up against my hurt and my wounds and it, and it created this garbled mess. Right? But once I was able to reframe it and look at it through different lenses, I was slowly able to regain my power to regain my confidence from it, which is why I’m so passionate about helping people reclaim their confidence to get past imposter syndrome, because it can be so painful and it can be so challenging and it really can stunt your career if you let those fears overtake your brain. Right.

Why Should we Tap into Our Unconscious?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for just like acknowledging again, bringing up your, your experience, your journey, how you were able to reflect. And you know, we don’t have to look back at these career challenges, obstacles with bitterness and still holding onto that negative energy that maybe was experienced in it. We can also learn to like move past that. And I, and that’s all about tapping into your unconscious. So, I mean, I know there’s more work beyond that, but why is it Michele? Why is it important to tap into your unconscious?

Michele Molitor:

So if you break down the workings of your brain, right, 90% of your brain power is operates from an subconscious unconscious level. Right? It’s only that 5 to 10%. That is our conscious, critical thinking, right? From our prefrontal cortex. So all your emotions, how you, your body works on automatically your, your beats all by itself, that’s all happening because of the subconscious elements happening in your brain and your nervous system. So the beliefs that we create about ourselves at a very young age, tend to get registered in our subconscious and then they stay there nice and neat and stored away until we come across something like that event as a young adult or an adult and your brain goes, oh, no, it remember that happened to you when you were five. Don’t do that again. Right? There’s a part of your brain called the amygdala, which is your fight, flight or freeze mechanism. I like to call her Amy. Amy’s the little lizard lady who lives in your limbic brain and she’s in charge of keeping you safe and alive and on the planet. Right? And so when you’re a little kid, if you have these traumatic events, whether it’s, you got bullied on the playground, or your parents said something ugly to you, or your siblings said something mean to you, or you suffered some kind of, you know, serious trauma or abuse. All of those from one end of the spectrum to the other, they leave these indelible marks in your subconscious. We make decisions about ourselves as little kids, because our brain just takes in this information and it lodges and stores there in our subconscious, it doesn’t get processed.

It just drops in like a sponge. So you’ve got all this data sitting there, guiding how you move through the world to be safe, right. But as an adult, if you start to recognize, wow, I have this pattern, this way of operating in the world to stay safe, but it’s really not keeping me safe. It’s making me really uncomfortable. It’s making me anxious. It’s worrying me. It’s creating all these blocks in my world. Maybe I should get rid of it. But then you’re like, well, I don’t exactly know where to find it. Like what drawer is it in? In the back of the closet? I just don’t know where it is. And so through the work that I do with folks, I’m able to literally help them relax into an alpha brainwave state. It’s that half-awake, half asleep place, like you’ve just come out of a nap.

And in that state, I’m able to access your subconscious and literally have a conversation with it and find out what is at the origin point of that belief or that block that you have. And from that point, we can literally rewrite it. We re we reduce, we eliminate the emotional charge that you made up about it however long ago it was. And we just neutralize it. It would be like pouring baking soda on it. That’s all we’re doing. Right? And then you rewire the neural pathways in your brain for new beliefs. I am enough. I do believe in myself, I am worthy. I have value, whatever those old belief stories are for you. And that enables you to show up with greater confidence to take back your power and to navigate through your world differently than you ever have before, because you’ve moved all of that old junk out of your trunk that you don’t need anymore.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I, you know, Michele, I think people may not even realize. So, you know, we talked about this in the, in the pre-call or I guess before we hit record, and I was just coming from a day of bouncing around meetings and I would identify as a workaholic. And when I make that connection, yes, it comes from that subconscious or unconscious belief, which was rooted in my childhood right on I’m older than a child. And I still hold on to the belief of I’m not good enough, which then throws into the workaholic mode. You got to work, got to prove it, got to do your best. And then ultimately I still feel like I’m dropping the ball because I don’t have enough time to actually do all the things in the way that I want to. But I say that because someone listening, you know that I’m not good enough. You might initially say that that’s not, that doesn’t relate to me, but what you might relate to is being a workaholic. Or like, what are you trying to prove? And maybe that’s the language that resonates with you, but you know, what do – what are the benefits when we can truly tap into our unconscious? And what are the benefits that people see? I know we talked about being able to flip it, but what have you noticed with your clients?

Michele Molitor:

Oh gosh, I have so many stories. Folks that I’ve worked with, you know, they’ll come to me with one thing. So they might say I have my own business and I keep coming up against this financial barrier. And I’d like to bust through that, that financial barrier. And, and every time I get close to that, you know, X dollar mark, I self-sabotage, my revenues fall. And then, oh yeah. And then I get this horrible bout of IBS or inflammatory bowel syndrome. I was like, oh, well, how about we fix that? She’s like, okay. Right. And so doing this work, what we got to at the root of it was a fear of being too powerful, of being too successful. Right. and so when we neutralize that we eliminated and then rewrote the story around it. Not only did she have her best month ever after we finished our work, but her body stopped doing the fear response of the IBS reaction. Right? So after 15 years of dealing with IBS, chronic IBS, it was gone. So it’s not only about increasing your confidence. It’s not only about feeling like you can create greater peace and calm in your body, but it’s also the mindsets we carry about ourselves often manifest as chronic physical ailments in our bodies.

I’ve treated folks with chronic IBS, chronic fatigue migraines, psoriasis, arthritis, anxiety, depression, addictions, all of these tend to be rooted in these negative beliefs that we hold about ourselves. And then they get amplified over time by other events that happen in our lives. So we need to go back all the way to the root of it. And you change that story. Then it creates a positive ripple effect all the way forward, which has an amazing effect.

The Power of Thoughts to Overcome Confidence Killers

Jenn DeWall:

I have a question and I was just more curiosity question for you because I was leading an event yesterday, and we were talking about the power of our thoughts and how they can impact what we do. And I know you and I share a lot around, you know, understanding how we’re setting yourself up for success in that regard. But I came across an individual and I love when I hear this individual that says I don’t have negative thoughts. I never have a single negative thought. And in my, I guess in my experience, I find it hard to believe that someone doesn’t, but I’m curious what you think about that?

Michele Molitor:

That’s a nice story that they’re telling themselves, because nobody escapes having negative thoughts, right? It’s it’s, we’re programmed from the moment we’re born, right. As a kid you’re growing up, you want to do something? No, don’t do that. No, don’t touch that. No, don’t do that. Right. We get reinforced with no’s all the time. And as we grow up those that programming that we received – good, bad or ugly. Right? Is what stays and reinforces in our own minds conversation. So I’ve been doing 20 years of personal development, right? I’m a personal development junkie. I will admit it. The brain fascinates me. I like to read things about neuroscience for fun. And, and I still have negative stuff happening. So the person who says, oh, I don’t have any, that’s a very nice facade of, I’m fine. I’m fine. Don’t look behind the screen. Don’t look the man behind the curtain. It’s like the wizard of Oz. So for those who are listening and they think, oh, I’m good, I’m fine. Like, great. And start to notice throughout your day. Like I always say, how, how, what percentage of your thoughts are above the line or below the line? So above the line is I’m peaceful. I’m happy. I’m ecstatic. I’m joyful. I’m excited below the line is I’m numb. I’m bored. I’m anxious. I’m worried. I’m upset. I’m depressed. I’m despondent. Right? It’s all vibrational energy emotions are just vibrations. And so the lower you are on the scale that the darker it gets. Or the higher you are on the scale, the brighter it gets. And so just start to notice how much of your day is spent above the line or below the line. And if you’re spending more of your time below the line, well, then you might want to get some help from someone, right. It might be a coach. It might be a therapist. It might be in RTT specialist. It might be your, your pastor at your church, it might be a close friend. But to help you process and move through those, because if we don’t process those emotions, then they will get stuck. Right. One of my favorite quotes is emotions that cannot find their vent in tears will cause other organs to weep. Oh, right. So that’s Dr. Henry Maudsley from like the 1895’s.

Jenn DeWall:

So our emotions that cannot find their voice in tears will cause other organs to weep.

Michele Molitor:

I.e., if you don’t process that emotion it’ll get stuck and then it will manifest in some other way.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes!

Michele Molitor:

Right. Cause we’re really good at stuffing our emotions in the closets. I’m fine. I’m good. I don’t have any negative emotions. Right? But if you just allow yourself to feel your feelings and let them move through you, then they they’re like clouds passing in the sky. They just keep going by. But when you take that dark, dark cloud and you stuff it in a box, well then now you had a dark cloud in the box, in the closet, and eventually he got a whole stack of them. And then when are you going to do with it? So but we’re, we’re taught to not feel our feelings. We’re taught not to, to show our fear, our worries, or anxiety. We have to keep it all together and look good. But no, we don’t, it’s actually really detrimental to your mental health and wellbeing by suppressing your emotions.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I just thank you for sharing that quote. I think it’s, I hope that for the people that might have been initially listening to this kind of thinking, oh, this is another one of those woo-woo conversations that, you know, doesn’t impact me. It likely does. And maybe it’s just so rooted in your unconscious that you just haven’t, as you said, like paid attention to what’s below the waterline. This is just an opportunity to be more curious with yourself because we all have it. And I know even a lot of research I forget what podcast it was, you know, I was listening to Brené Brown, I forget the guests that she was interviewing and just talking about, even that burnout is a result of unprocessed emotions. You know? So if that’s a phrase that you understand, again, it’s tied to your emotions, so you’re a human being, you experience emotions, pay attention to them. And I like how you talked about you know, that dark cloud that you’re just putting it into a box. And maybe how I see that is I picture, and this is likely, I’m guessing the origins of this as a therapy term, but my husband and I just went through foster parent training and they really teach you to be aware of the invisible suitcase that a kid brings along.

It’s what you can’t see that is there. It’s with them the entire time. And knowing that every single child has an invisible suitcase, that it’s your job to try and hold space and to help. And I think, you know, that’s what that black cloud reminded me of is that invisible suitcase that we all carry.

So how do we see this show up when we’re a leader at work? Like what can this look like? So we’re talking about the unconscious, we’re talking about that, that cloud that’s in a box that is unprocessed emotions. How does this show up when we’re at work as a leader?

Accept that Your Personal Life Comes to Work with You

Michele Molitor:

Well, and that’s a great question, Jenn, because a lot of people think, oh, I leave my personal life at home when I come to the office. Yeah. Except if you, you know, if you stubbed your toe really badly in the morning, are you limping around the office? Yeah. When do you do, I’ll ask them, and they are like, oh, I stubbed my toe really bad. Yeah. It’s the same thing. If you had an argument with your partner, right. Or your roommate or whomever, right? You show up at work as a leader. If you’ve got this noise happening in the background in your mind, it’s a distraction. Right. And emotionally it creates a toll that keeps you from being fully present and fully focused. Right. on the work at hand another, another way of coping with that emotional noise from our other parts of our lives is to be a workaholic. As a recovering workaholic, I used work as a way to keep myself busy, so I didn’t have to feel the feelings that I didn’t want to feel because they were uncomfortable. That was really uncomfortable. I don’t want to look at that. Hey, look, I can sit at my computer for four more hours. Yeah. That’s a good idea.

And so as leaders, it’s really important to notice where is the edge of your comfort zone? Right. And noticing if I push past the edge of that comfort zone, am I going to die? Am I going to break? And what’s, what do I think is going to happen? If I do that thing that makes me feel really uncomfortable, right? And that might be as simple as speaking in front of a group, right. Or doing a big presentation for your boss and you get all nervous and anxious and worried and fretful and it has to be perfect. And it’s like, no, we’re all perfectly imperfect. Right. We talked about this the other day. And so just noticing what’s really needed here. And if I step beyond the edge of my comfort zone, what do I think is really going to happen? Not what my fear brain is telling me, but what my logical brain is telling me. Oh, well, I might, I might get something wrong, but I won’t die and I probably won’t get fired. So. Okay. And I’ll be human, just like everybody else. So it’s a way of giving yourself some more breathing room and giving yourself some grace.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. I mean, that hits me because I know even from the workaholic perspective, I’ve always been on the line, so I know you’re not supposed to be there, by the way. So it’s, it’s, this is work that we will continuously do. And I think there’s the ebbs and flows of life that push us there, pull us back or, you know, we level out. But yeah, it’s hard to turn off the workaholic brain for me because it’s, well, will I miss an opportunity? Will I, you know, do something like I have to keep hustling. And when I think about that, and the periods where I’m not working long days, then yeah. I feel like, well, Jenn, you’re not doing anything, so nothing’s going to happen. You know? So it is, that is the fear piece. And, you know, just saying it to other people, if you’re thinking about how this really shows up at work, it could be you being a workaholic. But on the flip side, it could also be how you manage the relationships at work or how you treat people at work, how you treat your customer. You can be extremely frustrated with yourself and then lash out at someone, even though that’s not who you are at your core, or maybe, you know, it’s not just overworking. Maybe it’s been holding people to an unrealistic expectation of performance.

Michele Molitor:

Yes. That’s very, very common. Right. You know, I always say that the fish rots or thrives from the head down, right. So if you have a chief cheese in charge that is a workaholic, they usually have a high bar for everybody else on their team. And so everybody else is spinning really, really fast. Right. And, and so you get to notice is that culture, the right culture for you to be a part of, right. Is it healthy for you? Is it a place that has you feel like you’re thriving or is it depleting you actually? In the long run, right?

And so that, you know what you were talking about that sense of, well, I’m not doing enough if you’re just resting, I’m not doing enough. That part of that is, you know, FOMO, fear of missing out. Right. Well, if I just do more, then I’ll be in the know I’ll be plugged in. Right. And I’ll have all these opportunities coming to me, but here’s a little secret Jenn, for you and everybody else who’s listening is that it takes balance. Right? We operate from our masculine and our feminine energy and our masculine energy. Is that doing, doing, doing that, getting from point A to point B that driving that accomplishing, whereas feminine energy is resting and receiving and allowing, right? So you can’t just like breathing. You can’t keep breathing out and not take a breath in. Right. You have to, you have to give and you have to receive, you have to give and you have to receive.

So when you learn to find that balance in your life of giving and receiving right. Resting and working. Then you’ll have more space. Right. And you’ll have more mental space to then have the creative juices to do the things that you really love with more energy, more vitality and not feel so depleted all the time.

The Rapid Rewiring Breakthrough Process

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Thank you for saying that, that really resonated the in, out of, you know, breathing in versa or breathing out all the time, like pushing forward, pushing forward doing, but like breathing in to reset. I love that example. So let’s, let’s dive a little bit more into RTT because I still feel like I can’t even appropriately remember what it stands for. That’s okay.

Michele Molitor:

Most people can’t, so we get some acronyms.

Jenn DeWall:

What is it doing in our unconscious like that process of RTT?

Michele Molitor:

So it is Rapid Transformational Therapy is a unique combination of what I think are the best of all worlds. Right? So it brings together cognitive behavioral therapy, neuro-linguistic programming and hypnotherapy. And I add in coaching to create my Rapid Rewiring Breakthrough process. Right. And so in this process, what we’re doing is essentially having you sit back and relax and you just listening to the sound of my voice. And as you listen to the sound of my voice, you becoming more and more relaxed. And as you become more and more relaxed, you’re allowing yourself to drift into a deeper and deeper state of rest and relaxation. And the more we go into it, the deeper you’re falling into this alpha brainwave state, that half-awake, half asleep place that we talked about a little earlier.

And in that place, your subconscious, the gateway to your subconscious is more available, right? So I’m able to literally have a conversation with that 90% of your brain versus the 10% of your conscious brain and, and ask simply what’s at the root cause of this feeling not enough, this feeling of I’m not worthy, I’m not valued, whatever that, that underlying core belief is, that’s driving you to work so hard. Right. And in that your subconscious mind is like a brilliant computer. It has all the information stored away, neat and tidy. Right. And it’ll bubble up to the surface, just the right information that you need to know in that moment. And we do this a few times and you’re able to connect the dots between what might seem like disparate events in your life. Right. And you’re able to go, oh, now I understand why those things have me behave this way now.

Right. So here’s a, here’s an amazing example. A woman that I worked with, she had unusually sweaty palms and feet. Right. I think we talked about this on our intake call. Right. And she had tried everything. It was embarrassing to her. She didn’t like it. And nothing seemed to really work. And so through the RTT, what we were able to determine was that she was really shy as a little girl. She didn’t like that her big sister got more attention than she did. And she felt scared when she had to be left on her own in front of her house. Her mom would have to leave her there and wait for her sister to come home while she went to work, all of these things in and of themselves, they make all sense. But when she put them together, she saw very clearly how, the sweating, the sweaty hands and the sweaty feet was the best way for her to process her emotions.

Because you weren’t allowed to cry. She was British. Right. Don’t cry, stiff upper lip. Right. But to also get more attention than her sister, right. So her subconscious decided, oh, we can kill two birds with one stone here. Right. We’ll just create this little sweaty palm thing, right. To help you process. Literally she crying from her hands and feet. Right. And was getting this extra attention from her parents, more than her sister. Except she kept going and it kept going and it kept going. And she was 43 when she, you know, showed up to do this work. And she was like, I can’t stand this. How do we, you know, and literally being able to put those dots together just as her body created it as a way to protect her and to serve her, we are able to say, you know, we don’t need that anymore. And we turned it off literally. And it was done.

Jenn DeWall:

That is powerful. That’s incredible. I mean, the gift that you gave your client, like that’s incredible, but I think it takes, I mean, it takes doing the work. It takes really wanting to do the work to understand that we all have those invisible suitcases or that unconscious that is either working for, or against us. And I know one of the things that we want to talk about is also how, you know, we take that and understand unconscious, and there’s a huge physical issue to all of us as individuals, whether you’re a leader or not, it’s just if you’re human, but then also understanding how your unconscious really will impact your ability to be a confident leader. And so let’s talk about how our unconscious can impact our confidence. What ways have you seen that? Well, you know, because we make these decisions about ourselves unconsciously at different points in our lives, not just when you’re a child, but all throughout your life, right.

What Are Your Confidence Killers?

Michele Molitor:

Something happens. You know, a significant other leaves, right. Just decides, Nope, don’t want to do this anymore or walking out. Right. And you’re like, whoa. And so then we unconsciously or consciously make a decision on, oh, I’m not good enough. I’m not worthy. I’m not lovable. Right. All of these decisions that we’ve made about ourselves are lodged in our subconscious and they impact how we show up. Right. And, and so if you’ve got decision points to say, no, don’t be too loud or don’t stand out or don’t toot your own horn. Right. That’s not what we do or that’s not how our culture does it, or that’s not how our family does it, whatever those beliefs are. It all can have a serious impact on your own level of confidence, which then has a huge impact on, on how you show up as a leader.

You know, as I lost my confidence back in 2000, it felt like it really got shattered. I’ve spent a lot of time researching, like where does confidence come from? And where do you find it? Is it in your back pocket? Where is it stored? Can I buy some at the store? I need another dose please? Whatever that looks like. And what I found is it’s these beliefs that we hold about ourselves, that, that dim our confidence. We’re born confident. We’re born with self-esteem and self-worth, and self-love, but over time, those things get stolen from us or they get clouded or shrouded because of the fears from our life experiences. And so all of that impacts how, how we do our jobs and how we move through the world to be safe. And so when you’re able to identify those hidden beliefs, those negative beliefs that we hold, and flip them, then your confidence naturally starts to rise and your energy expands. You’re lighter, you’re brighter, you’re more magnetic and you become more what’s the word I’m looking for. You resonate differently as a leader from that place. And it’s the, it’s the very subtlety of it that most people don’t realize. And it’s that thing that people have, has people lean in and go, wow, I really liked that, Jen, there’s something really amazing about her. She’s just so vibrant? And so people want that vibrant energy. A lot of people don’t have it. Right. And so they lean into leaders who have that je ne sais quois, that I don’t know quite what they have, but I want some of that, please. I’ll have what she’s having thing that allows them to show up a little bit differently and then inspires other people to want to step into their own confidence in new ways.

The Top 5 Confidence Killers

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I mean, I, oh my gosh, I’m so excited, because we’re going to get into your five confidence killers, now! And just reminding us, you know, as you were talking about that, I’m sure someone could listen right now. Think about when you maybe didn’t get that promotion that could have created a message saying you weren’t, you weren’t good enough. Or when you got a piece of feedback that was maybe less than beautiful, right? Less than glowing. And then all of a sudden you computed that as like, oh, that’s another way that I made a misstep. So these things can be small instances that combine and cumulate over time. And I just want people to pay attention to maybe how they’re processing some of that stuff, because we’re going to talk about what gets into your confidence now or what essentially kills your confidence. And that is the thing that you need to have influence to have your team want to follow you. So, Michele, what are the five confidence killers?

Confidence Killer #5 – The Habit of Discontent

Michele Molitor:

Oh, there’s a fun collection I found. And I like to count them down from five to one because they all have an impact, but the number one is just The Number One. So the fifth one number five is the habit of discontent. It’s that, Something’s not right, so let me do more, work more, have more to try to fill that hole of discontent. It’s that that sense of dis-ease. So we’re constantly looking outside of ourselves to fill that hole. So that’s where the habit of busy-ness starts. Right. So then we get caught in this swirl. I’m discontent. Maybe if I work a little harder than I’m really busy, but then I’m still discontent. Right. So that’s that constant searching, right. That can get on our way. And it’s that doing mode that masculine energy mode operating from there more and more and more of the time that can be really dangerous.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s me! That’s me right now!

Michele Molitor:

So how do you get unstuck from the habit of busyness? Well, first awareness is key. So you get to notice what you’re feeling, right. And then what are the complaints and the grievances that are constantly rolling through your head, right. As she get them out of your head and you write them all down and you can start to look at them like, oh, okay. So then once you’ve identified them, then what’s the one thing you can learn from that group of grievances. What’s the common denominator, the common thread, right? So let that information educate you, and then find the wisdom in it, the gift in it. And then have some gratitude for it. Like, oh, let me learn from this and then have some gratitude for it. Because as you have gratitude, when you focus on gratitude instead, it’s, it’s a sneaky little way to create a little burst of happy chemicals in your brain, you know, your dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins.

So the more you can focus on what you’re grateful for instead of what you’re not grateful for. The more you can step into that happier place versus that place of discontent, right? So that’s number five.

Confidence Killer #4 – Getting Caught Up in What-Ifs

Michele Molitor:

Number four is getting caught in the swirl of what ifs. What if it goes wrong? What if I don’t do a good enough? What if I get fired? What if I get stuck on the side of the road? What if, what if, what if, and that continued down and did this spiral all the way down the rabbit hole of, oh my God, blah. Right. It can be really, really stressful. So the trick to that is play the, What If Up Game with yourself. So instead of what if-ing yourself down into the pit, you can,

what if yourself up? So what if I do a great job? What if I get a raise unexpectedly? What if a stranger helps me unexpectedly? What if I get a free cup of coffee today? You can just, you can just flip it, right. Instead of making yourself anxious, you can make yourself excited, right? Again, creating a little burst of happy chemicals in your brain and making you feel good versus, or crunchy. Right.

Jenn DeWall:

So if you’ve got a big meeting coming up, instead of saying, what if this doesn’t work or what if this goes wrong? It’s what if all of a sudden they buy more than I expected? What if all of a sudden, I, you know, do I build a new relationship that leads me to a new introduction. That is such, I love that advice, Michele. I think that’s so great because there are so many anxious people that are playing the what if down game, but they could just benefit by shifting into the excitement.

Michele Molitor:

Yes! And it’s as easy as that. Right. It can be just that quick. They go like, okay, this is the negative what if? What’s the positive what if? Just flip it and then you get to choose, right. Chocolate, vanilla, choose. Which one do you want? It’s just a choice. Right. Neither right or wrong. But which one feels better, right? Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

You’re not gonna know either way until you do it!

Confidence Killer #3 – Toxic Environments

Michele Molitor:

Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So confidence, killer number three is toxic environments. How many here have ever worked at a toxic environment? That’s raising my, I see all those hands out there. Right. That’s why I work for myself now, because if I don’t like the client, I can fire them. If I don’t want to you know, it’s just that easy. So you get to start to look at, take a pause and look across the landscape of your life. Right. Do you have any toxic relationships in your family? Do you have any toxic relationship with friends? Do you have any toxic relationship with colleagues? Do you have a toxic home environment? Do you have a toxic work environment? Do you have a toxic community environment where it’s leaving you feeling depleted drained, crunchy, stressed, worried, fearful, right? If, if the energy or the receiving from those environments is having you tighten up into a ball and want to hide out, you probably got some toxicity going on in there. So you get to rate each one of those, right. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being super toxic, 1 being not really big deal. Right. And anything over a five, you need to take a serious, hard look at like, Hmm, what do I need to do to change this? Right. And it might be stepping away from a friend or a colleague.

I used to have a colleague years ago that I worked with, it was a negative Nelly blank and blank and blank complaint. And finally, one day I was like, wow, it sounds like you’re having really bad day. I have to go now, but I hope that gets better for you. So when you don’t buy into it instead of, oh my God, you’re right. Oh, that’s so horrible. Right. You’re basically feeding that negative Nelly. You’re feeding that toxicity. Right. But when you, I always say, just put on your coating of Teflon. Like, I’m really sorry, you’re having a bad day, but I got to go. Right. And you just leave them with their toxic present that they’re trying to hand off to you because they don’t want it. They are like here, take my poop. No, no, thanks. I really don’t want your poop today, but you have good day with that. Right? Blessings and love. And I got to go, right.

And so nine times out of 10, that person who’s got that toxic stuff that they’re trying to offload. Right. Because they don’t know how to process it. They don’t know how to be with it. They’ll go find somebody else to give it to. Right. So it enables you to raise your vibration. Right. And they’re going to go wherever they’re going to go.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that one’s so important because I just had this conversation with with a friend and she’s like, well, I can’t, you know, I’m so sick of my organization. It’s so toxic. People complain all the time. Well, you know what? Like you, you can like, I’ll call her Julia for lack of that. Like, Julia, you actually can separate from that individual. But there are so many people that use the excuse. Like, no I can’t, no I can’t. Yes you can. And if you aren’t just handcuffed to that person to hear their negative their negative response and take their, their gift. And I want, if you’re making that excuse to like, you are not handcuffed to that person, you can say, I love that- love and blessings to you, but I’ve got to go. It sounds like you’re having a rough day. So you’re thinking in your head that you can’t do that. You absolutely can. That’s just an excuse for not having accountability for dealing with that.

Michele Molitor:

Right. And, and I will say, I will say there are situations, right? For example, and this is an extreme, but you know, let’s say if you’re a woman in an abusive relationship, right there, there are these situations where it can be dangerous to try and leave. Right. And so you have to, you have to seek out the right help to be able to do that. Like making connections at an abused woman’s shelter, for example, so that you can do that and make sure that you’re safe. Right. Because we want everyone to be safe too. So, but in the work environment, right. It’s important to know that there are ways to maneuver through those waters, even if you’ve got a toxic boss. Right. it’s challenging, but it, but it can be done. And it, a lot of it has to do with you and how you’re standing in your confidence and how you’re responding versus reacting to their negativity. Right. There’s a big difference. You’ve got the knee jerk reaction and then you’ve got a thoughtful, let me take a breath and then respond. Right. So that could be a whole other conversation.

Confidence Killer #2 – Focusing on Your Failures

Michele Molitor:

So toxic confident killer. Number two is focusing on your failures. How often do we do this? Oh, I should have done this. Right. Oh, I could have done that. Oh. And we spin and spin and spin. And we spin because we forgot to cross the T or dot the I on the PowerPoint. And, oh my gosh, there was a typo. Right. and some people that’ll send them into a complete spin out, but in the big scheme of things, is it really gonna make a big difference? No. The best way to reframe it, I found is to think about it as if you were looking back on your life from your deathbed and in the grand scheme of things, how important is that thing that you’re spinning about? Right. And it gives you a whole different perspective. This is kind of a silly example, but I was talking to a dear friend of mine one day and I was like, oh gosh, I’m having such a bad hair day. She’s like, girl, any day you have hair is a good hair day. She’s a five time cancer survivor. Five times. I was like, oh, Mike drop. Right. I got great hair. I love my hair. Thank you. I have hair. Right. So it’s all in the perspective. It can change in an instant.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. Oh my gosh. Picture if that was your last day. How would you want to spend it worrying about that? You know, probably not. That’s a fantastic reminder. Yeah.

Confidence Killer #3 – Believing You Are Not Enough

Michele Molitor:

And then last but not least the ever popular number one confidence killer of all time is- I’m not enough. That belief, I’m not enough. I’m not worthy. I’m not deserving. I don’t provide value. All of that is kind of rolled up into that. I’m not enough simple statement. And it took me years and years and thousands of dollars of coaching and therapy and workshops and whatnot, to recognize that at the heart of my own stuff was that simple phrase. I was like, whoa, like mind blown kind of moment. And when you start to rewrite that and know I am enough, I am enough. I am enough, put little stickies, all of your house, put it in your car, sing a little tune to yourself, whatever you want. But the more you say it to yourself, right? The more it becomes true for you because your mind likes repetition. Right? Literally the more you think a thought, the more hard wired, those thoughts become a new neural pathways, right? So the more you remind yourself that you are enough, the more true it becomes for you.

And the more true it becomes for you, the more you own it, the more you stand more confidently, you stand taller, proud to be who you are and do what you do in the world. I had one client who came to me and through our work together, she cleared out these confidence blocks that she had, right? Like that. And her husband of 30 years was like, what did you do? You look different, you look taller. Like, like he’s like, you’ll look taller. What did you, what do you have on shoes? She’s like, no, just smiling right? Because when you really take back your power from that, I’m not enough fear. You really do. It’s like your energy expands and you’re right. Makes a huge difference. And again, it’s that intangible. Something’s different. What did you do? You look really radiant. It’s like when we, we see a woman who’s pregnant, right? You might not know she’s pregnant, but they got that glow to them because their energy is very, very different. So that’s what I love about the work that they do. It’s this really subtle work sometimes that you can’t put your finger on, but it makes a huge, huge difference for people and, and the happiness, the joy, the peace of mind that they feel, because they’re able to let go of this belief. I’m not enough. I’m not worthy. It creates anxiety, depression, physical ailments, and so much more. And it’s just, it’s really a gift to be able to do this work and to help so many people move that junk out of their trunks so they can live the life. They’re here to live in and be of service and the way they’re here to be of service.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I, you know, I think I love that final closing message of helping people recognize that you are absolutely more than enough. And I hope if there’s one thing everyone takes from this today, even though you’ve dropped so many valuable tools, tidbits, techniques, you know, just that reminder that you are more than enough, any thing you’ve ever heard or been told in any way, like you are more than enough, Michele, how can people get in touch with you?

How to Get in Touch with Michele

Michele Molitor:

Well you can always come visit me at MicheleMolitor.com, M I C H E L E M O L I T O R .com. And if you’re curious and you want to have a chat, I’m happy to have a complimentary discovery call with you. You can book it there on my website. And you know, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram. I have a fun group in Facebook called Rewire for Success, always dropping helpful tips and hints and inspirations there for folks. So yeah, and I just recently published my latest and greatest ebook called, Do You Have Imposter Syndrome? Six Triggers That Can Crush Your Confidence. So come to my website, you can download that for free and yeah. Happy to have a chat with folks.

Jenn DeWall:

Michele, thank you so much for taking your time to just share your insights and experience with The Leadership Habit audience. I am so grateful for you, and I’m just grateful that you could give everyone that reminder again, that they are enough and that they need to start tapping into that unconscious to create their success. Thank you so much for being here.

Michele Molitor:

Oh, thank you. It’s been my real pleasure. Jenn, as always, to talk with you. Thank you.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of The Leadership Habit with Michele Molitor. You can connect with Michele at nectarconsulting.com. You can also connect with her in her personal wellbeing website at MicheleMolitor.com. And there you can book your complimentary discovery call and you can also find her newest book on imposter syndrome. In addition, if you want to check out her bestselling book, Breakthrough Healing, you can find it on Amazon. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of The Leadership Habit. Until next time.

 

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Self-Care for Leadership Resilience with Jill Cruz, MS, CNS

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Jill Cruz. Jill Cruz, MS, CNS, specializes in weight loss, and she helps professional women over 40 enjoy the process of becoming the best versions of themselves. Jill has a Master of Science degree in Human Nutrition and is a Board Certified Nutrition Specialist. She combines her strong science-based background with tons of practical nutrition, fitness, and lifestyle guidance, helping women achieve greatness and happiness. And today on the show, Jill and I are going to be talking about how you as a leader can practice self-care so that you’re at your best. We’re going to be talking about stamina; we’re going to be talking about what you may be doing wrong. We’re going to be talking about a concept Jill coined called “healthy hedonism.”

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m talking to Jill Cruz. Now you may not know Jill, but you want to because we as leaders— if we want to do our job, if we want to create success, and heck, if we want to enjoy the life that we love— it’s got to start with our own self-care. And that’s going to be the conversation that Jill and I have today. I know it’s not the usual topic on our leadership skills, but it’s a very, very important topic that sometimes we as leaders feel too busy to address. So Jill, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Could you just tell our audience a little bit about you?

Meet Jill Cruz, MS, CNS

Jill Cruz:

Hi. Sure. Thank you for having me. So I live outside of New York City, and I’m a mom of two teenage girls. I had my own journey with struggling with my health and making sure that I was taking care of my body properly. And so that over the many years of working as a nutritionist led me to eventually start my own business, helping women to lose weight in a way that’s sustainable, healthy, and, dare I even say, pleasurable!

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t think that’s ever associated. Someone is like, losing weight? What? Pleasure? No, we think that we’re deprived of all of our pleasure—no more chocolate for you!

Jill Cruz:

That’s right. It’s one of the cornerstones of my work, actually, the pursuit of pleasure.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And it’s so important. Like how did you kind of become interested? Like what do you have a little bit more of a pain point, maybe that you experienced with your health that really made you open up your eyes and say, what am I doing? Something has to change.

Jill Cruz:

Yes. As a matter of fact, I do. I have a long, sordid history with what I call nighttime eating addiction. So when my daughter, who is now 19, when she was born, I started eating ice cream. Haagen-Dazs Bells and Chocolate, to be precise. And, I just, I ate it every night for years and years and years and years and years. And that eventually developed into this nighttime eating addiction. So dinner’s over, I’m not hungry, and I’m by myself in the dark, and everybody’s asleep. I’m eating this ice cream. And that actually lasted for 15 years at a certain point in time. It became, it shifted from ice cream to other foods, but essentially I had this problem and I, you know, the first seven or eight years, I didn’t even think it was a problem. I just thought it was normal for moms to want to de-stress. Uso, so eventually, I had to learn how to overcome that eating addiction and, and that sort of forms the foundation of all of the work that I do with clients.

How are You Managing Stress?

Jenn DeWall:

I think a lot of people can relate, and maybe it’s not necessarily the Haagen-Dazs at night, but maybe it is thinking about how are you managing your stress? What are you paying attention to? What are you maybe doing? And not even realizing that it can have adverse effects on your body and your health. I mean, whether it could be alcohol for some, it could be, you know, a variety of things. We’re going to talk about practicing self-care today. Why do you think this is so important? I mean, we know that burnout is on the rise. Like what are you seeing with your clients, with people that you work with? Why is self-care so important to you?

Jill Cruz:

Well, I think especially for people who would be listening to this podcast, if you’re a leader or if, really, if you’re a working person, whether it’s working at home with your staying at home, with your kids or working out in the workforce, we all need stamina. Stamina is a thing that probably comes more naturally to women than men, I think. But you know, the stamina piece is so important, and we just take it for granted that we should have enough energy to get up and do all the things that we have to do in the home and then go out and work and be in a good mood all day, be nice to people and be productive. That requires stamina. And the other really important piece around this is stress management because we all are so stressed out. I mean, we are not designed to cope with chronic stress in the way that we are required to these days. So we have to set or build into our lifestyle a way to manage that stress. Otherwise, we’re, again, we’re not going to have the stamina. We’re not going to be as productive. We’re not gonna be happy, and most likely, we won’t be sleeping well at night as well. So there are a lot of downstream effects of not caring for your body while trying to be a super person, a superwoman or Superman, whatever it is. I see

Jenn DeWall:

I think the biggest way that I neglect self-care is when I’m in a burnout cycle that I feel like I might stay up a little bit later. I watch probably very bad television just to kind of- what I would say- turn my brain off. But then I compromise my sleep, and I do. I have a natural, I would say I have a natural, positive, upbeat personality, but when I am fatigued, I am not that person. I’m also more irritable. I’m not as loving and open-minded. I definitely don’t practice curiosity because my brain does not have time to think about that. It just has time to make a quick judgment. And I, you know, as a leader, that’s, it’s just so important because I think we don’t recognize that we could manage our teams in a different way. If we showed up in a different way, we could have, you know, more engaging and deeper, meaningful conversations with people.

If we were just practicing self-care by getting enough rest, making sure that our stamina is where it needs to be. Because I think sometimes, then maybe this is just me, but I’m guessing some other people can relate to this, sometimes I can even get resentful when someone asks for something when I’m tired, like why would you even ask that of me? Like, I don’t have time for that. You know, we, we have a tendency to go into that victim state of like, everything’s happening to me instead of feeling like I actually control my life. And so when we see, I just love this topic. Why do you think people still treat it as an afterthought? Like why do we know better? I know this, but I can still tell you that I’m not necessarily doing everything to manage it. So why do we know better? We know that self-care is important, but we don’t DO better?

Learning to Listen to Our Bodies

Jill Cruz:

Well. I think there are a couple of different things. One, we are not taught in our society. Maybe other cultures do this, but I know in American society, we are not taught to pay attention to our bodies. We all have this incredible body wisdom that we’ve— I think in on the opposite end— we’ve been actually taught to ignore it. So if you’re not really paying attention to it— now I’m not a fan of becoming obsessed about it. Every little ache and pain and situation, you don’t want to be obsessed about it, but certainly, we want to be paying attention. If you’re tired, that’s a message from your body. Something’s not right. But we are; it’s really ingrained in us to ignore that. Not even to not pay attention to it, but to ignore it. And I think that’s a big factor. And then, of course, our, well, I live on the east coast, but I think in any, you know, any like major city majorly populated area, it’s go, go, go, go, go.

We are not rewarded for being relaxed and chill and calm. There is no reward for that in our society. On the flip side, we are rewarded for getting more done and being more productive and, you know, just working all the time. So I think societally, we’re not. It’s just not encouraged. And there is lip service paid to it. For sure. You could go to any corporate website and see: we are dedicated to the health of our… And some companies are more dedicated than others, but generally speaking, I think it’s really just lip service. It’s not true. Day-To-Day, oh, the people above me and the people below me actually recognize that self-care is important. Like, yeah, I don’t see evidence of that.

Jenn DeWall:

I think you’re absolutely right. Very rarely. I’ve never sat in an organization where they’re handing out awards, and they’re like, you know what, Jill, we really just want to acknowledge you for practicing healthy work-life integration, making sure that your health is there. I mean, I’ve never seen that in a meeting. I’ve seen it in the form of benefits and getting maybe incentives to, you know, get a gym membership or do something, but it’s never in the culture. And I love that. You talk about it being something that we just ignore that I don’t want to say that the people in your culture are bad people because they’re not doing this. Again, we’ve all been conditioned to ignore it. And, and of course in, or we have those generational lessons may be like, you know, as you were talking about like, don’t complain, keep going, put your head down, be productive, let it go. It’s not that big of a deal. Like, I don’t think people recognize how many of those messages really were given to them. Maybe through observing it in their first career or just from maybe a parent or teacher or friend saying what they needed to do that is maybe just in the opposite of what your body actually needs.

Jill Cruz:

Yeah, it is. It’s ingrained in our culture. I’m guilty of it. You know, I had to sort of retrain myself, but the thing is that when you’re 25, that when you’re 35, your body usually can keep up for most people. But once you hit 45, 55, 65, your body is just like, sorry! You know, there are going to be detrimental effects where you’re ignoring me. Like, you know, belly fat is a very common thing, which is oftentimes due to stress. So you know, fatigue, aches, and pains, not being able to go on five hours of sleep anymore, where you used to be able to, I have a client who has a high, high-stress job. She has a leadership position. And she says to me, like ten years ago, I was, I could do this. Now she’s really struggling.

Finding Energetic Resilience

Jenn DeWall:

It’s hard! I think I’ve noticed a switch, and maybe it’s because 40 is right there for me. And I’ve just noticed that switch. I don’t have the same stamina. I don’t have the same. I would say energetic resilience. If that’s the phrase? To be able to bounce up, wake up in the morning, and just be enthusiastic. Like I, it’s so much more apparent that if I don’t prioritize sleep, I’m not going to have a great day. If I don’t prioritize sleep, I’m not going to be the best person that I can be. Or if I, you know, neglect my body or don’t work out. I guess the thing I’m pretty motivated to work out, and that’s more or less out of a place of fear. It’s not necessarily from a proactive place. I have MS so that I have this non-scientific belief that if I don’t move it, then my brain will stop like, you know, telling me and supporting me. And so I work out every day, I walk or do something of some sort, but it’s not necessarily for preventing burnout. Right. I do it because I’m afraid of this. But I think, you know, one thing that I got from my dad had a sterile, you know, ten years ago and one of the therapists said, and maybe this is a common therapist term, but if you don’t use it, you lose it. And so that’s kind of been the thing that I’ve really been trying to be mindful of and knowing that as we get older, that only becomes more true. Like your body does start to kind of shut down. What’s your take on that? With what, with where you see people going.

Jill Cruz:

Oh, it’s huge! The older you are, the more imperative it is that you are physically active. You can get away with it when you’re 25. When you’re 65 is just, it’s all downhill. Either, either you’re working against it and kind of try and keep off the aging as much as you can. Or you are. You’re losing muscle for sure. Like once you hit mid-forties, everybody’s losing muscle unless you’re actually doing something to slow that process down. And there’s a ton of research around physical activity, even, even just muscle mass on, on your body correlating with all kinds of health outcomes. So it’s absolutely important. And one thing that you’ve kind of touched upon a little bit that I really want to emphasize is that you know, people listening to this podcast, if you’re a leader, do you want to be just, okay, cause I bet you, a lot of people listening, I would imagine that they have some health practices because you don’t get to be very successful in life without doing some of these things.

So that’s great, but there’s always room for improvement. And so, being at your best means being, as you mentioned, in a mood where you can be calm, where you’re not reactionary all the time. You can handle stressful situations in a much more calm way because you’re well-rested because you’re physically active because you’re eating the right foods that are fueling your brain properly. It’s all interconnected. So, so I just wanted to put that out there. And like some people maybe need a lot of work. Some people need less, but I think as a leader, and I consider myself a leader as well. My business is me. I have to take care of myself or my, if I don’t, my business will fail direct directly because I’ll be like you said, not in the best mood or I won’t have the motivation or the energy, the what did you call it? Resilience energy?

Jenn DeWall:

My energetic resilience, my made-up phrase!

Jill Cruz:

I love that you need energetic resilience all day long. You’re using willpower. You’re using willpower to be nice. When you want to be me to focus and concentrate, you’re using the central executive network function. You know, it’s the part of your brain where you’re focused, focused, focused. Your brain has to have the basic requirements for healthy functioning in order to do that at your best.

How Do We Start Practicing Self-Care?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And do everything at your best. And I just want to emphasize for those that might even be listening to this like, oh, I’m about ready to turn this off because it’s not giving me this, this tool. This quick fix may be a problem you’re having. And I don’t want to minimize that problem, but I do want to still a good and bring awareness that we continuously ignore the conversation of self-care and mental health. We just think I’ll deal with it tomorrow. I think a lot of us have the I’ll deal with it tomorrow. I’ve got more important things today. This is important. And so, Jill, where do you start? Like, because self-care is so broad. I know we could likely go down the rabbit hole of the top tips that many people have heard, but where do you start? What does self-care even mean?

Jill Cruz:

Well, I would definitely very, very strongly emphasize to anybody listening that it starts with where you think it starts. Everybody is individual. So for one person, it may be, I need to focus on sleep. For another person, it may be, I know my breakfasts are just not the best. Or maybe it’s stress management or mindset. You know, mindset is a big piece of all of this. So I highly recommend that you kind of take stock of your life almost like you would evaluate any situation in the business environment. You can do that for yourself and see what most people know. When, when new clients come to me, they’re just talking, they’re telling me all the bad things that they’re doing. They know. So, so I would say that I, I wouldn’t have a blanket statement that everybody should start here. I think it needs to be individualized.

There are two ways to look at this. One is low-hanging fruit. So if you know that your breakfast is not great and you can easily fix that, do it! If maybe you also know that your sleep is not great, but it’s overwhelming to think about dealing with that, just start with a good breakfast. And then, you know, so you don’t necessarily have to start with the biggest problem. You could also start with something that’s just a quick win because once you get that quick win, now that you’re eating a better breakfast, your brain is functioning better throughout the day. Now maybe you do have more wherewithal to address other issues.

Start With the Low-Hanging Fruit

Jenn DeWall:

You know, I want to touch on two things that you just said, like the mindset piece, but first, I want to go into the low-hanging fruit. Because again, I think, I guarantee that the people that are listening to our podcast, right, the people that are listening to a podcast or type are typically probably thinking, what can I do to better myself. They’re very motivated. They’re ambitious. And so then thinking, yeah, when they look at the self-care, I think many of them will pick the biggest piece. Well, I’ve got to make sure that I’m working out every single day for 45 minutes a day and then change my diet out once and done, make sure I’m sleeping. And we are so- in a beautiful way- driven and ambitious, but we don’t recognize like failure’s likely right around the corner that follows your discouragement or whatever cycle comes with it.

Jenn DeWall:

And so I just love your prescription of really thinking, what is your low-hanging fruit? And please don’t try to do everything. Just start to practice self-care. Or start to, you know, if you already have a routine, what’s the other piece that you already know, as you said because we’ve basically done that SWOT analysis of our own health, like, and what are our threats? So on and so forth. What is the thing that you need to do that you’ve been maybe avoiding or haven’t prioritized? And I mean, and at what expense, like, I think people need to start to, I don’t know how you feel about this, and maybe this is a bad way to motivate people, but getting people to think as they get older, what are truly your consequences? If you don’t wake up now, what is it going to cost you?

Jill Cruz:

I mean, that’s – so we, as humans, are more motivated by short-term consequences. We will like to think things like, well, I don’t want to be like my mother who had health problems or whatever. I’m afraid of getting cancer. Those tend to be motivational factors, but they’re more long-term, and we’re just hard-wired to favor the short-term. That’s just, I mean, if you think about how we lived in very intense environments, we had to favor the short-term threats or positive or negative consequences. So so I do recommend thinking about those short-term, you can think about the long-term, but get some short-term as like full them. If there’s a feedback loop, it could be a negative feedback loop. Like, oh, if I eat that pizza at 10:00 PM, I’m going to wake up in the middle of the night with heartburn. That’s a negative feedback loop, which motivates people. Or it could be, well, if I don’t eat that pizza, tomorrow morning I’m going to have more energy to go to the gym and workout. And that could be a positive feedback loop. So definitely having those consequences, but the short term or a much more powerful and yeah, there was something else you said that I wanted to-

Jenn DeWall:

I think that ties also into the mindset piece of like, well, start to look at this as a mindset, not just an action that you’re taking to better your health, but just what’s your point of view on it? I mean, you know emotional intelligence is important for a leader. We know that we need to observe our surroundings. We need to pay attention to, you know and have self-awareness and self-management. So we need to also then transfer and apply this to the mindset of our health care. Like you or of our health. You’ve got to start to take responsibility, your self-awareness, and your health. Like I get, I think we can take stock of my self-awareness might be really high of what I do and don’t do in my career, what I need to do, what I don’t do. And then, I might take a lot more actions and understand those positive and negative feedback loops.

But then, I am still discarding the fact that I need a body to be able to do all of it. Like I still just minimize all of that. So the mindset piece, I just wanted to talk a little bit more about that. Like, I mean, I don’t know if there are any blocks that you typically see what someone’s mindset like, I don’t know. I mean, I guess the number one that I would think of because I hear it in terms of, you know, just different reasons why people don’t take action. And what I hear is time. I don’t have time. I don’t have time, don’t have time. So when you thought, what do you, what do you say for your clients? Or how do you help them adjust that mindset piece?

Having a Self-Care Mindset

Jill Cruz:

Well, people come to me, usually highly motivated, because my specialty is weight loss. So people are usually ready. And when they commit to working with me or my team, they are really highly motivated. So they may not come up with those types of so-called excuses, but if they do, and that often will come up as we’re working together more long-term. To me, there is always a solution. If you want it, there’s always a solution. It should not be difficult, challenging, this horrible journey. It should not be that way. So what I do and what I think any healthcare practitioner should do, is ask, how can we make this easy for you? Not hard. It’s like, oh, you should be exercising. You should be eating well. That mindset is like you were saying earlier, you’re already setting yourself up for failure. There’s really not a lot of other things that we endeavor to do.

Jill Cruz:

Like if you want to learn to play the guitar, I’m not going to ask you to play a song on the first day. I’m going to ask you to start very simply. Just give it five minutes a day. Why do we think that with healthcare practices, like exercise or nutrition that we have to be that perfect Instagram person in a week or a month, or even a year? It’s ridiculous. So I think that mindset of, I mean, 90% of what I do is a mindset. Really. Most of it is that, but there’s always a way if someone is coming up with excuses. There’s a reason for that. And we, we can explore that. Sometimes. It’s just. It’s hard. Yeah, definitely. Excuse. It’s hard. Okay. Well, why is it hard? What is it about it? And sometimes, it really is true logistical problems. My schedule is X, Y, and Z. All right, well, let’s see if we can work with those things, but if you find yourself wanting to take care of your body but coming up with excuses, either you’re not really committed because when people are committed, they do it. They do it. And a lot of times, unfortunately, work is a big blocking factor. Like, I literally don’t have time. Okay, well, maybe there’s a deeper conversation that needs to happen around that. I don’t mean to encourage anybody to quit their jobs or, you know, close up their businesses. But-

Jenn DeWall:

I will! I will! You, your life, and your health is starting to be at a detriment. You need to examine whether or not you are in the right career. I, you know, I will say that. And I know that sometimes people are like, I don’t know, but you can still, I guess for me, and this might be my own personal plea of passion is you have one life. You’ve got to make sure that you have the body and mindset and health to be able to live it, to enjoy it to the best of your ability. So I will say that! Like, do you need to reflect and leave a job, maybe? And I’m not saying that it’s going to be an easy decision, but you’ve got to prioritize yourself.

Jill Cruz:

Yeah. And it’s also again, and I love feedback loops. I love them. In biochemistry, a lot of the things that go on in your body, the reactions, their feedback, there’s tons of feedback loops in the body. So I love talking about them. But the feedback loop here is if you can just do a little bit in the beginning and start to feel a little bit better, have a little bit more energy. Guess what happens? You are more productive. You have that stamina, and you have that mental capacity, that mental focus. So you actually can get more work done in the same amount of time. That, for me, has always been the pursuit. How can I get be more productive in the same amount of time or less? How do I do that? Well, I have to absolutely be at my best. There’s no way because I know there are days when I’m not at my best, and I can tell there’s a huge difference in my productivity. A lot of it’s just energetic, you know, either pure energy, which you could call stamina, but also mental energy, patience drive, just having the drive to do something. Where does that come from? That comes from your physiology, your biochemistry working well. For the most part, again, when you’re 25 and you’re super ambitious, you can pretty much push through all of that.

Jenn DeWall:

I remember when I was able to push through it, I can’t do it anymore. So if there are some young 20 somethings, enjoy this, but try to think about how you can position yourself or when maybe your body isn’t as resilient as it was.

Jill Cruz:

And you could always be better. I mean, it’s like if I knew the stuff, I know now when I was 25, wow. I mean, I could’ve gotten a lot more done.

Healthy Hedonism

Jenn DeWall:

Right. I just, and I love that. And that is the thing because now when I think about being older, like as I’m getting older, you know, productivity like I want to be my best all the time. I want to do my best to it is so important to me. And so I’m now I’m starting to notice natural things. Like, no, I, I don’t want to go to that dinner tonight because then I know I won’t get to bed until late. And you know, there’s that conscious trade-off. It’s not that I feel like I’m missing out in any way. It’s just that I love being at my best. And that self-care feels so good. And then when you experienced the pain, when I compromise that or, you know, the misery that I experienced, and it’s not that it’s true misery, but it is cognitive like cog-fog, or not being able to think clearly. Or I end up being more, you know, short-tempered, which is not the way that I want to be. Like when you experience those painful moments or misery moments, I’m just, you know, that much more motivated to be like, yep. Gonna reinforce that next decision. So I want to bring it into a concept that you talk about because I love it. Healthy hedonism, what the heck is a healthy hedonism, Jill?

Jill Cruz:

So I was, I came up with this concept, and there is this, there is such a thing. This is not—I didn’t. In other words, hedonism is inherently kind of almost a little bit of a negative connotation, but there is such a thing as positive hedonism. So that’s where you are. You are pursuing feeling good, but in a way that’s beneficial to you. So it’s not a negative pursuit. And so the way that I kind of came up with it as I think there are three major pieces to help. And the first is, well, there’s no first or last they kind of go feed off of each other. And body wisdom is one aspect of it. It’s very important for us to understand our bodies and listen to our bodies. And I have guidance that I give clients on how to do that.

Jill Cruz:

It’s not a talent. It’s a skill. So if you’re not used to tapping into your own body wisdom, it does take some knowledge and some practice, but you can. You can pick it up pretty quickly. So there’s body wisdom, and there’s the pursuit of pleasure, which we said in the beginning, weight loss should not be pleasurable. No, actually, if it’s not pleasurable, you are doing something wrong. Whether it’s weight loss or just trying to be, you know, just emphasizing your health, your self-care. If it’s miserable, if you are miserable doing it, you need to stop and figure out something that’s actually pleasurable because that’s sustainable. And, and then the other piece of it is what I call radical self-acceptance. Because, and especially for high-functioning, high-performing people, the self-criticism and the blame and the regret can be overwhelming. And so, by allowing yourself every day, this is a practice. This is not we’re again, and we’re not born with this tendency, not at all. We have to work against that tendency to self-criticize by waking up every day and saying, you know what? I love and accept myself for who I am right now, right here, no matter what. And that’s its radical self-acceptance, the pursuit of pleasure and body wisdom. And those three components kind of form the foundation of my work.

Jenn DeWall:

I love these concepts because it’s not just exclusive then to what are you doing for your food, for your exercise. And I want to dive a little bit deeper into the three of the three aspects or facets of healthy hedonism, so radical self-acceptance, body wisdom, and pursuit of pleasure. I am extremely passionate about, you know, radical self-acceptance, and I love that you talked about we’re not born with it. And I would actually argue that we’re also never educated to do it. What I find in my work as a coach is that so many people, and I’m sure you see this too, is that so many people were maybe brought up to look at yourself and like, say there’s always something that you could be doing better, like, or don’t even say that you’re doing something well, because then you’re too overconfident or cocky and like slow your roll.

And so, I think it created what I see with my clients. And I’m sure you see this too. Is that an over-reliance on external validation? Just wanting to make sure other people are telling us that we’re getting it right. Instead of saying, wait, but do I think by my standards, by my efforts, my experience, I’m getting it right? I mean, it is the saddest thing. And I know that I suffer from it. I think many people do it is so hard to reprogram and rewire that brain. Just say you are enough just as you are. Even if you made that big mistake, you’re still going to be fine and so, radical self-acceptance. What are some of the ways that you see or maybe recommend people to start? Because self-acceptance is hard when we’re trying to combat those maybe messages that come up that say, I don’t know, Joe, don’t do that. Like you’re bragging now about yourself or, you know, you never really did it that well. I mean, I have an expert at shaming myself. I’m so glad that Brene Brown came around just to be able to give a name to what that is. Because as someone that’s very driven, a lot of my drive comes from telling myself that I suck or I’m not good enough or that I’m constantly missing the mark. And so, yeah, I’m curious what your thoughts are on that.

Self-Care, Self-Awareness and Self-Acceptance

Jill Cruz:

Well, a lot, a lot, a lot of thoughts. I think one thing that has been one piece of my work that I take a lot of pleasure in is holding space for being that presence in someone’s life, who I am a hundred percent accepting and loving. So sometimes, even though you’re talking about this sort of endogenous feeling of- endogenous means from within the body, exogenous means from outside of the body, right? So this external approval and that sort of thing, we are sort of hard-wired to seek that out. And I think that comes from when we’re babies, you know, we, we want to get love and attention. So we’re going to try to please people like this is starts from birth. So it is a hard one to kind of just say, oh, well, I’m just going to accept myself now. Yeah, I’m done with that.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But so, so it’s not easy. And sometimes, it does help to have an outside person who will hold that space for you. It could be your mother, it could be your therapist, you know, and not all of us can have that, but it’s, it is a piece of this. And I think the other piece is being present. So we, we tend to, again, especially ambitious, successful people. We’re always thinking about what’s next? What am I doing next? How how, how can I do that? Oh yeah, I did that. It was great. But how can I do that better next time? That same tendency. So, just being present for a few minutes every day is a great place to start, just even in the morning, getting up and just taking some deep breaths and just being present and saying, you know, I am right here, right now.

It’s almost like a meditation, and the meditation is great for that. But I like to kind of maybe do a slow walk or that for me, cause I’m a physical person. I will walk, and I’ll just pay attention to my inner and my outer. So what do I smell? What do I see? What do I feel? And that sort of like a moving meditation, that one, when you’re present, you’re blissful. It’s when we’re worried about the future of the past or things we can’t control that we start to get into trouble. So that’s really important. And I tell you, I mean, there’s a lot of research on gratitude and just taking a few minutes every day, maybe at the end of the day or at the beginning of the day, to write down the things you appreciate that you have done. I have done this. I am this.

Really, because sometimes we need again, especially really smart, driven people. I want the facts. Yeah. I’m not going to sit here and try to convince myself that I’m, that I weigh 120 pounds when I weigh 190. That’s ridiculous. I’m never going to believe that. But the fact is that I did this today, and I am motivated to take care of my body. So, so if you can find in when you’re writing your appreciation or thinking about it, actual factual things that I think goes a long way, instead of believing me, I love woo-woo. I love woo-woo stuff. I love mantras. You know, I love the idea of being positive, but it’s, it’s hard to do that. Let’s face it. So coming back to real facts, I think, can help us. Like I did this project, and I succeeded this way, and therefore I am somebody who is good at X.

Showing Gratitude for Yourself

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Yeah. And I think that you know, to everyone listening right now, I think it’s a great reminder that it’s not just writing down, you know, a gratitude list. Like I’m grateful for, you know, the food that I get to eat or the shelter that I have. And yes, there’s absolutely a place for that gratitude. But what, you know, what I heard you say is that we’re grateful for, you know, I’m grateful for my accomplishments. I am grateful for what I did well today. Like, and, or I am proud of myself. Like I am proud of myself that I got up and hit the gym, or I’m proud of myself that I took the time to create a to-do list to really be more structured and productive. And I think we breeze past some of those things, but you don’t have to do anything on any given day.

So what you do can also be recognized and rewarded. And I just to set a reminder, what she’s saying is to write down what you’re grateful that YOU did. Not like something, it’s what you did. So, so just cause I think people aren’t used to seeing themselves, we’re so used to seeing other people, and they might be like, I don’t know, I don’t do anything special. I’m not X, you know, insert all that negative self-talk that can come up, or we just don’t see ourselves, but just starting to see ourselves and how strong, how smart, how valuable you are as an individual. I love that, Jill, like just, it’s not just writing that gratitude list. It’s thinking about what did you do? Or your achievement list or whatever.

Jill Cruz:

Yeah. I mean, it’s your personal bragging time. But the other thing that I think really helped me was to think about any baby that you have ever met in your life. A six-month-old baby, that baby has—I think pretty much almost everybody would agree that— that baby is entirely lovable and worthy of love. And we accept, I mean, that baby can poop on your hand, and you just wash it off. It’s a little gross, but you still love the baby. And I think if you can remember that you were a baby, all of us listening to this and talking here, we were all lovable babies worthy of unconditional love, and we’re- that’s still us. That’s still within us. So sometimes, I just try to fit. I have a friend who’s a relationship therapist. And she says she has a picture of herself when she was a little girl. And she reminds herself that she was a little girl one day and, and that little girl was a hundred percent worthy of love. And we all have that, even though we’re adults and we’re messy, and we’ve done bad things, and we have regrets, we’re still all worthy of that love. And I think that’s a very powerful kind of practice again, to remind yourself of that.

Checking in With Your Body

Jenn DeWall:

I love that message because when it comes down to self-care, I think if we don’t see ourselves as lovable, then it’s really easy to just say, who cares if I don’t take care of myself because I’m not this. So really like for those listening, like recognize that those connections are happening and you are totally lovable. You are, you know, fantastic. And I love that. You said this too. We are all messy. We are all messy. None of us are perfect. Perfection doesn’t exist. We are all messy. And it’s okay if you’ve made mistakes like you are still lovable. Okay, let’s go. I know we don’t have a lot of time left. The second aspect, body wisdom. Now this one, you know, you talked about sleep and nutrition. How do you really gain more awareness? Like, are there any tips and tricks that you have around gaining awareness to really check in with your body?

Jill Cruz:

Absolutely. I have six factors that I ask my clients to pay attention to or anybody who will listen! And you can write them down. You can rate them, which is kind of nice on a regular basis. So there’s energy, mental clarity, mood, hunger, cravings, and gastrointestinal function. So if you are really honing in on those- again, not being obsessive about it, like, oh, I had gas today. Oh, dear. No, like, I mean if you had guests every day for the past three weeks. There’s a problem. So anything that’s consistently a problem, whether it’s fatigue, you know, mid-afternoon fatigue or moodiness, we are meant to have calm, sustained energy from morning till night. We are meant to become even-keeled and peaceful. That’s our default as humans, actually. And, except for in crisis, we’re very good at responding to a crisis. But then we go back, and just like animals, you see an animal can be super stressed out, but then once that situation is over, they are chill. That’s how we’re supposed to be.

And so, and mental clarity, if you have brain fog, that’s assigned from your body. And so these factors, we can pay attention to them. Now, you’re, now you can start to see a pattern and maybe also use, keep track of what you’re eating. Maybe your sleep time, your physical activity, you know, it’s up to you, how far you want to go with this. But I will certainly say that if you’re tired all the time, that needs to be investigated. That is a message from your body, and we need to listen to it. And your body will give you a lot of feedback and information if you just pay attention.

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, and again, if you’re, if anyone listening is, is suffering from chronic stress, this is real, you know, your body is going to continue to tell you that, that it’s in stress mode and it’s not functioning well, I had a really good friend that had very bad stomach issues or gastrointestinal issues, and they were all stressed induced. I have interviewed people on this podcast that have had facial paralysis, all stress-induced. Your body is very, very connected to the stress that you are under at work. And we know that it can show up as a heart attack. It can show up as these things, as we get older, we’ve got to start to connect, and maybe you don’t have to take it. I love that you gave space. No, I’m not saying that you have to do a food journal. Take it however you want to, but start to at least pay attention and recognize that it’s on you to take responsibility for that because you know what, you matter.We want you here. We need you to do a good job, your family, you. And so you’ve got to start to say, what piece do I own? And maybe it’s just starting to look at your sleep because you are feeling consistently tired, or maybe it’s starting to look at your workload and say, maybe I need to ask for help. I just love this conversation.

Self-Care and The Pursuit of Pleasure

Jenn DeWall:

Our last thing is the pursuit of pleasure. And I think that this is so important because again, how many people dread, maybe if they make a new year’s resolutions, they’re like, well, here goes my next month where I won’t be able to enjoy anything. And I’m on this new diet, and I’m doing this, but it doesn’t have to be that way because that’s where the mindset piece comes into it. So tell me, what are your tips and techniques to help us really get behind that pursuit of pleasure and not looking at this as a chore, but making it not a should, but a want! This is exciting.

Jill Cruz:

Yeah. I mean, first, you have to have that motivation, that inspiration to make the change. And that’s where people start. And then yes, they usually end up on some crazy diet for 30 days, and then they go back to where they were that’s miserable. Right? So that’s really important. Some other things that I often talk about, and we sort of talked about it. I want to. I was thinking about it earlier, too, is planning and strategizing. These are very important. Many of the problems that people have with diet and lifestyle practices are they just don’t plan. So I have a client I’m working with, and she’s, she said, you know, I don’t know what’s wrong. I just can’t do that. We’ve been working together for a couple of months, and she still hasn’t gotten the exercise at all. So I said to her, I said, look, this weekend, I want you to sit down, and I want you to write down how you can fit in 10 minutes of exercise four days a week.

And I want you to not only write down when, but what, and how. If you have a plan, it’s so much easier to do things. If you have a plan, so that’s vital. And then another piece is the environment. We are subject. We are products of our environment. So if you think that you’re going to eat really healthily while someone is leaving potato chips and donuts and crackers and all kinds of things on the counter, you’re setting yourself up for failure, right? So so those pieces are really important. And then what I call training, we gotta train ourselves, and that’s really habits and habits have become much more popularized in the past few years. Pretty much everybody knows. You want to start small, almost laughable. So that’s why it’s 10 minutes or five minutes, not an hour jumping into something, or it’s, you know, every day when I come home, I have all these cravings. So instead of just leaving it to chance and my low willpower at the end of the day, I’m going to have carrots or something healthy in the fridge. And I was just reading a study yesterday. We, we are more likely to choose the food that’s the first thing we see in the fridge, as opposed to the second, third, fourth, or fifth. So have the healthy food front and center push all the crappy stuff to the back because your brain will take that first thing that you see. So set up your environment for success, not failure. Have your gym clothes out, ready to go. Know what time you’re working out. What you’re doing? What’s your plan. That’s my client’s problem. She says I like to walk. I like to dance. I have these weights; well, have a plan. And that’s about. I think being strategic. You, sorry, just one little last piece with the habits is once you have done something often enough, the motivation and the willpower switch can be turned off, and you’ll still do it. Habits are magical, magical, powerful things. They’re not infallible. You can have a habit for a year, and then you can stop. I know that, but it’s your biggest supporting factor in terms of living a healthy lifestyle. Habits. Because if you have to rely on willpower lives, I always say willpower is unreliable. Habits are reliable. So and, the path to building a habit is long, and it should be fun, and it should be gradual. Once you get there, it’s like, oh, this is easy.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that recommendation. I guess like the personal thing that I do, I’ve been, you know, I bought an apple watch at the end of 2020, and a lot of my friends have them. And so we’ve just been doing challenges. And now it’s to a place that we’re, you know, we’re either competing against as a team against another team, or we’re doing it individually, but I have really embraced gamification. And because of, you know, streaks, the, you know, they just tell you how many days you’ve worked out, or you hit your targets. Now I’m at. I don’t even know if I’m at 170 days. Like it’s something like that. I don’t want to break my streak. So that is also the other thing that keeps me going. Like, I love that. I can say that there are 100 days that I, you know, made sure that I stood once an hour, that I hit my activity goal, that I also hit my move goal in terms of caloric burn. And that makes me feel proud. And it doesn’t necessarily. It doesn’t matter how I get there every day. I don’t have to go down and do an intense CrossFit workout. I can just walk outside, but I just love that I have a manageable goal. Jill, what would be any last, you know, messages that you would want our audience to know?

Jill Cruz:

I think what’s coming to mind for me right now is to go easy on yourself. You, if you are a leader, you’re a successful person. That means that you’ve accomplished a lot in your life, and take a moment and appreciate that. And, and so I talk about this concept of the balance between striving and thriving. So w striving means, you know, you’re, you set your goals, you’re working towards your goals, and thriving means stopping and smelling the flowers. And we need to have a balance of both. If you’re always thriving and you’re always just smelling the flowers, you’re not going to move forward in life. But on the flip side, if you’re always, always striving, it’s never enough, then you’ll probably have regrets. So we want to get that balance between taking care of our bodies and appreciating all that we’ve done and all that we have and doing more good stuff for ourselves.

How to Get In Touch With Jill

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. That’s a really important last message. She’ll thank you so much. How does our audience get in touch with you? How can they connect with you?

Jill Cruz:

Well, I think the best way is to go to my website. I have a blog and lots and lots of interesting articles about many of the things that we talked about today. And so that’s probably the best place to get in touch with me. I mean, I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Facebook and Instagram, and all of those usual places as well.

Jenn DeWall:

So head on over to WYN, that’s, W Y N – wynweightloss.com, and we’ll reinforce that you can also find it in the show notes. Jill, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you so much for just stopping by to take time. To help our listeners focus on themselves was really a great conversation. And I just love your mindset around self-care. It’s not just yoga. It’s, you know, practicing healthy hedonism, understanding that we’ve got to pay attention to our body, the pursuit of pleasure, radical self-acceptance, and so much more. And even that difference between striving and thriving. Thank you so much, Jill!

Jill Cruz:

You’re welcome. Thank you for having me, Jenn,

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you want to find more about Jill or connect with Jill so you can start your own self-care journey, head on over to wynweightloss.com, that’s wynweightloss.com. And if you’re not sure where to start, you can go to our website. You can find the right way to nourish your body. You can head on over to https://www.tryinteract.com/share/quiz/5f7e3cc8eb45f400149f67fd. I would actually recommend going to our show notes to find this as it’s a more specific link, but there you can download and help get a better understanding of what’s the best diet for you. Remember; think about the stamina you want to have. Think about how you want to show up in life. If you know someone that could benefit from hearing this message today, please share this podcast with them. And if you personally enjoyed this podcast, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service. And most importantly, if we can come into your organization and help you perform at your best, help your team be the best that they can be. Please go to Crestcom.com for a two-hour complimentary skills-building workshop, and we would love to help you! Until next time.

 

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Play to Your Team’s Strengths with Strengths Performance Coach, Chris Failla

Jenn DeWall:

It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Chris Failla. As a Gallup Certified Strengths Performance Coach, speaker, and trusted advisor. Chris helps unlock you and your team’s full potential through strengths. Chris has a master’s degree in Organizational Leadership with an emphasis in adult learning and development. Over the past 15 years, he’s coached or trained people on every inhabited continent. And at some point, he’ll get to Antarctica as well! Join us in our conversation as we talk about how to leverage the strengths of your team.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I’m sitting down with Chris Failla! Chris Failla- some of you may know or may not. He is a leadership and relationship coach, as well as a speaker. And today, we are going to be talking about how to be intentional in taking care of your number one team. Chris, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

Meet Certified Strengths Performance Coach, Chris Failla

Chris Failla:

I’m super excited, Jenn. Thank you so much for the opportunity!

Jenn DeWall:

Chris, how did you come to— or, rather, where does your interest rise with helping people? I know we’re going to be talking about strengths and helping leaders understand how to identify the strengths, how to bring those strengths together. How did you become interested in that subject?

Chris Failla:

Yeah. Thank you for that question. So not where many people would expect, but I got married in 2003 at the very undercooked age of 21. I had no idea who I was, what I was bringing to the table. I was very raw, and I met this woman that I was like, wow if I don’t propose to her soon, someone else will. And I will be so mad for the rest of my life. But early on into our marriage, we discovered this tool that was at that point called StrengthsFinder. And we were given this gift of language to help turn the things that we were initially drawn to each other about, right. Opposites attract, and all of these clichés are cliché because they’re true. So all these polarities, right? It’s, you’re initially drawn to somebody. You have the Jerry McGuire—you complete me— all, all of these things, right?

But, but over time in a relationship, the things that were initially an attraction become an annoyance. And so, very early on, we were given this language for a positive approach and appreciation around the things that made us so different and initially drew us together. So this was a couple of years into our marriage, and I sometimes, with tongue in cheek, like to say that StrengthsFinder saved my marriage because it really was so much of it. Yeah. We’ve been married for 18 years and still going strong. But so much of it is because we have this positive, appreciative language to talk about our differences, who we are, our needs, our values. And so I thought if this could be so helpful for someone to, you know, two people as different as me and my wife, then who else could this be helpful for us? So we just jumped in and used it with every team, every organization, and have been going strong with it for the last 15 plus years.

Get to Know Your “Internal Team”

Jenn DeWall:

Wow. I am so excited to hear a lot of the stories that I’m sure you’re going to share because I still think that strengths while we understand, right. It’s nothing new to say, let’s, let’s play to someone’s strengths. People still get it wrong. So that’s kind of what we’re going to be talking about today. Like what do we do wrong? But first and foremost, let’s talk about just the definition of what is an internal team.

Chris Failla:

Yeah. So I love that we get to talk about this because one of the things that, that I love that the world is realizing, right. Actually, no, I love that that the Western world is now realizing that relationship is so crucial. Right? We, you know, in, in the states for so many years, we’ve I guess I would say kind of celebrated or highlighted the people that are individualistic. I can do everything on my own. I can figure it out. Right. Independence is like a, is a major value of ours. But what we’re realizing from the rest of the world is that relationship is so core and so central. So understanding the team is crucial to get anything done, but we don’t just have the teams around us. We also have this. I like to call it our internal team because one of the dangers I see with strengths is when we over-identify with certain attributes within ourselves, and then those things begin to own us instead of us owning them.

Jenn DeWall:

Wait, what does that mean? What does that mean? So if I look at a strength of communication, how would I over-identify with that?

Chris Failla:

Right. So I’ll tell you a quick story, and I share this in the book I’m working on, and we’ll get, we’ll come back around to that at the back end of this. But I was sitting with a couple. So I work with executives. I work with teams. I work with families. I work with couples. I was sitting with a couple, and you can relate to this because you have this as number two. Okay. So this husband was getting himself in trouble because his positivity was having a hard time actually connecting with his wife with some of her struggles because he could always see that, right. The positivity in him can always see the bright side and can always, you want to encourage. And when it’s okay, it’s no big deal, right? Because he sees the silver lining, right. The golden thread in even the difficult things.

But for her, she just wanted to be acknowledged that it was kind of sucky, that it was a little bit challenging, and that it wasn’t super, you know, that she didn’t want to need to be optimistic in this moment. But the way he framed it was what because I’m “positivity.” Right? And so, it almost became like an excuse. Well, because I am this, that essentially what he’s saying is I can’t not push that optimism on you. I can’t not force you to try to see the good, even when you’re not ready for it. So what I invited him to do was kind of back out of that a little bit and say, what if you’re not “positivity”? Well, what if you have positivity? But what if you need to balance that out with the awareness that sometimes people aren’t ready to look at the bright side because they actually need to move through the suck.

They need to move through the difficulty, and then they can actually own what’s positive. And what’s possible on the other side of that instead of this, you know, kind of what could be seen as unrealistic or naive. So that was just an example of giving him some distance and saying, wait a minute, like you need to almost put your positivity in the corner for a few minutes and connect with your wife through a different part of you. Right. Whether it’s like you, for example, I’d be curious how this resonates with you having positivity so high. Does, does that story mean anything to you? Have you ever seen where your positivity actually gets you in trouble in a relationship because of—I’m kind of putting you on the spot.

Discovering Your Strengths

Jenn DeWall:

I just love, like, I like need to, you know, share this conversation with my friends because they— I’m sure could tell you— that there are days when maybe they come to me for advice or for insights, and they’re just like, don’t want to hear it, Jenn. And so I always say, do you want to hear from Jenn, the coach, or do you want to hear from your friend Jenn, that can say, yeah, that’s awful. I like to ask that question, but absolutely that resonates. And just to catch up for everyone up to speed, we’re talking about CliftonStrengths (formerly StrengthsFinders) right now. And we actually, I, Chris, gave me the opportunity to take this test again. And one of my top characteristics or strengths is “positivity.” And so to bring this back. Yeah, absolutely. I’m sure some people actually, I can also look at it on a Monday morning, I roll into the office, and people are like, I don’t want to hear it. Done. Don’t care. Don’t want to be here.

Chris Failla:

Brightness down! Right. Turn down the brightness. We’re not ready. Right. And you’re like, why everybody? You come in with like a soundtrack playing in the background of your mind and heart, right? Like the birds are chirping. But that’s just how you see the world because your strengths are really the, it’s the lens right through which you, you can’t not see the world, but there’s a proverb in ancient Hebrew proverb that says something about like one who takes takes off a coat in heavy rain is like one who sings songs to a heavy heart.

Right. And sorry, I’m not trying to be a downer to you. But listen to your positivity, even right there, it’s like, oh, like you viscerally. Oh, ouchies, right? But it’s, it’s so needed. Right. It’s such a beautiful strength until it stops serving your relationships. And so one of the things like if, if you and I were in a coaching session, for example, I would offer you, I mean, we would kind of get there together. Right? But just at a quick glance, you also have this strength, and your top five, called empathy and empathy and positivity, work together as superpowers. Because it’s this powerful ability to connect with people in their emotions, but then also bring them through it to the other side, to them are the positive, hopeful outcome. But if your positivity is kind of being overplayed and your empathy is being underplayed, then it’s going to come across to your friends. Right. Like, okay, I’m not ready for this, dial it back a little bit, Jenn. But if you lead with— here’s the question you could ask your friends— would you like, would you like empathy or positivity right now? Which one of my strengths would you like me to be leading with for this conversation? Do you need to just be seen and heard, or do you need some perspective and some hope?

Jenn DeWall:

I like that as a great coaching question. In general, even as a leader of thinking about, you know, asking your employee, like if they did their own strengths, assessment, assessment, then asking their employee, what one would you like? How would you like this? I think that that’s a really powerful way. So I want to bring this in because clearly, I know where I get it wrong. Where do a lot of people get it wrong? So like, I definitely can relate to being “too much.” I’m looking here at my strengths, communication, positivity. Woo. You choose to get empathy. I mean, I either seem like the most exciting colleague or think, goodness, I do not work with her. Probably some people. So, where do people get it wrong?

Chris Failla:

Well, it’s, by the way, I think you are perfect for hosting this podcast. And when I, when I was sharing with my wife, the results of your strength, she was like, and she gets to be the host of the podcast? That must be like her- that’s her wheelhouse. Right. She must love that. You really are. You’re you’re incredible. Even in the process leading up to this, I was like, I can’t wait because I know I’m in such good hands, and she’s going to bring such good energy. So, where do people get it wrong? Abraham Maslow is credited as saying, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And it’s when we, we kind of, we show up in every situation with a single sense of self of like, this is just how I am. This is how I operate. This is who I am. And so people just need to deal with me as I am, instead of realizing that we have all these tools to bring to the table in terms of how we show up.

So whether it’s, I mean, how many times does somebody come to a brainstorming meeting, ready to get things checked off a list, and they’re sitting there so frustrated because either the leader didn’t set the context for what type of meeting it is. Right? And it’s like, Hey, I’m asking you to put aside your, your like executing parts of you that wants to just get stuff done. I’m asking you to just like, put that aside for a little bit and lead with your strategic, your, you know, your ability to generate ideas, your creativity. So if this is making sense, we get it wrong. When we show up the same way to every single thing, instead of front-loading, what is the best part of me that I need to lead within what situation? And knowing that on the front end, instead of kind of paying for that on the backend.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I love that it’s reminding us to be intentional and that we have to wake out of our autopilot tendencies of just being in the day-to-day of work. How do you understand the different parts of yourselves? How do you start to begin to understand that? Because I think self-awareness, we might be aware of some things like, Hey, I know time is a really big issue to me. If someone is late or if someone doesn’t respond to something right away, but where do you begin to understand the different parts of yourself?

Chris Failla:

Yeah. Well, so there are so many, it’s a big question. There are so many different angles at which to approach that, right? Because you have, you have the values piece, so right. We talked about pet peeves and things like that, but pet peeves are really kind of like superficial expressions of deep values. Right? So, so you can approach it from the values angle of well- let me say this. Often we can start with paying attention to our energy. Do we start by paying attention to how I am feeling at this moment? Why is this draining the life out of me? Why do I feel ignited right now? Why did I want to stay in that conversation forever? Or why was I crawling out of my skin and wanting to, why did I want to evacuate that conversation? It’s our body that will tell us things way before our mind or even heart will.

Be Aware of What Energizes Your Team

Jenn DeWall:

And it’s so interesting because I want to talk about energy. That’s still kind of a new way to describe how to pay attention to yourself. Awareness. I think that people sometimes are like- energy? What the heck? That’s not, doesn’t seem logical, or it doesn’t seem rational, but I, I like the, you know, just that bringing to light that pay attention to the physical signs that your body is showing in a conversation as a first place. Keep going. I just love that. You said that because, and I want to call out the fact that there are some people that are like, what does that mean? But that was just thinking about how you’re feeling, and you’re thinking about energy. It’s just, how are you feeling?

Chris Failla:

Yeah. And you can watch, right? So you’re in a meeting, and you watch somebody’s body language, right? You say something, and their shoulders slump or their head goes down, or their face doesn’t move, and they don’t even realize it, paying attention to those cues that our bodies are indicators of what, of what we’re feeling right now and what the energy inside of us is doing that energy is connected to our needs, to our values, to our strengths, to our longings. So one of the things that I’ll do in a meeting is as I’ll actually tell somebody, you know, I’ll, if I’m- Okay, I’m going to come at this one angle and then I’ll come back around from another side because you asked, how do we start to identify language? Really, really the thing that we need is the language for it.

Once somebody can name something for us, it’s, it’s like when you go to the doctor, and you just feel off, and even if the doctor doesn’t have great news for you, right? Like so many people, they away from the doctor. If the doctor is named for them, what’s going on. There’s a sense of relief because you’re able to kind of like, hang what you’re experiencing on to write a word. Okay. You have the flu. Okay. Well, just knowing that. Right? I can relax a little bit. It’s the same thing with our strengths, the more language we have to describe these internal dynamics, internal needs, these values, the more quickly we can connect with others and help other people meet them, you know, meet us in that and we can meet them. So there’s Gallup in the StrengthsFinder tool. I love that. It gives a quick overview. You don’t even need to take the assessment to get a quick kind of insight into four of the broad parts of how we operate. Right? So you know, I’m looking at your strengths report right here, but anybody can relate to that there are at least four different parts of us, four different kinds of domains that are our actions and behaviors fall into, right?

So there’s the relational or the connection part of us, right? The part of us that wants to belong, the part of us wants to feel seen and be in a relationship. There’s the influencing part of us. We want to make a difference. We want to know that our work matters. We want to know that we’re making an impact on people. We have the executing side of us, which is about getting things done. It’s how we act. It’s how we behave. It’s what drives us to actually get things created and completed in the world. And then there’s the thinking side of us that sometimes just needs to process, sometimes needs to mull things over or make a plan. So what often happens is people will come to a “thinking time,” showing up with their “doer.” Right? Or they’ll come to a “doing time” showing up with their “thinker,” and that’s. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

Because, well, first and foremost, I’m looking again at my results, and you identified the four parts, executing, influencing relationship building, and strategic thinking. I have no purple in my job. I have no “executing.”

Chris Failla:

Yeah. So this is where, this is where coaching is really fun, right. Because it’s not until near number 15, so there, there are a couple of different, you know, meanings we could, we could extrapolate from this or guesses we can take at this, but here’s what I’ve observed of you. You actually, you do follow through, you do get things done. You do create. You do make things happen in the world. So it’s not an issue of what you can or can’t do. It’s how you get there. And so could I put a couple of questions out there for you? So let me ask you this. When a task gets delegated to you, is that, is that a common part of your role?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, having a task or project requires execution and then a lot of maybe even just coordination too that I do on behalf of our classes, making sure the students have the materials they need so on and so forth.

Chris Failla:

Okay. So let me ask you this. What are the most, if, if you feel comfortable answering this right on, on this podcast, but I’d be curious to hear what the most draining part of your job is?

Jenn DeWall:

Anything where it’s extremely detail-oriented? The greatest draining part is any administrative piece that’s detail-oriented. I just, you know, that’s not my top of mind. I’m really great at getting bigger things done. I’m great at pushing things forward. I’m great at having difficult conversations. When it comes down to individual emails. I mean, I’m going to be honest— and someone listening here knows I’m not even great at responding within whatever 24-hour window people expect. Like those are the things that are more draining for me is just the smaller pieces. Does that make sense based on my strengths?

Chris Failla:

Yeah. I, I, well, I resonate with that personally. Right. And that that does totally make sense. So let me, is it okay if we peel back some layers on this.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, let’s peel it back!

Chris Failla:

So to give you a feel of how this works. So here’s, if we peel it back, one of the questions I’d ask you is what the thought is? Or what’s the story you’re telling yourself when you approach your inbox, and you have these emails to respond to, what is the, if, if you could like put language to what’s going through your mind with your inbox facing you, what are you thinking?

Jenn DeWall:

I’m always behind.

Chris Failla:

I’m always behind.

Jenn DeWall:

I’m never caught up to where I should be. I’m always playing catch-up. And so then the emails can be very overwhelming and, you know, I think the other side is, can I hire someone? That’s the other bottom? Like, can someone manage this for me? No. It’s just really always going to it and being like, what did I miss now? How far behind am I? I like it, it’s interesting. Because you might think of the positivity, I absolutely am super critical of myself. So yeah. It’s what did I miss? How did I do something up? What do I have to do now? Like, oh my gosh, I just can’t seem to get ahead of it. That would be, those would be the core thoughts.

Figure Out Who, Not How

Chris Failla:

Right. So you, you, you kind of brought us into to really, I guess, one really important thing that you can approach from two different angles, right? There’s a guy named Dan Sullivan, and I think he wrote this book with Benjamin Hardy. Are you familiar with the book? Who Not How? It’s, it’s brilliant; it’s a brilliant book that gets us thinking about the nature of procrastination, right? And often you can notice somebody that you seem to be like an idea and a people person. So what often happens? You can probably relate to this, but you have an idea, and you’re ignited by the idea of the possibility. Quickly, your mind goes to, okay, well, I better do something with that so that it can actually serve people in the world instead of just staying in this ethereal idea land. Right? And so your mind probably immediately goes to, okay, how do I do this? How do I get this done? And then what happens to your energy as soon as you start going into the details of what it’s going to take to make this happen.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s when I can go with… things aren’t finished. My follow-through probably isn’t as polished, and my enthusiasm drains.

Chris Failla:

So, and I’m, I’m exactly the same way. That’s why I can name it for you, right? It’s because I totally get it. So who not, how means what if the first question we asked wasn’t how do I do this? But rather, who is the best person to bring into this, to help support me and make it a reality?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes!

Chris Failla:

Because there’s, there’s a relational understanding there that we don’t have every strength, right? We’re not completely balanced along with the thinking executing, relating, influencing all of us, have a specific kind of bent or direction. One of the Gallup, you know, the researchers, the authors behind the Clifton strengths tool, one of the things that they say is you’re not meant to be a well-rounded person. You’re meant to be sharp.

Jenn DeWall:

Cause I think a lot of people think that if you’re going to be the perfect package or the ideal package, you are well-rounded and every skill that may be a team or an organization needs, or you believe that they need.

Teams Should Be Well-Rounded, Individuals Should be Sharp

Chris Failla:

Yeah. It just doesn’t exist. Gallup’s Gallup’s statement is you’re not meant to be a well-rounded person. You’re meant to be sharp. And teams are meant to be well-rounded. So, so the invitation is to actually lean into our sharpness and say, okay, wait a minute, myself as Jenn, what if I got to spend 80% of my time creating, connecting, conversing, right? In this realm. And when it came to the details to the follow-through and stuff like that, what if that’s where you’re actually onto something, when your thought is, I just want to hire somebody. Because there might be somebody that would actually be lit up by coming alongside you and being like, Jenn, give me all of that stuff because there’s nothing more exciting than taking something across the finish line. There’s nothing more exciting for me than diving into the details and working it all through, and figuring out how to actually execute this idea.

Right. And you’re sitting there like, ugh! And they’re like, just give that to me! Give that to me! Right? Because, so, but here’s the thing I could say a little bit more about that. I’ll just make this comment, but will you remind me to come back around to our internal team because that’s part of this whole conversation? But what I wanted to say with that real quick is two leadership challenges happen that strengths help us be aware of. One of those things is that we have a tendency to downplay our strengths because it’s so natural to us. It’s so close to home that we just assume wouldn’t everybody be able to do it this way? Doesn’t everybody just get this? Doesn’t that just click for them? Part of my story is I lived in China for just under five years, and I speak Spanish, but I also was learning Mandarin.

And it was about 18 months into my time learning Mandarin that I just had this horrible day at class. Like my teacher was getting frustrated with me, and I was so discouraged, and things were not clicking. And I came home from class that day. And my wife noticed that I was just not in a good headspace. And she’s like, what’s going on with you? What happened? And I just told her that I had a super discouraging day. She’s like, wait a minute. Are you telling me that this is the first day you’ve had like that? I was like, yeah, what do you mean? She was like, baby, that’s how all of the rest of us have been feeling the whole entire time.

I was like, oh, that sucks. Like it had never occurred to me. Right? Because I had actually been in a really good flow and a really good zone. And so it became, it was so natural to me, the language just made sense to me. Why wouldn’t it just make sense? The same way to everybody else? So what we do is we kind of project our strengths on the others, and we think, oh, well, right. If this is so easy for me, of course, it should be easy for them. And then when they don’t, you know, achieve or execute to the same level that we can, then we get frustrated because it’s like, it’s easy. Look, I can show you this is how you do it, instead of realizing right. That for them, they might have a way different wiring. The other side of that, though, the flip side of that is that we project what drains us onto other people. And so we’re afraid to ask other people to do things for us that would drain us because why would we want to be the drain on them?

Jenn DeWall:

I do that all the time. I never would ask someone to do something that I think is, oh my gosh, that’s daunting, draining, tedious, redundant. I don’t want to ask people to do that because I don’t want to inconvenience them or add that to their plate.

Your Weaknesses are Someone Else’s Strengths

Chris Failla:

Isn’t that interesting? Right. And they might be sitting there, right? So you have at the bottom of your strengths-mix is things like analytical, which is that detail piece, right? Detail piece. Consistency, which is about kind of like that, that routine and doing things the same way over and over right. Discipline, which is about structuring your day, your world, and it’s all about creating structure and organizing things. And deliberative, which is all about implicational—thinking of really thinking everything through before you step into it, having the plan all the way figured out. And, but my wife has 1, 2, 3, 4 of your bottom five is in her top five.

Jenn DeWall:

So interesting. Can I hire your wife?

Chris Failla:

But what’s, so what’s fun about that is any like those things that you see as mundane or detailed or whatever. She’s like, I love that. Give me something mundane because it doesn’t take any energy for me. Right. Or give me something detailed, give me numbers to play with because that’s just where that’s just what makes sense to me in my world. And you’re like, I wouldn’t, why would I ever do that to you? Right. Why would I ever offer this food for you to eat when I hate that? And they’re like, that’s my favorite dish, and that’s my favorite meal. So just, just having a little bit of that distance to say, oh, wait a minute. What if everybody isn’t wired exactly like me, and what if we had more language to articulate, to identify, and to actually lean into these things? Will you let me bring this around quickly to the internal team piece of it?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, I will! Let’s do it!

Chris Failla:

Let’s say we just don’t have the luxury of having that perfect complimentary partnership right at hand. Right? So, but in the same way that we can hand off a task or a facet of our work or activity or project to an external person, someone else on our team, I believe we can also hand things off to certain parts of ourselves.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. Explain to me what you mean by that. Yeah. Explain it.

Chris Failla:

I want to put you on the spot real quick. Because you just had one of those nodding your head and had an insight moment. So I, I wanna, I’m curious what you think, what, what you started connecting there.

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t well, reframe that question one more time for me.

Chris Failla:

What was that insight you just had when you, when you started nodding your head?

Jenn DeWall:

No, I think it’s more like, how do you, or how do I apply it? Like how do I apply positivity to make myself more disciplined? Do I just say, Jenn, you can do this? I know that you have a plan. Is that what you mean? By being able to take that and look at your weakness and say, just face it head-on. Is that what you mean?

Chris Failla:

It’s, it’s not as much about taking a weakness and facing it head-on as saying, what is the best strength I have to get me the outcome that I need? And if I always lead with positivity, maybe what I need right now is actually right. So you have one in your top 10 called “activator.” You’re probably a powerhouse of getting things started.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. It’s just not finishing.

Chris Failla:

So, so there’s a few different directions. You can go with this. You could either just lean into that and say, Hey, you know, I need somebody to partner with me. That’s great at taking things across the finish line. Who is the follow-through person that loves that feeling of checking something off the list? And maybe that’s something you look for in who you hire, but it’s also when you have finished something. Because is it true that you’ve never followed through on something and like your entire life?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely not. I do it. I just procrastinate my way there.

Self-Awareness is Key to Understanding Strengths

Chris Failla:

Right. So, so the thing to really- the self-awareness piece comes in to say, okay, when I have followed through, what is it that me there, what was the motivation? What was the thought? What was the thing that was helping get to that follow-through point? How do I reproduce that more on the front end and with more intentionality instead of just occasionally following through and being like, I did it don’t know how, but I got here! Versus, okay, this is what’s going on. Right. So we would look at some of your strengths and say, okay, when you follow through, which ones of your strengths have a follow-through component to them. And, but some people don’t have time for all of that, or they don’t have this assessment in front of them. Right. So, but what you can do is you can, you can just kind of say, okay, last time that I followed through on something, what was I telling myself that helped me get at that last 20%?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I mean, and I think it’s Jenn like you’ve got goals, and this is the last little part of the hill that you have to climb. You’re almost there. That’s my positivity message. And let’s do it because you’ve got goals.

Chris Failla:

Yeah. Okay. So you’ve got goals. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, even as I watch your facial expression, when you talk about your goals, when you like, like there’s this energy there, right. So when you think about your goals, what’s what does that do for you? What what’s, what’s that connected to? Like, what do your goals mean to you, or what happens when you feel that sense of accomplishment? How, how does that come to you?

Jenn DeWall:

Confidence. But then, when I can accomplish my goals, or when I think about the vision of what I want to create, it excites me! You know, that builds up the energy of it builds up enthusiasm, which then makes me want to take action. But then I quickly go to. I want to do all things.

Chris Failla:

Right. But, so what you’ve, what I heard a little bit in there is some of that futuristic in you, right? I’ve got vision. I’ve got, I know where I want to take this. So there’s an invitation in here, right? In this conversation, if we were full-on coaching, it would be really excavating. What are those things that drive you? What are the things that help move you forward and keep that energy sustained so that you don’t peter out 30% into the project, right? Or 40% or whatever. And so for you hearing that, it’s about your goals. It’s about a vision for not only what you want to accomplish, but I heard a vision for the kind of person you want to be.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes! I always think in terms of long-term like, what type of life do I want to live? What am I creating every day?

Chris Failla:

So, so that’s an example (or futuristic), right? And so whether we attach that to a specific strength based on the language here, or whether we just know that that’s something you can, you can almost hack yourself, right? You can, and you can kind of like catch yourself when your energy is starting to wane and be like, wait a minute. Why did I start this in the first place? What was that vision I had for myself of the life I wanted to create? And, and how does this email play into that? How does, how does this little task play into the life I’m creating? And the vision I have for Jenn DeWall two years from now, three years from now. How do I pull that into the present and live from that now?

Leading With Your Strengths

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I love that. Connecting the dots to make sure I’m attaching the small or what I would perceive as maybe redundant or just meaningless tasks into why it’s so important. I love that. So, Chris, look, I know that we had so many more questions to even talk about this! How do you even begin to look at this as a leader? We went through and looked at some of my strengths. Like where does someone start if they hear this and they’re curious because this is a great tool to just again, get that reflection of yourself and to understand what your natural tendencies are, as well as what your blind spots are. Which mine are all executing, as you’re hearing, don’t email me. I may not respond. No, I’m kidding. But how do you start as a leader? How do you start to look at this? What would I know you had a framework? What would that be?

Chris Failla:

Yeah, so the framework is, I think part of it is, how do I primarily show up as my default way of leading? First of all, take the strengths assessment. If you, if you have a chance, it’s very worth your 20 bucks, right? It’s very worth the 20 bucks to get the language of Gallup Strengths. But if you don’t take that assessment, one of the places to start is okay. Would people describe me primarily as a relational leader? Do I get things done through collaboration, through connection? Do I create relational space? Am I more of an impactful and influencing leader? So do I show up wanting to move everybody else towards the goal? Do I want to get people bought in and release them into a vision? Am I more of an executing leader where I want to do it more myself?

And I feel a sense of accomplishment based on what I’m producing day-to-day, or am I more of a strategic leader where it’s all about? I come up with the plan. I come up with the processes, and then I invite other people to kind of hold the relationships together and produce the results. So what’s your default way of what’s your core or primary way of showing up. But then within that, also realizing that you have these other things accessible to you and asking what’s needed at the moment what’s needed in this next conversation what’s needed in this next meeting and trying on different parts of you to say, Hey, I’m going to actually like I’ll give you, do we have time for a quick sports analogy?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes Yes!

Chris Failla:

So I’m I coach soccer, tennis doesn’t work as well in this, but I’ve coached quite a few sports, and I play a lot of sports, but sports gives us a quick analogy, right? To, to say the coach is not the players. And if I am coaching a soccer team, the more I know the different players on the field, the more I’m going to be to put them in their best position. Some people are just attackers by mindset. Some people are more defensive by mindset. Some people see the whole field and need to play in the midfield.

So if I realize that I’m the coach, not the player, and I take the time to get to know the different parts of me, then here’s what can happen. I can realize that that for certain plays or parts of the game, I want a certain team captain. And I want certain people not to be a ball-hog. Right? So, so if the defense holds onto the ball the whole game and never gets it up to the attacker, and they’re like, well, nobody’s scoring on us. Right. But we never get up to the attackers. We’re not going to score and win. So it’s actually being able to look inside of ourselves and say, okay, is the executing part of me being a ball hog? Should I actually let that part of me pass the ball to my strategic thinker? And we make a more robust plan before we jump into action. Does my team need me to show up a little more relationally right now and strengthen our connection so that we’re, we realized we’re on the same page and then from there, right? So pass the ball to that relational part of you. And it just knowing that we have that inside of us helps us get that much closer to the actual output of it, instead of thinking that we only have one way of showing up. We’re much more complex and nuanced as humans than that.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. So what you’re saying is first start with understanding yourself. You could take this test for $20 USD but then think about it as you’re going into maybe a difficult conversation or a team meeting. I love that analogy of the soccer game or football as our international, you know, we’ll call it something different, but thinking about what is needed to play this game, what is needed for this meeting right now? And how do I need to show up? I think those are really important reminders because, again, we can’t just keep leading with our strength, going back to how we started this conversation, because it might actually create the opposite impact.

Chris Failla:

Yeah. So I hope that I don’t know if that answers your question. There’s obviously so much more we can.

Jenn DeWall:

I know. I feel like I need to have you back just so we can deep dive into this, or maybe we need to bring in a guest. So then you could go through and actually coach them how they would use it because I know it’d be fun to do something different. I’m sure they get sick of hearing the “positivity whoo-hoo” host to that.

Chris Failla:

No, but I know you have more to you than that.

Jenn DeWall:

How many would like, you know, I know I know that we have to wrap this up, but in curiosity, like how do you have any tips on how to be more, a little bit more intentional of what you recommend when you’re working with people? Because I already can hear the excuse, but my work is busy, but who has time to think about that? Do you have any tips for how we can really just slow down so we can speed up?

Chris Failla:

Yes. So slowing down is huge, right? One of the best pieces of leadership advice I ever got was from one of my, one of my professors in grad school. And he said he said someone gave him leadership advice. That was two words. And it was “be unhurried.” And that was really meaningful to me, right? Because that’s not, that’s even different than don’t hurry. Be unhurried- is a way of being that allows you to be more reflective, be more intentional. So that’s something that’s kind of a bigger picture, more philosophical approach to it. But realizing that as we “be unhurried,” we will have more time, more bandwidth to actually think about how we want to show up. But the second thing is it can happen in the little transitions, build in more margin into your time, right?

So put 15 minutes in between your meetings and take three of those minutes to say, okay, who am I showing up to? What’s needed? What part of me do I want to be team captain for this next hour-long conversation and notice that your energy is going to shift dramatically just by taking that three-minute pause? It might even not take three minutes. Some might even take just one minute to say, whom do I want to be team captain here and show up into the meeting, leading with that part of you. And I have a feeling you will be surprised at what kind of energy and an outcome you get out of that just by knowing how to meet people, where they’re coming from, and what they need.

Where to Find Chris and Learn More

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s a great closing tip, too, to be unhurried. Slow down. Think about what’s appropriate, given the situation or circumstance that you’re walking to or walking into. Be unhurried. I think that’s a lesson that we all need to be reminded of probably daily. Chris, how can people get in touch with you? I know they can go to Chris failla.com when they’re they can connect with and probably book you for speaking. You can work with them on their own relationship or leadership challenges, anything I’m missing there?

Chris Failla:

That’s a great way to do it. Just if they want to know more about my work, they want to check out some of the resources I’ve put together. I’m, I’m more of an old school. I’m not much of an emailer either. And so I love when people just give me a call, right, or reach out over the phone. I love that human-to-human connection. I think that’s kind of a lost art. So, but I would say reach out in whatever form they’re kind of used to, but, but get a feel for my work and my website. Also, I’m going to make an offer for some of the things that I’m putting together. Some really big discounts and kind of accelerators for the listeners of this podcast. So if they go to ChrisFailla.com and I know you’ll have that spelled out in the show notes because not a lot of people spell my name, right, but ChrisFailla.com/podcast, then they’ll have access to some tools I’m putting together that help give language and help reinforce this framework so that they can show up at their best in every situation, not just on accident every once in a while.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Chris, thank you so much for all of your insight. Thank you for coaching me today, and thank you for also giving and leaving us with a reminder to show up and be unhurried. It was truly a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Chris Failla:

Yeah. And I love this. Thank you. I can’t wait. Let’s do it again.

Jenn DeWall:

I know we need to!

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Chris Failla. I hope you really enjoyed it and took away valuable and tips for how you can leverage the strengths of your team. If you want to connect with Chris, head on over to ChrisFailla.com, and there you can find his podcast and also download his e-book, Playing to Your Strengths. Now, of course, if you want to learn more about leadership development for your team or organization, don’t forget to head over to Crestcom.com. We offer complimentary to all our skills-building workshops, and we would love to come and help your organization. If you know someone that would enjoy this podcast, please share it with them. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

 

The post Play to Your Team’s Strengths with Strengths Performance Coach, Chris Failla appeared first on Crestcom International.

Achieving High-Performance Through Emotional Intelligence with Neuro-Leadership Expert, Maureen Chiana

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Maureen Chiana, who was the neuro-leadership and emotional intelligence consultant, speaker, and facilitator. She leverages brain science insights of how the brain works to empower executives, leaders, and educators to unlock potential, maximize performance, accelerate, and embed new behaviors to enable them and transform how they lead, work, and live! Maureen’s expertise is in behavioral change. Using the latest findings from neuroscience to help organizations become more human and their people to improve their quality of thinking to achieve sustainable success. She helps people mitigate the biases that negatively affect them and their decisions so they can flourish, excel and become limitless. Maureen and I sat down to discuss how we can create high-performing teams by understanding emotional intelligence. Enjoy!

Meet Maureen Chiana, Neuro-Leadership Consultant

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone! On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I’m sitting down with Maureen Chiana, who is a neuro-leadership consultant. That is a title, Maureen! How did you start this journey to become a neuro-leadership expert and consultant? Tell me a little bit about that, and welcome to the show. We’re so happy to have you.

Maureen Chiana:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’m so honored to be here. How did I become a neuro-leadership consultant? It’s a long story, but I’m going to give you the short version. My background is in biomedical sciences, and I’ve kind of done quite a bit of career changes into IT, into lecturing, and then opened a business. And it was after the business I opened, which was in hospitality. I had to close it after four years, or I’d rather have to sell it after four years. I really felt so low because I have big plans, and that didn’t happen. So, in the end, I really felt like a failure. I felt so low. I felt vulnerable. I felt, I just felt so bad. And then, a few months later, I lost my mom. So it was so many emotions that it was just a really tough time.

Well, then I started asking the question, how do people fail and bounce back? How do people, you know, go through difficult situations and then come back and be okay? And I think my research brain kicked back in because I did use to work in medical research in the nineties. And I just started asking the questions, and that led me to neuroscience because it was more the brain. And I just really wanted to know how the brain works. And it was such an interesting journey because on discovering neuroscience in detail, the interesting thing is I have lectured in anatomy in the past, but not really neuroscience, not really how the brain really works.

So it really just opened my eyes to a whole new field, the whole new area. And that was how I discovered the brain and the control that we have over the brain. And then, I was able to now use this in my role as the leader in educational management. And I just saw how quickly we’re able to turn around on top-performing departments, disengaged teams. It was just an eye-opener. So that was my introduction to neuro-leadership.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a pretty powerful story of hitting bottom, but then recognizing, or I guess, as you described it, turning that research brain back on and recognizing that our brain can help us in those situations. I’m curious, how do you work with individuals in terms of neuro-leadership?

Maureen Chiana:

So what I do is working with organizations as a whole. Suppose I want to change their culture, then I’m working with individuals because it still comes back to people. And the key is in whatever aspect it is. It’s how do people, what makes people behave the way they do, what makes them act the way they are. So with individuals who are leaders in organizations or business owners, it’s finding out where they are—finding out where they want to go and then helping them kind of bridge the gap. And also, with a lot of leaders, it’s fi helping them get their team on board, helping them relate better to their team, helping them understand themselves first and foremost because then they can understand the people that are needed. And the key thing for me is really helping organizations and leaders understand that they’re dealing with human beings. So it’s really bringing the humanness back into the, into leadership. Back into, you know, so the focus is not so much on results and skills but on people, because once you focus on the people, the results will follow, and they will follow in such a massive way than when you’re focusing more on the skills.

So it also to your question, how it’s going into an organization and finding out, you know, what the issues are, and then helping them create a program which I then deliver and usually over a period of time to help them. So I will use the training and coaching to have that because I don’t believe in one trade, one-day training or two-day training, and then going away. Because what we’re really looking at is helping people rewire their brains. So that’s my key. That’s the key thing I do. Really.

How Do You Define Emotional Intelligence?

Jenn DeWall:

I love it. We’re going to be talking about how to achieve high-performance using emotional intelligence. And that has to do all with rewiring our brain, but just to kind of level set. How do you define emotional intelligence?

Maureen Chiana:

Emotional intelligence is the ability of anyone to first and foremost understand why you’re feeling the way you are—so understanding your emotions. Understanding what creates the emotions and then enabling you to recognize them. Enable you to control them and also enable you to manage your emotions and how you interact with other people, and how other people perceive you. The reason why emotional intelligence is so important is that every thought we have every piece of information coming into the brain has to go through a check in the emotional parts of the brain. So every thought has an emotion attached to it. That then leads to you taking an action that creates a habit and behavior. So if you cannot understand what is happening with the emotions, then you can go back to the basics, which is the thought process, and you can start changing that. So it’s really helping you understand your emotions, manage those emotions so you can adapt those emotions and adapt your actions, which then changes your behavior.

Jenn DeWall:

Why is emotional intelligence- I mean, I think I know, you know, we all know a base level of how emotional intelligence impacts the productivity of our teams, but let’s just restate it. You know, this is again the reminder, why is emotional intelligence so important?

Maureen Chiana:

Emotional intelligence is extremely important because it’s the emotions that you have that drive the actions that you take, which then translates into your performance. So if you have people who are disengaged, where you really start looking at it? When you look at one individual, why is that individual not engaged at work or not motivated? Or why are they stressed while they suffered anxiety or where they’d been absent a lot from work? Or why are they ill? You know, all those, all those are actions, but what actually creates that goes back to what’s the emotions that they’re dealing with.

So if you understand how you can, it, you know, it’s the intelligence of emotions. It’s like when we define IQ. This is your talent, your skills, and overall that intelligence, but it’s really intelligent about the emotions because it’s the emotions that make you who you are, makes you act the way you act, makes you feel the way you do, makes you- makes you know, so that will determine, for example, of the manager criticizes the work you do, it’s the, it’s you being able to manage your emotions intelligently would determine you respond or whether you react. And that it goes on to determine your outputs, which then leads to the performance.

Jenn DeWall:

How, I mean, I know we talked earlier too, because emotional intelligence, you know, well, first I’ll say this, like in my coach training too, it was all about understanding If you wanted to change the outcomes you saw it, it sounds like this is where you are too. If you wanted to see different outcomes, you have to start with your core thought. So if your core thought is, I am not good enough, then you’re going to feel a lack of confidence. Then you likely won’t apply for that promotion or maybe speak up in a meeting. Is that kind of how you see it too? Like, or where do you see it starting?

Understanding the Subconscious Brain

Maureen Chiana:

So basically, what happens in the brain is when you have a thought when the thought comes in, then the brain is assessing in that thought process to say, okay, what is this? Is it something I’m familiar with? Or is it something that is new to me? And your emotion, the emotional sense of the amygdala, you know, predominantly the amygdala and hippocampus are really looking at it to go, do we, do we know what this is?

And if it’s something, for example, that says, I’m not good enough that they thought that it’s coming, I’m not good enough. If it’s something that is already wired in the brain that you’re already feeling, or you have the thought process of you’re not good enough, or someone has told you, you’re not good enough. And it’s already stored in memory. When you have this thought process, then what the next action is. The emotions are immediate, that’s attached to that thought kick in, and you then find yourself either avoiding doing an action or carrying out a task or holding back, self-sabotage kicks in, procrastination kicks in because you feel the main thing is the subconscious brain drives 90% of what we do.

Jenn DeWall:

Wait. Holy Cow! I need to pause for that one. The subconscious brain controls 90% of what we do. So is this the wake-up call that all leaders need right now? Like wake up, if you’re feeling may be low or frustrated or blank, this is your opportunity to rewire. Sorry. I just want to give that as our starting point for our audience.

Maureen Chiana:

Yeah, exactly. Because you see when the subconscious is what drives 90% of what we do, and it’s really on autopilot. So it’s the area of your mind that is just like, I use the iceberg as a typical example. The bit you don’t see, which is below the sea, is the main part of the iceberg. The top part is just a really little bit, which is the conscious brain. So if, if the subconscious is the bit we don’t see that has our beliefs has our values has all, you know, cultural background as all those things stored in it. And that’s what’s driving. Our actions are, you know, the way we perceive ourselves, our self-value.

If it’s our branding, how we identify, how we perceive ourselves, if all that is in the subconscious, that means that a lot of actions that we’re taking, we actually take it from the place of non-conscious at play, unconscious aspect. So our behaviors are not conscious. Our actions are not conscious. If that’s the case, if you don’t start looking into what’s in the unconscious, the unconscious will keep driving you to do what you consciously want to do differently. So you want to run a business and be very successful. You want to be a great manager. You want to get your team engaged, but your subconscious has a different story. The story in your subconscious is I’m not good enough. I can’t do this. It’s too difficult. I’m not qualified enough. Your subconscious, because that’s the thoughts coming in, and that’s the thought coming in, will only drive you to do what you’re giving it.

So in a way, the subconscious answers the questions you ask it, or it goes on. It does what you tell it to do, basically. So if you don’t change the narrative, it will keep going in the way that you don’t want it to go. And then, you know, look, that’s what, and that’s what creates reality for everyone. I always say that everyone’s reality is different, but the reality you have is the one that is wired in your brain. So the question is, what is wired in your own brain that then drives your behavior and action?

Is Your Brain Wired for High-Performance?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I’m pretty candid on the podcast, but a big part of rewiring. Because I’m, you know, you hear the expression, a recovering perfectionist, and the thought rooted in that is I am not good enough because that then motivated me. Let’s think about this earlier on in my career to do more research, to maybe study more, to spend more time at work depending on if we’re looking at college and my first job, but then when I think about the “I’m not good enough.” And how that actually showed up in my first career, I was really reluctant to want to contribute because I just assumed that someone else had a better answer or a better piece of feedback. And I also then would go into things, not feeling competent. So if I had an annual review, I would be very anticipatory of, okay, well, this is where they’re going to tell me where I’m missing the mark, because I need something that I need to work on, right? Perfectionist, like there’s some, I’m fundamentally flawed in some way, or I’m not good enough. And I say this, and I share my example because I think, you know, we all have it, and we all need to understand what messages we program in. I know that I am inherently at my core. I know that I’m good enough, but when I’m not tapped into that, my subconscious absolutely will take over and be like, Jenn, you’re missing the mark on this. You’re always behind. You need to work on this. And that is where I don’t. That feels awful. It feels awful.

Maureen Chiana:

Yeah. And when you think about it, and lots of what is wired in our brain has been wired in passively without us actively doing it. So things that we’ve absorbed from when we’re children, things we’ve absorbed. When we’re growing up. Things we listen to. Things people have said. All that is all that kind of goes into the brain passively, but it’s then in storage so that when you then want to do something, what is stored in the brain is the negatives. You know, I can’t, I can’t, you can’t, it’s too difficult. You’re not good enough. So when you then want to actually cautiously do something, the subconscious, which is so powerful, 90% is going, no, no, no. That’s, you know, but remember you’re not good enough. You can’t do this. And if you allow it, it will then drive your actions. But the interesting thing is, oh, it’s I use this quote, what you, what you focus on, expands. Whatever you give this- so whatever the subconscious brain is focusing on- is what it will, you know, the brain then filters every other thing out. So if you’re, if what you’re selling yourself is that you are not good enough, every other thing is filtered out. You know, the system filters everything else out. So all you’re seeing is I’m not good enough. Do you know? So your actions will be, I’m not good enough. You open a book. All you see are things I’m not good enough. You want to carry out an action. And you know what all you all you’re going to see is things that will confirm that you’re not good enough because your subconscious brain will help you confirm what you’re already telling it because it has to protect you from what it perceives as a threat. And the threat is anything that is different from what is already wired in it.

Jenn DeWall:

oh my gosh, I love, that’s a really powerful, you know, again, observation, to understand that it’s not true. What is the truth that you’re telling yourself? Because it’s your truth, but not THE truth. That’s the one that you have programmed and reinforced through experiences. And that’s the lens of how you’re going to observe your life. And so we have to challenge it and say, how true is it really? Is that like, so where do we start? How can we talk about how this emotional intelligence can impact the culture of a team? Like what, when we don’t have that right mindset, how does that actually show up in a team perspective?

Maureen Chiana:

One thing to also remember is that emotions are contagious. So if one person within a team comes in with negative emotion, that can spread really fast within a team. Really quickly. And then you start finding everyone else, you know, replicating that negative emotion. And also the brain in terms of when it’s trying to keep us away from stress, that is actually stronger than the positive is, you know, make it giving you a reward. And the reason for that is the brain is trying to keep you away from anything that is dangerous. So we did it seem, you’ve got a group of people with different thoughts, different beliefs, different values, different actions, and everything comes out in the form of emotion on action or a thought process. So a typical example is if they want to go through a change process or you want to implement something different, you will have people there who automatically would resist change because that’s the brain’s normal way.

But there are people who are so risk-averse because of their upbringing, because of their culture, because of what is already wired in their brain. So the key there is, you see, when you have more of anything that ends up becoming the culture because the culture of any organization is the people. It is the accumulation of the different aspects of people. So if you don’t start making clear what you want the culture of the organization to be, you end up having is the, is the culture of what’s predominant in the people that you have. So it’s really important to set a tone on what you want so that people consciously can start changing their behavior pattern to suit the culture that you want.

High-Performing Teams Start With Intentional Leadership

Jenn DeWall:

I, you know, I think that’s so important. I think that that’s often the piece that we might forget where we as leaders, you know, people that might be listening to this, maybe they have had the opportunity to take an emotional intelligence class, or they might have a little bit more familiarity. So any of you listening may have a better understanding of how you need to control your emotions because of the impact that it has on others. But I do feel like a lot of leaders forget to take that forward into the team environment and to put the responsibility onto those individuals that may not have had that training yet, or maybe you can help them with that training. But, you know, I think that we really do need to start educating people on the personal impact of when we do not show up in a way that’s productive or supportive how that can completely impact culture. Because I think again, employees put a lot of pressure on leaders to get it right. And sometimes that’s totally founded, but sometimes it’s really gotta be on the employees too, to say, how do I want to show up at work? I can’t just sit in victim mode and blame everything on the organizational hierarchy or the leader. Like, what part do I own? Sorry, that’s my little soapbox. But I think that we miss it as an opportunity. It’s often something that’s only discussed at maybe different levels of leadership.

Maureen Chiana:

Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. And the fact is that every single person is responsible for their own emotions. And this is where it’s really important for leaders themselves to understand how they are opposite leadership starts with yourself first. You’ve got to be able to lead yourself first. Then you can lead others because the whole aspect of emotional intelligence is once you understand your own emotions, then you can help others. It’s becoming a coach as a leader. You’ve got to also be a coach to your people, and getting them to then start being responsible for their own thoughts, their own emotions. Because as they say— what you don’t know, you don’t know. If people don’t understand that, actually, they can do something about the way they’re feeling or the way they’re thinking or the way they perceive things or the way their reality is. If they don’t know that, then they will, you know, they believe that the way they are, what they’re seeing is the truth.

But the fact is, is it really the truth, or is it your truth that your brain has created? You know, then you believed it is the truth. And for them, it’s real because that’s, that’s what their brain knows. So it’s really important. I always say that it’s, you know, for any organization, it’s important to train the leaders, but get the leaders to work with the teams or train the teams. And, it has to be over a period of time because brain rewiring takes time. It is, you know, it’s repetition that enables you to create new wiring. Then you cut down the old wiring, and it starts disappearing. The new one becomes the main wiring, but it takes time. So it can’t just be given training. And that said, the question is, how do they then implement it.

You know I’m working with a leader currently who, you know, she’s gone through the course. I think she’s on her seventh module, and she started having problems with one of the team members. And she went. I would never have even thought to even stop and ask the question to the team member. I would have just told them what to do or, you know, acted in a completely different way. So questioning is powerful too, to really engage people because it makes them stop and think. And that process then helps them start being accountable for their own actions as well.

Leveraging Emotional Intelligence to Achieve High-Performance

Jenn DeWall:

I love that, asking those open-ended coaching questions, getting them to reflect instead of maybe just making an observation or an assumption, giving them the opportunity to think through it and describe, so I know we’ll probably weave this in, but so how can you use emotional intelligence to achieve high-performance? What is the framework? What does that look like? If you’re a leader, you’re thinking about how you can leverage the power of EI or emotional intelligence. How do you do that to achieve high-performance?

Maureen Chiana:

I think the main thing because I created a framework, and the main thing I start with is helping people understand that they can rewire their brains. Yeah, that’s the first piece to rewire the brain. Then the next part is emotional intelligence. So it’s able to understand the emotion, be able to control the emotion, manage those emotions, form those relationships effectively so that you can be a better influencer. And then the third one is adaptability, which is emotional agility, or emotional adaptability, which is being able to now change the behavior patterns. It’s possible because once you’ve been able to rewire the brain, then you know that you can actually adapt; you can be flexible. Now you know things are not fixed. And it’s learning how to go back and question your brain about what it is coming up with. So it’s the awareness first and foremost of what’s my brain saying? What are these questions coming up? What’s this trigger? What is causing this emotion I’m having? It’s able to ask those questions, you know, have the awareness, then be able to then adapt and change and know that you can adapt and change that action or behavior. And then the next thing is the connection. We know how you, how you connect with people, how empathetic are you? You know, not being sympathetic, but really being empathetic, how you communicate with people. You know, how do they feel? And this brings us to things like how, how do you make people feel when they’re working in your team?

How do you allocate tasks to people? Is it fair? Is it fair? Or do they feel it’s fair? Do they perceive it as being fair? Or are you just doing it based on what you want? And then the last bit is the transformation, which is actually now taking you through the, you know, being able to be resilient, how to stay motivated. So those are the three, those are the three to five things that I use when training people, and it’s going through each of them are being able to apply them to your work. For everyone, it will be different. Because it’s, you know, I always say the first thing is recognizing yourself first because you, your actions will be driven by what’s wired in you. So it’s been able to now understand, ask the question, how do I respond to this? Am I doing this based on what I want or the way I’m feeling, or am I actually listening and thinking about the other person as well.

Jenn DeWall:

So if I was going to start this framework, the place that I would start as a leader is, I guess it probably would be having a conversation with your team or in one-on-ones and asking them, you know, maybe describing to them what this means, right? A mindset and the impact that it has in terms of their actions. But is it just as simple as saying, like, you know, what are some of the things that cause you confusion, stress, or lower your confidence? Do you have any like, you know, if step one is creating the question, what are some good questions that you can ask yourself?

Maureen Chiana:

So one of the things that I really start with the best thing I do is I use a brain mapping diagnostic tool. You know, I don’t use personality because personality kind of says, that’s the way you are. It’s almost like a fixed thing. You know, when you’re doing personality profiles and lots of people do it, I go, okay, that says, like, that, that says, you know, this profile is saying that I’m an introvert. I am like that. And subconsciously, people kind of believe that that’s the way they are. So they can’t change their behavior.

Jenn DeWall:

Can we talk about that? Like I, because I also don’t love personality assessments. Yeah. I don’t, I think they’re great for little nuggets, but I don’t think, I think a lot of people take them as like, well, first and foremost, we, you know, maybe idolize a different strength or something else that we don’t have. And then all we do is judge ourselves for not being that. I think that they should be used with caution because, again, I think it very quickly puts people into a fixed mindset, thinking that they can’t change it. I’m so glad to hear that you, you have kind of a similar belief on personality because I really, you know, I get that they can be of value to understand maybe how someone is. No, I don’t. I just don’t love that, especially for decision-making purposes or to hire because you’re not seeing the person as the full person. You’re taking it as one thing. And you have no idea how subjective it could be. I just wish that more and more people would maybe see the different side of a personality assessment. And that maybe it’s just a great point of view, but it’s not something that you should use to definitively make decisions on.

Maureen Chiana:

Spot on. So I don’t like them at all. So what I use is it’s a brain mapping diagnostic. What it looks at is your behavior patterns for particular things. So, for example, when you’re doing it, you’re you focus on the subject or aspect, which could be your leadership, which could be work. And then you’re asking a question based on the way you perceive that you know, that situation with that we are able to then determine with questioning. And the typical question could be, you know, relating to why, you know, why you kind of see something the way you do or why you respond to a particular situation the way you have or what we know, what makes you feel uncomfortable when you’re asked to carry out a particular task. Or why, you know, why do you find, you know, why do you find it difficult, having difficult conversations with people, which is a really interesting one. And just digging a bit deeper. Why do you panic when you’re asked to give a presentation? So it’s really able to use that behavior profile to dig a bit deeper into what causes it or into how you perceive the situation.

And because you said at the end of the day, it’s all the perception of, you know, your reality. So it’s been able to dig that. And the key is knowing that it’s a pattern that you can change, a pattern that you’ve created that has developed over time, which you can change. And I always start from that aspect because it kind of enables the person to start reflecting on their own thoughts, reflecting on their behavior, reflecting on how they’ve responded to things in the past or reacted to things in the past. And then that gives us a framework or a basis, a foundation to be able to start working, which then leads us into what we now need to start rewiring. Because if you kind of just jump first into rewiring, how do you know what to rewire? How do you know? Because it, lots of times when you ask people how I get, a lot of people will tell you I’m very emotionally intelligent, but you find out it’s speaking to them that they’re not, you know, they, they don’t even have the (emotional) intelligence at all.

So this is what it’s, it’s more like an eye open in a way it’s like a glass puts in a glass in front of you to be able to really dig deep and find out the truth about the way you really perceive things and the way you’ve responded to things in the past. And then that’s how you then know what to rewire. That then leads you into knowing how to then manage those emotions.

Using Neuro-Science to Achieve High-Performance

Jenn DeWall:

I want to walk through the framework if we can, like, just thinking while you were, while you were speaking, the thought came up because I know a lot of leaders struggle, maybe emerging leaders really struggle at first with wanting to be liked. And so then we don’t have difficult conversations. And so let’s say that that is, or we don’t share valuable feedback, right? Because we don’t want to make someone mad or upset or sad, whatever that might be.

Maureen Chiana:

If I notice that I’m an avoider, how would I then go through this, the process of rewiring? What would that look like? Okay. So, for example, avoiding is a good one. Especially with the brain marker diagnostics we use. Because it comes out that, you know, it’s more when you’re really trying to- where your focus is on making people happy. It could be that, you know, you, you feel that you like supporting people, you really like helping people. You really want people to do well. In fact, that’s a typical example of someone I’m actually working with. And she, as well as, you know, found it so difficult to have difficult conversations or even delegate because she did not want people to feel offended. Or somebody I was working within the same category would, instead of telling people what to do, kind of go and do it himself. So he sort of telling them, giving them the tasks you would do to stuff, because he had told himself that they’re really busy, so why give them more work? And then he then, you know, ended up doing it, which meant that he was not able to do his role as a leader effectively because he was doing everybody else’s job. So when we then looked at it, and we started digging deep. And as you know, we started asking him the questions. Then it came out that he, you know, really did not like upsetting people, or he really wanted people to like him. And you know, on digging in even further, which sometimes is quite helpful, we kind of start looking at childhood what, let you know, you know, how did that start? Is it somewhere in your childhood that you noticed it? And then if at one of the people that I worked with was something that happened when she was young, that then made her feel that way, and she then carries on.

Maureen Chiana:

So the thing now is to then recognize, at this point, your own strengths. You know who you are. Let’s forget about people; who do you see yourself as? And one of the activities I really give people is to, is to go and, you know, they say. There is a worksheet I give them so that they can actually start identifying their own strengths, their characteristics, what people have said about them, you know all the, all the good things that they remember about them that people have said. And in some cases, when it’s quite extreme, I get them to paste it somewhere. They can actually see all the time. Because when you, when you then go past it, and you remind yourself of it, what you’re doing is wiring created wiring in the brain. And there’s a framework I use for rewiring.

So some, some, an example, somewhat something might happen, and it comes up again. I’m not good enough. Because you’re now aware of it, you pick it up faster. So when that thought process comes, you pick it up, and then you can then stop immediately and start wiring. No, I’m good enough because I do this. This is who I am. I’ve got this strength. I’ve achieved this in the past. I know that I can do this. And that is the rewiring process taking place. And even when somebody says something to you that creates an emotion of being not, you know, the emotional that kind of comes with that might create anxiety, or that might create an emotion that makes you feel really flat, or somebody gives you feedback, and you suddenly feel like okay, I can’t do this.

And you suddenly have that emotion of, of loneliness in our kind of call it that immediately. You’re picking it up. And that’s the emotional intelligence that, that ability to recognize it quite quickly. And then you can, then I call it, put the brakes on the brain and then start the rewiring process. And with the rewiring, I kind of call it. It’s able to recognize it, reframe it, release that negative emotion, then reinforce the new thought process that you want. And then the final one is reached, where you carry on doing it until it becomes effortless because then you know that it’s now wired into the brain. And, you know, it takes about 100 says it takes about a hundred days to create new wiring. I say, give it another hundred for it to become a habit and just keep going on until it’s completely effortless. If not, if you stop it and go back to the past, what you will find, is that it will go and pick up where you left off. So it’s important to keep reinforcing that new wiring. So that’s the emotional base. And then the adapting is now being able to really put this into practice so that if a situation happens, how do you quickly adapt to the situation? Instead of either going, no, I’m out, or the procrastination sets in, let me put it off. And you know, it all comes back to that initial stage of awareness. And then it just carries on to the transformation bit.

Taking Ownership to Achieve High-Performance

Jenn DeWall:

I, I love, you know, I think the piece that if I would say anything, it’s just a reminder to people that you have the power you have, you always have it. You can choose how you respond to any situation. You can blame your boss, or you can say in what part of this, or what part of this do I control? I love that you shared. I’ve heard even the thoughts described. And this is a different term that I forget who I got this from. This is not from me, but understanding our thoughts is essential. If you’re observing a street and that each of your thoughts is the different cars that are driving by, and you can choose whether or not to get into that car and drive the I’m not good enough car or the I’m only this, or I’m just a this. And we can also choose to get in the car that says, I am good enough. I can figure this out. I believe in myself. And so this all starts with your ability to understand that it starts with you. No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. I just love that quote because I think it just reminds us of the responsibility. If we want to show up in a different way as leaders, it has to start with us taking that responsibility.

Maureen Chiana:

Yeah. So one thing that you said, there’s a saying that goes, you see the world, not as it is, but as you are. It really starts with you. And one other analogy I use, which is similar to the car as well. You know the brain is like, you’ve got a car and then you sort of going into the driver’s seat and taking the steering and driving, you got to sit in the passenger seat, and somebody else is driving the car for you. And you might be in that car and then going, okay, can you tell him left for this person driving decides no, they want to turn right. You have no control. So they will go, right. Because they are in control of the desk there, even though you’re screaming at the top of your boat, voice, go left, go left, go left, go, right? Because that’s where they want to go. The only time you make a difference is when you stop that car, get into the driver’s seat, stop the engine and drive your car yourself. Then you are in control. And the fact is that we are totally in control. We have the ability to be controlled, but lots of times, we’d let somebody else or something else or the world or the society or whatever that might be, or our parents, you know, from the past or teachers being in control. So it’s really getting back into the driver’s seat and taking that control back. I think this is a great ending point. How are you going to get into your driver’s seat? Make sure you’re driving the car and not anyone else.

Jenn DeWall:

I think that’s a great final closing reminder. Maureen, how can people get in touch with you?

Maureen Chiana:

I’m on LinkedIn at Maureen Chiana. So if you look on my website, which is Maureenchiana.com, but also the I’ve got an online academy, which is the mindsight academy, which has the courses. And one of the great courses that I have is emotional intelligence for leadership, which is over nine weeks. And if you love podcasts, you can listen to my podcast on Lead to Excel podcast or anywhere, apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for the great conversation, Maureen. Thank you for just this beautiful motivation and reminder that our success is all in our hands is actually our mind. We got to get in that car. Thank you so much for joining us, Maureen.

Maureen Chiana:!

No, you’re welcome Really a great pleasure being here. Thank you for having me.

Where to Find Maureen Chiana

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with Maureen Chiana as we talked about how we can create high-performing teams using emotional intelligence. If you want to connect with Maureen or join her nine-week course to help you build your emotional intelligence for leadership, you can join the mindset academy at MaureenChiana.com. If you know someone that could benefit from this podcast, share it. And of course, leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service. If Crestcom can ever help you, please let us know. We offer complimentary two-hour workshops, where we come into your team, help you identify your leadership challenges and how you can connect to create organizational success.

 

The post Achieving High-Performance Through Emotionial Intelligence with Neuro-Leadership Expert, Maureen Chiana appeared first on Crestcom International.

Discover Your Hybrid Professional Identity with Creative Disruptor, Sarabeth Berk

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everybody, it’s Jenn DeWall here, and on this week’s episode of Crestcom’s The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down to talk with Dr. Sarabeth Berk all about our hybrid professional identity. For those that might be unfamiliar with Dr. Sarabeth Berk, she is the leading expert on hybrid professional identity and a hybrid professional herself. She was featured in Forbes. She’s a TEDx speaker. And as the author of the book, More Than My Title today, Sarabeth helps professionals discover and articulate their hybrid professional identity and unique value in the workforce. Since so many of us call ourselves that Jack of all trades or we wear many hats, and we struggle to express who we truly are. So I hope you enjoy this conversation about workplace hybridity, how to look for it in yourself, as well as how to find that within your teams. Enjoy!

Meet Sarabeth Berk, Creative Disruptor

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with Sarabeth Berk, and you might be like, who is she? Well, she is the thought leader. She is known as a creative disruptor, but she is the thought leader of all-around workplace hybridity. And many of you might be thinking, what is that concept? So we’re going to explore that what it means to you as a leader and why it’s an essential thing that we need to understand as we’re looking out into our career and how we can not only manage our own career trajectory but also those of our team, what can we do to create a place where everyone can thrive using their best strengths? Sarabeth, thank you so much for being on the podcast. We are so grateful to have you!

Sarabeth Berk:

Jenn, I was thrilled to be asked. I’m so excited to be here with you!

Jenn DeWall:

All right. So you have to explain it because I know that now I’m really obsessed with this topic, but I have to admit it. It was something that I didn’t know as much about. So could you share with our audience just what the heck? What do you do, Sarabeth, Beth, what do you do? Your creative disruptor. I love that title, but what do you do?

Sarabeth Berk:

It’s so funny that you start with that question because that is literally my research question. How do people answer the, what do you do? It’s a really hard question. So me in a nutshell, and just to clarify, I am a researcher of hybrid professional identity, and that is something no one’s really framed or phrased before. So I’m one part, a researcher from the identity world, like who are we as humans? Another part of my work is career development, and the third part is personal branding.

Sarabeth Berk:

So I’m sort of meshing all those together because the workforce is more than just experts in generalists these days. And people use that phrase. I wear a lot of hats because they’re trying to express, I do many things. I don’t know how to name myself. And what I found is that there’s this level of hybridity that certain workers have, and that’s what I’ve been tapping into and unlocking, and honestly, helping people rediscover who they really are in their work, which is their unique value prop. And then they can stand out and find their dream job and really fit into teams.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I love this topic. So again, you’re going to want to listen to talk about how can we market ourselves? How can you answer that question? What do you do? What inspired you to want to, you know, begin researching or really thinking about how do we answer that question? What inspired you to want to go down that path?

Becoming a Hybrid Professional

Sarabeth Berk:

Oh yeah. I was personally struggling with my own career. I never thought I’d become a researcher on this topic that was not on my radar. My background starts in art and education and design, but lo and behold, every time I had sort of a career change, or I was feeling stuck, I was actually going through an identity crisis, and no one ever told me that people usually look at you and they’re like, Oh, you’re just burned out. Or you’re having some depression or, you know, you’re going through a growth spurt. And really, people don’t talk about identity as part of our work. So when I was having this professional identity crisis and wondering who the heck am I and what do I call myself? And what job am I looking for? That’s when I realized what if I researched this?

And I was in grad school working on my doctorate. So it was a perfect time to do more self-discovery and to use my research methodologies in real practice. So that’s how I got started was asking people like you, what do you really do? And what do you call yourself when you’re doing it? And it led me to this deep rabbit hole that people are so much more than their job titles. And lo and behold, this has become the passion I didn’t know I was supposed to bring into the world.

Jenn DeWall:

But it’s so important because I think that when we, and you wrote a book more than my title, when we think about, you know, us, not only just as the role that we play for an employer, but we can, I love the concept of hybridity and how we’re going to talk about that today because I feel like it gives us the initial vote of confidence. We get to see ourselves in the value that we can bring to a team or to an organization. And so I think it’s an important way that all of us as leaders start to look at ourselves, look at our teams because we are all more than our title. I just, I love that. Like that again, another plug for your book. I love that because I think it’s just empowerment. So what is hybrid work? You talk about that there’s kind of three different areas. Can you walk us through what those are?

Hybrid Workplaces, Hybrid Jobs and Hybrid Workers

Sarabeth Berk:

Yeah. I’d love to give some definitions because I’m sure your listeners are still not clear about what we’re talking about. Yeah. Okay. So just to lay it out there, we are hearing so much in the media right now about hybrid work. It’s just like every headline- and what’s happening. I think the term hybrid work is becoming a catch-all phrase, and we really need to break it down into what we mean.

So I believe hybrid work signifies three parts of the work world. The first is hybrid workplaces, which is really what the media has been talking about, where we’ve got the physical and the digital remote combinations of how workers are returning to work. So part one is the hybrid workplace. Part two is hybrid jobs and roles and like hybrid work itself. And then part three is hybrid workers. The people doing the work are hybrid. So if we take the term hybrid work and put it into workplaces, the jobs, and the people, that’s a very different framework for us to actually have a better conversation and then address what we need to, to meet people’s needs. Does that help a little bit?

Jenn DeWall:

Absolutely. Well, and I think it’s an important differentiator. We’re not talking about the blend or the return to work that you might be seeing in terms of going into a more hybrid working environment. We’re talking about what the, like who you are as an individual and your own unique hybridity as your job. And you talked about it in the difference. And again, I am not the expert, so that’s why we have Sarabeth here. So you’re going to watch me learning as we go or listen, but you talk about the difference between an expert versus a generalist. And that’s kind of a framework for how we can understand our own hybridity. What does that mean?

Sarabeth Berk:

Yeah. So first, I’ll just start with the definition of what a hybrid professional is or what a hybrid professional identity is because I think it’s a type of identity. So my definition is its people who have multiple professional identities and work at the intersection of those. So it’s the integration across these multiple identities that make somebody hybrid as opposed to other people that have a lot of identities, but they’re separated. So I give this definition and explanation in my TEDx talk where I’m like, here’s my main framework. There are three types of professional identities in the workforce. So singularity is the first type. And we usually reference this as experts and specialists. People that only have one professional identity, a singularity, the second type is multiplicity. You have many identities, and we referenced these people as generalists and gig workers, freelancers, or any version of multi-talented multi-passionate multi-hyphenate because that just means many. The third type of identity is hybridity. So think of a Venn diagram, and suddenly the circles are intersecting and overlapping. And so a hybrid professional is in those intersectional spaces because they’re blending and merging and intertwining identities literally into something that we don’t have a name to call it. They defy labels. So we need workers in the singularity bucket and workers in the multiples seat, and workers in the hybridity because the three of those together are doing different functions and serving a purpose on a team or in a business.

But we’ve really been stuck as a society in a binary of just experts or specialists, sorry, experts or generalists, and that’s the singularity and multiplicity. So that’s why it’s such a breakthrough to give people a third choice, which is the permission to be all of their identities at the same time. And that’s the revelation.

Naming New Hybrid Careers

Jenn DeWall:

What does that mean? Have to be your identity at the time? Could you give us an example of maybe what that looks like?

Sarabeth Berk:

Yeah, definitely. So let’s think back like ten years ago, we had workers in the workforce that were doing marketing, and they’re also doing some storytelling and some, you know, digital blogging, and they were taking photos of themselves and posting it. So back in the day, we’d be like, why aren’t you doing these four things like over here, you’re the marketer, but over here, you’re the photographer. And over here, you’re online. Like how does that fit together? And that’s where we’d say this person just does many things. They wear a lot of hats. But when they’re actually blending and merging those three or four areas together, we started naming that type of hybrid a social media influencer because that is the convergence of why you’re storytelling, taking photos, marketing, doing all this stuff. And we didn’t know what to call that. So that’s the beauty of hybridity is suddenly all these parts fit together in something much bigger. And it serves a new role in the workforce.

Jenn DeWall:

When we understand our hybridity, like, for example, if I was, let’s say I’m a social media influencer. I’m not. Because I can’t work on social media, but what does that mean for me? Is it more of that- I have my own understanding of who I am and the value that I bring? So it’s a confidence piece or a competence piece? What does that mean for the individual when we kind of now finally understands ourselves in this different way?

Sarabeth Berk:

Yeah. I love that. So I’ll, I’ll tell my own story to explain this one better. You know, earlier in my career, everyone was saying, Sarabeth, Beth, you can have a lot of interests, but you just have to choose one thing, right? Like, pick a path. And I had multiple interests, and I loved art. I love design. I love teaching. I wasn’t quite in my research stage yet. And it was like, I don’t want to just pick one, but I had to. So I ended up in the classroom, and I got compartmentalized, right? People are like, Oh, Sarabeth, you’re a teacher. And that became the identity I was known for. But I was like, no, over here, I’m making art and selling it in galleries. And over here, I’m creating websites. And I know these things are all part of me, but I don’t know how to show up with all those pieces connected. So I felt like I was being pigeon-holed, and I had to sort of turn on and off different parts of myself, depending on where I showed up or who knew me. That felt really exhausting and unfulfilling, right? I would go to one part of my job and just be that one thing. And then I would switch gears like at night or on the weekends. And I felt that I wanted to be seen. And I wanted to find a place in the workforce where I belonged because all of those different parts of myself mattered. So this notion of figuring out your hybrid professional identity is finally realized, realizing your fullest and truest professional self. And first of all, being able to identify it for you.

Like, I did not know what to call myself as an artist, educator, researcher, designer. And when you list it out, that doesn’t sound like much. You’re just like, great. What does that mean? So the trick as a hybrid is the relationships between those identities. You have to be able to make sense of it for other people and for yourself. So at my convergence, that intersection of those four. That’s why I call myself a creative disruptor. I have a whole process on how you figure this out, but essentially you dive into those intersections and look deeply at what you’re really doing and who you really are. And you notice themes. And the themes that came up for me were being this like challenger and questioner and pushing people and whatnot. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m this creative disruptor. That’s me at my core. When all four of my identities are working in harmony, that helped me finally feel like I knew who I was and I could tell their people. So it was a part of self-confidence and empowerment that I didn’t just have to be one thing at a time.

Finding Your Hybrid Professional Identity at the Intersections

Jenn DeWall:

Like I’m not just, I, and I love that because I think when we typically think about our resume or the past job experience that we have, typically we do reduce that experience in a very simple way, just down to the title, I’m saying, well, I was a merchandise specialist. I was a merchandise analyst. What does that even mean? And I think it’s, what does it mean for me when I know that in those roles, I also had many different things that I was doing that weren’t necessarily solely related to being an analyst or solely related to being, you know, whatever that title was. I feel like I almost forget all of it because it wasn’t reflected in my title. And like, that’s, that’s more or less how I see that. But I’m curious what, what do you think is the role, or I guess, how do we even start to begin your hybridity? Is it as simple as just saying like, I have different interests, this is what brings me joy, or is it much more complex than that?

Sarabeth Berk:

I mean, it’s essential that, but a lot more steps and a lot more digging what I’ve been learning as I interview and support people in discovering their true professional identity and their hybridity, which I think is the top of the journey in your career. If you don’t know who you are, then how do you express what you do and why you’re unique and how you stand out. So personally, I think identity work is the first step, not your resume. But, it does start with this notion when I ask people, okay, tell me what you do. And most people start just listing a number of things. To me, that’s a signal. They actually don’t have clarity on what’s their foundation. I call that what are your primary professional identities? And we typically have three or four is the upper limit because you have a lot of identities and things you do, but only certain ones you’re using frequently. They are your truest areas of expertise. So first, it really is kind of doing a self-assessment of, like, what are my professional identities, list them out, and then narrowing it down, which are the ones that are truly my best area and light me up. And I have a love, and I want to tell the world about it, and then the next step after that is a Venn diagram, put those primary identities into a circle and notice, okay, now who am I in the intersection between these different identities?

That’s a really big question. So that’s where people get stuck, and I use a lot of different tools and processes. Some of it to your point is looking at feelings, like when you feel your best and then kind of letting go of the regular words you use, like, Oh, I feel my best when I’m problem-solving. I hear that a lot from people. And I say, you have to tell me how, like, what kind of problem-solving let’s get more specific. So we do this deep dive into the intersections, and then slowly but surely, there’s an aha moment where these new words just emerge. And it’s like my favorite moment in the process with people someone would say, like, you know, I’m really adjusting tension. That’s why I’m working with this team. And I go, Oh my gosh, did you just hear what you said? You’re the tension adjuster. And they were like, wow, that’s who I am. And so we have these like identity realization moments.

Jenn DeWall:

And it’s just, I love the concept of identity realization moments, because that, I think it’s, that is career clarity. That is that level of, if we’re thinking about, you know, the difficult job of a leader; sometimes it’s creating that environment. It’s creating meaningful work, especially for our younger generations or Gen Z and Gen Y. But when I can see how I can act, and I do that, how, in terms of recognizing, I do bring a lot of value to this team. How, like, what’s the leader’s role? I know we talked about this, and this is still broad, but what is the leader’s role and being able to help an employee figure out their own hybridity?

Sarabeth Berk:

Yeah. I think I’m just starting to investigate more about the organizational side. I think one part is a lot of people don’t feel seen in their work, right. So when I’ve done a little bit of this with teams in organizations, it’s sort of like going back to your strengths finders or some of your own personality assessments and bringing up those kinds of words you’ve learned about yourself. But as a leader, it’s saying, who are we beyond our job titles on this team? Like Jenn’s Director of this and Sarabeth’s, you know, Manager of that, like, what does that even mean? Do we know each other? So doing this kind of identity work with your team members and colleagues helps everybody strip away these job titles and start to reveal the words they want to call themselves and be known as, which is a very different way of being in your work. So when I’ve worked in organizations, my job title has been late Director of this program, right? Just pretty basic. But when I learned about my hybridity and started expressing that and using that more publicly, I said, hi, I’m Sarabeth. I’m the Director of this program, but I really call myself a Creative Disruptor because blah, blah, blah. When I did that double sort of introduction of my formal job title and then my hybrid title, people saw me differently. I got a different response and reaction. They would like to lean in and become intrigued. And it would open up dialogue because they saw me as more than just this program director, they really understood me, and there was more value created, and I felt a better sense of connection and understanding between us. So I think for teams, it’s really about revealing each other to each other and becoming clear on who people are and not just what they do.

So that is so important. And maybe it’s because I’ve just read a book on collective intelligence. So it’s top of mind right now. But when I think of collective intelligence, the ability to, you know, leverage people’s strengths to come together, to hopefully solve a problem in a better way or make a different decision. I feel like hybridity and how we see ourselves is just such a compliment to really bringing the collective intelligence of a team, helping that team understand that you are all more than whatever. You know, someone created that title five, ten years ago, that may not even be the problem that you’re solving anymore, but when you can understand how you add value, I, I just think that this is such a liberating way to show up at work because obviously, it drives meaning, but then we can truly get the best of people. And we aren’t limited by just saying, Oh, they’re – and I think we talked about this in our prep call- Like, they’re, they’re “just a” this. Or they’re “just a” that. Like, no, this person, maybe as you’re talking, I’m thinking, what would I be? And I feel like I’m a connector in some way. I know I still need to flush out my hybrid title and what that would be.

Jenn DeWall:

But if I think about myself, not as a Leadership Development Strategist or Facilitator, but as a Connector, that inspires me to also take different actions into going all-in on really wanting to enhance that value that I bring. So instead of just saying, like, I don’t even know where to go. I think that that hybridity also just helps to understand and reduce our own confusion about what makes us work. I, I think this is so important because people don’t typically you and I are both coaches. Like we know that people don’t necessarily see their value, asking them where they bring value is, is a difficult question for a lot of people. But when we can start to break that into, you said, three or four little things, you can see so much value. And I feel like you show up in a, in a greater way. Or I guess if I come down to even the limitations of titles. I think about what it means to be a director at one organization versus what it means to be a director at another, and they could have the exact same title. It could be a customer experience director, whatever that might be. And the makeup of that role could be completely different. But then how do you even go and interview with a company? If you’re like, this is what I saw here. We get you still can’t deduce your value. So then you’re just grabbing onto whatever characteristic that they came up with to say, this is whom we’re looking for. Instead of saying, no, let me tell you why you want me. Maybe that was a tangent. I know, but I love that.

Sarabeth Berk:

You just hit the nail on the head. I mean, literally, that’s why we’re stuck in this world of words that are just generic and traditional. We don’t really express who we are. Like, how many coaches have you met and how many sales directors and just, we need to be able to use more than just these standard job titles, which are, you know, really about hierarchy and social ranking and status. It’s not about our authentic selves. So the tools I have and looking at people’s intersectionality is about revealing authenticity and communication because then you can understand your value and support it with your work history. And nobody’s doing that. Like I’ve talked to a lot of career development professionals and resume writers, and they’re, you know, building a story for you, but it’s not an intersectional story, which is different.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. That’s, Oh my gosh. I just love this topic because I think it’s, and again, think about how quickly when we understand who we are and we understand how we add value, think about how much more efficient we can be at solving problems or the quality of our decisions improves just because we can finally see how we add that. And I think that that’s got to be a little bit of a relief to leaders that by simply helping someone address and identify their own hybridity, that is one way of showing support. And then also showing them that you appreciate them, that you see their value. And so then they can, I feel, instead of saying, I don’t know what an analyst does besides looking at these numbers over here, but I know what I do here. And then, I feel like I can also self-motivate in a much different way in terms of adding value. I just love this topic. I know there’s a lot of different directions we can go, and I hope I’m not confusing things.

Becoming More Than Your Title

Sarabeth Berk:

No, you’re doing great. I mean, I think in today’s society too, it’s about job mobility, right? And organizational mobility, because what I’m, I talk to a lot of recruiters and hiring managers too, and companies are trying to just break people down into skills. Okay. If we know you have these five things and this person has those, then when we have a new position open, and we need to restructure, we’re going to move these people here based on AI and keywords. And that’s a little problematic. But I think when we look at hybridity like Cyber Security Analyst is a hybrid job. Because it’s blending this AI world with, you know, online and security tools. And they’re finding people that were in financial roles, doing accounting and such actually make some of the best like cybersecurity analysts because of how they were already thinking and working. And that’s a match that’s not obvious, right? So there’s, there’s so much value in understanding the connection between what we do. And if it’s not clear to us as the person doing it, then it will never be clear to employers or our managers or bosses. So that’s why this work is important because everyone is changing jobs more and more like the statistics are people hold ten jobs in a lifetime, across three or four industries. So the non-linear career path is the norm. Like we need to get out of this old thinking. And so telling your story and understanding, okay, as I’m evolving and growing and gaining more identities or subtracting identities, you have to keep understanding, well, what do you do now? And if you’re just saying, I wear a lot of hats, that’s not helping you. Like that doesn’t make it better.

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t know. I just wear a lot of hats. I do whatever. No, I, yeah. That’s not empowering to say that actually sounds more exhausting. It’s where do you focus? Where are you producing the most value? Why is this important today? I mean, I think, and I know we talked about this too because the future of work is going to be different. Right? And I love that you talked about non-linear paths are not the norm and the way that they once were. But what’s interesting because I still feel like even the non-linear path fights with hybridity. Cause even I have clients that will still say, I don’t know, I invested five years or eight years into either this industry or this title, and I can’t change. So we still have to work at showing that you can, and it’s not your title. It’s the skill that you added value or not the skill, but it’s who you are. It’s your path. It’s that crossroads. It’s your own hybridity that added the value. I just think this is so important for where the future of work is going to go.

Sarabeth Berk:

Yeah. And I just want to say. If I said non-linear is not the norm, I meant the other way around. The non-linear is the norm. Just to clarify, because everyone thinks they’re abnormal, and it’s like, you’re not. But I do. I think this is the present of work. I think hybrid professionals are here already. It’s also the future, but truthfully, this has been going on for decades and centuries. I think I’m just one of the first researchers giving this the right language. Because when I studied this notion of multiplicity, right? People wearing many hats, the Jack of All Trades term has been around. We’ve been trying to name this for a long time. And I found over 25 different words that all reference multiplicity. None of them talk about integration. That’s why the hybrid is such a different construct that changes everything about what we’d known about professional identity. So to me, that was so critical to just finally give this world to the world and to the workforce to say you’re not just another Jack of all trades. You’re not just another multi-hyphenate. You can actually become this hybrid. And that’s why you’re struggling to name and talk about what you do, and the light bulb goes off.

So I think for the future of work, essentially, any time you take two existing roles and blend them together, you’re creating a hybrid role. You’re creating something new. Now, eventually, the new thing becomes adopted and normalized. And so it’s not hybrid or new anymore, like social media influencer that’s normal. So there’s sort of this flare and focus where things are two parts that are taken, and then they merge. But then that thing that merged gets connected to something else like that is just the evolution of innovation. A lot of this research also connects to how we do product innovation and category innovation, and business innovation. But what I’m doing is applying it to humans and identities. So it’s, let’s take these external topics and apply them to people and say, we have a lot of different parts. And just for the record, as human beings, we are hybrid humans. Like we have many dimensions of our identity, race, class, gender, social, personal, all of that makes us us. Like, that’s why you’re called Jenn, and I’m called Sarabeth. Those are our hybrid identities. But the trick, this is where I really felt the pain point was if we narrow it down to just the dimension of professional identity. And then we say, wait a second. In our work, we have a whole other set of identities of what we’re doing. Holy cow, there’s hybridity there too. So it’s like sub-layer hybridity. That’s why this became like a new way of helping people see, okay, if I have multiple identities in my work, then I need to understand the intersectionality there as well. And it’s, it’s separate from just your human hybridity if that makes sense.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we are. I just love this because, again, this research is all about inclusivity. What are we, what can we pull out? Because if we’re reducing someone to their title, I’m just going to say, and no data, I have no data, but I think an assumption that when you were reducing someone to their title, that you’re getting a portion of who they are and the value that they can bring. Whereas when you can like take away that title and just start to focus on who are you, what problems can you solve? What makes you tick? And really, look at that hybridity. I feel like that’s when you can almost cast that light and see the full person, instead of just that shell of a person that may be your culture has created, your, your title is created your leadership style, so on and so forth. And I think that also if I could think about even I, you know, my initial or my first career out of college, was that a more, I would say, competitive, you know, environment. You wanted to get promoted. You wanted to go there. And so you very much looked at everyone as competition. And then I think it creates that us versus them narrative, whereas hybridity really opens up that we all add value. It’s not just me. It’s not just you. We actually all do it in different ways, and we shouldn’t be alike. And I think it just supports that notion that every person we meet is both your teacher and your student because we all have something to share. I, I think you’re like going to help. I’m picturing it like the peace that everyone’s happy because they feel seen. Is this the utopia that we’re all going for? Can we create this?

You Are More Than a List of Skills

Sarabeth Berk:

I love that. I really do think this is a movement that I’m starting? And you know, one of the questions I get asked a lot is Sarabeth, okay. If I’m a hybrid, then what am I an expert in? Because everybody feels like they need to be able to convey expertise because that’s kind of just how the job market works. And if you think about it this way- When you look at your Venn diagram and who you are in that intersection, you are the expert of your own hybridity. Nobody else is the same combination of ingredients. And that’s why you’re an expert in it. And so the analogy I use a lot in recipes, right? Like if we were a pizza and you’re putting all these awesome toppings on the pizza, you don’t eat the pizza one ingredient at a time. That’s not a pizza. You eat it as that melty, gooey delicious thing. And you don’t just call it a cheese pepperoni mushroom basil- like you don’t list the ingredients as the pizza title, you call it something fun and delicious. That’s what I think people need to think about is how are you a combination of ingredients, and what do you name that special recipe?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I’m a, I’m hungry, but what name would I come up with? So one of the things that you help and I think that that’s a great example because I think that also we understand that we appreciate it so much more as this package of a pizza and what that is. But it’s also not just a general title. It’s like a self-identified. So I think it’s easier to grab on to. One of the things that you work with individuals with is around an elevator pitch. So how do we answer that? What do you do? What does that look like? And why does that piece matter? Is it because we’re able to like articulate? Hey, you met me. It goes back to what you said earlier. There’s kind of the, tell me more once you can answer that versus the cool. You’re just another one of those directors. No idea what you do,

Sarabeth Berk:

Jenn, you stole it from a mouth. That’s exactly right. I mean, because people glaze over. So the elevator pitch is a three-part thing. It’s a tool I have for free on my website. So go grab it, download it. It is probably one of the best, quick ways I’ve given people help. Because you can apply it in person, you can put it in a cover letter. It can help you with your LinkedIn like it’s adaptable. But the three parts to this pitch. And it’s really 10 seconds. When you say it out loud is part one, like name who you are, express your hybrid title, or that you are a hybrid professional. Part two, tell the parts that make up your hybridity. So what are those core professional identities? And part three is to explain the relationships. How do those identities fit? When you give people those three things because that’s what they anticipate. And they’re going to ask you anyway, you sound very complete and clear, and people do lean in and say, wow, I’ve never met that or heard of that before. Tell me more. So I’ll give a quick example of how it sounds.

The Hybrid Professional Elevator Speech

Sarabeth Berk:

When I do my hybrid elevator pitch, it goes, hi, I’m Sarabeth. I’m a hybrid professional. I call myself a creative disruptor. And that means I work at the intersection of being an artist and a researcher, a designer, and an educator. And when I do that, I’m able to create innovative strategies that radically transform how people and systems are working. Nice to meet you.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I want to hire you! Or like, how can you help me?

Sarabeth Berk:

So it, like, it takes a little just to get there, and refinement, like your hybrid identity, doesn’t come out overnight. Like it’s a process. But even if people don’t know their hybrid title, they can just say, you know, I’m a hybrid professional, nice to you. You know, I combine being this, and this and this, or I work at the intersection of this and this and this. That, in a nutshell, gets the ball rolling. Because if you just list things you do, it sounds different than saying I work at the intersection of these three or four things. It really is just how our brain is programmed. The other thing it does triggers novelty. So our brain is always seeking novelty in life, new experiences, new smells, new tastes. So a novel title or novel introduction helps trigger that same kind of dopamine hit. That’s why people get curious. So there’s a psychological component to this.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh. I love that. We’re also talking about, you know, the gift of gab. If you want to think about that, understand how to better, you know, identify or introduce yourself, and that see where that goes. Because again, if I go into a networking event tonight, I say I’m a Leadership Development Strategist. I think most people will be like, I don’t know what I think about that.

Sarabeth Berk:

Or they’re like, oh, I’ve met another Leadership Strategist. Like they gloss over again.

Jenn DeWall:

Right. Whereas if I look at it, I guess, again, this is me peeling back the layers to try to understand my own hybridity. I know that I’m a connector. I know that I, you know, I’m an educator. I know that I inspire and inspire choice, I guess, would be what it is, like inspire you to see your own choices. And I think that that lends itself in a much more compelling way. Even to myself, I’m like, Oh, I would much rather talk to myself if that’s how I introduced it. Versus, I’m just saying I’m this. And it is. It does sound a lot more. I don’t know, just outdated, I guess, to continue to limit ourselves by not seeing this. The work has evolved. Why do we not evolve the way that titles need to look? Or that how can we, you know, shift the way that organizations are structured to make sure that we are getting the most? Because the other thing you might, you said it was a novelty. But when I think again, the clearer that we can define and understand our own hybridity, that is also the different, the flip side of novelty. I think that’s where innovation lives. That’s where creativity lives because we’re not so restricted by whatever the heck, you know, maybe company-generated title would be, or the perceived handcuffs. I think, too, when we see ourselves by a title like this is my role. Like I, I can’t solve that problem because that’s not a Leadership Development Strategist. So that doesn’t make sense. And I just think that you are opening up, but people’s ability to solve problems that you never even invited them to the table to help you solve before.

Optimal Distinctiveness

Sarabeth Berk:

I’m going to drop one more term that I’m in love with. That’s going to blow your mind, and it’s called “Optimal Distinctiveness.” So this is a theory by Marilyn Brewer. And she was really talking about how people want to fit in while standing out. Right? So actually landing in this space of hybridity and learning how to articulate it and communicate. It helps us, I believe, get closer to this place of optimal distinctiveness, where we can express that we’re unique. But we also fit in that is highly desirable.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh! Optimal distinctiveness. See, I just, Oh my gosh, I love that phrase too. This is to some people that are still like, Holy cow, what is this? This is really, I think again, the key to getting the most out of everyone, including yourself, not shortchanging yourself in short, the small amount of time that we have on this planet, giving yourself. I think this also helps to answer, What’s my purpose? And I think that’s a big question that a lot of people struggle with, or they, you know, head-on into the midlife crisis, and they’re really struggling with it. Whereas this is just giving you answers earlier on. This is such a powerful tool. So how, where, how do they connect with you, Sarabeth? Like where can they get more info? I know that they can go down and download the elevator pitch. Where do they go for that?

Connect with Sarabeth

Sarabeth Berk:

MoreThanMyTitle.com is where all my resources and tools. And I have a book called More Than My Title on Amazon, or you can find it through my website. I offer we can crash courses because people want to work with me and understand my process. There’s a, there’s a whole little workbook too, of course, but you know, I’m on social media, so I’m just kind of everywhere, but more than my total.com is the best spot.

Jenn DeWall:

So, More Than My Title dot com, there you can find access to other tools, resources. You can also get to know a little bit more about hybridity, discover your own hybridity in the form of an elevator pitch, which I feel like the second someone does that. I hope my hope for them would be to see you add value. You have meaning and look at it. You just haven’t seen it before because it’s been concealed or limited because of that title. Sarabeth, I love the research that you’re doing. I think it’s so important. Thank you so much for liberating us and giving us the habits and competence that we need to make sure that we’re maximizing our short time here by living beyond our titles. Thank you so much.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh, Jenn, I had the best time with you. I could do this any day, so thank you so much.

Jenn DeWall:

I want to go into more of these. I’d love to have you back. Well, I encourage people also to tell us, maybe write in and tell us what your new titles are, what you come up with, and we’ll have to have you back just to continue to explore this. Maybe it’s thinking about how we can help and coach our colleagues or peers, or excuse me, our direct reports to help them ignite and find their own brilliance. Thank you so much, Sarabeth.

Sarabeth Berk:

Oh, thank you.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Dr. Sarabeth Berk. If you want to connect with Dr. Sarabeth Berk, you can go ahead and get your free copy of the hybrid identity elevator pitch on her website at morethanmytitle.com. You can also join her newsletter. You can find her book, More Than My Title, on Amazon. If you know someone that maybe is struggling with how they identify themselves, share this podcast. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform until next time.

 

 

The post Discover Your Hybrid Professional Identity with Creative Disruptor, Sarabeth Berk appeared first on Crestcom International.

The Paradox of Choice with Chief Choice Officer, Justin Hilton

Jenn DeWall:

Hi Everyone, It’s Jenn DeWall, and today on The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Justin Hilton. Justin Everett Hilton is a triple degreed alumnus of Kent State University and began his professional career as an architectural designer in Cleveland. Mr. Hilton returned to KSU Kent State University, continuing his career as an award-winning architecture professor and coordinator, and then became the university’s first, youngest African-American Success Solutions Consultant, Senior Associate Vice President, and Senior Administrator for Community Outreach. He’s the first African-American male to ever attain a Master of Architecture degree from KSU and has studied and lived in seven European countries. Moreover, he’s a motivational speaker, philanthropist, artist, entrepreneur, and community servant, and Justin and I sat down to talk about the paradox of choice.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am so excited to be sitting down with Chief Choice Officer Justin Hilton from Ohio! Justin, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. It’s great to have you.

Justin Hilton:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I am thrilled

Jenn DeWall:

Us Too! Justin. We’re going to be talking all about what you have described as the paradox of choice, but before we jump into it, can you just go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience?

Meet Chief Choice Officer, Justin Everett Hilton

Justin Hilton:

Sure. I’m Justin Hilton. I’m born and raised in Akron, Ohio. And I’ve worked for Penn state university for over a quarter of a century. But I’ve also been a practicing architect. I’ve owned several businesses. Been a motivational speaker, lived all over the world. Life has been this tremendous amazing journey, and I’m just excited to be here and to be able to share little nuggets of wisdom that I’ve learned so far.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, we are so excited to have you and Justin, and I were talking to our audience, Justin, you were able to do something really, really neat that I think a lot of people would just love to be in your shoes because you were able to interview Daymond John. Can we talk about that? Like, can we talk about that? Is that you got to connect with someone that is, you know, an aspiration in the business world. Can you tell us what that was like and maybe introduce Daymond to people that maybe aren’t familiar with The Shark Tank?

Justin Hilton:

Sure, absolutely. So this came about as a result of a board that I sit on, which is the Better Business Bureau of Akron, which serves six different counties. And they had been providing service to businesses and entrepreneurs for a hundred years. So we thought, Hey, let’s do this Centennial celebration, and who better to bring in than Daymond John. And so that’s how it all got started. COVID, of course, changed those plans and moved us into a situation where we had to do it virtually. And so when we made that decision, we said, okay, we don’t want to have like a keynote on a stage behind a podium doing their thing. What we want is more of a conversation. We kind of like you and I are having right now, Jenn. And let’s invite the world in to listen.

And so that’s what we did. I had the opportunity of doing a fireside chat with Daymond John, who is literally an African-American man who grew up in the worst parts of New York where statistically, he should have been either dead or incarcerated by age 18. And he wasn’t great at school. He was actually dyslexic, but he was never diagnosed. So he didn’t know it. So he struggled to think that he was intelligent or smart because of the traditional ways of determining that he struggled with. But I will say, and I asked him about this. He has a common-sense creative genius that you have. And so he was able to when he was struggling as a teenager he was able to stay away from the traditional trappings that lead you down the wrong path. And instead, he was able to take advantage of the new movement of that time, which was hip hop.

And he just, you know, part of hip hop was a brand and, and clothing and music. And he just noticed that there were clothes that were part of this hip hop, you know, at the time that wasn’t really intentionally created for African-Americans and certainly young African Americans. And so that’s what he decided to do was to go into fashion and to create a fashion look and a brand that was specific to young African-Americans in the hip hop industry. And he knew nothing about business. He never went to business school. He never went to college. Like none of that, this was OJT, on-the-job training, and he talks about how he failed so so many times, but because he was in the beginning, he was able to make horrible mistakes. But he shut the business down three times over about a 10-year span because he made mistakes that almost killed the business, but, you know, eventually, it’s become a global icon of about $1 billion, and now he’s, you know, on Shark Tank. And he’s just had an amazing life. He has over 41 companies that he’s invested in.

Choosing to Make Health a Priority

Justin Hilton:

And it’s just. He’s. He’s just a tremendous individual. Who’s never forgotten where he’s come from. He has a tremendous amount of business acumen. He connected with a whole bunch of people that we’re smarter than him, so they could mentor him and teach him the things that he didn’t know. And I’ll end with this one thing, which is, which is amazing. I have a tendency of asking people this question, if you could sum up your life’s purpose in three words or less, what would those words be? And I asked Damon John that, and of all the things I just shared with you, you wouldn’t think that his answer was his answer, but his answer was early detection. Isn’t that amazing? His answer was early detection. Come to find out. He was actually diagnosed with cancer. As a result of him following the advice of one of his mentors and getting an executive physical, which he knows is different from the typical physicals you get for various insurance and healthcare. And they found cancer early enough where they were able to treat it. And so he’s cancer-free now. And so he talks about, you can have all the money in the world, you can have all the, you know, you can have everything, but if you don’t have your health, you have nothing. And so he has really stood on this platform of encouraging people to do the mammograms, to do the colonoscopies, to do like, you know, do all of those early detection things, to make sure that you’re taking care of your number one asset, which is your health

Jenn DeWall:

A powerful lesson that I think honestly, leaders can forget about often we get so fixated on or caught up in the busywork, or just always, you know, having things to do. And we come last. I love that message because, again, we don’t. We don’t adhere to it very often. It’s it often takes the consequence for us to look that, look at that and, you know, make different choices, which is going to be our conversation today. But given John, what a great example of what it takes to be a leader, what a great example of persistent choices, and maybe this is a great opportunity to get into the paradox of choice. So you have come up with a concept called the paradox of choice, Justin. What does that mean?

The Paradox of Choice

Justin Hilton:

So that really is a way to talk about how absurd I think life is. Right? In that, we all exist, right? I mean, we’re all here. We’re all alive and yet not really by our own conscious choosing, right? So I never chose to be born. I never chose to be born to my parents. I never chose to be born an African-American. I didn’t choose to be born in America. You know, I didn’t choose to be like all of these things that make me what I am and who I am. I actually didn’t choose. Right. And yet I know that every day that I get up, I’m gonna make on average 35,000 conscious decisions today. Thirty-five thousand conscious decisions today are what I’m going to make. That’s the average number of decisions that people make every single day. So the paradox of it all is I didn’t choose to be here. And yet, I’m making 35,000 choices every single day that will determine the entirety of my life while I am here, which seems absurd. Right?

And so it seems like this crazy paradox, and this really hit home for me when I had my child, my daughter, who was a miracle. And so, just to extrapolate these numbers, 35,000 conscious decisions every day is 1.1 million per month, which is 12.7 million per year. So in the first year of my daughter’s life, I made 12.7 million choices. Her mother, my wife, made 12.7 million twice. That’s like 25 million choices that we made in the first year of my daughter’s life. By the time she’s 10, we will have made as a, as a, you know, mother and father, we will have made 250 million choices. And that’s just mom and dad. You add in their cousins, aunts, uncles, teachers, pastors, neighbors like when you think about it, by the time we’re ten years old, there have been hundreds of millions of choices that have affected who we are, what we value, what we think is good. What we think is bad, what we think is possible.

It determines our hopes, our fears, our challenges, our drinks. Like all of these things are pre-determined by millions of choices that are made by the context that we have unchosen-ly been born into. And by the time you’re 20 years old, the person that you literally are is not really a result of you choosing to be that person. It’s all of these hundreds of millions of choices that have been made in the context in which you’ve been speaking. And that hit me when I was 20 years old. And I lived in Italy, and I had never been outside of the continental United States of America. And here I am, an African-American man in Italy with a bunch of students from Penn State that I didn’t really know. And for the first time in my life, I had this moment of who on earth am I?

And, and how did I become this person? And that’s when it dawned on me that the person I was at age 20 was not the person that I chose to be. So I decided from that point on, I’m going to choose to be who I want to be. And that was easy for me to conceptualize because I was studying architecture overseas in Italy. And as an architectural designer, we make design decisions, right? We make decisions to design hospitals and hotels and houses and all these kinds of things. And then it hit me the greatest thing I could design. It isn’t a building typology. It’s actually my life. And that’s when I decided that I’m going to purpose these choices to become the best version of myself that I possibly could. And, and that’s kind of where this whole paradox of choice and becoming your own Chief Choice Officer started,

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a powerful example of just really showing you how much choice plays into our life, whether it was someone else’s choice and how that impacts us. I mean, I can’t even be thinking that we make, on average, like 12.7 million choices a year. It made me even when you’re first thinking, like how many choices have I made this morning so far? Whether it’s like, what I choose to drink or eat, or what time I choose to get up? Why is it so important to be aware of choice? Like, because I think that this is often the topic that I guess some people, maybe subconsciously, maybe consciously, don’t want to face their choices. Right. We like to think life happens to us, whereas choice is really showing us that it’s all your own intentionality. What, so what, what are you like, I guess, what challenges do you think people have from recognizing that they have a choice?

We Don’t Choose to Wake Up, But We Choose to Get Up

Justin Hilton:

So so your words that you actually chose to speak encapsulate the answer, right? The challenge is recognizing it. That’s the first thing, like awareness. Like recognizing that, okay, who I am and what I am right now might not actually be as a result of my own choice. Right? So recognizing that is significantly important. And then being aware of the fact that I have the power to change that if I choose to. Right? So one of the crazy things about all these choices is if we’re all making 35,000 conscious decisions every single day, they’re going to be different, right. Because we’re all different, but here’s what’s crazy. We all start with the exact same choice, right? We choose to get up. We don’t choose to wake up. We choose to get up. And from that initial choice that every single person makes, then all the choices that we make are different.

Justin Hilton:

Right. But we all start with the exact same choice to get up. And that’s another interesting paradox we don’t choose to wake up. We choose to get up. So that’s where I think it’s so important for us to understand that if, in fact, we wake up, that means that there’s value in our life. That means that there’s purpose in our life for us. Or else we wouldn’t have woken up. Okay. So the fact that we are awake means there’s value, there’s a purpose, there’s opportunity. Like, so, okay. Let’s make the same choice. Get up. Okay. Now from there, how do you navigate 35,000 conscious decisions a day? Like, how do you, how do you actually make sense of that? For me, it starts with the most important choice that you can make after getting up. And that is choosing your wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals, right personal to you.

What Are Your Wants, Needs, Desires, Dreams and Goals?

Justin Hilton:

What are your wants, needs desires, dreams, and goals? And the reason that is so important is that it will become a gravitational force that will pull these 35,000 decisions you’re going to make. It will start to pull them in line so that you can actually start moving in the direction of your wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals, right? They become like this GPS for your choices for that day. And the significance of that is when you are making those decisions in line with your dreams and goals, now you’re on an unrelenting path of success because I think success is not just the accomplishment of your dreams and goals. It’s the person you become along the process of pursuing your dreams and goals. And so that’s really what I think life is all about is this amazing process of us purposing our choices in alignment with our dreams and goals that allows us to become these amazing human beings that are able to share our lives with other people.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. That’s where fulfillment and happiness. We talked about this in our planning meeting. So you had mentioned that there are three important choices. And so the first important choice, if we’re thinking about our range, the first choice is to determine what our own wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals are. So if you’re thinking about how I can even start to practice what Justin is saying, determine those things. So wants, needs, desires, dreams, goals, what is the second choice? Or excuse me. So it’s wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals. Out of curiosity, what if you have a goal that you really want to accomplish? Let’s say it’s to be the CEO or let’s say, it’s even to get that promotion. What do you have to be aware of that could come up in your way, because you might choose the goal, but we all know that plenty of people set a new year’s resolution. And that doesn’t mean that they’re actually going to take action to do that. So what can you do to overcome even that initial resistance or to get yourself even more bought in and like, no, you, you chose this- now, go get it. Because I imagine that there are still some people that struggle with, like, yeah, I want that, but I’m not gonna really make a choice to go and get that.

Justin Hilton:

You’re right. So, so you’ve touched on a super important part of this conversation. Then, when you have the courage to write down your wants, needs, desires, and goals. And I use the term write down like I’m old school, right? Write down your dreams and goals— when you do that, and I encourage you to start with 10, but ultimately try and get to a hundred, right. Try and get to a hundred. When you do that, the first thing that you’re going to hear in your being is probably going to come from yourself, and it’s probably going to be negative. It’s probably going to be a. You can’t really have an Italian Villa and, you know, a place here. And like the first voice you’re going to hear is probably gonna be a negative voice. And that’s primarily because, again, as we mentioned, you have hundreds of millions of inputs, right?

And let’s be Frank. I mean, the world is not this utopian society. I mean, there are really difficult places that we live in. There are difficult relational issues between people, races, religion, et cetera. If you have optimism, then there are also people that have negative perspectives. All of that input is in you subconsciously somewhere. I often say that the term “rationalize” means to tell one’s self a rational lie. The easiest person to lie to is yourself. So when you start thinking about all these wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals, like you’re going to get inputs to say, I don’t know if you can do that. I don’t think you can accomplish that. I want for you to think that you can do blah, blah, blah, and you’ll start rationalizing the possibilities of achieving those things away because that’s just part of human nature, right? So the most important thing you can do after having the courage to think about them and to write them down is, in my opinion, to find a mentor, right?

Find a Mentor

Justin Hilton:

Find your future self, which is all a mentor is, is your future self, and introduce yourself to that person and ask them to mentor you. Right? And if it’s not in a formal context, that’s fine. To develop relationships— I’ve said for years, relationships are the greatest currency in life, not money, but that’s the greatest currency in life through which all things flow. So once you write down your wants and desires, dreams, and goals, get a network of people that can support you. That can speak life into you. That can speak encouragement into you, that can give you information that you need to know. And by the way, that mentor doesn’t have to be an actual physical person, right? If you read a book that it took someone, so Daymond John. Daymond John just wrote a new book. And it was called Power Shift. So Daymond has taken like 40 years of wisdom and put it in a book.

So you can read that book, and Daymond John can be your mentor through the book, right? So mentorship is so key. It’s so important because you can get information on what’s coming down the road. You can get information on the things that you don’t know that you need to know in order to succeed and achieve. And, but, but that in-person mentoring is so important because what you need ultimately in order to become your best self and which you ultimately need to pursue your dreams and goals in a realistic way is belief. You have to believe in yourself. You have to believe that it’s possible. And the most important source of that belief is probably going to be other people who can speak belief into you because I really believe that ultimately, we don’t possess the amount of belief we need to attain our next level. We just don’t have it in and of ourselves. Right. We have to have other people along the journey with us that can speak into us and can speak that belief into us. So getting a mentor is the second most important step after choosing your wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals.

Internal Vs External Validation

Jenn DeWall:

I love that! So second choice. And I, you know, I think I want to ask because I, I just want to have, you know, a fun fireside chat, because I do think that sometimes we’re, we’re not aware of the fact that we can internally validate. Like, I, I think that I was gonna ask you, why do you think it is? Like, one of my perspectives is that I think that people just we’re so conditioned to rely on like, kind of that validation, whether it’s cultural, rites of passage like I’m getting married. I went to college, whatever that might look like. Those become the natural things that we kind of use. And I would love that because those are kind of choices that sometimes they’re intentional for us. Sometimes they’re not someone could have made them before, but I feel like a lot of people, you know, I almost like to look at it as a balance.

Like we’ve been, we spend the majority of our lives up until adulthood relying on external validation. And that’s a great compass point. But then, when it comes down to those big scary goals, then you hear that self-doubt. And it’s saying. I don’t know, Jenn, who the heck do you think you are? So I love the idea of, yes, getting your squad, get your cheerleader there, get your bench. But also just thinking, how can you learn? I just want to plant a seed. Like how can you learn how to even tell yourself that you’re getting it right? That you’re going to figure it out, that you believe in yourself above everything else because sometimes the people aren’t going to be there. Or the words of support are going to be valuable, but you’ll need a little bit more. I’m curious about that. Like w if you have a point of view on internal versus external validation because there’s so much where I found myself in my twenties, just kind of thinking what is wrong with me, or what is this? Whereas if I changed my own perspective, it didn’t matter what some other people thought of me. And so why was I trying to appease them?

Justin Hilton:

So you’re exactly right. I liken it to a question. I ask people as it pertains to breathing, which one is more important, inhaling or exhaling, right? If you don’t do both at some equitable level, you’re going to be in trouble. Right? No, you’ll be passed out, looking for oxygen. Right. So they’re both necessary. Internal and external validation are both absolutely critical. And to your point, because we’re, we all are born dependent. Then we develop these habits of being dependent upon exterior validation. Right. But the most, the most powerful validation you can get is internal. Right? But that’s what. We’re not accustomed to habitually understanding how to create. So I did something very important when I was 20 years old. I wrote my own self-motivation message. It was my own mantra. It was my affirmation statement.

And I memorized it. And it is an internal compass for me. Right. So no one can tell me who I am because I’ve told myself who I am, and I believe it. Right? And so is one of the critical steps that I would advise people is to have their own internal validation statements, your own affirmation statement that affirms who you are, it affirms the value of who you are, and it affirms the value and contribution that you can make this life. There are different ways and different methodologies to creating that that are out there. You know, some start from a position as extreme as, Hey, write your obituary, right? Because an obituary, you know, beyond saying that, you know, you lived and died. It does. It does actually articulate what it was that you’ve achieved in life.

Like, you know, what the value of your life was. That dash your birthday and your death date, like your obituary, speaks to that dash. Right? And so you can do that. You can. You can. You can write that. Another exercise I like to tell people is, you know, we live in a society particularly here in America, where we’ll celebrate certain people within our society. Right. Entertainment as an example, right? You got the Golden Globes. You got the Oscars. You’ve got the Grammys. You’ve got, like. We have award shows all over the place. And I often ask people if you were to get a lifetime achievement award, right. What would that award be for? And what would your acceptance speech of that award sound like? Right. And, and I’ve done this with young kids, which is, and what they produce is amazing.

Right. And then I asked them, okay, well, why don’t you just do that then? Like, if this is the lifetime achievement award that you would love to have, then why not just live a life in that direction of achieving that? Like, let’s just do that then, you know? So so creating that sort of lifetime achievement perspective that can be content that you can use to sort of creating this narrative about the importance and significance of your own life. And I will say there’s been research on this in terms of cognition. What you feed yourself, you will believe- good or bad. Right or wrong, you’ll believe so when you create that narrative, and you start to internalize that thing every single day, every single day, it starts to become a believed reality in your being. And you start believing that and believe in that thing and believe in that thing.

And all of a sudden, it becomes the lenses through which you see life, and your life starts to begin to align with what it was that you’ve already spoken into existence. And that becomes this- once you get to that critical mass, nobody can tell you what you are and who you are and what your value is because you’ve already told yourself to the point where you believe it. And that is that that’s, that’s the wonderful place to be in life. Now that isn’t to say that, that when you dream even bigger dreams, that there’s fear that comes in and that there are challenges, you know, and because, you know, life isn’t perfect, life is going to send you hurricanes and tornadoes and things like that. And, and you’ll still need external people to help you and assist you and to encourage you and to motivate you and all those kinds of things. But man, that internal motivation, that is everything.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely. If we don’t believe it, how in the heck! I love that! Even in leadership, I think it’s an often, maybe under-realized thing that people can tell. They can tell whether you believe what you’re saying. They can tell, like, whether you believe in yourself. And you know, that’s not to judge yourself if you’re not showing up as competent as you want to be, but it is to be mindful of the fact that, you know, we can tell. And also just in the same way, if you’re not confident, it’s totally okay to say, you know what? I haven’t had this experience before. And so I’m still trying to figure out, you know, how to do this. I’m looking for learnings. I’m taking this. It’s okay to be vulnerable. And I know, so I, I just love the importance of understanding that it’s got to start with you and thank you so much for such a beautiful answer to, and that, that is one of the first choices that we get to have is to believe in ourselves.

Choose to Get More Information

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So the three important choices. So we’ve got to start with choosing our needs, wants, desires, dreams, and goals that we have to choose that power team or mentor that’s going to be there. What is the third choice that we have to make an important choice?

Justin Hilton:

Yeah. So for me, that third choice is to acquire as much information as you can. Right? Because you know, knowledge is super important. And we live in a situation in our, our time right now, where we have probably more access to information than ever before in human history, these, these smartphones, which every, everybody seems to have a smartphone. I mean, it doesn’t matter if you’re, you know, the CEO of a tech company, or if you happen to be, you know, a kid like Daymond John, where you’re in, you know, an underprivileged, under-supported neighborhood, we all have smartphones. I mean, it’s crazy. And, and those smartphones give us access to, so, so, so, so much. And so the reason information is so important is because when we take in that information, and we process that, and we formulate beliefs, our actions are based on what it is that we believe.

That’s why it’s so important. You know, going back to what we just talked about, about belief, right? Because typically, our behavior is connected to our beliefs. If you believe something’s good, you’ll do it. If you believe something’s bad, you won’t do it. If you believe something, you know, so our behavior is connected to our beliefs, and our behavior over time creates habits. I mean, we’re essentially going to be victims in our life. We’re either going to be the victims of our good habits or the victims of our bad habits. But that’s what we determine our habits, right. Through our choices. Right? So once you get your positive habits set, the only thing you can become successful. If you have successful habits, that’s just the way it works. Right. But those habits are contingent upon the information that we allow into ourselves that we process that we formulate thoughts and beliefs on that we then behave on those behaviors, create habits and those habits put us in similar situations, but they can similar kinds of information.

So I like to use this analogy if you had a coffee cup. Right. And it was like two weeks. Yeah. And imagine if you, if you had coffee in there and you went on a two-week vacation, and you forgot to empty your coffee, right? So you come back home, what on earth do you think is going to be in that coffee cup? I mean, you know, it’s nasty, right. But what if I came home to visit you, right? I came to your house to visit you because you’re back in town and I wanted to see you. Because we’re best friends. We’re twins. I say, Hey, just come up. And I said, Hey, can I have, you know, you said, Hey, do you want anything to drink? And I said, yeah, can I, can I have a glass of water? And you realize that you didn’t set your dishwasher. The only cup that you have is that cup of coffee with two-week-old nastiness in it. And I asked you for a cup of water, right? How would you bring me a cup of water without pouring out what’s in that cup? Right. The great thing to think about, right? How on earth could you do that? Right.

Jenn DeWall:

I don’t know. I feel like I’d be like, can you drink out of my hand if you’re saying I can’t pour it out? I don’t want to feed you

Justin Hilton:

What do you do? You take it to the sink, turn on the faucet, and you get as much water coming out of that faucet as you possibly can. And you hold that cup underneath that faucet for as long as it takes the, for the clean water to go in and eventually for all that stuff to start to flow out, right? And it might not be 20 seconds. It might not be 20 minutes. It might not be 20 hours. You might have to stand under there for two weeks. You might have to stand on there for two months, for two years, whatever it takes. Eventually, if you have enough clean, positive flow coming in. Eventually the negative, nasty stuff will flow out. Eventually. Right? And that’s the power of positive information. If you can put yourself in a position where you’re getting positive information about your wants, needs, desires, dreams, and goals. Positive, positive, positive, positive, positive, eventually all the negative stuff, there won’t be room for it because it will be supplanted by the positive. And eventually, it’ll just blow out.

And what you’ll be left with is this unbelievably healthy, happy person who’s filled with positivity so that you can be of value to others. I like to say that I spend my time predominantly around three kinds of people. People who are where I want to be in life. Those are the mentors. We talked about that. And I believe in them, and they believe in me. Right? So so that’s key to have that mentorship relationship. And then I spend my time around people who are going in the same direction I’m going so that we can self-support. Nobody’s ever become successful on their own. It doesn’t happen. Right. And, and I don’t know that it could happen because ultimately success is about you becoming your best person and then positively affecting other people. So you have to have other people around you. So I spend my time around it. Do you know what I’m saying? Right.

Choose Positive Relationships

Jenn DeWall:

Cause I think that people, and I’m sorry to interrupt you. I really think that people, you know, we, we are sometimes raised with this belief, that independence is where it’s at, which completely negates the fact that we’re all just interdependent. Whether we want to realize it or not.

Justin Hilton:

And you know, it’s funny. I ask people all the time. I say, Hey, who’s the most important person in your life. Right. And I get, I mean, I get like, well my mother or my dad or my sister, or like, they always tell me someone else. I rarely ever get someone that says, well, me, I’m the most important person in my life. Right. It’s always someone else. So that automatically tells you that we somehow have been created to be predisposed to be concerned with other people, almost more than we’re predisposed to be concerned with ourselves. So again, it goes back to that dichotomy of it’s both/and— it’s not either/or. It’s both/and. So yes, we have to have other people, and other people have to have us. Right. So that’s why I spend my, my a third of my time around people who are trying to get where I’m at so that I can help them become their best version and help them get to their next step, which may be where I’m at so I can mentor them. So I spend my time around people where I’m trying to get to people who are going in the same direction I’m going, and people were trying to get where I’m currently at. So that I can help them, and it’s all about that positive information. It’s all about that positive relationship. It’s all about, Hey, what are your wants, desires, dreams, and goals? How can we make those things come to life? And how can you become an amazing person as a result of pursuing this?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I love this. Justin, every person is with your teacher and your student, because I think your final point is an important one is how we can serve? How can we help others recognize that someone is likely, you know, to offer a hand to us to help us? How can we continue to do that? Justin, this is pretty powerful. I mean, it’s, I love that. It might seem like a simple conversation on the surface. We’re talking about choice here, but you just brought up some really important things. Your life is here to be lived, and only you get to choose it whenever you decide to take responsibility for that. And what you had said, like your three important choices, choose your own, wants, needs, desires, dreams, goals. Find someone that’s going to help you get there, and then pursue them pursue. And I think it’s important. I love that you shared, too, our level of interdependence and surround yourself with the people that have been there, that are going there and that want to be there. I think that those aren’t really, you know, I think that that’s powerful too, because it shows that there’s a value in every single person we come into connection with. It doesn’t have to be a favorable thing, but you can still make it a lesson too. It doesn’t mean just your closing comments that you’d want to maybe share with our listeners today as we wrap up.

Be Your Own Chief Choice Officer

Justin Hilton:

So my closing comment would just be to encourage people to really take this concept of being their own Chief Choice Officer. Right. We understand that there are C-suites that, in certain contexts, we hold highly, right? Your CEOs, your CFOs, your COO’s, right, your Chief, Chief Executive Officers, Chief Financial Officers, Chief Operating Officers, you know, we’re creating different people and, and, and categories to fit in that C suite. But we understand that that C suite, I mean, they kind of run the world, right. You know, whether you’re the C-suite of an enormous corporation or whether you’re the C-suite of a local nonprofit that’s making an impact, you know w we understand that C-suite, but what has never existed within a C suite is the concept of a Chief Choice Officer. And I think that’s primarily because that position doesn’t need to exist inside of the context of a corporation or business. It needs to occur in the context of each of us individually. And when we’re able to get to the point where, as you mentioned, we’re able to have that awareness and understanding that I can choose today to be amazingly different. That’s when we take that chief choice officer from a title, and we make it part of our actual daily execution. So that’s, I would encourage people to do is to really take that Chief Choice Officer concept and implement it into their lives.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that maybe in closing everyone, I mean, they have to be thinking, what are you going to do differently based on what Justin just shared, what choices are you going to make today for yourself, for your dreams, goals for the life that you want to live? Justin, thank you so much for joining us on The Leadership Habit podcast. It has been a great conversation. I love this topic, and I think you just shared a very important message that hopefully is going to ignite some positive changes for our listeners. Thank you so much.

Justin Hilton:

Absolutely. Thank you for having me, and thank you for the platform. I mean, you are absolutely phenomenal. Your energy, your perspective, your impact mean all of it. It’s just. It’s just amazingly significant and needed and necessary. So thank you for doing everything you’re doing, and thank you for changing the world in the ways that you’re changing the world. I really do love and appreciate it.

How to Connect with Justin

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you, Justin.

Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Justin Hilton. If you want to connect with him, you can head on over to LinkedIn there. You can ask them questions, get to know more about him, the work that he does in Ohio at Kent State University. And also take that conversation forward about the paradox of choice. If you know someone that might be struggling with stepping into the power of their choice, please share this podcast episode with them. And of course, if you liked this episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Stick with us every single month. In addition to the podcast, Crestcom offers complimentary monthly webinars. In addition, we also offer the service to come into your organization and give your team a two-hour skills-building workshop.

 

 

The post The Paradox of Choice with Justin Hilton, Chief Choice Officer appeared first on Crestcom International.

Design a More Productive Workspace with Biophilic Design Expert, Oliver Heath

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, it’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with an industry-recognized expert in the field of sustainable architectural and interior design, Oliver Heath. What? Are we talking about architecture and interior design on The Leadership Habit podcast? Yes! And we are going to be talking about how you can actually design and create workspaces that can improve productivity, reduce stress, and maybe actually make you want to go to work. Oliver is a trusted voice of authority in interior design. He’s written three books, and his last, Urban Eco Chic, sold over 30,000 copies in eight different languages. He is a frequent contributor to the likes of The Guardian, The Sunday Times, House Beautiful, and BD Online. And today, he is going to share with us how we can incorporate elements of a biophilic design to create and design the optimal workspace.

Meet Oliver Heath, Biophilic Design Expert

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn, and I am so excited to be sitting down with Oliver Heath! Yeah, well, you may not know him, but he is someone well-known— at least in my book— and in the area of biophilic design. He is an architecture and interior designer who specializes in well-being. And I know what you might be thinking. What in the heck does that have to do with how I lead my teams? More than you think! Oliver, can you please go ahead and just introduce yourself and tell us how you came to be someone that was really vested in specializing in well-being and especially in terms of creating the spaces where we can be our best and perform at our best.

Oliver Heath:

I would love to, thank you! So I run an architectural and interior design practice in Brighton, in England, where we specialize in human-centered design. And when we talk about human-centered design is how we design with people in mind now in particular that investigates health and well-being and the impact that buildings have on people, on their physical, mental, and emotional states. And more specifically, the work that we do is around what we’ve called biophilic design, which essentially is how we enhance the human connection to nature in the buildings that are so important to our lives.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So biophilic design as a definition is how we can enhance our connection with nature in a physical office space.

What is Biophilic Design?

Oliver Heath:

Well – biophilia means a love of nature. It kind of explains our innate attraction to nature and natural processes. It kind of explains it away. Why when we go on holiday, we choose to go to the beach, the mountains and the forest. And when we’re in those spaces, we get this incredible sense of calm and relaxation. And we start to react differently to people. We feel more positive, open, optimistic. We kind of get back to being at our best. And then we go back to the office, and we feel all that stress come back to and all that tension. And it’s as if we’ve never been awake before. So in a way, it’s about how we borrow some of that amazing well-being from being in nature and find sophisticated ways of bringing it back into the workplace.

Jenn DeWall:

I, you know, as someone that is a nature lover, I, you know, we just talked to prior to I was in the mountains this weekend, I love going there to recharge. Please tell me the secret. How do you harness the power of nature? Because I’m from someone that really does get that relaxing feeling, the calm, the sense of it’s okay. And you are removed from that stress. I would love to have it in every single space that I go to or to feel like that. So how do you harness that power?

Oliver Heath:

Well, I mean, I think that’s the amazing thing, that design styles come and go. They can be very polarizing people like this style or that style. It’s too minimal. There’s too much detail. The nice thing about nature is that everybody has had a positive experience of nature at some point. So in a way, it’s about eliciting a similar emotional response to space as we’ve had in nature. And it kind of reminding people how you remember the smell of that forest or the touch of the grain or all the verdant sort of diverse plants. And it’s about bringing that back into places that are ordinarily very cold and stark and lots of hard geometric lines that are very sort of cold and, and more, unlike nature than you’d have believed. So, you know, it’s about bringing some of that, that, that goodness. Now I feel like design doesn’t need to be that complicated. There are three key aspects to it.

The first is how we bring in what we call the direct connection to nature? So this is how we bring in, you know, things like real plants, as you can see here in my office in Brighton. So it’s about trees, natural light, fresh air. It might be about the subtle changes that we see throughout the year. Maybe about water features. The second aspect is about indirect connections to nature. And this is how we mimic or evoke a feeling of nature using natural materials, colors, textures, patterns, and even technology. And the third one is what we call a human spatial response.

And this is how and why we create spaces that are exciting and stimulating and aspirational, you know, to create buildings that we want to go to, but also to create places that are calming, relaxing, and restorative. Because so many of the spaces that we live and work in are exhausting, they’re overwhelming. And when we become tired and fatigued, our productivity goes down. So we need to treat people with some respect and make sure that they don’t get tired because that’s not good for anybody. And to keep them productive, we have to make sure they get this kind of level of micro recuperation. So they’re always performing at their best.

How Can Bring Nature Into Office Design?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. So we said three things there- the direct connection, the indirect connection, and human spatial response. Is there one that’s easier or that you see as more common for smaller organizations to try and incorporate into their space?

Oliver Heath:

Well, you know, I mean the easiest thing, of course, you know, put a few plants in. The nice thing is these plants are just the most amazing things. You know, not only do they look lovely, they add a soft visual texture that we’re familiar with, that it’s kind of gently calming. They provide some movement, create some richness into the space. Many plants can also remove toxins that we find in interior environments, volatile organic compounds, formaldehyde particles that come from the emissions from cars, or all the burning substances. And they can also modify temperature and humidity, remove CO2, and countless studies have shown actually that reducing levels of CO2 can actually enhance decision-making in offices. So, multiple benefits. And, you know, they’re not just nice to look at. They can literally provide a measurable benefit to people and productivity.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay, let’s go into that because I think there might still be some people that are like, why in the heck are they talking about nature in the office of mayor myth? Let’s talk about the benefits of actually creating a place that incorporates nature, whether it’s through one of the three methods that you said. Well, let’s talk about the benefits that the organization can see for the individuals or just the organization itself. I know you, you talked about a few different statistics, which were pretty eye-opening for me, but what are the benefits of connecting with nature?

How Design Affects Productivity

Oliver Heath:

Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the most fascinating aspects of biophilic design for me is that it’s what we call an evidence-based approach to design. Now, ordinarily, most design styles are picked from current trends or things that people have liked. But when we talk about an evidence-based approach, what we’re essentially suggesting is that the work that we produce as designers is underpinned by years of research studies by environmental psychologists that have demonstrated that an increased connection to nature in the built environment can have measurable and tangible benefits for occupants in the space, but also the organizations that run them. So across all sorts of building typologies, there are known benefits. So, in particular, workplace, studies have shown that actually when natural features have been applied, there’s a 15% reduction in absenteeism.

Other studies have shown that when office workers were found to perform from 10 to 25% better on tests for mental recall and functioning when they had the best possible— so looking out onto nature and greenery and movement. And then separate studies by an organization that I work with very closely called interface have shown the office workers in workplaces that have increased levels of nature self-report a 15% higher level of well-being and a 6% more productive, and 15% more creative. So what’s important about this is essentially that we’re creating a business case. We’re saying this isn’t just nice to have. This is an essential component of how we create places that people want to work in and that support them and a physical a mental level to enhance productivity, communication, engagement, and involvement. And, you know, for me, it, it just says, you know, you’ve got to be doing this. It’s not a nice to have, you know, you’re, you’re now competing against other organizations in what we call the war for talent. So how do you get the people to come and work for you? Well, you create a beautiful lush environment where people walk in, and they can understand that through this sort of diverse element of greenery and spaces, that there’s a space that can actually support them, not just to survive, but to thrive and flourish.

Jenn DeWall:

You said a lot of really powerful things that I think, you know, a lot of leaders are like, I would love to reduce absenteeism. I would love to create a place where people are more productive, but then also, as we think right now, you know, burnout rates are so high. I love that when we can focus on creating that physical environment that’s better for someone’s space, we can have an impact on that mental well-being, which is so important. I love that this is one way that we can really approach mental wellness like mental health. Again, there are other options, but this is a great, easy, accessible one for people to start maybe incorporating. How has the pandemic affected this? Is it that people that are kind of creating spaces that are boxier then, and they don’t even look at that. Like, how has the pandemic impacted how we work and the biophilic design that you’ve done at home?

Biophilic Design at Home

Oliver Heath:

Yeah, I think prior to the pandemic, it was clear that people felt that it was their employers who bore the responsibility of the health and well-being of the workplace. So there was an expectation that the workplace should be delivering on enhanced well-being through air quality, access to natural light, good ergonomics. Now, when the pandemic hit, we started to work from home. It was clear that we were all having to kind of find places in our homes. You know, we weren’t necessarily, it wasn’t a given that anybody had spaces, but we had to find spaces that could support our intended activity. And I think what happened was that because we were not having that rich diversity of spaces that we would have in our ordinary lives, that suddenly we recognized just how much architecture affects us, because, you know, we’re surrounded by it. It’s very, multi-sensory contains us. And it really does affect our physical, mental, and emotional states. So I think over the pandemic, what’s been clear is people have been locked at home in a single space. They started going a little bit stir crazy. They’ve got cabin fever. And I think people recognize the need to connect with nature as a means to recuperate, to relax and reduce stress maybe at the beginning of the day to get out and get what we call a photon shower, which is an intense burst of natural lights, very good for circadian rhythms, or perhaps at the end of the day, just to sort of de-stress to relax. So people have been getting out, walking, connecting with nature in the UK. We see a massive increase in the number of people who are now getting dogs and really benefiting from the kind of change in physical activity they have because of those dogs. So, you know, the lots of, lots of subtle ways people have really valued that, that nature connection.

How Does Office Design Go Wrong?

Jenn DeWall:

Where do organizations get it wrong? I mean, I struggled because I— I will say this— and it’s a personal preference. Sometimes when for me, a building is very modern. I can see aesthetically that it’s wonderful and it’s beautiful, but it can also feel really sterile and not necessarily freeing. It doesn’t feel warm or relaxing. Even though I can appreciate the design, it doesn’t elicit a [positive] response. And I’m assuming many organizations might be like, yeah, I get the, you know, that modern, that trendy, that neat technique. And we don’t even consider that. So, where do companies get it wrong when they think about their office design space?

Oliver Heath:

Yeah. This is really interesting actually because I think a lot of organizations use design as a means to express identity, power, wealth, status. You know, we’re a big company, we’re powerful. Look at our design, you know, it’s cold, it’s hard, it’s all stair. We’ve got people inside this building, they’re doing jobs, and they’re doing well. They’re like little cogs in a machine. So that, so in a way that they’re using design to express an outward message of power and wealth and status, now I call that, you know, essentially that’s a very extrinsic message. It’s pushing it out there. And well, our approach is much more intrinsic. We say, well, what about if we turn that around completely? What if we just design buildings that put people in the best physical and mental state to do the task at hand? What would that look like? What would it feel like? What would it be like? What would it be like to walk in in the day? How would it help you to be productive when you’re sitting at your desk? How might that help you to connect with others and have creative conversations? And how might that help you feel better when you leave at the end of the day so that you have a good work-life balance that you can go home and not feel stressed and that you can sleep well and come back to work, feeling refreshed and had excited about doing another good day’s work.

So this intrinsic approach it’s really about putting in that deep, in the best, most positive, optimistic, and open state so that when they pick up the phone to somebody, they’re not angry, they’re not stressed. They’re like, how are you doing? You know, having, you know, and having a really good open conversation because to me, that’s what I want from my staff. I want people to feel happy, to be excited about coming to work, and to be in a really good mental state to do the work that I need them to do.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. So organizations may get it wrong by just not including or incorporating any elements of nature and maybe not considering the warmth. So the warmth that it takes, and trying too hard to, I guess, lean into the brand of what they want that to look like instead of the human side. And I’ve definitely been in organizations where- and again, they look so glamorous, they look so cool, but it’s not necessarily the place that I would thrive in. And I know we’re going to talk a little bit about what you can do, but I think of even organizations that use a lot of like very bright colors and like how that can also feel overwhelming, it doesn’t feel as natural or just those hard lines. So if companies get it wrong, it might be leaning too much into your brand, creating a more sterile environment that doesn’t necessarily foster that. And it’s, so you’re not necessarily saying it can be any type of design. It’s just that when you do not include nature, so you could have a very modern, beautiful design, but you can incorporate nature. So we’re not saying any design is bad, right? We’re just saying that you need to also incorporate that element.

Oliver Heath:

Yes, yes. Biophilic design is an evolutionary design ethos. It sort of builds itself on that basis. But as human beings, we evolved in very close connection to nature for 99.5% of human evolution. And as a result, we have a genetic inheritance that allows us to recognize landscapes that can help us to survive, thrive, and flourish, and equally landscapes that are potentially threatening. So if you can imagine walking into a workplace where it’s just row upon row upon row of desks,                                                                                                 and you’re, you know, row F-5, you know, all of you know, A-Z rows of death. I mean, your heart’s going to sink at that. All it that’s all it is. Think about the lack of diversity, just the sort of monoculture of your daily experience. But if you were to walk into space where you can see that you can work in lots of different ways, there’s somewhere to sit and work by a window, to have a bit of privacy. There’s somewhere to have a little quiet conversation. You can pick up some food, some drinks. You can have a little conversation. There’s a meeting space, maybe a town hall. There is kind of little workspaces that have acoustically private or meeting rooms. And that there, this sort of diversity of spaces matched by diversity or furniture, but also plant life. You will immediately understand that this space is going to support you in all the different needs and physical and emotional needs that you need throughout the day. And also, your work needs so that you can work in different ways in a variety of different spaces. So in a way, it’s that sort of the richness of the diversity of spaces and products that you have in that, and of course, planting and greenery that immediately puts you at greater risk because space delivers on all your physical, mental, and emotional needs throughout that timeframe.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. What do you do? Because I have absolutely worked for multiple organizations where I have been in the gray cube land. How do you even begin as an organization to approach this? Because I worked at one organization where there were over 3000 people in our corporate office. So if you could imagine the number of cubicles we had, we had a lot! But how do you start? Like, how do companies even start this is? I know we’re going to get more into the design, but how can you start with even cubicles? If you’re in an organization, what do you do? How do you take the gray and make it green?

Great Workplace Design Can Attract Talent and Reduce Absenteeism

Oliver Heath:

You know, your organization is made up of people. And, and I think for a lot of organizations, 90% of typical business operating costs are on stuff. So you put your people first, and whilst you may have what we call in the UK facilities manager, do you have those in the states? They manage the building. Who may be the person in charge of the building and the layout? They may be the one that’s leading the kind of consideration of how well that space is working, but actually, it’s the people in that space that are going to be experiencing it on a day-to-day basis that really should be talked to. So what we promote is the idea of pre and post-occupancy evaluations. So essentially, it is surveys that help you understand more about the state of that space. There are quantitative aspects that measure things like the level of light temperature, humidity. You might be measuring things like absenteeism or workplace injury.

Oliver Heath:

So these are things you can put little numbers to. And then you’ve got the qualitative aspects. And very often, buildings are- qualitative aspects, basically asking people questions like, how do you feel when you walk into the space? Does it allow you to be productive? Do you have connections to people that you may not otherwise bump into? How do you feel at the end of the day? Do you sleep well? You know, some of these qualitative questions are really important because very often a building might measure or write in one aspect, but when you speak to people, okay, this building doesn’t reflect who we are. I don’t like it. I feel embarrassed by it. I’d never bring people here. And we’ve literally worked on buildings where the quantitative and the qualitative aspects are completely diametrically opposed. So we always suggest that the organizations undertake the survey to really get under the skin of what it’s like to work in that place.

And we’ve written a white paper with our knowledge partners, Interface Flooring. You can download this from the interface or from our website, which is OliverHeath.com. And this is basically an introduction to pre and post-occupancy evaluation. Essentially it’s about getting your design right from the outset, not just having one person with an opinion, but gathering that data and understanding what it’s like to work there and how the needs of those people should inform what the design is eventually going to become.

Jenn DeWall:

So start with your people. I mean, have maybe you’re the secret ingredient and to making people want to go to work?

Oliver Heath:

Absolutely. Yeah,

Jenn DeWall:

I mean, if I knew that I was going into a place that was going to feel calmer, I would, you know, that absolutely changes the mindset that I have for going in and doing that, especially if it was in, you know, the cubicle environment where I may not even see a light that’s natural unless I go out for lunch. But if I eat at my desk, then chances are not. I think the only natural light I had, and I was very lucky in our cubicle land, was that there was a big atrium that I was next to. So I was fortunate to have that sunlight, but many people were just between gray cubes and white walls, which I don’t know why we ever thought, like, this is probably a great place for people to, to work. They’d probably love this. Like where, why did we start like that? Why is that the root of office design? It has to be there, you know, this basic, like we’ll put the gray cube there, we’ll get those white walls. This is all fine. Do you know anything about the history of when they decided to even create these color schemes or kind of the aesthetic of a modern-day office?

Oliver Heath:

Yeah, I mean, I think it was in the forties and fifties, maybe the sixties, when we started to look at how we might enhance the productivity in the layout of workplaces, you know, human beings are very adaptable. You know, we can technically work in those spaces. Are we getting the best out of people? Probably not. You know, so we really do need to kind of put people first and go, well, how, how would you feel better? How, how would you work without stress?

The 20-20-20 Rule

Oliver Heath:

You know, stress is enormously damaging. A little bit of stress is probably good to have a deadline, but if people are under constant stress from their workload, from social media, from emails, from deadlines, then actually the body’s sympathetic nervous system doesn’t have an opportunity just to stop. If you think about how we evolve, we might have had intense periods of activity when we were hunting and tracking, but actually, being able to stop to recuperate allowed us to regain our physical and mental approach and to get back to being at our best. But if we’re always on, that’s when we’re at risk of burning out. So essentially, as biophilic designers, we look to kind of create places where people can have that intense level of work but also have that opportunity to stop, to reflect, to recuperate. And we promote this idea called the 20-20-20 rule, which means basically every 20 minutes, people stop for 20 seconds and look at a distance of 20 feet away.

Oliver Heath:

And that just relaxes their eyes. It kind of reframes you just for 20 seconds that allows you to get back to being at your best. So it’s kind of one small little thing that you can do, even if you’re in a cubicle, just stop and just get that longer view. You might have to stand up or stand on a chance to do it, but, you know, if it means that your productivity isn’t going to be hindered and your stress levels have kept managed, then I think that’s probably a good thing.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. I just want to say it, but I want to say it a little bit slower, so excuse me. So now we’re moving into one way that you can, oh my gosh. Sorry. Hi. All right. So now we’re kind of talking about, you know, just different things that you can do in your own place. And one of the things that you just shared. So the 20-20-20 rule says that for me one more time, just a little bit slower. So every 20 minutes, I stop, and I, I know I looked for 20 feet distance of 20 feet. What was it again? Okay. Every 20 minutes for 20 seconds, look at a distance of at least 20 feet, but hopefully, outside, it’s gotta be outside?

Oliver Heath:

Yeah, no, not necessarily, but I think if you can look onto plants and greenery, what has been sort of demonstrated again, is that sort of around and exposed to nature is a very good way at reducing stress.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. Okay. Fantastic. Like, I love that it’s the 20-20-20 rule. That’s a pretty easy one. Just reminding yourself that you’re likely going to be, you might be grueling looking at a challenge, but taking that break just to give yourself that mental reset again, we’re talking about simple things that you can do to create an environment that supports your well-being because we do want to be so mindful of stress. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I have so many friends lately that as a result of the pandemic, have been overly burnt out with a lot of different health challenges, just from, you know, stress, keep going, keep going, keep going. And I love that here’s one accessible way that we can start to kind of make a better design place. So I want to back it up. You talked about the three different ways that we can do it. So if we’re starting with the direct connection, then that’s adding in plants and trees. Like if you wanted to approach having, or excuse me, incorporate the direct connection, what could you do?

Natural Light is Essential to Workplace Design

Oliver Heath:

Yeah, so, so getting more natural light is probably fundamental to that. So, so natural light balances your circadian rhythms. Your circadian rhythms are your body’s reactions to periods of light and dark across a 24 hour period. It affects your mood, your behavior, and the body’s hormone release. In particular, is the release of melatonin and serotonin, which are the body’s sort of control of the sleep-wake cycles. So if we don’t have those sort of subtle changes that we see in natural light throughout the day as the sun, as the light goes from sort of orange in the morning to yellow, stimulating blue in the middle of the day, and then yellow and orange and red into the evening.

Oliver Heath:

And, you know, as we, as we spend so much of our time indoors, it’s under a single color temperature of light, but when we have more natural lights, our body can sync up to the kind of the changes the diurnal changes that we see. So having more natural light is really important. So doing a simple thing by moving our desk closer to the window, facing the window, means you’ve got light falling onto your face now. So when you’re doing a, you know, I kind of online conversation like this, you kind of well lit, but also you’ve got the art, the light falling into your, your eyes. So your body’s circadian systems are becoming more level and balanced. That will mean that you’ll sleep better at night, and you’ll wake up feeling more refreshed, able to do a good day’s work. So that’s a really simple thing when you have more natural light, the plants thank you as well. So they grow, they flourish, and we know that plants can help remove CO2, produce oxygen, remove toxins, modifying temperature, humidity, multiple benefits from plants. So, you know, natural light plants, they kind of go hand in hand together. And if plants can survive and flourish, then you know, so can humans.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I, yes, I love the natural light comparison. You actually inspired me. I know that we had our pre-call a few weeks back or last week, and yesterday I took my laptop, excuse me. And I went, and I sat outside on my patio, and that’s what I did for work. I’m like, Oliver would tell me that I need to make the 20-20-20 rule and, or at least take a moment to look at nature because I think you gave me a tip on looking at nature, but I did do that yesterday. I’m like, am I? They’re going to work in my dining room facing the natural light, which is outside and a piece of nature, or going to work my back patio. And that’s what I did. So thank you very much for those tips because they very much stood with me and it was nice. It was nice to be removed from my environment that has natural elements to some extent but really doesn’t. And I know we’re going to talk and give a few more tips, but thank you for that. So when we go into indirect connection, that was all about then the colors of nature. So how do you replicate that? Is that just with, maybe we can change the way or the walls of cubes start there. Maybe I should write a letter to cube manufacturers. Can we start with not producing gray?

Using Colors to Create a Productive Workspace

Oliver Heath:

Yes. Yes. So, we use a color theory called ecological balance that suggests that we react well to colors that we’ve had previous experiences of. Now, as a population in general, we’ve had positive experiences of nature. So the theory goes that if we use colors that are, have elicited a positive emotional response in nature, we bring them indoors. They can elicit a similar emotional response. So the suggestion goes that there are sort of shades of blue or calming, relaxing, and restorative that remind us of cool, calm pools of water. Whereas shades of green might be more energizing and inspirational, and creative. They remind us of the fresh shoots of spring and all that incredible energy that we get this time of the year. Whereas yellows might remind us of the wards that some sunshine and bright summer crops, they’re very kind of warming, welcoming, and sociable colors. So they’re great in kind of a canteen or cafeteria spaces, social areas of bringing people together, making people feel kind of happy and open and optimistic. And then sort of reds and oranges are more energizing and stimulating and have to be a little bit careful not to overwhelm people, but they’re a little bit like the energy associated with fresh fruits and berries and the energy that you might need to expend from gathering them, but also from eating them.

Oliver Heath:

So it’s about how you use those colors in the appropriate ways and appropriate proportion. So not overwhelming people with blues or greens or yellows, but just kind of introducing those colors. And it could be as simple as, you know, adding them into fabrics, maybe wall colors, maybe even paintings maybe, you know, there’s the color of surfaces as well.

Jenn DeWall:

So green is the one that’s energizing, right? So that’s spring. If I’m trying to remember, this blue is cooler—

Oliver Heath:

Great. So thinking about where you find them, so energizing and creative as green shades of blue and more calming and relaxing yellows, this kind of very warm, welcoming color. Reds, reds, and oranges, you know, more stimulating.

Technology Can Help Bring Nature Indoors

Jenn DeWall:

Now, what did you mean when you said, okay, so we can consider those. That’s fantastic. What did you mean when you said technology? What technology with that nature? I think we’re talking to opposite sides. No, I’m teasing.

Oliver Heath:

And this is the amazing thing that actually, so much technology is developing to mimic and evoke a sense of nature. Both in the way that we produce materials but also how we represent nature. So think about, you know, our kind of really cliched one is you might have a TV screen with a flickering fireplace. Yeah? So we get all that kind of beautiful movement of the flames are getting the colors. You might have the sound of nature and, of course, that’s a TV screen representing it. But now, with high-definition TVs, what we see organizations do around the world, and I visited one in Japan recently was creating sort of recuperation rooms where it happens for great, big, very, very high definition TVs. They filmed local natural landscapes that people may have visited, just a static shot of a waterfall cascading down with trees and birds flying around. You can literally see the mess rising up. You can hear the water and people just sitting in chairs, looking back in a darkened room, watching this very calming, very gentle scene. And it brings up this idea of what we call non-rhythmic sensory stimuli. That’s kind of a complicated name for something you would probably know; non-rhythmic sensory stimuli is that very gentle calming feeling when you start to have a sense of movement. We see in nature like ripples moving on a pool of water, or maybe trees blowing in the wind. You know, it’s things that are constantly moving. It remained the same, that very non-threatening, and these things are very good at relaxing in the story. And you know, most built environments are very static. So introducing the sense of nature is really good.

Oliver Heath:

Now that might happen on a TV screen, but increasingly what we’re seeing are many technologies, be they acoustic or olfactory. So, you know how you produce scents or even sound to help multiple senses. So I’d say like a water wall might re-circulate water going down a wall. What that does is it introduces the sound of water. You get the beautiful non-rhythmic sensory stimuli of the movement. And you also get that increased humidity, which you can feel on the skin. So you think about the sort of three different senses that can refresh and restore and also help to distract from otherwise sort of potentially conflicting acoustic bits of information, what speech?

Jenn DeWall:

Sure. Oh my gosh. I wanted, like, I want this for every place that, you know, is that big gray corporation that I’ve worked in many times. And I know many people have just even having and replicating that experience. I think that’s such a great way to use and leverage your technology or do a sound system. Thank you so much for explaining more about how we can leverage technology right. It doesn’t always have to be a bucket of paint you can do or a picture. It could also just be putting an active, like a fireplace or a fire that’s on the screen or waterfall.

Oliver Heath:

Fish tanks are another good one. Do you know what I mean? There’s a lot of technology that goes into fish tanks, but again, it’s sort of produces that that beautiful movement and the richness of colors and that sense of nature.

What is Human Spatial Response?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I love that. What about the human spatial response? So can we go a little bit into that one? I think that one’s probably the most. What does that mean? I don’t know what that means. What does the human spatial response? Oliver, I’m just gonna own that. I don’t necessarily know.

Oliver Heath:

It’s complicated. It’s okay. It’s okay. So, so basically, it’s about producing spaces that are exciting and stimulating that when you walk into them, you go like, wow, look at that, it’s amazing, but also spaces that are calming relaxing. So with know that certain types of architectural features excite us and stimulate us. So imagine I’m looking over an atrium over the handrail and looking down ten stories. What’s that going to do to you? You know, if you have vertigo, you’re going to get that sense of like that, you know, you’re going to feel that rush of blood. And if you walk under a gantry or around a waterfall, then again, it can, it can stimulate you. It can stimulate adrenaline. It can complicate your excitement about walking into space. Maybe, you know, it’s about creating areas that have that palpable sense of buzz and excitement. So that’s about creating that, that sense of real excitement or aspiration about the building. And equally, and I think this is the one thing that so many organizations get wrong is, is the kind of relaxation, recuperation, restoration aspect. You know, having people burn out is not good. You know, having people leave organizations to take time off costs organizations and incredible about money, but having somebody sit in a chair, look over a waterfall or a view of trees, or just have a moment in the sunlight. You know, even for five minutes, if that’s all it takes to relax somebody, to get them back to being at their best, to give them a moment, to get to, you know, reduce that stress and get them back to their desk. Then how damaging is that? Truly it’s far better to help people manage stress than to have a build-up to the point that they can’t come in. So, you know, it’s the one thing we see organizations really get wrong is going well, no, we’ve got all these spaces, so you’ve got, you know, it’s just on, on, on all the time, we’re not designed as human beings like technology just to be on all the time. We really do have to stop. We have to manage our sleep. We have to make sure that we stop to eat, to communicate, to have a break, to change our headsets, and even just have a moment to ourselves. It’s just so important.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you bring that up because I’m going to translate that into maybe how I see it. And I was working with a client. This was actually last evening. And the reason that she is leaving her job, one of the reasons, is because she can’t even take a 15 to 25-minute break. If she was going to take one, right? She’s a salaried employee. She works more than eight hours. Let’s call it 10 or 12, but she can’t take a break because then if she’s away from her Slack or her Google Hangout, that’s when frustrating. They expect an on-demand response. And her challenge with that is I can’t even just go for a walk outside quick to, you know, decompress, to unwind, and we need to find and build-in opportunities for people to unplug. We cannot; I love that you said that we cannot be continuously on. There’s no way! We don’t have the momentum for that. You don’t leave me enough free cookies in the lobby to even make me go that far. No, I’m teasing, but really we have to be mindful of what we are doing in our spaces in our life to give people the breaks, to decompress, sit with nature and just unwind. So what, what are the simple things that we can do at home?

Oliver Heath:

Well, I, as I mentioned, you know, firstly, you know, reposition your desk near a window. If you can get a view onto some level of nature, whether that’s trees or plants that generally move, then that’s a really, really good thing. Make sure you take regular breaks. So go outside maybe in the morning, maybe in the evening, get some connection to nature. Fill your space with tactile surfaces and think about your what we call the haptic journeys. And haptic journeys are on a sort of sense of touch. So I think about, you know, what’s on the floor, maybe you’re going from stone floor in your bathroom to timber, to rugs. Think about your acoustic environment. I think very often people are working in, in not in spaces that are very distracting as human beings. We can’t actually filter out human speech very well. We can get used to all the sounds and get kind of habituated to it, but human speech is very difficult and very distracting for us. So minimizing that maybe masking it with other natural sounds of birds on the water is very, very good. And there are, there are lots of apps that you can download just to provide a sort of masking level, of water noise or background bird noise. What else can you do? Tactile surfaces, colors, even images of nature and walls can be very good.

The Power of Soup

Jenn DeWall:

Little things. So even if you’re at home and you’re remote environment, you could add in some plans you can T you can turn your desk, and you have that window view. I love this. There are simple things, be intentional about the workspace that you’re creating because it has so many benefits to our mental health. Oliver, let’s talk about the final wrap-up story, which is just a beautiful tradition that you do within your organization. All about the power of soup! Because we’re bringing it back. We’ve got to bring it back. What is the power of soup?

Oliver Heath:

So the power of soup is an idea that we’ve developed in our office. And it’s a really simple thing. Ordinarily, in organizations and in many workplaces, people sort of sit and have lunch at my desk. I’ll bring a sandwich like I’ll buy one and sit at their desk and look at the computer. But that’s what they’ve been doing all day already. And they’re just sitting there in their chair. So what we do, or we ordinarily do before the pandemic, and we hope to get back to it. We really miss it. It is basically producing and making soup in the office. So basically what happens is mid-morning, we’ll start about the soup, cause it’s the highlight of the day, rather than working, you know, here. So, so we’ll start talking about ingredients. Somebody will pop out to the shops, and we’ll come back, chop, prepare the vegetables, put them into a soup maker, turn the soup maker on. And then half an hour later, we’ve got, we’ve got to have some whole pot of steaming, fresh soup. Everyone gathers around the table, and we just stop for half an hour, and we eat, and we share soup. Now the lovely thing about that is it. It’s very sort of democratic.

Oliver Heath:

Everybody sits around the table; everybody has to stop work. And that’s really important. You stop, you, you, you kind of don’t look at your screens, and we have a chat. You know, we talk about, you know, what are you watching? What box sets, what are you reading? You know, what things are you noticing that people are wearing, listening to, what are kind of trends? And it’s been so fantastic, just this opportunity to reconnect with the people around you. To start to recalibrate, but also to talk about ideas. And you know, one of the interesting things about biophilic design is that it’s not just about how it affects us individually, how it reduces stress and helps us to recuperate. There’s also an associated psychological element to it as well about how it can enhance the connection to places, spaces, and the people in those spaces. So thinking about the senses and using our gustatory senses, that sense of taste, we use soup as an opportunity to connect with one another, to bring people around our kind of mindful moment of sitting around a table and having a conversation really amazing.

Oliver Heath:

It’s just the number of ideas we have when sitting around the table, eating soup, you know, because you know, when you start to talk, you share ideas, you share knowledge, you say resources. And from all of those from different people, you start to innovate. You come up with new ideas, and a business-like us as designers thrives on innovation. So the “Power of Soup” is all about how we use our senses to get people, to connect, to talk, to share ideas, and come up with new ideas.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that, Oliver. I want to come over to Brighton sometime and get that soup. I would love it. And you’re right. Innovation is all about building on the other or on other’s ideas. How can we replicate that? How can we create a place where people can connect? They disconnect from the computer, and they’re actually still kind of working if you’re talking about different things, but it’s not in the same way. And we actually just get to build that sense of community over. Thank you so much for just sharing with us different ways that we can approach our mental well-being, how we can create spaces that people can thrive in. How can people get in touch with you? Because you go around the world, you work with a lot of different organizations to create different spaces. How can they get in touch with you?

Oliver Heath:

Yeah, yeah. We often work remotely. I mean, as say I’m not traveling quite as much as you can look at our website, which is oliverheath.com. And on there, there are lots of resources that you can download about biophilic design in the workplace. And we’ve got a new online course called biophilic design in the home as well. So if you want to really bring those ideas into the place that’s probably the most important place in your life, your home, then we’ve got a course you can look at and download, and it’s kind of full of great ideas. That’s really inspiring. It’s not about telling you. It’s got to look like this. It’s about using your own sense of style and helping you understand the framework to apply those ideas.

Jenn DeWall:

Fantastic. And you also, I want you to just hold up that white paper again, because if they go to https://www.oliverheath.com/online-courses/, that not only can you have access to this class for how you can incorporate it in your home, but they also have additional white papers called Creating Positive Spaces where you could download that and then help to understand what you can do in your organization. So you’re working remotely with clients. I think that’s fantastic. I love, you know, the adaptability that we all have to have, but Albert, thank you for the work that you do, especially in changing the way that you know, the environment we spend, the majority of our lives at work. Why do we sometimes forget that the environment plays that part? I’m so glad that you’re putting a platform and a spotlight on that and ways that we can actually create a place that people want to work in. Thank you so much for taking your time to be with us today, Oliver!

Oliver Heath:

It’s been a total pleasure talking with you!

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Oliver Heath. If you want to connect with Oliver, head on over to OliverHeath.com. If you know someone that could benefit from hearing this podcast and understanding how they can change and transform their workplace, don’t forget to share this with them. And of course, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service, and side note. Here’s a promo. If you don’t already come, Crestcom offers complimentary monthly webinars. And we would love to see you there. You talk about a variety of different topics, all designed to help you become the best leader that you can be.

 

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Turning Your B.S.(Blind Sides) Into Leadership Success with Carla Romo

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Carla Romo. We talked about turning your B.S.— your blindsides— into leadership success. Let me tell you a little bit about Carla. Carla Romo is an author, speaker, certified life coach, and podcast host. And at age 24, she hit her rock bottom when she found herself in another toxic codependent relationship and in a cycle of burnout from her career in T.V., But this time, she got up and learned how to break free from codependency and get out of burnout—inspired by her self-growth journey. She took lemons and made lemonade, and today she helps people push through their B.S.- your Blind Sides- so they can thrive in all aspects of their life. Today, Carla leads worldwide workshops and talks to people from varying backgrounds for work ranges from small group settings to hundreds of attendees, either in person or virtual. She has spoken to or been featured in the Simon Business School, Milwaukee Bucks, Nissan Bravo, Verizon, Bumble, Lifetime, as well as other highly-rated iTunes podcasts. And today, Carla and I sat down to talk about how you can turn your B.S., your blind sides, into leadership success.

Meet Carla Romo—Author, Speaker and Life Coach

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am so excited to be sitting down with author speaker certified life coach and podcast host. Woo! Another one! Carla Romo. Carla, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

Carla Romo:

Thanks, Jenn! I’m super excited to be here!

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And we’re going to be talking about turning our B.S., the blind sides, into leadership success. How did you kind of navigate and find yourself really loving to help people through that? What does it even mean to have blind sides?

Carla Romo:

Well, I think really just my own blind sides I had to get through and the things that stopped me from thriving, and we’re talking intimate relationships, we’re talking career, personal life. I mean, blind sides can really go into any area, any aspect, but here’s the deal is that if you have blind sides, which basically are blocks that are stopping you from thriving in life, these are the things that are holding you back that you probably don’t even realize.

Carla Romo:

Or maybe you realize when you’re just sitting on it, these things that hold you back, rob you of your full potential. And so the idea is once you push through one block, maybe you think, gosh, my career’s just not where I want it to be. It’s just really frustrating for me. And you’re like, what do I do? Right. So you kind of sort out those blind sides in that area so that you can start to thrive in your career. But what you probably will realize, once you start doing this work, this inner work of blind sides is you’ll start to notice, Oh, this is also my personal life. My friendships, family, life relationships, all of these areas are affected by your blind sides. So I like to say it doesn’t discriminate— blind sides, you know— affect all of it. It’s just that maybe it’s coming out and bleeding through in one area, for example, like leadership.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, I think you talk about even how, first of all, I heard you say inner work, which is so important because I think that we just want the tool. We don’t want to do the inner work.

Carla Romo:

I just want the quick fix. Right?

What are Some Common Blind Sides?

Jenn DeWall:

I also like that you talk about that we can’t look at life in a vacuum again. I think that was one of those myths that we’ve been conditioned to believe that we can somehow shut off a portion of ourselves when we go into the office. And it’s just not; it’s not the case. So I think that’s great that you talk about that. What are some examples of maybe some blind sides that people might have?

Carla Romo:

Being stuck in your career to a place of, Okay, I know I want more for myself. I know I really want to go after X type of role, but I feel really stuck in this one role. Another blind side is confidence. Just not feeling good enough to take on a different role or to lead. Imposter syndrome- insert right there. So that can also look like a blind side. And then just the value of yourself. So if you were to think about the value of yourself right now and what you bring, you probably haven’t been really thinking about that. What you’re probably thinking about as we are our own worst critic is, Oh, I’m not good enough, or I’m not worthy enough. Or I don’t have enough skill set in this area, or people are going to judge me, or people aren’t going to like me. Those are some of the major blind sides that show up and manifest in surface-level stuff. So that could look like, Oh, like, I don’t know. I don’t. I’m not really going to take on this leadership role. I’m too busy. It’s coming up with excuses because what’s really underneath that excuse of I’m too busy is I’m not worthy enough. I don’t have that confidence to go out there and do it.

Jenn DeWall:

Do you ever notice that I’m curious like I see this sometimes with clients that they might look at themselves and they look at their hard skills, and they look at that as how they determine confidence? So if they’re like, well, of course, I’m confident, but yet they don’t actually realize that they actually don’t have competence. They might have it on the specific hard skill, but they don’t have it internally. And I’m curious what, like how do you help people bring awareness to those blind sides? Because I think sometimes, I love it. Yeah. It’s blind. We don’t necessarily draw attention to it or realize the impact that it’s having.

Carla Romo:

Absolutely. So when people are looking at themselves and like, well, I’m confident I feel worthy enough. Okay. That’s fine. There’s a difference between where your emotional level is at and your logical level. Is that okay? So logic and emotion don’t always meet up. And so when you’re at a place of your right brain is the feeling side of things. Your left brain is logical. It wants to come to conclusions. So you might not feel okay, like you are good enough, but logically, look, that I’m good enough. I’m confident I did this before in the past. So it’s fine. Whatever. So you’ve got to meet yourself where you’re at that moment. So you just have to start peeling back the layers of the onion, is the way I like to put it. What is stopping you? So really ask yourself, what’s stopping me from my full potential at this moment?

What is the thought behind it? And then what is the feeling that’s driving it. And if it’s the feeling of sadness or frustration or loneliness or anger, that is, what’s pulling you back, and the thing is you can’t compartmentalize your feelings. So maybe you’re like, I’m just going to power through it. Right? And look, we can all power through things and get through it, and you know, grit. Right? But what is so important here is to give yourself time to process your feelings, which does not take very long, but we like to just bypass our feelings and go to our left brain of logic. So when you can connect with how you’re feeling about something, then you can start to connect to where this left-brain logic is coming from. So maybe for you to bypass is like, I’m not feeling confident. I don’t feel very good. I feel lonely. I feel sad about it, but I know I’m confident. So whatever. Instead of dealing with it, it just kind of masks it.

What Happens When We Ignore Our Blind Sides?

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, Absolutely. And what are, you know, I, I want to, let’s give the call to action, right? To the people that might be struggling with really wanting to go deep, because again, it’s feelings. Yeah. What’s the consequence of not addressing these blind sides? Like what is the consequence to us, our success, and our ability to lead?

Carla Romo:

You’re holding yourself back 110%. And in order to lead, I truly believe that you’ve got to do your inner work. You’ve got to do that confidence-building that blindside building, because if you do not do that, how are you expecting to lead others through their blind sides, through what they’re going through and the more awareness and emotional intelligence that you can grow- because the beautiful thing is you can always grow your emotional intelligence, is to be able to do that work for yourself. And so doing that makes you a thriving leader would make you somebody who can lead- person, place, thing- whatever it is that you want to lead in life. And so doing that work is what gives you that, but not doing that work is actually what holds you back as being a true leader.

Jenn DeWall:

I think it probably plays into a lot of the challenges we see, or we’ve been really seeing more pronounced for the pandemic like burnout.

Carla Romo:

Absolutely.

Jenn DeWall:

It is about being able to do that. And they think, you know, you can give yourself the band-aid or pretend does it have an impact, or you can do the work and you can actually help establish better mental health, a better sense of confidence. You’re going to make better decisions. I mean, I love the topic that you talk about, Carla, because I think so many people, especially leaders, really struggle in silence. They don’t actually admit the way that this can make their role more challenging than they might feel like. Oh gosh, like what if my team doesn’t like me? What if I make the wrong decision? And that, it sounds like what you offer with overcoming our blind sides is just a way for us to have more peace and less stress and less burnout. Does that sound about right? Like what benefits do you see leaders have or individuals have when they actually do the work on their blind sides?

Carla Romo:

Absolutely. And I’ve coached a lot of executives at fortune 500 companies, startups, things like that. And the number one thing that I see with them is what was driving them to be successful. A lot of times is ego, and I’m not talking ego in the sense of I’m so great. I’m amazing. I’m actually talking to the other side of ego. I am so insignificant that I am significant and that a lot of times is what propels people. Okay. I got to prove myself. I got to get out there. I got to get out there. But when you can flip the script and really look at yourself here of, you know, what is it that’s driving me? What is it that’s propelling me forward? How is it holding me back? What is it? What is it that’s stopping me from thriving in leadership? So when I do this work with clients, a lot of times, they’re able to turn what’s driving them into their full purpose and meaning in life. And so they’re not driven by ego anymore. Instead, they’re actually driven because they want to contribute to society. They want to contribute as a leader to the workplace and their businesses and their careers. And that’s what propels them forward.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. They’re driven by much more of that big picture, impact, and perspective.

Carla Romo:

And it’s that meaning and purpose again, you know, like we all have meaning, we all have purpose, but when we feel disconnected to it, it’s really actually the surface level indication of the blind side of being disconnected to ourselves.

How Do We Start Turning Blind Sides into Leadership Success?

Jenn DeWall:

So how do we, Like, I know that this, again, it can be difficult to initially get in generate the awareness, but where do you start with your clients on this? How do you start? I guess what’s the path to overcoming your blind sides or what’s the process that you have to work through to actually turn that into a leadership success?

Carla Romo:

So, number one is what’s your, what stopped you? Like what’s your obstacle. Okay. So what are you unhappy with? Like, what is it that you feel not satisfied with? And maybe you’re like, well, I’m satisfied with everything in life. I have a good salary. I’ve got a great position at this company. Okay. Emotionally, internally, if you can’t think about things like that, right? Like sometimes, my clients come to me, like I’m just not satisfied with where I’m at and my position at work or whatever it might be. But if you’re like, I feel good about that. Like I have this, right? Like it shows where I’m at. Really? What is underneath that? Are you emotionally connected? Do you feel you have meaning? Do you feel you have a purpose? And it’s actually starting with that little piece, but before we even dive into that, it’s the awareness piece.

You have to have the awareness to make any change in your life. So if you could start to become aware of like, you know, maybe take a little journal around with you or put it in your phone, start taking notes of things that maybe you don’t feel as connected to, or maybe you feel that you want to work toward, that you feel like is impossible. So really start to dream, get big, get out there. And that can start to feel uncomfortable because these blind sides are holding you back from really getting into your full potential. So once you have this awareness- taking notes, maybe it’s even just your burnout. You feel exhausted. It’s like I had a purpose once here, but now I don’t even know what I’m doing on the zoom call and this meeting with everybody. So really, just having that level of awareness, writing it down, and being honest with yourself immediately starts to pull out and call out these blind sides in your life.

Jenn DeWall:

So I love that thinking about where do you want to go? And what’s the first, I don’t know, maybe for lack of a better description, what’s the first “no” that your mind thinks of? Nope. You can’t do that because of this or no. You’re too old. Or no, you’re this like, what’s, what are your no’s that come up as you think about that? I kind of like that perspective. Because then it’s like, just think about this outside of yourself. Like, they’re just absolute thoughts. Like they come up, we all have them again. Carla and I both have them.

Carla Romo:

I have them. And that’s how I’ve got it. That’s how I created the blind siding work because, because of my own blind sides.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So we start, we get the awareness. We, I love the idea of like, even just pulling around your phone and just start to take a mental note, then what do we do? Okay. We have the awareness I’ve identified. Let’s say maybe it’s just feeling. I guess what I see, you know, in the work with Crestcom that we do, sometimes leaders just feeling like I wasn’t prepared to be a leader. And so then anything that they do, they might start to say, Oh gosh, can I, am I even up for the task? Do I have what it takes? So if that’s what we’re noticing that limiting belief of just feeling like we don’t have the experience, then what?

Brainstorm Without Having to Decide Right Away

Carla Romo:

Absolutely. And the next step would be to start getting real with yourself. What do you want for yourself? And I like to go into brainstorm mode of like, just throw out everything, every single option that you have, that you could see for your future, your potential, maybe it’s a leadership track, every option with that. I mean, whatever it might be for yourself and just throw out the options, even the options you don’t want. Okay. So just make a list, just start throwing out ideas of what you want, the life that you want to create for yourself. What would be cool, what wouldn’t and then start to process by elimination. So you go through this list and you say, okay, here’s something, you know, I really like this aspect of the option or of my future, but I really don’t like this, and I’m not going to do that, that part.

So cross it off. And then when you get down to maybe two or three, I want you to, just to like to sit on them. So I never have clients just make a quick decision impulse and run with it. Right. And so what I like to do is have people sit with it, try it out for the week. You know, let yourself think about this and put like that hat on of what you envision your future to be like, what this option could be for you. And so put that hat on for the week, go ahead and live it out and think about that and then try on the other hat, go for it. Maybe it’s two days, three days you think about, okay, if my future looked like this, and then if you know, like I said, two to three, so maybe have a third one, put that hat on, try it out.

Your gut will guide you and will tell you. Whichever one you are the most excited about is the one that leads you. And so I think in order to understand what leads yourself will help you lead others because you’re connected with purpose. You’re connected with meaning, and you’re connected with what, with what drives you forward in leadership. And so I think at that moment, then that’s your gut saying, go for it. Now, this is also where blind sides come up and want to stop you because they’re freaking out on you. And they’re like, what are you doing? Like no way, like, are you kidding? Like my salary wouldn’t look the same or like, there’s no way I could pivot in this direction. Those are blind sides. That is not reality. The reality is if you have your basic needs met, then pushing past these blind sides is a mindset. So that’s where the work comes in around navigating some of these blind sides. But you now have an awareness of what you want to go after. So it’s now creating a commitment to yourself to building out these, this option or choice or goal for your life or future, and wearing that hat moving forward.

Jenn DeWall:

I feel like the expression that I’m thinking in my head is like, it’s only natural, of course, that you would have any level of fear that comes up. It’s okay.

Carla Romo:

We’re human. Yes. Unless I like to say, unless you’re a psychopath who cannot feel anything, even sociopaths can feel fear. So just want to put that out there that, you know, it’s totally normal, and the fear is a blind side, and that is, you know, there are little blind sides in different steps of what you’re overcoming. But having this awareness and willing to ground yourself in that option that leads you forward, that moves you forward, is amazing because now you have that awareness, and you, once you have the awareness, you can’t really go back.

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. So I’m going to mirror it back. Tell me if I got the process. Right. So initial piece is the awareness. Like what, like where do I want to go? And what potentially is holding me back? What would my life look like? Or my leadership style looks like it would be step two. And then I like giving yourself permission to just try, don’t make a decision, don’t run 110 miles per hour in that direction. Just maybe give short, incremental bites to try that out, see what you like, what you don’t like, what comes up for you, and then what?

You Have to See More Than Just Your End Goal

Carla Romo:

And then, and then once you try that, it’s then, okay, how do we move forward? How do we put together this plan? What are the next steps? Now I am not somebody who goes all out. Like we need to just get that goal and go after it. That’s actually like really how you don’t achieve goals is just focusing on the end goal. So that can actually dwindle your future and put a damper on it if you’re only focused on the end goal. So what I like to do is—

Jenn DeWall:

Tell me why! Because that’s a counterpoint, right? Some People might say, what do you mean? I go for the end goal? Where am I getting it wrong?

Carla Romo:

They’re like, what are you talking about? It is absolutely impossible. Unless your end goal is to go to the grocery store that day, get food, and come home. It is absolutely impossible to achieve your end goal in one day. And when you have that mindset, and you have the first moment of blindside, discouragement, or fear come up, that can set you back big time because the end goal all of a sudden feels impossible and so far away because it is impossible. You can’t achieve it just in one day or just in one moment. So the idea is to break down the goal into bits and pieces so that when you get the end goal, it’s not completing you. It’s about that. It’s as cliche as it sounds. It’s all about embracing the journey to that end goal, that you will feel happy. You will feel happy, and you’ll feel purpose. I mean, that’s the whole goal with this.

And so, you know, you, you take this end goal, and you chop it up in bits and pieces. So kind of like, I don’t I’ll picture, I like to always just like cakes and like funfetti cakes are totally my favorite here with buttercream frosting, domino confectionery, just sign up. Okay. So take this cake. And what you’re going to do is you’re just going to take apart every single piece of it until it is solid form flour, solid form, egg, you know, butter, sugar, whatever. Okay. Sprinkles. Cause it’s, you know, funfetti. So anyway, but you take all these bite-sized pieces, and you take apart the cake, and then you think to yourself, what do I need to focus on to put this cake together? So, okay. Do I need to make the icing yet? No, I really don’t need to focus on that, but I probably should start mixing the dry materials together. So that’s how you look at your plan. What do I need to do? What is the next step into making this awesome, delicious cake that I’m really excited to eat? So that’s really what you need to start focusing on is breaking down this goal into bite-sized pieces so that it is achievable. And also, look at it as one day at a time. I’m very big on that because that is actually what you can control is in one day. And that’s it.

Jenn DeWall:

It’s, again, only natural that we all want instant gratification. We all want it right away like that. Absolutely. Anyone that wouldn’t rather have their pain points solved or reach their ideal destination. Of course, we wanted that yesterday. That’s not, we know that, but yet I think we just forget that we forget that we have to put in the work that there are going to be perceived failures or missteps and even wins that aren’t necessarily going to pull us all the way, all the way to the finish line. And I think that’s great too, I guess, one of the things, cause sometimes it is easy for people when they look at their goal, they just look at this as, wow, this is such an overwhelming, I don’t know that path that I’m going to have to take to get there. And that can just be discouraging by the amount of work. And so I love just looking at it as what are all of the little micro components that are going to meet that goal. I think that’s such beautiful. I don’t know. It’s just helpful. Right? Because then we don’t absolutely think at once, which I know that I’m always overwhelmed by that. And that’s what my procrastination kicks in. Like why do anything if it means that it’s too overwhelming? Then I’m over here in my happy place. Like how could you die? So you have your goals, you have your pieces. I mean, what do you do when someone maybe feels like they hit a wall? Like how do you help them course-correct? Because I think that even though we understand that it happens, it’s still really very real that we might start to get discouraged. Is there any advice that you use with your clients when we feel like we have the ingredients put together, but then we still feel like we’ve maybe made a misstep or a perceived failure? How do you help them course-correct? To say it’s okay.

Mistakes Are Part of the Process

Carla Romo:

So it is super important to understand that missteps and blocks are part of the process. So set your expectations to bringing in and inviting these. It’s when we resist them that’s when it becomes problematic. Right. And those are our blind sides. Once again, popping up and manifesting in different ways in the process. But it’s really recognizing and saying, okay, so what is the block? What can I learn from this? And really defining what your success and your failure definitions are. Because you might feel, Oh, I failed. This is it. You know that this is the end all be all. I can’t. I can’t do this anymore. It’s over. And when you hit a block like that, it’s getting real and leveling with yourself. Okay. So this is my definition of failure. And the way that I actually like to look at failure is it’s not failure.

Carla Romo:

It’s just gathering information readjusting, and moving forward. So if you feel like you’ve hit your failure or your block, or you just feel like you’re procrastinating, this is actually an amazing point to be in. And it should be embraced a lot more instead of the idea of like, how do we avoid these? How do we like to dodge them? Because when you welcome them in, you are open to learning and gaining new information about yourself or the process that you’re in, in order to propel yourself forward. So it’s kind of like, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen those traveling rings that people go on and maybe if you’ve ever been in L.A., you’ve seen them on Venice beach, then people swing. So it’s like these rings on this like a jungle gym, adult jungle, gym, maybe kid jungle gym too. But you have to swing backward in order to swing forward.

Carla Romo:

Right. And it’s kind of like a Slingshot as well. If you’re like, what is she talking about? I don’t know what jungle gym rings. She’s saying think about it like a Slingshot. You have to pull it back in order to propel it forward. But once you pull it back and you release it, it just flies. Right? So think about that. When you get stuck, this is just your pulling back moment to make you Pat a pole further in the process. And so it’s embracing it, it’s welcoming it, and it’s allowing yourself to move through it. That is what’s important here.

Jenn DeWall:

I love it. You know, I think it’s important. The definitions of success, that one that has been a huge thing for me because I, you know, when I reflect on that, like my old definition of success was always like, everything needs to be done. Perfect. And everyone needs to be satisfied. Otherwise, it was a failure like that—my subconscious thing. And I, you know, until I really dug into it talking about awareness, I didn’t understand why I was so miserable. Even if you’ll where I would say from someone else’s perspective, they would say, Jenn, you did a great job. Or this was great. And in my head, I’d be like, no, I didn’t. And that’s, I think that’s such an important piece is that we don’t realize that we have these constructs of what success looks like, what that means, and that we can change it. I don’t. It doesn’t serve me to be a perfectionist because then I never have wins!

Carla Romo:

Absolutely. And a lot of leaders are perfectionists, right? I mean, that’s kind of the like thing. A lot of times, we need to get it right. And we need to move forward, and it all has to line up. And you know, that is a strength to an extent, but perfectionism can also kind of catch you up. Like you were just saying.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh. So after, like, when you actually set this up, what would be your final thing? So, okay. You identify what it is, you know, where you need to go, you understand kind of those definitions of success. You break your goals into small parts, then what do you do?

Make Adjustments as You Go

Carla Romo:

Yeah. You just keep moving forward on your plan, and you readjust as according. So if you are okay, so you put, you understand your success, you understand your failure, then it’s sometimes two steps forward. One step back, two steps forward, one step back until you get to that goal. And I’m going to be real. It’s not really sexy, right. This idea of like having this, Oh, I finally made it to here, or I’m doing this now. Like yeah. Like, you know, I think actually I’m just gonna throw this out here too. Social media has given so many people unrealistic expectations. You see a title change on LinkedIn, and you’re like, Whoa, like, Oh my gosh, but you don’t see the work. You don’t see the ups. You don’t see the downs. You don’t see the Slingshot moments, right. That propelled these people forward. So I think a lot of this, too, is setting your expectations to what is a reality for yourself.

And at this moment, it’s like I said, continuing to push forward, readjusting as need be, but continuing and continuing and continuing. And when you get lost in that moment where you’re like, is it ever going to be over? Am I ever going to get there? Remind yourself back to what I work with my clients on in the very beginning. What is your purpose? And what is your meaning for that? And what got you excited? What drove you when you created this option or this goal for yourself to get to where you are at this moment? And so that’s really, I truly believe what it takes and eventually look, the goal will be done. I mean, you’ll achieve it. Let’s get real. You’re a leader. You’re not just here to like, hang out and do nothing. You’re the type of person that likes to see things through. So really push yourself to see this through.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I love your expression of Slingshot moments because I feel like all of us probably could reflect and go back to periods of our life, where the world was. You know, we felt like we had just maybe failed, made an epic misstep. The world is ending, insert, whatever failure feels like for them. But really, that was just a slingshot moment because they likely have overcome it and then created something greater than what they ever thought. Like, I, I think about even my trajectory in corporate America because I, you know, it just, it wasn’t the greatest fit for me in what I was doing. And I was super driven. I wanted to be successful. I wanted to make an impact, and I was doing it in the business world, but in some ways, I wasn’t, and that looked like, Oh my gosh.

Because I attached so much of my worth to our profession, to my professional success that initially at the moment, it was really hard to see that as a Slingshot moment. But now, I wouldn’t be where I was today. If I didn’t go through that adversity, I might still be working in a job that I don’t love just because, you know, it was like, Oh, well, this works out fine enough. Like I might be a miserable kind of outside of work, but it’s a paycheck, and that’s a really good one. But no, these are just your moments where you have the opportunity to fail forward.

Carla Romo:

Absolutely. I love that failing forward. Yeah, totally.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. But that’s, it doesn’t mean it’s okay to be embarrassed. I guess if I’m probably vulnerable. I know when I failed, it felt really public to me because I attached a lot again, of my meaning to my professional success that I was, you know, I felt shame for not getting that next promotion or not getting to the next thing. And it’s not that, and you hit the nail on the head. We need to stop comparing. We need to stop comparing to where someone else is and just pay attention to those as Slingshot moments. Like, what is this, what am I being called to do differently? Or where is my passion really taking me that I might be resisting? Gosh, Carla, I love this.

Carla Romo:

I’m glad. I’m glad.

Jenn DeWall:

Because I just, I feel like, I guess what would you say to the person that maybe feels embarrassed? Cause I, I absolutely felt shame around not getting things right the first time not getting to that perfect level. And how do you work with people on, you know, kind of overcoming their own, I guess, feelings around their perceived failures? Do you have any special recommendations for that?

Feel Your Feelings

Carla Romo:

Absolutely, so number one is to feel your feelings. That’s how they pass and also to recognize the humanity that you can feel because when you feel, you’re able to move through, right? And when you try to compartmentalize your feelings, you actually can’t. You shut yourself off from happiness. You shut yourself off from joy when you’re trying to shut yourself off from shame or embarrassment. So allow those to come in. Because like I said with the Slingshot moment is that that might feel like it’s pulling you back, but really it’s gaining momentum to push you forward. So I even can say for myself, I mean, I have had tons of Slingshot moments in life. And even when I decided to leave my world and television and entertainment in Los Angeles and start my business, one of my biggest fears was if I fail, everybody will know I left this career that was stable, and I was growing in, and you know, whatever for something that just, wow. Yeah, she couldn’t even make it right. But that’s my own internal dialogue. That was a reflection of the work I needed to do even in that step in life.

Those were my blind sides coming out. Those were those, you know, peeling back the layers of the onion. And what does that attach to you? Okay. That thought is attached to the ego. It’s attached to my self-worth. And then once I was actually able to push through that and say, you know what, here’s my goal. I’m breaking it down. I’m trusting the process. Everything settled out for me. So really, when you’re going through that moment, allow yourself to be human, allow yourself to feel through those emotions. And then also give yourself a chance to be able to say, okay, what are other options here? What else? Where else can I go? Because it can get to that tunnel vision like you were saying, kind of that like you’re stuck there, that’s it that black and white thinking, but life is not in black and white. Right? So we see color. And so, right there, what are the colors in your life? Where can you pivot? Where can you move? And if you are a leader, you have these skills already within.

Jenn DeWall:

Carla, what would be your closing advice for anyone that’s trying to push past their blind sides? I love that you’ve given them, you know, the perspective of like really, what are you not going after in life right now? Because it’s likely something that you can absolutely change just by creating awareness. What would be your final advice to someone that might be struggling with this?

Carla Romo:

I want to know what drives you in life. And maybe this is your imagination, right? Like you’re like, well, I’m not in this current role. So I, you know, that doesn’t drive me, but what is it that drives you? What is it that gets you excited? Okay. It could be a genre thing, right? Like I have a client who was working in finance and is switching over now to working in the dark world of some aspect because that’s where she finds meaning. That’s where she finds purpose. And so it’s asking yourself right now, what is it that drives you? What gives you purpose? What gives you meaning whatever that resistance is right there that you’re feeling. When all of a sudden you have the thought, you get excited and then you think, Oh, I don’t know. That’s your blind side.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I love that. I, there was one coach that I worked with. I was telling you about her. She always gave the advice, make your “why” bigger than your “but.”

Carla Romo:

Woo. I love it. Yes.

Jenn DeWall:

I understand like your why then every, but that you have, you’re like, but, but this is what we need to do this. I thought that was such fun- It was a funny way to say that.

Carla Romo:

That is fun! I like that. Yeah.

How to Get in Touch with Carla

Jenn DeWall:

How can people get in touch with you? And like, we didn’t get to go in like, tell me how can people get in touch with you? How can they work with you?

Carla Romo:

Absolutely. So if you are looking for one-on-one coaching, you can go to my website, CarlaRomo.com. If you want some, just feel good inspiration. You can check me out on Instagram @IamCarlaRomo.

Jenn DeWall:

Awesome. Carla, thank you so much for our tips on how we can overcome blind sides, so We can create our leadership success. It was great to have you on the podcast today.

Carla Romo:

Thank you so much, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Carla Romo. If you want to connect with Carla, you can go to CarlaRomo.com, or  https://www.instagram.com/iamcarlaromo/. You can find her there for speaking for coaching, and you can also find her book. And of course, if you know someone that might be struggling with overcoming their own blind sides, share this episode with them. This is how we can all get our successes by sharing valuable tools and experiences to help each other thrive. And if you enjoyed this episode personally, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast. Streaming service stay connected with us at Crestcom.com. You can find on our events schedule that we do monthly webinars on a variety of different leadership topics. And you can also stay current on our newest podcasts! Until next time.

 

The post Turning Your B.S. (Blind Sides) Into Leadership Success with Carla Romo appeared first on Crestcom International.

Full Transcript Below: 

Jenn DeWall:

Hi Everyone! It is Jenn DeWall with The Leadership Habit podcast for Crestcom. On today’s show, I sat down with Heather Younger. For those that may not know Heather Younger, she recently spoke at Crestcom Leadership Summit. We are so happy to have her, but let me tell you a little more about her. Heather Younger is a best-selling author, international speaker, consultant, adjunct organizational leadership professor, and facilitator who has earned her reputation as an employee whisperer. Her experiences as an entrepreneur, manager, attorney, writer, coach, listener, speaker, collaborator, and mother all lend themselves to a laser-focused clarity into what makes employees, organizations, and companies large and small tick. As the champion for positive change in workplaces communities and the world, Heather founded employee fanatics, a leading employee engagement, and leadership development consulting and training firm. She wants to inspire others by teaching the kind of caring leadership that drives real results.

Heather hosts the weekly podcast, Leadership With Heart, which uncovers what drives leaders from all over the world and all walks of life to be more emotionally intelligent leaders. Her book, The Seven Intuitive Laws of Employee Loyalty, hit the Forbes Must-Read List and is a go-to source for HR professionals and organizational leaders seeking insight into their organization’s dynamics. Her latest book, The Art of Caring Leadership, was picked up by Berrett-Koehler Publishers and was released in April 2021. Today, Heather and I sat down to talk about her newest book, The Art of Caring Leadership: How Leading with Heart Uplifts Teams and Organizations. Enjoy.

Welcome Back Heather R. Younger, Author of The Art of Caring Leadership

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for tuning into this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit. This is Jenn DeWall. And today, I am sitting down with author— also described as the employee whisper— consultant and speaker, Heather Younger. And we are here. You may recognize that voice. We’ve talked with her before! But now we’re here. And she is here with us to talk about her newest book, The Art of Caring Leadership. Heather, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Heather R. Younger:

Thanks for having me. I am so excited to be here with you.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Heather, we have to dive right into it. This is a new book. What inspired you to write The Art of Caring Leadership?

Heather R. Younger:

You know, to be honest, it was because there’s so much pain in the world, so much pain from employees caused by their leaders. They would just, you know, employees would come to me over the years, or I’d be reading all these survey comments. And I would see that how, how much basically the leaders would just miss the mark as it related to what their people needed. They had in my mind no clue what they needed to do to keep them happy, to keep them wanting to be on the team, willing to go over and above being innovative, creative. They just were missing it. So I saw all that over the years and read it and witnessed it, listening sessions and such. And someone’s got to do something about this. Someone’s gotta be the voice. Someone’s got to show some alignment. So I, what I did is I took all these years I culminated in listening to all the employees and stuff. And then I took that, and I also talked to a lot of leaders on my podcast, Leadership at Heart. And when I was talking to them, I started to synthesize what it was that they did. That was like, Ooh, it was like the aha moments. I’d be like, Oh, that’s it right there. That’s it. That’s it. That’s brilliant. And after I did that, like 170 times, I said, there are nine behaviors that align with what employees want and what these particular leaders were doing. And I highlighted them in this book.

Who Should Read The Art of Caring Leadership?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh gosh, I’m so excited to dive into these. And for those that might be listening, Heather just joined Crestcom’s Leadership Summit, where she gave us a sneak peek into this book. But out of curiosity, who— when you wrote this— who is that end reader that you’re hoping to make an impact with?

Heather R. Younger:

Well, I say in the book, you know, it’s for leaders, it’s for those who see themselves as leaders is for those in HR, not in HR, but in the end, I’d love to get into the hands of the jerks. You heard me say that that’s like a good quote. I want to get this book in the hands of the jerks. It’s the ones who just don’t show care. They either don’t get it. They don’t care, but they get it. They’re not willing to do anything. And I would like for them to be like, get a clue, get a clue. I want you to be able to change the lives of the employees that are looking to you for guidance, that are relying on your leadership. And so this book is, that’s what I would like. I’d like it to get into the hands of those people who just don’t get it. And they don’t. They’re just not expressing care.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I think there are a lot of people listening that are also probably echoing that, yes, please get it to this person because you know what? I don’t love working with them. And they could definitely benefit from this. How does changing the way that we show up benefit an organization? Because I think, again, people look at some of this, we’re talking about caring leadership. Like you get the people that think that that’s too “woo- woo.” I guess, you know, I love it, but I know that there are the resistors that are like, what do you mean? People should be happy. They have a job. You know, or what type of, I guess, pushback did you anticipate? Or what have you seen in terms of maybe people’s reluctance to embrace caring leadership?

Heather R. Younger:

Well, then I’m going to answer in two ways. One is if you don’t show care, you don’t get any of the hard-line results that you want. And, and, and if you think for yourself, those listening to a time when you worked at a place, and you were so jazzed and so excited to get to work, to do, to do the work, you felt like the work was meaningful. You felt like you were fulfilled. I want you to think back on what that manager, that supervisor was for you, how, how did they help you during that journey? Were they the jerks I’m talking about? Or, were they the people that expressed the care, the behaviors we’re going to talk about this. The one thing I want to put that out there for you to be thinking about as we talk, but secondarily in the book, I highlight the ROI on caring leadership.

I highlight stories like Gary Ridge, the CEO, WD 40 company, who moved the company from multiple hundreds of millions of dollars company to a market cap of 2.2 billion by putting his people first. I highlight people like Ron Alvesteffer, president and CEO of Service Express, the same exact thing where he was so focused on the process. You’d meet people, talk about projects, talking about how we’re going to move forward sales. And he did that and did that. And one day, he realized this is getting me nowhere. So we started to meet people where they’re at. He sat with them, had deeper conversations with them, and start to realize that, wait a second, putting people first is my strategy and move the company from a double-digit million dollar company to a triple-digit, $200- $300 million company by really focusing on putting the people first. And these are just a couple of examples of how really the ROI of caring leadership really does pay off.

The ROI of Caring Leadership

Jenn DeWall:

Where do people get it wrong? I know you just hit one, you know, the example of maybe putting process over people, but what are some examples of where people get maybe caring leadership wrong or just leadership in general that could be working counter to the ROI that you want to achieve?

Heather R. Younger:

Yeah, I think, I mean, in order to be a caring leader, there’s like a three prerequisites one. You have to have an awareness that there’s a, there’s a gap you’re creating for your people. The second is you have to have a desire to want to change it. And then the third is really having this momentum, this, this desire, this energy to keep, like stamina to keep up with the change that you’re looking for. So I think the biggest thing is that where people go wrong is they don’t have an awareness, or they have an awareness, and they have no desire to change it. And then the third one is again, and they have no stamina. They’re like, I see it. I think we probably need to do something about it, but can we do that in like six months? And so they’re not looking at, this is a long term play that’s in place that you have that this is something that when you’re looking at caring leadership, it’s about expressing caring, concern, and kindness for those who lead in consistent ways daily. And so daily means for the rep forever. Right? And that’s an exhausting concept for most. I know, but if anything that’s worth having is worth fighting for, and if you want to have the bigger market cap, you want to have more customer satisfaction. You want to have, you know, fewer losses when it comes to safety. Right? All of those things, if you express care more often, more consistently, you’re going to get the things that you’re looking for.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh gosh. Could you please repeat that definition of caring leadership again? So you had said consistent, you know, we’ve got to show up consistently. It’s gotta be daily. That’s what I heard. What else? Cause I want to really drive home on that. That’s such a good

Heather R. Younger:

So caring leadership is taking daily actions to show concern and kindness for those you lead. That’s the definition of caring leadership. And in order to be known as a caring leader, even start that journey, you have to have an awareness that you’re creating a gap for those that look to you for guidance. You have to have a desire to do something about it. And then you have to have a kind of stamina or the wherewithal to keep it going because it doesn’t ever end. Those would be the three things I would say that are really important.

Caring Leadership Requires Self-Awareness

Jenn DeWall:

What are some of the gaps that we might create? Because I’m excited to dive into the content. I’m curious, like, what are some of the gaps that we create as a leader? And it’s likely I know what you’re saying. It’s likely subconscious. We just aren’t aware- it’s what you said. Self-Awareness what are some of those gaps that you can create as a leader?

Heather R. Younger:

Well, when we look at kind of the first requirement of caring leadership, it’s this idea of self-leadership, which I did talk about at the summit. We didn’t obviously go very, very deep on it. But this idea of self-leadership is if we, if we have, if you think about this, if we have a cup as a teacup and you have lots of tea on it, tea in it, and it’s overflowing onto the saucer, and you’re like, you have so much in it. You’ve put a lot into yourself. You’ve owned your own growth. You’re authentic, and you’re congruent. You’ve exercised self-care. You’ve done all these things that are for yourself. Now you can give from the saucer the overflow from the cup. If your cup is empty, you can’t give much from it. You can’t lead well if you aren’t leading yourself first.

So that is one of the gaps that’s left just first because they haven’t actually begun to meet their own needs. They aren’t aware of where they’re at, where the gaps are for themselves. And so then they can’t give, then we start to look into the other behaviors. We’re looking at things like creating safe spaces for team members. We, this is kind of a buzzword we’ve heard, particularly after the George Floyd stuff and everything related to race relations, mostly in the US, so this idea of safe spaces, it’s like, well, do people feel comfortable speaking up? Do they feel like they can step outside themselves and say things that they maybe ordinarily wouldn’t feel comfortable doing? Because their leaders have helped them to feel comfortable. And by the way, safe spaces aren’t created, just because we say viola! We’re going to create a round table event. And we want you all to come and tell the truth. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen because you didn’t create the trust first. You didn’t create a sense of respect first. So those are some of the foundations of the safe spaces.

Then we think of this idea of whole-person leadership. Well, when you think about zoom and deans, we’ve been seeing a lot more of people lately, right? We see their kids running behind them. We see people aren’t running around half-dressed. We might hear people yelling at each other. We may see an elderly person in the background. There’s so much that’s going on in the homes that you never saw before, but now you see it. Don’t forget what you saw. Don’t forget what you found out. Use that even when you get back to face-to-face or in a hybrid situation because you have to continue to dig deep to understand who your team members are. So you can lead them fully. You get more out of them as a result.

Another thing we talk about is this idea of listening. Creating a culture of listening and the listening stuff is so darn critical. It’s almost like the foundation of all of it because self-leadership is about listening to ourselves, right? It’s understanding who we are, listening, being aware, hypersensitive to what we’re feeling and how we’re showing up in the world. So this concept of creating and listening culture is kind of an in and out exercise. And it really is this idea of taking in what we hear and all the mediums. I mean, taking it all in, reflecting on it in a really kind of pensive way in a way that makes you, you’re not just knee-jerk with any reactions you’re thinking through, how does this work with strategy? How does this relate to this person and this department? Really reflecting that way.

And then from there, it’s acting upon what we can, if we can act upon it, making sure we’re taking strategic action based upon what we hear, whether we hear it in a one-on-one meeting, whether we hear it in team meetings, whether the organizational leaders here at the above organization, we’re going to be strategic about that action. And then we’re going to go back around and flip back around, and we’re going to connect the dots. We’re going to say, okay, so I heard you. Here’s what I think I heard you say, I acted upon what it is. You said, and guess what? We did this thing. And it was because of what you said, boom, power, like a huge amount of power, because now they’re like, Oh my gosh, my voice, when I open my mouth, it’s safe to do so you listened to me, you reflect, you act upon it. And now you’re telling me you did these things because I said it, Holy smokes. There’s power in that. So those are some of the behaviors that caring leaders do. And when they don’t do it, they leave people feeling devalued. They leave people wanting to leave. So turnover becomes a huge issue.

Listening To Employees Takes More Than an Annual Survey

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And you said so many valuable pieces. I mean, I think one for me, and maybe this is kind of. If I’m going back to my 20-year-old self, this might be a little bit of how jaded I was- I really had a strong dislike for company surveys primarily because why do them? They don’t do anything! And so then it becomes this drain on your time. And it also creates this sense of, I mean, I just didn’t trust it. I’m like, why do they keep trying to pretend that they’re doing this? Even though they would never do it. And I think, you know, if I was, I had a client that was talking about even, they don’t even share openly on the surveys because they’re, they’re afraid of anonymity and whether or not like whether that’s going to come back to them. So I think there are so many reasons why employees are just kind of turned off. And you, you hit up the important thing. You’ve got to close the loop. You have to just say we heard you. Not thanks so much; we’re happy we surveyed you. We won’t have to follow up on that.

Heather R. Younger:

And then you’ll never hear anything back. Thank you for your service. And I hate that. That is the reason why employee phonetics does this— we help organizations create cultures of listening because I can’t stand this thing where it stops like that. They’ll listen, and they’ll, they may reflect even as a group at a table. And then they’re like, now what do we do? And then they may even act on a few things, but then they never tell people what they did, even if they just never, they never tell that you missed the opportunity when you don’t tell those you need that their voices are so important to you. That our voices are what make us us. So if we, if we, if our voices aren’t important to those who we look to for guidance who are supposed to lead us, what does it say about us? We feel rejected, right? So it’s so critical, really critical piece.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, let’s, let’s dive into the book a little bit. I know there are multiple different principles, and we’ve touched on a few of them. What are the ones that you would want to share with our audience? We’re not going to give it all away, but where do you start to practice The Art of Caring Leadership?

Caring Leadership Requires Consistency

Heather R. Younger:

Well, I mean, I, I did give. Obviously, I did give a few of those just now. I would say one of the ones I didn’t really touch on and this idea of making them feel important. And there are a lot of different sub-components that the good thing in the book is that there, there are not only just like these high level strategic or like philosophical things I talk about, but I drill it down into kind of sub practices or behaviors. I also back it up with stories and data. So you have all of it for those who are learner learners and learn in different ways. This makes them feel important. One of the things that I talk about in there is spending time with them, spending time with them in very specific ways. So in that connect, connecting with them one-on-one or in team meetings, making a regular cadence of doing that.

This is not rocket science. This is not anything you’ve not heard before, but guess what? Many leaders don’t do it consistently. And so what happens is when you don’t do it that way, what you tell your people is that you aren’t all that important to me. You aren’t all that valued in the work that you do because you aren’t taking the time to spend that time. So there’s a spontaneous time where you’re just available for them when they need you. There’s that setup time when you have that one-on-one or team meeting. And there’s also this idea of like getting in the trenches with them, like standing next to them and the work that needs to get done, don’t be so up here in the ivory tower and away from them stay connected to their needs and what it is that they need. So these are some of the ways that we do it. Of course, we do it by showing them appreciation, right? Recognizing them and their way, finding out what’s meaningful for them, what motivates them, and then recognizing them in that way, that helps them feel important as well.

Jenn DeWall:

It’s so interesting that the topic, again, it’s, you know, make someone feel that they matter. And one way of doing that is just by not canceling your meetings. If you have a one-on-one scheduled, and it’s so interesting because I think people don’t realize, like, it might seem like a simple cancel. I’ve got a lot going on. I’m going to cancel this one-on-one, but yes, you are. You’re not saying it to them, but you’re saying to them that they don’t matter. Something else came in. I think most people will understand if something’s come up, but a lot of times, it might be just canceling it. I’ve got something else and then no reschedule until next month’s check-in. Right? And then they’re like, Oh, I know we didn’t have the one. I think that people, cause it seems so obvious to me that you would think most leaders are like, yeah, like leadership 101, probably show them that they matter. But yet I know it’s not that common because we get caught up in our own distractions or whatnot. But like, what do you notice of like, what gets, what gets in people’s way of being able to show that their employees are important?

Heather R. Younger:

Well, I mean, I think as you would probably imagine it is that day-to-day, it’s just us getting caught up in the day-to-day. I mean, I have had to cancel meetings myself, and I’ve written multiple books on this. I speak on this. Right. I have had to cancel, but here’s what I do. I always right away- I get it back on the calendar. There’s no them running after me trying to see where I’m at. And I’m also really good at spontaneously showing up to just check-in. If I didn’t have the formal meeting, checking in, seeing what I can do to remove barriers. Is there anything I can do? You? I was at a this has been several years ago, I was working in a government, local government space. And I was in an interview with one of my team members.

We were interviewing a guy that we really want to bring on. And the gentlemen asks, well, what’s so good about your team. Like, why should I come? Why should I come to join you and not this other organization? And there was a silence, and it was super awkward. And I didn’t want to answer. I was like letting I wanted the team member to answer. The team member took a little minute. And he says you know what? This lady right here. And I went, what? And he says, no, here’s why, because before you came, no managers really stopped by to check on us. We didn’t really feel that important. No one ever set up meetings to come see us or for us to go see them. They, you just took the time to make us feel special, and that made all the difference. And that’s the reason why I think you should join this team because Heather does that.

And it’s, this is not to prop me up. It’s about the practice that I’m talking about. So I’m sharing a practice that I know when I put in the book. It’s the practice of it. It’s the expression of the behaviors, daily actions, and being consistent, right? It’s not doing it once in a while. It’s not meeting with your team member once every three weeks or three months or whatever that is. It’s not just a performance review that you take that time to understand and know who they are. It’s going to the bottom of it. I’ve had many team members come to my office in tears. One woman came in. That’s the same, the same employer. She came into me, and she was really upset because she felt like someone was like stalking her at home. And so we were like, okay, how do we get with local authorities?

So I’m working with her on all this stuff that has nothing to do with work. But I’m helping her because I want her. I know she needs to feel safe. She can’t even concentrate at work. She has to feel safe outside of work for her to feel comfortable inside and for her to even be able to do her job. So again, considering the whole person means all the other, the different, the complexities of the person. And when we meet them there, they feel completely enveloped, right? They feel like, Ah! And safety is so critical, and having that sense of care and belonging is a huge one too.

Caring Leaders Manage the Whole Person

Jenn DeWall:

I have to dig deeper on this one because I think, you know, you just talked about something that, again, many people were conditioned to beware of in leadership. You are blurring a line! You’re just supposed to focus on what they’re doing in the office. What? I don’t care what happens outside, and no, they may not necessarily feel like they don’t care, but they were taught to show that that’s not okay to care. Where do you think that we even learned the lesson to only see half of the person or to only see them at work?

Heather R. Younger:

I hate to say it, but I think there were a lot of HR practices that just early on made us be so afraid of the legalities of going too close or getting too close to our team members. I am a lawyer by training, so I’m gonna just put that out there. Don’t hold it against me. I think the key here, though, I rather them smack me a little bit on my hand. I’m going to lean on the side of people, on humanity, on meeting them where they’re at. Then I will, the other side, I know a lot of people live more in a, a place of fear or compliance. And I understand that, but you are not getting the most you can get out of your team. And I know what I mean by that is kind of, if you want unity, you want, you want cohesiveness, you want to deliver great results. You want a team that’s shiny. You’re going to do the things I’m talking to you about, just plain and simple.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I want to go so much all in on this because I think when you post a job description; you’re never looking for an individual who will separate their work persona from their home persona. Or the individual that will challenge the status quo. The individual that will not show emotions. How do organizations or cultures end up kind of abiding by that unwritten rule of that expectation for us to show it because they would never post something like that? Like, Hey, looking for half a person, thank you. We do a lot of great here, but then people and even your top dealers end up showing up that way. How do you think that happens? It’s because we’re not caring leaders. I know. That’s what I mean.

Heather R. Younger:

Here’s the thing. I’m going to make sure I state this too. I write about this. I speak about this. And I’m a caring leader in development. And we all are. We’re on this journey together. Some of us are closer, like we are further in, right? And some of us have some more ways to go, but we are all on that journey together. So this book is not about perfection. These concepts are not about perfection. It’s about continuous improvement. It’s about consistent daily actions to show concern and kindness for those you lead. Consistent didn’t say perfect- notice that I didn’t say consistently perfectly delivered. No. And it’s because, like the art, the idea is that we all have our own brushstrokes to how we deliver on these things and how, and the end-user of our leadership experience is the employee. Right? So as a leader, it’s those who look to us for guidance that actually are the ones who are the gauge, whether we care or not because they feel the care.

It’s not just our expression. And it’s the end-user experience that makes it. See, it’s creative; there’s a creative element to it. That’s why it’s the art. Because it’s the brush strokes that we as individual leaders add to the mix of all of it. And so I think that when we think about why that, why cultures are created that way, I mean, I think we’re just all, unfortunately, it’s ingrained in us and all early leadership and management training where they say, this is how you do it, and you do this. And we kind of, it would just like pass down like a legacy of this, right? Well, I want to basically pass down this radical power of care. This it’s not candor; it’s care. And it’s, how do we do that for people all over the world. I want to create a new legacy, a legacy of care, and it’s not rocket science, but I can tell you this you’ll know it. When the person receives it on the other end, you’ll see it on their face, and you’ll see it in the results they deliver.

What Mistakes Do Caring Leaders Make?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, I love that. And it’s just. I love that you made, you know, really, it’s not about perfection people, no one is expecting you. You likely already make yourself like, put all that pressure on to be that. But it is about trying, and out of curiosity, wherein your experience, or from your shoes, how do you think the pandemic has impacted our ability to show that we’re a caring leader? Like what are some missteps maybe, or just some subconscious, like errors that people have been making in that way?

Heather R. Younger:

I actually think the pandemic has helped in this regard. And that is because we have no choice but to lead the person that’s on the screen with the kid screaming in the background and all the, we just get no work done. We get nothing done. Suppose we don’t lead the whole, that person behind the screen. I mean, my dog walks in. My kids start yelling again. The other day was like. I was on the phone with somebody; they were doing a podcast of me. I was on their show, and they had like, their elderly parent was like coming through their virtual background. Like, this is what happens. And we have to have, now we have to say, Oh, that’s your child. What’s their name? I mean, if you don’t, of course, you’re looking at the idiot, and you won’t look at your care, but most of us were saying, Oh, what’s their name? Oh my gosh, you have a dog. What’s her name?

So now we’re actually getting we’re opening. The doors are opening, right. The window shades are opening. And so it’s actually made it easier in that regard, that the old idea of the leading the whole person. Now having those difficult conversations has not gotten easier for anybody if you haven’t felt just more comfortable leaning into that. Right? So this idea of, you know, how, when you asked earlier, well, how has it, how, how come it’s hard for organizations to have that and where to start? I think it’s, and there is definitely a discomfort with this idea of leading into these conversations, this, this going deep. I had a team member of mine before, have I called them to see what was going on just with some other project. And they were going in a full, they had a full-on anxiety episode, and it was happening right on when I was on the call with them.

And I didn’t go, okay, well, I’m sorry about that. So then the project, what was happening to the project? No, I didn’t do that. I set that need aside and just said, okay, I’ll take care of that another time. What is happening with you? Okay. You right now, here’s what I want you to do. I want you to get off the phone, and when you go for a run, I want you to do this. So I’m just immediately going into her as a person. Right. And yeah, most of you would be uncomfortable with that, but again, you can’t, you can’t get her back on track, which was solutioning from a rational place if you don’t start her from that place or him from that place. Right. So those are just the things I’m talking about. We’re all humans, and none of us are perfect. And if you lead that way, understanding that people are gonna have their faults, and no one’s going to show up perfectly every day. It just makes it. I don’t know. It just, it’s just a warmer, better ride. People want to come to work to be with you.

Leading Authentically as Complex Humans

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I want to come to a place that someone could see. Because I think of many different work environments, and I’m sure there are other people listening that might’ve had a really bad day at work. And then you leave work in the way that I would— I was in tears. And then there’s a lot of judgment, right? There’s a lot of shame like, oh, I’m really mad that I made this mistake, or I’m really upset that I, you know, showed an emotional response. Right. And I think that it’s so important. I just love that you gave people permission to think about it is okay for someone to have a bad day. And by placing the expectation that they should show that anyone else should show up. As some superhuman is just unfair. But sometimes we do that. I mean, I feel like I go back to my earlier pieces of feedback in my twenties. Like Jenn, like, you need to do this, or you need to do that. Like, shut off this. And it’s like, but, but can I just be human? Like, I don’t understand this expectation that it adds. It only perpetuates the stress or the discomfort going into work.

Heather R. Younger:

And I love your humanity. I just love every bit of you. There are parts I didn’t even know about you. And then the other day you started singing before our conference started and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I already loved her. Now. I really love her. But that’s the thing is like, people need to feel comfortable. They were just letting loose. Now I know people think, well, authenticity. Oh, shoot, that means the jerks can be more jerkish. Like, now we’re allowing the jerks to say whatever they want or people to use racist comments. No,  like there are rules here. There are rules of engagement as it relates to respect, you know, human dignity, fairness. There are some basic things that obviously you have to pepper throughout this authenticity thing. We’re talking about revealing parts of yourself, letting other people reveal parts of themselves, you meeting them where they’re at, you embracing who they are.

Those are all important things, but there are some counterbalances there. And so as a leader, it’s our job to say, there’s a piece of this person and a piece of this person, and these two it’s all right that there’s some healthy conflict there. Right? But this thing right here is actually just not right. Like it’s not along with our value system at work. So how do I find a way to align their behaviors with behaviors we accept at work? And so there are all these, humans, we are complex. Right? There’s just so much, though, that you can peel back. And why not take more time to do that with your people?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I just, and I know that I’m coming back to this because it was something that I didn’t understand. I worked for a large fortune 500 company. I’m one of the few pieces of feedback I got where you need to be more vanilla. I’m more of a yes-man. And if you can imagine how difficult that would be, it just feels like, well, I am missing the mark in life here, you know, naturally, if you’re a driven person and you’re like, I guess, and I know there’s truth in feedback right. There absolutely is. Yes. But also, if we want that conformity, I just remember it in the back of my brain. Like you, you legitimately asked me to be a yes-man. And what would that do for innovation? What would that do for an ethical workplace, you know, but yet we somehow have this expectation that we want to create these- I don’t want to say clones because I don’t think it’s ever the initial intent. I think it’s a result of subconscious actions that you create. I don’t think there are leaders out there that are like, let’s create this vanilla workforce. Well, I guess if it was in the case of giving me that feedback, then I guess you might be striving for that. It’s just. I am so perplexed. Why it is such a challenging thing to understand that authenticity is a huge value to your team and organization. Yet we want to control it by making everyone the same, and I just don’t get it.

Heather R. Younger:

Yeah, I know. And I hats off to the organizations who have kind of been, been okay with, like allowing more of that individuality to come through. And, and also, again, it’s a constant, I’m not going to say this is easy coming out as a totally authentic organization where you’re allowing her to be authentic is not going to be an easy process because there will be a counter, there’ll be conflict. So the counterbalancing ways that people show up, I know this to be true. And, but it is, that’s why we get paid the big bucks. That’s why we have power and authority we have is we have to figure out the human relations side of things. And so we have to say, how do we, how do we balance the two? I’ve been talking a lot to leaders now about this whole idea of a return to work and that there are some who are returning to work, who have been at home and don’t really want to come back, or they’d only want to come back in a hybrid way.

And then you have the other ones who actually already have their team members who had to be at work the entire time who never left. Who’s been wearing masks nonstop for the last year? And then the leaders sitting in the middle, having these like squeamish really weird feelings. Because they’ve been at home too, and they’re having a hard time figuring out how do you stand in the middle of that and how do you decipher it? And how do you make sure that whatever your decision is, it’s fair? And it is your job to do that. It is your job to step out of your shoes and into the shoes of the team, the people that look to you for guidance. It’s just, that is the job we have. It’s not for everybody, which is why not everybody should be promoted as to be a manager or a leader of people. But it is a job that needs to get done in order for us to lead them well.

Jenn DeWall:

I, you know, and that’s such a valuable thing, it’s, it is an intentional effort to get the most out of your people. It is not just applying the fanciest tool or trend. It is something that you visit every single day. Oh my gosh. And I love what you just shared too. Not everyone is meant to be a leader, and you know what? That’s okay too. But yeah, we have this expectation that if you want to be successful, you’ve got to be a people leader. And I just like, you was inviting liability into your leadership, if you are forcing everyone to do that.

Heather R. Younger:

Yes. And actually, and I, and I’m going to qualify that statement too. I’m going to qualify my statement. If I said that, my statement would be this, not everybody should be a manager of people. Everybody should be a leader of themselves. So I want to make sure I call it that as anybody’s listening, I don’t care if you have a title that that’s really actually relevant is how do you show up in a more caring way to those you lead? It’s showing, listen. It’s showing concern and kindness for those who look to you for guidance and or those that look to you for leadership. It doesn’t have to come with a title. If you do have a title, though, you have even more power, and you can change that to be more positive power, not like the negative authoritative type of power. So I just wanted to qualify that.

Caring Leadership is Self-Leadership Too

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, no, I think that’s so important. You don’t have to just be a leader of people to be a leader. It is. And I know that’s one of your first principles— self-leadership. Like, how are you showing up? What are you, how do you want to come across? What would be any last takeaways that you would want to share with our listeners about The Art of Caring Leadership? Because this is a powerful book, it’s powerful right now. I mean, as a millennial, I can say that this is absolutely what many Millennials want, many Gen Zs. They want to be seen as a person that has value. Like we’re done feeling like we’re just a cog in a wheel. No one wants to feel that way anymore. So what would be, you know, any last pieces of advice that you would want to share?

Heather R. Younger:

I would say one thing that I, I mean, I’m very, very proud of the book, but one thing I’m proud of is that we an entire support system, it’s kind of caring leadership ecosystem or the whole universe for people to enter into. And so we have a self-assessment that you take, there’s an invitation you get at the end of the book, after you take the self-assessment, you’re invited to come into the care and leadership community with other people, caring leaders in development, on the journey with you, so you’re not alone. Aside from that, there’s a caring leadership Academy. So that if there are some gaps that you want to fill those gaps, we talked about that you might be creating for your people, and you see it in his self-assessment. We have the online Academy that’s there. It’s based upon every behavior in the book. And you’re able to go take that. And then we also have caring leadership coaches, literally right there to work with you, to all of it, to say, you don’t have to be on alone generally. And you can have someone as a partner with you along the way. So I’m really super-proud of the book, but I’m proud of the entire support system. After the fact, remember caring leadership is taking daily actions to show concern and kindness for those you lead. This is not rocket science. I promise you. But what it does deliver for you are some hard-line results and people who will go over and above for you, no matter what.

Jenn DeWall:

Gosh, I love that in closing. Would you share one, maybe small thing that anyone could do today, or one or two that you could do today to show that you care?

Heather R. Younger:

Please go to your calendars right now. And if you have five team members, go set up your one-on-one meetings and make it be done in perpetuity.

Heather R. Younger:

Not just this thing, like, Oh yeah, I remember that I should do that. I’m going to actually make this uptake of recurring meetings every week with every direct report. And I promise you that you will not regret it. Yes. And don’t kids let her try to be, you know, unless you have to, but be transparent.

Heather R. Younger:

And Re-schedule it immediately or stop in, you know, spontaneously do something to make up for it.

Jenn DeWall:

So Heather, how do they get access to these resources? I know you just talked about the team. You talked about taking the assessment. Where did we go to be able to access that?

Where to Find Heather R. Younger

Heather R. Younger:

So there, I would say two places. If you go to TheArtOfCaringLeadership.com, you’ll actually get like four or five different downloads you can get from that site. Cool, like infographics and postcards that you can do, you can get. And then also you can go to theartofcaringleadership.com. And that one is where all the self-assessment the community, the Academy, the coaches, those, those are all there. So they all work together again as a whole system, you start with a book. I mean, it’s like a guide people who have read it and reviewed it so far, it’s like, this is you can go chapter by chapter. You can keep coming back. You’re going to put lots of stickies on it, but it is going to be your guidebook to show more care.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for writing this book, Heather, I, on behalf of anyone that’s also ever worked with that difficult employee, I hope that this also lands in the hands of office jerks, but of course, that we all recognize that you are, you provided a great level of tools, skills, and things that people can try so they can create the work environment where everyone can thrive. Thank you so much for writing that book.

Heather R. Younger:

Thank you.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, featuring Heather Younger. If you want to connect with Heather and pick up her newest book, The Art of Caring Leadership, head on over to TheArtOfCaringLeadership.com. There, you can find additional resources as well as pick up your own copy of The Art of Caring Leadership. It’s also available on Amazon too for anyone shipping internationally. If you found that this episode was meaningful or, you know, someone that could benefit from hearing this podcast, please do not forget to share this with them. And of course, if you enjoy this podcast, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. As always, stay with Crestcom. We offer monthly webinars that cover a variety of different leadership topics to address your needs and the challenges of leaders today.

 

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In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn DeWall talks to Projjal “JJ” Ghatak, founder and CEO, about performance management. It’s fair to say that most employees and managers dread performance reviews. Too many organizations rely heavily on the traditional annual review. 

We’ve all been through it, right? Employees and supervisors fill out a generic form, have a stiff conversation about the form, and then don’t think about it again for another year. 

Learning how to manage performance effectively is essential to achieving strategic goals and engaging employees. Don’t miss this episode exploring how to create a more effective performance management strategy that managers and employees can understand and benefit from!

Meet Projjal “JJ” Ghatak, Founder and CEO of OnLoop

Projjal Ghatak, the visionary founder and CEO of OnLoop, is at the forefront of revolutionizing team assessment and development. With an impressive background that includes leadership roles at Uber and Accenture, Projjal has established himself as a seasoned executive in strategy and operations. Armed with an MBA from Stanford, he has chosen Singapore as the base for his entrepreneurial endeavors.

As the CEO of OnLoop, Projjal leads a diverse and global team, spearheading the transformation of the future of work through the company’s innovative approach. Projjal is reshaping the industry with cutting-edge technologies and empowering teams to reach their fullest potential. Under his guidance, OnLoop continues to disrupt traditional paradigms and deliver game-changing solutions in team assessment and development.

Simplifying Performance Management

Ghatak is not a fan of old-style performance management, which often involves boring, yearly reviews. He suggests a new approach called “collaborative team development,” which helps teams work better every day. “Performance management feels like a chore. And when something feels like a chore, nobody does it, and nobody enjoys it,” Ghatak explains.

How Culture Drives Performance Management

Different cultures manage performance differently. Ghatak points out that whether a culture is individualistic or group-oriented or whether it values hierarchy can affect how well performance management works. In the episode, Jenn and Projjal discuss how different cultures around the world view feedback and goals differently.

Using Technology to Help Improve Performance Management

Ghatak believes that technology, especially generative AI, can make performance management easier and more effective. He talks about using AI to automatically create useful feedback, which can change how managers and teams interact. 

He explains, “I realized over time how much more valuable Gen AI could be to even help us think about day-to-day feedback. And what I say is that as human beings, we are good at making observations and we’re good at having conversations. Those two things are natural states of being. 

So if I have a team member and I came out of a meeting, I probably have an observation around, eh, you know, Michael could have prepped a little bit more for that meeting. Maybe he didn’t really answer questions very well. His slides were beautiful. And next time I’d like you to do a little bit more research about the people who are attending the meeting. 

That’s easy for someone to do, but that’s not an observation. It’s not feedback. And what we can do with technology now is split up that observation into specific pieces of either “celebrate” or “improve” feedback.”

How AI Helps Leaders Get Performance Management Right

Later, Ghatak explains how AI can help managers learn to deliver better feedback, saying, “Essentially, what we able to do in the (OnLoop) app is record a voice observation, right? And then we can analyze that voice observation to identify the pieces of feedback that exist in it. 

So, usually, when someone has an observation, there might even be two, three, or four pieces of different feedback hidden in it. Then, you can extract that out and rewrite it in the right form. You might be familiar with Kim Scott’s work in Radical Candor. As she says, all good feedback is direct and kind. 

AI can help you convert any observation to a written form that is direct and kind. You can extract behaviors, skills, or organizational values that are demonstrated or not demonstrated in that feedback.

Before generative AI, we had to teach people how to give and receive feedback. Now we can use generative AI to do that for people. And that’s a far more effective way to do it than trying to train people. And so with every new wave of technology, we can solve HR problems in new ways, and feedback is very ripe for disruption with generative AI.” 

A Clear Framework for Success

In the episode, Ghatak shares that he uses a clear plan to help teams improve. 

This plan includes:

• Engagement: Making sure team members care about their work.
• Productivity: Having clear goals so everyone knows what to do.
• Growth: Offering regular feedback to help people get better at their jobs.

Where to Find More from Projjal

Be sure to listen to the full episode to hear more of Projjal Ghatak’s insights about the need to change how we think about performance management. By using new tools and thinking about personal and cultural differences, companies can help employees do their best work and be more engaged. 

To connect with Projjal “JJ’ Ghatak: 

• Find him on LinkedIn
• Visit His Website

Do you want to learn more about Crestcom LEADER, our interactive leadership development program and how it can help managers become better leaders? Visit our website to learn more about booking a free leadership skills workshop for your team!

The post How to Get Performance Management Right with Projjal “JJ” Ghatak appeared first on Crestcom International.

Becoming an Unapologetic Leader with Bold Move Expert, Rick Clemons

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with unapologetic leader Rick Clemons. Rick is a culture disruptor. He shakes up the status quo. He’s a closet-buster. He’s shattered those silly beliefs and is a bold move expert like Superman without the muscles and cape. His superpower is guiding people to make bold moves so they can live life on their terms. Everything Rick’s discovered living his life this way, he learned from coming out of the closet at the age of 36, getting laid off from two sweet corporate jobs, and making the crazy decision to become an entrepreneur at the age of 43. Rick’s book, Frankly My Dear, I’m Gay, his podcast Life Uncloseted, coaching, speaking, and workshops that represent his no BS approach for making bold moves without a safety net to be found. He was put on this earth to remind people that closets are for clothes, not living. He is a husband and has one, surviving raising two girls, thus the reason he’s bald! And he will gladly work for wine but prefers money to pay for things like toilet paper and ice cream. Today Rick and I sat down to talk about how you can lead unapologetically.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with Rick Clemons, who is a keynote speaker, facilitator, and let’s all talk about global, but he is the man that you go to if you want to make bold moves. And it’s only fitting then to talk to the expert that helps us understand how we can overcome our own obstacles, how we can actually live the life that we want to. And he is actually going to be helping us learn how to show up as an unapologetic leader. This is a voice that we all need as it’s a very important topic that many leaders struggle with. Rick, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. It is so great to have you. Thank you.

Meet Rick Clemons, Unapologetic Leader, Coach, Speaker and Author

Rick Clemons:

I’m so excited to be here. I’m seriously excited. And I’m not just saying that, like the guest who’s like, oh, I’m so excited. I’m really excited to be here because I think leaders need to learn the importance of being unapologetic without being a jerk. So I’m just kind of sliding that in cause I know where we’re going, but listen, if you want to learn how to do that.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I love this topic because I think it’s what even some of you put an ear to the ground. This might be what your employees want. They just don’t have the courage to say, or that’s maybe how they want to show up. And so it’s someone else trying to determine their style, but Rick, before we dive into the content, cause I know you and I will have a great conversation. Can you just tell our audience a little bit about you?

Rick Clemons:

I was born. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. My mother went through absolute, you know, long, long labor for me because I was six foot four, so was like, wow. But I come from the corporate world. I was always. I was always the guy who never quite got to that next tier up. I’d come in. I work hard. I do the thing that I do. I’m really good at what I do most of the time. And I’m just the worker-bee guy. But as a leader, I never quite got to that next tier. And then I’d move on to the next job and then, the same thing. And then I’d not quite get there and not quite get there. And as that pattern repeated itself, I started getting burnt out, but I was always apologizing to myself. It’s okay. You know you didn’t quite do this.

So, you know, here are the excuses of why I didn’t get where I was going until the big day that I got laid off, and I literally got laid off. I came back to work on a Monday from a week-long vacation on Cape Cod. I’m like, okay, cool. And the company I was working for at that time, we were making some pretty big strides. I’d help them move from zero revenue to almost 5 million in revenue in about three years’ time. And I knew we were on some big projects, and I walk in, and okay, maybe I’m a little bit like jet lag coming from East Coast to West Coast. And then maybe I had a few too many drinks on the plane, and I’m like, cool, let’s get this thing going. And they literally like, Hey, can you come to have a chat with us? I’m like, sure. I figured we’re just going to start strategizing. Right. Rick’s got his vacation. So now, let’s start working him to death again. Right?

We’re letting you go. And I was like— I can’t believe this, this happened six years ago. So those you realize like, well then you must be a bad egg. I know I wasn’t a bad egg. I was the guy that projected that, Hey, I could just, you know, I can do anything. And that was literally what they said to me, Jenn. Like we really need to cut back, and we know you’re the guy that’s gonna bounce back. And that was the moment I was like, I’m not doing this anymore. If I’m going to be a leader and I’m going to lead anything, it’s going to be my own business. And I was scared to death. And I started having all the fears and the imposter syndrome showing up. And then I said, you know what? There’s no apologizing this time. You’re going for it. And that’s what launched everything. Now, when that happened, would I’ve seen that I would have created this beautiful brand with no fears, no excuses, no apologies. Oh no. There was so much going on in my head at that point, like— okay, Big Boy, so you’re going to do this. You’re going to put the, you know, you’re going to draw a line in the sand. You’re going to make your big, bold move. What the heck are you going to do?

And it was such an interesting journey to be in that space to walk away from corporate to go, okay, I’m going to go solo. I’m literally going solo. Luckily I had a spouse who had a good income, and I wasn’t needing to lean on them, but wow, what a journey. And without that journey, Jenn, I don’t think I would have learned some of the things that we’re going to talk about today, about what it really means to become that unapologetic leader, create unapologetic mindsets, help your teams get into space where they live, breathe and act from a place of no excuses and no fears.

What Does it Mean to Be an Unapologetic Leader?

Jenn DeWall:

Wow, it’s just a true story of resilience. And I love also given, you know, many people have likely just walked in on that Monday and had that very similar meeting over the last year of finding out that they were either furloughed or they were let go because of, you know, all, everything as a result of the pandemic. And I love that we’re starting from how you went from maybe being that person that, you know, apologized, apologized and apologized, just saying, you know what, I’m going to show up. I’m going to believe in myself, and I’m going to be resilient. I think this message is so essential for so many people to hear right now.

Rick Clemons:

Well, I think not only are people needing to hear it but here’s the interesting thing in the last year. I have seen so many people step into that because so many people got, whether they got laid off or they’re like, wow, I wasn’t really ready to be this work from home, teach kids from home, all that sort of stuff. I saw more people in my worlds, the couple that I play in, for sure. One being the speaking coach where you and I met. I saw so many people grab on to literally grab onto; if not now, when will I? And they took that mentality, and they unapologetically said, now’s the time to go do this? Now’s the time to go the, do that, whatever it was for them, whatever their, this or that was. And in my private coaching practice, along with the speaker lab coaching that I do, so many people stepped up to that plate. The key is you got to give yourself permission to go there. And I saw a lot of people giving themselves permission this year.

Jenn DeWall:

It’s so interesting. Do you feel like it was very intentional like the pandemic shook you to recognize your priorities? Or do you feel like, for many people, it was whoops, I guess I just have to do this? Like, do you think I guess the pandemic forced them to do it or created the awareness to do it?

Rick Clemons:

I think it did both. And I also think it not only did it force some people, others, but it also created the awareness, and for others, it was the big idea. It was like, wow, okay. I’ve, I’ve worked from home now for a month, two months, three months—I kind of like this. I guess I could do this. Do you know? And I think we’ll see, this is such the Petri dish, even now, you know, as companies are starting to like, well, let’s do we come back or do we come back hybrid? And half the workforce is here, and half the workforce is at home or whatever it might be. I think we’re in the midst of the revolution. I think the way we do business and the way we work, and how we show up in the world, we’re still in the Petri dish and for leaders, for leaders, especially.

And I, and I’m going to kind of redefine leaders. We all are leaders. We lead ourselves every day. We lead ourselves to get up out of bed, which is a real chore for me, trust me. But we lead ourselves every day. And when we realize that unapologetic leadership starts with ourselves, but as leaders, think about how much you could be apologizing for whatever has happened for the last year, but what is that going to get you? Pick up yourself, take that mindset of no excuses, no fears, step into it and go, okay. If I’m going to unapologetically lead this team that half of them may be from home, and half of them may be coming in the office or the hybrid where this week you’re in the office the next week you’re not. Think about the beautiful opportunities for you as a leader to unapologetically go, and we’re going to embrace. We are going to embrace this new way of being in the world. It’s huge.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and it’s huge just for, we need that leader still. We need that leader that is going to confidently say in the face of uncertainty— we will figure this out. So let’s baseline it. What does it mean to show up as an unapologetic or unapologetic leader? What does that look like? Or I guess what would be the definition of an unapologetic leader?

Rick Clemons:

You know, Jenn, it’s interesting because it’s so personal yet it involves everybody else. So I could be an unapologetic leader and be like, Nope, no apologies for the way I act. No apologies for the way I show up at work. No apologies. I’m the King bee, and you all bow down to me. Okay. That could be an unapologetic leader. But I believe the real, unapologetic leaders are the ones that say, I’m going to unapologetically admit when I screw up, I am unapologetically going to admit when I’m saying, this is the way we’re going to do things. I’m unapologetically going to be empathetic. Be the listening ear. Even when some employees may say, you sure do spend a lot of time with Jenn. You sure do let her, you know, come to your office and talk about her woes a lot. Sometimes you have to unapologetically say, and if that’s what Jenn actually needs for Jenn to continue to be successful on our team, then I’m going to make room for that.

If I have to unapologetically say, here’s the cutback that we’re going to make, but I know this is in the best interest of everyone concerned. Otherwise, we’re not going to have a team to even need to bring to the office if we don’t make this happen. That, to me, is what unapologetic means. Realizing that you’re going to have tough decisions, but don’t apologize for those tough decisions, unapologetically embrace them. This is what we gotta do. This is how we got to show up. This is what’s got to get done and keep moving forward. But at the core of it, align it with your own personal values, as much as you can, because when you’re in core alignment with your personal values, then you can unapologetically do anything

Unapologetic Does Not Mean Uncaring

Jenn DeWall:

I love. Yes. I love the values talk, but I think it’s, you’re bringing up a really, I guess I would say a misstep that a lot of leaders make, which is that they bear the burden of the difficult news as if they are the one that personally decided it and wanted it. They hold onto that weight of the world. And boy, does that make leadership challenging if you’re apologizing for the fact that the organization needs to make layoffs. And there’s a difference I’m guessing too, like that you would say, then there’s a difference between, yeah, I’m sorry that we’re making this layoff, versus judging yourself for being the one that has to do the news. You can also apologize as a human, but understand that that’s just a way to lead. How do you kind of describe that? I guess delicate dichotomy that people have to play where I’m apologizing for the company, and you know, just, I loved working with you.

I guess the point that I’m trying to say is like, how do you even balance that as a leader to not burden yourself? Because I think a lot of people, especially if you’re tasked with layoffs, you initially go to judgment guilt. It’s not easy. I don’t know very many people that can just fire someone without any, even if there were a lot of wrongs like people are still we’re humans. Right? And so how do you differentiate that as being able to apologize and from a humane, caring, supportive perspective versus apologizing because I’m bearing the ownership of the difficult choice.

Rick Clemons:

I believe it comes down to how you view it. And I’m so glad you used the terms bearing that, you know, bearing that burden. It comes down to how you view bearing that burden. If you’re like, this sucks. I shouldn’t have to be the one that does this. It’s a whole different apologetic stance you’re taking versus you know what? This is a tough decision. And yes, I don’t like the fact that I’m the one being called to this, but I invite everyone listening, whether you’re the leader or somebody else in the room. So to speak, to realize if this is what you’re being called to do, this is what you’re being called to. Do you have the opportunity to do this? It all comes down to your own mindset. And if I enter into it like, Oh my God, this sucks. I really don’t want to do it.

Even if it was my best girlfriend, Jenn, that I’m going to have to let go, which is never going to happen because I’m never letting go of Jenn, just saying it. But if I know in my heart that what I’m about to do is because this is what’s going to be best in the situation. I’m not going to own it. Like you suck Rick, you really suck at this. I don’t like this situation. But to me, an unapologetic leader will say, I don’t like this situation, but I understand, and I own the fact that this is what needs to occur. Then there’s no real apology in my mind that needs to happen. Yes, Jenn, I’m really sorry. Yes, because I am, I’m really sorry, human to human, that this is what I have to do. But I do know at that moment, and this was a biggie for me, Jenn, because I was really ticked off when this happened to me at that point in time.

But then, of course, years later, when I’m like, cool, look at me, I’m an entrepreneur. I’m doing all these great things. I don’t have to go to the office. I get to sit in my underwear, and you know, yada, yada yada, right. It was such a big shift because then it suddenly became clear. What happened for me was the best thing that could ever happen. Whether it’s laying somebody off deciding to add a whole new team that’s going to maybe cause us not to be able to give raises, there are things that are happening because they’re meant to be happening. Now we can’t look in the crystal ball, of course, but if something’s happening, the situation is showing up because this is the next best move. And when we look at things through that scope, which is really hard because we’re humans, and we get in our little human heads, and we go, Oh my gosh, this is going to be so bad. We do not know that until it actually happens. And that’s the key, don’t overanalyze this stuff because the moment you start or over-analyzing it, what do you start hearing? I’m so sorry we have to do this. Think about it every time we overanalyze; we’re one step away from the excuse or the apology.

Jenn DeWall:

It’s you know this, and I know out of curiosity, from your perspective, I know you, you coach people, you, you know, have written a book about living bolder. How do you think that people initially, or why do we personalize so much as leaders? Why don’t we? I know I do it as a leader. I personalize every time I step in front of a classroom for Crestcom. I, you know, personalize that experience. I, if I get one bad review or if someone doesn’t like an exercise, I can, you know, personalize that even though it may not have anything to do with me. And I think it’s always just if I am really great at taking any negative and personalizing it, but I really great at not even looking at a positive and saying, but I did that, no, I’m much better at that personally assigning the ways that I am not adding up.

Rick Clemons:

Yeah. I know this because I know Jenn really well. And she has like this girl scout badge, that’s all her negative. She has a negative badge, which she just adds to the, to her little, you know, sash thing. But great question because here’s how I look at it. Why do we do this? Three letters- E G O. It’s our egos. Our egos are what causes this every freaking time. Okay. I’m going to do this. In fact, I’m going to do a training this evening, and I’m already in there. I am already in there. Okay. I just gotta be like this, and this is going to happen here. And I’ve already changed shirts three times trying to figure out, okay, which shirt is not going to show my sweat? Because I know I sweat. I know it’s going to happen. I’ve already determined. It’s going to happen tonight. And I got to make sure I wear the right shirt so that, you know, and I’m like, Rick, you’re causing the sweat already. Now, granted, it’s going to be outside, and it’s going to be, you know, low seventies, which is some people are like, that’s cool. Not when you’re a big boy, like me, that’s hot.

So, but it’s our ego. We need the stroke. We want to make sure we don’t screw up. We need to make sure we get the accolade. Oh wow. Rick, let me ask you this question. Do you know what you’re going to do tonight? Have you done this before? Do you love the industry? I’m doing something for the wine industry. Do you love the industry you’re doing it for? Do you enjoy being with those kinds of people? Oh, so far, there has been a checkmark to every question I just asked myself, then why are you letting your ego get in the way? Why don’t you just go do what you do, know that you know how to do it, and see what happens? Now that doesn’t mean chuck everything out the window, like, okay, let’s just show up and say, right. You know, don’t be prepared, no- be prepared, but it’s our ego that causes this, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

I wish I could, because for me, and I think that this could be the case for many leaders, whether they are new, whether they’re more established, I do feel and put a tremendous amount of pressure that if I am leading an organization, a training, whatever I am leading, then I want to be liked. And it’s just because I want to make everyone happy. And that is, I know at a baseline that’s impossible, but yet I still put this expectation out there. And so then that is my biggest obstacle and showing up unapologetically because, Oh gosh, I never ever want to, in some way, not meet someone’s expectations. Of course, or give them the wrong impression, but yet, where do we? How do I get that muscle every day? I’m going to work on it. And I know even work with people on this, but it’s, that is I think the biggest challenge for me if we’re just talking about what holds us back from showing up out apologetically, I still struggle. And I will always have to struggle with just that needing to be liked.

Moving out of Confusion into Curiosity

Rick Clemons:

But that’s part of what we, I think as humans, and I’m going to generalize here, which I don’t like to do too often, but I’m going to blatantly going to admit, I’m going to make a generalization here. I think we thrive in the confusion because if we start thriving in this confusion of, okay, am I going to be really good? Well, I’m probably not going to be really good. But well, you know what, if I don’t- guess what? Then we actually don’t have to do anything. All we get to do is sit here and spin most of the time when we’re in these spaces, even though we were marching towards that, I’m, you know, I’m marching, you know, and another three hours, I’m going to be walking into that winery, unable to drink out. Let’s just make that clear cause I’m training. So no drinking. Unfortunately, no, there probably will be some afterward, but it’s the confusion that I’m almost starting to thrive in because we need, we need other stuff to keep us kind of occupied from doing the thing we need to do.

And it’s such an interesting space when we realize we are creating the confusion, and we’re letting our ego be the master planner of all this. There is not one thing I can do tonight— unless I just really blatantly screw up— that isn’t going to be just as it should be. I’ve been. I’ve done this numerous times. I know my content really well. And why should I sit there and go, okay, but what if, what if, what if? What is that going to get me? I’m going to be so worked up by the time I get there that I probably will screw up. So instead, we step out of the confusion, and we start to talk about, Hmm, what else could I do?

Is that really possible? How can this be different? Because we’re now getting really curious. And I would love the listeners to think about this. And even, you know, Jenn, you don’t have to listen to this. This is now my show. So you just sit there. Okay. But I want you to think about the last time you started to like getting really antsy about something. And you started worrying about what you were going to do, and you kept thinking, okay, well, but you know, this is, I could do this, and that’s going to screw it up. And then I’m going to, you know, the podcast, isn’t going to be like, Rick and I are having this conversation, and I forgot to turn the record button on. All that stuff could have been going through your head until you did one thing. You asked yourself some questions. You got curious. Well, how can I make sure I turned the record button on? Hm. I put a little post-it note on my computer turn the record button on. How can I be really comfortable with the guest on the podcast? Let’s have a five-minute chat before we get on there. What can I do? Because we got curious.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I think that’s a powerful thing that we thrive in that confusion and because it keeps us busy. Right? We, in some way, think that it’s probably maybe reducing our anxiety, making sure we’re as prepared as possible, even though it’s doing the opposite, it’s likely adding. I love the foundational trust that you’re talking about. The trust that I’m going to, you know, just as you had talked about with your training, I know tonight you’re going to deliver a training, you know, your content, you know, you’re going to do it great, but then sure. We can just, you know, add a little complexity by jumping into confusion with it. Instead of trusting yourself that you’ve done everything that you could to best position yourself. And I think that’s the true definition of being unapologetic is just saying I did my best. I guess what I’m thinking of now, as you’re talking, is really the four agreements and one of the agreements, which is always doing your best, and that’s all you can give.

Rick Clemons:

And the other interesting thing about being a leader, if you think about what starts to happen on teams. If you truly want to be unapologetic as a leader, you will quickly learn how to quit causing confusion. You will recognize when confusion is happening and get your team curious. Get yourself curious because you cannot be confused and be curious at the same time. Because when you get curious and you ask questions, you start getting answers. If you have answers, can you be confused? Not very often. The answers might cause you some more confusion, but the more curious you keep getting, and the more questions and the more things you keep doing, you’re going to get out of that confused state. But there are leaders, and there are leaders kind of raising my hand just a little bit, who at times can be really good at, let’s just confuse everybody.

Let’s just get you because this is how I’m going to. This is how I’m going to feel like I’m doing what I’m supposed to do. I had one of those bosses when I was in the hotel industry; I hated him. I absolutely hated the guy because he would literally like tell one side of us to do one thing and tell the other side to do that. And then like, so I don’t understand why nothing’s getting done right here, people. Because you told us both to do different things! You’re not going to be a good leader if you create confusion, and you can’t be an unapologetic leader if you’re constantly saying I’m sorry I got you so confused. I’m sorry I stirred up the crud at work. I’m sorry that the team’s not—Really? Who’s at the center of the team not working together. You, buddy boy. You, miss thing.

The Six C’s of Unapologetic Leadership

Jenn DeWall:

I love that. Okay. So let’s jump into your six C’s! Because you have six C’s to becoming an unapologetic leader, and I think this is important. And again, it may be you’re sitting there in my chair. You are someone that struggles with the need to be liked, or maybe you are creating confusion, which we can do again as a result of not having competence in ourselves. So let’s talk about how we can show up. I am all ears for this. Rick, what are the six C’s to becoming an unapologetic leader?

Confusion & Curiosity

Rick Clemons:

You touched on two of them. So that’s confusion and curiosity. Think about anything that’s going on with your team or anything. That’s going on with you personally. As a leader, if you are struggling, I can almost a hundred percent say if you are struggling, it’s because you are confused. And the more you sit in your confusion, the more you’re going to feel like you’re a victim. The more you’re going to feel like everybody’s got it out for you. The more you feel like you’re going to be a failure, that little voice, that that’s the imposter syndrome, who’s going for the Oscar nominee. They’re going to be playing full out because you’re allowing confusion to take you there. But the flip side of that is curiosity.

Because as soon as you start to get curious, guess what happens without confusion, and with curiosity, it’s really hard to make excuses for why things are going wrong because you’re getting the answers. You’re getting the input. And one of the quickest ways to get rid of excuses is to get into curiosity mode. It’s so simple. And if you, again, if people are sitting there thinking, God, I hope to God, they’re not falling asleep, but hopefully, they’re thinking about everything we’re saying here. It’s such an interesting space to play in. When you think about the last big explosion that may have happened in your personal life or in your work life or anything that you’ve been doing, why did it happen? Because there was some conflict, there was some confusion about what needed to be done or a direction to go. Confusion is the space you got to move out of. And into curiosity, because once you start asking the questions, good questions. Not yes or no. Do we like the boss? No, that’s not going to help. What is it we don’t like about the way our boss is leading? Now we’re going to get someplace. What is it he doesn’t like about the way the team is not collaborating? Now we’re going to get someplace. What is she doing when she says, I’m going to be listening to you when she closes the door and says, I don’t have time to listen to you. These are the things that are going to help you start to figure out how do we get curious to start solving the problem?

Because as soon as you start getting super curious, we step into the arena where we can do one thing, which is facing our fears because, with the answers, we can start looking at the fears. Well, I don’t know if this is going to work. I don’t think we should put Tom in that position. You know, Tom, all he wants to do is play video games in the afternoons, you know, whatever it is, the thing is, is the fears are sitting there. But the more curious you got, the more courage you’re going to have. So there’s number three C- the courage you’re going to have to start moving forward, to start facing a fear, to literally commit to I am going to do this. So courage and commitment go together.

How do I know this works? I want you to think back, Jenn, to maybe the first time you tried to do something, ride a bike, roller skate, do your own nails, whatever it was. There was probably a little bit of excitement, but also, I don’t know if I can do this. I don’t know if I can do this. It was scary, right? Yeah. I mean, I remember the first time I tried to do my own nails. I was scared to death to do them, you know, and I guess, you know, mom was gonna catch me doing my own nails or something like that, but it was kind of scary. But as soon as I started asking myself questions, well, but what would be really fun about being able to ride my bike down that hill with my buddies? Well, what will I really enjoy about being able to swim in the pool, you know, in the middle of the summer versus being scared? Or what might happen if I really do go off that high dive? Will I enjoy it or not? What will be the most fun thing about it? Suddenly once I started asking those questions, I’m like, yeah, let’s try. Because then I have the courage, and I have the ability to commit to doing something. So as a leader, what is something you, Jenn, have seen yourself curious about that I don’t have the courage to go do this as a leader?

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I mean, the example is now outside of leadership that I keep thinking of, and maybe I’m thinking about how I did these in quick succession. I think about a vacation that I had taken pre-pandemic. I was hiking, and I am I’m terrified of heights. I don’t like heights at all. And the first part of this 12-mile hike that my lovely friends helped me go on was basically walking. You had a rope that you could hold on to, but it was just a drop-off. And before we got there, I, because it gave the warnings, which I didn’t know about. I had no idea until I got to the trailhead, and initially, it was confusion. I’m like, do I go back? We had just hiked up this mountain. Like we just, because that’s the way that you get to the trailhead. And then I don’t know if I went to curiosity, but my curiosity, went to, how will I make it through? Should I crawl on my hands and knees? What do I do?

Rick Clemons:

But that is curiosity. Those are questions you’re asking yourself because in those questions, what were you starting to realize?

Jenn DeWall:

That I can figure it out, it’s going to be a short moment. I can describe it. And then yes. I mean, tears down my face. I legitimately grabbed onto the rope, and I just walked. And I know to some people that if you’re not afraid of heights, it probably if I showed you this, you would say that’s nothing done. But when you were terrified of heights, that is something. And I think that I went to the courage and I’m like, okay, I’ve got to do this. Like I’m already seeing how I went through. Even these six things to show up in a more cause at again, the basis of unapologetic leaders, confidence and it’s yeah. I just, okay. Continue on. I’m just, that’s how I’m seeing that.

Courage and Commitment

Rick Clemons:

No, you, you went right through it because you got the courage, and you’re like, okay, I know, okay, here’s the rope. Okay. I can hold onto this. I can get through this. I asked myself, the question is, well, what if I do, what am I going to do? Walk back down the hill? What am I going to do? Sit here while they all go up? What, how much fun will that be? All those things were probably because you were curious. You were starting to ask all the right questions. And then finally, because you’re like, well, I could do this and I, you know, I’ll hold onto the rope and I’ll, I’ll pull myself up on my knees, like get scraped all the way up to the top if I have to, to get it done. Right? But then, with that courage, you committed. Because courage is where commitment shows up, and this is such an interesting little dynamic that I discovered as I was working on this process and thinking through everything and where this all came on in my own life. Suddenly in that drive home from the office, after getting laid off, you know, all this was happening really rapidly. And none of this was actually even on the forefront of like, oh, I’m coming up with this really great thing that’s going to make me super famous. Not that I am super famous, but this has become the backbone of my coaching. I’m sitting in that car. And now I can literally think about what happened on that drive from orange County, California, home to where I live. So a good 60-minute drive. I realized I was super confused. What’s going to happen next? But by God, I’m figuring it out. What can I do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And the more I started asking the questions, the more courage I got. And by the time I got home, even when I walked in and said, honey, I got laid off, but I’m going to build a business. I was committed. I had no clue what I was going to do. But in that little hour, I worked through those first four steps.

I got rid of excuses for the time being they showed up. Like, you know, later that night when I had a glass of wine, then I’m going to be the, you know, all that was going down. Right. But I now can see how I went through this process, and suddenly I was committed. I’m like, I am not. I remember literally with a glass of wine in my hand, turned into my husband. I said I am never, I am never going to work for anybody else again, which isn’t true because now I am working for somebody else again, but I’m doing it out of a real love of what I do. But that was such commitment. And because of the courage and the commitment, the fears started to go away. That didn’t mean they went gone far. They were sitting over there in the shadows, watching me drink. The wine is waiting for me to like, get a little more glass of wine in me. So they come back roaring at me. But it’s such an interesting space when you see that courage and commitment can help you squash the fears. But you can’t stop there because, okay, great, we created this wonderful thing. It’s not quite the best seller like the four agreements, but Oh, look what I created. If you don’t act on it and the action is okay, I’m committed. I’ve got the courage, but do I actually believe I can do this? Do I actually have the confidence to go do what I want to go do? And I think for many leaders, they sit there, and they dream about being the guy in the corner office, or they dream about being the director or running the team, or I could do this better. All that’s great. They got the courage and the commitment to do it. And then suddenly, the opportunity shows up.

Now, I don’t know. Now I’m not going to go for it. Why? You’re right there. You’re standing on the cusp. Well, you know, I probably wouldn’t be really good. Oh, there’s the apology. Well, it probably isn’t the best time for me to do this in my life right now. Oh, there’s the apology. Well, you know, I’ve never really been good with people. Oh, there’s the apology. Then why the heck were you saying you wanted to do this for so long? If you don’t get the confidence to move it forward, you will never consistently show up doing what you want to do.

Confidence and Consistency

Rick Clemons:

If I had not said, Rick, you can become a coach. You can do the work. You can go through the— you can be that guy. You can go do all these things, but you’re going to have to consistently show up saying, this is what I do. This is who I am. This is who the people I help. This is how I do it. Suppose I don’t have the confidence to consistently show up. And if you’re listening and you’re dreaming, and you’re having those lovely little middle of the night dreams, like I’m going to have the corner office and you don’t have the confidence to have the corner office. And you can’t consistently see yourself sitting in the corner office, which isn’t all that defines you as a leader. But it’s a really good visual for most people. You won’t be there. Trust me, because you will find every excuse and apology in the world for not showing up there.

But in my mind, in the way, I think about this, and then my process and what will be in my new book someday is the confidence, and the consistency is what makes you a true leader. The confidence to say, okay, I screwed up. The confidence to say, I hear you. I understand what you’re saying. And based on everything that I know that’s going on for us as a company, I still think this is the best route for us to go. And I’m confident that it is. And I’m going to do everything in my power to consistently make that work. That, to me, is what an unapologetic leader does. They lean into their confidence, and they consistently show up supporting that. That doesn’t mean they’re stubborn. It doesn’t mean that they’re like, it’s my way or the highway, but they get really confident and consistent in how they’re going to do it. That means they’ll flex, too, like, Hey, that’s not working. So let’s kind of back up. Let’s go get curious again. Let’s make another run at this. Okay. Yeah. I got the courage. We’re going to try something new. Great. Now we’re going to commit to this. All right. Now, can I be committed to this and be confident that I can do this? Yep. Okay. Now that you’re saying, you’re confident you can do it. How do you consistently show up and do that day in, day out, day in, day out?

Jenn DeWall:

Where do you think- so the six C’s: confusion, curiosity, courage, commitment, confidence, and consistency. Where do you think if someone is approaching a challenge or that uncertainty, right? Where it all might begin for some people, what step do you think they just get stuck at? And that’s the kind of starting point for them showing up apologetically.

Rick Clemons:

I think there’s a couple; a lot of people get stuck right in confusion. It’s still— it’s all comfy. If I just keep saying, well, I don’t know how I would do it, or I don’t know if I’m capable, then they don’t have to move forward. They don’t have to move forward. The next critical one actually to me is between commitment and confidence. I can commit all day long. Yes. I believe I’m a great coach. And that’s like, but Oh, what do I have the confidence to go out there and get gigs to have the confidence to go out there and find clients? No, but I’m a really good coach. I am committed to being a really good coach. I don’t care how committed you are to be in a really good coach. I don’t care how committed you are to being a really good leader.

If you don’t go out there and take action on it and are confident in going and doing it, you’re going to fail. And that’s, that’s the bridge where I think a lot of people fall into. Some of this is really easy. You can, all, most of us can build up the courage to do anything. I mean, you got enough courage to walk up to that mountain and go, okay, here I am. But it took the commitment. But even as you got started with the commitment, you could have faltered right there, but you were confident that I’m going to do this. Jenn can do this even if it’s thread by thread of this rope that I’m shredding as I’m grabbing onto it, trying to get up that hill. It’s the confidence that you had in yourself to make it happen. That’s where the breakdowns happen. Now. Of course, it can happen for anybody in different places, but those are the two places I see for most people.

I have a guy I’m coaching right now—an amazing guy, very talented. And we’re right up to the brink. I’m clear where I want to go. I’m I know what I want to do. I’ve got the courage that I’m going to make this happen. He’s made some big moves about making it happen. He’s committed. And we are in imposter syndrome central right now because his confidence is not quite there. Good news for me, because I’m like, well, just keep paying me as a coach. But it is an interesting space, Jenn. Great question. By the way. I love that question.

Jenn DeWall:

No, cause I, I do see a lot of it. I think confusion can be. We genuinely don’t know. And so I can see that, you know, I think a popular expression and I’m sure you’ve heard this, that along the way, as well as the paralysis by analysis, that’s the piece of confusion. But then I also feel there is that opportunity to really be a victim. And I think that’s the piece of, are you also telling yourself that there’s no possible option or solution for you to get out of this or that the world is against you? Like, and maybe it doesn’t show up directly as confusion, but I think it’s confusion in understanding where we have responsibility. Yes. Like, and that’s, so I liked that one cause I’m like, I think there, I just think of basic examples. There are plenty of leaders that I work with that will stay in confusion. I don’t know how to get out of this. My team isn’t working together, but it all starts that they’re just confused that it actually starts with them, and they don’t want to take that ownership.

Rick Clemons:

And from the commitment to confidence means you’re taking responsibility. It’s an interesting little place right there where you’re like, okay, I’m going to be responsible for moving myself into that confidence space to go make this happen. Now it’s so interesting, and responsibility shows up every step of the way, but the higher the stakes get, the more your responsibility to yourself is going to show up, and it’s going to show up, and it’s going to stare you in the face every time, every time. In the last couple of times, I’ve had the opportunity show up in the last few years to step into something like higher roles; even though I was working for myself, but there was a couple of opportunities that presented themselves. I really had to stand in that space of commitment and confidence and realizing are you going to take responsibility if I decide to step up into this? Are you willing to be confident enough to go do this? Is this an exciting enough opportunity for you to consistently say, this is what I do? And I got really clear. I, I had two chairs set up, and I’d sit in one chair as a coach. And then I’d set my a little butt over there, and then I’d sit over here. And I was going back and forth, walking myself through my process. And both times, I got to the point where, you know what, I’m not quite ready to take the responsibility to step confidently into this and consistently go do what I’m being offered to do. It was not a match, not just because I was using the whole chair thing, but I also, I mean, I got tired, and I lost like five pounds doing the chair exercise that day, you know? But it’s, it’s one of those things where I dove into my own values too. And I think this six-step process, if you kind of couch it and I know I’ve thrown a lot at the listeners, but if you kind of couch it every step of the way by asking yourself, what do you value? What do you value? What do you value? You’re gonna find it really moves you through there pretty quickly.

Jenn DeWall:

I, I just lost my train of thought.

Rick Clemons:

Because you’re stuck in the chair, you’re like trying to visualize Rick jumping back and forth between chairs. And you’re like. He’s onto a new weight loss idea. You just jump from chair to chair.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s how we do our exercise. No, but I think that this is because the piece that we haven’t maybe touched on as much, but I think you brought up from your chair example. This is a great way to get confidence in your choices. Like if I, I think that again, many people leaders might say yes to something employees might say yes to something, even though they’re already working 60 hours a week and there’s not actually a way that they can do it because we don’t want to have to let someone down or not do that. And I love that you’re also saying apply these six steps to also find your no’s and get confidence in your no’s. That it’s not just to give you do these six steps because this is all about your success in whatever you’re going towards, but also reverse this, make sure to show up unapologetically in what is important to you, not what you feel like someone would want you to do, which I know is again, coming back to my own issue of wanting to be liked. I absolutely love saying yes to everything because I don’t want to let anyone down, but I love that this is a great tool to think. No, like you have to have the confidence in your no, and that’s the only, you’re going to be able to actually say that.

Rick Clemons:

I tried, I tried to say no to this podcast with you for weeks. And finally, I just had to give up. I had the confidence to finally say, yes, I’m going to do this, Jenn, if you will promise to leave me alone. But, no, I love that you, I love that you pulled that together because there is something interesting about giving yourself full permission to, without apologies, say no to something. It’s freeing, especially as a leader. You are going to come up against some things as a leader that you’re going to have to say no to. And it’s probably going to test you the most. But if you say no, without apologies, in a really healthy, strong way, you will grow so much as a leader.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And I think it also just like, I would add to that. If you follow the six C’s to becoming an unapologetic leader, I feel like you’re also going to be able to lead with more openness and transparency because you have done the work. You’ve got data to pull from. You have maybe points of view or considerations of why you can’t do something. So instead of even just saying to your employee, no. You can at least give a little bit more of an explanation, which is what people want because they just want to be heard. And so I love that too, that that comes out of this as, by giving yourself that framework. You’re then just getting more information that not only boosts your confidence, but also it can help you connect more with others that they don’t think it was some passive yes or no. Or, you know, you’re not transparent.

Advice for Aspiring Unapologetic Leaders

Jenn DeWall:

Rick, what would be, I want to ask two final questions, which is the thing would be what would be a final consideration that you would want to say to maybe a leader that is really struggling to show up apologetically or unapologetically? Like what would be one small piece of advice for them as they’re thinking about adopting these six C’s and then second, how can people get in touch with you?

Rick Clemons:

So this is the backbone of any time I have the opportunity to do something like this. And thank you, Jenn, for having me. It’s the backbone of my whole philosophy around unapologetic living. It’s the truth of who you are, is far more powerful than the false truth you’re pretending to be. So show people the truth of who you are as a leader. It will never fail you. It will never fail you. You may fail because somebody may not like the truth of who you are as a leader, but be grateful for that because that means you’re not supposed to be where you’re at. And the more I have learned to live that, embrace that in my own life, from everything, from who I am and coming out of the closet and starting a business and, and making decisions about where I was going with my business, the more truthful I was about who I was and who I was not going to pretend to be, the more successful I become. And that’s a really important piece of my whole puzzle of living that truth.

And as far as where you can find me, I hang out in Jenn’s closet in her house when she lets me out of it to come out, to play, so to speak. But RickClemons.com is my website, C L E M O N S. And I’d love to talk to anybody. Who’s like, okay, I’m really struggling with this. Yes. You’re going to land on my website, and it’s going to say it’s only for men. I’m not misogynistic. It’s just that’s where I concentrate my work. I love women. I love working with anybody. As long as you’re going to do the work, don’t come, don’t come calling on me. If you’re not going to do the work, because you can kind of tell I’m kind of a sassy guy. So I call you on the carpet.

Jenn DeWall:

I love you as my coach. And Rick, you just made me tear up, though, just reminding people because, at the end of the day, I know that this is a leadership podcast, but we do have a small amount of time here. And just reminding ourselves that we deserve to show up unapologetically as who we are. To be who you want. Not everyone’s going to love it, and that’s okay, but you always need to stand up and be you and I just get emotional because I think everyone, we always need that reminder to live our dash, to live the best life, to whatever you want to call it. So I just appreciate that. So they can head on over to I’ll stop crying now- which I’m sure some people are used to my emotional way, but if you want to connect with Rick, you can contact him. He’s an author. You can check out his book. It will help you live and be bolder in your life. He’s a trainer. He’s a coach. He’s my coach for speaking, which I love so much. Rick, thank you so much for sharing your gift with the world. Thank you for being you, and thank you for showing us how to show up unapologetically.

Rick Clemons:

You bet. Thanks, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

I hope you enjoyed this conversation between Rick and me. It’s a very important topic that many leaders struggle with today, how we can lead unapologetically. If you want to connect with Rick, you can head on over to his website. There you can book him for speaking and coaching, and you can also find his book at RickClemons.com. In addition, if you know someone that could benefit from hearing the message of leading unapologetically, don’t forget to share this podcast with them. And of course, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service podcasts. Aren’t the only thing that Crestcom does. If you want to connect with us, we offer complimentary two-hour leadership workshops where we can come into your team, virtual-live, or in-person to help you solve today’s leadership challenges.

 

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Full Transcript Below

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with Dr. Romie Mushtaq, and here’s what we talked about. Or maybe a little teaser. Do you have trouble focusing on your to-do list? Are thoughts are racing through your mind when you try to fall asleep? I know mine do! Have the usual stress management techniques stopped working for you? These are all signs that you have a Busy Brain. Dr. Romie, Mushtaq is here with the cure for your Busy Brain called Brain Shift. Dr. Romie is a triple board-certified physician award-winning speaker and national media expert. She mixes her unique authority in neurology, integrative medicine, and mindfulness to transform cultures in teams. Dr. Romie currently serves as chief wellness officer at evolution hospitality. Where she has scaled a mindfulness and wellness program for over 7,000 employees, these days, her most underutilized pre-pandemic talent is running through airports and high heels. Let’s get ready to Brain Shift with The Leadership Habit community.

Meet Dr. Romie

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I am so thrilled to sit down with Dr. Romie. Mushtaq. I know you just heard that bio, and you’re likely thinking, wow. She is going to have some powerful things to say, Dr. Romie. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. We are so grateful to have you.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Jenn. Thank you. It’s great to be here and meet all your leaders through their earbuds.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. My first question, you know, cause I know that you’re in a much different place. Our audience likely can hear that in the bio, you dedicated your entire youth to becoming a doctor, and then you left medicine. Why did you make that pivot?

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Oh wow. So, you know, I was raised with this one success mantra. I am a daughter of immigrants, and English is my second language, and I’m a product, a proud product of the public school system in a small town in Illinois. And my parents had one mantra for me growing up, we have one daughter, and you will become a doctor. And a, you know, I’m old enough to remember cassette tapes and eight tracks. And so in those days, I was a chatty little girl and always curious. And so when I think my mom needed a pause from my chatter and endless questions and curiosity, she would send me to go read the encyclopedia and reward me when I would come back and tell her what I learned— with chocolate. So that was my entire youth. Always curious, always reading, and you fast forward. And I enjoyed every moment of medical school and had this predilection for neuroscience and neurology. And remember, this was in the 1990s before talking neuroscience and neuropsychology was sexy. I was kind of more the odd bird out. And I entered neurology at a time when less than 5% of brain doctors in the United States were women.

So I, you know, I think as a budding leader, as a researcher, and as a doctor, I was challenged at every, I think, area of my career to stay calm and stay focused. And I knew, okay, keep your head down, keep your heels high and stay laser-focused. But the truth of the matter was, I’ll be honest, I’m a brain doctor, and I didn’t know how to manage my own stress. Here I was like working 80 to 120 hour work weeks between seeing patients getting called into the emergency room and my free time doing research, teaching medical students. And I started to have chest pain. And you know, initially, what does every doctor tell you? I was in my young thirties at the time. They’re like, Oh honey, you’re like every other type, a success-driven doctor that’s coming in here. Junior faculty, you’re stressed, you have acid reflux. You know, you need to stop the chocolate,  try antacids, and try probiotics. And I’m just like, Oh good Lord. So I’m listening. I was a good patient. It didn’t work. So I just stopped the antacids and restarted the chocolate. Jenn, I ain’t gonna lie.

Jenn DeWall:

You didn’t follow the doctor’s orders?!

Burnout in the Pandemic and Beyond

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

I tried and didn’t work, and there was something deeper going on. And I think opening up because we are recording this during a global pandemic, and I work with teams now virtually all over the world. There’s this phenomenon. I can sometimes even see it on a virtual call. Like we’re having, it’s like the lights are on and nobody’s home. If you looked at me, that bubbly chatty Romie had disappeared, you know, back then, they didn’t have a term for burnout. Basically, it was male colleagues kind of seeing that I was getting sick, not knowing what was going on thinking, Oh, this is what happens when you let a woman into the Academy, right?

And it turns out it wasn’t just acid reflux. I was so sleep-deprived and stressed and on this burn and churn cycle, right? Burn through the day, keep churning. And I was burning myself out, and it turns out I have achalasia, a rare medical disorder, but my stress was so bad that it kind of fast-forwarded and made the disease so bad that by the time they properly diagnosed what I had, I had precancerous lesions. And about 11 years ago, I went through life-saving surgery. And it was at that time, remember cassette tapes that I remember going home to my small town in Illinois, where I grew up, and my parents and my elders and our community and our in our family were like, you know what happened to that little Romie. She used to laugh and be happy all the time. I don’t even recognize you anymore.

And I think that was my aha moment. And I can’t remember— it was some auntie— hands, me, a guided meditation cassette tape. And I’m like, okay, this is whack, y’all. Now you need to remember; this is before there were meditation apps that were ubiquitous and yoga studios everywhere. Like no everybody’s favorite medical school. Youtube was not online. Like none of that existed. And this is weird for a very analytical brain doctor. And I found my path to meditation, and here was the thing my post-operative chest pain started to get better. I didn’t need all those toxic pain meds, but more importantly, I started to kind of lift up out of that feeling of overwhelm and gloom and darkness. And I knew there was something to this, Jenn and I thought this was just healing for me. I started to travel the world because the cassette tapes weren’t cutting it.

I was reading books. They didn’t quite make sense. And I ended up traveling to Eastern Asia, South Asia, South America to work with these mindfulness teachers, these meditation teachers, these healers, to learn from them. And somewhere along in those few years in the journey, that aha moment hits like, Oh my gosh, you’re supposed to bring this back to your brain and mental health patients. Like there is a different way to heal. You bring Eastern and Western medicine together. So in 2013, I went back and studied even more and got my board certification in integrative medicine, which is the science of wellness. And I started to see patients, probably like everybody listening to this podcast. They get to me at that last stage of burnout when they’ve been to every doctor, and they feel like nothing else can be done. And we’re going to talk about it. They’re in that Busy Brain state. And I thought like, I can either see patients one-on-one like a traditional doctor, but I’m not going to be able to scale this mission. And I had this boneheaded idea, a doctor without an MBA saying— I’m going to start a business. And I’m going to knock on corporate America’s door and say, Hey, y’all, you’re missing the point. You need to be thinking about the brain and mental health of your employees.

And Jenn, you have to know— like before the pandemic— this was insane. I have spoken at some of the biggest conferences globally, and C-suite executives are scratching their heads every time. Like what? We have a brain doctor here talking about stress and mindfulness. And now look at this here we are, in a pandemic, and the conversations are finally happening that I was personally facing 10, 11 years ago. And so that is my humble journey and why this mission is so personal to me.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. Your journey is an incredible one. I love that you, you know, really opened the door for other females in medicine to practice neurology. That is yes, absolutely. I want to acknowledge that. Yeah. And that’s so inspiring. And I know there’s someone listening, but also because I think there was a period of time. I, it is really interesting now to hear mental health be a phrase at work when so long, it was never, it was very separate. It was, you keep your personal life or whatever is going on out there. We don’t want it here. So I love that you even acknowledge it, that when you were experiencing burnout, that was something that, you know, no one else really observed. And I’m curious, what did, what was it called then? It was just like, Oh, you’re tired?

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

I felt like I felt so alone, Jenn. And I felt like I was the only one going through it, and there wasn’t a name for it. It was basically like she can’t cut it. And the sad thing is now is I meet leaders who are in similar toxic environments. And the one common denominator of this global pandemic is that it has made every leader face their own health, their own mortality. And to think about how do I keep my employees healthy, both physically and mentally. And that’s where we are. So yeah, back then, there wasn’t a name for it. Now, you know, maybe five years ago, when I gave my Ted talk, the headline started to erupt about the physician burnout crisis, the burnout crisis, and outside of healthcare, yet we weren’t really talking about solutions. And that’s where I wanted to bring my, you know, over 20 years of authority now in neurology, integrative medicine, and mindfulness together and say, how do you create programs where we can create impact in the workplace and why it’s so important in the workplace?

Because before the pandemic, Jenn, we knew in here in the United States, I know we have a global audience, but in the US, the Center for Disease Control was saying 90% of all outpatient visits are due to stress. So, people who are going to the doctor going to their chiropractor, it’s a stress-related illness, just like you heard mine was. And, and the number one cause before the economic downturn was our jobs, our jobs were literally killing us, and nobody was doing anything about it. I don’t want to say nobody. I was working with a few cutting-edge companies that got it right away and, you know, had me in as a consultant. And we’ll talk about that in a second. But for the most part, like you said, you know, this was something you quietly went to HR, and God forbid, you got sick, and you went on family medical leave. There was just a lot of whispering in the office. Right. and so I’m really thankful for how far we’ve come and that we can have these crucial conversations and more openness and honesty to say, you know, if you don’t include wellness as a part of your culture, forget engagement, and that all is going to touch your bottom line in multiple ways, if your business, regardless of the industry

The Busy Brain and The Path to Wellness

Jenn DeWall:

You are doing such important work. I think of even in the last six to eight weeks, how many friends, students that I’ve just heard listened to their stories and experiencing burnout, even experiencing symptoms like stomach pains, or I had talked to someone about, you know, how she had gotten Bell’s Palsy from stress, and I love that you called this a crucial conversation because it’s one that I think we, we allowed ourselves to not have. We just assumed maybe it would fix itself. Maybe they would do something outside of it, but now the burden kind of does come into the workforce. And that’s part of the work that you do. You go into organizations, and I’m curious, how do you initially educate them to help them understand the importance of the work that you’re doing and why we need to have that wellness program?

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Well, thank you, Jenn, for asking that. You know, I think operations, as for many organizations, have shifted for us in the pandemic. I was traveling 150,000, 200,000 domestic US miles a year as a keynote speaker prior to this. And then companies would bring me on to largely work with our executive leadership team, with my programs to, you know you know, deal with the stress-related illnesses and help with mindful leadership. So that’s initially what I was doing. And now here came the pandemic and we carefully spent the last year now virtually working with over 120 teams. And I went back and thought a traditional neuropsychology test that’s validated, which we call the Busy Brain test, will give you a link to include your audience. And we looked at the data like what was happening now during the pandemic. And the results are shocking! Over 82% of people on average that take our tests have not only high levels of stress. We call it “brain strain” on the risk of burnout.

So that now your stress levels are so high that it’s correlating with poor memory, poor mood, and poor physical symptoms. And people just think, well, isn’t everybody stressed in the pandemic, but I’m here to say the Brain Shift protocol- what we’ve developed is the solution. And so now teams are calling us and working virtually, we typically introduce the program and talk about stress-related illness and solutions and the Busy Brain, you know, virtually just like you, and I are doing on a virtual keynote or a virtual workshop. And then we have a six to eight-week virtual live wellness program where people are going through it with me as if you just came to the doctor’s office and I’m giving you personalized attention, but it’s all happening virtually and with our robust technology platform. So that’s how, in a nutshell, we have changed operations because I can’t wait for the country’s borders to open up, office buildings, open up, you know, as you and I record this, every country where you have listeners is in various stages of lockdown, various stages of vaccination rates here in the US it’s really variable that people will go back to the office this year, or maybe a hybrid model. So we have to meet people where they are, and that’s what we’re doing. We are delivering the Brain Shift protocol virtually now.

Anxiety, Insomnia, Attention Disorder and the Busy Brain

Jenn DeWall:

Can you tell me a little bit more about the Brain Shift protocol? What, how do you help the organizations? Because I definitely want to hear more and help our audience recognize that there are solutions out there that you can start doing right now. You don’t have to wait, you know, they can be virtual. And so can you tell me a little bit more about the Brain Shift protocol?

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Yeah. The Brain Shift protocol was developed as the cure for the Busy Brain. So I’m going to back up, and can I explain the Busy Brain to you? Let me tell you, the target people I love working with Jenn are people just like you and me. We are unapologetic success-driven professionals, right? You don’t want to be told to slow down, or you’re going to run over me. And that’s true, right? What we find at Busy Brain, and my now last five years of working with teams all over the world is this phenomenon that I boldly will say after researching that neurology and psychiatry have gone wrong. Anxiety or feeling anxious, ADHD, and insomnia are not three separate diseases. They’re all the same side of the one coin. They all have the same mechanism in the brain rooted in a specific pattern of inflammation. So what does that mean? You wake up kind of like, Ooh, girl, don’t even talk to me until I get some caffeine. And I’m going to tell Dr. Romie, it was a cup of coffee, but really it was three energy drinks, right? Yes. And you’re already scrolling and trolling on your phone before you even get out of bed. Right. And then you kind of get to your workday. And you’re like, and there are all these browser windows open, my to-do list is multiplying. There’s this low-level anxiety building. So you keep caffeinating, and you really can’t focus. There’s like this multimedia world. I mean, look at you and I recording this. I’ve got three devices open right now. Like this is normal work from home life.

And so you’re in front of these screens all day and all this low-level anxiety of this, and you’re wired, and you’re tired. And you’re like, finally, when I can finally shut it down at night, I’m going to take a glass of wine or craft beer to take the edge off. I’ll fall asleep, and you go to try to fall asleep. And there is an insane marathon of conversations running in your mind, arguing with one another. And you think you’ve just done, like lost your mind. And it’s not. It’s all the same thing. And I call that the Busy Brain, and that’s not normal. And there’s a way to undo that. And instead, restore sanity, be focused, and sleep. And most of all, with a team, when we’re virtual have a sense of connection. And that’s what the Brain Shift protocol is. It gets at the root cause Jenn of your, and my Busy Brain.

So even though I’m working with hundreds of executives or employees virtually at a time, our system of the Brain Shift protocol takes you through, you know, a battery that assesses your stress. And week by week, we do these Brain Shifts that you and I can talk about in a second, that over time, these small changes result in amazing transformations in six to eight weeks. And we stop the Busy Brain. And that’s what’s been so exciting to watch. We’ve taken several teams through it. And it’s just really humbling to watch. And, you know, I, I basically call Brain Shift is the cure to like, you don’t want another next level, basic advice like, Oh, Jenn, just have some berries and breathe. Everything’s gonna be fine. Like, nobody wants to hear that. I’m guessing everybody listening to this podcast is already pretty healthy. You have a few cheat days. The last thing you need as a brain doctor, all up in here going have some salmon, Oh, deep breaths. Like we’ve been there, we’re in a pandemic. My brain is on fire. Put it out. Where’s the extinguisher? I don’t need no more berries.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s exactly it. And if you feel like you need to eat right. I’m like, okay, because I feel like you saw inside my brain. And I imagine you saw inside to other people’s experiences of that Busy Brain. And I forget the third one. So is anxiety, insomnia, and what was the third one?

ADD- attention deficit disorder or difficulty focusing. Screen-induced ADD. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s what the Busy Brain is. And that’s not normal. Most people I meet are in their late thirties, forties, fifties, mostly forties and fifties, a little older than you, Jenn. I’m aging myself. Now, like one of my elders, but you know, they think it’s just, Oh, Romie. My brain is aging. I’m not as sharp as I used to be when I was in college or graduate school. But I’m here to say, like when I follow my own advice and do the Brain Shift protocol regularly. I’m cognitively sharper today in my mid-forties than I was when I graduated medical school in my early twenties. Wow. And that is the impact. So can we talk about what a Brain Shift is?

What is a Brain Shift?

Jenn DeWall:

Yes, And can I just make one comment on that? I love what you’re sharing because it makes you feel like this is something that we can control. I know that sometimes for me, and we talked about this briefly, but like I have multiple sclerosis. So when I forget something, I’m like, okay, maybe that’s just the MS. But yet I, what I don’t take into consideration is the fact that I am overly scheduled. I’ve got way too many methods of communication I have and suffer from the Busy Brain. And so I think it’s always easy. And maybe there’s someone else listening too, that likes to attribute it to something else that maybe is beyond their control to some extent. But I love that you’re, you’re giving me power and hope in the sense that like, I can control this, so yes, let’s talk about it, but thank you for that.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Absolutely Jenn, so just in case somebody with MS is listening and they’re gonna be like, wait, Dr. Romie is Brain Shift for me? Well, maybe kinda, sorta not really. MS is a neurodegenerative disorder. And thank you for sharing. And I hold the intention that you’re on your healing path. There are other underlying root causes of inflammation that we tackle in our MS patients and integrative medicine protocols to help people be well. There’s a different pathology or something different happening in the cells in the brain when someone has MS. When we’re talking about Busy Brain, there is an entirely different system of chemicals that are just having an angry fraternity party in your brain. Yes, and so that’s what brings, but Brain Shift was this. I was like, okay, the last thing people want, I’m going to get on their nerves. Right? We said we’re not going to do berries and breathe. But I was like, what am I going to do?

A Brain Shift is a micro habit. It’s a small change you make that creates this big shift in the perspective of your mood, your memory, and your physical health. So it’s a program that builds upon itself and micro habits that are tailored for every individual. And the results are amazing. We, I serve as chief wellness officer, and we’ll talk about this at evolution hospitality. And we just took a few hundred of their top executives through the program. And it’s, it’s humbling. You know, somebody who had gained 30 pounds in the pandemic over the last year, he turned around and on the live call said, I’ve already lost 10 pounds. And the weight is dropping off, and I don’t have to give up comfort food. Other people were like, well, I was doing it. I wasn’t sure it was working. But then, all of a sudden, I was like, Oh yeah, I’m not anxious anymore.

And my spouse is now saying, Oh, you’re much more tolerable working from home, you know? And the results have been amazing. I think the most common thing is people say they’re sleeping soundly and they’re waking up feeling in control of their day, rather than letting a mobile phone control you. Yeah. And I think that has been the biggest benefit. So it’s just tiny little micro habits that we adapt to. The first part of it looks at restoration, restoring your sanity, restoring your sleep. The second part is about energy, how we’re fueling our brains and our bodies, and focusing. And then the last part is fostering a sense of connection because, gosh, we want to feel engaged and feel like a team. And I think the several teams that we’ve taken through it already said, Oh, wow. Like I have never felt so close to my team members, even though we were all sitting in our own living rooms, you know, or bedrooms doing this. And so that’s the three components you feel restored, you feel vitality or energy and a sense of connection with your team members that are on the call with you. I feel really honored to be doing this.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I feel like I want in. What are some signs? What are some signs that you would say to maybe an executive or a leader to be able to say, I think your team is very much on the verge of the brink of burnout? What are the things that you look for?

Leaders Need to Listen For The Stories

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Yeah. So when we go in to do an assessment, and I sit down and talk with leadership teams, this used to be in person, and now it’s virtually. One of the things we do is administer the Busy Brain Test. That’s for free on my website. People can go to it and take it. When they see that the majority of their employees have high-stress levels, which is above a 30, but most of them are in that brain strain burnout category already. That’s a validated neuropsychology test. You know, you have a problem. Then the second thing they tell me is, well, we’ve been giving out the EAP number, employee assistance program, which many companies in the US have some global companies as well, or we got a mindfulness app, but you know, we’ve had less than 10% engagement on it.

And then the third thing is you start hearing stories you never heard before. My biggest advice to any leader is to listen for the stories. These are the stories that someone who you barely knew in the company, or maybe you knew, and you thought they had it all pulled together like Dr. Romie walking in her stilettos underneath a white coat, all of a sudden, the stories start to come out. Hmm. I think something is wrong with me. A family member just died of COVID. I think I might be getting a divorce. I haven’t been sleeping. I am failing my children with virtual schooling. My teenager stopped talking to me. When you start hearing the stories, it’s already to the point of beyond just saying, we’re going to institute a wellness program. It’s time for a cultural movement. And I’d like to say Brain Shift is a great example. We don’t just deliver engaging programs. We are here to push a cultural movement based on wellness that tackles your cognition, which is your brainpower, your mental health, and your physical wellbeing. And we want to do it together because we want those stories to transform.

Jenn DeWall:

I appreciate that. The work that you do is more— I would say— accessible. I think I’ve been a part of, as an employee, part of many different wellness initiatives at various companies. And some, I think it worked better than others, but really none of them stuck. I feel the, you know, maybe if you got an incentive of paying for a gym membership, you were like, okay, I’m going to do that, but you didn’t necessarily go to the gym, but you had the membership or, you know, I’m trying to think of, I’ve also had the apps too, that I just, you know, never use. So I appreciate that you talk about micro habits like this. Something like, how can we start slowly? Because we know it’s easy to go back into our old ways. And I appreciate that you really focus on taking a slower pace. And I appreciate you also bringing up to all the leaders here, start to listen to your stories. Because at that point in time, if you’re missing these stories, you might not be able to assist, or you may miss an opportunity to assess someone or your organization. And therefore, you might have more burnout or turnover.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

Less engagement. I mean, you don’t want to lose employees. You know, you, you don’t want something devastating to happen because it’s no longer about your work or personal life. Jenn, for most people, isn’t it for folks that work from home, those boundaries were long ago broken, and your brain needs boundaries. My brain needs boundaries. Your brain is not a bulletin board, and you just can’t keep throwing stuff at it all day between virtual schooling, your children, all the screens open, and all the different methods of communication. You try to sneak in family time or a walk around the neighborhood. And then, all of a sudden, after dinner, if you put your kids to bed or you’re caring for elderly relatives, now you open up your screen, and you’re working until you drop from exhaustion, your brain needs boundaries. And once we put those boundaries in place with the Brain Shift protocol in your brain, everything else around you starts to shift. Your health, the health of your relationships. And most of all, like the bottom line and in a company. Like nobody wants to lose their workforce right now.

Jenn DeWall:

Right. And it’s, it’s easy, I mean, I know if I have a friend that just left the job because of burnout, it was unsustainable. And they were the same ones that went to the doctor because they noticed these symptoms of stomach pains that all came from stress, and they lost him. And then, on that same day, they also lost another person. And so that was their entire department. And both of them left for the exact same reason because they were burnt out. And now that organization is left to say. We have to quickly get someone on. And I’m sure that that onboarding experience is going to be that much more strenuous because they will have a higher expectation of this work that has been missing.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

It is. But here’s the thing is, you know, everybody is in crisis mode right now. So you’re having to replace employees. And then you’re just in that burn and churn cycle again, churning it a day out, day in until they burn out again. And you’re in that same cycle. We need to get down to the root cause of it. And that’s a Busy Brain, and nobody is immune. I mean, I’m a brain doctor and went through it. I mean, Jenn, really, nobody is immune in this pandemic, you know, from your frontline worker and our hourly wage workers, that evolution hospitality all up to the C-suite. We are all suffering in different ways, and I want to provide hope and that sense of connection again.

Busy Brain Can Affect Workers at All Levels

Jenn DeWall:

That is really important. That’s a really important piece to note. I think that sometimes we when we think about burnout, or we think about who would be the most exposed, we might incorrectly just place that burden on the people that might have more senior leadership roles. So I appreciate you also talking about that. It happens at all levels. You can’t look at it as, Oh, they have that title of VP, or they’re the COO. So they’re the ones that are justified in their burnout, and the frontline employees, well, they’re probably fine because of their stress levels. They don’t have to report to shareholders or to the board, or something like that. So I appreciate you really talking about that. This is an organizational-wide effort. This is something at every single level. It’s not just something for your higher-level C-Suite. It’s for everyone.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

It is, you know, there used to be this, never let them see you sweat mentality in academic medicine and certainly in the C-suite you leave your personal life at home. You said that at the top of the podcast, right? And that no longer exists. It’s if you’re going to be listening for the stories of your colleagues and your employees, there’s a level of vulnerability and authenticity that needs to show up and that gritting your teeth and saying everything’s just fine. No longer serves as a leader. You’re failing as a leader when you’re not showing up authentically when your brain is on fire. And you’re trying to present icy, calm, and cold, and there is a disconnect, and people can feel it from you. You’re trying to be calm and cool. But your brain’s on fire. Trust me, everybody knows. Don’t try to hide it anymore. And guess what, Jenn, it can show through the video camera too.

Jenn DeWall:

Why is it that people think you can’t? Cause I still think people are like, I’ve got it. You got it. Well, first, my comment is I love your comment, because when I was 20- 20 something, the feedback that I got is Jenn, never let them see you sweat.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

And they say that to women a lot more, right? Because we’re entering a man’s world. Never let them see you, sweat. That was the way you survive medical school and internship and residency and two fellowships now three, right? Never let them see you sweat. And that’s where mindfulness has played a role that when I can calm my mind, then I can be in tune, and being mindful, by the way, is not just throwing pixie dust on the problem. I think, remember I said, this ain’t about berries and breathing.

You know, being authentic can be like, Hey Jenn, leading right up to our interview. I was a little frazzled. There were multiple emails coming in from one of my team members, and something needed to be handled. Like that’s authentic to say, Oh, at this moment, I’m feeling frazzled and what you all didn’t get to see before we hit the record button is I showed up frazzled. Jenn was a little, we went through a mindfulness exercise that took under three minutes, and we’re both just focused and present here. Right? And so it’s okay to have moments where, Oh my God, my brain is on fire. I’m like, you know, Busy Brain Level 10 hell. You know? So we got it. We got it. And it’s okay.

The Busy Brain and Brain Shift Protocol

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you for even acknowledging that for people to say, I appreciate that you used it with the word authenticity. Like if you want to truly connect with people, be honest when you have the Busy Brain, and maybe this is a good segue into those right now that are like, I have the Busy Brain. What do I do? Please get to something to, you know, get to serenity now!

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

So here’s the number one rule. You’re talking to a brain doctor. I, Jenn, and I have labeled a bunch of symptoms. And if any of those are like, Oh my God, guilty, guilty. You’re leaning into this podcast. Or you may be in denial. Just don’t throw your phone across the room at the wall as you listen to us. That’s a symptom of a Busy Brain— anger boils up sometimes when your brain is on fire, don’t do that. Here’s my rule is we assess, we don’t guess our stress levels. So, assess, don’t guess. Guessing is going to Google and saying help. What do I do about, and you can, we all just talk about the AI algorithms of Google. Jenn, let me tell you what if, if I put in stress relief in my Google search right now, we would either end up with ads for high heel shoes or where dark chocolate is sold. What would your algorithm show? Right. Okay. The Jaguar dealership, you know, the latest, beautiful blouses on sale.

I mean, no, no, no. Google is not your friend in this situation. No offense to Google. We’ve introduced Brain Shift at Google, but you know, the idea is as assess, don’t guess your stress. So we have a free, Busy Brain test on my website. We will include the link in the show notes here for you all, where we give you the same test that we give our corporate clients. When they hire me to speak or consult with their teams, we give you a number. And then, based on that number, Jenn, I give you a recommendation of where to start, but how do you start? No, I ain’t handing you no app or no gym membership, and none of that bougie stuff that you said didn’t work anyway, right? We know what we’re giving you is these Brain Shifts to do.

And either could you give me three minutes during the daytime or 30 minutes at night? And we break down what we want you to start doing. And we give you as a gift. The first seven days of our Brain Shift protocol-free on my website, I’m committed. Right? And I want to be mindful that not everybody works in a large company that can afford to hire my team and myself. So whatever we can do to give back, we are in a pandemic. We are building out the resources as you and I do this interview.

Don’t Wear Stress like a Badge of Honor

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, I appreciate that you’re offering that to our audience, and it will be in our show notes and our bumpers. They’ll have to stay listening to the end to get the information on how to access that because I think we need it right now. I just want to hug everyone, and they may not realize, you know, I think again, what would you say to someone that might be not able to label it? I guess what advice do you have for people that might be—not blissfully unaware, they’re not blissfully unaware— but the people that have a hard time sensing it? To be able to say like, I don’t know. This is just the way the world’s supposed to be. This is just what busy work is.

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

And I would just say this, Jenn, my brothers, and my sisters, I get it. I used to wear it as a badge of honor too, I thought this is the way the world works, you know, succeed at all costs, but there is a way to come off that stress and success cycle. And it’s not a badge of honor to where your stress, but I would almost say a, you know, a dishonor to your brainpower, to your mood, to your body, to your relationships. And it’s okay. Like you’re not alone.

I, for me, Jenn, I think most of it is, is that the intelligent, success-driven professionals I work with just have that mentality of power-through. I’m taking care of my family. I’m taking care of hundreds of thousands of employees. Like I don’t get to stop and give my brain a break. And I’m here to offer you a solution. I think most of it, having been there myself, it’s a lonely feeling. And now, on top of it, we’re in a pandemic where people are physically distanced and socially isolated, and that adds another level to it. And so my message to you is I’ve been there personally, and you’re not alone. And if any of the symptoms I said to resonate with you, or you think you see it in your team, reach out, like I want to be of service. I didn’t make it out of that eight-and-a-half-hour surgery with the cardiothoracic surgery team at the University of Washington, Seattle, not to come and be of service and help other people in need. And if you can hear it from a triple board-certified doctor who serves as the chief wellness officer now, as none of us are immune to a Busy Brain. And there is hope.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Dr. Rami, thank you so much for just joining us on the podcast. And thank you for also leaving us with a message of hope that you know. What I took away from your closing message is that you’re not alone, and you don’t have to struggle alone either, that there is hope that you can live life differently. You do not have to wear stress as a badge of honor, and there are options. And we’re going to give you one of the links to be able to get started. But I just appreciate the message of hope because if I think of where I was two weeks ago, I needed that I needed to hear, and I still am coming down from a massive burnout thing. And I need to hear hope because I think it’s hard to feel like you can even start to manage it, and you give an intentional offering in a way that we can develop micro habits to make this a sustainable behavior change. Dr. Romie, thank you so much for being on the show!

Dr. Romie Mushtaq:

It’s an honor to be here, and everybody, let’s start to Brain Shift. We can get through this together.

Jenn DeWall:

I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode with Dr. Romie. It was so for me. Just great to hear that there are solutions out there solutions that can help us manage burnout. And as she said many times throughout the podcast, you can get her Busy Brain test for free. All you to do is go to Dr.Romie.Com\test, or you can find the link in our show notes. If you enjoy today’s podcast, or if you know someone that could benefit from hearing this message, maybe they’re struggling from burnout, or they have an increase in anxiety or insomnia. These all could be things that maybe you could help a friend with just by sharing this podcast. And of course, if you enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Until next time.

 

The post Managing Your Busy Brain with Chief Wellness Officer, Dr. Romie Mushtaq, MD, ABIHM appeared first on Crestcom International.

Get to Know the Featured Speakers for Day 2 of Crestcom’s Upcoming Virtual Leadership Summit! https://crestcom.com/blog/webinars/connected-compassion-culture-courage/

Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone! It’s Jenn DeWall. And if you’re tuning in with us each week, we know that you’ve invested in yourself and furthering your leadership journey. At Crestcom, we believe great leaders aren’t born, they’re made! They turn skill into habit and habit into instinct. Continue your growth journey and learn to make leadership instinctual by joining us for a complimentary Leadership Summit around the theme: Connected. Connected is a two-day virtual leadership event where we’ll discuss what it means to be connected, whether that’s creating meaningful connections with customers, building connected teams and inclusive cultures, having the courage to innovate, leading with compassion, or becoming more authentic in our professional and personal relationships. We have a packed lineup of speakers ready to help you build authentic and strong connections. Save your seat now and get connected with like-minded individuals on April 28th and April 29th. That’s this week from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM Eastern, you can register at Crestcom.com.

Now on today’s episode, it’s a mashup— you’re going to hear from three of the speakers that will be appearing on April 29th, Tamara Ghandour, Tyrone Holmes, and Nora Burns. Here’s a clip of a recent episode that I did with innovation thought leader and expert and founder of gotolaunchstreet.com, Tamara Ghandour.

 Clip From: Everyday Innovation with Tamara Ghandour

Intro:  Hi everyone, Jenn DeWall here, and on today’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sit down with author, speaker, and founder and president of Launch Street, Tamara Ghandour. Tamara shares her insight as an innovation expert on the four traps of certainty that leaders and organizations fall into that jeopardize innovation efforts. I’ve found a lot of value in Tamara’s episode and I hope that you do too.

Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone and thank you so much for tuning in to today’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It’s Jenn DeWall and today I am so excited to introduce you to innovation thought leader, the creator of the IQE assessment,, and the president and founder of launch street Tamara Ghandour tomorrow. Thank you so much for joining us today. So it’s so great to have you. I’m- look, I just like love everything about you and I’m just was so excited for our interview.

Tamara Ghandour:  Well thank you for having me and we have so much to talk about. I’m just don’t know where to start because it’s going to be so good.

Jenn DeWall:  I know. Well, first we have to talk, we have to go to the basics because I have gotten to know a lot about you and what you do, but could you just tell us a little bit about what you do, what Launch Street is and how you play in the innovation space for those that may not have heard of you yet?

Tamara Ghandour:  Yeah. I love how you said that. Play in the innovation space too. So my company— Launch Street. What we do is help individuals and teams gain a competitive advantage through the power of innovation and what we really do as the human side of innovation. We, we’d like to think of it as we unlock the “I” in innovation. So you can think about innovation in the sense of what’s the process you use or what’s the culture we want to create. But all of that is really built on the foundation of how do you, individuals, how do your teams, how do they innovate as humans? How do we bring that to the forefront? Because the reality is we can invest in all the processes and tools and flavor of the month technology we want. But if our people aren’t being innovative, none of that actually works anyway. So companies will work with us, really come to us because they say, Hey, we know people are our best asset. So we want to get them to be more innovative both as individuals and then as high-performing teams so that we can build a culture we’re looking for. So that’s, that’s ultimately what we do. And I have to say, Jenn, it is, it’s so rewarding because we get to see transformations, not just at the company and bottom-line level. That’s super exciting. But where it starts, which is that the people inside the organization,

Jenn DeWall:  Well and I think what’s so inspiring about what you do is you gave people the everyday person that may not be, or even think of themselves as innovative. You give them the opportunity to identify as someone that is an innovator. And I think knowing the importance of innovation, it’s so important that we give people that power. And I love that you, you take it down to that human-level or you have the eye-level because it is so essential and everyone should be innovative.

Discouraging Innovation Starts Early

Tamara Ghandour:  Well, and I think, you know, we could go and on about why innovation is so important if we want to. I mean we, a lot of us know that the times are changing. The competitive landscape is fiercer than ever before. The rate of change is faster than ever.

The pressures are bigger. Like all that is true. But at the end of the day to, to win in this marketplace, the company has to be innovative across all the departments, right? All the people. And that means not just the cool people, but it means all of us. And I love the way you said that. We call them everyday innovators because that’s what we all are. We’re all innovators in some way. And I think for a lot of us, we just trained ourselves out of it over time. In fact. So there was a super cool study that I found that, uh, it’s so fascinating.

So in schools with teachers, they asked them to rank what are the most important skills for your students. And of course, creativity was at the top. Then they asked them to rank their students on who, which ones were the most creative. Then they asked them to rank how much they like those students. And sure enough, the T, the kids that were ranked highest, and creativity were ranked lowest in terms of teachers liking them. And don’t get me wrong, this is not about teachers being bad. If 30 kids, 35 kids in a classroom, they’re just trying to like manage to the test these days. That’s a system issue, which we can talk about another time. But what was fascinating to me is it’s because when you’re being innovative as a kid, you’re being disruptive. You’re not following the rules. You are thinking differently. You require different learning styles. So at a very early age, most of us are taught to fit within that little box and to not be innovative.

There’s consequences for being innovative. Yet it’s our greatest competitive advantage. So over years, and I hear it all the time. People go, Tamara, you know, Jenn’s innovative, you know, with her cool outfits and stuff, but not me. Like I’m not the innovative one. I’m just in engineering and I just do my job. But it’s because we’ve been trained over time to think that. But it’s actually all our research has actually shown that that’s not true at all. We all have it and it’s our greatest competitive advantage, not just for performing at our peak. So that’s one part of it, but also for having a stronger voice in the world because when we innovate, that’s how we actually contribute.

Jenn DeWall: In our next clip Tyrone Holmes will talk about our role as leaders in diversity and inclusion.

 Clip From: Diversity and Inclusion with Dr. Tyrone Holmes

 Intro: Thanks for listening to The Leadership Habit Podcast. This week, our host Jenn DeWall talks to Dr. Tyrone Holmes. Dr. Holmes is a professional speaker consultant and author of making diversity, a competitive advantage. Enjoy this great conversation about being aware of unconscious bias and leadership and how to make diversity a competitive advantage in your organization.

Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone. it is Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to interview Dr. Tyrone Holmes, Tyrone, thank you so much for joining us today on the leadership habit. We are so happy to have you. It

Dr. Tyrone Holmes:  Is my great pleasure. Thank you for having me.

What is Diversity and Inclusion?

Jenn DeWall:  So today we’re going to, we’re going to talk about the topic of diversity and inclusion, right? This is something that I think we see more and more in the news. We know that it’s an area of importance, but for those people that may not be familiar with diversity and inclusion, they may be outside of our space of where we live in play. How do you describe what diversity and inclusion is, Tyrone?

Dr. Tyrone Holmes:  That’s a great question. And if you ask different quote, unquote diversity, experts, they might give you some different answers, but I want to focus on one. That’s grounded in our ability to connect with each other as human beings. And when I think of diversity, I think of it on a Broadway. I think of the ways that we can be different and we can be different in a lot of ways. We could be different based on a position we hold in an organization, we can be different based on our hierarchy in that organization. We can be different based on our race. We could be different based on our gender. We can be different based on our age. We can be different based on our socioeconomic status. We can be different based on our physical appearance or physical characteristics. We can be different based on physical abilities or disabilities.

And when I think about diversity, I think about creating opportunities for people, with those differences to come together in ways that will allow the individual and your organization to be successful and, and allow people to be effective in what it is that they’re doing. Uh, whatever it may be that they’re doing in their jobs. And so I tend to think of diversity inclusion as steps that we take that create opportunities for people who are both culturally similar, as well as those who are culturally different, to connect with one another, to build powerful relationships, to build powerful connections, to engage each other in ways that will be of benefit to both the people, as well as the organization, and to do anything we can to create the situation and circumstances that will allow that to happen.

Jenn DeWall:  That’s I love the purpose of diversity and inclusion to connect, to unite people into have them come together, to be able to maybe seek, to understand, seek, to learn, seek, to connect, and just see each other, despite our differences. Why do diversity and inclusion matter for an organization? Why does it matter to have diversity? I know that that sounds like probably a silly question that seems obvious, but why does it matter?

Diversity is a Competitive Advantage

Dr. Tyrone Holmes:  The first thing I would say is that diversity isn’t necessarily a goal, but it’s there already in most organizations, particularly if you think about diversity in a broad way, looking at some of the dimensions that I mentioned a moment ago, the reality is that we have diverse organizations. We have organizations that are, have different genders and have people of different sexual orientations that have people of different races and ethnicities and religions and political affiliations and things of that nature. And so we’re already diverse. The potential problem is we don’t always engage each other as effectively as possible. We don’t always connect as effectively as possible. We don’t always interact as effectively as possible. And diversity and inclusion become important for at least one reason that being that we need to create the opportunities that people or we need to create opportunities for people to engage each other and to interact with each other and to connect with each other and to operate effectively in teams and workgroups in ways that allow them to be successful in ways that allow them to do their work efficiently, to do it effectively, to allow teams to work together for suddenly and effectively.

And when we do that, when we facilitate the circumstances that allow that diversity, that is always already inherent in our organization to come together effectively, the organization is going to function more effectively. It’s going to, I’m going to operate, uh, with a higher level of efficiency and productivity. And so there are a number of reasons that, that we could talk about in terms of why diversity inclusion and why do we have a focus on it. But I really like to emphasize because we’re already diverse and because we need to make sure we utilize that diversity in ways that are going to be a benefit and that we get a competitive advantage out of that diversity that we already have, that’s inherent to our organizations

Jenn DeWall:  In our final clip, Nora Burns shares with us how to overcome bias in the hiring process.

Clip From: How to Overcome Bias in the Hiring Process with Leadership Expert, Nora Burns

 Jenn DeWall:  On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with Nora Burns. And let me just tell you a little bit about why this is going to be such a great episode, because we’re going to be talking about bias and hiring, but here’s why you need to listen to Nora. Think about it. What would you learn about leadership and workplace culture? If you step onto the front lines and mop the floors, stock the shelves, or made the deliveries. Nora Burns a leading expert in leadership and workplace culture did just that. And as a Fortune 200 Executive, Nora Burns witnessed the phenomenon of disconnection between the boardroom and the break room and its cost to the organizations. She became obsessed with understanding this disconnect in bridging the gap between titled and informal leaders while remaining in touch with all levels of the organization. In the years, she invested in analyzing leaders and working as the undercover employee for big brands, Nora uncovered some truly remarkable stories and enjoy as she shares with us, multiple examples and stories of how we can un-bias our hiring process.

Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone. It’s been a while. And this week, I am sitting down with leadership thought leader, Nora Burns, and we are talking about the ever-important topic of bias in our hiring practices. Nora, thank you so much for sitting down on Crestcom’s Leadership Habit podcast. We are so happy to have you here with us today.

Nora Burns:  Of course, I’m delighted, you know, I’m a total geek on this topic, so this might be the longest podcast. Oh no, you’ve got a hard stop. Never mind. Okay. Seven-day podcast episode.

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, we’ll just do the longest one ever. Let’s just talk a little bit about your background, what you do, because I know that you work with clients all over and you help them in a variety of capacities, but I’d rather hear you talk about it than me trying to fumble through. Because I, you know, I’m not always great in that capacity, but no worries. Just go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience. I know that you, Hey, we talked to you back, I believe. Oh my gosh, the pandemic, you know, 2020, this is your second episode.

Nora Burns:  17 years ago. I think it was about 17 years ago that we left.

Jenn DeWall:  But Nora, yeah. Tell us what you do.

Meet Nora Burns and The Leadership Experts

Nora Burns:  Yeah, so, well, my name is Nora Burns and my business name is The Leadership Experts. And I have this passion for how we lead effectively to ensure that the echos that we put out into the universe, both as leaders, as well as, as team members have a positive return. Right? So, so that’s kind of my passion. Everything I do is filmed around, focused around. How do you look from a different perspective? How do you shift your perspective to see this experience differently in order to improve it? So we’ve talked before in your previous podcast about the fact that I’m the undercover candidate and that I’ve been on over 250 job interviews, not as myself. Just looking for some things in the hiring process there to help organizations redesign theirs and I’m the undercover employee. So I worked for 15 months on the front lines of five different Fortune 500 organizations where they didn’t know that I’m an expert in leadership and workplace culture. And they saw me as the cashier and the warehouse employee and the person who cleaned the bathrooms a lot. So some of the things we’ll talk about today when we talk about bias. And the impact that bias has is informed not only by my own study, by doing a lot of reading and research, but also about my own experience during those research projects and what I saw and what I played with then and what kind of showed up. So, so that’s, that’s who I am and I’m based in Denver, Colorado.

Jenn DeWall:  So your experience, Nora, as you know, I think it really, it blows anyone else out of the water. To know that many people in leadership positions maybe have never even experienced some of the things in their organization, whether it’s the experience of frontline staff or even what their specific hiring process looks like. They may only have experienced at the time they got hired, but they don’t see the consistency as they onboard new people. So I’m excited to be able to draw from all of this information and knowledge that you have to share with our viewers. Thank you again so much for sitting down with us. So what like so hiring, I mean, we, how we even came about, like we need to do another podcast was just a really interesting conversation that you initiated just around, you know, the unconscious bias. But the question to start with then is why do people with good intentions still accidentally discriminate? Because we know that it happens. You’ve seen it happen more firsthand than I ever have. So why does it still happen? People, you know, why are we still discriminating?

Nora Burns:  Well, it’s interesting because there is the spectrum, right? So there’s the spectrum of people who are purposefully willfully, discriminating, people who are like, I absolutely acknowledge the fact that I will not hire a woman or a man or somebody who is of a different color or race, religion. There are people who will still willfully discriminate. We’re not going to talk about those today. That’s the whole, that whole bucket over here that are those people who are purposefully willfully discriminating. And then there’s the spectrum across to the people who have just stumbled into it and are accidentally discriminating because of their own bias because we all have bias. Bias on its face, right? Is not- bias is really a preference for one thing or the other. Right? I prefer the mountains to the ocean, which is why I live by the mountains. Right. Still love the ocean, but my preference is for the mountains, right? So that’s, that’s a bias that I have towards where I live. That’s not a discriminatory bias in terms of the hiring thing, but it’s a bias. So I want to make sure that when we say bias, we’re not attaching it as like the word on its own on its face is bad. Right?

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Because I think that is a misconception. I know that I’ve seen it in my space where people, you know, it can feel like a label that people just don’t want. Like, I don’t want to say that I have bias, but we all have it. We can’t get away from it.

We All Have Bias

Nora Burns:  And we all have bias. And it’s based on all of our filters, all of our own experiences and it is living in our brains. So it’s really neuroscientists who are at the leading edge of the studies on how bias impacts all of our decisions on a daily basis. But really it’s a matter of us reclaiming that decision-making control and not letting biases make the decision, but having us purposefully, willfully making the right decisions. But the people who are unwilling to acknowledge bias are the people who will most often let their biases take control. So it’s when people say, Oh no, I don’t have any bias. Like, you know, don’t attach any of the ISTs to me essentially. Right? I don’t have any bias. I am. I am always looking at everything completely clear. And what have you, and that is the most dangerous person to have as your hiring manager, because we all have bias. And we have a society that doesn’t really allow us to talk about it. We often get shamed when we talk about it, but within our organizations, we need to be able to say, I know that I have my own biases. And so I want to make sure that when I’m hiring, I’m taking that into consideration so that I’m not tilting the scales. I don’t have, you know, the fingers on the scale of one side of that. And it’s small, they’re little things. They’re little things. Our brains are incredible. Okay.

So like today I’m drinking a hot coffee. I love coffee. So I’m drinking a hot coffee. If I were interviewing you for a job while I’m drinking this hot coffee. And then in the next hour, I interview an equally qualified candidate, someone who face on the face of your resumes and your work experience and your job samples, it would be difficult to discern, which of you is actually the stronger candidate and I’m interviewing them next. And I’m finished with my coffee and I go and pour myself nice cold ice water. My bias is going to give the preference to you because I was drinking a hot beverage and I, my unconscious bias, there’s just something about her that was just warmer. It’s just really warmer than that other person.

Jenn DeWall:  Wait, what!? That is mind-blowing to think that even some, a beverage choice, which I think, you know, I know you’re talking about accidental, you know, accidental bias, but I had no idea to even think that what I would have were a beverage could potentially play into how I perceive someone in an interview.

Nora Burns:  Yeah. So now let’s add asking different questions in a different room at a different time of day, or like all of the other things that change in a shift during a hiring process. And then we’re, and then when we get to the end of the hiring process, if we haven’t used a data-driven process, standard hiring questions in a data-driven process, oftentimes hiring managers will say, I don’t know, my gut just says to go with this person. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. As soon as, as soon as you use the expression, “I don’t know why I prefer them over the other one,” bias is at work. That’s your cue. You know, there is bias at work when you say that.

Join us to hear from all these speakers at Crestcom’s Leadership Summit

Jenn DeWall:  I hope you enjoyed this Mini-sode— this mashup of these great speakers. Don’t forget to register for this event at Crestcom.com. I hope to see you on April 28th and April 29th. Again, that’s this week at Crestcom’s Leadership Summit.

 

 

 

The post Minisode: Get Connected with Tamara Ghandour, Tyrone Holmes and Nora Burns, Featured Speakers at Crestcom’s Virtual Leadership Summit appeared first on Crestcom International.