Partnering on a new Group Program – Bonus Convo No. 1
Friday, August 1, 2025 • Duration 35:58
In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I’m joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore what it really looks like to co-create a meaningful group program.
We talk about the power of true collaboration, the importance of aligned values, and the beauty of building something new together—with transparency, curiosity, and care.
If you’ve ever wondered how to design group experiences in partnership (and with integrity), this episode will both ground and inspire you.
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Speaker 0: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.
Speaker 1: hi, friends. welcome back. today, i'm kicking off a little bonus series of short episodes that fit the p of partnership. as always, if you're familiar of the show, you already know that i'm organizing the conversations here around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what kind of mandala i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven p's of humane marketing that come in the form of a mandala. and you can do that at humane.marketing forward slash one page, the number one, and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect around these seven p's for your business. so, again, this conversation really fits the p of partnership. so you've heard carrie dobson before in episode 213. and if you haven't listened to that one yet, i highly recommend it. we talk about meaningful groups and whether having a group program is a good next step for you. you can go to humane.marketing/hm213 if you haven't heard that episode yet. so carrie and i hosted a collab workshop together and really felt a strong synergy forming, so we thought we'd follow that thread, especially when i told carrie i was ready to create a new program based on the selling like we're human book called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. because just as a refresher, carrie is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. so we decided to partner on this new bro program that i will kick off with a beta group in november. and carrie will actually join the program as a co facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. and so we thought it would be fun to share how we prepare this collaboration and build this program together live here on the podcast for you to take part of the behind the scenes. and, of course, if you're intrigued about selling in 2026 and beyond, it would be amazing to have you in this beta group. i'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. not all of them will make it to social media. so, uh, it's best to be subscribed so you get notified. and of course, if you have any questions that you would like us to address, you can reach out to either me or carrie directly. so here's the recording of our first conversation.
Kerry: and our goal for this session is just to actually talk about the collaboration as a whole and kind of go through the guiding questions, um, and just kind of explore the collaborative part of it. um, and then we can kind of talk about next steps a little bit more about where we go from here. does that sound good?
Sarah: yeah. sounds great. and i think why not share this as well? i mean
Kerry: totally. right? yeah. no. i it's it's more of, like, how to contextualize it or put it in. so, yeah, it's not a yeah. so we what i did was i shared with you kind of my what i call the five guiding questions for collaboration, which are just starting questions yeah. for people who are looking to collaborate. i created it specifically for people looking to collaborate around groups, but it works for any collaboration.
Sarah: mhmm.
Kerry: so i guess what my first kind of question to you is, as you're coming into this, kind of having considered those questions, how are you feeling? what's going on? where are you at?
Sarah: yeah. i think it's just a nice idea to, you know, to have a conversation about, uh, the collaboration. and and and like we discussed when we talked last time, it's like, how do we make this a win win? that is, like, really important, um, for me so that we're both clear and that this can be very harmonious. you know, like the last thing i think we both want is some kind of injustice that we feel like, oh, this is not so just, you know, making it all clear at the beginning, i think is so key.
Kerry: yeah. yeah. i that that's for me, too, is that idea of when we do anything, we're having thoughts, we're having feelings, and yet we're not always super conscious and super clear at the beginning of a collaboration. because i know for me, i'm i'm a very positive, like, oh, i can see i can see the potential in everything. and going through this helps me to really slow it down a little bit and capture that excitement and capture what's really important to me, but also allow space and time to kind of say, like, what what am i worried about? like, what what is it that's happening that maybe i'm not fully conscious of, but it gives me that opportunity to do it?
Sarah: yes. yeah. very good.
Kerry: um, i have to
Sarah: say mature, you know, it's like, oh, we're like super mature human beings
Kerry: here. totally. and and we're acknowledging that we're human in this. right? and that that as we do this, you know, like, i the the story i make up is, you know, this is your body of work. this is a really important offer that you want to bring to your community, and there's a preciousness around that. and so, you know, inviting someone in both from the creation standpoint, but also a potential opportunity to co lead, you know, there's there's risks with that or there's perceived risks. right? and so, um, just acknowledging that that's part of what happens, i think, is yeah. super important. exactly. mhmm. very cool. so do you wanna go through each of the questions and we can just kind of share our answers?
Sarah: yeah. let's do that.
Kerry: very cool. okay. so the first one is, what is the goal of this collaboration and the experience as a whole?
Sarah: yeah. so what we why this came up is because, uh, i'm, uh, working on a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. and just wanting to take this group experience to an even deeper level. and, you know, yes, enjoying each other's company already through the collab workshop and the the podcast and just realizing we have shared values. there's things that i can learn from you. and, um, so, yeah, that's how we entered this conversation about the the collaboration. and i see what i can win. so, yes, hopefully, an even deeper experience for the the participants, uh, also for myself and just, you know, having someone else co lead. i mean, that's the that's that's fun. i mean, at this stage in life, all i want is to do good work and also have some fun.
Kerry: so, um, yeah. yeah. do good work. have some fun. i like that. i can sign up for that.
Sarah: yeah. and then we also said, well, we want to use that as a case study for you, you know, so there that's the win for you. and and just have you experience that with a group and see how that can lead to an offering for for your own business. what can you learn? what went well? what didn't go well? and then the third thing i think is really that i feel like people come and look to me for new innovative ways of doing business. right? that's kind of the brand that i created, uh, because i keep telling them question all the assumptions, uh, and i tell them we're lacking role models of the new. and so they're looking to me, uh, for being that role model, and so this collaboration feels like walking my talk about the p of partnership and and just say telling them, look. this is what we're doing. we're experimenting because it's never been done before. and so now here here's how it went.
Kerry: yeah. and i love that part. that part of it too is that, you know, we are we are walking into something that we think is a possibility. we see it as, you know, this moment in time is really calling forth that partnership piece and saying we don't have to do all of this alone, and there is a way that we can support each other and, you know, kind of do good things together. and so i, you know, i love the fact there's a part of me that's like, oh, crap. what's this gonna be like? but i love that experimentation part. and to experiment with someone else is also it's just a little safer. right? it's like, okay. you know, two heads are better than one and, you know, the ability to have the conversation as we're going through it. and i'm really looking forward to, you know, the openness that we've created around being able to share what's going on. so i'm really excited to kind of get the feedback from you as well as you're going through things because i know you're super aware of what's going on in your body and your mind and what's calling you forward. and so to get that insight, i'm really excited to kind of see what that is, and i know that there will be learning in that for me as well. great.
Sarah: yeah.
Kerry: um, i also just, um, i love the approach that you have in the book for selling like you're human. so i've i'm i don't know if i'm halfway, but i'm close to halfway through it. and as i was reading it, i was like, oh, this is this is needed right now. right? like this idea of, hey, hold on a second. it was so funny because i've been listening to a podcast on the way home my cameraman rory was. and he was talking about this, like you need to decrease the demand the supply in order to increase the price, like, all this. and then i read your book, and i'm like, no. that's not what we need to do. so it was so confirming for me to be like, yes. this is the you know, sarah's approach to selling like we're human is absolutely something that i believe in. and so to be able to have that be the center of this group is really exciting for me too.
Sarah: i think, yeah, that's a big part of your offering as well to only engage in groups where you can stand behind because otherwise, honestly, i don't think it would work that part of the right?
Kerry: yeah. it it especially the coleading, but even the other part. right? it's there is such a need for alignment because of the preciousness of people's groups and their expertise. so it's like it's a lot harder to to to hold that space with them if i wasn't believing in what they're saying or if it's, like, in direct contrast to, like, my values and that type of stuff. so a big part of my process is really having it clear what what my values are and how i like to work and then making sure that there's a good connection before we really dive into the work.
Sarah: for sure.
Kerry: yeah. very cool. okay. so then the next question is, what are you worried about?
Sarah: yeah. i sat with this question a while. i looked like really thinking, well, what is it that i'm worried about? and, like, i have, you know, i've experienced a lot of partnerships, and, yes, there's a few of them that didn't work out, but that's not what worries me. um, i think the only thing i came up with is is, like, not having enough participants to get a group together. but then i was thinking, well, then we just postpone it. then we do it another time. so, yeah, there's not, like, specific worries that i i feel like, um, you know, this is not gonna she's gonna walk all over me or, like, any any kind of, like, oh, i should be worried about my content. none of that. so right. yeah. awesome. really good.
Kerry: well, that feels good to hear. so that's that's great. the worry about the participants, i think, is always a worry, especially with groups because especially how we design them, you know, you need at least six people to really kind of have that engagement and have that connection. and so i think that's such an important worry. and part of what we'll do, i call it the plan to pivot. and what we do is before we even do prelaunch, we talk about what happens if we don't get the whatever that minimum number is and what is our plan for that so we can be working on that plan as we go. but we also create the plan of what if we get too many people because sometimes that happens too. and so having that plan in place ahead of time makes it so that some of the tension, there's still tension in launch, there always is, but some of that tension, it's like, well, we have a plan for that. we know what we're going to do. and there's some, you know, postponement is part of that, finding other people, you know, all sorts of stuff. so that'll be part of what we do too. um, i so for me, my worry is, you know, because this is still new and untested, then, you know, trying to put it together, i you know, i'm worried i'll they'll be it just won't make sense. like, at some point, we'll look up and be like, what were we you know, what was carrie thinking? and so that's part of it. right? when it's really new and fresh, i have this vision in my head. i have this imagined ideal of what this could be. but, you know, when you start putting it all together, like, maybe maybe it doesn't work.
Sarah: right. yeah. yeah. yeah. but at the same time, i think it depends if we're attached to a certain outcome, then yes, maybe the worry is justified. but if we're looking at it both as a growth experience, then then, yeah, there there is no it didn't work. no. we both learned something, and yes.
Kerry: that is the
Sarah: the outcome. yeah. yeah.
Kerry: yeah. and then the other worry i have is just, you know, you have so much experience leading a group. there's there's this voice in my, you know, the back of my mind being like, am i gonna even be helpful? she has so much experience doing this. and so that's just my own my own stuff coming up, but i just wanna acknowledge that that that that it's there because, you know, part of the work that i do is often with people who have done groups before. i find that people who have done them before kinda have a better understanding and appreciation for my perspective and what i talk about. um, but it's always a little bit there of, like, well, what if this person turns out they knew everything and didn't need me? so just putting that on the table.
Sarah: yeah. it's good to put it on the table. but, um, again, for for me, it's it's a big part of this is is walking my talk around partnership. and just because of that, uh, you know, it's worth doing. and then and then, yes, i think the at at this stage of experience, it's all about the small little adjustments. it's not gonna shift the way i do groups completely, but it's those small little things that are gonna make a huge impact. and that's that's really what i'm excited real about.
Kerry: yeah. and i i just love that you are aware of that. right? like, that that the the enhancements at this point or the up leveling or whatever the language is is they are those small tweaks. and there's these small things that make a huge difference. and so many times, those small differences aren't really recognized by the participants at like, they're not aware of it, and yet it changes their experience. yeah.
Sarah: it's kinda like subconscious. yes.
Kerry: yeah. exactly. yeah. um, so what would you say your strengths in this collaboration are?
Sarah: well, as we just said, i have certain experience with, uh, with groups. i, um, have experience, uh, with the art of hosting. uh, so i really come from a place of holding space more than just teaching. and i think that's a big strength that i have developed over the last, uh, years. so i'm comfortable with uncertainty. i'm comfortable with people's uncertainty. and and that is a big part of being able to hold space for others because i've learned to hold space for myself and then now applied us to to hold space for others. so that's, um, yeah, i think that's one of the strengths that i bring. and then the content, you know, the this idea of selling like we're human. um, i i wrote a book about it. so it's interesting because up till now, i didn't feel like, oh, there's a program in me for this. so so this is a bit new for me, but i i feel very grounded and solid because of the timing. i just feel like now the time is right. and so, yeah, that's another strength that i bring. and then this openness to collaborate. like, i have an undefined ego in in human design, and there's nothing that i feel like i you know, it's like, oh, this is mine and, like, nothing like that. and so it just feels really good to to collaborate.
Kerry: yeah. i love that. i love that so much. um, so for me, what i what i see is the the strength in this collaboration is just the level of expertise that we both bring to it. you know? there's there's so much here that we get to work with, and i'm i'm really excited about it that. and so this my strength in kind of acknowledging and, like, appreciating the expertise that we both have. um, i also think we have a really similar view of business. that's part of what our conversations, whether it was, you know, prerecording or recording or during the live session or before and after it. and so, um, i i love that we have that, you know, similar vision and similar values, and we also are really noticing that this is the time for it, as you said. like, there's something about the timing both of, like, this collaboration, but also this work and kind of doing it. and so being aware of that, um, and then obviously kind of that, the expertise that i bring around the small intimate groups, i think, is is something that's a little different that, you know, not tons of people are talking about, and yet that's where i really think the power of connection and the power of results really blossoms. and so that's that's part of what i'm bringing to the collaboration too.
Sarah: yeah. exciting. yeah.
Kerry: um, and then the next question is just, what are the obstacles you can foresee?
Sarah: i don't see any obstacles. i if there's obstacles, we'll find ways. uh, yeah. so i don't not yeah.
Kerry: yeah. the obstacles. the only obstacle that i kind of am just aware of is, like, a timing standpoint. like, are do we have enough time? which i i think we do, but that's always kind of a a piece of it. and then making sure that it doesn't take me too long to catch up on your area of expertise and how you like to run groups. i've been part of a couple of your things and reading the book, and so i'm just aware of, like, okay. i'm not worried about it. it's just that's i i'm coming into this not having spent, like, a year in your programs and knowing kinda how you do things.
Sarah: right. yeah. yeah. i can i can understand that?
Kerry: yeah. thank you. and then what was it that was appealing about this particular collaboration? we've kind of, you know, said some of that stuff too, but is there anything else that you wanna
Sarah: i think what we're doing right now is is, like, actually building it live. and so then sharing the process of this collaboration, uh, you know, on our podcasts and with vulnerability and also sharing if, you know, if then things didn't work out and we didn't, we have to postpone or whatever whatever it was. so so not just leading up to it, but then also maybe after, do a recap of what went well and and and what you're now going to do, uh, you know, with that. is it gonna lead to an offer? so so, yeah, that that is exciting. and then again, uh, we said this before, but this idea of creating different ways of of being in business and and and seeing. yeah. how, of course, right now we have this agreement that there's, you know, we are just experimenting. so maybe we can also just share with transparency that there's no money involved in this collaboration. yeah. but in the end, that is the goal. right? still to somehow get paid. and so whether that develops into a paid partnership between the two of us, uh, or if it's just something that you will then use in in your business, um, yeah, we we can continue to share how how that evolves as well.
Kerry: yeah. i love that part of it. it's like not just like the the the build up towards it, but kind of continually sharing as the process goes and as, you know, the launch happens and all that type of stuff about it. um, i i'm really excited too or the most appealing part is, um, you know, i really value your expertise and your perspective on business and selling and humane marketing, and i think it's so needed in this world right now. i know even just as a, like, a customer, like, i i'm so much more sensitive to, you know, what people are saying and how they're saying it and, you know, all that kind of stuff. so the more people in the world that have this more humane approach to it, i i find really appealing. and so to be able to play, you know, one part one tiny part of kind of having more people out there operating that way is really appealing to me. and then i also you know, we've we've talked about this too. like, there's something longer term that i feel like with you and i where there is this potential for other opportunities, other ways of supporting each other, whether that's, you know, in collaborations like this or or also just, like, being fans for each other and, like, you know, telling others about there's something about the longer term part of this that that i find really appealing to.
Sarah: yeah. exactly. to to to develop on on that. and and i think it's this human element that we so often still you know, yes, we're all busy, but that's to me, it's always an excuse. so when i do say, you know, let's partner and let's do a collab workshop, i really mean the collaboration part. right? and i think you're one of the yeah. there's about a handful of people who who really understand that part. and for others, it's still kind of like, can i get some visibility out of this yeah?
Kerry: piece? so
Sarah: yeah.
Kerry: yeah. right? and and the the invitation to collaboration doesn't always get met with collaboration. and that that's sometimes like, that's what we learn too. right? and so when you find people who are truly interested in collaboration, it's so nice because it really can be the win win win of, like, real longer term partnerships and collaborations. so, yeah, i love that part too. yay. so with all that said, um, i'm curious about kind of what what's outstanding for you? is there anything that you're kinda like, okay. i still this i still don't know or i'm holding space for the fact that we're trying to figure it out. but is there anything left unanswered or untalked about at this point for you?
Sarah: i guess i can't picture it yet. um, i mean, you when you mentioned the the co hosting, you were kind of like, well, if there's breakout rooms, you know, there's gonna be a chance for me to be in another breakout room. yeah. i'm i'm just kinda, like, wondering, well, what happens during the time that i'm actually delivering content? what's not kind of what what what i know a little bit is during, for example, our colab workshop that we did. right? um, you were on that end. you were the expert, uh, uh, you know, teaching in quotation marks. and the way i have these collab workshops is, like, yes, you are the expert, but i can then come in with questions or lived experience. and so maybe the way i kinda see it is that you're gonna play that role. and because sometimes we have groups where the people are, i don't know, too shy or or not confident enough, and they're not actually asking the questions that kind of flowed around in the room, but nobody just dares to speak up. so i would love for you to play that role. right? um, so that's one way i could see it.
Kerry: totally. so i think i think you've hit it completely like the nail on the head there. in terms of, um, i i read it once as an article where it's like the yoda role. so it's like that permission to kind of say the things that you're you you sense that are out there and happening and people are thinking, but they haven't quite either because, you know, it's new or it's like, oh, uncomfortable. so there's that part about it. where where i see it is kind of like um, as as you demonstrated, but it's like, oh, i'm there kind of representing the group essence sometimes where it's like, oh, that that didn't land or, like, that instruction didn't you know, there was questions about that or could you say that another way or that kind of thing. so it it's it's almost like i'm there as the representation of the essence of the group while you're sharing. and then, you know, there'll be other times where, you know, it might be that, hey, i'm leading them through because it's more of a reflection opportunity or celebration. and then you take on that role of you get to kind of represent the essence of the group. so there's a flow to it, and there's like a back and forth. and it it's really it's a different idea. so part of it is about really how do we, you know, share this at the beginning so people understand, well, who's this other person in the room and and why do we care? right? and so, you know, people because sometimes they're familiar with more of what i would call a producer role where it's the person who's checking in on the chat and making sure the technical stuff is there, which don't want that. no. right? like, it's like so people people are kind of you not even used to. they've seen that sometimes. and so it would just be about us kind of setting the stage in that first session in particular of, hey. this is, you know, this is carrie. this is why she's here. this is what we've done. you know? i think this helps us because people will hear it ahead of time and will be part of what people might have, you know, seen before they said yes to being part of the group. sure. but it really is just setting that context and just recognizing, like, okay. that's that's the role that i have in the room for most of it.
Sarah: yeah. it's great.
Kerry: very cool. okay. so in terms of kind of the process from here, the idea is is we're just gonna work through kind of the the typical steps that i take clients through when we're putting a group together, um, especially when it comes to a book. i i love doing groups that they're not the they're not the group they're not the book in group form. right? it's not that you take everything from the book and put it into a group. it's that you the group is like the the book is the foundation of the group, and it's you know, i've had everywhere from an author who we took one one slice of a book and made a whole group and certification from it. and then for others, it's it's a bit more of the group. right? and so what we'll be doing is going through the process of kind of saying, okay. what is this group about? and we start with, it's the vip process, but it's, you know, the vibe promise. what is the environment that we're promising we're gonna create? who's that ideal participant? who is this really for? and then what is the program promise? so what are they what are we promising they will accomplish and or experience in our time together? and so that's really where we start because once you have that vip, all your other decisions are super easy or they're at least impacted by the vip. so how long should the program be? what kind of activities should we include? you know, all that. the vip really helps us to inform the decisions we make around that. so the first session we do, that's where we'll start is is the vip process, and i always love to start that with a visualization. so, um, what i will do normally, i would give you that visualization, and i'll give it to you so you have it. but i think we do it live. i think we record it and just kinda see what happens. sounds very cool. yeah.
Sarah: yeah. for sure.
Kerry: awesome. well, i think that's it for this collaboration piece where we're we're figuring it out in the next steps, and we'll catch you next time as we jump into the vip part of the group design.
Sarah: very good. see you next time.
Speaker 2: thanks for listening. i hope you found this interesting. and, uh, yeah. i gave you a little sneak peek behind the scenes of how we're setting up this completely radically new different, uh, way of collaborating. and, um, we'll post again when we have another conversation. speak soon. be the change. don't forget.
Conversations for Change Recording
Episode 215
Friday, July 18, 2025 • Duration 13:45
In this short solo episode, I’m reflecting on our recent Conversations for Change series — the fundraiser for my upcoming book Business Like We’re Human.
Together, we explored what it truly means to bring more humanity into the way we work. From letting go of outdated success myths to reimagining business through the lens of Indigenous wisdom, natural cycles, and compassion — this episode is an invitation for heart-centered entrepreneurs to do business differently… more spacious, more honest, more human.
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Speaker 0: hello, friends. sarah here. today, i'm coming to you with a short solo episode about this beautiful journey that we've been walking together these past few weeks through the conversations for change series, the fundraiser event for my upcoming business like we're human book. it's really been one of these seasons where i'm reminded why i do this work, why i believe so deeply that business is a space for healing, for reflection, and for creating change that actually feels good in our bodies. over the past few weeks, i've been gathering with a group of change makers, people like you, to explore some of the themes from my new book, business like we're human. but more than that, we've been exploring how to live and work in a way that feels honest, kind, human. because let's be real. so much of what we've been taught about work, about success, about business, feels really outdated. it feels disconnected from who we are and from the world we want to build. these conversations for change were an invitation to imagine something different, not through hustle, not through forcing, but through slowing down, listening, and reconnecting to what matters. and it just really felt really good to put this book out there in that way, to do a completely different book launch than anything that i've ever seen out there before. so i just wanna give you a kind of a feedback or a tell the story of what happened in these conversations if you couldn't be there. so we started on june 10, and in our first conversation, we really opened the door gently. it was all about waking up because that's the first part of the business like we're human book. and we started with the big question. what does it even mean to be human today? it sounds so simple, but the more we explored the deeper it got. we talked about compassion, not as a fluffy add on, but as a way of being. and we also explored the idea of an infinite circle of care. how our humanness doesn't end at the borders of our business cards. it extends to each other, to our communities, and the planet. i also remember pamela sharing about the hidden world of trees, how they communicate through their roots and how they're all interconnected, a quiet interconnected network of care. and chris reminded us how rare compassion still is in business, how it's often overlooked, but deeply needed. and then we began to name the myths that we've inherited. the old stories that tell us our worth comes from how productive we are. that success is measured in constant growth. that busyness is a batch of honor. and then together we asked, what if that's not the only way? what if success looked softer, more connected, more meaningful. in our second session, the week after, we let ourselves dream bigger. we stepped fully into reimagining. that's the second part of the business like we're human book reimagine. we borrowed from indigenous wisdom, from the cycles of nature, from the quiet knowing that life and business don't have to be linear. we explored the fish tank analogy, how even when we try to innovate, we often stay trapped inside the same old system, just decorating the glass walls. but what if we stepped outside the tank altogether? like what i'm wanting to do with this business like we're human book, and i think what we're wanting to do as a collective right now in this paradigm shift is not just adjust and kind of fix all these broken systems, but really reimagine a completely different way of being as humans, but also of doing business. so we talked about seasonal work rhythms, governments guided by indigenous women, workplaces designed for rest, for creativity, for joy. chris shared his shift from logic to intuition, and jean spoke about exponential living and how life expands when we allow it. were you reminded each other that like trees in a forest, our businesses grow at their own pace with strong roots, with gentle stretches toward delight, and that maybe that's enough. by our third gathering, we then moved from dreaming to grounding. we explored how to recalibrate. so that's the third part of the book, recalibrate. how to actually live and work in alignment with our values. we talked about the ubuntu mindset. i am because we are. and what that means when it comes to business, to clients, to collaboration, to really sense that we are all one. we drew our ubuntu trees, weaving together family, ancestors, and the natural world, because all of it shapes how we show up. and then we explored this topic that i talk about in the business like we're human book, new business intimacy, which is this beautiful space between surface level superficial networking and deep personal friendship. so to find a new way of being in this new business intimacy. so it's not personal friendship, but it's way deeper than just superficial niceties and networking masks. and it's really where trust, alignment, and real connection can grow. that led us to reflect on authenticity, not the buzzword, but the real thing, the kind that asks us to look honestly at our own alignment, at where our business feels spacious and true. and through it all, there was this quiet, steady thread that small businesses, our businesses, really have the power to show what's possible. we don't have to wait for corporations or politicians to lead the way. we can model a more humane, more spacious, more honest way of doing business right here, right now. and that's really where i find hope. so where are we now? well, i'll be making the final edits to the business like we're human book over the summer months, and then publish it to the public in september, probably around the full moon, because, you know, natural cycles. because if there is anything this journey has reminded me, it's that business like life isn't about constant upward growth. it's about cycles, pauses, reflection, and allowing ourselves to show up again and again as fully human. and speaking of showing up, there's one more thing i've been quietly, but excitingly working on over the last few weeks. and it's not called business like we're human, but it's deeply connected. i'm creating a new program. and honestly, i never thought i'd be the person hosting a program about selling. if you've read selling like we're human, you probably remember me saying that. but here's the thing, i think sales have changed, and i have changed. i've grown into the person who now has the courage to share my point of view about selling. and as you can imagine, it's not the mainstream approach. so this new program is likely going to be called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. and it's going to be a mix of tangible, pragmatic business and sales advice, helping you clarify your offers so that people actually want to buy it, but also tapping into this new paradigm of selling. expanding on what i shared in selling like we're human. and yes, i'm really giving myself full permission to integrate the woo. we'll be weaving in human design, looking at your unique sales power through your hanging gates, and exploring who you're truly meant to sell to through the lens of your north nodes of the moon. so yes, it's gonna be different. it's gonna be soulful. it's practical. it's just very human. and if you're curious and you want a very unofficial sneak preview, you can message me either on linkedin or via email to sarah@humane.marketing. and i'll happily send you the inside scoop, which for now is just the first draft of the outline, but i'll make sure to keep you in the loop and conversation so that we really can cocreate this new paradigm of selling in 2026 and beyond. and then i have one last little celebration because together through the book fundraiser, we also raised 10% for the pond foundation. and i've purchased a carbon credit we're together, we're taking out one ton of co two out of the atmosphere, and it's a carbon credit for a bio carb project in ghana, a small but meaningful way to give back to the planet that holds us all. so truly from the heart, thank you for your contributions, for your trust and walking this path with me, for believing that business can be different. if you feel called, i would love for you to leave a book review when the time comes, or why not join us in the humane marketing circle? that's the kind of conversations we have there as well. or just simply keep holding these questions in your heart. because this work, my life's work, this remembering, this reimagining, it's not just mine, it's ours. until next time, keep being human and keep being brave. see you soon.
Leadership Lessons from Animals
Episode 207
Friday, April 11, 2025 • Duration 34:41
In this episode, I’m joined by leadership guide Lisa Foulger for a gentle yet powerful conversation about what animals can teach us about leadership and business. We explore the wisdom in slowing down, the power of presence, and how reconnecting with nature can shift the way we lead, work, and live.
From her life in Costa Rica to her insights on the Inner Development Goals, Lisa offers a refreshing, nature-inspired perspective that invites entrepreneurs to embrace a more sustainable, mindful, and humane way of doing business.
In this episode, we discussed…
What sparked Lisa’s interest in discovering leadership lessons from animals.
Why the sloth became her animal of focus—and what makes it such a powerful and unexpected teacher for leadership and business.
The cultural obsession with hustling—and how adopting a sloth-like approach can lead to more humane, sustainable business practices.
Lisa’s life in Costa Rica, and whether Costa Ricans relate to nature differently than people in more industrialized parts of the world.
The Western tendency to separate nature from work—and how we can gently bring nature back into our leadership and business practices.
The role of mindfulness and slowing down in building a business world that’s more sustainable, kind, and connected.
How Costa Rica is pioneering the application of the Inner Development Goals (IDGs) at a national level—and what that looks like in daily life and leadership.
A simple, nature-inspired step that listeners can take today to bring more wisdom and presence into how they lead.
Sarah: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.
Email Marketing with Empathy
Episode 206
Tuesday, April 1, 2025 • Duration 46:16
In this episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast, I’m joined by Bev Feldman who shares her refreshing perspective on email marketing rooted in empathy rather than manipulation.
Together we explore how conscious entrepreneurs can build authentic connections through their email communications by prioritizing consent, transparency, and genuine value. Bev reveals her ALIGN framework that transforms traditional email marketing into a trust-building process, helping you connect meaningfully with your audience without resorting to aggressive sales tactics.
Whether you’re struggling with low engagement or feeling uncomfortable with conventional marketing approaches, this conversation offers practical strategies to make your email marketing more human, ethical, and ultimately more effective.
Discover how respecting your subscribers’ agency and meeting them where they are can create stronger relationships and better business outcomes.
In our time together, we talked about:
The importance of consent in email marketing and not adding people to lists without permission
How Substack functions as both a newsletter platform and community
Best practices for email marketing with empathy, including the contrast with typical sales funnel approaches
What engagement really means in email marketing (beyond just open rates)
Using storytelling to build genuine connections through email
Common mistakes people make with email marketing tools
Finding the balance between automation and personalization in email marketing
The upcoming workshop on April 2nd and Beth’s ALIGN framework for email marketing
Speaker 0: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneckroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers. mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meet ups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. welcome back, friends. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion of the humane marketing mandala. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and are listening for the first time, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page and for the non native english native english speakers, humane is humane with an e at the end. so human and an e at the end. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. so it's a self reflective exercise and not just a seven step guide to follow. i'm talking to beth feldman today, whose values on email marketing are very much aligned with our humane movement. beth is a kit, formerly convertkit consultant and email marketing strategist at your personal tech fairy. her approach to email marketing is grounded in consent, human connection, and giving subscribers agency while also keeping things streamlined and simplified. though much of her time is spent in the digital world, bev's an an analog girl at heart, preferring reading physical books over ebooks, doing jigsaw puzzles, and meeting in person with friends and fellow business owners. in our time together, we talked about the importance of con consent in email marketing and not adding people to lists without permission, how substack functions as both a newsletter platform and community, best practices for email marketing with empathy, including the contrast with typical sales funnel approaches, what engagement really means in email marketing beyond just opening rates, using storytelling to build genuine connections through email, common mistakes people make with email marketing tools, finding the balance between automation and personalization in email. and then, uh, beth also gives us a sneak preview to the upcoming workshop on april second and shares her aligned framework for email marketing. so if after listening to this episode, you'd like to join us for the live collab workshop and work on your welcoming sequence and more, then please join us in our community with a small donation. you'll find all the details at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. it takes place on april second, five pm central european time, and that's eleven am eastern time in the us. alright. let's dive in. beth, it's good to talk to you. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. thank you, sarah. it's good to have you here. email marketing with empathy. uh, i think that's your spiel. right?
Partnering with Creativity
Season 14 · Episode 205
Thursday, March 13, 2025 • Duration 46:32
In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I’m joined by Myriam Martinez to explore the transformative power of creativity in business. We dive into how art and creative expression help us move beyond overthinking, cultivate self-trust, and create spaciousness in our work.
Myriam shares how partnering with creativity can bring more clarity, embodiment, and authenticity to both business and life. We also discuss the “Wild Woman” archetype, reframing marketing as self-expression, and the role of right-brain thinking in shaping a more humane, sustainable future.
If you’re a conscious entrepreneur looking to infuse more flow, intuition, and artistry into your business, this episode is for you!
In this episode, talked about:
How art and creativity serve as partners in self-expression and emotional well-being.
The connection between embodiment and artistic expression.
How engaging with creativity helps shift from overthinking to a more relaxed state.
The parallels between childhood creativity and freeing our thinking as adults.
The importance of spaciousness in business and how creativity fits into that.
Using artistic expression as a tool for healing, self-discovery, and business clarity.
How to reframe marketing as an expression of self rather than a task.
The “Wild Woman” archetype and its connection to creativity and self-trust.
The role of right-brain thinking in shaping a more humane, sustainable future.
Practical ways to start incorporating creativity into daily life and business.
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Speaker 0: hey, miriam. so good to hang out with you on the podcast. first time. yay. i'm
Speaker 1: so happy to be here, sarah.
Speaker 0: we made it happen, finally. yeah.
Speaker 1: yes.
Speaker 0: yeah. really looking forward to talking about partnering with creativity. that's what i called this episode. uh, it's the p of partnership. and, yeah, let's talk about partnering with creativity. i think, you know, you are the best person to dive into this topic, and we just kind of talked a little bit before hitting record it. this how much creativity and art brings us, especially in the times that we're living right now.
Attract Conscious Clients with Your Website
Season 14 · Episode 204
Thursday, February 20, 2025 • Duration 33:52
In this new episode entitled Attract Conscious Clients with Your Website, we welcome Uta Demontis, an branding and web design expert for conscious customer attraction. Uta shares invaluable insights on how to create a digital presence that resonates with discerning, values-driven clients.
From authentic storytelling techniques to essential website maintenance practices, this conversation covers practical strategies for conscious entrepreneurs looking to align their online presence with their mission.
Whether you’re refining your existing site or building from scratch, Uta’s guidance will help you craft a website that not only attracts your ideal clients but also reflects your deepest values and commitment to positive impact.
In this episode, we discussed:
What conscious consumers really look for when they land on your website and how they think differently from traditional customers
Ways to showcase your values and mission authentically online without coming across as preachy or fake
Real examples of websites that nail it with conscious consumers and what makes them so special
How to tell your impact story in a way that genuinely connects with conscious clients (and doesn’t put them to sleep)
The key info conscious consumers dig for when researching your business and how to make it easy to find
Why site speed matters more than you might think when it comes to showing you care about user experience
Essential website maintenance tasks you shouldn’t ignore if you want to keep things running smoothly
Common website mistakes that could be scaring away conscious clients (even if your business is perfect for them)
If after listening to this episode you’d love to implement then please join us in our community for this new Collab Workshop on March 5th. You can sign up for a small donation at humane.marketing/workshop
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Speaker 1: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.
Is Slow Business More Humane?
Season 14 · Episode 203
Monday, February 10, 2025 • Duration 52:04
In this new episode titled "Is Slow Business More Humane," we discover the world of slow business with Andy Mort, a Slow Business Coach, songwriter, and sound artist.
This conversation challenges the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in today's business world, offering a refreshing perspective on how entrepreneurs can incorporate spaciousness and human connection into their work.
It’s the first of a series ‘Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We’re Human topics'
So in this first episode of the series of ‘Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We’re Human topics' we discussed:
How Andy became a Slow Business Coach
The relationship between inner peace, slowness, and its impact on clients and the community.
The connection between spaciousness, innovation, and creativity in business.
The contrast between the slow approach and the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in business.
The importance of human connection in business interactions, especially in the context of sales and client relationships.
Practical first steps for entrepreneurs to incorporate more spaciousness in their life and business.
and so much more
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Is Slow Business More Humane?
1 00:00:01.830 --> 00:00:07.590 Sarah Santacroce: Andy. It's so good to see you again and have you on the humane marketing podcast welcome back.
2 00:00:07.590 --> 00:00:12.940 Andy Mort: Thank you so much. It is lovely to be with you again, Sarah. I love talking to you so.
Get Your Content Found By The Right People
Season 14 · Episode 202
Thursday, January 23, 2025 • Duration 37:11
In this episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast, we’re joined by Kelly Drewett to explore the art of getting your content found by the right people.
Kelly shares her expertise on conscious websites and sustainable SEO, unpacking how businesses can create effortless, human-centered experiences for their audience. We dive into the importance of understanding your audience, choosing the right keywords, and humanizing SEO strategies to make meaningful connections.
Tune in for an insightful conversation that blends technical know-how with a touch of humanity.
Here’s what we covered:
Conscious websites and sustainable SEO: What does this tagline mean to Kelly?
SEO as matchmaking: The role of understanding your audience when choosing the right keywords.
Humanizing SEO: Strategies for making the technical process of SEO more personal and audience-focused.
Balancing SEO and authenticity: Is there a trade-off between ranking well and staying true to your brand’s voice? How do you navigate it?
Avoiding SEO overwhelm: Practical advice for entrepreneurs to focus on what truly matters without getting lost in SEO “best practices.”
Speaker 1: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneck rocha, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.
How We Can Change The World With More Meaningful Human Conversations
Season 14 · Episode 201
Thursday, January 9, 2025 • Duration 50:08
In this episode, Tamas Hovanyecz joins us to explore how meaningful human conversations can reshape business for the better. Instead of the usual “What do you do?” we’ll dig into “Who are you?”—a subtle shift that sparks trust, vulnerability, and holistic solutions.
We’ll talk about creating the psychological safety needed for authentic dialogue and how entrepreneurs and Changemakers can hold space for deeper connection with their clients. We’ll also consider how “relational design” can help cultivate intentional spaces—online and offline—where real human exchanges lead to lasting impact.
If you’re ready to slow down and nurture conversations that truly matter, this episode is for you.
Here’s what we addressed in this episode:
How slowing down and connecting on a human level leads to more effective, holistic solutions
Shifting from “What do you do?” to “Who are you?” to foster authentic, meaningful conversations
The importance of psychological safety in building trust and honest collaboration
How small business owners can create deeper relationships with clients through dialogue and vulnerability
Designing relational spaces—both online and offline—that encourage genuine human connection
Exploring the concept of “relational design” to spark lasting change in organizations
and so much more...
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How We Can Change The World With More Meaningful Human Conversations
Sarah: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneck rocha, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.
How to Make Money Quickly & Ethically
Season 14 · Episode 200
Monday, November 25, 2024 • Duration 41:00
In this episode of Marketing Like We're Human, I sit down with Tad Hargrave to explore how heart-centered entrepreneurs can generate quick income without compromising their values. We delve into what ethical quick-revenue strategies look like, how to align speed with integrity, and ways to create urgency with care.
Through real-world examples, Tad shares practical tips for navigating tight times while balancing short-term wins with long-term trust. If you’ve ever wondered how to make money quickly and ethically, this episode will inspire and guide you with actionable insights grounded in humane marketing.
Here’s what we’ll explore together in this workshop::
What ethical quick revenue generation looks like: How can we make money quickly while staying true to our values?
Aligning speed with integrity: How can we avoid feeling manipulative when generating quick income?
Real-world examples: What ethical quick-revenue strategies have worked for others?
Approaching urgency with care: How can we create urgency without relying on high-pressure tactics?
Balancing short-term and long-term goals: How can solopreneurs prioritize immediate wins while building long-term trust?
Speaker 3: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zena croce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. we share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost fifteen years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. and finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Speaker 1: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and just a reminder that humane is with an e at the end. that's mainly for my non mother tongue english speakers. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today's episode is, as i said, around the p of promotion. and as you've seen in the title, we're talking about how to make money ethically, and quickly. and for this conversation, i've invited my colleague, tad hargrave, who is a hippie who developed a knack for marketing and then learned to be a hippie again. sound familiar, the hippie story? since two thousand and one, he has been weaving together strands of ethical marketing, waldorf school education, a history in the performing arts, local culture making, anti globalization activism, an interest in his ancestral traditional cultures, community building, and supporting local economies into his work, helping people create profitable businesses that are ethically grown while restoring the beauty of the marketplace. so here's what we explore together in this conversation. what ethical quick revenue generation can look like. how can we make money quickly while staying true to our values? isn't that an oxymoron? aligning speed with integrity. how can we avoid feeling manipulative when generating quick income? real world examples. what ethical quick revenue strategies have worked for others, approaching urgency with care. how can we create some urgency without relying on high pressure tactics? and then balancing short term and long term goals. how can solopreneurs prioritize immediate wins while building long term trust? and so much more. and then if this episode leaves you craving for more of these strategies, please join us for the live workshop on december fourth, eleven am eastern time, and you can sign up for a donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. this is a ninety minute workshop inside our community, the humane marketing circle. it'll be very hands on. we have at least two breakout rooms and a lot of conversations. so with that and no other further blah blah, let's listen to tad. Sarah: hi, Tad good to see you. it's lovely to hang out with you. Tad: you too. Sarah: so how to make money quickly and ethically, it's kind of like the and dot, dot, dot, because you're on the humane marketing podcast. right? so if i only said the first part of the sentence, people would have gone, like, i thought this was about intentional, slow building business. so, yeah. tell me. and, and ethically at the same time. Tad: yeah. well, it's interesting because this was something that came up with my clients years ago where they would just call me in a desperate situation. rent was due, big tax bill, gone through a big breakup. their partner who'd been supporting their business for years was saying, look. you really got to make this work because i i can't keep pouring money into it. and whatever the situation was or maybe it was some goal. maybe it was just a big inspiring goal. like, oh my god. i need this much money so i can do this thing, and, you know, there's a timeline on it. so people would come to me and i would feel for them. and, yeah, so much of my marketing is this slow marketing kind of organic relationship based reputation word-of-mouth, and all of that takes time. but i realized, well, there are times in my life i had to hustle. you know, i don't i don't wanna banish hustling. there's a, you know, make make hay while the sun shines, as they say. there there is a time to just you gotta crank. you gotta work really hard for a short period of time. it's not a it's no way to live a life, but it's it is a gear that's good to have. and i just realized, you know, i'd done that in my life. and at times i really needed money. once i was thinking about it was, when i was much younger, i'd want to go to a bunch of tony robbins seminars, and they were really expensive. and i didn't have the money, and i just had to make the money, and i found a way to do it. and so i thought there are some things i know that work to to generate cash flow, as as short term tactics. and so then i started gathering those, and i reached out to my colleagues. i'm like, what are the tricks? like, if somebody just needs money tomorrow or next week, what what have you got? and almost all my colleagues had some little approach that's and they're go to and the one they give to their clients. so i started to cobble these together. and and then i ran into the, the second problem, which was that i would then offer these to the to those people, and they would, not be able to implement them because they were too maxed out. they were too desperate. they were you know, you're trying to teach somebody to swim while they're drowning, and it doesn't work very well. Sarah: mhmm. Tad: and so i realized that we actually needed to create space first. we need to create some room in their life so that they would actually have the capacity to, to do this. i've opened up two threads here, but i wanna just go to this one, thread. something you said earlier about, it being how can it be ethical, but also fast? Sarah: right. Tad: and, a woman i was dating last year, she drew this out, and i thought it was just so brilliant. and we can imagine there's this two axes. yeah. there's ethical and unethical, and there's hard and easy. and so there's a quadrant here where something is, unethical and it's hard. and i just recommend everybody stay away from that quadrant. it has no redeeming qualities. Sarah: it's just like, why even bother? Tad: why even bother with unethical and hard stuff? then there's stuff that's unethical and easy. and you could say it's unethical and it brings in results fast. and this is probably a lot of what's being promised in the marketing world. right. and then there's hard and ethical. there that's a real thing. it just takes time. you gotta put in the effort. you gotta do the, building, and it works. long term, it works. so you could say it's ethical and hard, ethical slow, but there's also ethical and easy and ethical and fast. that ethical is not the enemy of fast, ethical is not the enemy of easy, and i think that's an important bond to break because people get it in their mind that ethical just inherently means slow. but, you know, even the the slow food movement the slow food movement was not the banishment of fast food ever. it was the understanding that we we have a choice, that we can choose when we're gonna eat fast. because sometimes you gotta eat fast. sometimes you don't have time for the grand feast with all your friends and the companionship that you wish you did. sometimes it's just we gotta get some food on the table and get out the door. and so that has its place too, but it's the challenge is that fast food had become so dominant, and it had utterly erased. it had it had, you know, the fast food often in modern society, it's not the opposite of slow food. it's the imposite. like, it imposes itself. it's the eclipsing of the slow food movement. it so utterly decimated that culture of slow food. and so with marketing too, this fast marketing approach didn't just show up and say, we'll just be here in the corner as one of the alternatives. it sort of swarmed the marketplace and and has worked to dismantle any of this slow marketing approach. but give if you give it a seat at the table at the feast and don't let it take over the table, if it's one of the people, at the feast, it's great. you know, it's delightful company. it's a charming fast talker and, no problem. you know, welcome, but not, not when it's running the show all the time. Sarah: yeah. i love that. and i, i really like these quadrants and this idea of, of easy, right. and, and ethical like that quadrant. another thing you talk about is this low hanging fruit. right? and to me, that really is that top, right quadrant. it's easy because it's low hanging fruit. and, and yet it's always about the, how you present it. i think because in humane marketing, while you can do air a message and, you know, use manipulative language, and it's gonna be in the unethical, quadrant. but you can share a message with empathy and kindness and just say, well, this is the solution that i have. i think it might be a good fit for you. and then it goes into the ethical quadrant. so talk to us about this low hanging fruit. like, what are some things that, maybe your peers shared or that you also discovered with your clients? what is this low hanging fruit that, you discovered? Tad: okay. so the big picture, right, low hanging fruit is this idea that on a tree, not all of the fruit is out of reach. blessedly, thank goodness, there's some fruit that's just you could just reach up and grab it. you don't even have to stretch your hand up much. there's some delicious fruit. and it's the same with our businesses. most of our businesses have there's just remember jay abraham, he would talk about just this these windfall profits that are sitting in your business. it's just right there. and most people don't ever think about it. so one, you know, example of this is you email your list with a fifth you know, forty eight hours, seventy two hours, fifty percent off and it will bring in a bunch of stuff. it'll bring in a bunch of money. there'll be a bunch of sales that come in. and that's available. you could i mean, you don't wanna do it all the time because, boy, if you do that every week, suddenly people are like, oh, the courses are actually half of what they say, or you can just wait because next month, another sale's coming. so, again, it's not something we wanna do all the time. but if you haven't done it for a while, you could do that. or even just emailing your list with one of your best products or a product you haven't mentioned for a while, because i think we assume that our clients are just really familiar with our stuff, and they they have poured over our website, and they know all of our products. but the reality is, since they joined your email list or discovered you, you may never have mentioned this product or service or offering in your emails at all. so they may actually have no idea it's there. right. and so you could just tell them. you could just say, hey, everyone. some of you may have joined, recently and not known that i have this offering. and, here it is. you know? Sarah: i think, again, it it all comes down to how we present it, because if we put up a sale and say last minute and you don't get it before it's gone and all this false urgency, then obviously it comes over as manipulative and, you know, not doesn't feel probably aligned with our values. but if we present it in a good way and like you just said, oh, i, you know, realize i haven't talked to you about this thing that i have and, you know, people really like it, then it's a completely different approach to to what we're selling. Tad: yeah. and, i mean, i think this also gets to a larger conversation of of niching and filtering, being really clear who something is for and who it's not for Sarah: mhmm. Tad: and making sure that's clear in the marketing. so it's like, hey. i've got this product. i haven't mentioned it in a while, and i wanted to share it. and, you know, when they go to the the sales page about it, it's really clear this product could be for you if this, but it's not for you if this. so you're not not very good Sarah: at that. yeah. like, most of your sales pages have that. yes. Tad: it's it's, because then people are being respected, and they can feel like, oh, this person isn't just out for the money. they're really trying to make sure that i don't buy this if it's not a fit. mhmm. and, you know, if you're gonna do one of these offers, it's often good to say why so, you know, once a year, i'll do fifty percent off on my birthday. it's just, hey. it's my birthday. this is my thanks for sticking around. here's the seventy two hour sale. or you could be very honest and you could say, look, i've got a financial goal i'm trying to reach. i'm not quite there. and so i figured my problem is your opportunity. here's here's the sale. here's the terms of it. here's how long it lasts. and that's fine. there's nothing unethical about that. i think where it gets unethical is, one, yeah, creating a scarcity where there just is none for no reason. you know? like, there's only fifty of these ebooks available. and this is what? and and now you could do there's only fifty ebooks available because you could say, look. this is my first draft of this ebook, and i want some feedback. so, i'm selling it, you know, advanced to fifty people, and the deal is the catch is i would like your honest feedback on it. what do you think so i can improve it? that's a real reason to limit it. but, when it's a contrived trumped up urgency plus, it's, yes, this language of hype. there's a lot of exclamation marks. there's a lot of all caps, a lot of underlined, and there's an implication that if you don't buy this, you will die a wretched failure. when there's that kind of shaming, in it, then, yeah, of course, this is this is no bueno. this doesn't, this doesn't work. or or worse worse, it does work. and people buy who shouldn't have bought. and then you get drama later when they ask for a refund and they get disappointment, you know that they got burned again, and i think people are so tired of being burned, but. the just because it's a fast result doesn't mean it's unethical, doesn't mean anyone's gonna get burned. as long as we've done the niching work, the the thinking it through, to make sure that only the right people would buy, then everything's golden in my mind. Sarah: yeah. and and i really like that you're highlighting that point. because, again, if you have that on the sales page already, you know, this is for you. if this is not for you, if and then maybe also bringing into the email. and then that whole transparency, why is she hosting a sale? you know, does she need, you know, to pay rent and and doesn't have enough like, just that transparency, it it really puts us at the same level, where otherwise, when it comes from this guru marketer, it always feels like, well, they're manipulating me, and so they're just talking down to me. where if i go in with transparency, then it feels like, oh, this this is just two humans talking and, you know, yes, i did develop this thing that i i think is you're really useful to you, then it's a complete different energy that that comes in. so, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. now, as you were talking in in the intro, you talked about space. and and and i was also thinking, okay, so this these quick sales probably really work well with digital products, right? courses, things like that. but not everybody has that. so coaches who just work one on one with clients, yes, they can put out a sale, but that requires that they have that kind of spaciousness. hence, you know, going back to the starting point and saying, yeah, you need to create that space first. so how do you how do you do that? or what do you see coming up as challenges for people? Tad: well, most of us are doing too much is one thing. mhmm. and most of it i i think we gotta start with the physical space. i think, you know, marie kondo has has a lot of wisdom mhmm. that if you're if you're in a panic about money i mean, whether it's inspiration or desperation, but you need money fast, it's this is so counterintuitive, but the very first thing that i think people need to do is tidy their home. you know, it it take a day and just go nuts. take out the garbages. you know? get some of those clothes you're not wearing anymore to the thrift store consignment shop. clean out your fridge, clean off all your desks, clean your room, all those things. because at the end of it, you, the environment always wins is what i found. if the environment is cluttered, your mind will be cluttered, and it makes it almost impossible to deal with any crisis that you're in. so the very first thing, you know, we we tidy our physical space and this gives us this energy, this is that we're all familiar with, when you clean your space and you get up at like three am just to look at the living room again because it looks so good. and it's hard to sleep actually after you do that because of all the energy you get back in that clutter is energy. and it's our energy being stored, externalized, and when we get rid of it, we we get the energy back. and and there's a pride because i think also sometimes when people are in a desperate situation, there's a lot of shame that comes. like, i shouldn't be here. how come i'm here again? so when we do this, we we we feel proud. we get this energy. we feel good about ourselves, and it kind of clears the decks for us to then take action. and then the second thing is there's a real need to look at other ways our we're being crowded. so some of that is in our calendar, and we just have to look through our calendar and say, okay. what's in there that i don't actually wanna do that i'm sort of half hearted about? that's a commitment i just i wish i hadn't made. and then ethically, as much as possible, we just get ourselves out of those commitments. and for a while, you know, thirty days, ninety days, you just have to clear the decks. you just have to remove anything that isn't really, isn't really a priority. and sometimes making money is a priority. sometimes it's just okay. some hospital bills came in. some unexpected expense my laptop died. i had to get a new lap whatever it is. and money just has to be a priority for a while. i mean, this is the big secret. if you wanna make more money, the number one bottom line secret is you you have to make it a priority. and i think when, you know, as ethical, humane, conscious leaning folks, it it it almost feels like a a terrible thought. how could you prioritize money? but, you know, money is a stand in for the material things often we buy. so it's like there's times where, oh, we need food. you go into the food stores, your pantry, and i don't know, an animal got in and a lot of it spoiled. well, you need food because you gotta feed your family, and there's nothing unethical about that. it's very ethical to make sure your family is well provisioned. you know, there's a, some kid with a slingshot breaks your window, and it's the middle of winter. well, nothing matters more than fixing that window because otherwise your pipes are gonna freeze. so handling the material concerns is is not separate from ethics in my mind. and, but, yeah, we need to have that space so we can focus on it. because if if we're trying to handle these kinds of crises or urgencies given the current volume of stuff that's going on in our life, we can't one of the exercise i do in the meantime is a let's see. is this so, you know, i i i have them get an elastic band. and so i got the elastic, and i said, no. i want you to stretch it as far as you can. like, stretch to the point where it's gonna break if i pull it okay. there it is. if i pull this just a bit more, it's gonna snap. and then i look at them and i say and the and most of them have one in their hand. i say, you feel that tension? that's you right now. that's you. you are about to snap. so then if on top of this, you wanna pull harder, you're just gonna break. and that does nobody any good. so the secret is, you know, we've got to kinda bring it a little closer together, give it some slack so that it can do some other work. and but that can be other things. sometimes there's, apologies we need to give. like, oh, i'm actually the the my emotional world is crowded up because i know i'm out of integrity. i need to say sorry to somebody, or we need to set a boundary with somebody. somebody's overstepping our bound you know, that can be a way we create space. it might be removing all of the apps from our phone, the social media apps, our email from our phone for a time, and setting certain boundaries around that, like, okay. i'm not taking my phone into my room when i go to bed. do i just stay up all night scrolling? that can create more space. i mean, if you took your social media off your phone or went on a social media fast, let's say for ninety days, you just put up, say, hey, everybody. i'm not responding to any social media messages for the next ninety days while i focus on handling business. most of us would free up four or five hours a day when you look at the stats and how much we're on our phones. so if if you can free up the time and space and have that physical space, it's it's an automatic game changer. and then if you can have some tactics that you know work to generate cash flow, that are sort of proven commodities, then, yeah, you can start to bring in some money, very, very quickly. Sarah: i see these two energies. one is like this crazy spinning. i need money now. super anxious. right? and it's like, oh my god. oh my god. and, unfortunately, i think the marketing messages that we might receive where we go, god, that felt really manipulative and almost shaming that comes from that kind of energy. it's like, i need more now. and, you know, yes, i probably have a full calendar already. and then i see the other grounded energy with lots of spaciousness and yeah, decluttered. right. and, and yet the understanding we do need money in this world right now. and i have already worked on my life's work. i have created things that are useful. and right now, i'm just going to focus on, you know, selling them a bit more than i usually do. because, yeah, i have this need, right now. and like you said, there was not there's nothing unethical. Tad: and we can we can be so honest about and Sarah: i think what Tad: yeah. i was gonna say we can be so honest about look. it's a really tight time. here's what's going on on our family. we need some money, and so here's a sale. the thing i would caution against, though, is there i think there's a three strikes in your out rule. i have seen this with a number of local businesses. and maybe, you know, you and people listening can identify with this, where there's a business in town. they're a cool ethical restaurant, grocery store, shop. everybody loves them. everybody loves the owner. everybody knows they're just doing the right thing, but their business sense maybe isn't the best. and so then at a certain point, they put out the call and they say, we need the community come together and support us. please come and shop. you know, we're not gonna be able to pay rent. and the community rallies, and it's one of the most beautiful things. and you see everybody showing up, and it's a real festive atmosphere, and everybody's so happy to support this business. then that's strike one. strike two. six months later, they're in the same place. and it is half or a quarter of the response. the third time, six months later, a year later this happens, it's it's crickets. mhmm. so it's this is not stuff you wanna do often. and, you know, while you're creating that space and hustling, it's really critical to also be looking at how did i end up here? what foundations were missing that delivered me to this state? now sometimes it's just life circumstance, and it's not something you need to be scared will repeat. but it could also be an indication you haven't set up your life with enough bandwidth to deal with the inevitabilities of life. right. you've got nothing in savings. you've got no extra time in your life. and i've seen this with people where, again, i think most people can probably identify somebody specifically, and it might even be, you know, yourselves listening to this. there are people in communities who sort of carry the community. they're the ones who host all the events, they're the ones who are leading the fundraisers, and they seem to take everything on their shoulders. and often, this is done, though, from a collapsed place, from a, like, my needs don't matter, but the world's needs do. and they give and they give and they give, and they eventually snap. and they snap at people, and they can end up, you know, very lonely because there's so much resentment and bitterness in them that nobody else is helping, but they actually haven't slowed down enough to allow people to help them. so it's it's so important that we're also working on the foundations. you know? i i know you have your own your model, and i've got mine around what we think those foundations are. but if those things aren't in place, boy, there's no these fast cash tactics are not the fix Sarah: no. yeah. Tad: at all. they're, they're, a stopgap. they're triage medicine, but we need to get the foundations in place. Sarah: i think what they do and, i think it's very smart of you. i think they create awareness, you know, is like, oh, you got my attention. right. it's a topic where it's like, oh, you got my attention. and then you come up, come in with the spaciousness and people are like, what? ah, okay. so this is yeah. we're working on the short term strategies while also creating the foundation for the long term strategies, which is yeah. it's brilliant. Tad: which is yeah. which is worth people thinking about in their own businesses is because i know all of us, we wanna help people, like, really solve the thing. and so often in our marketing, we're speaking to these much deeper things than people are even thinking about. one example of this that i love is a guy from the netherlands, hovart van ginkel, who's a, nonviolent communication, consultant. and he got brought into a school, and the school, the dynamic was the teachers had a very aggressive, sort of violent, not pleasant communication style. but this is the challenge. he can't go in with a nonviolent communication class to people who've never heard of nonviolent communication who don't think they're violent communicators. so instead, they did the i thought it was one of the most brilliant moves. they said, it's a workshop on how to deal with difficult parents. now in that workshop, of course, it was also revealed to them that perhaps they had their own, difficulties, you know, they had their own struggles and but they they led with something that was an actual urgent thing from the side of the client. so it's worth thinking about, is there something with your clients that maybe you've said, no. that means they're not a fit. i'm gonna turn them away because that's too urgent or it's too, surface or that's not what i wanna work with. that you know, another example of this was, another nonviolent communication, woman. she's a client now. and she's come up with a a workshop on screen time agreements that stick, i think it's called. and so for parents, i mean, do they wanna go deep, deep, deep into the depths of nonviolent communication and all this? yeah. some, but most don't. but a lot of parents are interested in screen time agreements. and then if she can say, look, this is actually one of the biggest sources of conflict, and speaking of conflict, here's some other thoughts on conflict. or bradley morris, my colleague, he did a he had a workshop where he got off eight years ago, he got off social media entirely. he was sitting up on a hill on salt spring island looking at the sunset, and his initial immediate thought was this would make a great social media post. and he just realized, oh my god. the machine has hacked my brain. yeah. i'm looking at the world through its eyes now of the algorithm. so he went home and said, celeste, his wife said, i'm getting off social media. he got off. and he so he created a webinar about this called how to market without social media. and he, put that out. i hosted him and we had, like, a thousand people sign up, but we had to get our friend's zoom account because i just couldn't handle that many people. and i said, bradley, you got to do this over and over again. but again, this was, what he wants to talk about is this partnership marketing, this long term relationship building thing, but the the thing that people are feeling Sarah: more yeah. it's a classical, sell them what they want and then give them what they need. right? that's that's the thing. and then it's yeah. we keep doing like, even myself, like, keep doing it wrong because we're like, oh, this is this genius concept. and and people are like, they don't want a concept. they just wanna solve their their immediate problem. Tad: yeah. and once and then once we have their attention with the immediate problem, we can then open the door and say, here's what that's really about. here's what's really going on. so, yeah, if you're struggling in your business and it's a recurring thing and marketing is just feeling terrible for you and business feels awful, and you're not making money, you're not getting enough clients, you might just think it's about this, but it's actually got these five or six other pieces that you're not even thinking about. and if we can get in front of them and make that case, that's great. you know? but it's to me, it connects because it's those kinds of offers more likely to get a quick response from people. you know, they're more likely to generate cash flow quickly rather than the, you know, come and learn my deep philosophy on life and business or or whatever it is. yeah. and yeah. so it's i was gonna say the key is you gotta if you sell them what they want, you actually have to deliver on that because otherwise it's a bait and switch. this is the unethical move is come to my workshop and learn fast cash tactics, and when they arrive, it's like, how couldn't you be thinking about fast cash you on ethical pieces? Sarah: so let's talk about this workshop because that was gonna be my next question. right? it's like, well, so so so because we are hosting a workshop together where you're gonna be speaking about how to make money quickly and ethically. and, yes, you'll address the space and spaciousness. but then, yeah, tell us what what else you'll cover in that workshop. Tad: we're gonna be going into ten different, tactics. ten of my i think there's thirty six that i've gathered over the years, but just due to time, i think we'll get into ten of them. and these are ten of my favorite tactics that just work, that my colleagues use, that they give to their clients, that i've used self, that i passed on to clients, and that people have generated, lots of money real quickly. so, and i'm not talking tens of thousands necessarily, but, you know, a few hundred here, a few thousand there, getting i Sarah: think it always depends on the kind of business you have and what kind of offerings you have. that's that's another ethical thing, right? it's like, well, if you're promising thousands of dollars and yet all i'm selling is, you know, ebooks, then obviously i'm not going to be able to make that kind of money. but it depends. yeah. Tad: yeah. yeah. so that's what we're going to get into is some of my favorite, my my top ten, tactics that i think, most people would take and probably just use for a lot of people, they could use it tomorrow, and it would bring in money tomorrow, or within a week or so. you know, this is not stuff that needs enormous setting up now. of course, the clearer your niche is, the clearer your point of view is, the better set up your offers are, the better these things work. but they still work, you know, in the short term anyways. Sarah: mhmm. yeah. well, i can't wait. Tad: so i'm excited too. Sarah: please, if you're listening to this as always, you know how these collab workshops work. it's, this time is tad and i. i'm hosting. tad is the one speaking. we're going into breakout rooms. it's real intimate and you get to really, you know, roll back your sleeves and and work on something. it's not just a a webinar where tad is talking for ninety minutes, but we really get into things. so and obviously from that ethical, humane point of view. so, i think it's gonna be real good. so if you're excited as well, sign up at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and we'll see on december fourth. i can't wait to continue this conversation with you, ted. thank you. amazing. Tad: wonderful. thanks for having me. Sarah: thank you. Speaker 2: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and see how you can do marketing in a ethical and humane way even to generate some quick money. we'd love to see you on december fourth for the make money quickly and ethically workshop. again, it's a ninety minute really hands on workshop inside our community. you can sign up now for a donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and otherwise, tad also has a free starter kit with many resources at marketing for hippies dot com forward slash starter dash kit. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not become a member of the humane marketing circle? you get access to these collab workshops for free, and we also meet once per month in a member meetup that is organized by our members. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. and you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two hundred. just realized that this is the two hundredth episode. so humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero zero. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, very soon, beginning of next year, you'll be also finding, business like we're human there. i'm finalizing everything right now. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.
Sarah1: welcome back, friends. i am back from two amazing weeks in egypt. if you're on my email list, you hopefully enjoyed the pictures i sent. it truly was amazing. and just in the last few days, a team of scientists from italy made a new discovery of gigantic structures underneath the giza plateau. they're using some kind of radar technology, and they found pillars as tall as the eiffel tower. imagine that. i'm just so excited about all the new discoveries we'll be making about our long lost ancestors and civilizations. to me, it it really is this passion about, yeah, what makes us human and how this all started. and and maybe it's at the border of humans and, you know, some other kind of beings. but, anyway, if we ever meet at a cafe, well, i can talk about this for hours. but back to today's conversation, which fits under the partnership. this time, we're partnering with animals, and i'm talking to community member lisa folger. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven ps of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane.marketing/ 1 page. that's the letter that's the number one and the letters page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. so a few words about lisa. a dynamic leadership coach and best selling author with over thirty five years of corporate and entrepreneurial learning and success, including twenty five pioneering years at hp, lisa folger is an international coaching federation professional certified coach and is certified in scaling up positive intelligence and among others. lisa inspires leaders to scale their mindsets, their teams, and their businesses to make a positive impact in the world. passionate about cultivating healthy mindsets, driving transformative impact, and advancing global sustainability, she leaves a lasting positive mark on people and the planet. a proud mother of three awe inspiring daughters, lisa thrives in vibrant cost costa rica where she continues to inspire others through her leadership and vision. so in this episode, we discussed what sparked lisa's interest in discovering leadership lessons from animals, why the sloth became her animal of focus, and what makes it such a powerful and unexpected teacher for leadership and business, the cultural obsession with hustling and how adopting a sloth like approach can lead to more humane, sustainable business practices. lisa's life in costa rica and whether costa ricans relate to nature differently than people in more industrialized parts of the world. the western tendency to separate nature from work and how we can gently bring nature back into our leadership and business practices, the role of mind mindfulness, how costa rica is pioneering the application of the inner development goals, idgs, at a national level, and what that looks like in daily life and leadership, and then a simple nature inspired step that listeners can take today to bring more wisdom and presence into how they lead. so without further ado, let's listen to this conversation between lisa folger and myself.
Sarah2: hey, lisa. it's good to hang out with you.
Lisa: hi, sarah. glad to be here.
Sarah2: yeah. good to have you. first time on the humane marketing podcast. so excited. we talk regularly through the humane marketing community and you've been in the program, so we know each other quite well. i feel so it's always the conversations always go deeper, when we know each other. right. so looking forward to talk about animals and leadership sessions, not sessions. and what i wanna say, lessons that we can learn from from animals. so, yeah. you hosted a session last year during our humane marketing circle expo with colleagues, rory and aslam, around this topic of what can we learn from animals for our leadership. so first, i'm curious to know how did you come up with this topic? like, why this topic? what fascinated you about this topic?
Lisa: yes. certainly. i mean, the theme was, you know, kinda learning from nature is what we challenge ourselves. what would we bring to bear? because each of us lives in a different country. we all spend a lot of time outside in nature, and we were i think the conversation initially started when aslam was looking out her window in a london tower and saw the beautiful array of swans doing all sorts of amazing positions, looking so calm, looking so conscious, looking so just reflective and contemplative. and, you know, it really caught her attention, and she's been fascinated. so she's always telling us stories about the swans. but then at one point, she said, you know what? i looked it up and really underneath the surface, the swans are pedaling furiously. i mean, it's chaotic. it's crazy. it's phrenic. and we said, wow. yet from the outside, it's so calm, so, you know, beautifully, patient. and said, what else? i mean, could we learn because we resonate with that. you know, so many times, we are frenetically moving and doing and, scurrying to be ready. and yet when it takes place, we're actually present. and just being there is all that's really needed. and so it just spurred a level of curiosity and interest, to investigate. so we each said, okay. pick a favorite animal. let's talk about what are some of the leadership lessons we can learn. and i, living in costa rica and having sloths as neighbors thought, you know, why not? like, that's like the opposite of the scurry is the very slow and methodical and patient and present sloth. and so that's what i chose. and then rory chose the elephant because it had such female leadership qualities that we all admired and all three of us being female leaders were like, wow. you know, that's fabulous. let's tap into that. so it was a really curious exploration, and it's continued. like, the year since that has gone on, we have had various conversations and in-depth contemplations on what will we do with that next. and so we're working right now on what our next expo theme will be. and it's all around being. i think we will choose some animal influences as well. one of the ones that i am playing with right now is the monkey because monkeys are also part of my neighborhood collection of beautiful nature. and i love the curiosity element of monkeys. and so one of the elements that i'm playing with. but it was, you know, a way to find a theme that we're all passionate about and, you know, have it be a bit playful and engaging. and so in the workshop, you know, we had our three animals, but we had many other people join and share their favorite animals and what lessons that they had learned from them. so i think there's a lot that we can pick up from our surroundings and our environment and nature as you well know.
Sarah2: yeah. yeah. it's so beautiful. and and it reminded me of the i i just hosted a a podcast, with the title is slow business more humane, with my friend, andy mort. and this he calls himself a slow business coach or a slow coach. and and so it just reminded me of you and the sloths. and and so it's so controversial, right, to bring slowness into business. and so it it takes well, it takes courage to say, well, actually, i do want to, you know, make it slower. and and so, yeah, i'm just curious what kind of things you shared around the sloths and and what qualities you appreciate from the sloth.
Lisa: yeah. and i'm glad you mentioned andy because i got to that part in your book, and i love the reference and the connection to the sloth, and going slower, going deeper. that's been a big, big journey of mine, especially in the last couple years. i left the corporate world eight years ago, after a twenty five year run. and now working with more small and medium businesses, i am finding that being conscious and really building the mental resilience to handle the ups and downs that are going on around us is such an important leadership skill. so from the sloth perspective, you know, they're very, very intentional. like, they usually come down from the tree once a month.
Sarah2: wow. it's amazing. once a month.
Lisa: they have to plan really, really well, and they're very slow in their pace, and they're very conscientious because they can't move very fast. they have to be very careful as they plan their moves, to avoid being, you know, attacked by predators or any other danger in the system. they have to find their food very strategically. so they're very, curious, very methodical, very patient, and they're very reflective. so all those qualities make for, handling our crazy chaotic world in a more kind, gentle, patient, and contemplative way, i would say. one of the you know, i wrote a chapter in the book, leading with self awareness last year. and one of the stories that i highlighted is that, you know, often we open doors. the chapter is called, you know, opening doors to discover me. but often we open doors and we have no idea what we're entering into. and that ability to be patient, to be present, to be calm, to be curious is such a beautiful gift to discover what opportunities lie ahead. and so i'm a big believer, in creating the spaciousness to allow that perspective to show up, and it's not so easy. like, i'm a recovering corporate a level, you know, executive for many, many, many years. it took some real life changes and choices to put that first and foremost in my perspective.
Sarah2: yeah. yeah. and it's such a big topic, right, of the business like we're human book. it's like the and i only remember one line, from your, case study when you went through the marketing like we're human program. you you said the depth was always there, but it took this program or the pausing to discover it or rediscover it. right? and so that's what that's what we do when we take when we create the spaciousness. and we, yeah, we are sloths like. we probably another thing is, like, from the outside looking in, the sloth looks like, well, it's just a lazy couch potato. but, actually, there's probably yeah. like you said, a lot of planning, a lot of deep thinking, a lot of strategizing that that goes on, that we don't see from the outside looking in.
Lisa: absolutely. and the slot has partnerships, with all sorts of other animals that support their ecosystem. and so they don't even though they seem very solo animals, they actually weave a set of strategic partnerships that help them thrive. and sometimes that's not present. like, you can't see that
Sarah2: mhmm. nobody
Lisa: else. but, yeah, there's a lot of depth to that choice. and for me, another big turning point was having a significant accident. so i had a surfing accident. or it kinda took me off the road map for three months and, you know, healing journey of one year. that process of having to slow down and start over and rebuild was, you know, tremendously insightful. it was hard. it was super, super difficult and painful and, you know, all of the, challenges that come along with injury and recovery. yet it was super profound for me to rediscover what was most valuable to me. so to reconnect with my values, it was the time when i was rebuilding my business after a big transition, and a super important gift that, you know, i can clearly see. during the process, it was, you know, challenging for sure. and now looking back, i think it was a blessing in disguise.
Sarah2: mhmm. yeah. yeah. it's just unfortunate that often our body kind of needs to give us this yeah.
Lisa: wake up call?
Sarah2: wake up call. yeah. indeed. if we don't hear it ourselves. another thing comes to mind, and you mentioned that you're living in costa rica. from the outside looking in, we have this idea of costa rica being, yeah, you know, a different culture, a kind of more outgoing culture, probably a culture that is not as money and profit and productivity driven as maybe, you know, some of our western cultures. is that the case? and has when you moved to costa rica, has something changed already just in that move for you?
Lisa: for sure. for sure. so it's a quite a different culture from the united states that i moved from seventeen years ago. so mhmm. it's, well indoctrinated in me, the pura vida lifestyle, you know, living a pure life. for sure, the culture is slower. it's more family oriented. it's, you know, be first and then do second, very opposite of the united states and the life that i had lived before i came to costa rica. you know, there's certainly challenges. the infrastructure, the bureaucracy, i mean, process and operational efficiency is not a strength in costa rica. it's a beautiful small country and the nature is spectacular and it's ever present wherever you are in the country. so yeah, that slowing down to adapt to a very different culture in a different system was, you know, a jolt to my, nervous system for sure. and, you know, it took years, but i'd probably say two or three years later, i i think i kind of wove into the groove. having children and adopting to their schedules and all of that is a great assimilation strategy for moving to a new country. so that was a great asset as well. but yeah. i mean, the things that i appreciate about the slower pace and the higher quality of life and, you know, security and just nature at your doorstep is, you know, well built into my routines. from a daily perspective, i get up and i usually go for a walk. and, you know, i can take three steps out my door and be in beautiful nature, which i appreciate. and, you know, the weather's temperate, so, you know, i can put a t shirt and shorts on and head out anytime of the year. i love that too. but one of the things that i have realized as i've, you know, kinda cultivated my career, because i have clients globally and i travel around the world, is that when i come back home, there's just like a a sigh and a deep, you know, breath that i take that i kinda take it back in, and i miss it. i truly do miss it. one of the ways, recently, just in the last year, i've started doing retreats, for women here in costa rica. i have my second one coming up in september, september twenty eighth to october third. and it's recharge. it's recharge for mindful women. and the idea is how can you pour into yourself as you pour into everybody else in all aspects of your life. because i find we women professionals, especially, extend ourselves and stretch ourselves very thin. and so, i have found on a daily basis how to recharge, but i think a lot of women struggle to do that really well. and so offering a week away to indulge in beautiful nature and feed you your soul, you know, heart, mind, and body is an excursion and experience that is a beautiful thing to offer.
Sarah2: yeah. i i when people ask me what works in marketing right now, i always say beauty, nature, you know, self care. those are the things that that people crave right now. so so yeah, if you're having something like that to offer is is amazing. and i was just thinking how similar it is with me arriving in sicily, because we have a place in sicily, and it's kind of very similar. you know? it's like it's chaotic in terms of administration and and laws and everything like that. and yet it's such a different lifestyle. like, it all it's all about, like you said, family, friends, good food. that's what matters to people there. right? and then the work come come second. and i remember now we have our own car there, but we used to have a rental car and then arriving at the airport and then having to rent the car. at the beginning, the first few times we went, i was, like, so anxious and nervous because it took them forever to set up this rental car. it was, like, an hour of paperwork and everything was in paper still. like, i'm like, come on. and then eventually i just kind of like laughed at myself. i'm like, oh, look at, look at you, the swiss. who's like, oh, you know, work, work, work. no, you have arrived. this is it. take it slow. right. and it's, yeah, it's interesting that you also can get that experience of just breathing out when you get back home and you're like, i made it home. i can be calm and relaxed now. yeah. another thing that, that i'm thinking of with in relation to costa rica is that, at the last, inner development goals, summit i was, they actually brought costa rica as an example because you guys use the inner development goals on a national level. and that's, like, that's unheard of. right? it's such a huge testimony to what matters even at the government level. so i'm just curious if you, yeah, how that's being visible in costa rica, if i if at all? like, do they talk about it?
Lisa: absolutely. there's quite a marketing campaign, the essential of costa rica and christina figueres, whom you know from all of that work around idg and just kind of how do we create a better world and how do we protect what we have. i mean, she's been very, very vocal and very visible in the country, but we have, you know, great resources for such a tiny country in the world. and the preservation of that is a utmost priority in the country. there's great focus. there's great resources. there's great knowledge and commitment to in that. so, yes, it's, you know, very important and built into the systemic structure of all of costa rica. so very
Sarah2: we talk mainly about animals, but in the business like we're human book, i just talk about nature in general and and talk about some of the ways that i've integrated nature into into my business. how you mentioned walks. is there any other ways that you even bring it into client work or or just kinda like how you, yeah, integrate nature and animals and other living beings on this planet into your work?
Lisa: no. i do. a lot of times when i am meeting with clients in quarterly workshops, we build time in nature into it. it's kind of a way to breathe. it's kind of a way to decompress. it's kind of a way to kind of go deeper from within, and it connects teams powerfully. i mean, greater creativity, greater resourcefulness, greater connection, building vulnerability amongst the team happens so much faster when you're outside than when you're in a conference room or in your, you know, office meeting room. i'm a big advocate of exercise too. and so a lot of times, with my clients on a one on one basis, we'll talk about their routines. like, how do you build movement into, your routine as a way to kind of process, as a way to feed, you know, your soul, as a way to be healthy as well. and a lot of times that involves being outside in nature. i'm a big fan of awe walks, awe. and so i spent a week with doctor doctor doctor keltner. he leads the better services science center at university of berkeley in california. and he has researched awe for, like, thirty years. he has a fascinating book called awe. he's got several books. and it's amazing how there's so many sources. he has, like, eight principles of awe, nature being one of them. but, you know, collective ever essence, like the time favorite too. yeah. i mean, it's such a beautiful thing. and so often when i do retreats with clients, that ability to be disconnected from the workspace, but yet together is that collective ever essence. it just brings out the best in people and, you know, it really fuels creativity and innovation. it's a super powerful force. and i find combining that in nature is spectacular. so
Sarah2: yeah. especially in a place where, you know, you can always go outside. so why wouldn't you? why wouldn't you use nature as a classroom? yeah.
Lisa: and it doesn't matter the weather. i mean, i i have clients in all different, atmospheres and climates and, you know, bundle up if it's cold. it doesn't matter. get outside and experience that. it's a a beautiful resource available to us at any moment.
Sarah2: mhmm. yeah. if you had to give, like, one advice from the sloths to the business owners, entrepreneurs who are listening, what would that be?
Lisa: yeah. move slower. just move slower. take more in. i love that sloths are super observant. and that's part of their kinda maintaining their, you know, lifestyle and being a survival skill. i think we as humans go too fast, and we build things in. like, busyness is a factor of success. and and i think that's part of the paradigm that you're working on in business like we're human. it's important to me too. how do you take things more slowly and actually more richly connect and generate greater impact? i mean, there's not a correlation for me on generating impact is my passion and my purpose and my work, and there's no correlation with going fast with that. it actually defeats the purpose. and so the slower you go, actually, generally, the better results you can attain. mhmm. yeah. i would say go slower, be more observant, and, you know, really focus in on what's most important.
Sarah2: yeah. and go deeper with your work as well because you're going slower. yeah.
Lisa: absolutely. so often when leaders come to me, they wanna scale their businesses super fast, and that's always the desire. and i say, okay. what have you tried before? what's worked? what hasn't worked? and i always say, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different outcome. so let's try a different trajectory. so i spend quite a bit of time with clients in teams because i work with founders and leaders and their leadership teams to kinda build that vulnerability, that deep connection, that trust so that then when they journey together, they can go further, not necessarily faster, but it often happens that it happens faster because they have a very profound, deeply connected and well aligned structure and path to journey together. but that human connection and really building the strong resilient team is always the first step. and it amazes my clients. it it continues to delight me at how powerful a leadership quality that can be to achieving whatever they set out to achieve. and often, while their initial goals are i wanna, you know, hit a bigger number, i wanna hit it sooner, i want to, contribute more financials to the book, they very quickly identify impact goals as well. like, what's the difference in the world i wanna make? and how will the success of my business make the world i live in better? and how do i contribute to that? which is, you know, so rewarding for me.
Sarah2: yeah. and you basically hold the space to help them slow down. right?
Lisa: yeah. the guide on the journey indeed. yeah. yeah.
Sarah2: it's beautiful. wow. thank you so much for for being the sloth and and being the role model as, you know, it again, i think it takes a little bit of courage to say, i don't, there's no shame in being the sloth. i want to be the sloth. i want you to understand the power of being the sloth. and, and that's exactly the role models that we were missing up till now, because, you know, look where it got us. and so, yeah, i applaud you for for being the sloth and sharing what we can learn from these, from nature around us and animals and and everything. so
Lisa: thank you, sarah.
Sarah2: please do share where people can find you. sorry.
Lisa: i was just gonna add one thing. one of the questions i always ask, and this was at the end of my chapter, is what are you courageously willing to say yes to and not know what's on the other side? mhmm. but to do that, you have to courageously say, what am i willing to quit yeah. or say no to to allow the spaciousness to kinda enter into the unknown. to your question, where you can find more information about me is my website, which is w w w dot lisa folger, f o u l g e r, dot com. yep. and i've got information on the verdesana costa rica retreat and all the different offerings i do around scaling your mindset, to scaling your leadership, to scaling your team, and ultimately scaling your business.
Sarah2: wonderful. i love how you combine scaling with such a mindfulness mindful approach and slow approach. right? because it to me, it's a perfect example of understanding what people want and then giving them what they need. and so what they want is to scale and fast and hustle. and then you're like, wait a minute. yeah. we're gonna get to what you want, but we're gonna do it in a slightly different way. so, yeah, i love that. love that. and i also look forward to the to the next session at the expo and continue our animal journey. so excited for that. thank
Lisa: you. we're excited as well. and i think we'll even expand beyond animals, into nature. but, yeah, there's a lot to explore around being and a fascinating topic to explore.
Sarah2: yeah. i'm actually just off to a trip to egypt and, you know, find out what we can learn from ancient civilizations, whether they were human or not human, but just kind of like tapping into the ancient wisdom wisdom as well. so
Lisa: i'll report back. yes. enjoy fully. that sounds fascinating.
Sarah2: thank you.
Sarah3: i hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. find out more about lisa and her work at wwwlisafolger.com. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? lisa is an active member in our community as well. find out more at humane.marketing/circle. and you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm20seven. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.
Speaker 1: yes. very much so.
Speaker 0: um, on your website, i'm gonna start with, uh, something i found on your website. you say my approach is rooted in consent, human connection, and strategies that align with your values. mhmm. tell us more about that.
Speaker 1: yeah. so and i think i think you've kind of alluded to how you've changed your marketing over the years, but i for me, it's been very similar that i think we're those of us who've been in this online business space for a while are very much have been bombarded with a lot of messaging on, quote, unquote, the right way to market our businesses. and i know for myself, i've tried a whole bunch of strategies that, you know, i did because they, quote, unquote, worked, but they didn't ever fully sit right with me. and i think a lot of times the what we hear is a very much a one size fits all approach to marketing, but what works for one business model might not work for another business model. similarly, you can have two businesses that are technically the same business model and once a strategy that works for one person will not work or for one business will not work for another for another. so that's really much about where i kind of bring in my approach that it's looking at, does something sit right with me? and if not, then maybe you should be evaluated. and think about, like, not so much does this sit right with me, but if i'm on the receiving end of this strategy, how would i feel? and if you knew know that you it wouldn't sit right with you, probably not a good strategy to use. uh, as a and then similarly or kinda not similarly, but going back going back to the other one, consent, that, you know, being here in the us, we have kind of some more lax rules around privacy and consent. and, technically, you can add people to your email list whether or not they have consented. and i think many of us have been on the receiving end of receiving emails that we did not ask for. so my approach is, you know, very much, did people ask to be on be added to your email list? it will not work with people who purchased the email list. that's just it's it's not good for a whole bunch of reasons. so it's not gonna help with your email showing up in people's inboxes if you're you adding people who didn't ask to be there. so it's just kind of this weird strategy that i think some people still use even though i really don't believe it works because people don't we're all bombarded with emails, and we don't wanna receive things that we didn't sign up for.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. it that's it it it always surprises me when i'm, you know, talking to someone, like, on linkedin, for example. and, yeah, we have a good exchange in the e in the linkedin messages. and then sure enough, like, two days later, i received their newsletter. mhmm. and i'm like, well, how do i say this in a kind way? but just because we talked, it doesn't mean that i wanna receive your your newsletter. exactly. and yet some people still believe that that's how it works. yeah.
Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. i actually had something similar happen where i was talking to someone and they messaged me and they said, oh, i'm doing this workshop. would you like the information? i'm like, sure. send it over. and they're like, okay. i i added your your email to my list. and i was like, excuse me. that's not what i said. i said, send me the information, not add me to your email list.
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: and they also use an email that i very intentionally an email address i very intentionally don't use to sign up for for for email list. and so they kind of also took away my own agency over deciding, like, should do i wanna sign up for it? which email address do i wanna use to sign up for it? so yeah. gonna feel good. and i do a lot
Speaker 0: of times, it's well intentioned because they just want to, you know, share their good work, and i'm sure they're doing good work.
Speaker 1: but yes.
Speaker 0: yeah. there's some kind of, like, rules to to respect and consent is is pretty much the first one. right?
Speaker 1: exactly. and you can always still invite someone. say, oh, you know, in this situation, you know, if you connected with someone and i've done this where i've invited people. i've been given a little, you know, like, you know, if you like this conversation and you like what i share, you might be interested in receiving my newsletter. here's what it's about and here's the link to sign up. and i've had lots of people, you know, i've had people say say, no thanks, i'm all set. i'm like, great. i've had other people thank me. they're like, oh, thank you so much. i just signed up. mhmm.
Speaker 0: and i
Speaker 1: think it feels good on both ends, even getting that note. like it knowing that people had that ability to decide options. both.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. exactly. yeah. yeah. we recently talked about substack in one of my programs, and, uh, people asked me about it because they heard good things. and i shared that i really like the idea of having an a newsletter mixed with a community, and then always also the option to sign up. but you don't have to because you can read the the content without having to sign up. so that combination, i think they really figured something out there that that it's not every not everything is locked behind this email wall, and and it just really feels like a good platform. are you on substack?
Speaker 1: i am not on substack. not mostly because i'm so active on doing my newsletter on kit, formerly convertkit, that i didn't i it just felt like i would be
Speaker 0: dividing it to my things. yeah.
Speaker 1: but i have seen people do that well where they have both a substack newsletter substack newsletter and then an email marketing software newsletter because i think it is a is an important distinction to make an important distinction to make. that substack is intended to be a newsletter. so it's really for things more like thought leadership. and there's it's fuzzy because it's not really a promotional platform even from my doing my research on this because i'm asked so often, substack versus kit, that it actually goes against their terms of services to be used exclusively right. to promote your your products and services. it's not an email marketing software. but i have seen people kind of use it in both ways. um, i've also seen people who use an email marketing software for their business and use substack. they'll mention what it is they do, but they use it more for something that's maybe related, but not quite what they do for their business.
Speaker 0: yeah. i like that. the combination of both because to me, substack is also more community building. mhmm. because there's the option to comment, and then, you know, there can be a conversation started where on email, well, if people do hit reply, it's still one on one. it's still yes. so it's it's not community based. so exactly. yeah. yeah. that makes a lot of sense. alright. so talk to us a little bit about best best practices when it comes to email marketing and using empathy. and maybe you can start with the anti, uh, you know, dough or the anti hero, uh, example of what it's like, like the typical funnel, of course.
Speaker 1: yes. oh my gosh. i have such a clear example of this that happened just a few weeks ago. i was listening to someone's summit and someone, one of the participants was had something that they were giving away. and i said, you know what? i'll i'll sign up for their freebie. and immediately, i was pulled right into this very intense sales funnel where i was getting with i think in the five days i lasted on their list, i'd received, like, seventy emails. i didn't count exactly, but it was some days i did notice i was getting two emails, and i just signed up. and my options at this point were to delete or just delete them because i wasn't interested in what they were selling at that time. and if i was just to full on delete those emails, it's not good for the business owner. so when you think about email marketing, you want people to read and engage with your emails, and people not opening and just deleting your emails are one of the worst things that for a business owner because it can impact your deliverability or your email you know, the ability of your emails to show up in in people's inboxes. so, anyway, my options were to delete them to really just to delete them or unsubscribe. and, ultimately, i went with unsubscribe because i was like, this is this is way too much. now, kind of the opposite of that, the more empathy driven version of it, and it's something that i practice and i put in i will work with my clients to do is to to give people the option a couple things. to really set some clear expectations of here's how many emails you're gonna receive from me about x thing over the however many of days, and then you can you'll expect to hear from me on whatever. even if they said, oh, you know, i email every day. at least gives me some indication. i don't know. the other thing is giving people the option to opt out of certain things. so if this person had said to me, you know, i'm selling selling you know, over the next week, you're gonna receive a bunch of a number of emails about this particular offer, and here's why i think it will help you. if you don't wanna receive those emails right now but wanna stay on my regular email list, you know, my regular weekly newsletter or whatever, click here, and i'll do that. and that would have felt like that would have given me some control. it would have acknowledged that just because i signed up for this free thing doesn't mean i wasn't that it would it would have acknowledged that just because i signed up for this free thing didn't mean in that moment i was ready to buy the bigger thing. but it still kinda left the would have left the doors open for me to say, well, maybe down the line. and that's really how i approach email marketing that just because in this moment in time time you are selling something doesn't mean the person on the receiving end is is a good time for them or they wanna hear about it. and giving people the option to opt out of things versus just getting every single thing you send is really the way to lead with empathy. and it it's leaves people on your email list feeling good, and it also helps you as the business owner, again, to make sure you're just sending the emails to people who want to hear hear from you.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and and just the idea of selling in that welcoming sequence is kinda strange to me to begin with. like yeah. right?
Speaker 1: yeah. it felt it felt strange to me. and and maybe this works for that person, and that's why they do it. but i felt as the on the receiving end, a little shell shocked, i guess. i was like, what is happening?
Speaker 0: well, it's a typical funnel approach. it's like, oh, i give you this free thing, then you want this, you know, low cost item under twenty bucks, and then i had got you hooked, and then you're gonna actually. so so that's the typical way that we're taught to yeah. set up a funnel. right?
Speaker 1: oh, yeah. and just to be clear, you know, i did this too. like, this is how i was taught. i was like, okay, this is what i should be doing. and i had for my former business, i had a jewelry business and i did this. and i didn't actually make that many sales from it, quite honestly. and it required at one point, i was you know, i paid for this extra extra technology that was just costing me more money than i was making. and then i was like, well, i can do it without paying for it, but then i manually had to go and update things and lead pages every week. and i was like, why am i doing this? this is such a waste of my time and money. and i'd rather just give people information, give them the option to always you know, here's that thing. like, i can still link to it. yeah. the things that they can buy. but i was like, in retrospect, i'm like, what? what was i doing? but i think i needed to learn those lessons
Speaker 0: mhmm.
Speaker 1: so that i could do what i do now so much better.
Speaker 0: right. yeah. no. i totally hear you. like, all the retargeting strategies that we were learning, if they click this, then now sell them this and yep. all of that. and it might work for an ecommerce site, probably still works. but for something like us, where we are actually selling trust and human connection, that is just, like, the opposite of what should be happening in these emails. right? it should be trust building and not trust yeah. take a great trust, really. that's what it does. i'm sure that's how you felt with with these the the series of bombarding emails, wanting to buy. yeah. yeah. i
Speaker 1: was like, this is not what i signed up for.
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: wow. yeah. it was a a very fast a very fast unsubscribe.
Speaker 0: right. you talked about engagement. right? in the end, that's the ultimate goal always. and it's always like, it's this big word that we often use also on social media. in the end, like, what does that mean in a with an email list? you mentioned opening rates and what else?
Speaker 1: yeah. so so i will say that you have to kind of take open rates with a grain of salt. they're not very accurate, and this is true across all email marketing all email marketing softwares just because of how things like apple has set things up, which which, you know, from a marketing perspective is frustrating, but from a, you know, consumer privacy perspective, i totally respect why they do that. so it's harder to i wouldn't necessarily use open rates as a good as an engagement marker unless it's in kind of context. so, yeah, opening you know, looking to see if people are opening your emails, first step. better step are people clicking on your emails. and, again, that can be a little tricky to track because some email provider inbox providers will kind of use these bots to pre click things, i think, as a way to make sure that they're not spam. so sometimes click through rates are also not very accurate. but things like replies, you can't fake it. well, i guess you could fake a reply with ai nowadays, but chances are we're not getting too many ai replies at at least this point in time. so if people are replying to your emails, that's a really great indication of engagement. kits added a new feature called polls, and i don't you know, i think different email marketing softwares have different things. but polls, uh, it's like as it sounds. you give people you set up a poll, you ask a question, and people have to click on an answer. but because they have to actually click and then it takes them to a page where they have to confirm, it actually is more accurate because people have to take you know, a bot's not gonna be able to click it twice.
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: so, um, and i think and, obviously, if you see people purchasing things, but recognize that for, you know, a few things that depending on how your business is set up, you're not gonna be able to necessarily be able to track a click leading to a purchase. um,
Speaker 0: or depending on the size of the purchase as well purchase as well.
Speaker 1: yeah. exactly.
Speaker 0: if it's a five dollar purchase, yeah, then probably that came from the email. but if it's a two thousand dollar course, well, that lead time is much longer. right? so
Speaker 1: exactly. exactly. and then, you know, it's if you don't so just because i'll add you don't see people necessarily replying to your emails, especially, you know, if you're at full on asking for replies, it doesn't mean that people aren't engaging with your emails. i think people i've had people actually over outside of my emails just kinda come up in conversation. they'll be like, oh my gosh. i loved your email about x y z, or i love reading your emails. i read every single one. and and it's not like they and it's not like they reply to my emails and tell me that. so sometimes you don't even know, which is, you know, can be kind of the frustration.
Speaker 0: because because our subscribers are smart. right? they're they're they're savvy. they know that this email goes out to a group of yeah. however many subscribers. so it almost feels a bit awkward, i think, to people to hit reply to to to an email, uh, that they know goes out to a large group. so i think that's why people don't necessarily always engage because, yeah, they'd rather tell you in person or yeah. in another email or or on social media or something like that.
Speaker 1: yeah. can i actually put give a fun engagement? i don't wanna call it a trick, but a a thing you can try if you're feeling frustrated that you're not getting replies to your emails is asking people to reply with a a specific word. mhmm. because i can really open up the door for conversations. i'm actually i am real i'm involved with a local grassroots environmental nonprofit, and i've been doing a lot of the emails. and we hadn't emailed in, like, a year to our group or, actually, we sent an email in the fall, but it basically had been a long time. but i had this idea for reading this book called climate action for busy people. so i didn't wanna plan the whole thing until i knew there was gonna be people who are interested. so i, you know, used a storytelling email storytelling email, and i said, you know, i'm thinking about doing this book club to bring us all together. if you're interested, just reply with the word book club. and within twenty four hours, i think i got seven or eight replies. and this is from a list of people who, like, they haven't really heard from us very much. but i think giving people something a little bit easier to do can be really powerful and a great way to start a conversation.
Speaker 0: i love that. that that is yeah. that is very smart because you otherwise, you have to think about what am i gonna say. yeah. especially my subscribers, they're kinda like on the introverted side and, you know, it's like it takes us a good half hour to write an email. and so, yeah, just one word, and it's fast and and easy, and yet it can start a conversation. i love it.
Speaker 1: yeah. and sometimes, honestly, even if you ask for a word or, like, give people give a poll, but, like, ask them to reply and just give them, like, choose a if you feel this way, b this way. sometimes you'll actually get more than just that. i've had people reply with to a poll with, like, a, and then they'll go on and write a longer explanation. i think mhmm. making it easy for people so we don't have to get bogged down in the like, these big introspective questions that can feel like a lot to reply to, but make it you know, if you give peep make it a lot simpler for people, again, leading with empathy, recognizing how often we see something in our inbox that feels like, oh, this is really interesting. let me think about it. and then you just forget about it. and not intentionally. yeah. so much going on in
Speaker 0: our lives. you mentioned storytelling, so i assume that's another way to, you know, to build this genuine connection via email. so not not actually make it sound sound like email marketing yeah. which it sounds like you and me both, we kind of, you know, learned that way. and and and now it's like, well, actually, we don't wanna make it sound like anybody else. we just wanna make it sound like ourselves. right? oh, absolutely. storytelling is is the best technique there. yeah.
Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. and you know what? i've had people say who replied to my emails or have had conversations with this about, and they're like, well, you know, i love how you shared that. i wouldn't feel comfortable necessarily sharing something like that. and that's fine. i think it's only sharing what you feel comfortable sharing about your about your life. like, i share a fair amount about being a mom because it very much impacts everything about my life because i've got two young kids, um, but i never show pictures of them. so for me, that's kind of that boundary i set for myself. yeah. so i feel fine sharing some and i don't share private information about them. i'll you know, i might talk about doing a jigsaw puzzle with my seven year old.
Speaker 0: right. yeah. but, you know, we feel that's an important, yeah, thing to state because there was this tendency to use vulnerability as a sales technique. right? so that's definitely not what we're advocating. it's like no. you know, just, yeah, share what feels comfortable sharing. and also, it still has to be somehow related to, you know, the rest of your email, probably the rest of your yeah. just who you are, but not all of a sudden bring up, like, childhood trauma if it's not at all related because you can overwhelm people with too much too much vulnerability. yeah. and you don't want that either.
Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. and i think well, i think it's okay, you know, to be vulnerable. but, again, like, what feels right feels right to you and maybe also giving people kind of a heads up if you feel like you're gonna be sharing something that could be very emotionally triggering for someone.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so in a way, it sounds like we need to find this balance between automation because that's clearly what we're doing. we're using a tool to automate, and yet adding this personal touch to to our emails and to the way we communicate. right?
Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. exactly. and i i'd argue kind of going back to what i said earlier that that automation piece. so it's not kind of meeting people where they're at acknowledging now might not be the right time for you. now you might right now you might not wanna receive these emails about this thing, this promotion. at the end of december, i decided to keep going with my newsletter, but i gave people the option to stop hearing from me during that holiday period and and resume receiving my newsletter in january. um, i give people the option to opt out of my welcome sequence.
Speaker 0: so this is kind of how i'm using automation as
Speaker 1: a tool sequence. so this is kind
Speaker 0: of how i'm using
Speaker 1: automation as a tool to meet people where they're at. instead of so almost giving them more agency to hear less instead of hearing more from me.
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: or but similarly, if they are also giving people the option to express interest in things and using automation as a tool that way
Speaker 0: as well as well. yeah. i like that. the other thing that i liked when i was talking to ellie trier, she's she's on the spectrum, so she's neurodivergent, and she shared something that really resonated with me. she, uh, and it has to do with the email personalization, you know, how we have this tool that lets you use the first name. mhmm. and she is like, i don't understand how neuro normal people think that's normal, that i'm just addressing you as dear sarah or dear bev, where i know for a fact that this email goes out to a lot of people. so to her, that just always feels really strange to to kind of trick her that, oh, it feels like we're just talking the two of us. and i was like, yeah. that makes a lot of sense. so some of my emails, i just started saying, dear ones, or, you know, like, addressing the fact that it's go that i know that it's going out to to the community and not just one on one. yeah. and just, like, thought that fascinating. it's like, yeah. we just all bought into this idea that we use these email personalizations, but to her, that was, like, really bizarre.
Speaker 1: yeah. that is such an interesting point. i wonder if i mean, i hear the the acknowledgment of you know, it feels weird when you get that you know, it's not addressed to you personally. or rather, it is addressed to you, but, you know, it goes out to a bunch of people. but from that other perspective, just how weird that is.
Speaker 0: mhmm.
Speaker 1: and so i'm glad you brought that up. and, also, you think about sometimes people make errors when they're putting their name in, so maybe they they're like they miss they're like they misspelled their own name or they accidentally write it in all caps. and then it looks like you're shouting their name.
Speaker 0: your last name.
Speaker 1: at a time. yeah. so i i could definitely see the argument for just taking out that personalization feature altogether and do, like you said, you know, big ones or dear friend or whatever, you know, whatever fits with yeah.
Speaker 0: yeah. what you talking about mistakes, what what other mistakes do people people commonly make with these tools?
Speaker 1: oh, well, actually, speaking of the personalization feature, sometimes, for whatever reason, people don't get, you know, have their names inputted into when you sign up for someone's email list email list. so it'll say you'll get emails that say, dear, space, comma. so clearly, there's intended to be a name there, but because there's no name field, it just shows up as this this space. so i've been on the receiving end of that and i just find it very, like, it makes me chuckle a
Speaker 0: little bit.
Speaker 1: because i know i've done that too. right. um, forgetting to update the subject line, which we've all done. so you get you send an email and it goes, you know, new broadcast. that's the subject line. right. or or were you meant to update the the whatever your email marketing software uses to pull in the name and it says so then you get an email that says, dear in, like, brackets, first name goes here.
Speaker 0: yes. exactly. yeah.
Speaker 1: i and these things i always like. those i'm just like, oh, they made a tech error. i know i make tech errors.
Speaker 0: so yeah. those are actually very forgivable. right? it's more the the strategy ones where yeah. like, the the example you you shared first is, like, the overwhelm and the manipulation. those those are the bigger i'm missing. yeah. and then often it's not their fault. it's just that they're following the wrong marketing person. they should follow you instead.
Speaker 1: yeah. and this is why i always recommend and this actually goes into what we'll be talking about in the workshop is that i always recommend signing up for your own newsletter, freebie, lead magnet, whatever you wanna call it. i hate the act i actually personally do not like the word lead magnet because i think it dehumanizes this process if, you know yeah. i don't like to think of people on my email list as leads, and i'm magnetizing them on. like, they're people don't like it. yeah. actually, i don't like a lot of marketing jargon. but i always recommend signing up for your your your opt ins, your your freebies, and seeing what it's like so you because i think we there's so many moving parts that go into it that i think when you're done, you're, like, just so relieved. you're like, oh, i got that thing out there. but it's so important to test it up, test it out as someone going through that process who doesn't know you yet and seeing what happens because here's where you'll you'll uncover some some errors you made or you might realize like, oh, shoot. someone signs up for my thing and then immediately somehow i messed it up and now they got, like, three emails all at once, or i got three emails all at once. so that's why it's really important to really
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: take the time to check it all out.
Speaker 0: and probably not just once, but, like, once a year because yeah. and i think that will be the benefit of go going through your workshop for all of us going back to, yeah, signing up to to our sequence again. i yeah. i have to say, i think probably last time i checked was last year to just go through all my emails again because i i don't just have, you know, seven. i have a whole bunch because then i added some other ones. and but, yeah, some of the stuff's probably outdated or links don't work. so, yeah, you didn't wanna oh, yeah. check them regularly. yeah. yeah. i
Speaker 1: and i know i have to i really need to clean up the back end of mine so bad. i just you know, it's kind of a tedious process. but i think if i were to do it all over again, i'd probably just, like, make it a lot simpler. at one point, i tried to make it super complex, and i was like, this is my selling point. it's like to make these really complex automations. and i'm like, no. people want something simple and straightforward. and i'm honestly of the opinion, the simpler you can make it, the better. yeah. some of these email marketing softwares can let you do really fancy things with them. but then the more the, you know, the fancier and more complicated you make it, the more likely it it is for something to get messed up or to break if you add something new in or take something away.
Speaker 0: i agree. and it just needs to be simple unless, again, you're running an e running an ecommerce site or or something like that. but yeah. a lot of i don't know about your clients, but a lot of listeners and my clients are coaches, consultants, and and, you know, they just want something that works, but it doesn't have to be this complicated funnel, and it shouldn't feel like a funnel anyway. it should just yeah. feel like a trust building sequence. exactly. yeah.
Speaker 1: but, again, the whole the term funnel, another one of those words. i'm like, why? i just can't when i think of it, i just end up imagining, like, cattle mhmm. like, going down the slaughter. like, they're just being fed in this one direction, and you're like
Speaker 0: horrible. yeah. yeah. movie is horrible. yeah. tell us more about the the workshop that we have coming up on april second.
Speaker 1: yeah. so it's based on what i call the align framework. so align is an acronym, and it's really about the process that to look through when someone new signs up for your email list. so the first step is affirm consent. so we right off the bat, we're we're starting with consent. and so we're looking at things like, the, you know, do you link to your privacy statement? it's amazing to me how many people don't real don't have a privacy statement, which i think i imagine in europe, you're probably required. i think even in the us, you're supposed to have one.
Speaker 0: or
Speaker 1: at least certain states require it. so link into your privacy statement. if you're giving away a freebie, giving people the option to receive that freebie without being added to your to your email list. and this is particularly important if from and i'll put this little disclaimer out there that i'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice. but, you know, with gdpr, you have to be extra careful with that. and from my understanding of it, people have to be able to receive that thing, that freebie without being added to your email list. um, and then so that's, you know, thinking through these steps. and what's nice about this framework is it's tech agnostic. it's things that we should all be doing regardless of which email marketing software we use. and then from there, um, oh my gosh, i realized i like forgotten what the actual acronym stands for, but i'll just, like, go through the process because i think that's easier that we're looking at things like, oh, the second one is learn from questions. so your your opt in form can be a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about the people coming onto your email list and not in a, like, a creepy, stacker ish way, but really about thinking about it through that lens of empathy and how to make sure you're giving people the information that they actually need. so, for example, i ask when people sign up for my email list, which email marketing software do you use? and if people say nothing, i actually send them a different welcome sequence because a lot of what i talk about is not gonna it's gonna be kind of a little too high level. mhmm. so it it kind of helps them think through, for example, do you actually need a newsletter for your business? um, that one i actually invite people to reply and i'm realizing as i'm talking this through, i'm like, i don't think anyone's replying to that email. so maybe it's time to revisit that welcome sequence.
Speaker 0: right. and and just ask a question with a one word answer. i'm sure that one will work better. yeah. yeah.
Speaker 1: um, and then the other steps are thinking through, um, you know, what ex oh, what expectations are you setting for people. so, you know, if someone signs up for your email list, making sure that they know what to do next. like, they should you know, inviting people or recommending that people go to your their inbox and check for this email and telling them, you know, what is the subject line of that email and also thanking them. and then in that first email, really setting some expectations. like, you're gonna receive this many emails from me over this many days, or i send an email out, like, at this frequency. so you want people to know right off the bat, the bat, especially if you do have some sort of nurturing welcome sequence when people first sign up that's at a more frequent cadence than what you normally sent. yeah. because especially if you're marketing to to consumers, they don't know how this all works necessarily. and if you sign up for someone's email list and you're suddenly getting an email a day, you're like, well, this isn't what i signed up for. but if people know right off the bat, you'll get an email a day. and then from after that, you'll hear from me about once a week. you know, it's in recognizing people meaning
Speaker 0: people transparency. right?
Speaker 1: yes. yeah. it's i'm all about how can we be as transparent as possible through this process. because i think a lot of times in marketing, we've almost been taught with this whole life system is that you don't wanna be transparent. mhmm. would you
Speaker 0: have to be sneaky? you know? yeah.
Speaker 1: which is like, why if you need to be sneaky to sells sell something, i feel like that should send us be sending off some little warning signals there.
Speaker 0: yeah. and and it can't it can't attract the right clients. right? if yeah. if from the get go, they they buy into something sneaky, that yeah. it just can't be a good thing. no. yeah. yeah. exactly. and then
Speaker 1: the last step is nurturing. so i do recommend that most people have some sort of welcome sequence. i think there are some instances where it does you know, you might not. and this is, again, where it goes into, you know, recognizing that there is no one size fits all approach to any of this. so even though for most people, i'm gonna recommend you should have some sort of welcome sequence sequence. if you are, for example, marketing to, like like, presidents and corporations or, like, high you know, c what we call in the us, c suite executives, a welcome sequence would probably be a little odd. yeah. so i wouldn't necessarily recommend it to them. right. but but for the vast majority of us, i think it can be beneficial to have something to at least welcome people into your space.
Speaker 0: yeah. amazing. i can't wait for further yeah. rolling back our sleeves and actually getting getting to work and having you guide us. so yeah. wonderful. yeah. that workshop is on april second. and if you wanna sign up and join us in the humane marketing circle, that's at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. we just ask for a little donation to join us in the community, and, uh, yeah, bev will be there with us live. so exciting. why don't you share also, bev, where people can find you if they want to find out more about your work and maybe see you walk your talk by signing up to your yeah. rep.
Speaker 1: yeah. so the best way i recommend is to go to your personal tech personal tech fairy dot com forward slash newsletter. and there's where i talk a little bit more about my approach to email marketing. and you can see what i just talked about, how you can sign up for my email list. and there's, like, gonna be that question i just i just mentioned. so and you'll you can kinda see how it plays out depending on what you choose. because i will say that, you know, if you choose kit versus a different email marketing software versus nothing, you'll you actually get slightly different emails sent to your inbox.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, i look forward to our collaboration and, uh likewise. thanks so much for being on the show today.
Speaker 1: well, thank you for having me, sarah.
Speaker 0: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. as always, find out more about bev and sign up for her newsletter to see her walker talk at your personal tech fairy dot com forward slash newsletter. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle to join the community, or just join us for this workshop with bev at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero six, um two zero six. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so please go be the change you want to see in the world. speak
Speaker 1: soon.
Speaker 1: right.
Speaker 0: so let's start there. how how do you feel about art, and what do you see with your clients? uh, what what it does for them?
Speaker 1: well, we were talking a little bit before coming on about the state of of the world, so to speak. right? um, and i mentioned that art making for me especially has been such a resource. right?
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: and the way that i see creativity as a partner, right, and as a support system is that it allows you to express things that you might not either be totally aware need to be expressed. right? mhmm. or that may be hard to express on a verbal level. so it helps you access things that, you know, you may not have any connection to. and once it's on the art piece, then that's when the insight comes or the awareness comes or, you know, new information comes. and often, you experience a lot of relief and release at the same time
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: depending on the kind of art making that you're you're into.
Speaker 0: so it's kind of the subconscious coming into, yeah, the paper or the terracotta or whatever, the papier mache, whatever you're using. uh, it kind of expresses itself in that form. is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1: yes. exactly. exactly. and, you know, for for me and the work that i do, i what i notice with clients is and in myself, you know, i think it's part of the human condition, so to speak, is that we get in our heads a lot. you know, we do a lot of thinking.
Speaker 0: say that again.
Speaker 1: yeah. a lot of thinking, a lot of analyzing. you know, we go in circles in our head. and when that happens, we're really disconnected from ourselves and our emotional state and what's happening inside our body. and for me, the way that i see it is like, well, that's where our wisdom is. you know? it's in our body. it's not it's not in our head. you know, we're we're feeling beings, not thinking beings. so if we get too caught up in our head, that often creates more stress. right? we become more agitated, so that affects our not only our mental health, but our physical health. and we can't think as clearly, and it can just more easily become too much, and we get to feel really stuck. right? so when we can get out of our head and into our body a little more, and that's what the art and creative experience does for you, then you can, you know, kinda lower your blood pressure. right? breathe a little easier. there's, like, a physiological transformation that happens when you engage with art, you know, from neurotransmitters being released, you know, your body moving into more relaxation, and clarity often comes from that experience.
Speaker 0: that's so funny. i have never made that, yeah, that relation between embodiment and art. but, yeah, it makes so much sense. you're using your hands or or, you know, yeah, mainly your hands and your arms probably. mhmm. but but what you're saying, it's more than that. it's just like you kinda turn off the thinking and just let the feeling come out into the art and the creativity.
Speaker 1: right. yeah. yeah. because, again, if we're if we're too overly stressed, you know, and just thinking in loops, which we can all get into, then we're not gonna be able to make great decisions. you know, it really impacts our decision making, our ability to visualize something different for ourselves. you know? and, again, we get to feel really stuck. but once we get out of that part of our brain, you know, and into the more sensory brain, then our body transforms immediately. you know, oftentimes when i'm working with clients, even if we're just doing, you know, some silly doodling, you know, something like that, you know, they immediately feel the relief.
Speaker 0: mhmm.
Speaker 1: i mean, i've i've stood in front of a crowd of, you know, over two hundred and fifty people and had them doodle. and almost every person, you know, had a transformative experience, and many people often give me the same feedback, which is like, oh, i feel so much more relaxed. i feel so much calmer. i feel like i have more clarity. it's like, yeah. of course. because when we're in that fight or flight mode, we're not gonna be able to think clearly. it's just physiological fact. right? yeah. but we need to be able to get out of that, and art and creativity is a wonderful resource and tool for that.
Speaker 0: i wonder if it also brings us back into our, you know, inner child or, like, the the the actual child stage of our lives where we're just like, oh, you know, there's no agenda. there's no time. there's no it's like, oh, this is just me and my pencils, and i have all the time in the world to to do that.
Speaker 1: that's right. there's no thinking.
Speaker 0: there's no thinking. no. or or there's thinking, but flow thinking. you know? just like, oh, this happened and this happened, but not, like, cognitive structured thinking like we would right. do for our business. yeah.
Speaker 1: right. exactly. and, you know, it's interesting that you talk about that, you know, like, the cognitive structuring. and i think that that's a lot of the way that we trap ourselves, you know, because we have, a, often unrealistic expectations of ourselves. right? but we're also want everything, like, perfectly planned out or to know what's coming and, you know, gives us a lot of anxiety to sit in the unknown. and so when you have a creative practice, you get to exercise moving through those challenging emotions. right? so if you if i put a piece of blank paper in front of someone and their blood pressure goes up, right, because immediately their thinking brain is saying, but i don't know what to do, and i'm not good at it, and what's gonna happen, and what if i mess it up? and, you know, these are all things that we say to ourselves every day, you know, throughout our day with different things. so once they engage with the process without any thought, right, like, just let the paint flow or let the marker move wherever it wants to move, then we get to exercise that muscle of learning to do that. right.
Speaker 0: yeah. and and it's again, what comes to mind is school. right? and we don't really learn creativity or creative art, uh, at school. we learn cognitive art, maybe, you know, where it's like maybe. all there within the lines and you have to construct exactly the example of the teacher. like, that's not create creativity. right? that's just like i don't know why you call that. mimicking. exactly.
Speaker 1: it's mimicking. right? so there's no independent thought around that, which is really interesting, right, versus a younger child. i taught preschool for many years, you know, which is like the three to five year old range. and what i remember about that age group is that there really was no thought. it it was all intuitive.
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: i the painting is attracting me. right? and so i'm gonna go to the easel, and i'm gonna put paint on the paper. there there was no thinking around that. you know? it was all really intuitive. and when i think about a a childlike state, i think about free flow, and i think about curiosity.
Speaker 0: mhmm.
Speaker 1: right? how children are often in a constant state of curiosity. like, i wonder what that is and how does that work and let me touch it and let me smell it and, you know, all these kinds of things, you know, really connecting with your sensory being.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. that's so good. i was just thinking about my my mandala and the seven p's. right? yes. and and how, yeah, i really wanted to combine the the framework with the creativity and with the coloring and not like, also with self reflection. so while the idea, at least for the seven piece of humane marketing with the mandala, is that while you're coloring, you're kind of, like, free flow thinking about these different areas of your business. because you're using your body and your creativity, it doesn't feel so heavy.
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 0: does that make sense at all?
Speaker 1: no. absolutely. because, again, it's it's i think what people don't often understand and is undervalued is the physiological, the tran transformation that occurs, you know, when you start engaging with art making or creativity. so coloring into, you know, your mandala workbook, so to speak, right, that is gonna immediately activate the right brain, and it's gonna release those neurotransmitters that are very calming, you know, like dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin. right? and so that physiologically changes your body and makes it easier for you to be able to think clearly. that's right. it it doesn't feel as heavy. but when we sit in, like, left brain stuff, you know, like, the way that typical business planning goes is, you know, goals and it's very masculine. right? structure. you know? what am i gonna accomplish? what what am i gonna produce? you know? and that puts, like, a lot of pressure. even as i'm speaking that, i can feel that my body is getting tighter just talking about it. right?
Speaker 0: it's a linear process that
Speaker 1: yes.
Speaker 0: i feel like, oh, this.
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure. yes. it's a lot of pressure. and then we, you know, then we can move into our perfectionism stuff that it has to be a certain way and or fear of making a mistake. you know? and, again, notice the parallel between that experience and the art making experience where we can have the exact same sensations and thoughts. what if i mess it up? what if i don't do it right? you know? i was recently at a at a women's conference, and it's a pretty large conference. it was about fifty five hundred women there. and i had a booth where i was inviting people to come doodle with me. right? and what i kept really being fascinated by was how many people would either say, oh, no. no. i i don't know how, which is like but it's doodling.
Speaker 0: i didn't i didn't ask you to draw
Speaker 1: my list. like, you know, like a lifelike image of something. you know? it's just, you know, scribbling around on a piece of paper, or i would hear something like, well, i don't know. i'm not really good at that, or i don't know if i can. you know? and as i was, you know, guiding the women there, you know, explaining what i'm explaining to you, like, hey. you know, right now you're just in your head, and this is gonna help you get out of there and start flowing. you know, some of the women were like, i can't believe how much i'm in my head. i literally can't get started. right? it was like, wow. this is amazing.
Speaker 0: thinking, oh, how do i start this?
Speaker 1: yeah. is there a right way? is there a wrong way? what again, the the same thoughts that we often have, you know, as we're moving through our business and in life. right? what if i get it wrong? what if i mess it up? what if it's what will people think? you know? all these kinds of things. and when they would engage with it, every single time, it was the reporting back was, wow. i feel so much different. and i'm gonna work on this because i can see that i'm spending too much time in my thinking brain.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so good. in in my upcoming book, business like we're human, i talk about this concept of spaciousness and how if we healed our relationship to work and kind of, like, created because in the industrial revolution, we created this myth that we are basically working bees. right? it's like we work every day, nine to five, well, at least weekdays. and that's how we define ourselves as human is by our job title very often. and and there was no spaciousness. people, you know, run around with the busyness badge, and and, of course, they don't doodle. you know? of course, they don't have time to to doodle. right. and so, basically, what i'm hearing is the reason why people don't make time to doodle is because they don't create spaciousness in their calendar, and they feel like the their definition of success, they only get there if they work, work, work, work, work. right? mhmm. and so even doodling feels like a waste of time. i'm wasting my time. right? mhmm.
Speaker 1: yeah. and it's a little bit too, like, how art and creativity is perceived. right? there's often this misconception that, you know, a, it's for kids. yeah. right? and two, there's just no value to it. like, what what is the point? you know? if you can't draw something lifelike, then what would be the point of doing that? and so my message is, you know, let me explain to you what happens to your brain and your body and how that transforms and how that creates spaciousness in your mind, right, in your heart, in your body, and that how that then translates out, you know, into the work that you're doing. and, you know, i love that you're talking about, like, your relationship with your business because when i work with clients around their business, creating imagery about your business is actually extremely powerful.
Speaker 0: mhmm.
Speaker 1: right? because now you are in a relationship with it if you externalize it in that way. so whatever, you know, image comes to mind when you think about your business, how how would you want to imagine it, right mhmm.
Speaker 0: mhmm.
Speaker 1: as an image. and it changes because, again, our our business exists in our head or in how much money we're making or how many clients we have or, you know, etcetera. but when it's this physical, tangible thing that you can look at and touch, now you can have a relationship with your business.
Speaker 0: yeah. that's interesting. i think of of it maybe like, i would probably draw myself if i, you know, thought thought about my business because to me, it's really just an extension of myself nowadays. hasn't always been like that. but nowadays, i just feel like if i think about business like we're human, it's just an extension with myself of myself. and so i guess what i would would be working with in this drawing is, oh, what's my relationship with myself? right? because if i am my business and it's an extension of myself, well, then what's my relationship with myself? and, yeah, you can you can get into really fascinating conversations right there.
Speaker 1: exactly. exactly. and if if, you know, if you make it a regular practice
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: you know, to check-in with with yourself and your business in that way, you know, again, there's just a deeper connection. it's not so surface or, um, task oriented.
Speaker 0: right. yeah. yeah. so tell me about some other tools you're using with your with your clients. like, what what do you help? there's another, uh, line that, um, you know, i got from your website. you help, um, you help women rediscover their wild. mhmm. yes. that also, of course, what it makes me think of is yeah. well, in relation with you, like, lots of colors and and just, like, yeah, this creative artist. right? that's what it makes me think.
Speaker 1: vibrancy. vibrancy is the word that comes up for me. well, the the concept of the wild woman, you know, it's related to an archetype by, um, doctor clarissa estes pintoz, and she's an author, and she talked about the wild woman archetype. and what the acronym that i came up with around the wild woman is, um, w stands for waking up to your life. so to me, that means taking responsibility for yourself. right? no one's gonna come in and rescue you. you have to do the work. right? and then the i is for ignite your inner knowing, and that's where the creativity comes in. like, there's wisdom inside you. you don't need to constantly look for it outside of yourself because that's something that i notice with women, know, as they're constantly looking for external validation or, oh, i need i need a coach for this. i need a, you know, a teacher for that. and it's like, well, sometimes that is really helpful, and other times, you're just not trusting yourself. so the creativity, you know, is something that connects you to your inner wise woman. mhmm. right? and helps you build that confidence to keep going. right.
Speaker 0: and then
Speaker 1: the the l is for love yourself fiercely, which is a huge element. like, that needs to be our baseline, you know, for living is learning to love ourselves like we do other people. you know? so i often invite my clients to think about someone that they deeply care about, somebody that means a lot to them, right, and how that feels, you know, when they think about that person, how they feel about that person, and what needs to happen to then turn that same kind of loving energy, you know, towards themselves. because we tend to be so hard on ourselves. right? so learning to be self compassionate and and be loving and kind to yourself is a huge part of business success. right? and then the d is to dare to be unapologetically you. like, you're the only person that you can be. right? but oftentimes, there's so much comparison that's going on. like, oh, wow. look at sarah. she's she's doing a lot because, you know, look at this class or this post that she put up, and so i i gotta be like sarah. you know? and it's like, no. like, i can't be like sarah because i'm me. right? i can i can have sarah inspire me? right? like, that's okay. right? but we're constantly doing this comparison. it's like, well, you you can only be yourself, and you have to learn to live with who you are. right? live with yourself. and when all those aspects are addressed, then that makes being being in life more feel more successful, but definitely in your business. right? because, again, in business, we go up and we go down, up and down and backwards and forwards, right, and sideways. and that can really impact, you know, our mental our mental state, you know, how we see ourselves, how we think about ourselves. but if we can always go back to, i'm okay. i'm a worthy person. right? and be kind to yourself as you move through all of that, then you can keep moving forward with a lot more ease. otherwise, again, we we'll just get stuck in that.
Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. you just look for the exterior confirmation that you are good enough where it's all inside of us. right? but you need you
Speaker 1: need to
Speaker 0: find it. yeah. this acronym would have fit really nicely also with marketing because everything you shared applies to to marketing as well. right? so so, yeah, tell us a little bit about your marketing story because you attended the marketing, like, where human program back in can't remember when, but a while ago.
Speaker 1: yes.
Speaker 0: and then i just watched you bloom and, like, be yourself and bring all that creativity into your marketing. so was that yeah. just share a little bit. like because i remember in the beginning, you you you thought it was hard because marketing to you just seemed like this thing that we have to do a certain way. right?
Speaker 1: mhmm. it felt like a task.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah.
Speaker 1: right? and i think that that's probably been the biggest transformation is that i see it more as an expression. right. now. right? before it was like, well, you know, you you have to do this. you have to have a website, and you have to post. and, you know, and if i i don't function that well as a highly sensitive person, it's like that that didn't feel good to me, you know, in my body. like, that's not how i wanna approach my business. i don't want it to feel like a task. right. right? and so there were oftentimes when i felt like i was doing stuff just for the sake of doing it. mhmm. you know? mhmm. and that didn't feel good. it didn't feel authentic. you know? it didn't feel right for me and my body. so once i started thinking about marketing and, again, creating, you know, imagery around marketing, around my business, how do i wanna be in it, you know, that kind of a thing, i started to really think about it more as an expression of myself. yeah. right? and how do i wanna express myself in the world?
Speaker 0: you should do a post, like, before and after. you know? because i remember i remember your your post from before where it's like, oh, yeah. this is this is a marketing post, right, where you basically and, like, everybody does, like i did too. it's like, oh, you have to create this certain marketing post. you get a canva template, and here you go. here's my message. right? and then, you know, the after is now, like, you doodling or your latest art project or yeah. it just really feels like, oh, there is miriam. she's being herself. right?
Speaker 1: exactly. it feels much more connected and much more authentic.
Speaker 0: yeah. of course, people who are listening, uh, might be thinking, oh, yeah. of course, you know, she is, uh, you know, a creative and an art therapist and and working with women like that. but what i always say is, like, bring more of you. so maybe you're doing like, i just shared with you. i'm i'm i signed up for a pottery class. like, is not part of my business. i'm not a pottery teacher, but it make a really fun post, you know, to share about this pottery class. and so it doesn't always have to be business oriented what we're sharing, and and that creativity can really come into our marketing as well.
Speaker 1: no. i agree. and, you know, just on a little side note because i think that, you know, people look at me and think, you know, well, she's a creative. creative. so you know? and, again, that's really kind of a put down towards themselves. you know? but i'm not.
Speaker 0: right? yeah.
Speaker 1: and so my backstory is that i didn't go into the field of art therapy because i i was an artist. i never practiced art. i worked with kids, and i wanted to continue to work with kids in a therapeutic way. and i thought, well, that's their language. it's art. right? and so art therapy seems like a really good fit. but the biggest transformation for me was that, you know, in my arrogance at the time, you know, over twenty years ago now when they, you know, invited me into the master's program, but also said, yes. but you need twelve units of art. you know? i was slightly offended. you know? because i thought, well, why do i need to do that? like, i'm just helping other people, which, you know, i always reflect back on that and think, wow. where was i in my journey that i couldn't even consider, right, that that would be for me? and so the gift came from learning to use art in as a tool for healing and wellness and and self development. i didn't go to art classes to learn how to draw a specific thing or technique, or that isn't how i learned to make art. you know? and so even my my personal development as an artist, right, like, i'm still working on really owning that title, right, because of all of the conditioning around art.
Speaker 0: right. yeah.
Speaker 1: right? well, you didn't you don't have an mfa or you can't draw lifelike things, and it's like, right. but none of that has anything to do with anything. from my perspective, we're all artists. we all have the ability to create and express because that's really all it is. right? and i heard, um, i heard a term recently, a little saying that said, um, expression is the opposite of depression. right? and i was like, oh. that's yes. yes. right? because depression is often we're holding emotion. you know, our body's kind of saturated, you know, with unprocessed emotion. but if you use the art process to express, then things get lighter, you know, in your body. so for anybody out there who doesn't think they're a creative, you know, or an artist, i i'm here to tell you, yes. you are. right? you just have to allow yourself to explore and experiment. and like i said before, be curious. and just see what happens. you know? if you put some paint on a piece of paper, let's see what happens.
Speaker 0: yeah. and it it really is like, art has this, yeah, connotation of, like, you need to study it and and all of that. but creativity is a different term to me. it's like, yeah, you can be creative for two minutes. right? it doesn't take a lot of time. it doesn't take studying. it doesn't take anything. it doesn't take, like, all these special tools. like, you talk about doodling. you can just take your pencil to doodle. you don't even need colored pencils or anything else.
Speaker 1: you don't need anything fancy. and it's it's good to actually differentiate between creativity and artistic expression. right? because creativity, its baseline definition is problem solving.
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: that's all it is. creativity is problem solving, thinking outside the box, you know, coming up with new ideas. it's like, well, you do that every day, all day long. every single human does that every day. right? but artistic expression, right, is using a medium to express those ideas. mhmm.
Speaker 0: yeah.
Speaker 1: that's the difference. right? so creativity, you know, again, it gets kinda interlaced with artistic expression. but when you think about it, you know, in those in that bare bones definition, no. it's just imagination. it's just thinking about a new idea. it's just problem solving. right? it's like, oh, well, i do that. that's what most people will say. you know, it's like, right. exactly. so you are therefore creative.
Speaker 0: right. but does that mean like, i like the artistic expression because maybe that means that we're putting it out there rather than because you can be creative in your head. right? mhmm. where we wanna get out of our heads, and so maybe the expression is
Speaker 1: it's the expression. that's right.
Speaker 0: is needed.
Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. absolutely. because at some point, you know, as you're problem solving through something or if you get a new idea, you're gonna have, like, uh-huh. and and you're gonna execute something.
Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah.
Speaker 1: you know? who knows what that will be, but something's going to happen from that. and so artistic expression is just, i think, setting more intention and more consciousness around that expression.
Speaker 0: right. yeah. yeah. it's beautiful. so what would you say to people who are listening who are kinda like these women that you met at the stand? it's like, oh, i don't know where to start or i can't do it. like, yeah, what's an easy first step?
Speaker 1: well, an easy first step is to grab a piece of paper. and like you said, it doesn't have to be like, the writing tool doesn't have to be anything fancy. it could be just a regular old pencil or pen. you know? um, if you wanna have a little bit more play, you can add some color to that. right? and just move it around the page. that's it. right?
Speaker 0: it's so simple.
Speaker 1: i know. we live in a world where there's either straight lines or curved lines. right? it's that simple. and so to move the pen or pencil around in whatever way it wants to move, you know? up, down, straight across, wiggly, spirally. it doesn't matter. right? and one of the things that people will notice if they engage in that practice is that the head was gonna turn on. right? it's gonna say, i don't know. i don't know. or this is dumb. or what am i doing? you know? all of these things that, you know, go through our head. and slowly, that voice will start to quiet. right? because the other part of the brain is gonna start to get activated, and you're gonna start to notice, you know, how that feels differently. so it's it's really quite simple. right? it doesn't have to be overcomplicated at all. no one's asking you to pull out a water palette or get a canvas out or, you know, even take a pottery class like you're saying. you know? it's like, no. you don't have to do anything like that. it would be really fun if you did, but it doesn't have to be that complicated. it's just moving stuff around. and i had i had somebody say that she she called herself now a born again doodler because she and so many people will say that, well, i remember i would get in trouble for doodling, though, right, when i was a kid. i'm like, i know. that's because there's a misconception, you know, around doodling and how powerful it is, you know, and what's happening in your brain around it and how actually for a lot of people, it helps you retain more information.
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: if you're doodling, like, at a meeting or during a workshop or, you know, something like that. yeah. like, it's actually gonna help you.
Speaker 0: yeah. i should have done that while we were talking. i should have you know? and then i could have held it. yeah. we need to record it again.
Speaker 1: a quick mini activity. yeah. there's still time, sarah.
Speaker 0: yeah. so definitely just just try it out. and and and i like how you say, you know, start to notice the left brain. first, they will want to rebel and say, this is just stupid. why are doing this? and then it switches over to the right brain, and it's just, like, calming down.
Speaker 1: you start to feel the flow in your body. you kinda start to let go a little bit. you know? and, again, it's such a great practice to manage some of the thoughts that can come in and interfere. you know? so as i'm moving somebody through the process, you know, the inner critic is gonna wanna come in and say, oh, that's not a very good flower, or that was oh, that doesn't look like x, y, or z. and, you know, my job is to say, do notice that.
Speaker 0: right.
Speaker 1: notice how the critic wants to come in. right? and how can we manage that? and, again, this is just a muscle building around managing that voice.
Speaker 0: yeah. so you're basically helping women tap into that right brain and creative power so that it then, yeah, i guess, helps them with their business in order to keep going. like you said before, it's like, well, you know, we need that resilience. and where do we get resilience is going inwards and using tools like, uh, artistic expression.
Speaker 1: exactly. because some of the, you know, the main obstacles, you know, that women encounter in business are things like perfectionism, you know, having too high of an expectation, you know, having the inner critic constantly be, you know, in your ear, you know, things like that. and there's not a lot that we can do about the inner critic, like, in terms of, like, that's just part of the human condition. you know, it has a purpose, believe it or not, but it doesn't have to dominate. right. it it it definitely won't be helpful if it's in charge, right, running the show. so every time that you engage in a creative practice, you know, and make a little doodle, make some art in some way, and that voice comes up, like, the more you move through that, the better you get at addressing that in everyday life.
Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. beautiful.
Speaker 1: it's empowering.
Speaker 0: it really is. and it reminds me of this the the book, um, and the quote where, um, it says the right right brainers will rule the world, i think. and it and it really you know, it really i really feel like this is the paradigm we're shifting to. we can't we like, look where we're at. we have all this left brain power, and yet we're we can't solve the planet's problem. no. so we need to start imagining new ideas. and what does that need? creativity. right? exactly. to think outside the the box. well, yeah, we need more art. yeah. and i think
Speaker 1: that's a that's a good point. you know? i mean, we we have and continue to operate so much in that left brain and kind of masculine energy. and my observation, you know, in the work that i do is that people are really stressed out. yeah. horrible. the stress is higher than ever. you know? and it's like, how's that working? honestly, like, be honest with yourself. how's it really working for you to exist constantly in that left brain kind of masculine space of doing and producing and trying to be perfect and, you know, doing things a certain way or the quote, unquote, the right way, you know, etcetera. it's like, you know, if you really check-in with your body, you're probably really stressed. yeah. and that's not
Speaker 0: it's pretty often they're so stressed. they don't even know what it's like anymore to not be stressed.
Speaker 1: yes.
Speaker 0: so the body forgot what it's like to be calm. and and probably at the beginning, it can be stressful to do these doodlings because it's so calm. right? it's like, my god. this is so yeah. this feels weird.
Speaker 1: even know what to do.
Speaker 0: yeah. so, yeah, we need we need you. we need your help in this transition. that's that's for sure.
Speaker 1: yeah. it's a really powerful tool that's often underestimated.
Speaker 0: and it's you know, it can be free. i mean, like, look. we all have, you know, pencils.
Speaker 1: we all have a pen and pencil. yeah. exactly. yeah. yeah. it does not have to be fancy.
Speaker 0: beautiful. alright. but do please share with people where they can find out how to work with you if they need some help in in this transition.
Speaker 1: yeah. if they're looking for an alternative way. yeah. work. right? because, you know, what i noticed in the in the coaching business is that there's a lot of focus and emphasis on mindset work, you know, which is great. you know, mindset's really important. but unless you get your body to buy in, it's gonna be really hard to make that shift. right? so mhmm. the whole body approach is really important. and people can find me, you know, on on the web and at my website, mary martinez coaching dot com. i'm also on linkedin and instagram. people wanna look for me there. right? but oftentimes, the people that come to me are are looking for an alternative way. they've done a lot of, you know, kind of left brain work, goal setting.
Speaker 0: yeah. it's like they're they're like, i've tried everything. i need something else.
Speaker 1: yeah. i'm looking for something else. yeah. i'm looking for a more expansive way, you know, i would say to exist in general, not just to, you know, improve my business, you know, or anything like that, but just a way of being.
Speaker 0: yeah. that's beautiful. kinda similar with humane marketing. you know? it's like, i tried everything. i want something different.
Speaker 1: that's right. yeah. and i just why you and i are connected.
Speaker 0: exactly. yeah. and i just grabbed, uh, your card on my desk, and i don't know if i ever told you. you know the the peace symbol? yes. yes. yes. did i tell you that the business like we're human book is based on this peace symbol? no. oh, i forgot to tell you that. yeah. i was like, oh, i need you know how i had the mandala for the marketing for human book? and so i'm like, i need a new visual, right, for for this third book. and i looked at your your card. i'm like, that's it. we need inner peace so that we can bring outer change. and so that's what the business like we're human book is based on is your picture that you sent me.
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. that's so exciting. right?
Speaker 0: yeah. so, yeah, peace peace sign. more peace and more creativity and art. that's what
Speaker 1: right. and bringing out onto the world. otherwise, we're just producing.
Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. we're just producing. yeah. that's powerful. mhmm. well, thanks so much for this wonderful conversation, miriam. really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: yeah. thank you too, sarah.
Speaker 2: hello, friends. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits best under the p of product and promotion as well as people because we talk about your website and how it can attract conscious clients. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different pieces for your business. so it's not prescriptive but reflective. today, i'm talking to jutta demontis, an austrian based in england. jutta is a web designer and specializing in creating effective wordpress websites for coaches, solopreneurs, and small businesses. she designs websites that are strategically crafted to serve as powerful marketing tools that attract clients and drive business growth. ootah is passionate about helping small businesses and solopreneurs thrive in the digital world, providing them with the support they need to succeed online. in this episode, we discussed what conscious consumers really look for when they land on your website, and how they think differently from traditional customers. ways to showcase your values and mission authentically without coming across as preachy or fake. how to tell your story in a way that genuinely connects with conscious clients and doesn't put them asleep. but also how to create a sustainability page, for example, where you tell your story and your connection to sustainability. the key info conscious consumers dig for when researching your business and how to make it easy to find. why site speed matters more than you might think when it comes to showing that you care about your user experience. essential website maintenance tasks you shouldn't ignore if you want to keep things running smoothly. and then also common website mistakes that could be scaring away conscious clients. if after listening to this episode you'd love to implement, then please join us in our community for this new collab workshop on march fifth. you can sign up for a small donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. so let's dive in.
Sarah: Uta how are you today?
Uta: hi, sarah. yes. i'm very well. thank you.
Sarah: so good to have you on the humane marketing podcast. welcome.
Uta: great. thank you.
Sarah: super excited, also to have you in the community to talk to us about this topic of website care and maintenance for conscious business owners. so looking forward to march fifth. but before, let's have a conversation about this topic, which i think is very relevant. and, it combines like we said, we it combines kinda two topics. on one hand, it's focused on the business owner, because we're talking about the maintenance and the care that goes into a website. but then it also, concerns the the the conscious client because that's the person who visits our website. so maybe let's start with the with the conscious client. like, if you think about a a a website, what do you feel today that are the main key elements that a conscious client, looks for when landing on a website? like, what are they paying attention to?
Uta: yes. so conscious clients, of course, it depends whether it's a service or a product. so, you know, they're slightly different. but generally, in addition to for to any client wanting to know that the service or the product is right for them, they also want to know the background of the company. so, if it's a product, they want to know where is the material from, where has it been sourced, how has it been manufactured, how is the packaging provided, how is the transport, everything around. whether this is as green as it possibly can be, whether it's sourced in an ethical way, and everything that is, really caring for the environment and people. services, there's, the since they're not offering a product, they don't have, any sourcing material in in that way. but even the website itself is also how, a website is being how the business itself that is having the website is, conducting business. so for example, are they if they're a smaller or bigger company, how they are, you know, with the employees, are they giving back to the community, do they have certain programs that help the community, also make it more, inclusive. so there's a whole lot that different businesses can do to really show and demonstrate that they are a conscious business, that they're inclusive, that they take responsibility socially and, environmentally, and that they're doing the best that they can, in providing, a good service and product that is, also really, provided in a conscious way.
Sarah: yeah. so good. thanks for giving those examples. now in our case, there we mainly have solopreneurs. right? so these are not most of my listeners don't have a product. they there are coaches, consultants, trainers, etcetera. and so where, like, on the website, would you mention any of these engagements that you mentioned that, you know, for example, you give back to the community or that that you're supporting a cause or something like that? where do people usually mention that?
Uta: yeah. so one page, which is great, is, for example, the about page. or alternatively, they could even create in, separate pages, sustainability page or how we contribute page. but, so the about page, everything on the website is about the consumer rather than the business itself. in the about page, there's more, sort of freedom tools to really talk about the company in a way, that really shows, who they are. so in the in the case of a one person business, a one person, that person is the business. we are the reflection of the company. so we can, share our values of, also share what we're doing. so for example, if the website is hosted, by a green hosting company, then that would be a great place to also show that on the website. because i think sometimes people, they do they support a lot of be it, you know, growing trees or, supporting charities and doing quite a lot. but sometimes they're even hesitant of putting that on the website out of fear that perhaps, it it comes across in the way that they want to show off that we are doing all these, you know, activities to help others. but i think it is, i think it's really good to show if this is authentically and truthfully what the company or the one person is doing, then to show that on the on the website, for example, if they're supporting a charity, perhaps they're having a blog where they could write about a recent, you know, event where they were involved, when they were raising money for charity, for example. so all of these, inform i think all of that information is really great to share because, really, it shows of who that person, that business is.
Sarah: yeah. those are great, great places. obviously, i think the about page, besides the homepage, is actually the most visited page of of a website. right? because people are just curious. and you said it's so, yeah, eloquently. it's not so much about the owner or not only about the owner of the website. yes. people are curious about the owner of the website, but i always explaining explain it like a a mirror almost. like, they come to the about page to find out whether they're looking at themselves and whether they see themselves in the the owner of this website or in my case, since i i work a lot with with solopreneurs specifically. but even even on a product or a company website, we are looking whether we are aligned with this company, and that's what happens on the about page. so, yeah, i totally agree with you that that's a good place. i think i have actually a few, like, logos of, you know, collaborations, that i have at the bottom, like, in the footer of of, one of the pages or or maybe even on can't remember. should i look that up? but but that's other another way to, you know, have certain, logos that you, want to highlight and put them in the footer of of the website. what do you think about that?
Uta: yes. absolutely. or any certifications or, you know, organizations that you're a member of, absolutely, to place those in the footer is a great place.
Sarah: yeah. so conscious clients, they're not just conscious, but they also i feel like they're more thorough in their research, and they're, you know, they they really come to your website to get a lot of information. so what is some of the information that you want to make sure that they have access to besides, you know, these collaborations that we we just mentioned? and and how does storytelling have a role in that?
Uta: mhmm. yes. so when you, think of a website, there are really two parts of the website. so there are the main pages, which are, you know, the home, the about, the individual service pages, the contact page. this is which makes up the basic structure of the website. and within that, you're also sharing your story, or the story, that is speaking to the client, to help them understand what you're offering and whether that is the right thing. and then you have, i suggest, people to have a blog because the blog serves several purposes. on the one hand, a blog is the place where you can really write and go deeper into certain aspects of your work, all the values, and what is important to you because that doesn't all fit onto one page. it would be overwhelm for a client to to read everything. but so this is really good where it's where you have a blog because it can demonstrate, you know, that you're an expert in what you're in the service that you're providing. you can share more about you, your values. you can demonstrate that more. and, it's also great for seo. so for seo, you need to have more content, highly valuable content. and so you can share more about that in the various blog posts.
Sarah: yeah. so true. and it's funny because it's actually just today that we're having the the seo, workshop, collab workshop with, kelly druid. and in that combination of content and and and then also kinda tricking the algorithm to show up for the right people. right? for those conscious clients that i i find that fascinating that we can play the game, but play it in a humane way so that it it benefits us. and and, yes, you're so right. the blog helps us go beyond just the about page. right? so even if we're not just aiming for seo, it just gives us extra space that we can use to to expand on on those topics. yeah.
Uta: yes. absolutely. so for this, a blog is really the perfect, solution instead of cramming it all into one page.
Sarah: right. i i, i think it was a contact on linkedin, trying to remember her name. she's from the philippines. i think her first name is chek or or dulio or something like that. i'll have to look her up and and quote her in the show notes. but she's really into sustainability, and, she had this kind of template, how to create a sustainability page for for your small business, which i, really loved. and what i loved about it is that she invited us to tell our story with sustainability. because, again, we're not a huge corporation where we have a sustainability department and everything is perfect, and, you know, we're you're we're totally we taught totally bought into sustainability, and we're now an expert in sustainability. we're not. so, i, followed that that template that she shared and really just with transparency shared my story of of how sustainability has, become more and more important to me. so if listeners are curious, you can go to humane dot marketing forward slash sustainability and just kinda see how i share that story. i think that's important in the small business field because it can feel overwhelming. this whole sustainability thing can feel totally overwhelming, and we can feel like, who are we to want to even try to make an impact here as, you know, solopreneurs? but we actually can make a small impact, and all all of the small impacts make a big impact as we know. so, yeah, really, really like this idea of transparency and just saying, hey, you know, yes, i take flights, because because that's important to me. but i have many other things where i feel like i'm doing a good job. i think that that's another topic. it's kind of like this shaming that goes around, around the sustainability topic, and that's difficult, to to deal with. so, yeah.
Uta: yes. i agree. i think that is also partly tying into what i was sharing before that people then are hesitant about sharing anything on the website because somehow it could perhaps have a drawback even though the intention was coming from a good place. but i think i like to think that we're all on a journey. so it's not that we are the completed end product in a conscious business that does everything correctly. because it is a process. we're just becoming better and better and becoming more sustainable and more conscious. so i, you know, we are all in different places, and i'm just encouraged that everyone is on that journey, and we are all getting better and better. and that's, you know, what we can do.
Sarah: yeah. exactly. let's switch topics and now go to the business owner, part and more of the website maintenance. so, yeah, what what role does website maintenance have to play in this whole field of being a conscious entrepreneur? what matters there?
Uta: yeah. so i see a website like the shop window, to a shop or a restaurant. and, you know, when you go past the shop window, the shop window should really be a great reflection of what the shop is actually offering, being clean, up to date, appealing to that type of client or customer that they want to attract, and being taken well taken care of and so for me the website is exactly the same and especially for solopreneur, the business is a reflection of who we are and i see that the website is really a reflection of that business. so to make sure that it's really up to date with the offerings that we're having, that, we're keeping that fresh, that we are updating, you know, if you've got, any new certifications, for example, or client, reviews, that we're adding them to the website. so the website isn't a a one you know, a once it's done, it's done kind of project. it's an ongoing project. and i also find it actually helps me to look at myself and my business when i look at my website because it gives me an a reflection back of, okay, that's where i'm at now. so i like it actually as a kind of a journey of business and personal development. that's the way i see the the website. so, it depends whether you have a wordpress website, a wix, or squarespace, or something else, in terms of what you actually need to do. so i'm gonna focus on wordpress websites because this is where you as the business owner have to do, the more, tasks than somebody who has a wix or squarespace or some other website. what's really important is that you keep an eye on with updating wordpress, the plugins, and the themes. because what happens if that isn't done regularly is that hackers could hack, one's website and the website owner might not even be aware that they've been hacked, and that could go on for a really, really long time. they couldn't realize that at all. then the website could also be infected with malware. and then from then on, it's just, you know, you need to basically try to either review, remove the malware and sometimes just start again with a fresh website. so you don't want to have that happen, and this is why it's really important to keep an eye and keep always software updated, and that's actually also quite an easy thing to do. it's not a very complicated thing to do.
Sarah: yeah. it happened to me twice. and i can't like, even though i updated the the plugins, so i was just super, super happy that i had a backup. actually, i had a backup from the the host, but then an additional backup that i pay for annually. so, yeah, it's just such a pain when you get hacked. and oftentimes, you don't, yeah, you don't notice it unless you're on your website, like, daily and or, of course, you have, clients tell you that, you know, something's wrong there. so yeah.
Uta: yeah. and thank you for mentioning. that is the other really important task to do is to have regular backups. very often, the hosting companies offer that as part of the package, but it's good to have an additional set of backups, for yourself that you can also automate, have that backed up every, you know, week or however you want to choose to, to a a drive. and, yes, always good to have a backup and to be able to restore the website.
Sarah: yeah. what about, you know, from the visitor's perspective, i always hear that speed, is a big deal. i think it's a big deal for seo, but it's obviously also kind of important for the the visitor. so maybe the question is, well, what makes a website fast or on the other hand slow? and how can we prevent that or or keep up with maintenance to not have that happen?
Uta: yeah. so one of the major, reasons why websites are slow are because there could be very large images or media files, a lot of animations, that just make the website slow load quite slowly. so whenever, you know, somebody uploads a new blog post or any other image to always optimize the images is really important. it's also important from a sustainability point of view because the it's smaller in data, so it takes less storage space. so, optimizing images is really important. and, also clearing out, you know, your media, folder once a week, you know, so often to, delete any images that, you know, one doesn't need. sometimes, you know, people upload several versions of the same image because the sizing wasn't quite correct, but then they leave all the old versions on there. so good housekeeping really helps with that.
Sarah: yeah. yeah. that's so true. like and and informing everybody who's working on your website, because i had that happen where i was very diligent, but i hadn't thought of, oh, i need to inform my virtual assistant who's actually doing all the podcast show notes. and and so we have these mega big files, image files, and i couldn't understand why this was happening. so yeah. like, every anybody who touches your website needs to understand, a, how you minimize the images and b, why we're doing it. so so so true. yeah.
Uta: yeah. so and, mhmm.
Sarah: yeah. so explain to us you mentioned, you know, it also matters from a sustainability perspective. like, explain that to us because i remember just a few years back, i i'm working with, with the company called pond foundation where i do, measure my emissions and and buy, credits every year. but before that, i well, i actually while i was talking to them, i was like, well, i don't really have i don't really create any emissions because i'm a digital business, and so, you know, there's nothing there. and then they were explaining to me how this works. so please do explain it to our listeners as well.
Uta: yes. i mean, it's so easy to forget or to not even think about that actually everything that we're doing online, every single email that we send, every website that we load, every youtube video that we watch, that everything that all takes electricity, it takes energy, and it takes storage space to show all of that to us. and, so that is, where energy is being used up, and it accumulates quite a bit because there is just so much data, you know, going back and forth all the time. so, this is why just be becoming being conscious of that or being aware that just because we live having a digital business and we don't take drive the car and we don't take flights to visit clients doesn't mean that we don't use our resources and energy. we do. so this is where it's really, important to be mindful of. and, in the, green website field or sustainability field, there are several, agencies now that actually specifically focus on building low carbon websites because that is important to, you know, the the the world consumers and businesses.
Sarah: yeah. thank you. thanks so much. i have actually a specific question, that is gonna help me, but hopefully also others. what about videos? i think when we embed videos in our website, that's that's really bad, even worse than than pictures. right? is that correct? and and if it is, well, what do we do instead? like, it's very awkward to just include the link and then have people have to go to youtube. so what what do you recommend to clients who want to embed a video on not on a home page. i think that's kind of passe. it's but but maybe on a replay page or, you know, something like that.
Uta: well, they're embedding the the video. you're actually just creating the link. you're not uploading the video and the, you know, the huge file to your website. so it's not being stored on the website. so whether it's being watched, you know, via your website or on youtube directly isn't really going to make much of a difference in that sense because it's just displaying it for your website, but it's not stored in any way on your website.
Sarah: okay. so it's the storage part that would be bad, that would yeah. slow down my website and and be, yeah, create more. okay. so so the embedding part doesn't is not the problem. okay.
Uta: no.
Sarah: good. so you host it on youtube and then you just get the the embed code.
Uta: exactly.
Sarah: okay. great. wonderful. what other maintenance tasks did we did we not mention yet any anything else that comes to mind before we wrap up here and you give us a little sneak peek?
Uta: i mean, you're going to hear, i'm sure, a lot about that, you know, tonight in your workshop about seo. the website maintenance, is also really important for seo. so, you know, keeping checking, for example, that you don't have any dead links, for example, on the website. so this is also something can be done automatically. there are loads of websites that offer that, to remove any of the links. and then adding content monthly to really update your website, which is good for seo. searching engines love it that you have new content. if you don't really keep your website up to date and refresh it with content and information, then that doesn't send a good signal to the search engines. so that is another really key aspect of website maintenance is to continue to adding content, valuable content that, you know, your clients want to want to read.
Sarah: that's a good point. because i kinda stopped blogging for a few months now. we need to go back there. because, yeah, i do have a few keywords that do really well. but what you're saying is, like, if i slow down and that i don't add new content, then that might slow down as well because the basically, the the the search crawls are gonna be like, well, this website is not active anymore.
Uta: exactly.
Sarah: okay. wow. interesting. well, give us a sneak preview of the workshop and what we're gonna go into there.
Uta: yes. so in the workshop, we're going to go through more, all the activities of how to actually do the backup of the of the website, going to also share, a very easy process of how to add an accessibility wizard widget to your website, which is, of course, really important for websites in general, but also specifically for conscious businesses to make it really accessible to everyone. how to back up your website, your wordpress website, if, if you don't know how to do that. also, that's, a free backup plugin, so you don't need to pay any fees for that. same with the accessibility widget. also, that's also for free. so there's more hands on, activities looking at, you know, one's websites. i'm also there, of course, to answer any questions, that people might have regarding to the back end workings of the wordpress website.
Sarah: yeah. i love that. and as always, on these collab workshops, we're gonna be putting people into breakout rooms. and i can i just thought of this now is, like, have them as accountability buddies going forward? so after the workshop, maybe they can check-in with each other and say, hey, did you upload that plug in and and and give each other feedback on their websites? i think it's so valuable to have this peer collaboration going on as well.
Uta: absolutely. yes. definitely.
Sarah: well, thanks so much for, being here, uta. and and please let people know where they can find you, and then i'll tell them how to get to the workshop as well. but go ahead and please share your website and any resources.
Uta: right. yeah. well, thank you so much, sarah, for having me, and i'm really looking forward to the workshop. and, yes. so people can find me on carrot and karma dot com. and my name is ute de montes, and i'm also on linkedin.
Sarah: love that that website name, carrot and karma. very easy to remember because it just, yeah, stands out. yeah. it's wonderful. and and so if you feel like, yes, i definitely would like to, come to the workshop and and learn more and then actually roll back your sleeves and do some of these things that that just mentioned, go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and as always, these workshops are held in our community, the humane marketing circle. and so you can join just for this session for a small donation. and, yeah, it would be lovely to see you. so this is on march fifth. and, again, you go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and we look forward to seeing you there. mhmm. so much for being here, hoota.
Uta: thank you.
Speaker 3: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. please find out more about yuta and her work at carrot and karma dot com. and again, we'd love to have you join us in our community for this collab workshop with utah. you can sign up for a small donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. you find the show notes of this at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero four. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and soon my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.
3 00:00:12.940 --> 00:00:13.320 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.
4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:14.399 Andy Mort: About this? Yeah.
5 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:24.780 Sarah Santacroce: We always have great and deep conversations, and so I couldn't think of a better person than you to talk about this concept of
6 00:00:24.930 --> 00:00:33.970 Sarah Santacroce: slowing things down, and the question whether a slow business is a humane business and what all of that involves. So
7 00:00:34.290 --> 00:00:52.720 Sarah Santacroce: it's good to have you here. Why don't you explain a little bit how you got into this concept of being a slow business coach? It's been a few years now. And yeah, how has this evolved for you? And how does it
8 00:00:52.930 --> 00:00:59.850 Sarah Santacroce: feel in in your business? And how do people react to it? So explain it a little bit.
9 00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:03.999 Andy Mort: Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I didn't
10 00:01:04.129 --> 00:01:10.419 Andy Mort: necessarily set out to to do or to be. It's just something that has evolved really
11 00:01:11.190 --> 00:01:14.769 Andy Mort: over time of like working with people. And I've always worked with
12 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:20.740 Andy Mort: introverted and highly sensitive people. So those who.
13 00:01:21.570 --> 00:01:28.660 Andy Mort: I guess, find the the pace of modern life, maybe a bit overstimulating at times.
14 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:33.769 Andy Mort: And so there's been like this necessity of of slowness
15 00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:38.709 Andy Mort: for the sake of people's nervous systems. And you know, just being able to
16 00:01:39.370 --> 00:01:43.999 Andy Mort: focus and get clear on. You know what's important and what isn't, and all of that kind of thing.
17 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:50.250 Andy Mort: But also there's been this, I guess increasing awareness in me that this is really
18 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.650 Andy Mort: bad for all of us, and this whole mentality of.
19 00:01:53.800 --> 00:02:00.690 Andy Mort: you know, move fast and break things which has come from this sort of tech world and
20 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:08.120 Andy Mort: has a is an appropriate tool in many situations in that world. But it, it seems to have
21 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:16.460 Andy Mort: kind of permeated everything. And so there's this very reactive energy that I just feel in the world
22 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:25.229 Andy Mort: around me. And that kind of comes into me. And it's in people. And this needs to be productive. And all of these words that you know you
23 00:02:25.490 --> 00:02:31.149 Andy Mort: obviously use a lot. And you're sort of rebelling against in many ways in what you do.
24 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:40.479 Andy Mort: yeah. And so I guess what I do is is help people identify, you know. Where is that energy
25 00:02:40.580 --> 00:02:45.230 Andy Mort: taking me away from what I want to be doing and who I am, and
26 00:02:45.550 --> 00:02:52.050 Andy Mort: the impact that I might want to have with my work or in my family in my relationship.
27 00:02:52.310 --> 00:02:59.669 Andy Mort: whatever it might be. And then to yeah, put into practice ways of
28 00:03:02.330 --> 00:03:06.270 Andy Mort: yeah, slowing, slowing down and making space
29 00:03:06.660 --> 00:03:08.639 Andy Mort: for the important things, and to
30 00:03:08.930 --> 00:03:20.069 Andy Mort: make space to do the things that matter more slowly as well. And this, yeah, this twist on the old productivity thing of like do more in less time. I think I love the idea of
31 00:03:21.230 --> 00:03:26.469 Andy Mort: doing doing less more slowly, because it allows you to go
32 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.559 Andy Mort: deep. And it allows you to.
33 00:03:28.970 --> 00:03:30.519 Andy Mort: Yeah, get into the
34 00:03:30.870 --> 00:03:35.650 Andy Mort: the depths of it and the richness of it, and to do what what you feel
35 00:03:35.880 --> 00:03:38.300 Andy Mort: is important and that kind of thing. So.
36 00:03:38.690 --> 00:03:45.220 Andy Mort: Yes. So I have a community that yeah, my haven community is the real hub of of what I do.
37 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:48.900 Andy Mort: So yeah, kind of coaching and group.
38 00:03:49.440 --> 00:03:55.899 Andy Mort: I'd say workshops. It's not really workshops. It's more sort of spaces to gather and to explore together.
39 00:03:56.230 --> 00:04:00.200 Andy Mort: And yeah, everything kind of flows out from there.
40 00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:25.200 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, that's so good to hear, because it it means already that you're not just. You know, the crazy one who came up with this term, and people are like, what is he smoking? It really shows. No, there's people who resonate with that. And and you know they want to be in community with others that want to look at business more slowly. And
41 00:04:25.290 --> 00:04:31.209 Sarah Santacroce: I love what you said. It's it's not just slowing things down, but doing less
42 00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:49.130 Sarah Santacroce: and doing those things even more slowly. So it's really the doing. Less part, I guess, has to do with creating the spaciousness for other things as well. And that's kind of what I talk about in the business. Like we're human book. It's it's not just this.
43 00:04:49.960 --> 00:05:05.079 Sarah Santacroce: you know, creating spaciousness to then like back in the days, you know, the 4 h work week kind of approach where? Where? You then, just, you know, spend your money by sitting on a beach somewhere in the Philippines.
44 00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:23.559 Sarah Santacroce: It really is creating spaciousness to be more human, to have the time to reconnect with humans or with nature, or to become an activist, or, you know, like spaciousness outside of your business, so that
45 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:28.559 Sarah Santacroce: you can do the things a human wants to do and and find that
46 00:05:28.710 --> 00:05:39.420 Sarah Santacroce: I think almost like if we don't create that spaciousness, we don't remember what as humans, we could also do instead of just working.
47 00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:39.960 Andy Mort: Yeah.
48 00:05:39.960 --> 00:05:41.469 Sarah Santacroce: What does that bring up for you.
49 00:05:41.470 --> 00:05:44.960 Andy Mort: I mean, and I and I think what you
50 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:59.559 Andy Mort: emphasize and do so well as well is is integrating that spaciousness and slowness into the into the model of how you do business. And I think that feels like you think about the 4 h work week. There's almost this separation.
51 00:06:00.675 --> 00:06:03.560 Andy Mort: Between the work you
52 00:06:03.810 --> 00:06:08.989 Andy Mort: like. Plough everything into this part of your life, so that then you can do this over here.
53 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:09.970 Sarah Santacroce: Right.
54 00:06:09.970 --> 00:06:10.770 Andy Mort: And
55 00:06:10.910 --> 00:06:16.900 Andy Mort: while I think you know you, you obviously want space around work and not to be working all the time.
56 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:22.559 Andy Mort: Actually, there's something that you can bring into the work that you do do, and the business that you're building
57 00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:32.619 Andy Mort: that puts that spaciousness and the the approach of slowness and marketing like you're human into that thing itself as well. So that
58 00:06:32.780 --> 00:06:38.139 Andy Mort: there's a yeah, you're bringing the whole of you to the whole of what you do.
59 00:06:38.340 --> 00:06:41.300 Andy Mort: And so, yeah, that kind of when you were just saying that
60 00:06:42.010 --> 00:06:48.180 Andy Mort: kind of brought that up for me and and them the modelling of a different way of
61 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:52.750 Andy Mort: doing the business itself, and thinking about business, and thinking about what
62 00:06:53.460 --> 00:07:10.019 Andy Mort: what your business is enabling, both in terms of what you're maybe producing, or the service that you're offering, but also in the lives and the model that you're setting, and the example that you're setting to those who do business with you, and how that can become a contagious thing that
63 00:07:10.410 --> 00:07:14.340 Andy Mort: that spreads. And yeah, that sense of
64 00:07:15.110 --> 00:07:22.939 Andy Mort: of slowness or spaciousness or stillness that people might take away from an encounter with you.
65 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:23.920 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.
66 00:07:24.050 --> 00:07:39.149 Andy Mort: Then goes out into the world. And I think, as I was saying before, there's like that other energy that I feel very strongly at the moment where that sort of hustle grind culture like, and the 4 h work week, you know, do things. Really, it doesn't matter what you do, but just make money so that you can
67 00:07:39.330 --> 00:07:42.190 Andy Mort: then go off and do your own thing, or whatever
68 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:46.950 Andy Mort: like that. That's a very palpable stress energy that
69 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:52.700 Andy Mort: I think also is contagious, and spreads and leaves us feeling a bit.
70 00:07:54.260 --> 00:07:56.789 Andy Mort: I don't know. Pulled in all sorts of different directions.
71 00:07:57.070 --> 00:08:00.589 Andy Mort: overwhelmed, burning out all of those things.
72 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:02.000 Andy Mort: Yeah.
73 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:08.270 Sarah Santacroce: I think it's kind of part of the old business model where we are working ourselves.
74 00:08:09.150 --> 00:08:26.500 Sarah Santacroce: you know, to exhaustion, and we were working so hard, and we. And then we hear this idea of working less. And so we squeeze even more into maybe less time. And then, obviously, we're so exhausted that we then need
75 00:08:26.620 --> 00:08:44.709 Sarah Santacroce: that rest. But that's not what to me a business like we're human. Looks like it is like you said so. Well, building the slowness and the spaciousness into the business, so that I don't feel exhausted. And then.
76 00:08:44.890 --> 00:09:12.099 Sarah Santacroce: you know, just need to lie on the beach. I still want to be able to have the energy to use my time, that I created the space that I created for for other things, whether it be yes, to, you know, refill my own battery by being in nature, but also by giving back. I think that to me is an important part. Is
77 00:09:13.790 --> 00:09:21.190 Sarah Santacroce: we talked just before we started to recording. And and I said, like business as usual is.
78 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:43.919 Sarah Santacroce: I'm so tired of that concept because it really is the time where business should not be as usual anymore. And we do have, you know, kind of this responsibility also as entrepreneurs to yeah, to find solutions to come up with creative ideas on how we can.
79 00:09:44.270 --> 00:09:53.710 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, make this world a better place for lack of better words. But that that's really what this is about. So I think.
80 00:09:53.900 --> 00:10:02.840 Sarah Santacroce: would you agree that the innovation and the creativity also needs that space?
81 00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:06.830 Sarah Santacroce: What have you seen with your community? What.
82 00:10:06.830 --> 00:10:12.990 Andy Mort: Yeah, absolutely. And I love making space for collaborative
83 00:10:13.250 --> 00:10:16.150 Andy Mort: innovation and creativity as well. And
84 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:19.870 Andy Mort: seeing what emerges. So one of the things that we do is
85 00:10:20.030 --> 00:10:25.829 Andy Mort: what I call a phrase maze where we just take we have a monthly theme.
86 00:10:26.020 --> 00:10:31.399 Andy Mort: So this month we're recording this in February. Our monthly theme is confidence. It's a very, very broad
87 00:10:31.520 --> 00:10:35.270 Andy Mort: theme. And then can I break that down into
88 00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:42.319 Andy Mort: you know what? What are some phrases or idioms, or quotes or ideas associated with confidence that come to mind.
89 00:10:42.770 --> 00:10:49.610 Andy Mort: and then kind of take them, break them down a bit, try and play with them and talk about, you know.
90 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:54.569 Andy Mort: Okay, what does that bring up for you that's going on in your life at the moment. And
91 00:10:55.390 --> 00:10:57.199 Andy Mort: those kinds of things.
92 00:10:57.670 --> 00:11:04.640 Andy Mort: And then how can we maybe play with this creatively? Is there a is there a poem in this? Is there some kind of
93 00:11:05.030 --> 00:11:08.749 Andy Mort: painting, or a song, or whatever that you could just
94 00:11:09.010 --> 00:11:14.230 Andy Mort: have a go with the yeah playing with experimenting with, and
95 00:11:14.770 --> 00:11:21.370 Andy Mort: both in the discussions that we have, and then the sort of follow up creative expression.
96 00:11:21.950 --> 00:11:24.310 Andy Mort: You just see things that you would never be able to
97 00:11:24.610 --> 00:11:31.649 Andy Mort: imagine coming up from the outset. And I love this sort of experimental approach to life in general, but like
98 00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:38.400 Andy Mort: trusting, trusting the hive, trusting the collaborative potential.
99 00:11:38.650 --> 00:11:44.150 Andy Mort: the and when you talk about, you know, solutions to issues and the importance of business
100 00:11:44.350 --> 00:11:52.930 Andy Mort: being involved in looking at the the wider picture of how the world is right now, and thinking, you know, what role do we play in
101 00:11:53.810 --> 00:11:56.750 Andy Mort: changing the direction that we're maybe moving in or
102 00:11:56.980 --> 00:11:59.360 Andy Mort: creating a better future, or whatever it is.
103 00:12:00.415 --> 00:12:05.030 Andy Mort: Actually, I think, collaboration working with
104 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:15.319 Andy Mort: one another as partners, whatever that looks like, whether that's a business partnership or just socially doing stuff together
105 00:12:15.670 --> 00:12:20.640 Andy Mort: with a within values and with a vision, or whatever it is
106 00:12:21.170 --> 00:12:27.330 Andy Mort: that's so important. And again that turns business as usual on its head, because.
107 00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:35.409 Andy Mort: you know, seeing it won't mention who it is. But like the there's something going on at the moment that I'm looking into that
108 00:12:35.810 --> 00:12:42.010 Andy Mort: is a. It's this extraction that business people have to see
109 00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:53.360 Andy Mort: like the old way is seeing opportunities, being opportunistic and thinking, how can I capitalize on that and turn it back to me and make money from it?
110 00:12:54.118 --> 00:12:56.510 Andy Mort: Rather than how can I
111 00:12:56.870 --> 00:13:03.950 Andy Mort: be part of this movement. How can I, you know, contribute to this? What what does it need from me in order for this thing that I
112 00:13:04.060 --> 00:13:09.199 Andy Mort: connect with and believe in? Maybe it's an idea, or like a social movement, or whatever.
113 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:13.749 Andy Mort: Yeah, what role can I take in that? That
114 00:13:14.050 --> 00:13:18.239 Andy Mort: makes me part of it rather than makes me possess it.
115 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:25.070 Andy Mort: And I think that it's yeah, really important to start seeing business
116 00:13:25.430 --> 00:13:28.249 Andy Mort: through that eye through those eyes as well.
117 00:13:29.030 --> 00:13:30.040 Andy Mort: Yeah, if that.
118 00:13:30.400 --> 00:13:42.499 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up collaboration. And and this movement from we me to we that I mentioned in the in the book as well is kind of like.
119 00:13:43.610 --> 00:13:52.150 Sarah Santacroce: it's so aligned with slowing things down, because in order to collaborate, you do need to
120 00:13:52.460 --> 00:14:12.939 Sarah Santacroce: slow things down and actually let relationships develop right? Because the old way. And I'm definitely raising my hand here. The old way was affiliate marketing. That was like the big thing. And it was like, Oh, we are collaborating, but we weren't really collaborating, because we were just trying to
121 00:14:13.090 --> 00:14:29.440 Sarah Santacroce: tap into each other's reach to get more money for each of us, right? And and yeah, that's just that's just not human humane, whatever ethical even be.
122 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.100 Sarah Santacroce: So in order to actually.
123 00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:41.870 Sarah Santacroce: yeah, create and nurture these relationships. Well, you need time. You, you know, an email exchange is not going to create
124 00:14:41.870 --> 00:15:05.360 Sarah Santacroce: relationship trust, based relationship. You need to invest the time in it. So that's another thing that is part of the business. But if you don't have the spaciousness to invest there, then it will always be transactional, and you will not actually be able to.
125 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:06.310 Sarah Santacroce: you know.
126 00:15:06.350 --> 00:15:12.900 Sarah Santacroce: collaborate or create a movement or create the community because you don't have the time. You're always short on time. And you're always
127 00:15:12.950 --> 00:15:18.650 Sarah Santacroce: yeah struggling to create more transactions. Really.
128 00:15:18.900 --> 00:15:23.110 Andy Mort: I think it's such a good point. Yeah, that transactional.
129 00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:30.630 Andy Mort: because it is yet that affiliate model or the you work with people to combine
130 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:34.540 Andy Mort: audiences or whatever it is. But yeah, ultimately, it's a
131 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.950 Andy Mort: I'll scratch your back. You scratch my back. And yeah.
132 00:15:38.300 --> 00:15:46.170 Andy Mort: you don't have time, as you say, for like relationships. And you know, anything really
133 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:50.990 Andy Mort: valuable at a human level in life takes time.
134 00:15:51.410 --> 00:15:57.700 Andy Mort: and it takes a lot of that liminal in between space that
135 00:15:58.280 --> 00:16:10.340 Andy Mort: is not controlled in the sense of being outcome, oriented or like. We've got to achieve this in the time that we are together. It's like, actually, you think about the most meaningful friendships
136 00:16:10.450 --> 00:16:14.979 Andy Mort: they're full of just time with and just time being.
137 00:16:15.140 --> 00:16:21.219 Andy Mort: And again, like some of these gatherings that we have.
138 00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:27.050 Andy Mort: it's and it takes a huge amount of I guess
139 00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:39.969 Andy Mort: faith in the process, or just allowing almost surrender. Just allowing things. Okay. Whatever is going to come out of this is going to come out of it, and I can't contrive it or control it from the outset. But I can trust that
140 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.020 Andy Mort: hike.
141 00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:46.740 Andy Mort: Whatever will be will be here, and where. The more I've experienced doing that.
142 00:16:47.030 --> 00:16:49.540 Andy Mort: the more surprised I've been, and the more
143 00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:52.789 Andy Mort: like interesting things have come out of
144 00:16:53.660 --> 00:16:59.940 Andy Mort: gatherings, or, you know, conversations, or whatever. It is really difficult to
145 00:17:00.300 --> 00:17:07.050 Andy Mort: to remember that like you're like, right, need an agenda need a structure. And and it's like. Yes, structure can help with
146 00:17:07.369 --> 00:17:11.249 Andy Mort: keeping things going to a certain degree. But it's like you need to know where
147 00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:17.089 Andy Mort: planning becomes over planning, and it actually suffocates what might come out of it.
148 00:17:18.280 --> 00:17:23.019 Sarah Santacroce: I talk about this new business intimacy, and that
149 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:44.519 Sarah Santacroce: is that exactly what you're talking about is like, usually in business. We have this way of being, which is very task oriented like, even if we do collaborate. There's, you know, a way to collaborate the old way, which is like, Okay, here's the agenda. Here's what we need to do. It's all about the doing right instead of
150 00:17:44.590 --> 00:17:59.979 Sarah Santacroce: yeah, allowing the time to just be and get to know each other. And and and yeah, that takes courage. I think that's the word came up when you were speaking. I'm like it takes a lot of courage to.
151 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:08.230 Sarah Santacroce: you know. Bring this new business intimacy where we're all wired to think. Well, business should be this way.
152 00:18:08.430 --> 00:18:30.530 Sarah Santacroce: Business should be transactional. Business should be professional business should be, you know, a certain way. And so all of a sudden, we come along. And we're like, we're, you know, gonna do things slowly and more relationship based. And and it's just like people are like, what what's going on here. But I think.
153 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:51.979 Sarah Santacroce: I think, yeah, that's to me. That's that's a business like, we're human. That is like, we're actually being humans in our business. And it's also more humane to us, because then our business is just an extension of who we are, and as solopreneurs. Isn't that, isn't that what we want right.
154 00:18:51.980 --> 00:19:00.489 Andy Mort: So, and it speaks to. I always remember something that you said in the workshop that we did a while back, which was
155 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.339 Andy Mort: just because it works. It doesn't mean it works for you.
156 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.120 Andy Mort: And I think that's something important
157 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:16.709 Andy Mort: when maybe having conversations with people about like, why would you? Why would you set up your business like this? Or why would you approach your business like this? Because actually.
158 00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:22.989 Andy Mort: business as usual, or these old ways still work to some degree. Or there are these things that work
159 00:19:24.010 --> 00:19:32.409 Andy Mort: and actually putting in that bit. But it doesn't work for me. There's something about that that. Yeah, it doesn't fit who I am, or what I believe
160 00:19:32.800 --> 00:19:37.669 Andy Mort: a business should contribute or should be doing in the world.
161 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.469 Andy Mort: And so I love that little. It's a
162 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:46.169 Andy Mort: an invitation to gentle rebelliousness. I think I see it as because.
163 00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:48.429 Andy Mort: yeah, it allows you to put yourself
164 00:19:48.940 --> 00:19:58.259 Andy Mort: and your own beliefs and your values and the things that matter to you at the heart of your business rather than being like. What are these strategies and tactics that everyone else is doing
165 00:19:58.370 --> 00:20:07.829 Andy Mort: that do maybe make a lot of money, or they make bring quick results, or whatever. So. But how do I feel, or how would I feel if I
166 00:20:08.260 --> 00:20:10.630 Andy Mort: achieved that in that way. And it's like.
167 00:20:10.630 --> 00:20:11.450 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.
168 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:20.849 Andy Mort: And from past experience I feel a bit icky, and I feel a bit like Oh, that didn't doesn't feel good to have done it like that.
169 00:20:20.990 --> 00:20:26.139 Andy Mort: So what? What would feel good to me? And you know, to me and to lots of people.
170 00:20:26.310 --> 00:20:32.230 Andy Mort: that kind of the slowness, the relational yeah, that spaciousness. Actually.
171 00:20:32.420 --> 00:20:36.350 Andy Mort: how can you make a business work with that at the heart of it? Is the question.
172 00:20:37.145 --> 00:20:37.940 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.
173 00:20:38.530 --> 00:20:59.679 Sarah Santacroce: And to me, like the the 1st 2 books, marketing, like, we're, human and selling, like, we're human were very much about our ideal clients and bringing this, you know, gentleness and humane approach and ethical approach to our ideal clients. And business like we're human, is going to be more about
174 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:24.869 Sarah Santacroce: us being in this business and and, like you said yes, finding out what works for us right, and feeling humane, and not exhausted and overwhelmed in our business so that we can actually do our life's work. And I used the peace sign as kind of part of the journey, because the idea is really to
175 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:44.819 Sarah Santacroce: find your inner peace so that you can then bring change to the outer world. How do you see the relationship between inner peace and and you know, slowness. What have you seen from from your community, from your clients?
176 00:21:45.600 --> 00:21:47.880 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, is this part of the journey.
177 00:21:49.350 --> 00:21:51.410 Andy Mort: That's a great question. Yeah,
178 00:21:53.650 --> 00:21:57.279 Andy Mort: yeah. And I guess I like, I'd like to think in.
179 00:21:58.170 --> 00:22:01.800 Andy Mort: I guess spirals and circles rather than
180 00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:07.000 Andy Mort: straight lines, and so that when you talk about the here, the journey.
181 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:13.020 Andy Mort: it's a kind of coming coming back round and like what you know what comes first, st the inner peace or the slowness.
182 00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:22.480 Andy Mort: It's all a mix, and it's all kind of yeah. You're experimenting with things that bring you.
183 00:22:23.410 --> 00:22:30.813 Andy Mort: I suppose, bring you to a place of how we're defining inner peace, maybe integrity.
184 00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:41.000 Andy Mort: a sense of satisfaction with how, how I am doing things or what I
185 00:22:41.190 --> 00:22:45.370 Andy Mort: have let go, and I think that's a big part of the equation is
186 00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:48.299 Andy Mort: being at peace with the things that you
187 00:22:48.450 --> 00:22:56.490 Andy Mort: don't have the capacity or the time or the energy to do, and almost actively letting those things go.
188 00:22:56.790 --> 00:23:01.200 Andy Mort: because obviously slowing down requires, they said
189 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:09.569 Andy Mort: admission, or this acknowledgement that I can't do everything you know, and there are loads and loads of things that I would love to be able to do. It's not just.
190 00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:20.009 Andy Mort: you know, pressures that other people are putting on me that oh, you need to do this. You should do that. It's like, no, there's loads of things in life that I would absolutely love to have a go at.
191 00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:26.899 Andy Mort: But I can't. You know I'm a finite human being. And so really, coming to a place of peace
192 00:23:27.260 --> 00:23:39.010 Andy Mort: with that is important. And yeah, I think there's a there's a a point of.
193 00:23:40.780 --> 00:23:44.010 Andy Mort: I guess calmness and satisfaction in
194 00:23:45.890 --> 00:23:50.710 Andy Mort: again the gentle rebelliousness of letting go of things and of saying.
195 00:23:50.830 --> 00:23:53.799 Andy Mort: Do you know what these are? The? These are the things that matter.
196 00:23:54.010 --> 00:23:58.830 Andy Mort: There's just a few sort of real keystone ideas or
197 00:23:59.070 --> 00:24:03.970 Andy Mort: things that are part of my business or part of my life that actually there my
198 00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:08.640 Andy Mort: focus right now they're the things I'm committing to, and everything else can
199 00:24:09.110 --> 00:24:11.889 Andy Mort: can fall away. And and that's okay.
200 00:24:13.270 --> 00:24:15.270 Andy Mort: So yeah, I don't know if that answers that question. But.
201 00:24:15.270 --> 00:24:19.299 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, no, it totally doesn't. And
202 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:37.570 Sarah Santacroce: it made me think of the word busy. You know how this is such a common word that we kind of throw around like a batch of honor that is part of the business world. Oh, if I'm busy, that means I'm successful, or that's how it's perceived.
203 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:44.750 Sarah Santacroce: and so kind of making peace, making inner peace with this idea of
204 00:24:45.220 --> 00:25:10.500 Sarah Santacroce: maybe not wanting to be busy or wanting to be. What I start to say now is, I'm busy with life. And so that kind of, you know, can people can decide on their own? Well, what does that mean? Because if you're clearly, if you're saying I'm not busy. Well, people see that as something very bad, and they're like, Oh, no, I'm so sorry.
205 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:10.820 Andy Mort: Yeah.
206 00:25:10.820 --> 00:25:36.229 Sarah Santacroce: Oh, your business is falling apart. You're not busy. So just making peace with this busyness thing and saying, Well, I'm not busy, but I am very focused, and I have very much clarity around the things that I do want to invest my time in. And and so it's, it's yeah. It doesn't give, give you this
207 00:25:36.620 --> 00:25:42.560 Sarah Santacroce: overwhelmed energy of that busyness does actually. So yeah.
208 00:25:42.560 --> 00:25:46.399 Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that. Yes, the words that we use are so
209 00:25:46.810 --> 00:25:50.050 Andy Mort: impactful, aren't they like? And yeah, I'm very aware of
210 00:25:50.280 --> 00:25:52.400 Andy Mort: someone says, how? How are things going?
211 00:25:52.710 --> 00:25:54.449 Andy Mort: So I'm busy.
212 00:25:54.450 --> 00:25:54.800 Sarah Santacroce: Okay.
213 00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:56.290 Andy Mort: Why have I said that?
214 00:25:56.845 --> 00:25:58.919 Andy Mort: But yeah, and also the
215 00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:06.489 Andy Mort: the yeah, really focusing in on the things that you want to do in the way that you want to do them. So like, recently, I've been
216 00:26:06.890 --> 00:26:12.580 Andy Mort: doing a lot more kind of hands on, I guess, creative.
217 00:26:12.850 --> 00:26:16.059 Andy Mort: So I've been doing a lot of collaging which I want to
218 00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:21.590 Andy Mort: been using. We have like a community Zine, that I put out once a month, and so I've been doing that for that.
219 00:26:21.850 --> 00:26:26.810 Andy Mort: But I also want to do more of that, for, like blog posts.
220 00:26:27.320 --> 00:26:29.869 Andy Mort: kind of featured images, and things that
221 00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:38.279 Andy Mort: until now, like constantly thinking like, oh, what? What's the most efficient way to to do that? Or like social media posts like? How can I
222 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.030 Andy Mort: do them quicker? And all of that kind of thing.
223 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.740 Andy Mort: And obviously, you know, generative AI is A is a big part of that question as well, or the conversation
224 00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:52.359 Andy Mort: there of like, how can you do things more efficiently and
225 00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:56.210 Andy Mort: be more productive and get more out there? And all of that stuff?
226 00:26:56.370 --> 00:26:57.489 Andy Mort: And actually.
227 00:26:58.060 --> 00:27:06.829 Andy Mort: yeah, I'm kind of asking. That question of myself is that useful? Does that does doing more and doing it more quickly.
228 00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:13.919 Andy Mort: give me more satisfaction, or like a sense of connection to what it is that I'm doing
229 00:27:15.350 --> 00:27:21.290 Andy Mort: and if not, what do I want to do more? Slowly? Again coming back to that question. Actually, I want to
230 00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:26.419 Andy Mort: put some time, and my humanity into some of these things that
231 00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:30.250 Andy Mort: we're being promised. We can do quicker if we take our humanity out of it.
232 00:27:31.220 --> 00:27:36.310 Andy Mort: And I really appreciate, you know, when you can tell that somebody has really put
233 00:27:36.710 --> 00:27:40.360 Andy Mort: themselves into a blog post or
234 00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:46.929 Andy Mort: even a social media post. It's like, Oh, I can see the human there, and I think it's becoming more and more obvious like.
235 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:53.629 Andy Mort: however, you know, AI is getting more advanced. But there's still something of the uncanny about it that
236 00:27:53.860 --> 00:28:01.190 Andy Mort: is often quite evident or identifiable. And so
237 00:28:01.350 --> 00:28:07.709 Andy Mort: I don't know. I just see there's this moment that we're entering now, where there's this
238 00:28:07.860 --> 00:28:11.059 Andy Mort: call for more humanness, and there's a
239 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:22.469 Andy Mort: an appetite for it whether we're consciously aware of that appetite or not. We see people. And it's like, Oh, yeah, I want people I want. There's a human there. And
240 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:27.490 Andy Mort: I just find that, yeah, really attractive and compelling.
241 00:28:28.060 --> 00:28:28.780 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.
242 00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:53.180 Sarah Santacroce: And I'm glad you brought up AI. That was going to be my last question as well like, How does that play into all of this slowness, where everything we see out there is more, quicker and more efficient and got to do more. Right? So yeah, I love how you brought that up. And then also the yeah, the need
243 00:28:53.700 --> 00:29:05.209 Sarah Santacroce: for the human connection. And I think that's what we're both doing in our communities. And I think that's really a big part of business like we're human to bring in.
244 00:29:05.670 --> 00:29:08.580 Sarah Santacroce: not just a humanness in text, because
245 00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:23.700 Sarah Santacroce: again, that can be easily replaced by by AI, but the humanness in like real connection, even, you know. Obviously, it's going to be still using technology. So online.
246 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:38.089 Sarah Santacroce: But but also they're slowing things down. We recently started introducing meaningful questions in our meetups. So they're based on
247 00:29:38.090 --> 00:29:58.819 Sarah Santacroce: on a deck of cards by Thomas, whom I've interviewed recently, and they're called who cards. And so we pick 2 cards, and they have meaningful questions on them. And so we just have, you know, basically half an hour conversations. And these questions are not business questions. They're personal questions, right?
248 00:29:58.820 --> 00:30:08.149 Sarah Santacroce: But it allows the community members to yeah, to really get to know one another and to talk about their worldview and
249 00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:13.450 Sarah Santacroce: and things like that, that matter in terms of building these
250 00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:21.879 Sarah Santacroce: relationships, this new business intimacy. And and yeah, even if I think about
251 00:30:21.910 --> 00:30:51.089 Sarah Santacroce: you know how I used to sell my workshops or programs, and how I'm selling them now like before. It really was a transaction click here, and you know, buy now. And now I'm for the marketing, like we're human program. No, I am always wanting to talk to the person right? It's like this. This business intimacy is like, well, yes, it's a group program. But I want to, you know, get to meet you. And I think
252 00:30:51.090 --> 00:31:04.130 Sarah Santacroce: that kind of approach people will start to look for and see. Am I being heard and seen, or am I just, you know, a number. And people just want the money.
253 00:31:04.477 --> 00:31:05.519 Andy Mort: How have you?
254 00:31:06.090 --> 00:31:10.490 Andy Mort: How have you found that? Because I aware of a
255 00:31:11.310 --> 00:31:16.779 Andy Mort: again a conditioning that we have, you know, when someone wants a conversation, especially in a business context
256 00:31:16.890 --> 00:31:21.280 Andy Mort: like my, I'd go into sort of a they're going to want to
257 00:31:21.450 --> 00:31:24.490 Andy Mort: sell something to me, because I'm so used to
258 00:31:26.130 --> 00:31:45.969 Andy Mort: yeah, it's almost the whole persuasion or influence movement of like, you need to get on the phone and actually talk to someone so that you can force the sale. And so and obviously, that's not. It's the opposite of what you're doing, because it's like I want to connect. And I'm the same. I want to sort of yeah, reach out, have a human connection with people.
259 00:31:45.970 --> 00:31:46.490 Sarah Santacroce: Right.
260 00:31:47.330 --> 00:31:53.219 Andy Mort: And yeah, I wonder, have you experienced people's yeah sort of poised.
261 00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:57.266 Sarah Santacroce: Actually inbound. So I'm not, you know,
262 00:31:58.110 --> 00:32:18.000 Sarah Santacroce: proposing this conversation, but it's it's an option on the sales page. So they know that is a conversation they they pretty much already decided. Yes, I want to join, but there's no way that you can just buy now. They have to sign up to talk to me, and then
263 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:46.420 Sarah Santacroce: I don't have to. I'm not selling anything because they've seen the program details. And they basically just want to find out, am IA good fit for this program? Oftentimes they just want to meet me, and, you know, have a conversation. And so that's what we do. We just have a conversation. And then sometimes it's about figuring out, how, how can we set up a humane payment plan? So it's very.
264 00:32:47.270 --> 00:32:54.989 Sarah Santacroce: I think it it really lowers or or it calms people's nervous systems because they know what to expect.
265 00:32:55.210 --> 00:33:17.470 Sarah Santacroce: and so giving them so much information upfront, and then just saying, hey? You want to talk about this. I know this is a great program. I've been running this for many years. Let's talk about it. If this is a good fit. So so that's usually how how it works. I know I see what you mean like by
266 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:41.780 Sarah Santacroce: imposing this conversation. I don't think people would. Yeah, they they would probably be like, no, she wants to sell me something. And unfortunately, yeah, that's the reputation that business has. Right? It's like, Oh, you're gonna pitch me your stuff? So so I think what would work in this case is
267 00:33:42.220 --> 00:33:44.779 Sarah Santacroce: is picking a specific topic
268 00:33:45.460 --> 00:34:11.260 Sarah Santacroce: and say, how do you feel about what's happening in the world, or this specific thing like what we just addressed right at the beginning, before we started recording like, that would be a great topic to reach out to someone and say, Hey, what's your take on this? Have you seen this? And then just have a conversation? But then obviously not comments at the end, pitch your program, but just connect.
269 00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:15.649 Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah. And that sort of resonates with the
270 00:34:15.830 --> 00:34:19.349 Andy Mort: the who cards, as you're saying as well. And
271 00:34:19.710 --> 00:34:23.249 Andy Mort: the it's like exploring the prompts that we do where
272 00:34:24.090 --> 00:34:29.359 Andy Mort: actually they might feel irrelevant to business, or they might feel like
273 00:34:29.790 --> 00:34:43.749 Andy Mort: what a waste of time you're talking about something that's irrelevant to this thing that really matters. And it's like, actually, that thing will come up if it needs to come up. And these are like, you know, train tracks along which the conversation
274 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.840 Andy Mort: goes, and you'll see the things that are
275 00:34:47.100 --> 00:34:50.729 Andy Mort: in that environment around people as they start to talk. And then
276 00:34:51.030 --> 00:34:56.920 Andy Mort: you, you might explore that, and it might give rise to something completely unexpected.
277 00:34:57.100 --> 00:34:57.720 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.
278 00:34:57.720 --> 00:35:00.470 Andy Mort: Saying earlier. So yeah, I really love that.
279 00:35:00.470 --> 00:35:25.059 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, one more thing I just thought of that I started doing is like, when I have an open workshop where I invite people outside of the community. I don't offer the recording for this workshop only to members, and so I do get some pushback every now and then for that, because people are just not used to it.
280 00:35:25.060 --> 00:35:33.340 Sarah Santacroce: You know they feel like, well, everybody else is offering a recording. Why aren't you? And and my answer is that I really.
281 00:35:33.670 --> 00:35:48.259 Sarah Santacroce: this is not just content. This is not just information. It really is part like, what I'm trying to show is the business like, we're human. So you're coming in as a human, and you participate. And
282 00:35:48.460 --> 00:35:56.710 Sarah Santacroce: and you know you get into breakout rooms and have conversations with peers about this topic. And and so.
283 00:35:57.110 --> 00:36:11.159 Sarah Santacroce: being in the in presence on Zoom is actually really important. I understand that in terms of you know, everybody's lives and time zones. Sometimes it doesn't work.
284 00:36:12.020 --> 00:36:19.060 Sarah Santacroce: But then you're really not like, just by getting the information you're not getting the actual message.
285 00:36:19.060 --> 00:36:19.410 Andy Mort: Yeah.
286 00:36:19.410 --> 00:36:21.960 Sarah Santacroce: Of that event or work.
287 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:32.589 Andy Mort: More to it, isn't there? Yes, which is, you can't put into words the difference. It's like so like with the Zine that I mentioned earlier, which is called coming to our senses.
288 00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.419 Andy Mort: I've been doing. There's like a Pdf
289 00:36:36.210 --> 00:36:38.430 Andy Mort: visual version that I put out each month.
290 00:36:38.620 --> 00:36:45.450 Andy Mort: But I've also done audio and video versions. So I, you know, compose some music and then narrate what's.
291 00:36:45.990 --> 00:36:46.340 Sarah Santacroce: Content.
292 00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:58.500 Andy Mort: From the Zine over the top, and it's usually about 40 min long. And so we have a session on Zoom together. At the end of the month where I just play that video. And we just sit together and watch it.
293 00:36:59.010 --> 00:37:01.979 Andy Mort: And yeah, people have mentioned, like
294 00:37:02.490 --> 00:37:07.150 Andy Mort: having watched previous ones just on the sort of Youtube video
295 00:37:07.350 --> 00:37:12.729 Andy Mort: and then coming to their 1st live session with it, like the difference
296 00:37:13.190 --> 00:37:21.460 Andy Mort: it makes being there with others watching it live, and whether it's sort of the fact, you're not being distracted by a million one other things.
297 00:37:22.410 --> 00:37:23.550 Andy Mort: Or it's
298 00:37:23.720 --> 00:37:28.369 Andy Mort: you're aware that you're in presence. The presence of other like. There are people all around the world
299 00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:31.290 Andy Mort: there, at that same time doing the same thing as you.
300 00:37:31.650 --> 00:37:38.130 Andy Mort: and or something else like. It's really difficult to PIN down exactly what it is, but
301 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:45.970 Andy Mort: the meaning of it, and the way that it lands in people is so much more than if they're just watching a video on their own.
302 00:37:46.420 --> 00:37:50.340 Andy Mort: she is speaks to, speaks to what you're saying there as well. Yeah.
303 00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:57.259 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, good. I guess one of the
304 00:37:57.690 --> 00:38:01.820 Sarah Santacroce: final questions would be like, How how
305 00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:14.619 Sarah Santacroce: entrepreneurs who are listening to this. And they're like, yeah, I could definitely use some more spaciousness in in my life and business. What would be like a 1st step that you would
306 00:38:14.990 --> 00:38:22.670 Sarah Santacroce: tell them to something to look at in their business, or something to do or not do. Probably.
307 00:38:23.690 --> 00:38:26.309 Andy Mort: Yeah, 1st step.
308 00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:30.719 Andy Mort: I think. And he I mean, he's
309 00:38:30.870 --> 00:38:40.020 Andy Mort: say all the time, but sort of just allowing yourself to to notice what matters to you in what you do and what
310 00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:48.920 Andy Mort: brings you satisfaction? And I've been exploring this this word satisfaction with a coaching client over the past
311 00:38:49.830 --> 00:38:55.760 Andy Mort: sort of 6 months or so and different sources of satisfaction.
312 00:38:57.120 --> 00:39:00.140 Andy Mort: And yeah, really reflecting on.
313 00:39:00.660 --> 00:39:11.800 Andy Mort: you know what's the most satisfying thing to you about the way that you approach your business. What's the most satisfying thing to you to hear from a client? What's what is satisfying.
314 00:39:11.970 --> 00:39:14.509 Andy Mort: you know, at the end of a day like
315 00:39:14.850 --> 00:39:19.360 Andy Mort: what has happened in a satisfying day, or whatever it is like. Just
316 00:39:19.550 --> 00:39:22.450 Andy Mort: yeah. Thinking about those different levels of satisfaction.
317 00:39:22.620 --> 00:39:26.439 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, and then, yeah, building a picture around that
318 00:39:27.100 --> 00:39:31.220 Sarah Santacroce: and then doing Murray condo on all the other things that.
319 00:39:31.220 --> 00:39:31.870 Andy Mort: Yeah.
320 00:39:31.870 --> 00:39:34.530 Sarah Santacroce: Doing, and are not satisfying right.
321 00:39:34.530 --> 00:39:39.659 Andy Mort: Yeah. And maybe yeah, because it's like the question of boundaries. It's
322 00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:47.409 Andy Mort: are you moving towards? If you move towards the things that are satisfying. Will the other things just fall away? Or
323 00:39:47.710 --> 00:39:49.440 Andy Mort: do you need to actively
324 00:39:49.830 --> 00:40:03.939 Andy Mort: extract certain things? It's most likely a mixture of both. But I think, yeah, for me. The first, st the starting point is moving towards the things that you know that matter most, and doing
325 00:40:04.260 --> 00:40:07.050 Andy Mort: things in the way that I want to do them.
326 00:40:07.210 --> 00:40:13.620 Andy Mort: And then, actually, those other things might naturally just, I'm no longer doing that interesting.
327 00:40:13.620 --> 00:40:16.184 Andy Mort: Okay, I don't need to bring it back.
328 00:40:17.295 --> 00:40:17.830 Andy Mort: Yeah.
329 00:40:18.270 --> 00:40:18.990 Sarah Santacroce: Great.
330 00:40:19.120 --> 00:40:30.080 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And then I mean, you're such a creative. You create your compose your own music and talking about collages and all of that so bringing more
331 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:44.490 Sarah Santacroce: creativity, like just giving yourself permission to be more creative in your business. I think that comes with the that permission of letting go of the shoulds, you know, like we are
332 00:40:44.600 --> 00:40:52.580 Sarah Santacroce: like copying so much of what other people are telling us to do. But if you
333 00:40:52.720 --> 00:41:07.109 Sarah Santacroce: realize oh, but that is not actually satisfying than just going into this permission of well, what if I do it differently and more creatively? How would that? Yeah, give me more satisfaction? Right?
334 00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:10.030 Andy Mort: Definitely, yeah, and your creative voice.
335 00:41:10.470 --> 00:41:13.810 Andy Mort: Just allowing that to to bubble up and be part of
336 00:41:14.170 --> 00:41:21.410 Andy Mort: the way you express yourself through your business and humor as well. I think humor is a big part of that like.
337 00:41:21.410 --> 00:41:21.730 Sarah Santacroce: M.
338 00:41:21.730 --> 00:41:25.219 Andy Mort: Doing things that make you laugh, doing things that yeah, you.
339 00:41:25.220 --> 00:41:26.600 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah playfulness.
340 00:41:26.600 --> 00:41:29.489 Andy Mort: Play you playful? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
341 00:41:29.710 --> 00:41:32.310 Andy Mort: Yeah. Because people connect to that absolutely.
342 00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:34.590 Sarah Santacroce: Lovely.
343 00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:41.629 Sarah Santacroce: so good to talk to you, Andy, please do share about your community, and where else people can find you.
344 00:41:41.890 --> 00:41:47.580 Andy Mort: Yeah, I mean, the best place is is the haven. So the hyphen haven.co
345 00:41:47.710 --> 00:41:51.049 Andy Mort: everything. I've kind of brought everything that I do
346 00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:54.340 Andy Mort: with this in respect to what I've been talking about today
347 00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:57.620 Andy Mort: under that banner. Now. So you, there's yeah a bunch of
348 00:41:57.930 --> 00:42:02.450 Andy Mort: free stuff there, you can join the community, join us for some live events and things and
349 00:42:03.290 --> 00:42:05.915 Andy Mort: get the podcast through there.
350 00:42:06.620 --> 00:42:17.459 Andy Mort: yeah, just head there. Thank you, Sarah, this is yeah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. And I love talking about these things in this way. So thank you for this
351 00:42:17.690 --> 00:42:19.419 Andy Mort: invitation. It's been lovely.
352 00:42:19.890 --> 00:42:33.060 Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the listeners who slowed down with us and are still listening. So thanks again, Andy, and we'll stay in touch and speak soon.
353 00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:35.070 Andy Mort: Thank you. Absolutely.
Sarah0: hello, friends. welcome back. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion. and if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. the number one and the word page. and this then comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. today, i'm having a wonderful conversation with kelly drewitt about getting your content found by the right people, or in other words, seo, search engine optimization. and i'll tell you about kelly just in a second. but first, allow me to just give you a little reminder, especially if you're not on my mailing list, that i'm hosting another live round of the marketing like we're human program. this is my signature program that i've been hosting since two thousand nineteen, which is part self development, inner development, part pragmatic, out there marketing and business advice. in short, it teaches you how to market from within so that you become a client resonator. for the past five years, i've been running the marketing like we're human program as a three month program to really deliver this transformation to market from within so that it resonates with your ideal clients. but i think we can all agree that we're living through some unusual times and sometimes quite rough times for entrepreneurs. and what worked five years ago doesn't necessarily work anymore today. so here are the three main reasons why i decided to experiment with a more condensed and also, therefore, a more budget friendly version of my signature program. first of all, the economic landscape looks very different from what it did five years ago. and many of us have either less available cash for investing in ourselves, or we just kinda wanna hold on to that cash because there's so much uncertainty. second, blocking ten ninety minute calls for a program is a challenge for many. and so that's another reason why i will experiment this round with a shortened version. and then finally, also our consciousness has really evolved as well. so i find that participants are much more ready for humane marketing, and i can pick them up right where they're at. so another reason to experiment with a shorter version of of my program. so what does this condensed version, look like? well, the online portion of the program is the same, the video course and the workbooks. and then instead of ten live group calls, we'll go with five. so, i'm basically taking two models into one call. and if we need an additional call, we'll add one at the end. and, of course, the investment is reduced substantially from, seventeen hundred and fifty to nine hundred and fifty for the program. so, yeah, i'm i'm just wanting to experiment because i want this to be accessible to entrepreneurs. right? and so i'm experimenting with, with this cohort for this round, with these conditions. so i already have wonderful humans signed up for, for this cohort, and i'm just anticipating a wonderful group of change makers to kick off twenty twenty five. if this is the first time you hear about the program, this is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but you want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. maybe you're just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. also, maybe you are pivoting your business from the business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. so if any of this resonates, please go ahead and book a call with me, via the orange button on the invitation page at humane dot marketing forward slash program. we start on january thirtieth, so there's still time to, go through it, read it all, look at all the testimonials. there's tons of testimonials and case studies, whole case studies on this page. so have a look, and then, let's have a human conversation around it. alright. thanks for letting me share that here. now back to kelly and getting your content found by the right people. so kelly druid has more than twenty five years of experience in website development and search engine optimize optimization seo. she is passionate about helping you improve your seo and really develops user centric wordpress websites optimized for search engines and provides technical seo as well as helps you create unique seo friendly content. so that sounds all very technical, but i promise, if you listen to this conversation, you will find out that it's actually very human and humane. kelly also used to be a member of the humane marketing circle, so she is very much aligned with our values. and then we cannot wait to have her back for a collab workshop in our community. so without further ado, let's listen to this conversation about getting your content found by the right people.
Sarah: hi, kelly. it's good to have you back on the humane marketing podcast. welcome.
Kelly: hi, sarah. really nice to be here.
Sarah: yeah. lovely to reconnect. you were on the podcast once before and my community, the humane marketing circle, which you used to also be a member of, wanted you back for another collab workshop. so that's what we're doing. we're just recording a kind of introduction, episode, and then we'll plug the workshop at the end so that listeners, if they're like, oh, i i wanna learn more about, kind of like the humane approach to seo from kelly. hopefully, they'll join us. so let's just talk about your approach to seo and, you know, for those who may not know what seo even stands for, you can you can, explain that. but i picked up the, the tagline basically from your website where you say conscious websites, sustainable seo. so maybe start us off there and tell us what that means to you.
Kelly: yeah. so i originally was a website designer. i am a website designer. but, over the years, over the twenty six years that my business has been running, i've got i know it's amazing. i've i've been working it out this year, and it's incredible. i started doing the whole website design side of stuff. and then sort of halfway through that time, i just wondered why some websites were ranking and some websites weren't. and, so i went in to investigate why stuff worked on search engines and stuff didn't. and i just got really into that side of stuff. so the reason that i say it is conscious websites because websites will rank when they are inclusive. so, basically, if the text is big enough for everybody to see, if there is contrast in the colors of the website so that people can see the text on the buttons. or, for example, a lot of people have those big hero images that go all the way across the screen, and then they might have text in front of it. and oftentimes, you can't see what the text says because it's white on, i don't know, a snowy mountain background or something like that. so it's very hard to read. and that's where you have to be really conscious about whether or not people can read and click your website. so that helps with search engine optimization. so being very clear, very transparent, ensuring that the the visitors can use your website, that helps your seo. and then, therefore, it's sustainable because you stick to the top of search engines once you rank well. usually, you'll fluctuate a little up up and down one or two places for different search terms, but you will stick. so organic seo is sustainable. so that's why i've got that tagline.
Sarah: mhmm. yeah. that that makes a lot of sense. and it and it feels like it's conscious to the website owner because you have to be conscious and apply consciousness. yeah. but it's also conscious, because, like you said, it's inclusive and it's, you know, it's a website created in integrity, rather than just to trick, the people or to trick even the search engines. right?
Kelly: exactly. yeah. i that's the side of organic seo that i really love is the fact that it is conscious. it is inclusive. and i have i've had a business owner say to me before, but i don't want to, that a a person that's visually impaired will not be able to do the sport that i'm offering. you know? so then that's not their target market. and, yes, that is completely valid. it's just that search engines will, reward the website if you're making it better for people that are visually impaired. if you think about our moms and our dads and things like that or even you know, i'm wearing glasses now as well. yeah. that's exactly. and you're looking at a website, and it's got teeny tiny writing or it's really, really light and thin and you can't really read it, you're not gonna stick around on that website because you just can't use it. and the search engines can see that. they know in the code this is very narrow text or it's very small text. and so that is not you're not thinking about your visitor if you're using that kind of font. and there's lots of little things like that that the the search engines look for and just they will rank you higher if you're doing those things better.
Sarah: it's interesting because it's kind of the common sense, things that when you hear seo, you don't think of those things. you you think of, you know, search engine optimization already. it's like this tech term, and you think kind of of these tech bros who are tricking the search engines. and yeah.
Kelly: you can submit a tags, and you think about tags. and you're like, oh my gosh. where's my title tag? and is is the structure okay? and and, yes, those things are completely a part of seo, and you have you need to do those things as well. but it does come down to, that design of the website as well. so that there's a design side to seo, and there is a tech side to seo. and, obviously, there's that content side as well. so there's three three parts.
Sarah: three parts. yeah. so when you when you say, provide an effortless experience for your audience, you mean all of those things combined. right?
Kelly: yeah. so the journey around a website is, another thing that search engines will, pick up on. so if you've got, say, a blog post that you've written and you're referring to another part a blog, another blog post, or another resource that you've maybe taken a little bit of information from, when you link to that resource, you should link the text within the content. so within protect the the the words within the text instead of, like, putting it at the end of the blog post. because when you're using the text in within the content, it helps the user journey. so someone's reading, ah, i want to find more about find out more about that. they can click straight on that link instead of sticking it right down at the bottom, and they've completely forgotten what they've they've read. so it's thinking about that user journey and pushing them around the website easily.
Sarah: mhmm. yeah. so so really creating this path for them. and then maybe also from that new page that they clicked on, then leading them to another page. right? like, from what i remember from seo or just website use in general, it's like we want them we want the person to be on our website as long as possible. so that's why we want to take them on this journey and not just click away after they just read, you know, this amazing blog post that we spent hours and hours writing. so
Kelly: yeah. so this is what our, workshop will be about. it's basically about the keywords for real people, and it's writing that content for real people as well. so that content lands with the audience. it lands with the visitor. it's really relevant to them, and you're taking them on that journey through your website. so it's super easy and super interesting and really fun. i mean, seo is fun, she says. trying to convince everybody else in the world.
Sarah: well, yeah, i i think that's what attracts me to your approach so much because it's really about resonance at play, really. it's like what we're trying to do is make marketing easy for ourselves. and by using the right keywords, we are then attracting the right people to to our content. and then from there, take them on this journey. right? so so in a way yeah, it's it's this resonance that i that i always talk about, and i i couldn't imagine a more fun way than just have people come to your website and then sign up to your newsletter and without having to do, something constantly. yes. you have to create the content, but that usually then that sits there and hopefully you get a good keyword that just keeps getting the people coming back and back. right?
Kelly: it has longevity. yeah. that's what seo is so powerful for and getting those news at the sign ups, as you say. and, oh, i was i suddenly thought of something then, but i it's it's completely gone out of my mind because i'm not seeing you.
Sarah: they'll come back. yeah. yeah. yeah. so in a way, what we're doing is we're playing matchmaking. we're trying to, you know, attract the right audience and and and use the right keywords for that. so so maybe to me, what it sounds like understanding your audience is actually the first and bigger step to to then figuring out, well, what are my keywords? usually, when you talk to keywords to new entrepreneurs, they just think of, you know, let's say they're a hair salon in, you know, lausanne. well, they think their keyword is hair salon in in lausanne. right? but those are not well, okay. for a hair salon, i don't know if you've ever worked with one, but that's kind of difficult difficult example.
Kelly: i know exactly what you're getting at, though. and it's actually what i was thinking about, and i just forgot. but it when you're thinking about something like hair salon, lausanne, what business owner the mistake business owners make is to try to rank for a keyword that everybody else is ranking for. now there are billions of key phrases that people put into the search engines. so you don't have to try to rank for the one the same keywords as the salon next door is ranking for. you can rank for a whole different set, and you might have different values. so therefore, you can rank in different ways. and so with the workshop that we're doing, we're going to look at researching those key phrases and making sure that we find the right key phrases for us and then target them because they've got low difficulty so they're easier to rank for. does that make sense?
Sarah: yeah. yeah. yeah. that's exactly what i was getting at. like, we we think, you you know, you would think that for me, a keyword is humane marketing. right? that might be, but it's probably the the one that is the the least easy to get any traction from because it has the word marketing in it and and everybody is already targeting the the word marketing. yes okay you know you have a humane, which is a little bit different, but people don't think of, putting that into the search engine. yeah. so so yeah.
Kelly: so they you kind of gotta go around the houses a little bit, but you're answering the questions that the people who you're targeting would right. ask, the ones that the things that they would put into the search engines.
Sarah: right.
Kelly: and there's lots of ways to get around that. because if you think about so take a geographical area like your salon, you what you're trying to do is build a hub of information. so you're building information about a industry or about a certain topic, and that builds up. the search engines can see you're doing such a good job here that in the end, you will be able to rank for the set the key phrases that you want to because you've done such a good job foundationally. and that's the point. it's kind of making the effort. it's not easy. i'm not saying it is, but it can be fun because you're providing that content for your visitors.
Sarah: i'm giggling quietly by myself because we were actually just talking about your haircut today yeah. before before we started recording. and so i'm like, oh, yeah. because you were complaining that it's really difficult to find a good hairdresser in france who's doing good haircuts for curly hair. so if i was a hairdresser in france, right. and i'm actually good at cutting curly hair. well, that would be an amazing keyword. right?
Kelly: such a niche key phrase. exactly.
Sarah: now i don't know how many, french people that maybe there's french people that was just don't have curly hair. so that's another thing that i need to find out. is there actually a market for that? but something like that is very, you know, narrow. and then maybe i can also somehow bring in more, of my values. the other thing i was thinking about in terms of hairdressers is, like, well, maybe i wanna i i wanna, resonate with an audience that doesn't wanna use chemicals. so i would, like, really make a niche case around using products that are chemical free or that are natural, you know, things like that. so so that's what then resonates with your people and real people. so
Kelly: totally. and i think when you're looking at, ranking in that way so as in okay. so chemical free, if you take that and then say, okay. okay. we'll go back to the the hairdressing products, something like that. but what you could do is build up, lots of, blog posts, really good blog posts about chemical free products, but also build up lots of blog posts about hair cutting and hairdressing and things like that. and, eventually, the two cross, and then you've ended up getting that content on both of those sides. and you can do a sort of a cornerstone content kind of piece that actually links all of those together as well. so you've built up those two, yeah, areas of the industry, and that's how you build up your content and end up ranking for good good phrases. so
Sarah: yeah. cool. yeah. that that's fascinating, and look forward to talking more about the the actual how to in the in the workshop. yeah. do you feel like there's a trade off between ranking well on search engines and and still staying human and and not trying to trick the engine, but still making sure, okay, my content feels very humane and and human?
Kelly: yeah. there is a balance, and i know that business owners struggle with it. i really i know this. but we do actually touch on this in the workshop where i i talk through, what was my example? some people, do things, will write things like, oh, five things i do on saturday night to help my business or something like that. but you've gotta get into the mind of the person on the search engine. they're not going to type in five things sarah does on a saturday night to help her business. they're just not going to search that kind of that that sentence. mhmm.
Sarah: so
Kelly: you think about it different in a different way. you can, you know, how to grow my business working on a saturday night or something like that. that's a terrible example, but it's just trying to twist what you really want to write about and then what the people are actually searching for. so we go through in the workshop, we're gonna go through the, finding topics that you can actually write about, the things that you're interested in. then we look at, okay, how are we going to find what people are searching for? so do the keyword research, and then you're looking at, okay, i need to write about that. so you get those, like you get the background exploring the topics, finding the key phrases, and then, like, which ones to choose.
Sarah: yeah. i i feel like yeah. tell us a little bit about keywords and whether they change with the zeitgeist. i feel like they they will, especially in the conscious business realm. right? i feel like it gets more and more yeah. it's like in the site guys now to say, you know, con like, you know, you talk about conscious websites. i call myself a conscious business code. so there's certain keywords, and i think there's actually a tool where you can see, you know, how keywords do over time and and, like, yeah, what have you seen, lately? like, what's a a hype keyword right now that people use?
Kelly: oh, don't know the answer to that question. i'm trying to think. so when you say did you say guides? site guides?
Sarah: zeitgeist. you know, the
Kelly: zeitgeist. i don't know that one.
Sarah: yeah. it's a german word for for for for saying, like, it's it's just in the air right now. like, consciousness and
Kelly: awesome. yeah.
Sarah: you know, kind of this this
Kelly: so you sort of you're sort of talking about, i guess, key like, trends that people are
Sarah: yeah.
Kelly: searching for. yeah. i that actually tend to so when you're looking at a, a website so if you're looking at a very small small business website, you're not gonna be able to rank instantly or well for trending terms because, you've got so many people, to contend with. so a lot of the time, the media will get up there on the trending key phrases and things. so what you need to do is, like, put the effort in, put the groundwork in to get the website to rank well for the basis, and that's when the search engines will crawl your website frequently. and when you have got a really big website, the search engines will crawl your website hourly sometimes. the big websites, if they put a blog post up, they will rank within, like, five minutes because the search engines are crawling the content all the time. when it comes to a small business like ours, it doesn't happen so much because the search engines will crawl us less frequently. but you can use, google search console, and you can actually tell google, right, i've put a new blog post up. so it's called inspect url. you can pop it into the inspection tool, see if it's been discovered yet. if it hasn't, you can ask google to go crawl it. and that's a really good way of getting your very new content pushed out just a bit quicker.
Sarah: yeah. wonderful. well, for those who are listening and maybe can't or or don't want to join us for the the workshop, they they're like, well, i'm just kinda, like, tipping my toes into seo. what would be one thing that you would recommend? like, that's just the basis of the basis that people should do for for seo and their website.
Kelly: we're covering this. yay. we're covering this in part two of the workshop, and that's not a plug, honest, but it is about consistency. so the in the search engine world, it's called nap consistency, which is name, address, phone number. that's what nap stands for. and it really is about having your business name, your name, your telephone number, your opening times, your address, all of that, all consistent all across the internet. so you're not confusing search engines because humane marketing could be completely different from the humane marketing circle. even down to, you know, the word the, search engines need to understand that you are that certain business.
Sarah: and
Kelly: so across social media, on your bios, all of that, you need to have the correct name, the one name that you use. i drop limited off of mine. i don't know if you're a sal or, registered as yeah. and so some people just will put limited or sale on the name on the end of their name business name, and it's just not necessary unless you could you need to use it everywhere if you're going to use it in one place. but just, yeah, be consistent about the information you've put on the net.
Sarah: yeah. again, such a common sense practice. but if you don't know it and you don't pay attention to it, then that's already where it starts, right, regarding yeah. your website. yeah.
Kelly: yeah. exactly. i think the one thing the one takeaway is imagine if you were searching for your business, what do you see on the net? what what comes up? and then deal with those things.
Sarah: yeah. it reminds me of, back in the days when i had the linkedin consultancy, and and people would come to me and, you know, say, oh, i never show my linkedin profile never shows up in a search, not on google, but on linkedin. and so i would go and search for their name, and they had, like, three different profiles under their their name. and it was so confusing, and they're like, oh, i did that because i only wanted certain people to see this. i'm like, oh my gosh. that's so confusing.
Kelly: yeah. yeah. and if you're if you're confusing people yep. if you're confusing people, you're confusing the search engines, basically. yeah. and and your linkedin profile will have a lot of impact on how your website ranks and all sorts. so they all need to be consistent.
Sarah: all connected. yeah. alright. well, give us a sneak preview of the workshop and what we're gonna be covering there.
Kelly: cool. so we've got two parts, and we're going to try to be really, hands on with the whole thing and just make sure that, actually, when we're talking about stuff, we will have a little bit of input. we can have questions, and we're gonna have breakout rooms. so you can actually do a little bit of work. because as soon as i talk about not consistency, everyone goes off and checks their own website. so there's there there is that one. but so we've got part one, which is the keyword research, and we will be learning about exploring the topics, so doing sort of mind mapping around the topics, that you want to use on your blog and on your website. and then we'll do researching of key phrases, and then how to do it and the tools, and then which that you which to choose, so which resonate with you. and then part two is all about consistency, which i was just talking about, and that sort of reasons to be consistent, ways to be consistent, and then sort of where. so which websites and how you'd find them and how to change that information. cool. that'd be fun. yeah. yeah.
Sarah: it's gonna be good. ninety minutes. so, yeah, please, if you're listening and you're like, yeah. that's exactly what i need to start off, twenty twenty five. and and then, you know, as as kelly said, sometimes for our small websites, it takes a while. so i remember we worked together, kelly, and i think a year after i started to have one keyword who's still bringing me new sign ups every every week, basically. and so
Kelly: away. yeah.
Sarah: yeah. and that's just like you know, that's such a good feeling because, again, it's the right people. right? i know they're already filtered because it's not just a keyword like you know marketing, it's a it's a very specific keyword that i will share during the workshop. so yeah if you want to join us all the details are at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. it's on february fifth. and, yeah, we always, ask for a little donation because, otherwise, it's reserved to the circle members, and it actually takes place in our community. so we hope to see you there. and, personally, i can't wait. thanks so much for doing this, kelly.
Kelly: i can't wait as well. so exciting. cool.
Sarah: awesome. thank you.
Kelly: thank you.
Sarah: actually, we've got one thing, kelly. do tell people where they can find you.
Kelly: oh, i'm kady webb everywhere. so it's, hard to spell, but so it's k a y d e e webb, and that's me basically all over the internet. so instagram, i hang out on a lot. so come over there. yeah.
Sarah: okay. yeah. yeah. get in touch with kelly on instagram. and, and if you wanna see her live, it's during the workshop. thanks so much.
Sarah1: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. find out more about kaly at k d dot net. that's k a y d e e dot net. or even better, join us for the collab workshop on february fifth in our community by signing up at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and if you're looking for others who think like you and, want to do marketing just like that, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? and you get access to these workshops for free, and we also host regular community calls led by our members. so find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h h m two zero two. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, my third book, business like we're human. still finalizing things. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.
Sarah: welcome back, humane marketers. happy twenty twenty five. i hope you had a good break. if you had one, i hope you did. welcome to another year of meaningful conversations around humane marketing and business building in order to create a business that contributes to making this world a better place. you may have noticed it already last year that there are fewer episodes than your typical podcast, but that's actually intentional. because i really want to create less but more meaningful content. so i try to handpick my guests and bring you people who i really feel are doing things differently. so having fewer episodes also contributes to creating more spaciousness for both of us, which is one of my favorite words these days, spaciousness. and also a big theme in my upcoming business like we're human book. talking about the book, i haven't given you an update in a while because i've just been busy writing. and it's now almost ready, but i'm doing things differently again and won't make a big hoopla around a book launch and instead just do a slow launch over the whole year more or less. so on the podcast, i'll be hosting some conversations with friends around topics that come up in the business like we're human book. some of them, uh, are even mentioned in the book. and so, yeah, just thinking about that gets me really excited. and if you join us in the humane marketing circle before january twenty seventh, you also get the chance to participate and contribute to a beta round of four workshops following the four parts of the book that i'll also be offering to the public when the book is live sometime later this year. and otherwise, as i said, you'll get to listen to the conversations around these topics here on the podcast. so with that, let's get started with the first episode of this year. today's conversation fits under the p of people and partnership. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to thomas hovanyak about meaningful conversations. thomas energizes the role of a leadership coach, strategic facilitator, and breath work guide. he helps leaders and teams who become the most balanced versions of themselves to build innovative projects and organizations tackling complex social and environmental challenges globally. he's the cofounder of who cards, a card game on a mission to transform social interactions to become more open, vulnerable, and authentic. and we're actually using these questions in our community for the last few months and are just loving those conversations. thomas leads a truly nomadic lifestyle and can often be found balancing and walking on high lines, hundred to two hundred meters high in the mountains where birds fly by. so here's what we addressed in today's episode. we talked about how slowing down and connecting on a human level leads to more effective holistic solutions. how shifting from what do you do to who are you to foster authentic and meaningful conversations. we talked about the importance of psychological safety in building trust and honest collaboration. how small business owners can create deeper relationships with clients through dialogue and vulnerability. talked about also designing relational spaces, both online and offline, that encourage genuine human connection. and we explored the concept of relational design to spark lasting change in organizations and so much more. so i'd say without further ado, let's dive in and listen to this conversation between thomas and i.
Sarah: hey, Tamas good to see you again.
Tamas: hey. good to see you again.
Sarah: we're saying again because we've had this conversation before and it was amazing. and then the sound wasn't so amazing. so we decided to record it again and it's been a few months you've been traveling mountain climbing. and so, yeah, it's it. i can't say i've forgotten it because there was, you know, some things that are like really got me thinking, but it's also good to have the conversation again. so we're talking about meaningful conversations. so maybe you can start there. and just like in the last few months, you you told me you've been outdoors a lot. and tell us a little bit about that. have you taken were you the leader of these groups outdoors, or were you a participant on these outdoor, experiences? and how does the meaningful conversations fit into that experience?
Tamas: wow. such a great question. thank you so much. so the last couple of months, i've been mostly doing this, extreme activity called highlining, meaning that we put a a tightrope or a slackline in the mountains between two points that are currently not connected. and we go on an operation to set this thing up. and then once it's it's up there, we we get on it and we stand up and we balance and walk.
Sarah: and it's i can just imagine it. yeah.
Tamas: and in the last, three months, i've been involved in a big project in greece. we set up one of these highlands, which was one kilometer long on the top of the vikos gorge, which is one of the deepest gorges of europe. and, you know, the beauty of of this is that a number of people come together and many of these people don't know each other from earlier. and, they just have a common passion. and somehow this project team gets, to put together, with a very loose hierarchical structure. so i would say we're more on a flat base. there's not really one single leader. but there is a notion of, many people who know a lot, and we need to come together, and we need to find a way to put up this high line, in a safe manner. and we need to find ways of doing that so it's fast, so it, you know, responds to weather conditions. and that at the end of the day, it's safe to put our lives on. and i'm always super fascinated because, somehow this works out very naturally. and what i came to realize this last mission is that one of the reason why it happens is because we connect to each other human to human. and connecting to each other human to human kinda requires to have more than usual or more than normal conversations, meaning that we get to know each other. who are you? what is your story? what have you been, know, getting passionate about recently? what are your fears? what are your dreams? so we don't just talk about highlights, but we start really connecting on this deeper sense where we we get to know each other, and we build that trust, and we build that psychological safety so that when someone makes a mistake during putting up these highlights or, when someone has a different opinion about some safety issues, we are able to go to each other and we are able to communicate. and then we are able to fall back into being human to human and friends with each other so that we can continue having fun together. yes. i've been having meaningful conversations and i've been using that in the other setting, probably in a much more important way than if i were to use it in a business or an organizational setting.
Sarah: yeah. because, because it's attached to survival. right? so it's like your survival depends on these conversations that you're having with other humans, because i think the minute you can just picture it the minute the ego comes in there and interferes, and you know, someone comes in there and thinks he has, she has all the the answers, then then things can go wrong. so it really has to be a communal, decision making process, and that requires human to human conversations.
Tamas: yeah. very much so. mhmm. that's a good point.
Sarah: that's beautiful. yeah. yeah. and the other word you brought up is psychological safety. so i think that's a really important thing. and you will explain as why, if you if we we want to have meaningful conversations, i think, especially in a setting where people don't know each other. right?
Tamas: mhmm.
Sarah: tell us a bit more about psychological safety and what you feel is important there to, yeah, set the set the space maybe. mhmm. yeah.
Tamas: i mean, it's such a such a topic these days in the organizational field or in the business field on how do we relate to psychological safety. and i think the angle i would like to bring in is that, is what i've been researching a lot around what are the boundaries of, us showing ourselves in different settings, and how does that contribute to psychological safety. because on the one hand, i do believe that we need to take off the masks. we need to take off the mask that our ego, our mind is putting up to protect ourselves from something. so, typically, if you go into, let's say, to a workplace, you don't wanna show yourself that you're lacking something because you have a fear that it's going to be used against you. so you are already hiding behind the mask, or maybe you don't wanna talk about something that you love doing in your free time. maybe it deviates a little bit from the mainstream and from the norm. so suddenly there is another mask there. but at the same time, i do need to show something about myself to start building that trust that is the basics of the psychological safety. so many people, including me, are questioning that what is the healthy depth of sharing about myself in certain settings. and it's the same for me. when i go into my highlighting setting with my friends and my peers, i'm able to share a lot more as opposed to if i go on a on a gala night at an embassy. and, and i need to be able to sense and feel what is this social field around me, and what kind of questions can i ask in this field that moves beyond the regular question, but still not challenging the people in that setting too much so that they are still comfortable giving an answer to that question, which will generate a meaningful conversation? and to me, this is the aspect that comes up with psychological safety the the most that whoever is in a position of bringing different relational connections, into that field, they need to be aware of what is the quality of that field. where are people? where is the audience in that field? and how can they be challenged so that they feel that discomfort of being challenged, but they still feel trusted and safe to start leaning into it. and from there, you can start building more depth because with that, you will start talking about norms, about agreements, and you start slowly creating a space where you can be more of who you are.
Sarah: yeah. yeah. i think there there really is different spaces that can be redefined how how they feel safe, right? like, for for example, i'm talking about a new business intimacy. and and that means that we can kind of question maybe our assumptions, how intimacy should look like in a business setting, and then redefine a new business intimacy that feels good for that group in that specific situations. and then in that setting, we can have meaningful conversations. but that might look different from one workplace to the other. and of course, it's very different. you know, if you compare work compared to a friend setting, where where then it's not business and intimacy, but friendship intimacy. so, yeah, i think i think it's important to understand that. maybe another thing that we should bring up before we go more deeply into into this is is how do we define a meaningful conversation? right? like, what to you does that mean?
Tamas: wow. good question. and what comes to me straight away is that something that's not cognitive. mhmm. something a a meaningful conversation would be for me something that when i'm engaging in that conversation, at the end of it or at some point in that conversation, i start feeling something warm in my body. i start feeling something a sense of kindness, a sense of tingly sensations knowing that this person in front of me went beyond the usual and shared something that maybe makes them feel vulnerable. or maybe i start seeing something about their authenticity. mhmm. so you can distill some stuff from that. but, again, it's it's different from person to person because maybe someone is happy to always overshare, and maybe someone is never sharing anything about themselves. and from that standpoint, they they ran beyond, and i could feel that in my body.
Sarah: and that
Tamas: is the meaningful conversation for me at this moment of life.
Sarah: yeah. so it's an embodied feeling of what it, what it does to you as to, as to participant in this conversation.
Tamas: exactly. and and and that encourages me as a listener to also show more of myself
Sarah: mhmm. be
Tamas: a bit more vulnerable
Sarah: mhmm.
Tamas: or share something that has
Sarah: a
Tamas: deep importance to me, and that could be any topic. so it's not like i wanna lock out certain topics, but maybe i talk about the usual topics from a very different angle.
Sarah: right. which, which makes me think. and, and i, i really feel that this is the case that we have kind of lost the art of having meaningful conversations, definitely in the workspace, but maybe also in in other spaces where it now seems like and i think that's where your who cards come in. it now seems like we need certain people, role models, if you wanna call them that, who who's some somehow facilitate or create that space to to have meaningful conversations. because otherwise, it's much easier to just stay at the cognitive level all the time. mhmm. it feels easier because, yeah, because it's not embodied and it doesn't include so much emotions. and so it's just, like, superficial and it feels easier. it doesn't give you the same it doesn't have the same risk, but it also doesn't have the same benefits, of course. right. it doesn't give you that warm, fuzzy feeling to just stay at the cognitive level. but yeah. is that what you noticed as well that maybe made you then start this project of of creating the the who cards, or or, yeah, holding more spaces where we can have these conversations.
Tamas: mhmm. definitely. and definitely, i've been you know, since the last conversations we had, i've been looking back into my professional life. and one thing that really stood out for me is that i always wanted to have have more real conversations in my workplace. and one thing that stood out for me is that i think people really loved being around me is because i was challenging the topics that we were discussing even at the workplace. and this also means that many of the conversations, from the field of investment banking to social innovation to the nonprofit road, these are the three major fields i've been involved. most of the time centering around what is that we can achieve together, what is that we do together, where are we traveling, and what type of goals we need to deliver to, a, make more profit, or, b, make higher social or environmental impact. and on the one hand, we are making more profit or at least a group of people are making more profit with this in, you know, in the cost of, you know, environmental and social degradation. and on the other hand, you can also see that the social and environmental movement in a way is failing the causes because we are not able to respond to the challenges with the speed and with the efficiency that we need to. so something needs to change. and, you know, when i got into this crazy project out of which the who cards were born, we were challenging the way how we connect when we come together and we start thinking about solving these bigger issues. and we were putting it out there, this idea that if you come to these retreats we were organizing, you were not able to you were not allowed to talk about what you do. you were not allowed to talk about how to solve these big issues before you talked about who you are. and we were talking about people from high level director level of corporates, politicians, artists, actors, social change makers, cleaners, people from all walks of lives. and every single of them were challenged by talking about who they are because we're simply simply not used to it anymore.
Sarah: mhmm. yeah. yeah. in a way, it's it sounds a little bit like a paradox that we need to slow down to speed up. that's what i understood from what you just said. right?
Tamas: yes. and it is a huge paradox and it's very difficult for the mind to comprehend this paradox.
Sarah: right.
Tamas: we need to slow down and we need to start paying attention.
Sarah: right.
Tamas: what's in the room and who's in the room?
Sarah: right.
Tamas: what are the stories that they are telling and how does that inform how i need to, how i should, or how i can connect to this other person? and from that connection, what can naturally emerge? and i'm not saying
Sarah: so tell me more about that. what why do we need to slow down and and create these human connections? how does that help us then speed up?
Tamas: mhmm. i came to believe specifically the last half a year, but this journey has been leading up to this point, is that when we start with the question of what do you do, we really or what can we achieve together, we really start operating from the rational mind, the analytical mind, and this is only half of our intelligence. when we start connecting to each other and we when we challenge ourselves to ask questions like who you are, what makes you smile, are you afraid of death, we start unlocking a deeper sense of this other human in front of me. and with that, we start understanding maybe their underlying emotional road, maybe their underlying intuitive road. and through that, we are creating connections that is not solely relying on the rational mind anymore. it starts stepping into also this other side of our intelligence, which is more, non logical, nonlinear, which considers that we are angry, we are sad, we are afraid of climate change. and the potential solutions, the potential collaborations, the potential outcomes that that comes from those spaces are gonna be more holistic. and i really like this, word from one of my teachers, nikola siani, holistic intelligence. we need to start tapping into that type of intelligence if we want to try to tackle these challenges. simply speaking, because the rationale has not worked out. so we have a chance to tap into something deeper and see what happens. will it work out? i don't think it's guaranteed. and i cannot say with a hundred percent, conviction that it will, but it is a direction that i'm fully convinced that we need to try tapping into.
Sarah: mhmm. yeah. it it feels like we're tapping into the unseen. and so, obviously, if it's the if it's the unseen, it's unknown whether it will work out or not. but it's kinda like, you know, the mushrooms with with all the little roots. what we see is just a mushroom, but what's underneath is actually the real liaison between, you know, the other mushrooms and trees and and the whole forest, really. and so maybe that's what we're tapping into by asking the question, who are you instead of what do you do? so the connection between the humans is much more solid than just, you know, at the at the surface level. yeah. yeah. it's trusting the unseen. right?
Tamas: yeah. and and i the reason why i like that you're bringing in the mushrooms is because we're, you know, we're talking about systems change and and behind that systems thinking here. and i really buy into what this weird yet profound german philosopher, has been exploring. his name is nicholas luhmann. and he said that what we really need to change is the quality of communication between the actors within the system if we wanna really see the systems changing. we can't change the actor themselves. they can only work on themselves on their own, and through that, they can change how they relate to each other. and the who cards and the who are you related questions are really focusing on enhancing this quality. so in itself, we are shifting the system around us just by communicating with each other from a different source and a different place.
Sarah: yeah. yeah. it all comes back on to the, the inner work and, you know, figuring out who we are. and, and that's what, you know, my seven p's of humane marketing are all about as well as like, well, because i think it's the same thing. it's also we're also a player in a system if we are marketing our services and if we are the seller and there's buyers out there. well, if we work on ourselves and we know who we are and we bring that out into the marketplace in quotation marks, and then we're being a different player. and so, therefore, the relationships with our clients and suppliers, etcetera, changes as well, because it's not in that same typical system anymore where i'm the seller and you're the buyer, but we're all of the sudden kind of like on the same playing field, because i come to this buyer seller equation from a different perspective, from a more holistic perspective. so i think i think i, yeah, i hear what you're saying. it's like it's not the it's not the system that you need to change. it's the humans in the system that will then impact the system. and therefore the, yeah, that the meaningful conversations play play a big role. yeah. so i think what we did last time is i just picked up a card. and then we had a conversation around that card. so i'm gonna do that again. and last time it was dancing. so that was fun because we got to dance. this time, it's something else. so, yeah. so the question is, what is a topic that is difficult for you to talk about at the moment? not the easiest question. right? so we can both still decide. okay. well, we can have this meaningful conversation just one on one, or we can have it on the podcast. but, yeah, let you decide that.
Tamas: yeah. and then and you can also invite in, an idea of how how deep, you know, i want to share, how deep you wanna share to this question because then the responsibility really really sits with the person who receives the question.
Sarah: right.
Tamas: and i myself am happy to answer this question with what's true to me at the moment. you know, i've been i've been a butterfly for the last ten years. i've been leading a fairly nomadic lifestyle, living in new zealand, in hungary, in switzerland, in taiwan, and then in many other places. and on the one hand, i really enjoy living an adventurous lifestyle. and on the other hand, i just very recently, i had to really realize that, i have a deep fear in me to ground and to settle down because i'm fearing to face the discomfort that comes with living a life that, you know, from time to time has boredom in it.
Sarah: mhmm.
Tamas: and boredom makes humans and makes me realize that, often i'm alone or often things maybe don't have any meaning or, yeah, maybe there is some sort of a sadness there that i haven't truly allowed myself to feel. mhmm. and it has been difficult to discuss this topic, and and it just been coming up very strongly. and, you know, what i'm learning now is that once i'm allowing myself to feel whatever is below this topic, suddenly, there is a sense of release. and with that comes a sense of space, which then grounds me more in my purpose to do this kind of work, which is not an easy work. because our mind is often cannot see the imagination that a different way of living or a different world is possible.
Sarah: mhmm.
Tamas: and i'm happy you asked this question because i've been on this journey, and now it feels like that suddenly it's becoming lighter to talk about this. mhmm. so maybe there's a sense of shift happening in there.
Sarah: yeah. that makes sense. well, thank you for sharing.
Tamas: thanks for listening. yeah. how about you?
Sarah: mhmm. yeah. there's there's several small things that i'm thinking about, what's very present right now. and and i haven't, you know, talked about it to too many people or or it's kind of like this intimacy thing, that i explained earlier. it's like, well, it's a topic that i talk about with, you know, friends and family, but not necessarily like on a podcast or or with my clients, etcetera. but we just, went through this journey with my with my with our son, our eldest, who, we knew for a while now that he's probably on the autistic spectrum. and and he's twenty one. and he he wanted to get a diagnosis because he just felt like it would help him to know. and so we just gone through that, this week and it was it was quite emotional. it was like at the same time, we really wanted it to hear it, that it's clear for him. and at, and at the same time, it's like, who, what a relief as parents also to know why maybe has been quite challenging, because there was, you know, there's just something wired differently in him and always has been. and and for us parents, yeah, it was not easy because we didn't know all these years. so, just just yeah. kind of my husband and i gave each other a big hug and high five and say, wow. look at look at us. we we did that. right? we somehow managed. and, you know, he's he's grown into a a very smart adult and and and it's it's like helpful for him to have this diagnosis now because he feels like, oh, i understand myself more. right? this is this is what we're talking about here. knowing who we are is really helpful to us. and and and i think the younger generation, they start way earlier for for i was joking with my husband in the car. it's like our my parents, they're in their seventies. and i feel like just right now, they're finally understanding who they are. and then our generation, i feel like i started probably understanding who i was when i was forty. and the this generation, young the young ones today, they're starting at twenty. right? and good for them because it's yeah. it really makes makes life much easier if you don't have to mask, everywhere. so, yeah, that's what's present for me right now.
Tamas: thanks for sharing.
Sarah: thank you. yeah.
Tamas: and you know, what what comes to me just as a quick reflection is that this work and and these questions are definitely travelling on two dimensions, and one is the self awareness and then the relational awareness. and i think it's eric frome who said in the art of loving that, paradoxically, you need to start loving being alone and looking inside to be able to start loving each other, meaning that to be able to start connecting to each other. yeah. that's beautiful.
Sarah: so to get back to maybe kind of, like, the business setting or even the yeah, let's let's call it the business setting. like, what's two things? what's your aspiration with, you know, bringing these conversations into the business world? and then after that, maybe we can because my audience, they're small business owners. right? they're not they're usually not working in the corporate setting. how can small business owners be these role models maybe and have more of these meaningful conversations with their clients or with their peers or things like that? mhmm.
Tamas: so, yeah, our aspirations are quite large at the moment. so we we're super happy that families and friends are buying these cars from us, and then we're going beyond that as well. so we're predominantly looking at the moment, working with events and conferences, to turn their, gatherings more human. this is something that keeps coming up over and over again. and, also, what keeps coming up is that even if the promise is there that this conference is going to be more human, there is something lacking in delivery. and so we're looking at these, places to actually show people, leaders, businessmen, organizational humans, that there is a sense of quality and profit or a return on investment when you start having these meaningful conversations and give them a taster so they can then decide, is this something for my organization? am i ready to have more authentic connections? because a lot of organizations are not, and that is okay, but many are. and so we wanna find those organizations, those leaders to work with to really bringing into their cultural dna once they get a bit of a taster in a conference or in an event. so that's for us, and that's an exciting journey because we are building, you know, a team based on human connections. we've been working on this for seven years. we are in for the long game, and, we are taking it slow. but as we go along, our human connections are so beautifully flourishing, and so many nice mindset shifting moments are happening to us that, i think each of us in the team are appreciating to be doing business in such a way.
Sarah: mhmm.
Tamas: and then for small business owners, you know, when you ask this question, what came back to me is this moment when i used to work for the cognitive science level of greenpeace, and we were doing a massive audience understanding in buenos aires. and, you know, these amazing campaigners were working on campaigns for urban people to change their way of being and way of living to become more sustainable, and they never talked on the ground with people. and i remember this morning when i have just asked them to go out without their phones and just look around, just see and sense from a different perspectives. and they were all coming back saying, like, wow. i've seen so many things in my own city that i have never seen before. and from that, the invitation was that to start having different kind of conversations with the people of buenos aires. and that really struck me of how these questions, these human to human connections can be used in understanding your audience, understanding your customers, and building a different kind of relationships to them. almost like, you know, when i think about small businesses, i i think about a lot of community type of business emerging. so how can we start looking at customers more like our community
Sarah: or
Tamas: more like our ambassadors? so all our customers of the who cards, we think about them more as, like, the people who want this vision to happen in the road, and we engage with them in human to human connections so that they can start feeling that they're not just consuming here. and we're shifting that narrative around buyer and seller, but they are becoming an active cocreator of this new reality that we wanna see. and i think small and medium sized businesses are a potential power powerhouse to start doing things differently, and i can totally see how meaningful conversations can, you know, start initiating this mindset shift both from the ownership perspective, but also from the customer perspective.
Sarah: yeah. i love that. makes so much sense. beautiful. well, i think everybody wants to set of those cards now. so please tell people where they can, find out more about the cards and your work and how they can connect with you?
Tamas: yeah. they can come to the who cards dot c c web page, which we probably put into the show show descriptions.
Sarah: i know.
Tamas: they can read about us. they can order a set of cards, or they they can also play it online for free because we don't want money to be a barrier for more meaningful conversations.
Sarah: yeah. it's wonderful. you can just go on on the website and and then there'll be the question of the day. so it's, yeah, i use it with, my community now. last time we talked, it was a few months ago, you asked me, so are you using them? and i'm like, not yet, but i will. and so now we started using them in the humane marketing circle. and yeah, it's really great to have the the website because the commute, the community calls are led by ambassadors of the community. and so they don't each have a set of the cards. but so they just go on the website, before the call and they pick the two questions. and so we always have these conversations in breakout rooms, with those two questions. and and i think, yeah, it just creates such a deeper quality of the call, which then the second half is still marketing and business related. but to have this foundation of, yeah, understanding each other as human beings. it makes everything different. so thank you so much. i have one last. yeah, i have one last question about the future. like, yeah, what kind of future trends do you see? how how this could change in in companies, for example? does it have to do with creating actual spaces? mhmm. or does it have to do with the management? like yeah. how do you see this changing in in in companies, for example?
Tamas: that's a very, very timely question. we've been doing a lot of research the last couple of months for our b two b offerings. and just yesterday, we came to this beautiful description called the relational design agency. and what we see is that there is a need for more spaces, whether that's online or offline for people to connect. this is the number one challenge for remote or remote first companies that that the employees are not able to connect with each other. right. but every organization, every conference, every gathering has their own culture, their own dna. so while we can support them with really interesting questions, we are realizing that there's a need to support them how to bring that into their own culture setting
Sarah: right.
Tamas: to really meet, where the audiences are. so i see a trend coming up, and and we want to put this expression on the market, relational design. it's somewhere already there, but not so strongly. but we see that, you know, technology and speed it up life is changing how we connect. so we need to start designing these spaces with more awareness and with more consciousness.
Sarah: yeah. that's really good. yeah. it's kinda like this, you know, we're saying that with ai developing there's bill, there'll be all these jobs lost, which is partially true. but there also be new jobs related. so maybe, you know, this title of relation, what did you call it? relational?
Tamas: relational design.
Sarah: yeah, relational designer, you're gonna have, you know, yeah, you have to really design the space for it. like what's happening in switzerland right now is, to me, it's crazy. the companies are bringing people back to, you know, from remote back to to to the office, which you could say, okay, that will help communication. but, obviously, people are not happy about it. but they're bringing them back, and they're putting them in open space. and so people are even less happy about that. so there there is a need for a new design, right? like, however that looks like, i don't know yet, but we can't just go back to the old and think that will solve the the problem. so, yeah, i think i think it's very much needed to to have these conversations around, well, how how it's it's great to have the questions, but we need to create the space for it and the time for it as well. right?
Tamas: exactly. exactly.
Sarah: great. well, thank you. wonderful. thanks so much for being here and, sharing your perspective and all the good work you do.
Tamas: thank you so much for having me.
Sarah: thanks, Tamas
Sarah: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and feel encouraged to hold the space for more meaningful conversations, whether it's in your personal life or in your business. find out more about thomas and the who cards at who cards dot c c. you can order a card set there or use the online version for free. that's what we're doing in the humane marketing circle. and if you are looking for meaningful conversations around life, marketing, and business, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. we always have a seven dollar trial where you can just check us out for fourteen days. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero one. two hundred and one episodes. on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, and it's really time to step up and be brave to create that change. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.
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