The Gray Area with Sean Illing takes a philosophy-minded look at culture, technology, politics, and the world of ideas. Each week, we invite a guest to explore a question or topic that matters. From the the state of democracy, to the struggle with depression and anxiety, to the nature of identity in the digital age, each episode looks for nuance and honesty in the most important conversations of our time. New episodes drop every Monday. From the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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How is the origin of our universe like an improvised saxophone solo? This week, Sean Illing talks to Stephon Alexander, a theoretical physicist and world-class jazz musician. Alexander is the author of The Jazz of Physics and his most recent book, Fear of a Black Universe. This episode features music by Stephon Alexander throughout, from his latest 2024 album Spontaneous Fruit and his 2017 EP True to Self.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Stephon Alexander (@stephstem), theoretical physicist, Brown University
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Revisiting the "father of capitalism"
Monday, August 19, 2024 • Duration 51:03
Sean Illing talks with Glory Liu, the author of Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism. Smith is most well-known for being the “father of capitalism,” but as Liu points out in her book, his legacy has been misappropriated — especially in America. They discuss his original intentions and what we can take away from his work today.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Glory Liu (@miss_glory), author; lecturer, Harvard University
References:
Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism by Glory Liu (Princeton; 2022)
Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life by Nicholas Phillipson (Yale; 2012)
Free to Choose: A Personal Statement by Milton & Rose Friedman (Harcourt; 1980)
“Adam Smith’s ‘History of Astronomy’ and view of science” by Kwangsu Kim (Cambridge Journal of Economics v. 36; 2012)
Works by Adam Smith:
The Wealth of Nations (1776)
Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759)
Lectures on Jurisprudence (1763)
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The world after nuclear war
Monday, June 17, 2024 • Duration 57:06
A mile of pure fire. A flash that melts everything — titanium, steel, lead, people. A blast that mows down every structure in its path, 3 miles out in every direction. Journalist Annie Jacobsen spent years interviewing scientists, high-ranking military officials, politicians, and other experts to find out how a nuclear attack would be triggered, the devastation it would cause, the ruptures it would create in the social fabric, and how likely it is to happen today. She wrote about all of this in her new book Nuclear War: A Scenario. Jacobsen spends the hour clearly laying out the horrifying yet captivating specifics for Sean, and the prospects for avoiding catastrophe.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Annie Jacobsen. Her book is Nuclear War: A Scenario
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What do we owe animals?
Thursday, January 5, 2023 • Duration 46:33
Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with philosopher and author Martha Nussbaum about her new book, Justice for Animals. Martha discusses several different ethical, legal, and metaphysical theories for how we humans should treat other non-human animals, and offers her own distinct new approach.
Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox
Guest: Martha Nussbaum, author; Ernst Freund Distinguished Service Professor of Philosophy, U. Chicago
References:
Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility by Martha Nussbaum (Simon & Schuster; 2022)
Drawing the Line: Science and the Case for Animal Rights by Steven M. Wise (Basic; 2003)
Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved by Frans de Waal (Princeton; 2006)
Animal Liberation: A New Ethics for Our Treatment of Animals by Peter Singer (1975)
Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to Other Animals by Christine Korsgaard (Oxford; 2018)
Political Liberalism by John Rawls (1993)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)
"Ag-Gag" Laws in the United States (Animal Legal Defense Fund)
Zoopolis: A Political Theory of Animal Rights by Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka (Oxford; 2011)
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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Best of: America's philosophy, with Cornel West
Thursday, December 22, 2022 • Duration 59:41
Sean Illing talks with Cornel West about the American philosophical tradition known as pragmatism. They talk about what makes pragmatism so distinctly American, how pragmatists understand the connection between knowledge and action, and how the pragmatist mindset can invigorate our understanding of democratic life and communal action today. Cornel West also talks about the ways in which pragmatism has influenced his work and life, alongside the blues, Chekhov, and his Christian faith.
This was an episode of The Philosophers, a series from Vox Conversations, originally released in May.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews writer, Vox
Guest: Cornel West (@CornelWest), author; Dietrich Bonhoeffer professor of philosophy & Christian practice, Union Theological Seminary
References to works by American pragmatists:
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882): "Self-Reliance" (1841)
William James (1842–1910): Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking (1907); The Varieties of Religious Experience (1902); "Is Life Worth Living?" (1895)
Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914): "The Fixation of Belief" (1877)
John Dewey (1859–1952): The Quest for Certainty (1929); "Emerson—The Philosopher of Democracy" (1903); The Public and Its Problems (1927)
Richard Rorty (1931–2007): "Pragmatism, Relativism, and Irrationalism" (1979); "Solidarity or Objectivity?" (1989)
Other references:
Cornel West Teaches Philosophy (MasterClass)
The American Evasion of Philosophy: A Genealogy of Pragmatism by Cornel West (Univ. of Wisconsin Press; 1989)
The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald (1925)
Plato, Republic (refs. in particular to Book 1 and Book 8)
The Phantom Public by Walter Lippmann (1925)
Leopardi: Selected Poems of Giacomo Leopardi (1798–1837), tr. by Eamon Grennan (Princeton; 1997)
"The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus (1942; tr. 1955)
Democracy & Tradition by Jeffrey Stout (Princeton; 2003)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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Best of: The necessity — and danger — of free speech
Monday, December 19, 2022 • Duration 53:30
Sean Illing talks with Washington Post media columnist Margaret Sullivan about his new book The Paradox of Democracy, which he co-authored with media studies professor Zac Gershberg. Sean and Margaret discuss the relationship between free expression and democratic society, talk about whether or not the January 6th hearings are doing anything at all politically, and discuss some potential ways to bolster democratic values in the media ecology of the present.
This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in July.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox
Guest: Margaret Sullivan (@Sulliview), media columnist, Washington Post
References:
The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (Chicago; 2022)
Ghosting the News: Local Journalism and the Crisis of American Democracy by Margaret Sullivan (Columbia Global Reports; 2020)
"Four reasons the Jan. 6 hearings have conquered the news cycle" by Margaret Sullivan (Washington Post; July 22)
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman (1985)
Newsroom Confidential: Lessons (and Worries) from an Ink-Stained Life by Margaret Sullivan (St. Martin's; Oct. 2022)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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The church of celebrity
Thursday, December 15, 2022 • Duration 57:05
Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Katelyn Beaty, author of the new book Celebrities for Jesus, about how the dynamics of fame, influence, and new media are changing our experience of religious faith. They discuss how celebrities like Billy Graham set the tone for a lionization of celebrity in the Evangelical Church, why faith leaders cultivate distance from their congregations and build influencer-style social media presences, and share their thoughts on the future of the Church in our perhaps increasingly celebrity-obsessed culture.
Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox
Guest: Katelyn Beaty (@KatelynBeaty), author
References:
Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church by Katelyn Beaty (Brazos; 2022)
"Inside Hillsong, the Church of Choice for Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant" by Taffy Brodesser-Akner (GQ; Dec. 17, 2015)
"After Columbine, martyrdom became a powerful fantasy for Christian teenagers" by Alissa Wilkinson (Vox; Apr. 17, 2019)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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Men and boys are struggling. Should we care?
Monday, December 12, 2022 • Duration 56:25
Sean Illing talks with author, researcher, and Brookings Institution senior fellow Richard V. Reeves about his new book Of Boys and Men, which documents the ways that males all over the industrialized world are struggling — and what to do about it. Sean and Richard talk about how this crisis among men has its roots in the progress societies have made toward gender equality, about what has been exposed as the playing field has become more level, and about how to challenge our traditional understandings of masculinity and fatherhood in order to address the crisis — which, Reeves says, will be to everybody's benefit.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Richard V. Reeves (@RichardvReeves), author; senior fellow, Brookings Institution; director, Future of the Middle Class Initiative
References:
Of Boys And Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It by Richard V. Reeves (Brookings; 2022)
"The State of American Friendship: Change, Challenges, and Loss" by Daniel A. Cox (American Survey Center; June 8, 2021)
Unbound: How Inequality Constricts Our Economy and What We Can Do about It by Heather Boushey (Harvard; 2019)
"Gender Achievement Gaps in U.S. School Districts" by Sean F. Reardon et al. (American Educational Research Journal vol. 56 (6); Apr. 25, 2019)
"The GOP's masculinity panic: David French on the cult of toughness on the Trumpist right" by Sean Illing (Jan. 5; episode here or here)
"Infrastructure Bill Must Create Pathways for Women To Enter Construction Trades" by Marina Zhavoronkova and Rose Khattar (Center for American Progress; Sept. 20)
12 Rules for Life by Jordan B. Peterson (Random House Canada; 2018)
"Few Good Men" by Kathryn Edin (American Prospect; Dec. 19, 2001)
"Redshirt the Boys: Why boys should start school a year later than girls" by Richard V. Reeves (The Atlantic; Sept. 14)
"What might interrupt men's suicide? Results from an online survey of men" by Fiona L. Shand et al. (BMJ vol. 5 (10); Oct. 15, 2015)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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The power of attention in a world of distraction
Thursday, December 8, 2022 • Duration 45:56
Sean Illing talks with Michael Sacasas, an author and teacher exploring the relationship between technology and society in his newsletter, The Convivial Society. This conversation is all about attention: what it exactly is, what its purpose is, and how it is under threat by the technology of modern society and its ubiquitous distractions. Michael calls upon venerated philosophers (like Simone Weil and Iris Murdoch) as well as contemporary writers (like Nicholas Carr and Jenny Odell) to make the case that figuring out how to command our attention is a matter of great moral significance, and is a crucial component of living a good life.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: L. Michael Sacasas (@LMSacasas), author of the newsletter The Convivial Society on Substack; associate director, Christian Study Center of Gainesville
References:
The Frailest Thing: Ten Years of Thinking About the Meaning of Technology by L.M. Sacasas (Gumroad; 2019)
"Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut (1961)
"Is Google Making Us Stupid?" by Nicholas Carr (The Atlantic; July/August 2008)
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
Blaise Pascal on Diversion, from the Pensées (1670)
"Reflections on the Right Use of School Studies with a View to the Love of God" by Simone Weil (1942)
"The idea of perfection" by Iris Murdoch (1964)
"Against Dryness" by Iris Murdoch (1961)
Simone Weil, letter to Joë Bousquet, Apr. 13, 1942: "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity."
"On Two Ways of Relating to the World" by L.M. Sacasas (The Convivial Society, Nov. 22)
How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell (Melville House; 2019)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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A veteran reporter on how to fix the news
Monday, December 5, 2022 • Duration 54:00
Sean Illing talks with James Fallows, veteran reporter and editor at The Atlantic, about the state of political journalism in America. Fallows has been covering the relationship between media and democracy since the mid-nineties, when his book Breaking the News presciently documented the roots of a growing mistrust in news media. Sean and James talk about the dangers facing the political press today, why national political news is not useful to most Americans, and what can be done to regain the people's trust in journalism.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: James Fallows (@JamesFallows), author of the newsletter, Breaking the News: Dispatches from a Veteran Reporter on Substack
References:
Breaking the News: How the Media Undermine American Democracy by James Fallows (Vintage; 1996)
Ashley Parker's tweet (Nov. 22)
"Exclusive: Naomi Biden On Her White House Wedding" by Chloe Malle (Vogue; Nov. 22)
Our Towns: A 100,000-Mile Journey Into the Heart of America by James Fallows and Deborah Fallows (Vintage; 2018)
Our Towns (HBO; 2021)
Local Independent Online News (LION) Publishers
"Leslie Moonves on Donald Trump: 'It May Not Be Good for America, but It's Damn Good for CBS'" by Paul Bond (Hollywood Reporter; Feb. 29, 2016)
Public Opinion by Walter Lippmann (1922)
"Correcting the Record; Times Reporter Who Resigned Leaves Long Trail of Deception" by Dan Barry et al. (New York Times; May 11, 2003)
"Weapons of Mass Destruction? Or Mass Distraction?" by Daniel Okrent (New York Times; May 30, 2004)
"3 Truths About Trump" by James Fallows (The Atlantic; July 13, 2015)
The Paradox of Democracy by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.
Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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