The Future Is Bright Podcast – Details, episodes & analysis

Private equity is circling the legal industry, and Lucian Pera is helping make sense of what that means for MSO law firms and beyond. 

Joining Chris Batz and Howard Rosenberg, Lucian breaks down how management services organizations (MSOs) and alternative business structures (ABSs) are giving outside investors new ways to participate in the economics of law - without running afoul of ethics rules like ABA Rule 5.4.

Lucian makes it clear that these models are tools, not shortcuts. For some firms, an MSO structure may unlock the capital needed for technology, acquisitions, or ambitious growth plans. For others, a traditional loan or internal funding might make more sense. The critical step, he argues, is matching structure to strategy, rather than chasing the latest buzz.

As interest from PE firms and family offices surges, the profession faces a choice: see outside money as a threat, or recognize the opportunities it brings to modernize how law firms operate. Lucian leans toward the latter. Just as medicine and accounting were reshaped by investment, he believes law is in the midst of its own slow-motion revolution where the business side of the profession is finally catching up with reality. For lawyers and investors alike, understanding MSOs, ABSs, and the ethics that govern them is a glimpse into where the legal market is headed next.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Meet Lucian Pera

01:04 MSO Law Firms Explained

05:09 Rule 5.4 and Legal Compliance

09:19 Market Trends and Investor Interest

15:45 Which Law Firms Are Using MSOs

18:17 Private Capital: Threat or Opportunity?

25:19 ABS Structures in Law Firms

30:10 ABS vs. MSO: Key Differences

32:10 Future Outlook for Law Firms and PE

Connect with Lucian Pera:

Connect with Lucian on LinkedIn

Lucian's Website Bio 

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

Connect with Howard on LinkedIn

Howard's Company Web Profile

Connect with Chris Batz:

Connect with Chris on LinkedIn 

Follow Columbus Street on LinkedIn

Columbus Street Website 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Mid-sized law firms are facing pressure from every direction. Associates are poached with six-figure pay bumps, partners are stretched thin between billing and management, and specialty practices vanish without succession plans. At the same time, clients expect broader reach and deeper benches than many firms can deliver.

In this episode, host Chris Batz shares what he's hearing directly from managing partners and executive committee members across the country. He outlines the squeeze mid-sized firms are feeling - lagging organic growth, talent retention challenges, leadership burnout - and the difficult choices leaders are weighing: scale up, go lean, or join a larger platform.

Chris also looks at the emerging role of private equity in law firm ownership and the ripple effects it could have on culture, compensation, and competition. Along the way, he points out steps firms can take now: sharpen strategic vision, invest in leadership and succession, strengthen recruiting systems, and pursue growth through the right mergers or acquisitions.

At its heart, this episode asks a question every firm should confront: how do you stay competitive without exhausting the people who make your firm strong?

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Why Mid-Sized Law Firms Are Struggling

03:30 Why Talent Keeps Leaving Mid-Sized Firms

04:28 The Leadership Burnout Crisis in Law Firms

07:37 Scenario 1: Losing Lead Counsel Work to Bigger Firms

11:31 Scenario 2: Rainmakers With No Succession Plan

14:04 Billing vs. Leading — Can Firm Leaders Do Both?

18:19 Growth Choices: Lateral Hires, Acquisitions, or Mergers

24:01 Should Mid-Sized Firms Join Larger Platforms?

26:09 The Hidden Cost of Burnout in Firm Leadership

32:17 How Private Equity Is Changing Law Firms

34:18 Strategies for Mid-Sized Firms to Compete

43:48 Key Lessons for Law Firm Leaders

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"It's all about people management," says today's guest Kristina Lawson, drawing parallels between her time as the former mayor of Walnut Creek, CA to her current role as managing partner at Hanson Bridgett LLP, a mid-sized firm which like Kristina, whose practice was in real estate and land use, has a deep connection and dedication to California and its communities. This values-based California law firm's equity partners comprise nearly 40 percent women—virtually unheard of in the AmLaw 200—which reflects its pioneering and foundational policies of diversity, equity and inclusion. On today's episode of The Future is Bright, Kristina discusses the firm's guiding principles, their agile workforce policy that pre-dated the Covid 19 pandemic, and its exemplary approach to transitioning power to the next generation. 

The key, Kristina explains, is a willingness to adapt to new working styles, seeing them as opportunities for growth rather than points of criticism. She also discusses the biggest threat to the business of law, the crucial piece of work culture she feels was lost to Covid, and how Hanson Bridgett LLP is navigating the advent of AI.

Join today's discussion to learn more about Kristina and Hanson Bridgett LLP's shared guiding principle of putting people first, and the number one issue that keeps her up at night. 

Quotes

• "It's helpful to check back in, both to ground me and the reasons I joined Hanson Bridgett and what Hanson Bridgett's all about, and again also to check in on those promises I made to our partnership about the direction we'd head in with me at the helm." (7:32 | Kristina Lawson)

• "Being the mayor of a mid-sized town and the managing partner of a mid-sized firm, there's a lot of consensus-building and it's all about people management. Whether it's constituent management as the mayor or managing the other members of the city council…it's all about figuring out where those consensus positions are and building trusted relationships, even with people that you don't agree with, on key issues, so that you can continue to move forward. Those are really the same issues we have here at our partnership." (8:20 | Kristina Lawson)

• "We need to adapt to where they're at. Just because they're doing something differently, does not mean they're doing it wrong." (15:47 | Kristina Lawson)

• "Founded by a group who really believed in diversity, equity and inclusion and values-based lawyering before it was a thing…One of the reasons I joined Hanson Bridgett was the firm has an equity partnership which is made up of just about 40 percent women." (18:57 | Kristina Lawson)

• "The number one thing that keeps me up at night is worrying about whether our people are well and whether we can improve their mental health and wellness as an organization." (22:22 | Kristina Lawson)

Links

Connect with Kristina Lawson:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/klawson/

Firm Website Bio: https://www.hansonbridgett.com/Our-Attorneys/kristina-d-lawson

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"It is still quite challenging to convince partners of the need for change when the traditional model is still serving them incredibly well," says Neville Eisenberg, Senior Strategy Executive, Mishcon de Reya, who joins The Future is Bright to talk about innovation taking place within UK law firms, innovation he helped contribute to with the contract attorney company, Lawyers on Demand, and now with Flex Legal, an alternative legal services provider now owned by Mishcon de Reya. Neville will discuss with hosts Chris Batz and Howard Rosenberg the growing number of opportunities in the alternative legal services provider market and what it means for private equity. 

He'll discuss the changes which have taken place in the UK legal landscape as a result of deregulation and a number of legal processes now available in a self-service capacity, and what this means in terms of social justice. He will discuss the widely differing implications of AI on Top 10 law firms and on everyone below them, and the disconnect between supply and demand that he finds most concerning. 

Learn Neville's thoughts on the crop of small high-performing law boutiques burgeoning in the UK and the importance of U.S. competition to the UK market. 

Quotes

• "It is still quite challenging to convince partners of the need for change, or indeed the value of spending money on doing things differently when the traditional model is still serving them incredibly well." (11:40 | Neville Eisenberg)

• "The Top Ten law firms in the UK generally regard Gen AI as likely to have a positive impact on their firms, in particular, because they see opportunity for productivity gains. But the rest of the Top 100, so the 90 firms below the top ten, have exactly the opposite, almost exactly, the opposite view of the impact of Gen AI in that they have significant concerns about the pressure that it might produce from clients to reduce cost of legal services and also that there may be a reduction in some of the work that's outsourced to their firms." (12:27 | Neville Eisenberg)

• "Notwithstanding the deregulation, there is still—it appears to me from my conversation with clients—there is still a disconnect between the demand side and the supply side in the market." (20:15 | Neville Eisenberg)

• "One doesn't have to be in a huge law firm to be successful. There is another model that can work." (30:20 | Neville Eisenberg)

• "It just seems to me that there is a very strong business case for many of these firms creating shared business services platforms that can benefit from scale economies, and all the other benefits of scale, and running those business services functions in a more effective way." (32:51 | Neville Eisenberg)

Links

Connect with Neville Eisenberg:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neville-eisenberg-47b2586/

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"Everyone deserves to feel like they matter," says Noah Heller, who as CEO of Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP has built a culture of communication and connection, of being consistently authentic and operating with integrity in work and in life. He joins this episode of The Future is Bright to explain how his firm has evolved under his 12-year tenure by seeking to understand the needs of others, making himself genuinely available to those around him, and utilizing the power of personal relationships.  

Noah also discusses his observations of the current U.S. legal market and his predictions for the coming decade. He explains his biggest surprise in taking on this leadership role, the greatest compliment he's been paid and the one issue that keeps him up at night. He will also share his advice about succession planning for law firm executives. 

In today's discussion, you'll learn how, by taking a genuine interest in people and their motivations, Noah was able to not only understand and meet, but exceed expectations to create a thriving workplace environment.

Quotes

• "For me, it's been a recognition that the power of my relationships is something that I should utilize as opposed to be[ing] afraid of." (6:43 | Noah Heller)

• "The thing that carried through really well between my practice and leadership was my ability to appreciate the importance of expectations, the importance of meeting and exceeding expectations, and also my ability to reasonably affect those expectations wherever I could." (14:05 | Noah Heller)

• "I'm so available and I care so much about my partners that I create a real—and it's not fake, it's real; it's a real perception—that I'm there, I'm available and when they need me, they can reach out. And so the fact that so many people feel that they have so much of my attention, really, and my caring is really humbling for me. I try to do this job the way I try to live my life, if that resonates. I don't put on a different outfit or a different persona the way that I lead this firm and the way I conduct myself in life." (16:34 | Noah Heller)

• "The thing that I'm the most proud of, that's evolved in the time that I've been in this role, is the way people are treated within these four walls has evolved over time, and to me, that is really, really important." (24:07 | Noah Heller)

Links

Connect with Noah Heller:

Law Firm bio: https://katten.com/Noah-Heller

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahsheller/

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"I suspect in the UK we're going to end up with some really deep, high-quality verticals…as opposed to lots of law firms having components," says today's guest Greg Jackson, Director of Law Firm Strategy and Transformation at PwC, who joins The Future is Bright to discuss this and many more predictions he has for the future of UK law firms. Along with co-hosts Chris Batz and Howard Rosenberg, Greg will compare UK firms to their American counterparts in terms of economics, leverage, rates and utilization, pay and expectations at the partner level, as well as yearly hours. He will explain why he's changed his view—however slightly—on the idea of growth for growth's sake, how the UK legal market is changing—including a particularly important one—and his advice for mid sized firms.

He will also explain how Alternative Business Structure will affect the UK model going forward and why U.S. outbound work to Europe is so important. He'll predict whether or not the UK will adopt a hybrid model, marrying innovation with tradition, as well as what to do when you've been on a steady upward trajectory for a sustained period of time, and the issue that keeps his clients up at night. 

What is the one thing that U.S. law firms do better than those across the pond? Join today's episode of The Future is Bright to find out. 

Quotes

• "One of the projects that I always encourage clients to do—and I did in my old world—was, How do you situate your exec or board in a ten percent off the top line reduction? Whether hours or price or some combination of the two? Situate yourself in that issue and think, 'What can we do about cash? What do we do with our clients? What work do you want to hold on to that we're willing to go for a downward cycle, even if it's painful?" (7:01 | Greg Jackson)

• "I don't know how this is played out in the U.S., but in the UK, in particular in the last 12 months, there have been a number of quite bad well-being incidents that have happened which have caused firms to really think about, 'How do you connect utilization into an understanding of what people are doing?' It can be quite hidden, to your point, big hours, etc." (14:58 | Greg Jackson)

• "When you think of what's coming in terms of technology investment, lawyer salaries, the need to be more international and cope with more complex regulatory environments to operate in the U.S./UK, I just see a world in which you need more scale." (19:47 | Greg Jackson)

• "I suspect in the UK we're going to end up with some really deep, high-quality verticals…as opposed to lots of law firms having components." (24:22 | Greg Jackson)

Links

Connect with Greg Jackson:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-jackson86/

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"We wanted it to be a true merger of equals," says Scott Kadish, who, along with Kevin McLaughlin, are Co-Managing Partners at the newly merged UB Greensfelder. On today's episode of The Future is Bright, the two men talk to host Chris Batz about what can happen when two firms marry their considerable strengths to make themselves even more competitive and able to take on bigger, more complex work. It's not an overnight process. It's the result of long, thoughtful considerate discussions, where all concerns and needs are met, responsibilities are divided fairly and sensibly, and where care is taken to make sure that all employees not only survive the merger, but are placed where they will be most successful. 

Even the new name UB Greensfelder was formed as the result of conscientious talks to ensure that neither firm felt that they were being acquired, but rather were moving forward together. While no merger is without its surprises, perhaps what's most surprising was how genuinely compatible the firms felt with each other. 

Today's discussion reflects what a genuinely pleasant experience this merger has been for both parties and what can happen when two powerful entities treat each other with mutual respect and are thoughtful down to the smallest details. 

Quotes

• "Both firms were really coming at this from positions of strength…Both firms were recognized for their work in a number of different practice areas, diverse practice areas…We came together because we thought we'd be better together—we're seeing that happen—not because we thought we were in desperation mode." (5:14 | Kevin McLaughlin) 

• "Neither of us wanted to feel like we were being acquired. We wanted it to be a true merger of equals and that required a discussion about, 'How do you do this and how do you do that?' Every single policy. And it was a discussion—we use that word intentionally—because it wasn't a negotiation…We also agreed—and I think this is key—that we were just going to try to figure out the best way to do it, the best practice, for everything." (12:56 | Scott Kadish) 

• "I think it's because of the length of time that we were talking that there really weren't any significant surprises. Conflicts—our general counsel, at one point he said to me, 'I am shocked at how few conflicts we're having.' And especially we didn't have any what I would call 'material conflicts'…in terms of impacting the overall firm, not really at all." (29:44 | Kevin McLaughlin)

• "The merger will really be successful if people develop new relationships and new contacts. Otherwise, if they're stuck in the same place and they don't reach out and develop these…then their practice is not going to be affected by the merger. But this is a unique opportunity to grow your client base and grow your business with people who you'll enjoy practicing with." (33:22 | Scott Kadish)

Links

Connect with Scott Kadish: 

Website bio https://www.ubglaw.com/scott-p-kadish

LinkedIn profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-kadish-3679a04/

Connect with Kevin McLaughlin:

Website bio https://www.ubglaw.com/kevin-t-mclaughlin

LinkedIn profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-mclaughlin-27703a8/

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"Teams and groups are much harder to pull off. The degree of difficulty is a challenge. There's a real prize if you get it right," says co-host Howard Rosenberg as he and Chris Batz dig into the complexities of law firm growth through team acquisitions. They emphasize the strategic advantage of acquiring teams rather than individual hires. It's a more challenging process, but the rewards—stronger firm cohesion, better retention, and a lower risk profile—make it worth the effort.

Chris notes that many firms are now open to making bold moves, like doubling their size through mergers. But both hosts point out that the real test is in integrating these new teams into the firm's culture and structure. What makes for a smooth transition? They agree that a clear plan, strong leadership, and a compelling market story are essential. For any firm aiming to grow, this episode serves as a reminder that success lies in more than just closing the deal—it's about executing a thoughtful, sustainable strategy.

Quotes

• "If a law firm leader can do 10 onesies and twosies over the course of 12 months, that's going to create some runway. That's going to make it happen. But teams and groups are much harder to pull off. The degree of difficulty is a challenge. There's a real prize if you get it right, but again, there's a lot more work involved in pulling together a team. The team has to go together, and the conflicts have to be resolved." (00:50 | Howard Rosenberg) 

• "Everyone wants a team or a group because it lowers the risk profile of doing these deals in the marketplace. They have a better traction rate in terms of… They don't stick around for a lot longer. They're embedded in the organization. They don't leave as easily. There are obviously integration issues, but with the onesies and twosies, a lot of management time is spent just bringing those people to the line." (01:24 | Howard Rosenberg) 

• "I think firms need to be focused and strategic, but they also need to be open-minded about how they go about that process." (05:11 | Chris Batz)

• "For firms to remain competitive, they have to think in larger acquisition sizes. But I respect firms that don't have a desire to grow in dramatic ways. Continuing to do what they've done because it works for them is fine but the competitive landscape is changing." (13:56 | Chris Batz)

Links

 Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"This is really new territory that is going to challenge the way some of these law firms are run and how the industry responds to that going forward over the next couple of years," says co-host Howard Rosenberg. In this episode, Howard and Chris Batz dive into the rising trend of superstar law partners landing eight-figure salaries and the major impact it's having on firm management, client relationships, and talent acquisition.

As these high-profile lateral hires bring in up to $20 million, firms are being pushed to rethink compensation models and operations. Howard shares insights from his recent trip to London, where law firm leaders voiced mixed reactions. Some are worried about staying competitive, while others are dealing with pay scale compression, affecting both junior and senior attorneys. Could this shift spark a major overhaul in how firms operate and structure their fees?

The episode also looks at how technology, artificial intelligence, and market changes might shape the legal industry in the coming decade. Will firms adapt to these shifts, or face disruption? It's clear the legal landscape is at a turning point.

Quotes

• "This is really new territory that is going to challenge the way some of these law firms are run and how the industry responds to that going forward over the next couple of years. I think that's really exciting. It is what it is; it's not going to change, but how firms deal with and respond to it is an open book." (01:09 | Howard Rosenberg) 

• "You have these firms hiring outrageous talent, entire teams following them, and the market consolidating with specialists going to the high-rate firms, leaving these 600-plus firms holding the bag. They are now forced to make really difficult decisions. It's amazing to see the effects of COVID, the expectations for first-year associate salaries skyrocketing—what, $215k now, I believe—and this new superstar level of talent is taking material percentage points of revenue away from firms to platforms that can truly resource them in ways others can't even come close to. So yes, it's absolutely changing the game." (05:49 | Chris Batz) 

• "I'm curious what the implications will be for new attorney hires and the junior partners who are looking at the ranks and wondering, 'Where's my future in this firm?' And then there's the vision coming from the leadership team as the firm continues to evolve, with such a huge, almost moon-like presence coming into the orbit of the firm, affecting the entire ecosystem." (07:58 | Chris Batz)

• "I think you're going to see a whole change in the industry with technology coming on board, along with AI, talent, and pricing. All these ingredients are mixing in a way that will change the very dynamics of the industry going forward." (11:00 | Howard Rosenberg)
  

Links

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn Company page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street website: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"For a lot of law firm leaders that I'm in contact with, this is their central challenge: to chart a path of sustained growth." says new co-host Howard Rosenberg who joins co-host Chris Batz to continue their discussion about the best way for law firms to form, based on data and intelligence, a structured strategy approach to growth through acquisition. 

It's not easy, Chris explains, and requires discipline, long term thinking, and learning to "say no to the shiny objects." Law firms remain people-first industry built on talent wherein, nonetheless, that very personnel tends to turn over quickly, among other daily changes and distractions.Therefore it's important to form a well-defined, codified plan with solid parameters and to be able to communicate it clearly across the entire team.

Join today's discussion to learn why Chris says strategy is king and to hear Howard delve into the true meaning of growth.

Quotes

• "For a lot of law firm leaders that I'm in contact with, this is their central challenge: to chart a path of sustained growth. The question is, 'Where do they do it? What practice areas get the investment and which people in those practice areas get the priority for either acquisitions or just time and attention because one thing can't be done in isolation without understanding the rest of the firm. So, it's a really complex equation, but it's the route for growth." (0:51 | Howard Rosenberg) 

• "Frankly, it's strategy. It's this idea of knowing what to say 'no' to and knowing what to say 'yes' to. This approach is structured, it's intentional, and it's avoiding the shiny objects that pull firms away from truly accomplishing their strategic goals."  (1:54 | Chris Batz) 

• "The most successful managing partners that I'm in contact with seem to realize they're in the talent business. It's a talent asset business, and the talent walks out the door every day and comes back in the morning, and I think you cannot grow without having the best people in the best seats within the law firm. And that changes your perspective about how you go for growth." (7:58 | Howard Rosenberg)

• "There's a trade-off. Someone's trading something when that's taking place. I have clients who do it. Some of it has to do with size, frankly. For the smaller firms, it's harder to dedicate time. Everyone's got to be rowing the same way and have to be contributing to the bottom line. Again it goes back to this fun topic of 'size matters.' (10:02 | Chris Batz)

• "Growth —what does that mean? I still come back to the definition of growth. It may not be purely revenue growth. It may be doing more interesting work or more sustained work that has less pricing variability…Every firm has to take this decision for themselves; it's not a cookie-cutter approach." (11:23 | Howard Rosenberg)

Links

Connect with Howard Rosenberg:

LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrosenberg/

Company web profile: https://www.baretzbrunelle.com/howard-rosenberg

Connect with Chris Batz:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/columbus-street/

Columbus Street: https://www.columbus-street.com/ 

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm