Explore every episode of the podcast The Fourth Curtain
Dive into the complete episode list for The Fourth Curtain. Each episode is cataloged with detailed descriptions, making it easy to find and explore specific topics. Keep track of all episodes from your favorite podcast and never miss a moment of insightful content.
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Title
Pub. Date
Duration
Grade Expectations 2025
18 Dec 2025
00:46:13
For our end of year episode Aaron and Alex reflect on the year and a raft of topics in videogame dev: Steam Deck vs Switch, understanding how AI will work for dev, Netflix's place and "successful to nice" ratios! Devils and Dungeonauts within - this week!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Live Long and Prosper with Amazon's Christoph Hartmann
16 Oct 2025
01:22:16
VP of Amazon Games Christoph Hartmann is our guest. At BMG he helped launch GTA and went on to co-found 2K Games and publish NBA 2K, Civilization, Bioshock and Borderlands. We discuss the upcoming King of Meat, a very fresh take on how AI can help gamedev and more - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Intro: Christoph Hartmann
[00:20:32] From Music to Games: Christoph’s First Break at BMG Christoph shares how his early exposure to computers led to an internship at BMG Interactive — a move that launched his career from music into video games
[00:28:03] Learning from Sam: Building for the Future Christoph reflects on learning from his leaders and how to run a company with one eye on the horizon — always anticipating industry shifts to stay ahead.
[00:31:32] Founding 2K Games: Building a Creative Powerhouse He talks about the creation of 2K Games and how the studio became home to major franchises like BioShock and Borderlands.
[00:40:10] Captain Kirk, Not Spock: Leading Overnight Christoph shares how he was suddenly handed leadership responsibilities, earning the nickname “Captain Kirk” while his second-in-command was called “Spock.” He jokes, “I’m not Spock,” but explains what it taught him about command and trust.
[00:42:12] Spotting Winners: How Christoph Evaluates Studios He breaks down what he looks for when assessing game studios — from creative spark to execution — and when it’s the right time to buy in or step back.
[00:49:12] Embracing AI: Innovation, Adaptation, and Opportunity Christoph discusses how new technology, including AI, could actually improve development — making gameplay more adaptive and lowering production costs.
[00:59:34] Joining Amazon Games: Betting on Live Service Futures After a moment of career reflection, Christoph joined Amazon to explore live service games — a model he believes represents the future of the industry. He shares why he finds Amazon’s culture both exciting and rewarding.
[01:04:15] Leading Smart Teams: Managing a Crew of “Spocks” At Amazon, Christoph leads teams full of brilliant problem-solvers — his “Spocks.” He explains how he adapts his leadership to align incentives, empower experts, and keep learning as a leader.
[01:11:57] Bridging Creativity and Business: The In-Between Role Christoph describes himself as the bridge between creative vision and business strategy, uniting both worlds to make better games. He also teases Amazon’s upcoming project, King of Meat.
[01:16:56] Outro: Wrapping Up and Reflecting on AI’s Power Demand Alex and Aaron close out the episode, reflecting on Christoph’s insights and joking about the future of AI — and the nuclear power plants we might need to keep it all running.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Night Street's Mac Reynolds Captures the Last Flag
03 Jul 2025
01:12:57
Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games.
[00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons to Founding a Game Studio Learn how Mac transitioned from music manager to game studio co-founder with his brother Dan Reynolds, lead singer of Imagine Dragons.
[00:11:00] Building Night Street Games: A True Family Venture Mac discusses starting Night Street Games, working with Dan, and their love for classic developers like LucasArts and Sierra.
[00:17:00] Designing Last Flag: A New Take on Capture the Flag Hear how Last Flag evolved from a simple concept into a competitive third-person multiplayer game inspired by hide-and-seek.
[00:21:00] Innovative Gameplay: Radar Towers, Seeker Drones & Strategy Mac breaks down the unique mechanics that make Last Flag stand out—like territory control and high-stakes flag defense.
[00:29:00] Leaving Law for Creativity and Founding a Studio From law school to the Grammy Awards to launching a game studio, Mac reflects on choosing passion over a traditional career path.
[00:44:00] Building a Remote, Scalable Game Team from Scratch He explains how Night Street scaled to over 50 people, balancing internal hires with tightly integrated outsourcing.
[00:56:00] Comparing Music & Games: Creativity, Community & Joy Mac reflects on what games and music have in common—creation, community, and the magic of bringing people joy.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Bill Roper is Infinity Plus One
27 Apr 2023
01:17:55
On this episode of The Fourth Curtain, Alex and Aaron have long time pal and game maker Bill Roper on the program talking about the early days of Blizzard, his love of music, building HellGate London and the joyride that was Disney Interactive. We get a peek at some of the special items in Bill's collection and he may even do a voice or two!
Bill Roper arrives at: 10:00 Alex mentions a "A Theory of Fun" by old pal Raph Koster.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Marty O'Donnell Goes Total Audio
20 Apr 2023
01:28:40
In this week's episode Alex & Aaron get a chance to catch up with long time friend and composer Marty O'Donnell. We talk about video game music and how production value in games has gotten so, so good. Marty explains how the unique Halo theme came to be and we hear how Marty used the classic Bagels and Cream Cheese maneuver to convince Sir Paul McCartney to make a move into video games.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Chris Taylor's Total Siege!
13 Apr 2023
01:26:48
Alex and Aaron hang with Dungeon Siege and Total Annihilation creator Chris Taylor. We talk games as film, the challenges and benefits of work from home, Chris’s never ending energy and positive attitude and how he escaped a near death experience alongside Tetris legend Henk Rogers! Plus many insider stories!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
It's Patrick Curry's [Guilty] Party
13 Apr 2023
01:32:00
Join Alex and Aaron for a conversation with Patrick Curry, designer on Stubbs The Zombie, John Woo’s Stranglehold and game director of Disney’s Guilty Party and founder of four studios! We find out how Patrick worked on both (and only) licensed Halo engine games, naming a game studio, finding a moral compass when it comes to handling violence in games and the future of VR.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
EP0 - Take a Peek Behind the Fourth Curtain!
24 Mar 2023
00:11:09
In this brief first episode, hosts Alex Seropian and Aaron Marroquin introduce you to The Fourth Curtain: a new podcast featuring conversations with the developers of amazing video games.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Our guest this week is the poster boy for educational software going massively mainstream, Phillip Bouchard. Starting in the world of mainframes he created a worldwide hit on Apple II and beyond. We talk Apple getting kickstarted and science for fun and profit this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] The Legacy of The Oregon Trail: Still Remembered 40 Years Later Philip reflects on the surprising longevity of The Oregon Trail, a game still remembered decades after its release and played by new generations.
[00:08:00] Dysentery and Game Design: Origins of a Legendary Game Over Screen Discover how the infamous “You have died of dysentery” message became part of the 1985 version—and why it wasn’t in the original 1971 text-only release.
[00:13:00] Building the Classic Version: Small Team, Big Impact Learn how a five-person team crafted the Apple II version that defined The Oregon Trail, combining educational goals with entertaining gameplay.
[00:20:00] From Text to Graphics: A Full Redesign for Apple II Philip explains how the 1985 version was a complete rebuild with new code, visual assets, and expanded simulations—leaving the original codebase behind.
[00:25:00] State-Owned Software: The Story of MEC and Minnesota’s Role Explore how Minnesota’s state-funded organization MEC developed and distributed The Oregon Trail, influencing early educational software nationwide.
[00:36:00] Instant School Success: How Teacher Demand Took Over After initially launching only in the home market, teacher demand led to widespread adoption of The Oregon Trail in classrooms across North America.
[00:41:00] Life After Oregon Trail: From Munchers to Broderbund Philip talks about his post-Oregon Trail career, including work on the Munchers series and his time at Broderbund and McGraw-Hill.
[00:45:00] Writing, AI Art, and Retirement: Philip’s Current Creative Life Now retired, Philip shares his passion for writing science books, experimenting with AI art, and staying curious across new creative hobbies.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Killer Instinct's Adam Boyes Tears Down the Walls
19 Jun 2025
01:20:11
Our guest this week is Adam Boyes, longtime co-CEO of Iron Galaxy and now founder of Vivrato. From Killer Instinct to The Last of Us Part I, he’s helped bring major games to life and now supports devs launching their own. We discuss putting in raunchy stuff, nemawashi and his magic deck of challenges - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] "Shipping Will Burn You": Why Making Games Is the Best Teacher Adam kicks off with advice for aspiring devs: build, release, and learn from failure—because real growth comes from shipping games, not just dreaming them.
[00:08:00] From Farm Town to QA: Adam’s Unlikely Start at EA Sports Hear how Adam landed his first job in games testing NBA Live 97 and FIFA 98, despite growing up in rural Canada with dreams of working on NHL games.
[00:15:00] Modding Roots and BBS Culture: The Birth of a Developer Adam shares how his love for PC modding and running a Jurassic Park–themed BBS shaped his curiosity and multi-discipline approach to game development.
[00:27:00] The Wild Days at Midway: Slugfest, Blitz & Studio Chaos From canceled games to f-bomb-filled meetings, Adam reflects on Midway’s raw, chaotic culture—and how it helped him grow as a producer and leader.
[00:34:00] “Nemo Washi”: Building Consensus Like a Japanese Producer Adam explains the Japanese business concept of Nemo Washi, and how it shaped his leadership style—building trust, alignment, and resource sharing across teams.
[00:44:00] Smashing Red Tape at PlayStation: Killing the Concept Submission Process At Sony, Adam eliminated outdated approval systems and championed indie access, unlocking millions in dev revenue and streamlining platform entry.
[00:50:00] Iron Galaxy’s Secret Sauce: Co-Development with the Best in the Biz Adam discusses co-developing Skyrim, Diablo III, The Last of Us Part I, and Fortnite—and how Iron Galaxy became one of the industry’s most trusted studios.
[00:56:00] Launching Vivrato: Solving the Game Industry’s Hardest Problems Now at Vivrato, Adam's mission is to help devs at all levels—focusing on industry-wide challenges with a personalized, high-impact advisory approach.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Dead by Daylight’s Rémi Racine Bets on Himself
12 Jun 2025
01:07:43
Our guest Rémi Racine is the founder & CEO of Behaviour Interactive—the studio behind Dead by Daylight and dozens of other titles. A veteran of the games industry for over 25 years, Rémi has helped shape not just iconic games but also the entire Canadian game development landscape - this week!
00:02:10 — From Montreal to Mainstream: Remi’s first game at age 24
Discover how Remi’s early passion project turned into a pioneering move in Canadian game development.
00:08:45 — The Birth of Behaviour Interactive
Learn how Remi spun off from Multimedia Interactive to create a now-iconic game studio.
00:14:30 — Behind the Scenes of Dead by Daylight
Remi discusses the strategy, surprises, and evolution of Behaviour’s biggest hit.
00:19:55 — How to Keep a Game Studio Independent
A rare look at the decisions and principles that kept Behaviour from being acquired.
00:27:12 — The Reality of Licensing vs. Original IP
Get Remi’s take on the balance between creative control and commercial viability.
00:34:00 — What Triple-A Studios Get Wrong
Insights from Behaviour’s CEO on the cracks in big-budget game development.
00:41:10 — Advice for Young Game Developers
Remi shares the practical skills and mindset that aspiring devs should master.
00:49:55 — His Bold Bet on Service-Based Games
Explore why Remi believes in games as ongoing services—and what makes that sustainable.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Uncharted's Nolan North's Weird Ability to Yell
05 Jun 2025
01:16:07
Our guest Nolan North has brought to life your favorite videogame characters with his voice! From Uncharted's Nathan Drake and Assassin's Creed's Desmond Miles, to scores of others, he is a top talent in the industry. We discuss the freedom of preparation and being broke but happy - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] From Soap Operas to Sound Booths: Nolan North’s Unexpected VO Journey Nolan shares how a friend encouraged him to pivot from acting on Port Charles to voice acting—kicking off a prolific video game career.
[00:06:00] Recording Anywhere: How Remote VO Work Changed the Industry Nolan explains how post-pandemic voiceover work allows actors to record high-quality audio from home studios across the country.
[00:12:00] Childhood Impressions and Baseball Dreams Hear how Nolan’s early love for mimicking voices and playing sports shaped his journey before he ever touched a microphone.
[00:20:00] Breaking In with $750 and a Yell Nolan recalls his first video game gig, yelling lines for just $750—and how that led to a reputation as a go-to, reliable voice actor.
[00:26:00] Bringing Nathan Drake to Life with Performance Capture Nolan details how Uncharted rehearsals, ad-libbing, and trust from Amy Hennig made the character of Nathan Drake feel human and iconic.
[00:33:00] Going Beyond the Voice: Crafting Penguin, Joker & More Nolan dives into his diverse range—from his gruff Penguin in Arkham to an offbeat version of the Joker and even made-up languages.
[00:47:00] Voice Acting Wisdom: It's Not Rejection, It’s Fit He reflects on casting experiences and why actors should focus on authenticity over perfection—it’s about the right fit, not the best read.
[01:00:00] The Power of Preparation & Professionalism in Voice Work Nolan stresses the importance of showing up early, knowing your lines, and respecting the team—success is in the discipline.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Hogwarts Legacy's John Blackburn is Cool in the Arcade
29 May 2025
01:09:19
Our guest John Blackburn is a founder and CEO of Avalanche Software, makers of hundreds of games for dozens of platforms, such as Hogwarts Legacy and Disney Infinity. He has tales of when games paid royalties and having to take a chance. We discuss how to talk to execs and being true but not canon - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Mortal Kombat Funded Avalanche’s Origins John Blackburn reveals how Avalanche Studios was launched thanks to Mortal Kombat Trilogy royalties—literally bankrolling the studio's earliest days.
[00:13:00] Salt Lake City: An Underrated Game Dev Hotspot John shares the rich game development legacy of Salt Lake City, from the roots of Sculptured Software and Access Software to Avalanche and beyond.
[00:21:00] Working on Mortal Kombat at Sculptured Software John discusses his first big project as a junior programmer, working on Mortal Kombat for Super Nintendo—with access to an arcade machine right outside his office.
[00:25:00] The Crazy Coincidences Behind Avalanche’s Founding Learn how a failed job offer, a chance bar conversation, and a loophole in rights ownership led to Avalanche’s first contract with Midway.
[00:31:00] Mortal Kombat Trilogy: The Royalty Deal That Changed Everything Blackburn explains how the CD-based release of Mortal Kombat Trilogy and a classics reprint led to a royalty windfall that solidified the studio’s future.
[00:40:00] Disney Acquires Avalanche for Platforming Expertise John recounts how Avalanche’s work on licensed platformers like Tack and the Power of Juju led to Disney acquiring the studio after seeing early progress on Chicken Little.
[00:54:00] How Disney Infinity Was Born from Toy Story 3’s Toy Box Mode Infinity started as a toy-themed platform game before pivoting into the toys-to-life genre after the success of Skylanders—with the blessing of Bob Iger.
[01:00:00] The Secret Behind Hogwarts Legacy: Portkey Games & Creative Freedom Blackburn shares how Portkey Games enabled Avalanche to develop an original story set in the Wizarding World—without needing to retell the Harry Potter books.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
What Have You Got to Lose with Blizzard's Michael Morhaime
22 May 2025
01:13:02
Our guest Michael Morhaime was President and CEO of Blizzard during its glory years, shipping Warcraft, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, Diablo and more! Now Founder and CEO Dreamhaven he's won an Emmy and is in the AIAS Hall of Fame. We discuss red tape, how many billion dollar franchises you need on your resume and more - this week!
[00:01:00] Blizzard’s High Standards: Canceling Half Their Games Mike reveals that Blizzard canceled nearly half of its projects to maintain quality, highlighting their ruthless pursuit of excellence—a strategy echoed by studios like Supercell.
[00:10:00] Founding DreamHaven: A Haven for Creative Freedom Mike discusses how DreamHaven was built on the values that made Blizzard great: empowering internal studios, creative autonomy, and attracting AAA talent.
[00:14:00] Why “DreamHaven”? The Story Behind the Studio’s Name Mike shares the inspiration behind DreamHaven’s name, emphasizing its vision as a safe space for innovation and creators.
[00:25:00] Early Days at Blizzard: From Electrical Engineer to Game Developer Mike recounts how he transitioned from an EE background to co-founding Blizzard, even bringing the pitch to his dad for approval.
[00:32:00] First Console and Coding: The Bally Professional Arcade A nostalgic dive into Mike’s first experience with programming via a BASIC cartridge console—a formative moment in his tech journey.
[00:44:00] Navigating Acquisitions: How Blizzard Stayed True to Itself Mike outlines Blizzard’s acquisition history (Davidson, Sierra, Vivendi, Activision) and how the studio maintained independence through it all.
[00:50:00] Blizzard’s Secret to Long-Term Success: Prioritizing Players Mike explains how being founder-led and focused on long-term value creation helped Blizzard consistently ship polished, player-first games.
[00:58:00] DreamHaven’s Future Vision: Platform Strategy & First Games Mike talks about shipping on Steam, using Unreal/Unity for the first time, and the philosophy behind DreamHaven’s early development choices.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Sims' Bing Gordon is Specifically Right
15 May 2025
01:15:48
Our guest Bing Gordon has had a long successful run in videogames and tech. From marketing lead to Chief Creative Officer at EA, he helped shaped NASCAR, The Sims and other huge titles. We discuss pitching, two beer strategies and Speilberg's smoke test - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:04:00] How Bing Gordon Helped Launch Electronic Arts
Bing shares the story of co-founding EA when it was a scrappy startup in 1983, including raising $2 million in funding and being the company’s one-person marketing department.
[00:07:00] Reading the Room: How Bing Predicted Game Success
Bing explains how walking into a studio could tell him whether a game would ship on time and be successful—drawing parallels to retail psychology and intuition.
[00:10:00] Meeting Trip Hawkins and Dreaming of Virtual Worlds
Bing recounts meeting Trip Hawkins at Stanford and discussing early ideas about creating a “virtual Disneyland,” which inspired their future at EA.
00:17:00] Why Bing Fell in Love with Games
He discusses his childhood fascination with puzzles, invented games, and the dream of living multiple lives through games, likening them to the metaverse.
[00:18:00] Steven Spielberg on Games vs. Movies
Bing recalls Spielberg’s take on video games as a “lean-in” medium compared to passive film watching, and how body language helped refine cinematic pacing.
[00:23:00] Designing the NASCAR Draft Meter to Win Over Critics
Bing talks about a near failure in NASCAR Racing’s development and how adding a visual “draft meter” salvaged the game’s perception and success.
[00:51:00] What Makes a Great Founder?
Bing shares his top insight into investing: founders who give you an insight you've never heard before are often the most successful.
[00:55:00] The Risk of Being 'Generally Right, Specifically Wrong'
He explains how being close to a great idea, but missing key details, can result in failure—coining the phrase “generally right, specifically wrong.”
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Portal's Kim Swift's Cake is Not a Lie
08 May 2025
01:15:49
Our guest Kim Swift turned a student demo into the mega-hit Portal. Previously the Head of Creative for Xbox Games Publishing, she also did level design on Left 4 Dead and was Design Director for Star Wars: Battlefront II. We discuss how to pitch, owning IP on Mars and whether or not the cake is a lie - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:21] Kim Swift’s Game Design Origin Story
Kim talks about how she got into game development by modding games like Doom and Quake, which eventually led to her joining Valve right out of college.
[00:04:37] The Birth of Portal: From Student Project to Valve
Kim explains how her DigiPen student project Narbacular Drop caught Valve’s attention and led to the creation of Portal.
[00:10:50] Working With Gabe Newell and Valve’s Culture
Kim describes Valve’s flat hierarchy, creative freedom, and how working with Gabe Newell shaped her career.
[00:14:08] Creative Constraints in Game Design
She shares how limits and constraints actually helped drive innovation in Portal’s level design.
[00:20:22] The Magic of Short Games: Why Portal Was Just Right
Kim reflects on why Portal was intentionally short and how the team prioritized player experience over game length.
[00:25:46] From Valve to Big Tech: Her Leap Into Cloud Gaming
She discusses her transition from traditional studios to roles at Amazon and Xbox, focusing on innovation in cloud gaming.
[00:33:10] Leadership Advice: Trust Your Gut and Advocate for Yourself
Kim offers advice for aspiring leaders in tech: trust your instincts, advocate for your ideas, and know your worth.
[00:42:15] Kim’s Hopes for the Future of Games
She envisions a future where games are more inclusive, emotionally resonant, and push the boundaries of storytelling.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Blinding Flame of Red Dead's Christian Cantamessa
01 May 2025
01:21:15
Our guest Christian Cantamessa began in point and click adventures before becoming lead designer and writer for Red Dead Redemption. Now CEO of Day 4 Night Studios Inc., he is also the writer and director of the film, Air. We discuss concern about GTA III, embracing the game and telling stories in games - this week!
[00:00:00] – From Donald Duck to GTA III: Career Whiplash Christian recalls the surreal leap from working on a Donald Duck GBA game to contributing to Grand Theft Auto III at Rockstar Games.
[00:07:00] – Founding Day for Night Studios and Teaching at USC Christian shares updates on founding Day for Night Studios, collaborating with legendary composer Grant Kirkhope, and teaching screenwriting at USC.
[00:15:00] – How Growing Up in Italy Shaped His Game Development Dreams Christian discusses his early life in Italy, making camcorder movies, discovering Monkey Island, and finding a love for storytelling through games.
[00:27:00] – Early Struggles: Typing Code from Magazines and Hand-Me-Down Computers He shares the challenges of learning basic programming on a Commodore 16 and ZX Spectrum without formal training or abundant resources.
[00:46:00] – Breaking Into Rockstar: Cold Email to Working on GTA III Christian tells the story of how a spontaneous email to DMA Design led to his move to Scotland to help finish GTA III—despite having no prior open-world experience.
[00:53:00] – Designing Emergent Gameplay for GTA III He explains how Rockstar embraced unintended player behavior, turning it into a core design philosophy that shaped GTA III’s legendary sandbox style.
[00:56:00] – Leading Design on Manhunt and Red Dead Redemption After GTA III, Christian became the lead designer of Manhunt and helped shape the narrative and world-building of Red Dead Redemption.
[01:00:00] – The Price of Creative Passion: Burnout and Sacrifice Christian reflects on the emotional and personal cost of spending five intense years building Red Dead Redemption, and whether true greatness requires full commitment.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Trip Hawkins, the Electronic Artist
09 Oct 2025
01:29:00
We're thrilled to speak with Trip Hawkins, founder and CEO EA, 3DO, Digital Chocolate and more. From childhood football strategy, to WWIII Sims, he grew to make a company of electronic artists who made legendary games. Calming Steve Jobs, hacking consoles and many firsts - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Celebrating 100 Episodes and a Wild Week for EA Alex and Aaron mark The Fourth Curtain’s 100th episode and react to the breaking news that Electronic Arts is being taken private.
[00:02:31] What Happens When a Giant Like EA Gets Bought? The hosts break down what a private-equity acquisition really means for EA, from stock prices to internal culture shifts.
[00:05:10] Founding Electronic Arts: Trip’s Vision for Creative Freedom Trip shares how he built EA around empowering developers and treating them like rock stars — a radical idea in the early ’80s.
[00:17:44] The Apple Years: Working Under Steve Jobs Trip reflects on his early days at Apple, what he learned from Steve Jobs, and how that experience shaped his entrepreneurial mindset.
[00:33:28] Madden, Licensing, and Building a Sports Empire Trip talks about the birth of Madden NFL, navigating licensing deals, and why the franchise became a cornerstone of EA’s success.
[00:48:56] The 3DO Era: Ambition, Innovation, and Hard Lessons He opens up about the 3DO console — what went wrong, what it taught him, and how to recover when innovation gets ahead of its time.
[01:04:37] The Future of Games and Trip’s Next Chapter Trip closes by sharing his outlook on AI, creativity, and what he’s building next after a lifetime of shaping the games industry.
[01:20:14] Trip Hawkins on Failure, Resilience, and Reinvention Trip opens up about the three “acts” of his life — the rise, the fall, and learning to rebuild after hitting rock bottom.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Command and Conquer's Louis Castle's Triple Threat
24 Apr 2025
01:08:39
Our guest Louis Castle helped invent real-time strategy games with Command and Conquer and has a BAFTA for Boom Blox. Now leading Childlike Wonder Games, we discuss casino ethics, switching to real-time and building toys - this week!
Top 8 Highlights
[00:00:00] – Lifelong Learning: The Key to Game Design Success Louis Castle opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of constant learning as a game designer, citing curiosity and adaptability as essential traits.
[00:06:00] – Founding Westwood Studios & Creating the RTS Genre Louis reflects on co-founding Westwood Studios, the groundbreaking work on Command & Conquer, and helping define the real-time strategy genre.
[00:10:00] – Game Design vs. Casino Game Ethics He explains how game design in the casino industry is more ethically regulated than video games, raising concerns about manipulation in mainstream game design.
[00:17:00] – A True Multidisciplinary Game Maker Louis shares how he started as both an artist and programmer, contributing art, code, and design to early Westwood projects.
[00:27:00] – Westwood’s Mission: Make Complex Games Accessible From Eye of the Beholder to Dune II, Louis discusses how Westwood focused on turning deep mechanics into real-time, accessible gameplay.
[00:41:00] – Technical Wizardry: Building Custom Operating Systems Louis describes how he built custom OS-level tools and game engines to push hardware limits, including 60 FPS variable frame rate systems in the ‘80s.
[00:44:00] – Childlike Wonder Games: His New Studio & GenAI Vision He announces his new studio, Childlike Wonder Games, and its mission to create strategy games that let players use generative AI to customize gameplay.
[00:56:00] – The Wild Ride: Selling Westwood 4 Times Before EA Louis recounts how Westwood was acquired four times—eventually landing at EA—and how he handled all the financial and legal negotiations himself.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Tencent's Amir Satvat Flexes the Data Muscle for Good
17 Apr 2025
01:14:20
Our guest Amir Satvat wants to get you a job in games. A business development executive at Tencent, he won the Game Changer award for the incredible community he built which has helped over 3k gamedevs find their next role with mentorship, mock interviews and more. We discuss "the troubles" and hopes for the future - this week!
[00:00:00] The 17-Year Grind: Amir shares how it took nearly two decades—and hundreds of rejections—before landing his first job in games at age 38.
[00:14:00] The Job Engine Behind 3,300 Careers: Amir’s community has helped thousands land jobs in games. From mock interviews to portfolio reviews—this is how it all works.
[00:22:00] 2,300 Games and One Epic Spreadsheet: Amir has played over 2,300 games, tracking his thoughts on each one in a personal mega-spreadsheet since childhood.
[00:26:00] Inside Four Rooms of Game Collectibles: Amir owns every Amiibo, rare WOW minis, and a glowing Wind Waker statue—all spread across four dedicated rooms.
[00:27:00] Why the Game Industry is Shrinking (for Now): Layoffs, oversupply, and rising dev costs—Amir breaks down the real reasons behind the industry's contraction.
[00:34:00] The Great Talent Shift to Asia: Data shows jobs migrating away from California and toward Asia and Europe—Amir explains why it’s happening and what it means.
[00:42:00] Hope, Help, and Hugging at GDC: Amir reflects on the emotional impact of his work—stories of saved homes, career comebacks, and life-changing support.
[01:08:00] Has Gaming Growth Peaked? The crew unpacks whether the golden age of game industry expansion is slowing—and what’s next for developers and players alike.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Outer Wilds' Alex Beachum's Cool Weird Emotional Prototypes
10 Apr 2025
01:12:11
Our guest Alex Beachum turned his thesis project into the mind-bending smash Outer Wilds. Inspired by greats such as Zelda and Antichamber, it blazed new ground by having a nonviolent (though definitely mortal) player. We discuss emotional prototypes, four distinct mysteries and the IGF - this week!
Highlights
[00:00:30] Emotional Prototyping: Designing with Feeling Alex Beachum discusses the idea of building an emotional prototype for a game, capturing the vibe before mechanics—like roasting marshmallows as the sun explodes. This became the emotional core of Outer Wilds.
[00:17:30] The Origin of the Supernova Mechanic: The moment that inspired the iconic supernova loop in Outer Wilds—watching planets explode in slow motion—originated as a student prototype focused on ambiance and inevitability.
[00:09:00] Building a Space Game Without Combat: Alex wanted to make a space exploration game without combat, inspired by Apollo 13 and 2001: A Space Odyssey. The idea was pure exploration—“not to conquer, just to understand.”
[00:10:30] How ‘Outer Wilds’ Was Almost a Roguelike Originally envisioned as a roguelike with randomized elements, Outer Wilds shifted to a fixed solar system with a time loop to better serve its story and design goals.
[00:08:00] Zelda, Myst, and the Indie Inspirations Behind Outer Wilds: Beachum references Zelda, Myst, and Antichamber as key influences. The design philosophy emphasized knowledge as power, like discovering rules you could’ve used all along.
[00:53:00] The Ship Log: Making Mystery Manageable: Alex explains the design of the ship log, which breaks the story into four “curiosity webs” so players can uncover the mystery in any order. A masterclass in open-world narrative structure.
[00:39:00] From Stop Motion to Indie Stardom: Alex recounts how his childhood love of stop-motion and magic tricks evolved into a passion for visual storytelling and game design, eventually leading to Outer Wilds.
[00:42:30] Working with Family: Sibling Storytelling: Alex collaborated with his sister Kelsey Beachum, the writer of Outer Wilds, on the narrative. Their sibling dynamic added cohesion to the game’s emotional and story depth.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Maestro of Modding Sandi Montaño
03 Apr 2025
00:57:53
In this inspiring episode of The Fourth Curtain, we sit down with Sandi Montaño, a self-taught modding phenom who went from stay-at-home dad to one of the most downloaded indie creators in the gaming world. With over 31 million downloads of his content for games like ARK: Survival Ascended and Hogwarts Legacy, Sandi proves you don’t need a degree—or even a formal background in game development—to make a major impact.
If you’re a game developer, modder, or creative looking to break into the industry—this is a must-listen.
What started as a project to entertain his daughter has turned into a successful business. We discuss Blender, community needs and geometric growth this week!
[00:00:40] Modding During Nap Time Sandi shares how he taught himself game modding using textbooks during his daughter’s daily naps—no school, no YouTube, just pure grit.
[00:02:15] 31 Million Downloads & Counting Alex and Aaron react to the jaw-dropping number of downloads Sandi has achieved—and how it all started as a creative project with his daughter.
[00:10:00] How a Simple Structure Became a Business Sandi explains how he began creating ARK mods specifically for his daughter, which unexpectedly turned into a full-time business.
[00:17:45] Modding Hogwarts Legacy with SQL Sandi talks about stepping into Hogwarts Legacy modding and the unexpected challenge of learning SQL to build new features.
[00:24:40] How He Tests New Ideas (The Smart Way) Sandi walks through his efficient system of prototyping floor and wall structures, using community feedback to determine what becomes a premium mod.
[00:29:10] Modding for Relaxation—and Revenue Sandi reflects on how modding became both his creative outlet and a surprisingly profitable business, even allowing him to hire help.
[00:35:15] Explaining Your Job as a Modder He shares how surreal it was when his barber turned out to be a fan using his mods—and the tricky task of explaining his job to others.
[00:46:00] Advice for Aspiring Modders Sandi encourages anyone curious about modding to just get started—highlighting persistence, experimentation, and community feedback as key ingredients to success.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Exploding Kittens' Elan Lee Stacks the Deck
27 Mar 2025
01:12:28
Our guest is Exploding Kitten's Elan Lee. Starting with animating breath for the film Titanic, he went on to create the world's first alternate reality game, The Beast, at Microsoft. Later he gamified Nine Inch Nails and voter registration and went on to launch the most successful Kickstarter ever for Exploding Kittens, redefining family game night. This episode features great stories and a world exclusive product announcement - this week!
[00:06:30] From ILM to Xbox Elan shares his early work on Titanic and Star Wars, including hand-animating breath and neck seams for Jar Jar Binks—yes, really.
[00:18:30] The Xbox Origin Story Elan recounts joining Microsoft during the secretive beginnings of Xbox and working with gaming legend Jordan Weisman on the launch lineup.
[00:30:45] Creating the First ARG with Spielberg How AI: Artificial Intelligence inspired Elan to pioneer alternate reality games, turning storytelling into an interactive experience.
[00:35:00] Nine Inch Nails and “The Game That Calls You” Partnering with Trent Reznor, Elan built an ARG that included thermochromic CD ink, cryptic websites, and secret concerts.
[00:41:30] The Clothing Line That Taught U.S. History A secret-encoded T-shirt line that secretly retold the story of the American Revolution—gamified fashion meets education.
[00:49:00] Why Exploding Kittens Happened After stepping away from screens, Elan turned to physical games and launched Exploding Kittens, which raised $9 million on Kickstarter.
[00:54:45] Inside the Chaos of Fulfilling 700,000 Orders How Elan went from a 200-copy side project to full-scale game production, leaning on friends (and Cards Against Humanity) to survive.
[01:01:30] Teasing the New Exploding Kittens Board Game Elan reveals an exclusive about a brand-new 3D board game version of Exploding Kittens coming soon—with a mechanic that took two years to perfect.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Journey's Jenova Chen and the Art of the Positive Game
20 Mar 2025
01:16:39
This week's guest is Jenova Chen, creator of Journey, Sky: Children of the Light and other games. A BAFTA winner, he has strong opinions about morality in games and the value of positivity. We discuss the unique way he starts games, GDC's value and being the opposite of GTA - this week!
[00:00:00] Music as the Highest Resolution Emotional Medium Jenova Chen explains why he believes music is the most powerful emotional communication tool, comparing it to pixel art and poetry.
[00:08:00] The Journey of thatgamecompany & Raising $160M Jenova shares how Thatgamecompany evolved from a student project to a studio that raised $160 million in venture capital.
[00:14:00] Growing Up in Shanghai & Discovering Gaming Jenova reflects on his childhood in China, his parents' skepticism of video games, and how he discovered his passion for interactive media.
[00:28:00] Pitching a Game at USC & The Origins of thatgamecompany Jenova recalls how he pitched a student game to secure funding, which eventually led to the founding of thatgamecompany.
[00:32:00] Creating Games as Art & The Success of Cloud The unexpected viral success of Cloud and how it convinced Jenova that video games could be a respected artistic medium.
[00:41:00] How Jenova Chen Designs Games: Starting with Emotion Jenova describes his creative process, starting with imagery and music to establish the emotional tone before designing mechanics.
[00:51:00] Comedy & Romance in Games: A Missed Opportunity Jenova discusses how certain film genres—like romantic comedies—are underrepresented in gaming and how they could become successful.
[00:58:00] Designing the Emotional Journey in Journey How Journey’s climactic moment was carefully crafted by contrasting moments of struggle with a powerful sense of freedom.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Alex Irvine's Storytelling Secrets from Marvel Rivals and Beyond!
13 Mar 2025
01:10:52
Dive into the compelling world of storytelling with acclaimed author Alex Irvine, known for his immersive contributions to Marvel games, graphic novels, and groundbreaking Alternate Reality Games (ARGs) like I Love Bees. In this episode, Alex shares his insights on creativity, the delicate balance between talent, persistence, and luck, and the intricate art of narrative design across various media formats. From discussing the unique challenges of writing for expansive universes like Marvel's multiverse to recalling his first forays into writing, Alex reveals the true secret ingredient to success. Packed with engaging anecdotes and wisdom, this conversation will captivate aspiring creators, gamers, and narrative enthusiasts alike.
Episode Highlights:
[00:00] Alex Irvine shares essential advice on becoming a successful writer: "Talent, persistence, luck—pick two."
[09:00] Discussing how storytelling integrates with gameplay mechanics, using Marvel Rivals as a case study.
[13:00] Behind-the-scenes insight into early Marvel game universe-building attempts, and how ambitious projects like a Marvel gaming universe unfold.
[14:00] Crafting "time-stream entanglement" as a narrative device for multiverse stories in Marvel Rivals.
[22:00] Childhood inspiration from playing Dungeons & Dragons, storytelling roots, and writing early poetry.
[35:00] Persistence in publishing his first novel, A Scattering of Jades, after years of setbacks.
[45:00] The exhilarating chaos of writing ARG puzzles and player reactions for I Love Bees.
[56:00] Alex reflects on the collaborative process of writing comics and the delicate balance between writer and artist.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Hope for the Future with Halo's Joe Staten
06 Mar 2025
01:22:53
This week's guest is Halo and Destiny's Joe Staten. Beginning as a farmhand, he went on to lead teams in the Halo franchise, be on the core team for Destiny, write a NYT bestselling novel and work with the great Peter Jackson. Now looking for his next role, we discuss how Bungie was like a family business, the most important mysteries and creativity and risk - this week!
Episode Highlights – Joseph Staten on The Fourth Curtain Podcast
🎙️ Guest: Joseph Staten – Writer, Cinematics Director, Creative Director, NYT Bestselling Author, Voice Actor, and former Halo/Destiny dev.
07:50 – Introduction – Alex and Aaron welcome Joseph Staten and reminisce about their early days working together. 09:05 – Joseph’s Bungie Origins – How Alex took a chance on Joe and changed his career trajectory. 10:45 – From Theater to Game Development – Joe’s academic path from Northwestern University and how it shaped his approach to storytelling. 14:15 – Wine, Farm Work, and Video Games – How working at a family vineyard led to playing Myth and ultimately a job interview at Bungie. 15:22 – The Wild Flight to Bungie – Joe’s harrowing experience on ATA Airlines en route to his Bungie interview. 18:36 – Lessons from a Non-Traditional Career Path – Why diverse backgrounds create stronger game developers. 21:30 – The Importance of Curiosity and Hustle – How a self-starter mindset helped Joe navigate the game industry. 28:34 – The Journey to Creative Director – How Joe transitioned from Bungie’s publishing team to leading game development. 33:24 – Hard Lessons in Leadership – Learning to communicate effectively and navigate failure as a team leader. 37:58 – Building Trust in Game Development – Why trust is the foundation of every successful project. 40:06 – Playing Halo as a Fan – Joe’s experience playing Halo games he didn’t work on, starting with Halo: Reach. 46:03 – ODST’s Development Challenges – How Joe and Paul Bertone led a small team to ship Halo 3: ODST under intense constraints. 50:40 – Difficult Decisions in Game Development – The toughest calls made during ODST and Halo Infinite. 52:30 – The Scale of Halo Infinite – Managing 800+ developers and the challenges of finishing a large-scale game. 56:22 – Why Aren’t There More Marines? – A small but impactful design decision in Halo Infinite. 58:26 – The Future of AAA Games – Joe’s thoughts on the shifting industry landscape and what’s next for game dev. 1:05:19 – Iteration is Key to Success – Why persistence and iteration define the best games. 1:06:41 – Writing Halo: Contact Harvest – The experience of writing a New York Times bestseller while developing Halo 3.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Games Workshop's Ian Livingstone, Fantasy Knight in Real Life
27 Feb 2025
01:26:44
This week's guest is a founder of Games Workshop, publisher of White Dwarf magazine, creator of the Fighting Fantasy Books and Executive Chair of Eidos Interactive Sir Ian Livingstone. This Knight of the British Empire started a business while living in a van, prevailed through a Satanic panic about his Fighting books, saw the promise of a certain Tomb Raider and birthed a mass media entertainment phenomenon. Now using games for education, we talk getting bonkers exclusives, the 3 G's of gamedev and more - this week!
🎙️ The Fourth Curtain – S3 Ep01: Sir Ian Livingstone 🎲
[00:00:00] – Living in a Van to Build a Games Empire 🚐
Ian shares how he and his co-founder lived in a van outside a squash club while starting Games Workshop.
[00:08:00] – GenCon, Early Game Distribution & Meeting Gygax 🎲
Traveling to GenCon, discovering Dungeons & Dragons, and securing the European distribution rights for TSR.
[00:18:00] – Building Games Workshop & Warhammer’s Rise 🏰
The journey from selling board games to launching Warhammer and revolutionizing tabletop gaming.
[00:26:00] – Fighting Fantasy & Interactive Storytelling 📖
How Fighting Fantasy books became a global phenomenon and pioneered branching narratives in gaming.
[00:38:00] – Eidos & The Birth of Tomb Raider 🎮
The story behind discovering Tomb Raider during due diligence and its meteoric rise in gaming and pop culture.
[00:49:00] – The Business of Games & Investing in Innovation 💰
Ian’s philosophy on game design, the importance of IP ownership, and why gameplay always comes first.
[01:04:00] – Where the Games Industry is Heading 🚀
Thoughts on the evolution of games, emerging technologies, and the future of innovation in gaming.
[01:11:00] – Closing Thoughts & A Look Ahead 🔮
Ian shares insights on the importance of creativity, the future of interactive media, and what’s next for him.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Best of 2024
20 Feb 2025
01:44:49
In this week's episode we recap some of the best moments from Season 2, with John Romero on hits and misses, how Peter Molyneux makes a game, Ed Fries on Xbox's Valentines Day massacre, Warren Spector on how playstyle is everything and much more!
🎮 The Fourth Curtain – S2 Best Of Highlights
[00:00:00] – Season 2 Recap & Patreon Launch 🎉
Alex and Aaron reflect on Season 2, announce the new Patreon, and tease upcoming guests.
[00:08:00] – John Romero’s First Game 👾
John shares how he programmed his first game on a mainframe in 1979 and discovered Colossal Cave Adventure.
[00:26:00] – Mike Wilson & The Wild West of Publishing 🤠
Mike tells stories from GT Interactive, including publishing DOOM and the infamous Fabio Screensaver.
[00:38:00] – Game Delays & Business Realities ⏳
Industry veterans discuss the tough decisions behind delaying games and the shift from retail to digital.
[00:49:00] – Mitch Lasky on Venture Capital & Gaming 💰
Mitch talks about investing in Instagram, Twitter, Uber, Snapchat, Riot Games, and Discord.
[01:04:00] – The Xbox Origin Story – The Valentine's Day Massacre 🎮
Ed Fries recounts the high-stakes meeting where Microsoft approved the original Xbox.
[01:27:00] – Jesse Schell Predicts AI in Games 🤖
Jesse discusses AI-driven NPCs, procedural storytelling, and the future of interactive experiences.
[01:32:00] – AI’s Impact on Game Development & Publishing ⚙️
Frank Gibeau and others explore AI’s role in monetization, engagement, and player behavior.
[01:43:00] – Season 3 Tease & Farewell 🎭
A sneak peek at upcoming guests, including Sir Ian Livingstone, and an invitation to join the Patreon.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Ghost of Yotei's Mud Blood and Steel, with Sucker Punch
02 Oct 2025
01:16:05
It's a one-two move with Sucker Punch's Chris Zimmerman and Brian Fleming. Now shipping Ghost of Yotei, they tell us about leaving Microsoft for Sony and becoming a gamedev powerhouse. Tales of exact pitches and being great instead of good - this week!
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Intro: Chris Zimmerman & Brian Fleming of Sucker Punch Productions An introduction to Chris and Brian, co-founders of Sucker Punch Productions (Sly Cooper, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima).
[00:08:23] “Name it Anything But Sucker Punch” Brian and Chris talk about the founding of Sucker Punch and how the studio got its name.
[00:14:06] Early Days at Microsoft Brian and Chris reminisce on learning how to run a business, trial and error, and early days at Microsoft.
[00:21:04] Growing Up in the “Right” Place Brian and Chris trade stories of growing up and working in tech in the early 90s.
[00:27:54] Leaving Microsoft and Starting Sucker Punch Chris and Brian talk about leaving Microsoft, building a team from scratch, making their first games, and landing a deal with Ubisoft.
[00:37:17] The Silver Lining After a release riddled with mistakes, the team lands a first party deal for their next game series, Sly Cooper.
[00:47:28] Was Sony the Right Choice? Chris and Brian discuss the advantage of having a stable, long-term relationship with your publisher and building trust.
[00:51:19] How Ghost of Tsushima Started From an alpha that never got approval, to developing one of the fastest-selling first-party PlayStation titles and a BAFTA-winning game.
[01:01:50] The Studio Now vs. Then and COVID’s Impact Releasing 3 months into the COVID-19 pandemic, Chris and Brian review how they adjusted their plans and how the studio has evolved over time.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Ed Boon Gets into the Nitty-Gritty Metal
24 Oct 2024
01:11:16
Welcome to the Season Two finale episode! And it's a Monster!!!! (Never fear, we will be back in a couple of weeks with some special episodes to bridge the gap to Season Three!)
This week's guest is Ed Boon, co-creator of Mortal Kombat and Injustice and Chief Creative Officer of Mortal Kombat and NetherRealm Studios! Starting in the world of pinball, he moved onto arcade games at the legendary Midway Games and is still making blockbusters. We discuss his World Record entry in the book of Guinness, the cultural impact of MK and the key question he asks at the start of every project, this week!
Highlights!
06:15 – 06:53 Alex introduces Ed Boon as the longest-serving video game voice actor and co-creator of Mortal Kombat, discussing his legacy in the gaming world.
08:55 – 10:01 Aaron shares a story about a rumor regarding Mortal Kombat being chosen over Judge Dredd for arcade cabinet production. Ed clarifies the details and dispels the myth.
11:00 – 11:41 Ed Boon reflects on the early days of making games, the small team behind Mortal Kombat, and the excitement of seeing it come together.
14:41 – 15:29 Ed discusses Mortal Kombat's early impact on the gaming industry and the role of digitized characters, mentioning how it was one of the first games to popularize the technology in arcades.
25:31 – 26:39 Ed describes the transition from Williams Electronics to Midway and later NetherRealm Studios, reflecting on the various "chapters" of his career in video game development.
28:33 – 29:42 Ed talks about the support Warner Brothers gave to Mortal Kombat 9, including extending the development timeline, which allowed it to become one of the biggest-selling games in the franchise.
39:34 – 41:40 Ed explains how the home version of Mortal Kombat and other controversial games like Doom and Night Trap drew attention, eventually leading to the creation of the ESRB ratings system.
45:05 – 46:00 Ed shares a memorable moment seeing 17 Mortal Kombat 2 arcade machines lined up at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, which made him realize the game's massive popularity.
47:39 – 47:54 Ed recounts how he became a member of the Screen Actors Guild to voice Scorpion’s famous line, "Get over here!" for the Mortal Kombat movie, still receiving royalty checks to this day.
48:18 – 49:33 Ed describes the approach to developing new Mortal Kombat games, focusing on how to add new features and experiences to keep each version fresh for players.
01:01:32 – 01:03:37 Ed praises the successes of other Warner Bros. studios like Rocksteady with Arkham and Avalanche with Hogwarts Legacy, reflecting on the camaraderie and collaboration within the Warner gaming family.
01:05:46 – 01:06:56 Ed describes his visit to the set of the Mortal Kombat movie, sharing the surreal experience of seeing characters like Goro come to life in live action.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
From Pong to Deconstructor: Mishka Katkoff’s Global Gaming Journey
17 Oct 2024
01:11:59
Ok, we know this episode should be called Something Fun on the Toilet with MK, but we're chose to keep it classy. Our guest this week is Michail Katkoff, a veteran of Zynga, Supercell, and Rovio, partner in Play Ventures, and founder of Deconstructor of Fun. In all of these different roles he's developed a unique understanding of our industry from different perspectives. We discuss product management, insane mobile profits and the ecosystem necessary to support game studios.
00:00 – Introduction: Alex and Aaron introduce Mishka, highlighting his diverse roles in the gaming industry. 02:00 – First Steps: Mishka talks about his first role in the industry at Digital Chocolate and his encounters with Trip Hawkins. 05:45 – Cultural Differences in Gaming: Mishka reflects on the differences between the Finnish and Californian working cultures. 08:30 – Early Influences: Growing up in the Soviet Union, Mishka shares how Pong and Sega sparked his passion for gaming. 10:50 – From Business to Games: Mishka recounts how he left the corporate world to pursue his dream in the gaming industry. 14:00 – Product Management Explained: Mishka breaks down the role of a Product Manager in gaming and how he helped shape game monetization. 16:30 – Crazy Discoveries in Player Data: Mishka reveals insights from analyzing player behavior and the surprising findings about in-game sales. 22:00 – Ethics in Monetization: A candid conversation about the moral questions surrounding microtransactions and the 'whale' phenomenon. 29:00 – Building the Finnish Gaming Scene: Mishka explains how Nokia and the Finnish education system helped create a gaming ecosystem. 36:00 – Challenges for Indie Developers: Discussion on the current challenges small studios face in breaking into the mobile gaming market. 40:30 – Favorite Games: Mishka shares his love for grand strategy and historical games, and his mobile game preferences. 45:00 – Deconstructor of Fun: How Mishka started Deconstructor of Fun and grew it into a leading platform for industry insights. 50:00 – Launching a Studio: Mishka talks about starting a game studio and its eventual acquisition by Sony.
This episode is perfect for anyone interested in the gaming industry, product management, or how mobile gaming has evolved over the years!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Things Blow Up with Mike Pondsmith
10 Oct 2024
01:27:41
In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, legendary game designer Mike Pondsmith joins hosts Alex and Aaron for an in-depth conversation about his expansive career, from creating the tabletop RPG Cyberpunk to collaborating with CD Projekt Red on Cyberpunk 2077. Mike discusses his early days in game development, the creation of Night City, and the challenges of translating tabletop concepts into video games. The episode is full of humor, industry insights, and engaging anecdotes, offering listeners a rare look into the mind of a creator who has shaped both pen-and-paper and digital gaming worlds.
Time-Stamped Highlights
[05:00:23] – Introduction of Mike Pondsmith, founder of R. Talsorian Games and creator of Cyberpunk.
[05:01:15] – Mike talks about his early work on Crimson Skies, MechCommander, and Blood Wake.
[00:02:19] – Discussion on the challenges of developing Crimson Skies and insights into game development at the time.
[05:03:57] – Mike shares his surprise at how organized CD Projekt Red was during the development of Witcher 3and Cyberpunk 2077.
[09:17:98] – Mike Pondsmith talks about inventing Cyberpunk and how it grew into a genre-defining game.
[10:04:69] – The origins of CD Projekt Red’s relationship with Cyberpunk, including a fun anecdote about selling the first copies of Cyberpunk in Poland.
[11:49:84] – Mike’s involvement in helping the CD Projekt team stay true to the Cyberpunk universe and why flying cars were initially excluded from Cyberpunk 2077.
[12:52:40] – Discussion on the differences between Cyberpunk and Blade Runner and how Night City was built with a unique vision.
[14:53:02] – Mike recalls his son’s involvement in game design and how the family has collaborated on creative projects like Shadow Scar.
[16:42:91] – The renaissance of tabletop games and the challenges with distribution in the modern market.
[22:35:15] – Mike shares a humorous story about playing D&D with a “lady of the night” as a cleric in one of his first tabletop games.
[28:50:00] – Mike explains his philosophy on world-building and how Cyberpunk was designed to allow players to fully engage with a violent, dystopian world.
[37:05:86] – Mike describes how tabletop game design provides a skeleton framework that translates well into video game development.
[49:51:27] – Mike reveals that Night City was inspired by Disneyland, with different areas modeled after distinct thematic zones.
[54:49:35] – The story behind designing the corporate logos in Cyberpunk and the longevity of some of his designs, including Arasaka.
[62:09:65] – The unexpected naming of R. Talsorian Games and the humorous origin behind the company name.
This episode provides a fascinating journey through the mind of one of the most influential figures in both tabletop and video games, packed with engaging insights and personal stories.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Business Romance of Mihai Pohontu
03 Oct 2024
01:25:08
This week on The Fourth Curtain, we’re joined by Mihai Pohontu, CEO and Chairman of Amber Studio, a distinguished figure in the gaming industry. Mihai, who was recently named Romanian Entrepreneur of the Year, shares his fascinating journey from the upheaval of post-revolution Romania to becoming a leader in global game development. A self-described businessromantic, Mihai offers insightful perspectives on the role of capitalism and entrepreneurship in shaping a better society.
Amber Studio, a valued partner to this podcast, has provided critical development services across the industry, including work on popular titles like Stumble Guys. In this episode, we dive into Mihai’s unique path into gaming through quality assurance, the philosophy behind game testing, and Amber Studio's approach to talent development in emerging markets. We also explore the industry’s challenges and opportunities in training the next generation of game developers and how Amber is actively contributing to this effort. Join us for an in-depth conversation about the future of game development, business philosophy, and the personal experiences that shaped Mihai’s career.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:01:00] – The Value of Game Testing: Mihai discusses how starting as a tester provides invaluable insights into how software grows and evolves, highlighting the benefits for aspiring game developers.
[00:05:00] – Amber Studio and the Global Game Development Ecosystem: Mihai shares the journey of Amber Studio, including its partnership with major studios and contributions to games like Stumble Guys.
[00:09:00] – Business Romantic Philosophy: Mihai introduces his idea of "business romanticism," where capitalism is seen as a transformative force for good, beyond shareholder value.
[00:12:00] – Bridging the Junior to Senior Talent Gap: Discussion on the challenges of transitioning junior developers to senior roles and the initiatives Amber Studio has implemented to train and support emerging talent in Romania and Mexico.
[00:19:00] – Amber Studio's Growth: Mihai details the expansion of Amber Studio into multiple countries, the diversity of platforms they work on, and the unique challenges of managing such a large team across different regions.
[00:24:00] – Mihai’s Upbringing in Revolutionary Romania: He reflects on growing up in Bucharest during a time of political and economic upheaval, which shaped his relationship with video games as an escape.
[00:32:00] – Early Career at Activision: Mihai recounts his early experiences working as a QA tester for games like Civilization Call to Power and Medieval: Total War at Activision.
[00:46:00] – The Formation of EA Romania: Mihai explains how he built EA’s Romanian branch from the ground up, hiring and managing a team that helped transform the European mobile gaming market.
[00:51:00] – Challenges in the Current Game Industry: Mihai shares his thoughts on how the industry has treated external development teams during difficult financial times and calls for more ethical business practices.
[01:04:00] – Training Good Managers: Mihai emphasizes the importance of management skills in the gaming industry and how to develop effective managers by teaching them through hands-on experience.
[01:07:00] – Amber's Approach to Teamwork: Mihai discusses Amber Studio’s focus on peer-to-peer learning, mentorship, and the importance of in-office collaboration to foster a thriving creative community.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Warren Spector Gets the Keys to the Kingdom
26 Sep 2024
01:29:23
Our guest Warren Spector is the creative producer behind vastly influential games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Deus Ex and many others. Now working on (working title) Argos, he joins us to talk about the birth of the immersive sim, having amazing mentors and ways to start a game, this week!
The conversation dives deep into Warren's career, discussing his design philosophy around player agency and choice, the history behind some of the most influential immersive sim games, and his experiences working at companies like Origin Systems, Ion Storm, and Disney. Warren shares behind-the-scenes stories about the development of Deus Ex, his transition from tabletop gaming to video games, and his collaborations with industry legends like Doug Church and John Romero. The episode also touches on Warren’s current work with OtherSide Entertainment and his ambitious, upcoming project, Argos.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:01:00] Warren discusses his design philosophy: player choice and agency.
[00:02:30] Alex recalls working with Warren at Junction Point on Epic Mickey.
[00:03:50] Aaron shares a humorous story about flubbing an interview with Warren during his early career.
[00:10:00] Warren talks about his early work with TSR and Steve Jackson Games in the tabletop space.
[00:12:00] Working on System Shock and the role of Looking Glass Studios.
[00:18:00] Warren’s transition from tabletop to video games and his early days at Origin Systems.
[00:20:00] The creative process behind Deus Ex and Warren’s work with Ion Storm.
[00:24:00] Story of how John Romero offered Warren creative freedom at Ion Storm to make Deus Ex.
[00:31:00] Warren shares his love for board games and his extensive library of books and car magazines.
[00:39:00] Growing up in New York and his passion for film, leading to his career shift.
[00:46:00] Warren’s first exposure to Dungeons & Dragons in 1978, which profoundly influenced his game design philosophy.
[00:53:00] His critique of games that lack meaningful player choice and why he strives to offer alternative solutions in his games.
[01:00:00] A sneak peek into his new project at OtherSide Entertainment, Argos, though much remains under wraps.
[01:05:00] Discussion about working with Disney and the creative challenges of designing Epic Mickey.
[01:09:00] Alex and Warren reflect on their experiences working within Disney and the corporate dynamics.
This episode is packed with gems on game design, industry insights, and entertaining stories from one of gaming's most celebrated designers.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Ed Fries Races The Beam
19 Sep 2024
01:33:43
In this episode of The Fourth Curtain, Alex and Aaron sit down with Ed Fries, a pivotal figure in the gaming industry and former VP at Microsoft, where he helped launch the Xbox. Ed shares stories from his early days at Microsoft, including how he made the leap from working on Office products to heading up the game division. He dives into the creation of the original Xbox, the challenges the team faced, and the infamous "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting where Xbox's future hung in the balance.
Ed also talks about his passion for game development, stretching back to his teenage years programming for Atari, and his ongoing support for indie game developers through his venture fund, 1UP Ventures. Throughout the conversation, Ed’s storytelling shines as he reflects on the impact of the Xbox, Halo, and his own entrepreneurial journey in the gaming world.
For listeners interested in the deeper technical side of gaming history, we recommend reading Racing the Beam, a book that explores the development of the Atari 2600, the platform that first captured Ed’s imagination as a developer.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:01:00] – Alex and Aaron introduce Ed Fries and reminisce about the early Xbox days.
[00:07:00] – Ed shares his background in game programming for the Atari 800.
[00:13:00] – The origin of the first-ever screensaver, developed by Ed at Microsoft.
[00:23:00] – Ed's thoughts on the evolving game industry and his passion for supporting indie developers.
[00:29:00] – How Ed transitioned from the Office team to leading Microsoft’s game division.
[00:34:00] – Behind the scenes of the Xbox’s early development, including the "Valentine’s Day Massacre" meeting with Bill Gates.
[00:45:00] – The crucial role Halo played in the success of the Xbox launch.
[01:00:00] – Reflections on the challenges Microsoft faced with hardware and pricing during the Xbox’s lifecycle.
[01:05:00] – Ed’s post-Microsoft career, including Halo 2600 and the founding of 1UP Ventures.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Frank Gibeau's Silver Bullets for Game Development
12 Sep 2024
01:13:38
Join Alex Seropian (founder of Bungie) and Aaron Marroquin as they dive into the incredible minds behind the video game industry in The Fourth Curtain. In this episode, they chat with Frank Gibeau, the CEO of Zynga, who takes listeners on a journey through one of the most legendary corporate turnarounds in gaming history. From his early days at EA to leading Zynga through a $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two, Frank shares valuable insights into leadership, strategy, and the ever-evolving world of mobile gaming.
Episode Highlights:
[00:00:00] Frank humorously reflects on Zynga’s rough early days, where the company was generating nearly $700 million, but only $12 million in profit. He explains how the team turned things around, transforming it into a mobile gaming powerhouse.
[00:01:00] The hosts discuss Zynga’s historic $12.7 billion acquisition by Take-Two Interactive. Frank shares an amusing anecdote about how this deal briefly held the title of the largest video game deal—until Microsoft acquired Activision shortly after.
[00:05:00] Frank recounts his journey from EA to Zynga, emphasizing the cultural shift he implemented and the tough leadership decisions needed to improve the company’s operations.
[00:12:00] A deep dive into the creative struggles behind iconic games like The Sims and how collaboration with game developers drove EA’s early success.
[00:32:00] Frank and Alex reflect on the challenges of navigating a public company’s pressures, making tough calls on game launches, and the importance of putting quality ahead of short-term financial goals.
[00:43:00] Frank reveals how he was initially recruited to Zynga and how he used Words With Friends' chat feature to bring in top talent like Bernard Kim.
[00:50:00] The episode wraps with Frank discussing Zynga’s strategy of acquiring studios to build “forever franchises,” sharing key lessons learned from EA’s acquisitions and how Zynga avoided those pitfalls.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the business side of gaming, leadership, and the evolution of mobile games.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Jordan Weisman Makes Stuff Up
05 Sep 2024
01:18:02
Our guest this week is the legend Jordan Weisman. Creator of BattleTech, Crimson Skies and the world's first alternate reality game, he's now working on Adventure Forge, a platform to help non-engineers make videogames. We talk buying D&D from Gary Gygax, at Gary's house!, the secret to entrepreneurship and creating the "Bungie bubble" this week!
[00:07:00] Interview Introduction: Jordan Weisman’s Career Highlights Alex introduces Jordan Weisman’s career and his influential work in gaming and alternate reality games (ARGs).
[00:10:00] The Origins of WizKids and Collectible Miniatures Jordan talks about founding WizKids and the success of HeroClix.
[00:15:00] Early Gaming Experiences and Inspiration for Shadowrun Jordan discusses how his early exposure to Mesoamerican culture and tabletop games influenced the creation of Shadowrun.
[00:26:00] Adventure Forge: A Platform for Game Creation Jordan introduces Adventure Forge, a platform for user-generated content (UGC) in video games.
[00:34:00] The Rise of MechWarrior and Working with Activision Discussion about the development of MechWarrior 2 and the challenges faced with Activision.
[00:44:00] Disney, Star Wars, and Interactive Experiences Jordan talks about his work on interactive systems for Disney, including the development of a system that allows actors to recognize guests.
[00:59:00] Alternate Reality Games and Storytelling Jordan explains his ideas for alternate reality games (ARGs) and the concept of discovery-based storytelling.
[01:08:00] The Making of "I Love Bees" and Pitching to Spielberg Jordan recounts how the ARG I Love Bees came to life and his meetings with Steven Spielberg and Kathleen Kennedy.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Harvey Smith Knows the Secret to Magical Games
29 Aug 2024
01:28:27
Our guest this week is the co-creative director of Arkane Studios, Harvey Smith. Starting out in QA for System Shock and other games, he went on to be lead designer for Deus Ex and ultimately made Dishonored at Arkane. We talk meeting your heroes, recombining systems and the secret to making a magical game this week!
[00:00:00] - Harvey Smith discusses his first encounter with a game that sparked his passion, System Shock, comparing it to seeing one's first love in a movie.
[00:45:00] - Harvey recounts his experience with Ultima 8, explaining how he created a list of 100 ways the game could have been improved and how he was eventually given a team to fix these issues.
[01:05:00] - Harvey shares the development of Deus Ex, discussing how the team decided to extend the development period by six months after realizing the game could be significantly improved.
[01:13:00] - Harvey emphasizes the importance of having additional time for game development, citing examples like Deus Ex and Dishonored, where extra time made a substantial difference in quality.
[01:17:00] - Harvey and Alex discuss the challenges and rewards of working in the game industry, touching on topics like QA work, the grind of production, and the passion required to succeed.
[01:25:00] - The episode wraps up with thanks to the listeners, information about the production team, and a call to action to visit the podcast's website and follow on various platforms.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Behind the Headlines: Dean Takahashi’s Journey Through Gaming’s Biggest Stories
22 Aug 2024
01:02:10
In this exciting episode of The Fourth Curtain, hosts Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin dive deep into the world of gaming journalism with none other than Dean Takahashi, the lead writer of GamesBeat at VentureBeat. With over three decades of experience covering tech and gaming, Dean shares his unique insights on the evolving landscape of the gaming industry, the challenges of maintaining journalistic integrity in the age of AI, and the stories that have shaped his career.
Timestamped Highlights:
[00:00:00] - Introduction and Dean’s Perspective on AI in Journalism Dean discusses the importance of unique perspectives in journalism, especially in an era where AI-generated content is becoming more prevalent.
[00:12:00] - The Art of Juggling Multiple Stories Dean explains how he manages to publish over ten stories a day, offering a peek into the meticulous planning and execution that goes into his work.
[00:18:00] - Dean’s Early Gaming Experiences and Journalism Journey A nostalgic look at Dean’s introduction to video games, from playing Pong in Las Vegas to his first console, Intellivision, and his journey to becoming a prominent gaming journalist.
[00:27:00] - The Ethics of Game Journalism and Insider Information The hosts explore the ethical considerations of covering the gaming industry, from handling embargoed information to maintaining neutrality.
[00:43:00] - The Future of Gaming: Blockchain, Web3, and Beyond Dean shares his thoughts on the future of gaming, including the potential of blockchain and Web3 technologies in revolutionizing the industry.
[00:51:00] - Challenges and Hopes for the Gaming Industry’s Future A discussion on the impact of unionization, open platforms, and the importance of accessibility in the gaming industry.
Tune in to hear Dean’s incredible stories and his predictions for the future of gaming. Whether you’re a seasoned industry veteran or a casual gamer, this episode offers valuable insights into the dynamic world of video games.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Origin Stories of Elder Scrolls' Paul Sage
04 Sep 2025
01:13:54
We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week!
This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.
Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage
[00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the Name Paul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation.
[00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit? A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive.
[00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a Pandemic Paul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense.
[00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with Games From playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online.
[00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the Industry Thanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team
[00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time Low Paul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team.
[00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining Confidence After leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games.
[01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken Industry Paul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Rod Fergusson Shakes The Jello
15 Aug 2024
01:20:26
This week's guest is a well-known "closer" who has steered the ship for some of the biggest games ever. Beginning with Train Simulator, he went on to serve as Producer for Counter-Strike Xbox, Gears of War, Infinity Blade, BioShock Infinite. Now helming Diablo at Blizzard, he talks triage, teamwork and not shaking the jello - this week!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Inside CD Projekt RED: Michal Nowakowski on The Witcher, Cyberpunk, and Gaming's Future
08 Aug 2024
01:17:04
Our guest this week is Michal Nowakowski the co-CEO of CD Projekt Red, the renowned studio behind iconic games like The Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077.
With nearly two decades at CD Projekt, Michal shares his journey from the early days of video game distribution in Poland to leading one of the world's most celebrated game development companies.
Beginning as a game distributor, CD Projekt went on to develop The Witcher, which sold a whopping 75 million units! Michal discusses the company's strategic decisions, such as developing the next Cyberpunk game in the US to capture an authentic American feel, and their ambition to create impactful, meaningful experiences for fans worldwide.
We talk Gwent, the funnest way to learn English and the "number one" way to get a job, this week!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Brian Reynolds Surrounds the Fun Part 2
01 Aug 2024
01:21:31
Our conversation with the gamedev legend Brian Reynolds continues as we dive into the true meaning of 4X, the Train Reynolds business model, NPC insults and the research secrets of this podcast - this week!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Brian Reynolds Surrounds the Fun Part 1
25 Jul 2024
01:24:28
Our guest Brian Reynolds has a story so nice we had to hear it twice! In Part 1 we hear about coding at Radioshack, mentorship with Sid Meier and making Civilization 2 basically by himself. A great conversation with a legend to resume Season 2 of The Fourth Curtain!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
From Gamer to Creator with Uri Marchand
04 Jul 2024
01:14:01
Co-founder and CEO of Overwolf, Uri Marchand has been building _THE_ UGC platform for over fourteen years and Overwolf has paid more than $200 million to mod-makers going deep on games from Minecraft to Stardew Valley! A hardcore Real Time Strategy player, Uri's company now supports all types of games including Ark and The Sims. We talk the funnel from gamer to creator, the best books on business, and surviving and thriving over the long haul.
Some of the books on Uri's Reading list: Nonviolent Communication. By Marshall Rosenberg Good To Great, Built To Last, Great By Choic. By, Jim Collins Traction. By Gino Wickman Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Four Obsessions of an Extraordinary Executive. By Patrick Clancione
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
Mark DeLoura Leverages Games for More
27 Jun 2024
01:21:09
Our guest Mark DeLoura has had a stunningly wide-ranging career: game developer and executive for Nintendo, Sony and THQ, Editor in Chief of Game Developer magazine, Senior Advisor for Digital Media in the White House, author of Programming Gems book series, built hardware and software for NASA and served on the Board at Games for Change. This week he joins us to talk about building entertainment and games as a language to serve a greater good!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Action Arcade Strategy of Shannon Loftis
20 Jun 2024
01:16:07
For a second time we are graced with the presence of videogame legend Shannon Loftis! Veteran of running Flight Simulator and Age of Empires at Microsoft, she was instrumental in the acquisition of Rare for Xbox game Studios. Now an advisor to Duke University's videogame program she joins us to talk franchises, Animal Well and the great Profanisaurus!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Definition of Indie with Schmid and Kho
13 Jun 2024
00:39:50
Our guests this week are creators of the visually-striking games Cocoon, Limbo and Inside. Jakob Scmid is co-founder of Geometric Interactive and Erwin Kho is the artist guiding a couple of those projects. We talk about readable environments, demo scenes and more this week!
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
The Conference
06 Jun 2024
00:56:50
This past March, 30,000 people went to San Francisco for the annual Game Developers Conference. Going since 1988, GDC, brings together people from all corners of the game development community. The Fourth Curtain followed four different journeys intersecting this conference.
The First Timer: Aaron has never gone to GDC and it terrified him. The Seasoned Pro: Patrick Curry, game studio founder on how he grew up at the conference and how it changed him. The Founder: Chris Crawford on why he started the conference and how it ultimately drove him from the industry. The Indie: Geometric Interactive, their award nominated game Cocoon goes to GDC and they come back with something better than trophies.
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505
How To Start A Game Studio
30 May 2024
00:57:38
In this inaugural Lunch Club episode of The Fourth Curtain we discuss starting a Game Studio, something Alex has done a few times. We fail to actually eat lunch, but we do talk about the following topics:
1) Why? Why do you want to start one? What are good reason to do so and what’s a game studio really?
2) Strategies. If you are starting a studio, does it have a strategy? Platform, genre, technology, IP? What’s the “sum is greater than its parts” part?
3) Funding. How to get off the ground
4) Needs. Team, Legal, Accounting, Technology Infrastructure, Nuts and Bolts and other operational considerations.
5) Team. How to recruit, building a culture, keeping focus, motivating long term and balancing hard skills vs soft skills
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505