Zi Lin did everything “right.” Philosophy major, law school, great grades, OCI, Biglaw offer, six-figure salary. From the outside, the path looked impressive. From the inside, it felt like being processed through a conveyor belt. No one asked whether the career actually fit. It was just the obvious next step. Parents approved. Professors approved. Colleagues approved. When everyone around you nods along, it’s easy to assume there’s nothing to think about.

The problem came later, once Zi was actually practicing. The culture inside the firm didn’t match what was promised. “Bring your whole self to work” sounds supportive until you realize it only applies if your whole self fits the mold. Zi found herself performing a version of “acceptable lawyer,” constantly adjusting how she acted, talked, socialized, even reacted. When your value comes from churning out work and avoiding the wrong reactions, there’s no space to be a person. There’s only survival.

In this episode Zi Lin joins Sarah to talk about her experience leaving Biglaw and what she's doing now.

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Personal Art Instagram (@garbage_collector_s)

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A lot of lawyers assume that making more money will make leaving easier. In reality, the opposite often happens. Once you are in a high-paying legal job, it can feel like there is no other path that will work. People outside the profession are usually surprised by this. They assume lawyers have endless options, but many lawyers feel they have to hang on to what they have because there may not be anything else that fits.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/289

Today’s podcast episode is an important reminder every lawyer needs to hear. Sarah reminds listeners that nothing about your job is as important as you and your emotional, mental, and physical health. For lawyers, it’s easy to feel their value as human beings is basically in job performance. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/229

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions, so check out the others before and after this one. Graeber gives four reasons why having a bullshit job feels so miserable.

Last week’s discussion was all about the first reason—ambiguity and forced pretense—catch up on that one first. 

This podcast episode is part of the series where Sarah is chatting with Annie Little about the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. If you missed the first episode in this series, check that out first and learn the background of this series and more about Annie. This episode is about the misery of ambiguity and forced pretense, which is the first of four things Graeber identifies as an impact that having a bullshit job can have on you.

When it comes to ambiguity in law firms, the lack of transparency is the first thing that comes to mind for Annie. She points out that there should be a simple, straightforward path with clear instructions on each assignment and an obvious ladder to climb within the firm. In reality, there are so many hidden things that lawyers are left to just figure out on their own. 

Sarah kicks off a new series on today’s podcast with Annie Little, another lawyer career coach. Annie has been on the podcast a few times in the past, like the episode on ADHD. She founded her company, JD Nation, and helps lawyers find better jobs, both in and out of law. 

In this series, the two of them discuss the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber and dive into some of the book’s observations. This first episode covers why you should care about this book and answer, “Is being a lawyer a bullshit job?”

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with Heather Davies, another former lawyer.

Heather’s new career as a professional organizer is something that many listeners have messaged Sarah about, so they chat about her journey to become a lawyer and what led to her transition to a professional organizer.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/211

For this Thanksgiving week podcast, Sarah is sharing the three reasons why she’s grateful she made the choice to stop practicing law. Many lawyers who are considering making a change spend so much time thinking about everything that could go wrong.

It’s a big decision, but it’s also really important to think about what has led you to this moment and think about what you’ll gain. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/210

Today’s episode covers a statement that Sarah often hears from lawyers who want to do something other than legal work. People say, “I’m not just lazy,” “I’m not lazy,” or “It’s not that I don’t want to work.”

Only people who decide to become lawyers have this internal narrative that they are “lazy” if they don’t continue down this path. There’s an assumption that laziness is the reason, but that’s not the case.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/209

Many people who listen to this podcast or reach out to work with Sarah have the question, “Does working as a lawyer give you anxiety or depression?” This podcast covers mental health and the subject of anxiety a lot, and Sarah has talked a lot about being diagnosed with generalized anxiety and a panic disorder. These mental health issues are common among lawyers, so let’s discuss that question.

There’s not really a definitive answer to this question. It’s interesting how much this concern is raised, and that fact in itself says a lot about the profession and its effect on people. It comes up in the Collab program and conversations with clients at all stages of their careers. If this is something that you’re asking, you are not alone.

Learn more about Collab Plus

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/208

Today’s episode features a conversation about how law firms fail lawyers with ADHD with Annie Little. Annie has been on the podcast several times to discuss ADHD in lawyers. This conversation focused on one of the problems in the legal profession regarding how firms are accommodating lawyers with ADHD. It’s often treated like the person with ADHD is what needs to be fixed instead of the structures in the organization. 

Annie has worked with many lawyers and spent time in the legal industry. Both Annie and Sarah have plenty of personal experience with law firms and how they handle the disclosure of different needs of their lawyers. This episode explores how a law firm deals with lawyers who have shared an ADHD diagnosis.

Learn more about the Collab Plus

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/207

In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell and Annie Little engaged in a candid conversation about ADHD and its prevalence among lawyers. They dive into an intriguing question that came in on social media after a previous ADHD conversation: Does being a lawyer give you ADHD? 

 The podcast revealed some compelling insights about ADHD in the legal profession and debunked misconceptions. If you're a lawyer contemplating a career change, this blog post is for you. We'll break down the essential points from the podcast and explore the real challenges lawyers with ADHD face, shedding light on why they may be considering leaving the law.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/206

Last week, Lauren Ascher was on the podcast to discuss accommodations for lawyers with ADHD. It’s a good segway into an important conversation about disclosing ADHD and other mental health issues to your law firm. It’s no secret that there is a high incidence rate among lawyers for anxiety, depression, panic disorders, and other issues. 

In the United States, you are entitled to certain accommodations legally for disorders covered under the ADA. But a real challenge is deciding whether or not you will disclose your ADHD, anxiety, or depression to HR at your workplace. It can feel really daunting to think about disclosing something like this at work. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/205

2025 is more than halfway through, and if you told yourself this was the year you’d leave practice, this is your check-in. September is basically here, which means four months left in the year. That’s still plenty of time to make progress. And honestly, the start of fall always feels like a reset — school year vibes, even for those of us who haven’t been in school for decades. So if you haven’t taken steps yet, you haven’t missed your chance.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/281

Today’s podcast episode is diving into the experience of being a lawyer with ADHD. There have been some episodes covering this topic in the past, but this one is with Lauren Ascher, and it’s for people who have ADHD and are wondering what kind of accommodations they can ask their workplace for. 

Lauren is a former lawyer. She graduated from Columbia Law School in 2011. Making a career change coincided with her ADHD diagnosis, which came about ten years into her legal career. Since then, she’s become an ADHD coach and is getting her master’s in mental health counseling. It’s valuable to have an actual background in law and to understand ADHD. She’s able to help people and give them hope and strategies to cope. 

There is a much higher percentage of people who are lawyers who have ADHD than the general population. Many people listen to this podcast who have ADHD or suspect that they may have ADHD, so let’s dive in.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/204

On today’s podcast of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah is talking about why it sucks to make partner at a law firm.

This isn’t true for everyone, but there are a ton of lawyers out there who works so hard to make partner and then ask themselves, “What have I done?” If you are one of those people or you feel like you’re on that path, this is for you.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/203

On the podcast today, Sarah is talking about lawyers feeling that they don’t fit at their law firm and feeling something is wrong with them because it seems to be working for everyone else.

After years of conversations with lawyers (and former lawyers) Sarah has discovered how common this feeling is. Not fitting in is actually a good thing, and Sarah will explain why.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/202

In today’s podcast episode, Sarah is joined by Francesca Korbas. Francesca is the COO and a partner in the educational consultancy Vested Academics.

Her story follows a unique path than many lawyers who decided to go to law school, and it provides a fascinating perspective on what it's like to step away from law into advocacy work.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/201

Today’s podcast marks a special milestone. It’s the 200th episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast. To celebrate, Sarah sat down with Stacey Harris of Uncommonly More, who Sarah works with to produce the podcast, to talk about how the podcast came to be and what it created.

Other Episodes Mentioned:

Lawyers, Your Job Should Not Make You Cry

The “No Assholes Rule” (And Why It’s A Joke)

Is Being A Lawyer A Bullshit Job?

Burnout In Lawyers with Ilona Salmons

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/200

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah has a conversation with Romy Frazier. Romy is a former lawyer who transitioned from practicing law into real estate investing.

The conversation is extremely helpful because she shares the importance of taking action and making a plan while moving gradually through the process. There are always some good takeaways from listening to someone else’s stories.

Let’s get to know Romy and learn about her story.

Learn more about The Guided Track

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/199

On today’s podcast, Sarah dives into a specific piece of the Guided Track that many clients have found incredibly beneficial. The Guided Track is a small group program that is offered twice a year. This small group works together through the Former Lawyer framework while discussing questions and obstacles and celebrating wins. 

The CliftonStrengths Workshop is part of the Guided Track experience. Vanessa Kuljis (a previous guest on the podcast) comes in and does the workshop with the group. It’s an incredibly powerful tool and is often overlooked on the sales page for the Guided Track. CliftonStrengths is a strengths assessment that looks for 34 different talent themes that, when cultivated, turn into strengths. Each person has a different order of these various strengths. The top five are the most significant.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/198

In today’s episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks about the offers she has available for lawyers who are interested in leaving law and looking for some resources to help organize thoughts and plans.

Sarah offers three different programs, each building off the base of the Collaborative and providing a different level of accountability and follow-up depending on your needs. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/197

In today’s episode, Sarah is wrapping up the summer series where she asked questions of some of her clients, who shared their personal experiences. Previous episodes have asked about myths, advice for the person they were five years ago, and much more. Make sure to catch up if you want to hear from people who have utilized some incredible resources The Former Lawyer offers. 

This episode focuses on the Guided Track. This is a small group program within the Collab. The group of eight lawyers max meets for ten weeks and works through an action plan that follows the Former Lawyer Framework. In addition, there are some other tools included, like CliftonStrength workshops.

These clients share their experiences and why they think someone should join. The Guided Track happens twice a year, in the spring and in the fall.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/196

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing answers from Collab members for another question as part of the summer series. Each episode in the series asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.

Today's question is: what’s something you've learned that you wish you could go back and tell the you of five years ago?

Sarah is sharing these responses and talking about how common it is to feel this way. You are not alone if you are struggling in your law career, and it’s possible that you wish you could give the you of five years ago some information as well.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/195

The question comes up constantly - in podcast interviews, on Collab group calls, and in emails from listeners. "What if the grass isn't greener on the other side?"

It's tied to this idea that maybe being miserable at work is just what it means to be an adult with a job. Maybe every workplace is toxic. Maybe no one really likes what they do. You'll even hear people outside the law say things like "Well, no one likes their job."

There's something almost protective about believing this. If you don't believe it will be better elsewhere, it's easier to keep doing the thing you're doing, even if the thing that you're doing is painful and not great for your mental and physical and emotional well-being.

But after six years of interviewing former lawyers, I can tell you the grass really is greener.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/280

On today’s podcast episode, you’ll learn more about members of the Collab and what has surprised them most. Each episode in this series asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences. 

Today’s question is: What is the biggest surprise you have experienced thus far in following The Former Lawyer Framework as a Collab member? These members are working to figure out if they want to stay in law or do something different.

Each of the five respondents had something different that surprised them, so you’ll see each of the answers. It’s an interesting way to learn more about the program and what it’s helped members discover about themselves and their career paths.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/194

On today’s podcast episode, it’s another series episode where Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences. 

Today’s question is: What’s one thing that you thought was true that you’ve realized is not true?

Each of the five respondents shares a myth that they believed was true, and how it held them back from making career decisions. With more clarity upon completion of the Guided Track, each of these respondents could reassess their careers.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/193

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members as part of the summer series. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.

Today's question: What is one thing that felt obvious or elementary that was really transformative for you?

Sarah reminds listeners that sometimes you need that additional support to really recognize when something will make a big difference for you, even if it feels obvious.

On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members as part of the summer series. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences. Each person is answering this question today: What is one thing that felt obvious or elementary that was really transformative for you?

Sarah reminds listeners that sometimes you need that additional support to really recognize when something will make a big difference for you, even if it feels obvious.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/192

In today’s podcast, Sarah is kicking off a new series where listeners will hear first-hand experiences from her clients. In each episode, one question will be asked, and you’ll get to hear answers from multiple people. 

Each of the clients answering this question is part of the Collab. This is a self-paced program where you get access to The Former Lawyer Framework, the curriculum that helps people figure out what they want to do outside of the law. Collab members are also given access to the Circle community, which is a group of people who can relate to the struggles of leaving the law.

The question kicking this off is: What is one thing that you resisted doing in this process of figuring out what you want to do that isn’t practicing law that you wish you had done sooner?

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/191

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job. Today, it’s time to dive into the fourth and final misery that comes with bullshit jobs. Go back and catch up if you missed the first three in this series.

The final misery covered in the book is the misery based on knowing that one is doing harm. The most obvious example of this as lawyers would be representing a person or entity, and they are asking you to do something that is itself harmful. While these situations may arise, people tend to be aware and can deal with the moral conflict. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/190

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber.

It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job, and today, it’s time to dive into the third misery that comes with bullshit jobs. If you missed the first two, go back and catch up.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/189

In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions, so check out the others before and after this one. Graeber gives four reasons why having a bullshit job feels so miserable.

Last week’s discussion was all about the first reason—ambiguity and forced pretense—catch up on that one first. Then, let’s dive into the second reason.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/188

This podcast episode is part of the series where Sarah is chatting with Annie Little about the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. If you missed the first episode in this series, check that out first and learn the background of this series and more about Annie. This episode is about the misery of ambiguity and forced pretense, which is the first of four things Graeber identifies as an impact that having a bullshit job can have on you.

When it comes to ambiguity in law firms, the lack of transparency is the first thing that comes to mind for Annie. She points out that there should be a simple, straightforward path with clear instructions on each assignment and an obvious ladder to climb within the firm. In reality, there are so many hidden things that lawyers are left to just figure out on their own.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/187

Sarah kicks off a new series on today's podcast with Annie Little, another lawyer career coach. Annie has been on the podcast a few times in the past, like the episode on ADHD. She founded her company, JD Nation, and helps lawyers find better jobs, both in and out of law.

In this new series, the two of them discuss the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber and dive into some of the book's observations. This first episode covers why you should care about this book and answer, “Is being a lawyer a bullshit job?”

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/186

On the podcast today, Sarah is talking to Andrew Sohn, a podcast listener. He was practicing law when he began listening to the podcast and decided to transition to career services at a law school.

Andrew shares his journey from law school and deciding to leave the law for the career happiness he's found today.

It was interesting to hear many of the previous podcast themes come up in the conversation, so let’s dive in and learn more about Andrew’s story.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/185

There's a partner at your firm. Everyone knows about them. Multiple people have quit working for them. Multiple people have gone out on mental health leave. When people talk about this partner, they use phrases like "difficult" or "has sharp elbows."

If you listen to Sarah's episode about the no-asshole rule, you know that “has sharp elbows” generally means they're abusive. But somehow, despite the clear pattern of destruction in their wake, you're supposed to act like this is normal. Like maybe you'll be different.

This is not normal. This is nuts.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/279

In today’s episode, Sarah talks about how people look at those who leave law firms. The views tend to be distorted, especially from others who work at the firm.

This comes up often in Sarah’s conversations with former lawyers and people who are still currently working in law, so today, she’s diving in a bit deeper.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/184

In today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Raha Francis. Raha graduated from Harvard Law and worked as a corporate intellectual property attorney before pivoting into a management consultant role at the Boston Consulting Group.

During those years, she figured out how she wanted to spend her days and helps people today figure out how to create a career and life that resonates with them. 

The conversation centers around self-compassion and using curiosity to help determine the best path. 

Let’s dive in.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/183

In this podcast episode, Sarah responds to a listener's email about a recent episode where the discussion was about law firms and the narcissists that often run them. The listener wanted an additional discussion on the podcast about the bullying and abuse that goes on in law firms. 

Sarah spent a decade moving through different sections of the law, plus the recent work on Former Lawyer with many stories from other current and former lawyers. If anyone is going through this situation, it’s horrible and confusing. It’s hard even to understand what is happening at the moment. 

Much of the abuse involves lawyers being told their work isn’t good enough, but not in a constructive criticism way. There’s a difference between giving someone feedback in a way that they can take it and it can be useful, and then there is just being a jerk. Managing people requires skills, especially when it comes to giving feedback.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/182

On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Jayci Lee, a former lawyer who has become an author since leaving her job as a litigator. The conversation covers everything from the process of leaving law to the importance of caring for mental health.

Sarah discovered Jayci after reading one of her books where the main character is a lawyer. One former lawyer instantly recognized another, and she knew Jayci would be a great podcast guest. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/181

Sarah talked with Karen Gulde a few months ago as part of the former lawyers turned therapists month. Karen talked about her experience of hypervigilance as a lawyer, the experience of her nervous system is constantly activated, and how common that is for lawyers.

Sarah’s husband, Ed Cottrell, posted a reaction to that on LinkedIn and shared his experiences in the last year since he left law. 

In this episode, Sarah chats more with Ed about his experience with hypervigilance and leaving the law.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/180

Sarah is interviewing Dina Lynch Eisenberg, an organizational ombuds, with an interesting journey through her career. As a former lawyer, she understands the struggles of that profession and has found a way to utilize her skills to build a business.

The conversation covers the different paths she took after leaving the law (her patchwork career to put it in Dina's words). Plus, she dives into exactly what she does for work now as an organizational ombuds. It’s a great conversation for any former lawyers considering HR roles and anyone looking to learn more about what’s out there.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/179

In today’s environment, Biglaw is, unfortunately, doing quite a few layoffs, and it’s a topic that many lawyers have at the top of their minds. This podcast covers many's feelings when laid off and some ways to reframe your thoughts around the topic.

We'll discuss what stealth layoffs are, why it's ok to have mixed feelings, and how to move forward.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/178

On today’s podcast, Sarah talks to Ruth Kaufman, a voice-over and on-film actor who is also a former lawyer.

Law school was never an option that Ruth felt drawn to, but with pressures from her parents, she earned her degree. Her career path has woven in and out of law a bit, but she’s now a successful voiceover actor.

Learn more about her journey and advice to anyone looking to make a similar shift.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/177

Sarah spoke with last week’s guest, Megan Nogasky, again on this week’s podcast to dive deeper into the idea of taking mental health breaks.

They chatted about the importance of listening to the signs, how to take the first steps, and some of the common challenges lawyers have in taking a mental health break.

If you missed last week's episode, make sure to listen to learn more about Megan’s story of leaving law and turning to the mental health field. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/176

In today’s podcast episode, Sarah talks to Megan Nogasky, her former law school classmate.

Megan is another former lawyer who returned to school to get into the mental health space to join the series featuring lawyers who have transitioned into this industry.

Megan shares some great advice and gives listeners her story about discovering that being a lawyer wasn’t for her anymore and how she made the transition. 

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/175

In today’s podcast, Sarah discusses how to know when it’s the right time to leave law. Many people listening are grappling with this question, and often, when they ask it, they are looking for an external answer. There is no external answer. You are the only person that can decide when the time is right.

The reality is that you need to ask yourself two questions to know if now is the right time for YOU to leave the law.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/231

On the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah is chatting with Lauren Ascher about how an ADHD diagnosis changed a career, prompting her to make the career change from law to mental health work.

After ten years as a lawyer, Lauren is back in school, getting her master’s in mental health counseling. She is also working as an ADHD executive function coach.

After our episode with Annie Little a few months ago, many listeners have reached out about undiagnosed ADHD, so read along and listen to the podcast to learn about Lauren’s experience as a former lawyer.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/174

In this episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah interviews Yael Eiserike, a former lawyer turned therapist.

They talk about the challenges of deciding to go back to school, why therapy felt like the best fit for Yael, and what advice she has for any current lawyers debating making a big change in their life. 

Connect with Yael Eiserke

In this episode, Sarah interviews a former lawyer, Karen Gulde. After 22 years as a lawyer, she decided to transition into counseling and help drive home the importance of mental health and self-care.

Sarah and Karen talk about what factors led to her making the career switch, and what advice she has for others who might be considered the same.

See show notes at formerlawyer.com/167