The Dissociative Table – Details, episodes & analysis

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The Dissociative Table

Various hosts and guests

Science

Frequency: 1 episode/28d. Total Eps: 20

Named for George Fraser's famous technique, The Dissociative Table is a forum for leaders in the field of complex trauma treatment to share innovations and insights regarding theory and application. Synthesis of effective modalities is a major focus, as is the development of narrative meaning as a healing objective beyond symptom relief. TDT does not specifically endorse any modalities or schools of thought; however, many of the hosts and guests are connected to the EMDR Institute and the larger EMDRIA community. Content is not endorsed by the EMDR Institute or EMDRIA.

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https://crackedmachine.bandcamp.com/
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https://crackedmachine.bandcamp.com
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https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ad-Jongh
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https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Suzy-Matthijssen
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The Dissociation of "I and Thou": AI, authenticity, and EMDR (Ep. 212: Sander Kamphuis, part 4 of 4)

Season 2 · Episode 12

Sunday, October 27, 2024 • Duration 32:30

This episode is the fourth in a four-part series, featuring a conversation with Sander Kamphuis, CEO and founder of Moovd. He and his colleagues have created an AI-driven, but 100% therapist-controlled EMDR software called WeMind, as explained in previous episodes.

This episode has nothing to do with WeMind, Instead, the host and Sander discuss the ethical dilemma created by a hypothetical AI therapist healing developmental trauma, in that at some level, the client is passing the "Turing Test" if the therapeutic relationship is central to treatment. That is, successful treatment would be based on a very dark untruth, as AI cannot actually feel pain. This moves to a larger treatment of relational issues concerning AI that have nothing to do with therapy, which leads to the question of whether the aforementioned dark lie already pervades society, regardless of AI. Sander then grills the host on the potential pitfalls of using advanced EMDR technology in the USA.

These episodes featuring Mr. Kamphuis represent a considered and impartial exploration, not an advertisement. It is important to note (as usual) that neither TDT, nor its hosts and associates, have received financial compensation for these episodes. Advertisement of the product's free trial is intended to help you make up your own mind.

TDT's hosts have directly tested WeMind to avoid absolute naiveté, both in real clinical settings, and in a controlled, experimental manner to test its limits.In future (as in past) episodes, guests will offer counterpoints to Mr. Kamphuis's views, and this video is a dialogue, rather than an endorsement of his perspectives. Likewise, The Dissociative Table does not endorse the views of its hosts, nor do any professional organizations to which the hosts or guests might belong.

Join the discussion of this episode and others at the anonymous, free, clinicians-only discussion board by emailing dissociativetable@gmail.com.

The music in this episode is taken from the song "Svetlana," from Cracked Machine's album I, Cosmonaut. The band has generously donated rights to their music to TDT in support of increased global access to effective trauma treatment. Stream or download at: https://crackedmachine.bandcamp.com/

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The inevitable AI "therapist": Beyond WeMind EMDR (Ep. 211: Sander Kamphuis, part 3 of 4)

Season 2 · Episode 11

Tuesday, September 10, 2024 • Duration 28:12

This episode is the third in a four-part series, featuring a conversation with Sander Kamphuis, CEO and founder of Moovd. He and his colleagues have created an AI-driven, but 100% therapist-controlled EMDR software called WeMind, as explained in previous episodes.

However, this episode has little to do with WeMind itself, and explores what comes next. The cat is out of the bag with regard to AI and EMDR (and the market to be tapped), and it is only a small step in programming to train a large-language model as an all-AI EMDR "therapist," using the sessions and strategies of the best minds in EMDR. If Sander doesn't build it and sell it, someone will. Someone already is, in all likelihood, but there is no regulatory system worth mentioning in the therapy world, as there is in medicine.

The idea conjures up images of compassion on the level of Skynet deciding that best way to prevent nuclear war is to nuke humanity. But such a lack of reflection will not produce the necessary dialogue regarding the inevitability of hyper-intelligent, all-AI therapists, and the proper response.

Episode highlights include:

-The costs and benefits of age in general, and how younger therapists must join the larger dialogue

-How the tech market caters to laziness, with implications for therapy quality

-The risks involved when a hypothetical AI therapist does not recognize early trauma

-The possibility of expert evaluation prior to treatment with an AI therapist, and maintenance of human therapist oversight

-The urgent need for international, legal restrictions on AI therapists comparable to those currently used with "AI radiologists" in medicine.

10 SECOND AI-DRIVEN FLASH TECHNIQUE: What does it say about EMDR? (Ep. 210: Adventures in Synergy 2)

Season 2 · Episode 10

Monday, August 19, 2024 • Duration 11:10

In this brief episode (210), titled "Adventures in Synergy Part 2," the host demonstrates one of many trials he has run with Flash and WeMind's AI-optimized software, exploring both how far the limits can be pushed, and investigating the inner workings of EMDR and Flash. Watching the first episode is strongly recommended, or at least reading the episode summary.

Here, a much more disturbing memory has been selected by a different participant. This memory gave the participant a major panic attack days before filming. And, this time, ten seconds with one "Flash" is used, rather than 20 seconds with five "Flashes." So, pushing things to the limit! Other trial videos will not be published, as interesting as they are.

Following the demonstration, which is quite brief, some commentary follows regarding larger theoretical implications, rather than simply analyzing this brief treatment alone.

In future episodes, guests will offer counterpoints to these views, and this video is intended to present rather than endorse the host's perspective. The Dissociative Table Podcast does not specifically endorse the views of the host, nor do any professional organizations. The podcast is not the property of the hosts, and is entirely non-profit.

If you are a clinician, or studying to be one, email dissociativeable@gmail.com to join the clinicians-only discussion board free of charge. The board is moderated, has no membership, and posts can be anonymous.

The music used in this episode is taken from the song, "Yamata No Orochi" from the album Call of the Void, by the band Cracked Machine. The band has generously donated rights to their music in support of increased global access to effective trauma therapy. Their albums can be sampled, streamed, and purchased at crackedmachine.bandcamp.com.

Compassion, Curiosity and Collaboration: Kathy Steele's basic treatment approach (Ep. 209)

Season 2 · Episode 9

Sunday, July 28, 2024 • Duration 36:02

This episode, "Compassionate Curiosity," features Kathy Steele, famed co-author of The Haunted Self, advocating for a collaborative therapeutic model in resolving severe traumatization, in which attachment phobias are addressed by giving the client (perhaps "gifting" the client) responsibility in treatment. In this manner, the client begins to experience authentic relationship, rather than the therapist supporting maladaptive coping by becoming either a rescuer or an expert (or both).

Ms. Steele is a Past President and Fellow of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD), and has also served two terms on the Board of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies (ISTSS). She has received a number of awards for her work, including the Lifetime Achievement Award from ISSTD, an Emory University Distinguished Alumni Award, and the Cornelia B. Wilbur Award for Outstanding Clinical Contributions from ISSTD. Publications include The Haunted Self (co-author), Treating Trauma-Related Dissociation (first author), and many book chapters.

Highlights include:

-How therapists facilitate dependency by reinforcing attachment phobias-Polyvagal theory and the collaborative approach

-The wisdom of prioritizing relationship over knowing "what's going on"-The importance of the client having a persistent "felt sense" of the therapeutic relationship, rather than having unlimited therapist availability and poor boundaries

-Curiosity as a tool for making resistance and relationship rupture the most important moments in treatment-Sharing confusion with the client about treatment direction, to drive collaborative treatment an activate the client's exploration system

-Psychoeducational discussion as an underrated toolLook for Ms. Steele's online trainings, resources, books, and consultation groups at kathy-steele.com.

In future (as in past) episodes, guests will offer counterpoints to Ms. Steele's views, and this video is a dialogue, rather than an endorsement of her perspective. Likewise, The Dissociative Table does not endorse the views of its hosts, nor do any professional organizations to which the hosts might belong.

OFF SCRIPT: Flash, Exposure, AI, EMDR 2.0 (Ep. 208: Ad de Jongh & Suzy Matthijssen Part 2 of 2)

Season 2 · Episode 8

Wednesday, July 3, 2024 • Duration 21:01

This episode, "Controversy! Dialogue! Flash! Exposure!" is an unplanned venture off-script. The host brings up Dr. Phil Manfield's claim (from an earlier TDT episode) that EMDR 2.0 is actually an unnecessarily complex version of Flash--and that the host's recent trials using AI mapping of working memory appear to offer credence to the claim. From the previous segment, the listener will know that EMDR 2.0 is the basis of the guests' work--an accelerated version of EMDR often utilizing exposure, and highly effective in inpatient and outpatient settings. This moves into further discussion of the importance of inspiring courage in traumatized clients, and even making therapy fun, rather than protecting the client like a breakable object. Iconoclastic and exuberant, Ad and Suzy are accomplished academics and clinicians, and their CV's are so long as to require hyperlinks below this paragraph! Ad de Jongh's CV: ⁠https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ad-Jongh⁠ Suzy Matthijssen's CV: ⁠https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Suzy-Matthijssen⁠ Highlights include:

-Are Flash and EMDR 2.0 fundamentally two ways of doing the same thing? Evidence for and against, including the success of Flash with an AI client trained only with EMDR sessions

-The host's experiments with AI-driven software based on EMDR 2.0, to successfully use Flash-The role of fun and encouragement in successful treatment, and how exposure is part and parcel of this

-PTSD conceptualized as an anxiety disorder or phobia, and how "stabilizing" techniques, or "safe spaces" may encourage fear or memories

-Why, despite a significant body of literature building since 2015, there is still no PSYTREC in the USA (hint: insurance companies)

-Resolving attachment issues by treating trauma, rather than the reverse Ad and Suzy have several intensive, online trainings pertaining to precisely what they speak about on this episode, at www.emdradvancedtrainings.com. As well, you can read the PSYTREC research at www.psytrec.nl, although you will need Chrome to translate this page into English. These links also appear halfway through this episode. In future (as in past) episodes, guests will offer counterpoints to Dr. de Jongh and Dr. Matthijssen's views, and this video is a dialogue, rather than an endorsement of their perspectives. Likewise, The Dissociative Table does not endorse the views of its hosts, nor do any professional organizations to which the hosts or guests might belong. It should be noted that the host has no connection to the guests through EMDRIA, as the Dutch have their own regulatory body for EMDR trainings and practitioners. Join the discussion of this episode and others at the anonymous, free, clinicians-only discussion board by emailing dissociativetable@gmail.com. The music in this episode is taken from the song "Transorbital," from Cracked Machine's album . The band has generously donated rights to their music in support of increased global access to effective trauma treatment. Stream or download at: https://crackedmachine.bandcamp.com/

Dissociative? NO PROBLEM! Brief PTSD treatment (Ep. 207: Ad de Jongh & Suzy Matthijssen Part 1 of 2)

Season 2 · Episode 7

Wednesday, June 26, 2024 • Duration 37:46

This episode, "Are we wasting our clients' time?" is a discussion with Professors Ad de Jongh and Suzy Mattijssen (part 1 of 2), pioneers in the intensive, brief, research-validated treatment of PTSD, including cases with severe comorbidities like MDD or BPD. Iconoclastic and exuberant, Ad and Suzy are accomplished academics and clinicians, and their CV's are so long as to require hyperlinks below this paragraph! The host presents common objections to their methods from therapeutic community--these generally focus on the way in which dissociative symptoms should be addressed in treatment.

Ad de Jongh's CV: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ad-Jongh Suzy Mattijssen's CV: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Suzy-Matthijssen

Highlights include:

-The largely American cultural phenomenon of treating dissociative symptoms as separate from PTSD symptoms

-Ad and Suzy's claim that there is an irrational fear of dissociative symptoms among some clinicians (especially in the EMDR world), which is not seen in the CBT world

-Highly dissociated childhood memories accessed and resolved by associations naturally made during intensive treatment of recent trauma, rather than years of therapy

-The lack of research validation for the Theory of Structural Dissociation of the Personality, and similar conceptualizations of dissociation as "parts."

-Repression of uncomfortable memories and dissociation of troubling affect as a universal phenomenon, not related directly to trauma

-Therapists increasing the phobia of memories with "safe states," coping skills, and "resourcing."

-The PSYTREC facility, and the role of Working Memory Taxation in overcoming hypervigilance and resolving trauma

IS THIS HOW EMDR 2.0 WORKS? AI Optimization of FLASH with WeMind (Ep. 206: Adventures In Synergy 1)

Season 2 · Episode 6

Monday, June 3, 2024 • Duration 20:12

In this episode, titled "Adventures in Synergy," the host presents an example of a practical intervention created through dialogue on this podcast. The intervention is the application of The Flash Technique using WeMind software (designed for EMDR) and based in Working Memory Taxation theory, with the intention of using this tool for cases of complex trauma that exceed client capacity for even considering the activation of traumatic memories. This video represents an integration of ideas from multiple episodes, developed over time, as is explained in the commentary following the demonstration. Disclosure information: The host is an EMDRIA Approved Consultant, as well as being on faculty at the EMDR Institute as a Facilitator. He was trained in Flash when it was first developed, and trained in EMDR 2.0 at its introduction to an outpatient setting. He is currently participating in Beta testing of WeMind's AI client. He has no financial interest in any of the above, nor in this podcast. Highlights include: -A demonstration of rapid treatment of a significantly disturbing memory with WeMind (AI) optimized Flash -The synthesis of theory and conversation leading to this experiment -A discussion of practical benefits this technique presents to clinicians and clients alike -Possible theoretical implications of the technique for the intersection of Working Memory Taxation theory (EMDR 2.0, WeMind) and subliminal exposure (Flash); namely, that there may be a shared "operating system" that could be further optimized. -A possible explanation of why SUD sometimes doesn't reduce, even without dissociative blocks or blocking beliefs, etc. In future episodes, guests will offer counterpoints to these views, and this video is intended to present rather than endorse the host's perspective. The Dissociative Table Podcast does not specifically endorse the views of the host, nor do any professional organizations.

The music used in this episode is taken from the song, "Move 37," from the album Gates of Keras, by the band Cracked Machine. The band has generously donated rights to their music in support of increased global access to effective trauma therapy. Their albums can be sampled and purchased at crackedmachine.bandcamp.com.

ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE EMDR: What about the therapist? (Ep. 205: Sander Kamphuis, part 2 of 4)

Season 2 · Episode 5

Wednesday, May 15, 2024 • Duration 39:25

This episode is the second in a four-part series, featuring a conversation with Sander Kamphuis, CEO and founder of Moovd. He and his colleagues have created an AI-driven EMDR software called WeMind. WeMind is already being used by thousands of therapists with thousands of clients, has involved some of the biggest names in EMDR (Ad de Jongh, for instance), and is the subject of intense academic research.

This second episode begins to explore complexities and ethical issues with AI-optimized therapy. For more general information on WeMind, a demonstration, its basis in Working Memory Taxation theory, and how AI optimizes trauma processing, please consult Episode 204. You can link to Moovd's own description and research at www.moovd.nl/en.

So, again, this episode begins to pose ethical questions regarding the use of WeMind, especially with newly trained EMDR therapists, or consultees in training. For instance, if we learn by making mistakes, what happens to learning when AI makes the mistakes for us? Subsequent episodes will delve even deeper into complexities, including ethical concerns regarding the inevitable development of AI-controlled software that cuts out the therapist entirely. That is, WeMind has produced robust results for clients with even CPTSD, and as a result, EMDR is only the beginning for AI and complex trauma. Regardless of what therapy you use, these four episodes will be of great interest.

Episode highlights include:

-The importance of outcome studies, given the prevalence of "fake cures" in brief treatment that does not adequately explore attachment wounds and highly dissociated early trauma

-AI as an augmentation of clinician skill, rather than a replacement

-Outcome studies with EMDR that integrates exposure in a European manner, something often shocking to US clinicians

-Surprising Jungian connections?

ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE EMDR: How powerful is it? (Ep. 204: Sander Kamphuis, part 1 of 4)

Season 2 · Episode 4

Thursday, April 18, 2024 • Duration 32:07

This episode is the first in a four-part series, featuring a conversation with Sander Kamphuis, CEO and founder of Moovd. He and his colleagues have created an AI-driven EMDR software called WeMind. WeMind is already being used by thousands of therapists with thousands of clients, has involved some of the biggest names in EMDR (Ad de Jongh, for instance), and is the subject of intense academic research.

This episode contains an introduction to WeMind, how WeMind might develop further in the near future, and a discussion of variant European and American approaches to trauma therapy.

Three subsequent episodes will delve deep into complexities, including possible ethical concerns related to using AI with any therapy for complex trauma, not only EMDR. WeMind has produced robust results for clients with PTSD, and as a result, EMDR is only the beginning for AI and complex trauma. Regardless of what therapy you use, these four episodes will be of great interest.

WeMind is based on the Working Memory Taxation theory of how EMDR operates, and its AI reacts to clients' input on WMT tasks to optimize reprocessing. Initial research indicates a 49% decrease in the time needed to desensitize traumatic memories in PTSD clients (EMDR Phase 4), and research is ongoing to investigate the use with other phases of EMDR, and with more complex clients.

This and subsequent episodes are a considered and impartial exploration, not an advertisement. In later episodes, as mentioned, some very hard questions are asked, and admirably answered by Mr. Kamphuis. It is important to note (as usual) that neither TDT, nor its hosts and associates, have received financial compensation for these episodes. TDT has also directly tested WeMind to avoid absolute naiveté, both in real clinical settings, and in a controlled, experimental manner to test its limits.

Highlights include:

Ep. 203: Dr. Sandra Paulsen (Part 4 of 4)

Season 2 · Episode 3

Saturday, March 16, 2024 • Duration 24:55

This episode, "The 'T' in N.E.S.T.: Preverbal trauma, narrative, and esoterica," is the fourth part (of four) of a conversation with Dr. Sandra Paulsen, arguably EMDR's most well-known authority on complex dissociative issues.

In this episode, she speaks about the topic she is most widely known for: the integration of Ego-State Therapy with EMDR. Dr. Paulsen is an active clinician, prolific author, and educator. Her lengthy CV includes dozens of published articles in peer-reviewed journals, and can be found at paulsenpsychology.com. Her more accessible books are most EMDR clinicians' introduction to treating complex trauma. A "cartooning psychologist," she also has an Etsy store! (sandrapaulsenphdart.etsy.com) Highlights include: -Somatic ego cathexis: speaking to parts (of the body!)

-Continued discussion of working with perpetrator introjects

-The early trauma protocol for EMDR to address preverbal attachment injury, including before birth (sounds impossible, but supported by neuroscience)

-Repairing early narrative with imaginal techniques and the "felt sense" of secure attachment at the time, as opposed to reparenting interventions that work from the adult mind.

-Dr. Paulsen's strategically-oriented perspective on the role of archetypes and dreams in understanding complex trauma

-Resolving nightmares quickly

-John Watkins' "tuna processing plant" theory of titrating the reprocessing of traumatic memories with ego-state therapy Dr. Paulsen's books, endorsed equipment, and art can be found at www.paulsenpsychology.com. Most of her online trainings are located at www.sfrankelgroup.com. In future (as in past) episodes, guests will offer counterpoints to Dr. Paulsen's views, and this video is a dialogue, rather than an endorsement of his perspectives. Likewise, The Dissociative Table does not endorse the views of its hosts, nor do any professional organizations to which the hosts or guests might belong. Join the discussion of this episode and others at the anonymous, free, clinicians-only discussion board by emailing dissociativetable@gmail.com. The music in this episode is taken from the song "Eigenstate," from Cracked Machine's 2024 album Wormwood. The band has generously donated rights to their music in support of increased global access to effective trauma treatment. Stream or download at: https://crackedmachine.bandcamp.com/

The Dissociative Table – Details, episodes & analysis

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The Dissociative Table – Details, episodes & analysis

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