Warning - this episode uses a specific curse word - a lot. And once we started using one, we started using more of them. So…if f-bombs, sprinkled like salt are not your cup of tea, this is a good episode to skip!

My guest today is Rebecca R Block, PhD, who is an expert in helping organizations build programs, services and products that equip young people to develop the confidence and skills they need to enter adulthood as thriving and adaptable lifelong learners. She has spent the last 14 years leading the design, improvement, and evaluation of educational programs and services to make them more impactful and learner-centered. She has built R&D departments from scratch and managed large and small teams responsible for creating, measuring, and improving learning experiences.

She also wrote a book with the word “Shit” in the title…or Shit, with an asterisk where the “I” goes, which actually makes her book a bit hard to google!

The book is titled “Can You Help Me Give a Sh*t? Unlocking Teen Motivation in School and Life,” and she teamed up with Grace L Edwards, a current undergraduate student, to talk to young people across the country and gather their stories about what truly makes for engaging learning environments. In the process, she learned a lot about how motivation works for everyone, not just teens, and has taken those lessons learned into her work as a leader, parent, and educator. 

In the opening quote Becca outlines the ABCs of Motivation. These ABCs are true for children and adults - we’re basically the same species. And the work of luminaries such as Peter Senge and Amy Edmondson make it clear that great working environments are great learning environments - places where we can create and sustain positive feedback learning loops with ourselves and others. So it’s essential for anyone leading or managing others (or themselves!) to understand how motivation really works. 

We also talk about Becca’s essential values when it comes to co-creation - that is, making a systems change along with the people in that system who will be affected by that change. Co-creation is not just a good idea… it leverages the truths about motivation that Becca shared in her opening quote. People are much more likely to want to participate in change that they’ve taken part in forming, rather than going along with something forced on them.

Two Levels of Systems Change

We also talk about the need to work on at least two levels when engaging in systems change:

Helping people, now

Helping make a bigger shift, over time.

Given that Becca knows how challenging it can be to transform a system as complex as education, she focuses her work in this book on helping people, now, to work to create change for themselves, within the current system. This perspective is helpful for anyone leading a team in a larger organization or anyone leading an organization within a larger industry they are hoping to transform.

Listen in for Becca’s deeper breakdown of the ABC’s of motivation, as well, summarized here!

The ABCs of Motivation

Ability
Belonging
Choices

Ability: In any situation where you want someone (or even yourself!) to have sustained motivation, you need the Ability to do (or learn how to do) the things you want to do. Indeed, whenever you find that someone isn’t doing something you have asked them to do, it’s important to ask - is this an issue of Will or Skill? In other words, can they do the thing? If they can’t yet, do they have the confidence in their ability to learn the thing?

Belonging: Real relationships help us accomplish things. I show up for my Spanish lessons (partly) because I’ve paid for them, and partly because I’d feel bad for standing up my tutor, even though the classes are online. Ditto for my exercise classes. Real relationships create real motivation. In a recent episode, I spoke with Robbie Hammond, Co-founder of the High Line, who talked about how his relationship with his Co-Founder Josh David kept him going through a difficult decade of bringing their dream to reality - talk about Relationships = Motivation!

Choices: Having real choices means you have the autonomy to determine for yourself what you are going to do. “Liberty or Death” isn’t much of a choice - although it is one many have taken. Becca suggests that dysfunctional workplaces create crappy or fake choices, and functional ones enable everyone to see how the work fits into their own personal why.

I connect these ideas to my recent interview with Ashley Goodall, author of “Nine Lies about Work” and most recently “The Problem with Change." Ashley says, “The ultimate job of leadership is not disruption and it is not to create change; it is to create a platform for human contribution, to create the conditions in which people can do the best work of their lives.” This is what every human (and teenager!) actually really wants, if they can connect to the ABCs of motivation.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Get the book here

BeccaBlock.com

Becca’s podcast

CanYouHelpMeGiveA.com. 

If you want to be on her podcast: fill out a form here!

Sometimes the bold goals we set out to achieve actually happen, and sometimes something even more amazing happens - something better than we can imagine.

Usually that happens because of the people we meet along the way, the conversations we have, the unexpected connections we make that open up new doors - in a word, Serendipity. I had always wondered about what amazing, powerful and sustained conversations led to the High Line Park in New York City becoming a reality.

Have you walked the High Line? Literally millions of people a year walk some of its 1.45 mile length, enjoying expansive views of the city and hundreds of local plantings, as well as amazing art installations. But it was slated for demolition and considered an eyesore and a relic, as long ago as the 1980s.

Built in 1933, it was at the time a revolutionary elevated train line that was colloquially called the Lifeline of New York City since it was regularly bringing millions of tons of meat, dairy and produce by rail, directly into the warehouses and factories of lower manhattan for preparation and distribution. The rail line wasn’t just a lifeline because of the food it brought, it also moved the rail lines safely above the city’s growing traffic - in the 1910s, hundreds of people were killed by the ground-level trains that ran in the middle of the bustling 10th avenue!

By the 1960s the line was growing obsolete due to the rise of trucking, and by the 1980s, it was a hulking relic of the past.

In 1999, Robbie Hammond, my guest for this conversation, co-founded the Friends of the High Line along with Joshua David. The two met at a local community board meeting where the High Line’s future was being discussed. Rudy Guliani, NYC’s mayor at the time, had signed an executive order for its demolition - many property owners wanted it gone so they could take back the land occupied by the tracks and build bigger buildings - a dream of greater square footage and increased rent rolls.

Currently Robbie is the President & Chief Strategy Officer for Therme Group US, where he is leading an initiative to bring large scale bathing facilities to the United States. He also currently serves on the boards for Little Island, Sauna Aid, Grounded Solutions Network, and the San Antonio Museum of Art.

When I was a little kid in NYC in the 80s, I looked up at the hulking tracks and thought “what the hell is that doing in the middle of the city?!” Many adults thought the same thing.

Robbie and Josh looked at the tracks and thought “we should really do something cool with that instead of tearing it down.”

In 2009 the first section of the high line opened to the public. In 2019 and 2023 new sections were completed.

Against all odds, “two neighborhood nobodies” (as one writer described them!) created a coalition, learned to raise money and garner the favorable attention of local politicians, and persisted and succeeded. The park is maintained, operated, and programmed by Friends of the High Line in partnership with the NYC Department of Parks & Recreation and is run on donations.

There are many amazing angles to the story of the Highline:

Maybe you DON’T need a coherent or complete Vision or Mission?!

Robbie makes it clear that they didn’t even have a clear vision or strategic plan for some time…just the idea that the elevated line was worth saving and doing something with…they discovered what they wanted to create along the way. He actually credits the vagueness of the mission with creating a “big tent” that attracted more people to the organization.

From a conventional dream to something better than anyone could imagine

One surprising insight is that the property owners had a rather conventional dream - tear the elevated tracks down so they could build bigger. Turning the High Line into a park seemed like a low-value, impossible pipedream - sex workers and drug users congregated under the overpasses, after all! But the High Line’s millions of visitors have transformed the value of the area far beyond the addition of a few extra square feet.

The High Line as a symbol for dreamers of impossible dreams

One of Robbie’s greatest points of pride is that the High Line now stands as a symbol to many “crazy dreamers” who find inspiration in the story of outsiders persisting and accomplishing more than they ever dreamed possible. The High Line is now a global inspiration for cities to transform unused industrial zones into dynamic public spaces. But Robbie loves the personal stories of folks who come up to him at talks, who are working on all sorts of projects and who find inspiration in Robbie and Josh’s “keep going against all odds” story.

The importance of Talking to People

Robbie talks about how he was always willing to pick up the phone and talk to anyone - the fearlessness of someone raised in sales. But the Friends of the High Line were also willing to host conversations with community groups and listen to them, and learn from them and communicate with them about why they were listening to their ideas and why, in some cases, they weren’t going to. Open lines of consistent communication made the High Line possible.

The Alchemy of the Co-Founder Relationship

In this conversation, Robbie is bracingly reflective and shines a sometimes harsh light on himself. Here at the 15th anniversary of the opening of the Highline and the 25th anniversary of the start of the project, the founding of the Friends of the High Line, Robbie looks back and is refreshingly honest about his own challenges and shortcomings, as well as missed opportunities along the way to do things differently.

What was truly surprising to me in this conversation is that Robbie was so open about his challenges as a co-founder, and is so open-eyed about how essential this most intimate of relationships can be…and how much he and Josh were willing to invest (in time, energy and resources) in that relationship to keep it intact, functional and flourishing.

The Energy and Anxiety of Creation

Robbie suggests that it is common for creative people (which includes entrepreneurs, and anyone that starts anything) to have a drive to accomplish their dream - that is what keeps them going… but that there is often “an undercurrent of anxiety”. Meditation helped Robbie reclaim a higher level of happiness as the High Line approached realization, but it took him years to undo the deep grooves anxiety etched in his psyche. It's a worthwhile lesson for anyone listening out there who's creating something, start taking care of yourself sooner rather than later.

You can follow Robbie on Instagram at thehighlineguy and stay in the loop on Therme’s projects at https://www.thermegroup.com/.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

https://www.thermegroup.com/

https://www.instagram.com/thehighlineguy

Therme post (2021) 

Robbie’s Book: The Highline:The Inside Story

https://www.thehighline.org/history/

Early documents from the highline: Reclaiming The High Line: A Project Of The Design Trust For Public Space With Friends Of The High Line (2002)

Talks:

Rail Yards Talks 2011

"High Line: The Inside Story of New York City's Park in the Sky" - Richard Hammond

https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_hammond_building_a_park_in_the_sky

I’m excited to share my conversation with Kevin Bethune, a multidisciplinary design executive, entrepreneur, best-selling author and keynote speaker based in Redondo Beach, California. He’s been a VP of Strategic design at BCG Digital, A global process product manager at Nike and a Nuclear Engineer at Westinghouse. He currently leads his own firm, https://dreamsdesignandlife.com/

One of his key ideas is “Open your aperture.” -ie, shifting the lens that you are looking at a problem from or through. Design and Design Thinking has so many tools to help us do just that, and find creative approaches to our biggest challenges.

In our conversation, we discussed the importance of embracing creative approaches (since our habitual approaches most likely can’t solve them!) and the need for bold leadership to optimize for curiosity and creativity - because going with business as usual is usually a lot easier than spending time on curiosity.

It takes a willingness to slow down to optimize for curiosity in a business environment that is often so focused on quarterly capitalism.

We also highlight the lack of diversity in design and innovation, particularly in black representation, and the cognitive dissonance of claiming to serve certain communities without actually representing them - an unresolved critique of many innovation firms.

The S-Curve and the Cone of Possibility

Kevin’s book, Reimagining Design: Unlocking Strategic Innovation, is CHOCK A BLOCK with diagrams (and I love diagrams!) that will stretch your thinking, but we spent some time on one diagram in particular that combines two classic models of thinking: The cone of possibility and the s-curve.

The Cone of possibility is a cone on its side, with the tip at the present, and the sides of the cone stretching out like rays of sunshine to the right. The rays represent possible futures along the timeline. There are many versions of this diagram online. Kevin’s version calls the center of the cone the “most likely” or projected future. The cone of possibility invites us to consider widening edges - future scenarios that are plausible and even impossible or preposterous futures, not just the projected or ideal future.

Opening our aperture to consider multiple possible futures means that our plans can be more resilient, adaptable and even antifragile.

The S-curve is a visual representation of one of my favorite Shakespeare Sonnets. #15: 

When I consider everything that grows
Holds in perfection but a little moment,
That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows
Whereon the stars in secret influence comment;
When I perceive that men as plants increase,
Cheered and check'd even by the selfsame sky,
Vaunt in their youthful sap, at height decrease,
And wear their brave state out of memory;

Things are born (or emerge), they grow, mature and then fade away. Kevin’s version of the S-curve includes more detail:

1. Emergence

2. A dip - the trough of disillusionment

3. A hyper-growth phase that slows into..

4. Maturity and then…

5. Decline, or retirement. 

Kevin overlays the cone of possibility with a set of cascading s-curves, representing a host of possible trends rising and cresting as we look out into the possible futures.

As Kevin describes this diagram in our conversation, his hands are making waves of opening and closing, diverging and converging. That's what he’s seeing when he looks along the cone of possibility: all of these different trends, multiple pathways. It’s this complex, undulating space that he tries to illustrate for the teams that he works with to help them see a bigger aperture to think inside of.

These diagrams, these mental models, help redesign the conversation about strategy and innovation. We’re not designing for a single, simple, ideal future. We’re looking out at a complex landscape with multiple possible twists and turns. That is how you unlock strategic innovation - step back, widen the aperture and change the conversation.

In short - creative visualization facilitates dialogue and widens perspectives.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinbethune/

https://dreamsdesignandlife.com/

My guest today, Emily Levada, is a seasoned Chief Product & Technology Officer. Currently, she is the Chief Product Officer and Interim co-CEO at Embark Veterinary, a company dedicated to leveraging genetics to enhance the health and longevity of dogs. During her tenure, the company has achieved notable recognition, ranking as the #3 fastest-growing private company in Massachusetts and earning a spot on Forbes' list of promising venture-backed startups.

She also serves as a Board Member at JCC Greater Boston, bringing her expertise to contribute to the organization's growth and development and holds a significant role as a Member of the Customer Advisory Board at UserTesting, where she actively engages in guiding and advising the company.

Emily is also a two-time podcast guest, my first ever!  We did an episode a few years back where she shared some wonderful insights and frameworks about Trust, Communication and Psychological Safety in teams.

Emily was also gracious enough to be a guest mentor for the Innovation Leadership Accelerator cohort I co-ran with my friend Jay Melone from the product innovation consultancy New Haircut some years back. 

In this conversation, we sat down to talk about managing organizational emotions, especially negative emotions, and especially during critical junctures, like layoffs - something that many folks have been through, and many folks in the past year. I knew that Emily had some experience with this in the past and had some great thinking to share around this crucial leadership topic. 

There’s no *good* side to be on in a downsizing event - the people who are losing their jobs and income are also losing a sense of identity and need to navigate an uncertain future. But the loss of identity and the need to face an uncertain future is also true for the folks who are still with the company - both the “rank and file” and the leadership. 

Layoffs done poorly can dent a company culture.

Emily emphasized the importance of transparency in the period leading up to a layoff, as it builds trust and can mitigate negative emotions. 

On the other hand, leaders often have a desire to protect people from such difficult conversations until the last possible moment, so the whole team can focus on their day-to-day jobs.

I explored this polar tension between these two fundamental values, transparency and protection, with Emily using a tool called Polarity Mapping, developed by Barry Johnson Ph.D., the creator (and registered trademark holder!) of The Polarity Map®! You can read more about polarity mapping in my friend Stephen Andserson’s short blog post here and check out Dr. Johnson’s company, Polarity Partnerships here. IMHO, Stephen’s version of Barry’s diagram (below) is a bit clearer!

The basic idea of Polarity mapping is that often we feel pulled by two values, like:

Should we focus on Innovation or Efficiency? 

Should we prioritize Deadlines or Quality?

Growth vs. Consolidation?

Short-term Gains vs. Long-term Organic Growth?

Centralization vs. Decentralization?

(thanks for these examples, Stephen!)

In my own coaching work, I’ve found leaders can struggle to navigate conflicting parts of themselves, forming inner polar tensions that leave them feeling stuck, like: 

“I need to be flexible vs I need to be firm”

“I need to lead the conversation vs I need to let the conversation flow”

“I need to be aggressive or I have to be more passive”

“I need to listen more vs I feel the need to fix challenges”

“I want to be authentically myself vs I need to be a chameleon to get by”

And because we get pulled between them, and feel the polarity to be an unwinnable double bind of “damned if I do,” we kind of flub the balancing act. Polarity mapping asks us to be ultra-specific about the positives of both values AND to be very clear on the downsides of over-indexing on one value to the detriment of the other.

Doing a mapping like this can help us thread the needle of polarity, and look out for the early warning signs of over-indexing in one direction or another.

Below is a version of a polarity map for the tension Emily describes in our conversation, between Transparency and Protection.

Emily points out that these polarities pop up, not just at crucial moments in a business like layoffs, but in day-to-day operations, too.

Leaders can feel that Emotions are Inconvenient, but Team Emotions have real impact

Emily shares the top three negative organizational emotions she finds can deeply impact a team’s ability to learn (ie, be willing to experiment), be creative (ie, being able to innovate) and be fundamentally effective:

Anxiety (Fear)
Boredom
Apathy

Fear, anxiety, and boredom are detrimental to creativity and productivity in knowledge work. Leaders need to address these emotions and create an environment that fosters engagement and challenge - and ultimately, create a learning organization.

“People cannot do creative knowledge work when they feel fear and anxiety and boredom. Those things are just incompatible.”

Emily suggests that well-run one-on-one meetings are crucial for understanding how team members are feeling and detecting signs of overwhelm, underwhelm, or “whelm” in their job. One-on-ones can help build a foundation of trust and safety, on which we can build honest and productive conversations.

Emily also shares some straightforward approaches for shifting these key negative emotions:

Anxiety: focus on building psychological safety for teams experiencing anxiety, and provide more transparency and context.
Boredom: create relevant challenges
Apathy: create accountability and challenge for teams experiencing apathy

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Trust, Communication, and Psychological Safety with Emily Levada

The Joys of Polarity Mapping, by Stephen Anderson

Polarity Partnerships

 

My guest today is Jason Knight, the creator, host, producer, editor and promoter of the One Knight in Product podcast, a B2B SaaS product consultant, and fractional Chief Product Officer for companies that have gotten to product market fit and need help scaling their product team. Jason is also the founder of My Mentor Path, an inclusive, accessible and cloud-based mentorship service. 

Sandra Monteiro, a Product Manager at SAGE Publishing and a mentee of Jason’s, joined us halfway through to share her own experiences with mentoring, how she found her way to working with Jason as a mentor and what some of her learnings and insights from working with Jason as a mentor have been. She also shares her thoughts on what mentees should be thinking about as they search for and work with mentors.

We explored Jason’s mentorship journey and why mentorship matters to him, the challenges of Industrializing mentorship pairing and productizing the matching of the lopsided mentorship marketplace.

We also touch on how to measure the impact of the work and the subtle and important difference between Mentoring and Coaching. Jason suggests that many people who say they want coaching really want mentoring from someone who has “been there and done that”…and that great mentoring leverages coaching mindsets and skills in a practice he affectionately calls “centering”.

Some fundamental questions we explored were the differences and relative merits of FORMAL vs INFORMAL mentorship as well as working with someone INTERNAL vs EXTERNAL to your Organization

One of the big insights Sandra shared was shifting her expectations on the nature of the mentoring relationship from one centered around SOLVING vs conversations centered around TOOLS (ie, being offered relevant examples, learning materials and frameworks, holding space for emotional distance, and being offered broader context for challenges).

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Sandra Monteiro

Jason Knight

https://www.oneknightinproduct.com/bio/

https://www.oneknightconsulting.com/

My conversation on Unapologetic Eating and Living with Alissa Rumsey is here

It’s not every day that a patient-doctor relationship turns into a Techstars-Funded medical innovation startup. In this episode I sit down with Dr. Onyinye Balogun and Eve McDavid, the co-founders of Mission-Driven Tech, a women's health venture in collaboration with Weill Cornell Medicine dedicated to the transformation of cervical cancer care with modern technology.

Onyi, as her friends call her, is the CMO of Mission Driven Tech and also an Assistant Professor of Radiation Oncology at Weill Cornell Medicine specializing in the treatment of breast and gynecologic malignancies and does research into improving cancer care in low and middle income countries.

Eve, the CEO, is a former Google executive who is also a Stage IIB Cervical Cancer survivor. Eve and Onyi met during the pandemic, when Eve was undergoing cancer treatment under Onyi’s care.

I heard Eve and Onyi’s presentation at the 2023 Techstars Demo day in New York and was stunned by the fundamental disparities in historical improvement in gynecological cancer outcomes - as they point out in this conversation, in recent years, Prostate cancer treatment has achieved a nearly 100% five year survival rate. In the same period, cervical and uterine cancer mortality has gotten worse, while cancer treatment for all other cancers has improved exponentially. Their company exists to change that story.

Co-Founder Communication Insights

This conversation is one of a series on co-founder communication. Check out my interviews with the co-founders of online gaming start-up Artie on Pivoting while staying sane (the secret - have a coach and a therapist!), a conversation with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create, on navigating Paired Creativity, and this interview with the co-founders of collaboration tool Range, Jennifer Dennard and Dan Pupius, on the keys to healthy conflict. One key that Beth Bayouth and Mario Fedelin, the COO and CEO (respectively) of Changeist, a non-profit organization dedicated to youth empowerment, discussed was the importance of co-founders sharing how they are really doing so that they can be sure to not fall apart at the same time, a sentiment that Eve and Onyi echoed.

I also discussed the idea of “prototyping partnerships” with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist - and they helped me see that the healthiest companies have partners that have worked together in some capacity - and indeed, in this interview, Onyi and Eve called Eve’s cancer treatment their “first collaboration”.

Know yourself and each other

The start of a startup journey can be optimistic, so we explore what they have learned about each other that has helped them to better communicate and collaborate together since they started the project.

Accelerators can’t do it all for you

Eve and Onyi share how the accelerators can help with structure, mentorship, capital and community, but that ultimately you need to have something worth accelerating - a key customer insight or a core technology - both of which Mission-Driven Tech has!

Have multiple modes and frequencies of communication

Eve and Onyi have a weekly meeting just focused on their flagship product, the Blossom device, and another meeting weekly for other issues, and to simply connect. Meanwhile, they have a Whatsapp thread that enables them to constantly stay connected and in touch with each other. Balancing always-on connectivity and scheduled connectivity is key.

A partnership is a marriage and reflective listening is key!

Onyi shared their perspective that being in a co-founder relationship is like marriage, and that communication is key for any marriage to work. As she says, “The future of this company rests partly in how well we're able to communicate. So we tell each other the good, the bad and the ugly.” She shared their simple and effective approach to communication - making specific time for it, and using active listening intentionally:

“I hear what you're saying, I reflect it back to you. You hear what I'm saying and you reflect it back to me.”

Know who your real audience is

We discuss user-driven product development, which Eve and Onyi, as a former patient and doctor, are a unique example of…but we also discuss how in their current stage, investors are their actual “buyers”. Onyi discussed how she’s developed a keen sense of “push vs pull” when they are making their investment pitch - some investors just get the commitment required to make a startup like this successful, and those people are their real audience. It’s not about convincing the wrong people, it’s about finding the right people.

Balance Now and Next

Every startup needs to balance managing their current challenges and opportunities with putting energy into strategic vision and planning. Eve points out that this is a particular challenge for medical and device companies - the rate of change can be slow, due to fundamentals of the problem space. So, there needs to be more patience and intention put into planning and hypothesis testing. As Eve pointed out, There is immense pressure to achieve immediate results, but real impact takes time.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

https://missiondriventech.com/

LinkedIn:

Onyi: https://www.linkedin.com/in/onyinye-balogun-md-ms-22b57283/

Eve: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evemcdavid/

David Hoffman built and sold big-data and data analytics company Next Big Sound to Pandora in 2015. He's now building Beam, which helps people create shoppable mood boards for DTC brands.

David reflects on his experience with mentorship and the long arc of the conversation that is being a co-founder and being in community. We unpack the Techstars motto "give first" and discuss the power of the Techstars community and the importance of community relationships in entrepreneurship.

We talk through the complex evolution that is founding and scaling a startup, his experience doing just that with Next Big Sound, and the challenges of becoming a leader inside a growing company.

One challenge is always scaling culture as a company scales, and David outlines some of the routines and structures that helped in defining his startup's culture. David also shares some insights on the post-startup-sale emotional roller coaster and the decision to build another company. Some of my other favorite insights from David:

• Living the “Give First” motto requires approaching everything with curiosity.

• “Grown ups” is a construct: When it is your idea and your company, you can make the decisions you need to make.

• Your Culture is made of your routines, whether it’s Friday bagels or snap-clapping after people share wins.

• Your MVP product can be much, much more simple than you think if it creates value for your customers.

David’s nuanced reflections are a gift, and I’m so glad he sat down for this conversation.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Beam

My guests today, Ryan Horrigan and Armando Kirwin, bonded over their mutual fascination with the future of entertainment and their desire to do something innovative, which led to the creation of their current company, Artie. We talk about pivots and micro pivots and staying sane through the million tiny conversations Cofounders need to navigate.

Ryan, the CEO, and Armando, President and co-founder of Artie have a pretty radical vision for the future of social media— namely, to make TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and other social media apps the gaming consoles of the future.

Before co-founding Artie, Ryan served as Chief Content Officer of the Comcast-backed VR & AR startup Felix & Paul Studios. He oversaw the development and production of feature films, including Academy Award Best Picture Winner “12 Years A Slave.” at Fox/New Regency, and is a two-time Emmy Award winner for immersive entertainment projects he produced with President Barack Obama and NASA, as well as a Peabody Award winner.

Armando has been in the VFX world for over fifteen years, working with numerous award-winning directors, including two-time Academy Award nominee Lucy Walker,  Sundance Grand Jury prize nominee Sandy Smolan on The Click Effect, which was nominated for an Emmy; and Imraan Ismail on The Displaced, which won the Grand Prix at Cannes. He also produced Take Flight, starring Benicio del Toro, Michael Fassbender, and Charlize Theron. His most recent VR film, Nothing is Safe (2022), was an official selection of the Cannes Marché du Film.

While movies are a wonderful industry, they both saw the power and potential of gaming as a storytelling platform - and a financial juggernaut. If you didn’t know: According to a report by SuperData Research, the global gaming market was valued at $159.3 billion in 2020. This includes revenue from console games, PC games, mobile games, and esports. Let’s put that into perspective: the music industry was valued at $19.1 billion in 2020, and the movie industry at $41.7 billion. That means the gaming industry is more than three times the size of the music industry and almost four times the size of the movie industry.

TikTok used to be where people just watched videos (as of this writing, TikTok and Netflix are nearly tied for eyeball-hours). Now, hundreds of thousands of people are playing games on TikTok thanks to Artie and the technology breakthroughs that make streaming app-quality games from within social media apps possible.

But how did they get here? Through a million micro conversations about data, signals, stakeholders and what it all means. Artie is where are are today not because of one big pivot, but many, many micro-pivots over the course of years.

Pivots impact the team - who you needed on staff  when you were focused on one path isn’t always who you need when you’ve decided to shift directions. Communication between departments and involving the team more is important - which means being intentional about regular check-ins and interdepartmental communication, but eventually, it comes down to the co-founder conversation - owning the choices that need to be made and moving forward, all while making sure you stay healthy and sane.

Pivots vs Shaping Clay

I loved this metaphor from Ryan, where he suggested that, from the outside, to investors, bloggers and customers, a company may have pivoted once, or a few times. From the inside, there are daily conversations, where the product is being shaped like clay, remade, refocused, almost constantly.

“Listen to your body, have a Coach and a Therapist”

This was one of my favorite insights from this conversation. It’s not often that men talk openly about mental health and needing support. Ryan and Armando both have a coach (although they meet with that coach separately) and Armando advocated for having a therapist, while Ryan discussed how they got much much more intentional about listening to their bodies and taking down time. Armando suggests that therapy focuses on self-awareness, learning about yourself and your patterns, while his coaching focuses on future outcomes and goals.

“You have to care deeply about your people, but at the same time, you can't care about what they think of you”

Ryan quotes what he describes as a harsh-sounding notion from  Dick Costello when he was at Twitter: In Ryan’s experience, when you make a tough decision, you can't worry about everyone's collective feelings (even though you DO care about them as people and teammates). You have to make the decision that you, as the leader, believe needs to be made.

As a founder, you have to make and own tough decisions.

Ryan points out that, at the end of the day, you can't ignore tough decisions. You can’t have someone else do it for you. He suggests that while these moments are hard, it’s helpful to focus on the people who are still with you and the ultimate goals you’re trying to achieve.

Links

https://www.artie.com/

I am excited to share my conversation with Leah Smart, who I had the pleasure of meeting at the Culture Summit where we were both giving main stage talks. Leah is brilliant! She’s all about helping people become the authors of their lives, which she does through her work on the LinkedIn Editorial team and hosting her LinkedIn podcast, In the Arena with Leah Smart, which is out every week wherever you find your podcasts.

She loves facilitating human development work for leadership teams through coaching and workshops and sharing science-backed actionable concepts and strategies to transform your life, your work, and your relationship to everyone around you. 

Today we talk about how she approaches designing her conversations with guests as a dance, how she molds her conversations with herself through personal mantras, and her perspectives on the power of intention.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

https://www.leahsmart.co/

I am excited to share my conversation with AJ Thomas, who I had the pleasure of meeting at the Culture Summit where we were both giving talks. AJ was sharing her perspectives on being a Chaos Pilot at Google’s Moonshot Factory, Called “X”. At the time of this conversation, she’s been with Google for nearly four years, starting as Head of People. 

AJ is also A CxO in Residence at A.Team AND an Advisor at Magic Eden and SemperVirens Capital. She is also an Executive coach on the side. 

She’s got a full calendar.

X, A.Team, CxO. This is starting to sound like the credit roll on Sesame Street! That is a lot of letters, but we’ll add a few more, like T, I and Z.

You may have heard of being T-shaped, as in having breadth of knowledge in general and having depth in one particular area…versus being “I” shaped - having just depth, but no breadth. Breadth is important in any position, because having some breadth means you can more readily engage a broad swath of people in productive dialog, partially because you “get” their inside language enough to collaborate with them. This breadth of collaborative potential is especially important for Leaders.

AJ is a fan of being a Z-shaped-leader, which for her means having depth across many different areas, over time, and the ability to connect the dots between them. But while being able to connect the dots, to scan the horizon for innovation and emergent opportunities, to be able to see an Audacious and almost-impossible future AND communicate that vision to others is a powerful leadership skill, AJ sees Humility as an equally powerful leadership value. This puts AJ in excellent company with Dr. Marilyn Gist, PhD, Professor Emerita of Executive Programs at the Center of Leadership Formation at Seattle University, author of "The Extraordinary Power of Leader Humility," and a past guest on this podcast! Check out our conversation here where Dr. Gist shares her Six Keys to Leadership Humility.

I love AJ’s idea of keeping Audacity and Humility in dynamic tension - staying “Humbacious”! That balance, the ability to “sprinkle” one quality or another into a conversation, shows up as tremendously powerful and generative in AJ’s leadership and coaching work. Audacity holds space for people to explore potential - the biggest vision and possibility. And Humility drives us to assume that we might be wrong and to leverage the mind of a scientist to de-risk the road ahead with powerful questions and intentional experiments.

Enjoy this powerful deep dive into these ideas and a lot more.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

https://www.couragetakesflight.com/

www.itsAJthomas.com

In this episode I talk with my friend Chris Murchison, who is a coach, a facilitator and a talented artist, too!

We talk about his Four principles of Communities of Practice and how building a positive culture within an organization requires, essentially, creating a community of practice. Your team, your organization, is already practicing something…and that practice is either mindful and intentional, or it’s habitual and haphazard. 

Communities of practice are groups of people who share a passion for something they do and so, have a shared purpose or goal for learning how to do it better…and so, they interact regularly with the intention of continuous improvement of that thing.

An example of intentional practice that Chris shares in the opening quote is what he calls a “Sunset Meeting”, a special, extended, and deeper version of a Retrospective, that asks, not just how did the work go, but how did we do? Stopping to look back and look forward means that the space for continuous improvement is being created.

But without fostering deep psychological safety for people to say what needs to be said, a leader and a team can never get the continuous relevant learning they need from the conversation. How to lead that kind of safety is a whole other conversation, but Chris and I do unpack some of the facilitation skills leaders need to master in order to be able to host these types of continuous improvement conversations.

Communities of practice require ongoing conversations and intentional practices. Chris shares four key principles to help you architect an effective community of practice for your own context:

1. Meaningful connection (In order to, as Chris says, plant the seeds of trust and safety)

2. Relevant learning (So people want to be full there AND so the organization benefits)

3. Purposeful practice (so we’re focused on what matters most)

4. Sharing and reflection (slowing down to notice and share what we’re each practicing and learning)

Make sure to check out the links and show notes which include Chris’ wonderful Community of Practice Guide and his more general Community Principles & Practices.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Chris's Website

Community of Practice Guide

Community Principles & Practices

Today, I sit down for a conversation with *my coach* Robert Ellis, about his new book, Coaching From Essence.

Robert has been described as “one of Silicon Valley’s best-kept secrets” and has been coaching leaders at startups, mid-stage companies, Fortune 500 giants, and nonprofits for over 30 years. Robert has taught leadership and coached entrepreneurs at Singularity University and developed Level UP, the leadership curriculum for the Global Startup Program, and taught leadership courses at Stanford University. We met through radical serendipity and I’m grateful for the generosity and grace Robert has coached me with. All of his teaching materials are now publicly available on his free circle community and on youtube.

Robert’s book is like sitting in a fireside chat with Robert, absorbing his profoundly wise and profoundly simple approaches to coaching. Sometimes, a new idea can feel so true that it lands like common sense - all the pieces fitting together so seamlessly and effortlessly. Roberts’ metaphors, stories and models hit like that - like powerful truths you knew all along.

Robert’s visual models help ground a coaching conversation, make it easy to follow along, and make the conversation incredibly sticky. And literally every time I’ve drawn one of these diagrams for a client, it lands with them and becomes a new metaphor for thinking about their challenge and their path forward.

This book isn’t just for coaches who want a more effortless and human approach to doing this work, it’s for anyone who wants to be deeply helpful to their clients, their teams, their organization, and to lead conversations in a more impactful way.

Coaching from Essence is based on the radical idea that everyone has an essence, and that, when we work from it, we can effortlessly create value and impact. Coaching from essence works both ways - the coach coaches from *their* essence, their natural approach…and the coachee is coached to work from their *own* essence - their own natural approach. We’re not telling people how to be. We are here to help them remove the obstacles that get in the way of them finding their own way.

According to Bill Gates, everyone needs a coach. 

I would flip this suggestion on its head and say that at some point in everyone’s lives, accessing a Coaching from Essence mindset can be a generous, powerful and transformative way to help someone in our lives.

Some of us choose to make coaching our life's work, but Coaching from Essence is a powerful, generous and transformative approach to helping people that everyone can (and should?) access at the right moment for the right person. 

Robert Ellis is the embodiment of what he teaches - he is a generous, powerful and transformative coach who I’ve had the pleasure of working under for several years. I’m so glad this book is finally out in the world so that everyone can have the experience of working with him.

Links

https://coachingfromessence.com/

https://www.futurosity.com/

Coaching from Essence, by Robert Ellis

Art has the power to change and even lead the conversation, to spark curiosity and fuel real engagement.

But what comes first in a powerful creative project? 
The idea and the message?
The tools and the talent?
Or The Funding, that can make or break it all?

My guest today is Benjamin Von Wong, who creates art on a grand scale that goes beyond awe.

He is an Artist focused on amplifying positive impact. He does that both in the process of how he creates his art, through community, and in the images it produces, finding visual metaphors that stick with people, long after they’ve seen the work.

His mission is to help make positive impact unforgettable. For the last seven years, Von Wong and his team, under the banner of “Unforgettable Labs” have generated over a billion organic views on topics like Ocean Plastics, Fast Fashion, and Electronic Waste for organizations like Dell, Greenpeace, Nike, Starbucks and Kiehl's.

In this opening quote you can hear him wrangle with the dance between art and marketing, and his new mission to find ways to create sustainable funding streams that allow him to create message-shaping art in times and places where the world is gathered to solve some of our most pressing challenges. 

It’s a move that can make his work more deeply sustainable - for himself and for his team. Von Wong’s The Unforgettable Project leverages the collective power of philanthropy to help build broader campaigns around environmentally net-positive innovations worth spotlighting - instead of waiting for corporations that are seeking eyeballs and leveraging their funding for good, he’s building a funding source that actively seeks the next project that needs to go viral.

Some of his notable work includes the Giant Plastic Tap which used trash from the slums of Kibera, in Nairobi, Kenya, to demand that corporations #TurnOffThePlasticTap. The Giant Tap was displayed prominently when 193 different countries and 1,500 delegates came together at UNEA 5.2 in 2022 to discuss what was then termed the “Paris Agreement For Plastics” and was eventually used in the United Nations official Plastics Report while raising over $100,000 for the Human Needs Project.

Recently he installed a grand sculpture at the Highline in New York City in collaboration with Kiehl’s to raise awareness and drive adoption of refillable products in the beauty world. Von Wong, along with a large community of volunteers, collected and assembled 2 tons of plastic bottles into a “single-use hydra”, seen by nearly 300-thousand visitors and close to 3 million social impressions for their message of #DontRebuyJustRefill…but as he points out in this conversation, most of the people on the High Line don’t have the leverage to change the system - which is why he seeks to place his epic art in places where the system changers meet.

I learned about Benjamin's work through his wonderful talk at Creative Mornings (a global, IRL community of creatives that hosts monthly talks all around the world). His presentation spoke to some beautiful topics - like the importance of nurturing the conditions of success (like inner narratives and cultivating community) vs chasing success, and the notion of sifting your feelings from reality when it comes to deciding what is enough - personally, financially, and in the work - ie, is my work having enough impact? Von Wong shared the ways in which he’s rewriting his inner narrative to balance his personhood and his purpose or impact. I found the talk profoundly moving and beautiful and highly recommend watching it.

In this conversation, you’ll find:

Ruminations on Creationships - relationships that exist to co-create something wonderful together (4:09)

The Importance of an Interface or a Container to foster Conversation (7:47)

Benjamin’s perspectives on going to where the conversations are already happening to have the deepest impacts. This is certainly true for the large scale work that he creates, but it is also true for anyone looking to change a big conversation. Making people come to you vs going to them means the activation energy of change is that much lower. (13:18)

Benjamin’s thoughts on Community Building and Co-creating art with a community (16:43)

The polarity Benjamin is threading right now: Balancing Speeding Up (to do more work and have more impact) and Slowing Down (in order to build deeper creationships) (26:21)

The difference between an Audience and a Community (32:44)

The power of creating a word that summarizes and defines an idea that people flock to (which we might term the Rumpelstiltskin or Le Guin Rule (as she famously wrote in A Wizard of Earthsea “To weave the magic of a thing, you see, one must find its true name out.” (33:39)

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

https://www.vonwong.com/

unforgettablelabs.com 

https://www.thevonwong.com/

How I made plastic pollution more shareable with a Mermaid and 10000 plastic bottles - 3/3

https://creativemornings.com/

Benjamin Von Wong Featuring Possibly Poet: "Is activism sustainable?"

I first met Avantika Daing, a General Partner & Managing Partner at Plum Alley Investments (and Tedx Speaker!) while she was onstage at an Entrepreneurs Roundtable Accelerator event. She was there to share a bit about Plum Alley’s Investment thesis as well as unpack six pitches live from early-stage companies.

Let’s level set a bit so you understand Avantika’s and Plum Alley’s mission, which revolves around an important number that hasn’t moved much in years, despite a lot of effort - 2%. 

According to Pitchbook, in 2022, companies founded solely by women garnered just 2% of the total capital invested in VC-backed startups in the United States. Plum Alley only funds gender-diverse companies and works to create an ecosystem to help them not just get funded, but to grow and succeed. That’s one of the reasons I wanted to bring Avantika on, to share some of her ways of thinking strategically about funding as an investor, how Plum Alley is working to create a more sustainable funding ecosystem for diverse founding teams, and how she coaches founders to be more strategic about funding, too.

Watching Avantika on stage peel back the layers of the onion (one of her favorite metaphors!) on a company’s story in conversation with a founder and work to understand the company’s potential was fascinating - it’s a tremendous act of intellectual rigor and curiosity. Her questions also reminded me that founders can make an investor’s job a lot easier through more powerful and intentional storytelling.

Another powerful metaphor that Avantika came back to in a number of pitches was the idea of a Basecamp.

In other words, Avantika, as a funder, wants to know: Is your company building a core technology or defensible market position (a basecamp) that will provide you with multiple paths to success? 

Avantika acknowledged that a “single story” about how your company will “win” or “summit the mountain” is powerful, but she was clear that she prefers companies that are creating a powerful “basecamp”...why? Because:

🏒A “many shots on goal” strategy can help create longevity and increase options for success.

I’m so grateful that she was willing to have a longer conversation with me on the record to explain her ideals about storytelling and the basecamp-summit metaphor.

She also helped peel back some layers on another idea she loves to coach founders on: “Dressing their cap table” for sustainable success from seed to IPO and well beyond - since capital needs don’t stop at IPO.

I love how Avantika’s metaphors shift,  refocus and redesign the conversation about pitching, funding and sustainable success for startups.

Enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Plum Alley

Avantika's Tedx Talk: There is No Balance. There is Juggling

Daniel’s LI post on Avantika’s Entrepreur’s Roundtable Session, highlighting key questions and perspectives from Avantika, including the “base camp/summit” metaphor.

Today my conversation partner is Matt LeMay! Matt is an internationally recognized product leader, author, and consultant. He is the author of Agile for Everybody (O’Reilly Media, 2018) and Product Management in Practice (Second Edition O'Reilly Media, 2022), and has helped build and scale product management practices at companies ranging from early-stage startups to Fortune 500 enterprises. 

Matt and I met at UX Lisbon last year where he gave a talk that included him describing his extremely actionable recipe for team agility: the One Page / One Hour Pledge, a powerful commitment to minimize busywork and maximize collaboration that has been adopted by individuals and teams at Amazon, Walmart, CNN, and more. 

I was excited to bring Matt into a conversation about this pledge, because I know how easy it is to get caught in a rabbit-hole of perfectionism before sharing my work with others. Teams can work more fluidly if we reduce the cycle time between solo work and team work.

Matt is an advocate for the power of focus, subtraction and feedback loops over perfection - I mean, would you rather ride a bike you can only aim once or one that you get to steer continuously?

I never dreamed I’d get to have a podcast conversation that includes references to Alan Watts and the power of Ego Death to accelerate your team’s success and ultimately, one’s own success…but glad that we are! 

Matt and unpack how TIMEBOXING (ie, Tight-and-almost-thoughtless constraints ) helps shift the relationship between thought and action in teams and organizations…and can help move the conversation forward.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Matt's website

Product Management in Practice

https://www.onepageonehour.com/

Matt’s talk at UX Brighton on “You Don’t Get anyone to do Anything”

“When we attempt to exercise power or control over someone else, we cannot avoid giving that person the very same power or control over us” Alan Watts

Alan Watts “The wisdom of Insecurity

In 2019 My friend Philip invited me to a 2-hour cocktail party at his tiny apartment in the Lower East side. True to his word, the gathering, which was on a Tuesday night, started at 7 PM sharp, and at 9 PM he kicked us out onto Orchard Street to enjoy the rest of our night and/or to get to bed on time (since it was a weeknight, after all!)

I met a whole bunch of awesome people, and if I’m honest, I thought Phil was super cool for bringing such a lovely group of people together. The food and drinks were nothing to write home about, but no one cared. Phil stopped the party two or three times to get us to circle up and introduce ourselves and respond to an icebreaker prompt. It was pretty fun.

He mentioned during the party that he was following an early draft agenda, a recipe if you will, for such gatherings, that was being developed by his friend Nick Gray, who I knew of through other friends. Nick had started a company called Museum Hack that had blown up - in the good sense. They were leading creative tours in Museums around the city, so I guessed this guy Nick knew a thing or two about getting people together.

Cut to 2022 when Nick Gray’s book “The Two Hour Cocktail Party: How to Build Big Relationships with small gatherings” came out. Here it was, four years later! I was fascinated to talk to Nick because I thought “How much could there be to this? Isn’t it all in the title!?” How much could the form have evolved over 4 years of prototyping and testing?! 

I’ll tell you folks…this is a polished gem of a book.

If you’ve followed my work, you know that I’m a bit of a nerd when it comes to gathering/facilitation/conversation design. I love card decks about it, books, diagrams, narrative metaphors to fuel creative innovation in gathering science for skilled facilitators to bring diverse stakeholders together to tackle wicked problems. I have coached leaders on this skill, all over the world. I hosted many, many cohorts of my 3-month Masterclass on Facilitation that people lovingly described as “drinking from a firehose” of facilitation while somehow being spacious and deeply mindful of how we gather. Managing complex gatherings is a crucial skill!

Companies that can’t come together to discuss and decide on actions for their biggest challenges will not survive! And I love these types of gatherings - they are never the same, they have to be absolutely customized, and deeply considered. 

Nick, on the other hand, has designed the “CheckList Manifesto”, the “Design Sprint” or the “Joy of Cooking”...not for any and all types of gatherings - but for one, single, Life-changing, surprisingly powerful gathering - a 2-hour, midweek cocktail party.

Nick’s book is designed with absolute beginners, or those hesitant or nervous to lead gatherings in mind…but masters of gathering will be pulled in too…I was.

Nick designed this insanely in-depth book to cover everything from snacks to drinks to how to write an invitation to…everything. Where to put name tags. How big those tags should be. You get the idea.

While I am a nerd in the sense of being an omnivorous gathering nerd, Nick is an obsessive-compulsive nerd of this one form…and for good reason.

Nick believes, and I now do, too, that if more people felt more comfortable with having more gatherings we would all be more connected. The midweek 2-hour cocktail party just might save the world.

You can get the gist of the form from this conversation (I mean, even from the title!), but if you’re a gathering nerd like me, you'll absolutely enjoy Nick’s insanely thorough guide, which I found myself flipping through regularly as my wife and I prototyped our own first midweek,  2-hour cocktail party, which we titled a “Serendipity Salon”. 

I think we all need more serendipity in our lives, and that’s why I loved the opening quote I pulled from my conversation with Nick - the ability to take a short conversation with someone and turn it into a deeper one, to create a space where your old and new friends can connect with each other…only good things can happen from creating more of that type of serendipity in our lives. My wife and I have hosted two parties like this already and, as Nick has advised, we have our next one in the books! I hope you will, too.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Nick's website

The 2-hour Cocktail Party

Today I sit down with my friend Barry O'Reilly, who’s a co-author of the bestselling book “Lean Enterprise” and author of “Unlearn: How to Let go of past success to achieve extraordinary results”. He’s also the host of the Unlearn podcast. He’s also the co-founder of Nobody Studios, a global and asynchronous Venture Studio in the middle of raising a crowd-funding round (500K so far!) on Republic where anyone (including me!) can be part of their mission to fund 100 companies in five years.

As part of my ongoing series about co-founder relationships, I wanted to bring Barry on to unpack how he and his co-founder connected and decided to make this project happen, how they cross-pollinate insights from venture to venture and how they use a platform-centric approach to create synergies among their portfolio companies.

Along the way, we explore how Barry has learned to leverage serendipity and intentional connection to build his ideal life and lots of insights about how to run remote-first!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Back Nobody Studios on Republic

Learn about all things Barry here

In this conversation, I sat down with Beth Bayouth and Mario Fedelin, the COO and CEO (respectively) of Changeist, a non-profit organization dedicated to youth empowerment. They are building a community of young people that utilize their personal agency to create a more just society. 

Changeist’s programs help 11-26 year olds learn a common civic language, engage in dialogue, and build community to investigate local and global social justice issues. Participants also work with other local community-based organizations to implement local solutions to local problems.

Together, Mario and Beth explore how they met, built a relationship and decided to work on this project together…and how they continue to manage themselves and each other in the entrepreneurship journey. 

A few insights we’ll unpack about conscious co-founder relationships:

• The key to a great co-founder relationship is that both of you do not fall apart at the same time!
• Fighting Well and how Cofounder Intimacy can help: With cofounder intimacy, there is an understanding that often there’s something else behind a conflict or a mood. Because when you're close, you tend to know about what’s going on or that it’s safe to ask.
• Knowing yourself and your skills
• The Power of working with someone with a Different Skill Set but Similar Values 

On Knowing yourself and your skills, and finding compliments on your core team: 

A great leadership team requires Comfort with yourself and your skills and Respect for the skills of others... and it takes Balance - but Balance of what?!

On a leadership team you need:

+ Architects and Visionaries

+ Multipliers - someone who brings something you do not have to the table, who is also committed to the vision and the journey

Another way to think about this is that you need:

+ A Balance of Openers and Closers on the team.

This is the essence of conscious collaboration - knowing if you are more comfortable in a generative or divergent mode, ie, opening, or are more natural in the “Synthesizer” role - organizing, closing, or planning towards action. Mario owns his limitations as a “closer” and intentionally chose Beth as a COO for her natural “shark” skills - her ability to move things forward with clarity.

Mario and Beth also talked about their balanced styles in “Speeding up”  and “Slowing Down” creative conversations - Beth will pump the brakes and ground ideas in reality when the time is right. Feeling that balance between creativity and clarity, speed and thoughtfully slowing things down, is the essence of conscious creativity and conscious collaboration…being comfortable with both opening and closing modes is critical, but collaborating with others who complement your natural approaches is powerful.

Be sure to check out my other co-founder conversations. I discussed building an Integrity Culture with the co-founders of Huddle, Michale Saloio and Stephanie Golik, and investigated prototyping partnerships with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist. (Which Mario and Beth absolutely did, as well!) 

I also sat down with Jennifer Dennard and Dan Pupius, the co-founders of Range to unpack Healthy Conflict in Cofounder relationships. Conflict and collisions will inevitably happen in relationships, so you might as well learn to lean into it!

You may also enjoy my interview with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create, where we unpack how they managed their working relationship and discuss Paired creativity, which is totally a thing!

And if you really want to dive deep into the idea of being a conscious co-founder, make sure to check out my conversation with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Changeist

On Healthy Conflict: https://theconversationfactory.com/podcast/managing-healthy-conflict-co-founder-conversations

In this conversation I talk with Jennifer Dennard and Dan Pupius, the co-founders of Range, software that helps teams be more connected, focused, and productive no matter where they’re working. Global teams at Twitter, New Relic, CircleCI, and more keep their teams in sync and connected with Range.

Jen is the co-founder and COO. Prior to founding Range, Jen led Medium’s organizational development team. Jen has partnered and consulted with startups and multinational corporations on empowering autonomous and distributed teamwork. She lives in Colorado with her two cats and husband.

Dan is co-founder and CEO of Range. Prior to Range, Dan was Head of Engineering at the publishing platform Medium. And before that he was a Staff Software engineer at Google, where he worked on Gmail, Google+, and a variety of frontend infrastructure.

He has an MA in Industrial Design from Sheffield Hallam University and a BSc in Artificial Intelligence from the University of Manchester. In past lives he raced snowboards, jumped out of planes, and lived in the jungle.

This is a fairly meta conversation (in the old sense of the word!) since we talked about how Dan and Jen structure their relationship and how they built their company…which is a company that builds software that structures relationships - specifically, effective teams.

As Dan outlines, “Human behavior requires structure to facilitate it…in an organization, software provides a lot of architecture, which shapes our behavior, but we're (often) not intentional about that software. The whole theory of Range was… how can we build software that acts as architecture that shapes the behaviors that we believe to be present in effective teams?”

My book Good Talk is built around the idea of a Conversation OS, or Operating System. 

One element of the Conversation Operating System is error and repair. As Jen says in the opening quote, conflict and collisions will inevitably happen in relationships.

Dan suggests that “if you have productive conflict or if you encourage productive conflict, there will be times when you step over the boundary and it's what you do then that is the important thing, in how you recover.” In other words, how you repair the error or breach in the relationship is often more important than the error itself.

Many folks shy away from conflict, or hope it never happens. Planning for it and knowing it will happen is a fundamentally different stance, a more effective Error and Repair Operating System.

I also love the “reasonable person principle” that Jen and Dan use in their relationship, as long as it never slides into gaslighting.

We unpack a lot more great stuff, from uninstalling Holacracy at Medium to the importance of being journey-focused in entrepreneurship relationships, and the power of crafting explicit processes ahead of needing to use them.

Dan and Jen are also big believers, like me, in the power of the “check-in''. For example, in my men’s group we share in 30 seconds how we're doing emotionally and physically at the start of every group. At Range, it can be as simple as a “green, yellow, red” check-in or as deep as going straight to the question “how are you…really?” 

They suggest that baking human connection into each and every meeting is much much more effective than trying to isolate connection into one “vibes” meeting.

As with many of my co-founder conversations, there is a common thread of clear roles along with an awareness of and respect for the Venn diagram of skills between the co-founders.

Another common thread, as Dan says at the end of our conversation: looking after yourself and attending to yourself is key, because “if you're not in a good state, you can't be a good teammate and you definitely can't be a good leader.”

Be sure to check out my other co-founder conversations. I discussed building an Integrity Culture with the co-founders of Huddle, Michale Saloio and Stephanie Golik, and investigated prototyping partnerships with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist. 

You may also enjoy my interview with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create, where we unpack how they managed their working relationship. Paired creativity is a thing!

And if you really want to dive deep into the idea of being a conscious co-founder, make sure to check out my conversation with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Range

Lawrence Lessig’s Pathetic Dot theory

Daniel Coyle’s Belonging Cues: Belonging cues are non-verbal signals that humans use to create safe connections in groups. The three basic qualities of belonging cues are 1) the energy invested in the exchange, 2) valuing individuals, and 3) signaling that the relationship will sustain in the future.

Kegan’s Levels, specifically, Stage 4 — Self-Authoring mind

Lead Time Chats

In this conversation, I sit down with Huddle Co-Founders Stephanie Golik and Michael Saloio.

Huddle is a platform for designers and builders to invest in startups with their time. 

Stephanie has spent her career building alongside founders at studios and leading design and product at fast-growing tech companies. She was an early design leader at Cruise, building user experiences for self-driving cars. Before that, Steph was Head of Product at Mapfit (acq. by Foursquare). She's a proud Cuban-American born, raised and currently residing in Miami.

Michael is a product and team-focused entrepreneur and investor. He’s spent his career working with technology executives and investors. As an investment analyst at Oppenheimer & Co., he followed some of the biggest names in technology including Cisco, EMC, and Apple. Prior to Oppenheimer, Mike covered special situations at Sidoti & Co.

Over the past five years, Michael reimagined his career to focus on early-stage businesses. He was the first employee at SuperPhone, a messaging application backed by Ben Horowitz, Betaworks, Bessemer, and more. Since 2014 he has consulted with, invested in, or advised more than 35 startups that have raised more than $200M in venture financing.

I met Michael years ago and have tracked his rise…when I saw that his latest venture raised 3.3M and was a co-founded company, I reconnected to include him in my co-founder conversations series.

My question throughout this series has been simple - what does it take to build and sustain a powerful co-founder relationship? 

Michael and Stephanie shared some of the insights and principles that helped them do exactly that.

The biggest aha was the umbrella concept of an Integrity Culture, and how many powerful values fall into place with a focus on Integrity.

As Michael points out, it’s not just “I do what I say I will” it's also about a culture of Coaching and Feedback to help everyone right-size their commitments and to give themselves (and others) feedback along the way when they find themselves falling short.

Stephanie and Michael share a conversation format that they use over the course of each week to keep their team on track and in integrity!

Integrity Culture also implicates one of my favorite words: Interoception, a concept I learned from Food Coach Alissa Rumsey.

Michael and Stephanie’s vision of an integrity culture is one where you commit to a thing because you are intrinsically motivated to do it, not through force or pressure…you self-select the thing you are going to do. And that means you know what you want! Interoception is the ability to feel and know your inner state. 

Some additional keys to a powerful co-founder relationship that line up with the other conversations in this series are the ability to have Healthy Conflict (rather than an unhealthy “peace”) and the regular asking and giving of generous and generative deep feedback.

One other insight that was fresh for me in this conversation was Michael’s idea of a good co-founder relationship as one that is “Energy Producing” vs. energy sucking. A powerful co-founder relationship is like a flywheel - the more energy you invest into it, the more energy it throws off.

Be sure to check out my other co-founder conversations, like this episode with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist, on how they connected through shared communities and learned how each other really worked through real-world, previous projects.

You may also enjoy my interview with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create, where we unpack how they managed their working relationship.

And if you really want to dive deep into the idea of being a conscious co-founder, make sure to check out my conversation with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Huddle website

Today my guest is Yehong Zhu, the founder and CEO of Zette.

We discuss three key layers of conversation design: 

+ The conversation with yourself - even with so many companies founded…why not me?

+ The importance of community, community building and hosting as an integral part of staying sane, informed and productive as a founder.

+ The broader, cultural conversation - how does a founder design the conversation around why does this company matter? Shaping this narrative arc can help you connect your company’s mission to the mission of potential funders and advisors

Prior to starting Zette, she worked as a journalist at Forbes Magazine, where she reported on business, market and technology trends. She also worked as a product manager at Twitter on two consumer teams—the Tweets team in San Francisco and the Events team in London—where she shipped features on desktop, mobile web, iOS, and Android to 330M users globally. She graduated from Harvard College in 2018 with a degree in philosophy and government.

Be sure to check out my conversation with Michael Bervell about his “Conversation Onion” model that we reference in the conversation.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Playing Nice with Paywalls

Zette

In this conversation, I dive into the nuances of co-founder relationships with Clarity.so co-founders Richie Bonilla, CEO and Eni Jaupi, CTO.

Clarity.so is a y-combinator funded startup that has built a groundbreaking DAO contribution platform. DAO stands for Decentralized, Autonomous Organization, which you should totally google if you want to know more. 

While Clarity isn’t a DAO, you can see how the radical transparency that is at the heart and spirit of the cryptocurrency movement is also at the core of Richie and Eni’s relationship. I mean, it’s also the name of the company!

Like a few of the other conscious co-founder interviews I’ve been doing, these two co-founders prototyped their working relationship before jumping into their company together, which helped them build a foundation of trust and respect.

They also talked a lot. Like A LOT before even starting the company. Starting with a few times a week, they gradually transitioned to talking for at least an hour, daily, for a year.

What this conversation re-established for me was that it’s important to have agenda-ed conversations, and it’s also very important to have stream-of-consciousness, unagendaed conversations, too. Generally speaking, we’re great at structure, and less good at making space for wondering and wandering. For more on the power of wondering and wandering, make sure to check out my interview with Natalie Nixon.

Be sure to check out my conversation with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist, on how they connected through shared communities and learned how each other really worked through real-world, previous projects.

You may also enjoy my interview with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create, where we unpack how they managed their working relationship.

And if you really want to dive deep into the idea of being a conscious co-founder, make sure to check out my conversation with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Clarity.so

In this conversation, I sat down with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Doug is a former serial entrepreneur turned economic developer and executive coach, and he’s committed to growing Northern Nevada’s startup and technology ecosystem. His community work has helped change the perception of Reno and lay the foundation for future generations of entrepreneurs to thrive in the region. Doug is proud to support entrepreneurs as they embark upon their own journeys.   

Doug shares, with great clarity, vulnerability and humility, his entrepreneurial journey and some key lessons he’s learned along the way.

I invited Doug to have a conversation with me about what it might mean to be a conscious cofounder, given Doug’s personal work on mindfulness. Towards the end of the conversation, we arrive at the idea that we are our own most important cofounder - the conversations we have with ourselves will either lead us to lean into or turn away from challenging conversations with our cofounders. And with the lens of Triple Loop Learning, we can start to create better cofounder relationships, not just with better contracts and financial structures, but from our way of being.

The basic metaphor is this: Work is a relationship. And relationships are made of conversations.

And you can hear this in Doug's description of a company as a “rebound startup” or talking about startups like a marriage.

And just like in personal relationships, sometimes, as Doug says, people want to turn away from the discomfort of having difficult conversations.

Doug mentioned research about splits among founders and how it related to the future success of the company. I did a bit of digging and... It’s counter-intuitive, that a startup with equal distributions is a red flag to investors, and that such a company is more likely to fail.

Doug suggests that unequal distributions are proof that the founders have had some hard conversations - which is a key skill in work and life.

However, roughly three out of four startups decide to split the business equally when they start up.

One of the main issues with this approach isn’t a question of HOW to make the split, but WHEN. A 2016 HBR article suggests that founders should wait to split shares until later, co-creating rules to determine the value of various contributions. (I recommend the book Slicing the Pie!).

The HBR authors suggest that “teams that negotiate longer are more likely to decide on an unequal split: the harder you look, the more likely you are to discover important differences. More generally, [they] argue that if cofounders haven’t learned something surprising about each other from their dialogue, they probably haven’t engaged in a serious enough discussion yet.”

The HBR article suggests that a hastily created equal split will sour over time - the percentage of founders who are unhappy with their split increases by 2.5x as their startups mature. That discontent can lead to rapid turnover, which can be problematic.

Another study, led by Professor David Noack, Executive Director of the Hall Global Entrepreneurship Center at the Goddard School of Business and Economics at Utah’s Weber State University suggests that an equal split, especially in early-stage companies, has another unexpected effect - making it unclear who’s driving the bus. According to Professor Noack’s research, if no one feels that they have ownership and responsibility, no one takes the wheel, which has a real effect: 

Companies with an unequal split were 21.7% more likely than other firms to be up and running a year later.

And just like in a marriage, having a “pre-nup” conversation can be awkward, even when people know the data about divorce. 

While it’s uncomfortable to do so, hosting a conversation to explore all the negative scenarios that might occur in the future, with corresponding actions to help avoid them, can help founders avoid headaches later on…and increase startups’ chances of success.

This is a conversation worth listening to…And I’m excited to share it with you!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

EDAWN - Startup Reno

Growth Pioneers Podcast

Today my guests are Lisa Kay Solomon and Chris Ertel, the co-authors of the powerhouse 2014 book Moments of Impact: How to Design Strategic Conversations That Accelerate Change, which celebrates its 10th anniversary this year! I devoured this book 10 years ago and I think you might enjoy it, too!

Lisa Kay Solomon is currently a Designer in Residence at the Stanford d. school, where she teaches classes such as Inventing the Future where students imagine, debate and analyze the 50-year futures of emerging tech, and works closely with the K12 community to make futures thinking a mainstay of 21c core curriculum. She has also been named to the Thinkers50 2022 Radar List and is one of ixDA’s Women of Design 2020.

Chris Ertel is a managing director of Deloitte Consulting LLP with a specialist role designing and providing high-stakes strategic conversations for clients and priority firm initiatives, in the Deloitte Greenhouse® signature environments. Chris is an innovation strategist with 18 years of experience advising leading organizations. He holds a PhD in demography from UC-Berkeley.

We talk about 

• What it really means to be a facilitative leader, and why it’s so impactful. As Lisa and Chris say in MOI:

“At these critical moments, everyone will be looking at you, not for all the answers, but to help them unearth the answers together”

• The Five Core Principles of Moments of Impact, which can form a Design Process

1. Define your purpose  (your design intent!)

2. Engage multiple perspectives (with your facilitation skills!)

3. Frame the issues

4. Set the Scene

5. Make it an experience (even an intense or challenging one!)

• How designing conversations is different from facilitating them: Lisa makes it clear that Conversation Design is about intent and purpose while Facilitation skills are the tool that helps orchestrate those Moments of Impact.

• Why Conversation Design isn’t taught to leaders but should be (Lisa also tells us why it’s so hard to teach, since it brings together strategy, psychology and emotional intelligence)

• Why Chris always coaches leaders to condense and delete content from their strategic meetings (to 10 slides!) instead of making what communications expert Nancy Duarte calls a “Procument” (something that’s neither an easy to use and digest presentation or a leave-behind document!)

• How crucial discussing decision-making rights are - as Chris suggests many leaders want to keep their options open and wind up creating an “air of democracy without the reality of it” 

• Why You should start becoming a junkie of learning theories

• The importance of balancing humor and levity with challenging-ness and sparkiness to create productive environments

• The importance of knowing that the “yeah buts” will come when we’re hosting challenging conversations as in: 

yeah, but, that won’t work here! or…

yeah, but, what will we be able to report next quarter? Or…

yeah, but who’s budget is going to cover that?

And so much more! If you have Moments of Impact that you need to shape, design, and lead and you *don’t* have Moments of Impact on your desk - get it!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Get Moments of Impact! 

https://www.lisakaysolomon.com/about

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/profiles/certel.html

A plan is not a strategy: The short video from Roger Martin we were talking about!

I first met Dr. Paul Browde as part of a multi-month intensive men's work program we were both part of. We were just about to break out into a few parallel sessions about various elements of running men’s groups when Paul raised his hand and said something to the effect of “would it be useful to have a breakout session about our personal narratives and how we use them to lead?”

I watched as the heads of 40+ men swiveled to focus on this one unassuming gentleman and witnessed nearly half of the group switch over from whatever session they were planning on going to and instead, go to sit around Paul to listen to him tell his story and share his wisdom about how to share our own stories. That’s the power of story!

Paul is a doctor of psychiatry and a TedX speaker. He has shared the stage with luminaries like Esther Perel, has taught Narrative Medicine at Columbia University, and co-founded a storytelling company called Narativ.

Paul has some profound wisdom to share about how to become aware of a different type of story - the stories that tell us, as well as the power of sharing our own stories, and examining the stories we tell about ourselves to ourselves and to others. 

As Paul writes on his site:

We are born in connection, we are wired for connection, and it is through connection that we heal and experience our true aliveness.

I have always felt that stories can be the most powerful elements of communication - indeed, they are the thread that holds together each and every conversation. 

Stories are how we connect, heal and come alive.

Listen onward to learn about Paul’s mental models of how to become a space for others to share their stories - to shape your listening as a vessel, a bowl, to receive stories generously.

Narrative is powerful medicine that we can give to ourselves and to the people around us.

Enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Paul Browde: Healing through connection

The Power of Two: How Listening Shapes Storytelling

Two Twosomes, Not a Script in Sight

The Masculinity Paradox: Warmup with Paul Browde - Sessions Live by Ester Perel

How do you make a friend?

How do you become lovers with someone?

How do you become business partners?

In RomComs, there’s a “meet-cute”...the hilarious and unlikely way two people in this topsy-turvy mixed-up world collide and fall madly, rapidly in love. 

In the real world, taking time and gradually testing, trying and yes, prototyping a relationship is ideal. In love, we call it dating. There’s no good word for “friend-dating”, especially when you’re doing it with someone of the same sex. 

And with founding a company…where does the conversation start?

In this conversation, I sit down with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist, on how they connected through shared communities, and learned how each other really worked through real-world, previous projects.

They also share their insights on setting the stage for both a long-term vision for building a company AND for a possible exit from a partnership through thoughtful conversations.

Userlist is a tool for sending behavior-based messages to SaaS customers and recently completed a pre-seed round with 21 angel inventors.

Benedikt is a software engineer from Germany who loves to plan, build, and grow web applications. He co-hosts the Slow And Steady Podcast and organizes the Femto Conference, a tiny conference for self-funded tech companies. Jane is a leading UI/UX consultant specializing in web application design, and has been the host and founder of the  UI Breakfast podcast since 2014 (she kindly invited me to join her show in early 2022).

Enjoy my conversation with these two delightful co-founders as much as I did.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

UI Breakfast

Userlist

benediktdeicke.com

Better Done than Perfect podcast 

Jane's Story: Turning Thirty: Story of My Life

Culture, Values, Operating Principles & More

Inspire, Not Instruct: How We Do User Onboarding at Userlist

Today I host a conversation with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create. Their working title was “Messy Minds” and one of the core ideas of the book is just that - deeply creative folks can manage messiness, plow through paradox and move calmly through contradiction.

These capacities are also powerful tools for managing a creative relationship.

I’m doing a series of interviews with co-founders on how they design their conversations (ie, their broader relationship) and manage themselves and each other while building and running a company. 

A book is a mini-company, and so when I met Carolyn through a friend, I thought she and Scott would be amazing folks to unpack how a high tolerance for dissonance, complexity, ambiguity, and chaos can help us make amazing things, together.

Creativity, making something new, isn’t ever a clear linear progression towards the dream, the magical ideal goal. There’s always iteration, recursion, re-invention…and being patient with the process, your creative partner and yourself - that last one is a truly powerful key.

One of my favorite insights was the idea of the importance of sensitivity and awareness of your own inner state and the willingness to take downtime…both to manage yourself, refuel and to trust that stepping back will always help - since constant production isn’t possible!

One thing you’ll hear over and over again is the complementarity and flow in a positive creative relationship: being able to feed back and forth between each other and also give and take, grounded in respect and admiration for each other's skills and contributions. This respect for the other’s skills allows for a dramatic increase in output through parallel work, or relay-race style collaboration.

Make sure to check out Carolyn’s other writing and book doula work at carolyngregoire.com and Scott’s podcast, course, and his recent best-selling book, Transcend, at scottbarrykaufman.com.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Carolyn Gregoire's website

Scott Barry Kaufman's website

Wired to Create, by Scott Barry Kaufman and Carolyn Gregoire

Trust the Process, by Shaun McNiff

The Messy Middle, by Scott Belsky

Origami: From Angelfish to Zen

I’m excited to share this rambling and wide-ranging conversation with Srinivas Rao. Srini is the host of The Unmistakable Creative Podcast, and has recorded over a thousand episodes with such luminaries as Danielle Laporte, Tim Ferriss, Seth Godin, and me! Srini describes his podcast as “If TEDTalks met Oprah”. Srini has interviewed so many different types of folks, from bank robbers to billionaires. He also has a business degree from UC-Berkeley and an MBA from Pepperdine   University.

We talk about podcast interviewing (meta, I know!) and we unpack a topic that’s close to both of our hearts: creative output.

One of my early podcast episodes was with Sara Holoubek, CEO of Innovation Systems consulting firm Luminary Labs. Sara introduced me to the idea of having what she called an “Intelligence Engine'' - a process by which organizations turn insights into action and action into opportunities, not just every so often, but consistently and regularly. It’s not a dissimilar idea from Jim Collins’ “Flywheel effect” in that, ideally, you tune up your engine often, and even upgrade it when you need to.

One of my core beliefs is that conversations exist at different scales, and that they act in similar ways at these different scales. I also might take the idea of a conversation too far…in that I feel that any iterative, adaptive cycle is, in essence, a conversation.

So, Sara’s Intelligence Engine is essential for a healthy, growing company’s conversation with the world - after all, intelligence at the product and/or organizational innovation level requires a consistent cycle of making or creating new things, testing or trying those things out and reflecting on how it went, ie, harvesting insights. That’s an innovation conversation, at scale.

That cycle is pretty much the same at the level of the individual. We all need to seek new input, make and try new things, and then reflect and inspect the results.

Serendipity Engine vs Intelligence Engines vs Curiosity Engines

As with organizational intelligence, individual intelligence engines need to have a balance of intention and wandering. We need to be actively seeking new insights and ideas that matter to us, while also being open and curious about the unexpected. So, having a curiosity engine, like my guest Glenn Fajardo suggested  in our episode on connecting remote teams, is a powerful way to rev up your intelligence engine, for yourself, your team and your organization.

Managing the flow of input, insight, and output

If there is one key takeaway from this episode, it’s that the open/explore/close // diverge/emerge/converge ARC of our own intelligence conversation is input-insight-output.

 

Srinivas’ top tips for building your own personal intelligence engine:

 

• Limit your Input
• Diversify your input
• Read books, not articles (they’ve digested complexity already!)
• Use a networked tool to capture your smart notes (srivas recommends Mem.ai which I also use!)
• Reflect and Connect dots regularly

Monotask to reduce the cognitive costs of task switching (check out my friends at Caveday and use the code 1STMONTHONE to get month of community-based monotasking support for $1 or use TRYACAVE21 to get your first cave free)

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

The Unmistakable Creative podcasthttps://podcast.unmistakablecreative.com/

Sara Holoubek on Human Companies and Solving Problems that Matter

Three Systems Every Creator Needs to Build by Srinivas Rao

You're Not Listening by Kate Murphy

The Life-Changing Science of Detecting Bullshit

Effortless Output in Roam course by Nat Eliason

How to Take Smart Notes by Sönke Ahrens

Maximize Your Output course by Srinivas Rao

This episode, Dr. Natalie Nixon and I dig into not just what it means to be creative, but also how leaders can create space for creativity and inspire it in their teams by letting in a little chaos. Dr. Nixon is the author of The Creativity Leap, a creativity strategist, and a highly sought-after keynote speaker. In this conversation, we dive into the ideas behind her book, what makes someone "a creative" (hint: it involves being deeply human), and how important humanity and creativity are to the future of work - Natalie and I agree that we should let our AI overlords do what they do best…and we humans should focus on what we do best - be creative and empathetic!

Natalie and I have three unexpected things in common: Ballroom dancing, an enthusiasm for Chaordic Thinking, and a deep sense that these two things are deeply intertwined!

Dancing looks to regularly resolve the dynamic tension between chaos and order, and find a state of flow between the two.

Chaordic Systems Thinking, if you’re new to it, was first coined by Dee Hock, the founder and former CEO of VISA. He felt an ideal organization would balance order and control with disorder and openness, moving between them as it grew. Chaordic is just a made-up word combining chaos and order. I made a basic diagram of Chaordic systems Thinking for my book, Good Talk.

Total Order (O, on the right) is oppressive and stultifying. It also doesn’t deal well with surprise or adapt to unpredictability. Total chaos (C, on the left) can mean a total collapse of a given system - as Natalie says, without any boundaries, what is it even!?! 

A chaordic system moves between the poles of chaos and order, spiraling outward, growing and expanding as it does. A conversation can be chaordic, too, by the way.

For example, in a workshop, I sometimes feel the noise of collaboration and conversation rise, and I wonder, “Is this the moment to rein things in and move the conversation forward?” After all, sometimes that golden “aha” moment is just around the corner, just past my capacity to enjoy the chaos.

In the chaos and randomness, new patterns are sometimes found. Like in jazz, those new patterns are then played with, firmed up, made more orderly…until they get too controlled, boring or repetitive. Then the chaordic cycle swings back towards chaos. 

This is why, as Natalie points out, good leaders are also good followers: they are open to changing environments, and take the best of what’s emerging, reading their team and adapting to new situations.

Natalie and I also unpack the misunderstandings many folks, leaders included, have around the idea of being creative - one of most damaging being that the word doesn't (or can't) apply to them.

Natalie's ideas on creativity and flow are critical for the future of work, and something that every leader, whether you lead a team of artists or a team of accountants, needs to hear.

Enjoy the conversation!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

figure8thinking.com

The Creativity Leap by Natalie Nixon

Your "invisible work" is key to your most productive self by Natalie Nixon

The Extended Mind by Annie Murphy Paul

There is Confusion by Jessie Redmon Fauset

How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia by Mohsin Hamid

Bright Lights, Big City by Jay McInerney

Sand Talk by Tyson Yunkaporta

Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World, interview with Tyson Yunkaporta

I'm thrilled to be able to share this conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones with you! Carrie is the co-author of Building Brand Communities, with Charles Vogl, and she's kind of a big deal in the community-building world. She's also an alum of the facilitation masterclass and a friend. 

This is Part Three of a Three-part, wide-ranging conversation.  You can enjoy this conversation even if you haven’t listened to parts one and two, but you can find the link to them here.

Today, We explore a topic of great importance and impact - how to make a creative partnership work…something I am thinking of as being a “Conscious Cofounder”.

Carrie reflects on the journey she took in creating her book with her co-author, as well as sharing her lessons learned along the way about helping a partnership ride out the inevitable dips and bumps that happen along the way.

Enjoy the conversation as much as I did!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links

Communities are Conversations parts 1 and 2

Carrie's Website

Podcast episode: Being a Beginner is Often the Key We Need for Empathy and Creativity

Building Brand Communities, by Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles H. Vogl

The Power of Ritual with Casper ter Kuile

How do you turn a question, a problem, or just a list of needs, into an agenda? At the close of a recent cohort of the facilitation masterclass, the participants were still sitting with some big questions. Which is good, because that's what the closing session is for! But I felt that some of these questions were too big for one conversation. So, I invited four alums of the facilitation masterclass to come together and share some thoughts on a fundamental challenge: turning a question into a conversation, an agenda and an arc. 

I’m joined by 

Erica O’Donnell, a hybrid professional working at the intersection of design thinking, strategy, facilitation, and innovation,

Kyle Pearce, a leader in collaborative change with an extensive background in the health and social services sector.

Frankie Iturbe, a Program Manager at Newsela, a K12 EdTech company

And Kate Farnady, Director, Chief of Staff, Strategic Technologies at Autodesk, and also the community coordinator for the Conversation Factory Insiders’s Group!

We only scratched the surface, but there's lots of goodness in here.

Just a few of the things we discussed:

• How stated goals may not always have the whole group aligned with them, and what to do about it.
• Sharing responsibility for the agenda and outcome with stakeholders and session attendees
• How good insights can sometimes arise even in spite of (or perhaps because of) chaos
• Different approaches to facilitating agendas around messy goals and questions

If you want to dive deeper, check out my course on the 9Ps of meeting planning. I'd also recommend signing up for the conversation factory insiders group...we ran another deep dive on this question, reflecting on the question "why do I need an agenda?" and sharing our responses together. You can join here and check out that session as a subscriber here.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links

Kate on LinkedIn

Frankie on LinkedIn

Erica on LinkedIn

Good Seed Digital

Think: Act Consulting

I'm thrilled to be able to share this conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones with you! Carrie is the co-author of Building Brand Communities, with Charles Vogl, and she's kind of a big deal in the community-building world. She's also an alum of the facilitation masterclass and a friend.  This is Part Two of a Three-part, wide-ranging conversation. You can enjoy this conversation even if you haven’t listened to part one, but you can find links to that episode here. 

Today, We dig deeper on the subject of community as a conversation. As Carrie says, every community starts with a conversation, and conversations are what sustain communities and hold them together.

You’ll learn about the pitfalls of trying to manufacture and own every aspect of a community, the importance of many-to-many conversations in communities, and why you need to think about your community as a circle, not a megaphone. You’ll also hear more about Carrie’s perspective on the importance of inner work for community builders.

The less I say the better! If you haven’t checked out part one, you can still enjoy part two…but you can find the link to part one below.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links:

Communities are Conversations, Part 1

Carrie's Website

Podcast episode: Being a Beginner is Often the Key We Need for Empathy and Creativity

Building Brand Communities, by Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles H. Vogl

The Power of Ritual with Casper ter Kuile

I'm thrilled to be able to share this conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones with you! Carrie is the co-author of Building Brand Communities, with Charles Vogl, and she's kind of a big deal in the community-building world. She's also an alum of the facilitation masterclass and a friend. 

In this wide-ranging conversation, we dig deep on the subject of community as a conversation. As Carrie says, every community starts with a conversation, and conversations are what sustain communities and hold them together.

Some of what we cover in this 3-part episode:

• What community really is, and how organizations get it wrong

• The power of online relationships and how they can help us

• How the community-builder affects the community

• The inner work that goes along with community building, and how that affects brand communities

• The conversation that launched a book - the story of Building Brand Communities

• The difference between meaningful engagement and empty engagement

• Why brand communities? What role do they play in rebuilding our social fabric?

• How modern community-building efforts are still being shaped by outdated ideas

Parts 2 and 3 are coming soon!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links

Carrie's Website

Podcast episode: Being a Beginner is Often the Key We Need for Empathy and Creativity

Building Brand Communities, by Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles H. Vogl

The Power of Ritual with Casper ter Kuile

I can’t believe it’s taken me SO long to share this conversation with the Amazing Elise Foster.

Elise is a powerful coach, an accomplished author, and a friend. She’s the co-author of The Multiplier Effect with Liz Wiseman and Beautiful Questions in the Classroom with Warren Berger (who’s written several bestselling books on powerful questions).

She was a thinking partner for me when I was in the early stages of writing my second book, and I was shocked and honored when she decided to come to my Facilitation Masterclass and even more shocked and honored when she actually got something out of it - proving that it really is more about what they practice and the container I create than what I teach!

I’m also honored that she’s been a great member of the Conversation Factory Insiders’ group - we started 2 years ago with alums of the masterclass meeting monthly for experiments and intentional practice, and 2 years and 22 sessions later, we’ve all learned a tremendous amount about leading groups online. Elise was kind enough to lead a session for the community on the QFT, a Question Formulation Technique from the Right Question Institute which has shifted how I think about Powerful Questions and how I coach teams on them, too.

In this conversation, I wanted Elise to unpack not just some of her favorite “Eye Opener” warmup exercises to help get teams to think differently, but also how she thinks about bringing them into sessions with teams, and why they matter.

Lots of folks talk about icebreakers - and they can be helpful to help us connect to each other from afar…but they are such a broad class of activities - they can include games like “Two truths and lie” which are just about connecting people as humans or “three things”, a classic improv game which helps folks just warm up their brains.

Priya Parker asks folks to check into the chat with where they are and what actual substance is beneath their feet, to help ground and connect us.

Eye-openers are both about what we do, as leaders and coaches of people in the moment, in order to create an experience for people…and eye-openers are also about how we help people reflect and unpack that experience and how to connect it to a larger idea about transformation and development.

Elise kicks our conversation off by talking about the “Hand Clasping Game”, a classic exercise that you can try now since we talk about it, but don’t give it enough time to “breathe” in the conversation.

Just clasp your hands together naturally.

Of course, this assumes you have two hands. If this doesn’t apply to you, I hope you can imagine the process.

Now, unclasp your hands and “reclasp them” but shift hands - whatever hand was “pinky out” let the other hand be the “pinky out” hand. Elise calls this “reversing the weave” of your hands.

What do you feel?

Discomfort. Oddness. Weirdness.

That is a raw, visceral experience. Now, the magic happens when Elise unpacks this experience, and applies it to the context she works in - Leadership Transformation. 

Having a toolbox or a mental “file” of these exercises can be great…in fact, I have a whole online course about them. But as Elise and I discuss, having the wherewithal to bring one of these out in a session also takes some guts and some faith.

You take some trust the team has in you and burn it…risk it on an edgy experience…and hopefully you earn that trust back, with dividends, at the end of the unpacking.

Also worth noting is that this is the second episode on the theme of “An experience is worth a thousand slides” when it comes to coaching executive mindset shifts... The first conversation was with Jeff Gothelf, most notably the co-author of Lean UX, where we talked about the Vase and Flowers exercise, another powerful eye-opener that I love very much.

This episode is short and sweet, so without further delay, enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

My guest today is Ashley Goodall, a leadership expert who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside, most recently as an executive at Cisco. He is the co-author of Nine Lies About Work, which was selected as the best management book of 2019 by Strategy + Business and as one of Amazon’s best business and leadership books of 2019. It is an awesome book - highly recommended. If, after listening to this conversation you want to hear more (and I think you will!), take a listen to him and his co-author, Marcus Buckingham, talking on the HBR Idea Cast about lie #5 - the idea that people need feedback - and how most managers think about giving feedback in an utterly wrong way - which is also an idea we dive into later in our conversation today.

Prior to Cisco, Ashley spent fourteen years at Deloitte as a consultant and as the Chief Learning Officer for Leadership and Professional development. 

His book, "The Problem with Change: and the Essential Nature of Human Performance" is about what we might call lie number 10: the idea that change is good and that leaders must lead change in order to be good leaders. Wholesale belief in this lie has created what Ashley calls  “Life in the Blender” - driven by what I’ve heard some folks refer to as “The Reorg of the Day”.

I love love love the musical analogies Ashley uses to describe leadership - not as the lead guitar or first violin, but as the Ground Bass - the principal structural element of a musical piece. The Leader can help teams navigate change by playing a backbeat of stability and consistency, supporting a range of free expression and variation. Find a link to Pachelbel's Canon here and listen to the Goldberg variations here (which he mentions in the extended version of the analogy, later on in the conversation).

What is that Ground Bass? For Ashley it’s about helping people feel seen, connected, celebrated and clear on the story of the meaning of their contributions to the work. 

This perspective aligns very well with the message Bree Larson offered here some years back. Bree is a Partner at SYPartners and shared her framework around the challenges of designing organizational change - that most change can easily result in one or more of the Six Types of Loss she identified:

Loss of Control
Loss of Pride
Loss of Narrative
Loss of Time
Loss of Competence
Loss of Familiarity 

All of which Ashley suggests leaders can deflect or reduce through 9 key leadership skills that he outlines in depth in his book:

1. Make space 

2. Forge undeniable competence 

3. Share secrets 

4. Be predictable 

5. Speak real words 

6. Honor ritual 

7. Focus most on teams

8. Radicalize HR 

9. Pave the way

Prior to releasing the book, Ashley wrote a New York Times Op-Ed piece which is a blockbuster and is an even more succinct, poignant and straight-on condemnation of modern corporate leadership - it is also highly worth reading. This book feels a bit like a Burn Book - Ashley is pointing out fundamental misconceptions at the heart of corporate life in a direct and unvarnished manner - in the hope that some leaders will listen and start doing things differently - Leading in a way that takes into account how humans really are and what we really need to thrive at work.

Ashley is very clear: companies need to look beyond wellness initiatives and corporate cheerleading and shift their focus to the fundamental environment of daily work.

The effects of a corporate life caught in constant change are more than clear to anyone who’s been through it: uncertainty, a lack of control, a sense of unbelonging and of displacement, and a loss of meaning

As Goodall says, “The ultimate job of leadership is not disruption and it is not to create change; it is to create a platform for human contribution, to create the conditions in which people can do the best work of their lives.”

Also - do listen for an extended exchange around minute 40 where we talk about the power of praise and the Paul Hollywood handshake - if you’re not a Great British Bake off fan, there’s still time to watch a few episodes to get in the mood - or at least witness the effect of the Hollywood Handshake on Friends star David Schwimmer here.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Find a link to Pachelbel's Canon here and listen to the Goldberg variations here.

Ashley wrote a New York Times Op-Ed which is a blockbuster

Take a listen to Ashley and his co-author, Marcus Buckingham, talking on the HBR Idea Cast about lie #5 - the idea that people need feedback - and how most managers think about giving feedback utterly wrong.

Canon in D Major by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...)

Source: http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-...

Artist: http://incompetech.com/

Witness the effect of the Hollywood Handshake on Friends star David Schwimmer here.

Each of us has a conversational range. What size of conversation brings you alive?

In this little audio experiment, I read aloud an essay of mine about Conversational Range. 

I hope you enjoy it!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Support the Podcast and Get insider Access
https://theconversationfactory.com/conversation-factory-insider

Link to original article:
https://www.danielstillman.com/blog/conversational-range

I'm so excited to share this book club experiment with you. I've been inviting alums of my facilitation masterclass and subscribers to the conversation factory insiders group into intimate conversations with authors of transformative books. In this conversation, my friend Brian Pagán, Author of "The Creative Empathy Field Guide," is our guest.

Brian points out early on that empathy is lauded by many thought leaders and no lack of articles - with the simple, inspirational message that empathy is good for you! And while that is absolutely true, what is missing is the how of empathy - not the why. Brain sought to fill this gap with his book, "the creative empathy field guide" which is a very short and very helpful book....and if you follow the links to Brian's website at the Greatness Studio, he's got a "greatest hits" selection from the book that you can access, free of charge.

So: Just to clarify our definitions: Creative Empathy is the use of empathy in the creative process. That is, we are making things and those things are not for us. So, we must learn to both connect with those people we are creating for and to detach from them - we have to tap into our skills of emotional agility to lean in and out of creative empathy.

One thing that you'll find most surprising (or at least I did!) is that creative empathy benefits from some of the tools of method acting - the ability to connect to your own experience and bring that experience into the present moment.

One thing that is missing from this conversation is my friend and guest from early in 2021, Dr. Lesely Ann Noel, who really helped me understand that there are limits to us-them dichotomies in design thinking and that designing for others can reinforce existing power dynamics, stereotypes and "othering" of people. Brian does address this in his book, but I recommend my conversation with Dr. Noel, DeColonizing Design Thinking. Dr. Noel has a complementary array of tools to help decolonize our thinking, like her Positionality Wheel which we turned into a Mural template to help you facilitate that conversation with your teams.

In this conversation, Brian and the Conversation Factory Insiders Community dives deep into The Empathic Design Process that Brian adapted: 

1. Discovery, 2. Immersion, 3. Connection, 4. Detachment

Discovery: As creators, we approach the other person’s world, which provokes our interest, curiosity, and willingness to empathize.

Immersion: We enter the other person’s world, look around, and absorb what we see without judgment.

Connection: Here, we resonate with the other person’s experience by recalling our own relevant experiences and memories.

Detachment: Finally, we leave their world to focus on creative action, before starting the cycle afresh.

Also check out Brian’s site for Free Creative Empathy Tools like an Ethical Design Checklist, his Journey Map Canvas and a Character Map Canvas (as an alternative to personas).

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

What is a "perfect conversation"? 

What about the "perfect" conversationalist? 

I'm thrilled to share this discussion that Michael Bervell and I had around those questions and more. Michael is a Ghanaian-American angel-investor, entrepreneur, philanthropist, and philosopher. He currently serves as the youngest President of the Harvard Club of Seattle and works as a Portfolio Development Manager at M12, Microsoft’s Venture Capital Fund.

He's also the author of Unlocking Unicorns and the host of the blog "billion dollar startup ideas" 

He's also a conversation design nerd, like me… and his insights into conversation design are not to be missed. We unpack some essential questions, like:

• Understanding the types of Conversations with the “Concentric Circle” model of Conversations
• The Importance of Self-Talk in Conversations
• The Art of Noticing: What to “read” when you're reading a conversation.
• Being an “authentic chameleon”: Balancing being adaptable in conversation with being authentic
• The Power of non-questions and Questions with a period.

I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions. I sent the transcript to Rashmi so she could pull out what she needed from the conversation.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links

Unlocking Unicorns, by Michael Bervell

Michael's website

Billion Dollar Startup Ideas

Michael on TikTok

The TikTok Michael told Daniel to make

The Conversation Factory book club is an experiment I’ve been running for a few months now. I’m experimenting with deeper conversations and collaborations with the subscribers of the Conversation Factory Insiders group as well as working to go deeper with some of the ideas that have been shared on the Podcast.

This is a round-table conversation with Adam Kahane, author of Facilitating Breakthrough, with a few special guests from the Conversation Factory Insiders group. If you haven’t listened to the interview I did with Adam last season OR read the book, I think you can still enjoy the conversation.

Adam does show some slides during the conversation, so head over to YouTube if you want to follow along. 

A note on process: In this session, you’ll hear the panel share what parts of the book were most impactful to them, and then Adam responds to their comments with some deeper thoughts. The wisdom Adam drops here is absolutely worth the price of admission!

Check out the show notes on theconversationfactory.com for links to Adam’s book, our podcast conversation last year, and his work as a Director at Reos Partners.

If you’re unfamiliar with Adam and Reos, Reos is an international social enterprise that helps people move forward together on their most important and intractable issues. Adam has over 30 years of experience facilitating breakthroughs at the highest levels in government and society. His own breakthrough facilitation moment came with an invitation to host the Mont Fleur Scenario Planning Exercises he facilitated in 1990s South Africa at the dawn of that country’s transition towards democracy and the twilight of apartheid. 

He’s gone on to facilitate conversations about ending civil wars, transforming the food system, and pretty much everything else in between.

Adam is amazingly honest and open about how he looks back at his past books and sees them as not just incomplete, but sometimes dangerously incomplete. So, read Power and Love, Collaborating with the Enemy, Transformative Scenario Planning, and Solving Tough Problems (all amazing books) with a grain of salt...or just get Facilitating Breakthrough!

It’s all about 5 key pairs of polarities in transformational, collaborative work and it’s an eye-opener. As you’ll hear, many of the panel members had an eye-opening moment, as I did, around the idea of Vertical and Horizontal facilitation.

Vertical and Horizontal Facilitation

In the opening quote, Adam points out that Vertical and Horizontal facilitation are two poles of a polarity. And like all good polarities, the key is to hold them lightly and dance between them mindfully.

Vertical Facilitation is focused on singularity: We have the right answer, and a right answer can be found and advocated for.

Horizontal Facilitation is focused on multiplicity: We each have our own answer, our own view, and there is no right path.

As Adam says...the “bad guy” isn’t one or the other pole of the polarity...it’s choosing one over the other.

I also deeply loved that Adam makes clear that the work of the Facilitator mirrors the work of the group.

Adam points out (on p.70 of his book) that:

A facilitator can only help participants if they, like participants, move back and forth between bringing their experience and also listening and adjusting to the needs of the situation

Again: it’s not about choosing verticality (finding a single answer) or horizontality (exploring multiplicity)...it’s about the opening and emergence created when we shift from one side of the polarity to the other. Can we move between Inquiring (the move to the horizontal) and Advocating (which shifts to the vertical)?

Complex situations rarely have solutions that can readily and easily be identified and advocated for. So, finding a path through truly complex challenges requires careful and artful shifting between these two modes of Vertical and Horizontal.

I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did, and that you check out Adam’s recent book, Facilitating Breakthrough.

If you want to take a deep dive into mastering facilitation and leading conversations through complexity, check out my Facilitation Masterclass. The next 12-week cohort starts in February. Learn more here.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

Go to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links

Facilitating Breakthrough, by Adam Kahane

Reos Partners

Adam Kahane on The Conversation Factory

Recently, I’ve been reading a book called “Ethic of Excellence” by Ron Berger. He teaches teachers about how to invoke pride in students, to invite them to work through community engagement and thoughtful feedback, and multiple drafts of work. Check out his classic short video called “Austin’s Butterfly” here.

He asserts that thoughtful feedback (ie critique) is essential to making great work, which he also asserts is the whole point of life: Make great things.

He boils a philosophy of critique down to three principles:

Be Kind

Be Specific

Be Helpful

I wanted to bring together three of my favorite leaders to have a roundtable conversation about leading a culture of critique, and to open up about how to bring these ways of working together to life at work.

Aaron Irizarry has been on this podcast before, with his co-author of “Discussing Design” Adam Connor. He’s the Senior Director of Servicing Platforms Design at Capital One and is a deep, deep thinker on this subject. 

Aniruddha Kadam recently left LinkedIn, where he was a Senior Design Manager. He’s also an Advisor at Rethink HQ, which recently released an excellent guide to leading critique. 

One of my favorite points in that guide is: Make it clear what you are NOT asking for feedback on! 

And the roundtable is rounded out by the amazing and delightful

Christen Penny, who is a Design Educator & Community Builder and leads the Design Education team at Workday, an enterprise cloud application for finance, HR, and planning. 

I wanted to open with Christen’s quote about culture change being challenging, because it’s critical to have empathy for ourselves and others as we try to facilitate and lead change. 

Creating rituals around critique takes time. Getting people to lean into the discomfort takes effort. Building psychological safety doesn’t come for free.

We should remind ourselves that we’re asking people to lean into discomfort - to run into the fire.

Ron Berger’s perspective is ultimately the goal: 

We want our work and our organization’s work to be excellent. And we need outside feedback to make that possible. Critique before a launch is a lot less painful than realizing a missed opportunity after we hit “send”.

There is so much goodness in this conversation! I hope you take the time to absorb it all.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions. I sent the transcript to Rashmi so she could pull out what she needed from the conversation.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links and Questions:

Aaron Irizarry, Sr. Director, Servicing Platforms Design at Capital One  is here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaroni/

Adam Connor & Adam Irizarry on a way-back episode: Designing a Culture of Critique

Aniruddha Kadam, Advisor at Rethink HQ, formerly Design at LinkedIn  is here:

 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aniruddhakadam/

Rethink HQ Critique guide: https://www.rethinkhq.com/design-critique/leading-effective-design-critiques

Christen Penny, Design Educator @Workday is here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christenpenny/

Some questions that guided our conversation:

Why is Critique important?

Why is a culture of Critique important?

What are the barriers to cultivating a culture of critique?

What are best practices on the individual, team and org levels to invite more critique?

The Conversation Factory book club is an experiment I’ve been running for a few months now. I’m experimenting with deeper conversations and collaborations with the subscribers of the Conversation Factory Insiders group as well as working to go deeper with some of the ideas that have been shared on the Podcast.

This is a round-table conversation with Fred Dust, author of Making Conversation, with a few special guests from the Conversation Factory Insiders group. If you haven’t listened to the interview I did with Fred OR read the book, I think you can still enjoy the conversation.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 too!

Links:

Making Conversation by Fred Dust

Debt, the First 5000 Years by David Graeber

Otto Scharmer's Presencing Institute

I'm really excited to share my conversation with Kat Vellos, an amazing designer of experiences. 

Today we talk about the art of intentionality and the power of hearing yourself say something you've never said before. We also dive deep into some of the amazing insights in her book, "We Should Get Together: The secret to cultivating better friendships”

One of the things that I loved from the book was Kat's powerful metaphor about "hydroponic friendship," and how you can create a supercharged connection through intentional vulnerability and shared experiences. 

She draws on her long-time experience as a facilitator and designer to create what for me was one of the big "Aha!" moments: hydroponic friendship requires a container, and that's one of the things that leaders can do to design experiences: They can create the container. 

A container can be the question that starts the conversation, the invitation to the party. In Improv, it’s called the “Magic Circle” - the place where new rules and ways of being apply, the “game world”.

While Kat's book is about designing friendship in our lives, she points out that connection in one part of our lives leads to connection in all parts of our lives. We’re experiencing loneliness and disconnection not only in our everyday lives but at work ...and work is where we spend a lot of time.

Kat and I unpack four powerful facets of leadership: 

One: the ability to design experiences - the ability to bring people together to have a shared, transformative conversation.

Two: the ability to be flexible on outcomes while still being aligned on a larger goal. This is one of the most powerful Design Thinking mental models: focusing on needs instead of solutions.

Three: We also explore an absolutely fundamental capacity of leadership - the ability to listen and connect with people, deeply. 

Four: Kat also points out that actually doing something with what you’ve heard is the last, most crucial component of leading and caring for a team.

I'm thrilled to have connected with Kat, and excited to share her work with you. I highly recommend reading her book "We Should Get Together" and its addendum, "Connected from Afar," which is filled with ways to create more intentional connection in your life and your work - it was written during the height of the pandemic, so the tools are all zoom-friendly.

Also, make sure you check out the links below to some of her other projects, and to her amazing post on 40-plus alternatives to "How are you?" with different versions for work and everyday life. Enjoy the show!

LINKS

Kat's Alternatives to "How are you"

Kat's Website

We Should Get Together by Kat Vellos

The problem with how are you: brightsiding!

Inspiration

Friends: Understanding the Power of our Most Important Relationships: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W4XPK7G/

https://www.antionettecarroll.design/

https://www.creativereactionlab.com/

The Conversation Factory book club is an experiment I’ve been running for a few months now. I’m experimenting with deeper conversations and collaborations with the subscribers of the Conversation Factory Insiders group as well as working to go deeper with some of the ideas that have been shared on the Podcast.

This is the first prototype, that I ran a few months back with two Alums of the Facilitation Masterclass, Meredith England and Jenn Hayslett. I won’t say more about them - they introduce themselves at the *end* of the episode... I like the idea of them just being trusted friends to you, because they are trusted friends to me!

If you haven’t listened to the episode where I interview Tyson Yunkaporta, the author of Sand Talk, about how Indigenous thinking can (and will!) save the world, I think you can still enjoy this episode...even if you haven’t read the book...although I think you should!

As Tyson says in his book:

“There are a lot of opportunities for sustainable innovation through the dialogue of Indigenous and non-Indigenous ways of living...the problem with this communication so far has been asymmetry - when power relations are so skewed that most communication is one way, there is not much opportunity for the brackish waters of hybridity to stew up something exciting.”

This is a powerful image, to have a real, two-way conversation, as equals, between modern and indigenous ways of thinking, and to allow something new to emerge from the turbid, brackish waters…This conversation is hopefully another positive step in that direction.

This conversation is a Yarn, in the Aboriginal sense of the word. As Tyson taught me, Yarning is the sharing of anecdotes, stories, and experiences from the lived reality of the participants. It’s the way that Aboriginal communities connect, learn and decide together. 

And actual Sand Talk is a part of Yarning. Sand Talk, the book, is grounded in a series of drawings, drawn, literally, on the ground, in the Sand.

Sand Talk, in another, more literal interpretation, is visual thinking as a grounding for a conversation. This kind of talk is something that I think is missing in nearly every kind of meeting...saying, "Can I draw this for you? This is what I am seeing. This is the way I am seeing what you are talking about right now.” ...and looking at those pictures of the world, together.

Most meetings are just a bunch of air talk instead of Sand Talk, and I would literally love more Sand Talk in more meetings.

That’s my rant for now. I hope you enjoy this conversation. 

If you're interested in supporting the podcast and potentially joining us for one of these book club conversations, subscribe to the Conversation Factory insider! In September we’re gathering to read and connect with past podcast guest Adam Kahane, to talk about his new book, Facilitating Breakthrough. It’s going to be awesome.

LINKS

Sand Talk, by Tyson Yunkaporta

Tyson Yunkaporta on The Conversation Factory

My guest is Jeanne Liedtka, Professor at the University of Virginia’s Darden School of Business and an absolute rockstar of Design Thinking. She’s the author of (most recently) Experiencing Design and joins me this episode to talk about getting started with Design Thinking and some pitfalls that can happen along the way as you move yourself and your organization towards not just doing design thinking but experiencing it - the road to mastery, moving past the surface level with Design Thinking.

Jeanne’s latest book Experiencing Design is organized around a powerful framework that separates Doing vs. Experiencing vs. Becoming. This frame clarifies the transformational journey of an individual as they engage more deeply with Design Thinking. 

If you want to deepen and expand your understanding of Design Thinking past the Stanford Design School Hexagons, I highly recommend Jeanne’s books. Her 2011 book, Designing for Growth, co-authored with Tim Ogilvy, was a crucial moment in my introduction to the power and breadth of Design Thinking.

Jeanne and I have both had this experience with folks we’ve worked with, and maybe you have had it happen to you: you take a workshop and a lightbulb clicks on in your head... You find a new way of working that you see limitless potential in, that you want to implement and share with others.

People say, "I wish my team, my organisation, could work this way. Where can I start?" 

And when you bring the tools and tips back to work, something falls flat…transforming how we work together is non-trivial. It’s not just about the tools - the doing. It’s about the mindsets - the experiencing and becoming.

Jeanne and I talk about getting started with the tools of Design Thinking, some of the pitfalls that happen along the way, and how learning in action is a really fundamental and challenging shift both for the individual innovator and also for the organisation as a whole.

Many people who I train in these new ways of working say their primary block is that others are not doing it too, that *everyone* isn’t trained in these tools. And while I’d love to train the whole organization, it’s not always possible, or even wise. My advice is usually, "Start really, really small, and do it in ways that no one can tell you no. Ask for forgiveness instead of permission." 

The ROI of DT

Jeanne and I also talk about the real ROI on DT. Organizations focus on the visible ROI of Design Thinking - what we will see- first the outputs, the templates, the workshops, and then the innovation they hope for - moving the needle in the business.

But the real transformational aspect of Design Thinking is the way people are changed by the activities - what they experience and what they become. (check out the show notes for images of Jeanne’s Iceberg model of the ROI of DT)

Design Thinking is, of course, doing activities like gathering data, identifying insights, establishing design criteria, generating ideas, prototyping, and experimenting...but each of them results in the individual person experiencing sense-making, alignment, and emergence - some of the real gold in Design Thinking.

And all the while, they are becoming more empathetic and confident, collaborative, comfortable with co-creation and difference, able to bring ideas to life, resilient, and adaptive. This is the more deep, more durable transformation that is possible with Design Thinking...this is the real ROI of DT.

MVC: Minimum Viable Competencies

One of Jeanne's really profound contributions in the book is the idea of "minimum viable competencies": the things we can look for in the people that we are trying to transform and bring on board to this new way of working. Can they listen to understand? Can they separate facts from interpretations of the facts? Are they comfortable with ambiguity? Can they respect other viewpoints? Check out Jeanne’s book for a comprehensive list of MVC and a survey to help you benchmark your organization’s skills.

Jeanne and I also dive into how Design Thinking catalyzes organizational change at the conversational level. For example, in the Emergence phase, she talks about thinking broadly about who you invite to the conversation, and she highlights requisite variety: the idea that the diversity of people in the conversation should match the complexity of the conversation, of the challenge we’re hoping to solve. 

Refer back to my interview with Professor and Conversational Cybernetics expert Paul Pangaro for a deeper dive into requisite variety and how it applies to conversation dynamics. Also check out my interview with Jason Cyr, a Design Executive at Cisco, where he shares similar reflections on diversity and coalition building in driving a Design Thinking transformation.

We also talked about how Design Thinking has a lot of tools, a lot of doings, that help with upfront discovery and testing, but when it comes to learning in action and alignment folks find it challenging to find turn-taking structures that help scaffold the process - in other words, they need facilitation skills: structures to help our conversations be productive: listening non-defensively to critique, exploring disconfirming data with curiosity, accepting imperfect data and moving on... these are not Design Thinking tools, these are conversation design tools. This is where DT bleeds into leadership and self-management.

Another point from our conversation that is really important is that different people have different experiences throughout the arc of the design thinking process. Jeanne has this wonderful diagram in her book about how the different DISC profiles of influencer, analyst, driver, and supporter will have different emotional arcs as they go through the Design Thinking process from beginning to end. I think it's really, really important to understand that we need to have empathy with all of our collaborators. We may have a great time with the upfront part of the process, like discovery, and have a really hard time during prototyping and testing. We need a diverse group of collaborators so that we can draw on their perspectives and balance our experience with theirs. 

It's important to push against our own biases and to continuously ask, "What kind of diversity is needed for this challenge?" For that, I highly recommend you listen to my conversation with Dr. Lesley-Ann Noel, who I spoke with earlier this year about Decolonizing Design Thinking. It's a really powerful conversation. 

It was a great pleasure to be able to sit down and talk with Jeanne Liedtka, and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did!

Links:

Jeanne's Website

Why Design Thinking Works

Jeanne's books

The Iceberg of DT ROI: from Jeanne’s interview with Mural: https://www.mural.co/roi

I am obsessed with culture, change and transformation…and always puzzling over how it really happens.

One thing I know for sure: Forcing change, telling people to change, doesn’t make it happen.

I think there are two ways to profoundly facilitate change. One is:

💫 ASKING PEOPLE QUESTIONS THAT SHIFT THE CONVERSATION.

When I talk about Conversational Leadership in my book, Good Talk, this is what I mean: We can transform how other people think, not by telling them how or what to think, but by framing and fostering a new conversation.

The other way is by:

💥FACILITATING EXPERIENCES THAT FOSTER AN “AHA” MOMENT.

This means, for me, asking a series of questions, and making space for conversations that bring people into a new mode of thinking - the other side of an “a-ha”.

This is why I love to say "an experience is worth a thousand slides" We can throw a thousand slides at a group and never see the shift we want to foster.

Recently, my friend Jeff Gothelf did a lovely write up of an experience I led for one of his clients, one of my favorite exercises: The vase and flowers game. It's always thrilling to see one's impact through someone else's eyes. My reflections and his reflections are both linked here.

Back in May I offered a free workshop to subscribers of to my Conversation Factory Insiders group walking through this exercise and a few others. I'd love to have you join that conversation...we meet every month to learn and grow together!

If you'd like to join me August 17th, I'll be leading this workshop again, sharing my favorite exercises to help coach leaders to deep "aha!" moments about crucial mindsets at the heart of Agility, Design Thinking and Jobs-to-be-done. Check it out here, and pay what you can to attend. 

Use the code Pod20 to get 20% off the workshop.

I’m so grateful Jeff came on the show to reflect on his journey, how key partnerships and relationships have been essential to his success, and to share some of the most powerful questions he asks leaders to shift their mindsets and thinking.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Support the Podcast and Get insider Access

https://theconversationfactory.com/conversation-factory-insider

Rabbi Tarfon said: The day is short, and the work is plentiful…It is not your duty to finish the work, but neither are you at liberty to neglect it.
(Pirkei Avot 2:15-16)

My conversation today with Jerry Colonna closes with him paraphrasing this powerful notion - and the work we are discussing is the work on yourself and the work to create a better world - one where everyone feels like they truly belong. In a world where many organizations are retreating from Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging initiatives, I’m grateful that Jerry is leaning into this conversation. I see the work of antiracism as firmly in the realm of what my peoples call Tikkun Olam, repairing the world.

It’s absolutely essential that men in positions of power and especially men who present as White, do not neglect this work. 

Jerry is a graduate of Queens College and a Brooklyn native.

Jerry helps people lead with humanity and equanimity. His unique blend of Buddhism, Jungian therapy, and entrepreneurial know-how has made him a sought-after coach and leader, working with some of the largest firms in the country.

In his work as a coach, he draws on his experience in Venture Capital as Co-founder of Flatiron Partners, one of the most successful early-stage investment programs. Later, he was a partner with J.P. Morgan Partners, the private equity arm of J.P. Morgan Chase.

As a partner with J.P. Morgan Chase, Jerry launched the Financial Recovery Fund with The Partnership for the City of New York, a $10 million-plus program aimed at creating grants for small businesses impacted by the attacks on the World Trade Center.

Along with a strong commitment to the nonprofit sector, Jerry is the author of two books: REBOOT: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up (2019) and REUNION: Leadership and the Longing to Belong. (2023)

Reboot was met with critical acclaim, stirring up a big question in the hearts and minds of people: “How have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don’t want?” Jerry’s second book builds on this question, asking us what benefit we get from the conditions we say we don’t want - the systems of oppression that those who have eyes to see, can see.

Reunion is a highly personal book that asks us all to examine our history of longing to belong - and the ways in which we have been excluded or excluded others.

Key Threads in the Conversation

We discuss Jerry’s Journaling practice and how it is an essential conversation he has with himself, each morning.

We explore what it means to be a “good man” - and how in his first book, REBOOT, he questioned whether he was a good man, while in REUNION, he built upon the assumption that he is a good man and explored (and expanded) what it means to be a good man in a world where there is division and polarization.

And I get Jerry to coach me on one of my favorite questions: understanding the disowned parts of ourselves, exploring the reasons behind disconnecting from them, and the importance of integrating them back without denying them - very much in line with the process of REUNION. All while working to authentically grow in ways that matter, without self-abuse or denial.

Those parts of ourselves we wrestle with wrestle back at us. Many leaders I coach want to be feel or been seen as more or less of some quality or another - they, like so many of us, feel they must be other than they are in order to belong.

In my experience, fighting against our parts without understanding and loving them is a losing battle. Jerry asks us to understand the stories behind our self doubt, and to honor the ways that part of us has sought to care for and protect us in the past.

I find great empathy and lovingkindness in spending time nurturing my denied parts and my clients do, too. I’m so grateful to absorb Jerry’s approach to self-integration, and to expand our inner work towards creating not just a life we love, but a world we want to live in.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Reboot

Jerry’s profile at Reboot

Some other solid interviews with Jerry:

On Being with Kista Tippett: Can you really bring your whole self to work?

Noah Kagan, from AppSumo, interviewing Jerry on being a better human and a better leader

Imagine a world in which all leaders feel and display a deep regard for others’ dignity. This is the world that Marilyn Gist, author of The Extraordinary Power of Leader Humility, is working hard to bring about. Mariyn is a Professor Emerita, Executive Programs and Center of Leadership Formation at Seattle University and also a member of the MG100 coaches...a group of the top 100 leaders in the world, convened by legendary executive coach Marshall Goldsmith. Check out my interviews with other MG100 rockstars like Ayse Birsel, author of Design the Life you love, Dorie Clark, author of *several* books, including the upcoming “Long Game” and most recently, Alisa Cohn, the top startup coach in the world, and the author of the upcoming “From Startup to Grownup”

Marilyn is working to redesign the conversation around leadership. Many folks, when they close their eyes and think “leader” , picture a light-skinned man in a dark suit, exuding alpha energy. Just do a google image search to check in with this out-moded vision of leadership.

Leaders lead. They take charge and show the way.

But leaders also need to listen, learn and understand the people they’re meant to be leading.

Marilyn has been teaching and coaching about leadership for decades and she wrote this book so that the world would stop overlooking what she calls “the one variable at the heart of leadership”

Marilyn and I dig into what Leader Humility is, what it means to have it, practice it, and live it, and practical ways to incorporate it into your work and life.

What’s at stake? In human terms, Marilyn points out the Gallup poll that suggests that only 36% of Employees Are Engaged in the Workplace. While that’s actually the highest it’s been in 20 years, since they started measuring it, it’s still really low. Gallup claims that about 14% percent of folks are actively disengaged (rather than just the 51% that is just regular-old disengaged).

On your next zoom call, look around...it might be possible that only a third of the people on the grid really care. Again, in human terms, that 60-ish percent of folks is a drag on the small percentage of folks who really care.

In financial terms, some estimate $500 billion in total losses in the US. In any one business, estimate 34% of the total salary roll. Yikes.

If you ask the average worker in the US if their leader cares about their culture

31% of leaders don’t think they have the culture they need to succeed. Their workers don’t even think they care! 9%of workers say the leadership in their organizations are very committed to culture initiatives, and 58% of respondents say that their leadership either takes no action regarding culture or are merely reactive instead of being proactive.

Marilyn suggests that workers want answers to three key questions from a leader:

1. Who are you? (Not your name - who are you really as a person? What do you stand for?)
2. Where are we going? (What is the bigger vision?)
3. And do you see me? (Am I just a cog in the wheel or do you see me at all?)

Also listen for a few of Marilyn’s Six Keys to Leadership Humility:

1. A balanced ego, 
2. Integrity
3. A compelling vision
4. Ethical strategies
5. Generous inclusion
6. A developmental focus.

Listen on to the halfway point of our conversation to hear Marilyn tell a powerful story of generous inclusion and the generous question that Satya Nadella, CEO of Microsoft used to turn the lone dissenter on a team into a supporter of an initiative. While it would be easy and, as Marilyn points out, defensible, to go with the majority sentiment, using the skills of leadership humility can be more powerful and durable than conventional leadership.

Support the Podcast and Get Insider Access
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Marilyn's Website (you can find links to her book there!)
Marilyn on Twitter

Reinvention is Building a Conversation with Dorie Clark
Designing the Life You Love with Ayse Birsel
The Art of Coaching with Alisa Cohn

 

This episode is a little different than most…Today I do some live-coaching for Rashmi Sharma, a Global HR executive and TedX speaker, on shifting what she wants to be known for, evolving what she wants to offer to the world and how her work can heal for others, while she heals herself.

I’m so grateful that Rashmi reached out to me for some coaching after we were both speaking at a virtual conference in Southeast Asia. As Rashmi has evolved as a leader, she wanted to do some deeper thinking about how she can evolve her thought leadership, and offer something to her community from a deeper place in herself. 

I really commend Rashmi’s courage in sharing her process with so much vulnerability. As you’ll hear in the conversation ahead, Rashmi and I talk about (although very indirectly) the ideas of sublimation - healing your own wounds through helping others.

We also dive deep into how she can hold space and create more depth in her conversations, as she interviews her community to understand what wellness and wholeness really means to them. 

Make sure you check out the show notes for Rashmi’s full notes reflecting on her insights from the coaching conversation, but, two that I want to highlight here are:

Using all of yourself to Lead

Joseph Campell famously said “it’s the privilege of a lifetime to be as you are”...

Finding and highlighting her phrase “use all of me to help people” was a golden nugget in the conversation. This is what Rashmi’s interest and work on wholeness and wellbeing is really about - allowing our whole selves to be accessed in our lives. So, it makes sense that Rashmi wants to do the same for herself!

Creating Depth in Conversations

One powerful way to create more depth is to go there yourself...Rashmi and I talk about asking and listening from a deeper place in herself.

We also highlight the idea that "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast," a motto from the Navy Seals. As she interviews her community to gain insights on her new area of focus, Rashmi realized that slowness and smoothness allows people to get comfortable and to think more deeply in her interviews. 

Slow and Smooth can mean slowing down your own voice, creating a little bit more space between your words, and it also means waiting a little bit between what they've said and your second question, your response. (Extra credit for not thinking about what you’re going to say or ask next while they’re talking!)

Slowing yourself down can help others slow down and connect. Active listening helps me really hear, and also helps my partner hear themselves. Depth in a conversation can be hard at high velocity. 

One piece of advice I shared with Rashmi as she prepared to head into her next round of community interviews was to simply take a deep breath and ask her partner to tell a story. Narratives can pull a conversation from a back-and-forth of questions and answers. Narratives can help you more deeply enter into the world of the person you’re talking to and hoping to get insights from.

I love to work with leaders trying to define their thought leadership, leaders trying to scale their impact and leaders working to transform their organizations. I only work with a handful of high-performing folks each year. If you’d like to reach out about coaching, head over to DanielStillman.com/coaching

Links from this episode:

Rashmi on LinkedIn

Rashmi’s TedX talk

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Support the Podcast and Get insider Access
https://theconversationfactory.com/conversation-factory-insider

In this episode, Glenn Fajardo joins me for a conversation about virtual rituals and their power to help us make sense of the virtual waters we are swimming in everyday. Glenn co-leads the immersive course Design Across Borders at the Stanford d.school, and is the co-author of Rituals for Virtual Meetings: Creative Ways to Engage People and Strengthen Relationships. His thoughts on ritual and using curiosity as a force for connection in virtual collaboration are just some of the must-listen moments.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes  and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also, check out http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order with Rev, my favorite tool for getting accurate transcripts for the podcast and automated transcripts for my coaching sessions. In full transparency, that’s an affiliate link, so I’ll get $10 if you give it a try, too!

What on earth would a podcast about designing human conversations, facilitation, leadership and organizational change have to learn from a coach and an expert on Food and Eating? Quite a lot, as it turns out! One of my favorite design thinking principles is to learn from “alternative worlds” - absorbing how other people and communities are solving similar problems in different contexts.

My guest, Alissa Rumsey, is a registered dietitian, nutrition therapist, certified intuitive eating counselor, and the author of Unapologetic Eating: Make Peace With Food and Transform Your Life.  

It’s always interesting to learn from reflective practitioners - people willing to think about how they do what they do. Alissa designs many human conversations in her work and life, from her coaching work to her group programs to her book, and the marketing thereof - a book is a conversation, after all. Alissa’s whole business is a series of conversations designed to shift the larger conversation about food and dieting.

Food and eating can be fraught topics, but Alissa's approach of connecting with and learning to trust your own body is inclusive, empowering, encouraging and wise. She places dieting in a much larger (and longer) conversation about historical racism and gender dynamics. At the core of Alissa’s work is an idea that is of deep interest to me: Interoception.

Interoception

Lately, I’ve been using this word in my coaching calls a lot, and it’s Alissa’s work that put it back at the top of my vocabulary. You might have heard the word proprioception: It’s how you can touch your fingers and toes with your eyes closed: You know where your body is, physically. Proprioception is sometimes described as almost a sixth sense, the sense of self-movement and body position. It’s essential for navigating the world in three dimensions, and survival.

But if proprioception is a sixth sense, there’s a seventh: Interoception: One’s sense of one’s internal state. When we say we feel fine, or feel sad, or angry or hungry, we’re interpreting a multitude of internal sensations and summarizing them into a simple word. It’s how we know what we need and start on the path of getting what we want in response to those needs.

When we feel sad, what are we feeling that lets us know that we are feeling sad? Where is it in your body? Think about that...and feel that!

When we’re hungry, it can be physical hunger (like when I do a 16 hour fast...I know that I’m really hungry at the end!) or “mouth hunger” ...like how it just feels GOOD to eat ALL the popcorn. Or it can be emotional hunger that we soothe through eating.

The challenge is that, unless we are attentive and aware of what’s really going on with ourselves, we can’t take care of ourselves, we can’t give ourselves what we really want and need...and we can’t grow. For example, for me, getting a massage is a much better way for me to soothe my emotional hunger...because I can tell you, no amount of popcorn will do it!

In leadership, facilitation, coaching and transformation work, we need to learn to take deep care of ourselves since we are constantly caring for others. 

It’s only when we give ourselves real nourishment, that we can care for and nourish others.

Like the sign in the airplane says “Put your own oxygen mask on first”.

The Work is in You & The Leader you want to be

If you listen back to my episodes with Alisa Cohn (a different spelling and a very different type of coach!) she talks about how “the work is in you”...the idea that as we grow and develop, we have to find new resources in ourselves: ways to be firm and decisive, to be bigger and the CEO others need us to be...while being and staying true to ourselves. As Amy Jen Su (Author of The Leader You Want to Be) said in our conversation about leadership development coaching, “we need to find our own North Star”.

I truly believe that Interoception is an absolute key to personal growth and transformation from the inside out.

Also..we all eat and try to diet, to control ourselves...so stop! Eat ALL the popcorn and mac-n-cheese if you want to...and listen to your body when it says you have had enough.

The Body Keeps Score

If you can learn to listen to your inner signals,you’ll know when your gut tells you your client is gaslighting you, or if the deck isn’t actually right (versus all the changes everyone wants to make!), or when to say what needs to be said. 

In my coaching work, I have to hear the voices in my head and trust that sometimes, it’s intuition...and sometimes I’m getting ahead of the conversation - that rushing feeling in my stomach could be my excitement to share my insights instead of bringing them out of the person in front of me. It’s a dance.

I like to joke: If we don’t listen to our intuition, it just might pack up and head off to someplace where it’s more appreciated. So, welcome your Interoception, your body wisdom, and give it a place of pride. Honor it!

Alissa’s book, Unapologetic Eating could also be called “Unapologetic Living”...if you want more of that in your life and work, check out her book. I’ve enjoyed it.

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Links from the episode:

Alissa's Website

Unapologetic Eating

Fearing the Black Body

The Beauty Myth