I’ve been trying to get Tim Burgess to join me on The Art of Longevity for at least 10 seasons. Ultimately, a new Charlatans album, We Are Love, seemed like the right reason to finally do it. 

I’ve said it before, but I’m genuinely amazed and thrilled about how many ‘old bands’ have put out a recent album that is up there with their very best work. Suede, The Manics, Nada Surf, Tindersticks et. al. And I’m delighted to now include The Charlatans in that club. The band’s new album, #14 no less, is wonderful. Confident, varied, suitably different but very much representative, it’s a thoughtful and entertaining record throughout, containing some of the band’s best songs for ages; notably both the lead singles, opener Kingdom Of Ours, Appetite, For The Girls, You Can’t Push The River and, Tim’s own choice - Out On Our Own. But honestly, this is another cracking end-to-end listen with none of the filler that has perhaps been there in the past on some Charlatans offerings (along with all those above mentioned bands). 

“I’m really confident that it will seep in. We’re enigmatic and thugs as well. Some of it bangs you over the head but it has an emotional impact that I think, gets there”. 

]Like many people of a certain vintage, The Charlatans have been one of those reassuring presences in my life over the years. Perhaps never the best or the biggest, The Charlatans longevity story has been to simply keep on keeping on, eventually unfolding into a slow-burning surprise journey towards British indie rock legend. You may not have predicted it back in the early days, despite a couple of genuine early hits, but when a band finds its formula and works at it, the miracles come later. 

Some early success in 1990 brought the top 5 hit “The Only One I Know”, but it wasn’t a linear rise from that point on. By album five, Telling Stories (1997) the band had a genuine classic album on their hands, including the legendary indie hit “One To Another” (which new single “Deeper And Deeper” nods to brilliantly). With that momentum, the Charlatans crossed the rubicon into longevity, establishing themselves as one of the more enduring British indie bands, with genuine peaks of popular success (three UK number one albums). 

When I asked Tim the secret to the band’s longevity, he’s pretty clear with the answer:

“The reason why people are into older bands now is that they don’t all sound the same. Now, everyone sounds the same but has to invent a persona to be different, whereas we [old bands] all are, effortlessly different”.

From the get go, the band’s instrumentation, with the late Rob Collins’s Hammond organ at its core, gave The Charlatans a distinctive fusion of indie rock, soul, psychedelia and dance music. But with due respect to the band’s sound, much of the enduring fondness for the band comes from Tim Burgess himself. His vocal style is sunny but with underlying yearning, his style as a frontman effortlessly optimistic and embracing. And while Burgess remains best known as a singer and frontman of this band, he has also pursued a range of solo, collaborative and curatorial projects that make him something of a “renaissance man” and, as I suggest in our conversation, something of a National Treasure. 

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“I don't know where I'm going from here, but I promise it won't be boring.” Those words were spoken at one time by David Bowie, and thus are gospel to us here on The Art of Longevity podcast. Fortunately, some bands still live by that same philosophy. For evidence, we revisit the world of Suede. 

Suede has refused to become boring. Somehow, this band of 40 years have gone the other way - more exciting and visceral than ever. Suede are not hanging about to become their own echo! Albums like Autofiction and now, its immediate follow-up Antidepressants are not just the proverbial ‘return to form’ type records. They are nothing short of a reinvention. Mat Osman, co-founder member with Brett Anderson and bass player, shares his views on the new Suede record:

“It feels like Autofiction on steroids. If Autofication was a TV show, Antidepressants is the film version. We took everything more widescreen with this record”. 

However, for Osman - you can forget about that old cliche of a band making music for themselves and hoping the world will agree (that’s what Rick Rubin has been telling us with The Creative Act: A Way of Being and to be fair, more than a few artists have told me it works for them. It's not for Suede. Instead, the band’s creative mission has been guided by their fans - their reactions at live shows, to the band directly, but also the band’s own interpretation of what a Suede audience really wants. 

“A band without an audience isn’t a band. It’s a hobby,” Osman declares. That emotional connection is Mat’s affirmation - fan tattoos of favourite songs, tears at gigs, and stories about Suede songs at weddings. This fan connection is Suede’s compass in the band’s 4th career phase. And so we return to a key central theme of longevity; usefulness to people. 

“As I get older, those moments where someone says, ‘That song helped me,’ mean everything,” he reflects. “That’s what I’m proud of. There’s a community feel [between the band and the fans] that becomes more and more important. 

It’s evident from this ‘Revisited’ episode, that Mat Osman and Brett Anderson have a fair degree of telepathy on many things - a shared vision that no doubt has added focus to Suede’s current run of creative form. They even agree on the most ironic thing about where Suede has arrived; that they were the least likely band to survive in the first place. 

“Longevity is not something we strived for, it just happened as a side effect of our bloody mindedness and passion for making music”.

They still have it. 

Season 12 of The Art of Longevity is Powered by Bang & Olufsen. Long copy can be found on www.songsommelier.com.

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A new album release by your favourite band is an important event. Thank god for this. A new album is a reprieve, an escape, a comfort and a joy. Of course, to experience all these emotions you do have to take the time to really listen. I particularly love that a record has the power to be your own personal time machine. When I first played back the new My Morning Jacket album, simply titled is, I was transported back in time to the late 70s, back to my childhood. A time of albums on vinyl or cassette, played on ‘music centres’ (that’s what we called hi-fi systems in Northern England back then). A time when ELO or Supertramp, or The Stranglers or Queen, would make albums consisting of singles with accessible catchy melodies mixed with more exotic, experimental songs that were probably marked during the recording process as ‘album tracks’. A time when you could expect each and every album released by a band to have a different, distinctive character from the last one. It was a time of greater attention and patience and a slower, simpler time of life. 70s memories are especially magical for me, so a soundtrack courtesy Jim James & co is a total treat. 

It isn’t fashionable music that My Morning Jacket creates. Indeed, their alchemical meld of alt-country rock, alternative country/Americana and late era Beatles-esque psychedelia make MMJ sound always like a band out of time. That’s just how Jim James intended it. Music perfect for sucking you into their timeless orbit. And no real desire beyond that. It’s the way Jim James operates these days. Put your best work out there into the universe and then what will be will be:

“Of course we all want our work to be successful, me included. But I’ve ridden the rollercoaster so many times now, I know the outcome is always the same, whether people like a record or not, I still had to deal with my own depression and self loathing. External validation will not fill that hole, you can only do it yourself, love yourself and try to see things more clearly”. 

MMJ have never shied away from dissonance, off kilter time signatures and ear-splitting guitar work, but there is always the emergence of beauty from the noise. This abruptly contrasting style takes a backseat on is. Instead, the songs are what matters most on this album. Legendary rock producer Brendan O'Brien (Pearl Jam, Springsteen and ACDC) has pushed Jim James and his band to be even more in service of the songs than they have been before. But the melodies and grooves are so strong, it works wonders such that the album stands up as one of their best so far. Pretty good show after 25 years and 10 LP records.

And Jim James loves LP records:

“I love the album as an art form. It’s important as artists to do what you love, and don’t worry about the world and what the world’s gonna do. It’s cool even if people love one song, but if they are gonna take the journey of the album, that’s my dream. We aspire to make music in that format, but even if one person loves one song, that's still so awesome”. 

Yes, yes it is. 

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Great bands and great records shouldn't come down to a competition, but by way of bringing it to your attention, Tindersticks’ Soft Tissue was my choice of 5th best album of 2024. I’m touched that Stuart Staples seems genuinely pleased to be on the list. 

Alexi Petridis’ review of that record in the Guardian was so good I read it a few times. 

“If the overall message seems to be about noticing beauty in small things as a bulwark against the ghastliness of 21st-century life”.

That captures the mood of the album in precious few words. I found myself drawn into Soft Tissue…seduced by it really. From the opening song, New World, and its topline “I won’t let my love become my weakness” it got me, and the rest of the record buried itself into my brain even though I couldn’t pinpoint why. But as Stuart Staples attests, the best music connects with us in a way that is beyond analysis:

“If a record sets things off, gets you searching for something or looking for meaning, then it's doing its job. If we understand it too much, it's kind of dead, whereas if there is mystery to it, space to try and understand it, then it’s alive”. 

Tindersticks music is beyond analysis but that hasn’t stopped me consuming everything written about the band over the years with almost as much hunger as their music. What makes them such a well kept secret? In the book Long Players, author Eimear McBride’s essay on the second Tindersticks album (the band is rare in every sense, including the dubious accolade of being a band with two self-titled albums, the debut and its follow-up). 

“There’s a true, if disconcerting, magic to the three way wedding of the album’s beautiful, intricate scoring, the cigarette-stained, shame-filled intimacy of the lyrics and Stuart Staples’ deep, dark, world-weary singing voice”. 

If the best artists create a world in which their work can come alive and their fans can escape from the humdrum of life and the worries of the world, then Tindersticks are the perfect example. But beware those who enter, this world is not perfect and to overuse typical adjectives, it is dark and as McBride attests, disconcerting. It’s also strangely comforting.

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Doves have yet to have a big 'moment', but in the music business of 2025, those moments no longer even exist. Instead, bands of ‘modest success’ must crack on, do their best work, put it out in the world and hope people take some notice. If, as a result, they can reconnect with fans, get out on the road, and make another record, then that is what counts as success. Carrying on regardless. But, Doves have also had success by any hard industry measure. Hit singles (two UK top 10), sold out tours and no less than a trio of number one albums (The Last Broadcast, Some Cities, The Universal Want). 

“Apparently we are [successful]. Apparently we are the most underrated band ever. I do have gratitude. Even though we’ve been dealt some pretty bad cards, we’re also appreciated, so that levels that one up”. 

And so Doves soldier on, more resilient than most bands would be in the face of such a constant stream of setbacks. That's partly due to adaptability (which other bands could sell out a tour, sans frontperson?), positive attitude and, importantly, being self-reliant. The fine new album Constellations For The Lonely is a full-scale DIY job, self-produced and released under their own label Doves Music Limited. In a world where ‘independent artists’ seem more dependent than ever on industry gatekeepers, Doves can get it done on their own. Well, almost - Constellations is distributed through the new distribution arm EMI North. 

Better still, the whole project is influenced by the 1982 classic sci-fi noir Blade Runner - as fine a cultural reference point as you need for escaping from the pressures of the outside world, while letting them become part of the bigger story. “When we made the album, it was 4-5 hours away from reality each day, a safe space away from all the shit. That’s what got us through it”. 

It’s another creative high for a band that is definitely, somehow, underrated. Yet at the heart of the band is a creative power that they can rely on, even when they operate as three or two. That’s something Jez is both confident but humble about. 

“I tell you who is there for us…the music. I know it sounds cheesy, but it has always been there as a constant, and a guiding light. I know that’s a cliche but cliches do have a tendency to be true”. 

Let’s not call Constellations For The Lonely a comeback then, but perhaps this is the start of Doves being free to go where they want, knowing that their fans will follow, that they will get some radio support, and that the recognition and critical acclaim will keep on coming. 

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If the route to longevity is to be bendable into the music industry’s rules for success, The Lumineers really shouldn’t be here at all. It makes no sense. Their stripped back, rootsy ‘Americana’ (if that’s what we can call it) took hold for reasons not usually listed in the music industry rulebook. Instead, their unlikely ascendancy into the realms of being a major league band, by any measure, has happened through the real route to success: trial and error, hard graft, writing songs from the heart and performing them with vulnerability. And yes, when that led to big breaks, like supporting U2 on the massive anniversary tour for The Joshua Tree, they didn’t blow it. 

You don’t have to be a phenomenon but do have to be a pro. In today’s music business, you can’t phone in the work and expect a career in return. 

Wesley Schultz and Jeremiah Fraites have thought about it all, a lot. They know their strengths and weaknesses, their inspirations, and how to tap them. Tom Petty, Neil Young, Leonard Cohen and Radiohead are there in the mix. Indeed, you could say that The Lumineers self-awareness seems to be the real root of their ultimate success and longevity. That, and treating the work as sacred. As Fraites puts it:

“Even to make one song is impossible. It’s so much work. One song is already a pain in the ass, before you talk about doing a full LP.”

As Fraite’s friend and British booking agent Alex Bruford told him once “everybody wants Radiohead’s career”. And it’s a truism. The artist who doesn’t compromise creatively, can take a 180 degree turn if they want to, can meld their influences but render those as something unique to them. Artists that can call on the tradition of the song but dress it in different ways, adding something to the DNA of popular music. And do it all with success and recognition, and no need for hype. Dignity intact. 

It’s likely then, that a new generation of artists and bands coming up in today’s fractured and frantic music business, bands that really want success but don’t want to be moulded by the industry like plasticine, 

might just be telling themselves that they want a career like The Lumineers. 

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This episode is brought to you in collaboration with War Child. 

This is a special episode of The Art of Longevity celebrating vinyl and the ongoing importance of vinyl and the album form to artists and to music fans. 

In this short audio documentary you’ll hear some thoughts and stories from renowned musicians like Ben Folds, Gaz Coombes, Interpol, Laura Veirs, Alela Diane, Crowded House, Eels, Ron Sexsmith, Tindersticks, Feeder, Goo Goo Dolls, John Grant and Brett Anderson of Suede. 

The Art of Longevity returns shortly, meanwhile please listen and DONATE to War Child NOW! 

Thank you for listening and donating. 

For more visit https://www.songsommelier.com/artists-on-vinyl-documentary-1

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There are always some central pillars to a great party playlist - songs that just work. One of those is the Joan As Police Woman song Holy City. The song is always an instant hit at parties, guaranteed to elicit excitable inquiries as to “who is this?”. That instant reaction. The song is a #1 hit in my family - one of those multi-generational family life tracks.

But if Holy City is instantly likeable, with a great beat and a strong poppy hook, it’s somewhat uncharacteristic of Joan’s music, which is mostly the opposite: seductive slow burns that take their time to become loved. It’s what Joan herself refers to as the eternal quandary of a life making alternative and original songs in today’s music business.

“A lot of people are just really busy and they don’t have time to figure out what this incredible new music is that might require 10 listens until you’re hooked”.

Then again, after some time away from Joan’s music, it was another of her singles that I was immediately drawn to, the smouldering, unhurried jazzy ballad Full Time Heist, from her new album Lemons, Limes and Orchids. This song, written as a cynical ode to one of life’s chancers, is my song of 2024 and enters into the canon of my all time favourite songs. That’s two for Joan and makes her increasingly one of my very favourite artists. 

Joan is the ultimate collaborator - entirely comfortable with creating in the moment no matter who she works with - and some of her collaborators have been bona fide music royalty, including Tony Allen, Rufus Wainwright and Damon Albarn (and also David Sylvian although their recording sessions have yet to see the light of day - something I only discovered after my chat with Joan). 

But an effective collaborator as she is, Joan makes her own records, literally. Right from the start her 2007 debut Real Life was entirely self-funded, subsequently shopped around to labels that would be willing to take it to market. She had a little bit of help for her first E.P. from - of all places an independent record shop in Derby, England. Indeed, store owner Tom Rose of Reveal Records created his own label just to get Joan’s first songs on the market. Tom happens to be Joan’s manager to this day. 

Going back through the catalogue, it is striking just how high the quality of Joan’s solo output is, most notably her stunning Sophomore record To Survive (2008), the ultra-cool collaboration with Tony Allen and Dave Okumu The Solution Is Restless (released during the pandemic in 2021). And now Lemons, Limes and Orchids - yet another creative high water mark for an artist whose songs have a classic, timeless quality. 

The obvious question is how does such an uncompromising, singula artist even survive in today’s content-flooded music business?

“I practice daily to avoid the whole ‘compare and despair’. Keep the focus on myself and make the best music I possibly can and then I’m a happy person”. 

If she is happy, we should be too - and lucky to have her making such wonderful music. 

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Of all the bands to grace our company on The Art of Longevity, Keane have ridden the music industry rollercoaster through all the stations of the cross: struggle, success, excess, disintegration and if you’re lucky - enlightenment. Tim Rice-Oxley doesn't hesitate for a moment:

“Yeah, absolutely. Our struggle was quite long and our disintegration was quite quick, although we clung on effectively for quite a while. I feel like now we are in a more positive and exciting place than the day before Hopes & Fears came out”.

It’s easy to forget in these days when the monoculture is a dot in the rear view mirror, that Keane really went huge: five consecutive number one UK albums (album six ‘Cause & Effect’ was number two). Their early success carried an unstoppable momentum. Yet behind the sheen of that success, as quickly as their second album ‘Under The Iron Sea’, the band was imploding - a combination of exhaustion and the pressure of heightened expectations causing an emotional disconnection between bandmates - a difficult thing to handle for old school friends.

Every band of longevity should make a book and/or a film. It’s what fans in today’s crowded music landscape deserve really - the scarcity of access to the inner circle, whether that’s present or past. And for Keane themselves it sounds like the book has served a therapeutic purpose in a way.

“We’re insanely hard on ourselves, to the point where it’s not good. We’d find any feedback and take it as a stick to beat ourselves up with. But we’re finally at a point now where we can say that we are quite good at what we do, proud of our music and our place in the world”.

As Keane heads back into the studio next year, the band is far better equipped than when they headed to Sanger’s French farmhouse 20 years ago to make their debut - both emotionally and technically. The only problem is that they have set the bar high when it comes to track record. The creative ambition and self-critical muscles of this band are no doubt twitching away.

“I know I’m going to have to write a lot of songs to get to the magic. One of the things bands struggle with is quality control - knowing the difference between what’s good and what’s great. There are millions of people out there trying to write songs as well so you have to raise your voice about everything else out there”.

On page 35 of the book Hopes & Fears: Lyrics and History are two lists on the page of a ring bound notepad, titled The OK Computer Test. 

“There’s no way we thought we were making the next OK Computer but you’ve got to try. You ask yourself “how do our heroes do it”. But if we knew then what we know now, we might have put ‘Somewhere Only We Know’ at number five instead of first”. 

For the next Keane record I suggest they apply “The Hopes and Fears Test”, just to make sure their new material is up to scratch. 

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What happens when you are a cult band (indeed when Pitchfork refers to you as “the ultimate cult band”) and you make the most accessible, most ‘mainstream’ album of your career?

It’s a relevant question for many bands these days, because emerging from cult status to the mainstream (what’s left of it) is a very valid path to longevity and success. Look at Nick Cave for example. He’s done alright.

But I can’t think of a better example right now, than Los Campesinos!

With All Hell, they have made the kind of record that can win over new fans, which isn’t easy on your 7th album. If we whisper it quietly, they may have even made a classic album.

Only time will tell, but for now the band is enjoying basking in a little bit of well deserved success, including an 8.5 on Pitchfork, hitting number 14 on the UK album chart and sold out UK venues - bigger ones than they have played before. Not quite a jump from cult status to daytime radio playlists, but nonetheless, progress. Los Campesinos! have just found a route to a larger audience.

“We’ve always looked for validation elsewhere, but to achieve the best reviews of our career and chart position [for All Hell] is very flattering and something we appreciate more now than at any other point in our career.”

It remains to be seen if the glut of year end ‘best albums of’ lists remember to include All Hell, if indeed they considered the record a suitable candidate. Well, it’s on my list. What’s more, the vinyl package is lovely (apart from the 45 RPM but we’ll let that one go for now). 

Nothing better though, than a band in the enlightenment phase:

“When we formed we were very much ‘indier than thou. Very pretentious. We were very prescriptive to what being in a band should be. Authenticity has always been very important to us but now, our approach to releasing music, playing live shows - we’ve become the band we always should have been. So now I can be smug!” 

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Artists have a duty to claim that their most recent project is the best work they have ever done. But what if it’s true? I’m so taken with David Gray’s new album Dear Life (released January 2025) - and so too is David of course - that it seemed churlish to dwell too much on his earlier career success, no matter just how definitive that was.

“I’m always all in with the new stuff. If I wasn’t I would just retire. It’s always a moment of total commitment. I like the danger of writing and recording. There is gold in them there hills and you have got to go and find it”.

Dear Life is led by rhythmic singing and short-story style writing, underpinned by unusual song arrangements. But the songs catch on, almost every one a ‘grower’. It’s one of those records that is shot-through with reflection, philosophy, mortality. You could say it’s a mid-life record and there is nothing wrong with that, given how well it stands up to his classic breakthrough work White Ladder and his first decade of popular success.

“I feel like these songs are strong enough to go shoulder to shoulder with the big songs”.

His instincts this time around, are good. When David Gray takes to the stage on his extensive 2025 tour to play songs like Leave Taking, Fighting Talk and (recent single) Plus & Minus, he will not need to precursor them with an apology.

The understated quality of the past 10 years' work is a run of form that may have gone unnoticed by the music industry mainstream, but also suggests that Gray has been building to a head of steam. If this was 2004, he would be releasing Dear Life into the world as a surefire classic album. But here we are in 2024 - algorithm powered and neck deep in social clips. Releasing a magnificent record into the content void of today guarantees nothing. Especially when you are running your own small record label as Gray now is.

“You’ve got to go on a cookery show just to get the opportunity to play a song for two minutes.” 

White Ladder was one of those CDs everybody had. It came at the end of the CD era, one of the last albums that achieved cultural ubiquity. Lest we forget, the record was self-funded (on a budget of £5,000) and self-released. Inventing a sub-genre is one thing, and with White Ladder, David Gray did that - folktronica was the label the music press attached to it. But there was much more to it than that. In a sense, Gray pioneered bedroom pop, 20 years before it became huge on Spotify. Rex Orange County, Yellow Days, Alfie Templeman and a whole generation of others owe something to him. But his huge success with White Ladder will always leave him with something to prove. 

“The disaprovers are waiting every time you do something new. But I’m a very determined person. But then I love doing what I do. There is no trout farm for me. I just love doing this thing. And it’s getting richer and richer. There is always more to put into song”. 

He is literally making music for Dear Life. It shows. 

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My guest for this pilot episode is Gale Paridjanian of (the magnificent) Turin Brakes.

If you listen to the song Underdog (Save me) by Turin Brakes, it will tell you a lot about how Gale plays and what he brings to a song with his guitar playing. Gale is an underrated and understated guitar god - as all Turin Brakes fans know. Olly Knights, singer in Turin Brakes describes Gales playing as “the real deal since the very beginning", and also “band cheat code” which Gale & I explore further in this conversation.

Gale's choice of guitar is a Charvel electric-acoustic model from his days working in the acoustic department of one of the music shops in London’s famous Denmark Street, for which he paid something like £469 (roughly £1,200 in today’s money).

“It’s got my sound in it. If you plug it in it just sounds like The Optimist and that’s our sound. It’s a battle to play but there’s something about how it sounds when it’s recorded. It sounds like me”.

An inexpensive one-off model, in Gales hands, the Charvel became the signature sound for Turin Brakes - Gales says “it feels more honest the more acoustic we are” - and it’s true - the band were pioneers of the acoustic-led pop that followed, paving the way for singer-songwriters like Newton Faulkner, even Ed Sheeran. But Gale and the band are on fire, still. 

His own influences include The Stones, Chuck Berry, Chris Whitley and Derek Trucks. 

Gale plays some of his own and Turin Brakes fans’ favourite pieces - a lot from the band’s debut LP The Optimist - and tells stories of the band, his own life as a guitar player and the Charvel he holds dear, even if it is falling apart. Let’s hope he gets it serviced soon. 

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Now well over a decade in the music industry, Tom Odell is motoring through a successful second phase as an independent artist. His recent albums have leaned into more introspective, personal material that has resonated so much that he now attracts bigger audiences to bigger shows (an arena tour is forthcoming), and continues to grow a very large base of listeners on the streaming platforms. 

Indeed, he sits comfortably (and ironically) within Spotify’s elite of Top 200 streaming artists. He is in the 0.01% of working artists, the “Billions Club”, a place he never set out to be but nevertheless, belongs. Odell broke free of the major label system (not his choice at the time but transformational as it turned out) three albums ago, to find a whole new level of creative and commercial success. Most of all, with his seventh studio album A Wonderful Life on the horizon, the singer-songwriter has found a renewed sense of purpose. 

His time touring with artists like Billie Eilish and the Lumineers has given him a first-hand glimpse of the very top tier of success in a changed industry, a secret sauce that may well rub off on him more as a result of those experiences. Odell is a hopeful soul. In a world of quantity over quality, 100,000 songs a day and AI about to increase that number ad infinitum, he has a strong idea about where a solution may lie to all the madness. “I really have faith in the listener. I believe people will find the good stuff. And when I look at what’s big right now, most of the time I go, ‘Yeah, that’s really good, that’s why it's big”. 

As A Wonderful Life gets closer to release, Odell isn’t looking to chase the numbers, or meet any industry expectations. He’s following the music. “I didn’t get into this to be big,” he says. “I got into it because I love it. And I still do.” His Spotify biog says it all. No flowery press copy, no AI generated summary, no self-penned promo, just 33 million monthly listeners and a simple keyboard smile emoji. 

One wonders how far he will go. 

Season 12 of The Art of Longevity is Powered by Bang & Olufsen. Long copy can be found on www.songsommelier.com.

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When I heard the Chilly Gonzales song Neoclassical Massacre, I immediately got in touch with his management and label to get Gonzo on the Art of Longevity. Not only are his views on AI and background music incisive, but Gonzo has some strong opinions about the music industry and the modern culture in which it operates.

The ever-evolving tension between creativity and commerce has been a career-long exploration for Gonzo. It makes him the perfect guest for The Art of Longevity. Indeed, his own career has been a perfect metaphorical rollercoaster of ups and downs. After a few years on the scene as an alternative/performance artist (which he very much is right now) he had surprise success with a quiet piano instrumental album Solo Piano (2004). Only to follow up with a full-on 70s influenced pop album, launching a brief and unspectacular phase as a major label pop artist.

“That first Solo Piano surprise success was a foundational moment in encouraging me to continue to take risks. When and if I wanna go back there it will be a very beautiful thing, so long as I am doing it for the right reasons, there is something fluffy and safe about it for me.”

As for the pop record Soft Power, it became his “misunderstood masterpiece”, demonstrating very nicely that you can always make failures part of your narrative after the fact.

“It became an opportunity for me to make it a retrospective part of my mythology - injecting a bit of drama to my career”.

Fluffy and safe isn’t a typical Chilly Gonzales career choice. Indeed, on the new self-titled album, he returns to his alternative origins, rapping on most tracks. And without doubt, he is a scholar of Rap - not only on a musical level, but on a cultural level. Rap seems more influential on his career than his impeccable classical training. No other musician I can think of blends the two in such an inimitable way. As such, on new album Gonzo, the songs come across as both avant garde and yet hugely entertaining at the same time.

“The best works of art will always function on a superficial level that brings you in - everybody is on the same page now - we are all trying to succeed by having a catchy song that can live on 20 second snippets on TikTok but artists who are doing it at the highest levels are still managing to sneak in a deeper artistic meaning or holding up a mirror to society. “Billie Eilish, Chappell Roan or Melanie Martinez…you can tell their goal is for their music to exist on both levels…that’s something that Rap gifted culture”.

It also gifted us Chilly Gonzales and for that we are eternally grateful. 

The full interview write-up is on https://www.songsommelier.com/

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In this day & age of abundance, you can easily forget what’s precious - like your favourite bands. If you are anything like me the question “what’s your favourite band” now has an official top 40. As in I have a rolling 40 favourite bands. Making a welcome return to the top 40 is Nada Surf, the ‘New York’ (now firmly remote) indie band that first hit my favourites list way back in 2005.

I always remember how I discovered a band, in the case of Nada Surf it was on a Mojo or Uncut free “covermount” CD (do they still do those?). The track “Do It Again” from The Weight Is A Gift Album (2005) has one of my all-time favourite basslines. Indeed, in our Art of Longevity chat, Matthew Caws and myself ended-up riffing on a playlist of pop songs in which the first thing you hear is the bass line. If playlists were still a thing, that would be a good one. It was a pleasant digression from the important matter of surviving the music industry.

Nada Surf is one of those bands that’s easy to forget about when music is so abundant and that would be a big mistake. Stumbling upon a new Nada Surf record every 4-5 years is a highly recommended balm for modern day life. I can’t think of many bands (or in the case of Matthew Caws, songwriters) who provide the soundtrack to fumbling through life in the way we sometimes do, especially if you recognise the traits of attention deficit, as Matthew does - the origin and subject of the band’s superb new song ‘In Front of Me Now’, which I have adopted as a theme tune for the time being. In my head, if you will, this song is a number #1 hit single.

Over the years, Matthew’s subject matter for Nada Surf’s songs covers life’s day to day tribulations, the mangled thought processes that cycle through our brains and how to see light from the dark patterns that surround us. We are essentially keeping Matthew company as his life has played out.

“Most of the time a song is just impressionistically how I’m feeling”. 

Nada Surf is one of those bands that made their way through a 30-year career and nine studio albums without disturbing the charts. Yet the band has never made a bad record and indeed Matthew, modest to a fault, is somewhat coerced into being proud of never making a dud album.

“It has felt great in terms of longevity for a very long time. Unbelievably when we were making The Proximity Effect (the sophomore album in 1998) most of the bands that we toured with had broken up and we were sticking together. That felt unusual”.

Whether new album Moon Mirror will change the trajectory for Nada Surf remains to be seen of course, although it’s unlikely. That’s just the modern music landscape in the streaming era. Perhaps what matters more, is that not only is the new album very much not a dud, but one of the best indie sets you are likely to hear in 2024. And that’s saying something, since guitars and indie bands are back in fashion, albeit the modern kind i.e. a new crop of cult bands. Let’s hope some of this new crop of indie guitar bands can stay the course the way Nada Surf has done. Turns out surfing on nothing can be a lasting pastime. 

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In Mark Oliver Everett’s autobiography “Things The Grandchildren Should Know”, the author, otherwise known as E, the frontman and band leader of Eels, wrote of Bob Dylan’s self-proclaimed destiny as a musician:

“I wish I had something like that, but I didn’t. At all. All I had was an aching sense of desperation. I didn’t have any idea what the hell I was doing and was only doing it out of not knowing what else to do”.

Despite this, or perhaps because of it, E simply continued to keep on keeping on with music, leaving his home in Virginia to seek his ‘lack of destiny’ in Los Angeles. Low and behold, he wound up being signed to a major label - not once but twice - and at the second bite of the cherry, found significant and lasting success.

No wonder then, E suggests we rename this particular episode as “The Unconscious Art of Longevity”.

Some 23 years after signing his first solo record deal, E has found his way to a 15th Eels studio L.P., the aptly named Eels Time! Recorded in Los Feliz, Los Angeles and Dublin, Ireland, the album was made by the current line-up of E himself, Little Joe (Drums), Koool G Murder (bass) and The Chet (guitar), featuring Irish folk musician Sean Coleman and new collaborator Tyson Ritter (on five songs). Ritter is the lead vocalist, bassist, pianist, and songwriter of the rock band The All-American Rejects but is better known these days as an actor. In a twist typical of the Eels story however, Ritter - who on this occasion was connected to E by his manager - turned out to live close by. But The All-American Rejects shared the same label as Eels (Dreamworks) back in the early 90s. Almost two decades on, Ritter was finally reeled into Eels orbit.

It’s a microcosmic example of Eels' career story - a series of unplanned events driven by E’s whims - whatever he felt like doing at the time - a series of creative zigzag turns that often turned out for the best through luck or dare I suggest…a more similar destiny to Bobby Dylan’s than he once believed.

“I’ve been doing it so long now that everyone pretty much leaves me alone. I don’t tell the label I’ve made a record until after it's mastered and finished. I pay for the whole thing myself to have the freedom of nobody putting their two cents in”.

So in some ways yes, E’s career has been “The Unconscious Art of Longevity”. But look deeper and all the signs are there - the self-belief, single-mindedness and willingness to follow his own instincts and obsessions - these factors have underpinned Eels’ journey and kept the wheels connected to the rails. And each and every one of those 15 albums has a lot to offer

“It’s all a miracle to me that I still get to make music as my job. I’m lucky, but you have to get yourself in the best position to receive it when luck strikes”. 

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Marika Hackman's Big Sigh is everything a 4th album should be. Really good songs, good scheduling, sophisticated arrangements (brass and strings accompany many tracks). The album has variety - from the mysterious instrumental interludes of The Ground and The Lonely House (opening sides A and B of my/your bottle green vinyl copy) to stand out singles (Slime, No Caffeine) to epic album tracks (Hanging, The Yellow Mile). It has an impressive musicality and most of all, it has real depth. A truly great album is one you can climb into. Every listen reveals something new. Keep listening and your favourite songs will shuffle around changing places like a game of musical chairs. That’s Big Sigh.

A record such as this, in 2024, can reach a fleeting and lofty height of number 67 on the UK chart. So what’s wrong with the system here?

“Everything gets put on the little guy. Why has it become about artists and fans rather than labels driving the commerce? There should be a mutual respect between artist and fan, do they really want to see me on a selfie cam sending out a faceless message?”

But for an artist like Hackman, such frustration fights it out with gratitude on a daily basis. After all, she can make (expensive) records, get paid advances and take a full band on tour. Many ‘middle class’ artists operating in the same commercial layer as Marika cannot quite make it there.

What qualifies as the next level in this weird reality video game we call a career in music?

“It’s hard to break that ceiling to that next level - where it can run by itself - you need people to invest in you over the longer term, not just for one tour.  As artists we need to value ourselves more. We need to stop showing the industry that we are worthless. There can’t be an industry without us”. 

We need this to change. Because we deserve another four Marika Hackman albums, at least. Critically revered from her debut, the consensus (I read every review I can set eyes on) is that Hackman’s 4th studio album Big Sigh is her best work to date.

“Whenever I sit down to do a new record, it’s always about being better than the last one. To hear people say that my music has progressed to a new phase is like fuel to my fire. It’s lonely making records on your own, you can easily lose perspective”. 

As for the masterpiece, that is still to come. What happens after that is down to us. 

“I feel like I’ve got songs that are more classic that are yet to come. I used to dream about making a record that would transcend a generation, but now I just want to make a record that sounds like a classic record to me”. 

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Fran Healy and his band Travis have this longevity thing down. Firstly, you must have a love and addiction to music, as something magical. Secondly, that magic is for you to create - making music to nobody’s expectations but your own. But thirdly, you get lucky. As Fran says in episode 3, Season 9:

“The chances of a shit kicker from Glasgow going on to win the best band in the world is a billion to one. How can you be proud to be lucky?”

Well okay, but as all bands that ever got a break know, you have to be in it to win it. And for 35 years now, Fran has been in it - always mining for that song gold.

“Most songwriting is digging, until you find that nugget, and you extract it from the rock. You keep digging because you know you will find something”.

New song Gaslight is one such nugget - a fabulous pop-rock stomp, with a brass arrangement and burst of dirty guitar to boot. It feels confident. And, Travis has a new album - L.A. Times - written by Fran Healy from his studio on the edge of Skid Row, Los Angeles, where he has lived for 10 years. He describes L.A. Times as Travis’ “most personal album since The Man Who”. That album went 9X Platinum in the UK alone and shot the band into superstardom, and while no such expectations exist for L.A. Times, that’s just as it should be. The band that rose to fame during the peak CD era in the 90s is releasing their 10th album into a world where vinyl sells more than CDs, but streaming still rules. Does Travis have a place in this space?

It’s just not something that will concern Healy or his bandmates that much.

“The problem is when you think you are the shit, you are the diamond. But I’m still a lowly miner, and always will be. Joy and success you can define any way you want, but it’s about you, the person, not outside things”.

The writer of a song called Gaslight will never be gaslighted it seems. 

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After 25 years in the music business, both as a major label priority artist and as a jobbing musician, Ed Harcourt still has big ambitions. 

“My greatest achievement would be to write a song I would never get bored of singing”.

Cards on the table, Ed Harcourt’s two instrumental albums made between 2018 and 2020 (Beyond the End and Monochrome to Colour) got me through the pandemic. Well, they certainly helped. But Ed didn’t sing on either, so it comes as something of a relief to have Ed Harcourt back in the world of songs. Not only that, but his best batch of songs for a while - held together on a cracker of a new album El Magnifico. It is quite possibly the best album he has ever made. The question is, will enough people get to hear it?

Harcourt was first signed to Heavenly Records, which was subsumed into the EMI empire of old, where he was a priority UK artist for a while - thrust into the eye of the needle. But the chart positions never came, the pressure mounted, and, inevitably, Harcourt moved on into the second phase of his career as an independent artist. These days, his view of ‘the industry’ is understandably jaded.

“I went a bit mad. I had been institutionalised. I felt done. It still feels like a rollercoaster, but I can’t do anything else”.

His solo albums as an independent artist have impressed critics and fans - especially Furnaces (2016) - but commercial success has been elusive, and Furnaces left him burnt out and in need of a change (hence the ‘neo classical phase’ that followed).

Harcourt remains an active collaborator, however, producing albums for Kathryn Williams and Sophie Ellis Bexter, whom with Ed co-wrote on her last three albums. He is now working with emerging artist Roxanne De Bastion. In many ways, it is surprising he is not more in demand as a producer, although by his own admission, he will never be motivated to do anything within a million miles of what you might call a trend. Meanwhile, he tours with cult Ohio indie band The Afghan Whigs and is waiting for some film score projects to drop. But, for an ambitious artist, is that success?

“Success is working. Just making music all the time. I am proud but dismissive. Something will come, but I just don’t know what, yet…”

Harcourt now makes music with the battle scars of an artist who has been through the mangle. He rode the hype cycle - signing a five album deal to a major, experiencing the fallout from that, and steadily rebuilding to a place where he can always make music for himself.  

In particular on El Magnifico, there is a bouncy, upbeat ‘single’ in Strange Beauty, while Deathless is a throwback to the classic days of album songs - a centrepiece if you will. Broken Keys is reminiscent of Elvis Costello during his 70s heyday, while Into The Loving Arms Of Your Enemy may well be Harcourt’s best song so far. 

In fact, it might be the song Ed Harcourt never gets bored of singing. 

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Try playing a Crowded House record (any of them) then let Spotify play on…you will get just the best selection of really great songs. Go on, try it and you’ll see for yourself. This discovery may well make drivetime radio programming a heck of a lot easier, or possibly redundant altogether.

You may of course be a Crowded House fan and like, know this already. You may be a casual admirer, or even a sceptic. In which case, take the time to enjoy this shared revelation. But let me tell you that this is simple proof of Neil Finn’s songwriting skills. Certainly it’s more to do with that than mathematics.

I’m saying this as a recently converted fan. One of the deep pleasures (and deep privilege) of doing this podcast is that I can discover what I’ve missed, correct my own perceptions of some artists, and get up to fan-speed.

This band has made stone cold classic albums. Woodface, Together Alone, the debut album probably too. But each one of their seven studio L.Ps now including a brand new album Gravity Stairs offers a masterclass in high quality song and sound craft. Together Alone is a high point for sure but I particularly enjoyed the 2010 Intriguer album. Thing is, Crowded House records take time to love. They grow on you, something Neil Finn is well aware of:

"In general our records that may have been regarded as classic, have taken their time. Every album has been a slow boiler, requiring a lot of belief in it".

However, Gravity Stairs feels much more immediate than the band’s more subtle 2021 release Dreamers Are Waiting. Crowded House have cracked the code to a healthy longevity. Classic songs, great stagecraft, a relaxed attitude to ‘success’ and a continuous desire to create something new that’s actually good. Whether the new songs last as long as the old doesn’t matter too much when it’s the same writer, the same band that has made its mark indelibly. 

One thing is for sure, those songs will probably outlive the algorithms.

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When Real Estate's fifth album The Main Thing was released to fairly mixed results, was it time for a reset? In a sense, yes. For band leader Martin Courtney, it was time to get back to songs. After all, without songs, bands are just jamming, right? He set the bar high too, inspired mostly by the 1992 R.E.M. classic Automatic For The People.

Besides, you cannot call in a producer like Daniel Tashian without being able to play him songs of exceptionally high standard. For a start, Tashian produced Kacey Musgrave’s modern classic Gold Hour, as well as writing a bunch of understated classics with his own band The Silver Seas. 

Consider then, that the batch of songs landing on the new Real Estate album Daniel were so good that Tashian (who co-writes with many of the artists he produces) only tinkered with them. And in doing so, hopefully gave each one a liberal sprinkling of his magic song fairy dust. 

“In terms of his input into the songs it was minimal. Daniel was more like a cheerleader in the studio. He’s so fun - he’ll be jumping around and hype you up - so it’s much less daunting in the studio having him around. Graig Alvin mixed the record, and he’s also won Grammy’s too. We had high-powered people in the room”. 

Despite all this, Martin sounds surprised at the possibility of creating a classic album, although Daniel has the potential to be just that. What that means, in this day & age, is another thing entirely. Yet the band has been in classic album territory before, in 2014, with Atlas - songs from which brightened up daytime radio, found their way onto the biggest indie streaming playlists - and even landed that record on the Billboard top 40 and UK album charts. 

A decade on, with the music landscape much altered, the expectations for Daniel are less certain. In Courtney's own words “I know there is a good chance that it will come and go, like everything else these days”. But be assured that if you do become familiar with the record, it will pay you back dividends for a long time to come.

So where does a band like Real Estate fit into the modern music industry landscape? Still in the game and getting better, the band’s cultural caliber is steadily rising. 

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Like many women creators in the (still) white, male dominated music industry, the Staveley-Taylor sisters aka The Staves, bring a sense of humbleness to everything they have achieved, how they are positioned today and indeed, what the future holds. Is it possible that The Staves are better than they think they are? It seems so. Originally signed to a major label of some reverence (Atlantic, just before the hypergrowth of Spotify, social media and TikTok), it is likely that their major label A&Rs saw in them a modern version of a classic rock band of old - the golden years of CSN, Carole King, Joni Mitchell et al.

And why not? Back in the golden age of music, all bands started raw, and didn’t truly hit their stride until album three or four. Back then, they were given time to develop by the infrastructure that was the music industry. Now that’s all gone but by the skin of their teeth, The Staves are out on the other side - in control of their own destiny - and progressing steadily from album to album (second album If I Was set the bar high, but Good Woman was a revelation that took the band to a different level). 

Even so, as they prepare to release their 4th LP All Now as an independent band, The Staves still need to reach the audience their music deserves. So would they rather write a hit song or make a classic album?

“We’ve never had a hit record hanging over us. It’s an incredible thing to have a song that outlasts you, for your music to become bigger than you are”. But the album - the body of work - is something that will endure more. It’s the album that becomes a significant soundtrack to a part of someone's life”.

In a sense then, the job is half done, even if the masterpiece is still to come. In whatever form the band takes moving forward, the potential to build their own quiet legend is very much in full force for The Staves.

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After the fiasco of having to cancel Beirut’s 2019 tour, Zach Condon knew he needed to take the time out to fully recover. Multiple infections, colds and in the end complicated throat ailments had led him to a total burnout, until finally:

“My manager and my tour manager saved me from myself. They told me I can’t keep touring. I threw in the towel and dissolved the touring group. I later saw the fiasco over refunds and all that, and I felt horrible about it”.

This adversity though, perhaps inevitably, led to Beirut’s latest project Hadsel, which may well be as close as a record can come to being a lifesaver. Hadsel is the album as therapy. Steeped in nature and with a meditative quality to it, it works perfectly as an immersive listen. And it works perfectly too as an expression of where Beirut finds itself as a band (even if on this occasion, Condon did everything himself).

“I was just looking for a cabin but found one with a pump organ so at that point, everything clicked. [this album] is a return to something I can’t put my finger on. But it feels more scrappy and raw somehow”.

If that doesn’t sound like creative progress, don’t worry. If Beirut’s early albums (Gulag Orkestar 2006, The Flying Club Cup, 2007) were unique, and impressive for critics and fans alike, they were essentially the product of Condon’s musical obsessions at the time - Balkan Brass, French Chanson and some mariachi thrown into the mix for good measure. Condon stripped back those styles somewhat on later albums such as The Riptide and No No No. The latter contained a lean set of what you might even call catchy tunes.

Those records were proof that through all the unique stylings, there is a substance to Condon’s work that always comes through. He writes lovely songs with strong melodies. Perhaps in the end, that is why Beirut’s songs have foound their way onto playlists and done relatively well on streaming platforms, especially Spotify.

Zach is both amused and bemused by this at once, not recognising most of the other songs and bands he is juxtaposed with on those playlists (largely in the crudely tagged category of indie). But then his whole career has not been one of following the music industry conventional forms. Instead, Zach has always found an alternative route.

“I’ve always felt that I stood right outside the river. The music industry is this river and it’s always flowing in this direction and there are all these people that are part of it, moving along with it. And I’m outside it, but somehow I've made my living and I’ve found my audience”.

Good thing too, since when music is a destiny calling, there’s no point becoming too attached to the outcomes, just focus on the music from project to project and make it as good as it can be.

"I didn’t really choose music but as an obsessive - music was a type of possession where everything else disappeared. It was an addiction in many ways and still is”.

It may come as some relief to Beirut or not, but somehow through all the adversity of recent years, the winter solace of Norway, and his nomadic approach to music making has literally taken his music even further. 

Full write at https://www.songsommelier.com/

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Singer-songwriter Amy MacDonald has never been one to chase trends - an impressive show of resistance for an artist whose music journey began with teenage stardom (the streaming monster hit “This Is The Life” was all over the radio when she was just 19). Macdonald could be forgiven for trying to stay in the spotlight, but she was never that bothered about industry fuss in the first place, protected as she is by a finely tuned bullshit detector, a birthright for anyone born in the vicinity of Glasgow.  

That said, as her career has developed (she is now on her sixth album), MacDonald admits to worrying more…about mostly everything. New album Is This What You’ve Been Waiting For? is a cheeky dig at years of being asked when new music was coming, yet it comes with a certain anxiety about how it will go down, about how the world sees her now. “I keep myself up at night just thinking about shite basically, it's ingrained in me - I just want it to be good for everybody involved”. Staying grounded matters to Macdonald. When asked what she’s most proud of, her answer is modest but telling: “That I’m still doing this. There were so many times I thought I was going to sack it all in. But here I am, album six, and people still seem to be interested.”

It's easy to forget how much responsibility falls on the shoulders of solo musicians. It’s as if the strength of her songwriting might not be enough. But it is. 

Season 12 of The Art of Longevity is Powered by Bang & Olufsen. Long copy can be found on www.songsommelier.com.

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Metric has become one of those bands that have paved the way for independence, along with Aimee Mann, Chance The Rapper and the other self-releasing copyright owning pioneers. Their fifth album Synthetica (2012) as it turns out, is a favourite of the band’s front woman and main co-writer Emily Haines. Even though it didn’t reach the commercial heights predecessor Fantasies did, it was a mature and ambitious record, setting the tone for Metric’s accomplished and reliably strong catalogue. 

It brings us to the band’s recent projects Formentera (2022) and this year’s sibling album Formentera II, neither of which miss a beat - not a weak track among the combined 18 songs. If consistency is what you’re after, Metric should be your new favourite band.

It was refreshing to hear that there was no particular logic to the selection and scheduling of both the Formentara albums - no grand design - just the sound of the band hitting their stride enough for a double album (even if it is released in two seperate packages).

“We had made a body of work and knew we had a double album. When we rejoined civilization after our Doomscroller tour, we thought this was the most fun way to release it. I’ve always envied the surprise release. So we announced on the one year anniversary of Formentera, there is a second album”.

This magnum opus came with other influences too, including the “impossible-made-possible” stylings of British filmmaker Terry Gilliam, in particular his 1985 cult masterpiece Brazil. Once you understand the connection between Formentera and Gilliam, you are reminded of a deep artistic sensibility behind Metric that sets this band apart. But what is Metric’s secret to making such consistently strong material?

“It’s terrifying to me that we don’t really know what we are doing. Everything we do from a sonic standpoint, to a visual, to lyrical themes…it all comes down to this feeling. All I know is that when I feel it I know it, and if I don’t, it will never see the light of day”.

No wonder Metric’s catalogue is such an entertaining ride.

Full text at https://www.songsommelier.com/

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I had invited Half Moon Run onto the podcast after first hearing Salt - imploring their BMG PR to arrange it as a matter of priority. 

Speaking with Dylan Phillips was an insight behind the creative process of the (decades long) making of one of my favourite records in ages. Also, I had never spoken to a drummer who is simultaneously a keyboard player, but that is part of the modus operandi of Half Moon Run - a continual swapping out switching up of instruments between the band’s three members, Phillips, Devon Portielje (also lead vocals) and Conner Molander. 

Half Moon Run was formed over a decade ago, originally as a four piece (with Isaac Symonds). The band’s 2012 debut album Dark Eyes was a well received and exciting addition to the indie-rock canon. But now four albums into their 14 year career, their 2023 release Salt really is something else. It is the sound of a band finding a different level. The band itself knows it too:

“It’s the first time we felt unanimously that we were fully happy with the work we did on a record”.

So how does a band with no hits to speak of (Full Circle is the nearest thing, approaching 50M streams on Spotify), albums that don’t chart and a virtually unrecognisable name make a viable living after a decade in the game? Being brilliant appears to be the answer, mostly. Work as hard on your songs and performance as Half Moon Run does, and enough fans will follow you to the ends of the earth. Or at least from city to city. 

Making an excellent album certainly helps. Salt is the complete work, a perfect album - as close as this band has come to a masterpiece, even if it will not chart or feature on many (if any?) critics best of lists. 

“We had done this little project called the 1969 Collective, with Connor Sidell and we called him to see if he was interested in making a new full length record. He was, so we put all cards on the table - opened the books on everything we’ve ever done. Even if we’d failed with some of the songs before, maybe we could succeed this time around. We went from 80s songs to 24 and then brought it down to 11 songs for the album. A lot of the songs were a gift from ourselves, songs we’d had been trying out for a long time”. 

So, once a special record has been made - surely it deserves a wider audience? Or, as I prefer to say about Salt - lot’s of people deserve to hear this record. Is the band itself happy with their modest level of success?

“I’m super grateful that we are making this work. It’s tough though, especially when it’s hard to make a tour just about break even. When you want to make a good production of it”. 

Perhaps Half Moon Run will keep running purely on the strength and passion of the band’s existing fanbase. It’s those fans that are frustrated about the band’s relative lack of recognition. It isn’t enough to just make it out of Canada (a theme that may emerge in the current season of TAoL if you follow the podcast episodes). But that is the modern music industry. The very best music doesn’t always naturally rise to the top. 

Salt may not be on the 2023 ‘best of’ lists simply because the compilers of those lists will have missed it in the glut of music albums that come week-on-week. Yet It stands up as a modern indie-pop/rock classic by a band with real promise. 

(full write up on https://www.songsommelier.com/)

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In the 70s, the teenage years of Andy McCluskey and Paul Humphreys, one would have heard new music by word of mouth, from the music papers, and DJs like John Peel, and it is one of these channels that would have led the young Andy McCluskey in September 1975 to see Kraftwerk play at the Liverpool Empire.

 It's lazy to suggest that Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark were entirely influenced by Kraftwerk – both founder members were keen music lovers and had performed together in a band called The Id – but their debut single Electricity wears that influence  on its sleeve.

There were some classic synthpop albums released in in 1980 and 1981 but in terms of maturity and sophistication, none came close to ‘Architecture and Morality’, OMD’s third album.

McCluskey & Humphreys always did things there own way:

"We kind of did songwriting in reverse. A lot of songwriters sit at the piano and hash out a melody and the chords first. With us, we start with a soundscape and crazy noises and quite often the song will land on top. We then realised we had a knack for a catchy tune". 
 
OMD arguably took a wrong turn with their fourth album 'Dazzle Ships', released in 1983.

"We forgot to sugar coat the experiment. The album shipped Gold and returned Platinum, more copies were sent back than sold. It did scare us that it wasn't commercially successful. Even though our songs always start as experiments, we were conscious to keep it more commercial in order to rescue our career". 

But even that record became a classic, eventually. Some 33 years on, in 2016, OMD played a triumphant show at London's Royal Albert Hall performing both Architecture and Morality and then Dazzle Ships back-to-back. That experience gave the band a new lease of life. 2017’s ‘The Punishment Of Luxury’ can arguably be confidently placed in the top three albums OMD had released to date. Almost forty years after they first got together, a band that was still adding to its finest work.

The band's forthcoming album, ‘Bauhaus Staircase’ bodes well for their late blooming fifth decade and extended longevity. This, despite McCluskey's wisdom suggesting otherwise. 

"It's usually dangerous and stupid to make a new album unless you are really going to invest in it. People tell us we're iconic and influential, so we don't want to fuck it up by making a shit album".

The band can rest easy. After 45 years working in their own unique way, they and their fans find OMD on a roll. 

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So many bands have a complex relationship with their biggest songs (probably because they essentially set a one dimensional benchmark - that of popularity) but dealing with that and playing those songs like it’s the last time you ever will, is part of doing the work. The Doll’s most biggest song and most recent tour are no exception:

“Robby convinced me, play Iris last. But that’s what bands do when they only have one big song! So everyone has to stick around and hear all the other songs before you get to the hit”. But you know what, it works, so we play Iris last”.

Well when you have one of the biggest indie songs ever, that’s a good attitude to have.

While to my mind, The Goo Goo Dolls are a classic album band, it is their chart-topping singles, including of course  "Iris," but also giants like "Name," "Slide," and "Black Balloon." These songs have helped define their legacy and will grow in perpetuity when it comes to streaming count.

The Goo Goo Dolls' music is marked by catchy melodies, emotional lyrics, Rezeznik’s distinctive vocals, and a balance of acoustic and electric feel. Their ability to create relatable and timeless songs has contributed to their enduring popularity in the world of rock music. The band has developed nicely through the mists of time.

When I ask Rezeznik how he would approach making a career in today’s industry, he gives me the same bemused answer as many guests do on The Art of Longevity: “I don’t think I would”. But he and his band have crossed the Rubicon and so his anxiety is instead projected onto the next generation of musicians forged from the same stuff i.e. focused on the music:

“How much amazing music is not being heard because [TikTok] is the metric you have to use, to decide if an artist is viable or not. Through Tik Tok? Gimme a break”.

“But that’s what worries me about the next generation of musicians - are they gonna be able to do that”? Being poor and famous, I’m not sure that’s gonna work”.

That’s exactly what the “music business” is trying to figure out. 

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What better guest for this 50th episode of The Art of Longevity than metal’s renaissance man Corey Taylor? A modern legend of the heavy metal genre, Corey has no less than three successful music projects. He is probably best known as Slipknot’s #9 (lead vocals) but before he joined Slipknot, Taylor already had another established hard rock band, Stone Sour. I met Corey as he was about to release his second solo record CMF2.

This multiple persona artist is a sort-of blueprint for music creators in this day & age. After all, to put all your creative eggs in one basket is not enough to succeed in today’s hyper-fragmented, super-saturated, ultra-competitive music market.

No problem at all for Corey. The man has too many ideas and too much restless energy to fit into just one band, even if that happens to be one of the world’s biggest and most successful metal bands.

So how does he do it?

“I’m able to prioritise and focus to get the best out of me creatively. My appetite for art and creating is insatiable though - I’ve got so many things I want to do, it keeps me sane and grounded. I’m hyper-focused but I do things bit by bit. But maybe I’m also just a psycho”.

One thing that struck me about Corey too, is his advocacy for metal - which comes within the broader context for his advocacy for music itself. Known in the past for “not being stingy with his opinions”, Taylor is deeply knowledgeable about his genre, as well as the wider industry in which metal is sometimes treated like Cinderella.

“Some people would love to keep us [metal musicians] in boxes, and yet, if you are a pop star, you’re encouraged to hop from genre to genre like fuckin’ hopscotch. You can’t keep us back while pushing people into places we have every right to go as well. But we scare people too, the movers and shakers are intimidated by the level of talent in our genre. Metal musicians could wipe the floor with a lot of today’s pop stars”.

It brings us back to CMF2, an album as eclectic (and also excellent) as you’ll find. Across its 13 tracks cover country, radio-friendly rock, brooding Bowie-esque ballads and hardcore punk throwback. And yes, some pretty exemplary songs from his metal heartland. The thread that runs through the eclectic collection is simple enough: 

“I wanted to honour the songwriters who made me what I am”. 

Job done, onto the next one...

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Following the highly accomplished 2012 album Heaven, cult American indie band The Walkmen went on hiatus. But now they have reformed. In a recent interview with the band’s frontman Hamilton Leithauser, Vulture magazine referred to the now infamously long career break as “a particularly noticeable void”. 

I would go a lot further than that. I (and a million other fans) grieved the loss of The Walkmen, because in the indie landscape they offered something unique. The ramshackle but classic rock sound (could any band sound more analogue?). The authenticity of those songs. Hamilton Leithauser’s signature voice. Most bands have a manifesto to stand out from the rest, but The Walkmen didn’t need to say it - they were truly el differente. 

Hamilton didn’t know if anyone would remember or care much but he turned out to be wrong about that of course. The Walkmen’s legend has matured nicely in the intervening 10 years that they have been away. 

But the interesting thing is that culturally, the band never really went away. Their songs and fandom lived on through the extended break - even grew in their absence. This is perhaps the true miracle of music in the streaming era. Hamilton and the others were surprised and delighted to return to playing shows to loyal audiences both old and new, the younger fans among them singing every word of those old songs. 

In the modern music biz, when the talk is of “always-on” creation, 24/7 content and acute FOMO, maybe the most valuable move a band can make is to not succumb to any of that, but to instead have the nerve and the confidence to do what’s necessary - even if that is nothing. Hamilton puts the stresses of modern day bands into perspective though:

“It’s exhausting physically and mentally - in the long run. After you’ve done a bunch of records you think “do I really wanna do another rock & roll record, no I don’t think I do”, then it becomes about what you really want to do next”. 

With six albums and some older EPs to perform, there is no need - not yet - for any meaningful discussion about new material by The Walkmen. But it is reassuring and exciting to know that Hamilton and bandmates haven’t ruled it out. For now we can be happy enough that a particularly noticeable void has been filled. 

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After he “couldn’t get arrested” in the 80s, post-grunge opened a window through which a then 30-year old Ron Sexsmith could climb. With his sincere, low-key ballads and simple songs straight from the heart, as was his 1995 self-titled debut. Produced by legend Mitchell Froom, it was a stripped back affair but also with the signature sounds of Froom and his engineer collaborator Tchad Blake (favourites of the crew here at The Art of Longevity). Those songs came as an antidote to the loudness of grunge and the hubris of Britpop. Sexsmith was a pioneer of a style that paved the way for a wave of troubadours including Teddy Thompson, Josh Ritter, Rufus Wainwright and many more. Of all places he was signed to Interscope - then one of the world’s biggest major labels.

“They didn't really know what to do with me. They called me a ‘cred artist’. Someone who had good good reviews and they could point to and say - 'we’re not just pop' - so they could attract other real artists.”

“I coasted on that for a while, but then around my third album (Whereabouts, 1999) I saw that it didn’t mean anything to them any more. To have an artist that was just good to have around”.

And so that early run came to an inevitable end as Ron was slammed into the wall of the ‘dropped artist’. By then though, he was into stride as a songwriter. No longer an apprentice to those amazing producers he has worked with, he was on his way to mastering the craft. Indeed, these days he describes himself as more of a problem solver than a songwriter.

This songcraft is what connects Sexsmith to the greats. When I mention to him that Spotify pays him a compliment when its continuously play/radio function will follow one of his songs with Nick Lowe, Nick Drake or some other legend, his response is modest yet enlightening.

“Well I didn’t know that but one of the nicest things anyone ever said about me was what Randy Newman told Mitchell (Froom) that “I like Ron because he does the work”. And I thought, yeah that’s true, I do do the work. That’s what I try to do and for the most part. There’s not a song I could play you where I’d think the song is terrible”.

That's because none of them are. May I strongly suggest you sit back and enjoy the fruits of Ron Sexsmith’s labour.

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For Ben Folds, coming back on the scene with a new studio album feels like a breeze, literally:

“I Feel like the expectations are lowered but I have the wind on my back”.

In June 2023 Ben releases What Matters Most, his fifth studio album and his first in over six years, almost an ice age in today’s breathless music biz. But part of the reason and the joy it has taken him so damn long to make, is a focus on the craft that is part of Folds’ raison d'être as a musician some three decades into a professional career.

“I have carried a tradition of craft, that is not easily come by, in an era when it was always going away, until now” It might sound cocky to say that this is a lesson in songwriting but I dunno, it is.”

This is coming from someone who in the past decade has committed part of his career to promoting and campaigning for better music education. Come to think of it, a conversation with Ben Folds is a music education class in itself. His role as music scholar and teacher is now part of his legacy but his contribution to music is easily underestimated.

For starters he sandblasted a music scene that in the mid-90s was dominated by grunge, Britpop and pretty soulless boy & girl band pop. And he did it with a fucking piano. Aided and abetted of course by belting bass (Robert Sledge) and drums (Darren Jessee) combo that made up Ben Folds Five - a refreshingly guitar-free rock band.

After the trio disbanded following the usual music industry roller coaster ride (a familiar story beautifully told in Fold’s 2019 book A Dream About Lightning Bugs) Folds went solo - sometimes quite literally.

He made ‘sustainable touring’ a thing, by going on the road with himself and a piano. That’s something now essential for bands in the mid-tier - the so called “working class musician” - to tour with a minimalist set up. Fold’s truly took to it - improvising and bantering with the audience - even creating a song (Bitches Ain’t Shit) that became a sort of regrettable classic. He found the experience scary but took his inspiration from James Booker. “I was playing standing places - rock venues. I was shaking in my boots the first time I went out on tour like that, but I felt the need to do it”.

Folds is a pioneering independent artist. He called the creative shots even when first signed to a major label imprint with Ben Folds Five. He paid for vinyl masters to some of his albums knowing full well it would come out of his royalty account. He was an early adopter of the direct to fan model with his Patreon site, recently expanded to include a private Discord channel. It’s very much the modern fan-centred business model for up & coming artists these days.

Through it all, Folds is one of those artists that can always rely on the ability to write a song. It’s something that has seen him through the thick & thin years as he transitioned from a band to a solo career and then later as he expanded into soundtracks and orchestral works.

That songcraft is firmly intact on What Matters Most on songs such as Back To Anonymous, Winslow Gardens and Kristine From the 7th Grade. But Folds can strategize the biz side too these days, and his plan is to make this new album an event.

“I know we’re making movies in a way when we make records but I wanted to make a record that you could date on all counts. The event is powerful, because you are either expressing an ideal, a design - or you are expressing an event”. 

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Asking John Grant to describe the essence of the record he is working on now, elicits a response that fascinates from the get go. 

“I’m trying to marry the vibe of Blade Runner with - wait a minute - let me go and get this movie [shows me Tetsu The Iron Man]. I want to blend Sonic Youth with Blade Runner, Evil Dead and Halloween 3”. 

John was struggling to articulate a few things on the day we met, including the one word essence of this new album project, but I’m going to guess the word that he was looking for was cyberpunk. 

If you don’t know it, Tetsuo: The Iron Man is a 1989 Japanese tokusatsu cyberpunk body horror film created (as in written, produced, edited, and directed) by Shinya Tsukamoto. It’s insane and unlike any other movie made then or now. It’s an auteur’s project and that sums up John Grant better than anything else. The man has a singular vision and for that we can be grateful. We do not want John Grant by way of compromise! 

And then there is Blade Runner, which I’m guessing you are more familiar with. Ridley Scott’s 1982 cult classic is an anchor point for Grant, who is influenced by those sweeping, cosmic valve-synth Vangelis soundscapes that cropped up so fully formed on his last album Boy From Michigan - a high watermark record that John feels is only just finished, yet is already almost two years old. In today’s music biz, two years is an awfully long time. 

But then, making the follow-up to Boy From Michigan is not a trivial undertaking. Creativity in John Grant’s particular zone of avant garde pop is not an environment in which you can simply turn up at the office and turn on the tap. His world is not always a well-oiled machine. 

“Guy Garvey told me that creativity is like a pipeline that you have to keep flowing, even if it’s just to flush the shit out before you can get to the good stuff”.

I do love it when artists listen to artists. Thing is, it doesn’t happen enough.

For the time being however, if you cannot wait too long for more from John - good news. Grant’s alternative supergroup Creep Show brings a welcome escape from the weight of the world - for him and for us. New album Yawning Abyss is due for release June 2023. 

Creep Show is a wonderful collaboration. With a name inspired by George A. Romero and Stephen King’s 1982 film and novel, Creep Show brings together John Grant with the dark analogue-electro of Wrangler (Stephen Mallinder / Phil Winter  and Benge, the latter producing Grant’s 2018 album Love Is Magic). The Creep Show project deserves every bit the success achieved by Gorillaz, in a parallel universe in which all music is judged on listenability. 

Who could not listen to this man's voice?

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What’s more important in securing a band’s longevity - hit songs or a classic album? I put this question to Meegan and Allison Closner (the twin sisters that make up two-thirds of Joseph along with their sister Natalie Closner Schepman). Their answer seemed clear enough. For Joseph, it’s all about the album. 

So, is the band’s new album The Sun a classic?

Only time will tell. Personally, I resisted any notion of hearing the record before its release. My orange ‘sun’ vinyl is in the post and I will listen to it just as one should, as the needle drops on side one track one (Waves Crash). I do have faith that Joseph can make a classic however - because they have already done it once before.

I first discovered Joseph’s music by way of a complete and very happy accident. I had sat down briefly with the head of an indie label, and as I often do, I asked the question “who should I be listening to?”. His reply was both immediate and singular: “Joseph”.

Okay then - easy to remember at least. I later fired up Spotify and typed the word Joseph into the search bar and there they were. Joseph - an Americana band of three sisters from Joseph, Oregon.

I’m always surprised when I don’t know a band in this genre - and Joseph had just released their third L.P. Good Luck Kid. And the album is a belter. Just fantastic Americana-country-pop. Wholly accessible but ambitious and expansive. It’s everything an Americana album should be - if not a concept album, then a start-to-finish cohesive piece of work. Good Luck Kid ended up as my favourite album from 2019 and so the band’s fourth album The Sun comes with a sense of high anticipation.

Then, Allison & Meegan told me about working with Tucker Martine and recording The Sun in his Flora studios in Portland, which ups the stakes about as high as they can get for a new record to my ears.

But, what does it mean to make a classic album in 2023?

Rick Rubin is keen to point out that the creation of a record is not a competition, and who are we to argue with the master builder of records? And yet, how can it not be a competitive situation in some ways, with scores of albums - really good ones - released week-in, week-out. The obvious answer is to compete with yourself and let others in as inspiration.

As Meegan says:

“We’ve taken in the classic bands we’ve come across in our adulthood, The Rolling Stones, Fleetwood Mac - who would not be influenced by those”. “But [with this album] we keep asking ourselves the question, do we like this? This has to be us. “I hope that we’ve made an album that lasts through time.”

Joseph have already done it once, so what’s stopping them doing it again? Every band aspiring to be the real deal deserves their moment in the sun, maybe The Sun will be Joseph’s time. 

(an extended write-up appears on songsommelier.com)

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In the intervening four years since Olly Knights first joined me, the band has been on something of a creative roll; two fine albums, a successful acoustic tour and something of a collective raising of the game. To my mind, this is how established bands of longevity should operate; to hell with the mainstream and gatekeepers, just do the very best work you can and keep those fans happy. 

The new Turin Brakes album Spacehopper saw the band going back to the start - recording the album at Konk, the recording studio founded by The Kinks in 1973 and where Turin Brakes recorded their classic debut The Optimist. This of course, was in contrast to the homely recording of post-pandemic Wide Eyed Nowhere, still a fine record but very different in character to Spacehopper. This time around too, the lead single from the new album, “The Message”, had some much deserved radio play on BBC Radio 2. 

But still, no hits to speak of, and the album reached the UK chart for just a fleeting moment. A hit would be nice for this band, but Ollie Knights remains more philosophical than ever:

“You take the wins where you can. Our happiness levels are less influenced by “success” in the mainstream areas. We’ve finally learned after decades of smashing up against the wall. We get over it very quickly if something is disappointing in the mainstream realm. That’s the bit you were not thinking about when you were dreaming about a career in music as a kid”. 

Indeed. For bands of Quiet Legend, still making excellent records and blowing the roof off venues live - it’s time to build your own momentum. There’s a lot to learn from Turin Brakes. 

To be contrarian for a moment though, this band may still get their moment. When you consider that those early classic hits (remember “Pain Killer” was a top five UK hit in the summer of 2003, whilst the band’s first chart single “The Underdog (Save Me)” has become an evergreen classic) are still relatively understreamed. The band’s biggest song on Spotify remains the 2016 ballad Save You with just over seven million streams. Sooner or later, that is bound to change, but until it does, the band continues to thrive organically, with or without the accolades. Their momentum is such that they are back in a place where it's still exciting after 25 years. 

“There is always something on the workbench. The chemistry between me and Gale and between the four of us - without those relationships, forget it. We look forward to getting together and playing, we’re excited about it. And when people come to see us live it's as if they want to come and watch the relationships happen”. 

Turin Brakes are the indie folk band that rocks. Good luck to them.

Season 12 of The Art of Longevity is Powered by Bang & Olufsen. Long copy can be found on www.songsommelier.com.

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In this episode of the Art of Longevity, we have the pleasure of chatting with Stuart Braithwaite, a member of the internationally renowned post-rock band Mogwai. Known for their masterful use of crescendos, Mogwai have been making music since 1995, with 11 studio albums that have gained increasing popularity over time, with their latest 'As The Love Continues' reaching the lofty milestone of #1 in the UK album chart.

Stuart's recently published autobiography, 'Spaceships Over Glasgow,' offers an insightful exploration of the band's progression and key periods of their journey. Though they never consciously planned for their success, Stuart shares some valuable insights into how artists can remain relevant and popular over a long period of time. 

“I can’t see any of this as conscious…’ We weren't expecting to be making 5/ 6 albums, never mind 10/11”.

Despite the resolute lack of long-term planning, Stuart and his merry band have become masters of the music long game. One key takeaway is the importance of confident incremental steps and staying true to the original values that inspired them to pursue music. Stuart notes that some bands lose their edge by changing their sound to fit a particular trend, while Mogwai remained steadfast in their approach.

Maybe they are simply building to the crescendo that destroys all crescendos!

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Being a longevous, ‘real deal’ music artist requires many things, but being pure in heart is certainly one. And there are few people on this earth as pure in heart as Rickie Lee Jones. 

With the completion of Last Chance Texaco in 2019 (her brilliantly evocative and critically revered addition to the vast ‘rock memoir’ library) Rickie Lee permitted herself to look back to those early days and draw new inspiration from them. 

“Before I finished that book, I was burdened, but when it was done I began to shed my fears. I am 68 years old and you cannot scare me any more”.

The resulting first studio album release since then is Pieces Of Treasure, Rickie Lee’s versions of a selection of American songbook classics including Nature Boy, September Song, Sunny Side of the Street and no less than two iconic Sinatra numbers. The success of this album is in the way Rickie Lee finds her way to occupy these well-travelled songs.

But, this being The Art of Longevity, I want to know about the bad times as well as the good. And Rickie Lee Jones has had more than her fair share of years in the wilderness. By her 90s records (Pop Pop, Traffic From Paradise and Ghostyhead ) Rickie Lee’s career showed the classic curve for established artists, of high critical acclaim but steadily reduced commercial success. 

Even after a minor resurgence in the 2000s (beginning with the superb Evening Of My Best Day), a further decade of being largely forgotten left Rickie Lee broke and unable to find a record label to release new music. How did she get through that time?

“I thought, maybe this was payment for having so much success so fast. It’s a kids game and there are many many new young artists coming up at any time. The thing is to teach the audience that you are not just a pop artist but that you are a real musician”.

We listeners, have a lot to learn!

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It has taken Dave Rowntree ages to make his first non-soundtrack body of work outside of Blur, especially when you consider their last album Magic Whip, is almost a decade old. Then again, perhaps it explains why Radio Songs has come out very well indeed - better than the public might have a right to expect, given the track record of drummers stepping out from behind the kit. 

The album’s electrosonic palette is drawn from all Rowntree's influences, including Air and Talk Talk, with - as we discuss, hints of Robert Wyatt and Thomas Dolby. And more predictably perhaps, Blur. It is surprising just how much Rowntree’s vocal style is reminiscent of his bandmate Damon Albarn, who collaborated on the record only from a distance, giving Rowntree feedback in the form of one page of notes. 

Now he’s gotten round to it, Rowntree has caught the bug for making solo records, he plans two more over the next two years, provided he doesn’t get too distracted by Blur. His plans to tour Radio Songs this year have been somewhat derailed by what he calls “Blur’s megapolis summer”. 

And so inevitably then, to Blur. Where does it fit in his schedule and his headspace?

“Fundamentally I’m still the drummer in Blur, that’s how I see myself, but if you plot Blur activity on a graph, it’s tapering away to zero, so it’s not going to last forever”. 

So, how does he feel about stepping out to perform live as frontman after all those years behind the kit? Undaunted is the answer:

“It has felt surprisingly natural really. The music starts and you get swept along in it. I’m happiest out on the road, gig every night, different town every day - there’s something seductive about that”. 

Whether or not the Blur bandwagon keeps rolling, Dave Rowntree looks like he has found himself a second longevous career in music. 

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Gavin Rossdale doesn’t think that Bush's longevity story in the music business as high drama - even though they have had their share of industry shenanigans, let-downs and, for nearly eight years, a split, until the band reformed in 2010. 

“It's the inevitability - bands might choose to settle for where they’re at. It might be difficult to go from arenas to clubs, but bands have to follow their hearts. And if you don’t, what else are you gonna do anyway”.

He hasn't settled for anything like that for Bush, a band that was back at number 1 of the Billboard rock charts as we spoke. Of course, the band’s career is unusual in that this is a British band that made it big in America - but never found anything like as much success in their native UK. Funny when you think about the history of UK bands that have tried to break America - and almost broken themselves in doing so.

As the band is about to embark on a major US tour we talk about what happens in preparation, which is a lot more than meets the eye. Getting in the right headspace is vital, and not always easy. To say that Gavin manages his own contradictions is an understatement. On the one hand, Bush and Rossdale's longevity has brought with it a clarity and confidence. On the other hand, all the insecurities of the classic creative mind remain at work.

"I don’t have regrets but I reflect on those moments to sharpen my mind going forward. The later part of my career, the youthful ignorance has gone and the horizon is perfectly visible, therefore it hones and sharpens my resolve”.

“I’m never content with what I do. I have a very strange process of self doubt and imposter syndrome until something good breaks through - and then I think, “for fucks sake shut-up”, and then I break through it”.

Long and successful careers in rock bands are not linear processes, nor are they straightforward to handle, psychologically. But Gavin Rossdale has this longevity thing sorted.

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The egoless band can go a lot further than most bands. A strong element of that is embracing creative changes of direction - agreeing on it and being brave about it. Let’s face it, something we know about longevity is that taking creative risks is not an option - at some stage every band must do it. As fans, we all have a favourite Bowie album and a least favourite one. The same goes for every band, and that includes English indie-rockers Editors. 

Impressive then, that Editors have forged a new creative direction not once, but twice. The latest incarnation is hardly as an indie-rock band at all, but as an electronic outfit that has dived wholly into the musical scene that is electronic body music - so much so, they even named their new album (their 7th), EBM.

Less a genre and more a philosophy, this certainly makes good copy for the new Editors record. Indeed, keyboard player and backing vocalist Elliott Williams even suggested it could have been on the album’s cover sleeve.

They’ve pulled it off with aplomb, with an album that has a motor on it, and absolutely no filler whatsoever. And when you think about it, the move - as radical as it seems - is more an organic evolution of where the band has been going since 2010’s ‘In This Light And On This Evening’. But then, Editors’ career has been an ongoing exercise in managing expectations. As Tom Smith puts it:

“We were this deeply alternative band that were there by accident really. We’ve always found inspiration in the shadows, it suits us. It’s why we’re still here”. 

Editors have navigated a path to longevity that covers the bases: creative shifts, changes of line-up and not getting attached to the trappings of fame. However in the end, for all the drama in their music, this is a band that has survived through pragmatism, friendship and staying grounded. It’s been a Karma Climb of sorts, and long may they go on. 

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Let’s face it, there is a patchy record for solo artists that began in popular 90s bands. Some crossed the rubicon to a credible solo career and some didn’t. While Gaz Coombes enjoyed the full glare of the spotlight of the second half of the 90s with Supergrass, his solo work has surpassed those years in many ways. 2018’s World’s Strongest Man felt like a step forward in this third phase of Coombe’s music career (he has been making music in commercial bands since the age of 15, so let’s call Supergrass his second phase).

Gaz hasn’t felt the need to rush things. Since Supergrass split in 2010 (they came together for a resplendent but brief reunion live tour in 2022) he has released four solo albums, each one a steady progression on the one before. But none of his solo work sounds like the band that first made him a famous face and voice.

What’s been cool about doing these last few solo records is building up this entirely new fan base, not just expecting people to have come over from Supergrass”.

The path to a viable, successful solo career is a pretty precarious one, but it feels like Gaz has found his way on that path. His new album Turn The Car Around continues in the same vein as World’s Strongest Man, showcasing the variety of tricks Coombe’s has in the bag, from classic melancholic songs to nagging grooves and dirty guitar sounds. From this point onwards, he’s pushing himself further. 

“I’ve called this album the last one of a trilogy, just to force myself to look at my career in a different way from now on. I’ve known where I wanted to take it before but this time I’m not sure. I want to do something different, so it’ll be jazz metal”. 

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Rumer’s arrival struck a similar chord to that of Norah Jones some six years earlier i.e. refreshingly out of time. Those singles Slow, Aretha and their host album Seasons of My Soul arrived so fully formed although (as with Norah Jones) Rumer was another case of ‘overnight success 10 years in the making’.

“It was planes, trains and automobiles, that was my journey to getting a record deal and in those days you had to have a record deal. I couldn’t imagine doing a self-release – I didn’t have the knowhow, team or energy. But getting a record deal seemed to be as likely as winning the lottery. I was just a girl working three jobs and trying to survive”.

 This went on for years and years – almost a decade – of doing low-key circuits, song-writing between jobs and with very little hope of ever getting a music career off the ground - even with that voice. After all, we don’t live in a world where talent rises naturally to the top. Then all of a sudden, at the last roll of the dice, everything happened all at once. Signed by Atlantic Records, Rumer was thrust to the top of the pedestal - signing dinners, showcases, chart success, radio play, then mixing with pop royalty and even invitations to the White House.

 What followed was an all too familiar tale, a most typical music industry story. Rumer became an exemplar of everything the music industry machine can do. As she puts it on The Art of Longevity:

I was like a rabbit in the headlights, just spinning. I didn’t really enjoy it but I was shaming myself for not enjoying it because it was what I had wanted”. Everything goes so fast, you can’t think – you need other people to think for you – and at that point you become vulnerable. Your energy, magic and sparkle is drained from you”.

Yet perhaps, she played the right card at the right time. To follow-up her phenomenal debut Rumer released a covers album Boys Don’t Cry, in 2014. She encountered some resistance to that, but she stuck to her guns and got her way. And that album was also a major success. She became something of an expert at interpretation of others’ songs, some of them long forgotten gems. 

One of the secrets to longevity we’ve discovered on The Art of Longevity is “have the confidence to disrupt yourself before the industry disrupts you”.

Rumer did just that and survived to tell the tale.  It's a fascinating journey. 

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The Delines’ world is a sprawling, blue collar soap opera. Flawed characters, aimless drifters, chancers and grifters, barroom fights, beat-up cars, parking lots, convenience store robberies, messed up relationships and broken dreams…the characters are never far off disaster - indeed they are predestined. It’s so romantic, it is magnificent.

As a recording band, The Delines are meticulous in rendering that world so perfectly. Their three full-length studio albums are full of the stories that make up this wider soap opera, and with 2022’s The Sea Drift, there is the added context of these stories based in the state of Texas and the Gulf Coast of Mexico. As a concept album you’ll be hard pushed to find anything as immersive. Visual, novelistic writing, music economically played purely as a vessel for the songs, each musician plays with an exquisite restraint. Leading all this is Amy Boone’s voice, so occupying its subjects as to put you the listener into each and every tragic scene. 

As Vlautin admits The Delines are “a small time band”, just like a music industry equivalent of the small time characters they write, sing and play about. Yet, as we discuss on the Art of Longevity - they are really occupying the same space, metaphorically and musically speaking - as Springsteen or Lana Del Rey. I wouldn’t say either of those artists aren’t the real deal, everyone knows they are. Yet if it’s real music you want, then may we humbly introduce you to what might become your favourite new band. 

The Delines really are as real as the characters they sing about. 

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In this episode, Fenner Pearson chats to Neil Arthur about his writing process and how he works on the Blancmange albums, with Benge acting as his foil and producer, and his collaborations with Fader and Near Future. Arthur touches on the number of ideas “buzzing and fizzing” around his head that has led to him recording sixteen albums in eight years. This in turn provides an interesting insight into the whole process of releasing an album in 2022 compared with 1982!

Perhaps what comes across most clearly is Arthur’s creative energy, from the studio where he records and develops his ideas, through the time spent working with Benge in the latter’s studio, right up to his enduring enjoyment of playing live, including his current tour where he performs with the enthusiasm and energy of someone who obviously relishes performing their music to an audience. 

And there is no sense that Neil is slowing down: he is in the process of mixing completed albums with Near Future and a covers album with Vince Clarke, as well a new collaboration with Liam Hutton and Finlay Shakespeare as The Remainder, and a new Fader album. On top of that, he will be performing at a number of festivals next year. 

It’s an inspirational interview, in which Neil Arthur illustrates and exemplifies how a passion for music and a relentless creative energy has directly resulted in his artistic longevity and joyous cascade of albums from Blancmange and his many other projects.

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After fading from view in the UK after "Strange And Beautiful" (a top 10 hit in 2002), Aqualung was hardly consigned to the legend of the one hit wonder. Instead Matt Hales went to make his name and build his career in the USA - much of it through hard, steady touring - the opposite of his “instant success” in the UK. Aqualung bucked the trend for under-achieving British acts through the naughties, selling several hundred thousand albums and becoming darlings of the cool celebrity crowd, from appearances on Jay Leno's Tonight show to Grammy nominations and cool celebrities attending his shows. Matt Hales became what he calls “inadvertently cool”. How did that happen? By not compromising for one thing.

“I tried compromising at one stage, by writing hits and giving the A&R guy what he wanted, but it made me unhappy. So I made the quietest music I could, my Idagio, my quieter version of Pet Sounds. That turned out to be successful anyway!”

Hales also established a parallel music career by becoming a successful, sought after writer-producer: collaborating with Lianne La Havas (he produced her superb debut album), Bat for Lashes, Tom Chaplin, Mika, Paloma Faith, Disclosure and many others. This has set Matt free from the curse of every commercial musician out there i.e. not attached to having a hit. 

Still, despite being a collaborator for hire, Hales has released no less than seven albums as Aqualung. The most recent, Dead Letters, is something truly special. When I heard it I immediately invited Matt on the show to get the inside story on his rather unusual career journey. 

Hales is often compared with the great & the good, from Radiohead & Coldplay, to Elton John and Talk Talk. It makes sense when you listen to Dead Letters, an album in which he has let all of these influences come to the surface:

“This is a record where I am paying homage to the record collection that I was raised on. There is Elton, Stevie Wonder, Bread, Toto - Pet Sounds of course, that’s the muesli I was raised on”. 

And if you thought the key change is dead in pop music, then Matt Hales is out to prove you wrong on Dead Letters. As he mentions in our conversation, he can literally “do anything he wants”.

Perhaps that’s the very definition of musical longevity.

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Estelle is old school. With a modern twist yes, but nonetheless, if this most eclectic of artists leans in any particular direction it is towards ‘classic’. She even says it in one her own songs; "I'm not of-the-moment. I am a classic, yeah, I live at the MoMA” (The Life, opening track of her 2012 album All of Me). She is quite the proverbial eclectic artist - edgy but not (un)necessarily shocking, traditional but modern enough to make her point in the era of precision-tool song production, and forever flitting between a dozen sub-genres (across hip hop, R&B, pop, reggae and soul). 

Classify Estelle at your peril. 

New album Stay Alta has throwback quality to it that is extremely welcome in the current climate. Although it was conceived as a post-pandemic record, it works effectively as a tonic for the turbulent times we are living through right now. It channels Diana Ross, Donna Summer, Stevie Wonder and…Melba Moore. Like records by those artists, Stay Alta is an organic listen and auto-tune is strictly off limits. But somehow, it is modern. 

Stay Alta themes include gratitude, celebration, joy and defiance but not the migraine-inducing platitudinal kind - just the straightforward take it or leave it kind. You should take it. It is album number six across a career of two decades, so Estelle does not subscribe to FOBF, the “fear of being forgotten” that is the scourge of many modern pop artists in today’s fast-flowing pop scene. Instead, she is happy to take her time. There is something to note in her approach about time, longevity, and lineage. Estelle seems acutely aware of whose shoulders she stands on. It’s not unconnected to the fact that The Estelle Show (her 5-days a week Apple Music radio show, which won an esteemed Gracie Award for Women In Media) provides a platform to put her fellow peers and new artists in context alongside legendary artists. Classics and new classics sit side by side - why can’t broadcast radio pull that off? Anyhow, credit to Estelle. It was her idea, her pitch to Apple, and now it's her show. And that is how Estelle rolls. 

At this stage, she is a serious artist living outside of the mainstream and not really in need of a hit anyhow. But yes, she is a songwriter and an artist with the potential to strike at any time. She knows where she is from and how to reach deep into that well. 

“I see credit and beauty in artists who know where they come from because you then have a well to pull from. If I know funk and I’m a new era funk artist I know where to find that bassline. If I’m a drum & bass artist I can go to that Roni Size beat and sample it or repurpose it. Nothing’s new under the sun”. 

Damn right. 

Season 12 of The Art of Longevity is Powered by Bang & Olufsen. Long copy can be found on www.songsommelier.com.

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Suede (or, The London Suede for our friends in the USA) has reached 30 years in the business (well, minus the seven years the band was officially split in 2003). As singer Brett Anderson hits mid-50s, you cannot accuse him, or the band, of being boring. The energy and vitality of Suede’s 9th studio album Autofiction is striking, as are the band's recent live performances. More than that however, the album is Suede’s strongest batch of rock songs since, well, perhaps since ever. 

This is all the more remarkable in a sense, coming off the back of The Blue Hour (2018), which was also a superb record, albeit very different to Autofiction, with lush production, strings and field recordings. It suggests Suede is a band reborn, on top of their game. 

I spoke to Brett on the eve of the release of Autofiction and found him in fine fettle, excited at the prospect of promoting the record (how refreshing is that!) and discovering how it would land with both critics and fans. Not least because in a sense, it is a full-circle record that harks back to Suede’s beginnings 30 years ago (that first EP The Drowners in 1992) but at the same time comes across fresh, confident and modern.

This isn’t just another episode of The Art of Longevity but one in which Brett and I discuss the whole concept of the show (which he inspired) - the career arc of rock & pop bands - a process that has "all the inevitability of the lifecycle of a frog”. 

The way Brett put it himself in the second part of his autobiography, Afternoons With The Blinds Drawn, is thus:

“Every band follows the same sort of career arc with the same points plotted grimly along the way like the Stations of the Cross: struggle, success, success, excess, disintegration and if you’re lucky - enlightenment”. 

Having assessed the careers of many other artists that have guested on the show using ‘Brett’s Curve’ (sic) as a benchmark, how would Brett reflect on Suede’s career with hindsight and the objectivity of wisdom along with freedom from the attachments of the bands earlier career?

The answer might surprise you...

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How to characterise an American indie band over almost three decades and 10 albums, each with a subtly different flavour? One recent review I read described Death Cab For Cutie as “masters of dreamy, emo-tinged Americana” and while that’s rather simplistic, their previous two albums have had a ‘dreamy’ feel, a softer production and reflective almost gentle character (or as Ben Gibbard described one of their earlier records, “Prozac happiness”). 

The band's new LP Asphalt Meadows has something more vital and varied going for it however, with the band capturing a combination of post-pandemic zest for life with a state of self-reflection. There’s a depth and a mystery to the record that somehow seems fitting with the band’s current standing – one of a handful of longevous indie Americana bands that can make exactly the music they want to make with no interference. Not even from a major label such as Atlantic Records. Ben Gibbard confirms:

“Atlantic Records have never once stepped in to change something or baulked at a creative decision we’ve made. It’s been the exact opposite of the horror story narrative that you hear about all the time”.

Indeed. The music industry’s elephant’s graveyard of indie bands that signed to major labels but could not make it work may be large, but it does not and will not see the likes of Death Cab For Cutie. Over almost 18 years with Atlantic Records, you’ve made things work - what has been the secret to that?

Nick Harmer:

“It is a symbiotic relationship. Atlantic has brought stability and worked steadily and have become a dependable band from their perspective. There have been so many elements of luck to it but we’ve both worked really hard on every record”.

While Nick is impressed at how many new bands seen to arrive 'fully formed', like all bands of longevity, Ben Gibbard struggles with the idea of being in a position to advise bands now as to how to forge that path, especially in today’s more competitive and less forgiving circumstances. 

“The stakes for saying something uncouth in an interview or having a bad show, for fucking up – are so much higher now than when we started. It’s important to remember to have fun. We’ve always gone in with the singular focus of making music that we’re proud of and that says something about our lives”.

Death Cab are not always immediately associated with fun, the abstract themes in their songs often coming across more thoughtful and cerebral. But they have arrived in a place where they can enjoy their longevity and let the music go where they want it. Something tells me their fans will be equally happy with the place they are in today. 

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Before I spoke with Danny McNamara, he’d emailed me to say how much he loved Brett Anderson’s quote - the one we’ve set out to make famous on The Art of Longevity. Not only did he recognise it as capturing the band’s career but Embrace have been through the cycle at least twice - the struggle (1990-’96), stratospheric rise (their debut The Good Will Out), the crash to the bottom (that first time dropped by their label) and enlightenment (Out Of Nothing). And then all over again.

Consider - the band had been on a three year break from 2007-2010 and then holed up creating a new record for all of four years - setting out nobly to better their debut. Meanwhile, the music industry changed beyond all recognition. Spotify had launched, and was into hyper-growth by 2014 - destroying the CD and threatening to make the album concept redundant. As such, the band’s most experimental and sonically ambitious record (and my personal favourite), the self-titled Embrace, was a commercial disappointment at a time when it became difficult to even assess what commercial success was for any album.

Still, Embrace served its purpose, setting the band on course for a creative renaissance after they had been burnt out by album number five This New Day in 2006). We spoke as the band released album number eight, the outstanding and humbly titled How To Be A Person Like Other People. 

As a recently self-diagnosed introvert and medically diagnosed as OCD, McNamara has ridden the music industry rollercoaster and done rather well to stay sane. In recent times, marriage and fatherhood have further set Danny and his bandmates on a stable course, to not only carry on making music for as long as they want to (nobody can drop them or stop them) but to make their music. Embrace’s brand of emotionally charged and sometimes swaggering pop-rock is a humanistic joy - if you simply surrender to it. A sort of pop music version of freediving. 

There’s a good heart within Embrace and the ambition to keep getting better still beats strongly. 

"What Embrace are, is really special and what we should be doing with our energy is mining that, not ploughing the field wide but digging down and see what there is in the ground. Then we will be honouring what we’ve been given as a group and that way, we can get better". 

Danny's take on the band's longevity is reflective, funny and contains more humility than you'll get from those 'hedge fund gangsters' and tech billionaires that run the business he and his band have survived for 32 years. They should mark his words!

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Having helped pave the way, Alela remains at the heart of a very strong current movement for female troubadours - a scene driven by the success of the likes of Sharon Van Etten, Angel Oslen, Julien Baker and even Phoebe Bridgers - but harking back to Joni Mitchell. It was Cat Power that proved an inspiration to Alela herself when she first started out making The Pirate’s Gospel, then aged 19. 

It’s taken almost five years for Alela to create another record since Cusp. Between raising her two young daughters (making a lot of snacks), renovating her Portland home and like all of us - getting through the global pandemic - it has taken time, graft and discipline to craft songs to a standard she has set for herself. But once she got into the studio (not just any studio but Tucker Martine’s ‘Flora’ in Northeast Portland, Oregon) the songs were recorded quickly. The new album Looking Glass processes the themes of domesticity, love & loss and how to face these dark times. In Alela’s words the record is about:

“Feeling the lightness and the darkness of the world at large. How do you get through your day-to-day life? How do we create a sweet, peaceful world for your children when there’s a lot of chaos out there”.

No doubt the record will act as a tonic to the blurry gloom outside your window. I would highly recommend you drink it down. 

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