Talking with kids about sex, pornography, and sexuality can stir up fear, shame, and a deep sense of inadequacy for many parents. In this episode, Dan and Rachael sit down with author and parent-educator Laurie Krieg to think through a steadier, wiser way forward—one rooted in the gospel, attunement, and ongoing relationship rather than one-time "big talks."

Drawing from her new book "Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World," Laurie shares her own journey as she offers parents help to move from reactivity to intentionality. She names why these conversations feel so overwhelming—often because of our own unresolved stories—and invites parents to do their own work so they can show up with courage and calm. 

Rather than avoiding hard topics or responding with fear and control, Laurie offers concrete, age-appropriate ways to engage kids through many small conversations over time, helping parents become the trusted "anchor" their children return to when confusion, curiosity, or exposure inevitably arises.

This conversation is especially helpful for parents navigating early exposure to pornography, online content, and rapidly changing technology. Laurie shares practical language parents can use, how to reduce shame when kids encounter inappropriate material, and how to frame boundaries not around fear, but around God's beautiful design for bodies, intimacy, and care. 

Throughout, the emphasis is clear: it's never too late to begin, repair matters more than perfection, and wisdom is something parents can grow into—step by step—as they walk alongside their children in a complex world.

=====

For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.

At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

You can find transcripts, show notes, and more for each episode at:
theallendercenter.org/podcast

To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/

In a country that is hurting and fractured by deep division, many of us are wondering how to remain rooted in love. As followers of Jesus, the question before us is not simply what do we think, but how do we stay human, attentive, and faithful in such a time as this?

In this thoughtful and spacious conversation, Rachael Clinton Chen welcomes theologian and author Kat Armas into a much-needed dialogue about power, imagination, and what it means to remain grounded and joined together in the way of Jesus.

Drawing from her newest book, "Liturgies for Resisting Empire: Seeking Community, Belonging, and Peace in a Dehumanizing World," Kat invites listeners beyond political binaries and party lines into a deeper reckoning with how power has shaped our stories. 

Here, empire names more than a political system. It refers to any way of organizing life—political, theological, cultural, or personal—that relies on power and fear to preserve itself, rather than love, humility, and mutual care. Often, its influence goes unnamed, shaping our imaginations, our bodies, our relationships, and even our spirituality.

Against this backdrop, Kat offers liturgies as embodied practices that can steady us, give us language when words feel thin, and help us resist dehumanization together.

This episode is not about debating political parties or policies. Instead, it invites us to slow down, to notice what's been "in the water" all along, and to return our attention to Jesus. We hope this conversation offers something more sustaining than easy answers—a holy resistance shaped by presence, community, and love.

About the Allender Center Podcast:

For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.

At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at:

theallendercenter.org/podcast

To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:

https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/

Thanksgiving is right around the corner. It can be a day of tradition, family, and connection. It can also bring tension, exhaustion, grief, or even trigger old wounds. 

Today, Dan and Rachael reflect on the complex reality of the holiday: the joy, the nostalgia, the chaos, and the moments that can leave us feeling overwhelmed or even "devoured" by family dynamics.

Drawing on their own stories and looking ahead to this year's holiday, they explore how to hold gratitude alongside grief, and how to create meaningful connection without losing yourself. 

Whether you're hosting, traveling, or creating a quiet space for yourself, this conversation offers gentle guidance and practical tools. You'll learn how to approach Thanksgiving with intention, better honor your boundaries, and participate with a heart that's more open to the day, however it unfolds.

What exactly is Narrative Focused Trauma Care? It's grounded in the belief that healing is not only possible but also essential to the unfolding gospel story within and around us. This holistic approach integrates psychology and theology to holistically engage the heartbreaking impact of trauma and abuse with compassion and care through story. 

The Allender Center specializes in training people to understand their own stories in order to more deeply enter the lives of those they are called to love and serve. We come alongside to equip and develop skills for wading into the difficult waters of heartache, trauma, and abuse.

The foundations of Narrative Focused Trauma Care are unpacked in Level I training, where you'll explore your own narratives and those of others, with the ultimate goal of moving towards healing – for yourself, your relationships, and the broader community, paving the way for future generations

In this episode, Dan and Rachael will lead us through the four intensive weekends of Narrative Focused Trauma Care Level I training, offering insights into what participants can expect and some of the transformative experiences that wait for you.

Dan emphasizes, "We want people to imagine in the small and in whatever ways they are drawn to dream, to begin to move into… better trauma care through story and ultimately the story of Jesus."

Be sure to catch the first part of this two-part conversation where we go deeper into the "why" behind Narrative Focused Trauma Care.

We believe that healing, wholeness, connection, and flourishing are not just possibilities - it's what we're made for. We're meant to know and to be known.

Join Dan and Rachael as they guide you through a profound exploration of Narrative Focused Trauma Care and its theological roots. This conversation shares some of the "why" behind our healing and training offerings at the Allender Center.

They delve into the Genesis narrative, illuminating the intersection between beauty and brokenness, tracing the shattering of shalom, and recognizing the lasting impact of trauma.

Dan introduces the concept of "already and not yet," framing salvation as a journey encompassing past, present, and future. The conversation emphasizes the intricate interplay between brokenness and beauty, acknowledging humanity's struggle to find connection amidst trauma.

Get ready for an insightful exploration that will deepen your understanding of Narrative Focused Trauma Care and its theological foundations, as we journey together toward healing and hope. 

Be sure to join us next week to unpack the specifics of Narrative Focused Trauma Care and the training process involved in this holistic approach.

Forming new, meaningful adult friendships or maintaining friendships throughout different seasons of life can be challenging. Can you really be friends with coworkers or the other parents at your kids' soccer games? And how do you tell if someone's just an acquaintance or a true friend?

What makes a friendship strong? How can you tell if you're a good friend and if someone's a good friend to you? 

Dan and Rachael take a look at the joy, depth, and sometimes messy beauty of genuine connections between people. From shared purposes to meaningful conversations and navigating conflicts with grace, they explore the essential ingredients of true friendship.

"Everyone's disciplined for what they love," states Dr. Dan Allender. 

The quest for becoming "more disciplined" prompts questions about motivation. Is it fueled by a higher purpose or overshadowed by shame and guilt? Does discipline revolve around self-control or simply a desire for control? What are the costs of being disciplined - and what goodness results from it?

In their discussion, Dan and Rachael dive into these questions and more. They explore the complexities of discipline, the significance of small disciplined actions, and the sustaining power of delight and beauty.

This week, Dr. J. Derek McNeil, the president of The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, engages in a candid dialogue with Dr. Dan Allender, exploring the multifaceted challenges of leading in today's turbulent times.

Whether you hold a formal leadership role or not, this conversation speaks to the universal nature of leadership. Whether as a parent, grandparent, or friend, each of us has a level of influence on others and grapples with the burden of providing guidance amid uncertainty.

The conversation explores the tension between agency and dependence, and the balancing act of taking action and surrendering to a larger divine plan. 

Derek candidly shares his journey, grappling with the uncertainties of life while prioritizing his mental, physical, and spiritual well-being. Drawing from his upbringing and faith tradition, he finds solace in scripture, particularly Jeremiah 29:11, during moments of uncertainty and despair. His emphasis on cultivating a support system and fostering collaboration underscores the importance of community in leadership roles.

As you engage with this conversation between two insightful leaders, we hope it deepens your understanding of the complexities of leadership and sparks a sense of renewed hope amid life's uncertainties.

Join Dan and Rachael as they continue last week's discussion about spiritual abuse. This week, they shift their focus to the healing process, exploring the challenges of naming and reconciling our experiences with spiritual abuse, particularly the difficulty in trusting others with our stories.

Spiritual abuse casts a shadow, creating a landscape of distrust, fragmentation, and isolation, often cutting us off from the very thing that can help us heal - one another.

Drawing from years of conducting Story Workshops, Dan and Rachael underscore the transformative power found in the collective sharing of our stories. It is this understanding that has led to the creation of the Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing, which is designed to serve as a safe space for sharing, grieving, and hopefully, discovering more of the goodness of God within your own story.

If you've felt the impact of spiritual abuse and are seeking a supportive, facilitated community to navigate the healing process, consider joining this transformative Story Workshop, happening March 15-17, 2024. You can learn more at theallendercenter.org/workshops

As we prepare for our upcoming Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing, Dan and Rachael return to discuss to the insidious issue of spiritual abuse and the broken systems that perpetuate this type of harm.

As many systems around us are crumbling, we hear story after story about overt abuse and misuse of power in high-profile churches and ministries. We also know that spiritual abuse can manifest across a spectrum, with some individuals perpetrating harm knowingly, while others may unknowingly be influenced by the systems they are part of, operating with good intentions or lacking awareness of subtle forms of spiritual abuse.

Listen to learn how to recognize some of the subtleties of spiritual abuse – and also consider how to lean in as we personally and collectively seek redemption. Knowing that every system bears some brokenness, the question becomes:  how do we participate? Can we actively seek healing and redemption without giving in to cynicism?

Join us next week for a follow-up to today's conversation. If you have experienced spiritual abuse in your own life, we invite you to join us for the upcoming Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing. Registration is now open at theallendercenter.org/events.

Containment is both something that we need to receive and it's something that we can provide for others in our roles as parents, spouses, friends, and members of a greater community - particularly during challenging times.

Containment is not about control or maintaining the status quo; instead, it involves creating a safe space for others to express emotions and navigate difficulties.

The concept of containment is closely tied to attunement, which means being aware of others' needs and understanding our own capacity as well.

If you've heard about these concepts but want a deeper understanding and practical implementation in your life, we hope this episode offers you an insightful introduction.

Listener Resources: 

To take a deeper dive into the concepts of containment, attunement, and attachment theory in your own life, particularly as they relate to your family of origin, and learn to provide spaces of containment and healing for others, we recommend enrolling in the Story Sage Series online course from the Allender Center.

If you're a visual learner, we also recommend checking out Lindsay Braman's article and stunning sketchnotes which wonderfully explain the concepts of containment and attunement.

As we step into 2024, the global landscape presents us with profound challenges – from conflicts in Palestine and Israel to widespread war, economic disparities, and political divisions. Add to this mix the heightened levels of anxiety and rage permeating our society, all unfolding against the backdrop of an election year here in the U.S.

In the midst of this complexity, how do we navigate our growing personal and collective anxiety, and can it be an opportunity for us to live more fully according to the gospel?

To explore these questions, we're honored to welcome back Curtis Chang, the author of "The Anxiety Opportunity" and co-author of "The After Party," as our first guest of the year. Curtis chats with us about how engaging with our own anxiety and that of others can pave the way for more restorative conversations and offer more hope as we look into the year ahead.

Join us for this enlightening conversation to learn more about Curtis's work with his latest project, "The After Party," in today's episode. If you missed our previous discussion with Curtis last spring, you can catch it here.

It's become an annual tradition for Dan and Becky Allender to reflect on their year on the podcast, and today, we get to hear their personal reflections on 2023.

They discuss the loss of dear friends this year, the fragility of life, the heartache of crises happening around the world, and the impact of disappointment on some of their personal plans and dreams. 

In the midst of grief, they also express gratitude for the goodness they have experienced this year.

As we listen, themes of simplicity, aging, and the awareness of life's brevity emerge. The Allenders discuss the need for kindness and grace in facing disappointment and the importance of not succumbing to fear, leaving us with hope as we look forward to the new year.

Marriage always carries both joy and challenge… but what happens when life pushes you to the edge? When trauma, illness, loss, stress, or sheer exhaustion stretch your relationship beyond its limits?

In this tender and often humorous conversation, Rachael Clinton Chen interviews Dan and Becky Allender to explore what it means to love and be loved through seasons of extremity—those times when the demands of life exceed our capacity to meet them.

From everyday frustrations to the deep pain of seasons of loss, physical suffering, and ministry fatigue, Dan and Becky reflect honestly on how marriage can expose both our best and our most broken parts. 

If you're wondering how to stay connected when life feels impossible—or how to find beauty and intimacy on the other side of pain—this episode is a gentle invitation to hope.

This episode engages the topic of some difficult topics, including pregnancy loss. Listener discretion is advised.

As you anticipate and prepare for your holiday feast, we invite you to pull up a seat at our table to discuss the rich sensuality of the aromas, flavors, and sounds that are embedded in the festive season. 

Joining us for this discussion is Lauren Peiser, the Manager of Partnerships at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Today, however, we affectionately dub her our "resident gastronomist" on account of her passion for the enjoyment of good food and drink.

This conversation not only explores the pleasure of a good meal but also delves into the theological aspects of the table and our relationship with food, drink, and the company of others.

We hope you enjoy this delightful conversation as much as we did. Merry Christmas, friends.

Looking for a good book to curl up with this winter? Dan and Rachael both highly recommend the new book by today's guest, Blaine Eldredge: "The Paradise King."

The book is a unique exploration of Jesus through the Old Testament and into the New, blending historical fiction with a deep engagement with the biblical text.

Blaine joins us today to discuss the inspiration behind the book, sharing a personal journey marked by challenges and loss. The book and our discussion serve as an open invitation to embark on an exploration of wonder, curiosity, and the transformative power of storytelling.

You can find "The Paradise King" at your favorite bookstores, and don't miss our enlightening episode with Blaine Eldredge.

You have a story and that story matters. Your story in your family of origin significantly affects the way you think, feel, and act in the world today. This is why Dan Allender says, "It is time to listen to your story."

What if healing begins by listening to your story? By reflecting on—and engaging—the experiences in your growing-up years, you can better understand why your brain has been shaped in the way that it has.

These are the topics that Dan Allender, Cathy Loerzel, and Adam Young explore in today's bonus podcast episode, which is a co-production between The Place We Find Ourselves Podcast and the Allender Center Podcast.

If you want to experience more of the healing power of understanding your own story, join Adam, Cathy, and Dan in Atlanta, GA, on Saturday, February 3, 2024, for the StoryWork Conference. In-person and livestream tickets are available. CEU's are also available for therapists.

🎫 Register at adamyoungcounseling.com

What's the best present you've ever gotten? And what's the present you were the most proud to give?

Join Dan and Rachael in today's episode as they explore the nuances of gift-giving during the Christmas season. They share insights into their personal approaches to selecting and presenting gifts for their loved ones, while also navigating the complexities of holiday expectations, addressing grief and heartache that can come up, and emphasizing the importance of self-honoring.

The conversation extends beyond material presents to the importance of "presence" – both in relationships and in connection with the divine during the holiday season.

As they anticipate the upcoming Advent season, Dan and Rachael take a moment to look back, sharing their distinct perspectives on Christmas and delving into memories from their childhood associated with the holiday. Whether it's a genuine love for the rituals and traditions or a more somber reflection grounded in challenging past experiences, we're exploring the diverse emotional landscapes that the season can evoke. 

We invite you to listen as we discuss the role of nostalgia, memory, and location in order to allow for more compassionate and empathetic engagement with ourselves and with others as we navigate the joys and challenges that come with this season.

As we approach a holiday season that's highly focused on food, we're thrilled to be joined by Diane Summers, MS, RDN, CEDS-S, CD, a highly experienced and nationally registered dietitian specializing in the treatment of eating disorders, for an insightful exploration of the multifaceted issue of food insecurity. Drawing on her 19 years of expertise, Diane delves into two essential frameworks through which to understand this critical topic.

The first framework begins with a stark reality: 12.8% (17 million households) in the US face food insecurity, with disproportionately higher rates for Black and Hispanic households, as reported by the USDA. Food insecurity is defined here as the uncertainty or inability to acquire enough food due to insufficient funds or resources.

This conversation also explores a second framework, inviting us to examine food insecurity through the lens of our culture's pervasive obsession with altering bodies through dieting and restrictive eating. A note to listeners that this conversation does mention disordered eating but does not go into detail. 

Diane, along with Dan and Rachael, navigate the delicate terrain of recognizing the privilege of having access to enough food while also acknowledging the potentially unhealthy relationships many harbor with food. The discussion touches on the impact of societal norms, trauma associated with growing up in a diet culture, and the subsequent internalization of food as an adversary.

This episode provides a thought-provoking and compassionate examination of the complex issue of food insecurity, with insights into the societal, cultural, and personal dynamics involved.

Listen to our previous conversation with Diane Summers in Food, Kindness, and Our Bodies

Resources cited in this episode: Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond; USDA Food Security in the U.S. Statistics, 2022

Have you ever wondered if you or a loved one may have adult ADHD? It's estimated that more than 8 million Americans, nearly 5% of the population, are living with this condition – many without even realizing it, as reported by WebMD.

While ADHD is a neurodevelopmental condition present from birth, it often goes undiagnosed until adulthood. This topic is gaining increasing awareness, and an adult diagnosis can lead to newfound self-awareness, helping individuals shed years of shame and confusion.

Joining us as our esteemed guest is Dr. Pam Davis, the Director of Graduate Programs in Counseling at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. Dr. Davis is a Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor in North Carolina and a Registered Play Therapist Supervisor for the Association of Play Therapy.

In this episode, Dr. Davis answers our questions about the symptoms of adult ADHD, the reasons for missed childhood diagnoses, and how to navigate this condition, whether it's within yourself or in your relationships with others. 

Please note that this episode, like all of our podcast content, is not intended to replace medical advice. If you suspect you may have ADHD, it's advisable to seek professional assessment and treatment options from a healthcare provider.

Trauma is inevitable in a fallen world. It can range from small "t" traumas to capital "T" traumas, but the common thread is the violation of your dignity as a human being. 

If trauma is inevitable, this means we are all encountering stories of trauma every day - in our own lives and in the lives of those around us.

So what are we to do when someone we love or care for is hurting? You might find yourself saying, "I'm so sorry to hear that," but often, it feels like you're not doing enough to truly help.

To make a real difference, we must begin by gaining a deeper understanding of the impact of trauma and abuse, starting with our own experiences.

If today's conversation strikes a chord with you and you're ready to explore your own trauma stories to better support others with courage and care, we invite you to check out the newly launched Effective Trauma Care Online Course.

For more information, visit theallendercenter.org/online-courses

How can we become more capable of repairing our relationships with ourselves, others, and with God?

In this episode, Dan and Rachael dive into the concept of repair in both personal and larger societal contexts.

They stress the importance of humility in our repair process, introducing the concept of "epistemic humility" as a way to express love by making space for others. It's a curious approach that acknowledges the limitations of our perspective, which is shaped by our unique experiences.

The conversation becomes personal as they reflect on a past publication that may have caused harm and explore how these experiences can be used for growth and repair.

By practicing repair with justice, mercy, and humility (Micah 6:8) in our day-to-day personal relationships, we can also begin to address broader societal issues with a similar approach. Rachael closes out this episode with this reminder: "Repair is a core part of what it means to love and be loved."

This episode contains brief explicit language that may be offensive to some listeners; discretion is advised.

We're so pleased to be joined by therapist and author Aundi Kolber, known for her acclaimed works "Try Softer" and, most recently, "Strong Like Water."

As a licensed professional counselor specializing in trauma- and body-centered therapies, Aundi's expertise is deeply informed by her personal journey of healing from complex childhood trauma. 

Aundi candidly shares her personal journey of healing, from confronting the profound extent of her past trauma and discovering healing methods that nurture a sense of safety, self-care, and self-compassion.

She shares: "Part of my own journey, and I think my writing, I hope, I pray, that the trajectory of my writing is about that to live into these values actually has required me to get softer so I could get stronger."

We invite you to join Dan, Rachael, and Aundi on this week's episode of the Allender Center Podcast.

This episode contains brief explicit language that may be offensive to some listeners; discretion is advised.

Ever have a day where everything goes sideways and your body just won't calm down? In this episode, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore emotional dysregulation: why our nervous systems spiral under stress, especially with a history of trauma, and how we can respond with mercy rather than shame.

Through humor, real-life stories, and insights from both neuroscience and Scripture, they show that dysregulation isn't weakness; it's a signal from your body asking for care and compassion. Their conversation also offers practical ways to tend to your body, mind, and soul.

Listener Resources:

• Read: Aundi Kolber's Try Softer and Strong Like Water

• Read: Resmaa Manakem's My Grandmother's Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies

• Listen to: Self Care and Practical Grounding Techniques on the Allender Center Podcast 

Download the free worksheet: Beyond Self-Care: Build Sustainable Practices from the Center for Transforming Engagement at The Seattle School

When it comes to telling the truth, we grapple with a fundamental tension— we're living in a fallen world as imperfect beings, yet we also recognize and long for the beauty of truth.

When it comes to relationships, especially close ones, this tension can become even more complex. The fear of potential consequences often competes with our desire to be honest and authentic.

Navigating this path can be tricky. There's a fine line between being authentic and being cruel. What's needed is a generous spirit, an understanding of how much truth we can bear, and kindness.

Dan closes the episode with the gentle reminder: "And this is why I keep coming back to Jesus being able to say, I am the way and the truth and the life. And if I'm intending to follow, to be aligned and alive and molded, then I want that way. I want that truth. I want that life. And I'm going to find it not in myself, not in you, but in him, and therefore in me, and you and us. And it just holds the tension that what we dream we will never get, but what we dream we will become."

Ever wondered why we sometimes keep the truth hidden, even from those we love most? Today, we're exploring the intricacies of truth and deceit with questions like:

Why do we resort to little white lies?

What drives us to withhold the truth?

Is keeping a secret ever an act of love?

And how do we navigate the weight of truth when it feels unbearable?

The humbling reality is that none of us can handle the unfiltered truth all the time and we all have the capacity for deception.

How does recognizing our inability to bear the full truth serve us? How can we move toward greater honesty and authenticity, both within ourselves and in our relationships with others?

Join Dan and Rachael as they navigate the depths of truth, deception, and the hope that emerges from our quest for more honesty and love.

Join us for an all-new episode of the Allender Center Podcast as we sit down with our dear friend Matthias Roberts, author of the upcoming book "Holy Runaways: Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion."

Matthias, a queer psychotherapist specializing in religious and spiritual trauma, brings a unique perspective to the conversation. His book is a beacon of hope for those who have felt ignored, oppressed, or rejected by their religious communities and churches. It offers a clear path forward, centered on speaking truth, deep listening, and acting with compassion.

Join co-hosts Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen as they engage in a conversation with Matthias about the origins of his latest book, the struggle between staying put and envisioning fresh paths forward, and the unexpected connections between concrete and our faith. Yes, concrete.

If you're eager to explore a fresh perspective on faith, healing, and the power of community, this episode is a must-listen.

Plus, don't miss Matthias's book, "Holy Runaways," now available for pre-order at https://matthiasroberts.com/holyrunaways/ and coming to bookstores everywhere on October 3rd.

Welcome to a very special episode of the Allender Center Podcast! We can hardly believe it, but today marks a monumental milestone – our 500th episode! 🎉

Join your hosts, Dan and Rachael, as they come together to celebrate this incredible journey with you, our listeners, and to answer some of your questions about the inner workings of the conversations that happen here on the Allender Center Podcast.

As a heartfelt thank you for your support, we're doing something extra special:

Head over to theallendercenter.org/500 to not only listen but to WATCH the live recording of this celebratory episode with Dan and Rachael. 

You'll also gain access to a special bonus section, where Dan and Rachael dive deeper into your questions and share some personal behind-the-scenes stories. It's a unique peek into the making of the Allender Center Podcast that you won't want to miss.

👉 Get access to this week's video episode and bonus segment at:
theallendercenter.org/500

All of us here at the Allender Center are grateful for your loyal listenership. It's your continued support and engagement that have made this journey so remarkable.

So, we hope you'll join us as we celebrate 500 episodes of growth, healing, and connection. And here's to 500 more!

When we examine the far-reaching impact of spiritual abuse, it becomes evident that it transcends isolated incidents, permeating a broader culture, system, and ideology that inflict harm.

In this week's episode, Rachael engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Joel Kiekintveld, a pastor and Adjunct Professor at The Seattle School, shedding light on the intricate dynamics of systems and cultures that foster spiritually abusive environments.

Joel recently hosted Season 4 of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, called "Church After Mars Hill," in response to the widely popular podcast, "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill." Through their series of conversations, Joel and his guests not only examine Mars Hill Church as a case study to identify the systems, cultures, and leadership structures that contributed to its downfall, but they also create a space for introspection and imagination for what can be done with these lessons learned. In the aftermath of the destruction wrought by spiritually abusive church cultures, their dialogues explore the delicate tension between deconstruction and rebuilding.

We hope you enjoy this conversation and also check out "Church After Mars Hill," the full season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, at transformingengagement.org/podcast 

In a time when divisions seem to define us, can we still foster meaningful conversations capable of driving real change?

In anticipation of the upcoming virtual summit, "Seattle School Connect 2023: Discourse," we're exploring the intricacies and challenges of engaging in discourse with Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President and Provost of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

Discourse isn't simply having a conversation; it's a transformative dialogue that can impact and change us. In this episode hosted by Rachael Clinton Chen, Derek McNeil walks us through some of the challenges we face in a world filled with polarization, trauma, the influence of technology, and much more. He also delineates some of the essential elements necessary for authentic discourse to thrive, emphasizing the creation of intentional and sacred spaces where curiosity and empathetic understanding can truly flourish.

We hope you'll join us for Seattle School Connect 2023: Discourse, a free virtual summit kicking off this fall. This series is designed to engage in challenging discussions in order to enhance our capacity to serve God and neighbor through transforming relationships.

The inaugural event hosted by The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology is centered around the art of discourse, focusing on pertinent cultural topics. With a lineup of 6 live conversations, we aim to explore the practice of constructive conversations while embodying values of humility and hospitality. By engaging in these discussions, attendees will gain insights into bridging gaps, confronting personal assumptions, and building relationships grounded in empathy and growth.

Registration is free and open to all. Learn more at https://theseattleschool.edu/event/connect2023/

We're back with Curt Thompson, MD, to talk about hope.

Have you ever wondered how to summon hope when everything seems bleak? Is hope a fleeting notion or something we can truly cultivate?

Hope, like faith and love, is not just an abstraction, but a skill we can nurture. It's a profound practice that finds its home in both our minds and bodies.

Curt shares: "The things that I pay attention to on purpose, I remember. And what I remember becomes my anticipated future. Hope is a function of the mind that addresses the future. And this is what I mean when I say hope is a thing that I form by paying attention to the glory that is offered to me in the middle of my pain, in the present moment. And it requires lots and lots of practice, but it then is not like, 'Oh, maybe I'll have hope. I hope I have hope.' It's a thing that I maybe I won't like. And so… I'm going to have to practice." 

We thrive on shared experiences of hope within a community. Even a brief 3-minute interaction can spark the daring prospect of relying on another person. Our communal practice etches hope into our brain's pathways, grounding it in the way we engage with one another. Although personal introspection has its place, the true growth of hope blossoms within the context of human connection.

Tune in to this thought-provoking dialogue as we explore the intricacies of cultivating hope and the transformative power of embracing it together.

As you listen, we'd be honored if you shared this episode with someone else, too!

theallendercenter.org/podcast

This week, we have the privilege of welcoming psychiatrist, speaker and author, Curt Thompson, MD, to the Allender Center Podcast.

Curt skillfully guides us through a journey into the roots of shame within the human experience. He explores its emergence even before the infamous act of consuming the forbidden fruit, noting that the serpent's temptation, often overlooked as an act of violence, effectively exploits and manipulates shame. This manipulation resonates through time, manifesting in ways that disconnect individuals from one another and create internal divides, subsequently impacting personal unity and relationships.

Joined by co-hosts Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, this conversation unfolds at the crossroads of theology, neuroscience, and the intricate tapestry of the human experience.

We think you'll encounter at least a few thought-provoking concepts that you may not have considered before – we certainly did! And there's still more to come. Stay tuned for Part 2 of our engaging discussion with Dr. Curt Thompson next week.

Let's talk about gaslighting — a manipulation tactic that seeks to distort reality and erode one's sense of self. In this episode, Dan and Rachael dissect the mechanics of gaslighting, from its manifestation in personal relationships to its insidious presence within larger structures and societal frameworks.

Gaslighting operates in the shadows, a subtle and insidious act that can be challenging to spot and break free from. 

Our hope is that this conversation will not only help you identify instances of gaslighting but also shed light on the path toward profound healing. 

When trauma occurs, how can you respond effectively in those critical moments? Tragedy is an inevitable part of life, and having immediate tools to respond can help mitigate compounding trauma. 

Join Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen as they offer a practical framework for engaging with traumatic experiences. They present a 3-step process to help you respond: sitting down, grounding yourself with both feet on the floor, and focusing on your breath.

This is not about resolving trauma, but rather how to tend to your body in those crucial moments. While these strategies are not a substitute for professional help or a comprehensive trauma healing journey, the aim is to provide practical tools to regulate and care for yourself or others during those initial minutes or hours after a traumatic experience.

Please note, we understand that discussing traumatic experiences can be triggering, and we encourage you to be compassionate with yourselves as you listen.

Join Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen as they equip you with essential insights and practical tools for trauma triage, empowering you to respond compassionately and effectively to trauma when it occurs.

If you've ever wrestled with the long, uneven work of healing, we hope today's conversation offers courage for the journey. 

Dan shares his recent reflections on the lament of waiting found in Psalm 13 and the persistent pursuit of justice embodied by Erin Brockovich as he rewatched the 2000 film. He and Rachael explore the tension between justice today and the full restoration that is "not yet," bringing these insights into the lingering impact of past sexual abuse.

Healing after sexual abuse shapes not just your body but your whole affective and relational world. When harm happens in relationships, it distorts your sense of safety, trust, and even goodness. You may notice contempt toward your own body, frustration at emotional reactions, or fear around your own desires. Hypervigilance, self-protection, or numbing can become familiar companions, and trusting others—or even yourself—can feel risky. The work of healing in adult life is laborious, requiring vulnerability, patience, and courage to reclaim desire, goodness, and the capacity to be seen.

They consider Psalm 13 as both a cry of lament and a thread of hope. It doesn't promise immediate relief. It simply says, "I trust in your unfailing love," leaving open the possibility that this is not the end of the story.

Healing is not a linear path or a once-and-done process. It's a lifelong journey of tending to what remains—the physiological, emotional, relational, and spiritual aftermath of trauma. And yet, even in the hard work, there is invitation: keep choosing life, goodness, and the beauty of your own desire.

Every small act of caring for your body, each moment of speaking truth, each return to beauty becomes a protest against despair—a glimpse of the wholeness that is coming. Healing itself is a form of justice.

* This episode engages the topic of abuse, particularly sexual abuse and child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.

Join Rachael and Dan in this podcast episode along with Jill Dyer, Facilitator Care Coordinator at the Allender Center, to delve into the transformative power of prayer as a part of the healing journey and connecting with God and ourselves amidst harm and trauma.

We understand that the thought of prayer can evoke different reactions. While it may bring comfort to some, it could also trigger further trauma and avoidance for others. 

With this in mind, this discussion explores various forms of prayer that authentically emerge from within, going beyond structured words and embracing our embodied expressions of prayer. Jill shares how prayers can take many forms, from expressions of laughter to heartfelt laments, all of which can be powerful ways to connect with God. 

The conversation also delves into the importance of attachment with God and how prayer can aid in repairing and deepening that connection. Join us in considering the profound impact of prayer on the journey towards healing and growth.

This week's bonus episode was recorded with philosopher, professor, and author, Dr. Esther Lightcap Meek, as she was entering into her role as the inaugural Senior Scholar at The Seattle School in late 2022.

Joined by hosts Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. Chelle Stearns, this discussion centers around the importance of valuing and delighting in the real. 

Epistemology is "the theory of knowledge," or how we know what we know. Esther argues that knowing is not about acquiring power or control over things but rather about engaging in a loving relationship with reality.

If you have a passion for philosophy, theology, or are simply seeking a fresh perspective, this episode is for you. In fact, you may find yourself listening more than once to extract all the nuggets of wisdom contained within.

We are thrilled to have Marcie Alvis Walker, the creator of the popular Instagram feed "Black Coffee With White Friends" and the author of the compelling memoir "Everybody Come Alive: A Memoir in Essays," as our special guest on this week's episode of the Allender Center Podcast. Hosting this insightful conversation are Rachael Clinton Chen and Linda Royster from the Allender Center.

Marcie shares a bit about her process of writing her debut book, in which she beautifully shares her unique stories with candidness. She skillfully interlaces the tapestry of her cultural upbringing, along with her personal experiences grappling with various forms of racism, perfectionism, and the complex dynamics with her mother. Get ready to be inspired and moved as we hear a glimpse into her powerful narrative, and be sure to pick up her book "Everybody Come Alive: A Memoir in Essays," available wherever books are sold.

About our guest:

Marcie Alvis Walker is the creator of the popular Instagram feed Black Coffee with White Friends. She is also the creator of Black Eyed Bible Stories. Marcie is passionate about what it means to embrace intersectionality, diversity, and inclusion in our spiritual lives. She lives in Chicago with her husband, her college-aged kid Max, and their dog, Evie. Her new book, EVERYBODY COME ALIVE: A MEMOIR IN ESSAYS, is available wherever books are sold.

Listener Resources:

• Check out Marcie Alvis Walker's book, Everybody Come Alive: A Memoir In Essays

• Learn about Allender Center's Racial Trauma & Healing offerings

• Enroll in the Healing the Wounded Heart online course from the Allender Center

• Read Healing the Wounded Heart by Dr. Dan Allender

"We're going to invite you as an audience to address the reality that we need to be mothered and we need to be fathered. Whether we have children, whether we have a partner. We need to be mothered and we need to be fathered. And equally, we need to mother and father," begins Dr. Dan Allender in this week's podcast episode, "The Eternality of Parenting."

We all have a deep need to be loved and to belong. Our parents are meant to be the first people to meet this need, but they are not always able to do so perfectly. We all have wounds from our childhood, and these wounds can continue to shape our lives.

As we grow into adulthood, our fundamental need for love and belonging remains constant, even as we develop the ability to care for others. Recognizing this truth allows us to delve into the profound intersection of being both a parent and a child, as we continue to navigate our personal journeys of growth and healing.

Join Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen as they share personal stories of their experiences with being parented, parenting, and even grandparenting. Together, they delve into the profound concept of "The Eternality of Parenting" and its impact on our lives and relationships.

In relationships, there are conflicts that cannot be resolved with a clear "right" or "wrong." In fact, the Gottman Institute's research cites that nearly 70% of relationship conflicts are unresolvable.

Earlier this year, Dan and Becky Allender talked through unresolvable conflicts from their perspective of over four decades of marriage. Now, we're revisiting the topic with our other co-host, Rachael Clinton Chen, and her husband Michael Chen, who have been married since 2019.

Rachael and Michael explore the complexities of unresolvable conflicts in marriage and share their personal insights about navigating these challenging situations. They both emphasize the importance of story work and how it's given them a common ground to understand and engage how they're feeling. They also highlight the importance of returning to one another after the moment to engage those difficult conversations. In doing so, progress can be made, even if it's not immediate or exactly how either of you would envision it. 

Rachael concludes the conversation by pointing out, "It's not by avoiding conflict or sidestepping it or somehow finding a way around it. It's actually often in the heart of the irresolvable tension that I think the Spirit is making something new. And that really can only be the work of the gospel."

Listener Resources:

• Listen to the episode, "Unresolvable Conflict" with Dan and Becky Allender

• Learn more about the Marriage Conference, happening this October 13-14 in Park City Utah

• Discover more marriage offerings from the Allender Center, including our Marriage Online Course

* Source: The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John M. Gottman, PhD and Nan Silver, 2015

In a world that can feel overwhelming and unsafe, we all long for safe havens in our relationships. But how do we create that safety?

On this episode of the podcast, Rachael Clinton Chen chats with Dan and Becky Allender about their journey to intimacy and understanding in their marriage. Dan and Becky have been married for decades, but they both say that the real transformation in their relationship has happened only in recent years.

They credit much of this breakthrough to doing story work and understanding their own family of origin stories, as well as each other's. But they also point out that creating awareness alone is just the beginning. Deciding to enter into their relationship with kindness and curiosity has helped them build trust and safety with each other.

Rachael points out: "The more we honor one another's need for safety and meet each other there and rebuild a different kind of trust that we're capable of, that it's actually the more risks we can take in our relationship and we can take together. Because there's a trust "

If you're seeking ways to build trust and closeness in your most important relationships, we hope you'll find this conversation thought-provoking and insightful.

If you and your partner would like to discover more about your stories, grow in kindness and care, and find courage in conflict, we invite you to join us for the Marriage Conference this October 13-14, 2023, in beautiful Park City, Utah. Learn more at theallendercenter.org/marriage

With the arrival of summer, there is an expectation of rest and play. But for many, true rest is elusive. The demands of work, family, and financial responsibilities often hinder our ability to slow down and embrace rest. In our society, busyness is glorified, and we often fear being still, as it may require us to confront our own heartache.

However, reflecting on the invitation of Jesus in Matthew 11:28-30, we are prompted to consider the joy and sweetness that can be found when we rest. 

Dan mentioned in "Sabbath, Explained," a previous podcast episode: "We need a taste of Eden to be able to continue engaging in the issues of a fallen world and our own fallen heart. But in that, it's also a taste of the coming kingdom. A taste of what we are meant to know today and yet we will one day know in fullness."

While we may not achieve instant transition from a hectic pace to complete stillness, taking gradual steps towards rest has the potential to bring about joy and transformation.

Related Resources:

• Listen to more Allender Center Podcast episodes about Sabbath

• Read Sabbath by Dr. Dan Allender

Artists, creatives, and music lovers, join us in welcoming special guests, Daniel and Lauren Goans, the musical duo who make Lowland Hum. 

In their chat with Dan and Rachael, Daniel and Lauren share a bit of their stories as creatives, talking about their life as artists, their journey of creating music, and the changes they experienced after becoming parents. They reflect on the mysterious and healing nature of singing and songwriting, how music comes through them, and the importance of being present in the moment.

The conversation also examines the significance of the passage from Ephesians chapter five, focusing on the invitation to be engaged and connected with oneself and with others, rather than solely pursuing a disembodied spiritual practice. 

Join us for "The Spirituality of Song" as we explore the artistic journey, some of the complexities of transitioning into new life stages, and the transformative nature of music and the creative process.

From gardening to cooking, acting to playing an instrument, building to writing, painting, and more – there's a profound connection between creativity and the spirituality of crafting. The act of making, building, and tending to something carries a healing and integrating power to our bodies, minds, and souls.

In this episode, we are thrilled to have Melissa Dowell and Jordan Dowell as our special guests. Melissa, not only the Allender Center's Product Development Manager but also a talented theater actor, and her husband Jordan Dowell, a graduate of The Seattle School, an exceptional fine furniture maker, and the founder of This Is Urban Made. 

Joining Dan and Rachael, this creative couple discuss their creative processes and explore the profound beauty, risk, and fulfillment that can come with engaging in our respective crafts. 

Do you have a craft that resonates with you? If not, don't worry! Tune in to this episode and perhaps this conversation will inspire you to uncover the craft that may be hidden within your own life.

In a world that often prioritizes rationality and intellect over intuition and our bodies' cues, can we really "trust our gut"? 

In this episode, Dan and Rachael explore the historical and cultural division between body and soul, shedding light on how our Western society tends to overlook the stories held within our bodies. 

Drawing from a biblical perspective, they challenge the notion of this separation, highlighting the notion that our bodies are good and created in the image of God.

By recognizing that the division between body and soul is a consequence of brokenness rather than an intended design, we can embark on a path towards healing, integration, and flourishing.

Healing from spiritual abuse and religious trauma is not a simple, linear journey. In this week's episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Rachael Clinton Chen sits down with Dr. Hillary McBride—psychologist, researcher, and author of "Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing"—to explore the invisible wounds that trauma leaves on our minds, bodies, and spirits.

They talk about:

• How trauma can be reinforced by the very systems meant to guide and protect us.
  
  

• The profound importance of witnessing, connection, and radical welcoming in your recovery journey.
  
  

• Recovering parts of ourselves that were buried under burdens we were never meant to carry.
  
  

• What it means to grieve, to repair, and to show up for ourselves and our communities.

This conversation is an invitation to sit tenderly with your own story, to bear witness to your pain, and to glimpse the possibility of love, mercy, and goodness in the midst of it.

You can order your copy of "Holy Hurt" by Hillary L. McBride, PhD, here: https://hillarylmcbride.com/holy-hurt-book/

Shame is a universal experience that can impact our ability to fully engage with the world. It arises when we feel exposed or seen, creating a vulnerable moment where judgment looms, leaving us feeling tainted and unworthy.

In this episode, Dan and Rachael explore some of the characters, themes, and settings that have shaped some of their personal stories of shame. 

This conversation invites us to explore the complex layers of our own stories of shame, as well as how our shame intersects with other people's narratives of shame. As you consider the significant impact shame has on your relationships and your sense of self, we hope today's episode serves as an invitation for greater kindness, blessing, and hope.

"The fundamental question that anxiety poses [to] us is: What is our relationship to suffering?" notes this week's podcast guest, author, theologian, and fellow sufferer of chronic anxiety, Curtis Chang.

His new book, "The Anxiety Opportunity," offers a fresh perspective on anxiety as a doorway to spiritual transformation. He challenges the idea that anxiety is an enemy to be defeated – instead presenting it as a path towards personal growth and a deeper connection with Jesus. 

Curtis points out, "There's an invitation to redemption and that our best self found in Jesus is only found to the extent that we can go through our pain, including our pain of anxiety."

If you're ready to think differently about the relationship between anxiety and spiritual growth, we invite you to listen to today's conversation with Curtis Chang, then pick up your copy of "The Anxiety Opportunity: How Worry Is the Doorway to Your Best Self," out this week anywhere books are sold.

In this episode, we delve into the ancient practice of pilgrimage, a ritual journey that takes a person on a quest for new and deeper understanding of themselves, others, or a higher purpose. Unlike a typical trip or vacation, a pilgrimage has a deliberate and intentional start, a journey of transformation, and a meaningful return to daily life.

Brad and Rita Berglund, pilgrimage travel guides with Illuminated Journeys, share their story of how a life-altering event in their family led them on a transformative journey through pilgrimage. After their four-year-old son's devastating diagnosis in 1989, they discovered that all of life is a pilgrimage. Listen as they vulnerably share how pilgrimage helped them find meaning and redemption in the midst of their grief. Their experience inspired them to become guides, helping others on their journey of self-discovery and healing.

Discover the transformative power of pilgrimage and how to incorporate it into your daily life. Join us in this episode as we explore the potential of pilgrimage and how it can help you find new meaning and purpose in your life.