The Mission of the ABA and PT Podcast is to record and document the work and journeys of major contributors to ABA and Precision Teaching, and thereby stand for incorporating standard measurement and the use of the standard celeration chart into our work and lives. Our pledge is to honour those who have dedicated their life to this field such that my daughter and those that need it, benefit from science and all our field has discovered, that is at risk of getting lost. And the bottom line is that we all need it.
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Episode #16 – Try the Chart - Dr. Hank Pennypacker
Episode 39
Friday, June 9, 2023 • Duration 54:16
Dr. Hank Pennypacker, a pioneer in the Science of Human Behavior, shared profound insights about the standard celeration chart in amongst the many wisdoms he describtes in this podcast. Despite its limited adoption, he emphasized the immeasurable value of the chart to those wanting to make accurate predictions about behavior.
Dr. Pennypacker passionately advocates for the widespread use of precise measurement to fields involving human behavior and why percent correct lacks the arguably greatest contribution of B.F. Skinner's, being Rate of Response, and Hank's contribution of celeration as a measure to predict future performance.
He also talks about his contributions to identification of early breast detection through this program, Mammacare.
Join us as we delve into the Hank's 6 decade career in Behavior Science and his discussions of the Standard Celeration chart in his advice to Try the Chart!
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41:05 "The power of the measurement system lies in the recognition of the fact that the frequency is the correct measure of behavior." - Dr. Hank Pennypacker
49:26 “It's not easy. I don't pretend otherwise but that doesn't make it invaluable.” - Hank Pennypacker
49:51 “If you're in any kind of activity in which you have to anticipate what's going to happen, and what's going to happen is behavior, you're better off if you're using a device which allows you to make accurate predictions.” - Dr. Hank Pennypacker
Episode #15 - The Carolyne Letters with Dr. Abigail Calkin
Episode 38
Thursday, October 27, 2022 • Duration 02:06:14
In this episode, we take a quick side step from ABA to talk about one of the most hotly debated issues in the US right now and one that Precision Teacher Abigail Calkin writes about in her book, The Carolyne Letters; A Story of Birth, Abortion, and Adoption .
In this episode, Abigail poses questions and talks about the complexities of pregnancy and parenthood and the impact those complexities have on family units.
Abigail Calkin, a published author and a precision teacher, will shed some light on the choices each woman faces when she becomes pregnant. In her book, Abigail explores the three choices a young mother,Amelia, faced.
The book is divided into three sections, and in each section, Amelia, the young mother in the narrative, writes letters to the three Carolynes in the story explaining her choices.
Abigail also discusses how she used the celeration chart while she was pregnant to count fetal movements, and a whole lot more!
I hope you enjoy this wonderful author talking about The Carolyne Letters.
Elizabeth Haughton is a highly recognized educational consultant, the Founder of the Haughton Learning Center, and recipient of both the ‘Lifetime Achievement Award’ and the ‘Our Teacher Award’ from the Standard Celeration Society.
Elizabeth spent roughly 5 decades of her life helping children using her research-based methods to improve teaching and learning strategies.
It’s a privilege to have Elizabeth back on the show to talk more about her insightful discoveries and learning methods. In this episode, we’ll dive into understanding what pinpointing is and how essential it is in precision teaching as she talks about how she used this method to clearly describe students’ behaviors and developed practice plans to help them.
Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:
Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425
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Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498
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HIGHLIGHTS
1:53 Understanding what pinpointing is.
11:26 Important parts or elements to describe what you are observing and recording.
RESOURCES
QUOTES
#5 Elizabeth Haughton - Heart + Science
Episode 28
Wednesday, January 12, 2022 • Duration 01:46:01
Elizabeth Haughton is a highly recognized educational consultant, the Founder of the Haughton Learning Center, and recipient of both the ‘Lifetime Achievement Award’ and the ‘Our Teacher Award’ from the Standard Celeration Society.
She has been a precision teacher for more than 50 years and joins us today to talk about her combination of heart and science within her teaching model.
She explains how she incorporated precision teaching with her students in a classroom setting and what led her to open her own learning center.
Filled with joy, passion, and excitement it’s a pleasure talking to Elizabeth about all things precision teaching and how she’s transformed childrens' lives through the use of charting.
Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:
Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425
Check out the podcast on your favorite platform!
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498
Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast
HIGHLIGHTS
#4 So Many Lessons, So Little Time
Episode 27
Wednesday, December 8, 2021 • Duration 01:44:13
Dr. John Eshleman has dedicated his life to making our science successful for all. Standing in Ogden Lindsley's wish for the use of plain English in Precision Teaching, he has the ability to express complex scientific phenomena in understandable language.
John joins us in this episode to discuss a variety of topics from the richness of SAFMEDS to his explanation of Ogden's “Common Language for Analyzing Behavior”. He shares his views on how our rich underpinnings have been watered down in a rush to train behavior technicians in order to make the demands for frontline staff for the autism field. He also questions the reason behind the initiative to limit the BACB certifications to North America.
HIGHLIGHTS
04:41 Who were John's early influences that led him to pursue a career in Psychology and Precision Teaching?
13:42 John on his career after graduate school, including his projects with Aubrey Daniels & Associates
23:34 On the benefits of using manual flashcards
26:18 What were some of the applications that John has used SAFMEDS for?
31:18 John describes Steve Graf's dissertation topic on word responses
41:01 On the use of plain English in Precision Teaching
58:06 On the current state of ABA
1:17:07 On the current state and future hope for Precision Teaching
1:29:18 Helpful resources for students pursuing Precision Teaching and charting
In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Kimberly Nix Berens; a scientist-educator and Founder of Fit Learning. As she shares her story of how she found her way through Behavior Science and Precision Teaching, Dr. Kim also provides tons of anecdotes from her learning experiences with mentors, the development of Precision Teaching, and her personal encounter with Ogden Lindsley. She speaks of her vision for automation of data to allow the collection of data in classrooms, the challenges faced in Behavior Analysis, and her hopes for the upcoming students in the field.
Dr. Kim has recently published her first book, Blind Spots: Why students fail and the science that can save them.
HIGHLIGHTS
02:29 Dr. Kim's early childhood and upbringing
11:03 Her mentorship with Maria Ruiz at Rollins College
20:13 Her mentorship with Elbert "Ed" Blakely at Threshold Inc.
33:20 Ogden Lindsley and his views on today's Behavior Analysis
50:11 Automation of data: Dr. Kim's vision for the future of Precision Teaching
53:33 Dr. Kim shares her encounter with Ogden Lindsley
1:00:13 Pragmatism & Science: An advice to Behavior Analysts
1:03:27 Dr. Kim's take on the traditional education & professionalization in ABA
#2 Dr Abigail Calkin - An Extraordinary Life - Part 2
Episode 25
Wednesday, November 10, 2021 • Duration 02:00:54
In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Abigail B. Calkin as she continues to share her extraordinary journey through Behavior Analysis and Precision Teaching, especially on her move to Kansas to earn a Ph.D. under the supervision of Ogden Lindsley.
She also taps into some interesting parts of her life where she developed the one-minute timing method in order to change her behavior and relationships, how she learned Russian using SAFMEDS, and how charting has helped her find out and minimize her epileptic episodes. She then talks about AimStar Lite, a project that aims to make charting much easier and faster for users of the standard celeration chart.
HIGHLIGHTS
03:16 Abigail's very close friendship with Diana Dean led her to get a Ph.D. in Kansas under Ogden Lindsley's guidance
21:36 Abigail describes some of their family projects which include counting their behavior, and talks about exposing her 5-year-old son to Precision Teaching
26:15 Her views on Errorless Learning and how she learned Russian using SAFMEDS
34:27 Precision Teaching and the classes she took at Kansas University
41:03 How Abigail practiced the 'one-minute timing' technique to change her behavior and relationships
57:57 How her supervision and mentorship with Ogden looked like and her thoughts on how the Behavior Bank was contributed to Behavior Analysis
1:13:54 Abigail's life and career after completing her Ph.D. and on learning about her epilepsy
1:19:08 What charting has shown her to minimize the effects of epilepsy
1:42:00 Abigail remains hopeful on the use of Standard Celeration Chart not just within Behavior Analysis but also in other fields of work
1:47:40 Introducing the AimStar Lite— a project in which Abigail is involved in
RESOURCES
You can learn more about Abigail on her website:
#1 Dr Abigail Calkin - An Extraordinary Life
Episode 24
Wednesday, October 27, 2021 • Duration 01:39:36
This episode is part one of a two-part series featuring Dr. Abigail B. Calkin; a teacher, writer, and poet who has combined Precision Teaching and inner behavior in her work with adults and children.
Abigail takes us back to her extraordinary journey through psychology and teaching, then to Behavior Analysis and Precision Teaching. From her early life to her schooling experiences, she cites the significant events that lead her on a bold, courageous, and extraordinary life. In part 1, she recounts her journey to get to Kansas to study under Dr. Ogden Lindsley.
HIGHLIGHTS
06:08 Abigail’s family has a major influence on her ability to embrace challenges
12:45 Her early schooling experience that shaped her decision to go into Psychology and Philosophy
23:23 Abigail as a school counselor for children with learning disabilities and behavioral disorders
31:26 In pursuit of a Master's Degree in Philosophy
45:56 Her introduction to Precision Teaching
1:09:30 How she had taken Precision Teaching into her teaching career
1:19:07 When did she first read on B.F Skinner’s Verbal Behavior?
34:38 "But I realized, when I have about 3-4 months left, Philosophy is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end. And what am I doing in Philosophy? I don't want to teach Philosophy. So I left the University of Edinburgh and I moved to Oregon on a whim."
#0 Standing on the Shoulders of Giants
Episode 23
Wednesday, October 27, 2021 • Duration 02:46
In this bridging episode of The ABA & PT podcast (formerly known as The ABA & OT podcast), Mandy explains the podcast relaunch with the new direction— which is now centered around the journeys and discoveries of the giants in the field of Precision Teaching & ABA.
RESOURCES
Join The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:
The ABA & OT Podcast #22 Speech and the Standard Celeration Chart
Episode 22
Thursday, August 19, 2021 • Duration 51:22
Time constraints are making it difficult for behavioral therapists to analyze the data they’ve collected. Bethan's goal is to bring charting to people in order to help them produce an efficient and measurable output.
Bethan Mair Williams has worked as a Speech and Language Therapist in the British public health sector for over 20 years. She has an amazing organization called the British Royal College Clinical Excellence Network for Speech Therapists. In today's episode, Bethan shares a very unique perspective on the ABA and Speech world, especially using Precision Teaching.
HIGHLIGHTS
00:35 Intro to Bethan Mair Williams
06:15 Teaching the methods of charting to classroom assistants: An efficient way in giving kids targeted measurable intervention
10:04 Benefits of charting for Speech & Language Therapists
18:07 How Bethan motivates teachers and Speech & Language Pathologists to do charting
25:14 The profound effects of charting to students
37:34 On the dark side of data collection
44:02 Is there still room for qualitative data?
GLOSSARY
SAFMEDS (Say All Fast Minute Every Day Shuffled) - An assessment procedure that is useful for vocabulary acquisition
RESOURCES
Join our The ABA and OT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources:
49:17 “It's interesting to me to have lived in the times of illegal abortion, legal abortion, and now we're moving into illegal abortion. And frankly, I don't think that's going to work.”
55:09 “The issue is not pregnancy. The issue is [that] society is changing, and it's changing dramatically.”
58:14 “We're only one race, it is the human race.”
59:15 “Our whole worldwide culture is changing.”
59:56 “Choice is there, and you can choose to have a child—keep the child and give the child up for adoption, or have an abortion.”
1:00:00 “If abortion is illegal, there is no choice. There's only one option. And you have to go with that option. And to me, that's not what a democracy or Republicans are about.”
14:00 An example of what a learning statement might be.
26:45 Examples and non-examples of pinpoints
33:57 How Elizabeth establishes a practice plan for a kid.
40:05 How to use countoons to describe a behavior.
56:40 How they discovered the Learning Channels using the Performance Matrix by Eric Haughton.
58:32 Combining channels to practice and find out more effective ways.
1:00 Kid’s struggle with the Think channel and strategies to overcome them.
Check out Eric Haughton’s Performance Matrix / Planning Matrix: http://binde1.verio.com/wb_fluency.org/Unpublished/Haughton1980b.pdf
16:28 “Studying channels is a lot for some people, it confuses them but I think if they understand that there's about seven intake channels, and there's hundreds of outputs but those two things are important for the pinpoint.”
23:59 “Do it yourself. Do it with a student if you're working with a complicated student.”
32:34 “No matter how much I pinpointed, the key to Terry Harris's success, besides us knowing the chart and the pinpoints and the things in precision teaching is practice.”
52:04 “Being as clear as we can about that movement cycle or the skills description and then multi-channeling it, rather than get uptight, people need to have fun with it.”
1:04:00 “A scientist is exploring all the time. We all need to be scientists and explore and use our observations to see what's there. I mean, we know so much he but we still have so much to learn.”
02:54 Elizabeth’s work as an educator and the different children she works with.
05:18 The impact Elizabeth’s mother had on her and how she found her passion for teaching people with additional needs.
11:05 What it was like growing up on a cattle ranch in California with 5 other siblings.
14:41 How different games can help children with their learning.
16:51 How Elizabeth started her teaching career and why she focused on children who had problems with retention.
20:23 What Elizabeth learned from her first experience of precision teaching.
25:25 The history of ‘The Standard Celeration Chart’ and how Elizabeth knew she wanted to be a precision teacher.
28:49 How the classroom can be arranged to help children chart and what Elizabeth does to make charting easier for the kids.
33:55 What you can learn from the consistent charting of data about how a child’s day-to-day affects their performance.
35:27 ‘The happy learner model’ and the benefit of direct instruction in your teaching plan.
37:54 How Elizabeth enrolled other teachers into the precision teaching method.
40:45 How working with Terry Harris taught Elizabeth about gross motor and fine motor coordination.
44:01 The people who influenced and taught Elizabeth and how she became so knowledgeable in precision teaching.
47:18 Why Elizabeth moved to Canada and what the classes were like for children with additional needs there.
50:10 How Elizabeth decided what to teach the children in her classes and why she doesn’t always stick to a standard curriculum.
56:30 What made Elizabeth start her own private learning center and what it was like running an intensive program.
1:02:15 Elizabeth’s current work in program creation, teaching, and coaching.
1:05:05 Different coaches people can reach out to to learn about precision teaching.
1:09:40 The different writing manuals and materials that Elizabeth has published.
1:12:55 The charting Elizabeth does on her own data and how this has helped her.
1:23:20 The need for parents to be involved in the education of their children and the future of behavioral science and precision teaching.
1:32:11 Why most schools don’t incorporate precision teaching in their curriculum.
1:34:50 Where Elizabeth got the idea for hearts on charts, and why she always starts with the heart.
1:41:43 The importance of gratitude.
RESOURCES
Learn more about the Haughton Learning Center on Elizabeth’s website: https://haughtonlearningcenter.com/
Check out The Story Book (memory game): https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/294601273632?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=294601273632&targetid=1279751774829&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9112673&poi=&campaignid=9772799667&mkgroupid=123973272138&rlsatarget=pla-1279751774829&abcId=578876&merchantid=7364522&gclid=Cj0KCQiAieWOBhCYARIsANcOw0zDtzJER65LjzYpAHIKLORmWrlwKD9Y3fkUiCTL5AYk6SHebNALfvQaAgQrEALw_wcB
Find out more about Blink - the world’s fastest card game: https://www.amazon.com.au/Reinhards-Staupes-Blink-Worlds-Fastest/dp/B0037W5Y2W/ref=sr_1_1?crid=24KCEZJW88BYJ&keywords=blink+game&qid=1641695101&sprefix=blink+game%2Caps%2C384&sr=8-1
Find the game Spot It: https://www.amazon.com/Asmod%C2%A8%C2%A6e-Spot-It-Classic-Eco-Blister/dp/B08CMRPCKL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1S9H6FUUC6N3F&keywords=spot+it&qid=1641695144&sprefix=spot+i%2Caps%2C433&sr=8-1
Get Connect 4: https://www.amazon.com/Connect-Strategy-Board-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B06XY881H4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1V9IFDVNSHYMG&keywords=connect+4&qid=1641695183&sprefix=connec%2Caps%2C527&sr=8-3
Learn more about the bead counters Eileen Standing Bear makes through Mohawk Leathers: http://www.mohawkleathers.com/
Find more about Morningside Academy
Learn more about The Standard Celeration Chart
QUOTES
04:53 Elizabeth “I’m amazed that we’re really able to make a difference in the lives of so many youngsters.”
12:55 Elizabeth “To me if you’re going to be into precision teaching and the measurement of learning be part of a team. It’s so important to be a learner, to be part of the team.”
44:38 Elizabeth “Build their strengths and their needs, but don’t ever forget what can they do and get it going.”
53:05 Elizabeth “The students, they can all learn. That’s all I know, I haven’t met anyone who can’t learn but I have to go where they are and I have to bring up their strengths. It takes figuring out but sometimes you have to unlearn your own head and watch what they’re doing instead of what you think the curriculum is.”
1:21:14 Elizabeth “Helping other people and being part of something that really does change lives in a positive way, keeps your spirit young, keeps your energy.”
1:33:59 Elizabeth “Those little guys want to read, I saw it when I taught. They want to do it, they want to write their numbers, they want to do their maths facts, they want to learn. So how can we give it to them will always be something I spend my whole life how to make it better.”
30:09 John: "Here's one of the things about instructional design— that's part of my philosophy at least— is that why make personal learning on something if they already know it? I'm always an advocate of 'if somebody knows something, can they test it out?' That way they don't have to waste their time or your time going through a learning program about something they already know."
45:48 John: "Lindsley's whole idea with COLAB was to use as much plain English as possible, presented accelerating consequence. There's nothing technical about that, right? It's presented, it's not taken away. It's accelerated, not decelerated because you have presented decelerating consequence too, as opposed to a punisher."
52:04 John: "Precision Teaching itself, as a term, is a euphemism. Euphemism is a better-sounding word that has less baggage or less controversy."
1:13:58 John: "To the extent that Precision Teaching can maintain some independence, it always was somewhat independent of ABA because they both come from different lineages and they only partially overlap. Precision Teaching is about a lot of positive things. I mean, we're teaching. So we call our client 'learners'."
1:19:09 John: "As long as we respect what the background is of Precision Teaching, what its main purpose was, using the actual chart and not being dogmatic about any of this. Being willing to graph things other ways too— that's the least dogmatic it can be."
13:05 "The second she opened her mouth and introduced us to the behavioral view, I couldn't believe that there was actually a field of science as precise as biology, but with the power to effectively change human behavior in a way that improves the quality of life for all people on the planet."
25:14 "Skinner himself stopped measuring rate when he started moving into looking at academic skills. And the problem is because of the influence on how education does stuff. It's behavior analyst trying to fit our model into an education framework. Somehow, when you think about teaching kids stuff, all of a sudden education becomes the dominant way of thinking about how to do it rather than accelerating behavior is no different than decelerating behavior and it requires the same science."
32:38 "One of the applied areas that aren't stuck is people who do Precision Teaching. The discoveries that we make every single day at Fit Learning are profound and unfortunately, that's not happening in a lot of other areas of Applied Behavior Analysis because no one's using science number one, and no one's using a language of science that allows people to share discoveries in a powerful way so that they can propel the field forward."
1:01:48 "Science gives you the ability to not be dogmatic and self-righteous. Science is inherently humble, skeptical, and never satisfied."
31:18 "Did I worry about whether I made an error? No. When I do a reading of something I've written (...) you know, it's nice to be able to read absolutely fluently and never make a mistake but that's not me. And so I gloss over and I cover it up, I go back, something like that. I figure in learning, you make mistakes. A mistake is an opportunity to learn how to do something better."
38:15 "You have to have standardization on measurement. Blood pressure is standardized. Carbon dating is standardized. All of these things that my father would bring home as ideas and talk about, they're standardized. And so why not standardize the measurement of learning?"
44:02 "I started doing a one-minute timing and in 2 weeks, I had flipped it around. I was counting all day; positive feelings, negative feelings, positive thoughts, negative thoughts, missed opportunities for both... and that made the difference. It took the negative, unpleasant thoughts and feelings down, and it boosted the positive ones."
1:11:36 "I had literally put together an entire bibliography of all professional articles and materials that were for multi-handicapped students— preschoolers which included infants and anybody up to about age 3, maybe 4, and all kinds of disabilities."
1:18:22 "The way ideas develop, they don't develop rapidly. You can't do a one-minute timing and teach your kid the way you can do it and teach a kid to read 2 years in one year using a one-minute timing a day. It doesn't work for thinking. It doesn't work for thought development."
1:35:33 "One of the things is having lived with epilepsy for 72 or 73 years… Now that I have a diagnosis, I am absolutely determined to be public about it because it's like autism— a learning disability. When we first found out about learning disabilities and emotional problems, we kind of put it off to the side. So we do these things (...) and I'm determined not to be private of that."
14:20 "One of the really useful ways to use a chart is to measure the use of augmentative or alternative communication."
18:53 "You can't just give someone a book or a manual. The most important advice I have ever given when I trained as a speech and language therapist was, do not give the average person anything longer than a piece of paper one side because they will not read it."
27:50 "It is the biggest thrill ever to see that look in a kid's eyes when they're not relying on the adult to tell them all the time what it is to do, they are truly thinking for themselves."
32:45 "Our goal to show people how to measure, how to do it efficiently, and how to make sure that they get their work done as fast as possible so that kids, in particular, can be kids, get outside, play, do lots of fun stuff, and not sit trapped at tables for hours on end."
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