Sustain What? is a series of conversations, seeking solutions where complexity and consequence collide on the sustainability frontier.
Revkin believes sustainability has no meaning on its own. The first step toward success is to ask: Sustain what? How? And for whom?
How do You Stay Sane in Such Turbulent Times? For Me, One Path is Still Music
Sunday, November 3, 2024 โข Duration 02:15
Take a mental break and do tell me how you stay sane and centered given the turbulence of this political and societal moment and the tough path ahead?
For me - along with our dogs, cooking, carpentry, hikes and the like - thereโs always music. (Read my post explainng that side of my life if you havenโt already.)
This new song of mine, โAfter the Roaming,โ was inspired by a melody composed by fellow student Kathy O'Rourke during our current songwriting workshop at Bagaduce Music in Blue Hill, Maine. (We were each tasked by the teacher, George Emlen, to create a couple of simple melodies and then were asked the following week to write lyrics to a melody other than our own.)
The lyrics are below.
Lifeโs a very fine line right now
Iโm planning to pull together this tune and a batch of my recent original songs into my first album since my debut recording in 2013, โA Very Fine Line.โ That tune, I realize, is also highly relevant given that one line is as follows:
Itโs a very fine line between loony and sane.A very fine line between a loss and a gain.A very fine line between pleasure and pain.Most of your life you spend walking a very fine line.People you think are a genius are this far from bent.President blows an election by half a percent.We all know love hurts but we try it again and again.We know that the line between love and despair is so thin.
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Hereโs โAfter the Roaming.โ Snag an audio download at Revkin.Bandcamp.com or share the video version on YouTube below.
After the Roaming
ยฉ 2024, Andrew Revkin
Iโve fished the ocean, and Iโve plowed the ground.
Iโve toppled timber and rambled around.
But in all my roaming, two things I canโt find:
A loving companion and true peace of mind.
A loving companion and true peace of mind.
When a lad leaves his home to go out on his own
His work and his friends are his life.
But the job and the beer in the end bring no cheer
Compared to the arms of a wife.
So Iโll sell my boat, drop the plow and the axe.
Iโll woo a sweet woman and finally relax.
After all of that roaming, two things will be mine:
A loving companion and true piece of mind.
A loving companion and true piece of mind.
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Live from Trump's Hate-Filled Madison Square Garden Rally
Monday, October 28, 2024 โข Duration 19:37
UPDATED 10/28 9 am - As Iโve written before, no real progress on the issues I explore here on Sustain What is possible without sustaining democracy and moving past racism and hate, so I had to cover tonightโs hate-filled Trump โrally.โ
As Donald Trumpโs Madison Square Garden event was getting into gear on Sunday afternoon, I reached out to Marshall Curry, an Academy-Award winning film director.
I was hoping to interview him because in 2017 he made a stunning seven-minute documentary called โA Night at the Gardenโ built with rediscovered film footage of the February 1939 rally at the venue organized by the German American Bund, a pro-Hitler organization that was inflaming passions here in the years before the United States entered World War II.
It turned out Curry was in line outside the Garden amid thousands of MAGA-hatted Trump fans.
Curry was there shooting a documentary following the work of a major magazine that had two journalists in the hall (details canโt be released yet). Once he was in the building, in between hate-filled speeches from the podium, we were able to connect by phone. Iโve posted the conversation above and you can also watch and share it on Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn and X/Twitter.
I got to know Curry starting in 2011, when I wrote for The New York Times about his โbrutally neutralโ film (my description) centered on the life of an Earth Liberation Front arsonist environmentalist and the federal prosecutor who pursued the group for years.
In our conversation Curry stresses that he doesnโt see Trump as a Nazi, but did find the level of vitriol in the hall deeply chilling - and at a level far beyond what heโs seen in even the most passionately anti-Trump Democrats.
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Testing the "Unsettled" Climate-Science Assertions of Steve Koonin
Tuesday, June 11, 2024 โข Duration 01:16:19
I hope youโll watch and weigh in on this Sustain What episode testing the arguments against climate alarm of Steven Koonin, a former chief scientist at BP and former Obama-era Energy Department science undersecretary who is the author of the best-selling book Unsettled โ What Climate Science Tells Us, What it Doesnโt, and Why it Matters. An updated edition was eleased on June 11th.
Koonin, whoโs joining the Hoover Institution this fall as a senior fellow, has a new op-ed out in the Wall Street Journal titled โThe โClimate Crisisโ Fades Out.โ He warns that overreach based on overheated interpretations of climate science is already causing societal pushback.
We agreed on many points but I proposed that his emphasis on โunsettled/settledโ as the threshold for shaping decisions can leave societies racing to pursue solutions too late because climate change is more like a one-way ratchet than a knob that can be turned back.
We were joined by Roger Pielke Jr., a longtime climate policy analyst youโve seen here before. Read Pielkeโs critique of Kooninโs book (which largely tracks my views):
Pielke also debated Koonin last year on the question, โIs Net Zero by 2050 Possible?โ We revisited this criticism of the book taken from that debate:
Kooninโs book, which was first published in 2021 and has, according to the publisher, sold some 200,000 copies, grew out of arguments he made in an opinion piece he wrote for The Wall Street Journal in 2014. I reached out to him at that time with a couple of questions and posted them and his answers on my Dot Earth blog. Click to my announcement of this webcast for that piece, which laid the foundation for todays discussion:
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A Potent Film, Checkpoint Zoo, Provides an Animal's Eye-View of an Inhuman Invasion
Thursday, June 6, 2024 โข Duration 33:08
War is hell. No headline there.
But imagine war expierenced through the eyes and ears of lions, chimpanzees, camels and other creatures in a wildlife park in northeastern Ukraine, and experienced by their keepers and a ragtag crew of volunteers who rushed to evacuate them as Vladimir Putinโs full-scale invasion played out in 2022.
That is what youโll experience when the documentary โCheckpoint Zooโ gets into theaters or streaming sites after its premiere at the Tribeca Festival. I hope the film gets wide distribution.
โCheckpoint Zooโ tells the story of Feldman Ecopark, a sprawling zoo and wildlife sanctuary on the outskirts of Ukraineโs second biggest city, Karkhiv, just 30 miles from the Russian border. The facility was created in 2011 by Oleksandr Feldman, one of Ukraineโs richest businessmen. A philanthropist focused on social issues, Feldman made the zoo a hub for therapy for children with disabilities and rehabilitation for drug addicts. If you scan pre-war social media, itโs all heartwarming scenes.
Then came the full-scale invasion on February 22, 2022. Five weeks in, Feldman posted an online plea for help as his staff and a passionate batch of volunteers raced to relocate the animals even as Russian attacks blasted buildings and rockets fell. Hereโs Facebook video from the park in early April that year showing a shell next to animal enclosures.
Ultimately six people were killed in the animal evacuation efforts, including a 15-year-old boy, according to the film and other news reports. The park has since reopened but of course faces new threats as Russia has renewed its offensive around Karkhiv.
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Meet a Top Guide to Hurricanes and Climate Change as a Hot Atlantic Storm Season Begins
Saturday, June 1, 2024 โข Duration 41:54
June 1 is the official start of hurricane season in the Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. To stay safe along coasts or in floodable inland areas as the season heats up, you should of course bookmark NOAAโs National Hurricane Center tracking and warning site. Donโt get too used to the storm-free image on the site at the moment:
To stay sane as the media environment around hurricanes and climate change heats up, you should bookmark NOAAโs Global Warming and Hurricanes page, curated for many years by senior scientist Tom Knutson.
Knutson is one of the most level-headed and objective scientists I know in a research arena full of competitive groups, data gaps and intense debates. Itโs also an arena being flooded with money as the insurance industry and businesses needing to demonstrate or measure environmental responsibility (e.g. S&P Global) hire climate scientists and invest in modeling.
Iโve been interviewing and citing Knutson for more than 20 years and thought this week was a good time to catch up with him to go over whatโs well established about the influence of warming from rising carbon dioxide concentrations on tropical storm behavior and what remains obscured by natural variability and the rarity of the biggest storms. Watch or listen above or on the audio podcast or watch and share our chat on YouTube, Facebook or LinkedIn.
We talk about the โCategory 6โ question, the continued disagreement among researchers over the relative influences on Atlantic tropical storms of hazy air pollution and slowly shifting ocean currents and more.
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Moving from "Waste Not" Aphorisms to Action - One Town and Product at a Time
Tuesday, April 9, 2024 โข Duration 48:31
I just had a solutions-focused waste-cutting Sustain What chat with two marvelous guides - Edward Humes, the Pulitzer-winning author ofTotal Garbage - How We Can Fix Our Waste and Heal Our World(following up on his 2012 book Garbology - Our Dirty Love Affair with Trash); and Sarah K. Nichols, whoโs driven some of the most significant innovations in state policy around waste reduction and now works for an innovative beverage container recycling company called Clynk. Thereโs more about Clynk below.
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Nichols, whoโs featured in Humesโ book, was a prime force shaping the successful 2021 effort to expand Maineโs โExtended Producer Responsibilityโ (EPR) laws to cover packaging - making it the first state in the nation to do so, shifting the financial burden for recycling to corporations from local communities.
As the trade publication Packaging World has reported, the final regulations are emerging this year and are sorely needed, given the straining recycling budgets of many Maine municipalities (including our budget-strapped town):
Many Maine communities have suspended or cut back their recycling programs because of limited options and rising costs for managing these materials, sending them to landfills instead. With landfills throughout the state nearing capacity, this temporary solution creates another expensive problem: expanding existing landfills.
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One Path to Traction for People Paralyzed by the Climate "Scale Monster"
I was intrigued to learn about an upcoming set of live seminars offering ways to stay cool, connected and effective amid the nonstop turbulence around and within our fossil-fuel-heated climate system. The workshop, called โEmbracing our Emergency,โ is being led later this spring by the progressive Emmy-winning filmmaker Josh Fox, best known for his HBO documentary โGasland,โ and the wide-ranging author and convener Daniel Pinchbeck.
As Fox and Pinchbeck explain in our chat, theyโre convening an array of guests, from Bill McKibben to Jane Fonda and Xiye Bastida, to help build a community that can better understand and navigate todayโs polycrisis. There are 10 live sessions between April 28 and May 29. You can learn more and register here. Thereโs a fee but they say there are discounts if needed.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Amazon Career Track? Confessed Assassin, 1990, Rising Local Right-Wing Leader 2024
Saturday, March 9, 2024 โข Duration 52:42
๐บ ๐ง This is the podcast episode for the post below on a consequential scoop by a Brazilian environmental journalist revealing how the confessed murderer of an environmental hero in the western corner of the Amazon River basin 35 years ago quietly rose to regional influence under a religious nickname 1,500 miles to the east. My guests are:
Why should anyone outside of the region pay attention to the reemergence of Darci Alves Pereira as โPastor Danielโ in Medicilรขndia, a remote Amazonian town of only 30,000 people? This incident is a tiny window on a big and worrisome reality in Brazil.
Thereโs been enormous progress stanching fires and forest clearing since the election of Luiz Inรกcio โLulaโ da Silva, but the rural right-wing and evangelical movements supporting former Presiden Jair Bolsonaro still have substantial power and Lulaโs victory was by a very thin margin. And Bolsonaro and allies face an ongoing investigation of allegations of a coup attempt.
So please listen, subscribe if you donโt already and share this post with others.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
Hannah Ritchie Bravely Offers Up Data Amid a Maelstrom of Climate and Sustainability Assertions
Monday, March 4, 2024 โข Duration 59:50
I hope you'll watch, share and weigh in on this invaluable Sustain What conversation I just had with Hannah Ritchie , the lead researcher at Our World in Data and author of the Not the End of the World, an invaluable book offering a data-based foundation for discussion and action on the full span of sustainability challenges and choices, from stemming warming to spurring human advancement where the need is deepest.
Sheโs getting an enormous amount of justified attention, including a TED Talk and a podcast session with Bill Gates (who also is a big financial supporter of Our World in Data). Sheโs also caught between edge-pushing data distorters or disbelievers proclaiming either doom or scam. Itโs not a fun position to occupy.
I hope youโll subscribe to, or share, Ritchieโs fine Substack dispatchSustainability by numbers! Hereโs a particularly fine post:
In the second half of the chat, I asked Ritchie how she and the folks at Our World in Data deal with โqualitative dataโ - the meat and potatoes of social science (think of studies done by interviewing hundreds of people in a field or in a plight).
They donโt, really. I proposed that this body of science is easily as important to anyone trying to chart sustainable human pathways as the quantitative data and also proposed we plan a future webcast with scientists across disciplinary divides.
I mentioned a Sustain What webcast I did with two social scientists, Lisa Schipper and Dana Fisher, and a couple of journalists about this issue and hope youโll check it out when you have time. Hereโs a core moment with Schipper, a researcher long focused on societal factors that boost or reduce climate vulnerability.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit
How Imagery Can Spur Clean-Energy Progress
Sunday, February 25, 2024 โข Duration 42:03
Through most of my journalism career, I presumed that more information leads to better choices. As media moved online, I experimented ever more with conveying what I was reporting or learning using far more than the written word.
When I went to the North Pole in 2003, I brought back video that captured the unnerving dynamics and sounds of floating, drifting sea ice far better than words could. At climate negotiations in 2005 in Montreal, I tried out podcasting, recording the passionate voices of youth activists as a way to get beyond the gray-suited wonkiness of these sessions. I cobbled graphics on my Dot Earth blog and highlighted other brilliant work there and on my Sustain What webcast, like the carbon visualizations of Adam Nieman.
But what works?
From 2006 on I spent ever more time talking to behavioral scientists about paths from communicating environmental risk to susatainable societal change - and the answers were uniformly disquieting, ranging from โwe donโt knowโ downward to sobering realities like โcultural cognitionโ (our hunan habit of seeing the same data through divergent cultural filters).
Hereโs one such conversation, with Sabine Pahl of the University of Vienna. Pahl has focused for many years on whether and how visual information changes behavior related to environmental challenges and choices. Her work shows that visuals can matter. The results of one early study that caught my attention are here, showing that when infrared images revealing heat leaking from homes are included in flyers on weatherization, homeowners are more apt to invest in improvements.
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As he expalined:
I still donโt think Trump is a Nazi but I do think heโs a demagogue and I do think he uses a lot of these same tactics demagogues have used for thousands of years โ to kind of stir people up against each other and grab power in the process.
Please do listen and weigh in with your thoughts.
I watched the first hour or so of warmup acts and was appalled at several points, particularly by Rudolph W. Giulianiโs vile diatribe lumping all Palestinians - including the โgood peopleโ - in one unwelcome boat.
I hope that any voters in swing states whose prime concern is the future of Gaza and the Palestinian people drop any plans to skip voting for Kamala Harris.
In the meantime, Fox News had a very different impression of the โhistoric rally.โ
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The film, directed by Joshua Zeman, skilfully weaves video from a trove recorded on the run by zoo staff and powerful interviews and imagery filmed by Zeman and his crew in three trips to the region in late 2022 and 2023 - during which explosions can occasionally be heard and, in one case, filmmakers and other journalists scramble for cover along with their subjects.
The result is an extraordinary portrait of the jarring mix of humanity and inhumanity created in wartime. There is heroism, wrenching loss, boundless love and a key component of any film - transformation. In this case, one of the young volunteers, a veterinarian, goes into military service as a medic.
The presence of non-human animals, as both victims and witnesses to the best and worst our species has to offer, further intensifies the experience and the leaves the viewer full of tough and essential questions.
I hope youโll take time to watch or listen to my Sustain What conversation with Zeman. (Hereโs the super rough Trint transcript.) I got to know know and respect his work through his previous documentary, โThe Loneliest Whale.โ That 2021 film was inspired by a short news story I wrote for The New York Times back in 2004 about the mystery of an elusive great whale in the vastness of the Pacific Ocean calling out at a frequency distinct from that of any known species.
When thereโs a trailer or clip from โCheckpoint Zooโ online Iโll add it here, but in the meantime have a look at this video posted by the folks at Feldman Ecopark:
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Thereโs a super-rough Trint transcript here (they tend to be better than the one that Substack generates, at least for now). If more subscribers find it possible to chip in financially, I can get these cleaned up (and make lots of other improvements).
You may also want to click back to an evergreen interview I did around the 30th anniversary of Hurricane Andrewโs devastating hit on South Florida with the University of Miami hurricane scientist Brian McNoldy - whose Tropical Atlantic Update blog and @BMcNoldy X/Twitter feed are invaluable.
In our conversation, Nichols explained that corporations arenโt always the enemy, pointing to the leadership of one of Maineโs largest craft beer producers, Allagash Brewing Company. Read Allagashโs page extolling the virtues of EPR.
Every town needs a change-making โMargeโ
I love how this section of Humesโ book on Nichols echoes what Jigar Shah, who leads the Biden administrationโs loan program for clean energy, has called for - an army of local doers and changemakers willing to put in time to be sure their communities can access billions in federal assets:
Nichols worked on this for eight years, explaining that her idea wasn't a tax on businesses, as they would surely claim, but a long-overdue bill for picking up after their mess. She made her pitch, with plenty of data to back it up, at town council after town council, business by business, and during an endless number of rubber-chicken lunches and dinners with volunteer groups and civic organizations. Nichols's environmental organization is respected but small, so she recruited a statewide army of community volunteers to build support and spread the word about her recycling makeover at the local level. She calls this force her "Marges"- named for her first volunteer in an earlier environmental campaign. She defines a Marge as someone who's already an environmental advocate, but who needs some help on how to take action effectively. The Marges have become a force to be reckoned with in Maine, Nichols's not-so-secret weapon.
Similar laws are in the works in many other states and Nicholsโ former employer, the Natural Resources Council of Maine, has a 10-tips sheet available for anyone elsewhere hoping to smooth the path to a more rational and effective system for reducing and recycling package.
Humes book is filled with remarkable examples of communities - with no red or blue divide - and companies finding ways to cut waste of all kinds - from trash to energy to greenhouse gas emissions. Here are a few examples from his website, edwardhumes.com:
A key focus, Fox says, is to encourage progressives to focus urgently on building resilience now for populations most at risk (a core theme of my writing here of course) even as they work to cut greenhouse gas emissions. Another, he says, is reinforcing the reality this is a marathon, not a sprint (echoing a core theme of my Dot Earth blog):
Activism in general is like being an attention deficit disorder marathon runner. You know, you constantly think the race is going to be over the next 20 seconds. And yet it's going to go on for your whole life. So you have to constantly be re re-energizing and re-engaging.
Pinchbeck posted about the project on his Substack newsletter and thereโs an excerpt below, along with a link to a free guide to โSeven Essential Tools For Surviving - and Thriving - in a Time of Climate Crisis.โ๐
Some of the resulting funds from the seminars will go to helping Fox finish his latest film, โThe Welcome Table,โ which explores the surging flows of human dislocation and migration being propelled by hot spots of political and climatic turmoil and profound imbalances in economic opportunity.
He began reporting and filming for this project six years ago and has built a vivid worldwide picture of the lives of dislocated populations around the world and within the United States. As he explains in our conversation, the film centers on a keystone idea - that building a bigger โwelcome tableโ is far more likely to foster thriving in the United States and elsewhere than building walls.
I reached Fox in New Orleans, where heโs preparing for the filmโs grand finale - chronicling the construction of a 1,000-foot-long table on a levee threatened by rising seas and a celebratory gathering around that welcome table featuring many of the people featured in the film. You can attend on April 10.
Migrant fear, circa 1903
We talked about the cyclic nature of immigration surges and reactionary surges of nationalism and hatred. He mentioned a century-old cartoon that he found for the film, โThe Unrestrictied Dumping-Ground,โ which depicts Uncle Sam overwhelmed by waves of ratlike Italian immigrants. Hereโs that excerpt from our discussion.
Fox said:
Can you imagine New York City without pizza? Can you imagine America without pizza, without bagels?
What is the pizza in 100 years going to be? We do know these people are going to be a benefit to us. Itโs our benefit to celebrate culture rather than ostracize and criminalize. And if we havenโt learned this lesson by now we donโt know what America is.
I couldnโt agree more.
From the great clips Iโve seen, the film is coming together in Foxโs inimitable and creative style, meshing music, events and other arts with gripping footage and his wry wit. Iโll do more on the film later this year. Hereโs the trailer:
One of the remarkable people in the film is the Nigeria-born singer songwriter Chris Obehi, who fled his hometown in the Niger delta in 2015 as a minor and made a harrowing journey to Palermo in Sicily including a kidnapping and imprisonment in Libya and - no surprise - a perilous Mediterranean crossing.
"I was crying you know. The boat was shaking and water was getting in. There were babies inside crying. We were 105 people." Again, Chris is not sure anymore which boat picked them up but he remembers the fear he felt: "It was night and this very big boat came towards us very slowly."
"I went close to the little boy, I touched him and he was so cold. I put him very close to me. I couldnโt just leave him alone." By taking responsibility for the infant, Chris got lifted off the ship as one of the first. In saving him, Chris was saved too. Many of the others on the boat ended up in the water.
His song Non Siamo Pesci (We are Not Fish) is simply wonderful.
Hereโs Daniel Pinchbeckโs theory behind the course (from his Substack post) and the companion guide to seven tools for thriving while embracing this moment:
I feel that many people remain inactive because they toggle between two extreme positions: One common belief is that we are utterly doomed and everyone will die soon as a result of the biospheric catastrophe, hence there is nothing we can do and we might as well go on with โbusiness as usualโ until the last second. The polar opposite belief, held by many, is that new technologies will somehow save the situation without us having to massively change our lifestyles or alter our consumption habits. (The most common strategy, by far, is to ignore the situation entirely, surrender to social inertia, and wait until change is forced upon you.)
Letโs consider another option: Temperatures will rise several degrees in the next decades leading to intensifying catastrophes. Even so, the world wonโt end all of a sudden. Most will survive. We will find ourselves trying to build decent lives and new communities in unfamiliar circumstances.
If we accept this as a plausible or perhaps even the most likely option, then it would be incredibly smart to start retooling, re-skilling, rethinking and even redirecting our lives, now, in resonance with the changes that are already happening and will increasingly intensify.
The seven tools and traits they describe are critical thinking, resilience, flexibility, simplicity, collaboration, openness, participation. Hereโs the download:
So please share and listen to this webcast and let me know your thoughts. And please subscribe to Sustain What, and chip in financially if you can so I can justify the time required to plan and run these conversations and digest them here!
Iโm also reminded of the work of the futurist and climate resilience guide Alex Steffen. When you have time, listen to our chat two years ago - and of course subscribe to his Snap Forward column:
Sick of โPredatory Delayโ on Climate? Snap Forward with Alex Steffen
Program note:On Tuesday, March 5th, at 2 p.m. ET, join me to explore whatโs known about climate activistsโ impacts on climate policy, from fossil-fueled backlash to the role of a โradical flankโ in building mainstream attention.
My guest is Dana Fisher, a movement-focused sociologist who directs the Center for Environment, Community, and Equity at American University and is the author, most recently, of Saving Ourselves โ From Climate Shocks to Climate Action.
I recorded this conversation a couple of years ago, but never aired it. Pahlโs insights and ideas remain as fresh as ever.
Please share this post with others. Iโve set it up to stream on the Sustain What webcast as well, so you can share it with friends or colleagues on Facebook or LinkedIn.
I also encourage you to click back to watch a Sustain What episode from one year ago on a Boston University project visualizing energy trends and dynamics for climate and sustainability impact. I spoke with Cutler Cleveland, project founder and director, and Heather Clifford, the chief data scientist. That show included James Henry, a representative from MyHEAT.ca, a Canadian firm using visual information to drive energy savings and solar adoption.
Itโs important not to be swept away by the coolness factor with communication innovation. But itโs also vital to keep pushing communication frontiers.
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Hereโs a parting shot from our my journey as a lecturer on a Lindblad/National Geographic cruise to Vanuatu and the Solomon Islands (see my recent post):
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