There's a not so polite saying about teaching music and music teachers that goes like this: If you can, play. If you can't, teach. That is what jazz legend Ellis Marsalis once said to a Detroit drummer who was considering becoming a music teacher. I'm talking about drummer, educator, producer and band leader Clarence Penn. Fortunately, Clarence did not take it to heart, eventually acquiring a master’s in music education from Rutgers University. It was also to the benefit of future musicians who became Clarence’s students.
In this episode, Clarence Penn and I engage in deep reflection on jazz and jazz music instruction. He started playing music with the drum set influenced by his drummer neighbor Ricky Hudson around eight years old. In 1986, while still in high school, he attended the Interlochen Arts Academy where Clarence focused on classical percussion aiming to be a timpanist, but later eventually committed to jazz in high school after meeting NEA Jazz Master, trumpeter, and Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra Music Director, Wynton Marsalis. He started studying at the University of Miami in Florida in 1986 but transferred to Virginia Commonwealth University which is when he began working with the great Ellis Marsalis.
The conversation navigates his brief stint with trumpet, his preference for jazz over classical due to its broader voice and creativity and reflects on the evolving definition of jazz. The discussion also delves into his teaching philosophy, emphasizing individualized attention, deliberate practice, and the importance of being a well-rounded person.
What Ellis Marsalis said about teaching, he later retracted when Clarence told him he was pursuing a master’s at Rutgers in music education. He said, according to Clarence, “…that those who can play, teach,” thus giving Clarence his blessing.
Clarence Penn also talks about various influences and collaborations, his views on the business of being a musician, and his expressive performance style. He mentions his project with the 2025 Grammy nominated American Patchwork Quartet, its diverse cultural influences, and explains his latest album 'Behind the Voice', which pays homage to drummers who have significantly impacted music.
His resume more so lays out his career as a jazz musician than a teacher of percussion instruments, performing with Ellis and Wynton Marsalis, Maria Schneider, Stanley Clark, Betty Carter, Christian Sands, Lakecia Benjamin, Dee Dee Bridgewater, and Kurt Elling, among many other highly accomplished musicians.
He concludes by discussing the importance of teaching as therapy and the rewarding relationships with students.
In this episode, we’ll listen to three tracks of music, thanks to Origin Records. Two will come from Clarence Penn’s latest project, Behind the Voice, released in 2024, more so a R&B/soul sound that has enormously brilliant drumming and keyboards by Clarence. The third track comes from his 2014 recording, Monk: The Lost Files, a highly acclaimed release that revisits some of the most memorable compositions by jazz legend Thelonious Monk.
You will hear the first song just prior to the conversation opening. 1. “Send One Your Love” (Steve Wonder)-Behind the Voice-3:15; Clarence Penn-drums, percussion, keyboards, vocoder; Aaron Marcellus-vocals; The second track will play at about 31 minutes into the program. 2. “Hackensack”: Monk: The Lost Files; Chad Lefkowitz-Brown - Saxes; Donald Vega-Piano; Yasushi Nakamura - Acoustic & Electric Bass; Clarence Penn - Drums, producer-arranger. The third song will close the conversation. 3. “You Are” (Clarence Penn, Tyrone Corbett), Behind the Voice -3:52; Clarence Penn—drums, percussion, keyboards, vocoder; Chelsea Jackson-vocals; Yasushi Nakamura-bass
Thank you for listening. I know there are many podcasts for you to enjoy so it means a great deal to me that you are spending time with this conversation.
