Episode Description:

In the premiere episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, host John Williamson shares the deeply personal story that became the catalyst for this investigative series—an account of sexual assault, institutional betrayal, and buried pain that would remain unacknowledged for decades.

As John began asking questions, a pattern emerged: a movement that began as a radical, Spirit-led network of churches evolved into something more recognizable—something hierarchical, brand-driven, and ultimately, deeply flawed.

We go back to the beginning: the roots of the Vineyard Movement, the vision and influence of John Wimber, the explosive success of Vineyard Worship, and how the pursuit of growth slowly began to eclipse the movement’s original values.

This episode sets the foundation for the rest of the series, as we begin to explore how empire building, lack of accountability, and systemic failures created conditions that harmed real people—and continue to do so.

🔊 Audio Credits:

This episode includes a brief excerpt from a sermon by John Wimber, used under fair use for educational and journalistic purposes.

🎧 Clip Source: John Wimber - “Going For It” on YouTube.

Special thanks to creators who preserve and share these historical archives.

🌐 Links & Resources

🖥️ Official Website:

www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

→ Visit for transcripts, research materials, episode guides, and more.

📱 Follow us on social media for updates, behind-the-scenes content, and breaking news:

• Instagram: @spoiledfruitpodcast

• Twitter/X: @spoiledfruitfm

• Facebook: Spoiled Fruit Podcast

🆘 If you or someone you know is a survivor of sexual or spiritual abuse:

You are not alone. Support is available.

📞 RAINN – National Sexual Assault Hotline

1-800-656-HOPE (4673)

www.rainn.org

→ Free, confidential, 24/7 support for survivors of sexual violence.

🙏 Support for spiritual abuse survivors:

The Spiritual Abuse Resources

→ Education, survivor stories, and recovery resources.

⭐️ If you found this episode impactful:

Please consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show. It helps others find the podcast and supports this work. And if you know someone who needs to hear this—share it.

Next Episode Tease:

In Episode 2, we begin our deep dive into Michael and Brenda Gatlin—their rise to power in the Vineyard Movement, the red flags along the way, and how they created the conditions for something devastating to unfold.

Hosted & Produced by:

John Williamson

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power is an independent investigative podcast.

Disclaimer:

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power is a work of investigative journalism. It includes allegations and opinions based on interviews, public documents, media reports, and other sources. All individuals mentioned are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

This podcast is not affiliated with Vineyard USA or any religious organization. Names, events, and quotes are used for reporting and documentary purposes under fair use and public interest protections. The creators of this series have taken care to verify information where possible and present commentary in a good-faith effort to inform the public.

Some episodes contain references to sexual abuse, spiritual trauma, and other sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

Welcome to Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power - a limited investigative podcast that explores the rise and reckoning of one of the most influential church movements of the last 50 years: the Vineyard.

This teaser sets the tone for what's to come - a deeper dive into the dangerous intersections of church, power, and empire building. Through firsthand accounts, leaked recordings, and careful investigation, we'll ask the hard questions many have been afraid to voice.

What happens when the Spirit-led becomes brand-driven? And what kind of fruit grows when empire becomes the goal?

Subscribe now and be ready when the first episode drops!

Credits: Archival audo exerpted from a sermon by John Wimber, used under fair use for educational and commentary purposes. Original source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUG8r66OjVo

Follow us:

Instagram/ X / Facebook / Tik Tok / Bluesky:

@SpoiledFruitPod

Website: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

Support the Show:

If this work matters to you, consider sharing the show, leaving a review, or supporting us through a donation.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, we investigate how the Vineyard Movement’s obsession with growth metrics, married co-leadership structures, and lack of accountability mechanisms created the perfect conditions for abuse and systemic failure.

We dive into how these dynamics directly set the stage for the rise of Michael and Brenda Gatlin at Duluth Vineyard—highlighting the early warning signs of toxic leadership, ignored reports, and the cultural factors that prioritized expansion over the safety of congregations.

This is where the cracks beneath the surface began to split wide open.

Topics Covered:

• Recap of Vineyard’s explosive growth under John Wimber and the rise of Vineyard Music.

• How Vineyard USA tracks growth metrics—similar to corporate performance systems.

• How married couples dominate leadership roles within the movement—and why that creates built-in conflicts of interest.

• The lack of consistent church governance, board accountability, or standardized bylaws across Vineyard churches.

• The illusion of local church “autonomy”—and how it’s applied inconsistently.

• The rise of Michael and Brenda Gatlin at Duluth Vineyard through measurable growth and national influence.

• Early signs of spiritual abuse and toxic leadership behaviors by the Gatlins.

• The ignored warning letter sent by Pastor Ryan Bauers to Vineyard USA in 2014.

• How systemic weaknesses within Vineyard leadership structures enabled long-term damage.

Key References and Resources:

• Duluth Vineyard’s public timeline and updates regarding leadership issues:

➔ Duluth Vineyard - Our Response to Allegations of Misconduct

• Vineyard USA’s statements about church autonomy and national oversight:

➔ Vineyard USA - Our Values and Structures

• Guidepost Solutions (later hired to assess Vineyard USA structures):

➔ Guidepost Solutions

• GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment):

➔ GRACE Official Website

• RAINN – National Sexual Assault Hotline (support for survivors):

➔ RAINN.org

Resources for Survivors:

• RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network):

➔ rainn.org | 1-800-656-HOPE

• The Hotline (Domestic and Emotional Abuse Support):

➔ thehotline.org | 1-800-799-SAFE

• GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment):

➔ netgrace.org

Ways to Support Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power:

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

• Rate and review the show to help amplify survivor stories.

• Share this episode with friends, church leaders, or anyone grappling with issues of faith, power, and institutional accountability.

• Follow John Williamson for updates, bonus content, and behind-the-scenes insights.

Disclaimer:

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power is a work of investigative journalism. It includes allegations and opinions based on interviews, public documents, media reports, and other sources. All individuals mentioned are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

This podcast is not affiliated with Vineyard USA or any religious organization. Names, events, and quotes are used for reporting and documentary purposes under fair use and public interest protections. The creators of this series have taken care to verify information where possible and present commentary in a good-faith effort to inform the public.

Some episodes contain references to sexual abuse, spiritual trauma, and other sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, we examine the devastating consequences of unchecked power within the Vineyard Movement, focusing on the story of Jackson Gatlin—son of Duluth Vineyard’s senior pastors Michael and Brenda Gatlin.

We explore the early warning signs ignored by leadership, the conflicts of interest that allowed Jackson to rise unchecked, and the culture of silence that protected him for years. We also unpack how Duluth Vineyard eventually broke from the pattern of institutional cover-up by reporting allegations to law enforcement, despite resistance from Vineyard USA leadership.

This is a story not just about one family’s failure—but about a system designed to protect itself at the expense of the vulnerable.

Topics Covered:

• Who Jackson Gatlin was, and the early red flags during his teenage years.

• Brenda Gatlin’s push to place Jackson in ministry despite concerns.

• Jackson’s involvement in youth ministry and later HLI (Heroic Leadership Institute).

• A buried misconduct report involving allegations of spiritual abuse (Brenda) and sexual harassment (Jackson) sent to Vineyard USA.

• The pivotal moment when a former youth group member came forward—and how John Kliewer reported it to police.

• Vineyard USA’s internal pushback against Duluth’s independent investigation efforts.

• Jackson Gatlin’s arrest, conviction, and the subsequent civil lawsuits.

• The systemic failures in Vineyard USA’s leadership and accountability structures.

Key References and Resources:

• Duluth Vineyard’s public timeline and updates on the investigation:

➔ Duluth Vineyard - Our Response to Allegations of Misconduct

• Vineyard USA’s official statements regarding Duluth Vineyard:

➔ Vineyard USA - Update Regarding Duluth Vineyard

• GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment):

➔ GRACE Official Website

• Guidepost Solutions (later hired for a broader Vineyard assessment):

➔ Guidepost Solutions

• News coverage of Jackson Gatlin’s conviction:

➔ Duluth News Tribune – Former Duluth Vineyard Youth Pastor Pleads Guilty

• RAINN – National Sexual Assault Hotline (for survivors):

➔ RAINN.org

➔ 1-800-656-HOPE (4673)

Resources for Survivors:

• RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network):

➔ rainn.org | 1-800-656-HOPE

• The Hotline (Emotional or Domestic Abuse Support):

➔ thehotline.org | 1-800-799-SAFE

• GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment):

➔ netgrace.org

Ways to Support Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power:

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

• Rate and review the show to help others find it.

• Share this episode with friends, family, or anyone exploring issues of faith, power, and accountability.

• Follow John Williamson for updates on future projects.

Disclaimer:

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power is a work of investigative journalism. It includes allegations and opinions based on interviews, public documents, media reports, and other sources. All individuals mentioned are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

This podcast is not affiliated with Vineyard USA or any religious organization. Names, events, and quotes are used for reporting and documentary purposes under fair use and public interest protections. The creators of this series have taken care to verify information where possible and present commentary in a good-faith effort to inform the public.

Some episodes contain references to sexual abuse, spiritual trauma, and other sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

🎙️ Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Full Interview: Ryan Bauers

In this full-length interview episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, we sit down with Ryan Bauers, former Vineyard pastor in Duluth, Minnesota, who in 2014 formally raised concerns to Vineyard USA about Michael and Brenda Gatlin—years before their son Jackson was placed into leadership or arrested for sexual misconduct.

In this powerful and personal conversation, Ryan reflects on what led him to speak up, how his concerns were received, and the emotional and spiritual toll that came with being a voice of warning inside a system not prepared to listen.

This interview is part of our extended series of full, unedited conversations with key individuals whose testimonies are essential to understanding the culture, breakdowns, and missed opportunities for accountability inside the Vineyard movement.

⚠️ Content Warning:

This episode includes discussions of spiritual and emotional abuse, leadership misconduct, and the mishandling of abuse reports. It may include strong language and emotionally difficult content. Please listen with care.

🔗 Stay Connected:

Subscribe to Spoiled Fruit for more full interviews and extended conversations with key voices from across the Vineyard movement.

For more, visit www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok: @spoiledfruitpod

🛑 Legal Disclaimer:

The views and experiences shared in this episode are those of the individuals interviewed and do not necessarily reflect the official position of any organization, past or present. This podcast is intended for informational and storytelling purposes only and should not be interpreted as legal, therapeutic, or professional advice. If you or someone you know has experienced abuse in a faith-based or institutional setting, please seek help from qualified professionals and survivor-advocacy organizations.

🎙️ Credits:

Guest: Ryan Bauers, former Vineyard pastor, Duluth, MN

Written and Hosted by: John Williamson

Produced by: John Williamson Productions, LLC

🎙️ Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Full Interview: Kris Sauter

In this special bonus episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, we share the full, unedited interview with Kris Sauter, former youth pastor at Duluth Vineyard.

Kris worked closely with the Gatlin family for years. In this conversation, he speaks candidly about what he witnessed from the inside—the early red flags, the power dynamics, and how the church’s leadership culture allowed misconduct and manipulation to go unchecked.

His perspective is crucial to understanding how abuse within Duluth Vineyard unfolded and how national leaders failed to respond—despite years of warning signs.

This is one of several full-length interviews being released throughout the series to offer deeper context and allow key voices to be heard without interruption.

⚠️ Content Warning:

This episode contains conversations about spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse, as well as references to institutional mishandling of misconduct. It may also contain occasional strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

🔗 Stay Connected:

Subscribe to Spoiled Fruit for future full interviews and bonus content, including upcoming conversations with Ryan Bauers, Brian Metzger, and others who’ve helped shape this investigation.

For more, visit www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok: @spoiledfruitpod

🛑 Legal Disclaimer:

The views and experiences shared in this episode are those of the individuals interviewed and do not necessarily reflect the official position of any organization, past or present. This podcast is intended for informational and storytelling purposes only and should not be interpreted as legal, therapeutic, or professional advice. If you or someone you know has experienced abuse in a faith-based or institutional setting, please seek support from qualified professionals and survivor-advocacy resources.

🎙️ Credits:

Guest: Kris Sauter, former youth pastor at Duluth Vineyard

Written and Hosted by: John Williamson

Produced by: John Williamson Productions, LLC

Episode 4: “God Told Me So”

When personal revelation becomes a shield for power, who pays the price?

In this episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, we examine the rise of Alan and Kathryn Scott—from their beginnings at Causeway Coast Vineyard in Northern Ireland to their controversial takeover of Anaheim Vineyard, the flagship church of the Vineyard movement. What began as a ministry rooted in spiritual fervor became a vehicle for unchecked authority, manipulation, and silencing of dissent.

Through firsthand accounts and extensive reporting, we uncover how Alan Scott’s insistence that he was hearing directly from God allowed him to bypass accountability, override governance structures, and consolidate power in ways that left congregants and staff confused, hurt, and in some cases, spiritually traumatized.

We explore:

• The red flags from Northern Ireland that went unheeded

• The leadership dynamics in Anaheim following the Scotts’ arrival

• Parallels between the Scott and Gatlin stories

• The role of worship platform culture and figures like Jeremy Riddle

• Why Vineyard USA didn’t intervene—and what that says about their systems

💬 Special Thanks

This episode wouldn’t be possible without the honesty and courage of those who agreed to share their experiences. We want to extend our deepest gratitude to everyone who trusted us with their stories—many of whom are speaking publicly for the first time.

💬 Special Thanks

This episode wouldn’t be possible without the honesty and courage of those who agreed to share their experiences. We are incredibly grateful to everyone who trusted us with their stories—many of whom are speaking publicly for the first time.

Thank you to:

🗣️ Brian Metzger, lead pastor at Raleigh Vineyard

🗣️ Rebecca Hopkins of The Roys Report, whose consistent and careful reporting helped illuminate key details of the Anaheim Vineyard story and provided a foundation for further investigation.

Your voices help shine a light where silence has prevailed for far too long.

🎧 Listen & Subscribe

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you listen to shows.

📣 Spread the Word

If this episode resonated with you, please consider rating and reviewing the show, sharing it with a friend, or posting about it using the hashtag #SpoiledFruitPodcast.

It’s time to ask why we excuse the bad fruit.

Disclaimer:

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power is a work of investigative journalism. It includes allegations and opinions based on interviews, public documents, media reports, and other sources. All individuals mentioned are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

This podcast is not affiliated with Vineyard USA or any religious organization. Names, events, and quotes are used for reporting and documentary purposes under fair use and public interest protections. The creators of this series have taken care to verify information where possible and present commentary in a good-faith effort to inform the public.

Some episodes contain references to sexual abuse, spiritual trauma, and other sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

🎙️ Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Full Interview: Spencer Kuvín

In this special bonus episode, we share the full, unedited interview with Spencer Kuvín, the Florida-based attorney representing multiple victims in the ongoing civil litigation connected to Duluth Vineyard, Vineyard USA, Michael and Brenda Gatlin, and Jackson Gatlin.

Spencer brings not only deep legal insight to the conversation, but also years of experience advocating for survivors in nationally significant abuse cases—including clients connected to Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Spencer discusses:

• How early warning signs were ignored

• What the legal case reveals about institutional patterns of protection

• Why survivors so often face retaliation when they speak up

• And what true accountability in a faith-based system might actually require

This interview offers essential context for understanding the legal and structural failures at the heart of this story—and what it means for the Vineyard movement and beyond.

⚠️ Content Warning:

This episode includes discussion of sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, emotional trauma, and ongoing legal proceedings involving high-profile defendants. It may also contain strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

🛑 Legal Disclaimer:

The views and experiences shared in this episode reflect those of the individuals interviewed and do not necessarily represent the official position of any organization, past or present. This podcast is intended for informational and storytelling purposes only and should not be interpreted as legal, clinical, or professional advice. If you or someone you know has experienced abuse in a religious or institutional context, please seek support from licensed professionals and survivor-centered organizations.

🙏 Special Thanks:

We extend our deepest thanks to Spencer Kuvín for his transparency, time, and advocacy on behalf of survivors.

🔗 Stay Connected:

For more full-length interviews and bonus content, subscribe to Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power wherever you get your podcasts.

Visit: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and X (formerly Twitter): @spoiledfruitpod

Exclusive content is available for subscribers and supporters.

🎙️ Credits:

Guest: Spencer Kuvín, Esq.

Written and Hosted by: John Williamson

Produced by: John Williamson Productions, LLC

📍 Episode Summary:

In this episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, host John interviews Rebecca Hopkins, an investigative journalist renowned for her in-depth reporting on abuse and misconduct within evangelical churches. Rebecca discusses the challenges of investigating religious institutions, the patterns of abuse she has uncovered, and the importance of accountability in faith communities.

🔗 Resources & Further Reading:

• Rebecca Hopkins’ Articles on Religion Unplugged: Explore her investigative pieces on various religious institutions and figures.

• Apologist Michael Brown Engaged in ‘Sexually Abusive Misconduct,’ Report Says

• Pastoral Team Urges IHOPKC Founder Mike Bickle Banned from ‘Public Ministry’

• Rebecca Hopkins’ Reporting on MinistryWatch: Investigative reports on church networks and leadership accountability.

• Churches are Leaving the ‘Network’ Led by Steve Morgan

🧠 Key Topics Discussed:

• The role of investigative journalism in uncovering abuse within religious institutions.

• Challenges faced when reporting on powerful religious figures and organizations.

• The importance of independent media in holding faith communities accountable.

• Insights into the patterns of misconduct within evangelical movements.

📣 Connect with Rebecca Hopkins:

• LinkedIn: Rebecca Hopkins

📬 Stay Connected:

• Subscribe to Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power: Stay updated with the latest episodes and discussions.

• Follow us on Social Media: Engage with our community and share your thoughts.

⚖️ Legal Disclaimer:

The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those of the guest and host and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any affiliated organization or institution.

All individuals mentioned are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. While every effort has been made to verify the information shared in this episode, listeners are encouraged to do their own research and draw their own conclusions.

This episode may discuss allegations of abuse, misconduct, or other sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

Nothing in this episode should be construed as legal advice. If you or someone you know has experienced abuse or misconduct, we encourage you to seek support from qualified professionals or legal counsel.

🎙️ Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power – Chapter 5: “The Appearance of Change”

After years of warning signs, three independent investigations were launched—GRACE, Trusted HR, and Guidepost Solutions—each tasked with uncovering what went wrong in churches like Duluth Vineyard and Causeway Coast Vineyard, and within Vineyard USA itself.

In Chapter 5, we take a closer look at what these investigations found, what they recommended, and how the churches and national leadership responded… or didn’t. We compare the actions taken by Duluth, Coleraine, Vineyard USA, and Vineyard UK & Ireland—and ask whether the reforms put in place are truly meaningful or simply cosmetic.

We also examine the new bylaws, employee handbook, conflict of interest policy, dating policy, and child protection policy that Vineyard pastors have been asked to sign. What protections are missing? Who holds the power now? And what happens when churches—like Ann Arbor, Duluth, and Raleigh—begin to push back?

⚠️ Content Warning:

This episode includes detailed discussion of spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse, and the mishandling of misconduct in church settings. It may also include strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

🛑 Legal Disclaimer:

The views and experiences shared in this podcast are those of the individuals interviewed and do not necessarily reflect the official position of any organization, past or present. This podcast is for storytelling and informational purposes only and should not be interpreted as legal, clinical, or professional advice. If you or someone you know has experienced abuse in a faith-based setting, we encourage you to seek support from qualified professionals and survivor-advocacy resources.

🙏 Special Thanks:

Thank you to our guests in this chapter:

Ryan Bauers, Kris Sauter, Brian Metzger, and JT Meyer,

whose honesty, vulnerability, and willingness to speak up make this series possible.

🔗 Stay Connected:

Subscribe and follow Spoiled Fruit wherever you get your podcasts.

Visit: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

Follow us on social: @spoiledfruitpod

Exclusive content available soon for subscribers.

🎙️ Credits:

Written and Hosted by: John Williamson

Produced by: John Williamson Productions, LLC

Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power

🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts

🔗 www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

What happens when pastors stay committed to a movement that no longer wants them?

In this episode, we hear directly from former Vineyard pastors who sought to create churches that were fully welcoming and affirming of LGBTQ individuals—only to find themselves pushed out, marginalized, or erased.

We begin with Ken Wilson, founding pastor of Vineyard Church of Ann Arbor, whose decision to become publicly affirming marked a seismic shift in his relationship with the movement he helped build. We also hear from JT Meyer, Melody Winderweedle, and Tom & Adey Wasink, all of whom paid a steep personal and professional price for choosing integrity over silence.

Each of their stories is different. But the pattern is the same: pastors who tried to make room for everyone… were quietly shown the door.

This chapter explores the tension between theology, community, and control—and what it costs to be inclusive in a system designed to shut the conversation down.

Special thanks to our guests:

🙏 Ken Wilson – for his honesty, clarity, and willingness to finally tell his side of the story

🙏 JT Meyer – for his courage in navigating a public reckoning with grace

🙏 Melody Winderweedle – for sharing her journey with insight and vulnerability

🙏 Tom & Adey Wasink – for their transparency, compassion, and continued work building a faith community rooted in love

📚 Learn more about the Wasinks’ journey and their new book, Permission to be Queer and Christian: A Path to Wholeness, available now through

https://www.amazon.com/Sanctuary-Queering-Heartland-Adey-Wassink/dp/1641801859

🗣️ If this episode resonates with you, please rate, review, and share the podcast.

🎙️ Join the conversation at www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com or on Instagram @spoiledfruitpod.

📄 Show Notes:

In this episode of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, John sits down with Tom and Adey Wassink—former Vineyard pastors who led a thriving congregation in Iowa until their decision to fully affirm LGBTQ+ people placed them at odds with national leadership.

Their story is one of love, loss, resilience, and rebirth. In this powerful conversation, they speak candidly about the painful process of being pushed out of the Vineyard Movement, the courage it took to stand by their convictions, and the unexpected beauty they found on the other side.

Tom and Adey are also the authors of the newly released book, Sanctuary: Queering a Church in the Heartland—a deeply personal and theologically rich memoir that explores what it means to create truly inclusive sacred spaces.

💬 Topics covered:

– Their call to create an inclusive church

– The reaction from Vineyard leadership

– How their congregation responded

– Building a sanctuary outside the system

– What it costs to live out affirming faith in the evangelical world

– Insights from Sanctuary and hopes for the future

📚 Grab the book:

Sanctuary: Queering a Church in the Heartland is available now wherever books are sold.

Like the music used in this episode?

The song you heard is "You Must Go" by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. It's available anywhere you find your music!

🔗 Connect:

Visit spoiledfruitpodcast.com for more information, transcripts, and related resources.

📢 Don’t forget to rate, review, and share the show—especially if this episode resonates with your own journey.

Chapter 7: Crisis as Currency — How Vineyard Leveraged Collapse to Consolidate Power

Content Warning: This episode includes references to spiritual abuse, institutional manipulation, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

In Chapter 7, we examine how Vineyard USA used crisis—real and perceived—to reshape its power structures under the banner of reform. As major scandals unfolded in Duluth and Anaheim, national leaders capitalized on the chaos to push through a sweeping reorganization process known simply as the “ReOrg.”

We trace National Director Jay Pathak’s rise to power, exploring how his formation under leaders like Rich Nathan and Michael Gatlin shaped his leadership style—and how patterns of control, suppression of dissent, and spiritual bypassing followed him into his national role.

We also break down:

• The striking similarities between the 2020 internal ReOrg memo and the Guidepost Solutions assessment used later to justify structural change.

• How a flawed survey, a narrow assessment scope, and a potentially compromised investigator created the illusion of consensus.

• Why many pastors now believe the ReOrg wasn’t just reform—it was a strategic seizure of control, engineered by those already in power.

Finally, we ask: what happens when a movement founded on revival becomes obsessed with survival? And who pays the price when reform is built on the backs of the abused?

💬 Connect:

• 💻 Website: spoiledfruitpodcast.com

• 📧 Email: spoiledfruitpodcast@gmail.com

• 📱 Instagram / TikTok / X: @spoiledfruitpod

📰 Media inquiries and tips:

Contact John Williamson at spoiledfruitpodcast@gmail.com

This is the full interview with Mandy Cavoto who, along with her husband Matt, were a part of the worship team at Mile High Vineyard in Denver, Colorado.

Many opens up about the spiritual abuse, the patterns of manipulation, and gaslighting she experienced there. She also reflects on her deep grief for the community she once loved, the cost of staying silent, and what healing has looked like in the aftermath. This conversation is raw, unflinching look at what happens when loyalty is weaponized and vulnerable staff members are left without protection or support.

Whether you've been following the story or are just tuning in, Mandy's story provides essential insight into the systemic failures explored throughout Spoiled Fruit.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of emotional, spiritual, and institutional abuse, as well as references to traumatic experiences within faith communities. Listener discretion is advised.

For resources go to www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com/resources

In this extended interview, former Vineyard pastor Reagan Waggoner shares his deeply personal journey from trusted leader to outspoken critic of Vineyard USA's handling of spiritual abuse, institutional accountability, and the controversial ReOrg process.

Reagan candidly discusses:

• The troubling dynamics he observed in Vineyard's national leadership
• His direct challenges to Jay Pathak and the chilling response
• The emotional toll of being investigated for asking difficult questions
• Why transparency, repentance, and reform matter more than institutional perservation

This conversation pulls back the curtain on a movement in crisis - and a leader who chose truth over silence, even at great personal cost.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of spiritual abuse, institutional betrayal, and emotional distress. Listener discretion is advised.

Legal Disclaimer: The views expressed in this interview are those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the position of this podcast or its producers. All individuals mentioned are presumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law.

Resources Mentioned:

• Spoiled Fruit Website: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com
• ReOrg Memo Analysis:
• Guidpost Report Summary:

Follow us on:

Instagram: @spoiledfruitpod

TikTok: @spoiledfruitpodcast

Email us: spoiledfruitpodcast@gmail.com

Subscribe, rate, and share to help bring these stories to light.

In the season finale of Spoiled Fruit: Faith & Power, we examine the final stage of Vineyard USA's transformation from grassroots revival to centralized authority. This chapter traces how real crisis - like the abuse scandal in Duluth - were used to justify a long-planned internal reorganization, giving a small group of leaders near-total control of the movement.

We explore how spiritual bypassing, gaslighting, and vague accusations of "gossip" were used to silence dissenters. Through the insights of Dr. Paula Swindle and Pastor Doug Warburton, we define these patterns for what they are: psychological and spiritual manipulation.

We honor the survivors - especially those in Duluth - and remember the young woman who lost her life. Because this story is about more than bylaws and policy. It's about people.

We conclude with a call to Vineyard's largest churches. If even a few demand change, the future could look different. But with 90% of churches already signed onto the new structure, the silence is deafening. Is this the version of Vineyard you still want?

Content Warning: This episode discusses spiritual abuse, systemic retraumatization, and suicide. Listen discretion is advised.

Call to Action:

Share this episode.

Contact your local Vineyard pastor.

Demand Accountability.

Call local and national media and ask them to pick up this story.

In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, Dr. Paula Swindle helps us put words to the pain many have experienced but struggled to name. A scholar, psychologist, and trauma-informed spiritual care provider, Dr. Swindle brings deep insight into how religious systems - like Vineyard USA - can engage in spiritual bypass, silence dissent, and retraumatize survivors in the name of unity or divine authority.

We talk about how spiritual abuse often masquerades as "pastoral care," why some institutions confuse conflict avoidance with peacekeeping, and how survivors are often labeled as "gossips" or "divisive" simply for telling the truth.

If you've ever been made to feel like you're the problem for questioning abusive systems - this conversation is for you.

Guest Bio:

Paula Swindle is a licensed clinical mental health counselor/supervisor, an associate professor of counseling and the Hickory campus program coordinator for the counseling program.

Swindle’s more than 24 years of clinical work includes founding and providing counseling and consultation through the Center for Healing Religious Harm, youth and family therapy, private practice, inpatient and partial psychiatric services and designing and implementing mental health programs in medical settings such as cardiac rehabilitation, pulmonary rehabilitation and oncology services. She is passionate about interdisciplinary work in medical settings.

She serves as Vice President of the Catawba Valley Association of Counselors and Therapists and provides clinical supervision services for provisionally licensed counselors in North Carolina. Her research interests include counseling in medical settings and counseling and spirituality, particularly in religious abuse. She is also a co-host of the podcast “Sacred Intersections” with local pastor Reverend Jill Isola, which focuses on the intersection between religion and mental health, particularly in the area of religious trauma and spiritual abuse.

In this emotional and unfiltered interview, we hear from Heidi Anderson and her children - former members of Mile High Vineyard, led by current Vineyard USA National Director Jay Pathak. When two of Heidi's children bravely came forward to report abuse, they went to one of the people they felt safest with: their youth group leader.

But that leader failed to immediately report. And instead of care or accountability, the church responded by protecting its own - funding legal support for the youth pastor and eventually removing the Anderson family from the community entirely.

This conversation is about what happens when institutional preservation is prioritized over pastoral responsibility - and what it costs the families left behind.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussions of sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, and institutional betrayal involving minors. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

Resources & Links:

www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

In Part 1 of this two-part interview, former Vineyard pastor JT Meyer shares his journey into the Vineyard movement - from his early pastoral calling to his commitment to creating a more inclusive and honest spiritual community. JT walks us through the formative experiences that shaped his theology and pastoral style, and the growing tension he felt as he began advocating for LGBTQ+ inclusion within a system that demanded silence.

This is a story of integrity, isolation, and the cost of refusing to compromise your values.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussions about church exclusion, spiritual abuse, and LGBTQ+ marginalization.

Resources & Links:

www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

In Part 2, JT Meyer recounts the aftermath of his decision to speak out. Despite his loyalty to the movement and attempts to engage in good-faith dialogue, JT was met with silence, isolation, and ultimately, exile from the Vineyard. He reflects on what he learned, the pastors who quietly supported him, and what a healthier, more just church could like.

This is a powerful look at the human cost of speaking the truth - and the hope that remains on the other side.

Content Warning: Includes themes of spiritual abuse, theological conflict, and pastoral isolation.

Resources: www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com

In this full-length interview, Spoiled Fruit sits down with Ken Wilson, founding pastor of Vineyard Church of Ann Arbor and one of the movement's earliest and most respected leaders.

For decades, Ken was known as a thoughtful, compassionate voice within the Vineyard - until he did something few pastors dared to do: publicly express support for LGBTQ+ inclusion. Despite years of faithful service, Ken was quietly pushed out, his legacy downplayed, and the church he founded taken over by those unwilling to even speak his name.

This is the first time Ken has publicly shared the full story of how his journey with the Vineyard ended - not because he left, but because he was no longer welcome.

Ken Wilson is the founding pastor of Vineyard Ann Arbor and the author of A Letter to My Congregation, a landmark book in the conversation around faith and LGBTQ+ inclusion. Recently retired from the ministry, Ken continues to write, teach, and advocate for a more expansive and inclusive expression of Christian faith.

Resources & Links:

www.spoiledfruitpodcast.com