This is episode #100 of Sauna Talk.

Do you want to know the Sauna Talk origin story? Well, when I started this podcast in 2016, 8 years ago, the idea was to help capture a bit of what felt like on the sauna bench. That’s a place where deep, collaborative conversations can happen. It’s often a place of untangling the wires in our heads, where our minds can open up to creative thinking, and problem solving.

It’s a fun place. Sauna Talk is described here as:

Sauna talk is a different kind of talk. It is casual talk between a father and his teenage son, and reconnection talk with a friend you wish you could see more frequently, or collaborative talk amongst NHL hockey players or business partners working through a strategy. This happens because we have no distractions and we are relaxed in mind, body, and spirit.

As we know, sitting on the sauna bench creates an interesting environment. Our bodies are being stressed, yet we are feeling very relaxed. For many of us, talking and thinking is difficult. Yet for others, it’s an environment where thoughts and ideas start flowing like in a kaleidoscope of colors.

In this episode, you will hear some excerpts from a few of the 99 episodes:

Tom Rolando

The Sauna Talk origin.

Tom and I are still very close buds. He and I are working on the book Sauna Life, and it’s a slow process.

Daryl Lamppa

Daryl Lamppa 22:46 – the old style stoves in the area.

Scott Olson

17:48 peddling to hockey stores.

18:15 Finding the hockey player entrepreneurs in their own towns.

Wim Hof

17:03 Sauna & Cold. 19:03

Dr. Jari Laukkenen

30:10-30-55 goals for further sauna research

#063 Alex Blyashuk

29:35-32:06, explaining veniks.

#072 Bruce Oreck

33:20-35:21. Finland happiest country. Explains his reasoning.

#097 Lasse Erikson

Bring the owners into the sauna.

35:20 – 37:18. That feeling that you have contributed to something good in life.

I hope you enjoy any one or number of these 100 episodes! It has been a pleasure hearing and sharing the motivations and passions of so many remarkable people!

Putting these episodes together has been a privilege. Sharing them with you continues to be a joy.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Ragna Marie Fjeld, General Secretary, Oslo Badstuforening.

What does Badstuforening translate to in English? Sauna Association. So, let me tell you a bit about the Oslo Sauna Association. Founded in 2016, the same year as the 612 Sauna Society in Minneapolis, Minnesota. But the difference start here. Where 612 has one sauna, and granted it is the original sauna with the same work horse original sauna stove, benches, walls, and spiritual patina abound, Oslo Badstuforening’s inaugural first sauna seeds were planted in much more fertile soil.

The soil along the harbor of Oslo’s fjord was ripe for sauna expansion. Yes, their original first sauna is still operational, and with a spiritual patina rating of 9.4, but surrounding this flagship sauna is a fleet of 18 additional saunas: 14 other floating saunas, and 4 mobile saunas. And as you listen to this, chances are that these numbers will be outdated and higher.

The Osla Sauna Association train is not slowing down. As you will hear in this episode, the constraints to growth and expansion are, well, just not there.

Revenue? No. They are most often fully booked (and by the way, very reasonably priced for all economies of economic income scales).

Steam master hosts? No. As you will hear, their HR department is busy with applicants. Including doctors and politicians.

Builders? No. Matter of fact, every architect in Norway wants to design a sauna.

Their corporate offices are unassuming and yet buzzing with activity. People dig working here, and their Secretary General, Ragna Marie Fjeld runs a collaboratively effective ship. Let’s listen in.

Today from any one of 22 saunas, we Sauna Talk from the Great Northern Sauna Village, Malcolm Yards, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.

“The Great Northern Sauna Village is a social and therapeutic experience hosted at Malcolm Yards. Visitors can immerse themselves in sauna culture by interacting with various Thermaculture traditions. And connecting with local sauna companies and builders. During 60-90- minute Steam Sessions, guests can explore various types of traditional wood-fired sauns. These include barrel, mobile, and backyard units; tent and floatings saunas. And a new shipping container event sauna for 20+ people. All this, while experiencing multiple forms of heat, steam, and aromatherapy with the cold contrast therapy of winter air and snow.”

The numbers speak for themselves: 22 saunas from over a dozen Saunapreneurs. Some of whom I’ve known, supported, and encouraged from back in the day when sauna in the public domain, even here in Minnesota’s sauna country, was fringe and not so enthusiastically embraced as today.

Sauna Talk glowing from the Sauna Village

You can see and feel the sauna glow. And as you listen along, you will be able to catch the spirit from a few of the people behind the scenes at the Great Northern Sauna Village. The event is three long weekends long. Here, we catch up with the folks today snap dab in the middle of the event on a chilly grey Saturday afternoon. Those interested in attending can catch the event during its last weekend, next weekend. Tickets are a reasonable $40, and available via the link supporting this podcast on SaunaTimes.com.

We start off this episode with Shaelyn from Superior Saunas, the mayor of the Great Northern Sauna Village. We meet up with Darin from Urban Wing, Jessie from Deep Wave. John from Superior Saunas, Nomad Phil. And Excelsior Saunas Jim, Matt from Superior Saunas, and a few other selected guests along the way.

Wherever this podcast may find you, I think you’ll enjoy getting to know what’s happening in this region. The boldly self proclaimed Sauna Capital of North America. Here is where you’ll find open arms, steam billowing, endorphins rushing, and cold water plunging.

Today we welcome back Dr. Charles Raison to this Sauna Talk podcast part 2.

I encourage you to check in with Part one, where Chuck and i work from the starting block about Sauna health benefits and research surrounding hypethermia and hot/cold contrast therapy.

In this episode, by design we go deeper.

We unpack hot cold therapy as a novel treatment for mental health.

101.3

101.3 isn’t just the radio frequency for a hit music station in the Twin Cities. We have foundational research surrounding the effects on the body and the mind of achieving this core body temperature. Ashley Mason’s work at University of California San Francisco is expanding upon the psychological and physiological effects of this level of heat stress when reaching this core body temperature. Physically, from, for example the standpoint of blood pressure and heart rate variability. Yet how do these physical changes affect people’s moods? Specifically, as a possible novel treatment in the area of depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues.

Totonu

The Japanese have a word for that nirvana feeling we get after a few sauna rounds and cold therapy action. They call it Totonu. And there is actually a published study on the neuro effects of sauna bathing. We link to this study on the Sauna Research Institute website as well as on SaunaTimes websites. In the study, it is recognized that sauna is an activity that promotes relaxation and health. Three cycles of sauna, cold, rest lowers your heart rate and makes you feel more relaxed. Intense feelings of happiness have been reported shortly after enjoying a hot sauna and cold water, what is known in Japan as the “totonou” state.

With this contrast therapy, we achieve a lower heart rate, changes of brain waves, and better metabolic health through the increase in brown fat production – known as “the good fat”. And one could argue that, for those horizontally challenged, sauna use raises heart rate to about the state we achieve with a fast walk. So there is a weight loss association to regular sauna use. But this is not something i’d get the scale out to rely upon.

The Vail Project – Eagle Valley

We discuss a “Top Flight Sauna” for Vail Health’s Behavioral Health Innovation Center. Right now in development, the CHILL’D Study (“Cold and Heat Investigation to Lower Levels of Depression”) will explore ways to optimize the proven benefits of hyperthermia for depression, including whether adding cold to heat will improve outcomes and whether hyperthermia can be effectively combined with standard antidepressants.  

Vail Health is especially interested in thermic bathing within ancient practices. Many of us listening enjoy Nordic style sauna, where we pay homage to the origins of the word sauna (Finland). And sometimes many spend a lot of effort scolding its improper pronunciation. Yet, for those of us that share and know that good feeling, the definition of sauna is arguably much more important than its pronunciation. And for that matter, the definition of sauna is universal and straightforward:

Sauna Definition: A room, often lined with wood, with a heat source that heats rocks to sufficient temperature to create steam when water is tossed on rocks.

So, for example, Temascal, Native American Sweat Lodge, Banya and venik treatments, are all ancient sauna sweat bathing practices.

Chris Lindley is Chief Population Health Officer, Vail Health and the Executive Director, Eagle Valley Behavioral HealthExecutive Director at Eagle Valley Behavioral Health. I will save his bio for what I hope to be a dedicated podcast interview with Chris. But a quick note: Chris’s education and passion revolve around improving the population’s health, emergency response, and wellness. Chris is a decorated combat veteran, receiving a Bronze Star and Presidential Citation while leading troops in Iraq in 2005.

The convergence of the Sauna Research Institute, Vail Health, and the work happening with Charles through Ashley in San Francisco, Chris and team at Vail Health, as well as at Harvard are exciting examples for all of us, that right now, what we all know to be true is being studied and researched.

Sauna is good for us!

Soon, as we continue to unpack and understand how.. and why.. and how much.. I will say, I hope you enjoy my visit with Dr. Charles Raison.. and Sauna on!

Today on the virtual smoke sauna bench, please welcome my friend Jarmo Hiltunen. Author of the brand new book: Building a Traditional Finnish Smoke Sauna.

I am overjoyed that for many, Jarmo will be your voice to the introduction to the wonderfulness of smoke sauna. Jarmo is a builder, but I would call him more of an artisan. Also, he is also a smoke sauna spiritual evangelist.

His book is now available on Amazon

As we type the words “smoke sauna” into the Amazon search bar, we have to sift our way through infrared “sauna” blankets and dozens of other misappropriations of the word “sauna” before finally finding this gem of a resource.

Many/most of us around the world have little knowledge or experience with smoke sauna. It’s not just buried within the search bar. And for some of us, being hidden and special is a nice place for smoke sauna to reside.

For smoke sauna is a deep in history, culture, and spirit. Yes, we have had many fragmentations of sauna. But, there will be minimal to no fragmentations of traditional smoke sauna. And thanks to this comprehensive work, Jarmo Hiltunen ensures us that the purity and authenticity of smoke sauna will remain with us forever.

I love that smoke sauna is hard to build. It takes commitment and cash. And these barriers help ensure that those willing to take on the task are both committed to the work. And dedicated to its reward.

This book helps us decide if we want to undertake the challenge. The book clearly helps us decide for ourselves if we are ready to undertake building our own smoke sauna. We Get a flavor of the potential satisfaction in the work, and if committed, be able to realize the amazing löyly and hot room microclimate that may await us at the end of the smoke sauna building journey.

Small world

I am blessed to have met Jarmo Hiltunen, the author, by upmost coincidence in a public (modified) smoke sauna in Helskinki, back in 2019. Despite living in separate continents, reading through his book, I feel once again that I am right there with him on the bench.

Buy this book. And whether you undertake your smoke sauna build or not, reading through the process will help you appreciate Jarmo’s dedication to smoke sauna. And that alone is worth having his book on your shelf.

Wishing you all good sauna. And thank you Jarmo for your hard work and dedication to making this book come to life.

Welcome to this Sauna Talk podcast episode with Nick Fox: Minnesota’s first Wim Hof certified instructor and baker of amazing homemade bread.

We communed in heat, cold plunge and nature in my backyard sauna recently and you’ll hear my interview with Nick in just a moment. But before then, I’d like to take you back to a dark and cold February night in Minnesota a few years ago when Nick first sat down to watch the VICE documentary on Wim Hof, the Ice Man. Inspired by the science and adventures in the cold with minimal clothing, Nick began taking cold showers and practicing breathwork the very next day. His experience with the Wim Hof Method (WHM) initiated Nick’s breathwork journey. In January of 2022 he went to Poland to complete his certification as a WHM Instructor, and later he became certified in the Oxygen Advantage. Now, he guides breathwork and coaches ice baths in workshops around the Midwest. 

Pulmonaut beginnings

Before becoming a full-time Pulmonaut, (a pulmonaut is simply someone who uses their breath as a tool for exploration and transformation) Nick taught Philosophy, History, and Art at both the high school and college level. He is also a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve, and spends his summers out in the field with the cadets at the Military Academy in West Point, NY. When he’s not playing Army, he’s writing and drawing with his young kids. 

Sauna Talk Podcast cold exposure breathwork guests

Those familiar with this podcast are familiar with a few other Sauna Talk guests from the world of cold exposure and breathwork. A few that come to mind include Harvey Martin, who currently is on staff breathing and contrast therapy-ing with the San Francisco Giants major league baseball team, Jesse Coomer, trainer, breathwork coach and author of two books on the subject, and Wim Hof himself, back in 2017. So feel free to dig back and check out these episodes in particular.

Back to Nick

Teaching people deep conscious breathing and cold exposure techniques is his new passion. You can visit his website foxfirebreathworks.com where you’ll be able to check out his upcoming workshops and classes. For example, in January 2024, it should be cold enough in Minneapolis for Nick’s winter swimming class at the Swedish Institute. He is mobilizing a kick ass wood fired mobile sauna (one that I actually had a hand in helping with with my friends Brad and Ben at Prairiewood Saunas, but that’s story for another day coming soon). Anyhow, Nick looks forward to helping you explore your inner strengths. And I am super happy to share some breathing on the bench with you and Nick Fox from FoxFire Breathworks. Welcome Nick to Sauna Talk!

Today we welcome a very special guest to Sauna Talk: Dr. Charles Raison. His biography is as follows:

Dr. Raison is a the Mary Sue and Mike Shannon Chair for Healthy Minds, Children & Families in the School of Human Ecology and a Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin – Madison. Dr. Raison received his medical degree from Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, where he was elected to Alpha Omega Alpha and won the Missouri State Medical Association Award. He completed residency training at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and Hospital in Los Angeles. In addition to his medical training, Dr. Raison obtained his Masters of English from the University of Denver.

Dr. Raison has written and published over 100 scientific papers as well over 20 review papers and editorials. Chapters he has written have been featured in over 30 books, and he has written two books, most recently The New Mind-Body Science of Depression, published by WW Norton in 2017. Dr. Raison’s publications have been cited over 14,000 times, with three publications having more than 1,000 citations. His H-index is 44. The recipient of several teaching awards, Dr. Raison has received research funding from the National Institute of Mental Health, National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His visionary work focuses on the treatment of depression in response to illness and stress, translating neurobiological findings into novel interventions. In addition to his activities at University of Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Raison is the mental health expert for CNN.com.”

Reference: UW-Madisonhttps://www.psychiatry.wisc.edu › staff › raison-charles

Sauna Talk excerpts

We discuss Charles’ academic and personal background, how he has been interested in World’s ancient practices including Buddist Tuumo meditation, where Tibetan monks are wrapped in cold wet blankets and through breathing and meditation, are able to warm themselves for a long period of time. The area around research and studies to treat depression are of special interest. Reaching a hypothermia state has proven health benefits. Dr. Raison’s 2010 depression study with 16 people, who reached 101.3 degrees f. shown a marketed decrease in depression. The participants actually lowered their internal body temperature.

The World leader in Hypothermia

We discuss other work and studies happening right now in the United States, through Harvard University and Massachusetts General. Also Ashley Mason’s work in San Francisco. More on this soon! The Vail sauna lab Eagle County Co. is an interesting place. The disparity of rich and poor, and people moving their and experiencing the Paradox of Paradise, are likely culprits that lead to the area having the highest suicide rate in the country.

Ashley Mason, UCSF. Heat has an antidepressant effect.

Transforming mental health

The good news is a private investment of $100mm towards a new hospital in Vail that is committed to transform mental health in this country. Providing equitable care for rich and non rich, integrating mind/body practices. Vail Health is set to be a world class research institute. Heat, thermal studies, psychedelic research are all areas of study. It is an exciting time for sauna research.

The CHILL study. Can you benefit from heat whether you are taking an antidepressant or not?

This episode tees the ball up for our follow up conversation which I will be equally excited to bring to you in the future.

So, for right now, I am pleased to present to you Dr. Charles Raison.

Welcome to this mini Sauna Talk episode from inside and around the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna was constructed as part of the RunningMan festival outside of Atlanta Georgia, this past weekend, mid October 2023.

I’ll try to connect the dots to how the World’s Largest Sauna came about. And it started with the folks at Embrace North, building a few saunas for the All Day Running organization. And as All Day Running began planning for the RunningMan festival, well, their experience with good heat and creative right brain thinking on the bench fostered a way to “scale” sauna.\

And we move over to All Day Running’s co founder Todd Ferneaux’s backyard. Here is where Todd built the mock prototype for the World’s Largest Sauna. I’ll spare the nuts and bolts of its creative construction, as you can listen to my recent podcast interview with Todd for more on that.

World’s Largest Sauna building

I was able to lend to help with some of the construction of the sauna and set up.

For now, though, I’d like to welcome you into the event: RunningMan. I attended for a few reasons, and one was to help share what I know about running the sauna stoves. I have used this same stove for 30 years. As elder statesman with more grey hair than most at the event, I was happy to help coach the stokers who became quick studies on stove operation. (note: you don’t have to go into the hot room to see how your stove is performing. If you see smoke coming out the chimney, it needs attending).

Runners and Sauna enthusiasts

Another reason why I was happy to attend RunningMan is to celebrate and experience all the goodness happening with the Venn diagram overlap of people into hot/cold contrast therapy and people into running. As we look at the overlap, the commonalities become clear.

Runners:

• know how to push the limits of human performance.
• are tuned into their bodies.. and their minds.
• get high on their own supply.
• are generally conscious folks who can feel when endorphins are rushing.
• know how good it feels the moment you stop banging your head against a wall.

All above also applies to all of us who dig sauna. And cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly. Knowing our bodies, minds, spirits. Runners, generally, all dig sauna. And when they feel good heat, it’s all over.

So, in this episode you’ll hear from Todd at All Day Running, C T from Nomad Sauna, Tyler, one of the stokers, and a couple other guests, all of whom will give you a good flavor of what it’s like to be in and around the World’s Largest Sauna.

Today on the bench, we welcome Todd Furneaux who is spearheading the building of the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna is being constructed as part of Running Man, a three day festival happening outside of Atlanta Georgia this mid October 2023.

During this episode, you’ll hear about Todd’s company and cohorts, All Day Running. And how the idea of building the World’s Largest Sauna was surely fostered on the sauna bench or in the cold plunge. As with endorphins running and community spiriting, this is the environment for Sauna Talk and crazy out there thinking.

Atlanta steeplechase. Grass track. Sauna Village, fun zone, DJs, live music, conferences,

October 17, 18, 19 event.

Sauna can hold. 250 – 350 people at a time.

Mechanics of World’s Largest Sauna

Specially designed Todd Right Brain Thinking:

• 3,000 square feet in modular squares using 4’x4′ framing material.
• Side walls: sauna tent material 3 ply oxford. 9′ tall 20′ wide.
• Flooring: cedar flooring.
• Roof: Greenhouse style sauna inspiration from NorthUp in Minneapolis. Clear polycarbonate roofing. Same material It’s rated to over 550f. to melt it. The material let’s the light in. There is a greenhouse effect with clear polycarbonate as roofing. On sunny Atlanta days, it’s about 120f. before lighting to the stove.
• Sauna stoves: 13 large Kuumas. oven for every 200 sf.

Prototype: 200 sf sauna 20’x10′. A great way of testing the temperature of things. How the size of the panels.

Final dimensions of the world’s largest sauna

65′ x 45′ with extra 200 – 400′ square feet entry and exit.

Exercising your immune system

Running and Sauna.. they go hand in hand.

Today on the virtual sauna bench, i’m pleased to bring you Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, author of the new book Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat.

We join Emma from her home in North London. And, we hear from Emma how the idea for this book was seeded through the pandemic. Plus, how the health benefits of sauna helped make the book happen.

In the book, Emma does a great job outlining the reported health benefits of sauna, and we touch upon a few of these during our interview.

You wil be transported to how Emma and photographer Maija Astikainen became fast friends, collaborators, and travel partners through the Nordic regions of Europe.

Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat is shipping starting mid September. Pre orders are available now via Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

Editor’s note

During Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, we need to dive deeper into Sauna Brain! What it is and why it’s good, but I forgot where I left my towel and water bottle.

Glenn’s notes

I found myself reaching for a pen many times while reading this new book! So, a few excerpts and notes include:

Health Benefits: Good reasons to roast

Sweat

“Sauna makes us sweat which is a good gym work out for the organs and the blood vessels,” says Hans Hägglund MD, PhD, a medical doctor and professor at Uppsala University in Sweden.

Sauna Detox

We produce about 0.5kg of sweat in a 30-minute
sauna, and while around 97 per cent of this
is water, studies have shown that some toxins
and heavy metals are excreted too, and sweat
does this more effectively than urine.

Good Stress

Hormetic stress is “good stress”. Things like
jumping in a cold pond, or competing in a
marathon, or making a really complicated cake
are examples of good stress.

Temperatures of around 38°C to 40°C stimulate
the immune system

A few other sauna health benefits from our Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly

Inflammation

Charles Raison MD, professor of psychiatry
at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (USA),
is an active proponent of this theory. “Since the
1980s, we have known that depressed people
are hotter and find it harder to sweat,” he says.
Plus, “The pathways that control our ability to cool
off overlap with pathways that regulate our
mood. Body temperature and mood are
directly linked.”

Pain relief

Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. So, for those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.

Immunity

Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. For those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.

Blood Pressure

Laukkanen’s seminal study found that those
who took sauna baths four to seven times a
week cut their risk of high blood pressure by
almost half compared to once-a-week sauna
bathers. Why? Well, the most common theory
is that the increase in body temperature during
sauna causes blood vessels to dilate, which can
increase blood flow and improve the function of
the endothelium – the tissue that lines the inside
of blood vessels.

“Nature teaches more than
she preaches. There are no sermons
in stones. It is easier to get a spark
out of a stone than a moral.”
John Burroughs,
The Writings of John Burroughs, 1913

Today on the global sauna bench, we Sauna Talk with Mikkel Aaland from inside and just back from war torn Ukraine.

Introduction from Minnesota

Before we dive into this episode, I’d like to paint a picture of where I am sitting and what i’m thinking about. I am speaking to you while sitting on my deck at our island cabin in Northern Minnesota. I can see about 8 miles to the East, along a shoreline dotted with islands and outcroppings of birch and pine. It’s a crystal clear day with light puffy clouds across the horizon. I’m in shorts, barefoot, and have just immersed myself from a cool morning swim. Random cold exposure being that much more effective than deliberate. There are no airplanes overhead. The aura is of calm and peace.

To my right, 25 or so steps down a walkway through the woods, sits our cabin sauna that we built in 1996. Original stove. Original design, it’s been my thermal tranquil oasis for decades. It exudes spiritual patina. Those of you with your own saunas know what i’m talking about. In sauna we are transformed with peace and tranquility.

I recently turned 60. I am scaling down my professional career in the food industry. Gratefully, I am free from contractual bullshit in the sauna industry. I get to work with who I like, and most all of us are really cool, thoughtful, conscious people. I am feeling mighty blessed, and in times like these, sitting quietly on the sauna bench or on the dock between sauna rounds, If i listen quietly enough, i can hear soft voices of people, even half way around the world, miles less fortunate. Can you listen quietly enough to hear their voices?

And speaking of really cool, thoughtful, conscious people, I’d like to reintroduce to you Mikkel Aaland. Let’s have Mikkel help us hear these voices.

Mikkel from Ukraine: three time Sauna Talk guest

It’s hard to put into words the respect and appreciation I have for Mikkel. With this episode, he has become a third time guest to the Sauna Talk podcast, outnumbering most all others by two. It’s a lot of Sauna Talk. Yet Mikkel, to me, brings Sauna Talk up a notch. Where many see a crescent, Mikkel sees the whole of the moon.

During our July 2016 podcast, we discuss his iconic book Sweat. On our September 2020 podcast, during sauna and the time of Corona, we discuss his Perfect Sweat Documentary project. And now today, you will hear in Mikkel’s voice how Ukrainians are dealing with the invasion of their country from within Ukraine. This is his third trip into Ukraine since the invasion. And with each trip, Mikkel is facilitating bringing a sauna with him to the war torn country of Ukraine.

But this Sauna Talk with Mikkel Aaland episode isn’t a downer. I promise you. You will hear about the wonderfulness of what sauna is bringing to the people of Ukraine. And we sauna enthusiasts can put two and two together to get an idea what sauna can do for people in distress. I get choked up during this interview, and that’s what sauna can do for us. Like many of us, we can take a lot of good löyly, but our edges can be soft.

I don’t know about you, but when I read and hear about the sacrifices and perils happening with the people in Ukraine, I get very bummed out. Can we do something is a valid question. And I’m happy to report, Mikkel Aaland is doing a lot more than just something.

Sauna-Aid

Yes, Sauna-Aid!  Mikkel is quick to compliment many others, yet he is leading the charge on behalf of Sauna Aid, a multinational initiative sponsored by the International Sauna Association.

This is a beautiful story of the magic of sauna. The power of sauna as community, therapy, healing, comradeship, wellness, mindfulness, peace. So many great attributes, let’s hear it from the words of Mikkel Aaland.

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Alan Jalasjja who shares with us “The Spirit of Sauna.”

Alan is an evangelist who is with us to help promote the experience. Growing up with sauna his whole life, as a Finnish Canadian, we get the perspective of what sauna spirit means to him.

World Sauna Forum 2024

The growth of the event compared to 2022

Globe and Mail article

I encourage you to click through the link towards his Op Ed opinion piece that recently appeared in the Globe and Mail, which discusses “enjoying sauna in the now.” Sure the health benefits are there for the long term, but wow, let’s enjoy our sauna time now.

Thermal cycle

We discuss the value of time. The holy trinity to a good cool down: cold water, nature, time.

The four elements to sauna

• fire
• air
• water
• earth (the stones).

Some magical gems from Alan, and happy to share with you here.

Today on the virtual sauna bench, we Sauna Talk with Jackie from Cedar Grove Saunas in Northern Maine. Jackie is just back from her sif week sauna pilgrimage to four countries in Northern Europe.

Jackie has built her own saunas, and is four years into hosting guests traveling far and wide to Cedar Grove Saunas. We are kindred spirits of good heat. We share an interest and passion towards the Latvian Pirtus tradition, spearheaded by Biruté and Rimus from the Lithuanian Bath Academy.

Are you interested in bringing plants and herbs into your sauna practice? Jackie helps us better understand this tradition.

Sauna in Nature is bigger than all of us. And thanks to Jackie, we get to hear her voice and values of how she is bringing this spirit forward.

After hearing about mobile saunas Jackie got the idea to start a business and build another sauna to bring to others. She set off in 2019 to convert a horse trailer into a sauna but it wasn’t easy or quick. Jackie’s high standard of quality, initial lack of carpentry skills, and the trailer’s unique challenges (such as all the rounded corners) conspired to extend the build beyond the limits of her patience. Suddenly she wondered whether other people would pay to use her backyard sauna. However, a spa was born.

BONUS: We begin this podcast with a few brief words from my sauna bench, last night. Friends and neighbors from age 8 to 84 share a couple thoughts to warm your sauna spirit.

Today on the virtual Sauna Talk bench, we join Marishi Morchida 持田 摩利支, from the Japan Sauna Institute 日本サウナ総研. Marishi joins us from his apartment in Washington, DC. During this episode, we learn about the active Japan sauna culture. How thermal bathing is intertwined into Japanese culture. You’ll learn some key differences between Japanese sauna culture vs. North American in particular. Like many of us, Marishi is a serious sauna enthusiast. Not so much frown serious, but super into it passionate serious. Marishi shared with me that he was a bit nervous to be on Sauna Talk, but I think you’ll agree, he comes off just fine.. as if we were right there on the sauna bench… with you!

Link to the 2021 Japan Sauna Institute survey is here.

Hi Marishi, welcome to Sauna Talk.  Please share with us where you are from, where you are now, and what you are doing where you are now. 

I am originally from Japan. I was born and raised in a city called Hiroshima, then I moved to Tokyo for my undergraduate studies. After college, I worked in Tokyo for several years, and that’s where I fell in love with the public bathing culture of Japan. People say that Tokyo’s population density is one of the highest in the world, but what they don’t realize is that Tokyo’s public bathing density is also one of the highest. I don’t have any data to back this up, but I’ve visited many major cities in the world, including Beijing, NY, Singapore, and Tokyo is definitely a bathing paradise. Anyway, that’s where I fell in love with public baths, and that’s where I fell in love with saunas.

After working in Tokyo for 5 years, I wanted to continue my education in the US, so I moved to Chicago to get my MBA. I graduated last year and am now based in Northern Virginia.

Tell us more about your “day job.”

I work for a company called Capital One, which is a large financial institution that focuses on the credit card business. What’s interesting and scary about the credit card business is that everything you do with your card is captured and stored as data.  I analyze that transaction data and come up with a plan to improve our products or improve our strategy. “Customers don’t like the rebate percentage on this product”, let’s change it. “Customers in the construction industry turn out to be the best fit for our product”, let’s talk to them more. That’s my day job.

Sauna. I sense it is an important part of your life, as well. When did you first become exposed to sauna and describe the type of sauna to which you’ve been exposed ?

I also feel that sauna is an important part of life! I can’t even remember my first encounter with a sauna. It was when I was a small child, and my father and mother were both big fans of hot springs. We visit the local public bath like every month, and when our family plans a family trip, they almost always make sure that the place we’re staying at has a high-quality bath for customers. Most public baths and hotels in Japan have saunas, and I just followed my father.

It was not until I started working that I really saw the value and power that sauna has. This is just my personal opinion, but suffering and anguish improve your sauna experience.  When I joined a company, I was just a stupid kid who didn’t know how to talk to my boss properly. This is really a big problem because I was working in a big Japanese company with a long history and hierarchical structure, and my boss often picked up my words and scolded me.  I woke up every morning around 5:30 a.m. and worked until 10 to 11 p.m., and when I went home, it was usually midnight. During this period of my life, the sauna helped me a lot. Every day after work, I would go to a gym and just go into the sauna without exercising. I just did nothing there. I would just relax without thinking about my work, enjoy the sauna and cold shower, and then go home. I’m very sure that without the sauna, my life would have been much more miserable. 

As for the type of sauna, I do everything. I like electronic sauna. Traditionally, many saunas in Japan are extremely dry, but lately more and more places have more humid, Finnish style sauna too, I like it. I used to go to Russian banya in Chicago and I loved it too.

Now that you are in the US, you have a special perspective of sauna in two different countries. Two different continents. Please share with us your observations about similarities and differences of sauna in US vs sauna in Japan. 

It’s so different, the only similarity I’ve found is that a sauna is a sauna. Both countries have many electrically heated saunas. That’s where the similarities end. 

One big difference I have noticed is where people enjoy saunas. For many people in the US, correct me if I’m wrong, but sauna is something you enjoy at home. Or at least a gym or membership club, a place that only a limited number of people have access to. So when I go to a sauna subreddit, people are almost always discussing what saunas to buy instead of what sauna to go to. 

In Japan, saunas are a major form of entertainment, regardless of gender or age. Public saunas are everywhere, and you just invite your friends, co-workers, or family members to go together. Let’s be naked, enjoy the sauna and drink good sake or beer, that’s how we deepen the connection with people. 

Another thing is silence. In Japan, you’re expected to be quiet in the sauna, and in many spas you can actually see posters that say you have to refrain from talking. But in the U.S., not just in the sauna, it’s very common to make small talk with someone you don’t know, right? At first I wanted to concentrate on the sauna experience itself, but now I really enjoy talking to people I meet in the sauna.

The Japan Sauna Institute. How did you personally become involved. Give us a history of the organization and your involvement. 

Japan Sauna Institute was established in 2015. It was started as the first research institute focusing on sauna. We’re also different from other similar organizations in Japan in that our members are just ordinary sauna users while other organizations are mostly operated by companies. We aim to provide insights from user’s perspective, and conduct various studies regarding the sauna industry in Japan. 

I joined the Japan Sauna Institute in 2021, and it was just a coincidence. When I was doing my MBA, I wanted to study data science. I talked to one of my friends, and he said that if you want to study data science, the best way to learn it is to actually write a script to find out something you’re interested in.  I was into saunas, so I thought it would be a good idea to analyze sauna data with Python. 

So I scraped data about saunas from all the public baths from some websites, created a big data set, and just played with it. I analyzed the data to find out things like the best temperature of the sauna room, the best temperature of the cold plunge, which district in Tokyo offers the best access to the best saunas. At first, I just wrote an article on my personal blog, but at some point I thought it would be great if I could work with like-minded people, so I googled to see if there were any organizations doing research on saunas. I found the Japan Sauna Research Institute, I e-mailed them, sharing a link to my blog and that I would like to collaborate with them, then Tachibana, the head of the institute, told me that I should just join the institute.

The sauna study. This isn’t your first one. Tell us about it’s history and how you organize the study, how many participants etc. who they are. How you find them. 

We started the Japan Sauna Survey in 2016, with the aim to provide quantitative data and analysis on the sauna market in Japan. I suppose this is the same in other countries, but the sauna and spa market is very fragmented, and the vast majority of them are not small companies. What this means is that there is not much public data provided by companies and as a result people only talk about sauna based on their perceptions. That’s why we thought it was important to provide companies in the industry and sauna enthusiasts with a broad overview of the market. Since then, the Japan Sauna Survey has become our annual work, and especially after Covid, it has become an important health checkup for the industry. The good news of the latest survey is that we have seen a solid rebound in the sauna population after the decline due to Covid in 2021.

The study, and I will publish it in the show notes, reveals some very interesting data. What couple few things stand out to you in the study results ?

One thing I would like to point out is that the sauna population is on the rise again. As everyone knows, the Covid 19 pandemic was terrible, but it really took a toll on the sauna industry in Japan. Japan is one of the fastest aging countries in the world, and people are generally very conservative, and many people stopped going to the sauna. Some cities, including Tokyo and Osaka, enforced a lockdown, so literally public baths in those places were forced to close, which was a huge blow to that business because you still have to pay utilities, you still have to pay rent, all those kinds of costs. The population of casual sauna-goers, which we call “light sauna-goers,” is still much smaller than it was before Coverid. It’s about 8.5 million now and it was about 15 million before covid, but the medium and heavy sauners, people who go more than once a month, have actually recovered almost to pre-covid levels.

Let’s talk about sauna bathing in Japan. One of the aspects that I respect and appreciate is no jankification in the cold plunge. What do sauna bathers do after exiting the hot room and before entering the cold plunge ?

For many sauna enthusiasts in Japan, the cold plunge water is sacred. You have to make sure you either take a shower or do kakemizu, which means scooping water with a small basin and washing away the sweat before using the cold plunge. 

I think this custom has its roots in the hot spring culture of Japan. People are expected to wash their body or do kakemizu before using the hot spring bath, and we have to do the same for the cold plunge.

Electric vs wood fired?

Personally, I like wood-fired saunas a lot, but unfortunately, there aren’t many public saunas that have wood-fired saunas.

Sauna tents?

I have no experience with sauna tents. What a shame!

Back to you and sauna. How would you describe good heat ?

Back in Japan, when I was still new to sauna, one of my friends told me that good sauna or good heat makes you sweat, and that’s the definition of good heat for me as well. Personally, I like hot sauna with higher than 200 degrees Fahrenheit, relatively humid, and the heat should be dispersed and evenly distributed in the room. In short, I like hot, humid, sweaty heat. 

Are Americans f***ed up (I’m kidding! Am I?)

I don’t think so, America is a great country.  It is a land of opportunity and I really enjoy the amount of personal freedom I can never have in Japan. The only thing I would like to say to the USA is that there should be more public bathhouses in the USA.  I really wonder why there are not many public bathhouses in the US. I’ve been to Russian and Korean spas in Chicago, NY, DC and every time I go I have such a wonderful time. I think part of the sauna experience is meditation. Just focusing on the heat and your body, away from all the outside stimuli from friends or smartphones. In the last decade, meditation has become a big part of many professionals in the US and I think sauna has a great appeal to this segment of the population.

If you could have a mobile sauna and bring it anywhere in the world, where would you like to go and enjoy a sauna session?

I’m a big baseball fan, so I would like to take it to a baseball stadium and watch baseball while taking a sauna.  I’m not necessarily a big fan of this, and you probably won’t like this idea either, but a lot of saunas in Japan have televisions in them. Normally, people don’t care too much about it, but whenever there is a big sports game, the sauna room has a strange sense of unity. I would like to have a similar but more real experience by bringing my mobile sauna to a baseball stadium.

If you could sauna with anyone in the world, dead or alive, past or present, who would you choose?

I honestly don’t have a person’s name, but if I had to answer, I would say people who have ever said no to my invitation to go to the sauna. When I was doing my MBA in Chicago, I invited many people to go to the sauna together, and some people said, “No, I’m not interested. I don’t understand”. I really feel for them, they should at least try it once and then they can judge if it is for them or not. So when I have a change, I want to take those people to the sauna and see their reactions. 

When you know it is going to be a sauna day for you, from the morning of anticipating sauna, to going to sauna, maybe the preparing and lighting of the stove, the first heat up, the first splash of löyly, the first cool down, second, and on, all the way through to going to sleep at night, what is your most favorite moment if you had to pick, one of your favorite moments of sauna? 

This is an interesting and difficult one. I love every part of my sauna experience, from the anticipation to going to bed that day and having the best sleep. If I have to choose one, I like drinking beer with my close friends after 5 sauna sessions. Sauna is the best spice for food and the best spice for creating a bond with people. That’s my favorite part.

What do you think is most misunderstood about sauna, that you would like others less familiar with sauna to know and better understand?

Some people in Japan treat sauna as a kind of mental and physical training. It’s so hot and uncomfortable, but if you can endure this difficulty for 5 minutes, you’ll be fine and healthier. I think they’re missing the essence of sauna. Sauna is comfortable. You don’t have to stay there for a certain amount of time, you can get out whenever you want and take a cold shower or jump into the cold water to cool down.

Today from many of the 12 or so sauna benches, we hear from guests attending Sauna Days 2023 at Larsmont Cottages, Two Harbors, Minnesota.

The stories are from their hearts. We get to tap into their motivations and ambitions to make their way to Northern Minnesota for the third Sauna Days festival this early chilly May weekend. Though upwards of 200 people were in attendance, we hear from a fraction of the attendees. Most were on other benches or experiencing the world’s largest cold plunge in Lake Superior. Yet with the voices on this episode, you’ll be able to get an on the spot perspective of what Sauna Days is all about.

I’ll take a moment to set the scene. Larsmont Cottage is an upscale resort along the shores of Lake Superior, along the rocky North Shore North of Duluth Minnesota, and South of Canada.

If you’re looking for peace and tranquility or a launch pad for North Shore adventures but not your typical hotel — our cottages on Lake Superior are a place to celebrate the immense beauty and scale of our planet’s greatest lake. Tucked away in 40 acres of private woods south of Two Harbors, this location combines a Northwoods experience with 1,300 feet of beachfront shoreline.

– Larsmont Cottages.com

So, imagine a Larsmont Cottages sauna take over, and you’ve got a picture of Sauna Days.

I’ll keep this introduction nice and short, and will leave you with this final thought of consideration. Does sauna bring out the best in people or does sauna bring out the best people. Maybe it’s a lot of both. But whatever the case, judging from the smiles, laughter, and community spirit, Sauna Days was a joyful experience.

At checkout on Sunday, many were signing up for Sauna Days 2024. I caught more than a few guests walking the grounds, sizing up their favorite lakeside cottage to commit back to the front desk. Hope you enjoy this episode, and I hope to see you at Sauna Days 2024.

For more on Sauna Days 2023, please check the review here.

Today on the bench, we are joined with David Dragseth, Lutheran paster and CEO of Superior Saunas.

Let’s consider for a moment, the Venn Diagram overlap of A: Lutheran Pastors and B: Sauna business CEOs. To my knowledge, the overlap is a body of one: David Dragseth. Also of note, if we consider the Venn Diagram overlap of A: Lutheran Pastors and B: Guests to the podcast Sauna Talk, well, i’m happy to report that David Dragseth is joined with Lutheran Pastor Dave Pearson.

For those looking for some good spiritual sauna continuity, I encourage you to have a listen to both of these podcast episodes.

David and Glenn Sauna Talk

David and I were together on my Minneapolis sauna bench recently. We enjoyed sauna and then communing in urban nature, relaxing between rounds on my sauna deck, outdoor shower and cold plunge adjacent.

A wood burning sauna and a sauna deck in the rain are perfect backdrops for me to have David expand upon some of his Venn Diagram overlap of religion and sauna as a religion.

You could say that if Jesus grew up in a Nordic country, he may have been a sauna builder. We’ll never know, but we do know that David and I are both sauna builders, which is just the beginning of our Venn Diagram overlap. David fell naturally into the world of sauna building and the sauna business.

In this episode, we learn about David’s sabbatical to Finland, and being impressed and influenced by Finnish confirmation camps. Could there be a place in North America for similar camps? We talk about one of my favorite subjects: the spiritual connection of sauna, as both a noun and a verb. We talk about his business Superior Saunas. How it came into his life, and now, how it is a big part of his life.

Without further ramblings, please welcome David Dragseth to Sauna Talk.

Today on the Sauna Talk bench, we visit with Anya and Dan Bondarenko from the Banya House. Dan is Latvian, with Ukrainian family heritage. Anya is 100% Ukrainian. Her town has been completely destroyed from the Putin invasion. Anya is a nutritionist, with a focus on plant medicine.

We gather in their outdoor backyard sauna….. er.. banya. The Banya House, Prior Lake, Minnesota. The design, size, and structure is comparable to the 612 Sauna Society Sauna, a sauna that I had a big hand in building. So, I was very comfortable in the Banya House. The heat is kick ass, as is the spiritual patina, as is the fabulous Latvian style pirtis venik treatment.

In this episode, we learn the difference between sauna and banya. The answer? Spoiler alert: it’s not that different! That said, we detail the nuances. And the difference lies within the two biggest measures of hot room climate: temperature and humidity. Where some orthodox sauna preachers claim the importance of tall ceilings and the löyly pocket, we get a very different approach of good hot room climate with Dan and Anya.

Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us. And with banya, we bring nature into the banya. Nature plays a big part in Slavic banya. Essences, teas, vennik / whisks are all front forward with banya climate and culture.

Today on the sauna bench we sit with Brian who is perhaps the most researched yet least experienced sauna aficionado in the world.

Connecting through consulting services

One of the things I do in the world of sauna is offer consultation services. I don’t offer this service to make money, but more to help others realize their authentic sauna dreams. And the other reason is that though I do love to help, my entire day may get sucked up by answering questions and helping guide.

I get to meet some great people through SaunaTimes consultations. And today you will hear from one of them: Brian from Austin, Texas (last name withheld as he is on witness relocation program).

Brian and I had a SaunaTimes consultation session. Then he came back with several additional sauna questions. And many of them were what I call “400 level thinking.” These consultations are often like tennis for me, where the harder the ball gets hit in my court, the harder I hit it back in the client’s court. I found myself engaged in long volleys with Brian. The more he researched, the more engaged I became with our dialogue.

Which way the sauna wind blows

Bob Dylan rightfully says that “you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.” For when we feel good heat, it’s all over. So why should we listen to a guy who has done nothing but research about sauna, without much sitting on the sauna bench? Well, I’ll tell you why. Brian’s approach to his own backyard sauna is fresh. He has an uncanny ability to process information from multiple sources. Brian applies data points without prejudice. He can smell BS and can sift through pedantic chatter. Brian is a weatherman who has figured out which way the sauna wind blows.

We dive into the holy trinity of good sauna (heat, steam, ventilation). You’ll hear about his evolution from barrel saunas to kit saunas. How he graduated away from a custom sauna build in his backyard, and also away from hiring a local contractor in his area. You’ll hear about his conclusions of ceiling height and ventilation. All spot on, my opinion. My 35 year 3x a weak multiple sauna build with my own hands experienced opinion.

Our texts and emails went on and on

Most people come to me after experiencing good sauna, and then are compelled to make it happen for themselves. Not Brian. Brian is admittedly very sauna inexperienced. But I dare say that he is one of the most researched sauna person I know. He attacked the project of his own backyard sauna with vigor and inexhaustible energy. I think you’ll find his conclusions and choice for his own backyard sauna very interesting.

We got to sauna recently during my own trip to Austin Texas, where I was on my own version of witness relocation program. A lot of good things come out of conversation on the sauna bench. I’m happy to report that this conversation is one of them. I’m pleased to present to you Brian, the world’s most research least experienced sauna nut in the world.

Final note, as of this podcast, Brian is now becoming more experienced. He’s just taking delivery of his own backyard sauna, and is about to lose himself in his own thermal goodness. Three cheers to Brian, Thanks man, I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and playing sauna tennis!

Sauna Talk: Kirk Jensen is a host of a thousand saunas (and more). Kirk is one of the lead hosts at the 612 Sauna Society sauna, Minneapolis Minnesota USA.

This episode may be especially interesting for those considering starting a sauna business. Or for those who have attended a “butts on the bench public sauna” and want to know more about how sauna host manages the comings and goings of sauna guests.

This episode was recorded in January 2023 from the Sauna Village, Malcolm Yards, Minneapolis Minnesota, as part of the Great Northern Festival. It was a cold well below freezing day outside. As the Saunapreneurs began firing up their sauna stoves outside, inside we were able to sit down and visit with Shaelyn and her brother Justus, and then David Dragseth, CEO of Superior Saunas.

The history and brain child of a Sauna Village in Minneapolis goes back quite a few years. Subject for another podcast for another day, but in summary, the serendipity meeting of minds of Rod & JP from Stokeyard Outfitters, connecting with Eddie through commercial development, sharing the sauna heat with his wife Kate Nordstrom, the Executive and Artistic director of The Great Northern.

During this episode, we learn about the idea, creation, and build of the Superior Sauna by the brother and sister team of Shaelyn and Justus Crutchery. Like so many sauna builds, this one was more than just a sauna build, it also fostered as a rebuilding of a special brother sister bond.

The sauna was sponsored by David Dragseth, former Lutheran paster and now Superior Sauna CEO.

I'll keep this introduction short, and I encourage you to check out the photos of the Superior Sauna event sauna here on SaunaTimes. Three wood stoves, a swing, some great design with clear consciousness towards to the holy trinity of good sauna: heat, steam, ventilation.

Today on Sauna Talk, we are pleased to welcome Bruce Oreck, who joins us from his off grid home in Baja Mexico. During this episode, we talk about sauna, Finnish sauna, and his experiences being hosted and welcomed by Finns all over the country. As US Ambassador to Finland during the Obama administration, his tenure was unique in that he served for a long period, from 2009 – 2015, which he says with a wink “was made possible because when they called from Washington looking for me, I told my secretary to tell them that I was out of my office.”

While in Finland, Bruce became enamored with all things sauna, and especially the smoke sauna (savusauna) the traditional, revered style of sauna going back centuries., where the fire is open inside the sauna building, heating rocks directly for hours. Let’s hear from Bruce as we share his love for Finland and good sauna.

 

This is such a great episode!

Bruce is very well spoken, as you can imagine. He lets us in behind the curtain as to what US ambassadorship is all about. He shares from an American perspective what it’s like to live in Finland.

I have lost count with the number of people who have gotten into sauna, really good authentic sauna, from their time in Finland.

Today on Sauna Talk, we are joined by several different summer guests to my island cabin sauna in Northern Minnesota. This episode features guests from literally all over the world who have all found themselves on my sauna bench which I co built in 1996 and is still humming along strong.

The sauna is 3.5 hours North of Minneapolis, MN close to the Boundary Waters Canoe area on Lake Vermilion, one of the largest lakes in Minnesota. Stretching 26 miles East to West, our cabin sits on the largest of 365 islands, Pine Island. There are no roads or cars on 7 mile long Pine Island, but there are some hiking trails, and one of my fondest memories and routines of sauna on Pine Island is to fire up my sauna stove, then take an island hike, in nature, returning to pull the coals forward and maybe toss a sauna log on the stove.

For many, this is where the resonating wonderfulness of sauna shines. In nature, detached from the business of day to day. Birds chirping, water lapping along the shore, long twilight evenings that transition slowly. When the thought of tossing another log on the sauna stove isn’t a question, but something you just do (after pulling the coals forward). This is where and when we get full appreciation of the fact that Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us.

• Alex & John. “I’ve been coming here my whole life… Wood fired and great heat is what I love.”
• Becca & Garrett Lamppa. “My dad welded all the Kuuma stoves out of Lamppa Manufacturing until about 2017.” “Finnish culture is very close to home.”
• Bill & Ingrid. “The fist thing we did is start planning for our backyard sauna.” “We are enjoying our sauna and still working on our sauna.”
• Lee Sarkela. “My memory of sauna goes back to splashing in the bucket on the floor as a young child.”
• Petri Leivonen & Mike Tuttle.
• Scott Gallis & Family from Brazil. “Where you are at is where you are able to enjoy it the most. In sauna, friendships are forget. People are able to get on the same vibration and welcome peace.”

A lot has happened with Lasse Eriksen, 2.0, from our first Sauna Talk just a little over two years ago.

This meeting took place on the beach in front of Farris Bad resort, south of Oslo, Norway.

FarrisBad

Here Lasse is the Development Manager for this top notch resort set along the shore of Norweigen’s majestic coastline. Development Manager means that Lasse is given a lot of reign to help steward sauna (bastu in Norwegian) as both a noun – the place we go, as well as the verb – the thing we do inside the hot room.

And for the verb, guests are treated to aufguss, and all its glory. Upon check in, guests are welcome to grab an updated flyer, which lists all the saunas on property, as well as a schedule of the aufguss events for that week.

Lasse Eriksen’s background

As you will hear in this interview: Lasse’s aim is true. We know that sauna is wonderful for our wellbeing. And Lasse is deeply committed to sharing and promoting it. In addition to Development Manager for FarrisBad, Lasse is board member of the International Sauna Association, and the Norwegian Sauna Association. Lasse is Vice President of Aufguss WM, a kindred spirit to many of us, and I’m pleased to say a great friend of mine.

I love this guy. Maybe i’m getting to be a soft in my grey hair age, but Lasse had me in tears a couple of times. I feel his passion, and I hope you do too.. I’m pleased to present Lasse Eriksen, to Sauna Talk!

Today’s Sauna Talk podcast episode is with Lewis Jenkinson, who shares with us his heart and soul of good sauna. Today on the bench we welcome Lewis Jenkinson from the absolute midpoint of England, just North of Manchester. With the rise in interest of sauna – real sauna – (not lightbulbs, toaster ovens, or other minimally ventilated fragmentations), it’s interesting to learn how others have become impassioned with and driven towards advancing the authentic sauna experience in their lives.

It’s a simple formula, really. And In Lewis’ case, his drive towards authentic sauna was propelled through his resonating positivity of contrast therapy. We’ll hear his journey while marshal arts training, then cold immersion therapy, and onto the sauna bench. Lewis’s unfulfilling sauna experience at the gym sauna, heated by a toaster oven with 9 rocks and terrible ventilation, has driven him deep into the depths of discovery into the authentic, quality sauna experience.

Many of us curious enough can become knowledgeable about good sauna and are in clear understanding of the Holy Trinity of good sauna (heat, steam, ventilation). And Lewis is right there with us, a kindred spirit of good heat.

Sauna Talk topics for discussion
Trip to Germany – oh boy this way incredible. We get to hear about his Therma Erding, the World’s largest spa, just outside Munich, Germany.

History with Sauna, getting hooked and mental wellbeing – started martial arts, diet and exercise. Moved on to cold water and breathing, finally discovered sauna. All my adult life has unknowingly been searching for powerful ways to reduce symptoms of stress, anxiety and Insomnia. I was later diagnosed with Aspergers and ADHD which made total sense.

Cedar Sauna Company – Knew I needed my own sauna so started a mobile sauna company to share with the UK but then began to import and build barrels from Russia. Realized not to rely on imports and studied sauna construction. Company enquiries are flooding in and the company is going from strength to strength quite rapidly.

Sauna in the UK – the scene is growing quickly. There is a huge rise in mobile sauna businesses and I manage a What’s App group with my friend which was created to help mobile sauna entrepreneurs set up and run their own business through sharing information with other businesses owners. In true British fashion, the UK seems to be moulding it’s own sauna culture taken from cultures all over the world including Russian, Finnish, Estonian, Lithuanian and German styles.

What is good heat – manageable and breathable. A heat which initially seems mild but creeps up on you almost imperceptibly, sending your heart rate higher and higher until you have to leave. A cold plunge is essential and the thought of which helps me to keep with the heat a little longer.

Recurring Sauna Talk questions
Mobile sauna anywhere in the world – someone already said space which would be serene but I’m gonna go with a winter riverside landscape with lots of people. Everyone would be invited to strip off and enjoy the sweat.

Sauna with anyone – my grandfather. He was a stoker for the navy so I recon he would have taken to sauna quite easily.

Favourite sauna moment – cold plunge, before or after. This is where the world goes quiet for me. My normally racing thoughts go quiet and it feels like pure serenity. Sauna helps me to spend longer meditating in the cold.

What is most misunderstood about sauna – that it is intense. It shouldn’t be. It should feel as relaxing as a warm bath on a cold day.

Today on Sauna Talk, we meet with photographer George Cory, who is documenting the British sauna movement. George Cory is reporting in from Folkestone on the Southeast Coast of England. He is a current master’s student studying photography and is an avid sauna enthusiast.

We catch up with George in his hometown in Great Britain. He is one of the first photographers in the UK to immerse himself in this emerging culture and has so far documented the owners, builders, and users of authentic saunas in the UK. Reflecting the passion of those involved, George takes the opportunity to express the importance of sauna culture. He shares in imagery and dedication how these values are being adopted in Britain.

During our visit, you’ll get to hear from George about the exhibition of his photo project ‘Löyly Life’ in his hometown of Folkestone from Monday 15th – Saturday 20th August. The exhibition will also be the launch for a small run of books created that feature the project. The book includes foreword from sauna owner Sam Glyn-Jones and Q&A with Heartwood Saunas founder Olly Davey.

British Air offers several non stop flights from North America to Britain, but if you can’t make it to the exhibition but would like to secure a copy of the book, please message George on Instagram @georgecory_ . The photo books are priced at £15 (free shipping unless international)!

Greetings from Sompasauna in Helsinki. Today we visit with Yana who takes us through her deep connection to sauna, from Aufguss at the large public saunas in Germany, to the Danish Sauna Association, and now with her employment with Studio Puisto, a Helsinki based architectural firm that focuses on sustainable hospitality and sauna design. Here we have a look at their new commercial sauna project Saunaravintola, Northeast of Tampere, Finland.

Sompasauna

To be able to Sauna Talk is one thing, and to be able to Sauna Talk on the bench is another. And today, it was a treat to be Sauna Talk with Yana by the shores of the brackish Baltic Sea at Sompasauna, the world’s only free public sauna open to all at any time day or night.

Sauna Aid

Yana shares with us the origins of Sauna-Aid, and her involvement with the initiative. The brainchild behind it, and the relationship with the organizations like the International Sauna Association.*

Yana introduced herself to me at this year’s World Sauna Forum in Tampere, Finland, along with Heikki Riitahuhta, Partner with Studio Puisto. We later met up for sauna in Helsinki. Hearing her story compelled me to bring out the recorder, and share her love and passion with you. Yana is part of a young generation of sauna enthusiasts. And, like many of us, Yana is motivated to more than just enjoy time on the sauna bench.

Sauna-Aid Participating organizations:

Japan Sauna Spa Association, Lithuanian Bath Academy, Association of Professional Bathmasters, British Sauna Society, Finnish Sauna Society, Polish Sauna Society, German Sauna Association, Norwegian Sauna Society, Danish Sauna Association, Finnish Embassy in Poland, North American Sauna Society, Swedish Sauna Academy, New Zealand Sauna Society, The Australian Sweat Bathing Association, Finnland-Institut Berlin, Austrian Sauna Society, and the Czech Sauna Association.  (More organizations to follow.)

Today on the bench we hear from several guests attending Sauna Days 2022 at Larsmont Cottages. What a great time we had, sharing our collective and individual passions about sauna. We came from all over, but are united in spirit! Let’s here from:

1. Katy, Sisu & Löyly, Grand Rapids, MN. Who has a sauna by the Lake Superior shoreline, build and converted from an old Fish House on site.

2. Eric, Voyageur Saunas. A big fan of the sauna tribe, and sauna builder from Twin Cities, Minnesota.

3. Dan from the The Banya House in Burnsville, Minnesota.

4. Alex from Bsaunas USA. He initially won the Eric Conover Sauna Magic book. as he traveled all the way from Buffalo, NY.

5. Keegan Kittock, Deep Wave Sauna. Building saunas for several years. Meeting new people who share the same passions, with like minded people.

6. Justin, Cedar & Stone Nordic Sauna. “Our world right now is starving for connection… Almost every single time, sauna is the best way to relieve stress.” New people who have never heard about sauna are coming to sauna. We are drawing on tradition. We get to create together and be part of a community.” In Duluth, access to trails are only 1/4 mile away. Nature is right next to us in 218. Justin doesn’t own and run a sauna company, he owns and runs a stress destroying company.

7. Meinrad Signer saunameinrat.com. Manitoba. Sauna rental or group sauna guide. We are living in a climate very similar to Finland and the Baltic states. A lot of his customers are Russian born.

8. Tom Carlson, a Sauna Map Champion from Madison Wisconsin.

9. Darin Mays, Urban Wing Co. Sauna confessions. I’d be in the hot room, and Darin in the cool down room, during Covid. Urban Wing sells patented designed sauna vents. Sleek, clear cedar. Part of a morning dip Sunrise dip into Lake Superior. We adapted the Mindstrong Harvey 5/15.

10. Nick from Arizona. Surprised his wife that Sauna Days is his gift for his wife for Mother’s Day.

11. Andrea and Art, unwind-body-mind.com Spa wellness center in Wisconsin. “Sauna brings what is real.” More meaning and connection. We can serve a lot of people with sauna.

12. Beau, Ben from Hayward, Wisconsin. Beau is starting a sauna rental and sales business in Hayward, WI.

13. Jean, up for the community and experience. Bringing friends in, like Kate. “when you love something, you bring it to the one’s you love.”

Let’s go Sauna!

Dr. Jonathan Bricker is a Professor of Public Health Science at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center and University of Washington in Seattle.

A recipient of over $25 million dollars in research funding, and author of over 110 scientific publications, Dr. Bricker’s research focuses on developing and testing health habits that prevent cancer. He has been enjoying sauna since his first exposure in 1991 as an exchange student in Oulu, Finland.

He now enjoys his backyard sauna which he constructed with his family and friends.

It’s always a great treat to Sauna Talk on the sauna bench, as opposed to via Zoom, as was the case with many previous episodes during Corona. But today, Jonathan and I were able to sweat it out together in my Minneapolis backyard sauna. As you will hear, Jonathan was in town to visit a studio film set to record a master class on how to quit smoking.

In the SaunaTimes post introducing this podcast episode, you’ll find a link to Jonathan’s Bricker’s 2014 Ted Talk entitled “The Secret to Self Control” which, by the way, has over 7 million views. We discuss “willingness” and its association and application to sauna and contrast therapy.

Why are there no saunas in elderly homes?”

“I work with infrared, but it is more of a treatment… Infrared is not connected to the Norwegian culture of badstu (sauna).”

Today on Sauna Talk, we visit with Lasse Erikson, reporting in from the outskirts of Oslo, Norway. Lasse is a Sweat enthusiast with a mission to bring more sauna and sweat experiences to the world. He is head of Norges Badstulaug, a Board member of International Sauna Association, and VP Aufguss WM group.

Aufguss:

“We are story tellers. That’s who we are.” Listen to the steam. Feeling it.

These are some of the tasks in which he loves to contribute.

“The feeling I get with wood fired (sauna) is so much deeper than any kind of heat I’ve every experienced. I feel human when I get out of a wood fired sauna.”

Today on the sauna bench, we are joined by Mindstrong Harvey, founder, CEO, of The Mindstrong Project.

Many of us may not have heard of the Mindstrong Project, but if you were a pro athlete talking about performance, breath work, contrast therapy, sauna, Wim Hof, or any combination of any of these, I can pretty much guarantee you that you would be well tuned to Harvey Martin and the Mindstrong Project.

The thing is, Harvey is very humble and low key about his practice and his company. He, like many of my friends for some odd reason, fall into more of the camp of witness relocation program, vs. major social media marketers. And I can’t speak for my other friends on the witness relocation program, but Mindstrong Harvey has good reason to be low key. The work he does with pro athletes is by reputation only.

Harvey Martin’s marketing is mainly his reputation

And by extension, his marketing is defined by the proven performance measures from his clients. In a world where literally, every second counts, and where the slightest margin, the smallest incremental improvement in performance can mean playing in front of tens of thousands of people or sitting on the bench, from being signed to a big contract or relegated to the taxi squad, from being hero to .. i’m still trying… well, I don’t know what your day job is, but to operate with that kind of pressure must require the upmost tuning, both mentally and physically.

Pro athlete performance and wellbeing is the space where Mindstrong Harvey operates.

Brick and Mortar – tree and lake location

The Mindstrong Training the highest performing athletes in the world in nature. A training system outdoors. Physical movement, yoga, training, cold, sauna. “Wherever I go, sauna will be a part of my life.” Minnesota is way colder.

Witness relocation program

When you train professional athletes, they are on a level of celebrity. They have financial freedom and they are young. They don’t have an opportunity to experience the build up. They go from 0 to 1 right away. Mindstrong Harvey is there to guide them. He has earned this level of respect within the small family of professional athletes. The athletes share Mindstrong Harvey with other athletes.

A professional athlete lives so against nature. They travel, they fly, and when you can give them the most natural training environment, they appreciate simple systems. The connection with nature. Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us.

A deep respect with Nature. Nature is the only system that can bring us to our own personal truth.

Body adapting to the cold

If you burn fuel too much, you become an emotionally reactive human. Limbic part of your brain The front of our brain, the pre frontal cortex is the rational part of our brain. n the cold, we are breathing less and Living in the front of our brains.

You are training your physiology to train your psychology.

Please welcome Alex Blyashuk to the Sauna Talk podcast. Though sauna in Belarus is quite popular, Alex, a native of Belarus, didn’t grow up with sauna (or banya as it is called in his home country) but discovered the Russian style sauna experience through several road trips from his hometown in Buffalo, NY up to Toronto, Canada. Alex and his buddies would pack up their car, often on Fridays, head over the Peace Bridge, through Fort Erie, Ontario and up the QE Parkway to experience the heat, steam, and venik treatment action at a public banya in Toronto.

Alex’s experiences at the Russian Banya in Toronto were formative. In our chat, you’ll hear more about the venik treatments, their relaxations between hot room sessions, and how they’d try to stay awake driving back from Toronto to Buffalo afterwards.

Alex’s mobile sauna

Alex constructed his first mobile sauna, in Eastern Europe tradition. Here we have a modified barrel concept where, instead of round, the walls are vertical, giving the interior space a more conventional feel, while at the same time rolling steam and “demassing the hot room” as many pros like to call it.

During our chat, you will hear how deeply these banya experiences affected him. So much so, in fact, that Alex has pivoted his career to sauna full time.

Alex is especially impassioned towards the venik steam tradition. To the unfamiliar, venik treatment involves administering an elaborate whisking procedure on a guest, as the lay on their back, and then rotating onto their front (or vice versa) while they lay on the sauna bench. My 88 year old mother partook in it as well. She was blown away by her venik treatment.

Our venik treatment

I have had venik treatments before, but never to this level. Alex is a pro, from start to finish. The venik treatment involves steam from the sauna stove, hot and cold water, some essences like eucalyptus (from the leaves themselves, never oils), and the key: several different whisks, which are bound branches of supple tree limbs of different species.

The Venik treatment is different than the Finnish vahta primarily in that the Finns most often use the birch whisk on themselves, casually, while sitting on the bench. Sure, one may offer to wack a friend a few times, but nothing like what happens with “Dr. Alex” as his “patient” lies flat on the hot room bench. It’s all trust, as Dr. Alex orchestrates the process. Steam, heat, ventilation.. a maestro of sensations. Dr Alex at the controls.

First place

This past summer, Alex traveled to Russia to compete in an international tournament for venik treatment instructors. He took first place in the amateur division. Master Kazan!

The experience was other worldly. Alex was an expert in the process. He is completely tuned into the different species of tree limbs to create different veniks (or whisks), as well as bringing in the essences from nature, in a well thought out choreographed process. In this episode, you will get to know the features of the different tree species. Their qualities and nuances.

Three’s the charm

I had many “take aways” from my venik treatment and our Sauna Talk podcast. One of them is how draining the treatment is for the giver. It’s easy to lay flat on the sauna bench and take it, but it’s another thing to stand in the hot room and administer the action. A sauna master is whipping around the veniks in the heat. Heart racing, blood pumping, sweat pouring. Often, Alex tells us, it’s good to have three people on the program. One flat on the bench, one standing, administering, and another outside, on the on deck circle, waiting for a tag team from his partner, to hand off the wisks to the next guy.

For many of us, sitting on the sauna bench is enough. For others, in the Latvian Pirts tradition, laying down on the bench and submitting to Alex’s correographed venik treatment may be, as my Mom said, “just what the doctor ordered.”

Please welcome Alex Blyashuk to Sauna Talk!

Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome a random, spontaneous, non rehearsed or edited collection of Finns, talking about sauna.

I didn’t make a big deal about this interview process. I simply approached a few Finns on the street today, in Helsinki. I didn’t stick my microphone in people’s faces, but tried to be respectful in approaching a few people who didn’t seem to be hurried, or appeared to have an idle minute or two in their day. I’m happy to say that every guest I approached was kind and respectful to me. As you will hear, all were very open with me about talking about sauna and their life with sauna.

Last time in Finland, in 2109, I interviewed 12 guests for Sauna Talk, all in one way shape or form connected to sauna. We had Jasper the Finnish actor and owner of löyly spa, We had Sauna Timo, and Kimmo Helistö, owner of two public saunas in Helsinki, and Jesse from Narvi, the folks from Harvia, Dr Jari Laukkanen, Satu and Carita from Sauna from Finland, just to name a few.

Yet today, I’m warmed to bring you the voice and straight up Sauna Talk from these random guests.

The intent of these interviews is to help share with you what sauna… authentic sauna… means to the people in Finland, the motherland of sauna.

As sauna becomes more and more popular, I think and hope you agree that the integrity of sauna is becoming more and more important. The Finns, by nature, are understated and polite. Many have no idea how their word and tradition – sauna – is being adopted and dare I say “manipulated” for commerce, profit, and marginalization.

So, the Finns are pure with their sauna practice. With over 3 million saunas in a land of 5 million people, Finns need not have to look over their shoulder with concern about any compromise to sauna. For example, a Finn would simply not relate to a sign saying “don’t throw water on the rocks” or a marketing ploy to purchase a quote “infrared sauna” because the marginalization of the authentic does not exist here. What does exist in Finland is the ubiquity of fucking great sauna. And super nice people who share the love and appreciation of the practice.

It’s been said that the worst sauna in Finland is better than the best sauna in most other countries. This may be true, but what is true are the following words from Finns.

Welcome to Finland.

Welcome to sauna. Real sauna. Authentic sauna.

Today on the bench we welcome Jon Sabes to Sauna Talk. Jon is a successful entrepreneur, founding multiple companies in the health and insurance industries. Jon is a high performing athlete, completing several marathons and triathlons, events that just thinking about their rigor makes me want to hit the “no thanks” button and take the short tour to the sauna bench and cold plunge, and hear about the pain later.

Foxo Technologies During our chat, we learn more about his current company, Foxo Technologies and their work in the scientific field of epigenetics. Epigenetics is cutting edge science that studies how our genes express due to lifestyle and environmental exposures.  Jon’s using molecular level analysis and technology to change an insurance industry…and improve the health of its customers for the better! 
Knowing how and why genes express healthy or unhealthy outcomes is going to empower people to make better lifestyle choices to extend their healthy longevity. Hormesis

What’s interesting, and not surprising, is that many/most of the leaders and scientists in the field of longevity are into sauna, and hot/cold therapy. Dr. David Sinclair, author of Lifespan, is one example. He digs sauna, just like Jon, you, and me.

As it turns out, Hormesis, and the body stressors from temperature extremes, thermogenesis, is one of the impactful ways we can strengthen the healthy expression of our DNA – think of it like exercising your cells at a molecular level. Trigger our cellular muscles with sauna and cold, impacts our DNA expression in very positive ways.

The Sauna Research Institute

We talk briefly about the Sauna Research Institute and the early work in which SRI is engaged. Studies are in development. And Jon, as a Sauna Research Institute founding board member, will be helping advance research that will help us better understand why siting on the bench in our kick ass saunas, then immersing ourselves in cold water, followed by cool downs in Nature, then chilling out with a smile on our faces, and feeling so fucking awesome, has such a powerful impact on our health and wellbeing.
We know why good sauna is good for us, and it is going to be very interesting to get a better understanding as to why.

The Sabes Sauna

Though he has built a very successful life for he and his family, Jon is also a deep thinker and philosopher. He keeps himself grounded, centered, and down to earth. He is deeply in tune to nature. 

I am including a few photos from his Minneapolis, MN sauna. This one of several saunas in Jon’s portfolio sits along the shores of his Lake Minnetonka property. We will look to share some photos of his other saunas, down the road. For now, here’s The Sabes Sauna in action:

The sauna building journey

Jon shares with us more about the sauna building journey, how he and I collaborated to design what guests and sauna aficionados are calling “one of the nicest saunas in North America.” Jon smiles shyly with the compliment, yet takes more pleasure in its use, than its comparative ranking. As Mikkel Aaland is known to say: “the nicest saunas are the ones that get used,” I say that good heat is universal. It knows no difference of income or tax bracket.

To sauna with Jon, you will experience him diving off his dock, after some pull ups between rounds, then returning from his lake cold plunge in a deep, calm, meditative stage, relaxing in any one of several chill out zones either finding himself outside the hot room, on the deck or the dock, or the zen garden to the left, or common area to the right of the sauna building.

Snacks between rounds

On a side note, Jon’s sauna sessions are of duration familiar to many of us: at least a couple hours. During the times I have sauna’ed with him at his Lake Minnetonka sauna, Jon will bring down from his main house an assortment of fresh fruit, apples, grapes, and a wedge of cheese and some pretzel snacks. What’s crazy is that this is the exact combo I often engage for my sauna sessions. There’s something fitting about this combination. A few light grazing bites between rounds,  as we drink our mineral water, kombucha or a cold beer is a nice sauna compliment. Highly recommended! For more sauna culinary tips, please note here.

I am especially pleased how during our Sauna Talk episode, Jon was able to outline a few guiding principles for the design of his sauna. And Finally, as you will hear, Jon boldly proclaims what sauna means to him: “sauna will always be an important part of my life.”

Can you relate?

Please welcome Jon Sabes to Sauna Talk.

Today on the sauna talk bench we are joined by Stew and his sons David and Kyle Wilson, from the Homecraft sauna heater family.

Who is Homecraft? Homecraft is one of Canada’s longest running sauna manufacturers, this multigenerational, family-owned business has steadily grown in the shadows of towering old-growth cedar trees outside Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

We gather on my sauna bench, the three of them lined up for interrogation as I manage the steam and the microphone from down low. Yes, those in the sauna industry from Canada are well aware that the Wilson’s are polite straight shooters from Canada, but these virtues come forth loud and clear during this episode on the sauna bench. As I throw water and make steam, there is little room for anything but clarity and transparency.

So, we are the beneficiaries. We learn about sauna culture in Canada, the history of this family company, and what good sauna means to Stew, David, and Kyle.

No matter what the product, it could be a couch, or a pen, or a bar of soap, more and more of us are interested in learning more about the people behind the product. And this is true also for electric sauna heaters. How a sauna heater preforms is critically important. How is the steam? Is there someone in North America to support the product after the sale? Are the elements going to fail? And if so, will I be pulling apart 300 rocks to replace an element in six months? These are the kind of questions we are asking ourselves.

And yet, there’s another line of thought that goes into our electric sauna heater purchase decision. Who are these people? Some may be influenced by authoritarian foreign accents. But, beyond the sauna cognition theory, we may not be fully sure who is making our sauna heater. Is it Jens assembling the sauna heater, or Xinchong’s young teenage daughter assembling the sauna heater? And how far did this box have to travel before coming to our front steps? Well, in the case of Homecraft electric saunas, you’ll be hearing directly from the people behind the product.

And what’s cool is that Kyle, the younger son, like David from Superior Saunas, has a pastoral background. Who better to sit on the sauna bench with than someone who has a spiritual connection to sauna? Stew’s younger son, another David, is a licensed electrician, having run his own company for 10 years. Who better to have your electrician call with a screwdriver in their hands than David at Homecraft?

So, this is what we get with the guys at Homecraft. Practically designed and manufactured by and for electricians. And spiritually designed and manufactured for spiritualists.

We get into the weeds about the mechanics of electric sauna heaters. And I think you’ll find as we listen through, I am the one to get nerdy. And the Wilson guys are the ones to keep it light. Those that know me, know my dedication towards good sauna. I’ve had a rocky road the last couple of years navigating towards both good products AND good people in this space. Like Lamppa Manufacturing in Tower, Minnesota, I am pleased to introduce you to Homecraft from BC Canada.

Again, it’s the people AND the product.. and when it comes to Homecraft, you’ve found both. So, please welcome, David, Stew, and Kyle Wilson to Sauna Talk.

Hi John, welcome to saunatimes. I thought I’d start by having you share how and when you first got started with the WHM and cold water exposure.

Most of my life I’ve had a terrible relationship to the cold. I hated cold water and if it dropped below 60F I would bundle up like I was preparing for an Arctic adventure. In 2013, when a friend let me know about a Wim Hof workshop that was being held in Austin, all I saw was a picture of Wim sitting in a barrel of ice and though “No way!! Why would I pay money to go sit in ice water?!” My resistance was strong enough, however, that it made me curious, and I signed up. Those first two ice baths with Wim that weekend were miserable, but life-changing.

The big issue with living in central Texas – a sub-tropical climate – is that cold water is not readily available. It wasn’t until 3 years later after experiencing two years of brutal insomnia that I found the amazing benefits of a regular cold water practice. After spending thousands of dollars on various insomnia treatments from many different kinds of approaches and modalities – none of which provided any lasting benefit – a friend who is a Wim Hof Method instructor suggested that I try cold water immersion before bed.

I bought a hundred pound of ice, filled up my bathtub, and got the best night’s sleep I’d had in two years. I did that three more times before realizing that hauling ice was going to get expensive and take a lot of time. That’s what motivated me to look into other ways to get cold water.

What did your early cold plunge set up look like?

My cold plunge has been through a number of evolutions through the years. The very first thing I did after ice baths was buy a Whirlpool 15 cubic foot chest freezer and fill it with water. That was great until three days later I opened it up and discovered a few rivers of rust pouring out of the seams. 

The ice chest freezer for cold plunge, why is it such a “winner” for DIY cold plunge enthusiasts?

People love DIY for a few different reasons. For many who don’t have the budget to buy a commercially made cold plunge, the DIY route is financially motivated.  A basic setup with a used chest freezer can be created for less than a few hundred dollars. Even a very well equipped high-end chest freezer setup can cost less – in some cases *way* less, than half of the commercially made models.   

Let’s talk about your Chest Freezer Cold Plunge book, how did that come about? 

After having a number of problems and issues with my chest freezer cold plunge experiments and finally getting it dialed in, I wanted to start a group where we could talk about various issues and brainstorm ideas. It only took a month or two before I noticed many people asking the same basic questions. So I wrote a FAQ. That expanded pretty quickly to 13 pages, and I still felt like it wasn’t detailed enough, so I decided to write a book. Editor’s note: Link to John’s book is here.

You have helped many others adapt their chest freezer for cold plunge, including the starting of your Facebook group. How did that start and how is that going?

When I started learning about converting a chest freezer into a cold plunge, there were maybe 30,000 people in the Wim Hof Method Facebook group, but only a few posts about chest freezers. And most of those posts were “Hey I did this!” but lacking “How I did this.” The posts were also hard to keep track of and follow with all of the other content being posted.

I had a sense that a separate group to discuss making a cold plunge from a chest freezer would be helpful. I asked one of the Wim Hof group admins if he would be OK with me starting a separate group. He said yes, and let me post a couple of messages about it. It grew from there.

“Contrast therapy” is a big thing. Please comment on sauna AND cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly, or 1+1=3? I love hot tubs and saunas. As I mentioned, I hated the cold for most of my life. When I was looking for apartments, my # 1 criteria after location was “Does it have a hot tub!” The last apartment I lived in for four years had a sauna, and I thought I was in heaven.

I don’t have one where I live now, but have experienced contrast therapy at a few resorts, spas, and natural springs that I have been to over the years. One of my goals is to add a sauna at home. I’ve read some of the research and know that the benefits are awesome. Contrast therapy provides a huge metabolic workout. I suspect that it is not a matter of either hot or cold, rather one of both hot and cold. I know cold by itself has tremendous benefits. Adding a sauna to that practice seems to have an exponential benefit. After reading Dr. Rhonda Patrick’s papers on heat shock and cold shock, I’m a believer in the value of both.

Editor’s note: further reading: with cold plunge and sauna, 1+1=3.

I’m pleased to present my second Sauna Talk podcast interview with Daryl Lamppa. Who is Daryl Lamppa? A third generation sauna stove builder, born and bread in Tower, Minnesota. 100% Finn, and married to a Finn, Cheryl. After marriage, as a young man, Daryl and his father in law built their newlywed house, and milled lumber for the build from Norway pines on their property. Daryl and Cheryl have lived in this house their entire lives. She a former schoolteacher in town, and he a welder of the Vapor Fire wood burning home furnace and Kuuma wood burning sauna stove. I am pretty sure that Daryl is one of the leading living experts in wood burning technology. And I will put money on it, that nobody alive has spent more time researching and analyzing wood burning technology than Daryl Lamppa.

First time I met Daryl Lamppa

Over thirty years, recently moved to the area. Interested in building my first sauna, to replicate the awesome experience I had rebuilding a cottage on the Baltic Archipelago. Birch and Flounder, peel and boil potatoes.

Walked into his shop, did all is own welding back then. I got into into sauna building in large part part because of the Kuuma stove. Thanks to the Kuuma I was able to finally experience the quality of heat that I knew so well from my time on the Baltic.

Fast forward to our second Sauna Talk podcast interview.

Meeting up with Daryl Lamppa

There I was in my fishing boat, heading for my visit with my friend and wood burning sauna devotee Daryl Lamppa. About midway across Big Bay, the irony of the moment hit me. Here in the Northland of Minnesota, it has been an unseasonably hot and dry summer. Forest fires in Canada and super warm calm weather had created a gloomy hazy hot atmosphere for my boat ride. The smell of smoke was strong., and here I was, heading to meet one of the world’s premier experts on clean burning wood.

As I tied up to Daryl’s dock, I couldn’t help but take notice of his custom dock frame. Nobody builds a dock like this, I thought. The welds were uniform and clean. The dock frame design was criss crossed and laid out perfectly spaced. This was a hand made dock of shiny stainless steel. The dock could have been five years old or 55 years old. Nobody builds docks like this. Well nobody except Daryl Lamppa.

Daryl’s sauna and homestead

Daryl greets me from his back door, and we head over to his sauna. Part of the purpose of my visit is to develop a plan for fixing up the Lamppa homestead sauna. The Cobbler’s kid’s shoes syndrome is in full effect as the sauna is a neglected relic from the 1930s, maybe earlier. Toys for the grandkids are stored in the cool down room. “This was the sauna for the resort that used to be here that was part of this land when we bought it.” We talk through our plan on how to remove the old hand built beast of a stove, and what to do about the original wall paneling and benches. “We can take apart the benches and just flip over the boards. Maybe sand them a bit.”

We turn our attention to his house. I’m pretty sure it’s the house he and his wife Cheryl moved into when they were married. Daryl and his father in law built the house, by hand, using lumber milled from the trees taken from the property. And we are talking big Norways and White Pine. Daryl is all Finnish. All matter of fact. Simple short sentences that tell a story. “He was a tree cutter. We took down these trees ourselves. We had lumber milled from these big trees. It was a lot of work.”

Next I’m drawn to his woodpile, two woodpiles, actually. One neat stack left and right, guarding his driveway. Each pile is stacked perfectly. “That’s 5 cords each. We heat our house all winter with 5 cords. Pointing to the left: “I’ll bring all this down to the basement in the fall. And this over here, well, i just stacked this pile a few weeks ago. These are for next winter.”

“Birch is the best.” He tells me, and of course, I’m nodding in agreement. “I want about 20% moisture. The heat is in the gasses. Wood that’s too dry doesn’t produce as much heat.”

Off to the old factory

We hop in Daryl’s pickup truck. “Nice truck” I say. “It’s from 2003, and has 23,000 miles on it. I only drive it to the shop and back, and maybe church, that’s about it.” I ask him if his truck has ever been to Minneapolis: “No.” The original Lamppa Manufacturing building sits in a residential neighborhood just a couple blocks off Main Street, Tower, Minnesota. (Population 500). Daryl’s Father ran the family milk distribution company out of this building originally. Then it moved over to full time sauna stove building in 1974.

The building sits virtually empty now, as the entire operation has moved across town. The items in the building today are very few. There’s a clock on the wall (circa 1974), and an old radio (circa 1974) that Daryl turns on by plugging it in. Two chairs are positioned about 6 feet away from Daryl’s most recent Kuuma, and he has been working in secret and solitude on improving the burning efficiency and method of his Kuuma sauna stove. This one looks like any other other Kuuma, but Daryl is deep into the testing of this one. He takes only a couple sentences to warm up to me, knowing how much I love Sauna Talk, and wood burning technology, particularly. And Daryl is comfortable here, in his old factory, where he has spent most his life welding, cutting, and constructing thousands of Kuumas. I know most who own a Kuuma would get a chuckle on “how could you make a Kuuma any better?” But that’s Daryl. A life long dedication to his craft.

I am overjoyed to call Daryl Lamppa my friend. And before I turn it over to this interview, three things.

First, Daryl’s son Garrett has recently left his post as Hospitality Director at the area casino resort in town to come over as Director of Operations, full time, as fourth generation sauna stove builder. You’ll hear what Daryl thinks of his son’s transition to the family business (a very Finnish answer!). For me, I am overjoyed that Lamppa Manufacturing is in great position to remain 100% family owned and operated. A big credit for helping shore up Lamppa Manufacturing is Operations Manager Dale Horahan. Dale, as good fate would have it, moved to the area with his wife about 10 years ago, with an idea of retirement.

At that time, Garrett showed not much interest in the business, and Dale was thinking of selling out. The company just couldn’t make money, and, frankly, the hard manual business of making stoves was taking its toll on Daryl’s knees and spirit. Dale has spent his career in manufacturing and building businesses. Dale and Daryl met a few times with an idea towards Dale taking over Lamppa Manufacturing. Dale, though, had higher aspirations and, like me, felt a higher spirit towards Lamppa Manufacturing. Dale’s list of contributions to helping Lamppa Manufacturing are too long to list here. He helped transition the company from the old building to a new building, streamlined operations, hired more quality help, and countless other critical contributions, without which Lamppa Manufacturing may not have made it to the solid enterprise that it is today.

The second piece I’d like to share is that, in full disclosure, I am a reseller of the Kuuma stove. My title for the company is Director of Sales. It is not a full time position, nor do I want it to be. I don’t want to tax the company with a salary or expense. Like Dale, my devotion is to help grow Lamppa Manufacturing as a healthy, family owned company. A good employer in the community, and the producer of the most kick ass sauna stove in the world.

In that spirit, the third thing I’d like to share, to send off this introduction, are a few comments from a recent Facebook post.

Today on Sauna Talk, we’re pleased to welcome Lassi A. Liikkanen, author of “The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design”. The book is just now being released, end of April 2021.

We start our conversation in a good place, with Lassi’s early beginnings of sauna (before he could walk). And we transition into the definition of sauna, which for listeners new to sauna, is a great place for understanding.

We layout what is a sauna from a design perspective. For example, the sauna heater is usually visible, and a center point of the sauna.

We talk about how in this time of remote work, many are using their home saunas as offices. There is usually a sauna in most apartments in Finland, and traditionally, saunas in apartments and homes are one room usually operated as primary function, just a couple hours a few times a week. The rest of the time it is sitting still. They have natural bench systems, ideal for sitting and home offices.

The small integrated sauna. In apartments. Nothing under 30 square feet. We discuss the 50 square foot sauna, either 7×7 or 8×6 as a “good size” for most use case. During our Sauna Talk: Lassi A. Liikkanen, author of “The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design”, divides his book into four sections. He calls it:

The Four-Leaf Clover Model of Great Sauna Design:
1. heat
2. air quality
3. interior design
4. culture & company

The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design
The unified definition of sauna. It would be great if those things that aren’t sauna could be called something different than sauna, to help clear up misconceptions about the practice as well as the reported health benefits.

Let’s welcome Eero Kipi to Sauna Talk! President of North American Sauna Society.

The time we are living is very exciting. More and more people are becoming interested in and aware of the authentic sauna practice. In this episode, we get an understanding from Eero about his upbringing with sauna. And this experience is most likely not much different from most all Finns. A country of “more saunas than cars” and a country where many start taking saunas before they are old enough to start walking.

Eero understands good sauna.

The North America Sauna Society was founded in 2004.

Sauna bathing is a very well regulated process with no regulation.

Sauna Talk global series continues. Today we welcome Sauna Sherpa to Sauna Talk. His real name is Kimmo Raitio, but he’s known around many of the many saunas in Finland as Sauna Sherpa. He is a Sauna Sherpa guide to Finnish sauna.

Like many Finns, (all Finns?) Kimmo grew up with sauna. Like many Finns (all Finns?) Kimmo takes good heat seriously, and welcomes those interested in learning more about sauna with a clear and open mind and discussion. And this is what you will hear in this episode.

More and more tourists and business travelers were coming to Finland with a keen interest to experience the Finnish sauna. And so Kimmo began taking people around to different saunas in his homeland. This was how the concept of Sauna Sherpa came about. The global pandemic has put a hold on Sauna Sherpa, but the love for an appreciation of good sauna is still very much deep in his bones.

Sauna Sherpa guide to Finnish sauna

In this episode, we hear interesting antidotes of the Finnish sauna. When asked about what makes a good sauna, Kimmo, answers in succinctly Finnish style (very few words).

1. Ventilation
2. Heat
3. Steam (humidity).We touch upon the nudity in sauna subject, and how it is in Finland, compared to Germany, Great Britain, and the United States.

We discuss the rebound of the public sauna, as it is in Finland paralleling many parts of the World.

The connection between Japan and Finland.

Drinking beer, and the ethos of being healthy and happy with sauna.

On this episode of Sauna Talk, we are able to visit with Dr. Zestcott about a current study under way regarding sauna mental health studies for the Sauna Research Institute. This is a survey based study analyzing the mental health benefits to sauna. The link to the sauna mental health studies work is here.

It’s particularly interesting to learn how Colin has a keen experience and understanding of what we know of as “good sauna.” The real sauna with good heat and proper cool downs which can include a range of coldness including a lake swim, cold plunge, snow angels, a bucket of water over ones’ head. Colin is reporting in from Duluth Minnesota where he teaches at the College of St. Scholastica, a place where a high of one degree above zero Fahrenheit is not uncommon.

research surrounding sauna mental health studies

We learn about the budding tree of scientific mental health studies. How survey based work follows certain protocols. We discuss how sauna can potentially be applied to help people in areas such as anxiety and PTSD. We draw upon some work that has taken place with the Native American Sweatlodge and veterans. Much more can be done with global in broad ranging collaboration.

I’m doing my best to get the word out on this study as the more participants involved means more sound data to build upon for the study as well as next phase of research.

So, I hope you are able to respond to the request for participants for this study. The email address is saunastudy@gmail.com .

Please welcome to Sauna Talk Dr. Colin Zestcott.

The Sauna Talk global cross continent series continues

We are pleased to welcome Mika Meskanen and his partner Wendy Liu to this joint podcast. We are publishing this episode on Sauna Talk as well as on their new podcast. Mika and Wendy are fresh on the beginnings of their enterprise entitled: Saunawave where they look to be “hosting meetings with remarkable heat seekers and embark on secret journeys to explore the new wave of global sauna culture”. As a designer and an architect they are also keen to craft sauna experiences that are both innovative and true to tradition.

This conversation happened via tele computer, late 2020. Glenn close to his Minneapolis backyard sauna and Mika and Wendy from their London home.

A great visit, where Mika and Wendy were inquisitive about the American sauna culture and environment. Here, we talk about the Sauna Belt in the US, which compares only to the bible belt, rust belt, and other belts mentioned by Mika, only in comparative context that they are belts.

We discuss how the best saunas are the ones that get used

Mika is founder of the British Sauna Society. He and Wendy are a couple who have helped bring a growing and enthusiastic group of British sauna enthusiasts together. Mika by all rights should fill out a waiver form. As he is a Finn living in Great Britain, he has an inside track as to what good sauna means as it is surely in his DNA. Yet who better to lead the charge of the British Sauna Society. Wendy is a fearless and open-minded sauna explorer as well as a front-page ice free diver. Mika and Wendy are kind and thoughtful. They are kindred spirits. They understand and value the depth sauna. The soul of sauna, the goodness behind good sauna, and the sanctity of sauna. Authentic sauna.

We are pleased to welcome Travis Skinner to Sauna Talk!

We’ve been following Travis’ work since 2017, starting with his Snail Shell sauna project. This sauna build project is a creative nod to the Fibonacci Sequence, one of the most famous formulas in mathematics. In this episode you’ll hear from Travis about the origins of this sauna, using a yurt frame as a foundation for building this sauna.

And let’s not forget the Steam Roller sauna. Here is a link that describes and illustrates the Steam Roller sauna build project. A really unique shape. A canted wall that helps draw and roll the steam in the hot room.

Then, it’s on to the Angler Fish sauna project. We wrote this sauna build project in 2018.

And now we get to hear from the creator, designer and builder: Travis Skinner.

We’ll learn about the “stacking function of sauna.” Where sauna can be multi function, multi purpose.

Travis has a key interest in collaboration. Coming together with other artisans to craft as much as possible with their hands.

“Working with hand tools allow us to feel the materials we work with” explains Travis.

On a side note, my interview with Travis reminded me of some of the most resonating aspects to sauna design and building. The right brain conceptualizing. Travis stays far away from what could be called “tradesmen dogma”. There is no “you should do this” or “don’t do that” with Travis and sauna building. Rules, rigidity, and fear are not a part of Travis’ mindset.

Travis’ approach was so timely and refreshing to me. As I look to help others with their own sauna building projects, many are easy tripped up and entangled with fear based push backs from tradesmen: thermal bridging, moisture trapping, off gassing and other terms hidden as “advice”. You’d like to think that professional builders are really out to help people, but often they appear to want to pound their chests to the casual amateur sauna builder. Is it fear, insecurity, stubbornness? Who knows, but what we do know is that Travis exudes none of this.

Travis is an artist in all the best sense of the word. He is as happy working with metal as he is with wood. He respects the origins of his material and is hyper conscious throughout his entire plan and build process.

We catch up with Travis outside of his tiny house in Bellingham Bay, close to Canada in Washington State.To keep up with Travis and his creations, please visit him at www.100handed.org. Instagram @pairoducks

Season 4 of Sauna Talk in the time of corona has been produced, like most all podcasts, via Zoom and teleconferencing. Yet this episode breaks that mold, where two people are gathered, once again, on the sauna bench to, er… sauna talk. Both Max and Glenn have been under pretty strict distancing: Glenn returning from 5 months on his island in Northeast Minnesota and Max running a tight ship, with his wife due in December with their third child. (eg. no messing around).

So, this episode is a return to Sauna Talk on the bench

Max comes to sauna, banya as its called back in his native land of Belarus, through a life long tradition and experience.

“When I say 95 out of 100 of Belarusians go to sauna – I mean 95% of my friends and family that I know in Belarus go to sauna regularly.”

This is the culture of sweat bathing in Belarus.

Баня (Banya) is the Russian word for sauna; Лазьня (Laznya) is the Belarusian word for sauna, but most of the people who live in Belarus use word banya since they speak Russian as their first language. 

Banya in Belarus is a way to get clean. Belarus is a country where the government shuts off hot water from time to time. Belarus is a country with not as developed plumbing infrastructure. Belarus is a country that is fucked up right now. Bad politics. Belarus is a country where people are beaten for protesting the system. People lose their jobs for speaking out. People disappear, and are never heard from again.

Belarus is a country of great people, with a fucked up Government

Max is committed to help support people in his homeland. Max is committed to build a mobile banya to help get people together. Mainly people from his country who have emigrated to Minnesota. Max and a lot of his friends who live in the US buy groceries for people in Belarus who lost their jobs due to their pro-democratic political beliefs and raise money to help people in Belarus in need. 

Saunatimes is helping Max.

This podcast introduces you to the wonderfulness of banya as something positive and galvanizing. In the wake of a lot of bullshit at home, Max stays positive and hopeful, thanks to his positive outlook and supported by the endorphin rushing through the authentic sauna/banya experience.

As we celebrate the 10 year anniversary of sauna book “The Opposite of Cold”, we are pleased to visit with author Mike Nordskog, Mike was close to between sauna rounds at his home in Southwest Wisconsin. Glenn was Zoomed up from his island lake cabin in Northeast Minnesota.The sauna building journey vs. destination

The iterative process of sauna building allows us to create a sauna that works for us, individually.

The story behind “the Opposite of Cold”

A resurgence and interest in authentic sauna, particularly in the Upper Midwest.

DIY

Finnish carpentry to do the details – window molding and attention to detail.

Finnish immigrants, more saunas per mile than in Finland, Cotton, or Toivola, Carlton County.

What is authentic sauna?

Water in the hot room. Not just on the rocks, but ideally a room that you can bathe in there.

Ritual aspect that take time.

Common sense design principles, eg. two tiers of benches where the upper bench is close to the ceiling, otherwise you are leaving a lot of heat on the table.

The law of löyly – sitting on the upper bench, your feet are at the height of the sauna rocks.

Perfect Sweat

A symposium of sauna enthusiasts at Archimedes Banya. Invited by Mikkel Aaland. Authors and journalists, people from all over the world joining together in San Francisco in 2014.

Sauna is a pretty intimate thing. “you guys go over and use it for a couple rounds.” An intimate space where you are close to people.

Sweating, your body is going through a stressor and inducing a discharge.

Sauna is a resurgence but in places like Northern Minnesota, it was never lost.

The rhythm of sauna

The opposite of cold. The building allows you to counteract the harshness of winter. The counterpoint of cold.

Savusauna has their own peril. The smoke sauna is hard to maintain and keep active.

In the evening to prime your appetite and set up a good night’s sleep.

Harnessing the courage for the cold plunge.

Completely perfectly in the moment during the equilibrium moment after cold plunge.

What is most misunderstood about sauna?

You can use at your own level of comfort.

The intent of the book: to get the authenticities of sauna on record.

As we look back upon Sauna Days 2024, walking from one sauna to the next, pretty much all of us were comfortably numb.

About 200 guest converged for the fourth Sauna Days event at Larsmont Cottages, North of Duluth, Minnesota, this past weekend. Some came from near, and many came from far. All were able to enjoy the multitude of saunas, speakers, nature, and locally crafted food, beverages, and live entertainment.\

The recipe for a comfortably numb sauna gathering is much like a basic chocolate chip cookie recipe. We don’t need too many ingredients to make something scrumptious.

The foundation for Sauna Days 2024 was 12 mobile saunas and one lämpömassa enriched brick and mortar sauna. Then, sprinkle in various food tents, strategically located hydration stations. Add a pinch of LMNT hydration packets (flavors of choice) and a curation of interesting speakers. Finally, as icing on the cake, infinity cold plunge access into the world’s largest freshwater lake.

Familiar faces

A good number of the 200 plus Sauna Days 2024 attendees were repeat vendors and offenders. Familiar faces helped foster countless spontaneous re-connections either on the bench, by one of fire pits, at the bar, on the rocks, or in the lake. “So great to see you again!” And they meant it. “Is this your second or third Sauna Days?”

The spontaneous gatherings were akin to traveling from stage to stage at an outdoor music festival. Then, bumping into familar faces from year’s past. And, like attending a music festival with great bands and few yahoos, at Sauna Days, everyone knew the lyrics. Songs include: keep sandals outside the saunas, help fill up the löyly buckets, ask who is ready for steam before throwing water on the rocks, and by all means, close the sauna door.

Far and wide

As sauna becomes more popular, Sauna Days continues to draw people from places beyond the Great Lakes sauna belt region. I found myself on the bench with a couple who came all the way from the Yukon Territory. Other Canadians included Kyle Wilson, Homecraft Saunas, and his wife from Vancouver BC. We had guests from Salt Lake City, Oregon, Northern and Southern California, Florida. And yet none of these participants received the Furthest Traveled Award. That accolade was awarded to Jake Newport from Finnmark saunas. A close second went to Mika & Wendy from the British Sauna Society. The three represented the UK well, proucly wearing their signature British Blue robes as sauna uniforms.

Speaker’s corner

The Brits added some great flavor to the Sauna Days speaker series. Jake Newport shared a slide of a map of Great Britain, showing 100 dots around the British coastline, representing the number of mobile sauna activations there. “Pretty much every beach around the coastline now has a public sauna.” We breathed along with Nick Fox, Learned about Sauna and Sobriety, gleaned insight into the future and scale of Therme Group’s wellbeing oasis’s (bigger than Yankee Stadium!) with President Robbie Hammond.

The Steam Masters

Many were quietly sharing that a highlight experience for Sauna Days 2024 was getting wacked around by one of the three Steam Masters. The three administered venik treatments in either the Steam Lodge or Deep Wave Sauna’s Black Night sauna. We were blessed to have three steam masters lead rounds of venik treatments. Dan from The Banya House, California Alex, and B Alex from BSaunas in Buffalo, NY.

In addition to Sauna Days being the first weekend of May, the Steam Masters introduced us to a sister event first weekend of October: Banya Fest at a stately church camp just outside Minneapolis/St. Paul. A highlight of the weekend was learning more about the ancient practice of Eastern European banya and venik treatments, documented as a Sauna Days presentation and a soon to be released Sauna Talk podcast.

Sauna in nature

As wonderful as it was to experience multiple saunas scattered throughout the grounds at Larsmont Cottages, once again, nature seems to provide us with the best amenity. Larsmont Cottages is set along the shores of Lake Superior. Sauna Days guests were treated to rosy red skyline sunsets, night skies bursting with stars, and even a Hawaii-esque rainbow, as we celebrated a passing shower in the later afternoon sun.

Northern Minnesota sauna is always enjoyed in nature. Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us. And no bigger than within Sauna Days 2024 at Larsmont Cottages, Two Harbors, Minnesota.

Cold & Heat

It’s interesting how many come to appreciate sauna from the cold, and conversely how many come to appreciate the cold from sauna. Whichever the point of introduction, Jesse and I agree that with cold plunge and sauna, 1+1=3. You’ll hear from Jesse why this is. We will hear about his personal journey towards the powerful goodness of breath work and cold exposure.

For most all Finns and sauna owners in Nordic regions of Europe and similar climates in North America, we refer to a few sauna round and a jump into a nICE cold lake just something you do. The practice is built into the rhythm of the day. “I’m going to cut the grass then go sauna.” Or “the sauna will be hot around 5pm, come on by.”

Contrast Therapy

Yet for athletes looking for an edge, or folks stressed out, or others with a varied list of mental and physical problems, we are seeing some serious positivity with “contrast therapy.”

Jesse’s Bio

Jesse Coomer is an author, professional breathworker, cold training expert, certified Wim Hof Method instructor, personal trainer and a Professor of English at Vincennes University, Indiana. He’s also a voice of practicality in the world of breathwork and cold exposure on his YouTube channel, Midwestern Method. 

On a personal note, Jesse and I share a timeline. We each first learned about Wim Hof back in 2015. We each followed our own path into the Wim Hof Method and all its goodness. You can hear my interview with Wim on this same Sauna Talk podcast. Jesse was one of the first handful of certified Wim Hof instructors in the US. His passion for living well through breath work and cold exposure comes through in this interview.

Jesse has two ebooks available: A Practical Guide to Breath Work, And A Practical Guide to Cold Training. Well worth it for those of us interested in diving deeper into the cold and goodness.

So, let’s welcome Jesse Coomer to Sauna Talk!

Anyone lucky enough to have a hard copy of Mikkel Aaland’s 1978 book Sweat can page through his journey into the various sweat bathing practices and traditions from all over the World.

Throughout his book, we enter with Mikkel into a Mayan Temescal, a Russian Banya, a Japanese Mushu-buru, a Native American Sweatlodge, and of course a Finnish sauna, amongst other cultural sweat tradition practices. Throughout his global journey, Mikkel gained an understanding of the common human experience. The communal experience and the experience of getting clean, and in my words, the ability to feel and say “aaaahhh” when water is tossed on hot rocks to create steam.

As a young world traveler, Mikkel put it all together. He was able to connect the dots of these different “sweat” practices, and has helped us come to the realization that we, as humans, share a special bond of sweat practices, and we aren’t really all that different as a species.

Fast forward to 2019, and Mikkel was deep into another form of world travel. He and film crew began revisiting these places and sweat traditions around the world for his documentary called Perfect Sweat. The documentary is currently in edit mode and has been halted by corona with a couple episodes still to go.

We have the pleasure to visit with Mikkel in his homeland, Norway, at his homestead, outside on his deck, overlooking a majestic river and source of his cold plunges between sauna rounds. Though Mikkel and family live in San Francisco, he has had the good fortune of being able to spend his summers in Norway. During this “crazy year of 2020” he was able to squeeze his way out of the US and over to Norway, once again.

We will hear about how being in lockdown at home during corona was a safety hazard. We’ll hear about Mikkel’s daily routine, which includes healing, hiking and sauna.

Only someone of Mikkel’s background and perspective is able to share a very clear picture where we are at relative to the current pandemic and how it relates to gathering and sweating on a sauna bench. There is something in our history that is quite relevant, and I’m pleased to be able to share with you Mikkel’s observations and parallels during this interview.

Mikkel Aaland is our first returning guest to Sauna Talk. We have had “the iceman” Wim Hof on Sauna Talk. We’ve had the seminal sauna researcher Jari Laukkanen on Sauna Talk. We’ve had author Scott Carney and the backyard acrobat Steve Freidricks on Sauna Talk.

And now, for the second time, I am pleased to introduce Mikkel Aaland, our guest for this episode of Sauna Talk.

Today on the bench, we hear from kindred spirits from across the big pond: Jake and Max Newport. As testament to our mutual love of authentic sauna, though this episode has been in the works for month, it was put together within minutes.

I sent Jake an email, heard back right away, and we jumped on a Zoom call. We got right into the chatter, as mutual lovers of good sauna tend to do, and so it was easy to hit record and just make it happen.

Doers vs. dreamers

We hear the origins of Finnmark Sauna, from their first experience of Finnish sauna, to building a wood fired sauna in their family backyard, to the origins of their sauna business, Finnmark Sauna.

Jake and Max are busy guys, helping customers all over Great Britain with their desire to own their own saunas.

Dr. Mathew Walker Why We Sleep

Could infrared cabin marketing hucksters be committing a cultural crime?

Sauna is an experience to be enjoyed. There is an ethos in Great Britain that “the medicine should taste foul” and with exercise, “it must be painful to be good.” But with sauna, when we listen to our body, we tap into what wellness is all about. And really great sauna feels awesome.

Sauna is not about forcing pain upon yourself.

I first learned of Scott Carney as he was writing his 2016 book, What Doesn’t Kill Us, the story of Scott being commissioned by Playboy Magazine to write an article debunking the cold water deep breathing “iceman” Wim Hof. Scott went to Wim’s training center in Poland. His intention was to get into the depths of Wim’s cold water immersion therapy and deep breathing methods, to reveal the cracks and fallacies of the practice. And this was Scott’s specialty. He was on the heels of his 2015 book The Enlightenment Trap, (then entitled under the title A Death on Diamond Mountain). The book explores the cult like practices of adaptive, Americanized versions of Eastern religions. How guru’s in the US try to capitalize on “enlightenment” for their own finances and fame.

For Scott Carney, a journalist and anthropologist who lived in India for six years, debunking myths is his specialty.

Debunking Wim Hof

So, back to those days at the Wim Hof training center in Poland, I can imagine Scott’s bullshit detector on high. He immersed himself with other guests who were paying money to learn the Wim Hof Method, under the direction and guidance of Wim himself. Deep breathing sessions followed by cold water immersions, and hiking up the nearby mountain wearing minimal clothing.

Yet during Scott’s time with Wim, sitting with Wim on his sauna bench, something unexpected and remarkable took place. Scott became a convert to the practice and the benefits of the Wim Hof Method. Not a “hmm, this is interesting” type benefit, but some deep profound improvement in mental clarity, physical endurance, and overall a “getting high on his own supply” as Wim says. Happy, Healthy, Strong.

So, Scott’s Playboy Assignment morphed into the book “What Doesn’t Kill Us.” The critic became the convert. And the Foreward to the book is written by Wim himself.

I started doing the Wim Hof Method myself, back around that time, in 2015. It is such a natural extension to what we love: sauna and then cold plunging. It all just made sense to me. For decades, I would do push ups on my dock in the morning, then dive deep and long into our cool Northern Minnesota lake, finding great meditative calm along the bottom of the lake, often just suspended down along the depths, as a big fish would do, in no hurry to come to the surface. This was my own Wim Hof Method before I heard of Wim Hof.

Close encounters with Wim Hof

What Doesn’t Kill Us treats us to intimate one on one connections with Wim, the crazy mastermind with several endurance world records yet arguably best known for beating back the flu like effects from being injected with an endotoxin, at a research hospital in Holland, all through power of the mind: deep breathing exercises that help us control our autonomic nervous system, a feat that up until then, medical science insisted could not be possible. What’s even more significant is that after the scientists wrote off the feat as Wim being a freak of nature, Wim himself trained a group of people not familiar with his method for only a few days. Then, this group was also injected with the endotoxin, and they all beat back the flu symptoms, just like Wim himself.

This study was remarkable. As Wim says, “it has changed modern science forever” and you can read more about it in Scott Carney’s book. Also, the book ends with Scott hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, the tallest peak in Africa, with Wim and others. I won’t spoil it except to say that Scott and Wim make it to the top. It is a crazy adventure, extremely well written and funny.

Scott’s recent work

Then, I recently heard Scott being interviewed by my friend Mindstrong Harvey on his podcast. Scott is great to listen to. He’s got such a depth of knowledge and tells really clear, interesting stories to support his knowledge, without sounding pedantic or cocky in any way. He is interesting and interested. As a journalist, he is naturally curious. Needless to say, I’d like to hang out more with Scott Carney.

Scott is happy to talk about his new book The Wedge and in this episode we dive deep into parts of his new book.

The wedge, simply defined, is the space between stimulus and response. We sauna lovers know all about the Wedge. When we toss water on the rocks and feel that heavy blast of löyly, we don’t rush for the sauna door but we close our eyes and take it in. In Finland, it is polite to shut up during this time. Actually, in Finland, it’s probably polite to shut up most times, but when we create a wedge between stimulus – the blast of steam, and response – rushing out of the room, as we know, this is when magic happens.

And same for the cool down. When we exit the hot room and immerse ourself in ice cold water, the conditioned response is to yelp like a cocker spaniel and resist the cold. But we sauna enthusiasts have reprogrammed ourselves to embrace this feeling. We listen to our core, not our skin. “Thank you brain for telling me to get out of this cold water. We understand that we, as humans, are conditioned to resist and activate a flight response when we feel ice cold water, but we are on a different path now. We are embracing this cold water as part of the wonderfulness of sauna therapy.”

The Wedge

Instead of all this chatter, now we have a simple word for this internal monologue: The Wedge.

We talk about the chapter in his book called “Red Line” where he and his wife go to Latvia for a long sauna ritual, and we talk about other examples in the book that help us understand the power of the Wedge. Scott is one of us. He owns his own sauna, and is often found chilling out between rounds outside his own backyard sauna retreat. If you’re like me, you’ll be nodding your head up and down page after page while reading the Wedge. Scott has a way of saying what we feel, and have felt for a long time.

When we become under stress is when we are most human.

Regarding hot/cold therapy: It’s like lifting weights for our vascular system.

Especially nice to hear Scott’s impressions of what is most misunderstood about sauna. Often, sauna is viewed as a post work out regimen. A sense of community is what is missing. We don’t have to take sauna so seriously. We can have fun with sauna.

I am super pleased to bring you this episode of Sauna Talk. Please welcome Scott Carney.