Explore every episode of the podcast Safe As Podcast

How do we set realistic and effective human performance expectations in our barrier approaches?In part 1 we looked at definitions of controls and barriers, whereas in part 2 we explored a deeper dive into their applications and escalation factors.This episode unpacks a few key sources to explore critical human factors and human performance considerations for barrier / control systems.Website & Articles: https://safetyinsights.orgSubscribe to the series for Part 4.Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

Today I interview Dr Marcin Nazaruk, who shares his practical experience and research on learning from normal work / daily work, HOP / New View / Safety-II, to improve learning and risk management.The discussion also explores themes around risk controls, work constraints, risk assessments, and error traps.Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

How do we translate a paper barrier system into one that's functional and verified as effective?Whereas part 1 looked at key definitions of control, barrier, safeguard, support, and verification activity - this episode dives deeper into the use of such frameworks.In particular, we unpack escalation / degradation / erosion factors, and the necessary support mechanisms to ensure controls work as intended, when intended.Key sources analysed in this episode:International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM) – Critical Control Management FrameworkThe Chartered Institute of Ergonomics & Human Factors (CIEHF) – Human Factors in Barrier ManagementConstruction Safety Research Alliance (CSRA) & Professor Matthew HallowellPetroleum Safety Authority (PSA) NorwayResources & Links:Website & Articles: https://safetyinsights.orgSubscribe to the series for Parts 3, and 4.Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

Part 2 of our interview with Dr. Guido Carim Junior, Associate Professor of Aviation, pilot, researcher, and safety scientist. We pick up the conversation with digital checklists, examining the potential role of AI and how "smart" features risk narrowing human decision-making rather than supporting it.Guido shares critical thoughts on the line between genuine organizational resilience and workarounds that mask underlying brittleness. We discuss the "tragedy of adaptability" and potential blind spots within Safety-II and HOP when organizations over-rely on human adaptation instead of fixing flawed systems.We also cover how to surface informal practices for learning without turning them into rigid, bureaucratic rules, and why safety audits need to look past green-checking compliance documents to tune into weak signals and daily operational reality.Please Like, Subscribe and Share. Also check out my blog at https://SafetyInsights.OrgSupport the channel here: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

Is that a control, barrier, safeguard, support, or verification activity? Is it an object, a human act, a system or just a procedure? Does it actually address the hazardous energy, or does it sound good on paper?If we label every single checklist and administrative task a "critical control," do we risk diluting the operational focus required to prevent high-consequence events? If everything is critical, nothing is.Part 1 of this 4-part series unpacks how these terms are used (and misused) across the industry, evaluating the baseline definitions that dictate how we manage risk.Key sources analysed in this episode:International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM) – Critical Control Management FrameworkThe Chartered Institute of Ergonomics & Human Factors (CIEHF) – Human Factors in Barrier ManagementConstruction Safety Research Alliance (CSRA) & Professor Matthew HallowellPetroleum Safety Authority (PSA) NorwayResources & Links:Website & Articles: https://safetyinsights.orgSubscribe to the series for Parts 2, 3, and 4.Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

Interview with Guido part 1

When you're standing on the front line making an operational call, risk doesn't come with a green or red light. You have to make a binary decision: stop or go.We don't necessarily make it easy for our decision-makers to make good, defendable decisions.This video unpacks Andrew Hopkins’ 2011 Safety Science article, "Risk Management & Rule Compliance: Decision-making in hazardous industries". Hopkins argues that choosing between risk management and rule compliance is a false choice - they're complementary, not contradictory.Because risk sits on a continuum but decisions require a definitive line in the sand, high-hazard industries must translate broad risk management principles into clear operational rules for the sharp end.What is covered:a. Why risk management and rule compliance must co-exist and complement each other.b. Why frontline workers need clear "do it or don't" thresholds rather than numerical risk criteria.c. Goal, Process, and Action Rulesd. Why risk assessments can be more 'legitimation rituals'Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

On April 15, 2010, BP CEO Tony Hayward reassured shareholders that the company was safer and more efficient than ever. Five days later, the Deepwater Horizon disaster happened. This video unpacks a study that evaluated CEO speeches and how rhetoric and slogans can be disconnected with actual behaviour and resourcing.It explores how relentless cost-cutting and corporate rhetoric set the stage for catastrophe.Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

In 1994, two US Air force F15 fighters shot down two friendly US Army Black Hawk helicopters.This event shouldn't have been possible: there were experts, radio communications, radar, AWACS and more.However, this isn't a tragedy due to human error or a lack of safeguards, it happened in spite of the safeguards.This episode unpacks a few findings from the seminal book from Scott Snook called 'Friendly Fire'. We’ll explore how "Practical Drift" - the slow, invisible uncoupling of local practice from centralised procedure, turned a routine mission into a catastrophe. This book is a masterclass in what can happen when our Work-as-Imagined has little to do with the reality of Work-as-Done on the frontline.Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinson

Can our safety reporting and indicators mask signals that organizations are drifting to major accident?This episode unpacks two reports from O'Neill and colleagues looking at the pitfalls of safety reporting measures, and also explores weaknesses in annual safety reports - particularly how reports may be 'safewashing'.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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This ep unpacks two articles from Andrew Hopkins, exploring the similarities between the Gretley and Moura mine disasters.Namely, Hopkins argues that a 'culture of denial' existed at both mines, and probably exists across large, high-risk organisations, too. This culture of denial involved a series of beliefs that dismissed warning signs of danger.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Our mental shortcuts (heuristics) serve us well. They help us navigate a complex, ambiguous world normally safely and efficiently.

But in modern organisations, they can sometimes lead us astray - via biases.

In this context biases are systematic distortions away from an expected decision or judgement.

This article, with Daniel Kahneman and colleagues, unpack some ways to help debias critical decisions.

In their words: "Dangerous biases can creep into every strategic choice. Here's how to find them--before they lead you astray".

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Is 'Safety Culture' a nebulous construct, or even a myth, that obscures more than it reveals?

Or is its persistence because it provides a useful vehicle for explaining phenomena in organisations and groups?

This episode unpacks several articles (at least 10), from authors like Borys, Guldenmund, Schein, Silbey, Hopkins, Cooper and more, to unpack safety culture from both an interpretative and functionalist perspective.

The episode covers common critiques from the research, proposed links with areas of performance, and some lingering ambiguity.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Leadership walkarounds seem simple on paper: get a leader to walk around, talk with some people, and then bounce out with a gleeful smile, and warm hearts.But is it that simple? Do walkarounds improve any measures of teams or organisations? Do they improve safety climate, engagement, or even safety incidents?Support the channel: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinsonToday's episode explores these questions with these sources:1. Foster, M., Mha, B. S., & Mazur, L. (2023). Impact of leadership walkarounds on operational, cultural and clinical outcomes: a systematic review. BMJ Open Quality, 12(4), e002284.2. Thomas EJ, Sexton JB, Neilands TB, et al. Correction: the effect of executive walk rounds on nurse safety climate attitudes: A randomized trial of clinical units [Isrctn85147255]. BMC Health Serv Res 2005; 5.3. Shaw KN, Lavelle J, Crescenzo K, et al. Creating unit-based patient safety walk-rounds in a pediatric emergency Department. Clinical Pediatric Emergency Medicine 2006; 7:231–7.4. Purvis S, Kennedy GD, Knobloch MJ, et al. Incorporation of leadership rounds in CAUTI prevention efforts. J Nurs Care Qual 2017; 32:318–23.5. Luria, G., & Morag, I. (2012). Safety management by walking around (SMBWA): A safety intervention program based on both peer and manager participation. Accident Analysis & Prevention, 45, 248-257.6. Rotteau, L., Shojania, K. G., & Webster, F. (2014). ‘I think we should just listen and get out’: a qualitative exploration of views and experiences of Patient Safety Walkrounds. BMJ quality & safety, 23(10), 823-829.7. Singer SJ, Tucker AL. The evolving literature on safety Walkrounds: emerging themes and practical messages. BMJ Qual Saf 2014; 23:789–800.

Does using AI make us smarter, or just more confident?This ep covers a recent study on how generative AI affects our "metacognition" - our ability to judge our own performance. Researchers tracked hundreds of people solving logical reasoning problems with and without AI.They found: a) AI improved scores, but people overestimated their results even more, b) people who knew more about AI were less accurate judging their own work, c) the Dunning-Kruger effect disappeared, where everybody becomes equally overconfidentRef: “AI Makes You Smarter, But None the Wiser: The Disconnect between Performance and Metacognition” (Fernandes et al., 2026).

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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There are a lot of safety practices in industry. How do we know which are the most effective interventions to use?This systematic review of the evidence assesses the best evidence to answer this question.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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When I say BBS - what is your initial impression? A big smile and thumbs up, or visible disgust?It certainly divides people. But is that division deserved? What does the evidence say are both the pros and cons of BBS approaches?And, how can we move forward with this debate and incorporate the best of both? Or, should we?This episode references 7 articles to provide an overview and balanced discussion of BBS in contemporary organisations.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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This episode unpacks the Dreamworld Thunder Rapid ride disaster, using the Ten Pathways to Failure model.

Ref: Gregson, S., & Quinlan, M. G. (2024). Death at Dreamworld: Ten pathways to disaster and failure to learn. The Economic and Labour Relations Review, 35(2), 436-453.

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More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How can you develop better indicators targeting the effectiveness of your risk control system?This episode draws on a few sources, including the HSE UK's HSG254 and the ICMM's critical control framework, among others, outlining an approach to safety indicators that targets measuring the most important elements of your risk control systems.

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More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Re-recording of an older episode for YouTube

Does counting change what counts? If we create indicators on actions that we'd like to monitor, like injuries, profits, tendering, productivity, do we inadvertently focus on managing the numbers instead of the core issues?Source: Chang, L. W., Kirgios, E. L., Mullainathan, S., & Milkman, K. L. (2024). Does counting change what counts? Quantification fixation biases decision-making. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 121(46), e2400215121.Support the channel at: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinsonMore research at SafetyInsights.OrgOutro music "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

Seven hours before the Deepwater Horizon rig exploded, four senior executives were on-site congratulating the crew for achieving seven years without a lost-time injury. It wasn’t that these leaders ignored risk; it’s that they were systematically blinded to it by a focus on the 'wrong' metrics. In this episode, we break down Andrew Hopkins’ analysis of that final visit to explore the important distinction between personal safety and process safety. We look at why injury measures may be next to useless in preventing major disasters. This isn't a story about incompetent people or 'bad apples', but how well-intentioned leadership behaviours can quietly reinforce organizational risk blindness.Source: Hopkins, A. (2011). Management walk-arounds: Lessons from the Gulf of Mexico oil well blowout. Safety Science, 49(10), 1421-1425.Support the channel at: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinsonMore research at SafetyInsights.OrgOutro music "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

Leadership captures the headlines and conference topics worldwide, but what is the role of followers in team and organisational performance?

How can one lead, without those that follow?

Refs:

1. Leung, C., Lucas, A., Brindley, P., Anderson, S., Park, J., Vergis, A., & Gillman, L. M. (2018). Followership: a review of the literature in healthcare and beyond. Journal of critical care, 46, 99-104.

2. Hay-David, A. G. C., Herron, J. B. T., Gilling, P., & Brennan, P. A. (2022). Assertive followership: how to make a team safer. British Journal of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, 60(5), 558-562.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How well do Learning Teams compare to RCAs for the number and quality of findings? This study compares the two.

Note: Update and reupload of a previous episode, now in video format.

Ref: Robbins, T., Tipper, S., King, J., Ramachandran, S. K., Pandit, J. J., & Pandit, M. (2021). Evaluation of learning teams versus root cause analysis for incident investigation in a large United Kingdom National Health Service Hospital. Journal of Patient Safety, 17(8), e1800-e1805.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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What are the precursor factors that kill people at work? And are our investigations effectively fixing these factors?

Ref: Stockel, L. R. (2023). What Causes Accidents at Work? Workplace Serious Incident & Fatality Investigations: A Study of Precursors.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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You saw the sign, and read the words. So, apparently you understand the risk, or do you?Source: Hancock, P. A., Kaplan, A. D., MacArthur, K. R., & Szalma, J. L. (2020). How effective are warnings? A meta-analysis. Safety Science, 130, 104876.Support the channel at: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinsonMore research at SafetyInsights.OrgOutro music "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

How can we design better - as in safer, healthier, more productive shift work systems and rosters? Let's find out.

Sources:

QGN 16. Guidance Note for Fatigue Risk Management. Department of Natural Resources, Mines and Energy

Knauth, P. (1996). Designing better shift systems. Applied ergonomics, 27(1), 39-44.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Are AI models BS'ing you? Do they have such an indifference--a lack of understanding even--about the truth, that their outputs constitute BS?

Note: This is an update and recording of #33, where I rerecord interesting topics for my YouTube channel.

Source: Hicks, M. T., Humphries, J., & Slater, J. (2024). ChatGPT is bullshit. Ethics and Information Technology, 26(2), 1-10.

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More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Safety indicators, metrics, measures, KPIs...whatever.

Are these indicators used primarily for genuine learning and improvement - or more often misinterpreted and misused?Ref: Oswald, D., Zhang, R. P., Lingard, H., Pirzadeh, P., & Le, T. (2018). The use and abuse of safety indicators in construction. Engineering, construction and architectural management, 25(9), 1188-1209.Support the channel at: https://buymeacoffee.com/benhutchinsonMore research at SafetyInsights.OrgOutro music "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

This paper explores how complex systems not only fail, but succeed, and provides 9 ways that we can move beyond simplistic notions of system failure due to 'human error'.

Ref: Woods, D. D., & Cook, R. I. (2002). Nine steps to move forward from error. Cognition, technology & work, 4(2), 137-144.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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'Safety Culture' is treated by some as the holy grail of organisational safety concepts: valourised and promoted uncritically.

But should we, or even can we, analyse 'safety culture' in investigations?

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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What do we mean when we say 'human error'? Do you mean as a cause, event, or harm?

And does error language more broadly mask more underpinning human variability, and increase the risk of blame?

Sources:

1. Hollnagel, E. (2007). Human error: Trick or treat. Handbook of applied cognition, 219-238.

2. Read, G. J., Shorrock, S., Walker, G. H., & Salmon, P. M. (2021). State of science: evolving perspectives on ‘human error’. Ergonomics, 64(9), 1091-1114.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How should we plan, design and integrate human performance into our risk control and barrier systems?

This episode draws on four sources:

1. Mantom, M., Johnson, M., Pitblado, R., Cowley, C., & Krishna, K. (2017). Standardisation of Bow Tie Methodology and Terminology via a CCPS/EI Book. In Chem. E., SYMPOSIUM SERIES (No. 162).
2. Human Factors in Barrier Management: white paper (2016). Chartered Institute of Ergonomics & Human Factors.
3. McLeod, R. W. (2017). Human factors in barrier management: Hard truths and challenges. Process Safety and Environmental Protection, 110, 31-42.
4. Government of Western Australia Department of Mines, Industry Regulation and Safety (n.d.). Human factors: Integrating human factors into bowtie analyses of major accident events

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How can we motivate--or even design for--more desirable, safer decisions on health, safety and life, and disincentivise riskier decisions?

This episodes explores Gerald Wilde's four tactics of motivating safer behaviour, from his book 'Target Risk 3'.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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What factors predict the use of higher-order risk controls? This study unpacks the predictors via use of HECA (High-Energy Control Assessment).

Source: Oguz Erkal, E. D., Hallowell, M. R., Ghriss, A., & Bhandari, S. (2024). Predicting serious injury and fatality exposure using machine learning in construction projects. Journal of construction engineering and management, 150(3), 04023169.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Today we're diving into the CSRA's Safety Clutter Classification model and process of decluttering.

Source is: Decluttering Safety report, from the Construction Safety Research Alliance, 2025.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How does safety clutter--the accumulation of safety artefacts that don't contribute to operational safety--distract attention and resources from more pressing matters?

Can clutter, with best intentions, even contribute to elevated risk?

Today's paper is: Rae, A. J., Provan, D. J., Weber, D. E., & Dekker, S. W. (2018). Safety clutter: the accumulation and persistence of ‘safety’ work that does not contribute to operational safety. Policy and practice in health and safety, 16(2), 194-211.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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This quickisode jumps into the Walk-Through Talk-Through technique, used to collaborate with workers and learn about the challenges and error traps with tasks, and how to improve.

Source: Human Performance Oil & Gas. HPOG.org

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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What if the paperwork that management come to rely on, rather than providing assurance of safe work methods, is more a ritual, disconnected from real work, or how people create safety in the field?

What if, in some cases, this paperwork creates a false sense of safety and indeed, masquerades as a false butt covering exercise?

Today's source is: Borys, D. (2009). Exploring risk-awareness as a cultural approach to safety: Exposing the gap between work as imagined and work as actually performed. Safety Science Monitor, 13(2), 1-11.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How do the models of how we think about work reveal and conceal features of the work?

Today we explore varieties of human work: work-as-imagined, work-as-prescribed, work-as-disclosed, and work-as-done.

Source: Shorrock, S. (2016, December 5). The varieties of human work. Humanistic Systems.  https://humanisticsystems.com/2016/12/05/the-varieties-of-human-work/

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Imagine following a workplace fatality, that the weakest types of controls are implemented - administrative.

This episode unpacks some findings from the Brady review of Qld mining fatalities and what lessons we can apply from weak controls and repeat deaths.

Source: Brady, S. (2019). Review of all fatal accidents in Queensland mines and quarries from 2000 to 2019. Department of Natural Resources, Mines and Energy.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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How can we move beyond simple workplace hazards towards tackling risk from psychological and cultural cues in the workplace?

Today we unpack Rob Long's Workspace / Headspace / Groupspace risk semiotic to help mature our thinking.

Sources:

1. Safety Engagement with Workspace, Headspace and Groupspace. Rob Long, 2021, SafetyRisk . net

2. SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY OF RISK TOOLS (2015). Human Dymensions

3. Workspace, Headspace, Groupspace. Rob Long, Vimeo . com

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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What are the links between the magnitude of the energy within hazard exposures on subsequent injury severity and death?

Does more energy = higher chance of SIFs?

Source: Hallowell, M. R., Alexander, D., & Gambatese, J. A. (2017). Energy-based safety risk assessment: Does magnitude and intensity of energy predict injury severity?. Construction management and economics, 35(1-2), 64-77.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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This quickisode unpacks Ed Schein's concept of Humble Inquiry - said to be the "gentle art of asking instead of telling".

Source: Schein, E. H. (2013). Humble inquiry: The gentle art of asking instead of telling. Berrett-Koehler Publishers.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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What does the leadership language used by CEOs tell us about the priority and beliefs around safety and risk?

This episode unpacks a study exploring the BP CEO's speeches prior to the BP Deepwater Horizon disaster.

Source: Amernic, J., & Craig, R. (2017). CEO speeches and safety culture: British Petroleum before the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Critical perspectives on accounting, 47, 61-80.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Does blame really solve nothing...or does it have some redeeming features?

Source: van Mourik, O., Grohnert, T., & Gold, A. (2023). Mitigating work conditions that can inhibit learning from errors: Benefits of error management climate perceptions. Frontiers in Psychology, 14, 1033470.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

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Make sure to subscribe to Safe As on Spotify/Apple, and if you find it useful then please help share the news, and leave a rating and review on your podcast app.

I also have a Safe As LinkedIn group if you want to stay up to date on releases.

This quickisode explores how resilience engineering - particularly enhancing resilient skills - can improve procedures.

Source: Saurin, T. A., Wachs, P., & Costella, M. F. (2015). Exploring synergies between the design of procedures and the development of resilience skills. In Proceedings of the 6th Resilience Engineering Symposium.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

Intro/Output "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

Make sure to subscribe to Safe As on Spotify/Apple, and if you find it useful then please help share the news, and leave a rating and review on your podcast app.

I also have a Safe As LinkedIn group if you want to stay up to date on releases.

How do Critical Control programs succeed or fault and trip? And are CC observations calibrated to the actual things that kill or permanently injure people? This episode unpacks creative sentencing reports.

Article: Lefsrud, L. M., Sattari, F., Gellatly, I. R., Wasel, C., Charuvil Elizabeth, R. M., Abdolmaleki, A., ... & O’Neill, T. (2025). Final Report for Creative Sentence: Building Resilience into Safety Management Systems: Precursors and Controls to Reduce Serious Injuries and Fatalities (SIFs).

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

Intro/Output "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

Make sure to subscribe to Safe As on Spotify/Apple, and if you find it useful then please help share the news, and leave a rating and review on your podcast app.

I also have a Safe As LinkedIn group if you want to stay up to date on releases.

This episode unpacks findings from the recent Maritime NZ / Port of Auckland case, where a CEO was charged under due diligence offences.

It offers an enlightening perspective on work-as-done, night shift work, critical controls and more.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

Intro/Output "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

Make sure to subscribe to Safe As on Spotify/Apple, and if you find it useful then please help share the news, and leave a rating and review on your podcast app.

I also have a Safe As LinkedIn group if you want to stay up to date on releases.

This quickisode dives into some key human-centred design terms from the GOAT, Don Norman.

The source is: Norman, D. (2013). The design of everyday things.

More research at SafetyInsights.Org

Intro/Output "Dark Synth Wave" by ElephantGreen (PixaBay.com)

Make sure to subscribe to Safe As on Spotify/Apple, and if you find it useful then please help share the news, and leave a rating and review on your podcast app.

I also have a Safe As LinkedIn group if you want to stay up to date on releases.