Do you want your children to enjoy learning? Most parents would agree that their ultimate goal in educating their children is to create motivated life-long learners. Research shows us that motivation and excitement for learning are best achieved when learners are offered autonomy, trust, and resources that support their interests. Self-directed learning is at the heart of this educational model. In this podcast, we’ll explore ways to ignite our children’s curiosity and passion for learning through interviews with experts and families who have experienced first-hand the advantages of pursuing self-directed education.
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Blake Boles is the founder and director of Unschool Adventures and the author of Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School?, The Art of Self-Directed Learning, Better Than College, and College Without High School. He hosts the Off-Trail Learning podcast and has delivered over 75 presentations for education conferences, alternative schools, and parent groups. Blake and his work have appeared on The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, BBC Travel, Psychology Today, Fox Business, TEDx, The Huffington Post, USA Today, NPR affiliate radio, and the blogs of Wired and The Wall Street Journal.
Jenna begins by stating that as her own children move into their teen years she finds it more challenging to find meaningful learning activities that will hold their interest. This is why she is excited to talk today with her guest Blake Boles. He has spent more than a decade working with teens while hosting an ‘Unschool Adventure Camp.’ He is also the author of the following books:
He has contributed to many other publications as well.
Blake is the host of the Offtrail Learning Podcast and has given over 75 presentations to Alternative schools, educational conferences and parent groups.
He has been featured in:
The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, BBC Travel, Psychology Today, Fox Business, The Huffington Post, USA Today, NPR, and the blogs of Wired and The Wall Street Journal.
Jenna says she is excited to share Blake’s perspective on how to best support our teens quest for more autonomy and real world experiences. They will touch on mentorship and networking. Blake even shares a simple email structure that our kids can follow to connect with professionals in the fields that interest them. They also discuss the pushback that homeschoolers are receiving from experts who would like to see substantial regulatory practice here in the US for homeschooling families. At the end of the podcast Jenna says they will daydream a bit about the possibility of bringing adventure and challenges to communities all over the globe for our unschoolers. Perhaps it will inspire you to create one. Jenna hopes so!
Before we begin, Jenna wants listeners to know that she is still doing a book give-away. Just leave your review on Apple Podcasts, then email her and give her the screen-name you left the review under. She will put your name in a hat. (Yes, this is how it’s done!) The winner will win Blake Boles’ book ‘Why are you still sending your kids to school?’ For every five reviews, she will give away one copy of the book. Also, if you would like to join Jenna on the podcast to discuss any of the topics discussed on previous shows, you can be a co-host! Please reach out if you are interested! Lastly, Jenna says that the podcast has been so critical in helping her find community and learn, but she is looking for even more ways to connect with everyone. Sharing our stories and experiences really helps contribute to our personal growth. She is very thankful for those who have already reached out via email, voicemail and Zoom. She is looking for new ways to connect, form friendships, ask questions on a regular basis, read books together and discuss them. As she continues to find new resources she would really like to connect with you.
Jenna welcomes Blake to the podcast. She mentions that she just finished reading his book and wishes she had read it earlier in her journey to unschooling. She says there is just so much value in it regardless of whether you are alternative schooling or not. She feels that all parents should have a copy on their shelves. It offers so many perspectives on parenting and education. It is the first book she has read in which an author specifically states that remaining open and non-dogmatic are important to unschooling. Something Jenna whole-heartedly agrees with and has talked about on the show before. She shares a quote from the book. “I encourage you to fly no flag. Don’t join the Unschoolers and never look back. Instead, pledge allegiance to the young person in your charge. Familiarize yourself with the full spectrum of options. Whenever you feel like you’ve found the answer to your kid’s educational needs, add the words ‘for now.’ Jenna says she felt that in her bones. Her children are very different people, they have completely different needs. She feels that it’s so important to stay tuned in to each of them and their needs ‘right now.’
Blake responds and says that as even two siblings can be very different, a single child can be radically different between now and a few years from now. He feels that to embrace one pet educational philosophy or dogma and believe that it is the ONLY way forward is a bit short-sighted.
Jenna agrees and mentions that her own children have been in many educational environments over the years. Public school, private school, alternative schools and unschooling. As they have changed, their needs have changed. She asks Blake about what brought him to unschooling in the first place.
Blake states that he grew up in California and attended public school. He was good in school and enjoyed reading in his spare time and was ready for the internet when it came along. After High School he was interested in a career as a research scientist but realized that he wasn’t very interested in the subjects required for the degree (math & physics) also he stumbled onto the work of John Taylor Gatto . In an elective class about creating educational television. The instructor thought it would be more beneficial to read Mr. Gatto’s book, ‘A Different Kind of Teacher’ on alternative education, rather than to continue discussing how to make educational commercials. He went on to study more and more about self-directed and alternative schooling. He then went on to leave his science major and create his own major in Alternative Education at UCLA Berkeley.
Jenna says that she has now met several people who created their own degrees and is surprised that before that, she never even knew this was possible.
Blake says that universities don’t advertise it but if you look into the interdisciplinary studies department you can advocate for yourself. There are also universities out there that let everyone create their own degree. He gives the example of Prescott College.
Jenna mentions that this is near her in Arizona. Then she goes on to ask Blake about making the transition from the play-based learning of younger children to pre-teen years when kids begin to form goals and make plans for the future. How can parents guide them as peers begin to be more and more important. She mentions that on page 12 of Blake’s book he talks about schools being a place where kids are doing so many things that don’t really matter. She wonders, what IS a good use of their time?
Blake says that is a good question. For one kid it might be sewing for instance, but for another that may be irrelevant. Schools can’t give kids that kind of individual attention. There are so many options, outdoor education is a good place to start. For him this was transformative. Just getting out of his usual environment. He says that when he was in fifth grade he went to an outdoor education camp where they learned about plants, animals and other biology focused subjects. The best part was that it was like going to summer camp. He was super engaged. Then when he was fourteen he traveled to Chili with other students for a Spanish immersion experience and stayed with a host family for a month.This put him into a real world learning environment. Camps and travel can be very engaging and rewarding. This is why he decided to start a travel company for teens. “Fundamentally, what teenagers and adolescents want is adventures, they don’t want to sit around being bored or being lectured to.” He goes on to quote Maria Montessori , “We cannot treat adolescents the same way that we treat younger kids, they want engagement, they want rules that make sense.” He says that instead of kids going to summer camp for three months and school for nine, it should be flipped. Maybe for the three month period (not summer when it’s more fun to be outdoors.) kids could concentrate on the three Rs. (reading, writing, arithmetic) if that is even necessary and spend the other nine months engaged in more immersive experiences.
Jenna shares her experience in her own self-directed path as a teen, when at nineteen she decided after one year of college to take a break and travel to Germany to work as an aupair. She did her own research, found a family to work for and with her parents blessing, she went off on a grand adventure. Learning a new language, culture and how to live independently in a foreign country. Even though she created this experience for herself she struggles to find ways to create experiences for her kids within a group of their peers.
Blake says that yes, even though we have many advantages in the US, most camps and such are often just in the summer and can be expensive. It can be hard to find other parents who can coordinate their schedules as well.
Jenna points out that some camps are just too far away or too expensive and that she needs to find a way to make this easier. For those unfamiliar with Blake’s camps she goes on to explain some of the things he does in his camps. She says she was surprised by some of the simple, yet impactful activities. One such activity was web design which required kids to install Wordpress then create a basic and professional looking website that represented them to the world. They could use this later for many purposes including networking and entrepreneurship. Another activity was building a birdhouse where they could see the results by observing the birds using and enjoying it. Another project was to engage students with other people. By composing emails sending two different letters, one a letter of recommendation and the other a request for an interview with a stranger. This taught the importance of networking and communication skills.
Blake says that all of this requires a facilitator to set up some basic rules and guidelines but could be done by any homeschooling group or Alternative school.
Jenna shares that all of this talk of adventure reminds her of the reality television show The Amazing Race. For instance, all of the challenges that contestants encounter such as doing research beforehand on the language, culture etc. of all the places they go on a world wide race. She thinks this would be a great idea for teens.
Blake is unfamiliar with the show but says that Jenna just gave him a new idea for one of his adventures. He adds other ideas such as putting on a play or competing in a debate team. Those things can engage kids even in a non traditional school setting. He says that he feels these are more like meaningful games than mindless drudgery.
Jenna asks Blake about a term he uses ‘Hard Fun’ and asks him to explain it further.
Blake says that young kids can be left to play and learn as they do so, but as they grow they need to broaden what ‘play’ means. He gives the example of computer games which can be quite complex and challenging. This is Hard Fun. It involves challenges, teamwork, cooperation and planning. He would encourage other forms of Hard Fun as well such as hiking or mountain climbing.
Jenna says that her own Hard Fun is photography. She says that it might help parents to identify what their own Hard Fun might be. Then they can see how their child’s Hard Fun can teach them how to focus and problem solving.
Blake mentions that parents might worry about time wasting, but there is a lot of time wasting in traditional education.
Jenna agrees and gives the examples of homework, studying for tests , and extracurricular activities. Another subject she wants more information about is mentorship and apprenticeships as these are things Blake talks about on his many platforms.
Blake states that Peter Gray’s theory says that children will mimic adults, but since the world has moved from more manual work to more mental work the idea of mentorship or apprenticeship is much harder to set up. One good resource is YouTube. There are so many videos available to learn about careers.
Jenna says that her son really wants to learn to create video games and is having a hard time connecting with an adult to teach him this from the very beginning to the end. Classes are great but it would be better to observe someone who actually has that job.
Blake says that yes there are great resources out there to learn to program, but it is not the same as observing what it is like to actually be a programmer. He equates it to the time when he thought he wanted to be an astronomer, but when he found out what the daily work was like it wasn't’ what he thought it would be. He recommends emailing someone in the field. Not only can kids get their questions answered, they see that they can access the real adult world. It can be so motivating and empowering. It says to them “I can make a difference, I am part of the game.”
Jenna says that as a child by sixth grade she was itching to be a part of things. She was already working for her dad at his hardware store. She loved photography and travel and wondered “Why can’t I just do that?” Moving on, she suggests they talk about the Harvard Homeschooling Summit that Blake attended where new severe restrictions to homeschooling were discussed for those in the US.
Blake says that one of the primary speakers was Elizabeth Bartholet, Professor of Law and Faculty Director of the Child Advocacy Program Harvard Law School. She talked about how unregulated homeschooling is in the US. While some states such as New York have some guidelines, most do not. Blake believes that after reading the book ‘Educated’ by Tara Westover, Professor Bartholet became concerned over what can happen when homeschooling goes awry. This concern is shared by the CRHE - Coalition for responsible home education. This organization is mostly made up of the grown children of radically religious homeschoolers, with rigid enforcement of gender roles, and physical, emotional and mental abuse. Another key speaker was James G.(Jim) Dwyer Professor of Law at William & Mary since 2000, Dwyer teaches family law, children's rights, youth law, trusts & estates, and international law. He is author of ‘Homeschooling: The History and Philosophy of a Controversial Practice’.
Jenna wonders why Blake was invited to this particular conference.
Blake says that it is likely because he both interviewed and was interviewed on his and their podcasts. He says it is important to be open to different viewpoints. He goes on to say that there are genuine concerns within homeschooling to be worried about. Especially in regard to ‘parental rights.’ Some of the suggestions at the summit were to model after European guidelines, wherein a presumptive ban on homeschooling would occur with parents needing to apply to be an exception to the rule. He says he got some flack for being involved but he understood that when serious, smart people want to restrict homeschooling he needs to listen and try to build bridges.
Jenna expresses her frustration and comments that eliminating homeschooling won’t eliminate child abuse.
Blake agrees and says that their argument at the summit was that if a child is not seen by a mandatory reporter (ie, teacher, doctor, nurse, counselor etc.) then there should be at least two visits to a doctor or another mandatory reporter during the year.
Jenna says that that actually makes sense. She notes on the other hand that abuse and trauma oftens happens at school.
Jenna says that having lived in Germany where homeschooling is not allowed, she sees regulation as a slippery slope. But she is not opposed to having observers checking in on occasion. It just needs to be handled delicately. She then asks Blake what his future plans are with his programs for teens.
Blake says that he likes to create things that he himself is interested in and doesn’t like to repeat things. He is planning a personal adventure and taking a biking trip around Europe. Then he will be leading an adventure the beginning of 2022 (Jan.- Feb. Now Full) called Humans of Mexico. Six weeks through southern Mexico ending in Mexico City. He says he stole the idea from the Humans of New York photojournalism project. The thirteen teens in the group will be meeting with people on the street, photographing them and interviewing them. They will post their work daily on Instagram. He says he gets his adventure ideas year by year. He mentions that he has contacts in the Patagonia region of South America and would like to make a camp there where they would have full use of an entire hostel. The region is a mecca for hiking and mountain climbing. To keep up to date on his upcoming adventures be sure to subscribe to his newsletter at the bottom of the page on Unschool Adventures.
Jenna says this sounds amazing and as she and her husband both love to travel, this would be something they would want to do as well.
Blake encourages Jenna to start her own adventure group. He says he got started by applying for a trip leader position for a gap year company. But, he didn’t get the job. So he asked the director of the company if he would help him start his own company and the man said yes. He said there were not enough of these companies.
Jenna now asks Blake the four questions she likes to ask all of her guests:
What are you curious about? Blake says that right now he is engaged in planning his bike tour, finding places to stay etc.
What is your favorite way to learn? Blake says he likes to jump right in with a bit of research, saying “What is the worst that can happen?” For instance if he doesn’t have someplace to stay, there are alternatives.
What kind of self-directed learning do you like to do for yourself? Beyond the adventure stuff, he says that he enjoys books and long podcasts.
Is there a book, blog or podcast that you recommend? Blake mentions the Podcast Econtalk with Russ Roberts. Also, a website and app called All Sides , which gives news from the left, right and center with a summary. He likes to use it to stay informed in a non time consuming and balanced way.
Jenna suggests Blake check out Blinkist, a website and app that allows one to read or listen to a non-fiction book or podcast by getting the key ideas in minutes, not hours. You get a new book every day!
Jenna thanks Blake for being on the podcast and asks him the best way to connect with him. Blake says that the best way is his website. Jenna says the website is like a template for unschooling.
Philip is a former elementary school teacher who now offers parenting advice for busy and frustrated parents. He and his wife home school their three young children. He’s a regular contributor to Fathering Together and First Time Parent Magazine.
He is interviewed by Living Joyfully With Unschooling on the Exploring Unschooling podcast. View here on YouTube:
SHOW NOTES:
In today’s episode Jenna and Philip have an open and honest conversation about how each of their households handles things like screen time, bedtime and other common hurdles in unschooling.
Before we begin Jenna reminds listeners that she is always looking for new topics and questions you would like to hear addressed on the podcast. For instance, would you like to hear more from Jenna herself, more experts, other ideas? Also, remember to please leave a review as this helps grow the community.
Jenna begins the interview by asking Philip to explain his journey into self-directed learning.
Jenna points out that the driving force in self-directed learning is curiosity. Philip states that within their home school ‘Curiosity is the Curriculum’ is their motto. An example he gives of a typical day is this. His kids are really into Pokemon right now. So, they will watch an episode or two and then go downstairs to the basement and act it out. His older son has learned all of the characters, cards, hit points etc. He is using a lot of skills including math. He advises parents to stop and observe what kids are doing and be able to see and recognize that their learning is fun and they are using valuable skills. Jenna mentions that she has observed her kids especially on excursions and that natural conversations occur that inspire learning. As a teacher she could see the learning but it was very subtle. With her son, his big interest at the moment is video games. He has learned by trying and failing and trying again. As he improved and learned organizational skills as well as the tech, he now shares his skills on Twitch. He learned a lot of soft skills that could one day be applied to a career. Academics she says can be learned and proven, whereas soft skills are more fluid. Philip agrees that academics have all these benchmarks and soft skills are harder to master. Even though Jenna’s son is showing leadership skills, there may be times when he doesn’t take a leadership role and that’s okay. He goes on to talk about labeling kids. One label he hears a lot is regarding ‘the strong-willed child.’ Once you decide your child is strong-willed, you tend to see everything they do through that lens. He wonders how it helps a parent to label a child strong-willed. While they may have been strong-willed yesterday, he believes we should give our loved ones a new chance everyday. Jenna says this reminds her of on the topic of Nature vs Nurture. Perhaps it is the dynamic between parent and child. For instance maybe the parent is very authoritative and that impacts the child’s behavior. It goes both ways and can be very different between children within the same household.
What can Microschools Offer to Unschoolers?
Season 2 · Episode 23
Wednesday, July 21, 2021 • Duration 47:08
Guest CoHost
Emily Gregoire
IG @the.rainbow.room_
YouTube @theunschoolingdiary
Holistic Microschool Owner/Creator, Unschooling/Multicultural family of 6, lifelong self directed learner with a deep respect for babies and children as creative, curious, natural learners. Heavily influenced by Montessori philosophy. Member of 100 Roads a group of educators and edupreneurs.
Show Notes
Emily got started in self directed learning years ago. In fact, she earned her degree in self directed general studies. When she had children, she realized she was going have to find a different way because her husband, who is a chef, had very abnormal working hours. She began reading and researching education styles that were more focused on holistic learning models. In Nevada, a program became available to individual students where they could receive $5,000 as a voucher to use for alternative education. Emily was really fired up and started forming coalitions and began informing people about this option, but the program sadly fell through. But the fire was lit, and Emily had met so many other like-minded families throughout the process that they decided to all work together. Her daughters became involved with what was Wildflowers Learning Studio from there. Sadly the teacher leading the learning center passed away from cancer, so Emily decided to carry on the torch. During Covid, she opened the Rainbow Room where she had 10 students in the mornings and 10 students in the afternoon.
Jenna asks if it was difficult to find students for Emily’s micro school? Emily says it was interesting because the people who showed interest originally weren’t always the ones who actually registered. She found the best way to recruit students was through local mom groups who were looking for a learning model that could extend from their current nurture-based parenting methods. For these families, the concept doesn’t seem so wild because they’ve already done the research and have experience pushing up against the status quo. She doesn’t want to educate or sell parents on the idea, she wants to be the solution. She says she built the solution she was looking for for her own daughters.
What Are Microschools?
Season 2 · Episode 22
Wednesday, July 14, 2021 • Duration 51:23
Guest
Mara Linaberger
Founder & COO, Microschool Builders, LLC Dr. Mara Linaberger believes that each of us has chosen to be here at this moment in time for a specific reason—that we are each on a mission that we choose for ourselves. And that figuring out what we love, what we’re good at, and how we can be of service is the engine we need to fuel a lifetime of joyful learning. Mara also believes that school often slows down or stifles that excitement for students. So she is on a mission to create a global network of 100 microschools in the next 20 years—to harness education toward helping amazing children to develop their highest potentials while making learning fun again! Mara is a life-long educator, author, technologist, artist, ballroom dancer, and musician, having spent 25 years in service as a public school educator, teacher trainer, and administrator. Completing a doctorate in Instructional Technology, she went on to earn a Superintendent’s Letter of Eligibility in Pennsylvania. Launching Mindful Technology Consultants in 2013, she continues to train teachers at the masters level on the use of digital portfolios as alternative assessments and on bringing mindfulness practices into the classroom. Mara is the international two-time best selling author of HELP! My Child Hates School and The Micro-School Builder’s Handbook. Mara currently lives in Harmony, PA, with her husband Michael while she travels far and wide, directly supporting clients in her global Microschool Builders programs.
Jenna says that she thinks many listeners of the Rogue Learner podcast are interested in knowing more about alternative and progressive education models, but who aren’t able to homeschool, may be interested in looking into microschools. She asks Mara to give an overview of microschools for the audience. Mara says that many people would characterize it differently but she sees it as the reinvention of the one-room schoolhouse. It’s usually a parent or educator who decides they want to work with a small group of students in a community. In most cases, micro schools have multi-age groupings, lots of self direction on the part from the students, more time outdoors, more time for field trips and hands-on projects. You can picture it as a one-room schoolhouse with technology, the ability to communicate with others and collaborate beyond our communities, and the ability to travel. They are really a great alternative for many kids. Jenna says it seems like a good alternative for people who want to build something different for students that is easier than creating a school which can accommodate up to 600 students.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show Ways to Connect
Key Takeaways on Adventure, Socialization, & Individualized Learning
Season 2 · Episode 21
Wednesday, July 7, 2021 • Duration 01:03:45
Guest Co-Host
Jessica McGough
Hi All! I am a nature enthusiast and aspiring adventurer and was born and raised in Sonoma County, California. I attended college in northern California and then spent five months in Massachusetts where I participated in an AmeriCorps/Student Conservation Association program to work on environmental education and complete trail work projects in 2010. I taught at the preschool level as a college student, which is where my passion for working with children was ignited. I possess my California Multiple Subject Teaching Credential and taught kindergarten for three years, third grade for one year, and have also substitute taught in all of the elementary grades.
My identical twin daughters were born in 2016 prematurely at 30 weeks gestation, and I have greatly enjoyed focusing my energy on them over the last handful of years. Taking a step back from teaching in the traditional school setting and having children of my own has been an enlightening process. In this phase of life, my thoughts and perspectives on education have shifted immensely. This transformation has led me to the exciting, innovative, and inspiring world of self-directed learning and unschooling.
Thankfully, I have found my new place in education as a facilitator for Galileo, the amazing online self-directed global school. I am also an aspiring children's book author and hope to release my first book in the coming months. My family hopes to adopt a more fluid and adventurous lifestyle in the near future consisting of new and exciting places and experiences.
Instagram @jessicadmcgough
Clubhouse @jessicadmcgough
Show Notes
Jessica was an educator for several years, working with children in preschool thru elementary school. After having her twin girls, her perspective on education changed dramatically and she began researching and reading more about alternative education. She read ‘Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom’ by Kerry McDonald, Teach Your Own by John Holt and Pat Ferenga, and by Ainsley Arment. She’s spent years immersing herself in alternative and self-directed education. She and her husband have chosen an alternative education path for their daughters when they become school-aged. She is so happy to have found an independent-study charter school in California where they live and they will be trying that out for the first year of school for their daughters. She has been so excited to find a job for herself as a facilitator at ($100 off your first month’s tuition if you mention Rogue Learner)
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show Ways to Connect
Family Adventures; Creating Connection Through Shared Experiences Together
Season 2 · Episode 20
Wednesday, June 30, 2021 • Duration 01:01:51
Guest
Heidi Dusek
A catalyst, healthy disruptor and unshakeable optimist, Heidi’s passion lies in challenging the status quo, driving change and delivering experiences. Known as a translator between sectors whose background transcends education, health, nonprofits, university, business, philanthropy, design and podcasting. While stacking talents and lived experiences is her superpower, she continually embraces each role with a lens of empathy, trust and curiosity as critical threads embedded in the fabric of designing an authentic and memorable life.
Today she and her husband live in Wisconsin with 3 children and spend a considerable amount of time outdoors, remodeling their third generation farm house, mastering un-tourism, and creating connections with people around the world. Her podcast Ordinary Sherpa inspires families to connect through simple adventures.
Heidi grew up on a farm with a large family. She remembers meeting and greeting people often and spent the majority of her time outside. When she became a mom, she felt the need to choose between adventure, career, or motherhood and decided that would not be her story.
Heidi defines adventure as anything that creates a new experience and something that feels like a risk. (As in you may try and fail) She thinks it’s important for families to adventure together because it’s healthy physically and mentally and helps build resiliency, adversity and not let fear dictate your decision-making. Adventure is the most novel way for us to experience all of those benefits while having fun and connect.
How Do Family Values Shape Your Individual Unschooling Journey?
Season 2 · Episode 19
Wednesday, June 23, 2021 • Duration 39:09
Guest Cohost
Sue Monteiro
I am a violinist and violin teacher with an online teaching studio. I have been a homeschooling mom for 16 years. I also run a musical themed online book club called "Learning Music With the Authors" where we read literature based on music and history and discuss the books with the authors. I also have a podcast of the same name where every month I go over the book introduction and review along with author interviews and interviews with musicians as well as present puzzles for the kids who read the books. (They can win prizes if they complete the puzzle!)
Sue shares how unschooling really saved her and her son. After sending her son to kindergarten for a week, they decided public school wasn’t for them. Her son didn’t want to go each day and was running away from the classroom. Rather than addressing her son’s concerns, the teacher blamed Sue for her son’s behavior. After pulling him out of the traditional kindergarten classroom, she opted for a hybrid homeschooling program. Her son still wasn’t happy there. She ended up taking him out of that program as well. They spent a year unschooling. They went to the zoo, museums, and the beach. After receiving some pressure from her mom, Sue sent her son back to school. The school wanted to test her son to assess his reading level. The teacher said he had an advanced vocabulary and Sue liked the teacher because she was really respectful with her son. Sue liked the teacher and her son attended the school for a year. Once the year was over, and it was time to switch teachers, Sue found herself in the same position she was in when her son was in kindergarten, so she pulled him out again and has been unschooling him ever since. He is 16 now.
A Third Wave of Unschooling & Children's Rights with Lucy AitkenRead
Lucy is a mom of two, a 10 year old daughter and an 8 year old son. She is originally from London, but now lives in New Zealand. They moved there to bring out a little more of their wild. Her kids have never been to school. The moment her daughter was born, they began thinking about life without school. Her and her family took a year-long trip around Europe and one of the things they firmly decided on during that trip was that their kids were not going to attend school. Through her reading and experience in a German forest kindergarten, she was able to draw a map of how their lives could look and now they’re living it.
Jenna mentions that many families seem to know right from the beginning that they want to unschool, however her progression to this lifestyle was a very gradual one. Jenna asks which book Lucy read during her travels that she picked up at a second-hand shop. Lucy said she read John Holt’s book How Children Learn and Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff, which were both very influential. The Continuum Concept had a huge impact on Lucy’s mindset about childhood.
Jenna reflected on her own paradigm shift and how moving away from her hometown may have been a catalyst for her to be able to let go of influences and really dig into her own values, and essentially reinvent herself.
Resources Mentioned in Today’s Show
Transitioning teens; how to facilitate mentorships, apprenticeships & socialization
Season 2 · Episode 17
Wednesday, June 9, 2021 • Duration 58:02
Guest Co-host
Erin Rosemond
IG @ever.learning
Show Notes
Jenna has Erin Rosemond joining the show today as a guest co-host. She has been home educating for 18 years and has four children. She became interested in home education early on when a friend of Erin’s mentioned she’d be home educating her son. That conversation happened when her oldest son was just a baby. Erin explains how they were self-directed from the beginning as her family is very self-directed anyway. She would describe herself as unschooling, yet she never felt the need to label what they were doing, outside of digging into content for her own homeschooling practice. Jenna adds that she also is cautious in labeling her family’s home ed lifestyle as she likes the freedom to know that they can be whatever they need to be, without needing to label. The label is helpful when searching for resources online, Erin adds.
Jenna asks Erin about her 1st takeaway from episode 016 with Zak Slayback. Erin had many takeaways from the episode, but her first was about Zak’s comment about narrative violations. The expectations people have about going to school don’t actually match up with the results. Erin found that in her job recruiting young people, she has often found that her hiring is not always based on credentials (although a range of people with and without qualifications are applying), but rather they are just a better fit for that role.
Erin reflected on the amount of active learning that actually takes place in a college year and was shocked to come to the realization that it’s really only a total of 23 weeks. (six months) It made her look even further into our k-12 education and realize it’s no different there. We spend hours of our lives wrapped up in the huge production that is our education system, but the number of engaged hours spent learning is so few.
Resources Mentioned in Today’s Show
What's Missing in Our Current School System, Deschooling, and a Future Without College
Author published at McGraw-Hill; former research fellow at the University of Pennsylvania; principal at 1517 Fund, a VC firm spun out of the Thiel Fellowship. Zak is a career & communications expert whose content has been highlighted or featured in Fast Company, Business Insider, The Muse, Newsweek, and the New York Observer. He was an early team member at the startup apprenticeship company Praxis, where he was charged with recruiting new business partners and placing apprentices. He left the University of Pennsylvania in 2014 after pursuing a major in Philosophy.
twitter: @zslayback
personal site: zakslayback.com
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Show Notes:
Zak Slaybach started the Deschool Yourself project with his co-host Jeff Till. They talked with a handful of people who had experience with education in k-12 and higher education. Zak’s interest in doing the podcast came from his unique experience of working with young adults from different backgrounds and placing them in jobs that required degrees, although these young people didn't have degrees. He noticed a trend where the people who had the most training and academic backgrounds were least prepared for the jobs they were placed in. It was a narrative violation because he’d expected that the best performers in school who’d been accepted to elite colleges would have the best self-governing and organization skills, but in fact that wasn’t the case for the majority of the people he worked with.
Philip says that he began reading a lot about child development, student engagement, and why students are not fully engaged. He realized that he was becoming the teacher he himself would not have wanted when he was a student. His experience in school was not a good one which was one reason he wanted to become a teacher himself. At that time he felt he had fallen into an authoritarian role. After doing some reading he began to try to make his classroom more child centered. But he says that the writings of Magda Gerber, a parent child advocate who founded the Resources for Infant Educarers usually referred to as RIE, was a great inspiration for him. He found this resource when his child was thirteen months old and followed her advice on letting the child lead in play and learning. He had always followed a self-directed path in his own learning but hadn’t made the connection that it would be the same for even very young children. He and his wife were surprised and pleased that a child that young could be so self-directed. This was when they became hooked on self-directed learning and knew that they wanted that for their family.
Jenna notes that she is always surprised at how many educators there are who have an epiphany and says that she can relate to the feeling of becoming that teacher that you don’t want to be. She says that it felt uncomfortable and wrong but was brought on by stress and expectations which were out of her control.
Philip agrees and says that when he was teaching fifth grade at an online school he was on a team that kept him from implementing some of the things he wanted to try. He did create a program he called ‘Connect’ in which he would engage with students in order to build a relationship beyond just academics. He tracked grades during this time and saw that the extra engagement with his students did improve their interest and success in class. But, it still didn’t make up for the fact that trying to teach everyone the same thing at the same time was really not working. The curriculum keeps teachers bound to a timeline teaching specific skills at specific times.
Jenna asks if there is in his opinion any time that any one skill MUST be learned.
Philip says that it is less about when or even what is absolutely needed to be known or learned, but is much more imperative that the child not be made to feel inadequate if they fail to learn something at the time we expect them to learn it. Even if parents don’t criticize or punish their child for not learning a skill, they receive the message of unworthiness from standardized testing, the grading system etc.
Jenna mentions that some teachers put the scores on the board following a test. She wonders if this is supposed to motivate the students.
Philip says he wonders if it has become more valuable to beat another person rather than to learn and nurture relationships. He says that some of the philosophical reasoning within racism and feminism can teach about children and learning. He mentions the book ‘For Her Own Good’ by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English. The book addresses the wife having no say, and kids often find themselves in the same position. A power over vs power with mentality.
Jenna mentions a podcast episode by Brene Brown, where she discusses the Power Over vs Power With paradigm.
Jenna goes on to ask Philip if is familiar with Peter Gray’s assertion that language is the only subject that must be learned by age four and does he agree.
Philip says that in his own experience it has been the case that timelines on learning are very individual. He gives the example of his own learning. As he said before he was not a good student even in high school. But, in college he was ready to learn and did well. He supposes that exposure to one’s native language would most likely occur naturally.
Jenna says she was speaking with a friend recently and they brought up the fact that as students they didn’t learn much about technology as it hadn’t been invented yet. Now, everytime new tech comes along they all learn to use it. An example of learning when the need occurs.
Philip says it is impossible to be the same parent to all of his kids. His kids are very different people.
Jenna mentions that she isn’t even the same person around her different groups of friends, so of course it makes sense that it is impossible to parent each child exactly the same way.
Philip says that his wife came back from the store one day and said that she needed to remember what it was like to shop with a three year old. This conversation reminded him that we even tend to label age groups of children. We put expectations of behavior and more on them. He says we need to look at it more individually. This is not A child, this is MY child. She isn’t a problem, she is having a problem.
Jenna agrees and says that it might be you that is projecting and actually creating a problem. Everyone has good and bad days.
Philip says we need to not be hard on ourselves as parents, since there are no ‘perfect’ parents.
Jenna says that within self-directed learning there is a tendency to strive for peacefulness and avoid conflict at all costs. She asks Philip’s thoughts on this.
Philip states that there are only two things in their household that they are firm on. Bedtime and Screen Time. As for bedtime they have ‘room time.’ The kids have to spend time in their rooms at night, but there is no requirement as to when they actually go to sleep.
Jenna says that for her, sleep is a number one priority. In her household with her kids, as they are older, and with some experimentation they agreed that everyone would be in bed by 9:30 PM. They don’t have to go to sleep, but they need to be quiet.
Philip says he really likes that Jenna discussed her need for sleep with her kids and asked her kids to help her out with that.
Jenna prompts Philip for his thoughts on screen time.
Philip states that he and his wife didn’t initially agree on this subject. (She wanted to limit it.) Now that his kids no longer have nap time, this has become Screen Time. They also have another screen time session in the evening. Although it is limited, it has not been a problem. Screens are now part of our culture and kids will most certainly be using them a lot in their futures.
Jenna says she is glad that he and his wife were able to negotiate as it demonstrates what everyone goes through. Parents are hardly ever in complete agreement on every issue. For her family they had years of limited screen time. She says she wouldn’t change that because it is impossible to explain to a two or five year old how video games are designed to be addictive. Now that her kids are older, she can discuss it at a higher level. Her son now spends the majority of his time on a screen since his main interests include gaming, tech related everything, 2D animation, 3D modeling, YouTube, Twitch etc. If she sees that he is losing interest in all of the other things he loves such as basketball, rock climbing and swimming, then it would be time to have a conversation with him. She says that one of the superpowers of self-directed parents is that they know their children so well that they notice more when something is off.
Philip discusses the fact that even if a self-directed parent were concerned they wouldn’t panic or try to solve the problem on their own. They would as Jenna stated have a conversation with the child and participate together in a solution.
Jenna and Philip wrap up the interview by agreeing that there are so many variables in play. Personalities, ages, etc. There is no rulebook. Parents have to be kind to themselves and their children.
Jenna asks Philip the four questions that she asks all of her guests:
How do you like to learn? Philip says he really likes to learn in tandem with others. Something like an apprenticeship.
What are you curious about? Philip states that he is currently into meal prep and meal planning. Jenna asks if he has resources for that to share. Philip says that he just pulls things from the pantry and experiments.
Do you have any educational resources that you want to share? Philip says that he has found some great courses through Masterclass
Some of the classes he has tried are Graphic Design, Cooking and Guitar Playing.
What is a book, blog or podcast that you recommend? Philip says that Rogue Learner is of course on the list as well as Teacher Tom, an inspiring, friendly and authentic blog about living and learning with preschoolers.
Jenna asks Emily to tell us about her children. Emily says she has 4 girls, Juliettta (9), Ophelia (7), Louie (5), and Lucianna (2). She grew up with 5 siblings and jokes that if it’s not chaos, it’s not parenting. She says her path was like collecting nuts through the forest. She read Free to Learn, which then lead to her reading another, and then another book. In the Rainbow Room, Emily tries to create a robust and healthy environment where you can’t help but learn. Jenna adds that being able to cater the environment to the students is what makes microschools really unique.
Jenna asks Emily to share her first takeaway from the episode with Mara Linaberger. Emily says it was great hearing Mara’s experiences and learning about all the different microschools that are out there. Her favorite part of the episode was when Mara said that her vision for microschools is to create something where we can do all the best practices for students, all of the time. Emily highlights that anyone working with kids are most likely trying to do what’s best for their students all of the time, but because of all the demands and overload on teachers, it’s just like too little butter spread over too much bread. With microschools, you can better define what is working and what isn’t. She advises microschool leaders to under commit and over perform. She started out with a really small morning slot and let the school evolve over time into what it is today. She felt like that was a good way for her to keep true to her original concept for the microschool. Jenna says it’s much easier for a microschool to commit to and stay true to a vision because of the small number of students. That is the impossible dream that schools promise, but they can’t serve each student due to their size and the learning environment created with such a large population of kids. Emily kind of cautions microschool owners to really be clear on their vision and stick to it, because the fear of not having enough students or appeasing others could easily set things in a direction you didn’t intend on. When she meets with a family, Emily looks for that spark. It should feel like a perfect fit, she says she’s very heart-centered in the way works with the families interested in the Rainbow Room for their child. She was happy to see the Rainbow Room evolve to include 10 multilingual/multicultural families out of the 20 registered.
Jenna says that one of her takeaways from the episode was that she sees microschools filling a need for kids like hers, who are searching for a consistent, stable and reliable community which they can be a part of regularly. Jenna adds that she thinks this is where microschools could be a wonderful asset to unschooling/homeschooling families. She asks Emily if she has had a lot of homeschooling or unschooling families reaching out to her for something like that? Emily says that that’s exactly what she experienced because when she tried to collaborate with families in co-op-style format, she had a lot of people excited at the beginning but then cancelling at the last minute or their enthusiasm faded. It was frustrating for her kids because they were looking forward to seeing other kids or learning something. She discovered that families were happy to pay for something reliable, which meant that Emily could prepare things for students and offer this social time for her kids without wondering if people were going to show up. And yes, to answer Jenna’s question, the families that are enrolled at The Rainbow Room are homeschooling/unschooling families who have signed a waiver in the state of Nevada stating that they are solely responsible for their child’s education. Emily adds that she also likes how she can incorporate structure but with freedom. They have certain routines each day, but they aren’t bound by the clock. Things can start and end with the natural flow of the kids’ interest or lack thereof. It’s a balancing act.
Jenna had a flashback from her teaching days as Emily described the ebb and flow of their day in the Rainbow Room. She says it was often the case that she had to interrupt the kids during an activity because of the strict scheduling and alternatively, if the kids weren’t really interested in a certain activity, she had a difficult time finding a quick substitute activity to fill in the gap. Therefore, she experienced a great deal of wasted time. She sees how microschools and SDE learning centers have the huge advantage of flexibility and individualized planning.
Emily shares how excited she gets when a question leads to another question and she can quickly pull up a YouTube video, grab a book or another resource and see where the learning goes.Emily says she likes to focus on the environment in the classroom first and foremost. That’s where most of her planning time goes. It’s funny how some projects she thinks the kids might really like are total flops, while other little classroom materials can lead to long investigations and self-initiated experiments.
Emily shares how her insecurities crept up at the beginning around having “evidence of learning” for the parents to see. She wondered what she was going to show them. But then she realized that was part of her deschooling process and she had already had extensive conversations with these parents about their expectations, so it was a fear that wasn’t in line with the values of The Rainbow Room. She said it was very important to know that her and the parents were on the same page and why they were sending their kids to her microschool. She believes it is all about open communication with parents and clearly defining the expectations. Jenna says that on the flip side, it’s important for families looking into microschools to ask questions and make sure it is the right fit for their family and that it aligns with the SDE principles.
Emily agrees and says that she’d love to see a space where there are multiple options for kids housed under one institution. One real example of this model exists in Colorado. They’ve taken an abandoned mall and converted it into a community college where people can attend sewing workshops and stem projects, or meet up to eat lunch in the food court. Her dream is to see a community space where many microschools come together and serve a greater community of people. Another example she refers to is Workspace Education.
Jenna says that idea sounds nice for two reasons; first, the students would be immersed in a diverse group of people and would be able to view themselves as valuable members of a greater society. It also eliminates some ot the potential for groupthink within a really small microschool ecosystem. And secondly, it allows students the option to find a smaller community within that larger community space that works best with their learning style and goals. An example she shares is of how her son is thriving with this online self directed school he attends, while her daughter craves a space where she is known and she knows the kids in her classes well.
Emily notes that she feels the same about craving a space that could work for families collectively. She dreams of a facility where we could cross-pollinate ideas and not isolate ourselves with our small groups of kids. She asks, can we not create these family, or rather human spaces, where people can work and learn and jive together - here we can socialize and play? She says she hopes that's the future.
Jenna says she was just talking with a potential upcoming guest for the podcast about how we can make SDE accessible to anyone. Her very off-the-cuff idea was to make this look more like a community center. Jenna adds that it would be great to see a buzzing community of classes, workshops, etc offered by volunteers and paid employees or apprentices, and where each class is seen as vital to the wellbeing of humans as any other. So yoga is just as important as calculus and meditation is considered equal in value to reading. Jenna sort of jokes that perhaps this is a utopian dream, but she hopes it’s not. She hopes this vision becomes a reality.
One of the things Emily mentioned with homeschool meetups is that there is a lack of reliability in them sometimes, which can be disappointing for kids. Jenna had a similar experience because her Wednesday meetup varied each week in terms of who could come, which meant that she couldn’t guarantee that her daughter was able to see her friends on a weekly basis. This did not work for her and oftentimes left her daughter quite sad. It really turned her daughter off from meetups and made it less inviting. Jenna says there’s flaws in that method, and sees the value in a more regular, reliable meetup like a microschool or SDE learning center.
Emily says that in the workspace education group she mentioned earlier, which was inspired by her mentor Cath Phrase, had the idea that families would sign up together for a co-learning space and everyone would contribute. Within that same space, they provided the option for parents that worked to drop off their kids and have them attend an Acton Academy. She wishes there were more spaces which were open to that sort of thing.
Jenna says that microschools and SDE learning centers could provide parents with a bridge to unschooling as they continue to deschool. She feels like perhaps part of the reason parents are scared to jump in feet first is because they have so much pressure to be and do all the things for their children. Jenna asks if there are any last takeaways that Emily would like to share from the episode. Emily says that she likes Maras model and would be happy to see more people opening microschools. She adds though, that there is more work needed with the legal side of things. She says it would be great if there was a plug and play language that could be used in every state to explain exactly what microschools are and require. The term “microschools” seems to be simple for people to understand, so it’s a good word to use to describe them. We just need some cohesive language about what they are and how they function so people can run them legitimately across all 50 states.
Jenna says it’s what Mara was saying too, it’s very complicated because each state has varying laws about homeschooling and microschools. Jenna shares how she heard about Canada’s government providing homeschooling families with money to buy resources and such, but unfortunately by the time politicians were through with it, the stipulations on how the money could be spent made it impossible to use on resources that mattered to unschoolers. For example, families could buy textbooks which aren’t exactly applicable to unschooling principles. So yeah, we have to be careful when we vote for new laws that we know what it actually means.
Emily says that’s a really good point. We even have to protect our rights as homeschoolers. Who knows where it will all go from here. Jenna says she hates to leave on a negative note, but we can’t ignore the fact that there’s still work to be done and there are issues and we do have to fight for this. We need to be involved in our local politics and make sure laws are passed that only further the vision we have for our children.
Mara mentions that the word micro school was coined in 2010, but is not a new idea. She says Montessori, Reggio Emilo, Waldorf, and Sudbury are all labeled ‘alternative education’, but she thinks that word is loaded because they can be seen as schools which parents send their kids to when they’re getting into trouble or they just don’t fit in. She says that micro schools do accommodate those kids, of course, but there are plenty of other people who are looking for smaller, more personalized, more community-based, gentler, kinder, slower micro schools.
Mara says she’s seeing an influx of parents who are choosing micro schools with kids who are highly sensitive, diagnosed with adhd, gifted, kids with learning deficits or challenges. In the smaller learning environment, she says it’s a lot easier to meet the needs of each individual child as opposed to the public schools which sometimes serve hundreds of students.
Jenna points out that the one thing schools can provide is a sense of community, however in public schools the number of students is often so large that it’s impossible to feel connected and valued as an individual. She says that’s where micro schools can fill a need, the need for community. It would provide a space where you can focus on the wellbeing of the child, not just tests.
On the topic of testing and assessment, Mara says that it’s not used to measure the value of a child first and foremost, but unfortunately children adopt this type of thinking. They think an A means your good and a C means your bad. What an A means, is that you mastered the content and a C means you haven’t mastered the content and it should be used as a guidepoint for the teacher. It lets the teacher know whether or not the way they taught the content was good for the student. With micro schools, there is less emphasis on assessment because the facilitator/guide/mentor is with the child all day everyday in most instances and can observe the progress of the child without formal assessment. They can organically assess whether the child is attaining knowledge. In many micro schools, children will show what they’ve learned by putting on a show for the community, keeping portfolios, or videos. There are so many ways for kids to demonstrate what they know, tests are just one of them. Unfortunately for many kids now, tests create a personal sense of worth and value which is not what they’re intended to do.
Jenna says she agrees and points out that with unschoolers and homeschoolers, we are organically observing our children’s growth over time. It’s easy to see how they’ve acquired new vocabulary or are reading at a higher level. If proof is necessary for some reason, it’s easy to acquire it without formal assessments.
Mara says that some of the micro schools she works with are required to give formal, standardized assessments because of the state they live in, however the way that they approach it is as a celebration of how far the students have come. She says that in most cases children grow even further than what they would be expected to in a public school after a year, so the kids feel some sort of validation from their approach to learning.
Jenna says bureaucracy is there and sometimes there are gatekeepers. She says she likes how Mara flips it around, and uses tests as a celebration of all you’ve learned rather than a valuation of the child’s worth. It’s not used to measure a child up to anyone else’s standards, it’s more of a look at how far the child has come.
Jenna asks how Mara got involved with micro schools. Mara says that eight years ago she was working as the director of staff development, technology integration, new teacher induction, and data and assessment for a local school district. She thought that by moving up into administration, she’d be able to help change education and make it a sainer place for students and educators. At the end of her first year, a new superintendent was coming in and the budget was not balanced and so Mara’s position was eliminated. It was the first time she realized that she was dispensable. She looked for employment elsewhere, but came to the realization that she couldn’t reenter the public school system. She set up a consulting business and did some teaching online, but she also began to investigate the system of education because she was curious about how she could have been part of something that didn’t really value the skill sets she brought and was so easily cast aside. She started questioning what she could do with all of her experience now and knowing that education really wasn’t designed to create autonomous, happy, well-adjusted learners. It’s designed to create workers who can follow the directions they are given, knowing that that’s not really working for kids anymore and won’t work for us in the future because of how rapidly our planet is changing and requires a very different kind of ‘worker’.’ It requires someone who can think autonomously, who can be creative, and come up with solutions for problems.
Mara actually had dreams about one-room schoolhouses and she got curious about that. So she investigated that further and discovered they were still a thing. She read some books written by people who were running them. She went to visit one of them off the coast of Maine and actually got hired to open the school for three students. She stayed for three months before resigning due to the extreme isolation the island had from the mainland. While there however, Mara got to experience how a community of well-intentioned citizens could run a school even with a limited budget. She then wrote a book about making better school choices for your kids, and that led to her writing about how people could go about opening their own school. That book has grown into a full-blown business. Mara now has seven clients who have opened micro schools, which are networked together. She has six new clients who will be opening schools this fall. Mara says her vision, for the work that she’s doing, is to help people who want to get a small school open as a viable business that will pay the owner well and offer real value back to the community of learners and the community in general. Her hope is that all of the owners can work together and collaborate, so the kids are getting a global experience while at the same time still being grounded in their community.
Jenna says she loves the vision and can see how these schools will be popping up everywhere because she sees a need for them, especially for the teen population. In her own experience, she’s found that her kids are yearning for a place to meet up with a constant community of people on a day to day basis. Jenna says she sees how this could really work together with home education to create a real turning point for education.
Mara says she actually has a micro school owner who road-schools with her students. The students choose a location they’d like to go as a culminating activity for the learning. This last Spring they went to Mexico after studying the culture. She says what micro schools can offer road schoolers, homeschoolers, and world schoolers is a place where kids can drop in and feel like part of a community whether it’s for a few weeks or a year. Microschools are really powerful for families who are still a bit fearful to jump in alone or who are not able to do it themselves and are willing to pay someone else to offer that sort of experience to their child.
Jenna asks what it is like to open a micro school and what type of person does Mara look for in her clients. Mara says she prefers to work with educators or parents who are very familiar with self-directed learning. She has a nine-step process for opening a school. The first step is identifying the market - looking for which types of schools are offered in their community, what they do well, what they don’t do well, and most importantly what’s missing that kids want and need. Then she helps the owner identify who their ideal students and families are. Second step is mapping out the business. This requires figuring out the legal entity to select and discovering the school codes for their area. Some states will allow schools to open up as a private school, while others operate as a learning resource center for homeschoolers or as tutoring centers. The third step is marketing. Mara stresses that many people might get into this thinking that finding a space and mapping out the learning day is the place to start, but because it’s a business it’s really important to make sure there’s a buyer for your product, just like any other business would do. Jenna laughs and adds that she herself learned that the hard way as a long-time entrepreneur.
Mara says that as a micro school owner, you’re essentially providing an alternative for kids to their public or private school, so you really want to build something that is exceptional. Microschools give us this rare opportunity to do things we know are best for children, to use all of the best practices, all of the time and not to just pay lip service to them. The single best thing you can do when you’re thinking about building a micro school is to clearly identify who that ideal student is. She even tells her clients to draw a picture of that kid, or if it’s a real kid, take a picture of that kid, and paste it on your wall. If it’s a real kid, talk with them and let them describe to you their ideal “school”.
Jenna asks how the schools look on a day to day basis in terms of curriculum and facilitators. Mara says there’s a really broad range. She says there’s a number of microschools embracing the non-compulsory, democratic model like Sudbury schools, but there are also some who use curriculum in a light way. She has some school owners who use an online math and reading curriculum for the core foundational skills, but there are also those who let the kids master those skills organically too. They create lessons where and when they’re needed based on the needs of the students. The way Mara likes to work with micro school owners is to ensure the business is grounded and viable, the day to day and curriculum is really up to the owners and the needs of the community and students. Most of the owners look at offering a whole-person approach, addressing the mind, body and spirit. They don’t simply focus on academics. There’s an emphasis on spending time outdoors, doing physical activities, learning how to eat well, traveling, student leadership, conflict resolution, and sometimes religion (depending on the school). Jenna adds that she feels like most educators of today, including her, would like education to be geared toward the wellbeing of the whole child, not just their academic “success”.
Mara says that within her circle of people in the education system, she sees a block in people’s thinking, where they just can’t get past the scope and sequence of what a child must learn in a year’s time. She doesn’t get why people think there is only one way for kids to be taught or one type of learning that they all should have access to. Mara mentions how we are failing to prepare kids in public schools to question things and then later when they come upon a piece of news, they aren’t able to look into the source and evaluate what story is being told here. Jenna adds that schools offer no way for students to actually participate in the world and scrutinize it because it’s such a controlled environment.
Mara talks about how kids figure out what they have to do to get A’s and get their work done so they can feel good about themselves and so that their parents don’t hassle them. They go through the motions and they are not learning to think critically, they’re not learning how to have civil discourse, and how to vet sources and resources. She explains how microschools offer students the time and flexibility to talk about important world events as they come up. Jenna adds that there’s also no bell, so students can talk for as long as they deem necessary. Although microschools do have a general rhythm to their day, they all vary. For example, one of the microschool owners has a one hour window of time where the kids can arrive at school. The first hour they spend doing service work, like repairing things in the school or caring for the school’s animals. After that, they have tea and time for journaling. It’s a very gentle start to the day. This, as opposed to entering the room and starting a math lesson.
Jenna asks how Mara supports the microschool owners once they’re up and running and they have students. She says she offers two levels of service; one where she helps the business owner get their ideas on paper and the other is a membership group called the collective. They meet weekly, they get technical support in business, marketing, HR, and legal counsel. They are planning to meet once a year in person and find ways for kids to travel to one another's schools. The owners share resources with each other as well. The kids from all schools also meet via Zoom once a week too.
Jenna asks Mara if she has a favorite microschool that has been built under the microschool builders umbrella. Mara says she doesn’t have a favorite, but she can share some of her favorite things about some of the microschools so far. One of them does weekly skateboarding and surfing in Southern Florida. They are location independent, so students do all of their academic work online, independently and then participate in the in-person meetups too. They go on field trips together regularly - kayaking and farm plots are just a couple of examples. She has clients with schools that focus on the Sloyd principles and a couple which incorporate the outdoors into most of what they do. So, it varies a lot.
Jenna asks if Mara sees microschools gaining popularity worldwide or if it’s a US phenomenon. She says yes, it’s absolutely going up. There are other organizations doing similar work - helping people create microschools in their communities. They have a different focus. Acton Academy is one of them which began in Texas and has over 200 schools all over the globe. She says their ideal client would be a couple of parents who want to build a school where their kids can attend. She says she is getting calls from Australia, Europe and South America. It’s definitely a worldwide trend - people are craving small schools.
Mara mentions Clubhouse being a place where she’s met microschool owners. Jenna adds that she can’t seem to get into Clubhouse. It takes up so much time and feels like a huge time suck. Mara agrees, it takes a lot of discipline, but she acknowledges how wonderful it can be as a resource and a place to spread your message about self-directed education and create an awareness about microschools. Mara says one of her personal challenges is to not just talk about the future of education, but to take action.
Mara sincerely hopes that with the growing number of microschools up and running, the public education system might stop what they’re doing and decide that smaller, more personalized education, based in the community might actually benefit kids more.
Mara talks about how she looks for clients who already understand the student autonomy piece, because the rest (the entrepreneur skill set) can be learned. Jenna laughs about how Mara’s role is precisely what self-directed learning promotes. Mara says, that’s exactly what she wants to happen is for the owners to do the same thing she’s doing with them for their students - she plays into their strengths and facilitates their passions. Mara says her work is so rewarding. She never thought she’d be using her school running skills she acquired from the school district to help individuals build their own schools.
Jenna asks Jessica if there was a specific moment in her teaching career where she felt like something wasn’t working or she didn’t agree with the way things were done in the conventional school system? Jessica said she started out her teaching career teaching kindergarten. She was on a team of seven kindergarten teachers and found it difficult to implement some of her own ideas in the classroom because the more experienced teachers weren’t willing to try new things. They were stuck in their ways and not open to change. She found that difficult. She also said there were times when kids were labeled “difficult” or “low performing” based on the fact that they couldn’t sit at their desk for hours or didn’t know their ABC’s. Parents questioned her about that, and Jessica didn’t have a good answer for the parents. She was just doing what she was directed to do. She had a student in kindergarten who could already read, but couldn’t sit still. A third grade student she once had was an avid reader and would read his book during instruction. Jessica wanted to let him read his book, but felt as a public school teacher her job was to make sure he paid attention during her lessons, otherwise he’d miss something important. After she had her twins, she realized she couldn’t return to work in a traditional school setting. She didn’t want her own girls to be a part of the system, so she couldn’t imagine teaching in it herself. She thought about sending her girls to alternative schools like Montessori or Waldorf, but again, that wouldn’t give her kids the opportunity to really decide for themselves which learning style best suits them.
Jenna adds that she and her kids toured several schools as well; Montessori, Waldorf, and a Free School in Frankfurt. She says there seems to be an evolution that occurs in parents and educators where they realize kids don’t need them in order to learn. Some take a more gradual approach toward self directed education, while others dive right in from the very beginning. Jenna adds that having your own kids really helps you to see that kids are learning all the time and are naturally curious.
For Jessica, one of her “aha” moments was while listening to episode 11 and 12 of the podcast where Naomi Fisher talked about how even Waldorf or Forest Schools can offer a great alternative for kids who enjoy that style of learning, but again, it has its limitations because it doesn’t suit all learners. The best thing we can do is find the environment which is best suited for the individual needs of each child.
Jenna adds that as parents we need to be open to offering all the educational possibilities to our kids and let them decide for themselves which educational experiences are best for them. Whether that be through a Waldorf education or homeschooling, it’s our kids' journey not ours. We need to trust them to make the right decision for themselves and learn to adapt to them as their needs change. Holding back options from our kids is contradictory to an unschooling mindset because it’s a form of control. Jenna’s daughter decided to go back to school because she missed structure, working with classmates and having a set curriculum. She felt out of control when all the decisions fell on her shoulders. It was just too much.
Jenna can relate to her daughter’s needs for structure. Jenna says that when she went into entrepreneurship, she realized it wasn’t the best working environment for her. It requires a lot of self-determination, motivation, and keeping to a self-inflicted schedule. This is hard for her. If she was able to do her job as an employee, she thinks she’d probably prefer it because she thrives in environments where the schedule is set, her goals are clearly stated, and she’s surrounded by inspiring colleagues. Just as adults are given the chance to try varying work environments, children need the same freedom to explore educational environments and see which ones work for them.
Jessica says she thinks it’s so great that Jenna is giving her daughter the chance to discover what’s best for her. Jenna adds that she had the example laid out before her by her mother, who always let her make her own choices about school and trusted her as a teen. It was just the norm in her house growing up.
Jenna asks Jessica to share her first takeaway from the episode with Heidi Dusek, episode 020. Jessica’s first takeaway was how she related to Heidi’s comment about becoming a mom and feeling the pressure to decide between motherhood and adventure. We’re told in our society that we should get adventuring out of our system before we have kids, but Jessica thinks you can keep adventure in your life throughout parenthood. It goes in phases. Sometimes adventure just looks like going out to eat with your baby in their carseat. She shares how once her twin girls were one year old, they took a trip to Hawaii and it was tough, but the memories of that trip are still fun and she’s still glad they went.
Jenna talks about Heidi’s definition of adventure being any new experience or anything that feels a bit like a risk or that you could fail at it. Based on that definition, Jenna’s very first adventure as a mom was an outing to Walgreens with her son. It felt really risky at the time and she was swelling with pride when she got home.
Jenna’s first takeaway was about creating an environment where the kids can thrive. Jenna tries to offer up opportunities (without expectations) that lets the kids do what they will with it.
Jessica mentions her next takeaway was when Heidi mentioned how the community is a resource for our kids and provides our kids with meaningful social interactions. She also likes how Heidi mentioned the studies showing why some families don’t adventure together; in that study, parents revealed that they are afraid of not having the answers to their kids’s questions and refrain from adventuring with their kids because of it. Jessica notes how that’s similar to parents thinking they can’t homeschool because they lack the knowledge to teach their kids everything they may want to know. Jenna talks about how we need to rely on experts in our community to fill in the gaps where we aren’t able to instruct our kids, or learn it together. New experiences are not only useful to kids, but they can serve as valuable learning opportunities for the entire family.
Jenna talks about how being a parent of an 11 and 13 year old, she has to find ways to create shared experiences with her kids where everyone is a willing participant and that gets harder as kids get older. At least, that’s been her experience. They all have different interests and ways they like to spend their time. A shared adventure for her, may look like trying to play Fortnite with her son or doing a makeover with her daughter. Sometimes a fun shared experience comes from the parent taking risks or being uncomfortable, not the children.
Jessica says how she liked in the last episode how Heidi and Jenna talked about spending smaller chunks of time together that are meaningful as opposed to setting a specific amount of time to hang out together. She thought Heidi’s comment about quitting an activity while everyone is still having fun was a really valuable tip and a great reminder to parents to be flexible and adjust your expectations.
Jenna says there’s a real balance we need to strike because we know our kids, and that’s what makes each or our experiences unique. Sometimes our kids are not in a good mood, or aren’t dressed well for the weather, and it’s okay to end the trip early. But alternatively, we also know when our kids could benefit from a gentle nudge to keep going. Jenna shares a couple examples of when her kids have needed an early finish and times when everyone was having a good time despite the adventure taking way longer than anticipated.
Jenna mentions how Heidi talked about her experience with lockdown sort of gave her a peek into the world of homeschooling and provided her with the time to get to know her kids better. Jenna wonders how many families had a similar experience, because lockdown definitely played a role in kick starting the self-directed learning journey for her own family. Jessica says she has talked with so many families who found the system inflexible and learned that there are alternative methods to educate their children than through conventional schools, so she knows Jenna and Heidi are not alone. A lot of families saw their kids deep dive into hobbies and interests that they otherwise didn’t have time for. Families got a chance to get to know one another better.
Jenna says that she was frustrated when people argued that school is necessary for kids to have social lives, because school does NOT have to be the sole provider of social interaction. Jessica said her experience teaching actually illustrated how socialization in schools is oftentimes a negative experience. For example, she had a 3rd grade girl bullied for her weight on the playground. There are so many ways for kids to socialize, and homeschooling provides socialization across age groups and backgrounds, which research shows is actually better for kids. Jenna says she likes that homeschooling provides kids with the option to choose who they spend their time with, as opposed to being subjected to forced socialization where it can actually be detrimental to their wellbeing. (ie; bullying, criticism, austrosizing) Jessica thinks many adults can’t recall what type of socialization went on in schools and are slightly out of touch since they aren’t working in schools. Most of the time, teachers are actually discouraging socialization in the classroom because they have a curriculum to get through. Or, socialization is forced and controlled. Many times, there are negative consequences for students when they do want to socialize in class.
Jenna liked Heidi’s question for her kids; “what do you want this experience to look like?” Jessica also mentions how she liked the idea of creating “to go” bags or bins so you can just get up and go. She also thinks it’s important though, even with all that forethought and planning, to keep some level of spontaneity in your life. She mentions the book “Memory Making Mom” by Jessica Smartt as a great inspirational book for adventure, tradition, and spontaneity. As a planner, Jessica needs reminders to be spontaneous and flexible at times, so she found the book very helpful.
Jenna feels like her family doesn’t have any traditions to speak of. They change things up every single year, and she says as a multicultural family that’s moved to three different countries, she finds it difficult to repeat traditions year after year. It’s something she wants to work on because she does think they’re important. Jessica feels like simple adventures can become amazing traditions, and a bit unconventional. You have to see what comes up naturally for your family and not put pressure on yourself to do it every single year. Jenna laughs about how she doesn’t think her family has any traditions, but she’ll let the audience know if she thinks of one.
Jessica liked the simplicity of the RV trip Heidi and her family went on. Jessica’s family has recently downsized and they live very simply, so that part of the interview really resonated with her. Jenna agrees, she says the more stuff you have, the more stuff you have to take care of. Since her family has moved so many times, they have to keep their possessions to a minimum too.
You can connect with Jessica on Instagram @jessicamcgough. Jessica also wants to let the audience know about InspirEd, a global online event hosted by Galileo Online School. The event will be for parents and educators looking toward alternative and forward-thinking educational models, like self-directed learning. Some of the guest speakers for the event will be Kerry McDonald, Naomi Fisher, Peter Gray, Pat Farenga, and Michael Saylor. Go here for more info about that event and to register for the inspirEd global summit. (Register before July 12th and it’s free!)
Jenna asks Heidi for practical and easy ways families can incorporate adventure into their lives, particularly right now during the pandemic. Heidi says it starts with intentionality - having a list of possible things the family can do when there is spare time, so they can refer back to it when boredom strikes. An example she gave is that her family decided to have a whole weekend around the theme; apples. Her family came up with lots of ideas about how to incorporate apples into their weekend, like cooking with apples, shooting apples with a bow, and dunking for apples. She doesn’t always do a lot of planning, so on unplanned weekends she refers to the list.
It’s also helped her family explore local attractions. She found many great places just in her area within 20-50 miles.
Jenna asked if Heidi’s family keeps bags of essentials prepared and ready to go? Heidi says they definitely do. They started out with a beach bag and added a hiking bag and camping bin to the “ready to go in under 10 minutes’ essentials. They also have a weekender checklist. Jenna wonders, is part of the success of adventure, being prepared? Heidi says yes and no. There’s room for both.
Jenna shares how her and her husband are never really fully prepared when they go on outings, yet they make it work and ultimately learn a lesson every single time they have an adventure. That’s one of the best things about adventuring, is the lessons learned along the way. Heidi shares a story of when her and her husband assumed that all their kids had all put shoes on when they left to go camping, but one of her kids hadn’t. Luckily they had a pair of crocs in the car (in the aforementioned beach bag). The unpredictability of adventure is what makes it fun. Jenna shares how her family went on a trip to Tenerife with friends and although she had checked the weather, it was a weather station at the top of the volcano on the island. Jenna had packed clothing for temperatures in the 50’s but it turned out to be really warm there. She had to buy some tank tops and she laughs about that now.
Jenna asks, how do you include your kids in the adventure planning? First off, Heidi prefaces her suggestions with the fact that she doesn’t feel like an expert, she only shares what has worked for her family. You all know your kids best and can better determine their strengths and weaknesses. She looks at fare sales, and then gives her kids a few options. Each of her kids have different interests and goals for adventuring. She asks them, “What excites you about these places?” and “What do you want this experience to look like?” Heidi adds that her role in adventuring with her kids is to provide the environment where they can thrive, not necessarily plan out each detail of the process. Jenna adds that the people in those environments provide our kids with more knowledge and insight that we (as in just the parents) can offer.
Asking locals for directions or recommendations is a great way for kids to learn communication skills and become more comfortable talking with people of all ages, cultures, etc. Engaging with local communities is part of the learning process. It also provides children with an opportunity to interact with strangers safely.
Jenna asks, do you ever split up to accommodate everyone’s needs and interests? Heidi says, “yes!” She points out that it’s actually great sometimes for the kids to separate because they had a nice break from each other. Jenna adds that her family has a lot to talk about when they do different things. Heidi says sometimes her kids get FOMO after splitting up and hearing what the others got to do, but it’s a great moment for them to reflect on their choices. Jenna thinks it’s also a great opportunity to change plans for the next few days to incorporate that activity. Jenna’s family loved white water rafting and she thinks they should have scheduled more of that on their trip to Colorado. Heidi cautions though that sometimes it’s great to end an activity when everyone is still having fun.
Jenna asks what ways does Heidi think that adventuring creates a better family connection. Without all of the distractions of daily life, she feels like she gets to really get to talk with and learn from each other. It also creates a shared experience. Heidi adds that not all experiences are good ones, but they are great moments to build trust with each other. Jenna adds that those crappy moments give us a great opportunity for parents to model how to deal with those sticky situations. Heidi adds that she has seen a lot of generosity in those difficult moments as well.
Jenna asks, what are some adventures families can do without leaving their neighborhood? Heidi gives an example of how her family made luminaries out of ice and rings of fruit for the birds. They try to think about things that will get them outside. They also do family game nights - her daughter recently chose kickball. Days ago, they went ice skating on a pond in their neighborhood. Jenna feels like the thought of a specific time allotment for adventure can be off putting. She says some of her best moments with her kids are in small incremental time slots throughout the day. She feels like forced game nights and activities are not superior to short, but authentic moments of connection. Heidi says yes, keep it simple!
Jenna asks, why do some families not embrace adventure or outdoor activities? Heidi says over 50% of parents surveyed said they don’t adventure with their kids for fear of not knowing the answer to something their kids ask them. Our culture and the public education system create this “need to know the answers” mentality. The current research showing the brain's neuroplasticity is another reason why it’s so important to adventure. New experiences help our brains form new connections.
Jenna says that as self-directed learners, we know how following our curiosity is so important, but she knows from experience that we can also get into slumps and wonder, “what else can I do?” It’s always important to try new things.
Jenna asks, what is the most memorable trip you’ve had with your family? Heidi said living in an RV was such a great learning experience. It was such a simple life. It was an eye opener. Life is so complicated and going back to a simple lifestyle made her realize it’s more about sharing moments together than anything else. They are very curious now about an RV lifestyle. Many of her best memories came from moments in their adventure that weren’t planned for, like witnessing a moose fight in the Tetons after snowshoeing.
Jenna remembers a time when her family stayed in a small, bare bones cabin and it really made her reflect on their lifestyle too. It made her realize nothing really matters as much as the connection with each other.
Heidi enjoyed quarantine time because she got to spend more time with her kids. Both her and her husband are thinking about homeschooling permanently because the structure is really limiting and uninspiring. We don’t do school well. We aren’t the teacher-pleaser kind of people. Heidi’s son started up 4-5 new hobbies with all the free time he had during quarantine. He isn’t thriving in the school environment. They are thinking about worldschooling, taking a year off, or something else.
Heidi and her family are thinking about an RV trip or Hawaii in the future.
Jenna relates to Sue’s journey, as she also felt like there were distinct phases which led them toward an unschooling approach.
Jenna asks Sue to talk about her first takeaway from last week’s show with Lucy AitkenRead, which was centered around children’s rights and the third wave of unschooling.
Sue liked the emphasis on children’s rights because she agrees that children just don’t have rights in today’s society. She shares a fascinating story of when she was asked to volunteer in a middle school. She had a group of student’s, whom she was meant to teach viola and violin to. They were completely disrespectful, even walking out of the classroom and calling her names. She was at a loss for what to do. Finally, she just asked them, “why are you here?” The kids’ reply was, “do you think we have a choice to be here?” This was a loud and clear message for Sue that kids don’t have choices and are not respected. This is the reason for their behavior. They are forced into subjects and classrooms, even if they have no interest in learning the material. Ultimately, this experience convinced Sue that her son should not attend school.
Jenna relates to that experience so much. She says she reflects often on her experiences in the classroom, and wonders what she was doing there. She spent countless hours trying to make her lessons more engaging and more interesting than what the kids would actually rather be doing. But ultimately, she wishes she could have just asked them what they want to do and what they are interested in.
Sue says we can learn a lot from looking back at our own childhoods. Many of the harshest things Sue remembers being said to her during her childhood, came from the lips of adults. A lot of the time, she thinks the way we talk to children gets passed on from generation to generation.
Jenna adds that this is why deschooling is so important. It gives you a chance to reflect on your anger, fear and frustration. It helps you to better control your knee-jerk reactions and get to the bottom of how your emotions influence your reactions. It’s a lot of work and takes time. Jenna shares how she felt a lot of rage when her kids were young. She noticed it was partially an assumption that her kid’s behavior was ill intended on their part. Muddying the kitchen floor, for her, was seen as disrespectful. After loads of reflection and heaps of daily practice, she was able to change how she viewed these behaviors, and thereby freeing her from the rage.
Sue shares a similar experience. Her son used to ride his bike around the neighborhood, up and down people’s driveways and take off. Sue was really angry, but realized that anger was a result of her feeling fearful that he would get hit by a car. Her solution was to find a safer place for him to ride his bike.
Jenna shares a few of her favorite resources for peaceful parenting and consent-based education. Jenna says learning more about children’s rights and respecting children supports our efforts of putting it into practice. (See “resources mentioned in today’s show” at the bottom of this page for all the links.
Jenna shares a quote from Lucy’s episode that really resonated with her and got her “all fired up.” “And until we recognize that and change it, all the charities in the world trying to work on human rights stuff are just peeing into the wind because this stuff has to begin on day one with our children. This has to be a generational shift that recognizes and honors children as valuable, worthy members of society. Otherwise we’re not going to see those shifts towards empathy and respect that will change everything.” “And until we recognize that and change it, all the charities in the world trying to work on human rights stuff are just peeing into the wind because this stuff has to begin on day one with our children. This has to be a generational shift that recognizes and honors children as valuable, worthy members of society. Otherwise we’re not going to see those shifts towards empathy and respect that will change everything.”
Sue adds that she loves that quote too, and the key is talking to our children and asking them what they need. It starts with the parents. She felt like there was really nothing she could do by volunteering for one hour in the middle school orchestra. It was much deeper than that.
Jenna reflects on how she remembers learning about classroom management in her Elementary Education program. The answer to “classroom management” is so obvious to her now. It starts with respect. If the teacher is respectful of her students and truly values them, then “classroom management” is a non-issue.
Sue mentions how much she liked Lucy’s comment in the show about how teenagers have a fire that can change everyone’s lives, but people are sadly afraid of that. She believes teenagers are so capable and she sees compassion in them.
Jenna says she was scared of the teen years upon entering them, as many people are, based on societal perceptions. She discovered though, that her connection with her kids is only growing and the intellectual conversations are fun and she really values their opinions.
Something Jenna may not have articulated clearly in the episode with Lucy AitkenRead - families have their own sets of values. Values shape how we live our lives. That may mean we eat plant-based, attend church services, travel the world, or volunteer in our communities. Many of these actions will inadvertently shape our children’s own values and perceptions as they grow. And in this way, we DO HAVE to acknowledge that parents control certain elements of our children’s lives. Where it gets tricky for me, and where some parents may begin to feel unsure about the line between autonomy and. community, is when our kids push up against our own personal core values or boundaries. They want to eat meat, jump on the furniture, spend their entire day playing video games, etc. But this, at least for me, is where unschooling can be so valuable to parents. We are well versed in our kids’ needs, abilities, and preferences. We’ve spent time developing trusting relationships with them where they feel respected and trusted to do the right thing. Unschooling is our superpower. All of these extraordinary advantages guide us to making informed decisions based on respect and community well being. And something we need to remember about that, is that our family decisions will vary so wildly from one another. Just because we all unschool, does not mean our families share all the same core values and that our children all have the same needs. That would be ridiculous, and is probably why most of us left public school systems, because we KNOW humans are unique and therefore require unique environments to thrive. So basically, I guess what I’m saying is, If we want to resolve conflict in a way that honors our own family’s needs, we'll have to search within our own family for the answers, not rely on a set of rules. And we need to be flexible, ready to adapt as needed.
Lucy adds that in one traditional culture, teenagers leave their town and change their name. Sometimes you need to physically move away from your heritage, reputation, beliefs and values in order to step into the new invitation in your life. It’s a grand gesture. It is important and significant and symbolically represents a whole new leaf that you’re turning.
Jenna says that she thinks she wouldn’t have had the courage to leap into this lifestyle had she stayed in her hometown. She remembers seeing a documentary about a ritual in Africa, in which the community members who are approaching adulthood are taken away from the village for some time and while they’re away, the village builds them a house. When they return, they’re presented with the house and are now seen as adult members of society. It’s a really important moment in their lives.
Lucy adds, it feels so important to have these communal rituals. She says it’s no wonder our industrialized, capitalist society has so many problems when our culture is devoid of these rituals. It’s so obvious.
Shifting gears, Jenna asks Lucy to describe Childism. Lucy says that childism is a form of prejudice, a manifestation of ageism. It’s a marginalisation of children. Jenna asks, how would it impact our society if children were respected and treated as humans? Lucy says it would be one of the most transformational things to happen to our society, because if you’re raised with a sense of your own rights and dignity you will then treat others with that same respect, worth, and value. It’s also really influential on home education because you can maybe be doing all of the right things in terms of learning and education, but if you don’t believe that children are worthy of rights and dignity, then that will leak out and affect how children learn and the classroom culture. Jenna adds that children’s rights are so fundamental to self-directed learning, and you can’t really have one without the other. Lucy says you’d just be undermining the child’s sense of direction and self-determination because you don’t actually believe that they have everything they need within them.
There are simple things we do every day to undermine a child, Jenna asks if there are any examples Lucy can think of. Lucy says one that is really obvious is adults doing things to children; putting on clothes, picking them up, etc. Lucy says one way of respecting even an infant's autonom is by letting them know when you’re going to pick them up and giving them a chance to respond, either physically or verbally. When they’re toddlers, make sure they can see your face and hear your voice when engaging with them about getting their clothes on, picking them up or taking them somewhere. A good way to think about your actions is to ask yourself, “Would I like this done to me?”
Jenna mentions how comical it actually sounds when you think of another adult pulling you by the arm. It’s akin to a man telling a woman to smile when they’re walking down the street. Lucy says it’s another one of the hierarchies we have in our society, which is that men get to tell random female strangers in the street to cheer up or to smile. Sexism sits right alongside childism.
Lucy’s advocacy for children really started to unfold when she was working for the NGO sector and noticed the total blindness to the very many ways that our society is infringing on children’s rights. Colleagues of hers would say these blanket statements like, “Oh, I just hate children.” Lucy realized that children really are one of the last groups of people in society where you can just come out and say, “I hate ….” “And until we recognize that and change it, all the charities in the world trying to work on human rights stuff are just peeing into the wind because this stuff has to begin on day one with our children. This has to be a generational shift that recognizes and honors children as valuable, worthy members of society. Otherwise we’re not going to see those shifts towards empathy and respect that will change everything.”
Jenna states that Lucy makes such a great point. She’s never considered how people view children before. Jenna points out that teenagers are marginalized most. Lucy asks, “What if we lived in a paradigm based on connection, based on the idea that our wellness is wrapped up in the wellness of other people, that really we are one throbbing being; all of humankind. We can strip away the labels.” Teenagers play an important role in challenging society. They have a fire that can ignite the change we need to see.
Jenna was thinking about how much is missed out on by keeping teens busy with things adults have decided for them. It’s such a shame, and it’s a missed opportunity for creativity, innovation, and contributions from this age group to our society. Lucy adds that it’s no wonder that so much self-combustion happens during the teenage years if that’s the only way we can honor their being. Jenna points out that by having teens in institutions all day, it strips away any opportunity for them to contribute to society in a meaningful way until they’re in their 20’s.
Lucy was truant a lot in her teenage years, and for a long time she thought she was just naughty. Now, she realizes how her teenage self was right in removing herself from a toxic place. Jenna shares how her son, at age 13, has such a great awareness of what he can and can’t handle. He recognizes the need for rest, and is respectful of his own needs. She was very proud of him for that because it’s a skill that many people never really learn. Lucy says it’s so beautiful and how sad it is that he experienced physical pain from the stress of an institution. Lucy says she has shared a lot about the trauma of school. She gets a lot of comments on social media about how schools aren’t that way anymore and their school is a really positive experience for their children, but Lucy points out that on the whole, it’s still a system that’s problematic and it really hasn’t changed that much. She shares how a teacher friend of hers is expected to dole out detentions for his students who don’t wear their sports socks to P.E. The missing piece is still that children are worthy of rights and dignity.
Jenna asks about the third wave of unschooling… is there one? How is unschooling changing? Lucy hopes that the audience will contribute to this conversation. Unschooling has been packaged up and named, yet it’s existed since the beginning of time. Children have always learned skills that were important to their culture, raising children without punishment and without a forced curriculum. This was the first wave of unschooling. Community wellbeing was at the forefront until industrialization. The second wave of unschooling happened in the 70’s and 80’s and originated from John Holt’s ideas about learning. Consent and autonomy were pulled out from that wave. There was a shift politically toward free markets and privatization. Neoliberalism pushed for individualism, as opposed to societal wellbeing. Lucy wonders if this influenced the unschooling movement in a way that led toward individual freedom at the cost of community wellbeing. The conversation now is centered around how freedom and equality are at work in our unschooling currently. She feels like we are possibly entering a new era that is trying to bring together the idea of autonomy and sovereignty being important, but also honoring the community and trying to create a self-determination that happens amidst community. She recommends the book, Raising Free People by Akilah Richards. Akilah Richards describes this concept in her book as compassionate autonomy. The book really sums up where we’re at now and what the invitations are for unschoolers. Lucy feels like it could be a third wave of unschooling. Lucy believes that so often conflict within the unschooling community stems from families not agreeing on what to expect from children and what they can manage.
Jenna shares that for her, she has a real conflict about autonomy vs. parental responsibility and she mentions how labels (like unschooling) can sometimes make people feel excluded if they aren’t abiding by all the principles of the group, and then create self-doubt on the side of the person not checking all the boxes within that label. For Jenna, it was difficult to find the balance between keeping her children safe and healthy, while still offering them autonomy. Lucy says it’s probably a really common experience. Lucy asks that when Jenna peered into unschooling, was there too much child-centeredness and too much forgetting of parent’s needs? Jenna says it’s not just the lack of emphasis on parent’s needs, but also the lack of a parental role in keeping them healthy and safe. An example is that if your child ate candy all day, it would mean that the parent is not protecting their child’s health. Jenna feels like she has a responsibility to her children to keep them healthy, as she would do for herself. In the second wave of unschooling, Lucy thinks that there is a really strong sense that there is only one way of unschooling, and it requires absolute autonomy even at great cost for some families. Lucy has experienced the power of abundant thinking in her home, where you're not creating a scarcity mindset. So, for example, if you have chocolate in all of the drawers in your home, the kids don’t want to eat chocolate all day because there are much yummier things that their bodies desire, but in some homes that would be a catastrophe. But that doesn’t mean that those families aren’t unschooling and doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get to experience the support and inspiration that can come when you are within an unschooling movement. Lucy says it pains her to know that there are people out there who weren’t able to feel the cultural identity, love and respect that can be found within unschooling communities because they didn’t feel worthy of the label because they weren’t unschooling in the way that those online groups, forums and blogs seem to think is the only way to unschool.
Jenna describes an example from an interview she did with a grown unschooler where the mother made the decision to take away a specific video game from her brother because it was causing stress in the home and she didn’t like the aggression it brought about in her son. Lucy says, who are we to judge if it brought about more peace and deepened the connection and the honesty within the home, that is incredible. Jenna says that she wants to keep relationships at the forefront of her mind during the course of her unschooling journey. That may mean eliminating something from our home or altering it, but that’s sort of irrelevant. Lucy adds that if the foundation of your home is based on children’s rights, you won’t have a situation in which the adult is making authoritarian decisions because you’ll be leaning into each conflict, analyze your reaction and feelings, you’ll have honest and transparent dialog back and forth with your kids, and together you’ll muddle through it. Lucy would like to see in the third wave of unschooling that unschooling families embrace children’s rights that each family can be absolutely trusted to embody the principles of unschooling as best they can with the most shared power and respect of their children - a lot more trust and a lot less judgement.
An example Jenna shares is how her son articulated a goal of him not swearing while playing video games. After weeks of discussion back and forth about how to address this problem in their home, her son is making an effort to stop swearing because it affects everyone in the home. This is a good example of how community wellbeing is an essential part of unschooling life. She adds that conflict and friction are part of their home. She adds that everyone may handle the same situation differently and that’s okay if it feels like it’s working for them. One thing Jenna feels she has learned in the last seven years of traveling and living in different cultures from her own is that the human experience is unique. Every person has their own way of experiencing the world and a lot can be learned from each other because of it. Shaming people does not bring about change or evolution of any kind.
Lucy shares how conflict and friction are not problems. It does not mean that it is all going wrong. Lucy focused on joy above everything at the beginning of her unschooling journey. And although she is still committed to joy, she embraces conflict and sees conflict and tension as an invitation to get more intimate with each other. Jenna feels like sometimes joy comes as a result of conflict. Lucy shares a quote from Walt Whitman, “We contain multitudes,” meaning we’re conflictual beings and we contain peace, joy, grief, frustration and peace all at the same time, as do our homes and children. There is a surrender that comes from knowing it’s all part of us, existing simultaneously.
Jenna asks, “what piece of advice can you leave listeners with who are unschooling or beginning their journey but are dealing with fear in some capacity?”
Lucy says that fear is completely and utterly NORMAL. We are a school-fixated culture. School is the provider of almost all social relationships. So to do something outside of it, is an incredibly radical decision which takes a huge amount of courage. “Unschooling wobbles” as Lucy refers to them as, are completely normal. A few techniques to deal with our fear is through affirmations, breathing, and self-kindness practices. Befriending fear is important too. Get curious about it. Give fear the respect it’s asking from you. Tap into support systems and watch inspiring content on YouTube. Fear is like conflict, if we get curious about it, it’s an incredible opportunity for self-learning and healing. There are so many layers to peel back and wounds that can be healed from getting to know it.
Jenna adds that the lack of efficiency in schools helped reveal to her husband how unschooling could actually work and that by practicing academic skills for years (that their son had already mastered) was a big waste of his time.
Jenna talks about the research illustrating how 4 hours of work is sufficient and how assigning specific hours to our learning time is virtually impossible since we all have different times of day in which we're productive, particularly if you’re talking about doing hard work. More info about “The Making of an Expert” can be found here. (not mentioned in the show, but I found it relevant to SDE nonetheless.) Jenna feels like she didn’t have enough practice as a child and young adult in setting her own goals and then planning out how she could achieve them. She wonders how this may have helped her now in her entrepreneurial endeavors. Erin has always sought out entrepreneurial positions where she feels like she has some autonomy. She acknowledges some of that might be attributed to her personality, but she also remembers having some of her best ideas and creative thoughts outside of school, while on the bus home.
Regarding socialization, Erin agrees that school doesn’t provide a better environment for interactions with diverse populations than home education. In her experience as a homeschooling mom, there was ample opportunity for her kids to socialize with people of all races, religions, and especially socioeconomic statuses. She’s often seen people buy houses or move houses to live in a better school district, so people are purposefully avoiding diverse schools if they can afford to.
Erin adds that many people think of home education happening within the home and only amongst family, but she calls it a myth. Jenna’s experience this year, albeit unique because she’s living abroad, has lead to many conversations about different customs in the Uk vs. USA. She feels like homeschooling allows you the opportunity to seek out experiences with a variety of people, even more so than school can. Erin adds that although some aren’t exposed to a variety of cultural and diverse experiences when they’re young, it doesn't mean that they won’t or can’t later on in life. She refers back to a quote from the last episode where Jenna points out that there really is no expiration to learning. You always have the opportunity to travel and learn about people and places at any time in your life. Jenna says that’s a good argument for schools to not offer diverse learning environments, because kids can always learn it on their own time when they’ve graduated.
Jenna’s second takeaway had to do with a quote from Peter Theil’s book “Zero to One” that Zak mentioned. It referred to competition leading to complete and utter apathy toward their goals. Jenna experienced this with her photography career. It is highly competitive and she remembers the creativity and idea generation plummeting when she’d be surrounded by other talented photographer’s work.
Erin talks about an author she heard discussing how when she’s writing, she purposefully cocoons herself from other’s work so she can keep her ideas original. Jenna talks about how her daughter also feels a degree of intimidation upon seeing expert level work from others and sort of shuts down because she fears that the only reason the person has successful work is because she has an innate ability. It seems to Jenna, that her daughter sees talent in a very black or white manner, you either have it or you don’t. Jenna talks about how someone once told her that baby’s learn to walk, not by crawling, pulling themselves up and taking steps, but rather by falling down. She feels like school doesn’t give children room to make mistakes or fail because there is so much riding on their ability to perform.
Erin’s third takeaway is about the schooled mindset, which she interpreted as people going along life, completing all the various steps society expects from you and never considering another way due to the fear of it not being tried and true.
Erin shares how she walked into three separate libraries in her area just before school was meant to start for the year, and the book exhibits were full of resources and picture books about bullying and adjusting to school. Erin thought it was kind of odd that we’ve accepted this as part of what’s necessary for society. Jenna added that bullying is a result of how schools are organized, so it seems like a mute point to continue teaching about how to combat it. Erin also added that we’ll continue to need assemblies about bullying so long as we have such a high student-teacher ratio and we compare kids to their peers. Jenna compared it to healthcare and how we treat the symptom rather than the cause of the disease.
Jenna’s last takeaway was in regards to Zak’s advice about emailing hiring managers directly and finding mentors or apprenticeships as a way of gaining first-hand experience in the field you're interested in. She plans on encouraging her own kids to network with professionals working in the careers they are eager to have one day. First, she hopes to give her kids numerous opportunities to work alongside adults so that her kids feel comfortable and confident interacting with people older than them. Erin describes two examples of mentorships that were particularly nice for her kids, one with an artist and another in woodworking. Jenna would like to find a mentor for her son involving coding and game development. Her daughter began a mentorship with a pet sitter before the pandemic started and Jenna found that it offered more than just information about pets for her daughter, she learned so much from her conversations with the mentor. Sadly, she didn’t get to continue because of the lockdowns.
Jenna is noticing a transition with her kids, where meeting up with a large group of other home education families is not fulfilling the needs of her kids. They are yearning for connection with people who have similar interests as them. Erin points out that sometimes those mentorship experiences can provide a much richer form of social activity than a home ed group. Erin points out that a lot of people find connection and social engagement online these days. Jenna has noticed that her son feels comfortable and happy with his friends from Galileo and the gaming community, which is all online. She quit bringing him along to the home ed groups because they were not serving him in any way. Erin thinks there is often a bit of a bias towards extroverted and organized types of socialization.
The pattern which unfolded was that unschooled or homeschooled people were far more capable at self-directing in their jobs, and he found himself seeking them out. It also made him curious about the link between homeschooling and successful job placement. Zak started researching the history of education and how children learn. He named Peter Gray and John Taylor Gatto’s writings as being most helpful.
He remembers one particular experience where he spoke with the CEO of a company where he was trying to place young adults without degrees in jobs at the company. The job description in the job advertisement said “degree or equivalent work experience required” and he asked the CEO what he meant by that. The CEO said equivalent work experience meant just a semester of work experience, so 4-6 months. He explicitly told Zak that someone would learn more about the business by spending time in the company than they would at university. The degree is nothing more than a filter. It is not a leading indicator of a good hire.
Jenna asks Zak why his company only hires degreeless adults. Zak explains that he worked for the Peter Thiel Fellowship which gives away $100,000 to young adults with new business ideas to start a company rather than going to college. There’s a line in Peter Thiel’s book, “Zero to One” that reads elite students climb confidently until they reach competition sufficiently intense enough to beat their dreams out of them.
Jenna actually recalls when her daughter was preschool-aged, she was an amazing artist who did art because it was fun and she enjoyed the process so much. As soon as she entered the school system and began comparing her work to her peers, she stopped producing art and lost her individuality because she thought other people’s work was better than hers.
Zak adds that hyper-competition leads to people not pursuing their ideas and/or copying each other. Some of young people who were selected for this fellowship have gone on to develop things like Figma, OYO Rooms, Ethereum, Longevity Fund, and Luminar.
Jenna asks Zak about gatekeepers in the US being less prolific than in Europe. From her experience living in Europe, it still seems imperative for companies that young people get college degrees. Zak agrees that it’s used as a filtering mechanism for companies to weed through applicants. He doesn’t think it’s been all that successful for Europe though in producing innovative tech companies, with the exception of Spotify which was developed in Sweden. He points out that goals for US companies vary from European countries in that US companies are always striving for growth, whereas European companies are all about keeping pace and business sustainability.
Switching gears, Jenna asks Zak about his book “The End of School.” Zak explains that the book actually started as a personal challenge to write every day, once a day, for thirty days. That turned into a longer three month challenge. He says you naturally begin writing about the things that are on your mind at the time. He encourages people with knowledge and new perspectives to not be afraid to write about what they learn and not to self-censor too much. Jenna adds that this project is a perfect example really of how self-directed learning works, following your interests. That’s actually how the Rogue Learner podcast was born.
Zak talks about some of the problems he sees in traditional schools. He starts with talking about what he calls “the schooled mindset” which means students are looking at life in levels. They are essentially leveling up in life, yet each level does not promise anything “better.” He refers to Nathaniel Brandon who asserts that it’s not the achievement of a goal that makes people fulfilled, it’s the progress toward the achievement of meaningful goals. School has us reaching toward goals, but not meaningful ones. For example, we set goals in school like; land this job, get this promotion, pass this class, get that ‘A’ on the test. Jenna points out that a lot of the goals students are trying to achieve are set out by their parents as well. And to some degree, Zak points out that this comes from the pressure in our society where children’s success in life reflects back on their parents.
We’ve reached a point for the first time in society where two generations have been thoroughly schooled. Parents are expecting their kids to live better lives than themselves, but the metrics for which we measure “better lives” isn’t based on overall well being, life expectancy, etc., rather it’s primarily based on how credentialed they are. More credentials does not equate to better or more fulfilling lives, unfortunately.
Jenna adds that there is a lot of wasted time in school and it comes from the idea that we all learn in a linear fashion, which isn’t the case. There’s no expiration date for when a person can learn something. Zak feels as though he was able to become educated in spite of schooling not because of it.
Jenna mentions how the most engaged and curious students in her classroom most often were those kids who had access to diverse experiences and people in their home lives. The kids who went places on the weekends and enjoyed board games with grandparents on the weekend were the students who most enjoyed learning. With homeschooling, she feels that “the weekend” can be possible everyday. You can mix with various age groups, go to interesting places and spend time with your loved ones every single day if you want.
Zak says if he were given the choice between hiring a student who attended a magnet school and participated in a variety school-based extracurriculars vs. a homeschooled student who’d worked at Chick- Fila, he’d likely choose the latter. He adds that the reason is they would likely have the required soft skills necessary for their work. Jenna mentions how the soft skills are easier to acquire when you’re interacting daily with adults of all ages from varying backgrounds and experience levels, whereas in school you’ll likely only get the chance to talk with teachers in a top-down, authoritative situation. The teacher has a lot of control over the conversation in the classroom.
On the topic of socialization and diversity, Jenna says she finds it tragic that in most cases students are lumped together by zip code because it prohibits us from mixing with different races and socioeconomic classes than our own. In home education groups however, we are meeting with families from all different cultures and backgrounds from all over the county. The argument that combining disparate zip codes within a school district allows for diversity misses the reality that segregation still naturally occurs within the school itself. Zak says removing the geographical association with schools would be the best way to go forward, however it would generate an immense amount of pushback from teacher’s unions and property owners. Jenna states that school systems can’t truly be equal when they are geographically appropriated because the wealthier families will always have a leg up by being able to move to the more desired school districts. Zak adds that the argument that home education is expensive may not be as valid as families think when you consider the price for living in a “good school district.” Plus there are so many free resources available and even options for parents who both work full time.
Jenna asks, what are some ways parents can deschool, particularly those who want to trust in self-directed learning but find it challenging because of their schooled mindset? When a child begins to develop a curiosity and pursue it, deschooling has reached its end. Peter Gray’s work was transformation in bringing a language to this concept for Zak. Zak has seen most success in families where the parents have guardrails in place which allow students to access their interests by imploring them to use their own skills or money to access it, while also providing numerous opportunities for them to absorb information about their interests. An example of this would be Lenore Skenazy’s story from the Let Grow organization, who let her kid ride the subway home in New York and was dubbed America’s worst mom. Deschooling is hard sometimes, but be patient with yourself and your child.
Jenna asks what is the best way to prepare young adults for the ever-changing workplace? Zak says as many apprenticeships or mentoring opportunities as possible. Turn to hiring managers in the field you want to pursue for feedback on skills and requirements your students should be acquiring. Young adults should get really good at cold emailing people. You can sign up for Zak’s masterclass to learn how to write professional emails. Finding out how you can add value to the company and explicitly telling the hiring manager that, will help the company place you and give them an incentive to let you intern with them. You can find out what skills would add value to the company by doing a bit of homework in advance and acquiring those specific skills beforehand.
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