Today we're sharing an episode from another Big Questions Project podcast: Mother Is A Question. 

"This episode is called "Mother Is A Song," and we’re traveling to a place and time when mama was the muse–back when musicians in the U.S. were constantly singing about “the one who’s always true,” as one of these songs goes. One hundred years ago in the U.S., in the early days of recorded music, a lot of the songs people were listening to were about one particular person: mother. 

Thanks to Sarah Bryan, the Association for Cultural Equity, and to Dust to Digital for inspiring this episode.

Mother is a Question is created by Natasha Haverty and Julia Metzger-Traber

Our editor is Rob Rosenthal

Original Music by Raky Sastri and Julia Read"

If there's one music genre lampooned more than Christian rock, it might just be ska. And Christian ska? Expect next level ridicule. But a lovable band of misfits from Denver, Colorado managed to do something that might seem unthinkable: combine two maligned genres and become a cultural phenomenon with an enduring cult following. On the season two finale of Rock that Doesn't Roll, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the unlikely rise of Five Iron Frenzy, with insight from Leanor Ortega Till, aka "Jeff the Girl," aka the saxophonist from one of the best-loved bands in the Christian rock universe.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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In the second season of Rock That Doesn't Roll, hosts Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill look at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now. Topics covered in season two include hip hop, feminism, purity culture, hair metal and more. Episodes publish every other week starting on April 24.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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In this bonus episode, Andrew and Leah talk with Lars Gotrich of NPR Music, the producer who brought Amy Grant to play a Tiny Desk Concert. Lars shares how he went from "judgy Christian punk rocker" to someone good at existing in two worlds at once.

To hear the full interview, join our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/rtdr

Find Lars’ playlists and tea newsletter at vikingschoice.org

What happens when one of the country’s most outspoken critics of white male Christian political conservatism sits down with a well-known white male conservative Christian political pundit? Find out, as Kristin Du Mez and David French discuss politics, culture, and the desperate need for hospitality in the digital age on No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp.

In this bonus episode Leah and Andrew interview Jim Cooper, the composer who wrote and recorded the original score for Rock That Doesn't Roll. He talks about growing up in the DC area, getting obsessed with Fugazi and Dischord Records, then throwing away all his secular music.

The full hour-long interview is at our Patreon. The conversation goes on to talk about abandoning a theology major at Wheaton College for music, getting support from John J Thompson and True Tunes, performing at Cornerstone and eating humble pie after opening for Wilco.

Join our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/RTDR

Some of Jim's music: https://infomercialusa.bandcamp.com/

https://detholz.bandcamp.com/

https://tyme.bandcamp.com/album/someday-in-the-ancient-future

Andrew references Ian MacKaye's Episcopalian upbringing in the discussion. Read more about that here: https://wamu.org/story/14/10/17/the_unlikely_bond_between_a_dc_church_and_the_punk_music_scene/

‘Tis the season for holiday specials and Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock and Roll to You) of Rock that Doesn’t Roll are bringing you a surprise holiday gift: weirdly specific awards for Contemporary Christian Music Christmas tunes! So come on, ring those bells, grab your Christmas shoes, and get ready to Yo-Ho-Ho yourself into some holiday cheer - it’s Christmastime!

Do you have a CCM Christmas story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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For 1990s and early aughts youth group alumni, Christian rock is often the source of embarrassment or shame - but does it have to be that way? The season finale of Rock That Doesn't Roll explores the idea that maybe, just maybe, the key to getting over angst about Christian rock isn't rejecting it or avoiding it, but coming to peace with the person you were when you fell in love with it. With insight from historian Randall J. Stephens (author, The Devil's Music), hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock & Roll to You) follow the story of David Bazan, a Pentecostal pastor's kid-turned-indie rocker who spent decades running from his CCM past. Along the way, Bazan founded Pedro the Lion, and gained critical acclaim, but his fraught relationship with evangelical Christianity and the world of Contemporary Christian Music haunted him. In the end, Bazan suggests that one way to make peace with a CCM past is to learn to be “the billy of your actual hills.”

Thanks for joining us for the first season - it’s been an incredible journey. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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The late 90s and early aughts were a banner time for a really specific type of rock band - the are-they-or-aren't-they a Christian band, band. Sixpence None the Richer. Creed. Evanescence. Lifehouse. Owl City. Paramore. They all had different sounds, but they left listeners wondering: are they - or aren't they - “Christian music?” This week on Rock that Doesn't Roll: does an artist who identifies as Christian have to brand their music as such? With insight from David Dark (author, We Become What We Normalize), hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock & Roll to You) follow the story of Jon Foreman, a pastor’s kid from Carlsbad, California whose band Switchfoot created songs that resonated with youth group kids and climbed the Top 40 charts. Were they, or were they not, a Christian band? We explore efforts to rethink Christian music, and how mainstream superstars U2 led the way for bands like Switchfoot to wrestle with the marketing category of “Christian” - and find an enduring connection with their fans along the way.

Did you ever love a Christian-ish band? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Who could a 1990s Christian rock aficionado turn to in order to find the latest and greatest releases? For mainstream music fans, tastemakers included record store clerks of 1990s indie music stores, or retail juggernauts like Tower Records and Wherehouse - the kind of superfans depicted by Jack Black in High Fidelity. But for many evangelical teens of the 1990s, record stores were not the place to find kid-tested, parent-approved music. For that, Christian teens usually had to go to Christian bookstores. There, among the Bibles and Precious Moments dolls and Christian-themed t-shirts, they found the records that defined their adolescence. Their guides on the journey? Bookstore Guys. This week on Rock that Doesn’t Roll: with insight from ethnomusicologist Andrew Mall (author, God Rock, Inc.), hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock & Roll to You) follow the story of John J. Thompson (True Tunes podcast), a Christian bookstore guy who dreamed of transcending the Christian bookstore and creating a music store - along with a thriving artistic community - for fans of critically-acclaimed Christian rock.

Do you have a story to share about your Christian rockstar dreams? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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For every 1990s Christian rock star who made it big, there were thousands of never-realized, would-be Christian rock dreams. With special insight from Christian music industry veteran promoter Chris Hauser, hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock and Roll to You) follow the CCM aspirations of comedian Kevin James Thornton and artist/faith leader Sunia Won Gibbs. The two Christian music fans hoped to find stardom and a sense of the divine, but found many trials and travails awaited those who took the stage as evangelical pop stars. Along the way, Sunia and Kevin discover that while not every aspiring CCM artist “made it,” the world of Christian music certainly made them.

Do you have a story to share about your Christian rockstar dreams? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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For 1990s evangelical teens, punk, hardcore, and ska were a gateway to a passionate, edgy way to express their Christianity outside the mainstream. But was the music and the message enough to keep the evangelical faith? In episode two, hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock and Roll to You) follow three Christian punk rock stories from Dr. Bradley Onishi of Axis Mundi Media, author D.L. Mayfield, and Tim Whitaker of The New Evangelicals as they share their stories of loving, leaving, or holding on to evangelical Christianity - and the music that fueled their teenaged devotion.

Do you have a story to share about the Christian ska, punk, or hardcore scene? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Picture this. It's 1986. The Cold War is at a fever pitch. The whole world is locked into a conflict between the Forces of Freedom, and the Commies... at least that's how it felt to 80s kids. But the Cold War wasn't the only threat facing American society. Many feared that a much more sinister enemy lurking in the shadows: the devil himself. During the so-called satanic panic, parents worried that their kids would get caught by the Lord of Darkness, and rock - specifically heavy metal from notoriously debauched bands like Motley Crüe - was a big threat. What was an evangelical teen metal fan to do when the whole genre was tainted by Beelzebub? You fight fire with fire, and send Satan straight to hell with the legendary band Stryper. With insight from Stryper's Michael Sweet, and White Lion's Mike Tramp, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the epic battle for the soul of Stryper, the undisputed kings of 1980s Christian Metal who wanted to fight Satan on his home turf - the raucous world of mainstream metal. Along the way, they found that the battle lines between demons and angels can get a bit blurry. How do you win the war when you aren't exactly sure who is friend or foe? 

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Christian rock has a lot of naysayers, but for evangelical teens of the 1990s, it was EVERYTHING. For most kids raised in conservative Christian households, mainstream music was forbidden - if teens were going to rock, they needed to do it God’s way. And the place to find Christian rock gods? Youth group.

In the first episode of Rock that Doesn’t Roll, hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock and Roll to You) talk with comedian Steve Hernandez and author Tyler Huckabee finding music, meaning, and identity in 1990s youth group culture. Youth ministry consultant Mark Oestreicher explains the world of high-production youth groups, where rock shows reigned as the best way to draw a crowd of teens into evangelical churches. In this episode, the music of Delirious?, DCTalk, and Relient K bring kids in the doors of the youth group room. But it couldn’t always keep them. Steve and Tyler share their stories of loving - and in some cases leaving - the Christian rock scene that raised them. But even when you take the kid out of the youth group, it turns out that you may not be able to take the youth group music out of the kid.

Do you have a story to share about rocking out to your favorite Christian band in youth group? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264.

If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon.

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Join hosts Leah Payne and Andrew Gill as they explore the world of Christian rock in it’s peak era of the 80’s, 90’s and early 2000’s.

How do you make fake Contemporary Christian Music? Creating fictional Christian music that feels authentic without crossing the line into parody or pastiche is a tricky artistic challenge. But we found the creators up to the task. Joseph Stephens, composer for HBO's The Righteous Gemstones, a crime-comedy about a family of musical televangelists, and composer Daniel Smith (Danielson) and filmmaker Chris White of Electric Jesus, an independent film about an aspiring 80s Christian metal band, pay homage to Christian music makers of the past and create catchy Christian music that's feels and sounds an awful lot like the real thing. On this episode of Rock that Doesn't Roll, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music), immerse themselves in the Southern Gospel strains of The Righteous Gemstones and glam-band anthems of Electric Jesus, and get a behind-the-scenes look at the artistry, craftsmanship, and heart involved in creating convincing fake CCM songs for the screen.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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KUOW's podcast Let The Kids Dance! is the story of Seattle's Teen Dance Ordinance in a seven-part docuseries chronicling an untold chapter of pop-culture history. It’s a story about moral panic, grassroots activism and an unstoppable music community that fought for its freedom, created and hosted by Jonathan Zwickel.

The TDO made it impossible for venue owners to turn a profit while hosting all-ages shows. But the law contained a few exceptions, allowing concerts at nonprofit spaces and religious institutions. Savvy promoters take full advantage. In the latter half of the 90s, two all-ages venues sent a lifeline to the all-ages community by hosting unforgettable shows, leading to dramatically different results. 

One of those venues was Mars Hill's The Paradox. It was one of Mark Driscoll's early footholds in Seattle and hosted all ages concerts by secular and Christian bands- as well as worship services.

Listen to the official Let the Kids Dance! playlist on Spotify. 

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What happened to the kids raised during the peak era of Christian rock? For insight into the state of Christian rock's late 1990s-early aughts evangelicalism you need not look any further than members of DC Talk, the pinnacle of youth group music. Their trajectory as artists and public figures roughly maps on to the trajectories of the millions of teens raised in American evangelicalism. In this episode,  journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions) surprises historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) with a fan-made quiz that asks: are you a Toby Mac, a Michael Tait, or a Kevin Max? Together with two Christian rock aficionados, journalist Jason Kirk (author of Hell Is a World Without You) and comedian Kevin T. Porter (co-host of Good Christian Fun), Rock That Doesn't Roll explores the aftermath of the peak youth group band era.

Take the quiz for yourself!

Listen to the Hell Is a World Without You playlist on Spotify.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Purity culture wasn’t just for youth group “purity girls.” “Purity bros” were also a part of the project! No one knows that more than Joshua Harris, a CCM fan who helped turn purity culture into an extreme sport. Together with his friend, Christian music superstar Rebecca St. James, they created media that inspired a generation of evangelicals to say no to sex outside of marriage, but also to things like dating, kissing, holding hands, and a lot of other things. In this episode, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the story of Josh Harris, one-time icon of purity culture. Josh found that the X-games of evangelicalism included the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat, and eventually, a life beyond the world of purity bros and purity girls.
 
Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

RSVP for our virtual event June 11th at 6pm Central time. 

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In 2001, teen singing sensation Nikki Leonti was on her way to a promising Christian music career. She had two hit CCM records, and - as a pop princess who swore to refrain from premarital sex - the support of big evangelical media organizations like James Dobson’s Focus on the Family. But then, at age 18, the “purity girl” Leonti announced she was pregnant, and lost it all. With insight from author and podcaster Devi Abraham, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) explore how Christian music purity icons like Nikki Leonti, along with their fans, walked the tightrope of purity culture, lost their balance, and learned to put their lives back together again after they fell. 
 
Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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In the 1990s, music critics argue that hip hop was in its golden age. Mainstream Top 40 charts were filled with hits from The Notorious B.I.G, Tupac Shakur, and Dr. Dre. But the Contemporary Christian charts lagged far, far behind. What took so long for holy hip hop to take off? With insight from Dr. Jonathan Calvillo (author of In the Time of Sky-Rhyming: How Hip Hop Resonated in Brown Los Angeles), journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the story of Christopher J. Cooper, aka Soup the Chemist, aka Super C, a groundbreaking figure in the Christian hip hop movement. It wasn’t easy, but as Soup the Chemist worked to carve out a place for Christian hip hop to thrive, he laid the foundation for future Christian hip hop artists like Propaganda and Lecrae.

Do you have a Christian music story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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In 1999, ​singer-songwriter Jennifer Knapp was at the top of the Christian music world. Her debut album Kansas was gold-certified, she'd won four Gospel Music Association Dove Awards, and she was on tour with some of the top bands in the business. It seemed like Knapp was destined to be the ultimate ​rockstar poster child for evangelical teens - especially young women. But ​that frame was ​an uncomfortable​ fit for Knapp​. She was an adult convert, and the evangelical norms that young women learned from the world of CCM were new to her. Eventually, at the height of her fame, Jennifer ​moved across the globe, and disappeared from the world of CCM. Yet even when ​s​he thought her stint in Christian music was over, ​Jennifer's fans had other ideas. In this episode, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow Knapp’s story, and explore how, together with her fans, she’s making new meaning out of the ​Christian music of her past.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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In this bonus episode Leah and Andrew talk with Blake Chastain, the first person to use "exvangelical" as a hashtag (and host of the Exvangelical podcast) about his book, "Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back." He shares about his time as a "bookstore guy" and how the academic concepts of "counter public" and "hyperobject" are helpful in understanding what's happening in American evangelicalism. 

In the Patreon-only version of this episode, he also shares a story about a song that left him temporarily paralyzed at work once. Plus we discuss not one, but two different songs by Ray Boltz. 

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Second Sunday is one of our sibling podcasts with PRX's Big Questions Project. 

Second Sunday is about Black Queer folks finding, keeping and sometimes losing faith.

Mark Miller is a graduate of Juilliard and Yale University with an expertise in choral conducting, sacred music, and voice. His hymns and anthems are sung by communities of faith throughout the world, and his album, Imagine the People of God, is available on iTunes. He believes that music, social justice, and the beloved community are inextricably tied. His story is about finding God and himself through music.

The Second Sunday podcast is hosted by Esther and Darren Calhoun. Follow Esther @estheralready,https://www.instagram.com/estheralreadyFollow Darren @heydarren, https://www.instagram.com/heydarrenFollow Second Sunday @secondsundaypod, https://instagram.com/secondsundaypodSubscribe to the podcast, https://secondsundaypod.com

Jordan Morris is a long time podcaster, comedy writer and creator and co-writer of the two-time Eisner-nominated graphic novel Bubble (based on the hit podcast). His new graphic novel, co-written with artist Bowen McCurdy is Youth Group. It draws on Jordan's real life experiences in a Orange County California youth groups in the 1990s, but adds literal demon hunting to the list of church-approved activities. 

In the Patreon-only version of this episode, he also shares a story about Christian summer camp and we share ideas for casting a film adaptation of Youth Group.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Charlie Peacock is a renowned figure in the music industry for his solo albums, production work, songwriting and his record label RE:Think, which launched Switchfoot and Sarah Mason. Outside of the music industry spotlight he and his wife Andi Ashworth were creating a very unique space in Nashville called The Art House. Their experiences with The Art House inspired their recent book, "Why Everything That Doesn't Matter, Matters So Much: The Way of Love in a World of Hurt." 

Leah actually worked at The Art House more than 20 years ago, so we were eager to talk with Charlie and Andi about this book. 

To hear the full hour-long interview, visit our Patreon. 

In the Patreon-only version of this episode, Charlie also shares which collaborator he considers one of the best songwriters in the world.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Buy tickets for our live show in Chicago on January 5!

It's the second annual Rock That Doesn't Roll CCM Christmas Song Awards!

Listen to find out what awards Amy Grant, Sarah Masen, Carman, Stryper and David Meece won this year.

Do you have a song that deserves an award? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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A short update on progress towards season three of Rock That Doesn't Roll. 

Leah's limited-run podcast, Spirit and Power.

Michael Tait, most recently lead singer of The Newsboys and also well known as one third of DC Talk, confessed to accusations of sexual assault and drug abuse on June 10, 2025. This came after deeply reported investigations into his behavior were published first by The Roys Report and then by The Guardian. 

The day before this news broke, whistleblowers accused the worship leader best known for right wing political agitation, Sean Feucht, of financial misappropriation and spiritually coercive leadership tactics. 

Hosts Leah Payne and Andrew Gill discuss the two scandals and what each of these figures mean in the context of American evangelicalism. They're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis, a musicologist and worship correspondent for Christianity Today. Her Substack piece on both men is very insightful.  

Additional reading:

Hayley Williams on Michael Tait

Kelsey's book "The Myth of Good Christian Parenting"

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This week on the show it's legends only: Russ Taff and Steve Taylor. They collaborated on Russ' new album, "Cover Story," but both have long and distinctive careers in the Christian music industry. 

Russ Taff became lead singer of The Imperials in 1976, started his solo career in 1983, earning two Grammys and many Dove awards. He was one of the industry's biggest solo male stars, but his most beloved songs are Pentecostal worship songs that connect all the way back to his childhood. Over the years he has dealt with alcoholism off and on, though he is beloved among his peers in the industry. 

Steve Taylor started his career as a new wave Randy Newman type, calling out hypocrisy in the evangelical church, while also becoming an "underground" hero to Christian music fans. In the early 1990s he formed the band Chagall Guevara, deepening the devotion of his alternative fandom. In 1997 he became a label boss when he launched Squint Entertainment, which signed Sixpence None The Richer and released the massive hit single, "Kiss Me."

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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In mid-June NPR published a story with the headline "Christian music is experiencing a pop breakthrough." As podcasters covering the Christian music industry, we usually think it reached it's zenith of popularity in the early 2000s, so this article caught our attention. To dig deeper into the topic, we invited the article's author, Emma Madden, on the podcast. Our chat was wide ranging and gets into the influence of worship music on new Christian pop music, differences in religious culture in the UK versus the US, the role of social media in spreading singles by Brandon Lake and Forrest Frank, the conservative political environment in the US and the changing standards of personal behavior expected of Christian pop stars. 

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In 1998 it seemed like Josh Caterer had it made. His band, Smoking Popes, had three critically acclaimed albums out. They were signed to Capitol Records. He had married his high school sweetheart. But Josh had also just become a Christian and couldn't reconcile his rock band life with his new evangelical life. So he quit the band. 

On today's episode hosts Andrew Gill and Dr. Leah Payne talk with Josh Caterer about that decision, how the band got back together, their new album, Lovely Stuff, and their new single, "Allegiance." 

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No new episode this week. Be back next Wednesday. Check our Patreon for some bonus content if you're interested. 

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

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Mason Mennenga is really good at social media. You've probably seen his posts about evangelical culture, Christian music or VeggieTales. But he does a lot more than just that. He hosts two podcasts: A People's Theology and The BlackSheep Podcast. He has a YouTube channel. He writes academic papers on music. And he works in the admissions office of a seminary. His social media bio was once "Skillet's Wario" and last year he interviewed the lead singer of Skillet. We were excited to talk with the internet's crass youth pastor earlier this year.   

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Glenn Kaiser has had a huge influence on Christian music as a musician, a festival co-founder and an outspoken thought leader. He was our top guest choice for our live taping in January of 2025 in Chicago.

While Glenn Kaiser is a singular figure in the world of Christian music, we are aware that Jesus People USA is a triggering topic for some listeners. For a more thorough examination of Jesus People USA check out the book Grey Sabbath or for the perspective of abuse survivors from JPUSA, the film No Place To Call Home.

This interview does not go into the topic of abuse, but we gave Glenn the opportunity to address it via email. He said,

"The sad reality is sins of abuse, etc. happen and how to best respond to such regardless is a long work that has progressed for us. Over the past decade we've established several professional safeguards to ensure the safety of children and policies to address it. All in leadership and most in the wider fellowship have completed courses re. abuse and are mandated reporters."

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In season two of Shiny Happy People, the Amazon Prime Original docu-series turns its focus to Teen Mania Ministries, the organization that made Acquire The Fire stadium events. These events are described in the series as "youth group Coachella." But Christian music was just the tip of the iceberg with Teen Mania. 

To unpack the series, Andrew is joined by Krispin Mayfield, a fellow podcaster and licensed therapist who specializes in helping people with religious trauma. 

Learn more about Krispin at krispinmayfield.com and his current podcast project, Strongwilled, at Substack: strongwilled.substack.com

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Larry Norman is widely recognized as the first Christian rock star. Recording with mainstream studio musicians The Wrecking Crew and later sharing a label with The Velvet Underground, Norman began his career singing explicitly about the values of evangelical Christianity on mainstream releases that didn't exactly light up the charts. But when Christian music publishers licensed his albums to sell in bookstores, sales went through the roof and the Christian Contemporary Music market was born. 

Plus he wrote the song "The Rock That Doesn't Roll."

Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist. 

This interview is being presented in two parts. This is part one, covering Norman's early life, views on race, the origins of his "One Way" symbol, his fall from favor with the Christian industry and his free-spirited wife, Pamela Ahlquist.

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Nathan Evans Fox is a country music artist, but he has a deep background with Christian music. In his viral hit single "Hillbilly Hymn" he brings the biblical concept of jubilee into the rural gas station. 

Find more of Nathan's music here and look for his podcast "Yallidarity Social Club" soon. 

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Derek Webb was part of a remarkable success story with Caedmon's Call in the late '90s. But the more success he witnessed, the less he could keep quiet. Now in his solo career he stands confidently alongside the marginalized, even attending the Dove Awards in a dress. 

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Larry Norman thought another world was possible. Christians would make daring, artistic rock music. Mainstream musicians would make earnestly explore their spirituality in popular songs. He started a record label and an artist management company to make this a reality. And though he could see glimpses of this world, it was fully realized. 

Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist. This episode highlights some of those "perils" referenced in the subtitle. 

This is part two of the interview. Topics covered in this segment include the reaction of the mainstream rock industry to Larry Norman, Bob Dylan's born again era, the lasting effect of the Christian contemporary music industry on America and where we see this energy today.

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Ozzy Osbourne died in July. He was memorialized as the "Prince of Darkness" and was a key figure during the Satanic Panic of the 1980s. But our guest Jason P Woodbury points out that Osbourne's genius was in marrying heaven and hell- and if you listen closely, he's not as different from Christian rock as you might assume. 

Jason P Woodbury is an editor of Aquarium Drunkard and hosts their podcast, Transmissions. He also makes music as JPW.

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Katie Thornton loves radio. Her series The Divided Dial has delved into conservative talk radio and shortwave. It won a 2023 Peabody Award. And her piece for Rolling Stone, "Jesus Take The Dial" goes in depth on CCM radio giant K-LOVE's operations. 

We talk with Thornton about how K-LOVE's parent company has used its non-profit status to build a broadcasting behemoth and the downstream effects that has on American culture. We also discuss the Christian music she actually enjoys, her contrarian take on Bob Dylan and how K-LOVE compares to Salem Media Group, her main subject in season one of The Divided Dial. 

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In 1985 the Contemporary Christian Music industry reached a cultural height it would never regain. That's the basic case that Tim Dillinger has been making lately in his Substack, God's Music Is My Life. With artists like Amy Grant, Leslie Phillips, Sheila Walsh, Tramaine Hawkins and Rez Band pushing the boundaries of CCM from the inside, and mainstream acts like Maria Muldour and Mr. Mister pushing into CCM from the outside, 1985 was a year like no other, according to Tim. Would you believe that the downfall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's PTL empire in 1987 would reshape the Christian landscape for the worse?

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Chris DeVille wrote the book on the indie rock boom (Such Great Heights: The Complete Cultural History of the Indie Rock Explosion), but before he became a self-confessed "indie snob" he was a willing listener of Christian rock. In this conversation we discuss the influence of Pitchfork on musical tastes and how specific signifiers could have an outsized impact on critical coverage in the blog era. Artists discussed include 4Him, Stavesacre, Sufjan Stevens, Pedro The Lion, Cameron Winter, Neutral Milk Hotel and, of course, Carman. 

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After 15 weekly episodes in season 3, Leah and Andrew chat about what else they've been up to this fall, what episodes they've especially enjoyed this season, and what they're looking forward to in upcoming episodes.

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Aaron Carnes is an expert on ska, but is self-aware enough that his book (and podcast) are called In Defense of Ska. Like Christian rock, when folks admit to liking ska they often brace for being mocked. Aaron knows something about both worlds since he was only allowed to listen to CCM growing up. 

This conversation is wide-ranging, covering the roots of ska (Madness didn't invent it), the waves of reinvention it has survived and how it was put to use by Christians to good effect (Five Iron Frenzy, The Israelites, Runforyerlife) and questionable effect (The OC Supertones, B.O.B.). Plus a little story about Sonseed.

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The Charlie Kirk Memorial in Arizona was a singular event that blended religion and politics in powerful ways. It featured a lot of Christian music. Brandon Lake, Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Kari Jobe Carnes, Cody Carnes and Tiffany Hudson all led the 100,000 people in the stadium and estimated 20 million watching online in worship songs. To analyze what it means that these artists performed at this event and how their music functioned in the event, we're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and David Gate. 

Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a musicologist, worship music correspondent for Christianity Today, and co-author of The Myth of Good Christian Parenting: How False Promises Failed a Generation of Evangelicals.

David Gate is a poet, writer and visual artist who used to lead worship in England, Ireland and the American South. His collection of poems and essays is called A Rebellion of Care.

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The English worship band Delirious (technically Deliriou5?) certainly changed church music and probably influenced a young Chris Martin of Coldplay, but was their lasting impact on music bigger than Nirvana's? That's the case made in a social media video by our guest today, Gabriel Wilson. 

Wilson is a veteran of worship bands both as a musician and producer. He once toured with Delirious and has produced Delirious singer Martin Smith in the studio. He also has a deep respect for Nirvana. Andrew and Leah dig into his case for Delirious having a larger impact on music writ large than Nirvana. 

Gabriel's Video

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David Dark is a life-long Nashvillian and an admitted member of what he calls "The Prayer Trade" as a professor of religion and the arts at Belmont University. In 2002 he published his first book, "Everyday Apocalypse: The Sacred Revealed in Radiohead, The Simpsons, and Other Pop Culture Icons." At the time he was involved in The Art House along with Leah and Charlie Peacock. 

Now David has reissued the book as "Everyday Apocalypse: Art, Empire, and the End of the World" or if you're a Swiftie "Everyday Apocalypse (David's Version)." 

Hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne welcome David back to the show to discuss both editions of the book, his relationships with musicians inside and outside the Christian music industry and his depiction in the book "Body Piercing Saved My Life."

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PROMO SWAP: "When We Were on Fire" is a full-cast audio drama podcast based on the faith deconstruction memoir by Addie Zierman. Created by Lizzie Goldsmith, the podcast stars Aria Sivick as Addie, and features original music by Frank Sheffield. 

Todd Fadel is our guest this week. He is an individual whose life experiences defy easy categorization. He was the lead singer of a Star Wars-themed side project to Tooth and Nail grunge band Sometime Sunday. He was a worship leader at a non-traditional church in Portland, Oregon. He helped run TOMFest. He's also a big fan of Evie. 

Most of our conversation in this episode is about his work running Meow Meow, an all-ages venue in Portland that straddled the Christian and secular music worlds in the early 2000s. 

Adam Voith's novel in progress that is mentioned in this episode. 

The film adaptation of Don Miller's best-selling book, Blue Like Jazz, is mentioned in this episode. It was directed by the legendary Steve Taylor. 

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