Quote-to-cash: it's messy, it's technical, and every project takes WAY longer than planned.

It's also absolutely vital. If you can't get quotes out the door, or if you can't collect money from your customers, you don't have a business.

Because of their complexity, these systems tend to change infrequently, and in-house operators may not get the repetitive exposure necessary to master the intricacies of CPQ or billing system projects.

So when I wanted a crash course on quote-to-cash, I turned to Nick and Tony at Hyperscayle—former operators who've built a RevOps agency with a focus on lead-to-cash operations.

We go deep into the process and systems, discuss technical gotchas, and explore the change management issues that must be addressed to make quote-to-cash work smoothly.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Nicholas Rose is Co-Founder of Hyperscayle, a RevOps consulting firm covering lead-to-cash operations. He's previously held senior operations roles at Dell and Mendix (acquired by Siemens AG).

Tony Tarantino is Chief Architect at Hyperscayle. Previously, he was a technology consultant at Accenture and application architect at Mendix.

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [00:56] - Making the jump from in-house to agency
• [05:17] - Quote to cash definitions
• [10:25] - Design phase and cross-functional alignment
• [14:06] - When does a company need CPQ
• [16:41] - Why are CPQ projects so messy
• [22:34] - Product configuration
• [28:01] - Ideal tech stack
• [32:26] - Data quality and deal desk
• [36:20] - Role of RevOps

Marketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget.

Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning.

It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number.

Get your free copy now:

Uptempo Planning Guide

• Hyperscayle RevOps Advisory & Implementation Services

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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This week I sit down with seasoned RevOps executive Danielle Marquis to explore the evolving landscape of the discipline and how professionals can find balance and fulfillment in their careers.

Danielle shares insights from her 15 years of experience in the field, discussing how RevOps has changed over time and how the role is increasingly being positioned as a critical function within organizations. We dive into the best practices for structuring RevOps teams, prioritizing work, and aligning internal strategies for maximum impact.

As the conversation unfolds, we also explore some personal aspects of career growth, with Danielle offering candid advice on how to carve out a fulfilling path in RevOps and find your happy place at work.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

With 15 years of experience in revenue operations, Danielle Marquis has lead global teams supporting sales, marketing, and customer success functions in achieving their goals and growing the business. Her super power is connecting the dots across various business decisions and technologies to drive and design a more operationalized path to GTM.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellemarquis/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:06] - Evolution of RevOps in the past 15 years
• [11:08] - Positioning RevOps internally
• [16:46] - Team structure
• [26:16] - Planning and prioritization
• [30:40] - Finding your happy place at work
• [39:40] - What’s next in RevOps
• [43:46] - RevOps vs. GTM Ops

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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I have a fascination with how SaaS products actually get made—especially those that become institutions in the software landscape.

As users, we become deeply familiar with these products, the nitty-gritty of how they work, and what it's like to live inside them. People base entire careers on these platforms.

What we usually DON'T see is the backstory:

• How do these great products get designed?
• What were the decisions and trade-offs along the way?
• How do they catch on?
• How do you create lovable features?
• What causes great products to often stagnate?

Today's guest is a legendary product leader and innovator. As the first employee of Marketo, Glen Lipka led the product team during a critical early phase, building many of its still most-beloved features.

This episode is packed with Marketo lore, product design insights, and lessons about how to build a product that users love.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Glen Lipka is a 25+ year veteran of product innovation and design. As Chief Design Officer and first employee at Marketo, he built the flagship product. He has held numerous other product leadership roles and is currently VP of Product Design for Crowdstrike.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenlipka/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:14] - Glen’s start at Marketo
• [02:56] - Marketo’s first features
• [13:36] - Product differentiation
• [20:37] - Developing the concept of marketing automation
• [26:00] - Why great products start to suck
• [40:46] - Hubspot as a product company
• [44:19] - AI

• Glen's series of retrospective articles on building Marketo
• Glen's personal blog

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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What does it take to scale a company from $100M to over $1B in ARR?

Cody Guymon has taken a journey that most revenue operators could only dream of—helping Qualtrics scale to an $8B acquisition and then a $27B IPO. Now he's back at an earlier stage company, hoping to repeat the trip all over again.

We chat through his lessons learned, his forecasting methodology, and how he architected a unified RevOps function with the CEO before joining Workato.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Cody Guymon is a strategic sales and operations leader, leading teams at Vivint, Qualtrics, and now Workato. He helped scale Qualtrics from a $1B unicorn to an $8B SAP acquisition and then through an IPO at a $20B+ valuation. Today he serves as the COO of GTM Operations at Workato.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/codyguymon/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:07] - What is GTM operations?
• [03:50] - Working 1-1 with reps in the field
• [04:46] - Creating a truly unified GTM ops function
• [16:56] - Go-to-market analytics
• [19:16] - Pros and cons of unification
• [23:29] - Project planning and prioritization
• [30:17] - Forecasting and thinking long-term
• [39:24] - Experience at Qualtrics and SAP
• [47:03] - Cody’s daily routines

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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There's a set of skills we rely on everyday at work, often without realizing it: how we think about problems, make decisions, market our ideas, manage up, give feedback...they're all part of the operating system of how we interface with the business world.

I’m fascinated by these things both because they have a massive impact on our effectiveness and because they often go unexamined. They’re just part of how we operate. But what if our ways of working are holding us back? What if we could optimize them and radically improve our performance?

Today's guest is a serial entrepreneur, marketer, and operator. These days she focuses on exploring and writing about these "deceivingly basic" topics in one of my favourite newsletters, which reaches more than 250,000 people.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Wes Kao is an entrepreneur, speaker, coach, and advisor who writes at newsletter.weskao.com. She is co-founder of Maven, an edtech company that raised $25M from First Round and Andreessen Horowitz. Previously, she co-founded the altMBA with bestselling author Seth Godin.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/weskao/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:28] - Why write about “deceivingly basic” topics
• [06:56] - Rigorous thinking
• [10:43] - Building a culture of rigorous thinking
• [21:10] - Bottom line up front
• [26:39] - Relationship with your manager
• [37:23] - Change management
• [41:32] - Empathy
• [44:09] - Being a LinkedIn creator

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• Wes Kao's Newsletter

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

Running business systems at enterprise scale has some unique challenges—especially when that enterprise is Hubspot.

Today we're fortunate to chat with Rich Archbold, whose team supports all GTM systems and automation at Hubspot, including Hubspot's own Hubspot implementation.

This is a truly fascinating peek behind the scenes at one of the most iconic tech companies. Rich also shares generously from his deep experience, providing insights into how to foster a culture of agility, customer-centricity, and impact within a business systems team.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Rich Archbold is VP of Engineering for GTM Systems at Hubspot. He is passionate about building and scaling high-performing, highly engaged teams that build and operate world-class, mission-critical technology products and services. Prior to Hubspot, he held business systems and engineering leadership roles at Intercom, Facebook, and Amazon.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardarchbold/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:06] - Transitioning from engineering to business systems
• [10:42] - GTM systems team structure at Hubspot
• [15:17] - Centralized vs. decentralized systems ownership
• [20:51] - Hubspot’s tech stack
• [23:02] - Can Hubspot work at enterprise scale?
• [25:11] - Hubspot Prospecting Workspace
• [31:16] - Use of Workato
• [33:24] - Lead processing systems
• [36:23] - Data quality
• [46:22] - Prioritization

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• 6 things I learned the hard way leading business systems

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I'm a really big believer in the idea of a unified RevOps function supporting all the go-to-market teams.

But I'll be honest, sometimes it's a little discouraging when I look at how RevOps is done in practice, because outside of a few examples, I usually see essentially a sales ops function with a new name.

So I wanted to find people who are actually leading a unified RevOps team in the real world and to understand how they're doing it and how it's working out for them.

Today's guest is leading a very mature RevOps function at Electric and has a ton of practical insight to share.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Julia Kim is VP of Revenue Operations for Electric and an Adjunct Instructor at Columbia University. She has over 10 years experience as an operations executive and has launched award-winning consumer and SaaS products mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Forrester, and TechCrunch.

Before Electric, she led GTM operations for 4 profitable acquisitions. In addition to her RevOps experience, she has a technical background with a recent focus in artificial intelligence and predictive data modelling.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliajuleskim/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:50] - Definition of Revenue Operations
• [03:40] - RevOps at different stages of maturity
• [09:09] - Deep dive on Julia’s team structure
• [14:00] - Collaboration within the RevOps team
• [21:52] - Addressing concerns about unifying the ops functions
• [28:07] - Identifying biggest opportunities for impact
• [37:19] - Relationship with data team
• [40:11] - Change management and enablement
• [47:37] - RevOps and AI
• [55:11] - What’s a current challenge?

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

Every company pays lip service to privacy. But few seem to really value it in practice.

In marketing and sales, we rely on personal and behavioural data for so many commonplace tactics, and this reliance is only increasing.

It's a kind of arms race. Even if you wanted to, it feels like you can't afford to give up the perceived advantages of using personal data.

And even as we continually hear about the "death" of this or that type of tracking, the reality is that hundreds of billions of advertising revenue are on the line. The incentives to keep collecting and commodifying our data are huge.

I wanted to dig deeper into the current state of privacy in marketing today, and I could think of no better person to reach out to than Stephane Hamel.

He is a legendary practitioner and thought leader in the digital analytics space and one of the foremost advocates for privacy and ethics in marketing.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Stephane Hamel is a digital analytics and marketing expert with over 35 years experience. He has spoken at over 150 industry events and was named one of the Most Influential Industry Contributors by the Digital Analytics Association. As an educator, he’s taught thousands of students at institutions including UBC, SimpliLearn, ULaval, Harvard, YorkU, and others. In recent years, he’s focused his attention on the ethical use of data in a marketing context

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shamel/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:49] - Current state of privacy in marketing
• [03:30] - Vision of a truly privacy-oriented company
• [08:20] - How a 100% consent-based model would work
• [10:59] - Is privacy-respecting marketing better marketing?
• [13:26] - Analogy of seatbelts
• [17:32] - Getting people to care about privacy
• [20:50] - Advertising in a privacy-first world
• [24:21] - Conflict between privacy and commercial interests
• [31:41] - Google and the “death” of third-party cookies
• [36:47] - AI literacy
• [41:44] - Career impact of being privacy-oriented

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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Refine Labs has had a seismic impact on B2B marketing.

Whether you agree with their philosophy or not, it's hard to deny its influence. They've set the agenda, defined the terms of the debate, and challenged many aspects of the status quo.

Former CEO Chris Walker catapulted the agency to prominence with his LinkedIn thought leadership. But behind the scenes, there's also been an intricate operational odyssey to scale Refine Labs from scratch to nearly 100 employees.

Today's guest, Megan Bowen, partnered with Chris from the beginning as COO before taking over as CEO in January of 2024. In this no-holds-barred episode, she shares an operational perspective on building Refine Labs, with candid stories and insights about scaling a service-based business, riding the hyper-growth rollercoaster, and weathering economic storms.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Over her 20+ year career, Megan Bowen has built and scaled go-to-market teams at eChalk, ZocDoc, Grubhub/Seamless (IPO: 2014), ManagedbyQ (WeWork Acquisition: 2019) and Platterz.

In 2020, she teamed up with the Founder of Refine Labs to change the way B2B companies go-to-market.

Today, she is the CEO of Refine Labs, A B2B Demand Generation Agency.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganwhitebowen/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:32] - Megan’s background
• [07:06] - Building Refine Labs
• [14:15] - Stepping into the CEO role
• [16:34] - Prioritizing the health of your team
• [21:56] - Segmenting clients and service levels
• [23:54] - Packaging, pricing, and service design
• [25:46] - Transparency in the sales process
• [27:43] - Achieving consistent service quality when scaling the team
• [31:21] - Onboarding process
• [31:59] - Balancing supply and demand in agency staffing
• [35:23] - Transparency around layoffs
• [37:12] - Evolution of Refine Labs methodology
• [40:36] - Partnership with Aspireship

• Refine Labs | Leading B2B Demand Generation Agency
• Refine Labs x Aspireship - Get subsidized access to the Refine Labs IP library with Aspireship.

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I think marketing is one of the toughest functions to lead successfully.

Your job is part art, part science. You need to hire, coach, and retain talent with a huge range of skillsets that you may even not be master of yourself—from the creative to the analytical to the technical.

And then your job is to simultaneously create demand, capture demand, help sales convert that demand, help customer success retain and expand that demand...your job is never done.

Today we chat with one of my favourite marketing leaders, Thao Ngo. We'll explore her unconventional marketing strategy and also her leadership playbook—how she grows her team and creates an environment where people do their best work.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Thao Ngo is a senior B2B marketing leader with 20+ years of experience in building world-class teams, generating sales-ready leads, and creating brand awareness for tech companies of various sizes. She's led marketing teams at Elastic Path, Vision Critical, and SensorUp, and is currently SVP of Marketing at Uptempo.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaongo/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:09] - What makes a great marketer?
• [02:40] - Evolution of marketing skills
• [04:48] - How to use data
• [06:25] - Marketing leadership and operating rhythms
• [09:30] - Trust and psychological safety
• [12:49] - Coaching and feedback
• [24:32] - First hires on a marketing team
• [25:43] - Division of labour between CMO and VP
• [28:05] - What keeps Thao up at night
• [29:47] - The marketing planning process
• [36:24] - Influencer / community marketing programs
• [47:13] - A day in the life of Thao

• Live MOps Huddles

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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More and more marketers are embracing demand creation as a strategy, at least in principle.

But making a fundamental GTM change is HARD.

You need to build executive alignment, define new KPIs, identify how to educate your target audience, fine-tune your content engine, and a whole lot more.

As VP of Demand Gen at Refine Labs, Sam Kuehnle has been a big part of the movement evangelizing a shift from lead gen to demand gen and has helped many companies make the transition.

Now he's leading a similar shift as an in-house marketing leader.

We go deep into what it takes to actually implement this strategy in practice, go beyond leads, and deliver real revenue impact.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Sam Kuehnle is VP of Marketing at Loxo, the Talent Intelligence Platform. From working in-house at a publicly-traded company, to advising seed stage companies trying to figure out how to crack their first $1M in ARR, to everything in-between, Sam is passionate about learning and sharing better ways to do marketing.

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:37] - Sam’s marketing experience before Refine Labs
• [06:33] - Joining Refine Labs
• [08:11] - Refine Labs onboarding process
• [10:21] - A typical engagement + aligning with customer teams
• [13:36] - How to communicate a demand creation strategy
• [20:26] - Identifying the right mix of channels / platforms
• [25:02] - Leading indicators for demand creation
• [26:45] - Brand awareness vs. demand creation
• [31:32] - Evolution during Sam’s tenure at Refine
• [33:33] - The band-wagon effect and how to identify the best practices of tomorrow
• [35:11] - Joining Loxo
• [37:10] - Sam’s first priorities after going in house
• [41:38] - LinkedIn ad strategy
• [45:09] - Experiments with Connected TV
• [51:35] - ChatGPT as a marketing channel

• Sam's Marketing Meditations - Sam's Substack

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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I've worked with a bunch of different sellers. Some were good. Some not so much. But one or two were truly next level.

They had consistently better results. They brought in bigger deals. They closed accounts no one else could. And they just seemed to "get it" in a different way.

They were switched on—you didn't need to tell them what to do. Whatever challenge you threw at them, they found a way. They seemed built just a little bit differently than other people on the team.

I've always been curious about what makes those great sellers great.

To help answer that question, I sat down with true superstar of the sales world, 5x President's Club winner Brian LaManna, Strategic AE at Gong.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Brian LaManna is a Strategic Account Executive at Gong and Founder of Closed Won, where he offers resources and playbooks for sellers. He is a 5x President's Club winner and regularly achieves 200%+ of quota.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlamanna/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:28] - Role of a seller in the revenue process
• [03:11] - Sales is not convincing
• [04:03] - Defusing prospect defensiveness
• [05:48] - When to break the sales process
• [07:21] - Are good sellers born or made?
• [09:26] - Attributes of a great seller
• [11:25] - Developing a “CEO” mindset
• [13:17] - Cultivating real relationships with customers
• [16:11] - Mindsets, strategies, and routines
• [24:18] - Benefits of selling Gong
• [25:28] - The sales / sales ops relationship
• [28:53] - How ops can get sellers to cooperate
• [31:45] - What does Gong’s RevOps team do well?
• [33:43] - Why AEs should always be prospecting
• [39:02] - Current state of outbound
• [41:39] - Live example: creating a tailored cold email
• [44:47] - Personalization vs. relevance
• [46:45] - How sellers can win at “social selling”

• Closed Won | Systematizing Outbound
• LinkedIn Post: Personalization vs. Relevance

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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This week I'm sharing another podcast I've guested on recently: The Revenue Marketing Report, hosted by Camela Thompson of Caliber Mind.

Camela is a veteran marketing and analytics leader, and we have an in-depth conversation about the business and cultural dimensions of reporting: what KPIs are you reporting to different audiences, data rituals, analytics storytelling, and more.

This is a super important topic for me, because how you create and share data stories in your organization can be the difference between building an executive-level presence for yourself or getting pigeon-holed as a service provider.

We'll be back to regularly scheduled programming next week, until then, enjoy the rest of your August.

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Justin Norris, host of the RevOps FM Podcast and Sr. Director of BDR and Marketing Operations at 360Learning, joins our host, Camela Thompson, Go-To-Market Thought Leader and B2B Insights Expert, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report.

Justin shares his insights and how years of experience sitting at the executive table representing marketing changed his views about which numbers matter most and why. They also geeked out over why MQLs are evil, how to build a ritual around data, and why B2B ops and marketing should focus more on learning from one another.

For more great content like this, check out https://calibermind.com/

SaaS companies spent the past decade optimizing for growth and customer acquisition at all costs. For many, the plan to actually retain and grow those customers has been foggy.

Now with many businesses facing the reality of massive churn, it's become incredibly clear that helping customers succeed is just as important as acquiring them in the first place.

So we're here today to discuss the third leg of the RevOps stool: customer success ops, and by extension, the discipline of customer success as well.

CS Ops doesn't get as much love or attention as marketing or sales ops—one of my past guests jokingly referred to CS Ops as the "red-headed step-child" of RevOps. But I think, and hope, this is starting to evolve.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Stephen McBride is a Customer Success and CS Ops leader dedicated to helping companies grow better. His career has spanned in-house and consulting roles, and he’s spent over seven years in total at Hubspot, five of them as a leader in their Customer Success Org. He recently returned to the agency world with Go Nimbly as a RevOps Delivery Director.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcbridest/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:49] - Defining the role of customer success
• [02:51] - Role of CS in a PLG motion
• [03:37] - Strategies of a great CS team
• [06:00] - CS strategy at Hubspot
• [07:56] - Why do some big companies neglect CS?
• [09:29] - CS as cost center vs. growth driver
• [11:38] - Balancing the mindset of customer support vs. upselling
• [14:09] - Defining the mission of your CS team
• [15:36] - CS as a point of leverage in the customer experience
• [17:28] - Impact of macro-economic factors on CS strategies
• [20:06] - Identifying the impact of CS, factors you can A/B test
• [21:35] - Scope and mission of CS Operations
• [23:23] - CS Ops as a its own function vs. part of RevOps
• [29:09] - Who should a unified RevOps function report to?
• [31:52] - CS Ops vs. MOPS and SOPS
• [34:42] - CS tools and systems
• [40:19] - A best-in-class CS tech stack
• [42:34] - Churn forecasting
• [44:35] - Getting truly useful health scores
• [48:34] - Reducing churn

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• Net Revenue Retention Hub - Go Nimbly - Go Nimbly's excellent hub on NRR and CS topics.

Prioritization is probably the biggest challenge for ops teams.

Say yes to everything—you pretty quickly become a service department.

Set your own priorities without input from the business—you can quickly find yourself irrelevant, even out of a job.

The best model that I've seen for tackling this problem is what we could call the product management approach to managing MarTech.

This is where you effectively treat your stack as an internal product and ops as a product management team working on delivering features for internal customers.

Today's guest has practiced this approach at enterprise scale, with an ops team dozens strong.

Josh Hill shares his insights and lessons learned, as well as his journey as one of the earliest and well-recognized experts in the Marketo community.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Josh Hill is a GTM operations and systems executive who builds revenue accelerating GTM platforms, global teams, and processes in partnership with Product, Sales, and Marketing. He has a strong track record of turning business strategies into live enterprise capabilities and impactful customer experiences.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhill2/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:37] - Josh’s professional journey
• [04:19] - Development of automation pro as a professional identity
• [06:48] - Scope and scale of the teams Josh led
• [08:54] - Definition of a product management approach to martech
• [15:45] - Should marketing ops be oriented around business impact?
• [21:03] - Reasons why ops teams need to say “no” sometimes
• [27:38] - Solving for the internal vs. external customer
• [30:39] - Asking tough questions about adoption and ROI
• [33:53] - Building your roadmap
• [35:53] - Communicating your roadmap internally
• [40:10] - Cultivating resolve around prioritization and triaging requests
• [42:43] - How to transition to a product management approach

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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Every marketing team  wants attribution. But weirdly, it's often not that satisfying when they actually get it.

I led many multi-touch attribution projects as a consultant, and we got really good at implementing tools, creating taxonomies, and making sure that data was clean.

But I found that when you actually showed these reports to a C-level executive, it was usually kind of underwhelming. The data didn't always pass the common sense test.

Today's guest thinks there's a better way — Marketing Mix Modelling. It's basically the application of mathematical techniques to model relationships between different variables.

However, technology now enables it to happen faster and more cost-effectively than ever before.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Mark Stouse is CEO of ProofAnalytics.AI. With over 26 years of experience in marketing communications and strategy, he has a passion for transforming GTM performance with data-driven insights and agile decision making. Prior to founding Proof, Mark was CMO at Honeywell Aerospace, CCO at BMC Software, and a marketing leader at Hewlett Packard Enterprise.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/markstouse/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:15] - Clarifying the acronym “MMM”
• [02:39] - Mark’s background and how he founded Proof Analytics
• [07:57] - Limitations of multi-touch attribution (“MTA”)
• [14:16] - How MMM avoids the shortcomings of MTA
• [16:42] - The Fischer Price definition of MMM
• [19:56] - Demand vs. brand investments and their impact
• [24:09] - A/B vs. multivariate regression
• [25:21] - MMM is aggregate modelling, no reliance on PII
• [27:12] - Simple explanation of multi-variate regression
• [30:29] - Incorporating third-party data sources
• [31:48] - Historical ROI vs. forecasted ROI
• [32:52] - Is MMM just for enterprise?
• [34:51] - Marketing as a non-linear multiplier
• [38:02] - Getting started with MMM
• [41:18] - Updating models to include new data sources
• [42:07] - Competition in the marketing analytics space
• [44:41] - B2C marketing is more advanced in usage of multi-variate regression

• Proof Analytics - Official Site
• Econometrics // Lecture 1: Introduction

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For most of us in B2B, the marketing automation platform - aka "MAP" - is the anchoring piece of technology in the martech stack.

When I was first buying a MAP, there were way more options than today, but generally they all bundled a few core features together — sending emails, segmenting audiences, and creating workflows.

But is there a reason why you need to do your lifecycle processing in the same tool that you send emails with? What does a Martech stack look like where these roles are distributed differently?

Today's guest has answered that question and built an elegant and high-performing composable stack.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Niels Fogt is Sr. Director, Automation Solutions at tray.io. He's led and participated in a wide variety of initiatives within growth and marketing. Strong technical acumen. UX roots.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/uxstrategist/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [02:31] - Niels’ journey as a martech architect
• [06:06] - Challenges with the traditional martech stack
• [09:13] - Developer mindsets and service-oriented architecture
• [12:10] - Applying automation capabilities across the organization
• [14:09] - Components of Tray’s martech stack
• [15:02] - The role of a customer journey tool
• [16:07] - Centralized lead processing in Tray
• [17:23] - Event collection
• [19:09] - Streaming events into automation tool vs. data warehouse
• [22:21] - Native vs. custom integrations
• [29:15] - Benefits of having a workflow layer in Tray vs. in a MAP
• [32:02] - Economics of using an iPaaS as a workflow layer
• [34:50] - Composable martech stacks
• [39:03] - Skillsets needed to operate a composable stack
• [40:01] - Future capabilities
• [41:25] - Relationship to business stakeholders

• Why low code is the future of lead management (and RevOps)
• Introduction to the lead processing pipeline on Tray.io
• Open source RevOps: Taking a closer look at the first few steps of the lead processing pipeline

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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Kyle Coleman is one of the most prominent revenue leaders on LinkedIn and a long-time champion of sales development.

So there was no one better to chat with about the future of the SDR function, which some claim is facing imminent demise...

Spoiler alert: Kyle doesn't share that view. But he DOES think that it needs to change.

We look at how sales development will evolve in 2024 and beyond, discuss his SDR to 2-time-CMO journey, and examine how AI will impact sellers and increase productivity.

Perhaps most importantly, we also go deep into the mindsets, routines, and strategies Kyle has used to enable his professional growth and productivity.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Kyle Coleman is a sales and Marketing leader with a passion for people development, identifying and solving problems, creating and optimizing processes, and unifying departments across the revenue org. He's currently the CMO at Copy.ai and was previously CMO at Clari.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:39] - Role of SDRs in B2B GTM
• [04:47] - Strategic partnership between SDRs and AEs
• [07:43] - How does a junior SDR offer value to an executive?
• [11:20] - Qualities and skills of a good SDR
• [14:05] - Providing space for SDR autonomy
• [16:28] - Replacing SDRs with AI?
• [19:25] - Kyle’s mindset for professional success
• [24:21] - Importance of documentation
• [26:08] - Figuring out what to say “no” to
• [28:52] - Keeping calm in the face of big targets
• [31:43] - Daily routines and prioritization
• [35:32] - Benefits of being a LinkedIn creator
• [39:38] - Core job of a marketing leader
• [41:35] - Why Kyle joined Copy.ai
• [43:19] - Core capabilities of the platform
• [49:29] - Kyle’s predictions on the future of AI in GTM

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• The only AI platform purpose-built for outcomes - Copy.ai official website

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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There comes a time in every marketing ops professional's life when they wonder if the grind of an in-house job is worth it after all.

Whether it's politics, overwork, lack of resources, lack of respect, a toxic boss, or one of a million other things...it might make you think, "maybe I'd be happier as a consultant."

But is the grass actually greener? What does it take to get started in consulting? Are you better off at an agency or as an independent? How do you find clients?

To answer these questions (and many more), I'm joined by Lauren Aquilino and Sydney Mulligan. With over 20 years of consulting experience between us, we have a no-holds-barred discussion on the pros and cons and how to succeed.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Lauren and Sydney are co-founders of EMMIE Collective - a for-hire collective of the most sought-after independent consultants and boutique firms in the marketing ops and ops adjacent space - and co-hosts of the Pretty Funny Business podcast.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenaquilino/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sydneymulligan/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:08] - Origin story of EMMIE Collective
• [10:45] - Has the reality of the agency model met their expectations?
• [12:48] - Becoming an independent consultant vs. joining an agency
• [15:05] - The experience of transitioning from in-house to consultant
• [17:20] - In-house career growth limitations for technical marketing ops
• [18:34] - Challenges of moving from an IC to a manager
• [21:44] - Finding clients and financial planning as a consultant
• [24:16] - Layoffs pushing people into consulting
• [26:42] - Commercial arrangements - hourly vs. project vs. retainer
• [28:50] - Challenges scoping fixed bid projects
• [30:23] - Fractional consulting models
• [32:38] - How to ensure quality / consistency with a team of independents
• [36:57] - Client management skills and dealing with challenging clients
• [41:45] - The tattoo booth at MOps-Apalooza

• EMMIE Collective Official Site
• Pretty Funny Business: The Podcast

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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B2B communities are everywhere these days.

It's easy to forget that 10 years ago, it wasn't nearly so easy to connect with peers, ask for unfiltered recommendations, celebrate wins, and commiserate about dumpster fires.

Mike Rizzo has made community his career - both in developing B2B customer communities and in building the top community of practice for marketing operations.

In this episode, we examine how B2B companies can leverage community as part of their GTM strategy, what makes a community tick, and the inside scoop on what it took to host MOps-Apalooza.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Mike Rizzo is a career marketing operations professional passionate about community. In 2017 he also founded the growing community of MO Pros - a place where thousands of Marketing Operations Professionals connect, collaborate and help elevate the practice of Marketing Ops. He is also the co-host of the podcast called Ops Cast.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedrizzo/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:42] - Why start a MOPS community?
• [05:17] - Community is like a product
• [08:40] - Each community is a vibe
• [10:40] - Maturity of marketing ops vs. sales ops
• [16:37] - Lack of strategic MOPS leadership roles in the marketplace
• [19:13] - MOPS pros should be like product managers
• [21:08] - Community-led as a GTM motion
• [25:40] - Balancing community and economic concerns
• [33:22] - MOps-Apalooza
• [39:59] - What motivated Mike to put on the event?
• [42:26] - The future of marketing operations

• #1 Marketing Ops Community & Private Network | MO Pros - Official site for the MO Pros community
• Ops Cast - The Ops Cast podcast
• MOps-Apalooza 2024 - Marketing Ops - Website for MOps-Apalooza 2024

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

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Every B2B company has a funnel tracking process. And quite often, that process is seriously limited or broken.

Leads get lost, data is inaccurate, and businesses struggle to produce insights and accurate reporting.

I've seen this first hand, and so has this week's guest - Charlie Saunders. We've both spent years as consultants fixing broken funnels.

In this episode, we talk about the many reasons funnel tracking goes wrong and dive deep into the architecture of the scalable solution Charlie's team has developed.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Charlie Saunders is co-founder and the Chief Revenue & Operations Officer at CS2, where he builds Revenue Growth Architecture for growth-stage B2B tech companies that powers efficient and predictable revenue growth.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliesaunders/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:35] - Why funnel tracking matters
• [05:05] - How funnel metrics and attribution interact
• [08:21] - Key funnel metrics
• [10:18] - Accuracy vs. perfection in funnel tracking
• [14:06] - Why we can’t rely just on a Lead Status field
• [19:03] - Using a Salesforce custom object for funnel tracking
• [20:23] - Explanation of using a lifecycle campaign to bridge leads and contacts
• [21:01] - Should everyone start with a custom object?
• [26:55] - Why a custom object doesn’t need to be that intensive to implement
• [29:34] - Custom object impact on sales process and UX
• [33:25] - Tipping point = the initiation of the sales process
• [34:58] - Multiple tipping point types
• [36:14] - Different stages in the pre-pipeline section of the funnel
• [39:28] - Build vs. buy when considering a custom object solution
• [40:38] - You need a strong foundation for any funnel tracking to work
• [42:56] - Deeper discussion on attribution
• [45:47] - Significance of the the "tipping point" touch

• CS2 | B2B Marketing & Revenue Operations Consulting - Official CS2 website.

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Many entrepreneurs dream of creating categories. But few have actually done it - much less built a category worth billions of dollars.

Mark Organ is one of those rare few. As founding CEO of Eloqua, he pioneered marketing automation in the early 2000s, paving the way for other players and selling to Oracle for nearly $900 million.

Mark and I chat through how he co-founded Eloqua, the pivots and experiments needed to achieve product-market fit, and how category creators may be wired a bit differently.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Mark Organ is the founding CEO of Eloqua (the first successful marketing automation platform) and Influitive. His greatest professional passions include creating new billion-dollar categories in technology and developing new leaders. Today he helps CEOs achieve their full potential in their businesses and their lives as the CEO of Categorynauts.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/markorgan/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:05] - Founding Eloqua and marketing automation
• [07:47] - Origin of the lead generation playbook
• [10:39] - Getting to product-market fit
• [16:03] - Genesis of lead scoring
• [19:08] - Toolkit software vs. opinionated software
• [24:25] - Pivots and brushes with death are the norm
• [27:09] - When is it right to build a category?
• [30:14] - Building a category around an under-served hero
• [33:51] - Creating a category for the second time
• [36:42] - Challenges with churn at Influitive
• [41:05] - Alternatives to VC funding in SaaS

• Categorynauts - Categorynauts is the leading global community of category creating leaders, helping CEOs looking to discover, develop and dominate their category.

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Historically, Product-led Growth (PLG) companies have been underserved. Marketing automation platforms, growth playbooks, reporting frameworks, and “best practices” have been largely designed around the needs of their sales-led cousins.

But PLG has had a renaissance in the past few years, and all that's changed. PLG now has its own communities, methodologies, frameworks, and tools.

Today's guest, Dave Rigotti, has quickly become one of the godfathers of PLG as a thought leader and co-founder of Inflection.io.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Dave Rigotti is an entrepreneur and marketing leader dedicated to furthering the B2B marketing industry. Dave was VP of Marketing at Bizible (acquired by Marketo), Director of ABM at Adobe, and now is co-founder and marketing leader at Inflection.io.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/daverigotti/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:39] - What is PLG?
• [04:00] - Why PLG has gotten so popular recently
• [05:50] - Reasons Dave focused his new company on PLG
• [07:26] - Why sales-led software doesn’t scale for PLG
• [07:40] - Playbooks of top PLG companies
• [14:34] - Inflection’s data structure
• [19:12] - Opportunities and challenges of PLG ops
• [22:46] - Funnels, attribution, and PLG
• [25:31] - Scoring in PLG
• [26:47] - Top-down vs. bottom-up PLG motions
• [29:34] - Dave’s journey from startup to enterprise to startup
• [33:17] - Sustaining product agility as a startup
• [35:01] - How it feels to see Bizible not evolve after acquisition
• [36:06] - How to break the cycle of product stagnation as you scale

• Inflection.io - Product-Led Growth Software - Official website for Inflection.io

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It’s August and I’m taking some time off this month to travel and recharge a bit. 

But I didn’t want to leave you hanging for a whole month, so I thought it would a great time to share some recent podcasts where I’ve been featured as a guest. 

First up, we have an episode on Beyond the Pipeline with Vivin Vergis, where we do a deep dive into reporting for B2B SaaS orgs. 

This is a tough, thorny, sometimes painful topic, but Vivin asked some really great questions and we explore how to tell better stories with data, create a culture of objectivity, prioritize ad-hoc requests, and a whole bunch more. 

Let’s dive in to the episode.

--------

In this episode of Beyond the Pipeline, host Vivin welcomes Justin Norris, Director of Marketing and BDR Operations at 360 Learning and host of the RevOpps FM podcast. Justin shares his journey into operations, transitioning from an English major to a pivotal figure in marketing operations. They dive deep into the challenges of reporting in B2B SaaS, discussing concepts like reporting fatigue, the importance of storytelling in data presentation, and handling impulsive reporting requests.

Justin emphasizes the need for a cultural shift towards objective data analysis and the role of ops in being accountable for business performance. Tune in to gain valuable insights on managing reporting requests, addressing cognitive biases, achieving a single source of truth, and avoiding reporting fatigue in B2B SaaS.

[00:02] Introduction and Justin’s Journey into Operations

• Justin shares his unique path from being an English major to becoming a pivotal figure in marketing operations.

[03:32] Reporting Fatigue in B2B SaaS

• Discussion on the challenges of data overload and how reporting fatigue sets in within organizations.

[07:22] Storytelling with Data

• The importance of creating a narrative around data and how effective communication can alleviate reporting fatigue.

[08:23] Handling Impulsive Reporting Requests

• Strategies for filtering and prioritizing reporting requests from different teams to avoid unnecessary work.

[14:38] Enabling Self-Serve Reporting

• Tips on empowering teams to generate their own reports and the role of ops in making tools accessible.

[19:35] Common Reporting Tools and Their Limitations

• Comparing the effectiveness of tools like Salesforce, Looker, and Tableau for self-serve and advanced reporting needs.

[27:58] Cognitive Bias in Reporting

• Addressing the impact of biases like confirmation bias in reporting and the importance of maintaining objectivity.

[35:45] Taking Action on Data Insights

• The critical role of follow-through on data insights and establishing a feedback loop for continuous improvement.

[39:49] Achieving a Single Source of Truth

• Challenges and strategies for creating a single source of truth in organizations and the trade-offs involved.

Martech continues to expand and shift at breakneck speed.

Hot startups from five years ago have become legacy incumbents. Some platforms consolidate into monolithic suites while other categories break apart into specialized point solutions. AI looms over everything, with potential to disrupt virtually every established paradigm.

Who better to guide us through this landscape than Phil Gamache, one of the humans behind the awesome Humans of Martech podcast?

Join us for a deep dive into the future of Martech and a behind-the-scenes glimpse at how Phil and Jon produce their show using the latest AI tools.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Phil Gamache is on a mission to future-proof the humans behind the tech and help them have successful and happy careers in marketing. During the day, he runs all things Growth at Pelago and during the weekends you can find him behind the mic on humansofmartech.com.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gamacp/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:40] - Origin of the Humans of Martech Podcast
• [03:42] - Importance of soft skills in becoming a martech leader
• [04:33] - Growing an audience for the show
• [08:00] - Importance of having a specific approach for the show. Enjoying the process of learning through being a host.
• [11:00] - Use of AI for creating podcast imagery and transcription
• [17:32] - What do we consider AI-generated imagery to be?
• [20:30] - Point of view on martech and being platform agnostic
• [25:21] - Phil’s ideal stack
• [26:47] - Benefits of a composable CDP architecture
• [30:17] - Definition of composability in martech
• [34:27] - Challenges of troubleshooting a composable stack
• [38:19] - The relative recency of the cloud-first warehouse and the transition to warehouse native tech
• [40:22] - How much does the tech matter, in the big picture of business?
• [42:19] - Phil’s take on the role of AI a year from now
• [44:20] - Propensity modelling
• [49:03] - Finding balance in life

• Humans of Martech – Future-proofing the humans behind the tech - The Humans of Martech website. Click on "episodes" to browse the huge back catalogue by topic.
• Midjourney - Image generator Phil uses to create the AI artwork for the show
• Insightface.ai - App Phil uses to incorporate photos into AI-generated photo.

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If you're looking to transition from a technical MOPS expert to a leader - or if you're an existing MOPS leader who wants to up their game - Jessica Kao is the person to learn from.

She built a career as an expert MOPS consultant before becoming an enterprise marketing ops leader.

Listen to this conversation and you'll quickly see: she's ridiculously good at the business side of marketing operations. She knows how to plan, how to communicate, and how to lead.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Jessica Kao is Senior Director, Marketing Operations and Martech at Cloudflare. She has 10+ years of experience inspiring a nation of marketers through authenticity.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesskao/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:40] - How Jessica defines the mandate of marketing ops. It is the accelerant to marketing. Everything flows through the pipes of marketing operations.
• [03:02] - How to determine if marketing ops is doing a good job. “Winning” means the CMO views you as a strategic partner and when you’re a bullet point in the board slide deck. But all projects should be aligned to the CMO’s initiatives and marketing KPIs. Marketing ops succeeds when the marketing team reaches its goals.
• [06:03] - Marketing ops shouldn’t just view themselves as the executor of another team’s strategy. Marketing ops can bring clarity, due to their position of visibility, the data we have, to spot trends, to provide feedback, etc. How do we make use of the data that we have to provide clarity to marketing leadership?
• [08:47] - Learning to be an internal advocate for the marketing ops team and navigating reluctance to be “self-promotional. ” The acceleration leap is the ability to translate what we do into something that provides business impact. Promoting the work we do is a by-product of bringing that clarity to the marketing team and focusing on the right things. Winning is not completing your tickets - it’s prioritization, doing the right things, providing clarity.
• [10:43] - The roadmapping process. Using an agile cadence, thinking of marketing technology like a product. Think about how you launch a project and create it. Quarterly planning and monthly sprints. Monthly sprints is the right fit. They have an “above the line / below the line” backlog. In a new company, shifting the balance from ad-hoc to roadmap. Being a consultant is helpful as it gives valuable skills in scoping.
• [13:54] - Learning to communicate incremental value instead of thinking of a project as needing to be 100% done and complete before delivering value. People get discouraged. Think of crawl/walk/run - crawling is still winning. This way people view MOPS as problem-solvers rather than blockers. Continuous delivery of incremental value.
• [15:46] - How to determine what should be prioritized. Jessica knows where they need to go in one, two, and three years, and that is her North Star. If you don’t have a roadmap, others will make one for you. Get buy-in from your boss and their peers.
• [17:23] - Translating features to stakeholder speak - what capabilities are you going to unlock. Quick-wins deliverables roadmap vs. plumbing/architecture/non-sexy roadmap. Jess has an external-facing roadmap...

Everyone is talking about how transformative AI is, but the information is still very piecemeal.

There are tons of app focused listicles or cool tricks for ChatGPT, but if you're like me, you don't have time to go looking for ways to put apps to work.

So I set out to take a comprehensive look at the business of marketing, breaking it down into the fundamental jobs to be done and creating practical guidance for marketers on how they might incorporate AI into their daily work in each area.

This episode covers four main applications that have me excited, but if you visit the link below, you can access an Airtable base with over 35 use cases and over 40 apps.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:30] - Why make this episode
• [03:17] - Unstructured text analysis
• [05:27] - Structured data analysis
• [09:47] - Visual media generation
• [11:37] - AI and workflow automation
• [15:09] - AI for creative writing
• [17:15] - Two visions of AI usage

• A Very Gentle Introduction to Large Language Models without the Hype - A useful primer to AI and large language models.

I follow the attribution software category pretty closely, and sometime in the last 6-12 months it felt like I started seeing HockeyStack everywhere in my LinkedIn feed.

They have multiple team members and executives posting regularly, producing unique and engaging content, and they are building in public, sharing tons of juicy details about their GTM strategy.

How did a relatively young startup come to appear so dominant so quickly? I invited HockeyStock's CRO to chat and unpack all the details.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Emir Atli is the co-founder and CRO of HockeyStack, the a B2B GTM Analytics platform.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/emircatli/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:27] - Origins of HockeyStack.
• [02:42] - What they saw that could be disrupted in the attribution space: a platform that didn't depend on Salesforce data and that was faster to implement. People buy these tools for two reasons: proving contribution and optimizing. There is most room to innovate around optimization.
• [04:56] - HockeyStack's go-to-market strategy. Starting with a goal to dominate LinkedIn, with co-founders posting daily. All GTM team members are expected to post. They focus not just on brand awareness but on making marketers smarter. Each team member has their own personality which shapes the content strategy. Finding the balance between entertainment and education.
• [09:53] - The Flow, HockeyStack's content platform.
• [10:39] - Sales strategy and process. Importance of the interactive demo. Use of a virtual sales room. Taking a consultative approach to selling. Working with the buyer's pace.
• [15:41] - Implementation and onboarding process (typically takes two weeks).
• [17:10] - How to be differentiated in showing value from the product once people buy it. Emphasis on flexibility - no-code dashboard builder, not locking people into templates.
• [18:59] - Data cleansing and data structure.
• [20:10] - Using data to tell better stories. Demonstrating what's actually working.
• [24:51] - Definition of incrementality reporting.
• [26:26] - How HockeyStack positions itself against competitors.
• [27:55] - Flexibility of the data model and dashboarding platform. Bringing in Snowflake data.
• [29:18] - Incorporating self-reported attribution. How many "dark social" touchpoints actually can be tracked.
• [33:12] - How HockeyStack innovates rapidly on the product. Impact of being in Y-Combinator.
• [35:49] - Marketing Mix Modelling - what it is and how to use it.

• HockeyStack - Official Site

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Jill Rowley is a legend in SaaS, with early tenures at Salesforce and Eloqua. As one of Eloqua's first salespeople, she helped shape the category of marketing automation and was also an early pioneer of social selling.

Today she is helping evangelize a new perspective on partner-led growth, which she calls "nearbound."

Jill and I talk about what it was like selling cloud-based software in the early oughts, helping the first customers to use marketing automation, and what it means to go to market with partners.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

23 years in SaaS. Early employee at Salesforce (first 100), Eloqua (#13), HubSpot Advisor (2014-2016), Marketo (2018).

Loves startups, especially category creators - - in the trenches building Nearbound.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillrowley/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:23] - Start of Jill's career at Salesforce.
• [03:08] - How Jill pitched SaaS in the early days of cloud software. Salesforce's guerilla marketing tactics.
• [04:47] - Moving to Eloqua as employee thirteen. Creating the category of marketing automation. Evangelizing for the importance of marketers on revenue.
• [10:05] - Early days of service partnerships at Eloqua. Co-selling with David Lewis.
• [11:54] - Types of service partner relationships. How there can be power-disparities and bad dynamics between smaller service partners and larger vendors. How many companies still view service partners as a source of leads rather than a way to build credibility and influence with prospects. There are bad fit partners. Need to have organized partner ecosystem data.
• [15:26] - Definition of nearbound. Living in market with your partners. Differences from inbound and outbound. Looking at a practical, hypothetical example: Clari and Hubspot.
• [20:41] - Addressing potential criticism of the partner-led approach: that it's too slow. Why you can't go to market with 1,500 partners.
• [24:01] - Why the value of partnerships is far more than leads. Top-down vs. bottom-up partnerships. Why both are important.
• [29:50] - Partner ops. Reference to Scott Brinker's article (see resource links).

• nearbound.com | The future of GTM is here - Official Nearbound website.
• Partner Ops: The forgotten ops that’s suddenly thriving in the ecosystem era - Scott Brinker's article on partner ops.

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Your GTM message has an incredibly difficult task: to speak to the people who will love your product and take them from a place of disinterest and zero context to a place of understanding and excitement.

When done well, it’s pure magic.

I think that every GTM and ops professional should be familiar with how to do this, and so I asked my old boss, Mitch Solway, to join me for a masterclass in messaging.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Mitch Solway is a 5x VP of Marketing who has led teams at Lavalife, Freshbooks, Vidyard, and Clearfit, among others. Today he works as a Fractional CMO for startups.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:28] - How Mitch defines the hierarchy of messaging. He starts at the end, considering the outcome he’s trying to achieve. Then you can reverse engineer what you need to get to that point, starting with positioning, then copy, then messaging.
• [02:55] - The end result for Mitch is two stories: one broad, one narrow. The narrow story is targeted at your “Can’t Miss Customer.” This is your ideal customer. You need to understand everything about this person. Mitch calls this “Is this you?” marketing. You tell the prospect a story, and if you know them really well, your Can’t-Miss Customer will identify themselves in your message. Focusing on the person and their world vs. on your product.
• [04:55] - We don’t tell our customer’s story enough. We need to realize we are only 5% of the customer’s world - important to understand the other 95%. Interview your best customers, then translate those stories back to other prospects.
• [07:33] - The broad story. This is when you’re introducing something new to the market. You need to educate people to create a vision of an “inevitable future.” Getting the market to see the world the way you see it. Example of doing this with Vidyard using influencers to educate the market with a very low budget.
• [13:26] - Creating the “narrow story” for Vidyard. The litmus test for the narrow story is, can you get the person from no context to being excited in three questions. Mitch calls this the “context rollercoaster.” Examples of how this works in practices. If you can do this, you’ve found the “nerve center” that you need to touch on.
• [18:17] - Your product isn’t that important to the customer, most likely. Even if they use it, it’s just a fraction of their world. You need to show them that you understand their pain to spark interest. Example of why this is important in outbound. Example of how Mitch tweaked the messaging at Clearfit to better align with customer truths and how that message was conveyed in radio ads.
• [21:52] - Example of competing with ZipRecruiter on the radio. They had raised funds and were outspending 20:1. Mitch tweaked the messaging to turn the competitor’s strength into a weakness.
• [23:57] - Process for creating a messaging framework from scratch. Start with internal interviews with key stakeholders. 90% of that process is about internal alignment. For positioning, he uses April Dunford’s framework and conducts a workshop with key stakeholders. Prior to that workshop he interviews existing customers that the company wants to get more of....

Refine Labs has changed the course of B2B marketing over the past few years.

Challenging conventions on attribution and funnel tracking and championing new ways of generating demand, this agency has broken pretty much every mold and driven the conversation and debate.

Today we're joined by SVP of Marketing Sidney Waterfall, who produces much of the Refine Labs IP and brings together both deep demand gen and RevOps expertise. In this in-depth discussion we unpack the nitty-gritty of the Refine Labs methodology.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Sidney Waterfall is SVP of Marketing at Refine Labs, with responsibility for GTM strategy, demand generation, product marketing, product strategy, and ultimately driving revenue for Refine Labs services and products.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidneywaterfall/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:02] - Sidney's background and how she joined Refine Labs.
• [02:25] - Issues in B2B marketing today. Many people still running a lead gen approach. Lack of focus on data structure and operations, although macroeconomic conditions forcing people to become more data driven.
• [05:19] - Defining terms - lead gen, demand gen, demand capture, demand conversion.
• [07:47] - More companies implementing this approach in recent years. But some still struggle with making the transition. How Refine Labs helps companies make that strategic shift. First step is accepting that buyer behavior has changed. Requires deep alignment at the leadership level. Changing measurement and KPIs, from lead generation to higher intent pipeline. This provokes terror in some. Overcoming objections. Indicators to look at.
• [15:22] - What it means to run a demand creation campaign and how to do it. You don't need a huge evangelist in your company. Only 20-25% of Refine Labs clients have that. It starts with the content that's on your high-value product and solutions pages. This gives the campaign strategy or angle. You take that and package it for both paid and organic. This content communicates problem awareness. You can also work with content teams, take assets like blog posts and repackage them for social. Distribute it in a buyer-centric way - un-gated, designed for the platform, unique. You need some offer in the middle, like a podcast or live event series, that people can engage with.
• [20:35] - Whether this approach can work for everyone. It requires a basic repeatable sales process and the ability to talk to prospects. If you don't know how to convert a buyer when they are in a sales cycle, you won't know how to create demand.
• [22:13] - The role of ops in a demand creation GTM strategy. Ops is pivotal. There's a strategic side and a tactical side. If ops is a strategic function in your org, you will have a powerhouse org. They need to offer not just data but insights - that's the step up there. Justin notes that ops leaders need to be revenue leaders in their own right, not just in service of others.
• [28:13] - How to configure systems for attribution. First step is standardized UTM values. Important to track session-based UTMs - so first touch but also tracking UTMs for each session that results in a conversion. A conversion is anytime your sales team is...

In a world where we have so much tech, it's amazing that revenue planning and forecasting remain relatively primitive in most companies.

You could have literally a million dollar tech stack and yet still be creating your business plan with a spreadsheet and forecasting results with a best guess from sales.

Today we look at how to go beyond the spreadsheet paradigm with the CEO of Growblocks, a revenue planning and analytics platform. We'll explore whether it's possible to have a truly predictable forecast and how operators can spot and fix issues before they become million dollar problems.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Toni is the CEO of Growblocks. He spent years as a B2B SaaS CRO and revenue operator, achieving multiple exits. Through this experience, he created a revenue operating operating model that helped his company hit targets 12 quarters in a row. This model was later on used as the basis for Growblocks.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonihohlbein/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:33] - Toni's background. Founding Growblocks. Sharing a focus on data-driven, system-thinking approach to revenue with his co-founders.
• [04:27] - Most forecasting tools focus on only on the opportunity forecast, ignoring the rest of the funnel. Why there aren't more companies building software for full-funnel planning. Forecasts are split into silos. Once you forecast the full funnel, you can identify how a gap in one stage translates to revenue impact further down.
• [07:40] - How Toni explains this vision to the market and what benefits people are connecting with. When people finally see their actual revenue engine end-to-end for the first time, it's a huge impact.
• [10:09] - Flaws with the planning process today. How the planning process should take place: top-down and bottom up meeting in the middle.
• [14:09] - The impact of the tech bubble on the planning process and how it has distorted expectations and behaviour. You can only be efficient once you are predictable.
• [18:00] - The factors that lead to predictability. The first comes from understanding your sales engine as a whole through the entire funnel. Not relying on sales people that can pull rabbits from hats. The second factor is proactively spotting issues and jumping on them quickly.
• [21:39] - Issues with marketing and sales alignment. Why marketing will hit their number but sales misses theirs. Toni doesn't have an issue with MQLs, so long as the company splits handraisers from non-handraisers. Then marketing can't just hit their number with low-intent MQLs.
• [25:24] - Outbound is still alive and kicking. Think of it as the delivery mechanism for a message. Importance of choosing channels that work for your audience. Someone may not be on LinkedIn but they are listening to the radio all day.
• [28:32] - Starting to dive into the Growblocks platform. Growblocks works with any kind of funnel design and is also configurable across different dimensions. Solving for garbage-in-garbage-out problems. If data points are missing, it's best to go up a level and exclude that step, then circle back to it when better data is available....

What lies ahead for marketing operations? How can it become more strategic and impactful?

Darrell Alfonso has spent the past ten years answering these questions through his work at companies like AWS and Indeed. He's also dedicated himself to moving the discipline of marketing ops forward as an author, teacher, speaker, and thought-leader.

In this episode, he shares his vision of how marketing operations can encompass both strategy and technical expertise and describes how MOPS practitioners can level-up in their careers.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Darrell Alfonso is a 2x Marketo Champion, course instructor, Author of "The Martech Handbook", and frequent speaker and thought-leader.

He's held marketing and operations leadership positions at Indeed, Amazon Web Services, Hitwise, and the American Marketing Association.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrellalfonso/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [00:58] - Darrell's definition of marketing operations: the art and science of executing great marketing. Key pillars: planning and strategy, technology management, process design, analytics, business alignment.
• [02:48] - Evolution of marketing ops from being tech-centric to business-centric.
• [04:59] - Challenges of that evolutionary process. Potential discomfort within ops of moving into a role where they have revenue accountability. MOPS people have an allegiance to craft, but should focus on what the business needs.
• [07:43] - Risk of feeling powerless or misunderstood. Need for operators to better communicate our value.
• [09:25] - Darrell's background in communications and how it's impacted his career. The importance of communication within operations and how it's helped him grow as a leader. Internal communication is not about being self-promotional. It's about playing together effectively as a team (analogy of a sports team).
• [14:43] - How Darrell's role combines both strategy and operations. Strategy is the set of choices we make in service of an objective. Tactics at one level of the business become the strategy for the next level. Discussion of how this applies within Darrell's current company.
• [26:08] - Description of Darrell's team and how it functions. How marketing technology sits within a separate Business Systems function.
• [29:46] - What Darrell's ideal org structure would look like. Pros and cons of separating tech into a Business Systems group. Need for technologists to have technical leadership. Similar issue applies with SDRs and whether they report into marketing or sales.
• [36:25] - Building a personal brand in marketing operations. Benefits and how to do it. Difference between personal branding and cultivating an audience.

• The Marketing Operations Handbook: A Complete Guide to Marketing Operations - Darrell referenced this book, by revenue operator Michael McKinnon, several times during the episode.

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Benjamin Marchal is perhaps the most effective revenue operator I've ever met.

We work together, and so I've been fortunate to collaborate with Ben often. I've learned a ton from studying him in action.

However I wanted to go deeper into exactly how he's so effective while shouldering massive responsibility as COO of a $50 million ARR company.

We go deep into his vision of operations and unpack the mindset, routines, and methodologies that help him be successful.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Benjamin Marchal is COO of 360Learning, a learning platform that enables companies to upskill from within by turning their experts into champions for employee, customer, and partner growth.

Ben worked at McKinsey for two years before joining 360Learning, where he started as an Operations Manager and progressed to become COO in 4 years.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-marchal-89a01180/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:15] - Ben's vision of operations. Ops exists to help each team perform better today and to be ready for the future. Four key activities. 1) Source of truth for KPIs. 2) Identifying improvement areas. 3) Helping teams implement those improvements. 4) Maintaining and running the business.
• [02:38] - How Ops teams can balance taking requests from teams they support with proactively pursuing strategic improvements. If Ops teams don't monitor KPIs, then they are stuck in implementation mode and don't partake in strategic discussions. Conversely if they focus solely on strategy, they become disconnected from the field and fail. Both are important.
• [05:34] - How Ops teams can make time for reviewing KPIs. Ben looks at them first thing every morning. Creates a sense of ownership. The need to create a KPI tree (first, second, third-level metrics). Creates a clear picture of where to focus efforts. This enables strategic discussion with executives and ability to push back on requests. Importance of being fact-based, rational, agnostic.
• [11:24] - Ben's experience at McKinsey and how it's impacted him. Types of projects at McKinsey. The onboarding experience.
• [16:48] - Ben's journey at 360Learning, going from Operations Manager to COO. Development of incentives models. Working in Customer Success Ops, fixing churn. Demonstrated that applying the McKinsey model to in-house operations worked well. Began to coach the Operations team. Building the data team. Creating the business plan - demonstrated that he understood the business end-to-end, more exposure to investors and the Board. Move to COO. He isn't a functional expert in every scope, but his job is to make sure the company works on the right things.
• [22:19] - Ben's mindset and whether it's evolved as he's gained more responsibility. He believes the mindset has been the same. Four critical things: 1) Being low ego, agnostic. Focused on data and what it shows. 2) Being both big picture and granular at the same time. 3) Ability to cut through noise and prioritize. 4) Ability to communicate at different levels. These are all things he learned at McKinsey.
• [26:10] - Looking at a practical example of how Ben

Enabling revenue teams to use the systems we build and maintain is a huge part of our job as revenue operators. Unfortunately for us, it often doesn’t work very well.

We create documents that no one reads.

They sit in knowledge bases that no one visits.

We're repeatedly interrupted by Slack messages from confused users.

We're forced to send Chatter reminders asking people to PLEASE follow the process for the 500th time. 

Today’s guest thinks that there’s a better way to do software enablement, and he founded a company called Tango to deliver on that promise.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Daniel Giovacchini is COO and Co-Founder at Tango, a tool for creating how-to documentation and software walkthroughs that drive digital process adoption.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-giovacchini/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:52] - AI and changes in the tech market
• [06:33] - Two approaches to enablement
• [10:43] - Building a minimum-lovable product
• [20:44] - Bottom-up monetization
• [29:38] - Learning in the flow of work
• [36:37] - The knowledge management stack
• [40:09] - Role as COO

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• Create software training guides, in minutes | Tango

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Sanford (“Sandy”) Whiteman is a legend in the Marketo world.

A software developer by trade, he’s one of a small handful of engineers who have focused specifically on marketing platforms and problems - not merely as a one-time project or side interest but as a dedicated speciality.

Sandy is the #1 all-time contributor in the Marketo product community with over 23,500 posts and an honorary community moderator designation.

He's also been a great friend and teacher to me over the years and a collaborator on many projects.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Sanford Whiteman is Chief Technologist at FigureOne, a Marketo development agency.

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:05] - Sandy’s background and how he entered the Marketo world. His start as an IT security person. Developing an app for the textbook publishing industry. First Marketo project: to fix Munchkin. Reverse engineering the Munchkin script. Developing fluency in the Marketo UI.
• [04:58] - Why Sandy took the Munchkin script seriously. Enjoyment of niche knowledge and desire to discover what is currently unknown. Previous experience reverse engineering Microsoft SMTP server. People even at Marketo/Adobe not fully understanding the product internals. They are not front-end people.
• [08:17] - Justin’s perspective on when Sandy entered the Marketo community. People guessing or speculating at how things worked technically but without a technical background. The contrast when a real developer focused on the same topics. Sandy’s desire to not guess and to spread accurate knowledge about systems. How early developers scoffed at cloud-based systems and refused to support them. How developer skepticism towards MarTech systems may be rooted in a resentment from the IT team. IT questioning why the company would pay for a system they believe (erroneously) could be built in-house.
• [11:49] - Why “mainstream” developers who are otherwise talented produce bad work in the MarTech world (e.g., poor integrations) and show a lack of curiosity about it. Disparagement of marketing within the developer community. Lack of understanding of core components of marketing automation: SMTP, landing pages, databases. Belief that these are unsophisticated technology. Internal IT resources haven’t had to manage email servers for 15 years or more. That knowledge has died out, leading to lack of understanding. Perceived primacy of back-end developers over front-end developers. Disparagement of JavaScript.
• [20:49] - The rationale for investing hours of time investigating obscure issues. How mastery of obscure knowledge becomes useful when those situations do arise.
• [24:32] - The challenge of being a technical consultant to marketers: you’re downstream of strategy. Discussion of how it feels to work on marketing projects where the strategy is flawed or creative seems ineffective. The political challenges of giving feedback as a consultant. Sandy’s frustrating situation with a client claiming the Marketo Lead ID is PII. How there’s also a prestige that can come with being a consultant.
• [32:19] - Sanford’s perspective on the...

Today we're joined by Jen Igartua, a RevOps leader and 10+ year operations consultant.

We discuss her vision of the go-to-market engine as a product, how to ensure the work of RevOps is aligned with C-level priorities, and the importance of focus for enabling deep work.

Jen shares some awesome knowledge here for how RevOps teams can achieve greater impact and how operators can level-up their careers.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Jen Igartua is CEO of Go Nimbly, a revenue operations consultancy for scaling businesses.

From Jen's LinkedIn: "I’m...working with high-growth companies to create a frictionless, human buying experience with RevOps."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jen-igartua/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:02] - Jen’s consulting background. How she helped start Go Nimbly.
• [02:37] - Definition of RevOps. Metaphor of a business as a film studio, where the goal is to make a movie, GTM teams are actors, and RevOps is the director.
• [03:56] - How operators can step into this director role. If you’re mid-to-junior level and in a company that doesn’t get RevOps, you likely won’t make a huge impact and need to find another environment. Or it may be more a matter of you needing to improve your skills. These include the ability to say no, having an intake process, and keeping priorities aligned to the C-level.
• [07:31] - Whether operators have a self-limiting mindset, focused on their craft vs. business impact. Growth mindset is important. A lot of this is new and people are still figuring it out.
• [08:34] - RevOps as a product and whether the “customer” is the GTM teams or the literal external customer. Jen’s point of view is that we need to understand what RevOps truly brings to the business and to the things the CEO cares about. Sometimes that may be solving for customer needs, but in other times it could be something different (e.g., data readiness in preparation for an IPO). Ultimately we achieve our customer-facing goals via the GTM teams, so we need to care about their experience and happiness.
• [14:52] - How Go Nimbly interacts with the different GTM teams. Whether RevOps is just sales ops rebranded. How silos form and evolve in companies. People are good at aligning vertically but poor at aligning horizontally.
• [18:13] - People align themselves based on how power and authority flows in an organization. If the CMO and CRO aren’t aligned, their teams won’t be either. Justin’s experience on the importance of having a unifying force, like a COO, to bring them into alignment. Jen thinks this is ideal, although not something every company has. Ultimately a company is like a complex system. All systems have weaknesses, and so we need to mitigate those weaknesses somehow.
• [20:22] - Gap-first thinking: how to identify initiatives with the biggest impact. Start with the business gap vs. with ideas in a backlog. When you have your goal, then identify what levers you can pull to reach it. Typically these levers include “3VC” - volume, velocity, value, and conversion. You can identify where your weaknesses are via reporting or through durability testing (aka stress testing). Go ahead and become the customer.
• [24:32] - Why gap-first thinking is...

Note: I've also shared a full video version of this episode, where you can see me screen share everything I'm describing. You can find it here:

Documentation Episode - Full Video

I’m incredibly (absurdly? ridiculously?) enthusiastic about documentation.

Part of that is just my personality, but it’s also because I’ve seen what a game-changer good documentation can be.

This first hit home when I started consulting. It was incredibly stressful (in the very early days) to work on poorly documented projects. They were filled with assumptions, misunderstandings, client disappointment, and re-work.

We quickly improved our documentation game, and it was transformative. We now had a clear source of truth for what each project should be, approved by the client before we started building. It also created space to think things through in more detail.

However, each doc existed in isolation. We never had the mandate or scope to create a complete knowledge base for any one client.

When I started my next in-house job and we began a company-wide Confluence implementation, I finally had the chance to go beyond disconnected documentation and build a true RevOps knowledge base.

This video shares everything I’ve learned, including a screen-share walk-through of my team’s knowledge base and tips for overcoming the time deficit that every team faces when trying to create docs.

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Data is the raw material we work with in marketing. You can come up amazing campaign ideas. You can even build them out. But if your data is junk, everything falls apart. Today's guest spent a decade building Digital Pi, a top marketing automation agency, and is now making a pivot to customer data ops.

We chat about the data problems facing revenue teams, the issues with traditional data warehouse approaches, and why Syncari is his data platform of choice.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Ryan Vong is a marketing technology leader with over 20 years experience. He was the founder and CEO of Digital Pi, a global marketing automation agency acquired by Merkle Inc. in 2020. In 2023, he founded Helix CXM, an agency providing data operations for revenue teams.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanvong/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [00:45] - Evolution of marketing operations over the last decade.
• [03:08] - Marketing ops vs. sales ops. Need for marketing operations to become more strategic. Campaign execution becoming commoditized. Limits on the size of MOPS teams.
• [05:59] -Marketing operations as a force for accountability, evaluating effectiveness. Approaches and challenges in interpreting the customer journey. Not all the data is there.
• [08:24] - Ryan's pivot to customer data ops and founding CXM. The pains he saw that led him in this direction. How marketing automation was limited by dirty data. Helix is data operations for the revenue team. AI requires clean data to function properly.
• [13:02] - Data operations involves both technical and process / strategy components. How Ryan aims to address those. Three phases of data - as a utility, as an enabler, as a driver. Data as a utility is the first priority.
• [14:49] - Perspective on traditional data warehouse/lake. Centralized system is needed, but with current approach it's too slow. Everything is outdated by the time it's ready.
• [18:25] - Deep dive into Syncari, why Ryan selected it, what makes it unique. Single source of truth vs. distributed truth. Ability for users to work where they are already comfortable. Having a data store incorporated into the tool. Similarity to how the Marketo/Salesforce sync works. Ability to revert to previous state.
• [24:02] - Ownership of the customer data engine within the organization. Natural home is within revenue ops teams. Collaboration with IT department.
• [25:36] - Structure of a data ops engagement. Ability to preview data before turning the system on. Importance of speed/agility. Build vs. run components of the engagement. Data monitoring - similar to home security monitoring.
• [29:29] - Lessons learned and plans for taking the agency founder's journey a second time.

• Helix CXM - Ryan’s agency website.
• Salesforce Shouldn’t Be Your Single Source of Truth - Top Reasons Why - Syncari article about a single source of truth vs. distributed truth.

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for...

Operations can be difficult in organizations of any size, but in large companies, there are special challenges.

What does it take to succeed as an ops leader in the world's biggest enterprises?

Today's guest is a former marketing ops leader from Marketo, Adobe, Slack, and Salesforce. He delivers a master class on navigating enterprise complexity.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Paul Wilson has been a sales and marketing leader, consultant, and marketing operations executive at some of the largest companies in the world, including Marketo, Adobe, Slack, Salesforce, and OneTrust. Today he is the CEO of GTM Systems.

From Paul's LinkedIn: "GTM Systems is dedicated to reinventing the intersection of marketing, sales, and customer success operations into a unified go-to-market operations framework."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/pwtoday/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:24] - Which type of work/company size has been most rewarding for Paul. Enjoyment from working with people to solve challenges.
• [03:54] - What to do when joining a new enterprise. Establishing the mandate of the role and what resources you have.
• [05:54] - The role of marketing ops in the enterprise. Important distinctions between MOPs and Sales Ops. Lack of sandbox environments in the MarTech stack creating greater risk. Everything is in production. Marketers are reliant on their tools to deliver experiences and are more impacted by issues.
• [09:00] - Why we can't we have sandboxes in MarTech. Possible perception of finance that this is less critical. Proximity of CRM to IT. Growing distinction between operations and technology in many companies. Business Systems / IT teams absorbing sales tech.
• [16:09] - Relationship between marketing operations and marketing strategy. The right way to relate to stakeholders. Need for campaign engineering and MOPS to have a voice in marketing planning discussions. Analogy to a structural engineer in discussions of building construction.
• [23:50] - The biggest changes someone should expect moving from a smaller org to an enterprise company. Big companies don't move quickly. Importance of establishing relationships with navigators who can teach you. The experience taught Paul how to communicate effort, developing tiered messaging for different levels of the organization.
• [36:28] - Inevitability of dysfunction in an enterprise. Will all enterprises approach being a real-life Dilbert strip? Some dysfunction comes with the territory.
• [40:21] - The coolest/most complex projects are in enterprise. Paul's experience doing large projects and the thrill they bring.
• [43:04] - Is Paul a lucky charm for M&A?
• [43:41] - The implications of AI be for marketing. Justin sees some benefit as a convenience / efficiency tool but is skeptical of generative capabilities. Paul believes AI will be revolutionary, but we are still in the "dot-matrix" phase. Discussion of ethical concerns.
• [48:56] - Paul's new firm, GTM Systems.

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

B2B Marketing can be broadly grouped into eras based on specific go-to-market strategies that were dominant at the time.

Today's guest played a pivotal role in the development of not just one but two (!) of these era-defining strategies: lead generation / content marketing and account-based marketing (ABM).

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Jon Miller was the co-founder and first CMO of Marketo, CEO of Engagio, and CMO of DemandBase.

From Jon's LinkedIn: "Jon has played a pivotal role in shaping the world’s most disruptive marketing technology platforms, with a focus on thought leadership, category creation, and strategic go-to-market."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2/

• [01:30] - Founding of Marketo, positioning against Eloqua
• [05:25] - Jon's early use of content marketing, around the same time as Hubspot. Definitive Guides.
• [10:45] - Marketo's early revenue process. Lead scoring. SDR qualification.
• [13:50] - Issues with the lead generation model.
• [21:13] - Rise of ABM. Founding of Engagio. Relationship with Terminus and DemandBase. Flip My Funnel. Acquisition of Engagio.
• [29:06] - Effectiveness of ABM. Challenges. Importance of seeing ABM as a spectrum vs. a binary.
• [34:05] - Jon's axioms of marketing
• [35:50] - Development of marketing operations. RevOps. What marketing operations needs to do to be more strategic.
• [45:05] - What's next in GTM? Potential impact of AI.

• The Marketing Playbook I Helped Create Doesn’t Work Anymore. Here’s the New B2B Marketing Playbook. - Jon's article on the issues with the lead generation playbook he helped create.

Discuss this episode over at the Revops FM SubStack community:

LinkedIn - General

Hi I'm Justin 👋 - creator and host of RevOps FM. In this short trailer episode, I walk through why I created the podcast and what you can expect.

There's lots of RevOps content out there - so why listen to this show? One unique feature is that I'm not selling or representing any particular product or point of view.

My main goal is to figure out what works and how to be the best RevOps leader/practitioner I can be. That curiosity and desire to learn is the driving force of the show, and it means I can be as honest and objective as possible.

Three motivators for creating the podcast:

• Thinking out loud about RevOps and GTM strategy, in dialogue with some of the smartest folks in the industry.
• Sharing knowledge at scale.
• Looking critically at what works and challenging conventional wisdom.

If you want stay in touch, head over to the show website, where you can subscribe to our newsletter. This gives you access to new episode notifications, podcast clips, and other bonus content.

RevOps.fm

Matt Volm is the founder of RevOps Co-op, a vibrant community for RevOps pros.

He shares his journey as a repeat founder, who has taken the roller-coaster of building multiple startups, and reflects on the tenacity and toughness it requires.

RevOps Co-op actually started as a community in support of a software company, but when Matt saw the need for more education and resources for the RevOps field, he pivoted and hasn't looked back.

Matt and I discuss the crucial interplay between finance and RevOps, how RevOps pros can build their finance acumen, the hot debate on unified vs. split RevOps functions, and much more.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Matt Volm is a repeat founder and CEO of RevOps Co-op, a community for folks who love revenue operations. He's also a scout at Mucker Capital, focused on early stage B2B software. Matt has an MBA from Berkeley Haas and a background in strategic finance, operations and business development.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewvolm/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:01] - Finance and RevOps
• [07:01] - Developing finance literacy
• [10:15] - Operating during the tech bubble
• [12:35] - Unified vs. split RevOps
• [21:13] - RevOps Co-op
• [27:53] - Lessons learned as a repeat founder
• [32:00] - The community-led business model
• [39:05] - What’s next for RevOps?

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• RevOps Co-op
• I just shut down my startup. Here’s what I learned.

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

Content has been the lifeblood of how B2B companies go to market for at least 20 years, since Hubspot pioneered the concept of Inbound Marketing.

We make content, we drip it out, we nurture people with it, we align it with our funnels, and we have a conviction that it makes people buy things—although that's also quite difficult to prove.

The content game is not going anywhere, but it IS changing. And to guide us through those changes, we're chatting today with B2B content expert Ashley Faus, Head of Lifecycle Marketing at Atlassian.

Ashley challenges traditional content mapping to the B2B funnel and introduces the idea of a "content playground" where people engage with content in a way that suits them best in a non-linear, non-standard journey.

She also delves into the different intents behind content (buy, use, help, trust), the different levels of content (conceptual, strategic, tactical), the nuances between individual and brand-led content, and the growing role of B2B creators.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Ashley Faus is a marketer, writer, speaker by day, and a singer, actor, fitness fiend by night.

She's a leading content marketing expert who loves telling the high-level stories that resonate with an audience and connecting the dots between types of assets and distribution channels. For the past seven years, she's been the Head of Lifecycle Marketing, Portfolio, at Atlassian.

Her writing has been published on TIME, Forbes, MarketingProfs, and The Muse, and she's spoken on various marketing topics for INBOUND, Harvard Business Review, and MarketingProfs.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyfaus/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:17] - A brief history of content marketing
• [04:41] - Over-indexing on attribution
• [08:55] - Different types of content intent
• [15:42] - Individual vs. brand-led content
• [19:12] - B2B creators
• [29:24] - The content playground
• [45:52] - Email as a consumption channel
• [49:02] - Treating people as a whole human
• [51:47] - Content formats
• [54:54] - AI

• Create a “Content Playground” that’s Fun for Buyers (and Lucrative for You)

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

In this week's episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of sales with Jacco van der Kooij, founder of Winning by Design and a renowned expert in go-to-market strategies.

We begin by reflecting on the "Golden Age of SaaS," a period defined by rapid growth but also unsustainable business dynamics. As market conditions shift, we explore how revenue teams must adapt to thrive in the current environment.

AI is becoming an integral part of the sales industry. Jacco shares his insights on how AI will transform sales roles, automating many tasks that currently consume significant time and resources and shrinking the number of jobs.

Revenue Operations has a crucial role in this changing landscape, as the only function positioned to optimize the end-to-end buying process.

Join us for a thoughtful discussion on the past, present, and future of sales, and gain valuable insights from one of the industry's leading minds.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Jacco van der Kooij is an internationally renowned author, business leader, and thought leader on revenue growth and strategy. He is the founder of Winning By Design, a global B2B revenue consulting and training company, which consults for and trains GTM teams at companies such as Uber Eats, DocuSign, MURAL and OwnBackup.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaccovanderkooij/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:27] - The Golden Age of SaaS
• [04:21] - The old style vs. the new style of buying
• [08:34] - Adapting to the new reality
• [16:19] - Sales rockstars vs. consistent process
• [19:01] - The role of RevOps in establishing repeatability
• [26:50] - How to get salespeople to follow process
• [32:06] - AI vs. humans in sales
• [46:14] - Increasing focus on delivering impact

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• Winning by Design Resource Library
• Revenue Architecture Book, by Jacco van der Kooij
• The Revenue Formula Podcast - The SaaS Reset and what's next
• Marc Andreeson - Why Software is Eating the...

Is the future of SaaS growth product-led or sales-led? What if it's both? Zapier uses PLG to create an ecosystem of users and product signals which then drives their sales-led outreach.

Coordinating these motions in parallel takes technical sophistication, great communication, and tight process. Fortunately, they have a unified RevOps team that keeps everyone on the same page.

This week we chat with Lindsay Rothlisberger, Director of RevOps at Zapier, about how her team helps the magic happen.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Lindsay Rothlisberger is a dedicated Revenue Operations Leader with a background enriched in marketing. She thrives on transforming ideas into strategies that improve the customer experience and business metrics. She currently serves as Director of Revenue Operations at Zapier, and has previously held marketing positions at UNiDAYS, Oracle, and Blackboard.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsay-rothlisberger/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [00:59] - The RevOps scope at Zapier
• [02:52] - Blending PLG and Sales-Led Funnels
• [15:11] - How RevOps helps coordinate different GTM motions
• [22:19] - Org and reporting structure
• [28:49] - Planning and prioritization
• [34:05] - Tech stack and governance
• [41:07] - Tracking signals and CRM architecture

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• How Zapier created a centralized revenue operations team

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

B2B buying signals are generating a lot of buzz right now—and for good reason.

In today's challenging selling environment, conversion rates are dipping, and identifying active buyers has become more critical than ever. Signal vendors offer a promising solution, but the questions remain: Are these signals truly transformative? How can they enhance your go-to-market strategy? And what the heck is a "signal" anyhow?

In this episode, Chris Walker joins me to demystify the concept of buying signals. With his characteristic clarity and candor, Chris sheds light on why he's emphasizing signals as a key driver for efficient growth.

Regular listeners will know Chris as a significant influence on my thinking. I’ve learned a lot from him over the years, making it a true pleasure to finally have him on the show.

Tune in as we cut through the noise and delve into the real impact of B2B buying signals.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Chris Walker is a serial entrepreneur and go-to-market thought leader. In 2019 he founded Refine Labs, the leading B2B Digital Marketing and Demand Generation agency, growing it to an 8-figure revenue business with a dominating digital presence in less than 3 years. In 2024 he launched Passetto, a tech-enabled GTM Strategy Consultancy that helps B2B executives identify and execute against their highest priority growth levers with confidence and clarity. Chris is host of B2B Revenue Vitals (formerly State of Demand Gen), one of the top marketing and GTM podcasts.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chriswalker171/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:34] - Shifting focus to signals
• [08:03] - What is a signal?
• [11:59] - The signal data layer
• [18:12] - Connection between demand creation and signals
• [21:13] - Landscape of signal tools
• [24:39] - Identifying high-converting signals
• [36:25] - Inbound vs. outbound
• [40:34] - How RevOps can level up

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Newsletter

Thanks to our friends at Hatch for producing this episode. Get unlimited podcast editing at www.hatch.fm

Sales leadership is one of the hardest jobs in the company. Your success is black and white—you've either hit your number, or you haven't—and getting a group of sellers moving in the same direction isn’t easy, as anyone in RevOps knows.

Today we're joined by Kyle Asay to dig into what separates top-performing sales leaders from the rest. We talk about how to scale sales excellence, balance standardization with creativity, and build trust and rapport at every stage of the sales process.

Kyle also shares his insights on navigating the transition from individual contributor to sales leader, the real role of AI in outbound, and how to build a side hustle while leading a team.

Packed with practical frameworks and hard-won lessons, this conversation is a must-listen for sales leaders, individual sellers, and revenue operators supporting sales teams.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Kyle Asay started his career in sales as an SDR at Qualtrics, where he qualified for five consecutive President’s Clubs as an AE, front-line leader, and second-line leader.

After an incredible 8.5 years at Qualtrics, he's gone on to serve as a sales leader for MongoDB and currently at LaunchDarkly.

You can also find him sharing his frameworks with over 10,000 sellers at SalesIntroverts.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleasay/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:52] - Current selling environment
• [04:46] - Scaling sales excellence
• [10:05] - Right-sizing discovery phase
• [12:39] - Building trust and rapport
• [17:53] - Transitioning from sales IC to sales leader
• [20:46] - The job of a sales leader
• [24:10] - Identifying the right people
• [27:47] - Standardized process vs. individual ingenuity
• [30:59] - Handling the pressure of sales leadership
• [34:55] - AEs and SDR alignment
• [42:47] - AI SDRs
• [44:59] - Sales and RevOps relationship
• [48:23] - Building a side hustle

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• Sales Introverts

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In this episode, we unravel how advanced AI workflows can scale a truly effective outbound strategy (and not just create more spam).

Jordan Crawford shares his expertise on how to use AI to automate deep research, identify the most targeted accounts, and develop unique and relevant messaging—all without falling into the trap of reductive "AI SDR" approaches.

We also explore how to leverage AI as a thought partner, the future structure of BizDev teams, and why Clay is all the rage right now.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Jordan Crawford has been in growth for over 10 years, and for the past three and a half has been the founder of Blueprint, an agency that specializes in structuring any data from the public web about your ideal prospects. He's also been an advisor to Clay since 2021.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordancrawford/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:59] - Changes in the outbound landscape
• [06:41] - How to use AI as a thought-partner
• [11:28] - Why AI SDRs are not the future
• [14:28] - AI in the writing process
• [20:42] - What WILL replace the SDR function
• [28:59] - The difference with enterprise buyers
• [30:34] - Signals
• [38:48] - Making AI plays resilient
• [43:04] - Clay

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

• Blueprint

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You may have heard the phrase, "every company is a media company"—but what does this actually mean for B2B?

How do you go about building an audience, what content should you use, and how should you measure it?

Here to answer these questions is category-creating CMO and founder, Anthony Kennada. He helped pioneer the category of customer success as founding CMO at Gainsight, and today is helping B2B companies develop owned audiences as CEO of AudiencePlus.

Anthony is a great marketer who has thought deeply about how brands should develop relationships with audiences for the long term. This wide-ranging conversation explores many facets of how to put this into practice.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Anthony Kennada is the co-founder and CEO of AudiencePlus—building software, content, and community to help every company become a media company.

Prior to founding AudiencePlus, he served as the CMO of companies like Hopin, Front, and Gainsight. At this last company, he and his team are credited with creating the Customer Success category.

Anthony is also the author of Category Creation: How to Build a Brand that Customers, Employees, and Investors Will Love, which debuted as a number one new release on Amazon.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/akennada/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:43] - Evolving through growth stages at Gainsight
• [06:40] - Category creation
• [14:09] - Why should every company be a media company?
• [24:31] - Metrics for audience marketing
• [34:47] - Partnering with content creators
• [40:25] - Edutainment
• [44:29] - Golden Hour

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going.

UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.

You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. 

So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• Why Every Company is Becoming a Media Company | AudiencePlus

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