Explore every episode of the podcast Revenue on the Rocks

Ben and I are back for season 6! We start by celebrating Ben's return from paternity leave, both of our five-year Navattic anniversaries, and making it through the AI wave.

Then we revisit a take from season 3: should BDRs live under sales or marketing? A year ago we both said sales. Now Navattic's new BDR team reports to marketing. We cover:

• Why moving upmarket made BDRs the missing final touch for demand gen
• Why we hired two BDRs instead of one
• The AE buddy system that keeps BDRs close to sales

For our first episode back:

I drink orange wine 🍊

Ben drinks a local beer from Odd Side Ales 🍺

After six months and a run of conversations spanning Reddit, YouTube, website conversion, and onboarding, Mark Kilens and Natalie Marcotullio are hitting pause on GTM News Desk, at least in this format. In our final episode together, we look back at what actually stuck from a season of go-to-market experiments, why "there's no playbook" is the most honest advice they can give anyone joining a startup, and why over-polishing a campaign or a doc is a losing bet in 2026.

We also make their predictions for the next six to twelve months: Natalie argues AI agents becoming the primary buyer is overhyped for now, and Mark thinks the industry is closer to a bubble-bursting moment than most people are willing to admit. Plus, a look at what's to come: Natalie is bringing back her Revenue on the Rocks podcast and Mark is launching a new newsletter on people-first go-to-market.

Jump into the action:
(00:00) Reflecting on where the AI slop cycle stands now
(00:25) Catching up before the show
(02:16) Six months, and a look back at every episode
(03:57) The go-to-market map they've covered, guest by guest
(07:01) Why there's no playbook when you join a startup
(08:55) Prioritizing through experimentation instead of debate
(11:18) Natalie teases the return of Revenue on the Rocks
(12:42) Mark teases a new people-first go-to-market newsletter
(14:47) Prediction: why AI agents won't be buying software yet
(15:39) Prediction: the AI bubble-bursting moment
(18:23) Critical thinking atrophy and AI fatigue
(20:07) Mark's teaser for a Navattic product launch post

Subscribe to Mark’s Newsletter, People-First GTM: https://people-first-gtm.beehiiv.com/

Listen to Natalie’s Podcast, Revenue on the Rocks: https://www.navattic.com/revenue-on-the-rocks

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens. 

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

Pragmatico Head of Marketing Lindsay O'Brien shares her experiences on what changed for her two months into a fully AI-native company after spending the last year as one of the earliest marketers building Claude skills for brand guidelines. The conversation gets into what actually gets evaluated in an AI-native interview process, why mandating AI adoption through shame backfires, and the Claude skill Lindsay built that plans an entire marketing event end to end. 

Lindsay also makes the case for why a unique point of view has to come before any AI workflow, and why skipping that step is the real reason so much AI-assisted content reads as forgettable.

Jump into the action:
(00:00) Why project management eats as much time as the work itself
(00:32) Catching up before the show
(11:45) A full circle moment for Mark, Natalie, and Lindsay
(14:03) How to approach AI change management step by step
(16:46) The Claude Cowork token trap
(20:12) The critical thinking piece: don't outsource your point of view
(23:02) The four-step cycle for company-wide AI transformation
(27:24) The Claude skill that plans an entire marketing event
(33:33) How to pull context straight from the codebase
(36:06) Who owns the deck when anyone can make one
(43:20) Turning marketing into an assembly line
(45:26) Why a unique point of view matters more than more context
(48:07) Will AI ever feel as boring and as useful as Excel

Connect with Lindsay O'Brien: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsaykenders/

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens. 

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

Ross Simmonds, founder of Foundation and the person who was telling B2B brands to get on Reddit back in 2016, joins Mark and Natalie to discuss what that admission actually means for marketers. Ross walks through why he bet on Reddit and Quora years before anyone else cared, how a fantasy football blog in college turned into a content marketing company, and why he thinks YouTube is the next channel everyone is sleeping on.

The conversation also covers the difference between commodity and non-commodity content, why volume plays on programmatic SEO are a fast track to getting deindexed, and how to reverse-engineer what a community actually wants before you post to it.

Jump into action:
(00:00) Why AI is a blessing and a curse for marketers

(00:41) Catching up while moving

(03:43) Seth Godin asked Google's AI what happened to blogs

(11:47) Ross on calling the Reddit wave back in 2016

(17:52) The three times Google admitted to killing the open web

(19:55) Why 10 blue links are never coming back

(24:53) Commodity content versus non-commodity content

(28:48) Turning one report into dozens of micro assets

(29:47) The brand, product, and content marketing trifecta

(39:46) Why leadership teams are pressuring the wrong metrics

(44:24) Why AI visibility tools are still just directional

(49:29) The next underinvested channel is YouTube

(52:13) Ross's take on webinars

Connect with Ross Simmonds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosssimmonds/
Check out Foundation: https://foundationinc.co/

Read Blogs, Traffic, and Google by Seth’s Blog: https://seths.blog/2026/06/blogs-traffic-and-google/

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens. 

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

Bryn Jones, co-founder of Partnerstack, breaks down how partnerships evolved from channel deals into full ecosystem orchestration, and why the companies winning at it treat every partner like part of the team. He shares the two questions that decide which partner types fit your business, why alignment with your executive team matters more than headcount, and the exact way to go from zero partners to a program that scales.

Bryn also gets into the 80/20 rule of activated partners, why software attribution is getting harder instead of easier, and the rookie mistake that ends new partner managers' careers by day 50.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Bryn on why partners who feel like part of your team will drive revenue for you

(00:29) Mark and Natalie catch up from Maine and New York City

(04:00) The mom-and-pop SaaS debate and what it means for mid-market software

(10:30) Meet Bryn Jones, co-founder of PartnerStack

(14:25) Why "partner program" and "partner ecosystem" aren't the same thing

(21:20) The two factors that decide which partner types fit your business

(25:16) How many partners you actually need to start (it's not 50)

(29:34) Why software-based attribution is getting harder, not easier

(35:03) Why refer-a-friend programs are a source of learning, not revenue

(38:53) Using customers as a source of partner references

(40:12) Tactical tips for starting outbound partner recruitment

(41:49) The rookie mistake that gets new partner managers fired by day 50

Connect with Bryn Jones: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryn-jones/

Check out PartnerStack: https://partnerstack.com/

Read The Mom-and-Pop SaaS era has arrived by Elena Verna: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/the-mom-and-pop-saas-era-has-arrived

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens. 

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day. 

In this episode, Ramli John, founder of DelightPath and author of Eureka, pushes back on the ship-it-and-see mindset sweeping through B2B. He explains why reducing time-to-value too aggressively can wreck week-one retention, how friction is actually necessary for learning, and why the teams winning with AI right now are the ones going deep on one thing, not wide on twenty.

Ramli also shares a first look at his upcoming book, Delightful Intelligence, and why the principles behind great onboarding haven't changed just because there's a chat box on the screen.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Why AI acts like an eager intern who agrees with everything

(02:37) Pew Research: More US adults concerned about AI than excited 

(04:16) AI fatigue is real—news cycles, layoffs, and broken efficiency promises

(08:27) The shortcut mindset AI is creating inside teams

(12:24) What the best AI models look like 

(17:10) Meet Ramli John, founder of DelightPath

(19:59) Why great onboarding in the AI era still starts with core principles

(25:32) The EUREKA framework: a cross-functional approach to onboarding

(30:12) Why friction is not the enemy in user onboarding

(35:00) Chat interfaces vs. MCPs: What actually reduces onboarding friction

(40:44) The blank page problem and why "it can do anything" is terrible UX

(43:32) How many product updates can your users actually absorb?

(45:49) The right way to roll out a navigation change

(49:45) Why human conversations matter more than ever in a vibe-coded world

(52:16) Why Claude is beating OpenAI by playing the long game

Connect with Ramli John: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/

Check out DelightPath: 

https://delightpath.com/

Get Eureka: The Product Onboarding Playbook for High-Growth B2B Companies: https://www.damngravity.com/products/eureka-by-ramli-john 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: 

https://shareyourgenius.com/

Resources:

Key findings about how Americans view AI: 

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/03/12/key-findings-about-how-americans-view-artificial-intelligence/

The 2026 AI Index Report: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens. 

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day. 

In this episode, Roee Hartuv, founder of Willingness to Pay, uncovers the truth about pricing and packaging in today’s rapidly evolving tech landscape. Roee explains why the old “good, better, best” model may no longer cut it and how the Jobs-to-Be-Done framework offers a more customer-centric approach. He goes into how businesses can transition to more dynamic pricing models, including credit and usage-based strategies, to meet the growing demands of AI-powered solutions.

He discusses real-world examples from his work with SaaS and AI-driven companies, offering practical insights on how to keep margins healthy without sacrificing value or transparency. Roee gives us a look at how AI integration is reshaping the pricing landscape and why businesses need to rethink traditional models to avoid margin erosion.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Why pricing models are more than just numbers

(03:09) AI products need a new pricing strategy

(14:37) What Jobs to Be Done reveals about pricing and value

(15:22) The "good, better, best" model isn't enough anymore

(22:39) Should AI-driven businesses always adopt value-based pricing?

(23:33) How AI pricing examples are shaping future business models

(24:58) How AI is challenging traditional pricing models

(34:46) Pricing for enterprise and smaller customers without sacrificing simplicity

(37:27) The importance of transparency in pricing

(39:38) Why customer journeys are key to the right pricing structure

(43:46) Roee's tips on testing and refining your pricing models

Connect with Roee Hartuv: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roeehartuv/ 

Check out: https://www.willingnesstopay.com/ 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens. 

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day. 

In this episode, Mojo Founder Eric Holland and Messaging Whisperer Anna Furmanov reveal what's really broken about how B2B companies develop and distribute their messaging. They dig into why most customer research is pulled from the most biased data available and how to document your decision-making, not just your knowledge, so AI can actually replicate your judgment. They also provide answers to why chasing every new AI workflow is making most marketers worse, not faster. Eric and Anna challenge the idea that volume of insights equals quality of insights, arguing that a single finding that changes how your whole company goes to market is worth more than a hundred tagged Gong quotes.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Why B2B research should make you emotional about a lip balm

(00:35) What CMOs are actually talking about at conferences right now

(04:40) How shame and fear became the default AI adoption strategy

(08:41) The difference between AI-exhausted and AI-excited teams

(12:44) Four Tendencies and what it means for AI adoption

(16:31) Why B2B messaging is broken even at well-funded startups

(19:14) What separates Mojo from just pointing Claude at your Notion

(27:26) What good writing actually feels like and whether AI can get there

(32:17) The solar plexus test and how to know when your copy is working

(34:05) Why nuance and emotion are the real gap in AI writing

(39:27) Why most insight tools are just pattern-matching machines

(44:19) How to check if your researcher is actually any good

(47:30) The danger of everyone using the same tools to find the same answers

(50:01) What B2B marketing gets wrong that B2C figured out long ago

(53:21) Go deep on one thing for a quarter

(55:22) Why you should only build what you already know cold

Connect with Eric Holland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/ 

Connect with Anna Furmanov: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov/ 

Check out: https://mojopmm.com/ 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

In this episode, Camille Trent, Content Marketing Lead at Auror, breaks down what it takes to build stronger B2B content in an AI-shaped world. She shares how marketers can turn transcripts, customer conversations, and internal knowledge into better campaigns, why long-form content still works when it’s sharp and well edited, and how content, product marketing, and SEO are becoming more connected than ever. Camille also digs into the balance between creativity and brand fit, arguing that great content starts with knowing your audience and creating something worth their time.

As we discussed in our last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

In this episode, Keith Frankel, CEO of Totango, shares his bold approach to customer success and growth. He explains why traditional metrics fall short and reveals how businesses can shift from product-driven to customer-led growth. Keith delves into the concept of value-driven alignment and discusses how AI is shaping the future of customer success. The conversation also tackles a broader shift in SaaS: if AI makes product features easy to replicate, companies will need new ways to stand out. Keith believes the answer isn’t product; it’s culture and operating DNA.

As we discussed in the last episode, we are taking a pause from Revenue on the Rocks while Ben is on paternity leave. During this time, we'll be sharing episodes from another podcast I am co-hosting: GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

In this episode, Product Growth Expert Anastasia Kudrow shares her insights on understanding user behavior and applying psychological principles to enhance product-led growth. Anastasia reveals how to turn complex challenges into growth opportunities, offering strategies that help teams drive conversions and scale effectively.

Ben and I discuss why we're pausing the podcast a bit for his upcoming paternity leave and how he planned for his leave. We cover factoring paternity leave into revenue planning and hiring timelines, balancing team autonomy with structure during his leave, and initial nerves telling the team (despite everyone's full support).

We also share that while Revenue on the Rocks is on a break, I'll be the cohost of another podcast - GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

We’ll be streaming my episodes as co-host for GTM News Desk in the Revenue on the Rocks feed.

For the last episode for a bit:

I drink Merlot 🍷

Ben drinks a local IPA 🍺

Ben and I discuss how set 2026 revenue and pipeline goals at Navattic.

We talk about working backwards from end-of-year goals, looking at historical data, and getting early input from tenured reps before finalizing numbers. Plus, different forecasting methods and breaking large goals into quotas per employee to make them realistic and attainable.

I also talk about the quarterly marketing presentation I give to the sales team to show pipeline targets and get them excited about specific marketing initiatives. We also discuss how we approach our annual website refresh process.

Natalie drinks red wine 🍷

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

Before the New Year, we hosted a LinkedIn Live featuring nine of our Navattic advisors reflecting on 2025's marketing wins, flops, and what they're carrying into 2026.

We chatted about AI tool fatigue and underwhelming results from automated research platforms, clean data foundations before implementing AI, and figuring out what good marketing looks like before scaling.

We also chat our focuses for 2026, like pipeline acceleration instead of just top-of-funnel acquisition tactics, customer marketing, and the shift from website traffic to built trust to using SEO/GEO for buyer enablement.

Plus a lot about in-person customer events and programming.

Ben and I discuss our 2026 predictions for B2B SaaS, but we let ChatGPT generate the first half of the list and gave our takes on its predictions.

We cover whether usage-based pricing will actually replace subscriptions, if AI will make product differentiation impossible, the rise of micro tech stacks, and the pros and cons of being able to ship faster than ever with AI.

Plus, we debate if 2026 will bring AI pushback, acqui-hires over product acquisitions, and whether go-to-market teams will become the main differentiator when everyone can ship features quickly.

I drink tea 🍵

Ben drinks water 💧

Ben and I discuss our experience launching a new product line at Navattic and going after a new persona as part of the launch. We share how we tried to navigate making a big product bet while still not losing focus on our existing business and customers.

We chat about how the team managed morale during uncertain times, leadership's role of standing firm on strategic decisions, and being honest about resource needs when expanding to new markets.

I drink tea 🍵

Ben drinks coffee ☕

We're joined by guest Niall Sullivan to discuss why MQLs (at least the traditional way of defining MQLs) suck and how to shift to more demand gen and buyer-friendly marketing practices. We chat about:

• Moving away from gating content and focusing on educating buyers

• Measuring marketing's impact through pipeline and revenue metrics instead of MQLs

• Showing more product details and UI to help buyers understand the value

• Creating content that serves prospects, not just internal team needs

• Setting proper expectations when making big marketing strategy shifts

Niall drinks a traditional British ale 🍺

Ben drinks an All Day IPA 🍻

I drink tea 🫖

I do an "ask me anything" style interview to ask Ben questions about his career and journey at Navattic.

We reflect on hosting this podcast, changing from an IC to a manager, and how our approach to sales and marketing has changed over the past few years.

And share our favorite drinks from the season.

I drink rosé 🍷

Ben drinks Miller Lite 🍺

Our advisor and product marketing expert, Yi Lin, interviews Ben to explore the relationship between product marketing and sales.

She asks about sales reps' day-to-day, what makes top performers stand out, and how product marketers can support sales beyond decks. We also talk about why product marketers struggle more with sales (apparently more than product teams), collateral for sales reps, and how product marketers can build relationships with high-performing reps.

Yi Lin and I drink water

Ben drinks Coors Banquet 🍺

Ben does an "ask me anything" style interview to ask me questions he's always wanted to know about marketing. We talk about what makes each marketing role hard, debate whether sales or marketing should own outbound, and share our thoughts on personal LinkedIn branding for founders and sales reps.

Ben and I were being uncreative and both just drank water

Ben and I discuss our recent sales kickoff (SKO) in Dallas and Natalie's transition to a product marketing role at Navattic. We cover why you should bring marketing leadership to SKOs. My presentation about my role leading product marketing role at the SKO and why the company decided to make this transition at this stage of growth. Plus Ben's experience planning and executing his first full SKO, why SKOs are so important for sales teams, and how to manage energy levels at company events.

I drink a botanical tea-based liquor 🍵

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

Ben Pearson and I chat about how we built a sales process focused on buyer experience at Navattic. I interview Ben on how he developed his sales philosophy when he joined the company and the balance between creating a winning culture and doing what is best for prospects.

We also go into why we don't use traditional sales methodologies, how we hire for autonomy and high standards, and why Ben is obsessed with discovery.

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

I drink rosé 🍷

Ben Pearson and I kick off 2025 by chatting about our predictions and observations for B2B buying, marketing, and sales this year.

We discuss topics like LinkedIn's evolution, the future of PLG motions (expanding beyond just free trials), how marketing may change with the rise of specialized freelancers, customers getting involved earlier in the buyer journey, and if competitors will ever join together to help educate the market.

Ben drinks an On The Rocks premixed cocktail (Old Fashioned) 🥃

I drink tea 🫖

Ben and I reflect on our first customer event in New York City (if you didn't listen to our last episode we talked about planning the event in that one). We discuss what made it different from typical B2B conferences like an intimate venue, not too packed agenda, and customer-only attendees.

We share the event's impact, like positive feedback from attendees and how that helped inform our 2025 events strategy.

I drink honey Jack whiskey on the rocks 🥃

Ben drinks Coors Banquet beer 🍺

Ben and I discuss planning and hosting our upcoming first-ever customer event for Navattic in New York City. We chat about how we got early customer feedback to help set the event agenda and how we made it different than most user conferences.

I talk about practicing throwing smaller events leading up to it and lessons learned during previous events.

And Ben asks how marketers show ROI for customer events like this.

I drink tea 🍵

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

Ben Pearson and I discuss our experience hiring at startups and our stories of how we got hired at Navattic.

We cover why you want to love the product/problem at a startup, approaching startups proactively, and how to show passion and adaptability in the hiring process.

We also get into the differences between hiring for sales and marketing roles. And try to offer advice for both job seekers and hiring managers.

I drink orange wine 🍊🍷

Ben drinks Guinness 🍺

One month after our freemium launch, Ben Pearson and I deep dive into the highs and lows of the launch.

We discuss everything from celebrating the small wins, challenges when managing a team transitioning to PLG, selling experimentation, and adapting to a new unknown GTM motion.

Plus how we both felt emotionally pre and post-launch week and how we handled the excitement and stress.

I drink tea 🫖 & Ben drinks water 💧

In our season three premiere we announce that we launched a Product-Led Growth (PLG) motion at Navattic.

We discuss our initial reservations, what we've learned, and the freakouts we both had while introducing a freemium plan. We also talk about how to align the sales team and leadership to adapt to selling to PQLs (product-qualified leads).

Plus why we adopted PLG (even though we had a successful sales motion), potential long-term growth from PLG, and anxiety during the adjustment period.

I drink Catch & Release wine 🍷 & Ben drinks Coors Light 🍻

In this bonus episode of the Revenue on the Rocks - we collaborated with the We're Not Marketers team to discuss the disconnect between sales and product marketers.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why salespeople think they understand the customer better

2) How win-loss research can fill in gaps from loss reasons

3) Marketing and sales not understanding each other's metrics or daily pressures

4) How founders or VCs can make it difficult to align on one ICP

5) Why marketers should shadow sales calls to gain firsthand experience

6) Ways to build a rapport with sales as a marketer

Eric drinks a mezcal on the rocks 🥃

Zach drinks a Coors Light 🍺

Gab drinks a homemade gin tonic with maple syrup 🍸

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍺

I drink canned wine 🍷

In the last episode of Season 2 - we discuss the relationship between go-to-market and product with our co-founder and Head of Product at Navattic, Randy Frank.

Specifically, we cover:

1) How to identify when a product role is needed

2) Ways to align on a product roadmap and not get distracted

3) Why you need to filter customer feedback to prioritize valuable features

4) Balancing innovative features and competitive offerings

5) Ways to communicate product updates to go-to-market teams

6) How to manage expectations for product launch timelines and scope

Randy drinks a local DC lager 🍻

I drink a negroni 🥃

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

In Episode 14 of Season 2 - after throwing our first-ever CMO dinner we share the behind-the-scenes of what goes into planning a B2B dinner. And we bring on our co-sponsor and events expert Regina Magaril from Mutiny to rehash learnings from the events.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Event planning timeline and how we pull in other partners

2) How to assign clear owners to event tasks

3) What are our biggest fears around events

4) Should you invite sales team members to your events

5) How to fix on-day event problems like not enough attendees

6) Ways to get inspiration from events outside B2B

Regina drinks Catch and Release Chardonnay 🥂

I drink Catch and Release Pinot Noir 🍷

Ben drinks an IPA 🍻

In Episode 13 of Season 2 - Ben and I talk about the stress of hitting quota at the end of the quarter for sales teams (fresh off of end of quarter at Navattic).

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why sales is laser-focused on hitting quota

2) Ben's experience with quota at other companies

3) How marketing can not bother sales near the end of the quarter

4) Ways to involve the entire sales team in setting quotas

5) How hitting quota impacts the entire company

6) Dissecting wins to help sales reps play to strengths and talents

Ben drinks a whiskey 🥃

I drink a canned cocktail 🍸

In Episode 12 of Season 2 - Ben and I go over our "failure lists" from being first-time startup leaders. We reflect on failures and lessons learned as startup executives and talk about the general benefits of keeping track of your failures.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Struggling to balance IC work and managing others

2) Realizing a lack of documentation when onboarding new hires

3) Ways to improve communication between GTM and product on feature requests

4) Why normal marketers are different from event marketers

5) Trusting your founders and their direction for company growth

6) How Ben and I make decisions now based on learning from these failures

Ben drinks a coffee with whiskey ☕️

I drink a Chianti 🍷

In Episode 11 of Season 2 - Ben and I reflect on our first official sales kickoff and the B2BMX conference. Plus we discuss the benefit of focusing in-person company events on just getting to know each other.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why Ben decided to structure the SKO the way he did

2) Connecting with employees to understand what motivates them

3) How trust at the leadership level plays into running these types of events

4) Fear and decision fatigue from marketers apparent at B2BMX

5) Navigating awkward conference convos

Ben drinks water 💧

I drink a Pinot noir 🍷

In Episode 10 of Season 2 - a month into 2024 Ben and I give our take on how the software buying market compares to 2023. 

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why everyone was so excited about 2024 vs 2023

2) Continued budget concerns for 2024

3) How more stakeholders/ departments are involved in the buying process

4) A shift away from PLG to more wholistic self-serve buying

5) Why the market has been so competitive and ways to stand out

6) A divide in marketing strategies for 2024

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink a Chianti 🍷

In Episode 9 of Season 2 - Ben and I discuss our process for creating our new State of the Interactive Demo Report 2024.

Specifically, we cover:

1) How we sourced questions from our sales team for the report

2) Why we use first-party product data vs survey data

3) Ways we promoted the report and got early feedback

4) How we designed the report to make it more sharable

5) What we changed about this report vs last year's report

6) Fun games to help the sales team learn the data

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink a Cucumber Mint Cocktail 🥒

If you want to see the report: https://www.navattic.com/report/state-of-the-interactive-product-demo-2024

In Episode 8 of Season 2 - Ben and I talk with Molly Bruckman from Mutiny about their widely successful Surv-ai-vor campaign and how they got sales bought into a unique, time-intensive, and creative campaign.

Specifically, we cover:

1) The origin story behind the Surv-ai-vor campign

2) How sponsors were brought in and decision process for big prizes

3) Our experience as a sponsor and why we decided to sponsor

4) Results from the campaign and the reactions from the sales team

5) How Mutiny's amazing brand awareness helped fuel the campaign

6) Takeaways from the campaign around virality

Molly drinks a rosemary gin and tonic 🍸

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍺

I drink WeWork sponsored tea 🫖 

In this bonus episode, Ben and I talk about how to be a better software buyer. We usually talk about how to be better software sellers, but in this mini episode, we poke fun at ways that buyers could make the sales process a little smoother.

Hope you enjoy and happy holidays ☃️

In Episode 6 of Season 2 - Natalie and Ben talk with Arthur Castillo (who has worked in both sales and marketing roles) to discuss the differences between the two departments.

Specifically, they cover:

1) Arthur's journey from sales to marketing and back to sales

2) How B2B selling has changed in the past few years

3) The perspective shift from switching from one role to the next

4) How marketing and sales organize their schedule and celebrate wins

5) What stereotypes hold up for each role

6) Which role is harder: sales or marketing

Arthur drinks an "Arthur Old Fashioned" 🥃

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍺

Natalie drinks a pre-made Cosmo 🍸

In Episode 5 of Season 2 - Natalie and Ben dive into the nitty gritty of sales data, attribution, and intent with Kevin White to figure out what is the most helpful data for sales teams and how to best share that data.

Specifically, they cover:

1) How to group data into digestible cohorts for sales teams

2) What types of data reps look at right before a sales call

3) Ways to use tech stack enrichment signals during a live call

4) Issues with generic intent data lacking identity and context

5) Taking an account-based approach and working from high to low intent 

6) Shifting away from mass outreach to more precise messaging

7) Getting hands-on experience to get comfortable with data

Kevin drinks a ginger sparkling water 🫧

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

Natalie drinks a Chianti 🍷

In Episode 4 of Season 2 - Ben, our guest Dee Acosta, and I discuss what motivates salespeople and marketers.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why salespeople are often motivated by things like winning, money, and fear of failure

2) Finding out in the interview process what a sales rep is motivated by

3) Why marketers are often motivated by things like creativity, recognition, and a seat at the table

4) Ways to understand what motivates your team in a remote setting

5) How to adapt your motivation strategies depending on the person or situation

6) Using empathy and vulnerability to better connect with your team

Dee drinks a Coke Zero 🥤

Ben drinks a Hefeweizen beer 🍻

Natalie drinks a Cucumber Mojito 🥒

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 3 of Season 2 - Ben and I discuss the growing pains of startups as they transition from scrappy upstarts to more established companies.

Specifically, we cover:

1) The challenges of scaling processes and people as a company evolves

2) How founders and early employees must adapt as their roles change

3) Striking a balance between structure and innovation

4) Getting candid feedback from your team

5) Setting realistic goals when you have increased expectations

6) Keeping employees happy and engaged as the company grows

7) Maintaining the special sauce that fueled early traction

Ben drinks a Miller Lite 🍺

I drink a High Noon 🫧

Hope you enjoy! - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 2 of Season 2 - Ben interviews me on the realities of being a solo marketer.

Specifically, we cover:

1) My background and how I fell in love with marketing

2) Why I have chosen to be a solo marketer so far and the pros and cons

3) How I prioritize and manage requests with limited resources

4) My process to decide what tools or freelancers I need

5) Wins from my career including our approach to branding

6) Key learnings I have for other solo marketers starting out

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink tea out of a "Coffee is for Closers" mug ☕

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 1 of Season 2 - Ben and I debate what factors actually sway prospects in a deal cycle.

Specifically, we cover:

1) What drives B2B buyers' decisions

2) How much does positioning and branding affect buyer behavior

3) Three reasons why prospects choose one company over another

4) Pricing strategies and adjustments in a down economy

5) Why sales reps may be fearful of a brand overhaul

6) How to address the elephant in the room with leadership to fix a broken sales cycle

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink a Cucumber Vodka Mojito 🥒

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 12 we discuss what it was like to create a podcast and what we learned about sales and marketing departments over the season. 

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why we're taking a little break from the podcast for the summer

2) How marketers are involved in a lot more and are much more analytical than they get credit for

3) Ways to use sales intuition to your marketing advantage

4) Why startups may want to hire a salesperson before a marketer

5) How we decided on our ICP in the early days of Navattic

6) Why we ended up making this podcast a year into working at Navattic together

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃

I drink Josh red wine 🍷

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 11 we speak with Brittany Brown Head of Enterprise Marketing at Lokalise.

We talk all about how to ensure any new campaign or initiative is revenue driven and how to best collaborate on these initiatives with sales.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why sales teams perceive marketing as not revenue driven

2) Balancing brand-building marketing with revenue-driven marketing

3) How to align on one single ICP

4) Strategies to get buy-in for new campaigns or tools

5) When is the best time to share results with sales

6) How to switch from an MQL to accounts based mindset

Brittany drinks a Sauvignon Blanc 🥂

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃 

I drink Josh Cabernet Sauvignon 🍷

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 10 we speak with Nick Bennett founder of ClubPF, podcast host of the Anonymous marketer, and B2B creator.

We talk all about how to adopt a people-first approach to your sales and marketing strategy and how to create a sales process prospects actually enjoy.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why B2B sales is usually so frustrating for prospects

2) How only listening to VCs and sales leaders at other companies can hurt your sales process

3) Ways to avoid a founder's "shinny object syndrome" through data and revenue-driven results

4) Strategies to get leadership on board with a people-first approach and how to overcome sales fears around it

5) Different compensation ideas for a people-first strategy

6) The future of the creator-economy and how it ties into a people-first approach

Nick drinks a Dunkin cold brew 🧊☕️

Ben drinks a Starbucks cold brew 🧊☕️

I drink tea 🫖

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 9 we speak with Peter Kirk who runs RevOps at MadKudu and has built operations functions at multiple product-led and sales-led companies, including Lucid and BentoBox.

We talk all about data, attribution, and the role of Revops in helping drive alignment - instead of damaging it.

Specifically, we cover:

1) How Revops can build trust with sales when they first join an org

2) Sales confusion around the role of Revops

3) Why sales is often less reliant on sales data or reports

4) Who should have access to dashboards and the best cadence to share data with sales

5) Best channels to get the most important insights to sales without distracting them

6) How attribution and compensation can harm the sales and marketing relationship

Peter drinks a spaghett 🍺

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃 (Round 3)

I drink a mezcal margarita 🍹

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 8 we speak with Jason Oakley - founder of productive PMM and founding product marketing lead at amazing SaaS companies like Klue, Chili Piper, and Uberflip.

We talk all about product launches - how to make them successful and pitfalls to avoid.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Which sales reps are best to work with for product launches and enablement

2) Sales frustrations around lack of visibility into product launches and roadmaps

3) Whether or not you should incentivize or spiff product launches

4) Understanding the different pressures each team faces during product launches

5) Ways to get sales involved earlier through beta testing or engineering demos

6) How to have more empathy for team members during launches

Jason drinks Any Day IPA from local brewery Side Launch 🍺

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃 (again)

I drink a Mojito 🍋

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)