Kick and Phil relive a story 25 years in the making. Violence, regret, deja vu and discovering how our reactions shape us.
To join us at Coequal's Patreon Page:
https://www.patreon.com/coequalTo check out the website for Big hArt:
https://www.bighart.org/To listen to Agents for Change:
https://podfollow.com/agents-for-changeCitations:
Sapolsky, R. M. (2023). Determined: a science of life without free will. Penguin Press.
Giannakopoulos, B (2025)
Free Will Didn’t Die with Libet: Rethinking Agency as Structure, Not SparkEinam, H., Mikulincer, M., & Shachar, R. (2024).
Shedding a light on the teller: on storytelling, meaning in life, and personal goals. The Journal of Positive Psychology, 1–15. https://doi.org/10.1080/17439760.2024.2431684
Real Made Up Stories has been assisted by the Australian Government through Creative Australia, its principal arts investment and advisory body."
Music Credits
"Atmospheric Acoustic Slide Guitar" by Hypertunes, "desert-drone-ominous-ambient" by Arcadian Sounds", "Texas Plains" by Arcadian Sounds, "Brer Krille", "Ballast", "Stipple", " An Oldly Formal Dance", "Golden Grass", "Collecting Samples", "Convex Marsa", "Strange Dog Walk", "Mineshaft" and "Pintle" by Blue Dot Sessions "Tense Drums" by Philip Okerstrom and Damian Mason, "Vengeful" by Blue Dot Sessions, "New PJ Harvey" , "Muffled GRT" by Philip Okerstrom and Damian Mason, "Track 1 Hurt", "Track 4 Hurt", "End Music Hurt" by Philip Okerstrom, Damian Mason and Symon Ayton, "Deranged" by Matthew Creid, "Ambient Rhythmic" by Damian Mason, "Sole Companion" by Blue Dot Sessions, "Minimalist Touch" by Ali Goldstein, "Intro" and "Heartless" by Philip Okerstrom, "Landscape" by Matthew Creid, "Faster Does It", "Round Drums", "Minimal Dystopian Pulse", "Thinking Music" by Kevin McLeod, "Dark Seas", "Ancient Wind Through The Ruins", "Cumuliform" by Raw Materials,
Subject Matter Key Words: Violence aganist women, alcohol abuse, masculinity, Apprehended Violence Order, guns, suicidal thoughts, self harm.
Note: This episode contains a lot of swear words.
Detailed Episode Description:
Recap Kick and Phil briefly recap Part 1: The listener is reminded of the events leading up to the key moments that Part 2 will revisit.
Kick on Finding Pain, Storytelling, and TV Series Kick reflects on: Not having the “pain” often associated with great acting, and how that shaped his professional perspective. His desire to be a storyteller and what that means. A story about his mother being taken to emergency, showing his ability to make people laugh in difficult moments. How this humour and insight translate into his work writing and directing CAUGHT*, establishing his skills in crafting narrative tension and character development.
Tom Story Flashback (Childhood Trauma) Young Tommy witnesses his father holding a door on his mother’s thumb, causing severe pain. Tommy experiences intense fear and guilt, sits with his mother while she sobs, and fiddles with the bullet necklace he wears. He whispers “I’m sorry,” linking his present guilt to his perceived role in the accident.
Phil on Neuroscience, Kick’s Police Story, and Career, Fate, and Chance Phil discusses Sapolsky’s research on free will, showing how unconscious brain processes precede conscious decisions. Kick tells a story about a youth yelling at police, showing how prior experience shapes instinctive reactions differently. Kick recounts career-defining chance encounters, including meeting Sean Penn through a short film, emphasizing how small actions and luck shape a trajectory.
Teen Tom – Contemplating Suicide, Gunshot Dream, Déjà Vu Tom holds a gun to his face, clutching the bullet necklace. A gun shot fire and Tom jolts awake. He is back at the intersection he found himself at on the previous day. Was that all a dream? But as the moments unfold the things he perhaps experienced in the dream appear to be happening again. He starts to think he should try and do something different to what he did in the dream.
Lachlan picks Tom up in a car, and the conversation unfolds exactly as his dream had. But Tom chooses to answer a key question about his girlfriend Danielle in a different way.
Phil on Storytelling Research, Kick on Young People Project, CAUGHT Iguana Clip* Phil shares research on how storytellers gain purpose by structuring narratives. Kick reflects on the youth projects, emphasizing that participants could actively “change the story” of their lives. Excerpt from CAUGHT*: Rebel leader discusses iguanas failing to warn each other of danger because they don’t tell stories.
Pub Scene – Tom Meets Callum Tom relives the pub encounter from Part 1 with Callum. He now has a conscious opportunity to respond differently to Callum’s questions about relationships, violence, and life choices.
Kick on Reacting Differently, Masculinity, and Generational Change Kick comments on the broader idea that people can react differently to repeated opportunities. He ties this to evolving masculinity and the potential for intergenerational learning: owning mistakes prevents the next generation from repeating them. Phil and Kick reinforce the role of storytelling in preserving lessons and passing them forward.
Father-Son Reconciliation Tom returns home, calls for his father, and relives the same family interaction from Part 1. Differences emerge: Tom confesses past violence openly; his father responds with sadness but calm. His father gives him the bullet necklace, a symbol of intergenerational responsibility.
Postscript – Phil on Kick Phil reflects on casting Kick decades ago, noting his kindness, emotional openness, and bravery. He praises Kick’s ability to bring lightness to difficult stories, helping audiences engage without being overwhelmed by trauma.
