The Real AI Opportunity in Real Estate w/Brandon Doyle

For a tech-savvy agent, YouTuber and consultant to tech companies, you’d think Brandon would be “all in” on creating content with AI. Quite the opposite.

“AI is great for improving your workflow and saving some time, but if you’re using [AI] for the actual creation, you’re doing it wrong. You’re just creating garbage and noise and in the long run, it’s going to hurt you more than it helps.”

There’s some excitement around AI voice agents for calling leads. But some are saying they’d probably only use it for dead leads.

So if the big opportunity in AI isn’t in revolutionizing how we market and sell, what IS the big opportunity?

Let’s get to the…

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Solve Boring Problems

I think the biggest problem in real estate is actually duplication of entry and…adoption... A lot of times with [tech] tools, people get frustrated because they…go in and do something and they’re just checking a box of something they already did.” - Brandon Doyle

Data entry. That’s a really boring problem. But if AI can solve it, it makes adoption easier and opens the door for new tools to emerge. And making adoption easier is critical because…

Agent Churn Can Break Your Entire Business Model.

“They [tech companies] don’t factor their churn rate…I’ve seen companies where the client acquisition cost is higher than the lifetime value of the client. And they don’t even understand what their lifetime value is because…it’s two different buckets for them. They’ve got marketing, sales and then client success all operating separately.”

Think this only applies to tech companies?

I’ve seen this same issue with coaching and memberships. When all the focus is on getting new agents in, it’s easy to forget about churn.

Whatever estimates you have of lifetime value per agent, it’s probably good to cut them in half. Maybe more.

This is why so many tech companies, and even some coaches, prefer to sell to big brands and indie brokers.

“I mean, selling [tech tools] direct to agent is just a terrible, terrible business model. They expect the world and they don’t want to pay you for it. And they’re just going to quit. The average agent won’t even go 90 days.”

So how do we deal with churn?

Price Out the Problem Agents.

“Price accordingly. Just price some of these people out of the market through exclusivity. Curaytor, when they first came on the scene, was a good example. It was like, ‘Well, we’re so exclusive, we only work with whatever number of people,’ and then [agents] kind of self- select.”

In other words, start by selling to agents who are ambitious, advanced and affluent.

Establish your market there, build something awesome, get profitable. Then you can move downmarket and offer a limited or mass-market version.

The side benefit is that working with the ambitious and already successful raises your game. You end up creating a better solution to the problem to meet their high expectations.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing…especially when it comes to agent churn in areas like coaching or memberships.

Ask This:

What are the early WINS you can get agents after they take your offer?

What can you systematize?

What can you make easier and seamless?

The better answers you have to those questions, the less churn you’ll have in your offers.

Quick Links & Resources

Brandon’s website

Brandon’s books

Brandon’s YouTube channel - for smart home tech and home tours

Connect with Brandon on Facebook and Instagram

Brandon was up for a free-range conversation, and we definitely had that! So make sure to listen to the full conversation, connect with Brandon on social, and keep him mind for speaking gigs or consulting for tech companies.

Talk soon,

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS When you’re ready, here’s one way we can help…

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, we’ve been the content team behind many of your fellow real estate coaches, speakers and authors.

We turn conversations into newsletters, videos and podcasts, all with zero hassle. With our system, that content creates real authority, influence and impact for our clients.

Do what other leaders won’t do. That’s where the big opportunities live.

That’s what I took away from the chat with Marki. Well, that and my cheeks hurt from smiling and laughing.

You might know Marki from…

* her years of pro speaking on AI and social selling

* her podcast and membership

* Hosting the NAR Drive podcast

If so, you also know she’s going to be 100% herself, in any situation.

So she didn’t hold back on where the industry is missing it, and how that creates niche opportunities to build a loyal audience of agents.

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Most leaders are missing agents’ REAL problems.

“You need to be where they are…And you have to talk about the pain. Probably where people are missing the mark is they’re storytelling and the true pain is off. I understand our pain. I’ve lived this pain…” - Marki Lemons Ryhal

From menopause and dental work to the 2x strength lenses in her glasses, Marki is not shy about sharing. Which creates a completely different level of connection and loyalty with her audience.

“We are an industry of people who lack medical insurance, but we’re also an industry….of over 60% women with the #1 age bracket being 50-55 years of age…You want to know why the women love me? Because I’m talking ‘all day’ problems.” -

When big-name leaders and brands don’t speak to the everyday problems agents face, it creates a huge opportunity for independent coaches, authors and speakers. If you can be radically authentic without oversight, push that advantage to the limit.

Most leaders are ignoring differences in abilities and learning styles.

“We’re not addressing in real estate, What percentage [of agents] are neurodivergent learners? ADHD, dyslexia, different learning styles? They might have been labeled as being difficult or people don’t want to work with them because how they learn is totally different.”

It makes sense that real estate might be over-represented with neurodivergent learners, ADHD and dyslexia, compared to the general workforce. Real estate is flexible and anyone can learn at their own pace. There’s no boss looking over our shoulder.

But as of now, very few leaders are speaking to these agents directly, or repurposing content for their needs. Another niche opportunity waiting for the right leader to step in and serve.

Leaders aren’t teaching agents how to “Pull Back the Bow”

That’s the grind work of building new skills, new systems or learning new tools. (credit my friend Hank Avink for that term).

Marki faced it this past fall, grinding through the scholarship application process for her college-bound son. She even built a whole AI system to get through it faster and submit more applications. The result? Over $1 MILLION in merit-based scholarships.

Ok, so that’s the grind…the pulling back the bow. But who wants to hear about that?

The opportunity is in being honest about the grind. Honesty gets you loyalty.

What do agents need to DO to really benefit from your offer?

Where do they need to “pull back the bow?”

Because if you’re not honest about that, even when agents buy, most of them won’t implement. So they get no benefit, and you get no testimonials, case studies, word of mouth or loyalty.

So how do you sell agents on the grind of new tools, skills and systems?

Help them see the backend payoff…clearly enough…that they’ll sacrifice short-term revenue to get it.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Ask This:

What pain are you talking about….that other leaders or brands won’t touch? Not business pain...life pain.

Quick Links & Resources

Marki’s website

Marki’s podcast

Marki’s Speaker Page - a killer page from a veteran speaker, worth checking out if you want more speaking gigs.

Marki’s Facebook

I love talking to Marki, she’s been in my life as a client and friend for many years now, and she never fails to bring incredible energy wherever she goes.

Watch out for her on the speaking circuit, and send her a referral to any local or state association who’s looking for a speaker!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS If you’re winning the game in business and life, and now you want to make an IMPACT on agents, check out our agency, MicroFamous.

We’re the content strategy and production team behind many of your fellow real estate leaders, coaches, speakers and authors. And if you’re driven to make an impact, we want to help.

Lars had a massive ad budget, a “closer” team, all the tech tools to max out ROAS.Still couldn’t get the conversion numbers he wanted.

So he started taking sales calls with agents again.Over 150 this year.

And what is he hearing from agents? Exhaustion.Not because agents are doing the fundamentals and it’s not working.

They don’t even want to hear that fundamentals are the answer.

So I asked Lars if there’s a sweet spot between what agents want to hear…and what they need to hear from industry leaders?

Lars’ hilarious response was, “Oh my Lord…Oh my Lord…”

There’s a lot to share from this conversation. Buckle up accordingly.

Non-Obvious Insights from the Conversation:

2X return on ad spend can be profitable….and still be unsustainable.

“There’s no easy way to pivot that model…when you’re spending all this money, it’s creating leads, my setters are setting appointments... Within 48, maybe even 24 hours [of shutting off ads], it’s crickets. So it’s not even really a business.

I went HARD into the ads, but then you’re all in the ads…We were at $3200 spend for a $10k offer with $6500 cash collected. So only a 2X return on initial spend... But then you turn it off, and there’s nothing going on.”

And when he showed up to the sales calls for the high ticket offer, he found that agents couldn’t afford it.

So he partnered with a company that offers financing.

HALF the clients used financing on the $10k offer.

What’s driving this shift?

The number of solid, producing agents may have dropped by HALF from 2023-2024.

“You'll ask them, How's business? And they'll just go to those years [2023 and earlier] ‘Well, I went from 25 to 12.’ And how many homes have you closed this year? It's like one or two. And [it was] four months into the year…

Last year, 1% of agents sold 25 homes or more, but two years before that it was 2%.”

In other words, agents got away with a lack of fundamentals in 2023.Lost momentum in 2024.Hit a wall in 2025.

But what’s driving the exhaustion and lack of motivation Lars is hearing from agents?

Agents have been burned by 100 “easy button” offers.

“We’re just in a trust recession. What someone needs to hear, and what’s going to motivate them to want to follow you or [buy], are two totally different things. And I’m not going to be the guy to master [saying] what they want to hear.

I'm not going to pick on the person or even say their name, but there's someone who's a very popular YouTuber in the real estate space that hasn't sold 50 homes in their entire career. I watch their stuff and it's very good, but to me that's inauthentic.”

But what about going down the Alex Hormozi path… engineering the living $#*% out of all your content?

“I went down that path….and all of a sudden I have two editors, one for short form, one for long form. I did a $24k, 90 day program on how to learn short form. And what am I doing? I blew all that up.

Some of my better content is created when I’m in a natural conversation with someone… So I’m recording here on my cell phone and then [we] cut that into stuff. My focus is on what I’m saying when I’m not thinking about what I’m saying.”

Can you go down the Alex Hormozi path?

Absolutely. And if it’s authentic to you, it may work, BUT…

It takes a massive amount of energy to be someone you’re not. Most will start with excitement, then eventually burn out.And neglect the fundamentals that would have worked along the way.

Lars is pivoting hard…back to the fundamentals.

The organic approach that originally built the business. In his case that’s his Facebook Group and email list.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. There’s SO much I couldn’t cover in this newsletter!

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

Are you hearing something different from agents?Are energy levels and motivation picking up coming into the fall?

Ask This:

Lars is focusing on this question, “How big can I build this business with the bare minimum?”

Quick Links & Resources

GrowthCoachLars.com

A huge thank you to Lars for being brutally open and transparent!

Hopefully it helps other leaders make better decisions about their marketing.

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous

Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service

.

Reminder: The content is not for agents, this is a mastermind-style newsletter for real estate leaders, insiders and content creators. A place where we can openly discuss the challenges of reaching and engaging agents, building brands and dominating niches. You won’t find this content all over social media, so if it’s valuable, forward it to a friend.

This week is a little detour into the world of real estate coaching and AI.

But the insights apply to anyone scaling a business around expertise

(which is many of my friends and clients).

In coaching, there’s a huge bottleneck to scaling.

You can’t clone yourself as a coach.

Yes, you can hire staff coaches.

But the good ones are unicorns because they…

* come up from the ranks of clients

* spend years steeped in your beliefs and opinions

* speak your language naturally

You can’t scale with unicorns.

So Verl made a big bet.

He acquired Coach Simple, a coaching business management platform.

They’re incorporating AI from the inside out, starting with how they run their sales calls, manage their 75 coaches and ramp up new coaches.

Here are Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation…

In-house AI Beats ChatGPT (even Custom GPTs)

Verl and the newly acquired team built an in-house ‘coach AI’ trained on their massive library of content. Their AI pulls only from resources in that library, returning better results including links to specific resources.

"I want a shorter path to develop my coaches to be better, right?... And so we took all of our coaches training for 10 years and we put it into “coach AI”... and so it allows us to have a much faster access to content and information that we don’t want ChatGPT infusing its opinion on. I want it to be pure proven workman principles and content."

AI Creates Better Profit Margins in Multiple Ways

Ramping up newer coaches used to take 2+ years. Not anymore.

"It’s been game-changing. Our [newer] coaches are coaching at a level of a master coach that’s been with us for eight or nine years because they have access to content and ideas and thoughts that you could only get through experience in the past. Now, we’re getting it through really great prompts."

They also use their in-house AI it to increase retention:

"So now when a client says, ‘Oh, I think I might want to get out of my contract’... you type that in… it [AI] answers in how we train to it, here’s how you figure out what the real issue is and solve it…the Workman Way”

Faster ramp up time for staff coaches + higher average client value = better profit margins.

That could have been ripped straight from Jay Abraham or Dan Kennedy’s playbooks. Love it!

AI Can Help Replicate Your Best Salespeople

"We use AI on our sales calls. We’ll practice something and the sales guys would be setting appointments or doing coaching consultations. The AI listens to it. And if we’re practicing a certain thing and the sales person [doesn’t] do it..we talk about it…at the 10 o’clock huddle…So we’re using AI to monitor what we’re saying and how we’re saying it and then improving our conversion ratios hourly.”

Imagine taking the tactics of your best salesperson, training ALL your salespeople to use those tactics, and monitoring them for improvement in real time.

AI is taking a process that used to be very messy, time consuming and riddled with human biases, and making it cleaner, faster and data driven.

Verl is also doubling down on his AI bet. He’s opening his in-house AI building system to other big experts. This might grow into a separate, sellable venture.

Alan Weiss, the famed consulting expert, is working with Verl’s team to create an in-house AI trained on decades of Weiss’s best-selling books, articles and audio/video content. “Alan Intelligence" is up and working and opens up un-GPT’d brilliance to his subscribers.

Is all this high risk? Considering Verl went from running a profitable coaching business to acquiring a company for a large chunk of change…essentially becoming a tech founder…I’d call that a high risk bet.

But it’s definitely high-reward.

If profit margins get bigger, and that allows Workman to outspend the competition for coaching leads, they might have an unassailable moat for the next 5-10 years.

I’ll have more to share on how Verl is building his “revenue octopus” in a future edition.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the AI part of the conversation, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing or doing with AI.

Ask This:

If AI made it possible to hire and quickly ramp up a “clone” of yourself, what would you have them do that would 10x your business?

Quick Links & Resources

Workman Success Systems

Verl’s Story

A big thank you to Verl for being super open and generous with his time and insights! Make sure to connect with him (if you’re not already).

And keep an eye out for an upcoming deep dive on AI, pulled from insights across all the conversations I’ve had this year with leaders, CEOs and insiders in real estate.

Talk soon!

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous

Author - MicroFamous

PS Want your own mastermind-style platform like this? Check out our Done-for-You service.

For Tristan, community isn’t a tactic you bolt onto your marketing strategy.

Everything starts with community.

When you spend more than a decade immersed in building communities, can you blame him?

He’s definitely had a lot of time to break down what works.

Going from Lab Coat Agents to…

* Masterminding community strategy for Follow Up Boss (pre-acquisition)

* Consulting with bigger brands on community strategy

* Running his own community, A Brilliant Tribe

Communities can be inspirational…aspirational…plus you have the lure of getting a free boost from social platforms. Years ago, friends in 2 different niches were each getting 1,000s of new members a month to their Facebook Groups.

And yet…community is far easier said than done (more on that below).

Here are the Non-Obvious Insights from my conversation with Tristan:

Every Marketing Channel is a Separate Community.

“People have to count on you showing up the same way routinely so you can build that community. That’s how you build the following. When you start being scattered and you’re like, ‘Well, I can do this… I can do that….’ That’s not the way people start understanding who you are and how you show up.”

Communities respond to those who show up consistently…in a way that’s tailored for their preferred channel or platform.

There are two components to putting this insight into action.

1) Choose a niche and stay ruthlessly focused.

Without niching down, you’ll be too scattered in your messaging to build community around your content. Tristan mentioned the early days of Lab Coat Agents, where the group took off specifically because it was niched down to “converting online leads.” Only later did the group evolve to cover more topics.

2) Choose your channels with care and intention.

The more channels you’re on, the more likely you are to lump them together and bandaid over the problem with content repurposing. On most of those channels, your content feels out of place. So you’ve sabotaged your chance to build real community right out of the gate.

Don’t waste money boosting content that isn’t proven organically.

“Organic content in different platforms is how you build communities and how you build brands. That’s organic because you put no money behind it. Now, the only time you put money behind it is if it blew up and now you’re like, ‘That’s a good one. Let’s put some money behind it!’ “

The larger the organization you lead, the bigger the temptation to roll out marketing campaigns from the top down. Communities reward the opposite. They want to see brands and leaders support the content that gets real engagement. Often that content starts from the bottom and bubbles up. Either from community members, emerging leaders or influencers.

That’s a big shift for many of us.

Coaches want to coach.Experts want to share expertise.Thought leaders want to teach, train and lead.

And then we have brands, who want to talk features and benefits.(head smack)

For many, building content around community stretches our brain.

Community means:

* Facilitating conversations…less teaching or sharing expertise

* Giving people freedom…even when say things you don’t agree with

* Allowing the messy and imperfect

That helps explain how many communities grow around leaders who don’t have it all figured out yet.

They’re moving fast, breaking things, and people come along for the ride.

Some leaders even take it a higher level.

They give a neglected group of people permission to be who they are, without judgment.

They create people an identity they can take pride in…even when everyone else around them disagrees or looks down on them.

I’ve seen permission-based content create powerful attraction to the group…and passionate loyalty to the leaders.

Communities demand personal growth from the leader.

“I’ve realized that the better I get internally as a human and as a leader, the better I can show up for those people that I’m trying to lead. And I didn’t know that. As I’ve gotten better and I work on myself, people actually gravitate more to me.”

In other words, all business development IS personal development. That’s one reason I love the entrepreneur space. Our businesses are a direct reflection of us as leaders.

We’ve been ingrained so much in “personal brand” marketing, that community often breaks our brains because it’s fundamentally not about us.

Building a community, especially to get the growth we envision, we have to set aside our ego and create a space for others to bond with each other.

Steal This:

Before you dive into community-building, ask yourself a few questions.

* Is there a neglected group of people I’m uniquely equipped to speak to, support and serve?

* What specific factors make them feel neglected, undervalued and underserved?

* Are they seeking out community based on those factors?

We don’t get to decide what factors drive people to form communities.

Even Apple can only encourage community, they can’t directly cause it to form.

So start by asking questions and listening deeply.

Connect with Tristan:

A Brilliant Tribe

TristanAhumada.com

Tristan’s Instagram

Big thanks to Tristan, and there’s more in the audio than I could cover here. So go listen to his conversation, it was raw, laid-back and packed with insights.

You’ll see some of those insights pop up in future newsletters, too.

Talk soon!

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous

Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

Welcome to Real Estate Thought Leaders!

This started with my obsession with one question (more on that below).

That obsession led to this platform of newsletter + podcast.

Most of the newsletters will be short. 3 non-obvious insights, some analysis from me, and an action step.

But every month I’ll write a longer “deep dive” into a specific topic.

Today’s newsletter is a deep dive.

The question I’ve been obsessed with is “How do we reach and engage agents…What’s making them lean forward and pay attention?”

So I talked to a mix of veteran and newer creators. Some were podcasters, YouTubers and often both.

Here’s what they had to say, along with my analysis…

Authenticity Creates Speed→Speed Creates Relevance.

“So I just started getting on a mic, speaking into Zoom or StreamYard or whatever and realized that nobody cared. There was no difference in analytics...In this space, nobody cares if it’s a fancy in-office, three camera set up podcast interview or if it’s via Zoom. They just cared about great content.”

So then from there to that discovery, what it allowed me for is speed, right? So now I can create content at such a faster pace, get so much more out there, be much more consistent…”—Joshua Smith, host of GSD Mode

Leaders and brands are going to struggle with the shift toward raw, authentic, even “messy” marketing. The hidden advantage of authenticity is that you can be really FAST. That makes tactics like newsjacking and trendjacking a lot more realistic.

If we can get over the internal challenges to being messy, raw and authentic in our content, we have a first mover advantage when new trends and topics catch fire.

Short-Form Hooks and Visuals Are Now Essential. Even for Podcasts.

The expectation for immediacy and visual engagement has bled into long form content like podcasting. Here’s what Dustin Brohm had to say about his mentality while recording his podcast, Massive Agent.

“I'm actually incorporating more of those short form attention grabbing tactics into my pod. Better hooks up front, getting right into it and start delivering the stuff.

I've been podcasting for seven and a half years now. When I started, I wasn't even recording video. It was just the audio. Now it's slowly progressed to where now I'm almost recording the pod, thinking about what the clips will look like.

Try Re-Creation vs Repurposing.

“You can take a long-form conversation, pull out the top themes, and then re-create that as a new, tighter piece of content. This lets you restate the hook and deliver value quickly, rather than relying on editing to force a good short [clip] out of a long conversation.”—Matt Bonelli & Garrett Frey, co-founders of LifeAtTenTenths

Algorithms will always favor content created 100% custom for their platform. That doesn’t mean you have to create everything from scratch. Take some AI shortcuts with instant, searchable transcripts and script-writing. Then create custom short-form content for social platforms that point people back to your long-form content.

When We’re Isolated, Our Content Feels Out of Touch

It’s easy to assume we know what agents are thinking and feeling.

But there are always new tweaks and nuances. New bits of language they’re using. New skills they’re scrambling to learn. Maybe even skills we assume they had.

The more we’re talking to agents, the more we can tailor our hooks in the exact language and emotion needed to get their attention and engagement.

“Agents coming into the business who started recently or in the COVID era, they don’t know anything about how to navigate this new market. So that’s what I see coming up…Even things like a home inspection…keeping sellers’ confidence in you for more than a week…They’ve never had to navigate that before…That’s how I built my original real estate muscle. So this feels natural to me.”” —Meredith Fogle, Host of So You Want to be a Real Estate Agent

“I live in that world, man. So I'm having conversations with them every single day, always asking, What's your biggest current obstacle?... I don't guess…I go out there because I spend that time with my ideal client.”—Joshua Smith

Content Builds Your Brand…Even With Agents Who Don’t Watch or Listen.

“Everybody's listening even if they're not listening. What I mean by that is I go into a room [of agents]... and half of them will say ‘I've never heard your show but I've seen all the signs and I've seen the posts.’ And the other half will say ‘I've never been on it live but I listen to it every week.’”—Lance Billingsley, host of The 13% Podcast

Lance is the VP of Agent Development for Arizona’s fastest growing title company. So he’s talking to agents every day. He’s seeing what big brands have known for years: Likes and comments on social media don’t correlate to sales.

This is partly due to “lurkers” … the folks who see posts but don’t engage, then pop up out of nowhere and buy.

And there are way more lurkers than those who engage, comment and share.

So while you’re working to make better and better content, take heart.

There are agents who see you, know you, and respect what you’re doing, without showing up in your analytics. And there’s probably more of them than you think.

Links to Full Articles Featuring These Creators

Turn Overlooked Skills into Killer Content for Agents w/Meredith Moody Fogle

Inside the Podcast Blowing Up in AZ with Lance Billingsley

Your Content Isn’t Fast Enough for Today’s Agents w/Matt Bonelli and Garrett Frey

Talking Head Videos are Dead for Reaching Agents w/Dustin Brohm

Joshua Smith Says Cut the Production Value of Your Content. Agents Don’t Care.

Big THANK YOU to all these creators for pulling back the curtain on the strategy and tactics behind their content creation.

If you don’t know one of these names, fix that! Reach out to connect with them.

These are the leaders constantly evolving to better reach and engage agents.

See you in the next edition,

-Matt Johnson

CEO - MicroFamous | Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this for your business?Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

Here’s an odd benefit of the shifting market…

It may have handed you killer topics to engage agents.

Using basic real estate skills that come so naturally, you don’t even think about them.

That’s what hit me when talking to Meredith Fogle, team leader, author and host of “So You Want to be a Real Estate Agent.”

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

The shifting market exposed a huge skills gap

“Agents coming into the business who started recently or started in the COVID era, they don’t know anything about how to navigate this new market. So that’s what I see coming up.”

The gap is around skills for a more balanced market

“Even things like a home inspection…keeping sellers’ confidence in you for more than a week…They’ve never had to navigate that before…That’s how I built my original real estate muscle. So this feels natural to me.”

Where there’s confusion, there is opportunity for thought leaders

“The way I think about it is kind of three things. One, we are creating soft skills that maybe they didn’t have before. Scripts, objection handlers, reading personality styles, etc. Then there’s the hard technical skills, knowing the contract, knowing the paperwork, how to explain it, how to negotiate. The final piece is mindset. That’s the other thing I work on a lot with people is getting through self-limiting beliefs or feelings of imposter syndrome. I think that’s happening with a lot of agents, especially who started recently in real estate.”

Ok, now for some (very) biased commentary from your humble editor:)

Before you go creating content on basic skills for agents, here are two things to keep in mind.

* Do you sell to beginners and strugglers? If so, make the content they’re looking for first, which is often a silver bullet solution. Then sneak the basics in. I’ve found that in almost every successful edutainment YouTube channel, and Joshua Smith said the same in our conversation.

* What if you DON’T sell to beginners and strugglers? Then don’t speak to struggling. Speak to success. Speak to the agents who are creating problems because of their success, not in spite of it. The ones looking for negotiation tips because they just put 3 listings under contract. If I was actively recruiting, that’s who I’d want.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

I’m trying to soak up everything I can in marketing and AI and content creation.

If I’m missing something, have a bias, or blind spot, call me on it! :)

Ask This:

What kind of agent does my content speak deeply to…

beginners and strugglers, or driven and successful?

In a hyper-competitive space like real estate, it can’t be both.

Quick Links & Resources

So You Want to be a Real Estate Agent podcast

Meredith’s Team Website

Connect with Meredith on Facebook

HUGE thanks to Meredith for pulling back the curtain on her podcast.

One interesting tidbit I didn’t mention above is that she added video to her podcast and got great feedback. Yet most of the audience continues to listen in audio form.

So yes, adding video to a podcast can be powerful, but we’ve found it can also be done sparingly and get most of the same effect.

Talk soon!

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous

Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

25,000 agents in Phoenix alone. Dominate that market and your podcast is automatically among the top in the country. Same for newsletter or YouTube channel.

So that’s what Lance Billingsley is doing. As VP of Agent Development at Navi Title (AZ’s fastest growing title co), he’s out talking to agents every day.

He wanted to build a show around the mindset of the top 13% of agents.

But he’s starting hyper-local. And it’s working.

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Create “Pick Up Your Head” content

“Agents do nothing but keep their heads down. They work with their heads down, they work in their market, they’re stressed about rates, inventory, rules. The good ones pick their heads up every once in a while, look around and go, ‘Oh, that’s what I need to pivot to!”

Create content about the 30,000 foot view, throw in the right guest and fast pacing, and you have a winning formula to get agents to pick up their heads.

Your best podcast guest might not be the big name

“Arizona is such a niche unicorn market that people just want to hear from local people in their market…that they see their signs or they see their names.”

Bonus if you can find that local agent who cranks out big numbers without big talk. Tap into the natural mystery and intrigue they’ve built up in your market.

Email + Partnerships Move the Needle…Not Social Media Alone

Lance partnered with WeSERV, the Phoenix-area REALTOR association, to sponsor and promote the podcast, as well as the Arizona School of Real Estate & Business.

These kinds of partnerships - title or mortgage company paired with local association - are potential golds mine for all brands involved.

The association gets content that’s way more engaging than they could produce on their own. The title/mortgage company gets credibility and reach to every agent in that association. Win win.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing in your marketing

Are big name guests or partners failing to move the needle for you?

There are hidden reasons for that.

Steal This:

Get hyper-targeted. Create a limited series of content that ONLY appeals to your best prospect.

AI enables mass personalization. So agents are about to expect more personalization in the ways brands and leaders market to them. Get ahead of that trend with small experiments to find what grabs attention.

Quick Links & Resources

13% Podcast on YouTube

13% Podcast on Apple

Navi Title

Connect with Lance on LinkedIn

Big THANK YOU to Lance for pulling back the curtain on the strategy and tactics behind his show.

If you don’t know him, fix that! Reach out to connect with him.

He’s one of the most forward thinking people you’ll meet in the title space.

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

Agents want you to get to the hook immediately.

No fluff, no preamble and no promotion before value is given.

Not just in Shorts and Reels, I’m seeing that extend to every form of content.

This came up in a chat with Matt Bonelli and Garrett Frey, podcasters and founders of Life at Ten Tenths.

If you don’t know their names, they’re the guys who walked away from hosting the Ninja Selling podcast…and TONS of downloads…to start their own community (more on that in a future edition).

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

You can speed up with editing tools…but not too much

“I had to speed up one of our clips… it actually worked..But if you go too far, it feels inauthentic and people disengage. Authenticity is non-negotiable, especially with younger audiences who have zero tolerance for AI-generated or fake-feeling content.” - Garrett

And where is the point where you’ve sped up too much? Hard to pin down. So if using editing tools to speed up your content isn’t an easy answer, what is?

Try Re-Creating rather than Repurposing

“You can take a long-form conversation, pull out the top themes, and then re-create that as a new, tighter piece of content. This lets you restate the hook and deliver value quickly, rather than relying on editing to force a good short out of a long conversation.” - Matt B

This also works for taking insights from long videos or podcasts and doing shorter videos or podcasts. I call these “piggyback” episodes, because you’d record the long-form content with a guest, then piggyback by recording a shorter, solo episode. Share the main takeaways from the guest along with your commentary and insights.

Whatever you do, get to the hook…FAST

“ You almost need to deliver value or prompt a question that will then get people to want to explore the value so that they can actually watch past those first 3 seconds.” - Matt B

This is where almost everyone struggles and where new opportunity lies.

* Brands struggle because they want to put their brand front and center.

* Tech companies struggle because they want to put their tech front and center.

* Many thought leaders struggle because they want to put themselves front and center.

So who’s creating zero-fluff content for the next generation of agents?

The next generation of thought leaders.

The ones with no brand to protect. No tech to sell. No big offer to push.

So they can get to the hook faster than you.

The question is…what are you going to do about it?

___________________________________________

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

Have you noticed your own content consumption habits change?

Has your tolerance dropped for slow-developing content?

I know mine has. And I can lose myself in books for hours, so it’s not an attention span issue. It’s one way we’re all responding to a world of abundant content.

Steal This:

Take one tactic or key “ah moment” from your long form content, and re-create in short form content. Video, written post, whatever you’re comfortable with.

But the key is this: Challenge yourself to get to the hook IMMEDIATELY.

No fluff, no preamble and no promotion before value is given.

Quick Links & Resources

Life at Ten Tenths community

Life at Ten Tenths podcast

We’ll feature more of Matt and Garrett in an upcoming deep dive on community building. I’ve got some incredible insights from Tristan Ahumada and a couple others to share. It will be a beast to write but I’m excited so keep an eye out!

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this? Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

Of course, every tactic is dead depending on who you’re listening to.

But when it’s coming from Dustin Brohm, who’s in the trenches every day creating content on the Massive Agent Podcast, it carries more weight.

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Agents aren’t engaging with talking head videos like they used to

“Talking head videos just suck. I posted one this morning, 20 minutes later, I'm like, ‘I shouldn't have even posted this.’ I didn't feel good about it because I don't think the format works.

The attention of not just real estate agents, but the attention of people in general, changes over time. Once a certain format or a certain trend is just overdone, people just start to glaze over and they just swipe to the next video.”

Talking head videos are about as basic, raw and authentic as it gets. Just you and a camera. So if that doesn’t catch attention, what does?

Test using visual gimmicks as the hook, not words and ideas

“I think it's much more visual than we give it credit for. The other day, my wife and I saw some other video where people did these pieces of bread with peanut butter on them and then you bounce ping pong balls to play tic-tac-toe.”

As a test, Dustin did something similar in his next 10 short videos, almost as a joke.

“And it did fairly well, I think, because visually people are like, ‘What is going on there? Why are they bouncing? What are the pieces of bread doing? Why do they have ping pong balls?’”

Clearly this is a sign of the apocalypse.

But in all seriousness. You CAN get away with this tactic, but it better be authentic to you.

Can you imagine Simon Sinek doing gimmicky hook videos?

Yeah, me neither.

“BUT, BUT…Gary Vee!” you say?

Gary Vee is genuinely obsessed with the question of “where is attention flowing right now?”

He monetized that obsession by selling social media packages to big, boring companies who hope he can make teenagers care about their big, boring company.

And if that’s your obsession, too, awesome!

Then visual gimmicks will probably work great for you.

For everyone else, it’s a trap.

It will be inauthentic, and the very people you’re trying to reach will be turned off by it.

Now for Dustin’s final insight on short-form video…

Create Your Long-Form Content with Short-Form in Mind

“I'm actually incorporating more of those short form attention grabbing tactics into my pod. Better hooks up front, getting right into it and start delivering the stuff.

I've been podcasting for seven and a half years now. When I started, I wasn't even recording video. It was just the audio. Now it's slowly progressed to where now I'm almost recording the pod, thinking about what the clips will look like.”

Even if you don’t dive into the world of YouTube Shorts and IG Reels, you can always have better hooks and less fluff.

That’s why there’s no big intro to the audio version of these conversations, no music. Just get into it. We’re entering a brave new world of UN-branding, and it’s going to make a lot of people uncomfortable. More on that in future newsletters.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me why I’m wrong about Gary Vee:)

I had a whole chapter in the MicroFamous book where I broke down Gary Vee versus Simon Sinek. So I love the stark contrast in their styles.

Steal This:

Set up your phone next to your monitor to record you while you’re guesting on podcasts or recording long-form content.

Shorts and Reels recorded from an off angle are performing better right now.

Quick Links & Resources

Massive Agent Podcast

BAM Media

Dustin’s Instagram

Loved the conversation with Dustin, super open and transparent about what’s working and not. Connect with him, subscribe to Massive Agent, do all the things.

Talk soon!

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamousAuthor - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this? Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

Josh is one of the OG’s of real estate podcasting, launching GSD Mode in 2013 (beating me to the game by about 2 years).

He’s also sold 1,000s of homes and built a massive following by ignoring industry trends and focusing on what actually works.

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Authenticity Trumps Production Value

“I just started getting on a mic, speaking into Zoom or StreamYard or whatever the platform is and realized that nobody cared. There was no difference in analytics. Nobody cared... They just cared about great content.”

Agents are getting skeptical of polished or AI-generated content. Josh saw this coming and stripped down his podcast so it’s him talking into a mic. No fancy intros and outros, no pricey studio and camera crew.

AI’s Biggest Value Might Be Productivity, Not Lead Gen

“ I think the people that are winning with AI are the ones that are looking at it as a tool to buy back their time, to get rid of the redundant stuff…the stuff that doesn’t require their unique skill set, and then double down on the stuff that does. And the people that are struggling with it are the ones that think it’s just going to do everything for them, and then they’re disappointed when it doesn’t.”

You’ll see this is a recurring theme in thought leaders I’ve spoken to. Agents are looking at AI the same way they looked at social selling 10 years ago, as a way to avoid the tedium of lead gen or relationship building.

That means there’s a big opportunity to create content for each of those 2 groups - 1) The beginners and strugglers who will click on content about AI for lead gen (then steer them to better uses), and 2) More advanced, successful agents looking for AI productivity hacks specifically for real estate.

The Hardest Work Is Listening, Not Speaking

“That is the hard work that some content creators don’t want to go through. Even some frontline leaders, right? It’s constantly being in the trenches, talking to your ideal audience and having the humility to ask and not believe that you already know because you’ve been around the business. And I’m that’s an easy temptation to fall into, right? I fall into it too.”

It’s easy to get disconnected from the shifting pain points and mental states of everyday agents. Especially if you’re in a leadership role rather than in production.

The best way to get reconnected is through conversations. The MOM Test is a super useful book for having these kinds of exploratory conversations, it’s one of Tim Ferriss’ most recommended.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat with Josh, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing in your marketing

I’m seeing that agent’s mindsets are changing, the market is shifting, and content is evolving…all at the same time.

Should it surprise us that the stuff that worked 2 years ago isn’t working so well today?

Steal This:

Take a page from Josh’s playbook and publish something so raw it makes you uncomfortable.

I’d bet it gets more engagement than anything you’ve put out that “elevates your brand.”

See for yourself how much people are craving content that’s real and raw.

Quick Links & Resources

GSD Mode Podcast

YouTube Channel

Instagram

Mastery Bootcamp Coaching

Big THANK YOU to Josh for doing this series!

He’s one of the hardest working thought leaders in real estate.

So connect with him at one of those links and give him a shoutout.

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamousAuthor - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this? Click here to learn about our done-for-you services.

Hey! Matt Johnson here, thanks for checking out Real Estate Thought Leaders.

This is a passion project to answer a few big questions my friends and agency clients are facing right now.

How do we…

* get agents’ attention?

* create a sense of shared mission and community?

* deal with marketing platforms getting more expensive and less effective?

All while respond to massive shifts in technology, regulation and agent expectations?

So I wanted to talk to leaders in a variety of niches that have one common thread -

They need to reach and engage real estate agents to hit their goals.

Maybe they’re a coach, speaker or author, maybe they’re a leader at a title or mortgage brand, a real estate SaaS founder, a team leader or broker, even an association leader.

We all have the same challenges, so I wanted to create the ultimate guide to reach and engage agents, the kind of content I would have killed for when I started Real Estate Uncensored 10 years ago.

Now call me lucky or good, but that podcast did well and has millions of downloads and put me on a bunch of stages.

I started that because I have an inner drive to teach, train and lead people.

That drive is so deep I can’t shut it off.

And if you have the same drive, you’re probably already trying to reach and engage agents.

And you know you can be doing it better.

The insights on this platform will help you do that.

If you want help putting those insights into action, here are two ways I can help.

Private Consulting - Let’s talk systems and strategies for engagement, monetization, co-marketing and partner channel marketing, and frictionless content systems.

Go here to grab a Quick Connect Call.

Done-for-You Content You have authentic conversations. We turn that into multiple forms of content. From email newsletters and social posts to audio podcasts and YouTube videos. So you amplify your most authentic content.

But even if you just follow along and do it yourself, hopefully this platform will help you reach and engage agents so you can hit your goals. Enjoy!

Levi and his partner have built 2 YouTube channels with a combined 60k subs. So when he says newer YouTubers have the advantage…that they’re building audiences even faster…that catches my attention.

What are they doing differently, and what are they incorporating into their own growth strategy?

Let’s get into it.

Start With a High Performing Format.

“Look outside of your market. I did a video….based off of the idea of Mr. Beast’s video…even Mr. Beast is like looking outside of his market... He didn’t find that inspiration from another YouTuber. He found it from Netflix.”

“Young guns, like 20s and 30s... They’re able to look at [YouTube], and they understand it. They’re saying, ‘Okay, I’m just gonna look at all the best performing videos’..And then they just recreate those. And you’re seeing new creators get traction pretty quickly.” - Levi

A high performing format is a proven attention hack. A glitch in the matrix. Something about that format speaks to people on a primal level. Using a high performing format instantly raises your potential growth.

Example: 3 of the top 8 videos on the coaching channel play on the same title format.

Here’s another funny example of videos I’ve seen in my feed in the last month or so…

Notice the bottom 2 have MILLIONS of views. They’re also 2-3 years old. In other words, this thumbnail is such a powerful visual format that it’s STILL working today.

But there’s a mindset challenge here. Many of us are in real estate because we have an independent streak. We’re driven to be original, but YouTube doesn’t reward originality. YouTube rewards what works.

Put Most of Your ENERGY into Customizing the Format.

YouTube formats are like vehicles…and ideas are the fuel.

Powerful ideas are like replacing unleaded with racing fuel.

Once he has the format, Levi goes looking for ways to tweak it for his audience.

Drawing topic ideas from everywhere…random chats at events, being out in his community, news, social media.

However, he also gave a word of caution...

“Make sure you stay in alignment with what you cover and what you talk about. You don’t want to just go right off into left field.”

Instead, look for ways to pair the high performing format with a high performing topic.

Something your audience is already interested in. A topic that speaks deeply and specifically to them. Their needs, desires and values. Their phrasing, emotion and nuance.

For a creator like Kallaway, this speaks deeply to his audience. He was also smart about putting Hormozi in the upper right of the thumbnail. Capitalizing on Hormozi’s $100M launch.

Use AI to Accelerate the Research & Scripting

“Within three minutes, you can have a whole video script. And before, that would probably take me 30-45 minutes alone, just to piece all that together. And that was…just trying to get the bullet points!”

Brainstorm with your favorite AI tool. Use it to create unique hooks and angles, question your biases and assumptions, press you to sharpen your ideas.

Then have AI write the first draft script. Once you tweak the script for yourself, load it back into AI. Have the AI analyze the final version and draw lessons it can apply to future scripts, or spit out a full custom prompt for your next script.

The goal here is to create a script and outline that blends the high performing format with a powerful idea for your niche. All in a way that allows you to speak in your authentic voice.

Let’s sum up…

Attention Hacking on YouTube

* Start with a high-performing format from another niche

* Find a powerful idea that speaks to your niche - invest as much energy as it takes

* Use AI tools to speed up research and scripting

Want to go deeper? Click above to listen to the full chat with Levi, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

Any YouTuber creators you’d like me to interview, I’m all ears as well.

Steal This:

ChannelStudio.ai - Levi and Travis’ go-to tool for YouTube analytics and insights.

Quick Links & Resources

Passive Prospecting YouTube Channel - Levi and Travis’ coaching channel

PassiveProspecting.com - Home for all Levi and Travis’ coaching and services

Living in Dallas - The channel that started it all

Levi on Instagram

Massive shoutout to Levi, what he and Travis have done is super impressive. Make sure you’re connected with Levi and connect him to any podcasts or YouTube shows that might want to feature him as a guest!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can help…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into systems.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, we’ve been the content team behind many of your fellow real estate coaches, speakers and authors. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

Scott Richard isn’t selling AI like the rest of the industry. The broker-turned-tech-founder is allergic to hype.

And after scratching his own itch, he’s built tools that are so useful, agents and brokers sell themselves.

Scott’s playbook is all about authenticity, live demos, and getting insanely specific about who he’s talking to. Here’s how he’s actually getting agents’ attention in a market where everyone’s been pitched to death.

Stop Trying to Convince Agents of Anything.

Let your tool do the talking…and literally, the showing.

Scott’s AI tool came from solving his own brokerage headaches, not from some mastermind funnel. So he ditches the sales pitch and offers a screenshare.

“I just say, Let me show you. And I turn it on and let them test it, and they’re blown away... I’m not trying to sell you something. I’m actually trying to help the industry. And that’s a totally different approach to how this came about.

Live screen-sharing demos…Raw, unscripted, no pitch deck…That’s how Scott gets people to lean forward.

It makes agents and brokers feel like Scott isn’t selling them at all.

He’s just sitting on the same side of the table, showing them what he’s built.

And because value is so obvious, the sales process is basically: “Here’s the next step if you want it.”

Your Content Isn’t Specific Enough for the AI Era.

“People don’t quite realize...the amount of content that’s gonna get put out....From a real estate business standpoint, I’m [thinking], Okay, how do I USE it?

How do I adopt it without losing the authenticity of the message? And I think the difference is using the tools to convey a message and be very specific on the message you’re conveying.” -

As an example, Scott is baking personalization into his AI tool.

“I think the future of where this is going…tools that can answer at your level. So when [users] ask a question, [AI tool] gives an answer at their level and it aligns to them.”

His tool isn’t just “AI for real estate.” His AI tool answers compliance and business questions in the voice the user needs to hear:

* For brand new agents, it “talks like a coach,” giving encouragement and clear action steps.

* For managing brokers, it “talks like a risk consultant,” focusing on liability and policy.

When AI can personalize to this degree, agents’ expectations are going to skyrocket. Generic marketing won’t cut it. The era of “just flood the zone with content” might be over.

Apply Emerging Tech to Problems You Understand DEEPLY.

Scott’s blueprint:

* Relentless specificity in content, audience, and demos.

* Relentless focus on the actual problem he solved for himself as a broker.

When you ARE the target market, you know when you’ve built something truly useful.

So useful that your sales process can basically be, “Here, let me show you…”

Want to go deeper?

Click to listen to the full conversation with Scott.Or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Ask This:

Where can I replace “Here’s why you should buy...” with “Here, let me show you?”Who am I actually talking to…and does my content speak to their level?

Quick Links & Resources

Scott Richard’s website:

AI-Powered Real Estate

Big shoutout to Scott for sharing what he’s doing! I love the raw, authentic approach to sales, and the relentless drive to build something truly useful…not just profitable for himself. Make sure you connect with Scott if you’re not already!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can serve you…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into new rituals and habits, and get your entire team on board.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, my content team has served many of your fellow real estate leaders. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

Ray Wood has been around long enough to know what works with agents, and what doesn’t.

The Aussie-Canadian direct response veteran behind AI Ad Machine has used every outreach tactic in the book. Cold calls, one-on-one calls, high-end sales presentations.

But he’s finding that sometimes, agents want less personal attention.

Here’s what Ray’s learned about reaching agents in 2025, plus the testing strategy that’s letting him run 100+ ad variations simultaneously.

Here are the Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation…

Group-First, Low-Pressure Offers are Beating 1:1 Calls Right Now.

“I reach out [to agents] and say, ‘Hey I’m doing this and this, why don’t we jump on a call?’ ...May or may not get a response. If I say I’m doing a free training...I get much more buy-in.”

It’s high-leverage, maximized opt-ins, and he can qualify leads by engagement. Reminds me of how Josh Smith’s virtual workshops are performing well for him this year.

Experiment with Newsletter Platforms to Get More Results from Your Email List.

“So what I’ve done is I’ve created some content and then built a link, which has got a [Substack] subscribe button and I’ve sent that out to my list. I think in two weeks, I’ve had a couple of hundred people opt-in from a 28K email list. For normal day-to-day, I’m using Kajabi. I’m familiar with it and that’s where all my contacts are. So that’s what works for me.” - Ray Wood

Still early days, but I love that he’s testing this. Newsletter tools like Substack or BeeHiiv tend to have better deliverability over tools like Kajabi. Any tool that caters to the info marketing or course creator niche will have above-average unsubscribe rates, which hurts deliverability for all their users.

Ruthless A/B Testing Beats Intuition Every Time

Ray’s tool runs 40-100 different ads simultaneously and kills the losers within 10 days.

“With the Ad Machine, I can run a set of 40, 50, 100 different ads. And after 10 days, I can monitor which image is working, which copy’s working, which headlines working... and then I can continually focus on that”.

It’s a good lesson for any leader…Never fall in love with your own messaging ideas or clever copy.

It’s better to create 100 imperfect campaigns and let agents tell you which ones work. Double down on what works, and ruthlessly cut the rest.

So let’s sump up the core principles I take from Ray’s playbook:

* Test everything, assume nothing - Run multiple variations simultaneously and let data decide

* Lower the barrier, raise the value - Group trainings feel safer than sales calls while delivering the same qualification

* Own your audience - Build on platforms where you control the relationship

Want to go deeper?

Click to listen to the full conversation with Ray Wood. Or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

What’s working for tech founders and innovators to reach agents?Where could they sharpen their messaging and get more effective?

Ask This:

When was the last time I tested my assumptions about my audience?

What simple test could I run that would generate useful, non-obvious insights to improve my marketing?

Quick Links & Resources

Ray Wood’s AI Ad Machine

Thanks so much to Ray for opening up his marketing playbook. Make sure you reach out and connect with him, nothing beats his Aussie positivity and direct response mentality!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can serve you…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into new rituals and habits, and get your entire team on board.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, my content team has served many of your fellow real estate leaders. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

Facing critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy? Click below to learn about working with me in a 90-Day Strategy Sprint.

Mike’s a self-admitted data guy. Not a sales or marketing guy.

But he did 3 really smart things.

And he ended up building a category king business and getting acquired by HousingWire.

Here are the…

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Behavior Signals Mindset.

“Those are our customers, you know, they’re investing in their business. They’re paying for a CRM, they’re buying digital ads, they’re farming. If they’re investing in their business, then they understand the power of using market data in that communication to grow the business. That was really the key distinguishing characteristic we noticed” - Mike Simonsen

The big challenge to growing Altos was that agents care more about leads and clients than data.

Like any tech founder, Mike was super excited about his product. But he learned pretty fast that his market wasn’t “every agent.” Only agents who had the mindset to invest in their business could see the value prop.

Which led to the next challenge. He couldn’t buy a list of “agents who have the mindset to invest in their business.”

Mike’s breakthrough was that behavior signals mindset.

Agents who showed up to tech conferences and camps were serious about their business, and open to new technology and tools. By showing up in those places, Mike put Altos in front of a hyper-targeted group of A-list prospects.

But at some point Mike had to break out of those early adopters. Which meant the challenge shifted back to reaching the average agent or broker. That’s where Mike hit on something I really want to emphasize.

Reframes Unlock Sales.

“We had to learn how to be top of funnel lead systems and lead nurture over time... And I’m a data software guy…now all of a sudden I’m talking about lead conversion.

Mike reframed data as a new competitive advantage…in agent’s marketing and in their listing presentation. Just by subscribing, any agent could be the “local expert” to their sphere, no number crunching required.

Taking an offer that isn’t naturally top-of-funnel and MAKING it top-of-funnel is impressive. It’s a very powerful reframe.

Has it been overused since then by everyone who sells to agents?

Of course. Because it works.

“Even if you ask people like, why do they buy Altos today? They’ll probably say, ‘We love the data,’ but what do they need to do with their business? Yeah. They need to grow their business.. They need to get leads in the door. They need to nurture those into clients. And so you’ve got to connect that from A to B.”

There are reasons people say they buy, and the reasons they actually buy.

The right reframe hits at the actual reasons people buy, which is why it unlocks new levels of sales.

The Right Reframe Forces You to Raise Your Game.

“You know, we had to build things that were [new]. You got to email the reports out automatically. You’ve got to track the followup. We had to build all of those things.”

There’s an interesting trap Mike could have fallen into.

The reframe is brilliant. Agents agree with the reframe. Sales picks up.

And then…the product doesn’t deliver, and agents cancel.

Mike didn’t fall into that trap. He improved the product to match the reframe.

Reframes Change Lives.

Just look at books. Some of the most impactful business books are built on reframes.

* Millionaire Real Estate Agent - “You don’t have to sell homes forever. You can exit production…and we have the model to follow.”

* 80/20 Principle - “Most things aren’t important. Focus on the “vital few” and you’ll get 10x results with far less effort.”

* Profit First - “You don’t need to change, you need a different system around you. So you can be yourself and still hit your financial goals.”

Profit First is one of the most powerful reframes I’ve ever come across. If you haven’t picked it up in a while, go read the first couple chapters. Absolute genius.

Here’s the thing about a great reframe…Once people hear it, they can never un-hear it.Especially if you have proof to back it up.

If I were advising a leader or company bringing a brand new concept to real estate agents, I’d be asking myself “Where’s the reframe?”

Agents have lots of problems. They know they have those problems. They’re bombarded with ads and offers to solve those problems.

And yet agents allow many of those problems to go on for years, even decades. With little or no effort to solve them.

Unless you get agents to see their problem in a new way…don’t expect them to understand your new concept or buy immediately.

When I first worked with Jeff Cohn on the Team Building Podcast and Elite Real Estate Systems, we had to attack the idea that successful teams only worked in huge cities like Dallas or Atlanta.

We created this reframe: “You can build a dominant real estate team in virtually ANY market in the country. We did it in Omaha, NE and we’ll share all our systems with you.”

Once we’d established that, we attacked other common objections with this reframe: “You can build a real estate team that nets you $1 million a year and runs without your personal production or relying on rockstar agents.”

Jeff didn’t just throw content out there. He published hyper-specific content…built around highly targeted reframes. And that content generated demand for Jeff’s systems and created millions in coaching revenue.

Side note…PLACE is a new concept. What determines whether it will work?

Their ability to sell the idea of “home ownership experience.”

A new category that wraps up many different services.

Services where consumers already have specialized categories in their mind.

That’s going to take a powerful reframe.

Facing critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy? Click below to learn about working with me in a 90-Day Strategy Sprint.

To go deeper with Mike Simonsen: Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Mike also shares the hilarious story of how he made one of his first sales, and how he overcame his ego to jump on YouTube.

Ask This:

When you describe the problem you solve…to an ideal prospect…are they startled? Shocked, even? Do they leave that conversation forever changed?

Quick Links & Resources

Follow Mike on X (Twitter)

Altos Research

Recommended Books for Ideas on Reframing:

Play Bigger

22 Immutable Laws of Marketing

Positioning

Mike was such a good sport to say Yes to an interview. We’d never been introduced and he was super open and generous. Make sure to follow him on X to see what he’s up to since the acquisition of Altos. I know he’s got something exciting to share when the time is right!

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO & Author - MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can serve you…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into new rituals and habits, and get your entire team on board.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, my content team has served many of your fellow real estate leaders. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

This platform is about the non-obvious, the subversive, the counterintuitive stuff.

That’s where Jess really stands out.

We’re talking…

* screenshotting troll comments and sharing them openly

* posting on IG for years without selling anything

* breaking the model of “accountability” coaching

She also runs ListingsLab from a small Caribbean island.

Is she the Bond villain of real estate coaching?

Too generous and fun to be a villain…

But she just might be the next model of real estate coaching.

She sells systems and permission. Not butt-kicking accountability.

She’s raw, irreverent, and unapologetic.

In everything from her content to coaching.

All underpinned by deep thinking and unorthodox strategy.

Let’s get into it...

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Buy a Dinosaur Puppet. Talk to the Puppet.

“The opposite of love online isn’t hate, it’s indifference…So I’m not trying to be clickbaity. I’m not trying to rage bait or anything like that. I’m just constantly forming my own opinions about why we do the things that we do, backed up with data.”

Ok so the dinosaur puppet…Jess bought it specifically to “conversate with on my Instagram in terms of dinosaur real estate agents.”

With almost 90k followers, she knows it will rub some people the wrong way, but that’s the point. By creating a strategic enemy…and quickly alienating agents who don’t like her style…Jess magnetically attracts those who will.

This is where many leaders will miss the boat on “authenticity.”

It’s not about using more slang in your marketing copy, or sharing your hobbies or interests on Insta. Sure, that’s better than stodgy corporate content.

But the next model of coaching pushes that much further.

Be so radically authentic that you quickly and gladly alienate the wrong agents.

To the right agents, that’s magnetic.

Turn Internet Trolls into Permission Content.

“Cold traffic is a nasty place on the internet, right? But I think the comments are hilarious. So I do my version of Mean Tweets... I screenshot all of them. I send them to my friends…There’s an element of permission [agents] are looking for. We’re all getting trolled... If I’m really transparent about it and we can have a laugh over it…maybe it’s not such a big deal.”

If you’ve ever coached agents on creating content…you know the frustration.

But what if every missed deadline, every unposted video, are just outer signs of an inner fear of being visible?

Traditional “butt-kicking accountability” coaching doesn’t have a great solution for that.

By showing that Jess doesn’t care about trolling comments, she gives agents permission to not care, either. Even to share their troll comments and laugh together.

That’s a very different approach.

Show Up & Serve…Long Before You Ask for the Sale.

“Now I have this untapped audience on Instagram that I’m starting to pull business from. And I’m finding that... because I haven’t sold so heavily to them, they’re a lot more open to being sold to at this point.“

While selling heavily on other platforms, Jess showed up on Instagram for years. No pitching, just being herself and sharing content.

I would tell any leader to do the same…with one caveat.

You need the right kind of offer.

Leaders are telling me they’re hearing lots of exhaustion, hesitation and self-doubt. Agents have seen so much fake urgency, artificial scarcity, and exaggerated promises. They’re doubting everyone, even themselves and their own decision making.

So whether the offer is implementation, customization, or just more access…

Agents need a plausible, structural reason to believe your offer is 10x more valuable than the content you give away. That value must be baked into the structure of the offer itself.

Want Attention? Stop Watering Yourself Down.

When asked what topics were getting her traction with agents…

“Just say the things you’re afraid to say... say the things that you think, and then you vanilla down before you spit them out.”

I’ve asked many leaders that question. No one gave an answer quite so blunt and insightful.

It’s not easy to cut through the noise online. I talked about that in MicroFamous, which came out 5 years ago.

My solution was to use content to deliver an idea so compelling, so startling, so arresting and attention-grabbing, that once prospects encounter it, they can never unhear it. They must learn more. And I still believe that’s the best approach for MY kind of clients.

Jess is running her own version of that playbook.

Sharing bold and polarizing opinions…formed from deep thinking and daily coaching…delivered in her unique style.

The Next Model of Real Estate Coach

Based on my conversations with Jess and others who fit the same model, they…

* Stay raw, authentic and unapologetic…even in the face of online trolls

* Turn off agents they don’t want to coach…gladly and immediately

* Show up and serve agents…long before asking for the sale

* Take a strong stand…often calling out a “strategic enemy”

* Say the things they really believe in…even when it’s risky

* Give permission…not just butt-kicking accountability

At the very least, it’s a great example of the kind of marketing that’s working right now.

But I’d be OK if that becomes the dominant model of real estate coach.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing.

Know another coach who fits this model? I’d love to talk to them.

Steal This:

Find something that you stand against.

Could be a person, a group of people, even an idea.Go on Amazon, and buy a puppet or plush toy that represents it.It’s a light-hearted exercise to find your strategic enemy.

You might even use it in your content!

Quick Links & Resources

ListingsLab

Jess’ story (powerful)

Connect with Jess on Insta

There’s more in the conversation I didn’t have room for, including Jess’ plans for her new AI product (in launch at time of recording). So check out the full audio, and make sure you’re connected to Jess on Instagram if you’re not already!

Talk soon,

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Want to reach your best prospects with mastermind-style content like this?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service.

This week shares some tactics you can test in the next 30 days with zero change of strategy.

The inspiration is a chat with DJ Paris about how he’s using Keeping It Real to reach and attract agents to the Chicago-based brokerage he serves.

Now let’s get into the tactics…

Video SMS for Cold Outreach

“I now do video SMS... I think it’s actually less invasive than a text message... they can visually see that I have this set up. They may know that I have a podcast…And here I am reaching out to them individually.“ DJ Paris

Sending video texts with his podcast branding behind him is a nice twist, especially when you have a show getting hundreds of thousands of downloads a year. And he’s not the only leader who’s mentioned using video texts for recruiting with good success so far.

DJ found the same thing my co-host did when recruiting off our show, Real Estate Uncensored years ago. Content creates some inbound leads, but outbound outreach can 10x your results.

YouTube Videos Optimized for TV, not Mobile

“For the last 3-4 years, I‘ve always been proud of the fact that 33% of our traffic came from TV…In the last year alone, that number has jumped to 66%. And now based on all the recent data, YouTube is the number one streaming app on TV. It’s beating out Netflix and it’s got the most watch time over Netflix as well.” - Levi Lascak, real estate YouTuber, trainer & author of Passive Prospecting

He’s not the only leader who’s mentioned they’re shifting how they create YouTube content, starting with YouTube TV-viewing as the main priority over mobile. That’s a massive shift in consumption habits in just the last couple years. But it tracks with my personal experience, too. YouTube is often the first app I pull up on a TV.

Virtual Workshops & Virtual Live Events

“I still like live webinars, live workshops cause I can reach such a bigger audience. And it’s so hard to get 200, 300 people in a room now anymore. But it’s very easy for me to drive 300-400 people….we just did a four-hour virtual workshop called the Remote Agent Blueprint. We had 82 [people] stay to the END.” Joshua Smith, GSD Mode

If we see a backlash against polished content thanks to AI tools, I could see live workshops and events getting popular again. They may be one of the few ways to learn who is actually a legit thought leader.

Custom Shorts & Reels over AI Clipping Tools & Repurposing

“We’re repurposing less. We’re hyper focused on our niche(s). We’re most focused on what we do well and others can’t or won’t do…than winning on every battlefield. - Todd Tramonte, host of Commissioned

“I’m also using those crappy AI clippers... probably shouldn’t, but I do. And I try to post really good short form content that’s original….I write a script. I don’t use AI. I use CapCut to edit it, takes 10 seconds…it’s not as cool as I’d like it to look, but it’s me.” - DJ Paris

“In the beginning of the podcast, we’d just hop on video to quickly announce the new episode. Those clips didn’t perform well, very few views or interactions. But once we started making them fun and entertaining, engagement followed. Reels and stories that included movement, laughter, silliness, or storytelling consistently got much better results. We also don’t mind this, because we enjoy making them! - Katy Caldwell, co-host of Hustle Humbly

Pulling short-form content out of long-form feels super easy with AI tools. But it will never beat 100% custom content. I love DJ’s tactic of writing, recording and editing all in one go for simplicity and focus on execution.

For podcasters and YouTubers, I haven’t found anyone who claims to have short-form content figured out. Diary of a CEO is the only one that caught my eye. BUT…they are 100% custom, painstakingly hand-edited. 10X the editing time of an entire podcast episode. We’ve played around with it in our agency, and they’re extremely difficult to produce, and the process is highly subjective. So not something we can build into our done-for-you service (sadly!).

Test New Formats…But Stay Super Consistent.

“In the beginning of the podcast, we’d just hop on video to quickly announce the new episode. Those clips didn’t perform well, very few views or interactions. But once we started making them fun and entertaining, engagement followed. Reels and stories that included movement, laughter, silliness, or storytelling consistently got much better results. We also don’t mind this, because we enjoy making them!” - Katy Caldwell, co-host of Hustle Humbly

“I’ve been really consistent at doing this. And there’s all kinds of things I’m sure I could have done better and different with my podcast. I actually had a friend reach out, he’s building another tech company and [said]. ‘I want to see what you’re up to. I’ve just seen you do this podcast so consistently for so long. It’s just telling of your commitment to things.’ I never thought of it [podcasting] that way…as you actually on display showing the fact that you’re not going anywhere.” - Justin Stoddart, host of Think Bigger Real Estate

“I’m going deeper into raw, real, organic, even less edited…The engagement seems better there. People appreciate that more because everything is so highly edited now and polished. So while most people are going deeper to AI, I’m doing the opposite.” Joshua Smith, GSD Mode

Any form of content creation that is relentlessly consistent will go through ups and downs. Peaks and valleys in your energy and excitement. The less you sweat the small stuff, the more you can test new tactics and approaches along the way.

Mindset Shift: Treat Every Piece of Content Separately.

“We had a more strict “post per day” policy system in the beginning that also focused on how the feed aesthetics looked. Now we do not limit ourselves to that and just focus on providing value.” - Katy Caldwell, co-host of Hustle Humbly

You can’t test new formats if you’re worried about how all your content looks together.

Audiences rarely see all your content together in one place, anyway. They consume content one video, one post, one newsletter at a time.

The Free Press, which is published on Substack, is about to sell for a rumored $200 million to CBS parent company. Substack doesn’t give a ton of flexibility on branding. Free Press built their brand around content and a point of view, not by having all their content look consistent.

If you’re an independent expert, leader or creator, without a huge organization, embrace this advantage. Get messy.

Worry less about whether a piece of content “elevates your brand” or if everything has a consistent look across platforms.

Worry more about whether it speaks deeply and specifically to the right people.

If you can do that, you’ll build a loyal audience a lot faster.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat with DJ Paris, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

Am I missing any cool tactics from other creators and leaders?

Ask This:

What would you do differently in your content if you didn’t care how it fit with anything else you’ve done? What would you experiment with that’s TOTALLY authentic to you?

Quick Links & Resources

Keeping it Real Podcast w/DJ Paris

Think Bigger Real Estate w/Justin Stoddart

Hustle Humbly Podcast w/Alissa Jenkins & Katy Caldwell

Commissioned with Todd Tramonte

GSD Mode w/Joshua Smith

Thanks to all of our contributors, DJ, Joshua and Justin who jumped on Zoom (more to come from Justin on his venture ProInsight), and Katy Caldwell and Todd Tramonte who sent in their input by email.

If you’re interested in contributing your thoughts and insights, hit Reply!

I’ll shoot you the questions we’re asking leaders, insiders and content creators. I want to feature insights from a range of folks beyond those who can jump on Zoom for a full interview.

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO & Author - MicroFamous

PS Want to publish mastermind-style content for your best prospects?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service

Mike’s most effective video wasn’t what I expected.

But when YouTube comes up in my conversations with leaders, I hear a much bigger, unspoken question.

“What does it cost to WIN on YouTube…In time, energy, money…and my SOUL?”

That’s what I want to dig into in this edition. So here are the non-obvious insights from the chat with Mike and my analysis.

Plan on $100k & 2 years minimum to “prime the system.”

“Well for 3 years, I was putting out 2, 3 videos a week. And after 3 years, I had like 1500 subscribers. Nobody knew who I was, not much engagement on my content until the right vehicle aligned with the content. When I joined [eXp], that's when I had 30 agents every 30 days for my first six months. And it just blew up because I primed the system ahead of time.”

Priming the system means mastering content creation and building social capital with an audience. That social capital is what you’re drawing on when you make an offer.

I’m making a few assumptions that you will…

* Take the same amount of time (you’re probably not better than Mike)

* Release 300-500 videos total - (2-3/wk for 3 years)

* Hire out the creative work (you’re not editing vids at 2am)

A little napkin math gets you to 6 figures pretty fast.

Think you’ll get a great editor for cheap overseas? Good luck.You’re probably doing what my agency does, hiring freelance pros in North America.

So let’s assume $100 per video on editing. That’s on the low end. So that’s $30-50k in video editing costs.

At the highest levels, thumbnails require a specialized graphic designer. I’d be ready to spend $200+ per thumbnail (not counting split testing variations). At one point, the agency behind Mel Robbins’ YT channel was charging $1500/mo just for thumbnail design and split testing.

If you can hire a great young thumbnail designer for $100 each, consider yourself blessed by the gods. That's another $30-50k for thumbnails.

Then we have everything else.

Codie Sanchez reportedly dropped $200k on strategy, branding and groundwork for her channel launch.

Competing at the highest level is serious business.

Either give the audience what they want, or stay invisible.

“I did really well in the beginning with [videos about] Instagram, Facebook ads and door knocking. Well, everyone wanted the se.xier topics, Instagram and Facebook ads, not door knocking. So I went down that kind of avenue."

To grow a channel from scratch today, you have to throw enough content out there to see what works…and then double down on it.

Even if the audience pulls you away from topics you want to cover.

YouTube draws a high percentage of beginners overall. Industry turnover creates lots of beginner agents. So if creating beginner-level content feels totally authentic, you're set up pretty well.

To compete with the best Youtubers, you’ll have to go beyond that and find the sweet spot where your content speaks to beginners, intermediate and pros.

If you can’t find that sweet spot, or beginner-level content feels inauthentic, you’ll have a hard time competing at the highest level on YouTube.

Your ego will die a 1,000 deaths

From the content you put out, or the guests you have on, to the feast-or-famine nature of the algorithm. Every aspect of the journey will kill your ego.

"So where I see a lot of people on YouTube go wrong is…they all get infatuated by the vanity metrics. I want to feature this major influencer, this person that was on TV or this big coach, all of that stuff…

…Every person I've featured on my YouTube channel [success stories] is in my revenue share organization, but it goes deeper than that…Those interviews truthfully have been the secret sauce of scaling. It's pretty much a 30-50 minute success case study."

Those videos have no big name guests and don’t get the most views. They are simply the most effective videos for hitting his goal of attracting agents.

Having a ton of overlap is a nice bonus. The content you love to make…gets big views…and is super effective.

But when there isn't a ton of overlap, and you want to compete at the highest level, you’ll be faced with a choice.

Lean into what’s most effective…Or what gets the most views?

Mike also shared the spotlight, and it paid off in a big way.

"I said, well, We're all partners on this journey. How can I put out a different message that allows somebody to connect with the [guest] based on who they are?

I have people from every age, race, ethnicity, gender, language, personality type, and geographic location. So if you're not interested in me, it's almost impossible to go on my channel and not find somebody you see yourself in."

By sharing the spotlight, he gives the audience more options. More people they can connect with. And then he sends viewers to the guest, so they get the sponsorship, even when it dilutes the direct benefit Mike gets.

You'll learn a lot about your relationship with ego in those choices.

Ultimately, the cost of competing on YouTube at the highest level is obsession.

Mike took his engineering background and obsessed over an algorithm built by engineers. He changed his consumption habits and cut relaxation time to spend more time on YouTube. He obsessed over what grabbed attention and what didn’t. If you share that obsession, you’ve got a good head start.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re thinking.

Are you already on YouTube? Looking at it?

Ask This:

Where can you share the spotlight?

Where can you let your agents, clients or users tell their own story?

Quick Links & Resources

Mike’s YouTube Channel

Mike’s website

Connect with Mike on Insta

Massive thanks to Mike for sharing what it takes to compete and win on YouTube! Connect with him (if you haven’t already) and if you’re going down the same path, pick apart his channel. You’ll come away with some killer tactics!

Talk soon,

Matt

Matt Johnson

CEO & Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service

Here’s a short list of things Jay is NOT doing to promote his book…

* speaking all over the country

* shouting about how he hit #1 on Amazon

* staying up til 2am giving his 10th podcast interview of the day

But he’s also not coasting on the success of Millionaire Real Estate Agent and The ONE Thing.

Jay is playing a different game.

Here are the Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation…

Category Killers Own Bookshelves for Decades

"I want a long bestselling book in the sense that it's best in category...I call them category killers and I don't think you should write anything else."

If an agent asked you what book they should pick up on negotiation, what’s your first thought? Probably “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss.

That’s the power of a category killer book. Sustainable authority and sales…for decades.

Jay says there hasn’t been a category killer book for rookie agents in 20 years.

He spotted that market gap while talking to agents on The ONE Thing Podcast. Since then he’s asked 250+ of the most successful agents in the country, “What did you do differently as a new agent?” The book comes directly from that on-the-ground intelligence.

That’s why Jay is skipping the Amazon best-seller strategy, and obsessed over creating the best-in-category book that will get organic word of mouth for the next 20 years.

Email Outsells Social Media 50 to One for Book Sales

"People tend to click in an email and they outsell social for me, 50 to one. And I know so many authors that would [say], ‘Yeah, for every book I sell on social or on YouTube, I sell 50 through my email list.’"

Most of us have an email list, however neglected it may be. But are we delivering value…consistently…for months or years…before we show up and ask people to buy our book? Probably not.

This is even more of a challenge for aspiring B2B authors who aren’t natural writers (that’s where our service can be helpful).

But whether you’re a natural writer or not, we all have the challenge of how to grow our email list…

Jay Would Take a Newsletter Swap Over a Podcast Interview

"Anne-Laure Le Cunff...did, I think, 10 newsletter swaps, where she said, “I'll write about your book on my newsletter if you write about mine.” And she found that that had a very, very measurable impact on her book launch and getting on the New York Times."

Just a few years ago, going on podcasts was the #1 way B2B authors sold more books. They’d kill themselves doing 50 interviews in a month, staying up til 2 or 3am, just to support the launch. Now, Jay is hearing whispers from other authors like “I went on Jay Shetty’s podcast and it moved 2 books.”

So he’s turning to email newsletters. If you have an email newsletter for agents and you’re interested in featuring Jay, reply and I’ll connect you.

Newsletters not only drive book sales, but they can help grow your email list. You don’t have to rely on people hearing you on a podcast and going to Amazon. You have more control by the type of link you put in the newsletter swap.

You can even work out an arrangement with the newsletter publisher to share the list of those who clicked on your book from the email, or send clicks through an email opt-in page.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

What book launch tactics have caught your eye? Will we see more email newsletters in real estate?

Ask This:

If I want to write a book in the next few years, what am I doing right now, TODAY, to grow my email list?

Quick Links & Resources

JayPapasan.com

Rookie Real Estate Agent - Jay’s new book

The ONE Thing podcast

Write Useful Books - Rob Fitzpatrick - AMAZING book on how to write the category killer that dominates the shelf and word of mouth for decades. From the author of the category killer The MOM Test. And how did I hear about both books? Word of mouth.

I always have a great time talking to Jay. It’s surreal sometimes talking to someone who co-wrote a book that changed the course of my life. When I read MREA at 27 years old, it broke my brain. Showed me it was possible to build a business without drowning in the day-to-day operations. I ended up building a marketing agency on that model.

So I’m eternally grateful to Jay for nerding out on book launch tactics, if you’re not connected with Jay, fix that immediately!

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO - MicroFamous

Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service