Explore every episode of the podcast Queer Movie Podcast

Musician Norma Night joins Rowan to talk about how Disney villains, the women in the Pirates franchise, combat in Mulan and the whole cast of Buffy influenced her queerness.

Find Norma here: Instagram, TikTok, YouTube.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

The array of queer holiday movies is growing exponentially year on year, but what did Rowan and Jazza think of this lesbian romcom of the season? Join us to review Last Exmas...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like access to our Discord and monthly queer movie watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Luke, Han and Leila should have been a throuple in Star Wars, and there is enough cannon to prove it according to Isabel Moncola Daly. Listen to this any many more hot takes with Rowan!

Check out Isabel here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-daly-44ba9212b/

Support us on Patreon, and read Isabel's evidence doc at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast. For as little as $5 per month you gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/queermoviepod/

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Did you have a trans musical crime thriller on your 2024 bingo? This new movie from Jacques Audiard, stars Zoe Saldaña, Karla Sofía Gascón, Selena Gomez, Adriana Paz, Mark Ivanir, and Édgar Ramírez, tells the story of a feared cartel leader who enlists a lawyer to help her disappear and achieve her dream of transitioning into a woman. Listen on to hear Rowan and Jazza's takes on this new release.... 

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like access to our Discord and monthly queer movie watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

We review the new Documentary road trip trans educational movie film with comedian Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. How many times did did Jazza cry at this? place your bets now!

 

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like access to our Discord and monthly queer movie watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Hot Takes is back! Our guests bring us some spicy queer TV hot takes - but will they manage to persuade our host Rowan? This episode we're joined by the myth, the legend, writer and comedian Jess Durand, who give us THREE queer Downton Abbey hot takes... and Rowan hasn't seen a single episode... Check out Jess' work here: https://www.instagram.com/lejessdurand/?hl=en

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/queermoviepod/

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Let's have a very spoilery chit chat about everyone's new favourite queer teen show - Heartstopper! Jazza and Rowan dive into the new season, and chat aroace representation, queer teen sex ed, and how many times they cried during these episodes...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like access to our Discord and monthly queer movie watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

This episode Rowan and Jazza torture themselves by watching 2009 smashhit movie Brüno, about a gay Austrian TV presenter that really gives a horrifying glimpse into the wild queer landscape of mainstream 2000s pop culture...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like access to our Discord and monthly queer movie watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Hot Takes is back! Our guests bring us some spicy queer TV hot takes - but will they manage to persuade our host Rowan? This episode we're joined by award-winning author Aleema Omotoni with takes on Our Flag Means Death, Downton Abbey, and The Bear...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/queermoviepod/

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

This episode Rowan and Jazza cover new trans horror I Saw The TV Glow - about a pair of teens who become fans of a teen fantasy TV series, but also about the horrors of a closeted life and the inherent wasted experience of denying who you are...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like access to our Discord and monthly queer movie watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

We are joined by professional purple lesbian Ellen Jones as she tell us about about the movies that have impacted her queer identity - from Lady Penelope to Princess Mia! 

Find Ellen here: https://ellen-jones.co.uk/

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

This episode Rowan and Jazza cover Monkey Man, starring and directed by Dev Patel and showcasing some kick-ass hijra!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

We are joined by (best) friend of the podcast Tazmyn for a particularly choatic episode, as they tell us about about the movies that have impacted their queer identity! 

Find Tazmyn here: https://www.instagram.com/teabooksandtazmyn/

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

This week on the podcast we'll be talking about new queer tennis movie CHALLENGERS starring Zendaya, Mike Faist, and Josh O'Connor and directed by Luca Guadagnino!

With SPECIAL GUEST (because rowan is still sick) Ty! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPfeM2tm3T19uPf8pU3VHLg

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

This week on the podcast we'll be talking about new gay cowboy movie STRANGE WAY OF LIFE starring Pedro Pascal and Ethan Hawke and directed by Jazza's fave Pedro Almodóvar!

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

 

This week on the podcast we'll be talking about new lesbian movie DRIVE-AWAY DOLLS - an action-comedy crime caper starring Margaret Qualley, Geraldine Viswanathan, Beanie Feldstein, Colman Domingo, Pedro Pascal, Bill Camp, and Matt Damon!

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

 

Hot Takes is back! Our guests bring us some spicy queer movie hot takes - but will they manage to persuade our host Rowan? This episode we're joined by the creative team behind new queer movie "Growing Pains": Catherine Argyrople, Mariana Fabian, and Deanna Tarraza - and they bought their A-game, with takes on mean lesbians, questioning characters, and who should have topped in Brokeback Mountain...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/queermoviepod/

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

[REUPLOADED WITHOUT AUDIO ISSUES!] Super queer animed movies are few and far between - but a genre to explore nonetheless... and today we're tackling the Oscar-nominated action-adventure-fantasy tale of questionable villain - NIMONA!

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

We are edited by Corry!

 

This episode we're joined by Trevor Anderson, director of the new queer coming-of-age fim "Before I Change My Mind", to find out the movies that had an impact on his queer identity. Check out the trailer here: https://youtu.be/WcBwrD-NlVA

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/queermoviepod/

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

We are joined by author of queer YA romance "The No-Girlfriend Rule" Christen Randall - who tells us about the movies that have impacted their queer identity!

Find Christen and their writing here: https://www.bychristenrandall.com

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Our traditional yearly coverage of the Oscars is here! Today we're discussing the new Netflix biopic Rustin.

"Activist Bayard Rustin faces racism and homophobia as he helps change the course of Civil Rights history by orchestrating the 1963 March on Washington"

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

We are edited by Corry!

Let's talk bathtubs and Tories with our discussion of controversial new movie SALTBURN - did we love it, hate it, or just become overwhelmed by the weird little horny vibes? Listen to find out!

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

You can also support us by using our link for Squarespace: squarespace.com/queermovie.

We are edited by Corry!

Jazza and Rowan round up their favourite queer movies (and TV shows) of the last year - get ready for some new faves to add to your watchlist!

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

You can also support us by using our link for Squarespace: squarespace.com/queermovie.

We are edited masterfully by Sparkles*!

Rowan is back! This might be the Christmas episode, but we wanted to celebrate one of our favourite films from this year, and it's Bottoms, the gay highschool satire written by Emma Seligman and Rachel Sennott, also staring Sennott and Ayo Edebiri.

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

You can also support us by using our link for Squarespace: squarespace.com/queermovie.

We are edited masterfully by Sparkles*!

Another episode about a musical and another episode with someone called David! We review the celebration of musical theatre nerd culture that launched the career of Anna Kendrick and included one of the only cameos of Stephen Sondheim, Camp (2003). Find David Levitz here.

In which Jazza awkwardly uses the same gayest thing as last episode.

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

You can also support us by using our link for Squarespace: squarespace.com/queermovie.

We are joined this week by the amazing improv comedian, drag artist and muralist, David Puck! We talk about the absolutely bonkers comedy musical from A24, Dicks! The Musical.

Support independent queer media by joining our patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast/membership

You can also support us by using our link for Squarespace: squarespace.com/queermovie.

This episode was recorded during the SAG AFTRA strike, we will always support striking members of the creative industries, without whom we would not have the amazing media to talk about here.

We are edited by Sparkles!*

We are joined by brain box YouTuber extraordinaire, Jordan Harrod to talk about the media that made her queer. We talk about Kim Possible, fan fiction and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Find Jordan on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/c/jordanharrod

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code queermovie!

Thanks to new sponsor Ravensburger - check their puzzles out here: https://www.ravensburger.co.uk/en-GB

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This was recorded while SAG AFTRA and the WGA were striking in 2023, we support the striking workers as without them, we would have no media to build a podcasting empire around.

Find Mollie at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6jZvmJ7QJ_LAH-DpMpLf2Q

https://twitter.com/EnglishSimmer

https://www.twitch.tv/englishsimmer

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

It's queer Christmas! AKA Halloween, and so we are covering the queer-zoomer-slasher-comedy from 2022, Bodies Bodies Bodies! Rowan is out this week so the drag duo Nova and Olympia cohost.

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code queermovie!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Novympia and Jazza John

In a special guest episode we are joined by Mollie, The English Simmer, to talk about how the likes of The Sims, Pokemon, Life is Strange and Animal Crossing were formative gaming experiences for her growing up.

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code queermovie!

Thanks to new sponsor Ravensburger - check their puzzles out here: https://www.ravensburger.co.uk/en-GB

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

This was recorded while SAG AFTRA and the WGA were striking in 2023, we support the striking workers as without them, we would have no media to build a podcasting empire around.

Find Mollie at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6jZvmJ7QJ_LAH-DpMpLf2Q

https://twitter.com/EnglishSimmer

https://www.twitch.tv/englishsimmer

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Let's talk about the devisive Sam Levinson "black comedy" thriller ASSASSINATION NATION!

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code queermovie!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

Plus check out quality queerwear company NerdyKeppie... use coupon code "queermovie" for twenty percent off your first purchase!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

We were joined in the studio this episode by our wonderful friend (and queer music journalist) Taylor Behnke to talk about the songs that made her bi - from the gender exploration of scene kid subcultures, to muscians she only knew were queer years after first listening to them...

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain  using code queermovie!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

Check out Taylor's stuff here: https://www.taylorbehnke.com/

This episode was recording during the SAG/AFTRA and WGA strikes of 2023. Without the labor of the writers and actors currently on strike, many of the movies/shows we cover here wouldn't exist. QMP stands in full solidarity with those on strike - you can donate to the strike fund here: https://entertainmentcommunity.org/ 

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Let's have a very spoilery chit chat about everyone's new favourite show - Heartstopper! Jazza and Rowan dive into the new season, and chat aroace representation, dealing with tough subjects in teen media, and the origins of the show!

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain  using code queermovie!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

Plus check out quality queerwear company NerdyKeppie... use coupon code "queermovie" for twenty percent off your first purchase!

This episode was recording during the SAG/AFTRA and WGA strikes of 2023. Without the labor of the writers and actors currently on strike, many of the movies/shows we cover here wouldn't exist. QMP stands in full solidarity with those on strike - you can donate to the strike fund here: https://entertainmentcommunity.org/ 

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

Jazza finally gets to nerd out about gaming (gayming?), and the first AAA game to have an LGBTQ+ protagonist, The Last of Us 2. In this episode Rowan and Jazza talk about queer representation in games, and how queer characters are portrayed throughout the TLOU series of games and DLC.

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain  using code queermovie!

Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

This episode was recording during the SAG/AFTRA and WGA strikes of 2023. Without the labor of the writers and actors currently on strike, many of the movies/shows we cover here wouldn't exist. QMP stands in full solidarity with those on strike - you can donate to the strike fund here: https://entertainmentcommunity.org/ 

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

This week we're joined by Becky Albertalli - author of Simon vs the Homosapien Agenda (aka Love, Simon) - to talk about influential queer TV, movies, and characters in her life! Plus what it was like feeling forced to come out in the public eye...

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain  using code queermovie!

Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

This episode was recorded prior to the Hollywood strikes - without the labor of the writers and actors currently on strike, many of the movies/shows we cover here wouldn't exist. QMP stands in full solidarity with those on strike - you can donate to the strike fund here: https://entertainmentcommunity.org/ 

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

Let's talk about the iconic sapphic British rom com -  Imagine Me and You!

Head to https://www.squarespace.com/queermovie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain  using code queermovie!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

Plus check out quality queerwear company NerdyKeppie... use coupon code "queermovie" for twenty percent off your first purchase!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

Hot Takes is back! Headed by our very own Rowan Ellis and with guest Amanda The Jedi, movie commentator and critic, and Twilight superfan!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Kradl is a new podcast discovery platform where you can discover hidden gems and independent podcasts - check them out here!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!
New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 
- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast
- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 
- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production
- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John
- Editor: Julia Schifini
- Executive Producer: Multitude
- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

In which we talk about the gay Disney move which flew under our radar until a teacher in Florida got investigated by the PTA for showing it to her students. 

Take the Multitude survey: https://iteratehq.com/multitude/6463bbb5d58a250001ec8ab2 

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Plus check out quality queerwear company NerdyKeppie... use coupon code "queermovie" for twenty percent off your first purchase!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

This week we're joined by YouTuber and actual politician Mia Mulder to talk about influential queer TV, movies, and characters in her life! Check out her videos here: https://www.youtube.com/c/miamulder

Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

We're finally covering this cult classic starring Wesley Snipes, Patrick Swayze, and John Leguizamo as three New York City drag queens who embark on a road trip.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Plus check out quality queerwear company NerdyKeppie... use coupon code "queermovie" for twenty percent off your first purchase!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

We chat to Erik J. Brown - author of super queer YA books "All That's Left in the World" and the soon to be released "Lose You To Find Me" - about queer awakenings!

This episode was sponsored by .gay, the domain supporting our community. Head over to queermoviepodcast.gay to get a FREE .gay domain name of your choice for your own website or brand for 1-year.

We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

90s queer-awakening heartthrob Brendan Fraser stars as gay English lecturer Charlie in this controversial Oscar winning movie - let's talk Hollywood comebacks and that fat suit...

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

Hot Takes is back! Headed by our very own Rowan Ellis and with guest Eleanor Medhurst, the glamorous lesbian fashion historian from Dressing Dykes. This is a super fun one.

This episode was sponsored by .gay, the domain supporting our community. Head over to queermoviepodcast.gay to get a FREE .gay domain name of your choice for your own website or brand for 1-year.

We are also happy to be sponsored by the new book from Marie Blanchet, Skin Deep. Want some supernatural queer happy endings? Check out https://blanchetmarie.com/en/books/skin-deep/.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

Let's talk about (spoiler alert) Jazza's favourite movie of the year (and maybe of all time) - as we look at parallel universes, googly eyes, and lesbian supervillains!

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

Let's talk about M. Night Shyamalan's newest, and gayest, movie - were Rowan and Jazza held captive by its story, or just left wishing for the end of the world?

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Head over to queermoviepodcast.gay and get a FREE .gay domain name of your choice for your own website or brand courtesy of their registrar partner Porkbun—for 1-year!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

In which Princess dives deep into her bisexual awakening - from badly censored anime to Emma Watson's eyebrows!

Check out our Patreon - there are cool perks and you help support the podcast! https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Find Us Online

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

 

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

 

 

Cate Blanchett god nominated for Oscars Best Actress for this... and we might not agree. Jazza and Rowan spend an hour not really getting this movie. 

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

It was only a matter of time before we tackled Call Me By Your Name, one of the most influential, and subsequently controversial queer movies of the last decade.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ 

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

JAZZA:  Hello, everybody. Before we kick off this episode, just wanted to quickly thank the two patrons who are supporting us on our highest tier rainbow parent, Jennifer and Toby, you continue to be rather awesome. I also wanted to give a little bit of a content warning for today's episode we touch on. Amongst other things, grooming pedophilia, sexual assault and fetishized cannibalism. So some of our conversations get pretty heavy. If that ain't your thing, feel free to skip this one and come back for the next episode in a couple of weeks. Okay, for the rest of you. Enjoy.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—

ROWAN:  —and worst—

JAZZA:  —in LGBTQ plus cinema. One glorious moment a time. I thought your tone was quite pointed there, Rowan.

ROWAN:  Listen not to spoil what I thought about this movie, but I'm Rowan Ellis. 

JAZZA:  And I'm Jazza John.

ROWAN:  And each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA:  This episode genre is—

ROWAN AND JAZZA: Queer.

JAZZA:  Today—

ROWAN:  That was Autuer for those who needed the translation.

JAZZA:  Which is French for author. You're welcome. Today we're going to be talking about one of the most renowned and somewhat infamous. We'll talk about it queer movies of the past 10 years. Call Me By Your Name.

ROWAN:  But before we fuck a peach, I guess. Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA:  So the gayest thing I've done is for once has nothing to do with my sex life.

ROWAN:  [shocked]

JAZZA:  I know. I have been playing the role for the past three weeks of the model, queer family member who has just been sitting in the middle of all of the arguments and telling everybody to be emotionally intelligent and love each other again, it is a stereotype that the queers step into I guess.

ROWAN:  Do the supporting role, the supporting character in the movie of like

JAZZA:  Of straight—of straight relatives. Yes, exactly.

ROWAN:  Amazing.

JAZZA:  And that was just very much my life for the past few weeks. I love my family. I love them sincerely.

ROWAN:  Yeah, keep—keep yeah, go—what's that you keep— keep saying it, and will believe. 

JAZZA:  I'm just letting the ellipses hang.

ROWAN:  That's it?

JAZZA:  Yeah. How about—how about you?

ROWAN:  Um, so I went on a little writing retreat, and I wrote for like, a week with some friends and I wrote so much of my gay that little, little book that I'm writing. It was very fun, and very gay. I haven't actually read over any of the stuff I've written yet, so it might be bad, but I'm gonna pretend like it's fine.

JAZZA:  I'm sure some of it is. And I'll tell you in a loving way, though.

ROWAN:  Yeah, I—I there's a reason why I haven't sent it to you yet. Well, so I also—it's like a sci-fi. So I feel like maybe I'll end up calling a character Jazza just for like the fun vibes, the Sci Fi vibes.

JAZZA:  Rowan, do you not know this? I—every one of our friends that has written a fiction book. I have done my utmost to make them name a character after me. So if our straight friends aren't going to name their children after me, then all of our queer friends are going to name one of the characters in their inevitable books after me. That's how I'm gonna become immortal.

ROWAN:  Yeah, and what I might do is you know, maybe try and disguise it by just changing like one letter or something. So maybe the character would just be called Jizzie.

JAZZA:  I knew— I knew you were so rude, so cliche. 

ROWAN:  Oh my gosh, but yeah, I'll definitely make it an extremely cool, cool character. And not some like lame old man.

JAZZA:  Great. Love that for us. For me—

[theme]

JAZZA:  As I mentioned before the break this film, though, celebrated has seen its fair share of controversies since its release. We are going to do our best before we dive into the plot to touch on them and provide—provide some well needed context, I think.

ROWAN:  We will then be reviewing the plot as always, splitting the film into three acts, of course we always do. If somehow you've managed to not see this movie since it came out. You know, go and watch it before listening to rest of the episode, unless like me, you had zero plans of watching it until your podcast co-host like, physically wrestled you into it. In which case just what—just listen to this episode instead.

JAZZA:  I think it a—I think it was—it was—it was just about time, you know. The first one back in the new year I felt like it was a good time.

ROWAN: I guess.

JAZZA:  Exactly. So, without further ado, let's maybe read a book a bit, then listen to some fall asleep by the pond, and then maybe contemplate my own way before having sex with my childhood friend on a dusty mattress and review, Call Me By Your Name.

ROWAN:  Wow.

[theme]

ROWAN:  Okay, so the first bit of context that we—I want to talk about is a contexes of something that's within the movie itself, which is the age gap, I'd say in inverted commas, romance. So this is kind of part of the controversy around the movie. I will confess that I have basically, the reason why I hadn't seen the film was because just the very concept of this really icks me out. And so I was I am particularly want to watch this happening on screen. And so I also haven't looked at a lot of like the discourse, commentary and stuff on it. So this is—what I'm about to say is some information from the film, and then my thoughts about it. So the information from the film is one of the characters Elio play by Timothy Chamalet,is 17. And the other character, Oliver played by Armie Hammer is 24. When they were playing those roles, Armie Hammer was a lot older than 24, he was in his 30s. But similarly, Timmy was 20/21, depending on reports, the age that he was when he filmed this varies, but he was wasn't a teenager. However, it is also I think, sort of, we need to point out that, in terms of how it looks, Timmy does look like a teenager, he looks like a boy. And Armie Hammer does look his 30 something years old. So there is the knowledge within the summary of this movie that one of them is 17, one of them is 24. And then there is the visuals that are presented in the movie, as well. And both of these things, I think probably have a—will have an impact on the people who are watching it and how they interpret the movie. And this is at the age gaps scene in queer movies is a thing. I don't think there's any denying that. At age gaps and queer relationships are also a thing. And so I think that on the one hand, you can say, well, age gaps in general in relationships happen, showing them on screen, it's just showing something that happens in reality. So gay movies, like Blue Is the Warmest Color etc, etc, have this as a trope. And it to such an extent that there are almost more lists of queer movies without age gap in like letterbox and recommendations and they are with, it seems like a lot of people are trying to escape from it. But I think the reason why this movie in particular has that controversy element to it, is the 17 year old element that one of them is like a minor. And although you—I'm sure could argue that technically, legally the age of consent do,do,do and for my understand it was 14 at the time in 1983 in Italy, that a lot of these age gaps that we talked about in other movies are between adults who have an age gap, who might be more than this, but they are two adults. And therefore I think a lot of people would say that there are some differences between the relationship and like the favor for example, between Emma Stone's character and uh— 

JAZZA:  Olivia Coleman.

ROWAN:  —Olivia Coleman. Yeah.

JAZZA:  My god.

ROWAN:  Dear Lord. The memory issues really going—

JAZZA:  Cancel her now.

ROWAN:  Cancel me. Yeah, between Olivia Coleman and Emma Stone, for example, will probably be seen in a different way because of that. Because I think with age gaps, it's not just the arbitrary idea of like, those are just two numbers with numbers in between them, I think it is the idea of a difference in experience as well as age, that can heighten an age gap into an area that might feel predatory. And I think that that is especially interesting to discuss when we're talking about queer relationships uh in media, because predatory stereotypes are such a huge part of the kind of stereotypes around queer people, right? It's like, if you look at back, with section 28, or with Anita Bryant, the idea of like, queer people are inherently predatory and dangerous to have around children. And all this kind of stuff feels like it adds an extra layer of complication on to this kind of story. I would say that from my point of view within this film, and I know that the book is from Elio's point of view. And I think the movie also gives the story to us from the point of view of this teenager. And so I can understand there being an element of like, the music, it's very romantic, for example, because we're in this character's point of view. And from his point of view, it's like the most romantic thing to happen. And it's this like, clandestine relationship and he's—it's because his burgeoning sexuality and all this kind of stuff. And I also think that just because something is in a film, or in a book, it doesn't mean it's being endorsed necessarily by the author or the writers or the director. However, I do think that all of the marketing and a lot of the framing around this movie does want to paint it as this big romantic journey for this character and this big relationship. So that includes the music, that includes the marketing, that includes like the conversation with the understanding parent to kind of like lampshade the idea of like, hey, audience, you might think this is relationships a bit dodgy, but this parent, his own parent says it's fine. So actually, I think you're fine, it's fine. So yeah, I kind of came into this thinking, trying to look at it with an open mind, but kind of thinking like, at the very most it's going to—I'm going to just find it a bit icky. But I have to admit, when I was watching the movie, I like actively were seeing stuff that looked like grooming to me, or that had issues with consent on both sides. And so for me, it was like, less of just the age gap as a general concept and more of specifically, like a minor and an adult in a relationship in which it was very unhealthy, but was being portrayed as this like, sort of Romeo and Juliet, like secret beautiful love, like fleeting, one summer, you know, vibe that I didn't necessarily—didn't necessarily vibe with in that sort of way. I was seeing it more was like, oh, this is like everything this—this character is doing is—is clearly he is a child. And he's like cuddling with his parents. And he's like shaving his non existent mustache. And he's like, being really bratty. And then there's, like, this adult character who's very confident and very, like self assured and, and it just felt very strange to me. I don't know how you felt about that element of the film Jazza. But that was—we sort of assign ourselves to listen, I think we've mentioned this before, sort of elements of the context that we each want to dive into, and then the other one kind of probably presented to each other in the moment. So I don't know how you felt about this Jazza from your perspective.

JAZZA:  Yeah, I remember, this was the second time that I have watched this movie. And I remember the first time having a very similar reaction to the one that you just did. So I was a little bit fed up with the like yet another large age gap representation. One where it was a like, Chalamet's character is very codified as kind of like a young child especially at the beginning of the movie. We've kind of like all of the things that he does, like his brattiness as well as like the—like the—the shaving the mustache, I think is kind of like one of the—the clear things of like this really segments his boyhood. The visuals as well I will go with you of Hammer and Chalamet, as the—I don't care what the says, this is a romantic movie.seeing those two as romantic leads, it is quite jarring with the way that they look because it looks like a fully grown man and a boy. That said, a lot of the—a lot of the background work that I did on thi, on Call Me By Your Name, span off of a really great video essay that Lola Sebastian did, which I will link in the show notes. And I will encourage anybody who really, really wants a thorough, thoughtful, nuanced, deep dive into this movie and its context. And the way that kind of like all of these, especially the controversies intersect, how the Internet has talked about them, I'd encourage you to go and watch that video essay. She was really, really good at articulating the way that this film seems very much to be. And I think one of the intentions of it, and you can see it in the way that a lot of the artistic shots and the way that it's filmed and the—the score as well, how this is meant to be an idealized version of a memory that Timothy, Timothy Chalamet. That Chalamet's character is having. I think when you read this as the memory that Chalamet has of this romance that he had, as he was growing up, I think that that contextualizes what I think it is in lots of different ways. I—I wouldn't go as far as saying that it looks like grooming because I think that Hammers character has a lot of vulnerabilities and in many ways seems a lot less, like even less experienced than Chal—than Chalamet's character in many—in many ways his innocence.

ROWAN:  I don't think that, that precludes grooming, right? Because there's a load of stuff he does. Where it's like this is I think—I think as well if you're going to argue that it is a rose tinted, like version of the memory. You can also say hey, there isn't behaviors that he's exhibiting where he's like getting him alone and taking them on special trips, that only they get to go on. And then like all of this kind of stuff that's like textbook grooming, that then I could—I could just as easily see that being twisted to be like okay, so all of those things where he's like, no, we shouldn't, it will be too naughty of us. Like seen by him as this like, oh, you know, he was just—he was looking out for me. He—he said we could wait until I was 16. Like he said, we would wait until I was 16 kind of energy, that I think is a bit touche. I—I would argue that the reading of it being his memory holds way more weight, if they had kept the canon of the book, which is that it is a memory. The fact there's no like framing device used in the movie, I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable giving you that generosity of like—

JAZZA:  Sure. It's less obvious. Yeah.

ROWAN:  There's no point is even having a ration at the beginning. Like a lot—even a line of him being like, it was like, so long ago, that hot summer in 1983. Like there's none of that. So I do think it's from his point of view—

JAZZA:  Fair enough.

ROWAN:  But I wouldn't necessarily say that the— that the movie feels like it's obviously from the point of view of someone grown up looking back, because there's no framing device that suggests that to me.

JAZZA:  I do think I—I do think that that is there in the way that it is shot. And I do think that it's there. I do think it's there. But I will agree that it isn't obvious. And I think that the grooming stuff. Yeah, I think it—I think that there's no getting away from it. I think it is problematic. However, the second time that I watched this, and I—and like I said I had a lot of the same kind of hang ups that you had. However, the second time watching this movie through, I ended up really identifying with Chalamet's character in a way that I never did, the first time that I watched it, because I too, was a teenage gay, and I too had relationships with older men. And there's a lot of it and like, like you said in real life, queer relationships, larger age gaps are more common for a variety of reasons, not least, because there's fewer of us, not least because very often, we don't have the kind of guidance from elder figures in families or whatever that may be we turned to those who are queer and older in our communities, and sometimes that forms relationships—romantic relationships, but I saw a lot of kind of like the emotions of Chalamet's character, like reflected in the experience that I had of kind of like that. First, kind of like almost fearful, like, do you dive into this? That's the central question. Like, do you—like, do you act on these feelings? That's the central question of the movie.

ROWAN:  See, I think that is the tricky thing about around the movie. It's like, there isn't—you can't say that this is some unrealistic, like weird thing that's been conjured from the mind of a—of the director, you know what I mean? Like—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —there is a lot of reality going on in here. And I think that it's—the very fact that like, both of us have a different interpretation of what's going on here isn't necessarily a film, I feel like has a particular thesis to it, where they literally say what they want you to think about this relationship and whether it's good or bad, or healthy or unhealthy or whatever. And I think you can read into it, and say, okay, well, this could be evidence of them, saying that it's meant to be some kind of epic romance, or this isn't an element of saying that it's unhealthy or whatever. But I think for me, it was just the experience of watching it was like, oh, this is just so like, I just have like a very visceral reaction to it. But in the same way, there will be people who will see themselves in these characters or like in this particular dynamic that will have an equally visceral reaction that's based on whatever emotions they have about their own experiences that run parallel to this as well.

JAZZA:  And I think that it's a bi— it's a— it is a nuanced story, that we are allowed to have kind of like the—these different and kind of like complex emotions about. I do not think that it is necessarily a, a great romantic epic. I think in many ways, actually, this is more of a tragedy. 

ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. 

JAZZA:  Than it is a romance.

ROWAN:  Oh 100%.

JAZZA:  Especially with the way that it ends. But yeah, just so that we don't spend too much time talking about the age gap thing. I think this is a—a good point for me to bring in some of the—the other background—

ROWAN:  The other background—

JAZZA:  —of this.

ROWAN:  —that's come about. Jazza, tell me what you were researching this week.

JAZZA:  I read a really long Vanity Fair article about Armie Hammer, whose name is Armand.

ROWAN:  Oohhh.

JAZZA:  Did you know that?

ROWAN:  No, I didn't.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  What a fun— wha—what a nice way of you stalling what you're about to talk about Jazza, allegedly.

JAZZA:  And it's still a allegedly. So one of the big burdens that hangs around the neck of this movie, is the fact that Armie Hammer is one of the two leads at it. And Armie Hammer was one of the people who all maybe had a bit of a consequential pandemic, shall we say? So Armie Hammer during the pandemic, there were lots of allegations against him. Those have ended up, it's important to say not being pursued in court. But then there were lots of leaked messages from women who had dated Armie Hammer, where it seemed that he was at least role playing. And there were alleged conversations, face to face that he had about this around cannibalism. Now, to be clear, the—the kink of cannibalism does not mean that Armie Hammer is a cannibal.

ROWAN:  We're not saying Armie Hammer has eaten anybody, just to make it clear.

JAZZA:  We're just to— just to make it clear. So since the allegations of sexual abuse and the revelations of his alleged kink around cannibalism came out, Armie has had a rough couple of years and has been—was dropped from his agency and dropped from a number of projects, even being completely edited out of at least one of them at time of us recording. The fact that Armie Hammer plays the role of the older person in this big age gap relationship also makes it very difficult watch. And I can understand why this makes it a very difficult watch for many people. Armie Hammer is also kind of like, it's somewhat of a problematic person anyway, based on the fact that he kind of like rode the wave of like pseudo feminism, and from being from a rich family was then able to basically got his way into Hollywood through all of these kinds of like indie projects and stuff like that. So that is what I have been reading.

ROWAN:  Oh that is such fun. I also think it's very important to know that since this, Timothy has been in accountable movie, which I think is just the wildest turn of events. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, I heard just to spite Armie Hammer.

ROWAN:  Just to spite Armie Hammer. And it's really—so this is, I think, really interesting, to—like so relevant to this movie. But just as a thing that's been obviously I feel like it'd be strange for us not to talk about this, when it's such a huge part of like, what has happened since around like the mythos of this movie, is the fact that like the sexual abuse allegations, like the—the cannibalism kink kind of sense that used to sensationalize, what were like, actual serious allegations, because as Jazza said, listen, if you like to do dirty talk about eating someone's toes, then like, all power to you like, that's all fine. As long as everything consensual, it's great. I think it's that lack of the consent issue, that is the issue. But also, I imagine that Timothy is probably quite relieved that he is—

JAZZA:  The sequel isn't being made anymore.

ROWAN:  —that the sequel isn't being made anymore. And I think a lot of people are kind of like, oh, nope, this isn't a vibe. And so I think that it's something that is always kind of going to be attached to the legacy of this movie. And that is a part of me that, that is like actually, probably these allegations were even unconsciously in the back of my mind. We're watching it now, and I don't know if I would have had a different like visceral experience watching it before then or whether it would have been the same for me. 

JAZZA:  And even—and even outside of this. There's one more thing that 

ROWAN:  Okay, another. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, there's one more thing that I think that we should consider here. So the Vita of the original book, Andre Aciman is also become a somewhat controversial figure. He did an interview in a Air Catalonia, which is a Spanish publication, saying, and I quote a translation here, I see 12 year old girls, and I find them attractive, which understandably—

ROWAN:  Isn't good. 

JAZZA:  Bad.

ROWAN:  Bad in fact, some might say. And I think as well, like this is—this is—this is one of those things where it's like, okay, if we're going to be talking about the idea of authorial intent, and all that kind of stuff, like all of this stuff does get messy, and it is on one level that it is like an intellectual exercise of like, can you separate the art from the artist? I think it's also a practical exercise of do you want to financially support someone who behaves in a certain way or, or think certain things. And then there's the emotional idea of like, you're not necessarily logically thinking about it, you just have an emotional visceral reaction, whether negative or positive to certain stuff. And I think those things are all very complicated and mixed together, in a way that means that it's compli—It's complicated essentially. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 100%.  And like, you can approach this or at least try to approach this with like a depth of the other thing. I think it is, I think with  Call Me By Your Name, it is possible—for me anyway, it is possible to watch this without kind of like it then being something that ties wit— ties back to that, I think it has artistic merit and artistic context, without the stuff around and stuff around Armie Hammer tainting it. However, I think it's still important that you know that those are things that are swimming around in the primordial soup of what happened when society met this movie. And if you don't kind of like acknowledge those things and understand those things, that means that you don't understand the wider context of kind of like how this movie fits into our society properly.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Of course you can not—you can—you can enjoy the art separate from that. But then once that art is into intersecting with everything else, then there's—let's just say background reading that you have to do. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  That's quite a lot of it.

ROWAN:  And I think it's also very legitimate to be like, actually, nope. 

JAZZA:  Oh, sure.

ROWAN:  And also, but—but—but like, for example, the fact of like, hey, you can have this source material, which is this book, and you come at it from a—the point of view of the gay director who directed this movie and be like, okay, I see something in this experience of my experience, as a boy having an experience like Elio did, and I would like to reflect that very particular nuanced experience on film, in a way that is, since we're talking about the other genre, I guess, within this movie, with an authorial intent that comes less from the original writer of the book, and more from the, like a queer creator of the movie. But again, all of this is very complicated. And I think that like, this is one of the reasons why I think this movie is interesting to talk about, because there—there are so many ways to interpret it. And so many external things and internal things in the movie that are, I think, for a lot of people aren't even necessarily logically explainable as to how they feel about it, whether it is because of their own personal experience, or their experience of of this in other movies that makes them either more used to it, or more heightened ly aware of the potential problematic nature. But having said that I guess, shall we talk about the movie itself?

JAZZA:  Shall we actually do that now?

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Let's go.

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JAZZA:  Hello, friends Jazza here for the ad read. As returning listeners will know, we are part of Multitude, a collective of creators who make stuff for your ears, as in audio, not like so anything like that. This week, we want to give a shout out to one of our sibling shows, Games and Feelings. Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games, join question keeper, Eric Silver, and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. Since you know, you got to play games with other people. And we're talking every single type of game. Let's go, video games of all stripes, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, d&d podcasts, the companies and workers that make these games. Anything you can think of really. Questions will include how do you convince people who have only played Monopoly, to play the new board game that you grabbed at the game shop? Is an escape room a good third date? And what makes video games cozy? And are there any recommendations? Eric and his friends answer any and all questions as long as they're games related. If you like what you hear and want to level up your emotional intelligence stat, subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes every Friday. We're also continuing to be supported by Squarespace who can help you to buy a domain and create a website. We have in the past talked about how we use Squarespace extensively as professional internet people for website creation, giving us access to analytics. So we know where everybody is clicking through from, and the creation of email campaigns, so that we can, you know, bypass the algorithm to get to all of our followers. And also, we use it as a convenient way to be able to connect all of our social media in one place. We know that you hear a lot of your favorite creators, podcasts, media's, offering their discount codes, but it would really help us out at the Queer Movie Podcast if you use us and supported the Queer Movie Podcast. All you need to do, to do that is go to squarespace.com/queermovie. And when you're set up to make all your digital dreams come true, you can use the offer code, Queer Movie, that's all one word, to save 10 percentage points of your first purchase of a website or domain. Remember to go to squarespace.com/queermovie. Now back to the show.

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ROWAN:  Okay, I actually have some titles for the parts for this one.

JAZZA:  I will happily see to use let's go.

ROWAN:  Because we have previously in the last few episodes, it has just been Jazza. So part one, I have named Dance Like No One is Watching. Oh God, Why Am I Watching. Which could also be the party and its aftermath. In fact, again, there's a few parties and their aftermaths in here, which you know, longtime listeners of the show will know is a thing that queer movies do have. And we saw it in the summer of 1983 and skinny boy Tommy is you know speaking French and being topless in northern Italy. Classic. Essentially Timothy playing Elio is on holiday with his parents who are academics and his father as an archaeologist/digger, rapper, dredger of old things Professor man, and his mum is a posh woman. And—

JAZZA:  Yeah, just a—just a multi lingual, a polyglot. Sometimes French, sometimes American who knows?

ROWAN:  Can speak German—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —very talented family. And we see the kind of inciting incident is that Oliver? This guy who is going to be spending the summer with them, this academic they seem to take in academics every year of the summer, comes in exhausted, collapses on the bed of Elios room, because Elios has been moved next door. And essentially we find out that this guy is staying for the summer. And Elio is a—is a boy from a very talented family who also is very talented. He's a music boy, and loves to—loves to be an angsty teenager who plays music except when his parents want him to.

JAZZA:  Exactly. Um he's literally sitting there transcribing Bach, which I can't imagine.

ROWAN:  Pretentious little 17 year old.

JAZZA:  Pretentious little shit.  Can you imagine being 17 and actually being like him.

ROWAN:  He's like the word precocious in the dictionary you look at it's a picture of Elio.

JAZZA:  So we end up getting to know Oliver a little bit. He wears a style of David and we seem to wha—were explicitly told by Oliver when he talks about his family, how strict, how much more strict his family are. Elios family seemed to be perfect, right? Pretty much in every single way—they—the way that they kind of like encourage their son they—the way that they kind of like are accepting of the moments that he has over the summer. They seem like a really clutch tight knit group who are very affectionate with one another. At the very beginning, Elio is almost repulsed by Oliver. And I think that this is— the way that this is shown is not only by kind of like the brashness of his Americaness, and how confident and outgoing he is and how terribly he dances. That's like nobody is watching. But it's also and I love noticing this theme, the second time that I watched it. I think that a lot of that disgust at the beginning, especially at the beginning is shown through food. So the way that Oliver downs all of the juice, and like chugs it really, really quickly and 

ROWAN:  Smashing that egg in such a gross way.

JAZZA:  He like crushes this hard—the soft boiled egg.

ROWAN:  He's such a strong man.

JAZZA:  It is kind of like—So it kind of like cascades everywhere and all of the yolk goes everywhere. And it's quite grotesque. And we also hear Oliver talk about how, oh, if I have another one, then I just have another, another, I just can't help myself. 

ROWAN:  Just can't help yourself huh, Oliver. Interesting way of phrasing that Oliver. 

JAZZA:  And we um—

ROWAN:  He's just so American. He's just so loud. He's just constantly like any says he calls, he calls Elio man all the time. Like every time he talks to me, he's like, huh thanks, man. Thanks—thanks, man. Yeah, man. And I'm like, Thanks, childs. Thanks, boy.

JAZZA:  Big, big—big redIt's a big red flag for me actually, I'm gonna do just for a second because I was talking to a guy on Grindr just last night, and we were talking about our likes and dislikes. 

ROWAN:  We're talking about the politics of Call Me By Your Name. And—

JAZZA:  No, no, no. We were talking about the highlights and lowlights of so I am his latest album. And after every single thing he was like, yeah, I think that this hell is really some of her best work, bro. I'm like, do not—

ROWAN:  Bro me.

JAZZA:  —do not bro me, especially when talking about a queer artist like Anyway, and this like grotesqueness is obviously something that you could tie into the eventual really disgusting scene in fucking the page, where it's like, see—

ROWAN:  It's so sticky.

JAZZA:  So sticky, the sugars crystal was gonna get everywhere. 

ROWAN:  And he didn't even like wipe— anyway, well—we'll get to 

JAZZA:  Anyway—

ROWAN:  I think it's also very important to note here, for anyone who is a member of the Patreon not to plug the Patreon, but we do watch a lot of queer movies every month. And we talk about queer movies a lot over there. And we have a list now we've got like a bi—I think someone's made a bingo card of like, gay stuff and movies and bikes. Bikes are very gay everyone.

JAZZA:  Bikes are gay.

ROWAN:  Bikes are so gay. And I think this movie is like one of the top contenders for evidence for exhibit A bikes are gay, because all they bloody do in this movie is bike around and fuck those are—I mean, I guess some other stuff happens. But mainly, I feel like I could just put the bullet point, they bike around because bikes are gay, and it would be like a solid half hour of this movie at least. So while they are biking around on their gay little bikes, a bunch of stuff happens. So for example, they have this conversation about Judaism, about the idea that Elio seen Oliver's necklace and comments about the idea of like, besides my family, you're probably the only other dude to set foot in this town. Kind of creating this interesting sort of connection between them. We also get this conversation around like, what does he do during the summer, are we just like reads, and writes, and swims and apparently, for 17 year old, that's a terrible summer. Can't relate. And then we also have these interesting moments of contrast. So like Oliver takes Elio to this bar where these older men are playing cards. And Elio, like, joins them at the table, where he's like, clearly the youngest one trying to like fit it.

JAZZA:  But he's kind of sat back right. I think that—this was another way of like framing him as a child.

ROWAN:  He brings the chair in woods, whereas the very—it cuts to a scene with all of these other teenagers where he has pulled the chair away from the table, and it's like sitting apart. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's contrasting the old men and the young teens. And then you realize that Oliver is with the teens also playing with the teens. And I'm like Oliver, please just stop. And then that's when Oliver gives him this massage. And I'm like, Oliver, please stop it. You're too stressed, relax a little. Hey, isn't he too stressed, which is also the moment where he like shaves his nonexistent mustache during this section. And so it's basically just like a lot of interesting moments of like, Elio feeling like this summer is him becoming older, that he is—he's feeling separate from the immaturity of these like teenagers in his life, as he feels like he's more in line with his parents generation, these old man paying cars, this new fascinating guy who he's starting to like a little bit more, who's come into the picture, who's willing to spend time with him. And at this point, like he's still a little bit like, oh, I don't want to like he's grumpy about playing the piano with his dad. Like his parents are saying like, oh, you'll learn to like him as he's kind of making these little complaints about Oliver, and how he doesn't really like him. And then Elio obviously scoffs off this section of soul searching and growth by having a little masturbate, having a little bate. Classic teen boys shit gets interrupted by Oliver who comes in without knocking, very rude house guests. But that is—that is just smashing up eggs and knocking on doors. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, piercing really loudly with the door open and slammed. Yeah, all of that kind of stuff.

ROWAN:  And so we also have Oliver inviting Elio to come—to come swimming with me. Elio obviously brings music sheets with him because he's a little fucking nerd. And Oliver hilariously swims laps in a pool which is so tiny—

JAZZA:  Which is literally—

ROWAN:  One breaststroke, and he's on the other side of the pool 

JAZZA:  The—the pool is literally about two and a half meters long, so he like pushes off and that is the other end of the pool.

ROWAN:  So funny.

JAZZA:  Most pointless laps on the face of the planet.

ROWAN:  And then we also got like—basically just a lot of moments of them bonding in various ways and a lot of the time over like kind of intellectual stuff like the music. You know, Oliver complements him on playing the guitar, Elio immediately goes inside to play the piano and they have an argument about piano that I don't know enough about music to understand.

JAZZA:  I didn't—I didn't understand this at all. And I hated this scene, because I thought they both come across as I came across as absolute assholes.

ROWAN:  Classic. And then he—Elio writes in his diary about he's like, dear diary.

JAZZA:  Yeah, 

ROWAN:  I don't think he likes me, 

JAZZA:  I was too harsh with him. Why did—Yeah. Oh no.

ROWAN:  like over and over again, like the child that he is, and then also at one point I've just written Elio bullies the dying fish, which is just like an old man.

JAZZA:  I haven't even thought of this scene. Why the hell was the 

ROWAN:  Elio an old man comes to show Elio the fishes he's like clearly just caught and they're gonna like cook that night. And Elio just like looks dead into this fish's eyes, that's like gasping for water, I guess, and just mimics it and I'm like, wow, Elio, that poor fish in its last moments, just has some precocious teenager taking the piss.

JAZZA:  In everything that happened in this movie. And it's a long movie. I cannot believe that—that is a thing that has stayed in your mind.

ROWAN:  It was just this poor—he was like, oh, you've caught the fish. And I was like, oh, nice a fish. And then it was just a close up on a dying fish. I was like someone put that fish back in the water, stop. And then we have the dance. The party that I named this part of after, which is just an awkward outdoor disco, where Elio sort of hangs out with some of his fellow teens. There's different table because he's different and an old soul. We're watching Oliver kiss his childhood best friend. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Who again is also a teenager. And dances like a dad. I put here Oliver dances like a dad, Elio smokes like a dad. And then clearly he's so affected by this. So he's like, you know what I'm gonna do, fuck a girl. And so he goes swimming with Marzia, I think her name is Marzia.

JAZZA:  Marzia.

ROWAN:  And the next morning is like dad, I almost had sex. And then his dad's like, why didn't you cock, and then Oliver's like yeah, try again, later loser. Verbatim. And he then he does. That's—that's—that's exactly a quote—quotes from the movie.

JAZZA:  You cock. That I ha—I have great umbrage with the sex scene, especially with Marzia. Not only does poor Marcia deserve better, and she—she needs to get the fuck over, Elio, come on girl, but also their fucking on a very dirty, very dusty mattress in an attic somewhere.

ROWAN:  He love—that boy loves to do it outside, or in a building where you can see the sky.

JAZZA:  Yeah. 100% and is surrounded by dust and microbes that are probably going to give you a venereal disease. 

ROWAN:  Not good.

JAZZA:  So good luck—and it's the 80s, Penicillin didn't exist then. So they're all fucked.

ROWAN:  Yeah, of course, the 1980s.

JAZZA:  That's just science, Rowan.

ROWAN:  So basically, to sum up—I don't know how I'm explaining this in such a long winded way. Because basically all that happens is that they bike around and then they fuck, but they go on an archaeology trip. And they call each other by each other's names. That's the title of the movie.

JAZZA:  They haven't even—they haven't eve—you're skipping

ROWAN:  No, when they're swimming. This is before—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —they didn't only— this isn't the sexy bit. This is when they're in the water when they're swimming and you hear them shouting each other's names.

JAZZA:  Oh, I didn't even 

ROWAN:  And I was like, yeah, that we're getting to the part of the movie. Basically, this one Elio is extremely sexually frustrated, puts all of his shorts on his head, get on all fours on the bed. I'm like, please stop, sir. But only does it for about two seconds. I'm like commit to the bit, and uh—and then it's act two, and essentially more of the same.

[theme]

JAZZA:  What is your act two called, Rowan?

ROWAN:  Call me by your name, That's the title of the movie.

JAZZA:  I called this fucking people in fruits.

ROWAN:  Yes, that's also true. This is where the World War Memorial thing came in. Which I think you had some notes on.

JAZZA:  Yeah, so the—the tension of this scene I really, really enjoy because it's earlier on in the film. We've heard Elio's mother the polyglot who we're not really sure what she does, live translates a book about a knight and a princess. And how the knight is terrified to say anything with the princess that he's in love with, like, do you say something, or do you die? That this clearly sits with Elio because he's building up all of these emotions, as we've seen with all of the doodling, with all of kind of like the storytelling of the movie, with the subtlety, and the subtlety of him putting Armie Hammer pants over his head. 

ROWAN:  Very Subtle.

JAZZA:  Yeah, very subtle. And so he ends up deciding to do something about it. And I love the building of the tension, the amount of silence that fills the space of the scenes I think is really fantastically well done. So they're —they're watching looking at this from World War One. And he says to Oliver, there are some things I don't know stuff about. Oliver says like what, and just with the words oh, you know what? We all know that talking about sexy fun bomb time. And so—

ROWAN:  Direct quote from the movie.

JAZZA:  Direct quote from the movie. So they end up in like this—this tension builds Oliver says we can't speak of such things. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Elio then takes Oliver to his secret spot, which—

ROWAN:  and then he takes all over to his secret spot, if you know what I mean.

JAZZA:  You are fucking chaotic today, Rowan.

ROWAN:  Listen, you should have known when you made me watch this bloody movie that I was gonna come to you with this nonsense.

JAZZA:  So they rolled around on the grass a little bit. It's not quite wrestling, which is 

ROWAN:  Another classic trope. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, I don't think you can quite mark this off on your bingo card. But they end up making out, and Oliver reinforces this thing of I want to be good. I don't want to be bad. We haven't done anything naughty yet. hehe. Tehehe. And then—

ROWAN:  Elio's nose starts bleeding at dinner from the stress of dealing with heterosexual bickering is what I've put in my notes. And so again, like there's another moment where Oliver goes to check on him, rubs his feet, kisses them. Elio's mom is like, do you like Oliver and Elio's like, um, what did he tell you, did he tell you that I liked him. And she notices that he's wearing a Star of David. And it's like, oh, I think the parents might be figuring it out. I wonder what's going to happen. Spoiler alert, this isn't the like third act. Don't. You can't see him. But daddy I love him. Like that's not the what the drama is gonna be.

JAZZA:  I was watching Nerdwriter do his video about this. And there is—

ROWAN:  Actuall research.

JAZZA:  There was really great—

ROWAN:  Jazza John over here. 

JAZZA:  —and it was really great commentary on the fact that you're always—and I was also thinking this, there was—this building tension of when are they going to be found out? So there's—they mentioned the housekeeper was really diligent, she might notice. And there's the worry that like, especially the parents, we keep on getting seated that they're noticing stuff, with like slight glances and looks. And we— like I have an underlying like tension and uneasiness when you see this because I expect there to be the low point in the just before the third act to be they get found out. And then there was consequences to that.

ROWAN:  The difference is I wish there had been, but unfortunately. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. Yeah.

ROWAN:  Okay.

JAZZA:  That was, yeah, we get it. There's part of me that really likes the fact that, that never happens in a scenario like this, in a queer story that there isn't—it—it like, it's not like they're pretending that they're in a world where homophobia doesn't exist, especially in 1980s, Italy. And they are having to be kind of, like, clandestine about it. But that is never a fear, that kind of like comes to fruition. The fear is them not being together. And they managed to avoid that by acting on it.

ROWAN:  Only just.

JAZZA:  Only, only just. So they are, they end up being together for kind of like, a couple of weeks, and they're lamenting, oh my God, how annoying that we didn't roll around naked earlier. And eventually, this is where I have the beginning of the third act, where the parents end up suggesting that they go on holiday together, essentially. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. I mean, we haven't mentioned, but this is also the section where he fucks a peach.

JAZZA:  Oh, my God.

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

JAZZA:  So how did you engage with the peach?

ROWAN:  I was just like, get some wet wipes, at least. Also don't like leave it on your bedside table when you take a nap.

JAZZA:  Yeah, it is kind of disgusting. But there's also lots of people who have done loads of disgusting things in the pursuit of self pleasure. 

ROWAN:  Of course they have. 

JAZZA:  And I actually quite like, despite the fact that everybody—the reason that people went to see this movie is because of the fucking peach scene. And it was sensationalized and it were, and everybody found it funny. But the movie takes it deadly seriously.

ROWAN:  Oh, it's so serious. He goes on such a face journey. Timmy goes on such a fucking face journey during the scene, where it occurs to me could fuck a peach. And then he's like, I'm a—I'm fucking this peach.

JAZZA:  It's very American pie, with the American Pie.

ROWAN:  Right. And so yeah, I just—okay, so this whole second act, I will say, again, we get it Rowan, you have some thoughts about it. But it was really—it was almost frustrating to me, because I wasn't—there were so many lines from Oliver, where it's unclear if he's talking about his own internalized homophobia or whether he is aware of the fact he's about to fuck a 17 year old. Because it's a lot of like, I don't want to mess you up, I want you to be sure. Like, he seems really excited about like Elio's shorts, teenage boy refractory period. I don't want you to regret anything. And  I—it's frustrating, because I'm like, I almost wish that some of these lines in this like attitude had been within a movie without that age gap, where it had been a character who would—

JAZZA:  A peer, well, if they were peers, like I—

ROWAN:  If they were peers, and one of them was outwardly—

JAZZA:  If it was  17 and a 19 year old—

ROWAN:  Oh, if it yeah, it was like, I kind of wish that we'd had because some of the—some of the emotions, like felt really interesting if it had been about queerness. But I was always so aware of the fact it could just be an adult being like, I don't know, you're so mature, but I don't want to do anything that's gonna get us in trouble. And Elio's like,  I won't tell anyone like, and so I kind of wish that we'd had like, that same energy of like having a peers who are in different stages in their queerness. Having that kind of emotional conversations would have been interesting to me.

JAZZA:  A lot of the criticism of the movie I have seen that I think is somewhat misguided has been, why didn't they just make Elio 18? And I think that there are still so many of the same problems

ROWAN:  Yeah. I agree.

JAZZA:  You just bump Elio up a year. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  What I think actually would fix this movie. It's making—I'm available. Is—is making Oliver younger, making Oliver an undergrad, making him like 19 or something along those lines, which would still work with that story. It would still make sense like a first year undergrad applies for a research.

ROWAN:  Yeah, summer research.

JAZZA:  Petition, some of the—Program. Yeah, whatever. And then, because I think Oliver's character in the movie is battling a lot of the same things that Elio is, and in many ways, because of his more conservative background is having those, those battles in a much more intense way that I think would feel more sympathetic. If he were—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  If there weren't kind of like this huge power imbalance that they have. That is glaring about it. And so if we can go through and do kind of like some reshoots because Timothy looks exactly the same age.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  And maybe we're getting another character completely wiped out Armie Hammer of the movie. 

ROWAN: easy, breezy.

JAZZA:  We can—we can do it. Yeah. 

ROWAN:  What did you call act three?

JAZZA:  I called Act Three. This was my party and it's aftermath. And I called it a party in its aftermath, only because of that dancing that they did on the street and then Elio throws up. 

ROWAN:  That's fair.

JAZZA:  Because that's my idea of a good party.

ROWAN:  Yeah. my—my part three was bitch, they knew each other for like three weeks. I mean, you can sum up this entire thing. This is a very top heavy episode, I think for everyone. Like we did a lot of context and a lot of build up. But essentially, they go on holiday together. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  They fuck, they get drunk in the street, they dance. Everything's great. And then all of us like bye. 

JAZZA:  And then Ol—well, because

ROWAN: come to an end, I have to go and Elio's at the train station, like mom please, come on pick me up.

JAZZA:  calls up his mom and go mommy, can you come and pick me up please.

ROWAN:  Come pick me up from the station, I'm here. And then Elio goes right back to Marzia, and it's like, and she's like, I'm not mad at you for fucking that man, let's stay friends for life. And he's like, for life babe. And then Elio's dad and him have an interesting conversation, where it's like, implied that maybe his dad had a similar romance that he didn't quite go full.

JAZZA:  He says it pretty explicitly. I feel like 

ROWAN:  You had a beautiful friendship, maybe more than a friendship. Like all of this vibes. What you had was rare and special.when I was like, bitch, they knew each other for three weeks, calm down.

JAZZA:  But it's like, you're such 

ROWAN:  Anti-romantic. Oh you're right.  One of these days, I'll find the romance that satisfies me.

JAZZA:  I'm not a romantic. I'm anti romantic. Evil. But I I really love this monologue. And I think about the I can't remember the exact of the line. But I think about that it's better to have. It's the—it's better to have love

ROWAN:  Yeah. And the importance of feeling those emotions. I also really appreciated the scene I thought was really beautifully scripted, I think it's—

JAZZA:  Soft dad, we stan.

ROWAN:  Yeah, soft dad, we stan, where he's essentially just like, hey, you need to feel these feelings. And because what I don't want to happen is that you go into these into future relationships with this still being feeling like heavy baggage to you and feeling like it's going to affect your life going forwards in a negative way because you haven't actually allowed yourself to feel every part of it. And come to terms with it, which I felt like was very, you know, a nice thing to say. And then also there's the exchange of does mom know, I don't think she does. And I'm like, mom knows fucking everything. No, mom knows everything about both of you idiots.

JAZZA:  Yeah, of course she fucking knows.

ROWAN:  You fools.

JAZZA:  She sees everything

ROWAN:  She sees everything. And then the end of the movie. It's winter now, Happy Hanukkah, everyone.

JAZZA:  Happy Hanukkah.

ROWAN:  And what could be a better Hanukkah gift than Oliver calling the family to, to tell them that he's getting married to a woman that he was on and off seeing during the summer when he was with Elio. 

JAZZA:  Great.

ROWAN:  The end of the movie. And then Elio sits down and cries into a fire. That's yeah, that is literally the end of the film. And the credits are over Timmy doing a good bit of face acting again. This time not about whether he wants to fuck a peach, but whether you know he's a— he's— he's experiencing that happiness and sadness that dad told him to experience looking into the fire.

JAZZA:  So you mock the face acting, but he did get in the 

ROWAN:  No, I'm not mocking the face acting. He did a very good face acting. I'm not— I would—I would never mock him for it. I'm just pointing out that he did it twice. And I would say the second time has a slightly more emotional weight to it. And that was Call Me By Your Name.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Jazza.

ROWAN:  Absolutely not. I will not play this game with you. 

JAZZA:  Jazza.

ROWAN:  Rowan.

JAZZA:  We are now at the part of the podcast, where we give our very good ratings. So we like to give each of the movies that we rate a number of the colored bars of the six rainbow flag. They are red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, blue for harmony and purple for spirit. Rowan,what bars and how many are you giving?

ROWAN:  I'm sorry Jazza, it's getting one. For the—

JAZZA:  I can't believe you're so 

ROWAN:  —boredom and the ickyness. And I'm gonna say it gets yellow for sun, because it was in Italy during the summer.

JAZZA:  It was basically a tourism advert for Northern Italy to be fair.

ROWAN:  It really was. So I want to go to all of those places. I did write in my notes like a question mark find out if the house from Call Me By Your Name is an air b&b now,  like can we go there? When I was probably meant to be focusing on whatever was going on on screen. Jazza, how about you, how many bars and which colors? 

JAZZA:  Yeah, fuck you. I'm giving it five.

ROWAN:  Of course, she fucking

JAZZA:  So I'm giving it life/sex red. I'm gonna give it healing because—which is orange because of the healing—

ROWAN:  At the end. 

JAZZA:  —that happens at the end. Then I'm gonna give it the sunlight because it's an advert for Northern Italy and I love Lake Garda, and I want to have my honeymoon there. Nature, obviously, I can't believe that you miss that off. So I'm giving it the green, and then I'm going to give—

ROWAN:  The peach.

JAZZA:  —candle so he fucks a plant. And then I'm gonna give it a purple for spirit. 

ROWAN:  I'll allow it.

JAZZA:  Because I needed to give it

ROWAN:  Yeah, you have to give another one. Not very harmonious. I would be fascinated to hear what other people— I always wonder what listeners think about the films that we watch, but for this one especially I'm— I'm extra interested, considering I think this is the most divisive in terms of our final ratings that a film has been.

JAZZA:  I think this is the most divergent from

ROWAN:  Yeah. And so I would love to hear whether people agree with me or wrong.

[theme]

ROWAN:  So thank you very much for listening to this episode of the podcast, and all that the It has been—if you enjoy these episodes, please consider supporting us on the Patreon I mentioned earlier. As a patron, you get to join art Queer Movie Club,  will be watch Queer movies every month on our Discord, which you will also get access to. And then at higher levels, we've got exciting things like movie recommendations, monthly newsletters with lots of gay stuff that we've found on the internet during the month. So check it out, because it allows us to pay Julia, our editor, and then maybe eventually ourselves.

JAZZA:  It would be nice for me. Thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier that we have on Patreon. Like its pinch self. Oh, it's real. Makes us feel nice. 

ROWAN:  Thank you.

JAZZA:  Thank you very much.

ROWAN:  And then also make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast, so that you're notified of our next episode wherever you listen to your podcasts. We have been Jazza John and Rowan Ellis. We are edited by Julia Schifini, and a part of Multitude find more of that amazing stuff at multitude.productions

JAZZA:  Toodaloo.

ROWAN:  Thanks.

[theme]

The new Knives Out movie is a bit gay, apparently... well, we'll be the judge of that!

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

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- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

ROWAN:  Before we get into this episode, we just wanted to say a massive thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby who support us on Patreon at the rainbow parent level. So incredible. Thank you so much for all of your support. If you would like to check out our Patreon which has a bunch of different perks, including queer watch alongs our Discord that's exclusive to patrons, and a bunch of other stuff besides then check us out@patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast. Okay on with the show.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best—

ROWAN:   —and worst—

JAZZA:  In LGBTQ plus cinema. One glorious genre at a time. 

ROWAN:  I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA:  And I am Jazza John.

ROWAN:  Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA:  This episode genre is—

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Queer mystery?

JAZZA:  I love we made that a question.

ROWAN:  Very coordinated. 

JAZZA:  Today we are going to be talking about Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery. This is the latest in the Knives Out Series of Films that it is the second. It's still a series that accounts and it's starring Daniel Craig as Benoit Blanc and Hugh Grant as his housekeeper.

ROWAN:  But before we done our mesh facemasks, Jazza, what's the gayest thing you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA:  What a great question that I actually hadn't thought about until you just asked me now.

ROWAN:  You did give me a short Christmasy candle anecdote earlier, which I think is a very good option.

JAZZA:  Excellent. Thank you so much for knowing me better than I know myself. So as you know, I have now moved to New York. Hello, I'm Jazza, and I live in New York. 

ROWAN:  Incredible.

JAZZA:  And I on my first weekend attended, it was the one after Christmas and attended a lesbian candle white elephant where—

ROWAN:  Stunning.

JAZZA:  I went to the Union Square Christmas market and asked one of the people on the market stand to give me their gayest candle because it was for lesbians. And I asked what did the lesbians want? And she went sage. 

ROWAN:  And she was right. 

JAZZA:  And she was right. They veritably fought over 

ROWAN:  Notorious, notorious for the sage.

JAZZA:  How about you Rowan?

ROWAN:  Well, I accidentally got a wolf cut in my hair.

JAZZA:  And 

ROWAN:  I—basically I just was like, oh, can I get slightly shorter layers than I did before? And then she really went hard on the like, the front of my head with the short layers. And then just continued until the back was like a bit struggling. So I was like, oh, wow—

JAZZA:  Oh no.

ROWAN:  And she was like, uh-huh, let's take a wolf cut. And I was like, it is one. Not what I asked for, but I was like, I guess it makes me more you know, Gen Z gay, so.

JAZZA:  Oh, yeah because the blue hair wasn't enough.

ROWAN:  Yeah. No.

JAZZA:  Sure.

ROWAN:  So they are looking at me slightly closer, because I've been wearing my hair 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  So he hasn't…

JAZZA:  I haven't been oh my god, the reveal.

ROWAN:  I mean it's slightly greasy. So it's—

JAZZA:  Oh, my go—

ROWAN:  And my hair is just a bit of a mess.

JAZZA:  I would—you look great—

ROWAN:  I'm gay.

JAZZA:  But it does increase your lesbian. 

ROWAN:  Yeah, it really does.

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  So I think I need to figure out how to like style it and work with it and get over the panic and stress of having a haircut. I didn't think I was gonna have. I was like, yeah, keep the length, that it happened. But it just made me more gay. So that's my gayest thing from this month.

[theme]

JAZZA:  We will first be chatting about the gay of this film. How they marketed it as such, and also the inherent queerness of the mystery genre.

ROWAN:  We will then be reviewing the plot and splitting the film into three acts. Of course, as usual. Obviously, we will be spoiling all of this movie, you know, feel free to watch and come back to us when you've seen it. I would recommend that, I like this movie. Spoiler alert. But also, it is a murder mystery. So like if you—if you—some movies, you could listen to our explanation and then go watch and be like, wow, I feel like I've had an entirely whole experience. But we will be giving away who did the murder. So it feels like maybe watch it before we give that away to you.

JAZZA:  Excellent. And so without further ado, let's get online and play a quick game of Among Us with Angela Lansbury and review Glass Onion.

[theme]

JAZZA:  So we have had it confirmed by directors, cast members, the gossiping classes of the movie elite, that this film is indeed about Benoit Blanc who is confirmed as a gay.

ROWAN:  Homosexual.

JAZZA:  Veritable homosexual. So we found this out just before it was released in the run-up to Christmas this year, through a load of the media PR interviews that were happening around the movie with—I first found out about it listening to radio four in the morning, because I'm just really engaged with politics, where Daniel Craig was being interviewed and they just had a quick conversation about oh, yeah, it was—it was just really obvious that Blanc was gay because he's uh—

ROWAN: some neckties.

JAZZA:  Wears—

ROWAN:  Neckerchief.

JAZZA:  Neckerchiefs. Loves the neckerchiefs, and is a bit eccentric. And it has been described and talked about by the cast members and Rian Johnson, the director as when they thought about showing a little bit of Benoit Blanc's homelife. It was “obvious” quote-unquote, to them that this would be how they were going to code the character, and that it fit really, really well. I was first excited and then worried. Because this feels like a narrative, a trope, a way of discussing the queerness of a movie that we have seen with many, many films in the past. When, if you blink, maybe you miss it. But it's very important to the marketing of the movie that everybody knows that this is now queer, or has a queer character in it.

ROWAN:  This is indeed a term that I coined for a long-ass video essay that I made a couple years ago. Queer Catching.

JAZZA:  Queer Catching. And—

ROWAN:  They really did it.

JAZZA:  Hey, they caught this—

ROWAN:  Textbook.

JAZZA:  —they caught this queer.

ROWAN:  They call you. I mean I was gonna watch it anyway but—

JAZZA:  Yeah, of course. And I would have anyway as well. I am very conscious that when especially Rian Johnson has done interviews around the home life of Benoit Blanc, he wants it to be kind of like a pogo, where you never really the—the personal life of the detective of the main character in a mystery is never a focal point of the story or the narrative. They are the vessel through which you experience the unfolding of the story. And that makes sense for this genre. But I feel like the—I feel like the problem here is that if there is—this is like a queer coded character made for a Chinese audience, where unless you know that, that scene, and it is one scene where Hugh Grant opens the door for Daniel Craig, they aren't even in the same scene together. You would not know that they are a gay couple. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

JAZZA:  And I feel like we were—we've been conned a little bit. What do you think?

ROWAN:  I kind of agree with you. I think that especially within this genre, right? And I'm going to talk a little bit in my context section about the like, queerness of the detective genre. But I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people that I've seen online, who didn't see the interviews that were done beforehand that I think we're done, partly in order for people to like get that this was a thing from the beginning and there—for there to be like no doubt when they go into the cinemas. People hadn't seen these interviews, and all those discussions beforehand, fully thinking it was a Holmes and Watson situation.

JAZZA:  Hmm.

ROWAN:  Right.

JAZZA:  My parents who had seen none of the—I watched this the first time with my parents, they had no idea. They didn't clock that as a—as a quick outro at all.

ROWAN:  Yeah. And so yeah, I—I would agree with you. I think also, it's interesting because I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with like, I've seen interviews where they essentially ask like, oh, did you know that he was gay when you first like auditioned or during the first movie? And Daniel Craig was like, no, because he clearly wasn't. And it was something that came between movies, when they found out they were getting a sequel or maybe multiple sequels, and that Rian Johnson was like, okay, I guess I gotta figure out who this character is outside of these like, elements of it. Potentially, he had that thought in his head, but he clearly never said it to the actors. And I think that—I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with deciding to flesh out a character who you thought was only going to be a one movie or one season and then being like, ah, actually, I feel like I've realized something about them, that I can include. I really thought about their backstory or their personal life, but now it's making sense to me. But I think that then only giving us this like one ambiguous scene is a bit strange to me. And I think that—that thing that you said about okay, this has to, you know, the detective's personal life can't be the focal point and everything. You can have that and also have made it explicit that they will get—like he—his character, Hugh Grant's character calls Benoit Blanc, Blanc, like his by his surname.

JAZZA:  Yeah. Yeah.

ROWAN:  It doesn't even like— I— the smallest detail if he'd have just said, instead of being like, there's someone at the door for yo  Benny, or even like, to be honest, I would have preferred like an actual term of endearment, because —he's very British. Darling is a classic British one. If you'd have just been like, there's someone at the door for you, darling. Yeah, that would have made no difference in the scene. It would have given you know, more or less information, but it would actually have confirmed it.

JAZZA:  And the problem that I have with the scene as well, is it feels sandwiched in and kept in just for the sake of queer coding. There's the concept in western film storytelling where everything in the movie is meant to move the plot forward. This does nothing to move the plot forward. And there it—isn't even that Hugh Grant's character is a minor character that doesn't really do anything because there are other minor characters and secondary characters that we see in very brief scenes. I'm thinking about Dave Bautista's mother for example, who's literally in just like one funny scene but tells us something about um, Bautista's character, moves the plot forward—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  —and like he's actually has a function. Hugh Grant's character has no function in this movie whatsoever. And so it feels like something that is just dropped in. And it's literally two seconds—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  —Of the movie that we— you lit—I would the first time I watched this, I was tired and falling asleep. And I literally missed it because I—I nodded off for like 30 seconds—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  —and missed the scene. 

ROWAN:  Yes, agreed. 

JAZZA:  One of the things I've really enjoyed is all of the other queer-coded stuff about Benoit Blanc that people have found and then turned into memes. His fabulous like Grecian flag—

ROWAN:  Yeah. Romper?

JAZZA:  Romper. Yeah. Beautiful when they get this medicine shot into the back of their neck. And he is the only one that doesn't have a gag reflex. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. Classic.

JAZZA:  All brilliant, brilliant moments. Do—how did the gay, the gays in the mysteries, and the detectives? How what and when?

ROWAN:  Thank you for that incredible segue into my bit of context, Jazza, so I think that we can talk about the sort of detective genre, and you know, men co-habiting without talking about Sherlock like I've already mentioned it. And that's, you know, Sherlock notoriously of the BBC version is like one of the most prolific fandoms on the internet. For something that only had like two episodes.

JAZZA:  Sure.

ROWAN:  Like, it's—because it had this like tension. And because it was clearly being like played around with and like, some people might argue queerbaiting was involved with the show, where you have this kind of very close, very caring, loving relationship between these two characters. But then the potential of them being romantically linked is referenced in text quite a lot, for them to just like, awkwardly deny it, or to get flustered about it, or you know anything like that. And so I think that it's not unusual for people to be able to see this subtext of like two men who are very intensely involved in the work and in their personal lives, who kind of complete each other in terms of, it's never just that one of them is able to solve it on their own. There's always like a some element that this other person brings, whether it is to in the case of Sherlock and John, to give them some kind of like grounding element, to give them appreciation where they have had scorn before from—from outsiders, which again, is quite queer coded. And so I think that it's not a sort of surprise to me, that a lot of people who already see the career potential in Sherlock Holmes and John Watson, for example, read this as being very queer. But then the other side of the coin is that it doesn't surprise me that the people who don't see Sherlock Holmes and John Watson is queer coded. Don't see these two as a couple. Because it is so—like he literally opens the door having in the middle of cooking after like, sort of slightly nagging Benoit—

JAZZA:  Are you in the bath again? Yeah.

ROWAN:  Like it's—it's very much that kind of energy that could be a—a spouse or it could just be, you know, a classic British butler scenario and—

JAZZA:  Uh really grea— yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  Still friends, especially because it's clearly during lockdown. So it's like, well, people will cohabitate

JAZZA:  all over the place.

ROWAN:  They loved apart. And so yeah, I think that it's—I— I don't think that it's completely like the first time we've seen this kind of potential queerness crop up, but it's the first time that we've had other than some indie projects. So there's a—a short film, a short Sherlock film, which is like, specifically queer which is on YouTube, which I can recommend to people. Search that out. But in terms of the big retellings like it's not really—so it's often actors will talk about like, not often, but sometimes actors will kind of hint at the subtext, or they'll do like a nudge and wink element to it. But it's not necessarily been explicit. And I just wish that this had actually done more to have it be completely unambiguous because I think that with Rian Johnson's idea of oh, we just wanted a tiny hint of his backstory is really good cover for not having to make this explicit. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Because people can hear that and very reasonably be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, you know, a lot of these, you don't know a lot about their backstories although I would argue that, because I think they are—

JAZZA:  I think it's just a load of rubbish

ROWAN:  There are a lot of facts that come in. Because Sherlock, even Pyro, like we've had backstories about Pyro absolutely, especially in the more recent movies and his kind of history as a soldier. And so it frustrates me that they don't necessarily see that there is a very particular way that you need to deal with queer stories, that cannot if you want them to be genuine representations deal with ambiguity, because of the history of queer coding, of queerbaiting and the queer catching. You cannot deal with that ambiguity, and for me be seen as like authentically trying to do representation as opposed to smattering it in a way that can be removed or can be like missed by people.

JAZZA:  I have a theory why—because I think that that is especially around the There's definitely kind of like a big queer following to that. 

ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. 

JAZZA:  And Sherlock is like another example of that as well. And I have a theory that it celebrates the outsider.

ROWAN:  Oh absolutely.

JAZZA:  It could be all of these series, the detective that or the investigator is brought in as the outsider who then is celebrated because of their outside their status.

ROWAN:  Okay, I agree with you and I'm going to add to two different detectives like kinds of couples who should have engaged together. 

JAZZA:  Oh. Excellent.

ROWAN:  One is an—written the original script. We're partners. Hot Fuzz.

JAZZA:  Oh. Ooh.

ROWAN:  Well originally—

JAZZA:  I didn't know that. 

ROWAN:  So originally they weren't partners, but there was a love interest for the Simon Pegg's character, and they were given to Nick Frost.

JAZZA:  Good.

ROWAN:  And so there is this—this idea of like, that is a love story, like these two—this is so easily a romance story if you had just pushed it slightly, and also Rosemary & Thyme.

JAZZA:  Oh my god, Rosemary & Thyme—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  I didn't even thought about them. 

ROWAN:  Those two lesbians, they need a—

JAZZA:  Definitely.Their obituary says she stayed, she lived with her longtime friend. 

ROWAN:  Yeah, exactly.

JAZZA: they own three cats.

ROWAN:  Yup. Solved garden related crimes

JAZZA:  Oh my god, I haven't even—I need to go back and watch Rosemary & Thyme now. 

ROWAN:  Anyone who's not British will have no clue what is.

JAZZA:  No idea.

ROWAN:  But basically it's just two—two women, ones like an ex-police detective and her gardener friend, and for some reason, they're always solving garden-related murders.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  That's so many murders. 

JAZZA:  It's always like the or the hoe or a plow which is the murder.

ROWAN: They—they were like doing the gardening for some big manor house and like a statue fell on someone.

JAZZA:  And—and like the knowledge that the gardener has of like particular herbs in, like plowing techniques—

ROWAN:  So gay.

JAZZA:  —always comes into it.

ROWAN:  All the sage,

ROWAN AND JAZZA: The sage. 

ROWAN:  So I do think—I think obviously right. I think that outside of status that like it's us two against the world, the idea of you having this like particular knowledge other people don't have, there's like loads of little bits that really lend themselves to queerness. I just wish that it was like explicitly made part of it, so that it could be literally kind of sick for two seconds and missed over.

JAZZA:  Which is literally again, literally what happened. We might get that in future—

ROWAN:  I hope so.

JAZZA:  —iterations. It sounds like this is going to be—they're going to continue making these I guess they're called Knives Out Mysteries now.

ROWAN:  Benoit Blanc mysteries. I will not rest until Daniel Craig has been in enough of these to eclipse James Bond. I want people to refer to like his big, they'll be like, Daniel Craig Nova, his big franchise working Knives Out. Like that's what I want. That's my dream.

JAZZA:  Oh for me it's—I'm sorry, It's for me, he's always the love interest in Tomb Raider.

ROWAN:  Okay, you know what, that's also fair.

JAZZA:  Thank you so much. He—he really was a clear awakening for me in his own little way.

ROWAN:  Like a boy.

JAZZA:  Shall we go with in and actually talk about this movie?

ROWAN:  Let's do it.

[theme]

JAZZA:  So we are introduced—should we do like a breakdown of the suite of characters in this 

ROWAN:  Oh, there was so many of them. Yeah, we'll do a very quick rundown. 

JAZZA:  So we have—we don't really need to do an introduction to Benoit Blanc. 

ROWAN:  He needs no introduction, Jazza.

JAZZA:  Literally. So Kate Hudson plays a successful fashion model who has now become an influencer, who has a sweatpants business that blew up during lockdown. Then we have Claire who is played by Kathryn Hahn, who is—was Angela All Along, that actress.

ROWAN:  Uh, Agatha.

JAZZA:  Agatha All Along.

ROWAN: 

JAZZA:  It was—that was the overarching twist of the military who plays a congresswoman or Senate—

ROWAN:  Politician.

JAZZA:  Uh, politician person.

ROWAN:  politician person. 

JAZZA:  Dave Bautista who plays a men's rights activist Twitch streamer. Hit too close to home there. Thank you very much. We have—

ROWAN:  And then Madelyn Cline plays his girlfriend's question mark. Like stuck on that feminist, like own candy, Whiskey.

JAZZA:  Yeah. Which is what I want to call a child that I have at some point. 

ROWAN:  Okay, we need to stop you procreating.

JAZZA:  Maybe. We have Lionel who is a clever science person.

ROWAN:  Clever science. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. Clever science.

ROWAN:  Leslie Odom Jr. plays, who I know. 

JAZZA:  Janelle Monae then plays Andy/Helen.

ROWAN:  We'll come to that later.

JAZZA:  We'll come to that twist. 

ROWAN:  And then finally Jessica Henwick is Peg, who is Birdie's sort of long-suffering assistant, loyal assistant. I think she was described as in all of the

JAZZA:  Who's leaned in too—too hard to Birdie's, to Birdie's career. And then finally the man who's trying to bring them all together, played by Edward Norton is a guy called Miles Bron. Miles Bron is the Elon Musk of this movie. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. I mean, he's just Elon Musk. Yeah.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And I—I people have commented on this, but I also love the fact that Rian Johnson must have been seeing all of this shit with Elon Musk pop off and being like—

JAZZA: Excellent.

ROWAN:  I cannot believe that I made this movie at such a specific time that is being released just after all this Twitter nonsense has happened. But essentially, Miles is this like billionaire genius founder of this tech company Alpha. That's incredible. This movie is set during COVID. Specifically, May 2020.

JAZZA:  Which I love.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Actually, because I don't—I think many productions that happened during lockdown have gone tried to maintain continuity and make it—and make stuff that doesn't happened, the fact that it was made in locked down. I really liked that we have kind of like—I guess this will be—this will eventually be a period piece.

ROWAN:  Well, what's—what's particularly interesting to me? So this is like a classic setup of a murder mystery, right? It's like mysterious invitation, everyone gets this invitation to come to this private island, like, absolutely classic. And this invitation is this series of puzzles in this invitation box. And all of these people do know each other. Oftentimes, when—when people are invited, it's all strangers. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  But in this one, they know each other. So they will just call each other and they're like crowdsourcing, the—the solving of this puzzle. And eventually, they get to this invitation, and they all decide to show up. And it's—what's really interesting is that you get a little hint at all of their characters. You see them in their everyday life when they get these puzzles, and how they choose to solve it, or whether or not they have like, sort of intellectual smarts, or social smarts, or not, as the case may be in a lot of cases. And then we get almost like a microcosm of that exact rundown again when they arrive, and you see what kind of masks they're wearing.

JAZZA:  Yeah. I really enjoyed that. 

ROWAN:  Which I adored. So it was like Benoit Blanc is wearing this very fashionable mask, which matches his outfit, very cute and—

JAZZA:  It matches his neckerchief, made of the same material—

ROWAN:  Exactly.

JAZZA:  But actually, probably not very—it wasn't like the right level of mask for—

ROWAN:  Exactly. Although it was in May. So at that point, it's like I guess that's what we use. Whereas Lionel the scientist is using the actual proper—

JAZZA:  Yes, medical mask.

ROWAN:  —Medical mask and it fits properly. Claire, the politician is wearing a mask that does have ways of adjusting it, but she simply hasn't. And so she's constantly having to pull it up. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  And it gave me like the ick because I was like, Oh, I—I've seen so many people do that like that is a thing that I have witnessed of people, essentially wearing a useless mask because it's constantly falling down and then—

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  Sort of make like a slight effort to pull it back up again. And you've got Peg who has a disposable medical mask, which considering that she's flown in with Birdie who is wearing—

JAZZA:  Who's literally wearing like a fishnet on her face.

ROWAN:  Which—

JAZZA:  A bejeweled golden fishnet. I love this as like you learn everything about the character. We've also had a nod to this when they're on the phone to one another. And Birdie is solving the mystery— the mystery box it like in the middle of a party, and somebody goes, are you at a party at this locked down? And Birdie goes, oh, yeah, but they're all in my pod. And there's like hundreds of people around. Very, very good.

ROWAN:  Which I love. But I—but I think like people have pointed out the fact that there's—so this question mark is obviously a reference to Lana Del Rey 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Identical map.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  But Peg having a medical mask, a lot of people suggested like she was at the party as well, and wasn't wearing masks. So it looks like the kind of mask that you'll be given if you hadn't got one, and someone in like the airport or like, was like you need to wear this and she was like—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Okay, I guess. So she puts it on, it works fine. But Kate Hudson's like, don't worry, I already have one. And I think that this is all like really, just so and then obviously, like, Dave Bautista's character, and like Whiskey are wearing no masks. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. to this.

ROWAN:  Incredible. Also, Andi turns up isn't wearing a mask, which I think is interesting, because I don't necessarily think that, that is a comment on her, like COVID awareness or interest because she is also a scientist. I think it's more the idea that she wants this entrance and to everyone see her face.

JAZZA:  Sure. 

ROWAN:  Which makes even more sense when you know about like the twist afterward, that this big sort of like, It's me moment happens because we do see earlier on that character is wearing a mask when she goes to and all this stuff. So it's clearly like a thing that she does normally. So yeah, that's our rundown of characters and—and them getting to this dock where they get met by Ethan Hawke, who was playing Miles's assistant in one scene, just to spray them in the throat and be like, don't worry about COVID, It's fine. No masks needed. Implying that there is this, you know, billionaires figured out.

JAZZA:  Yeah, there's this throat shot vaccine thing 

ROWAN: Yeah, and he's like, I'm just gonna keep this to myself.

JAZZA:  I remember what was it at the time, it was like hot water. You were meant to drink lots of tea, and that would kill the COVID.

ROWAN:  Oh yeah, that would kill the COVID.

JAZZA:  Good time. I have called this First Act, by the way. Don't worry, They're in my pod.

ROWAN:  Oh God. That it was just enough COVID. the island it's like—

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  It's a—we figured—

JAZZA:  They're literally are in the pod. 

ROWAN: We—we did this. It's fine. You're not a part of that. I did—I really love that. And one of the other things we get at this point is we see Benoit in his home life. 

JAZZA:  Oh.

ROWAN:  For a scene—

JAZZA:  Uh-huh.

ROWAN:  We flashback to the scene and find out more about it. But we see him playing Among Us. Again, just aggressively pandemic vibes with some celebrity guests. I'm obsessed. So Angela, Angela Lansbury, because why not.

ROWAN:  The gay— the gay clues are really

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Which is fun because it's also like connections between them, as well as to like just Benoit knowing all these famous people because they are playing themselves. They don't seem like characters. So like Angela Lansbury was Mrs. Lovett in 2012, for example, I'm very gay, so I knew that. And also who was going to be in Rian Johnson's next project, which is a detective show. So she herself is like playing a detective.

JAZZA:  I can't wait.

ROWAN:  I love her so much. she's straight what a—

JAZZA:  I know, what a waste. 

ROWAN:  And so we see him like in the bath, he's clearly kind of odds with himself because he can't—he clearly like at this point, there's no mysteries to solve. Everyone's inside—

JAZZA:  There's just the mystery of the

ROWAN:  And he's going slowly crazy co— a copy of Kane's jaw bone is on the floor.

JAZZA:  Of cou—I knew that you were going to notice a fucking book reference. Of course.

ROWAN:  Which is so funny that he's like solving Kane's Jawbone, because he's like, so bored. And he's got his like laptop in the bath, and he's got little fares on. And he's just the absolute classic picture of like the detective—

JAZZA:  You know that he's a prune from the belly button down. 

ROWAN:  Oh, truly.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  I need—he's like I need a case. Like, again, a classic start-to-work detective, like story. And so he also has gotten one of these boxes. And so we get to the island. And what we think is a classic story of everyone's been invited by Miles to play this murder mystery, to solve his murderer.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Has a little twist in it, because we find out that Benoit was not actually invited. So he has got this box.

JAZZA:  Just rocked up. World's most famous detective.

ROWAN:  World's most famous detective. So if someone has given him this mysterious box, who is it? We—who wo—we maybe— we'll never find out, we will find out. And so the detecting begins as they all get onto this island and

JAZZA:  Well—well,  is very excited about the—the happy accident that Benoit has arrived because what he has planned later on the island with all of his guests, is a murder mystery party. 

ROWAN:  Well, this is it to solve his murder.

JAZZA:  It almost looks like it's—it's deliberate that he's invited the most famous detective in the world to come to his—to his party. But we soon find out 

ROWAN:  See if he can solve this, this crazy mystery written by Gillian Flynn, which was—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  I laughed so hard at that

JAZZA:  Let's just say it is not fatal.

ROWAN:  But there is also another wrench in the plan. What's a metaphor?

JAZZA:  Another— Well, now I—

ROWAN:  Another brick in the wall. 

JAZZA:  Another—another kick in the teeth.

ROWAN:  Oh, kick in the teeth. But there's another thing that's a little bit off, which is that Andi Cassandra brand.

JAZZA:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  Andy she's known, also has turned up, which, I guess people didn't expect to happen because she—there's been recently been a court case it turns out.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Where that Miles is one, where he has proven that he is the rightful CEO and owner of this big company Alpha and that he came up with the idea for it. And that Andy in fact has kind of been ousted as the kind of ex-CEO. And so they definitely didn't think she was going to turn up at this fun little island. They were like why—why is she here? This is awkward. We all used to be friends but she—

JAZZA:  And every—and everyone's kind of like doing little jabs at her being like

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Calm and all of that.

ROWAN:  Like this is very weird. And I think also we get the scene that we've seen her in, everyone else when we said everyone had been solving the mystery together of this puzzle box, the only two people we kind of don't see really doing that are Benoit, we don't see him opening this box at all. And Andy who we see in like a just smash it up, just smashed this box to hell and to get invite out of it, which I very much enjoyed and it turns out that towel in the hair, I was like very specific choice to have. As like what does this mean, towel in the hair?  It's actually very relevant later on. 

JAZZA:  Is it?

ROWAN:  Yeah, because she's—because her hair, you can't see whose hair is. Because you don't—need to now know which

JAZZA:  Oh that is clever. Okay. So they go up to this Glass Onion, after which this is named like a bit it.

ROWAN:  It's literally—

JAZZA:  A Glass Onion.

ROWAN:  A Glass Onion. 

JAZZA: Literally

ROWAN:  And figuratively.

JAZZA:  Yeah. And they're getting ready for dinner. Before that, we see a couple of conflicts that are seeded. We start to think as a viewer could they, but we know a merge is gonna happen. Could they want to murder Miles? So Peg the assistant of Birdie is really worried about a PR statement about this, the sweatpants that is going to be released. We don't know too much about that yet. And we also see that Whiskey. The girlfriend—supposed girlfriend, flirty person of—

ROWAN:  Of Duke.

JAZZA:  —of Duke, played by Dave Bautista, the men's rights activist, is doing some big flirting with Miles, oh dear. So maybe there's some kind of like—

ROWAN:  Jealousy, all active passion.

JAZZA:  Jealous happening there. So as they're sitting down for dinner, we—yeah, I have of course, a nice long monologue from Miles where he shows off the fact that he has rented the Mona Lisa for a couple of weeks. 

ROWAN:  Yeah, no one's in the Louvre, that's shut down. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, literally no way 

ROWAN:  Get over to my place and private island.

JAZZA:  And we are shown that it has a really sensitive safety mechanism so that even when somebody's phone goes off, it all shuts down. But Miles has managed to convince them to build in a safety release, to just turn the safety glass off.

ROWAN:  I wonder if checkov’s Mona Lisa, or

JAZZA:  Checks off Mona Lisa.

ROWAN:  We'll be coming back soon.

JAZZA:  And he also reveals this, there's—there's too much—too many layers to this film. But I guess that's kind of the whole point. 

ROWAN:  It's an Onion.

JAZZA:  And you just can't see the center. There's this new technology that he has called Klear, which is going to provide limitless energy, apparently, but it has hydrogen. The science guy and the politician lady are worried about it.

ROWAN:  Yeah, no, shit. Hey, what if the fuel was made of hydrogen? That seems safe.

JAZZA:  And they keep on saying, Hindenburg. Cause obviously hydrogen is very flammable. This is where we go into Act Two for me. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

[theme]

ROWAN:  So dear listener, you may have been thinking, while you've been consuming this podcast, well, this seems like fun. They're just joking around about a film that they enjoyed. I would love to do that too. But you're not entirely sure how to get into podcasting, you're not entirely sure what goes into it, what you need, what are the typical, like pitfalls that you have to avoid? Well, Multitude is offering classes for podcasters by podcasters for people like you. You'll learn from weekly instruction, hands-on homework, and lots of valuable feedback from your instructor and classmates in our online classroom. We are starting out this first round of classes with three different classes that you can take. They all have very fancy titles. So here they are, number one, Sustainable Podcasting, Refining Structure, and Workflow, So Your Show Works with you, by the wonderful Eric Silver. We also have Podcasts Mixing and Mastering for non-engineers by Brandon Grugle. And How to Make A Living As A Digital Creator by Amanda McLoughlin. Truly something for everyone. You've got your structural work processes, you've got your technical audio stuff, and you've got you're making a living, like getting rid of the bullshit financial stuff as well. So maybe your New Years' resolution wants to you know, try new things, this might be a great way for you to kick off 2023 by working on a new project, or will be a great gift for an aspiring podcaster that you know. You can learn more about the dates, curriculum, and technical details, or just go and register today by going to multitude.productions/classes, or checking out the posts on the Multitude social media feeds. And just before we get back into the episode, we want to say a massive thank you to our sponsor yet again, Squarespace. Amazing returning sponsor to the podcast. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, Squarespace is like all in one place. Everything is there, it's the only thing you'll need to do just that. You can use it to build the site, obviously. But you can also do things like set up an online shop or connect with your audience. We use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website. I used it to make my own personal website. So I'm a loyal Squarespace user for a number of reasons. One, I have things constantly going on, overload of projects that I need to link to in the site and to talk about on the website, including all my social media platforms. And Squarespace lets you not only link to your social media but also connect it so you can display posts from your profiles on the site directly. There are also analytics and insights because sometimes it's great to dig into a bit of data, you know what I mean? So if you're someone who wants to, like grow your brand, if you're wanting to build a website for a business, then it can figure out, you know, where are you getting your site visits from? Where are sales coming from? What keywords are being used to find you? And all of that stuff is so useful. And they also have really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. As much as I might wish to be an artist, I'm simply am not. And so the designer function is an absolute lifesaver, which means that you have like templates that you can follow. It's very easy, the people who are actually good at design have done the work for you. You just have to slot in all of the stuff that you need for your website, including making sure that the website doesn't look like rubbish on mobile that is taken care of for you automatically, which is very useful. So if that sounds like something that's up your alley, then check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Queer Movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Okay, back to the show and the Glass Onion.

[theme]

ROWAN:  That also is where I'm going into Act Two. We've kind of got this set up in Act One, we know all of the players, were signed to get some of the conflicts, and it's time for the murder mystery.

JAZZA:  And it's solved in about 20 seconds—

ROWAN:  Yes.

JAZZA:  —by Benoit Blanc.

ROWAN:  I was really excited for this because I was like when a scene like that happens, and a character is being smart, you know, it's either gonna go really well or really badly for them. And I was like, I didn't know whether the kicker was going to be that he's saying all this—Ben was saying all this stuff, and then he's wrong, or that Ben was saying all this stuff, and then he's right. And I think that this is where we get a sense of like how Rian Johnson and like, wants you to feel about Benoit. Because I think that in the first movie, in Knives Out, he has this element of cluelessness because we—not to—I'm gonna spoil anything for Knives Out. But we as an audience are not following him as a detective— 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —In that movie. We are following a different character. And so we see how that character is messing with his investigation, and how many things he misses. And he does eventually figure out the end. But I feel like coming out of that movie, I was like, well, it wasn't his movie, so we don't know how we're meant to necessarily feel about him when we—whether we are meant to believe he's very competent because he does seem to have solved all this stuff, that we've just seen him need a lot of help to solve it. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Or whether we're meant to think that he like needs other people, and he's a bit full of himself, and he has that arrogant detective element to him. And so I thought this was a really interesting way of being like, no, he's just some—he's just some guy who really likes mysteries. Like he's really excited about the fact that he's solving. He's not necessarily trying to show off, but it's like, here's this thing, he's excited 

JAZZA:  But also we've had that built up over, he's just like looking for any kind of detective mystery stimulation. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. And he—and he's so excited. He's like, thanking Miles for how like exciting this was like, oh my gosh, like yes, this is amazing. I found all your clues, like thank you so much. This is to him is like really exciting. This was not the energy that Miles was hoping that that would happen at this particular murder mystery. He kind of thought was going to take all weekend to solve, and then even then maybe they wouldn't. And he manages to solve actually before Miles is fake killed, which is incredible. Truly a triumph. We—we love that.

JAZZA:  Yeah. And Miles stands there with the—a look of a man completely defeated. And then the mechanism in his chest that is meant to show the the fake blood come out, splats all over the table. The moment that I really, really enjoyed.

ROWAN:  And his face is just blank the entire time with outrage.

JAZZA:  A Blanc, if you will.

ROWAN:  Wow.

JAZZA:  Yep. So there's a big fight around and each anemones character. People have really pissed off that she's there. It all comes to a head and we see her storm off into the other parts of the visual that there I guess. Then suddenly, Duke who is the men's rights activist, he collapses after taking a sip of his glass. Everybody starts to kind of like point the finger at Andi. They find out that Duke's pistol is missing. He's been carrying around this pistol shooting off because he's a men's rights activist. And then suddenly, because Miles thought it would be a good thing when they were doing the murder mystery. All of the power goes off while there's absolute chaos. Blanc goes outside to find Andi to tell her kind of like what has happened because—

ROWAN:  She's missed all of it.

JAZZA:  She's missed all of the drama. Yeah, the— the death of Duke. And then somebody shoots Andi.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  She collapses to the floor, and then—

ROWAN:  And she dies.

JAZZA:  Sure.

ROWAN:  She died.

JAZZA:  In quotations, she

ROWAN:  As far as we're concerned as this point, she's dead.

JAZZA:  She's dead. And then we go into a really long, extended flashback sequence. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. Blanc's like, I know who killed Andi. And you're like, oh, okay, he's doing it again. this is real. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  Or is it? Yeah, so this is really interesting. But there's also like, again, these little scenes that come up where we're just learning a little bit more about the characters. So for example, Miles mix everyone there's special drinks with like glasses, which have their name engraved on it apart from Peg, aka, like the worker who gets a red solo cup too. And then Peg writes her own name on it in Sharpie later on. We're like, oh Peg, which is just this idea of like, the kind of contempt that he has for people who are like, below him, I guess?

JAZZA:  Yeah. It just reinforces asshole state.

ROWAN:  Yes, truly. We also have this scene where he makes this speech about being a disrupter. 

JAZZA:  Oh, my God. Yeah.

ROWAN:  Because they know—

JAZZA:  I know too many of these people, who an ironically make those speeches.

ROWAN:  Disgusting. Because they talk about being disruptors. And again—

JAZZA:  What's the thing that links us all together? What are the 

ROWAN:  So he says about the idea of like, you know, it's okay to you know, maybe someone will be brave enough to break a small thing. And then it like, you know, people will get behind it, because they want to see that thing broken and then you break more things but are you going to be the person that breaks the biggest thing that people are going to hate you for? It's almost like so the finale of this movie is going to be that exact thing. And that potentially, Andi/Helen is going to be revealed as the actual disrupter. Who did break the small thing, and then it—we'll get to that later. But yeah, we have these little bits that might be foreshadowing, and we also see a little bit of walking around, and snoopy, snoopy snooping that might be happening with Benoit. 

JAZZA:  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. 

ROWAN:  And then yeah, it's just to say we get back into a flashback to reveal what the hell actually happened. 

JAZZA:  So Andi's dead. 

ROWAN:  Yes. Spoil that, spoil that. Not—not on the step. 

JAZZA:  Not on the step.

ROWAN:  He actually died a while ago.

JAZZA:  Yeah, she's been dead a while. Everybody said it was suicide, and it happened about a week before the trip. But of course, she has a twin sister.

ROWAN:  Helen.

JAZZA:  So the twin sister then goes to Benoit Blanc, because he's a world-famous detective with one of these mystery boxes in order to get hire him to investigate her sister's death. We then get a flashback and a flashback as Helen. Oh, my brain,

ROWAN:  Andi.

JAZZA:  No, no, no. So Helen tells Benoit, Andi's origin story with this group of disruptors. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

JAZZA:  So Andy had this group of people that were all down on their luck, all in their 30s a little bit washed up, but close to home. Alright, so let's calm down everyone. And then she introduces Miles to the group. And then everything starts to like slowly turn around. And as things start to turn around, Andi then comes up with the principles of this company Alpha that she lost the rights to in this court case, and that Miles is now the CEO of. Do you know what is on this napkin?

ROWAN:  No. So I was like, I know that I could pause it and try and read it. But people much cleverer than me will have done that, and actually, be able to explain whatever weird science shits on the napkin.

JAZZA:  May it's just a buzzword.

ROWAN:  I love it. It's like synergy. 

JAZZA:  So it says, free app, code, delivery, exponential growth, worldwide accessibility diversification—

ROWAN:  Oh my God.

JAZZA:  —And then crypto scalability.

ROWAN:  Incredible.

JAZZA:  Crypto management, accessibility, scalability, development, timestamp, I don't know. And then manpower.

ROWAN:  Incredible. 

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN:  And that's what this entire thing has been about.

JAZZA:  I just love the

ROWAN:  I just love they chose to show the napkin because they didn't have to show what was on the napkin.

JAZZA:  No, they didn't at all.

ROWAN:  At all. Incredible. And so essentially not only has she like Miles outed her as the CEO but the—all of the people who are at this—

JAZZA:  They all testified.

ROWAN:  Like all the friends, they did perj—they did a perjury.

JAZZA:  They purged her.

ROWAN:  They purged her and they did a perjury in the court. They like

JAZZA:  Oh, oh, they poked it. Got it. 

ROWAN:  Yes.

JAZZA:  Is that perjury?

ROWAN:  I don't know how to do firms. So they—

JAZZA:  They committed perjury.

ROWAN:  They committed perjury. They did a perjury. And we're essentially in court, they said that Miles had been the one that came up with the ideas for Alpha, that they all saw him in this bar, the Glass Onion that they frequented together writing on this napkin, and it was all Miles, Miles, Miles Miles, because he clearly had power over all of them, whether that was – Bankrolling them.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  He'd helped them. And he also had the power to destroy them. So basically, their greed kind of was definitely an influence in this.

JAZZA:  The problem was and the reason that Andi wasn't able to claim her rights over this company, is because she didn't have the napkin. Or so she thought because after she lost the rights of the company, she ended up finding it in a bookcase. No, in one of—

ROWAN:  Maybe—

JAZZA:  —In one of her diaries.

ROWAN:  Yeah. Maybe she should like flick, had a flick through them. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, she should have looked through some of her previous works. And she ends up finding it. Doesn't take a photo of the napkin. Oh, no, as evidence that would have been useful. She puts the napkin in an envelope, then takes a selfie with the envelope, not the napkin, and then sends that email to all of the people saying, hey, guess what? I've got you all fucked now. And because of that, we—that is why she's dead. A mess.

ROWAN:  Yeah, it was—it was said to be suicide, but essentially someone put her in her car and turned like blocked off the exhaust, and so free and kind of like staged it as a suicide. But Helen, her sister like convinced, knowing that she had like almost one that she could turn all this around. What—why would she do that? It doesn't make sense. She must have been killed.

JAZZA:  Benoit ends up convincing Helen to go to this private island, dressed and disguised as her sister—

ROWAN:  Because at this point—

JAZZA:  Despite the fact he says, they're probably going to try and kill you. I can't be held responsible.

ROWAN:  Because nobody knows her sister's dead at this point, other than—

JAZZA:  Yes.

ROWAN:  —the killer who will know as Benoit points out.

JAZZA:  Of course.

ROWAN:  As soon as she turns up, it's going to be like this person is going to know that you are not this, but because they know that they've killed you.

JAZZA:  And then we then see the first half of the movie from Helen's perspective. So she's going around finding motives and objectives for each of the people they're on the island, and find legitimate like motifs for everybody who is there. So everyone could have wanted to kill Andi.

ROWAN:  And it's also very funny, because sometimes when we really see what's happened earlier in the movie, we just pan out slightly. And she's just been there the whole time. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  So when Benoit was snooping, she was snooping between the hundred different bush.

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  Which I really enjoyed. And also we've seen the—she makes a reference to the fact that like, you know, the motive means opportunity, like a little grid, and she says, oh, this is really like, clue you must be really good at Clue. And Ben was like, I hate that game. It's—I'm so bad at dumb things. Like I—like running around, like checking boxes. And that's like exactly what they end up doing during this. And that she really helps with, and I think that again, this is a pattern that happens within like Knives Out. And this one where he's sort of helped by this woman who almost is like, more competent than him in a lot of ways, or like seems to like catch connections or like, but he's not trying to take credit for those actions. He's like, if he solves it himself like he does with the original Gillian Flynn murder mystery. He's excited that he managed to do it. But if he needs to rely on someone else, it's not like a Holmes, Watson situation, where Holmes is just like, I'm so much smarter than you and go fuck yourself.

JAZZA:  Yeah. He's like, you're actually quite good at it.

ROWAN:  It's like, yes, yes, it's worked together. So like, the fact that he immediately ran when the lights went out to try and find Andi/Helen, is this idea of like, he does have this genuine sort of care. And he does actually care about like, he's not going to lie to her about it being dangerous. He's going to—like all of these things to me, I'm really like the move away from the sort of either hard-boiled detective or the like, emotionless genius or like all this stuff. I like the idea that he's allowed to be like caring. And just like a nice dude. 

JAZZA:  Hearing you say that reminds me of the Doctor Who, doctor-companion relationship that often happens. And I quite like—

ROWAN:  You're right.

JAZZA:  —that he's getting—

ROWAN:  That is the energy.

JAZZA:  Yeah. And I think that this is what seems to be developing. When Benoit Blanc has like a character, and hopefully we get to see that as that con—as this continues. Where he has an assistant that kind of like cycles in, and they all—they've all so far, about something that he lacks. 

ROWAN:  Yes.

JAZZA:  And like, compliment him. And that's something that you see very often with the Doctor Who kind of like energy as well.

ROWAN:  Oh shit. Now you've cracked it, you've cracked the code.

JAZZA:  I've cracked the code. So we get to the point where Helen, as we know now has been shot. We thought that she's dead. But no, of course, a pocketbook stopped the bullet.

ROWAN:  Classic.

JAZZA:  What the fuck was that pocketbook made out of?

ROWAN:  You know, Andi's diary, they hold many secrets Napkins. I thought for a second she just bought a bulletproof vest because she was like the people will kill me on this island. Why would I not bring a bulletproof vest, I'm not an idiot. But instead, she was like, don't worry, my dead sis would protect me. And so we realized like that they discovered the motives and the little flick book.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And all of them seem to have had a motive to kill Andi, to get rid of Andi. So like Klear this energy source.

JAZZA:  The hydrogen

ROWAN:  Hydrogen energy source like it needs to work because, Lionel, for example, the scientist has sort of backed it within his work for the company, Claire, the politician has agreed to like build a factory for it within her constituent area. We have this PR statement that we heard about earlier from Birdie is about the use of sweatshops within the company, which leads to the incredible exchange between Birdie and Peg, where Peg like wait, do you think sweatshops are where they make sweatpants? And Birdie looks at like, yes? And Peg's like, oh my god. 

JAZZA: To be fair If you didn't know? 

ROWAN:  That might be what you assume you're like, oh, yeah, they said that they were going to use sweatshops. It just made sense to me. And so there is you know, Miles has put money into this company, and is making Birdie take the fall by doing this PR statement. Duke is like seeing that Miles'sTwitch is getting—

JAZZA:  His YouTube channel—his YouTube channel is dying. He needs to be taken off. He needs to be basically be put on Alpha news. 

ROWAN:  Yes. He wants to get in—get into the news network. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And Whiskey is like trying to persuade Miles for that to happen, but he doesn't like if you know, if he crosses Miles, then it's not going to happen. He needs to try and prove himself. So all of them have this motive to like prove themselves to Miles by taking out Andi who's going to be this really big threat because she's about to expose the napkin for real. And so yeah, all just it—it's all looking and not—not like an easy solve if if we're looking for one motive from one person.

JAZZA:  Yeah, exactly. This is where I ended the Second Act. 

ROWAN:  Yes.

JAZZA:  And I don't think we named the Second Act, but just in case you didn't get, it was the party and its aftermath.

ROWAN:  Yes. I mean longtime listeners to the podcast will know, this is always an act. New-time listeners. Every gay movie that you ever watch will have a party and its aftermath. We will find one—one of them has had every single

JAZZA:  And then I actually—when you think about it isn't life just one big party and its aftermath? 

ROWAN:  Sure.

JAZZA:  Think about it. Think about it.

ROWAN: Yeah.

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JAZZA:  My final act, I've called the reveal, because this is the classic. Yeah.

ROWAN:  That is very inventive of you. 

JAZZA:  I—I thank you so much. Hey, I—did really well on the first one. So Helen is not dead. They fake her death. So she puts hot sauce on her chest—

ROWAN:  Yes.

JAZZA:   —where the bullet wound would be.

ROWAN:  Where blood would be.

JAZZA:  Everyone's like, oh my god.

ROWAN:  Another Check offs, hot sauce again. 

JAZZA:  Checkov’s hot sauce.

ROWAN:  There's a lot of little of little thing—

JAZZA:  Checkov’s was everywhere in this movie.

ROWAN:  Yeah, truly. There's a lot of just little random things that crop up as like a little joke that you're like, okay, this is gonna be relevant later. But it's interesting to just find out how. It's like, oh, of course, the hot sauce is blood. Why not?

JAZZA:  And everybody goes back into the Glass Onion. And the—

ROWAN:  Snooping in the office.

JAZZA:  Snooping in the office. Oh, yeah.

ROWAN:  While Blanc is like, let me reveal everything to you people.

JAZZA:  Blanc starts unpacking everything, and reveals that dun dun dun, it was miles all along. 

ROWAN:  For both bloody murders.

JAZZA:  For both of them. For both the murder of Andy and Duke, who I'm sure you've forgotten about because I had at this point. So he's the men's rights—

ROWAN:  Activists, every single time. I think that we remember that Duke is the men's rights activist at this point.

JAZZA:  No, I wouldn't want to assume.

ROWAN:  So Miles knew that Andi had the napkin because it turns out he uses fax. Again, checkov’s, fax machine. And his fax shown simultaneously to every fax machine that he owns all over the world. And he got the email, fax over to him. So he's like, okay, well, yeah. And that's again—the Glass Onion, it's so obvious. There seems like there's layers, but it's completely transparent. Yeah, obviously the one he was going to kill it. Not some second person who was trying to do it for Miles. Miles just did it. That was just Miles's thing. And again, Chekhov's blue car, isn't like, which means that the reason why he called Duke, is because Duke saw miles leaving—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —Andi's. And at the time, obviously, they don't know Andi's dead, so Miles wouldn't necessarily have thought anything of it, but tells Miles at the party just before he dies. Oh my god, there's a news article on his phone.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Says, oh, shit, Andi's dead. And Miles knows it's just a matter of time

JAZZA:  Google notifications.

ROWAN:  Truly, again. Oh, everything always come in full circle And so Miles is like think quick. I gotta get rid of this guy who's the witness to seeing me drive away from this house. The only person who saw me in my extremely ostentatious car and put some—put some little pineapple in his drink.

JAZZA:  And Duke doesn't fuck with pineapple. 

ROWAN:  He doesn't fuck with pineapple. 

JAZZA:  And literally dies

ROWAN:  Definitely allergic to pineapple. I don't fuck with pineapple, but it just makes my mouth feel weird. You know what I mean? Wouldn't kill me if I had said I don't fuck—

JAZZA:  What would kill you just for future reference?

ROWAN:  A knife. A knife. for future reference. But you know well, yeah, I'll deal with it when that time comes. And also Duke at this point, tries to use it to his advantage and be like, hey, how about that Alpha News? Am I right? Remember how I saw you driving away from a crime scene? And so Miles poisons him with pineapple, takes Duke's gun, uses it to shoot Helen. He's like well done me, double murder.  No— now I'm very rich. No one will ever catch me.

JAZZA:  Yeah. So at this point, Helen has been upstairs and has found the the red envelope with a napkin which was like hidden in Miles's office books.

ROWAN:  Because he's an idiot.

JAZZA:  Because he's an idiot, which we find out later. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Helen walks down, takes out the napkin, and shows it to everybody. Has she taken a photo of the napkin? No.

ROWAN:  No.

JAZZA:  Has anybody—

ROWAN:  Why would anyone take a photo

JAZZA:  No. But she goes haha. Look the napkin that proves that my dead sister came up with everything. And then Miles goes up to her with like one of those blowtorch things and completely destroys it with—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  —with fire.

ROWAN:  Yeah. This napkin that as we have—as you have mentioned, has some very important could never be thought of by anyone else.

JAZZA:  Scalable crypto.

ROWAN:  Scale that crypto. So essentially the evidence has gone against Miles. And it's a very ransom from Knives Out moment. Again not to spoil that maybe, but I just have. So what do you have, a burned-up napkin?

JAZZA:  Yeah, and that's it. And everybody seems to be on Miles's side, they don't want to fuck with this. However Helen then start, it looks like she's just having a little bit of a— she's having a moment. She goes around, start smashing all of the glass. I don't—I still don't really understand why she's—she's throwing all the glass?

ROWAN:  Well, if you remember the disruptor's speech from earlier.

JAZZA:  Okay.

ROWAN:  It's like first of all, you destroy a little thing. And everyone gets behind you. Hence why everyone suddenly is like— Yeah. Fuck Miles. But when they—and then they smashed they just smart start smashing more and more

JAZZA:  Right. 

ROWAN:  And everyone else is like laughing because they're like this is fun. We're just destroying stuff for no reason other than it being fun. Whereas Andi, they're like, /Helen, the actual disrupter is like that bit in his speech where he says, and then you destroy the one thing, the big thing that no one wants you to destroy, and they'll hate you for it. 

JAZZA:  And it's the Mona Lisa.

ROWAN: The Mona Lisa. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, so with all of the Chekov's release mechanism, Helen starts building a bonfire from all of the stuff that she's destroyed. 

ROWAN:  Of course she does.

JAZZA:  And that obviously triggers the Mona Lisa's security mechanism. So she throws some of the Klear, which is the hydrogen stuff into the bonfire, which then gets sucked up into the vents and creates a big explosion, everything explodes, everything breaks. And then it's not really a fire, the scene looks like it's three flame throwers kind of like blowing either side of the Mona Lisa. And then Helen runs towards the release mechanism, shoves Miles out of the way, releases the mechanism, and then burns the Mona Lisa, and the Mona Lisa is now dead.

ROWAN:  I really like so—so the—the bit that we missed out slightly which is interesting because again, it's like a Benoit Blanc Knives Out mystery. And we were like, we just brush over the bit where he sort of like gave her the Klear in order to 

JAZZA:  Oh, yes, yeah. 

ROWAN:  But I think that's interesting, right? That it wasn't like his triumphant ending where he's like, and he—and I solved the mystery and that's the end. The ending is her getting this like vengeance. And so he gives her the Klear, like, puts in her hand, and at first, you don't see what he's given her. Although immediately, I was like, pointing at the screen. And my family were like, what—what are you doing, and I'm like, in my head, I was like Chekov's Klear. It's Chekov's Klear because earlier on shown and given a nugget, and he'd never given it, we've never seen him give it back. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And so I was like it's Chekov's fucking Klear. Benoit gives her Andi's the glass with Andi engraved on it, and says, all I can do I—there's nothing I can do, like, basically implying you—evidence destroyed, and also, this man is so powerful that he would get away with it. Like, so he gives her the glass and says, all I can give you is courage with alcohol. And that gives us something else, the Klear and like, and a reminder of why your sister walked away in the first place. And then she obviously decides what she's going to do. And this again, is really interesting, because these movies are like—there was not a detective who solves it and then gives it to the police like haha, police, you're not smart enough for this. He's like, the police won't do shit. He's like, the justice system is fucked, like the police can kind of hang around. But ultimately, like revenge and justice is a moral justice rather than like a justice system justice.

JAZZA:  And a poetic justice.

ROWAN:  And a poetic justice. And so he's like, I'm gonna give you the tools for you to be able to create your own justice to the like, well, the two women that he's kind of helped Martha and Helen. And this is exactly the same as kind of the energy where he's like, essentially, I'm going to leave now. I'm telling you, from my point of view, as a detective, like, I believe you, but we don't have the evidence and there's nothing like this man is too powerful. Here's some tools that you might use to destroy him in another way, which essentially is like, there is almost nothing that will take this man down. But like, the reputation of his big discovery, that he is like, killed this woman over, destroys one of the most famous paintings in the entire world, and his own house, like that, 's gonna fuck his company. Like that's gonna destroy everything that he has killed for. And I liked that poetic justice element of this, but it's not just the end doesn't just like look how clever Benoit is.

JAZZA:  And most has been saying like one of the things he says as he's introduced earlier is, I want to create something that will be mentioned in the same breath as the Mona Lisa and his name is— life goal. 

ROWAN:  And then they just smoke cigars on the beach. And then the final shot is of Andi posed like the Mona Lisa on the beach with a like red kind of blood stain looking out with this look that again, is that classic Mona Lisa thing of like, is she smiling, is she serious, is she sad 

She's kind of like all of the oh so well.  And that is the movie. That's—

JAZZA:  Doo doo doo. 

ROWAN:  That's the Glass Onion. There are so many things like we need to stop now. Because otherwise, we'll go over time.  There was so many little—there are so many little details that people have talked about in this movie that like some of them I noticed, and some of them I didn't. So there's like paintings on the wall that foreshadow what's going on. There's a Rothko, which has been hung upside down because Miles is a fucking idiot. And like, he's not even hung these like rich like, it's essentially just like Rian Johnson hates billionaires is the thesis of this movie. He just hates rich people in general. And I love that for him. There's also the fact that Andi, Cassandra, and Helen are like two characters within the story of the Trojan War. And like their story, the Trojan war mirrors what happens in the movie. So like, Cassandra is this seer who is—has a gift of prophecy, but his curse, but no one's ever believed her? And I'm like, yeah, that's literally Andi. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Being like, can you all not see that this man is an idiot who's going to destroy everything, and everyone's like, no, we love him. He's giving us money. And then Helen is—she starts the Trojan War by deserting her husband for the Trojan causing the fall of Troy, essentially bringing down an empire in the same way as her bringing down this like financial and tech empire of Miles Bron. And I just really like, just these little weird details that are almost like little nuggets of they don't mean anything to the story, like you don't need to know them to figure it out or to like, to—

JAZZA:  For the depth.

ROWAN:  To look out for the depth that it has. It's really interesting to me.

[theme]

ROWAN:  So, I think with—we're at the point of which we can—

JAZZA:  We're at rainbow flag.

ROWAN:  We're at rainbow flags. We are at the point that we are deciding how many stripes of the six-stripe rainbow flag we're gonna give it, and which colors. Jazza, what are you doing? What it—where are you going with this? What did you think at this movie?

JAZZA:  So I feel like my duty as a co-host of this podcast, is to think about this as a queer movie. 

ROWAN:  Yes, I'm happy for you to do that.

JAZZA:  This is the Queer Movie Podcast.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  And—

ROWAN:  I guess. 

JAZZA:  —And on that criteria, it is—it is a great movie.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  I'm—I'm not as into kind of like this genre as you are. But I really appreciated this movie, it is a fun watch. I don't think it's as good as Knives Out. But I have a bitter taste in my mouth around the queer catching. And so I'm only going to give it two, and I'm going to give it some healing. Because that is supposedly, that's kind of what happened with Helen when she comes back from the dead, but not. And I'm gonna give it some nature because it's got an onion.

ROWAN:  That—I feel you're gonna go with a beautiful private island setting, but the onion also is nature.

JAZZA:  So those two colors are orange for healing and green for nature.

ROWAN:  Stunning. I would agree with you. If we're— judging it as a queer movie., it really is lacking. We decided to do it because of the conversation around it. And because I am hoping that in future Knives Out mystery. 

JAZZA:  We see more Benoit.

ROWAN:  This will be like made explicit, and we'll be able to look back at this and be like, okay, cool. This was like the first time we got introduced to like his husband, and you know, it got continued onwards. And it's—it is actually clear. So I would—I would agree with you that like it—it's very few black, very few stripes in that way. I, however, I'm gonna give this like a four or five for just enjoyment levels for me. I feel like the ADHD for these movies, like it really vibes because it's like, hey, it's fast-paced, there's not a moment where something isn't happening, like, let's go, let's go. And I love that. But I also think I was saying to you that I also didn't enjoy it as much as Knives Out as a standalone like mystery movie. However, I think as a next installment in a series, where we are getting an exploration of these themes and ideas that Rian Johnson seems to be having within these mysteries. And we are learning more about this detective who is like competent, but caring, who is wanting to empower the people who've—are on the side of injustice, like all of these elements without making it about him. Like that, to me is fascinating. And so I think as a continuation of a series that might have more installments, this was great, there's really feel like it furthers that mission rather than being necessarily as strong of a standalone movie as Knives Out was which I think is like stunning. So yeah, I'm gonna say, or the ones I'm gonna give it, sunlight it was on an island. Nature, there's an onion.

JAZZA:  There's a yellow and green.

ROWAN:  Yes, yellow and green. We're gonna go healing because of yeah, the whole Helen healing thing. We're gonna do Spirit because it's got that cap. It's got that cap. And then if I'm giving like a I'm gonna like four and a half to five. Let's go with harmony simply because people do die in this. So I feel like giving it like—

JAZZA:  You're giving it everything but that.

ROWAN:  Yeah, everything but bright life, because I feel like she died.

JAZZA:  That's really easy.

ROWAN:  Yeah, that's all I need to do. 

JAZZA:  Perfect. Awesome. 

JAZZA:  Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, we ask that you consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join our queer movie club where we do watch along in our Discord every month, but that is the bare minimum. At higher levels, you can also get our movie recommendations and a monthly newsletter with the curation of all of the gay shit that we find on the internet.

ROWAN:  Thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us on the highest Patreon tier. you are rainbow parents, and we are so happy to have your support. Thank you so, so much.

JAZZA:  Thank , and please make sure that you follow and subscribe to the podcast so that you are notified when our next episode comes out. We have been Jazza John and Rowan Ellis. Were edited by Julia Schifini and are part of Multitude. Find more amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much my darling.

ROWAN:  Thank you pod. 

JAZZA:  Thanks pod. You've be in our pod. 

ROWAN:  Wow. Byee.

JAZZA:  Byee.

It's time for the Christmas episode! In which Rowan and Jazza discuss how Hallmark went from banning gay ads to making their own queer movies in three years flat. 

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

JAZZA:  Before we kick off this episode, just want to say a quick thank you so much to Jennifer and Toby who support us at the highest level of the rainbow parent on our Patreon. We love you um with the podcast.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—

ROWAN:  And worst—

JAZZA:  —in LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN:  I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA:  And I—I am JAZZA: John.

ROWAN:  In each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA:  This episodes genre is—

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Queer Hallmark. 

JAZZA:  Ho.Ho.Ho. Today we are going to be talking about how Hallmark, the company that does greeting cards, but also for some reason, also does movies have gone from banning gay ads, to producing queer movies of their own in three years flat? Also, the movie itself, which is called The Holiday Sitter.

ROWAN:  But before we get triggered by the mere mention of pancakes as the lead does in this movie, which is a scene. We will be going in. I'm so glad that Jazza has mentioned this in the intro, because we will be diving deep into that particular choice by the director and actor. Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA:  Rowan, I may actually have had the gayest month of my life.

ROWAN:  Oh, tell me everything.

JAZZA:  So I—

ROWAN:  Except like, like, tell me everything in about 60 seconds. Yeah, we got to get them on the episode.

JAZZA:  Yeah, I could tell you about the fact that I went to a Sugababes concert. And now wear their merch all of the time. I could tell you about the fact that I have moved to New York. But don't worry, there'll be lots of other opportunities—

ROWAN:  Stunning.

JAZZA:  —to us to be able to do that. I could tell you about the fact that in the last two weeks, I have gone on seven days. 

ROWAN:  Oh my.

JAZZA:  And I'm going on my eighth one this—

ROWAN:  With the same—

JAZZA:  —Evening.

ROWAN:  —person or seven different boy?

JAZZA:  No different types of students.

ROWAN:  All the—all the dwarfs.

ROWAN:  Snow White.

JAZZA:  I'm Snow White. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. But I'm instead going to tell you about the—one of the most embarrassing celebrity encounters I've ever had. When I was saying goodbye to London, one of my final nights out with friends was at the Glory Pub, which is in North London. And we were watching this drag show, and who happens to be beside me, but Bowen Yang from—

ROWAN:  No.

JAZZA:  SNL and—

ROWAN:  No.

JAZZA:  —And

ROWAN:  You're lying. 

JAZZA:  And—and Fire Island. Uh no.

ROWAN:  I can't believe

JAZZA:  It's real.

ROWAN: this story for the pod.

JAZZA:  I have— I have been keeping—

ROWAN:  That's incredible.

JAZZA:  —It for the pod. I obviously it like a couple of people . So this is a look at the 60 seconds. Someone went up to Bowen Yang and said, oh my god, are you Bowen Yang, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, I can't go over to him now. But then that person went from Bowen Yang to me, and was like are you Jazza John?

ROWAN:  No, wait, this exchange?

JAZZA:  I don't think so.

ROWAN:  Oh my god, I imagine. 

JAZZA:  Because I was just like, well, this is ridiculous that this happened, because I haven't put it—I've put like one video on the internet in the last year. And then I was like—I genuinely built up the courage to like say hi but like, I just think you're making really good stuff. Keep doing it. So I'm about to leave, and I'm like It's now or never. I go into Bowen Yang, and I go, hey, I think you're making great stuff. And he went, thank you so much. I try my best. And I went, oh, no, don't try your best. Make sure they get their money's worth.

ROWAN:  What?Oh, no, this really took so many turns, Jazza.

JAZZA:  I don't know. And then I just—and then I just 

ROWAN:  That, I don't know.

JAZZA:  And then—and then he followed me to the bus stop because he was leaving with his friends.

ROWAN:  Oh no.

JAZZA:  And thank God, he didn't got on the same bus as me. But it was—it was terrible. It was really horrific. And so now we can't be friends, because I'm just going to be replaying that in my head for the rest of my life.

ROWAN:  Oh, and like what's so wild is that, you had like an actual professional link to this man that you could have mentioned. This—

JAZZA:  Yeah. Oh.

ROWAN:  —this fucking podcast, you.

JAZZA:  Oh, I'm not saying I've done episodes and reviewed your acting. I'm not telling him that in the midddle of the club.

ROWAN:  Yes should have been like, but we could just have been like, really, really love your stuff. I—I am like a film journalist. You can say that, podcaster, that's what you do. And you could have been like—

JAZZA:  Okay.

ROWAN:  —we—we—we specifically talk about queer movies and we bloody loved Fire Island, and you deserve—

JAZZA:  Yeah. No—I.

ROWAN:  —everything you got from it. 

JAZZA:  No.

ROWAN:  Because it's true. We did.

JAZZA:  So in another—in another universe, he could have been a guest on the podcast, but I think it's that. It's not happening.

ROWAN:  Oh don't bring that into the—don't like the worst time and when that didn't happen, because you said just the worst sentence that could have come out of your mouth. Yeah, classic.

JAZZA:  Just made no sense. Anyway, what's that gayest thing you did?

ROWAN:  Um, I don't really think I can top that at all. What absolute chaos. Oh, I'll tell you what to do—I did, I—I sent my first four chapters and a full outline to my agent of the fiction, like book I'm writing, and she came back and she really, really liked it. And every single comment, there were some actual comments that were useful to the, you know, the writing and everything. But a lot of the comments were just hurt. Like I was clicking on them really nervously. This was a comment where she'll be like, terrible, take this out. But instead, it was just hoping like, low mood, and like, even—even in space, the gays do be doing this. And I'm like, oh, I love you so much. So it was um—I had a really good, good gay feedback from, from my agent on that.

JAZZA:  Amazing. Fantastic. I can't wait to read some of your space opera, it's gonna be great.

ROWAN:  Well, I mean, now you said that on air, we got Julio, can we clip it? If you don't, you broken the law. That's how this works.

JAZZA:  I can't wait to read whatever you're writing.

ROWAN:  At least one sentence of it.

[theme]

JAZZA:  We are not American. And therefore Hallmark movies aren't really a staple of our culture. Although I did just move to New York. And so I'm a proper New Yorker now. That's why Rowan has been wonderful and gone away, and done some top tier research on what um Hallmark, and why.

ROWAN:  I'm gonna get to that in a second. But just to let you know what else be going on in this podcast. It's the same as every episode, in case this is your first time joining. After that, we're going to be reviewing the plot, splitting the film into three acts as we do. Because you know, the three act structure is so universal. As such, we will be spoiling all of this movie. So feel free to watch it if you really want to, and come back to us when you seen it. But to be honest, it—it follows a very classic formula. It's very predictable. So you won't be missing much, like you can already probably guess the plot.

JAZZA:  Can I just say the—the depth of meaning in that short pause between you can watch it, and if you want to was profound.

ROWAN:  I say what I mean. And I mean, what I say, Jazza.

JAZZA:  Without further ado, let's find the funds to defer our flight to Hawaii three times in the week before Christmas and review The Holiday Sitter.

[theme]

ROWAN:  Okay, so, Hallmark, we need to talk about Hallmark. Hallmark is one of those brands in the US, which has a very long history. But it's very interesting history that I feel like not a lot of people necessarily know the beginnings of, although you can definitely see the tendrils of what it used to be still in that I would say. So I feel like when people hear the word Hallmark, they think of romcoms. Primarily, they think of the original movies. They think of it being kind of like low budget, fine, too bad acting. And actually probably the same goes to script as well. Zero creativity in terms of directorial choices. Potentially because there simply isn't time. So this is all I would say pretty accurate. Like the stereotype is kind of accurate. It's— it is a lot of rom coms. A typical Hallmark release cost just $2 million to produce, which is—

JAZZA:  Oh wow.

ROWAN:  —essentially nothing. That is 100 times less than, like blockbusters that you would see right. So like, No Way Home, for example, I know it's a $200 million budget. So quite literally a hundred times more expensive, which you know, you would expect. But 2 mill—2 million sounds like a lot until you actually get into the fact you having to pay for literally everything and everyone who works on that movie, and that suddenly, the money just goes. And so it's no surprise that because of that low budget, they are attempting to fit things into a very tight timeline, especially because Hallmark will produce like dozens of movies just for their Christmas season. So the filming itself apparently takes just 15 days for a typical Hallmark movie.

JAZZA:  Oh my, that's wild.

ROWAN:  Which means no fancy camera angles, hence why the directing is pretty bland. No kind of pushing to overtime. Very few retakes, apparently. So there's really no room for the actors to do much like figuring out different choices for their character like anything like that. It feels like it's just like, okay, go, go go. And then the editing team often has about two weeks to edit the entire movie. 

JAZZA:  You're joking. 

ROWAN:  Nope. That is what I read a few—there's been a few deep dives actually within probably the last like five years. A bunch of them have been done. And this is kind of what gets talked about. There's a lot of like anonymous insider knowledge and like leaked info, which is all very clandestine. And so yeah, it's—it's been—the— the plot of these movies has been especially the Christmas ones because it's not just— Hallmarks not just for Christmas gang. It's a—it's a whole year round.

JAZZA:  And capitalizing all year round.

ROWAN:  Truly. And so the—here's the plot. This is the—this is the plot. This is the joke, right? You've got a typical city dwelling rat woman, who loves to do business and has to come back to her family town and or some other kind of small town for some reason, where she meets herself, the small town hunky local bakery owner/lumberjack/architect/dad. And at first off, they couldn't be more different, they do—they don't see eye to eye, but then they find they have common ground. And at the end they're kissing. You know, it's this—it's all very cute. You can probably see Jazza, as someone who has watched this film. How that is essentially been superimposed on to this movie as well. This is a— this is not like a it's a gay Hallmark movie, therefore we're going to treat it differently. The main character in this is just the city dwelling rat woman.

JAZZA:  Um, yeah, 100% like the opening scenes of oh, I'm—I'm here and I'm overworked. And I'm married to my job. And I never even think about love. I was just like, I don't know, the familiarity I actually quite enjoyed, to be completely honest. And that's what the appeal is.

ROWAN:  This is what the appeal is. And this is the appeal of a lot of these genres, where things—which I think a lot of people think about when I say these genres, a lot of people think about romance, right? They think the idea of like this set, plot, this set, stock characters, all of this kind of stuff. And I think that there is this element of we know what's going to happen, we—therefore there is a satisfaction and the payoff when that does happen, right? I think gets looked down on I would say a lot, particularly as a more like women oriented stereotypically kind of genre, because you could say the exact same thing about a bunch of male dominated genres of like action movies, of who like murder, who done it type things. Although I would argue that they have actually the strongest like I used to work at a publisher, and in terms of crime and thriller, middle aged women were actually the highest proportion of that audience for book content. But yeah, because of the stereotypes, you—I feel like the idea that it stopped, as you said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. But we—you know, the criticisms of these particular Hallmark movies are not because their stock romances, let's put it that way. So I mentioned before about these interesting little tendrils that come and you sort of hinted at it earlier, when you talked about the idea of banning a gay ad. So for those who don't know, essentially, in December of 2019, the channel stopped airing these ads for a wedding registry, like an online wedding registry, called Solo, that included like two brides kissing, because they had complaints that this was like not family friendly, like promoted same sex marriage, whatever that means. 

JAZZA:  They were actually lobbied by a—by an organization called 1 million.

ROWAN:  They're the worst. Just the worst. 

JAZZA:  Again, they're not nice people. 

ROWAN:  But they did very quickly, like within the same month, like there was a very quick turnaround, reverse that decision and actually reinstated the adverts. And went further than that to say that they were going to work with GLAAD, which is I'm sure everyone who listens to the podcast knows this, is kind of like a media monitoring organization, I guess specifically for LGBTQ plus media to create more inclusive programming. And I think that, that idea of hey, how have they gone from banning these ads to doing a movie like this in like three years, is because of the fact that they had this proactive kind of immediate response to them banning this ad on banning it, but saying we're actually going to work on our programming, that meant that they could be putting out queer content very quickly afterwards. Other than the fact that obviously, they took—take about seven days to write, shoot and edit the thing. But this is not very surprising that there might have been this initial backlash to this ad because it is hugely popular with red states. Yes. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  American conservatives, because the colors are the opposite round in the UK. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  So ratings for Hallmark programs, for example, a higher by 50% or more outside of the top 10 TV markets, which are very blue state centered like New York, LA, San Fran, Boston, Chicago, things like that. It's very like known that this is a kind of within, kind of central to right leading America. And a reason for this might be the fact that initially, this was originally a Christian specific set of programming. For a very long time, it was like all religious and then slowly, it's—the company started to have more involvement or be bought by or be part owned by other companies. And so the most significant ones being Hallmark Entertainment, and the Jim Henson Company. And so for a while it was like the Hallmark and Henson like network until it got rebranded as just Hallmark. And so for a while they're like the—the—uh Hallmark and Henson network was what they were called in 1999. And they decreased the religious programming but there was still like, four hours a week, day and more on like Sundays and religious holidays and stuff. And so it's slowly been getting to the point where I don't think anyone associates Hallmark with specifically like Christian worship, kind of like programming. But this idea of it being very right leaning, is still somehow baked it in a way it's still something that people feel a connection to, because of these ideas that go along with thatof like traditional family values, and like steering clear of political themes and stories that go against religion and like all of these things that might be alienating to an audience, he was more right leaning.

JAZZA:  And a critique of the main character very often being from coastal cities where it's more socially liberal. 

ROWAN:  Exactly.

JAZZA:  They go out more, they date more liberally, and like I was watching this, and it felt like I was watching propaganda.

ROWAN:  Hmm. Yes.

JAZZA:  And it felt so much like heteronormative propaganda of oh, yeah, move out of the city, move close to your parents, have a nuclear family, like literally, the—the romantic interest does the sign of a cross on he—on himself, seeing un-ironic— —yeah, it was—it was a very odd watch fom that perspective.

ROWAN:  It's really interesting. And when you think about the fact that this is also that kind of how women are treated within these productions, as well, I feel like there's two very different potential agendas in making women learn the big lesson to be, that they should care more about family and children than they should about their work. And then also, gay people are good when they want to be like us and are very much in the heteronormative sort of like framework. I think both of those are really interesting things ot essentially gotten to, like that end has gotten to by the same means always, like the same storyline is—is kind of pigeon holing both of these demographics of our protagonist that we can see within Hallmark movies. But yeah, so now—now this is—this is kind of what we have. This is one of the very few Hallmark movies that have queer sort of characters in the forefront. A lot of people have been calling this one the first. I think it's like the—the—what do they calling it. 

ROWAN AND JAZZA: It's the first—

JAZZA:  Hallmark produced one. L—gbt leaders is not.

ROWAN:  So a lot of people have been talking about this being their first gay Christmas movie. But actually, they had another one last year with Jonathan Bennett in it called The Christmas House. But it was—it's an ensemble, kind of lead role, right? It's not like—

JAZZA:  Oh right.

ROWAN:  —there's the one lead. So it's like a bunch of—it's like two brothers come back. And it's like the story of the whole family doing their house up for Christmas. And he is in that, and he has like a hus—an existing husband. And so it's like the stories of these different couples, and their trials and tribulations and whatever. So it's not, I would say, it's not technically the first if we're going with like having gay leads at all, but it seems to be the first one where it's like, this is the sole romantic—

JAZZA:  The central plot.

ROWAN:  —rom-com type lead. And it's very interesting considering how many hundreds—no, thousands of these movies have been made, that we're only just getting to this point. And in fact, there was only a lesbian kiss for the first time last year, in any of their media. So—

JAZZA:  Well, that's because lesbians aren't 

ROWAN:  And that is true. We just come out as like a little ghost. Or like uh—

JAZZA:  Exactly.

ROWAN:  —or forg—or forgotten about coworker/friend like in this movie.

JAZZA:  Yeah,yeah,yeah actually she was there—

ROWAN:  Well, she was on it.

JAZZA:  —at the very, very beginning and then—

ROWAN:  She was around—

JAZZA:  —and then never appeared again.

ROWAN:  —and then never again. So shall we dig into the—the movie itself?

JAZZA:  I'd love it. Let's go.

[theme]

JAZZA:  So whenever we do these reviews, we will split the plot into three acts. I open this act with—well, I'm calling the first act Straight People Adopt to (?), because I think I actually genuinely forgot that straight people are— to adopt. You know, what—

ROWAN:  Oh my god.

JAZZA:  — I really appreciated being—being reminded of that by this movie, you know.

ROWAN:  I love it raises awareness, you know what I mean?

JAZZA:  Yeah, we're not just laughing, we're learning.

ROWAN:  I love that. So yeah, I mean, I—I've kind of been deferring to you on the Act names recently. And I'm happy to continue doing that because I feel you come up with some absolute bangers. Unless there's any that I suddenly come to be in a flash of inspiration. So yeah, essentially, act one begins at the beginning with Sam, the gay scrooge, who I—I have written in my notes I predict will learn to love kids. And—

JAZZA:  I mean, don't jump to conclusions, Rowan.

ROWAN:  I want to know.

JAZZA:  You never know what's gonna happen.

ROWAN:  I feel like it would have been a really bold move for this movie to end with him being like, yeah, I really like you. But I just don't—I just don't see myself ever wanting kids. But—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —seemed like a nice guy. Ready to never see you again. So.

JAZZA:  Do you remember his name?

ROWAN:  It's Sam, the gay scrooge. 

JAZZA:  No, no, no. Sorry, the name of the guy who he dates at the very beginning. 

ROWAN:  The very beginning, no. 

JAZZA:  So he's on—so we—we open up, he's on a date in New York. We're in New York, obviously. Oh, my God, I'm so stressed. I've been working so hard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Dr. Vance DeBlane, it turns out.

ROWAN:  Oh, I didn't 

JAZZA:  And he's like, um, I love this. I—I love this and it was downhill from here. Dr. Vance DeBlane turns up, and he goes I'm sorry, surgery overrun—

ROWAN:  Classic.

JAZZA:  I was busy doing like brain surgery on somebody.

ROWAN:  Classic shit that someone would say if they were pretending to be a doctor. I don't trust this man as far as I can throw him.

JAZZA:  Exactly. And I think he also introduces himself as hello, I'm Dr. Van DeBlane.

ROWAN:  MD.

JAZZA:  Uh, MD. And then he starts talking about ah, I am really looking forward to the holidays because of my little niece. Here's my little niece, and Sam, we get character development, Sam doesn't like kids. And as you said, is he going to learn to love them?

ROWAN:  Oh it's like a niece and nephew, because he's like, oh, there's oh—there's two of them. And I really felt—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —an affinity with Sam in that moment, because I to look at children just like a photo of a child. And I'm like, that could be a stock image. Like, I am like, wow, they look like kids. Like to get at least give me a video of them doing—

JAZZA:  Knowing—knowing the budget?

ROWAN:  —something fun.

JAZZA:  Knowing the budget, it probably was. 

ROWAN:  Oh, that's sad. Imagine if it still had like stock photo across it, like the watermark was—was still there. Then we come close to take off the watermark.

JAZZA:  I'd love that. Especia—if—If it was like a Hallmark

ROWAN:  Oh my that'd be great.

JAZZA:  It's like, like in the photo set.

ROWAN:  It's just—it's just a photo of a Hallmark card.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Oh my gosh.

JAZZA:  Someone—someone hired us.

ROWAN:  So this movie does something really interesting. And I don't know there is because there were two guys and they got confused. But it gives us the point of view of the other character. And I feel like a lot of the times in rom coms traditionally, it's like you follow one love interest out of the two. So someone I guess tell us if you like Rowan, you fall. That's what they do in every Hallmark movie. But that was very interesting to me, because we also get Jason who's on a phone call to his mom, who literally lives across the street. Incredible. And to really contrast him with Sam, we have him going out of his door and immediately getting into a snowball fight with some—what I thought were random kids on the street, but I—

JAZZA:  Get out of here kids.

ROWAN:  —like nieces and nephews because he's fun and festive and also spontaneous. And at this point, I put Hallmark movies have no personality to the directing, which upon further research does make sense. But yeah, the script is essentially just a series of pieces of exposition. One after another with absolutely zero subtext, or knew what's going on whatsoever. So you literally have like the sister of the gay scrooge, Sam realizing, oh, no honey, the surrogate that we have for our baby has gone into labor two weeks early, because the baby was meant to be born in New Year's, but it is in fact Christmas. Oh no. What we do? We will have to find someone to look after our existing children who are 13 and one younger, and he is not old enough to look after his own. Okay, let's go through everyone we know. We could ask mom except—and they just—they just have this that's the scene. It's just them actually having a discussion which you know, is realistic, but isn't interesting. And so it's just the most like exposition-heavy thing you've ever seen. Which gets I'm going to hit maybe it's just my opinion, gets very boring, very quickly.

ROWAN:  Oh, I—what—I don't know. I feel like we can summarize quite quickly what all of the exposition that happened—

ROWAN:  Yeah maybe they should summarize it very quickly, Jazza,

JAZZA:  —Yeah. Okay, maybe. In like the first— in—in the first like 45 minutes, it's all exposition. So they're gonna hav—the baby is early. They need somebody to— Babysit them. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  That's—yeah, the Cis-hets, they need someone to babysit their children. Can we ask the neighbor next door who actually is already helping us out with painting, and we know is really good with kids? No, of course not. Let's ask my stran—not strange, but my—my gay brother who hates children, who's about to go on holiday. And I'm going to call him up and make him cancel his flight or move his flight or whatever because he's meant to be going to Honolulu. The brother says yes because siblings they have like beef with one another. And she's—she's calling in like a favor that she did like 20 years ago or whatever.

ROWAN: Classic. And then hilariously not to spoil anything. But that neighbor who's really good with kids just ends up looking after the kids the entire time anyway. 

JAZZA:  Yeah,

ROWAN:  Almost like he could've just done it to begin with.

JAZZA:  I have a question, Rowan.

ROWAN:  Yeah?

JAZZA:  If you had—if you were in this situation and you are about to get on a flight to Honolulu, and your—your sibling calls up and goes, hi, can you look after the ki— can you not go on the flight and look after the kids? And if you don't, I'll tell mom and dad about that time I covered for you in like, in year six. Would you do it?

ROWAN:  I will say, go fuck yourself. I'd say—

JAZZA:  That—that is what real—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  That is what real sibling

ROWAN:  I would pick—pick one of the three siblings. I have a beer Elia and or Ben and or Mac. No. I'm simply getting on plane, and hire a babysitter.

JAZZA:  Yeah, maybe pay somebody.

ROWAN:  The end of story. Like, you—there's not really much else to do with this. Also, like, was there a reason they can just take the kids with them? I'm sure they got explained in the exposition that I slept through. But um—

JAZZA:  Is it because of the play? There was a play that's happening.

ROWAN:  Oh, of course, they couldn't miss the play. Which the mom had forgotten about, so maybe that wasn't it? So at this point, I also wanted to ask some questions of you. 

JAZZA:  Oh.

ROWAN:  What's going on with Hallmark and capitalism? Like do they think capitalism is bad? And also like he specifically has a job where he just looks after rich people, it's like, is it like 

JAZZA:  No, no, no. They think—let me tell you.

ROWAN:  Okay.

JAZZA:  They love capitalism but in terms of like small businesses.

ROWAN:  Ohh.

JAZZA:  So they love the idea of like a mom at pop shop—

ROWAN:  Bootstraps. Yeah.

JAZZA:  —or like, yeah, exactly. bootstraps. They hate the idea of somebody like working in tech, working in something that doesn't have intrinsic value like me—like media, like they have critic—

ROWAN:  I thought you were going to say like me. Like yeah, that's a fair. You do—you do work for the machine.

JAZZA:  If you weren't able to merge, don't be my employer. But if you're not able to explain it to like somebody in the 1940s, then it's not a real job in their eyes. 

ROWAN:  Yes. 

JAZZA:  Which is why all of—the all of the love interests are like ski instructors or carpenters.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Or teachers.

ROWAN:  It's like that meme that you won't know because it won't reach YouTube shorts yet, because it's on Tiktok.

JAZZA:  Of course. Yeah.

ROWAN:  About—

JAZZA:  What I watch—I watch Tiktok two weeks later on YouTube shorts because I'm an adult.

ROWAN:  Okay, so it might just have reached you, but there's this meme of like, people making less of what would take out a child from like the 1800s. And it's things like the Gangnam Style video, music video, and stuff like that. Like if you were to show it to them, they die. 

JAZZA:  Sure. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  But it's really funny because I saw one the other day where, the one girl starts with like something like Gangnam Style, and the other one just goes Diptheria. And then it goes.And this girl called, she's like, I think I fundamentally misunderstood the assignment, and you're just going back in the other person's like, I don't know, something like an ice rink that like we've built ourselves or something inside of a mall, and the other ones like cholera, and it just . So I feel like yeah, the answer is like, if it could—if it could take out a child in the 1800s, it's not a job were allowed to happen at Hallmark movie. That's the rule.

JAZZA:  No ice skating, or Korean pop stars. That's what we've decided. This is also the point where the propaganda really gets turned up to 10. And I take with it because we're introduced to an underaged, straight relationship blossoming. And I'm never going to tolerate Christians talking about gay people, grooming children because I'm sorry, this is making me uncomfortable. That child is 13.

ROWAN:  I yeah—I also—that I don't care about these teenagers flirting, if this is a subplot, I will snore.

JAZZA:  It was—it was and I spoil that—

ROWAN:  And I simply did.

JAZZA:  It was a—I simply did.

ROWAN:  Yeah, it was these two like random children who had like a crush on each other. And I don't know whether they were trying to do like a love actually situation, where it's like, oh, if you perform, like we're going to perform in the play together, but somehow, I've actually managed to have like, three times as many plot lines and still make me care more about the teenagers fighting. I simply didn't care in this. And then there's also—basically, this was like really—this movie really hits you over the head with like, two elements. One is like the romance element. But the other one is specifically like babies, children. And so another bit of the romance element is the very short live lesbian coworker/friend that Sam, the gay scrooge has. Who essentially has just gotten engaged, and he doesn't seem to be a very, like a romance scrooge. Like he seems to be excited about the fact that she's getting married, and they have like a tiny joke about the idea of like, oh, did you ever think you'd see the day, and her being like, more than anything, I hope one day you find a guy, and I'm like, wow. Ooh, savage.

JAZZA:  Yeah, you're not going to be able to be happy with unless you're in a heteronormative relationship. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. And although it is very accurate, the lesbians do bully everyone else in the community. We are obviously known for being mean. Me, for example, love to bully Jazza.

JAZZA:  Yeah, case in point, every episode of this podcast.

ROWAN:  Which I know what even are you, a gay, non-binary. They're—they're my favorite ones to—

JAZZA:  That's who we are

ROWAN:  They're my favorite ones to um—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Absolutely rip to shreds. So that seemed very accurate to me. And we essentially at this point, also get shu—we don't just get exposition, we get a flashback to show what they're exposing, which is the—the last time you tried to look after the kids. He managed to burn dinner, and have a terrible mustache all at the same time. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. And so he ends up arriving— his own nice doesn't recognize him because he no longer has a mustache. And that really is most—oh no, then they have a conversation later on. But that is the only reason that that child exists in this—in this movie. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  We also on the Jason side, who is the hot handyman next door, who is going to make some love children. We get introduced to his brother, who is a widower now and is therefore a single dad. And actually, you know what, I am going to give them some credit of there were lots of different types of families in this movie, and I don't think I've ever really seen that. And I think that's a good thing.

ROWAN:  I love that. Did I miss the bit where it turns out he was a widower, and I thought that he was just

JAZZA:  Probably.

ROWAN:  Yes. Good to know. Good to know the like, what was actually happening in that.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Hello Jazza here for the ad read. We like to talk about our sibling podcasts who are also part of our network at Multitude. And this week, I want to talk to you about Pale Blue Pod. Pale Blue Pod is an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe, but want to be its friend. Astrophysicist Dr. Moiya McTier and comedian Corrine Caputo, demystify space, one topic at a time, with open eyes, open arms, and open mouths from all of the laughing and jaw dropping that inevitably happens. By the end of each episode, the cosmos will feel a little less oh, it's so scary and a little bit more, oh, it's so cool. There is—having listened to a few episodes that they're pretty new. I love the wonderful authentic nerd energy that just runs through this podcast, like a sticker rock. And it's gonna have you genuinely smiling like a goofball in commuting to work or doing whatever you do to distract yourself from the earth that we are traveling on through space. There are new episodes every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts. So go check them out, give them some love. We are also continuing to be supported with sponsorship by Squarespace who can help you to buy a domain and create a website. There are many, many people across the internet who want you to use their code. I just ask that you consider us the next time that you buy a website or domain. We personally use Squarespace as a way to be able to create our own Queer Movie Podcast website. And it gives us great access to stuff like analytics, we have access to email campaigns, and we're able to connect all of our social media, our Instagram, and our Twitter all in one place. So yeah, use them the next time you're thinking about making one of these purchases. Just go to squarespace.com/queermovie. And when you're set up to make all your digital dreams come true. Then you can use our code Queer Movie, and save 10 percentage points off of your first purchase of a website or domain. Remember to go to squarespace.com/queermovie. This episode were also sponsored by brilliant.org. Why not balance out the outstanding media analysis that we do on Q and P by using brilliant to expand your horizons into the fields of maths, science, and technology? Rowan in last week's ad read talked about gays not being good at maths. And I don't want to turn this into an inter-ad-read war. But we literally have Alan Turing on the 50-pound note, who is a gay man who helped to crack the Enigma code in World War Two, is a renowned mathematician. We can do maths, and we have fantastic queers who do maths, Rowan. And so I want all of you to feel empowered to do so. Not feeling like you have to blaze your own trail. At brilliant.org they have thousands of lessons and keep adding new ones each month. So the wealth of knowledge you're feeding from is constantly replenished. Brilliant can help you bring out your inner cheering. But let's start with baby steps. Maybe give yourself an introduction to algebra or a classical algorithm and fundamentals. Their bite-size classes can take you from beginner to advanced in no time. To get started for free visit brilliant.org/queermovie or click on the link in the description. The first 200 of you to do so, will get 20% off brilliant annual premium subscription. Very fancy, very nice. We endorse. Now, back with the show.

[theme]

ROWAN:  I at this point I think jumped into my act two, but I don't know whether you had— where you'd play stack two for you.

JAZZA:  Yeah, act two does appear around here, and my naming for act two is Thus. This movie shows the reality of the fear of being queer moving out to the suburbs, reducing your dating pool, and settling for somebody for whom you have zero chemistry.

ROWAN:  Incredible and accurate. I should point out around you know, who knows when act one and act two happens somewhere. I didn't actually fall asleep during this, but I think maybe my brain shut down, but somewhere in there, they also met by doing a classic fall into each other's arms.

JAZZA:  Of course. They do this a couple of times at this movie as well. 

ROWAN:  Oh god. Just the worst.

JAZZA:  No wrestling though. 

ROWAN:  I don't—I make a comment about this later Jazza. It's— essentially this just—it becomes very apparent at this point that everyone else just seems to be acting in one of the Hallmarks movies that I like not necessarily literally Hallmark movies, but the kind of movies that are of this genre that are a bit more serious, in that they may be there is like, an actual like moment the you're like, oh god that got me in a way. Our main man, Sam, however, is not here, he's in Dr. Seuss's cat in the hat. He's in a slapstick comedy. He's really in a totally different movie in terms of like, there's like a record scratch when he finds out he need to babysit the kid.

JAZZA:  Oh my god, the record scratch.

ROWAN: I gotta babysit some kids? No way! It's really frustrating because there's actually quite a few random like sound effects, which are not part of the world he's in that happened around him. And it—he's simply not funny enough to earn them. Uh, it's my—it's my opinion.

JAZZA:  Aw.

ROWAN:  You need to earn a record scratch in my book. But yeah, so into—into Act Two, essentially, it's three days until Christmas. He is now looking after the kids. And it's just a series of him being like, oh, crazy. This kid has a crush and I got to deal with it. And he's been in a play or something. This one's vegan now. Oh my god.

ROWAN:  Can I just before we dive into this really fascinating part of the movie, do you remember how Sam cottoned on to the fact that Jason is gay?

ROWAN:  Is it because he hugged—he hugged a man? 

JAZZA:  No, it's ha—that—that comes that comes later, that's his ex.

ROWAN:  Oh, okay.

JAZZA:  Jason says oh, I really like your—and his name's the brand of the loafer. 

ROWAN:  Ah.

JAZZA:  That he's wearing.

ROWAN:  I see.

JAZZA:  And Sam goes, hey, how do you know what type of loafers these are? And then Jason gives a knowing look, and that's how we know he's gay.

ROWAN:  Oh, Incredible. I mean, they both had truly a horrendous fashion sent stringless maybe.

JAZZA:  Really terrible. 

ROWAN:  Really bad. 

JAZZA:  Really terrible.

ROWAN:  So that—

JAZZA:  Nothing fit in.

ROWAN:  —that doesn't really make sense logically, within the internal logic of the film that they've created. But there we go.

JAZZA:  We al—we also at this point, get the thank God the only mean goes with this.

ROWAN:  Oh, God.

JAZZA:  Where a Sam is woken up by a dog licking his face, and he goes stops trying to make fetch happen.

ROWAN:  I—Yeah

JAZZA:  And everyone died of

ROWAN:  So much. 

JAZZA:  Which is why it is silent.

ROWAN:  There's just a series of things in this which were like if they had just had like—if they had the money to hire some kind of consultant on here for like continuity, for example, they whisked dry flour for quite a long time during one scene, which was kind of fun. And then he goes, what do we put in next, and the guy goes flour and then he just put flour into the bowl of flour,  you can whisk it and I found that incredible. But basically like this is where the oh, here's the plot happens. Because there is a lot of like subplots that essentially amount to very little, but the main—the main plot—plot is the idea of like, hey, I want to be a better uncle to look after these kids. You know how to Uncle because you have about a thousand nephews and nieces and nibblings.

JAZZA:  Yes.

ROWAN:  Can you be my uncle's consultant, I will pay you money to do this. And Jason, I guess is like, I love money and 

JAZZA:  Capitalism. You can explain this to somebody in the 1800s.

ROWAN:  Exactly. He's like that is—that is my job now, Uncle consultant. That seems like the kind of—everyone was a bloody light had a—had a ward in the Edwardian times. So this makes a total sense.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN: And so this is kind of the idea of like, hey, you're hanging around and teaching me how to be a good uncle. And then they go and do a bunch of Christmas stuff together. They go to the Christmas fair—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  That's very obvious it's in summer because it is very sunny, and the snow is very sparse, and there's entirely dry ground between all of the bits of snow because no one has been trailing wet footprints across—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —beautiful set dressing. Stunning. And there's also the line. You're spending Christmas in Hawaii by yourself with such judgment from Jason. And I'm like, yeah, and it sounds like a dream, Jason. Don't kill Sam’s dreams, sir.

JAZZA:  So did you get from Jason the slight, I want to murder you in way your skin vibes? 

ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. 

JAZZA:  There were a couple of moments. So there's a bit where Sam goes in—because Jason has been helping Sam's sister to paint the new nursery for the baby that's coming. And Sam goes in and—and watches Jason do some of this painting. And I don't know what it is about the delivery, but it's very, I flavor beans and a nice Chianti. Like it's like—

ROWAN:  Chianti.

JAZZA:  —I always find—Chianti. I always find painting to be soothing. And I don't know what it was about that delivery. I was just like, run, run a mile.

ROWAN:  I would really love it If someone in the audience could recap this movie as a trailer for a horror movie. I feel like it will be pretty fun. Because that definitely that film like it has potential. But yeah, essentially, I think it's just there's a certain type of blank blandness that will give way to spookiness if you let it. And I think this unsettling blank page of a man was really, really giving that spookiness that you picked up on Jazza. I—I fully agree. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 100%. So they start, they keep on, kind of like having slight brush moments. So Jason is trying to teach them how to cook, or how you try and bond with your nephews. I don't know. The main beep like I feel like, is Sam trying to teach his nephew how to perform in the Christmas play? And how to speak with more confidence, which actually I did quite like those scenes. I thought they were kind of sweet. Eventually, he wakes up one morning. I honestly I think I bugged up my notes because there's I feel like there's a big gap of like things that must have happened, but it just didn't write anything down.

ROWAN:  Nothing was important. Here's—here's what—where—where did you— where is  you—where have you jumped to, and I can fill you in on the unimportant stuff that happen.

JAZZA:  I've gone from—so they're wrapping Christmas presents. Oh, hilarious trying wrap a scooter? Yeah.

ROWAN:  Shall I tell you what happened before they tried to wrap the presents? 

JAZZA:  Yes, go on.

ROWAN:  I took extensive notes, apparently. But who knows why. His slow motion fell into a Christmas Tree to avoid the dog and then acted like it was the heaviest thing in the world and was crushing him. Two other people took it off with zero difficulties. 

JAZZA:  Exactly.

ROWAN:  They went on the light walk, where they looked at all of the lights on the Christmas Trees in the neighborhood, which is when he says, hey, this was my ex. I—I'm not into him anymore. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  I'm just a bit jealous because I always wanted to kind of when I grow—when I grew up to like get married and be a dad. And at that point, I wrote down, huh interesting. Because he wouldn't have been able to get married, or potentially even adopt when he was growing up at this age. And then I was like, interesting missing out on like political angst, seems quite Hallmark. We will find out later that this does actually come back and get commented on at the end, however, which is interesting. And he reveals that he wants to actually adopt , he doesn't want to wait till he's in a relationship. So he wants to be a dad that badly. Then the baby's been born. And my notes are just, we're spending way too much time with these heterosexuals. didn't need to be in there. We didn't need to keep checking back on these people.

JAZZA:  Oh, also the dad gets introduced. And I don't know why he's in this movie. 

ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. 

JAZZA:  Is it just—is it just to show that grandparents should also be around? It's the propaganda again, isn't it?

ROWAN:  Yeah cause it's like, he does this whole thing. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  this whole thing where it's like, oh, it's not just me. He's going to Hawaii like my parents aren't together. And like, my dad lives in a cabin or whatever. Like, there's a lot of this element—

JAZZA:  Sure.

ROWAN:  —of, we're not a real family 'cause we're not together at Christmas. So they had to get back together. I also have a line which does talk back to what you said about they're not fist fighting. Because for those who aren't aware, me and Jazza have noticed a very interesting trend were, when they

JAZZA:  It's a very interesting trend, yeah.

ROWAN:  Where they want to make gay guys make out in movies, they often make the gay guys just wrestle each other on the ground first, like so often.

JAZZA:  And I will say that's—that is what a lot of my teenage romance—

ROWAN:  That's valid.

JAZZA:  —started as, so yeah it's valid. You know, it's a trope, but it's a valid trope.

ROWAN:  That's based on true events, from Jazza:'s life.

JAZZA:  I actually consulted on all of those movies. That's the problem. 

ROWAN:  And then my notes for what happened when I really, really felt that imagery come to the fore for me, was when Sam goes can I help with very dramatic music as they make Santa waffles? And then in brackets just fight then fuck, I can't take this lack of chemistry.

JAZZA:  Weird.

ROWAN:  And then we get to them wrapping Christmas presents together. So as you can tell very little of consequence happened. You miss nothing, Jazza.

JAZZA:  Yeah. Okay. Great. I'm very happy about that. So they wrap Christmas presents. Ooh, lol, hilarious. Great. At some point, Jason gives Sam a present. So it's like a shitty Christmas jumper that says nice. Great. Santa is giving me presents.

ROWAN:  Irony.

JAZZA:  And then—and then under—because we've been told Sam's not nice. And then underneath that, he's got the genuine present, which is, it's just a jumper. And Sam has an incredibly intense emotional reaction to the jumper. And he goes, it's perfect. And I'm like, you haven't spoken about your love of jumpers up into this point. All he's done and said, I thought this hella would look nice on you, which I guess would make you think oh, he's thought about it. But this isn't—the emotional reaction to this does not marry up with what has just happened here.

ROWAN:  Yes. Essentially, there's been no chemistry. There's been no real buildup of the relationship. And then so completely unearned. They have a moment where they hold hands and then they like, have to take their hand away because it's like, oh, no, we held hands. We couldn't possibly. And I really feel like I need to point out to these Hallmark filmmakers, just because Sam cannot talk to children, it doesn't mean he wants them. That's not how that works. Just because he can make some waffles doesn't mean you suddenly like wait, children. I've I this whole time. And then I also put at this point, okay, the baby is still alive and we have to see it for some reason, which I guess was about the fact we had flashback once more to this baby, that the straight couple are adopting.

JAZZA:  But did you notice how little engagement with said baby? I don't know if you've been around like newborn babies, but you literally have to be attentive to them all of the time. And they just put this—

ROWAN:  I've watched what you do.

JAZZA:  I literally—They just put this baby do—this baby doesn't cry once. This baby just gets put down, and they just kind of like nobody interacts with it. Nobody picks it up. Nobody kind of like confronts it. It's a—it's very, it's very odd.

ROWAN:  Jazza, I have a theory. 

JAZZA:  Oh no.

ROWAN:  We never see the woman who goes into labor. We never see the person who gives birth to this child.

JAZZA:  No, we don't. Which I also thought was a bit odd. Yeah. 

ROWAN:  What if it's a reborn? 

JAZZA:  What's a reborn?

ROWAN:  Oh, Jazza. I feel so happy for you that you don't know about this. So basically, it's— it's hyper-realistic dolls.

JAZZA:  Oh, no. 

ROWAN:  What if they have just bought a hyperrealistic doll in this whole thing? And the reason why the youngest girl is like, I don't like that my parents have left me at Christmas. It's because she knows they're going to pick up a doll. And all of this is—and so that's the reason why they aren't checking on this baby. It's because it doesn't need feeding. It doesn't eat. It's literally just a lifeless doll.

JAZZA:  It is the ultimate realization that is inevitably going to happen in our culture when a straight couple gets so boring that they need to spice up their life somehow. And so they have a kid, this allows you to have a kid I guess. And not actually, you know, do the thing. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. So I—you know what, until someone from the movie calls me up directly on the landline that I don't have, and tells me that that's wrong. That's—that's true now.

JAZZA:  Yeah, guilty until proven innocent. It's true. 

ROWAN:  Exactly.

[theme]

ROWAN:  So it's at this point after we've had like this weird Christmas jumper exchange, and Sam getting weirdly emotional about this guy that he knows, he isn't compatible with. I moved into act three. I don't know if you—you'd moved to act three at this point.

JAZZA:  Yes. So this is—because this is the point where we have the closest thing to a party. And it is for me the Christmas Play.

ROWAN:  Yeah. The play and it's aftermath.

JAZZA:  Yeah, the (Christmas Play) party, and its aftermath.

ROWAN:  Stunning. Yes.

JAZZA:  We made it work. We made it work. This play is one of the worst attended plays that I've ever seen in a movie.

ROWAN:  In a movie, not in real life. Because plays in real life are often very badly attended. 

JAZZA:  Often very badly attended uh—

ROWAN:  Again, just—their attention to detail to reality in this movie is incredible.

JAZZA:  I've been to a bit of a  I have been one of three people in an audience before. And this isn't not a good play surprise. Nobody is dressed up. No one's put any effort into this play. They're just some kids are the—some of the kids are wearing scarves and like where's wally hat.

ROWAN:  Is the play a metaphor for this movie?

JAZZA:  I hope so.

ROWAN:  Maybe.

JAZZA:  And Sam and Jason teamed up. They're like, high five. Yeah, we're now like the tech hunkles. And because they bought a camera, because the parents can't watch them play. And they brought a backup, and like yeah, backup, and now they're, I guess it team.

ROWAN:  Stunning. Couldn't—couldn't just like use their phones or anything. They had to be really inconvenient to get some tripods out. 

JAZZA:  Oh, yeah. Literally whole—whole shebang. So they—we get to Christmas Eve. And the point where I thought Jason was going to kill Sam, happens. So Jason says we're going to turn off all of the lights. Because we used to turn off all of the lights and just kind of like be present. Which, you know, fine. People have into that mindfulness stuff. They turn off the lights, they look at the tree, they kind of start holding hands, and then Jason starts humming Silent Night. And I swear if I—if he had brought out a knife, and just stabbed Sam to death at this point.  I actually would have preferred that. I would have preferred it in the movie, as a movie. 

ROWAN:  Shocking twist ending on the Hallmark's first gay Christmas movie. 

JAZZA:  Hallmark's first gay, Christmas Horror movie.

ROWAN:  They lost full sense of security. And then they went straight for the homicidal homosexual. Yeah, that was just like the line in that whole section, which is clearly meant to be like, oh, the sweet, like little quiet moment of romance, where he's like the anticipation. So much is about to happen. Oh, I love Christmas in the nighttime. I wish there was any chemistry to make that line worth it. But there's simply not.

JAZZA:  I have a question. Not so much for you. But for the people who are making these—these quick Christmas movies. Because we have a similar problem with Single All The Way last year, where it felt like there was zero chemistry with the couple that ended up getting together. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

JAZZA:  And this has happened now. Now, from my experience, gay men are fantastic at pretending that they have chemistry. The whole Grindr just floated on the New York Stock Exchange. If gay men had a problem pretending to have chemistry with strangers that they've just met, Grindr would not be the success that it is today. So how have they managed to do castings of these, these two big kind of like queer holiday movies, and found people that just don't have any of that togetherness? 

ROWAN:  So I think a big part of the—of this is, is exactly what I mentioned before about the fact that the two leads seem to be in very different vibes of movie. And there is a moment, there is a brief second of a moment, which I think is almost right at the end. I think it might be just after they've kissed. And you see both of them. And they both have the same kind of smile on their face, which is quite like, this is so specific, but it's—it's not that one of the characters is like overly goofy bug-eyed, like Hollywood smile, and the other ones doing a soft, sweet Hallmark movie smile. They both genuinely are just smiling. And they're—and it's like, they have a little inside joke together and whatever. And then that one second of the movie, I was like, that's what they needed to have been doing this entire time. They needed to have been making it so that both of them are on the exact same wavelength with it. So when they look at each other, and you're meant to see that there's some kind of connection, there is a genuine moment where they're like, they have a secret smile with each other, or they're having like an eye-roll with each other. Or there's some kind of like levity, humor, tension to it, where they both are on the same wavelength with what that vibe and energy is. And I think the big problem for me was, you can never have chemistry, where you have characters who were feel like they are so completely in a different vibe of movie, it's just not going to work. Because you can never get them to a place where they genuinely feel like they are connecting in that moment. Because there is such performativity to it. At least for me, that's my two cents on that—on this issue, because you're right, it shouldn't have been that difficult to happen. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, I think that was very good. And they should probably hire you. So Sam tries to give Jason the money that they agreed on. But we later find out that Jason doesn't want his money. Why are you just paying me, I'm not a common uh—

ROWAN:  Poor?

JAZZA:  — a common whore.

ROWAN:  Even though it's almost like that was the agreement that they came to. And if he had just not given him any money, then he would be like, my dude, I literally did all of this for the promise of money. And you've given me absolutely, you've been like, okay, bye. I'm going to Hawaii now.

JAZZA:  And so Sam has decided not to go to Hawaii, and instead spend Christmas with his families.

JAZZA:  Christmas, this morning. The kids get to meet their new little sister, and they turn around and just go, baby. So that's— so that's fun. 

ROWAN:  Yep. 

JAZZA:  They've named the kid after her. After Sam as well. It's called Angelica Samantha. So that's sweet. And the dad then triggers his gay son by suggesting pancakes, because that's what Jason taught Sam how to make. And then he goes into the other room to have a breakdown of a pancake. 

ROWAN:  It's really funny because I actually so—I only saw this movie, which is maybe right before we recorded, so it was nice and fresh in my mind. And also because I forgot before then to do it, which is very me. But I had seen someone had done a Tiktok where they were like, if you don't know the context for this scene, this is completely unhinged and hilarious. I didn't realize that scene was from this movie. So the scene is just an old man saying, I'd love some pancakes. And then it pan. It just cuts to a man looking at him. Who immediately—

JAZZA:  How does it pan to a man?

ROWAN:  —immediately it cuts—it doesn't—it doesn't pancake to a man. Unfortunately, it is cuts to a man who has a split second of hearing what he's just said. And in his face crumples. And then he runs away crying. And I was like, I remember watching that Tiktok and being like, God, I guess I'll never know what the context of that was. And then, to my surprise, it turns up in this movie, almost hysterical nonetheless, even with context. And it is at this point where they do actually bring up that political angst option that I had talked about earlier, which was the idea of like, this man just casually says like, oh, yeah right,  I'd always dreamt of like getting married and being a dad when I grew up. And I was like, huh, but did you though, like that feels like that's something more complex there? And they did it at the end instead, but with the other character with Sam, but it kind of became this like reasoning of like, oh, the only reason why I said I didn't want kids, and a husband and stuff was because I just hadn't really realized I could. But now I do. Of course, I want kids, uh I'm so silly.

JAZZA:  I—I understand your cynical reading of it.

ROWAN:  I did also think it was very pleased Jazza, give the lesson a core reading. So I do also think that what you're about to say, I'm sure it's also very correct. And I probably was also feeling that under the surface.

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, yeah of course. Rowan does have some feelings.

ROWAN:  Allegedly.

JAZZA:  I, I loved this. I—I would just clip this part of the movie as kind of like a way of especially for gays of my generation. I don't think we've really—because, because so much has changed in our lifetime, I don't think we really helped me realize how much we were affected by the environment that we were raised in, in our formative years. where we didn't have the option. It was like, I mean, that equal age of consent when we were younger. We didn't have protections in law, and we couldn't do the heteronormative things like get married and adopt children if we wanted to. And I think that that is a subconscious psychological thing that not many people around my age, have necessarily thought about that, that is something that has really—those restrictions, when we were growing up in what a queer person would be able to do, and what they could be, have really affected how we think about what it is possible for us to be when we craft our own lives, and we create our own worlds when we come to maturity. And we choose to kind of like building an adult life for ourself. And I've never—I don't think I've ever seen a movie address that phenomenon. So head on. And I don't think it was the most articulate way of talking about it. And yes, it did have first heteronormative undertones of whoa, oh, if only I had known, I could have also had a partner and children, then, of course, I would have chosen it. I think that does exist in this clip. But I think it explains that phenomenon of what people my age went through, and I really appreciated that.

ROWAN:  I—I also do agree with that. Like I—I am very aware of the fact that like you say your age, as we are not the same fucking age, Jazza.

JAZZA:  I definit—I feel like I'm older, wiser,

ROWAN:  A boomer yeah—

JAZZA:  You know.

ROWAN:  We understand.

JAZZA:  Exactly.

ROWAN:  I essentially was like, I was—I was doing the like, you know, being—being harsh on it, to begin with, as is my role in this podcast, I've decided that. But I also was like, for what this movie was. I was like, yeah, fair, this is—they were never gonna go more than this. Like this was what it was. And I was surprised that they did actually mention it because I fully thought they were gonna go completely like on angsty, such political angst in particular. I wish there had been like, more—although, say I'm saying this, but I'm also like, this movie was just never gonna be able to pull that off. But I do think there is a world in which has a movie where they do have any kind of subtext or ceding to the idea of this is something that he does one, but he doesn't quite realize that he can have it or isn't ready to make that step, or he—it doesn't feel like what everyone else talks about, when they talk about it being like, oh, I was imagining my wedding dress when I was a kid. And that idea of like, oh, if I haven't wanted something since the beginning of my life, or haven't been planning for it forever, then maybe I didn't really want it enough. Am I wanting it for other people? Like there's a lot of complexities in that. And I really wish there had been like, any subtexts with the idea that like, oh, he does actually want this. And not just the thing where he's adamant that he doesn't, even when he's seen like, his best friend who is a lesbian get to have it and stuff. And even then he's not like, yeah, I didn't think it would happen not because, you know, because we're gay. But at the beginning, he talks about not thinking what happened because you know, we're we don't do romance or stew. Hahaha. There was some elements or some moments where I was like, oh, this could have been seeded in a really interesting way. But then I suddenly remembered that I had clocked and scrolled back to you, because I couldn't quite place what the actor was going for, in that moment, where we didn't get this political angsty option before, where at the Christmas market, he says about, oh, I've always wanted this. And there's this really weird look that the actor gives. And now I'm like, what's he trying to do? Like, ah, like, oh, but instead of just was like an awkward side eye, where he's like, okay, weirdo. Okay, ooh, you are freak.

JAZZA:  Well, there's it. As we said, we've tight turnarounds there's only take. 

ROWAN:  Truly. So I'm, like, I'm saying this stuff. I'm so aware of the fact that like, this is not a world in which that could actually happen. But I do. But in terms of you saying that this isn't like an experience you've necessarily seen played out. I really—I do want to see that. Because I feel that really hard. And I also think as well, there's like, such a small age difference between us and someone, even like eight years younger than us, and he's younger than us. But they have not had that same experience as us. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN:  Even as we're getting older, and they are essentially our peers now, a lot of these people. Like, it's—it's  like, oh, there is a fundamental difference in how we were raised. Because you were—you don't ever remember there being a time when you weren't legally equal in this country. Like that's not a thing you have to experience—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —and understand, and like be going into the world of adulthood knowing that, that was or really believing that, that was never going to happen. Like I found a I think was like a Facebook post that your memory thing of you know, and it says like, oh, you know, 10 years ago, this was something you posted. And I think it was like a year like a—one of those classics like, hey, copy and paste this and answer the questions. And one of the things of like, what do you think will happen in five years? Where are you be in five years? And I think I put like, I doubt it will happen, but like maybe I'll be up to get married, is like one of the options. And I look back at that I was like, oh, fuck yeah, I feel like maybe a lot of us have just sort of pushed that particular trauma like down like, oh, we don't have to deal with that anymore.

JAZZA:  Yeah, 100%.

ROWAN:  But I would love to—I—I agree with you like I would really, really love to see a movie that had a budget behind it, that had like a real consideration of the script and time for actors to actually, act more than one take.

JAZZA:  Sure.

ROWAN:  Take on something like this in a way, could be really interesting.

JAZZA:  A little bit of investment. Because I—yeah, I really, really appreciated them like addressing

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  So then that touching scene happens then they get together, the end. 

ROWAN:  Yeah, that's literally it. 

JAZZA:  Shall we review this movie, give it the ratings?

ROWAN:  Yeah, go on. 

JAZZA:  Cool.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Here with the Queer Movie Podcast, we have a rating system where we award a movie that we talked about up to six of the original six colored bars of the rainbow flag. They are red for life. Orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, blue for harmony and purple for spirit. Rowan?

ROWAN:  Uhh.

JAZZA:  How—how many bars are you gonna give in and which colors? 

ROWAN:  It's like one, maybe? I on this first movie. And you know what, I'm gonna go with spirit. 

JAZZA:  Uh-huh.

ROWAN:  Just for that last final attempt at doing something. They got that—they had that spirit, the Christmas spirit. You know? I think that's what I'm gonna go with. It was just this wasn't even like I could hate watch it. Like it was fundamentally just like very boring to me. And this is also from someone like I—I'm sure I've mentioned this on the podcast before. I'm a fan fiction bitch. I—It's not that I don't do or rom-com or whatever. Like I'm an asexual, fanfiction bitch. So everything I'm reading is like the opposite of what people think fanfiction is, when they're like, the hardcore sex happens. I'm like, I just want people to, to fall in love and like all these misunderstandings to be cleared up la la la. So I was primed to be interested in this shit. But it just wasn't it. There was like so many random subplots that didn't go anywhere. There was just— I didn't feel the chemistry. It was frustrating to me. So yeah, sadly, it's a one for me. Jazza, how about you?

JAZZA: Yeah, I—I want to give it to more than one. And I've just sat here looking at the six bars of the rainbow flag and their meanings, and being like, is there anything else I can give it? And I don't think that is.

ROWAN:  Actually, you know, you could do, you could give it yellow for sun because of the fact that was clearly filmed in the summer months, when the sun was in very bright for a winter. For a winter, so amazing.

JAZZA:  No, I'm only going to give it one. I don't think it deserves it. I loved some of the campiness of the main character. And I loved—I liked that end, kind of like political commentary. I— and I liked the fact that you could probably cut this movie into like a trailer for a horror movie. And I really want somebody to do that. But otherwise, it's—it's—this is not the one and it is not for me.

ROWAN:  Yeah. Do you know what I—actually didn't know what I loved? I love that this movie exists in theory. I love that there's a Hallmark movie with a gay lead. That's what I'll say about it. That's the best thing I think it's got going for it.

JAZZA:  It's still only getting one sto—one

ROWAN:  One ball for us.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, then we ask that you consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join the Queer Movie Club, where we do watch along in our Discord each month. But that is only the bare minimum of what you can get. At high levels, you can also get our movie recommendations and a monthly newsletter with a curation of all of the gay shit we found on the internet. 

ROWAN:  So thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon. We adore you. You're the best. Thank you very much for making this happen. This absolute chaos. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions. So make sure you check out all of that other awesome podcasts full of both fun and frivolity.

JAZZA:  Make sure you follow and subscribe to this podcast, so that you are primed for our next episode. Happy holidays.

ROWAN:  Oh yeah, it's the holidays. That's why we did a Christmas related film. This is why we suffered in this way. To watch the one Christmas related gay film from this year. I remember now. Good to know.

JAZZA:  Bloody hell. Okay, let's go.

[theme]

In which Rowan dives deep with the founder of the Bi Pan Library, Bren Frederick, to talk about owls, trio-protagonists and bi awakenings in the this week's episode.

 

We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Find Us Online

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod 

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

 

ROWAN:  Before we kick off the episode, we just want to say a huge thank you to our patrons Toby and Jennifer, who have chosen to support us on the highest tier available on our Patreon, Rainbow parents. So, thank you so much for your support and for the support of all our other patrons. Sincerely, you help us keep the show going. So thank you very much and we have a link to the Patreon in the description if you would like to check it out.

[theme]

ROWAN:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst and LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of our guest's specials. Today we are joined by a very special guest who will be answering the question what movies made you queer? I am very excited to welcome, Bren Frederick. 

BREN:  Hello.

ROWAN:  Yay. who, amongst basically professional bisexuals, um in same way that I'm a professional homosexual. The founder of the Bi Pan library, which you've never heard of, I beg you to google it. It is an incredible resource for kind of Bi Pan and M-spec books. Chef's kiss, wonderful staff, we love to see it. And so you know, also my friends. So I was like, please come on the podcast, love to chat to my friends in a professional capacity.

BREN:  I'm very happy to be here.

ROWAN:  So as we normally do at the very start of these episodes, when we talk about the what movies made you queer format, we like to also specify you know, queer is—queer is not necessarily how everyone identifies. So what words do you use to de— to describe your identity? What is the official title of this episode? Bren Frederick, movies that made me blank.

BREN:  Movies that made me bisexual, genderqueer. Those are the main words that I use. I also just use queer as sort of a blanket term for myself. All of that would be accurate. 

ROWAN:  Amazing. We have had a fair few people who have done these guests' former episodes. And they—some of them have doubled up with the—the kind of things that they wanted to talk about. There's a lot of people where it's like, oh, these— these particular movies or these particular characters really sparked something in —in many bisexual people, I only know, many queer people. You did send me some previews of some of the stuff you're going to talk about, and I am potentially—potentially going to bet, put money on the fact that no one else is going to have your choices because you have chosen some truly wild, wild picks. And so I would love to hear about your first one. In whatever order you decide, most hinge to least hinge. Um, earliest to most recent. What have you fancy, go for it?

BREN:  Okay, well, my fri—for my first movie, I've chosen Hoot from 2006. It's based on the novel Hoot by Carl Hiaasen. And it's rated a whopping 26% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. 

ROWAN:  Oh my God.

BREN:  I don't—I think I'm in the wro—on the wrong podcast for anyone to know what movie I'm talking about.

ROWAN:  on the wrong planet?

BREN:  Have you seen this film, Rowan?

ROWAN:  No, I had no idea it existed and you sent me—I'm glad that you didn't send me just that information that you sent me the poster because I feel like I got more of a sense of what was going on. In that, it also has some quite famous people in it. This isn't some like—

BREN:  Before they were.

ROWAN:  Like random indie movie that like no—we've never heard of. Like these are— these are some big names.

BREN:  Yeah, like surely Brie Larson has been mentioned on this podcast before, surely.

ROWAN:  If not an injustice has been done.

BREN:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  But yeah, Brie—Brie Larson in it. 

BREN:  Yep. This is I believe her first like main role in a film, I could be wrong. And she has a pop single over the credits.

ROWAN:  Okay, the fact I didn't know that it's truly—

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Truly a—an injustice. Absolutely. So okay, what is the plot of this movie? Like, what—if—if people are sitting down thinking wow, 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, that seems like a gem. Brie Larson singing a pop song. I'd watch it. What is—what is actually going on in this movie?

BREN:  Right. So it isn't a musical. We'll start there. It was just this thing that happened in the Arts where like, leading girls and women would sing a song and it would go over the credits. And we just all accepted that was how it was. I don't know if everyone was trying to start a pop career at that point. So the main character is our boy Roy Eberhardt, played by Logan Lerman, who you might know is—

ROWAN:  A not a star-studded cast.

BREN:  Percy Jackson himself, which I never saw, because um, yeah.

ROWAN:  You heard the rumors about how bad it was. And you were like, I will—I will simply no, be watching this.

BREN:  No, it was uh. Well, I grew up very conservative Christian. So it was like, pagan nonsense.

ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. No, that's of course. Yeah. e—equally valid as an excuse, I guess. 

BREN:  Essentially, it's about a—there's three kids who, Roy, Beatrice, the bear, and Beatrice's stepbrother, who's only known as Mullet Fingers. Mullet as in—

ROWAN:  Wha—what? 

BREN:  Mullet isn't a, the little fish.

ROWAN:  Yeah, okay, that makes more sense in the little—like little tiny wigs on all his fingers.

BREN:  That's a completely different movie. So they become friends. Roy is new in town, he's not fitting in. He's from Montana. And He's new in Florida. It's set in the Florida Everglades.

ROWAN:  Sure, yeah. That seems like a place that exists.

BREN:  And I—I could really make an argument for this film being anti-capitalist, anti-cop. 

ROWAN:  Pro mullet.

BREN:  Because, because the center—the center of this plot is these kids are trying to stop a big franchise Pancake House from being built on this little lot that has a bunch of burrowing owls and endangered burrowing owls. Carl Hiaasen, who wrote the book is an environmentalist and really involved in a lot of efforts to save the Florida wetlands. And all of anything that comes from this man is trying to save the birds.

ROWAN:  This is—I mean that sounds like a delightful movie.

BREN:  Yeah. But—but how did it's make me queer?

ROWAN:  the question. Yeah. the wet like, I get that like gay people like birds or whatever, but like, Where's—where's the connection for you here?

BREN:  None of these three kids fit into the gender role they're supposed to fit into. And that's not at all central to like, that's not what the—the movie is trying to tell you. But it's the thing that I picked up on as a kid. Roy is very sensitive and gentle and kind and emotional about these little birds. Beatrice is a star athlete at the school, she's a soccer player. She's very tough, all the boys are afraid of her. She can outrun anybody, like, she's—she, and she's known as the bear. She has this very like, masculine, tough nickname. And then Mullet Fingers is a runaway from his family. His family does not understand him, doesn't treat him well. And he would rather go live, like he literally lives like in a swamp, kind of, and feels far more connected to nature and animals than with humanity. And that sort of— is that distance from what you're supposed to be. And also, it's an entirely platonic film. Also, like, there's moments where you might think like, maybe Roy and Beatrice have a crush on each other, maybe near the end. But it's not central at all. And they have this very equal, platonic, caring friendship. At one point, Beatrice like stays the night in Roy's bedroom. They're like, middle schoolers, and they just have a nice, like, emotional conversation. There's no implication of anything romantic there. And it's—it's very, very sweet. And, well that was so important to me as a kid, where I was just kind of drawn to people of any kind as friends, as crushes. And it was so much media at the time, like the 90s. And the arts, was very aggressively gendered, very aggressively, heterosexual. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

BREN:  And prescriptive. And this movie didn't do that to me. And I thought I felt so safe there. I watched it so frequently on my little portable DVD player that we would have had at the time.

ROWAN:  Okay, so you've seen something truly incredible. Just that and without description. Bren, because you've made me want to watch this movie.

BREN:  Watch it with me.

ROWAN:  That is 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, we absolutely need to have a, like a Netflix zoom party situation with this because it sounds adorable. And I definitely understand what you mean about the the idea of having these sorts of possibilities put before you, especially ones that didn't fit into this very prescriptive idea that showed you a world where you didn't have to fit into this particular, like mode, this particular type. And I think that that's always so exciting to see that it doesn't necessarily have to be that you are like, oh, yes, this one character is who I am. But just the idea of like, you can have a character who's rejected their family, or you can have a character who is breaking the norms. It doesn't have to be the norms that you want to break, but it still has that element of, you know, something that feels relatable, especially I think, to young queer people that makes complete sense to me.

BREN:  Yeah, something I was noticing, as I was looking back over the movies I thought I might talk about today was, I was very drawn to movies with at least three main characters rather than a central protagonist, a hero or heroine. Because if there are three people of any gender, one of them is going to end up sidestepping out of some sort of prescriptive gender rule. Because they need it to be three different dynamic characters. So if there's a man and a woman and then a sidekick of any gender, that sidekick is going to be breaking some sort of gender norm. And I was always the most attached to that third person. And those—those were always the most comfortable to me because I could sort of patchwork together the things that I related to from all of these uh different archetypes I guess.

ROWAN:  Yeah, I mean, thinking about just the idea of the like, I'd know the Lizzie McGuire like three relationship kind of teen show element of like you had the—the main girl who was like pretty much the like normal girl kind of thing. The boy who was like, you know, some flavor of boy that probably might end up being a love interest of some kind. And then the lesbian best friend um, truly does the one on the side, which we love to see. So you know Buffy because similar energy with the willow, the lesbian best friend on the side. I love that. I mean, did you have any inkling at the time of like what this meant to you? Or is this one of those things where you look back on it and you're like, oh, boy, this has really given me some a—some info about myself as a child.

BREN:  Certainly not the gender part of it. That—that I have, I am still entangling as an adult. But at the time, I was extremely preoccupied with Brie Larson in the film. I had a crush on all of those main characters, like Logan Lerman, and Brie Larson, and whoever the other guy was, he doesn't—I don't think he acts anymore.

ROWAN:  Mullet Fingers. He should just be known as Mullet Fingers from now on. Great kid. I don't know. What a guy.

BREN:  But I—I was very preoccupied with Beatrice, who she was—she was so tough and cool. She was also feminine. I was very attracted to her, and I couldn't, you know, it was that classic situation of not knowing if you want to be her, or, if you like her. So I would like try to do my hair like her and didn't like it, and didn't know what the deal was with that. So but at the time, like I hadn't—it had not hit my consciousness yet. What it meant that I was so drawn to her or that I was so drawn to like my close female friends with whom I had very intense relationships and didn't understand why they were so intense either. So no, it wasn't conscious at all. I didn't have my first realization that I might like girls, much less all of the rest of it until I was 15, or 16. And that was maybe a week. I had maybe a week where I was thinking a lot about that. And then I repressed it so hard. It didn't come back up again until I was 18 or 19.

ROWAN:  I mean, here's the thing. That sucks real hard. But also, as you know, this podcast and me, myself is all about distance from real emotions, and therefore incredible work. Well, honestly, that was—

BREN:  I deserve an award.

ROWAN:  You really decided to repress it. I knew you committed diligence, you know, years-long repression. Incredible work. Do you have any of these examples that you feel like we're part of that? Either that initial realization or the subsequent realizations later on? Has it been anything that you've really felt like, oh, this is a part of that realization of that feels like it factors into it? Or is it always been sort of before and after the fact?

BREN:  I've only had a few that had to do with media. And one of them was a book, which I don't know if you want to talk—me to talk about it.

ROWAN:  I—I'll allow it. Considering that you're a librarian, and I guess I'll allow you to talk about this film podcast, this audio-visual podcast.

BREN:  Yeah. The—the first book that I read with bisexual main characters, book called Far From You by Tess Sharpe. It's a young adult, mystery thriller, like murder mystery thriller, about a girl whose secret girlfriend is dead. So, you know.

ROWAN:  The classic.

BREN:  We did bury her. And then later in the book, she starts developing a relationship with a boy. And both of those relationships are treated as equally real, equally emotionally deep. The author is queer herself. And I remember when I read it, I didn't know that about this book before I picked it up. So when I got to this part of the book, where I realized what was happening, and the girls are kissing on the page, I was sitting in a church. And I had this like, this sense of like, collapse around me. There's a stained glass window, you know, to the side of me with a cross on it. And I'm reading this book it's like, just this like, lightning bolt through me of connecting dots suddenly. Um, like every girl in a movie that I've been like really fixated on. And every girl I knew in real life, who was—I was just—I didn't know why I was so drawn to her. And it was very, very intense. And that, that would have been when I was 18-Ish. And that one I couldn't—I couldn't repress after that. It was just—it was too intense, too much at once. I was just old enough, I think to have this sense of like separated identity. I had a job outside the house like I emerged from, from needing to be so self-protective. And it was, it was very scary. I don't know that it was a good experience exactly at the time.

ROWAN:  I thin—I mean, I think that it's like with movies. I kind of can understand a sense of understanding of your sexuality through crushes or movie characters or even understanding gender through a kind of gender envy element of the presentation of characters. But I do—but I do understand this element of books to go into the like interiority of someone in a way that movies can't necessarily get to, or sometimes we'll have to use the language of books through like voiceovers, something like that to get to. And so I can absolutely see like, not just the concept of two girls being able to kiss, but just like what was going on inside the mind of a character, while that was happening. That would give it validity that would connect with internal emotions that were happening inside as well.

ROWAN:  That's a really good point. I haven't—I hadn't thought about that before. And it is written in first person, I believe. So even—even more of that character's thoughts. Just sort of turn into your thoughts as you're reading and yeah, Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting.

ROWAN:  I mean, rebrand the queer book podcast. Coming to you soon the spin-off series. That is really interesting. And also like such a no offense, but you do—that does sound like a scene from YA movie that you just—you just said, you were like yeah, I was in church, and I read and it suddenly connected everything. And I'm like, I can see it now. I can see that montage. You know,

BREN:  It's very cinematic.

ROWAN:  Watching back to your head.

BREN:  Yeah. Yeah. Today, we're gonna talk about the movie of my life.

ROWAN:  Hmm. Oh my gosh, love to like really excited for your new movie and your—your new biography, new bio. Bio pickle, biopic. I fully don't—

BREN:  I've always said biopic, but—

ROWAN:  So have I. And then everyone says—saying biopic, and I was like, oh, no, am I about to embarrass myself in front of film bros? But I saw—I just, you know what, maybe I'll never say the word again. Maybe I'll just pick the pronunciation of the person who says it first within the exact context that I'm in, and it'll be fine. I would love to hear about your next movie pick.

BREN:  Alright. Speaking of girls that I had strangely intense friendships with. Princess Diaries.

ROWAN: Were you—were you friends with Anne Hathaway? Is that what we're trying to—is that what's happening?

BREN:  Oh man. No. I wish. I did have a huge crush on Anne Hathaway. But specifically, I have picked this film, because of Lily Moskovitz played by Heather Matarazzo. Real-life lesbian.

ROWAN:  Confirmed.

BREN:  Confirmed lesbian. There is such a great friendship between Lily and Mia in the film, and in the books, which are also very good. And neither of these characters is queer in the movie. I don't think—I don't think there are any even implied queer characters in Princess Diaries that I can remember.

ROWAN:  There is uh—I can—I can tell you the Princess Diaries story law keepers here. I think—I believe that there is one mentioned character, which is in the montage scene where they going through—

BREN:  In number two.

ROWAN:  Number two. 

BREN:  Yes. 

ROWAN:  And they're going through and saying like, oh, what are some eligible bachelors for me to marry? And there's one of them where it's like, he's very happy—she's just like, oh, he's very handsome. And the bodyguard says, yeah, his boyfriend thinks so too. And it's like, oh, good for him. 

BREN:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  Okay, moving on.

BREN:  Right on. Yes, you're right. You're right. But I think—I think that's it.  But Lily is so proudly different, stubbornly different, like different, so on purpose, And has a very close and long friendship with Mia. And through the movie, we see Mia start to change and she starts moving more towards a more feminine presentation, more traditionally attractive presentation, and also towards relationships with boys, which neither of them had really had to worry about before what happens in the film.

ROWAN:  No—I mean, not mean, I feel like we can give—I'm gonna spoil the premise of Princess Diaries in case anyone is—for some reason, like, has managed to in life and not understand the premise of Princess Diaries. There's a girl, she finds out that her dad was the prince, and now that he is dead. She, in fact, is meant to be the next ruler of this obscure and fictional European country. And she is plucked out of her life as a high schooler in America and has to be taught by her grandmother, and various teachers how to be a princess, which includes straightening her curly hair, taking off her glasses, like all of these classics, like the transformation tropes really go really hard in this movie.

BREN:  They really do.

ROWAN:  And that and so like, yeah, what's happening in the movie is that she is being transformed into a literal Princess, like the most feminine, ideal style, kind of caricature that you could think of for better or for worse.

BREN:  Yeah, yeah. And some of it, she's fine with and some of it, she feels as ridiculous. And that's—that's an interesting discussion in itself, I think in that film. That she does have to pretend in some ways. And some ways, she embraces the change and sort of figuring out which of these things that I'm conforming to, to identify with and which don't tie. But back to Lilly. Lilly is absolutely furious through a lot of the movie. Because of all these changes, she's very intimidated. And I think feels very defensive of their relationship and how it might change because how Mia looks and acts and her priorities are changing. She's very disdainful of the boy that Mia has such a big crush on for a lot of the movie. And I just remember relating to that so much as a kid who—when my friends had crushes on somebody else, or, you know, the special friends that I had a special connection to that putting us, could definitely couldn't be put into a simple and short word that we have for that situation. I mean, whoever that friend had a crush on was my mortal enemy. Like, the—there was no greater betrayal. Why did she need him? I—I didn't need somebody else. I was happy. I had this friendship. And like I didn't— I could list off a couple boy's names to like get, get people off my tracks  I guess. But that was a feeling. And that movie that—that I always projected onto it was, that Lilly was feeling what I was feeling when I was young. 

ROWAN:  And this is really interesting, right? Because this is a character who's not portrayed in the movie like this is correct. Right? So in the movie—

BREN:  Exactly.

ROWAN:  She says, she says things—like she has a talk show that's called Shut up and Listen. Like it's—it's very much—she's portrayed as like this annoying. bullheaded self-righteous feminist. Like, if she likes she's going too far, like me as the one in the middle who has their head screwed on right? Who's finding the you know, the middle ground and Lilly's the one who's just being too extreme, which I think is really interesting that like, even though the sort of implications of this movie, in terms of like, that element of Lilly's personality is not something that you're necessarily encouraged to appreciate. That you still found an appreciation for it, even without being kind of like spoon-fed to you as like, oh, this is a character— characters you're meant to support, that you still found a connection to it?

BREN:  Oh, yeah, I certainly wasn't like Lilly was meant to be such an extreme character. That is like, has a good heart, but it goes too far. Whereas Mia is also an activist and also like, remains, you know, she still has feminism at her heart, but she's doing it in this much more controlled, tamed feminine way. I actually think—you know what I ac—I actually think that like, as much as I love this movie, still, I think that it also did kind of hush me up a little bit. Like it, both—It both made me queer and made me quiet for a little bit longer. Because it showed so much of a more respectable way to be different, be a girl, and be an activist. Is that like, you find the respectable way to do it? You aren't too loud. So like not to criticize the movie. I came here to praise but.

ROWAN:  I mean, I think—here's the thing, though, like, because you can have movies that were influential to you. That you are like, these are still not perfect. Or like even— even that they were influential to you, because you were like, oh, absolutely not, like this has made me angry. And this is like been a part of my journey in that way. Like, I feel like all of those kinds of things are very valid.

BREN:  Oh, sure. I don't think any of the movies that I'm bringing today are—are perfect. 

ROWAN:  Not even Hoot?

BREN:  Not even hoot. It's a little too sensitive—sensitive to one of the main characters who was a cop.

ROWAN:  Okay, I see. I see. And then at that time, when you—when you were watching, I'm imagining that this was not something that you were like, consciously being like, I guess a crush or like, oh, yes, a character who is like me, because I'm different. Because of these reasons. It was—it was kind of free that realization I'm assuming.

BREN:  Yeah. Well, because all the characters who I relate to now, I look back on these films, I'm like, I related to that person, like maybe on a gender way. At the time, I thought I was relating to the other character who was more respectable, more feminine, and straighter. That's who I thought I was relating to, which was—was not the case. So it's—it's this backward patchwork thing. Like I was saying about who where I thought that from a gender perspective, I was relating to the character I was attracted to. 

ROWAN:  Hmm. Yeah. 

BREN:  And also, maybe I thought that I was attracted to male characters when really it was that I related to them in a gender way. 

ROWAN:  Oh, what a mood. 

BREN:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  So I—I feel like I have that energy of like, relating, like thinking that I fancied the—actually yeah, thinking about it. The—the two examples I gave earlier, Gordo from Lizzie McGuire or Xander from.  The idea of like, oh, yeah, I'm attracted to these men. No, I wasn't and it was because it was like, okay, these are like awkward nerds who are like, not lucky in romance. It's not lucky in life, just sort of chilling out, not necessarily feeling like anything special. And I was like oh okay, maybe now I can acknowledge the fact that this was not because I had a crush on these boys, it's because I was like oh no I'm too much like this. Too much this energy. Not even not necessarily the gender way, which is a ner—eh— personality way. And also like them having these—let's say Xander because he was a bit weird about his having crushes on people and I really didn't kind of have that sort of energy. But Gordo has very like quiet, a very quiet crush on Lizzy through much of the series. Justice for Gordo, truly a campaign like, they were meant to be doing a remake of that show. And if—if she had not been married to Gordo, I genuinely think that there are people—people that would have been Ryan's. So I guess it's glad—it's good that it got canceled because I don't know if they needed to take that risk. Those two end games, the original OTP.  Love— love this two. Anyway, not this episode is not about me and my for heterosexual characters from my childhood to get together, it's about you and your movies that made you queer. So do you have a third one to—to bring to the table?

BREN:  Well, speaking of whether or not you're attracted to men, and whether this fictional male character is actually attractive. This has been one of the hardest things to untangle for me, much harder actually, then being attracted to women. And I keep talking about this in this very like binary gendered way. But I think that's—that's kind of just what happens to you and how you end up being forced to talk about bisexuality. I wanted to talk about the Hunger Games series and love triangles.

ROWAN:  That came out of absolutely nowhere and I love to. I— we love a good love triangle discussion on here. 

BREN:  I didn't—I didn't warn you about this?

ROWAN:  No, you didn't. We've not had uh people necessarily talk about love triangles in these types of guest episodes. But we have had some hot takes about love triangles, which is always fun. 

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  So I love—I love to talk about good love triangle. What was going on with the Hunger Games for you?

BREN:  So I think this is gonna turn into a hot take situation. 

ROWAN:  Love it. 

 

BREN:  So I was not a shipper when it came—when it came to The Hunger Games. Like I don't have a strong feeling either direction. Gale, Peeta, whatever. Huge crush on Jennifer Lawrence in the film, though. 

ROWAN:  Yeah, correct. 

BREN:  Of course. She's a woman and she looks like a cat, like in the face. And that's my type. But Katniss is pulled between two men, which feels I think for the majority of viewers, like a very heterosexual situation. But I had so many feelings about it when I first saw it in theaters, which was when I believe I was in like my first relationship with a man at the time. Especially when the later films started coming out. She is like kind of caught between two men, but it's more—it's more of a love quadrangle, and there's a man, there's a man, there's Katniss, and there's trauma. And the trauma is much more important relationship there in the films.  It's about—a lot of it is about trauma, much more than any of it is about romance. But the relationship with Peeta throughout the series could be real, could not be real, we don't know. Because it's so— it is sensationalized. It is a performance, even if there's something real underneath it. And through the years, uh I'm—I am married to a man. And there's a lot of pressure to behave one way or another, about that relationship and in that relationship from all sides. And the performance of that relationship. And that relationship with my own gender in tandem with my partner's gender. And what that means other people think about us. What it makes other people think about our sex life. What it makes other people think about the roles in our relationship, it kind of—at a certain point, it starts feeling like it doesn't matter what that really is, it matters more what other people outside, whether that's like, in the fiction of The Hunger Games, where it's an audience, it's the government, it's the rebellious faction. Or in real life, people watching the film and projecting what they want to be real in—in the fiction. I feel caught in that and I got so emotional, and through that whole series, as a young adult, I think when that was coming out. And still, like, if I watch it again, I still feel that way. Because it feels that the—the perception of what the relationship is, is more important than the reality of what it is and the people inside of it. And how like that pressure and that assumption kind of dissolves what's real—or it can dissolve what's real. It starts feeling like it doesn't matter that much inside. I'm getting very deep about this like, like deeply emotional.

ROWAN:  No, but that's—that's fair. And like also the like that is a motif that is like quite literally baked into the plot of those later films because of Peeta's memory loss. 

BREN:  Yes.

ROWAN:  like what and the uh—and them having to him having to rely on her, and her having to rely on him to—to remember what's real, like they have that game like real or not real. So that actually is like a whole other level of like, reality and like relationship on to it.

BREN: The real or not real makes me cry.

ROWAN:  I—I like oh my god. Now I'm like, maybe I just want to—maybe I wanted to just do a movie day where I just marathon every one of these movies that we kept mentioning. Because every one of them I'm like, either I've already seen it. And I'm like, yes, amazing, or I haven't and I'm like, it sounds so good.

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  But like I also—uh I feel like The Hunger Games even though again, you're right that there is this element of like, wow, so heterosexual. So like, this is the not at all and maybe you would think that the queer people would be into. The first Hunger Games book was one of the books that I did for my dissertation. Tragically, too early, I would say because my dissertation at university was on YA dystopia before the Hunger Games blew up. So I was doing about the book, and the movie had like only I think the first movie had just come out. But it wasn't like a big thing at all. So there was like no writing on it. And now I'm sure that I could do a much better job with—with a topic that people have actually written about. It wasn't just like my 18-year-old self being like, I want to write about dystopias for teenagers. 

BREN:  So ahead of the curve. 

ROWAN:  I know right? But I do think when you read the books, there is a really strong sense in the books of what I would consider to be an obvious like a romantic element to Katniss's character.

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Because like when she's making the decision about who she's going to be with, it is almost entirely divorced from romance. Like it is entirely a practical, like, platonic decision. So she's essentially like the—the decision for her a lot of the time comes down to why would I be with Gale when he can hunt and that's what he brings to a relationship when I can hunt. But Peeta can bake, like what—like that's like the practicalities that she's thinking about it, as it's not as a romantic relationship as such. She's like, I like both of these guys. Like I'm frie—I was friends with Gale for a long time. And I've come to really care about Peeta as a friend. But who am I spending my life with, that's a practical decision? 

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And so I—I see so many ways in which those movies and outside characters like Johanna for example, can be—have these elements of gender and sexuality linked to them su—in such interesting ways. So yeah, that's it. I—I—I agree with you definitely that there is something in those movies even if you don't necessarily—even when you were first watching them that you didn't necessarily clock it. That a lot of queer people I think probably had some feelings about.

BREN:  Yeah. There's a lot to sort of hunt and gather in—in between the lines. I think. It also like—

ROWAN:  What I feel around.

BREN:  Want to talk about like gender? Katniss outside of the games has one outfit. It's like a plain shirt, a jacket, a sweater, and some pants. And mostly she has a weapon. 

ROWAN:  Hmm.

BREN:  And she has one hairstyle.

ROWAN:  Yeah, she's doing a lot of like compensating for her dead father's like—

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  The role of the hunter.

BREN:  Oh right.

ROWAN:  The role of the patriarch of the family like taking responsibility, protecting your— like your family, like all of these sort of elements of things that are praised in men. Katniss is like taken on herself as part of her.

BREN:  Katniss is the strong silent man of the house.

ROWAN: Truly. Like actually, you're completely right. Yeah.

BREN:  Dang. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

BREN:  And then she is in drag for to—to be in the competition.

ROWAN:  Yes, there's—there's these scenes again in the book where she's getting her like nails done for the first time and getting her hair done. And unlike the—the Mia Thermopolis of Princess Diaries, very different transformation scene into the Princess of the District 12 kind of angle. There's no like, we take this and this and give you a princess. It's her being like gross, why all are these people touching me? 

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  She's like oh, only emotion during those scenes. She's not like wow, it looks so beautiful. It's like not—not a vibe for her.

BREN:  She's really not interested. Yeah, I loved the movie. I never finished the book series. And I was to be a book person, but.

ROWAN:  How could you? I've—I genuinely really do feel like the—I need to reread the books again. But I think that they definitely weren't—the movies were definitely picking up on the exploration of stuff that was happening in the books. It was very much focused on her trauma. You're absolutely right. Like the—the books, the movies both they were like, hey, this girl is not okay. Which I also have a lot of respect for, because I think there are lot of movies that are these big blockbusters now like superhero movies, things like that. Don't necessarily take the time to be like hmm, but what would happen if you had gone through all of this nonsense. Like how would you be feeling, uh probably real messed up? You as psychologically not be okay. And so I think it's always—there's always like a real sense of excitement when those things are dealt with in a—in a way that feels truthful, which I think is why you've got the movies that do get so well received. In terms of those plotlines are the ones that actually deal with it in an interesting way. So like, if you're going to talk about Ironman 3 and Tony's like PTSD. If you're going to talk about the new Black Panther movie, and the examination of grief in that if you want to talk about even like Civil War, and Steve and Buckys like very traumatic relationship. I think there's—that's like a reason why those things are generally considered to be elevated slightly above the others, is because they're going to deal with trauma in a way that feels authentic, even in a blockbuster. 

BREN:  Yeah. That's why I liked the ending of— I don't know. Actually, I don't know how the books end, but I'm going to spoil the ending of the films.

ROWAN:  Do it! It's my podcast, and I decide we'll get spoiled. And I've decided you can spoil the end of The Hunger Games.

BREN:  Well, Katniss and Peeta ended up together, and they have kids. And to me, it makes the most sense in the world, they're practically the only people in the world who are going to understand what the other went through. They understand each other's trauma very intimately. And they have relied on each other for so long, to gauge what is real or what is not real, to remember what happens to them. And to see the truth, to see each other. This sounds like an of course thing, but they understand the ins and outs of their relationship before and during the games. That—that alienation from who—who they are, what their feelings really are, or that happened during the games when they had an audience watching them and demanding a very like clean, and pretty, and perfect heterosexuality from them. They understand that pressure and we're the only two that were under that pressure like that. And they understand that.

ROWAN:  Hot take. Hot take here. Katniss and Peeta are a tea-for-tea relationship. They— they understand each other's trauma, they understand the performance that they've had to go through together in the public eye. That's my hot take

BREN:  link.

ROWAN:  Give me that link. I—I'm sure someone has ridden that ship. That's—because that's exactly what you're saying, right? The idea of like, you have a shared trauma, you have a shared way of like, having to navigate public perceptions of you. And like, there are some things that only you—only people who have gone through similar stuff to you can understand. That like, this is really— this is really feeling like a yeah, queer people having that understanding of each other through trauma elements. So.

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  I mean.

BREN:  I could see it. I could see.

ROWAN:  I can see it. 

BREN:  I could also see Bi for Bi.

ROWAN:  Hmm. Yes. They were both—they just bond over how hot Gale is, They're like, not for—not for us in the long term. He did do some war crimes, but like he was all right. We can all admit it. Finnick as well, he was pretty good. 

BREN:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  Just all of this, Johanna in the list.

BREN:  Yeah, of course.

ROWAN:  That was crazy type.

BREN:  Of course.

ROWAN:  Was everyone in the games? Haymitch once in a dream. 

BREN:  Oh, Haymitch, 100%. Here's the thing. Haymitch is hot, I'm sorry.

ROWAN:  Okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. 

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ROWAN:  At this point in the podcast, we would like to thank a few people who got us where we are today and keeping us on the airwaves. So thanks first to Squarespace for sponsoring the podcast. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-one place to do just that. You can use it to build a site, set up an online shop, or connect with your audience. We actually use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website. But I think even cooler is the fact that I use it to make my own website. Because I have some really cute pictures of me on that. I've never been relaxed a day in my life. So I have a lot of projects and social platforms and things that I'm on. But Squarespace lets you not only link it to your social media, but also connect it entirely so that you can display posts from your social profiles on your site, in real-time, plus a ton of analytics and insights that can help you grow your brand. If you need to figure out like where are people coming from when they visit your site? What do they search to get there, and what keywords are being used to find you? Where are the sales coming from? If you have a shop with them, you know, that kind of stuff. They also have some really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. I am very much not a techy person. So I also was very thankful for all of the templates and the easy designer tools that they have, including making sure that the website does not that like absolute trash on mobile. Because you know, nothing's worse than you making this beautiful website on your computer and then you look on mobile and like your incredible gallery is just like one massive picture at a time going down before any of your text, like just absolutely a mess. So easy to do with Squarespace, not a problem whatsoever. So check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch use offer code Queer Movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I would also love to thank our second sponsor, yes, that's why we have two sponsors today. Look at what's going up in the world. Brilliant. So we all know the stereotype that gay people can't do maths, right? Like that's—we've acknowledged that this is a stereotype. And yeah sure, there are some outliers who are, you know, naturally, they just haven't and maths coming out of their brains. But some of us need a little bit of help. So I thought that it might be interesting for us to introduce something that could help us on this journey. That is brilliant.org, which can help you to learn more about math, science, and computer science in bite size, interactive ways. They have quite literally 1000s of lessons with new ones added every month, including one that I was looking at, called the scientific thinking course, using science and engineering in the real world to solve puzzles and apply ideas practically. Whether that's figuring out how like different structures are built or finding your way out of a hall of mirrors. If you're curious about how things work, whether that is computers all the way up to the cosmos itself, then brilliant is a great place to start. topics range from Physics to Computer Science and everything beyond. It's also very visual, which I very much appreciate. Because just reading about science stuff, I feel like I don't really understand what's going on. Cannot make pictures in my brain. And it's also very interactive. So it's very much designed to help make lessons very understandable, even for beginners. You can dip in and out also because there's bite-sized lessons that you can finish in 15 minutes. So if you find yourself being like, oh, I could get a little cheeky hit of dopamine by scrolling through Tiktok for two hours, maybe spend 15 minutes of that two hours doing—doing a fun little lesson learning a little bit about our world in the universe. To get started for free. You can visit brilliant.org/queermoviepodcast. Click on the link in the description and the first 200 of you will get 20% of Brilliant annual premium subscription. And speaking of science, the last thing we want to give a little shout-out to in this section is an incredible podcast which is part of the Multitude collective that the Queer Movie Podcast is also in which is called Exolore. If you haven't heard about it before. Every other week, astrophysicist/folklorist Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests. Interviewing professional world builders or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been created. Incredible. There's humor, there's learning through humor, you will gain an appreciation for how special our planet already is. You can subscribe today by searching Exolore in your podcast app or going to exolorepod.com. 

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ROWAN:  Okay, so that was that was absolutely delightful little palate cleanser of a movie, which people would know um and heard. It was a big book all I feel like yeah, Princess Diaries also, it was a good one. But I—potentially, I know you said you got two more. I feel like are these two gonna be more unhinged to early 2000s terrible movies. Or are we going with something more well-known? 

BREN:  The next two I have are actually queer. 

ROWAN:  Huh. What? That's not healthy series 101. 

BREN:  Canonically.

ROWAN:  People come here with a straight movie. What are you doing? Okay.

BREN:  I gave you some very straight movies, Rowan.  I don't think

ROWAN: I—I can't and I shall not. Okay, so give us the penultimate option.

BREN:  Alright. I want to talk about Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman, which is a—

ROWAN:  Oooh, talking of superheroes. 

BREN:  Yeah. So a polyamorous romance about the creator of Wonder Woman. A queer icon . I—I mean, I'd never seen a movie like this before.

ROWAN:  Hmm. Yeah, no, this is—this is a, a movie that you would expect. Like if you knew about the biography of the people involved, that you would expect that it would be like, straight washed, like sanitized.

BREN:  Yes.

ROWAN:  Like very much so, that it wouldn't really tell the true story. That it would try and make it like, I know weird inspirational elements to it, rather than So but like, how was your experience with it? Like, did you know about any of the background beforehand? Or did you go into this movie, not knowing what to expect?

BREN:  I went into it. I knew what, like—I knew that it was going to be a poly romance. I didn't know the full story of like, how it went. And I went in expecting a devastating ending. Because at this point, this would have been maybe I was like 25 or 26 when I watched this. And I—I just expected like the pattern of how these things go, that—

ROWAN:  He'd been burned before. 

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  He'd be burned again.

BREN:  Yeah. Historical, biographical film, about two women and a man falling in love. All with each other, was going to end with devastation. And there is like there is sadness in the ending. But it's not completely sad. After so many films where I have had to patch work together some sort of fake representation in my head of what I am, something to relate to. Even in like lots of other love triangle films where in the end, you have to choose one. One of them will be, you know correct or one of them will be canonical.  Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman is just—there's a couple and they fall in love with another woman. And it kind of just works out for them all in the end. Like they go to their death altogether. In the end of the film, the man dies, and the women—

ROWAN:  What?

BREN:  Are together for the rest of their life. 

ROWAN:  This is so cute. Oooh, this is truly just like—like you mentioning. 

BREN:  This experience of not having to, like watch a choice be made and understand in your heart, that the choice is telling you what you're supposed to do. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

BREN:  That's prescriptive. Like you can only have one.

ROWAN:  Yeah, this is the right thing. Like this is what you should be doing.

BREN:  This is the right thing, the wife. Professor Marston's wife should have had to choose. That's—that's—that's what would happen in any other movie. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

BREN:  Is that she would have to choose between this woman and this man? And she doesn't.

ROWAN:  I truly like so shocked by this when I—when it first was people talking about it in that it was coming out. And that it wasn't like it was a very classic, mid-budget kind of movie. Like it was—It wasn't some like underground. Like, oh, we've had to do it ourselves. Like in the dark of the night kind of situation. That was like so exciting. 

BREN:  Yeah. I think that even if— even if you're monogamous and bisexual, I think it—it's a very beautiful experience. Because in so much BI media that is about specifically bisexual women coming to a realization that they're queer. That realization often comes at the cost of a relationship that they're already in with a man, which is fine, and a real thing that happens. And like I have not, I'm not saying that can't be a good story. But when it's like maybe the main story that you see, that's also positive about bisexuality, that can be like pretty painful. If you're already in a relationship that's fulfilling and good, that the only way there is to explore your sexuality is to blow up your life, that you already have. And maybe you're—or happy with more or less. But in this book, they discover something new. And their relationship is strengthened by it.

ROWAN:  I—I love that. 

BREN:  It's—it's very beautiful. It's very beautiful. And also watching it—it's also not just the beginning of that relationship. It's—it's not a romantic story, where it ends with a wedding. It ends with, they create a life together, and they age together. They raise children together, they have a queer middle age.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

BREN:  You know, and although in many cases like their life, and their relationship does make them unsafe, or it makes it difficult for them to be successful, or it—it puts them in danger. In other ways, they also find people who accept them and understand them. And they find a lot of fulfillment with each other, and their children love them. And it's—it's just like, the idea of a queer middle age, the idea of a bisexual middle age also because so much bisexual fiction of—of any format is about young bisexual people. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

BREN:  That meant so much to me watching it in my mid 20s. Truly unable to imagine what the rest of my life looked like as a bi person. So I don't know, it's—it's lovely it's also— it's also kinky like that didn't really factor in, but I feel like people should know

ROWAN:  But we're going to add that. 

BREN:  People should know.

ROWAN:  Um, I was little kinky. I—I yeah cause I'm thinking about the like shows or media that I've that I know of that have this like poly element to them. That are more magic so like the ending of Sense Eight songs a love triangle with just being like what if we all were in a relationship together? We love to see it. And again, it has that, that element of like we're strengthening a relationship. This is not something that's going to be bought that's going to turn to jealousy. This is not something that's like okay, we need you to break up with these guys. You can be with this guy, it very much was like okay, actually, we each individually within this relationship have a relationship to each other. That feels dynamic and interesting, and fulfilling and respectful.

BREN:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And then also Iron Widow, which is, a YA book that came out this year, which ends in a polyamorous relationship between the main girl and the two guys.

BREN:  Incredible.

ROWAN:  10 out of 10.

BREN:  It's so good.

ROWAN:  Like the most— it's like, it is so funny because it's the classic like, best friend from childhood who she didn't consider to be an option until he was. And then brooding bad boy with a secret soft side and sight like all the classic marks of  YA love triangle and then they simply wam, what if they just all kiss? What it's got to do on what's happening?

BREN:  It's good shit.

ROWAN:  10 out of 10 and—

BREN:  Incredible.

ROWAN:  More of that, please. We'd love to see it.

BREN:  Please.

ROWAN:  And also I really like the fact that we have like, she's explicitly bisexual within it. But she's not made to be in a love triangle with a man and a woman to like, prove that, that's how her bisexuality works. It's like, no, no, she's also like figuring out that she likes women. But right now, there are two guys that she fancies. 

BREN:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  And that, that can be their relationship that they have. 

BREN:  Yeah, and the—and the book like ends that way. 

ROWAN:  I was like doing a lot of like kiss, kiss. I know that you're like, you know, wearing giant mech suits and like fighting monsters and all this stuff. I'm like, kiss, kiss, kiss. You know, I really know what to appreciate. And these—these incredible science fiction epics that I am mentioning. And I'm like, what if everyone just had a nice time? And they got to kiss people that want to kiss.

BREN:  There's also a real like, gender fucky element to, to Iron Widow. 

ROWAN:  Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

BREN:  We're talking about books again. We're doing it again, Rowan. 

ROWAN:  So um, so so this is again the—this is the—what is it, like a backdoor pilot where they try and do like, spin-off. Like this is the backdoor pilot for queer book podcast. I think we've got time for one more option if you've got another movie that you want us to talk about.

BREN:  Yeah, well, let's end with gender. 

ROWAN:  Let's end with gender.

BREN:  End with gender. The end of gender now. So this morning, I've rewatched this because I had only seen it once in my life, but it like made a real impact. And that's Victori/Victoria, starring Julie Andrews.

ROWAN:  The Julie Andrews movie. 

BREN:  Yes. 

ROWAN:  I haven't seen it. But would you like to explain to the lovely people at home? What— what is it about?

BREN:  Well, it's a little bit of a tangle, isn't it? Julie Andrews plays Victoria, who—she's a singer, and she's unable to get work. And she develops this friendship with a gay man, who through a series of unfortunate and—and—and complicated events, she ends up being forced to cross-dress, which we love that trope, don't we? And while she's cross-dressing, he has this idea that they try to get her work by passing her off as a man. Who can who ha—who just has a very high register to his voice so that she can do that basically a cross-dressing act. And they pursue this she's a woman pretending to be a man, pretending to be a woman throughout the whole thing. So there's—there's—

ROWAN:  There's layers.

BREN:  There's layers, and then there's also a man who's is very attracted to her when she's a man playing a woman. And he has a whole like fucked up thing about how— how he relates to her and himself and—and how he deals with his own sexuality. In this scenario, which that part of the movie, throw it in the trash.

ROWAN:  Okay, love that. 

BREN:  Throw it in the trash. It's—it's—it's—there's—there's some unfortunate things with this film. And there's also a lot of beauty. I think when you first see Julie Andrews, fully dressed up in her like pinstripe suit and—and dapper little hat. She is coming out of a wardrobe and she punches a man in the face.

ROWAN:  Amazing.

BREN:  Which—

ROWAN:  That's gender.

BREN:  That's gender. But as the movie is so much about how gender and perception of gender is very malleable. And how people li—like how much context is important to how people perceive you. And there's a lot of incredible lines by the—the gay mair—main character, Toddy. He's like this aging gay performer. I think he's a singer. He's—he's old. He's poor at this point. He's not super successful and teaming up with Victoria, like gets in that success again, but they also have a very real and—and close emotional relationship. There's so many great lines from him. And there's this one scene where they're walking down the street together. The first time she's walked down a street as a man.  And he's talking to her about how there's so many ways to be a man. She's convinced she can't pass as a man because she doesn't talk right or walk right or, you know, she doesn't have this without anatomy. And he gives her this pep talk. This basically says like, there are all kinds of ways to be a man. There's all kinds of men who act all kinds of ways. Men love and live in so many different ways. And people see what they expect to see. There's so much interesting to dissect. Now I watched this when I was probably 18. I—my first job was at a used bookstore. And we also got DVDs and at the used bookstore. And so I stole this from my job.

ROWAN:  Wow.

BREN:  Because I was living with my very homophobic parents. And I stole the DVD from work in order to watch it because I'd never seen anything like that. And it—it was the first time I'd ever heard any of these sentiments. There's like—there's a, there's a line where—where Victoria talks about how homosexuality is only a sin to pious men and terrified heterosexuals. And that, like open my brain in this new way of like, oh, it's fear. Oh, I'm afraid. It's not that I thought something was wrong. It wasn't that people around me necessarily even like had any justification for thinking that this was wrong. It was that they were afraid, and what were they afraid of? 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

BREN:  So these two repeating themes or elements through the movie, which is like one, Julie Andrews's character will sometimes release a cockroach from her purse to try to get free food and things like that in restaurants. But cockroaches come up at various points as this thing you can introduce to a scene and suddenly everyone is like a fight will break out, people will be yelling, screaming, the scene is disrupted. And there's also this repeated thing where Victoria will sing a very high note, and it will break all the glass in the room. It reflected to me how behaving differently, speaking differently introducing queerness into any of the spaces in my life at the time, because I didn't have a lot of queer friends, or possibly—possibly any at that point, would like ruin the scene. That if I release this—this thing into the room, it causes chaos. And that is what people are afraid of. That is what Heterosexuals are terrified of. And it started sort of opening up that like, well, maybe it's not reasonable at all for that—for people to be scared of this. Maybe this is not hurting anybody actually. Like I said, I only saw this film once. Before I rewatched it. 

ROWAN:  But it had an effect, clearly.

BREN:  It—it really did. Because—because it was—it was more than just vibes. It isn't explicitly queer film. And it doesn't like, well, there are certainly homophobic and transphobic elements to it, like 100% it also is largely quite positive towards the queer characters. Toddy, the gay man main character ends with—with a partner, and nothing happens to them. They're okay. They—they just live life together from there. It was so different from anything I'd seen before. There was no need to patchwork anything together. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. End it.

BREN:  Yeah. It planted a lot of seeds that have only really come to fruition now, like—like in my late 20s, like lots of those really started to grow and feel real. And feel like something that I could claim and stand really solidly in. So thanks, Julie Andrews.

ROWAN:  Thanks, Julie. Oh, in two of these movies from you.

BREN:  She is.

ROWAN:  She is she's in Princess Diaries as well. Truly, Julie is the MVP of this episode. 

BREN:  So much to thank Julie Andrews for.

ROWAN:  Truly. Um, thank you so much and like speaking of thanking, thank you for being on this podcast, because that was amazing. I feel like we went to so many different places, had such a good discussion, you bought some excellent choices to the—to the show, including your  books, but you know, for your I'll allow it.

BREN:  We're not literate around here.

ROWAN:  And thank you so much for sharing all of that, because that's fascinating. And I know that a lot of people are going to see themselves in, you know, maybe not the exact example of Hoot. Although, you know, we never know. But in that sense of understanding the outsider, like having a connection to these characters, and not necessarily knowing why like all of these elements, which I think is something that comes up again and again in these episodes. And I love to see what weird and wonderful things people have her bought to it. So thank you very much for joining me. 

BREN:  Of course, this was really fun. Everybody go watch Hoot from 2006.

ROWAN:  And when I suddenly like a weird uptick in views and they're like, the producers are like in the background be like, how did this happen? 

BREN:  We got to get the Rotten Tomatoes score up everybody. I expect to see at least a 27% after this episode.

ROWAN:  Otherwise, what was the point? This whole thing has been a campaign, an introduction to a campaign to get it up to 27%. So where—where can people find you if they would like to find you/ your work online? Where should they go?

BREN:  Alright. Well, for my personal work, uh my website is brenfrederick.com. But I would much rather you go check out the Bi Pan library at bipanlibrary.com, or at Bi Pan library on Instagram and Twitter. I'm most active on Instagram. Yeah, the Bi Pan Library is a resource for all, friendly to all Bi Pa, M-spec, people out there and their allies and friends and family.

ROWAN:  Amazing. 

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ROWAN:  So that is it for another episode of the Queer Movie Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If you've enjoyed this episode, then make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast. So you're primed for our next episode in your podcast app of choice. And if you like what you hear, consider supporting us over on Patreon where we have some very fun perks on our thanks, including monthly queer movie watch along on our Discord. Extremely fun. You can also follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram for some behind-the-scenes content as and when Jazza and I remember to do that. And we would like to as part of this thanks once again, Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon rainbow parent. We are so happy to have your support and we wanted to thank you once again. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode. I've been Rowan Ellis, we are edited by Julia Schifini and a part of the Multitude collective. Find more of their amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much and you will hear from us very soon.