Explore every episode of the podcast Profound

I have a conversation with Katie Anderson, Rob Park, and Glenn Wilson in this episode as we reflect on an experience that is difficult to replicate from a book, conference, or classroom: going to Japan to see the principles behind Lean, continuous improvement, and Toyota firsthand.

Katie, author of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn, leads immersive learning experiences in Japan, and Rob, Glenn, and I have joined her on different cohorts. Together, we explore what happens when ideas from W. Edwards Deming, Lean, Toyota, DevOps, and continuous improvement move beyond concepts we understand intellectually and become something we can actually see, experience, and bring back into our own work.

Rob describes seeing an Andon in action and watching a team leader immediately work alongside an employee to solve a problem. Glenn connects that experience directly to DevOps and software security, asking what it would mean if technology organizations genuinely responded to problems rather than allowing defects and vulnerabilities to accumulate. However, some of the most lasting lessons came from places they didn't necessarily expect. From watching children take responsibility for cleaning their school to experiencing Japanese approaches to purpose, community, long-term thinking, and improvement, we discovered why simply copying Toyota's practices misses something important. Glenn returned more curious and less prescriptive with his clients. Rob similarly moved away from arriving as the expert with the answer and toward helping teams discover their own path to improvement.

We also explore the relationship between Deming and Japan. Rather than viewing Deming simply as someone who transformed Japanese management, I reflect on the possibility that Japan transformed Deming as well. Spending time with former Toyota leader Isao Yoshino, who began his Toyota career in 1967, makes that history especially tangible, including his perspective on Deming's influence and the importance of understanding data.

Throughout the conversation, stories from factories, an elementary school, the Toyota museum, the Shinkansen cleaning operation, the 100-Year Calendar, and Japanese daruma dolls reveal why Katie describes these experiences as moving our understanding “from the head to the heart.” The real lesson isn't to imitate Japan or collect another set of Lean tools. It's learning to see differently.

For anyone who has studied Deming, Lean, Agile, DevOps, or continuous improvement and wondered what changes when you experience these ideas where so much of their history was shaped, this conversation offers a glimpse. Katie's next Japan learning experience takes place this November, and enrollment is now in its final days. Details are available at kbjanderson.com/japantrip.

In this episode, I have a conversation with Laksh Raghavan. We dive deep into the origins of cybernetics, second-order systems thinking, and why W. Edwards Deming's philosophy remains as relevant as ever in today's AI-driven world. Laksh, founder of Cybersyn Labs and a systems thinker specializing in cybersecurity and executive coaching, shares how cybernetics provides a powerful framework for understanding organizations, leadership, and digital transformation.

The conversation begins by tracing the roots of cybernetics through Norbert Wiener before moving into the groundbreaking work of Heinz von Foerster, whose concept of second-order cybernetics shifts the focus from simply observing systems to recognizing that the observer is part of the system. Laksh explains that every observation is shaped by our experiences, biases, and mental models, making objectivity impossible without acknowledging the observer. This perspective has profound implications for leadership, collaboration, and organizational decision-making.

We then explore how these ideas connect directly to Deming's System of Profound Knowledge. Organizations often struggle because leaders attempt to implement transformations, whether AI initiatives, DevOps, or cybersecurity programs, without understanding the human system that must adopt them. Rather than imposing top-down solutions, successful leaders cultivate conversations, seek diverse perspectives, and recognize that understanding emerges through interaction rather than command.

The discussion also examines why complexity cannot be managed through rigid control. Using examples from chaos engineering, biological evolution, and Heinz von Foerster's demonstrations of "order from noise," Laksh argues that experimentation, feedback, and variation are essential for innovation. These concepts naturally lead into Stafford Beer's management cybernetics and Ross Ashby's Law of Requisite Variety, illustrating that organizations survive by increasing their capacity to respond to complexity rather than attempting to eliminate it.

Throughout the conversation, Deming's influence is unmistakable. Whether discussing going to the Gemba, embracing continual learning, or recognizing that organizational transformation begins with transformed leaders, Laksh reinforces that lasting change requires epistemic humility, the willingness to admit we may not fully understand the systems we lead. As AI reshapes every industry, the greatest opportunity lies not in adopting new technology, but in developing leaders capable of seeing organizations as living systems where learning, adaptation, and multiple perspectives create enduring success.

Ultimately, this episode reminds us that digital transformation is not primarily a technology challenge; it’s a systems challenge. By combining Deming's teachings with modern cybernetics, Laksh offers a compelling vision for building organizations that are more resilient, adaptive, and fundamentally human.

Laksh's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraghavan/

I have a conversation with Balaji Reddie in this episode. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality, exploring how Deming’s ideas continue to shape modern management, systems thinking, and organizational transformation. Balaji shares his personal journey into quality management, including a remarkable family connection to Japan and a Deming Prize-winning company that sparked his lifelong fascination with Deming’s work. 

The discussion examines why Deming’s teachings remain both powerful and challenging. Balaji explains that, unlike many quality thinkers who provided step-by-step methods, Deming focused on helping leaders understand why systems behave the way they do. This distinction leads to a rich conversation about the relationship between Deming and Joseph Juran, with Balaji highlighting how Deming inspired transformational thinking at the leadership level while Juran provided practical management structures that helped organizations implement quality initiatives. 

A significant portion of the conversation explores the history of post-war Japan. Balaji recounts how Deming’s message resonated with Japanese leaders not only because of his statistical expertise, but because he offered hope, direction, and a compelling vision for national and industrial renewal. The discussion challenges simplistic narratives about the “Japanese miracle,” emphasizing the role of Japanese industry leaders who embraced these ideas and adapted them to their own context. 

The episode also dives into Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge. Balaji explains the interconnected nature of systems thinking, variation, theory of knowledge, and psychology, emphasizing that these concepts cannot be understood in isolation. He offers practical interpretations of control charts, variation, learning, prediction, and continuous improvement, illustrating how Deming’s philosophy extends far beyond manufacturing into any complex system. 

Toward the end of the conversation, John and Balaji connect Deming’s ideas to emerging technologies such as AI and agentic systems. They discuss how Deming’s principles around systems, responsibility, variation, and learning may become even more relevant as organizations increasingly rely on autonomous technologies. The episode concludes with reflections on education, leadership, and the enduring importance of understanding systems rather than merely managing outcomes. 

Links:
Balaji Reddie's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/deming/

I have a conversation with Kendra MacDonald in this episode. As CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, Kendra is helping reshape how industries, governments, researchers, and technologists collaborate around one of the planet’s most important and least understood systems: the ocean. We dive deep into how emerging technologies like AI, autonomous systems, and quantum computing are transforming the ocean economy, while also exploring the organizational and leadership challenges that come with innovation at scale.

Kendra explains how the Ocean Supercluster was created as a national effort to accelerate commercialization, strengthen collaboration, and modernize ocean industries through technology. The conversation expands beyond marine innovation into broader themes of systems thinking, digital transformation, and the importance of solving business problems before deploying technology. Drawing from her background at Deloitte and her work advising organizations on technology adoption, Kendra shares why so many AI initiatives struggle, not because of the tools themselves, but because organizations fail to align culture, governance, and operational goals.

We also explore the tension between innovation and governance, challenging the common belief that controls slow progress. Kendra argues that thoughtful governance, risk management, and cross-functional collaboration actually accelerate innovation by creating trust and reducing downstream failures. The discussion touches on AI risk in high-consequence environments, autonomous shipping, data trust, digital twins, predictive maintenance, and the growing role of AI in optimizing maritime operations.

One of the most compelling parts of the conversation centers on the future of quantum computing and its potential impact on ocean science, logistics, climate prediction, and biodiversity discovery. Kendra and John reflect on how industries can prepare now for technologies that may radically reshape optimization and decision-making in the coming decade.

The episode ultimately becomes a broader reflection on interconnected systems, oceans, organizations, technology ecosystems, and society itself. Kendra offers a powerful reminder that the ocean is not simply a coastal issue, but a global infrastructure system affecting supply chains, climate resilience, communications, energy, and food security. It’s a thoughtful discussion about innovation stewardship, systems thinking, and the responsibility of leaders to build technology strategies grounded in purpose and long-term impact.

I have a conversation with Farhan Sheikh in this episode. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge and explore how its principles can be applied to modern software development and AI-assisted coding.

Farhan shares his unique journey from developer to QA leader, where he applied Deming’s philosophy, particularly variation, theory of knowledge, and systems thinking, to transform how teams approach quality. Rather than relying on inspection at the end, he emphasizes building quality into the process through better test design, tighter feedback loops, and collaboration between testers and developers.

A central theme is Farhan’s “Darmok” approach: using structured examples and test cases to guide AI systems like Claude, instead of relying heavily on prompts. By feeding AI consistent, well-sequenced patterns, he demonstrates how teams can reduce variation in AI-generated code and achieve more reliable outcomes. This mirrors Deming’s principles, controlling variation and improving systems rather than reacting to defects.

The conversation also explores the evolving role of QA. Farhan argues that testers, with their strength in asking critical questions and creating clear examples, are uniquely positioned to become key players in AI-driven development. This shift blurs traditional roles, pointing toward a new kind of multidisciplinary “AI producer” who integrates development, testing, and system-level thinking.

Psychology and leadership emerge as critical factors. Farhan candidly discusses overcoming fear within teams, aligning motivations through data and experimentation, and the importance of leaders enabling systemic change rather than reinforcing silos.

The episode concludes with a powerful reflection: true digital transformation isn’t about adopting AI tools in isolation, but about rethinking the entire system of work through Deming’s lens, focusing on quality, reducing variation, and empowering people to learn and adapt.

Notes:

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/farhan-sheikh-fivetwofoureight

Github: https://github.com/farhan5248

Website: https://specificationbyprompt.com

In this episode, Glenn Wilson, a cybersecurity expert, joins me to explore how systems thinking can reshape how we approach cybersecurity, vulnerability management, and modern digital systems.

Glenn shares his journey from writing about DevSecOps to pursuing a master’s degree in Systems Thinking in Practice at the Open University. His motivation came from recognizing a troubling contradiction that, despite massive investments in cybersecurity, data breaches, ransomware incidents, and security failures continue to rise. This led him to question whether the industry’s largely reductionist approach misses the broader system dynamics at play.

A central part of the discussion focuses on Stafford Beer’s Viable System Model (VSM), a cybernetic framework for understanding how organizations maintain balance and adapt to their environments. Glenn explains how VSM’s five subsystems can be used to diagnose why cybersecurity systems often fail. Rather than viewing security as a set of tools or controls, Glenn argues it should be understood as a living system embedded within larger organizational and risk systems.

The conversation then expands into cybernetics, emergence, and AI, touching on Norbert Wiener, Ross Ashby’s law of requisite variety, and John Boyd’s OODA framework. Together, we discuss how feedback loops, adaptation, and emergent behavior shape both human organizations and AI-driven systems. Glenn raises an important concern: if organizations don’t adopt systems thinking, increasing automation and AI could amplify weaknesses rather than solve them.

We close by reflecting on the relationship between humans, AI, and complex systems. Glenn emphasizes that AI should be treated as a tool within a larger system, not anthropomorphized as human intelligence. The key challenge ahead is understanding how humans and intelligent tools coexist within systems that are adaptive, emergent, and increasingly complex.

The big takeaway: cybersecurity cannot be improved by optimizing isolated parts. Real progress requires understanding the entire system and our place within it.

In this episode, I have an insightful and wide-ranging conversation with Carol Houle, CEO of Inspire Digital Consulting. We explore her career journey across software development, lean supply chain transformation, cloud, and DevOps, and how these experiences led her to a central conviction: leadership is the primary bottleneck in digital transformation.

Carol traces her roots back to early exposure to TQM and W. Edwards Deming during her undergraduate studies and her work at Pricewaterhouse Consulting in the 1990s, where lean principles were applied to supply chains. As Carol moved into larger leadership roles, a consistent pattern emerged: transformation efforts stalled not because of teams or tools, but because leaders themselves were the constraint. Yet leadership is rarely examined.

Carol introduces her book and the Inspired Leadership Framework, which grew organically over a decade of observation, writing, and experimentation. Drawing from her experience spanning business, she distills leadership into measurable dimensions.

Looking forward, Carol connects leadership quality to the coming era of agentic AI. AI will amplify whatever already exists. Weak leadership, unclear purpose, or misaligned incentives will scale into systemic risk. She introduces the idea of “benevolent AI agents” that help detect bias, misalignment, and deviations from stated intent.

Show Notes:

You can learn more about Inspired Digital Consulting and take the Inspired Leadership Assessment here - https://inspiredigitalconsulting.com/

Carol Houle's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolhoule/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I continue the conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom, moving deeper into the origins and intent behind the In2:In Thinking Network and what it truly means to “think about our thinking.”

Bill shares the lesser-known backstory of how In2:In Thinking came to be, from its early roots as the West Coast Quality Forum to the deliberate choice to move beyond Deming’s name alone. He explains why creating new language matters when changing systems, and how words like “quality,” “thinking,” and even “together” can trap us in old meanings unless we consciously redefine them.

The discussion turns to incentives, commissions, and performance management, one of the most difficult and controversial areas of applying Deming’s philosophy. Through real-world examples from sales organizations, manufacturing, and leadership roles, we explore how individual incentives often drive behavior that harms the system as a whole, even when intentions are good. Bill and I unpack why these problems aren’t about “bad people,” but about systems that reward the wrong outcomes.

Lori introduces curiosity as a unifying theme, curiosity not just about external problems, but about our own assumptions, beliefs, and patterns of thinking. We connect curiosity to empathy, beginner’s mind, and the ability to see work as “part of” a larger system rather than isolated tasks. From parenting to leadership to organizational design, the conversation highlights how asking better questions can unlock better action.

The episode closes by reinforcing a critical point: In2:In Thinking is not about endless reflection. Thinking about thinking must ultimately lead to better decisions, better cooperation, and better results. This balance between mindfulness and action, reflection, and delivery is at the heart of Deming’s work and the mission of the In2:In Thinking Network.

To kick start season 6 of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom. Together, we explore how W. Edwards Deming’s philosophy continues to challenge prevailing styles of management, and why curiosity, systems thinking, and better questions matter more than ever in today’s digital and organizational landscape.

Lori shares her personal journey from Georgia Tech to the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham, describing the “light-bulb moment” that came from discovering Deming’s work. She reflects on learning in an environment without grades, without competition, and with a deep emphasis on cooperation, intrinsic motivation, and real-world application. Her story illustrates how Deming’s ideas resonate with people who sense that “something is off” in traditional management but lack the language to name it.

Dr. Bellows expands the discussion by reflecting on Deming’s later years, his frustration at being misunderstood, and his push to move beyond prescriptions like the 14 Points toward deeper thinking about our thinking. He recounts the origins of the In2:In Thinking Network, the importance of making Deming’s ideas accessible, and why changing words and the meaning behind them matters when changing systems.

Across the episode, we connect Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge to modern challenges in education, large enterprises, and digital transformation. From AI and critical thinking to burnout inside massive organizations, this conversation highlights why real change doesn’t come from tools or methods alone, but from learning to see systems differently, ask better questions, and create environments where people can truly learn.

Show Notes:

http://www.in2in.org/

https://www.in2in.org/contact

I have a conversation with Diane Kulisek in this episode. Diane, a veteran in quality systems and regulatory affairs, shares her journey from Gillette to Rocketdyne to Johnson & Johnson, weaving in the principles of Deming and the realities of complex, high-stakes industries. We dive into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality and how they’ve shaped Diane’s extraordinary career across aerospace, consumer products, and medical device manufacturing. 

We start with Diane’s early work at Gillette, where she first encountered military-grade quality standards, and move into her groundbreaking experience at Rocketdyne. There, she managed space shuttle main engine avionics and led self-managed teams. Diane highlights the power of elected management and the deep cultural dysfunctions she observed, drawing sharp analogies to adult children of alcoholics and the normalization of deviance in corporate environments.

Our conversation then pivots to regulatory complexity. Diane explains how compliance efforts in medical device manufacturing must transcend minimum standards to uphold the priceless value of human life. She critiques the profit-centric motives of insurance companies and exposes the structural misalignments that can compromise quality in favor of greed and speed.

We also explore the limitations and potential of AI in auditing, with Diane emphasizing the importance of human experience in identifying risk and systemic failures. She proposes the provocative idea of creating an “AI Deming,” using Deming’s extensive body of work to model principled decision-making.

Diane’s reflections bring a critical eye to regulatory frameworks, the ethics of risk management, and the potential of technology to augment human insight. Through it all, she remains grounded in Deming’s enduring vision that quality is a moral imperative and a societal good.

This is Diane's LinkedIn Page:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dkulisek

Show Notes:

1: https://www.scribd.com/document/451480272/MIL-Q-9858A-Quality-Program-Requirements-pdf

2: https://adultchildren.org

3: https://www.acquisition.gov/far/16.305

4: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB991862606575154843

5: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/708066main_Shuttle_Bibliography_2-ebook.pdf?emrc=c67e14

6: https://www.irvinestandard.com/2023/johnson-johnsons-innovation-irvine-roots-and-credo-to-give-back/

7: https://asq.org/-/media/ASQ-Supplemental-Media-Import/1/3/9/2/6/ar_1106_105018.pdf

8: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/oalj/PUBLIC/WHISTLEBLOWER/REFERENCES/STATUTES/SARBANES_OXLEY_ACT_OF_2002.PDF

9: https://store.pda.org/TableOfContents/Risk_Assessment_Ch01.pdf

10: https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/class-action-lawsuit-against-unitedhealths-ai-claim-denials-advances

11: 

In this episode, I have a conversation with Doug Finke. A 16-time Microsoft MVP and long-time technologist, Doug’s experience ranges from mainframe assembly programming to pioneering AI integrations in software development. We reminisce about the early days of system programming and explore how those foundational skills have enabled technologists like Doug to excel in the rapidly evolving world of AI.

Doug shares his journey from COBOL and assembler to becoming a PowerShell innovator, highlighting how his early exposure to structured programming and domain-specific languages now serves as a superpower in working with large language models (LLMs). Our discussion pivots to the game-changing potential of AI, specifically the rise of function calling, modular design, and the Model-Context-Protocol (MCP). Doug explains how these patterns transform AI from simple copilots into powerful collaborators capable of orchestrating entire software systems.

We also look at the implications of AI-driven software development for enterprises, examining whether vertical SaaS solutions may soon be disrupted by in-house, AI-built alternatives. Doug emphasizes how AI accelerates both code creation and maintenance, challenging long-held assumptions about whether to buy or build software.

Our conversation concludes with a philosophical lens on teaching AI, the evolving role of junior developers, and the importance of naming, structure, and design patterns in crafting software that AI can effectively understand and extend. Whether you're deep into AI tooling or just starting to explore, Doug's perspective offers a clear bridge between classical computing and today's transformative technologies.

I have a fantastic conversation with Lonnie Wilson in this episode, diving deep into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality, systems thinking, and the enduring challenges of operationalizing his philosophy in the real world. Lonnie also shares how his initial admiration for Chevron's management practices began to unravel after encountering Deming's writings in the mid-1980s.

The episode opens with Lonnie recounting his experience attending one of Deming's four-day seminars. His anecdote about Deming’s instantaneous answer to a deceptively simple question. Lonnie reflects on Deming's often enigmatic style, particularly his refusal to provide concrete answers to complex management questions, such as what to replace performance appraisals with.

We explore the tension between Deming’s abstract guidance and the practical application of his ideas in corporate environments. Lonnie shares his journey of attempting to implement cultural change through Deming’s 14 Points, only to face organizational resistance and surface-level interest. This led him to develop pragmatic systems that bridged the gap between Deming's theory and the day-to-day realities of business operations.

Lonnie and I delve into critical questions: Was Deming’s refusal to provide prescriptive answers a form of intellectual elitism or a deliberate nudge toward self-discovery? How did his lack of direct management experience influence his worldview? Lonnie argues that while Deming's concepts were revolutionary, they were often delivered without a “method for method,” leaving followers to forge their paths.

The conversation concludes on a reflective note, with both of us acknowledging that, despite the depth and accuracy of Deming’s ideas, much of the corporate world has either misunderstood or ignored them. If Deming were alive today, Lonnie believes he would be dismayed by the lack of progress in management thinking and would challenge his disciples to evolve and iterate on his foundational work.

I'm still trying to figure out how to produce the audiobook for Rebels of Reason. This is my first experiment with 11Labs. It's not great. I will have to work on the voice equipment; however, it's a start. I hope you enjoy it. 

I have a deeply insightful conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows in this episode of the Profound Podcast. We dive into the heart of what it means to think about thinking—a concept that lies at the core of the In2:InThinking Network, a community Dr. Bellows co-founded to carry forward the transformational work of W. Edwards Deming and other systems pioneers.

At the center of our discussion is the 2025 In2:InThinking Forum, happening this June 20–22 in Santa Clarita, California, and also available virtually for free via live stream. It's a gathering of minds, where humility, curiosity, and collaboration take center stage. If you're in DevOps, digital transformation, or operations—and especially if you're exploring how Deming's ideas apply in modern contexts—this is the event for you.

Dr. Bellows takes us on a journey through the origins and evolution of the In2:InThinking Network, which emerged in the early 2000s as a response to the declining presence of Deming-centered conferences. Recognizing the need for a West Coast community of deep thinkers and doers, Dr. Bellows and his colleagues created a space where engineers, IT professionals, healthcare leaders, and educators could unite in their pursuit of better systems thinking and action.

We explore how systems thinking applies far beyond manufacturing, touching software delivery, digital infrastructure, education, and even AI. Dr. Bellows shares why this kind of egoless, psychologically safe environment is essential for innovation, allowing both newcomers and veterans to engage deeply without pretension.

We also touch on the Red Bead Experiment, Deming’s ideas on variation, and the costs of overlooking systemic thinking in today’s organizations. Dr. Bellows reminds us that better systems start with better conversations—and that starts with communities like In2:InThinking.

You can sign up for the event on In2:InThinking Network’s website: https://www.in2in.org

In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Jim Highsmith. We dive into Jim’s six-decade career in software development, his role in the Agile movement, and how his early influences continue to shape his thinking on digital transformation today. Jim shares stories from the punch card era to the Agile Manifesto, offering insight into the evolution of our industry.

We begin by exploring Jim's early work at Exxon, debugging code with hexadecimal printouts, and his eventual pivot into structured methods and adaptive development showing a career built on embracing risk, fostering change, and learning through experience.

Jim recounts the serendipitous path that led him to the Agile Manifesto in 2001, where he collaborated with figures like Kent Beck and Martin Fowler. He shares how his early thinking around adaptive methodologies aligned with what became known as Agile, even before the term existed. Throughout, Jim highlights how technological shifts, especially the rise of the internet, fundamentally altered software's purpose requiring new development paradigms.

In reflecting on Agile’s legacy, Jim contrasts optimization (à la Deming’s statistical process control) with adaptation (rooted in people, learning, and responsiveness). He emphasizes the importance of context in applying any methodology, whether Agile, Lean, or DevOps, and cautions against rigid orthodoxy in favor of flexible thinking. The conversation also touches on Deming’s influence, the missed opportunity for Agile and DevOps convergence, and Jim’s role in fostering integration between the Agile Alliance and the Project Management Institute (PMI).

Looking to the future, Jim sees AI as a transformation on the scale of the internet, requiring organizations to adopt adaptive mindsets or risk irrelevance. He warns that those who fail at Agile will likely fail at AI if they don’t build adaptive learning into their culture. He advocates for reimagining agility not as a fixed set of practices, but as a living, philosophical approach responsive to continual change.

In this episode, I sit down with Mark Graban, a leading voice in Lean and continuous improvement, to explore the enduring relevance of W. Edwards Deming’s principles in modern industries. Mark shares his decades of work in healthcare, manufacturing, and leadership consulting.

We dive into key themes from Mark’s career and writing, particularly his latest book, The Mistakes That Make Us: Cultivating a Culture of Learning and Innovation. He emphasizes how Deming’s ideas, such as eliminating fear and focusing on systemic improvement, remain critical today—especially in healthcare, where Lean and quality management have taken root in pockets but struggle to become the prevailing management philosophy.

A major focus of our discussion is the power of learning from mistakes. Mark explains how organizations like Toyota have embedded problem-solving into their culture, emphasizing that true improvement starts with surfacing problems, not hiding them. We also touch on psychological safety—how creating an environment where people feel safe to speak up is foundational for innovation and systemic learning.

Mark shares insights from running Deming’s famous Red Bead Experiment and why it still resonates today, illustrating how poor management practices persist despite decades of evidence against them. We also discuss corporate scandals like Wells Fargo’s account fraud scandal, where systemic pressures—not individual failings—led to widespread unethical behavior.

From his experiences in Japan studying Lean firsthand to the importance of small-scale experimentation in driving innovation, Mark offers a compelling argument for why organizations must rethink their approach to mistakes. Instead of punishing failures, companies should view them as opportunities to refine their systems and foster real innovation.

In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Reuven Cohen, someone who I believe is one of the most important voices in AI today.  

Reuven recounts his journey in technology, from being an early advocate of cloud computing to now working at the cutting edge of AI and reasoning models. He shares insights into how AI is shifting the nature of work, particularly in fields like software development, business operations, and decision-making. He describes AI as "cloud computing 2.0, but with intelligence," emphasizing its role in cognitive offloading—augmenting human capability rather than merely automating tasks.

A key theme of the discussion is AI’s impact on productivity and workforce structure. Reuven shares staggering personal metrics—writing nearly 10 million lines of code in a year, something that would take a traditional developer thousands of lifetimes. He argues that AI is not replacing jobs outright, but fundamentally changing who remains valuable in an organization. He suggests that companies must decide whether to empower their top 10% to become exponentially more productive or replace the bottom 90% with AI-driven automation.

The conversation also dives into reasoning models versus instruct models, discussing when to use each in business applications. Reuven explains neurosymbolic AI, a new frontier where AI models don't just process natural language but interact with the world using symbolic logic and mathematics. He believes this approach will be essential for future breakthroughs in AI comprehension and decision-making.

As the episode progresses, John and Reuven reflect on the geopolitical landscape of AI, noting that China has become a dominant force in AI development. They discuss DeepSeek, the Chinese-developed reasoning model, and how it has disrupted traditional players like OpenAI and Google.

To wrap up, Reuven shares his latest projects, including an AI-driven truth detection system, which sparked ethical debates about transparency, privacy, and misinformation. He envisions a future where AI is not just an assistant but an autonomous force that reshapes industries, economies, and even the nature of work itself.

In this episode, I talk with returning guest Joseph Enochs about the artificial intelligence (AI) world and its implications for businesses and innovation. A major highlight of the conversation is an analysis of DeepSeek, an open-source AI model developed by a Chinese company. Joseph explains how DeepSeek and similar models demonstrate that AI development is becoming increasingly accessible globally. With only a fraction of the computing resources used by giants like OpenAI and Meta, DeepSeek has replicated the performance of cutting-edge models like GPT-4. This, Joseph notes, is a clear example of how creativity and resourcefulness can overcome technological constraints, further accelerating the democratization of AI.

The conversation also dives into emergent behaviors, where AI models demonstrate the ability to reason about new and unseen data, similar to human problem-solving. Joseph discusses critical benchmarks like GPQA (Google-Proof Question Answering) and the ARC Prize, which measure these capabilities. He highlights how modern models use reinforcement learning to develop reasoning skills, making them capable of tackling complex tasks at an unprecedented level of sophistication.

We also touch on practical business considerations, such as how organizations can evaluate AI models for cost-efficiency and task-specific performance. Joseph advises leaders to use AI-driven frameworks to determine when to invest in high-cost, high-performance models like GPT-4 Omni versus smaller, fine-tuned models for less complex problems. He underscores that open-source innovations will continue to push costs down and improve accessibility for businesses of all sizes.

The discussion wraps up with a reflection on the importance of knowledge sharing, applied research, and collaborative learning to accelerate the adoption of AI in solving real-world problems.

In this episode, I continue my conversation with Laksh Raghavan, a cybersecurity leader and systems thinker, diving into profound insights on applying multidisciplinary approaches to organizational challenges. Picking up from Part 1, this discussion illuminates the principles of W. Edwards Deming and other thought leaders in fostering organizational reliability, productivity, and innovation.

The episode opens with a discussion on Herbert Simon's "satisficing" and its organizational implications. Laksh emphasizes how businesses like McDonald's excel by prioritizing reliability over perfection, ensuring consistent experiences across global markets. He connects this to Deming's principles of variation reduction, explaining how psychological perceptions of quality—rather than objective measures—often dictate success. This theme extends to companies like Apple, which masterfully align human psychology with technological precision to command premium loyalty and profits.

We also explore behavioral science's role in technology and consumer behavior, from Uber's elimination of uncertainty in ride-hailing to Google's laser focus on search quality. They highlight the importance of understanding human psychology when solving organizational problems, as demonstrated by the famous "elevator mirrors" anecdote from Manhattan skyscrapers. Laksh masterfully ties these insights to modern developer productivity, arguing that reducing psychological friction, rather than merely optimizing technical processes, leads to sustainable performance improvements.

The conversation crescendos with a deep dive into systems thinking, advocating for leadership frameworks that address interconnected "messes" rather than isolated problems. Laksh shares the vital role of education and storytelling in cultivating systemic thinking within organizations, drawing parallels between Deming’s teachings and modern challenges in cybersecurity and software delivery.

You can learn more  about the Cyb3rSyn community and join through the following links below:

https://www.cyb3rsyn.com/

https://www.cyb3rsyn.com/p/announcing-cyb3rsyn-labs

In this episode of The Profound Podcast, I welcome back cybersecurity expert and systems thinker Laksh Raghavan. Laksh explores how multidisciplinary thinking bridges the gap between theory and practice in solving complex problems.

The discussion begins with Laksh's professional journey, highlighting his early dissatisfaction with conventional consulting and his pivot toward systems thinking and complexity science. Inspired by figures like Kurt Lewin, Charlie Munger, and Russell Ackoff, Laksh outlines his approach to integrating insights from diverse disciplines to better address both technical and socio-technical challenges.

A central theme of the episode is multidisciplinary thinking, which Laksh describes as synthesizing insights from various fields—physics, psychology, and economics—to build a latticework of mental models. He compares this process to what Charlie Munger advocated for in investing, but applies it internally to organizational design and problem-solving.

We delve into foundational concepts like epistemic humility, the "blind men and the elephant" parable, and the challenges of communicating complex ideas to diverse audiences. Laksh critiques what he terms the "Silicon Valley syndrome," where reductive technical solutions often miss the human elements integral to sustainable success. Examples like Elon Musk's organizational strategies and the "doorman fallacy" underscore the need to see systems as adaptive and human-centered.

Laksh also highlights the importance of psychological insights in addressing organizational and cybersecurity challenges. He emphasizes education reform and the joy of learning as critical to fostering creativity and resilience in individuals and teams.

The conversation concludes with reflections on W. Edwards Deming's principles and their relevance to modern organizations, particularly in viewing systems holistically and embracing uncertainty. Laksh's current work with Cyb3rSyn  embodies this vision, aiming to create environments where multidisciplinary learning thrives.

You can learn more  about the Cyb3rSyn community and join through the following links below:

https://www.cyb3rsyn.com/

https://www.cyb3rsyn.com/p/announcing-cyb3rsyn-labs

In this second part of my conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows, we continue our deep dive into the profound concepts of W. Edwards Deming and their modern applications in leadership, systems thinking, and operational excellence. Dr. Bellows brings his wealth of experience and insight to tackle complex questions about embedding systems thinking within large organizations, balancing tools and strategies, and fostering meaningful collaboration.

We begin by examining the challenges of introducing Deming's principles in diverse organizational settings. Dr. Bellows shares his approach of starting small—providing a foundational vocabulary to diverse teams before scaling deeper understanding. He underscores the importance of translating concepts into actionable strategies that resonate within the unique contexts of organizations, using inspiring examples from industries like aerospace.

A significant theme in this episode is the interplay between analysis and synthesis in problem-solving. Dr. Bellows advocates for a shift from merely addressing isolated failures to improving system functions holistically—a perspective championed by Deming and Taguchi. We explore examples like defining the function of a weld or a sweater to demonstrate how function-focused improvement prevents trading one failure mode for another.

Dr. Bellows also reflects on the diminishing emphasis on human capital investment, such as the decline of leadership development facilities, and connects this to the broader need for fostering systems-level thinking in organizations. Together, we discuss how organizations can avoid reducing education to mere compliance training and instead inspire innovative thinking across all levels.

We conclude by revisiting key takeaways, including the critical role of operational definitions in achieving clarity, the importance of defining and measuring function, and the imperative to develop methods that inspire system-wide transformation.

In this episode, I engage with Dr. Bill Bellows in a deep dive into the application of W. Edwards Deming’s systems thinking in software development and DevOps. Dr. Bellows, a veteran in quality management and an expert in Deming’s principles, shares insights on variation, Taguchi loss functions, and the synthesis of parts in a system to highlight gaps in current industry metrics like DORA.

Key Topics:

1. Misconceptions About Managing Parts vs. Systems:
   • Dr. Bellows references Russell Ackoff’s assertion that managing individual parts optimally doesn’t guarantee an effective system. He relates this to the tendency in software and manufacturing to assess components in isolation rather than as part of a larger system.
2. The Role of Variation in Quality:
   • Building on Shewhart’s work, Dr. Bellows explains how statistical process control examines stability and variation within components. Taguchi’s insights are introduced to show how variation in individual parts impacts the whole system's functionality.
3. Applying Taguchi to Modern Metrics:
   • The conversation examines how DORA metrics, such as deployment frequency and mean time to recovery, serve as output measures but fail to address the underlying inputs driving these metrics. Dr. Bellows highlights the importance of understanding "failure" through operational definitions and its nuanced variations.
4. Systems Thinking in Feedback Loops:
   • Emphasizing tighter feedback loops, Dr. Bellows ties traditional Deming concepts to the promise of continuous improvement in DevOps. He advocates for a systemic view, where the interplay of individual variances contributes to collective outcomes.

Key Insights:

• Systems must be analyzed holistically to manage complexity and leverage opportunities effectively.
• Outputs like DORA metrics should inform adjustments to input characteristics rather than serve as the sole focus.
• Precision in defining failure and understanding its economic implications is critical to refining processes and delivering value.

In this short episode, I reconnect with Dr. Bill Bellows, a frequent guest and advocate for W. Edwards Deming's principles. The conversation focuses on reviving the In2:In Thinking Network, a nonprofit Dr. Bellows co-founded to improve how individuals and organizations work, learn, and think together. Dr. Bellows discusses the origins of the network and its 16-year legacy of bringing together diverse voices inspired by Deming, Russell Ackoff, and others to explore innovative ways of collaboration.

We also reveal exciting plans for a 2025 In2:In Thinking Network Conference in Santa Clarita, California. This event aims to merge communities from software development, systems thinking, and various industries to foster cross-pollination of ideas. The goal? An "oasis of sanity in a sea of madness," where passionate learners share experiences and challenge conventional approaches to problem-solving.

If you want to learn more or get on the mailing list, reach out to either of us.

In this second installment of my conversation with Dr. David Woods, we continue our exploration of resilience engineering and complexity science, focusing on practical applications and actionable strategies. Building on the foundational concepts from part one, Dr. Woods offers deeper insights into how organizations can thrive in unpredictable environments by embracing resilience as a core competency.

We dive into the nuts and bolts of designing systems that can adapt and recover, emphasizing the importance of fostering collaboration, continuous learning, and feedback loops. Dr. Woods connects these practices to W. Edwards Deming’s teachings, particularly the interplay between profound knowledge and operational flexibility. Our conversation also underscores the significance of learning from near misses and small failures, treating them as opportunities to strengthen systems rather than vulnerabilities to hide.

Key highlights include:

• The Adaptive Cycle: Dr. Woods introduces a powerful framework for understanding how systems evolve and adapt over time, offering lessons for IT, healthcare, and manufacturing.
• Learning from Disruption: Examples of organizations that turned crises into growth opportunities by leveraging resilience principles.
• Operationalizing Resilience: How leaders can embed resilience thinking into daily operations through deliberate design and cultural shifts, echoing Deming’s focus on systems thinking and constancy of purpose.

This episode serves as a practical guide for anyone seeking to bridge theoretical concepts with real-world applications. Dr. Woods leaves us with actionable takeaways on how to lead and thrive in an era of constant change, making this a must-listen for leaders and practitioners alike.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. David Woods, a leading expert in resilience engineering and complexity science, for the first of a two-part conversation. Together, we explore the interplay between resilience, complexity, and systems thinking, diving into how these principles intersect with W. Edwards Deming’s transformative ideas on quality and continual improvement.

Dr. Woods introduces the foundational concepts of resilience and highlights its critical importance in an era marked by rapid digital transformation. We discuss how organizations in IT, healthcare, and manufacturing can adapt to unforeseen challenges by fostering resilient systems capable of anticipating, absorbing, and recovering from disruptions. Connecting these insights to Deming’s framework, Dr. Woods emphasizes the need for leadership to shift focus from static efficiency to dynamic adaptability.

Key themes in this episode include:

• Resilience in Action: Real-world examples of how organizations have successfully implemented strategies to thrive under complexity.
• Complexity and Systems Thinking: The dangers of oversimplifying complex systems and how embracing uncertainty can drive innovation.
• The Role of Leadership: How leaders can cultivate an environment that values learning, experimentation, and Systemic Thinking, echoing Deming’s principles of profound knowledge.

Dr. Woods’ expertise provides a thought-provoking lens for understanding how organizations can prepare for the unexpected while staying true to the pursuit of quality and improvement. Part one lays a strong foundation for the continuation of our discussion in the next episode, where we’ll delve deeper into practical strategies and case studies.

In this episode, I invite Tracy Ragan, CEO of DeployHub, on the podcast for an in-depth discussion on the evolution of DevOps, the complexities of modern software systems, and the cultural challenges women face in technology. Tracy's rich history in software development, from working on mainframes in the late 1980s to spearheading DevOps advancements, provides a fascinating lens through which to examine the industry.

Key Topics Discussed:

1. The Historical Context of DevOps: Tracy recounts the industry's shift from mainframe to distributed systems and the lessons learned (and forgotten) along the way. She highlights the recurring mistakes in adopting "shiny new objects" without addressing foundational issues, such as dependency chaos and scripting overuse.
2. AI and Long-Tail Productivity: Tracy and John explore AI's transformative potential, emphasizing that its real impact lies in long-term gains rather than short-term ROI. Tracy draws parallels to past transitions, like the adoption of relational databases, arguing that AI's value will be fully realized only with improved system architectures.
3. The Persistent Challenge of Women in Tech: Tracy candidly discusses her experiences as a woman in a male-dominated industry, noting a regression in gender diversity, particularly post-COVID. She highlights systemic issues, including exclusion from key networking opportunities and persistent biases, advocating for cultural shifts to empower women in tech.
4. DeployHub’s Role in Tackling DevOps Complexity: Tracy introduces DeployHub's innovative approach to managing software supply chains and SBOMs (Software Bill of Materials). By mapping dependencies and automating vulnerability remediation, DeployHub aims to reduce the time and complexity of patch management, addressing critical gaps in modern software pipelines.

In this episode of The Profound Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, a researcher and expert in systems thinking, AI, and digital transformation. We explore Eric Lawson’s book The Myth of AI, tackling the contentious debate around artificial general intelligence (AGI). Dr. Bloom offers insights from his dissertation and divides the ongoing discourse on AI into two camps: dogmatists and pragmatists. Dogmatists believe AGI is inevitable, while pragmatists focus on the practical impacts of current AI technology, such as large language models (LLMs), and how these will reshape businesses, education, and society.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Bloom explains his framework for thinking about AI, touching on proactionary versus precautionary approaches to its development and regulation. He also draws connections between these ideas and W. Edwards Deming’s principles, especially around abductive reasoning—a concept that links back to Dr. Bloom’s past discussions about AI’s potential in problem-solving.

The conversation takes a critical view of AGI's feasibility, with Dr. Bloom emphasizing the current challenges AI faces in replicating abductive reasoning, which involves making intelligent guesses—a capability he argues machines have yet to achieve. We also dive into examples from fields like DevOps, healthcare, and city planning, discussing where AI has shown great promise and where it still falls short.

Key takeaways from the episode include the importance of addressing present AI technologies and their immediate impacts on work and society, as well as the ongoing need for human oversight and critique when using AI systems.

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Erik J. Larson, author of The Myth of Artificial Intelligence, about the speculative nature and real limitations of AI, particularly in relation to achieving Artificial General Intelligence (AGI). Larson delves into the philosophical and scientific misunderstandings surrounding AI, challenging the dominant narrative that AGI is just around the corner. Drawing from his expertise and experience in the field, Larson explains why much of the AI hype lacks empirical foundation. He emphasizes the limits of current AI models, particularly their reliance on inductive reasoning, which, though powerful, is insufficient for achieving human-like intelligence.

Larson discusses how the field of AI has historically blended speculative futurism with genuine technological advancements, often fueled by financial incentives rather than scientific rigor. He highlights how this approach has led to misconceptions about AI’s capabilities, especially in the context of AGI. Drawing connections to philosophical theories of inference, Larson introduces deductive, inductive, and abductive reasoning, explaining how current AI systems fall short in their over-reliance on inductive methods. The conversation touches on the challenges of abduction (the "broken" form of reasoning humans often use) and the difficulty of replicating this in AI systems.

Throughout the discussion, we explore the social and ethical implications of AI, including concerns about data limitations, the dangers of synthetic data, and the looming “data wall” that could hinder future AI progress. We also touch on broader societal impacts, such as how AI’s potential misuse and over-reliance might affect innovation and human intelligence.

In this episode of The Profound Podcast, I have an enlightening conversation with Dr. Jabe Bloom, a prominent voice in the fields of DevOps and digital transformation. The discussion revolves around the philosophical underpinnings of scientific reasoning and its application to complex systems, particularly through the lens of Charles Sanders Peirce's work on abductive reasoning.

Jabe Bloom begins by exploring Peirce’s contributions to philosophy, particularly how Peirce's concept of abductive reasoning offers a framework for making educated guesses in situations where data is incomplete or variables are unknown. This idea becomes especially pertinent when Bloom contrasts the scientific method typically used in complicated domains, like Lean manufacturing, with the unpredictability of complex systems, where multiple hypotheses might be equally valid.

The conversation further delves into how these ideas connect to digital transformation, especially in organizations navigating the complexities of modern IT and business environments. Bloom highlights the importance of fostering environments where experimentation and educated guessing are encouraged, as this aligns with Peirce's pragmatic approach, which values the usefulness of an idea over its absolute truth.

To wrap up, we also discuss the broader implications of Peirce’s work on modern AI and socio-technical systems, emphasizing the need for a deeper understanding of how these systems operate and how to integrate artificial intelligence into complex human processes.

In this episode of The Profound Podcast,  I speak with Andrew Clay Shafer, a pivotal figure in the DevOps community and a key influencer in the industry. They delve into the evolution of DevOps, its current state, and its implications for the future, particularly in the context of digital transformation.

The conversation begins with a reflection on the early days of DevOps and Agile, highlighting key milestones and the ongoing relevance of foundational principles, such as those proposed by W. Edwards Deming. Shafer emphasizes the timeless nature of these principles and their application beyond any buzzword lifecycle. The dialogue then transitions to the challenges and opportunities within the industry, addressing the impact of macroeconomic forces, the rise of AI, and the buzz around platform engineering.

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the importance of organizational learning and the necessity for companies to understand and adapt their processes to achieve true transformation. Shafer shares his insights on the common pitfalls organizations face when adopting new methodologies, stressing the need for contextual understanding and incremental improvement rather than superficial adoption of new terms or tools.

The episode also touches on the concept of platform engineering as a continuation of the DevOps philosophy, rather than a separate or novel idea. Then to wrap up, we discuss the marketing dynamics that drive the emergence of new buzzwords and the critical need for genuine integration and alignment within organizations to realize the benefits of these practices.

You can find Andrew Clay Shafer's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewclayshafer/

In this episode, I speak with Joseph Enochs, Managing Director of AI/ML and Emerging Technologies at Enterprise Vision Technologies. Known for his extensive background in DevOps and digital transformation, Joseph shares his remarkable journey transitioning into the AI domain.

Joseph begins by recounting how his interest in AI was sparked, notably influenced by the foundational concepts of W. Edwards Deming and the subsequent developments in DevOps. He details the pivotal moments that led him to pursue a master's degree in AI, highlighting the importance of continuous learning and the foresight needed to anticipate technological trends.

The discussion covers the evolution and integration of AI within large enterprises, emphasizing the challenges and strategies for incorporating AI into existing systems. Joseph explains the significance of vector databases, context windows, and the roles of orchestrators and agents in enhancing AI capabilities. He also delves into the practical applications of AI in business, such as improving call center efficiency and automating complex tasks.

In the final segment, Joseph offers practical advice on how to start learning about AI, emphasizing the importance of experimentation and validation of assumptions. The episode concludes with a reflection on the profound impact AI is set to have on the future of technology and business.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Barbara Lawton, a distinguished statistician and expert in experimental design. Dr. Lawton shares her journey from studying biology and ecology to diving deep into statistics, eventually finding herself at the Rocky Flats nuclear weapons facility. It was here she experienced a pivotal moment that led her to W. Edwards Deming's teachings.

Dr. Lawton recounts how a significant project at Rocky Flats fell apart due to budget cuts, illustrating Deming's principle that quality is determined in the boardroom. This realization propelled her to attend a seminar by Deming, which profoundly changed her perspective on quality and management. She describes her experience of traveling with Deming, learning from his insights, and understanding the importance of continuous learning and adaptation.

The conversation delves into Deming's System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK), highlighting its relevance in today's fast-evolving world. Dr. Lawton emphasizes the need for an appreciation of systems, understanding of variation, psychology, and theory of knowledge, and expands on these concepts by integrating ideas from physics and ecology. She discusses the role of entropy, thermodynamics, and the dynamic nature of systems, explaining how these principles apply to modern organizations and leadership.

Dr. Lawton also touches on the importance of emotional intelligence, mindfulness, and effective communication in leadership. She advocates for creating environments that foster continuous learning and adaptability, essential for navigating the complexities of today's digital landscape.

You can find Dr. Barbara Lawton's LinkedIn Below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lawton-8b920b6/

Show Notes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ2U7F0RJd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWiH5S55iDg&t=25m28s

In this insightful episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Angela Montgomery, co-founder of Intelligent Management and author of the upcoming book, The Human Constraint. Angela shares her unique journey from a background in arts to collaborating with physicists. The conversation delves into the artificial barriers within organizations, the importance of systemic thinking, and how integrating Deming's System of Profound Knowledge with the Theory of Constraints can drive meaningful change.

Angela highlights the critical differences between bottlenecks and constraints, emphasizing the strategic value of identifying and managing constraints to enhance organizational flow. She also discusses the challenges of adopting a systemic approach in traditional hierarchical structures and the role of mental models in limiting or advancing organizational potential.

Through practical examples and narrative, Angela illustrates the transformative power of the Decalogue Method, which combines scientific rigor with literary storytelling. She also touches on her collaboration with renowned playwright Donald Freed to ensure the book's narrative is engaging and accessible.

This episode is a must-listen for business leaders and practitioners interested in continuous improvement, conflict resolution, and embedding innovation into daily practice. Angela's insights offer a fresh perspective on leveraging systemic thinking to achieve sustainable organizational success.

In this episode, I had a conversation with Mike Beck. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality and their application in the automotive and healthcare sectors. Mike, with his vast experience at General Motors and Toyota, shares compelling stories and insights on how Deming's principles transformed his approach to engineering and management.

Mike Beck's journey began as a mechanical engineer at General Motors in 1979, a time when the company held a dominant market share. His career took a significant turn after attending Deming’s seminar in 1984, which profoundly influenced his perspective on quality and management. This episode captures Mike's evolution from a reliability and test engineer to a leader in statistical methods and quality improvement at GM.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Early Career and Deming’s Influence:
   • Mike details his early career at General Motors, the transition of GM from the market leader, and his first exposure to Deming’s teachings which significantly shifted his approach towards statistical methods and leadership​​.
2. Implementing Statistical Methods:
   • He discusses his application of statistical methods in engine development, particularly using Taguchi methods and design of experiments (DOE) to tackle the issue of bore distortion in the Quad 4 engine​​.
3. Deming’s Consultancy at GM:
   • Mike shares insights from GM's decision to hire Deming as a consultant, and how this influenced the creation of the Powertrain Statistical Network and a master’s program in statistics, fostering a culture of continuous improvement and statistical thinking within the company​​.
4. Transition to Toyota:
   • His move to Toyota offered a unique comparison between American and Japanese approaches to quality. Mike highlights Toyota’s meticulous production engineering processes, incremental changes, and the profound cultural differences that underpin their success in quality management​​.
5. Cultural and Management Lessons:
   • Mike elaborates on the concept of "catchball" in Hoshin Kanri, emphasizing the importance of alignment and communication in achieving organizational objectives. He also contrasts the Western and Eastern views on time and efficiency, shedding light on how Toyota’s approach to planning and reflection contributes to their sustained excellence​​.

Show Notes:

Mike's Email: mikebeck001@gmail.com

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Rob Park. Rob shares his journey from early involvement in extreme programming (XP) to his current fascination with W. Edwards Deming's principles and their application in modern software development.

Rob's career path offers a rich tapestry of experiences, from using case tools and adopting scrum practices before they were widely recognized, to working with Kanban and continuous integration/continuous delivery (CI/CD) processes. He reminisces about his introduction to Deming's work through the influence of notable figures in the agile community.

A significant portion of the discussion delves into the integration of Deming's theories into software practices. Rob talks about the impact of statistical process control (SPC) and control charts on his work, emphasizing the importance of understanding variation and employing data-driven decision-making. He highlights the utility of Dr. Donald Wheeler's teachings on process behavior charts and the critical difference between enumerative and analytical statistics.

The episode wraps up with Rob reflecting on the broader implications of Deming's work, advocating for its relevance in addressing contemporary challenges in software development. He shares his experiences of applying Deming's theories in real-world scenarios, illustrating how these timeless concepts continue to drive quality and efficiency in the digital age.

You can find Rob Park's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robpark-4ls/

In this episode, I have a conversation with Beth Blankenship, a seasoned expert in quality management and a fervent disciple of W. Edwards Deming. We dive deep into Deming's profound principles and their continued relevance in today's digital transformation landscape.

Beth begins by sharing her journey from an IT background to becoming a passionate advocate for Deming's teachings. Her story includes a moment at a Deming seminar, which sparked her lifelong dedication to quality improvement and management systems. Beth reflects on her experiences working in various sectors, emphasizing the importance of teaching and genuine engagement in quality initiatives.

A significant part of our discussion revolves around Deming's influence on Japanese industry post-WWII and how his principles of systems thinking, variation, and profound knowledge reshaped their manufacturing processes. Beth provides insights into her extensive research, including the historical context of Deming's ideas and their foundational roots in the work of Walter Shewhart and other early 20th-century scientists.

Beth also critiques modern methodologies like Six Sigma, highlighting how they often miss the holistic, systems-oriented approach Deming championed. She underscores the necessity of focusing on customer needs and continuous innovation, rather than merely eliminating defects.

Our conversation concludes with Beth's reflections on the enduring impact of Deming's work and her current efforts to disseminate his teachings through papers, podcasts, and an upcoming YouTube channel. She passionately advocates for the preservation and application of Deming's principles, aiming to educate a new generation of quality management professionals.

You can find Beth Blankenship's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/beth-blankenship-deming-scholar-5351432/

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, an expert in design studies and organizational theory. Recently completing his PhD at Carnegie Mellon, Dr. Bloom brings a fresh perspective on the intersection of temporality, complexity, and design, particularly in the context of digital transformation in IT and other industries.

We dive into the nuances of temporality versus time, exploring how these concepts influence design decisions. Dr. Bloom elaborates on how temporality is a qualitative measure of change and its impact on human experience and project planning. This foundational concept sets the stage for understanding "timeful" design, which embraces the dynamic nature of contexts and proposes continual re-evaluation and adaptation.

Dr. Bloom challenges the traditional notion of design as a finite process, suggesting instead that it is an ongoing interaction with the environment. This perspective aligns with DevOps principles, where software development and operations are seen as continuous and evolving processes. He highlights the importance of context and proposition in design, where solutions must be constantly re-assessed to remain relevant as contexts change.

One of the key takeaways from this episode is the idea of "bounded rationality". Dr. Bloom explains how this concept, which acknowledges the limitations of human decision-making capabilities, applies to modern digital systems. He also delves into the concept of "recombining," which involves ongoing negotiation and collaboration across organizational boundaries to address complex problems that cannot be solved by isolated teams.

Dr. Bloom's insights into the temporal nature of objects and systems offer a profound shift in how we perceive design and operational challenges. By viewing software and other technological artifacts as temporal objects, he advocates for a more fluid and adaptive approach to design and implementation, one that continually responds to changing contexts and user needs.

You can Dr. Jabe Bloom on LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jabebloom/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I'm joined by John Dues, Chief Learning Officer at United Schools Network in Ohio and an innovative educator who has ingeniously applied W. Edwards Deming's theories to the educational sector. John shares his journey of discovery into Deming's methodologies and how these have profoundly influenced his approach to improving educational systems.

Our discussion delves into John's initial skepticism and eventual embrace of Deming's System of Profound Knowledge, which consists of understanding systems, variation, psychology, and knowledge theory. John explains his experiences in applying these principles within his school network, particularly how they've been used to enhance operational efficiency and educational outcomes amidst the challenges posed by remote learning during the pandemic.

The conversation also touches on John's approach to leadership and learning, emphasizing the necessity of continuous improvement and systems thinking in educational administration. He highlights the importance of aligning educational strategies with Deming’s philosophies to foster environments that nurture rather than stifle, promoting an organizational culture where insights into systemic improvements are encouraged and valued.

John's innovative application of Deming's theories offers a template for transformative leadership in education, demonstrating the relevance of these age-old concepts in addressing modern challenges within the sector.

You can find John Dues' LinkedIn Below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnadues/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ariane David, PhD, an insightful thinker and academic who delves into the principles of non-positional thinking and its profound impact on personal and organizational learning. We explore how W. Edwards Deming's theories on quality and continuous improvement intersect with modern challenges in digital transformation, particularly within IT, healthcare, and manufacturing sectors.

Dr. David's introduces the four principles of non-positional thinking, beginning with the 'uncertainty principle,' which emphasizes intellectual humility and the acceptance that our perceptions and conclusions might be flawed. This acknowledgment opens the door to 'curiosity,' the second principle, fostering a desire to explore and understand rather than to confirm biases. The discussion progresses to the 'principle of discernment,' where information is analyzed critically to separate useful insights from noise. Lastly, Ariane discusses 'courage,' which is essential for challenging our own assumptions and committing to a path of genuine understanding and improvement .

Throughout the conversation, Dr. David highlights the dangers of 'adaptive learning' in organizations—learning driven by fear and survival instincts—which often prevents genuine insight and improvement. She contrasts this with 'generative learning,' which encourages a blame-free environment where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth and learning, thereby fostering a culture that supports continuous improvement and aligns closely with Deming's philosophy.


You can find Dr. Ariane David's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/arianedavid/

In the second episode of my two-part discussion with Bill Bellows, we explore the nuanced realms of quality management, variation, and integration, drawing from the rich legacy of W. Edwards Deming and Genichi Taguchi, and their profound impact on industries ranging from automotive to aerospace.

Bill Bellows shares enlightening perspectives on the historical collaboration between Ford and Mazda, illuminating the stark differences in their approaches to quality and production. He discusses the importance of minding the gap, not just in terms of parts but in the broader context of integration and systems thinking. This episode delves into the philosophical underpinnings of quality management, touching upon the concepts of red pen and blue pen companies, and the significance of aiming for systemic improvements rather than mere compliance with specifications.

The conversation extends beyond the specifics of automotive engineering, drawing parallels with software development, healthcare systems, and manufacturing processes. Bellows emphasizes the critical role of managing variation not just at the part level but as an integral part of a coherent system. This approach, he argues, is key to achieving superior quality, functionality, and customer satisfaction.

You can find Bill Bellows LinkedIn here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In the first part of a two-part series with Bill Bellows, we delve deep into the essence of system thinking and its pivotal role in shaping organizations. Bellows leads us on a journey exploring the nuanced differences between 'Red Pen' and 'Blue Pen' organizations, and beyond, into the realms of 'Me' versus 'We' and the collective impact of every straw on the camel's back.

Bellows opens the discussion with his famous 'Red Pen Blue Pen' exercise, a metaphorical exploration that distinguishes two types of organizations based on quality and system thinking. He illustrates how small details, like the ease of cap removal on pens, can symbolize the deeper operational philosophies and outcomes of organizations. This exercise not only serves as a tool for introspection but also highlights the broader implications of systemic thinking in operational excellence.

Expanding further, Bellows introduces the concepts of 'Me' versus 'We' and the allegory of the last straw, pushing us to contemplate the collective responsibility versus individual blame within organizational contexts. Through these discussions, he underscores the importance of a systemic perspective that fosters collaboration, continuous improvement, and a shared understanding of goals and challenges.

You can find Bill Bellows on LinkedIn here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I had the pleasure of engaging with Dave Nave, a multifaceted expert with a rich background in engineering, quality improvement, and business management consulting. Through his work and studies, Nave has delved deep into W. Edwards Deming's philosophies, applying these principles across various sectors with notable emphasis on manufacturing.

Our conversation explored Nave's initial skepticism towards quality improvement methodologies and his transformative encounter with Deming's teachings. Nave vividly described his early career experiences, where he challenged the concepts of process variability and predictability, only to find empirical evidence that humbled his perspective. This journey led him to embrace Deming's methodologies, seeking further education and eventually contributing to quality improvement initiatives in the defense industry and beyond.

Nave's experiences with the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham University stood out as a pivotal moment in his career. Immersed in Deming's teachings, he gained insights from esteemed professors and applied these lessons to real-world challenges. His anecdotes about the practical applications of Deming's principles, especially in the context of manufacturing assembly lines and quality control, were particularly enlightening.

The conversation also touched upon the challenges and nuances of implementing quality improvement methodologies within organizations. Nave shared stories from his consulting work, highlighting the importance of systemic thinking and the pitfalls of siloed approaches to process improvement.

Dave Nave's LinkedIn can be found below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenave/

In this episode of Profound,  I talk with Dr. Khai Minh Pham, whose unique approach to artificial intelligence challenges conventional paradigms and opens new frontiers in AI research and application. Dr. Pham, with his extensive background in both medicine and artificial intelligence, shares his journey towards creating a distinctive AI framework that prioritizes knowledge over data, steering clear of the traditional data-centric methodologies that dominate the field.

Dr. Pham recounts his early realization of the limitations inherent in human cognitive processes and how this propelled him to explore AI as a means to augment human memory and decision-making capabilities. 

Central to this episode is Dr. Pham's critique of the prevailing AI models that rely heavily on data processing and pattern recognition. He introduces his concept of "macro connectionist AI," a system that mimics human reasoning more closely by forming high-level knowledge representations rather than merely processing data inputs. This approach, according to Dr. Pham, not only enhances AI's problem-solving capabilities but also significantly reduces the computational resources required, challenging the current industry trend towards increasingly complex and energy-intensive AI systems.

you can find Dr. Pham's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/khai-minh-pham/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I engage in an insightful conversation with Richard Steele, founder and president of Peeker Services. We explore his journey from rebuilding locomotives to embracing W. Edwards Deming's principles, leading to a radical change in his company's management practices, particularly around performance appraisals and bonus systems. Steele shares transformative moments, like presenting his new pay program to the Detroit Deming study group, including Dr. Deming himself, and the eventual transition of his company into an employee-owned structure. The dialogue delves into the practical applications of Deming's theories in the workplace, the power of collective problem-solving, and the importance of fostering a culture of learning and adaptation. Finally, we take a look at some of Dick's critiques of Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge.

Steele's narrative demonstrates a successful integration of system thinking and the profound impact of shifting from traditional merit pay to a more inclusive and equitable model, redefining quality and performance metrics within his organization.

Richard's LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-steele-6586477/

 In part two of their discussion, John Willis engages in a deep dive with Bill Bellows on the multifaceted world of safety, quality, and systems thinking. Inspired by the pioneering work of Sydney Decker, Dr. Woods, and Erik Hollnagel, they explore the nuanced perspectives on safety and quality that transcend conventional understanding.

John and Bill navigate the intricate connections between thoroughness, efficiency, and effectiveness, drawing parallels to the foundational principles of Deming and Ackoff. They dissect the Efficiency-Thoroughness Trade-Off (ETTO) principle introduced by Hollnagel, pondering its implications in the context of operational safety and quality management.

The conversation further delves into Russ Ackoff’s insights on systems thinking, the DIKW (Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom) model, and the profound impact of understanding complex systems on improving organizational outcomes. Bill shares anecdotes from his experiences, illustrating the practical application of these concepts in real-world settings, including his work at Rocketdyne and with the Deming community.

Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

Show Notes:
1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/

2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf

3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 

3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 

4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html

5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/0956537995

6) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/ 

In this episode, I sit down once again with Bill Bellows to explore the interconnected nature of quality thinking. Our conversation ventures beyond traditional boundaries, drawing on Bill's unique insights into systemic thinking and its implications for organizational excellence.

We delve into the philosophy of interconnectedness, illustrating how quality extends far beyond the superficial, embedding itself into every facet of production and service. Bill shares enlightening perspectives on the importance of viewing organizations as whole systems, where every element is interrelated and changes in one part can ripple through others.

Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/


Show Notes:
1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/

2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf

3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 

3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 

4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html

5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/0956537995

6) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/ 

I have a great discussion between Derek Lewis and John Willis, focusing on the historical and philosophical underpinnings of quality control and those who were paramount to the movement including Walter Shewhart, W. Edwards Deming, and Joseph M. Juran. The dialogue includes anecdotes, critiques, and appreciations of Shewhart and Deming's work, including a dramatic rendition of a critique by Juran. 

Additionally, we touch on the dynamics of recognition and credit within the field, highlighting the broader system thinking introduced by Deming to Japanese industries and contrasting perspectives on their contributions to quality control.

I have an enlightening conversation with Adam Hawkins in this episode. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality. 

Our dialogue explores how this expansive framing of quality requires connecting producers and consumers in a broader system. We relate these concepts to service level objectives (SLOs) and their role in quantifying acceptable loss balanced against keeping systems valuable. This leads us to the profound realization that quality is contextual, varying across different systems and business needs.

Among other topics, we touch on the intricacies of variation, Deming's red bead experiment, the challenges of measurement and pragmatism, bringing quality thinking into software, and the difficulty of conveying Deming's multifaceted ideas to novices. Our exchange centers on constructing shared mental models to apply Deming's deep knowledge in today's digital landscape.

Adam’s LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hi-adam-hawkins/

Software Delivery in Small Batches Podcast:
https://smallbatches.fm/people/adam-hawkins

Precision, Accuracy, and Two Quality Questions: Unpacking a conversation between John Willis and Bill Bellows on Taguchi's approach to quality
https://softwarekaizen.substack.com/p/c83a7c05-d5b0-4cb3-93db-0e359108e3bb

In this second part of a two-part series, I speak with Bill Bellows about W. Edwards Deming's influence on Japanese manufacturing, specifically Toyota. We discuss Deming's relationship with Genichi Taguchi and how their quality philosophies intersect and complement each other. We explore Deming and Taguchi's differing notions of quality - meeting specifications versus minimizing loss to society. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this first part of a two-part series, I chat with Bill Bellows in this episode. Bill gave us a little history of his introduction to Genichi Taguchi's methods and quality concepts while working as an engineer in the jet engine industry. We explore key ideas around variability reduction, precision vs accuracy, process capability, and Taguchi's loss function. Our conversation looks at the difference between traditional quality approaches focused on specifications and Taguchi's view of quality based on quantifying loss and variation. We riff on analogies using a dartboard and Deming's red bead experiment to clarify Taguchi's perspectives on "loss" and variation even within specification limits. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/