In this second part of my conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows, we continue our deep dive into the profound concepts of W. Edwards Deming and their modern applications in leadership, systems thinking, and operational excellence. Dr. Bellows brings his wealth of experience and insight to tackle complex questions about embedding systems thinking within large organizations, balancing tools and strategies, and fostering meaningful collaboration.

We begin by examining the challenges of introducing Deming's principles in diverse organizational settings. Dr. Bellows shares his approach of starting small—providing a foundational vocabulary to diverse teams before scaling deeper understanding. He underscores the importance of translating concepts into actionable strategies that resonate within the unique contexts of organizations, using inspiring examples from industries like aerospace.

A significant theme in this episode is the interplay between analysis and synthesis in problem-solving. Dr. Bellows advocates for a shift from merely addressing isolated failures to improving system functions holistically—a perspective championed by Deming and Taguchi. We explore examples like defining the function of a weld or a sweater to demonstrate how function-focused improvement prevents trading one failure mode for another.

Dr. Bellows also reflects on the diminishing emphasis on human capital investment, such as the decline of leadership development facilities, and connects this to the broader need for fostering systems-level thinking in organizations. Together, we discuss how organizations can avoid reducing education to mere compliance training and instead inspire innovative thinking across all levels.

We conclude by revisiting key takeaways, including the critical role of operational definitions in achieving clarity, the importance of defining and measuring function, and the imperative to develop methods that inspire system-wide transformation.

In this episode, I engage with Dr. Bill Bellows in a deep dive into the application of W. Edwards Deming’s systems thinking in software development and DevOps. Dr. Bellows, a veteran in quality management and an expert in Deming’s principles, shares insights on variation, Taguchi loss functions, and the synthesis of parts in a system to highlight gaps in current industry metrics like DORA.

Key Topics:

1. Misconceptions About Managing Parts vs. Systems:
   • Dr. Bellows references Russell Ackoff’s assertion that managing individual parts optimally doesn’t guarantee an effective system. He relates this to the tendency in software and manufacturing to assess components in isolation rather than as part of a larger system.
2. The Role of Variation in Quality:
   • Building on Shewhart’s work, Dr. Bellows explains how statistical process control examines stability and variation within components. Taguchi’s insights are introduced to show how variation in individual parts impacts the whole system's functionality.
3. Applying Taguchi to Modern Metrics:
   • The conversation examines how DORA metrics, such as deployment frequency and mean time to recovery, serve as output measures but fail to address the underlying inputs driving these metrics. Dr. Bellows highlights the importance of understanding "failure" through operational definitions and its nuanced variations.
4. Systems Thinking in Feedback Loops:
   • Emphasizing tighter feedback loops, Dr. Bellows ties traditional Deming concepts to the promise of continuous improvement in DevOps. He advocates for a systemic view, where the interplay of individual variances contributes to collective outcomes.

Key Insights:

• Systems must be analyzed holistically to manage complexity and leverage opportunities effectively.
• Outputs like DORA metrics should inform adjustments to input characteristics rather than serve as the sole focus.
• Precision in defining failure and understanding its economic implications is critical to refining processes and delivering value.

In this episode, I speak with Joseph Enochs, Managing Director of AI/ML and Emerging Technologies at Enterprise Vision Technologies. Known for his extensive background in DevOps and digital transformation, Joseph shares his remarkable journey transitioning into the AI domain.

Joseph begins by recounting how his interest in AI was sparked, notably influenced by the foundational concepts of W. Edwards Deming and the subsequent developments in DevOps. He details the pivotal moments that led him to pursue a master's degree in AI, highlighting the importance of continuous learning and the foresight needed to anticipate technological trends.

The discussion covers the evolution and integration of AI within large enterprises, emphasizing the challenges and strategies for incorporating AI into existing systems. Joseph explains the significance of vector databases, context windows, and the roles of orchestrators and agents in enhancing AI capabilities. He also delves into the practical applications of AI in business, such as improving call center efficiency and automating complex tasks.

In the final segment, Joseph offers practical advice on how to start learning about AI, emphasizing the importance of experimentation and validation of assumptions. The episode concludes with a reflection on the profound impact AI is set to have on the future of technology and business.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Barbara Lawton, a distinguished statistician and expert in experimental design. Dr. Lawton shares her journey from studying biology and ecology to diving deep into statistics, eventually finding herself at the Rocky Flats nuclear weapons facility. It was here she experienced a pivotal moment that led her to W. Edwards Deming's teachings.

Dr. Lawton recounts how a significant project at Rocky Flats fell apart due to budget cuts, illustrating Deming's principle that quality is determined in the boardroom. This realization propelled her to attend a seminar by Deming, which profoundly changed her perspective on quality and management. She describes her experience of traveling with Deming, learning from his insights, and understanding the importance of continuous learning and adaptation.

The conversation delves into Deming's System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK), highlighting its relevance in today's fast-evolving world. Dr. Lawton emphasizes the need for an appreciation of systems, understanding of variation, psychology, and theory of knowledge, and expands on these concepts by integrating ideas from physics and ecology. She discusses the role of entropy, thermodynamics, and the dynamic nature of systems, explaining how these principles apply to modern organizations and leadership.

Dr. Lawton also touches on the importance of emotional intelligence, mindfulness, and effective communication in leadership. She advocates for creating environments that foster continuous learning and adaptability, essential for navigating the complexities of today's digital landscape.

You can find Dr. Barbara Lawton's LinkedIn Below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lawton-8b920b6/

Show Notes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ2U7F0RJd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWiH5S55iDg&t=25m28s

In this insightful episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Angela Montgomery, co-founder of Intelligent Management and author of the upcoming book, The Human Constraint. Angela shares her unique journey from a background in arts to collaborating with physicists. The conversation delves into the artificial barriers within organizations, the importance of systemic thinking, and how integrating Deming's System of Profound Knowledge with the Theory of Constraints can drive meaningful change.

Angela highlights the critical differences between bottlenecks and constraints, emphasizing the strategic value of identifying and managing constraints to enhance organizational flow. She also discusses the challenges of adopting a systemic approach in traditional hierarchical structures and the role of mental models in limiting or advancing organizational potential.

Through practical examples and narrative, Angela illustrates the transformative power of the Decalogue Method, which combines scientific rigor with literary storytelling. She also touches on her collaboration with renowned playwright Donald Freed to ensure the book's narrative is engaging and accessible.

This episode is a must-listen for business leaders and practitioners interested in continuous improvement, conflict resolution, and embedding innovation into daily practice. Angela's insights offer a fresh perspective on leveraging systemic thinking to achieve sustainable organizational success.

In this episode, I had a conversation with Mike Beck. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality and their application in the automotive and healthcare sectors. Mike, with his vast experience at General Motors and Toyota, shares compelling stories and insights on how Deming's principles transformed his approach to engineering and management.

Mike Beck's journey began as a mechanical engineer at General Motors in 1979, a time when the company held a dominant market share. His career took a significant turn after attending Deming’s seminar in 1984, which profoundly influenced his perspective on quality and management. This episode captures Mike's evolution from a reliability and test engineer to a leader in statistical methods and quality improvement at GM.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Early Career and Deming’s Influence:
   • Mike details his early career at General Motors, the transition of GM from the market leader, and his first exposure to Deming’s teachings which significantly shifted his approach towards statistical methods and leadership​​.
2. Implementing Statistical Methods:
   • He discusses his application of statistical methods in engine development, particularly using Taguchi methods and design of experiments (DOE) to tackle the issue of bore distortion in the Quad 4 engine​​.
3. Deming’s Consultancy at GM:
   • Mike shares insights from GM's decision to hire Deming as a consultant, and how this influenced the creation of the Powertrain Statistical Network and a master’s program in statistics, fostering a culture of continuous improvement and statistical thinking within the company​​.
4. Transition to Toyota:
   • His move to Toyota offered a unique comparison between American and Japanese approaches to quality. Mike highlights Toyota’s meticulous production engineering processes, incremental changes, and the profound cultural differences that underpin their success in quality management​​.
5. Cultural and Management Lessons:
   • Mike elaborates on the concept of "catchball" in Hoshin Kanri, emphasizing the importance of alignment and communication in achieving organizational objectives. He also contrasts the Western and Eastern views on time and efficiency, shedding light on how Toyota’s approach to planning and reflection contributes to their sustained excellence​​.

Show Notes:

Mike's Email: mikebeck001@gmail.com

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Rob Park. Rob shares his journey from early involvement in extreme programming (XP) to his current fascination with W. Edwards Deming's principles and their application in modern software development.

Rob's career path offers a rich tapestry of experiences, from using case tools and adopting scrum practices before they were widely recognized, to working with Kanban and continuous integration/continuous delivery (CI/CD) processes. He reminisces about his introduction to Deming's work through the influence of notable figures in the agile community.

A significant portion of the discussion delves into the integration of Deming's theories into software practices. Rob talks about the impact of statistical process control (SPC) and control charts on his work, emphasizing the importance of understanding variation and employing data-driven decision-making. He highlights the utility of Dr. Donald Wheeler's teachings on process behavior charts and the critical difference between enumerative and analytical statistics.

The episode wraps up with Rob reflecting on the broader implications of Deming's work, advocating for its relevance in addressing contemporary challenges in software development. He shares his experiences of applying Deming's theories in real-world scenarios, illustrating how these timeless concepts continue to drive quality and efficiency in the digital age.

You can find Rob Park's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robpark-4ls/

In this episode, I have a conversation with Beth Blankenship, a seasoned expert in quality management and a fervent disciple of W. Edwards Deming. We dive deep into Deming's profound principles and their continued relevance in today's digital transformation landscape.

Beth begins by sharing her journey from an IT background to becoming a passionate advocate for Deming's teachings. Her story includes a moment at a Deming seminar, which sparked her lifelong dedication to quality improvement and management systems. Beth reflects on her experiences working in various sectors, emphasizing the importance of teaching and genuine engagement in quality initiatives.

A significant part of our discussion revolves around Deming's influence on Japanese industry post-WWII and how his principles of systems thinking, variation, and profound knowledge reshaped their manufacturing processes. Beth provides insights into her extensive research, including the historical context of Deming's ideas and their foundational roots in the work of Walter Shewhart and other early 20th-century scientists.

Beth also critiques modern methodologies like Six Sigma, highlighting how they often miss the holistic, systems-oriented approach Deming championed. She underscores the necessity of focusing on customer needs and continuous innovation, rather than merely eliminating defects.

Our conversation concludes with Beth's reflections on the enduring impact of Deming's work and her current efforts to disseminate his teachings through papers, podcasts, and an upcoming YouTube channel. She passionately advocates for the preservation and application of Deming's principles, aiming to educate a new generation of quality management professionals.

You can find Beth Blankenship's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/beth-blankenship-deming-scholar-5351432/

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, an expert in design studies and organizational theory. Recently completing his PhD at Carnegie Mellon, Dr. Bloom brings a fresh perspective on the intersection of temporality, complexity, and design, particularly in the context of digital transformation in IT and other industries.

We dive into the nuances of temporality versus time, exploring how these concepts influence design decisions. Dr. Bloom elaborates on how temporality is a qualitative measure of change and its impact on human experience and project planning. This foundational concept sets the stage for understanding "timeful" design, which embraces the dynamic nature of contexts and proposes continual re-evaluation and adaptation.

Dr. Bloom challenges the traditional notion of design as a finite process, suggesting instead that it is an ongoing interaction with the environment. This perspective aligns with DevOps principles, where software development and operations are seen as continuous and evolving processes. He highlights the importance of context and proposition in design, where solutions must be constantly re-assessed to remain relevant as contexts change.

One of the key takeaways from this episode is the idea of "bounded rationality". Dr. Bloom explains how this concept, which acknowledges the limitations of human decision-making capabilities, applies to modern digital systems. He also delves into the concept of "recombining," which involves ongoing negotiation and collaboration across organizational boundaries to address complex problems that cannot be solved by isolated teams.

Dr. Bloom's insights into the temporal nature of objects and systems offer a profound shift in how we perceive design and operational challenges. By viewing software and other technological artifacts as temporal objects, he advocates for a more fluid and adaptive approach to design and implementation, one that continually responds to changing contexts and user needs.

You can Dr. Jabe Bloom on LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jabebloom/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I'm joined by John Dues, Chief Learning Officer at United Schools Network in Ohio and an innovative educator who has ingeniously applied W. Edwards Deming's theories to the educational sector. John shares his journey of discovery into Deming's methodologies and how these have profoundly influenced his approach to improving educational systems.

Our discussion delves into John's initial skepticism and eventual embrace of Deming's System of Profound Knowledge, which consists of understanding systems, variation, psychology, and knowledge theory. John explains his experiences in applying these principles within his school network, particularly how they've been used to enhance operational efficiency and educational outcomes amidst the challenges posed by remote learning during the pandemic.

The conversation also touches on John's approach to leadership and learning, emphasizing the necessity of continuous improvement and systems thinking in educational administration. He highlights the importance of aligning educational strategies with Deming’s philosophies to foster environments that nurture rather than stifle, promoting an organizational culture where insights into systemic improvements are encouraged and valued.

John's innovative application of Deming's theories offers a template for transformative leadership in education, demonstrating the relevance of these age-old concepts in addressing modern challenges within the sector.

You can find John Dues' LinkedIn Below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnadues/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ariane David, PhD, an insightful thinker and academic who delves into the principles of non-positional thinking and its profound impact on personal and organizational learning. We explore how W. Edwards Deming's theories on quality and continuous improvement intersect with modern challenges in digital transformation, particularly within IT, healthcare, and manufacturing sectors.

Dr. David's introduces the four principles of non-positional thinking, beginning with the 'uncertainty principle,' which emphasizes intellectual humility and the acceptance that our perceptions and conclusions might be flawed. This acknowledgment opens the door to 'curiosity,' the second principle, fostering a desire to explore and understand rather than to confirm biases. The discussion progresses to the 'principle of discernment,' where information is analyzed critically to separate useful insights from noise. Lastly, Ariane discusses 'courage,' which is essential for challenging our own assumptions and committing to a path of genuine understanding and improvement .

Throughout the conversation, Dr. David highlights the dangers of 'adaptive learning' in organizations—learning driven by fear and survival instincts—which often prevents genuine insight and improvement. She contrasts this with 'generative learning,' which encourages a blame-free environment where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth and learning, thereby fostering a culture that supports continuous improvement and aligns closely with Deming's philosophy.


You can find Dr. Ariane David's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/arianedavid/

In the second episode of my two-part discussion with Bill Bellows, we explore the nuanced realms of quality management, variation, and integration, drawing from the rich legacy of W. Edwards Deming and Genichi Taguchi, and their profound impact on industries ranging from automotive to aerospace.

Bill Bellows shares enlightening perspectives on the historical collaboration between Ford and Mazda, illuminating the stark differences in their approaches to quality and production. He discusses the importance of minding the gap, not just in terms of parts but in the broader context of integration and systems thinking. This episode delves into the philosophical underpinnings of quality management, touching upon the concepts of red pen and blue pen companies, and the significance of aiming for systemic improvements rather than mere compliance with specifications.

The conversation extends beyond the specifics of automotive engineering, drawing parallels with software development, healthcare systems, and manufacturing processes. Bellows emphasizes the critical role of managing variation not just at the part level but as an integral part of a coherent system. This approach, he argues, is key to achieving superior quality, functionality, and customer satisfaction.

You can find Bill Bellows LinkedIn here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this short episode, I reconnect with Dr. Bill Bellows, a frequent guest and advocate for W. Edwards Deming's principles. The conversation focuses on reviving the In2:In Thinking Network, a nonprofit Dr. Bellows co-founded to improve how individuals and organizations work, learn, and think together. Dr. Bellows discusses the origins of the network and its 16-year legacy of bringing together diverse voices inspired by Deming, Russell Ackoff, and others to explore innovative ways of collaboration.

We also reveal exciting plans for a 2025 In2:In Thinking Network Conference in Santa Clarita, California. This event aims to merge communities from software development, systems thinking, and various industries to foster cross-pollination of ideas. The goal? An "oasis of sanity in a sea of madness," where passionate learners share experiences and challenge conventional approaches to problem-solving.

If you want to learn more or get on the mailing list, reach out to either of us.

In the first part of a two-part series with Bill Bellows, we delve deep into the essence of system thinking and its pivotal role in shaping organizations. Bellows leads us on a journey exploring the nuanced differences between 'Red Pen' and 'Blue Pen' organizations, and beyond, into the realms of 'Me' versus 'We' and the collective impact of every straw on the camel's back.

Bellows opens the discussion with his famous 'Red Pen Blue Pen' exercise, a metaphorical exploration that distinguishes two types of organizations based on quality and system thinking. He illustrates how small details, like the ease of cap removal on pens, can symbolize the deeper operational philosophies and outcomes of organizations. This exercise not only serves as a tool for introspection but also highlights the broader implications of systemic thinking in operational excellence.

Expanding further, Bellows introduces the concepts of 'Me' versus 'We' and the allegory of the last straw, pushing us to contemplate the collective responsibility versus individual blame within organizational contexts. Through these discussions, he underscores the importance of a systemic perspective that fosters collaboration, continuous improvement, and a shared understanding of goals and challenges.

You can find Bill Bellows on LinkedIn here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I had the pleasure of engaging with Dave Nave, a multifaceted expert with a rich background in engineering, quality improvement, and business management consulting. Through his work and studies, Nave has delved deep into W. Edwards Deming's philosophies, applying these principles across various sectors with notable emphasis on manufacturing.

Our conversation explored Nave's initial skepticism towards quality improvement methodologies and his transformative encounter with Deming's teachings. Nave vividly described his early career experiences, where he challenged the concepts of process variability and predictability, only to find empirical evidence that humbled his perspective. This journey led him to embrace Deming's methodologies, seeking further education and eventually contributing to quality improvement initiatives in the defense industry and beyond.

Nave's experiences with the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham University stood out as a pivotal moment in his career. Immersed in Deming's teachings, he gained insights from esteemed professors and applied these lessons to real-world challenges. His anecdotes about the practical applications of Deming's principles, especially in the context of manufacturing assembly lines and quality control, were particularly enlightening.

The conversation also touched upon the challenges and nuances of implementing quality improvement methodologies within organizations. Nave shared stories from his consulting work, highlighting the importance of systemic thinking and the pitfalls of siloed approaches to process improvement.

Dave Nave's LinkedIn can be found below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenave/

In this episode of Profound,  I talk with Dr. Khai Minh Pham, whose unique approach to artificial intelligence challenges conventional paradigms and opens new frontiers in AI research and application. Dr. Pham, with his extensive background in both medicine and artificial intelligence, shares his journey towards creating a distinctive AI framework that prioritizes knowledge over data, steering clear of the traditional data-centric methodologies that dominate the field.

Dr. Pham recounts his early realization of the limitations inherent in human cognitive processes and how this propelled him to explore AI as a means to augment human memory and decision-making capabilities. 

Central to this episode is Dr. Pham's critique of the prevailing AI models that rely heavily on data processing and pattern recognition. He introduces his concept of "macro connectionist AI," a system that mimics human reasoning more closely by forming high-level knowledge representations rather than merely processing data inputs. This approach, according to Dr. Pham, not only enhances AI's problem-solving capabilities but also significantly reduces the computational resources required, challenging the current industry trend towards increasingly complex and energy-intensive AI systems.

you can find Dr. Pham's LinkedIn below:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/khai-minh-pham/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I engage in an insightful conversation with Richard Steele, founder and president of Peeker Services. We explore his journey from rebuilding locomotives to embracing W. Edwards Deming's principles, leading to a radical change in his company's management practices, particularly around performance appraisals and bonus systems. Steele shares transformative moments, like presenting his new pay program to the Detroit Deming study group, including Dr. Deming himself, and the eventual transition of his company into an employee-owned structure. The dialogue delves into the practical applications of Deming's theories in the workplace, the power of collective problem-solving, and the importance of fostering a culture of learning and adaptation. Finally, we take a look at some of Dick's critiques of Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge.

Steele's narrative demonstrates a successful integration of system thinking and the profound impact of shifting from traditional merit pay to a more inclusive and equitable model, redefining quality and performance metrics within his organization.

Richard's LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-steele-6586477/

 In part two of their discussion, John Willis engages in a deep dive with Bill Bellows on the multifaceted world of safety, quality, and systems thinking. Inspired by the pioneering work of Sydney Decker, Dr. Woods, and Erik Hollnagel, they explore the nuanced perspectives on safety and quality that transcend conventional understanding.

John and Bill navigate the intricate connections between thoroughness, efficiency, and effectiveness, drawing parallels to the foundational principles of Deming and Ackoff. They dissect the Efficiency-Thoroughness Trade-Off (ETTO) principle introduced by Hollnagel, pondering its implications in the context of operational safety and quality management.

The conversation further delves into Russ Ackoff’s insights on systems thinking, the DIKW (Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom) model, and the profound impact of understanding complex systems on improving organizational outcomes. Bill shares anecdotes from his experiences, illustrating the practical application of these concepts in real-world settings, including his work at Rocketdyne and with the Deming community.

Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

Show Notes:
1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/

2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf

3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 

3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 

4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html

5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/0956537995

6) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/ 

In this episode, I sit down once again with Bill Bellows to explore the interconnected nature of quality thinking. Our conversation ventures beyond traditional boundaries, drawing on Bill's unique insights into systemic thinking and its implications for organizational excellence.

We delve into the philosophy of interconnectedness, illustrating how quality extends far beyond the superficial, embedding itself into every facet of production and service. Bill shares enlightening perspectives on the importance of viewing organizations as whole systems, where every element is interrelated and changes in one part can ripple through others.

Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/


Show Notes:
1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/

2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf

3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 

3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 

4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html

5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/0956537995

6) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/ 

I have a great discussion between Derek Lewis and John Willis, focusing on the historical and philosophical underpinnings of quality control and those who were paramount to the movement including Walter Shewhart, W. Edwards Deming, and Joseph M. Juran. The dialogue includes anecdotes, critiques, and appreciations of Shewhart and Deming's work, including a dramatic rendition of a critique by Juran. 

Additionally, we touch on the dynamics of recognition and credit within the field, highlighting the broader system thinking introduced by Deming to Japanese industries and contrasting perspectives on their contributions to quality control.

I have an enlightening conversation with Adam Hawkins in this episode. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality. 

Our dialogue explores how this expansive framing of quality requires connecting producers and consumers in a broader system. We relate these concepts to service level objectives (SLOs) and their role in quantifying acceptable loss balanced against keeping systems valuable. This leads us to the profound realization that quality is contextual, varying across different systems and business needs.

Among other topics, we touch on the intricacies of variation, Deming's red bead experiment, the challenges of measurement and pragmatism, bringing quality thinking into software, and the difficulty of conveying Deming's multifaceted ideas to novices. Our exchange centers on constructing shared mental models to apply Deming's deep knowledge in today's digital landscape.

Adam’s LinkedIn can be found here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hi-adam-hawkins/

Software Delivery in Small Batches Podcast:
https://smallbatches.fm/people/adam-hawkins

Precision, Accuracy, and Two Quality Questions: Unpacking a conversation between John Willis and Bill Bellows on Taguchi's approach to quality
https://softwarekaizen.substack.com/p/c83a7c05-d5b0-4cb3-93db-0e359108e3bb

In this second part of a two-part series, I speak with Bill Bellows about W. Edwards Deming's influence on Japanese manufacturing, specifically Toyota. We discuss Deming's relationship with Genichi Taguchi and how their quality philosophies intersect and complement each other. We explore Deming and Taguchi's differing notions of quality - meeting specifications versus minimizing loss to society. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this first part of a two-part series, I chat with Bill Bellows in this episode. Bill gave us a little history of his introduction to Genichi Taguchi's methods and quality concepts while working as an engineer in the jet engine industry. We explore key ideas around variability reduction, precision vs accuracy, process capability, and Taguchi's loss function. Our conversation looks at the difference between traditional quality approaches focused on specifications and Taguchi's view of quality based on quantifying loss and variation. We riff on analogies using a dartboard and Deming's red bead experiment to clarify Taguchi's perspectives on "loss" and variation even within specification limits. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this second installment of my conversation with Dr. David Woods, we continue our exploration of resilience engineering and complexity science, focusing on practical applications and actionable strategies. Building on the foundational concepts from part one, Dr. Woods offers deeper insights into how organizations can thrive in unpredictable environments by embracing resilience as a core competency.

We dive into the nuts and bolts of designing systems that can adapt and recover, emphasizing the importance of fostering collaboration, continuous learning, and feedback loops. Dr. Woods connects these practices to W. Edwards Deming’s teachings, particularly the interplay between profound knowledge and operational flexibility. Our conversation also underscores the significance of learning from near misses and small failures, treating them as opportunities to strengthen systems rather than vulnerabilities to hide.

Key highlights include:

• The Adaptive Cycle: Dr. Woods introduces a powerful framework for understanding how systems evolve and adapt over time, offering lessons for IT, healthcare, and manufacturing.
• Learning from Disruption: Examples of organizations that turned crises into growth opportunities by leveraging resilience principles.
• Operationalizing Resilience: How leaders can embed resilience thinking into daily operations through deliberate design and cultural shifts, echoing Deming’s focus on systems thinking and constancy of purpose.

This episode serves as a practical guide for anyone seeking to bridge theoretical concepts with real-world applications. Dr. Woods leaves us with actionable takeaways on how to lead and thrive in an era of constant change, making this a must-listen for leaders and practitioners alike.

I geek out with Tracy Bannon in this episode. Tracy gave us a little history of MITRE and her work at MITRE. DevOps, DevSecOps, and SRE, were also discussed from words to movements. We explore QA and risk controls as well as modern governance. Our conversation ended with a great discussion about generative AI, specifically ChatGPT.  Tracy can be found on Linkedin here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracylbannon/

This episode features Mike Harris, a Tester at Geckoboard who self-identifies as a Tester. We discuss how vital Dr. Deming's ideas are to testing, especially around the System of Profound Knowledge, with Mike, who has worked in testing for 20 years. It is another example of Dr. Deming's ideas' relevance in the modern era.

Here's a summary:

Introducing Mike Harris.
0:02

Deming’s journey of profound knowledge and the importance of systems thinking.
5:22

How do we verify what we think we know?
11:20

Driving out fear in your team.
17:36

The tyranny of the prevailing style of management and how to break it.
23:45

What is agile? How did it start?
29:31

Words matter to Deming.
37:42

Do you find that most people in the testing community don’t have a clear operational definition?
43:30

Links:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-harris-citp-mbcs-5a75733/
https://testandanalysis.home.blog/

In this episode, Donna and I discuss what's wrong with the words Root Cause and Root Cause Analysis. Our original thoughts and the differences between the old and new meanings are discussed. Undoubtedly, Dr. Deming's words matter, and we try to figure out what he would have said. 

I'm John Willis (Botchagalupe). For almost ten years, I have been researching and writing a book about Dr. Deming. About two years ago, I got serious about the work, and then the pandemic struck. I should write this book if I ever intend to do so. Two years ago, I started working with a wonderful consultant, Derek Lewis. He has a phenomenal voice that you get to hear. I have worked with him for two years. After about a year of writing, I naively thought I was done. A year later, with five drafts, I could continue for another five years. However, I have finally begun working with a publisher. There will be some excellent news on that front. Hopefully, the audio, final, and Kindle versions will be available this summer. The paperback might not be available until the end of the year due to printing and supply chain issues.

There are two things to note about this edition. One, it is an early version, so there will be changes when we finally produce and publish the production audio version. Two, I used a dramatic version for this edition. To add excitement, I added some voiceovers and minor sound effects. I hope you enjoy listening to this audiobook’s first three chapters. If you would like an early copy to finish the book, please contact botchagalupe@gmail.com. However, it won't be a version for distribution. The final version may or may not change. 

I hope you enjoy the first three chapters; the actual final book will have 20 chapters, as it stands at 350 pages. 

I interview a longtime Dr. Deming fan and early DevOps pioneer in this episode. Donna has a similar background to mine, where we both worked before the age of clouds and modern infrastructure. You are going to enjoy this podcast. Here are some links for follow-up knowledge.

Donna Knapp Linkedin

ReCommoning: Transitioning Organisations with Jabe Bloom

The Visible Ops Handbook

TRADE-OFFS UNDER PRESSURE: HEURISTICS AND OBSERVATIONS OF TEAMS RESOLVING INTERNET SERVICE OUTAGES

What Would Deming Do

Dennis is the founder of Sergent Results Group. Sergent Results Group was founded in 2000 and offers professional coaching, consulting, leadership learning, quality and productivity training and expert facilitation. The company created Continual Quality Improvement (CQI) Academy™ for leaders and managers seeking to understand the scientific improvement methods of W. Edwards Deming and others.

Dennis describes his experiences with Dr. Deming's teaching. I am a huge fan of another Deming student, Ron Moen, Dennis has worked with Ron on a couple of occasions. If you are a Dr. Deming fan, this is another great podcast where you get here more untold stories. I hope you enjoy.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sergentresultsgroup/

In this episode Damon Edwards interviews me about my upcoming Deming book. Damon and I have been DevOps partners in crime since the beginning of DevOps. We were both down in Boca Raton recording for the Techstrong Predict conference. Techstrong let us use their facility to record the podcast. Damon does a great job of pulling knowledge about my book. 

Glenn Wilson, author of "DevSecOps: A leader's guide to producing secure software without compromising flow, feedback, and continuous improvement" discusses our upcoming trip to Japan. We are both becoming huge fans of Katie Anderson (see my last podcast), and we are attending her Japan trip. I asked him why he signed up for the trip. In addition, we discuss Katie's book and how it's a perfect complement to Mike Rother's Toyota Kata and Steven Spear's High Velocity Edge. You might find some bonus material if you're an Umberto Eco fan.

Links:
Glenn Wilson
Glenn's DevSecOps Book
Katie Anderson
Katie's Japan Trip

Katie Anderson is a leadership coach, consultant, and author who inspires individuals and organizations. In 2015, she moved to Japan from public health research. She shares lessons she learned in Japan about deepening your leadership skills with The Profound podcast.  As Katie had already applied Toyota production principles in the healthcare system, her life in Japan inspired her to learn lean at the source. Transitioning from public health to consulting was her big pivot away from academia and research.

Katie's Website

Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn

Dave and I have a long history together. Besides being one of the DevOps OG's (did I say that right?) Dave has also been a fan of Dr. Deming for many years and came on the podcast to let me know about his consulting work and Deming's principles. Dave specializes in DevOps and private equity. When I hang out with Dave, I always have a great time. You can find him at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmangot/

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. David Woods, a leading expert in resilience engineering and complexity science, for the first of a two-part conversation. Together, we explore the interplay between resilience, complexity, and systems thinking, diving into how these principles intersect with W. Edwards Deming’s transformative ideas on quality and continual improvement.

Dr. Woods introduces the foundational concepts of resilience and highlights its critical importance in an era marked by rapid digital transformation. We discuss how organizations in IT, healthcare, and manufacturing can adapt to unforeseen challenges by fostering resilient systems capable of anticipating, absorbing, and recovering from disruptions. Connecting these insights to Deming’s framework, Dr. Woods emphasizes the need for leadership to shift focus from static efficiency to dynamic adaptability.

Key themes in this episode include:

• Resilience in Action: Real-world examples of how organizations have successfully implemented strategies to thrive under complexity.
• Complexity and Systems Thinking: The dangers of oversimplifying complex systems and how embracing uncertainty can drive innovation.
• The Role of Leadership: How leaders can cultivate an environment that values learning, experimentation, and Systemic Thinking, echoing Deming’s principles of profound knowledge.

Dr. Woods’ expertise provides a thought-provoking lens for understanding how organizations can prepare for the unexpected while staying true to the pursuit of quality and improvement. Part one lays a strong foundation for the continuation of our discussion in the next episode, where we’ll delve deeper into practical strategies and case studies.

Rob and I go old school in this episode. We had first met back in my early days before DevOps when I used to run a Tivoli consulting business. Rob describes how he used Dr. Deming's principles in his consulting work. Rob works alongside Dr. Cherry Vu and describes himself as a Teal Unicorn. LinkedIn and Twitter are the best places to find Rob and Cherry's ideas and work.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/robenglandattwohills

https://twitter.com/rob_england

Dominico Lepore developed the Decalogue™ management methodology together with Oded Cohen, a leading, world-renowned expert in The Theory of Constraints. One of the first books I read about Dr. Deming is his "Deming and Goldratt: The Theory of Constraints and the System of Profound Knowledge." In this episode, we cover everything from Dr. Deming's empathy to how the Talmud explains of Theory of Constraints. If you stick around long enough we discuss Umberto Eco. 

Intelligent Management
https://www.intelligentmanagement.ws/

Ess3ntial: a tool with a mission
https://ess3ntial.com/

This is part 2 of a two-part episode with John Hunter. John Hunter's background includes two areas of focus: management improvement and information technology program management. His experience is in improving the performance of organizations. For the last 15 years, his focus has been on management improvement with a concentration on using technology to aid this process.

Linkedin
Curious Cat
Johnhunter.com

Here are some links John sent me.

Sales Commissions

  https://deming.org/eliminate-sales-commissions-reject-theory-x-management-and-embrace-systems-thinking/

(including why Fog Creek Software got rid of sales commissions)

Why ThoughtWorks Eliminated Sales Commissions

https://deming.org/why-thoughtworks-eliminated-sales-commisions/

https://deming.org/eliminating-sales-commissions-at-air-force-one/

The System of Profound Knowledge Applied to Sales and Marketing (presentations at Deming Institute)  
 
https://deming.org/the-system-of-profound-knowledge-applied-to-sales-and-marketing/

Related Material:

https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2010/01/28/the-trouble-with-incentives-they-work/

The Existing Management Conditions Limit How Effective New Strategies Will Be

https://deming.org/the-existing-management-conditions-limit-how-effective-new-strategies-will-be/

(with related links including )

https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2010/12/08/building-adoption-of-management-improvement-ideas-in-your-organization/ )

This is part 1 of a two-part episode with John Hunter. John Hunter's background includes two areas of focus: management improvement and information technology program management. His experience is in improving the performance of organizations. For the last 15 years, his focus has been on management improvement with a concentration on using technology to aid this process.

Linkedin
Curious Cat
Johnhunter.com

Here are some links John sent me.

Sales Commissions

  https://deming.org/eliminate-sales-commissions-reject-theory-x-management-and-embrace-systems-thinking/ 

(including why Fog Creek Software got rid of sales commissions)

Why ThoughtWorks Eliminated Sales Commissions

https://deming.org/why-thoughtworks-eliminated-sales-commisions/

https://deming.org/eliminating-sales-commissions-at-air-force-one/

The System of Profound Knowledge Applied to Sales and Marketing (presentations at Deming Institute)  
 
https://deming.org/the-system-of-profound-knowledge-applied-to-sales-and-marketing/

Related Material:

https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2010/01/28/the-trouble-with-incentives-they-work/

The Existing Management Conditions Limit How Effective New Strategies Will Be 

https://deming.org/the-existing-management-conditions-limit-how-effective-new-strategies-will-be/

(with related links including )

https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2010/12/08/building-adoption-of-management-improvement-ideas-in-your-organization/ )

In this episode, Gene Kim and I talk about all things DevOps. We discuss some of his podcasts on the Idealcast along with his current work with Dr. Spear. Almost all of Gene's work can be found at Itrevolution.com.

In this episode, Bill and I discuss operations research and supply chain concepts and how they apply to security. Bill gives an overview of his work with DOD on project DEDSORD. He also gives a great overview of DevOps Automated Governance and usage of Sigstore.  We also touch on SBOM's. Bill can be found mainly on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billbensing/

Chris Roberts is my guest on this episode. I have had the privilege of getting to know him over the past few years. I find him fascinating to talk with. Chris describes himself as a ... Hacker, InfoSec, Safety, Cyberstuff Researcher, Advisor, @Hacknotcrime henchman, and various other names in the technical world. Chris serves as a vCISO or advisor for several entities worldwide. We discuss his background and how our industry may have lost its soul. This episode is definitely worth listening to. Chris can be found at the following places:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidragon1/

Twitter: @Sidragon1

We discuss burnout in this episode (part 2). Jesse Getzie shares some of his recent "serious" burnout struggles.  Burnout is a major problem in our industry. If Dr. Deming was alive today, I believe he would be a strong advocate for helping people understand this silent killer.  If you need to reach us, Jesse and I are just a tweet, email, or phone call away.

Jesse can be found at: 

Email: jgetzie@gmail.com 

Twitter: @jessgetzie

Linkedin: jessegetzie

 

Here's a list of some burnout resources.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

 Emotions Anonymous
https://emotionsanonymous.org/

 National Alliance on Mental Health
https://nami.org/Home

 Open Sourcing Mental Illness
https://osmihelp.org/

 Karōjisatsu — Death From Overwork
https://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/

Burnout in Information Security
http://www.slideshare.net/secburnout/burnout-in-information-security

Burnout and post-traumatic stress disorder: Dr. Geri Puleo at
TEDxSetonHillUniversity
https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI

Understanding Burnout," Prof. Christina Maslach (U.C. Berkeley)
https://youtu.be/4kLPyV8lBbs

Maslach Burnout Inventory
http://www.mindgarden.com/117-maslach-burnout-inventory

 REVERSING BURNOUT: How to rekindle your passion for your work
http://www.choixdecarriere.com/pdf/6573/Maslach_Leiter(2005).pdf

Depression

I had a black dog, his name was depression
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc

Living With a Black Dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRRx7Mtep8

Stress and Depression - A taboo in our time
https://vimeo.com/channels/lascot14/106927863

Feeling Good – The New Mood Therapy
http://feelinggood.com/books/

We discuss burnout in this episode (part 1). Jesse Getzie shares some of his recent "serious" burnout struggles.  Burnout is a major problem in our industry. If Dr. Deming was alive today, I believe he would be a strong advocate for helping people understand this silent killer.  If you need to reach us, Jesse and I are just a tweet, email, or phone call away.

Jesse can be found at: 

Email: jgetzie@gmail.com 

Twitter: @jessgetzie

Linkedin: jessegetzie

 

Here's a list of some burnout resources.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

 Emotions Anonymous
https://emotionsanonymous.org/

 National Alliance on Mental Health
https://nami.org/Home

 Open Sourcing Mental Illness
https://osmihelp.org/

 Karōjisatsu — Death From Overwork
https://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/

Burnout in Information Security
http://www.slideshare.net/secburnout/burnout-in-information-security

Burnout and post-traumatic stress disorder: Dr. Geri Puleo at
TEDxSetonHillUniversity
https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI

Understanding Burnout," Prof. Christina Maslach (U.C. Berkeley)
https://youtu.be/4kLPyV8lBbs

Maslach Burnout Inventory
http://www.mindgarden.com/117-maslach-burnout-inventory

 REVERSING BURNOUT: How to rekindle your passion for your work
http://www.choixdecarriere.com/pdf/6573/Maslach_Leiter(2005).pdf

Depression

I had a black dog, his name was depression
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc

Living With a Black Dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRRx7Mtep8

Stress and Depression - A taboo in our time
https://vimeo.com/channels/lascot14/106927863

Feeling Good – The New Mood Therapy
http://feelinggood.com/books/

I get to chat with Andrew Clay Shafer in this episode. Andrew was one of the original pioneers of the DevOps movement. His presentation titled "There Is No Talent Shortage" has always been one of my favorite DevOps presentations. We talked about Andrew's background and how he got into Dr. Deming. He also spoke about his ideas about learning organizations and other interesting topics. It was a great way to end the season. For many years, Andrew has been a mentor and a friend to me. 

In this episode, I invite Tracy Ragan, CEO of DeployHub, on the podcast for an in-depth discussion on the evolution of DevOps, the complexities of modern software systems, and the cultural challenges women face in technology. Tracy's rich history in software development, from working on mainframes in the late 1980s to spearheading DevOps advancements, provides a fascinating lens through which to examine the industry.

Key Topics Discussed:

1. The Historical Context of DevOps: Tracy recounts the industry's shift from mainframe to distributed systems and the lessons learned (and forgotten) along the way. She highlights the recurring mistakes in adopting "shiny new objects" without addressing foundational issues, such as dependency chaos and scripting overuse.
2. AI and Long-Tail Productivity: Tracy and John explore AI's transformative potential, emphasizing that its real impact lies in long-term gains rather than short-term ROI. Tracy draws parallels to past transitions, like the adoption of relational databases, arguing that AI's value will be fully realized only with improved system architectures.
3. The Persistent Challenge of Women in Tech: Tracy candidly discusses her experiences as a woman in a male-dominated industry, noting a regression in gender diversity, particularly post-COVID. She highlights systemic issues, including exclusion from key networking opportunities and persistent biases, advocating for cultural shifts to empower women in tech.
4. DeployHub’s Role in Tackling DevOps Complexity: Tracy introduces DeployHub's innovative approach to managing software supply chains and SBOMs (Software Bill of Materials). By mapping dependencies and automating vulnerability remediation, DeployHub aims to reduce the time and complexity of patch management, addressing critical gaps in modern software pipelines.

I talked with Tom Geraghty in session. Physiological safety is Tom's passion. He tells me a bit about his journey with Dr. Deming. After that, we dive deep into the topic of physiological safety. It was a great session. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 

Tom’s Website
https://tomgeraghty.co.uk/

This podcast is the last podcast of 2021 and marks the end of season #1. I do a quick overview and review of the podcast over the year.  I wanted to thank the following guests: 

Ben Rockwood (@benr)
Doris Quinn
Mary and Tom Poppendieck (@mpoppendieck)
Jeffrey Fredrick (@Jtf)
George Dekker (@GeorgeDekker)
Dr. Steven Spear (@StevenJSpear)
Courtney Kissler (@chawklady)
Josh Corman (@joshcorman)
Kevin Behr (@kevinbehr)
Elisabeth Hendrickson (@testobsessed)
harper (@harper)
Carmen DeArdo 
Dennis Schlagheck 
Glenn Wilson (@GlennDynaminet)
Mark Burgess (@markburgess_osl)
John Waraniak (@JohnWaraniak)
Steve Pereira (@SteveElsewhere)
Jabe Bloom (@cyetain)
Paula Thrasher (@paula_thrasher)
Dominica DeGrandis (@dominicad)
Laksh Raghavan (@laraghavan)
Tom Geraghty (@tom_geraghty)
Andrew Clay Shafer (@littleidea)

This is part 2 of my podcast with Laksh Raghavan.

I met Laksh Raghavan through a Twitter dispute on Pragmatism and Epistemology.  We decided to hop on a zoom session to discuss it.  After about 5 minutes I realized I was out of my element. Laksh really knew his stuff. We decided to do a podcast. This is the first part of a two part series. We cover a lot of interesting ground regarding general philosophy, Pragmatism, Epistemology, and Systems Thinking. If you liked my previous podcast with Jabe Bloom should enjoy this podcast as well. 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/laraghavan/

I met Laksh Raghavan through a Twitter dispute on Pragmatism and Epistemology.  We decided to hop on a Zoom session to discuss it.  After about 5 minutes I realized I was out of my element. Laksh really knew his stuff. We decided to do a podcast. This is the first part of a two-part series. We cover a lot of interesting ground regarding general philosophy, Pragmatism, Epistemology, and Systems Thinking. If you liked my previous podcast with Jabe Bloom should enjoy this podcast as well. 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/laraghavan/