Explore every episode of the podcast Poets & Thinkers
| Title | Pub. Date | Duration | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Make Doing Good Look Good: On designing for belonging, moral ambition and the pitfalls of privilege with Harald Dunnink | 25 Mar 2026 | 00:40:55 | |
Can designing a movement get the smartest people to work on the biggest problems instead of disappearing into what one author calls “the Bermuda Triangle of talent”: consulting, tech, and banking? In this episode, Ben sits down with Harald Dunnink, designer, serial co-founder, and advocate for moral ambition. Harald founded Momkai, a Dutch design agency “for people who give a damn,” co-founded De Correspondent (a member-funded journalism platform on a mission for “unbreaking news”), and most recently launched the School for Moral Ambition with bestselling author Rutger Bregman. Harald’s design philosophy centers, as he describes, on “making doing good look as good as possible” – using the same branding and marketing tools that sell sneakers and energy drinks to instead sell noble causes. He challenges the extractive mindset of traditional business with what he calls “memberful design” – designing not for users to be hooked, but for members to belong. Through his work he tries to combine the idealism of an activist with the ambition of an entrepreneur. This is a conversation about the difference between being radically hopeful and being called naive. About the role privilege plays in being able to choose morally ambitious work, and how to redefine success when everyone around you follows the same maximalist capitalistic playbook. Resources & References Momkai: https://momkai.com/ School for Moral Ambition: https://schoolformoralambition.org/ Small Fry by Lisa Brennan-Jobs Humankind by Rutger Bregman Moral Ambition by Rutger Bregman The Good-Enough Life by Avram Alpert Connect with Harald Dunnink LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haralddunnink/ Bio: Harald is a designer and serial co-founder who describes his philosophy as “cultivating calm and designing for belonging”. He founded Momkai, a Dutch design agency, working with international clients from Nike to Red Bull before pivoting to use those branding tools for social good. Harald also co-founded The Correspondent, a member-funded journalism platform for as he says “unbreaking news,” which also became a publishing house with nearly 30 bestselling books. Most recently, he co-founded the School for Moral Ambition with bestselling author Rutger Bregman, focusing on the biggest, most neglected, yet fixable problems. Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| For The Culture: On beauty, AI slop, and what lasts when software companies die with Andy Allen | 11 Mar 2026 | 00:55:31 | |
What if the best business advice ever came from a five-year-old: “I think you should add some googly eyes and rainbow colors!” In this episode, Ben sits down with Andy Allen, co-founder of Not Boring Software, 2 times Apple Design Award winner, and former co-founder of the groundbreaking startup FiftyThree – makers of the Paper app and Pencil stylus. Andy challenges the dominant narrative of software design: While the industry has matured and systematized around efficiency and automation over the last 30+ years, he argues we've lost the cultural impact, the playfulness, the human expression that makes software worth making. As he draws parallels to fashion and industrial design, Andy reveals why software designers have no heroes to look up to – only billionaires – and why that's a problem. His students at the University of Washington taught him to remember why he became a designer in the first place: not to optimize conversion funnels, but to make things that matter. This is a conversation about slowing down and embracing play. Resources & References For The Culture (Andy’s manifesto): https://notbor.ing/words/for-the-culture Not Boring: https://notbor.ing/ FiftyThree launches Pencil: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/19/fiftythree-paper-pencil-ipad-stylus Connect with Andy Allen Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewsallen/ Bio: Andy Allen is the Alaskan-born, founder of !Boring Software Ltd creating fun software for life's boring routines (2x Apple Design Awards). Co-Founder of FiftyThree and the popular drawing app, Paper (acquired). Adjunct Professor of Software Design at the University of Washington's School of Art. Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Multisensory Beings: How neuroaesthetics shapes the future human-machine interaction and art – with Matthew Bennett | 23 Jul 2025 | 00:49:22 | |
Humans are multisensory beings. What if the tiny sounds you hear from your devices every day are literally vibrating through your body, changing your nervous system, and collectively creating decades of audio pollution? And what do we do about it in an age where generative AI is likely going to add even more noise? In this fascinating episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the profound intersection of sound, technology, and human experience with Matthew Bennett, a composer, sound artist, and sensory designer who led sound design at Microsoft for 12 years. From his home studio in Seattle, Matthew reveals how he shaped the sonic experience of billions of people worldwide while pioneering a new paradigm for technology sound design. Matthew takes us on a journey through the science of sound as sensory experience – not just something we hear, but a form of touch that vibrates our entire body and changes our physiology. He shares mind-blowing insights about how Microsoft’s tiny notification sounds, when multiplied across hundreds of millions of users, created decades of sound pollution daily – and how his team cut 10 years off that global audio footprint by shortening sounds by just one second. Through the lens of neuroaesthetics and multisensory design, Matthew illustrates why our digital experiences are always multisensory whether we intend them to be or not. Throughout our conversation, Matthew challenges the current AI music generation hype, revealing how these tools expose the formulaic nature of popular music while lacking the human intention and authenticity that gives art its soul. He advocates for a “do no harm” approach to sound design, emphasizing the importance of designing silence and understanding that unexpected sounds can hijack our brains and trigger fight-or-flight responses. His vision for Musical Sensory Environments and precision therapies offers a glimpse into how sound can heal rather than harm. In this discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to understand sound as a powerful force that shapes our digital ecosystems, our physical well-being, and our human connections – and to approach the creation of sensory experiences with the care and intention they deserve. Resources Mentioned
Connect with Matthew Bennett: Website: https://soundandsensory.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-bennett-design/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| “Liftoff” rounds, data moats, and trust barriers: How AI is rewriting the venture capital rules with Pascal Unger | 09 Jul 2025 | 00:45:25 | |
What if venture capital is finally getting the reset it desperately needed? And what does that mean for the qualities and skills required for future founders, startup leaders, and even investors? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of venture capital and startup building with Pascal Unger, managing partner at pre-seed VC firm focal. From his base in Miami, Pascal brings a unique perspective shaped by his Swiss roots and global experiences spanning coding, consulting at BCG, and finance before diving into the venture world. Pascal takes us on a journey through the evolution of software – from systems of record in the 1980s to systems of engagement in the 2000s, and now to systems of intelligence that can automate entire workflows rather than just optimize them. He reveals why this shift is creating what many VCs believe to be the largest market opportunity in history, as software can now target not just software budgets but headcount budgets and enable companies to do exponentially more with existing resources. Through compelling examples of how his portfolio companies are building data moats and reducing friction to adoption, Pascal illustrates what it takes to win in this new paradigm. However, this platform shift also challenges the VC model to its core because small teams can now go further and faster than ever, start generating revenue early, without requiring to raise a lot of venture capital. Pascal challenges conventional wisdom about startup building, arguing that distribution and go-to-market strategy are now more critical than ever before. He shares his framework for assessing founders across six key dimensions – from learning speed to moral compass. His insights on the “liftoff round” concept and the compression of funding cycles offer a glimpse into how venture capital itself is being reimagined for the AI era. In our discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to understand how the fundamental rules of software, venture capital, and startup building are being rewritten in the AI era – and what it takes to thrive rather than just survive in this new paradigm. Topics 02:45 - Pascal’s journey from Switzerland to BCG to founding Focal VC 05:10 - The evolution of software: from systems of record to engagement to intelligence 07:25 - Why systems of intelligence represent the biggest market opportunity in history 09:50 - The role of trust in AI adoption and keeping humans in the loop 13:35 - How startups can compete against foundation model providers with proprietary data 16:20 - Building data moats through integration strategies and reducing friction 20:25 - Trust-building measures for startups in high-stakes vs. low-risk use cases 24:10 - Why the minimum bar for software quality is rising rapidly 26:10 - The importance of adaptability and model flexibility in AI startups 29:10 - The six dimensions for assessing founders: learning speed, execution, adaptability, emotional stability, grit, and integrity 32:15 - Why curiosity and doing-over-thinking are more valuable than formal education 37:30 - The US vs. Europe cultural divide: individualism vs. community-based societies&nb Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| The Dark Side of Empathy: On AI “Soul Gaps”, emotional commons, and the responsibility to develop humane technologies with Michael Ventura | 24 Jun 2025 | 00:38:48 | |
What if the very technology that promises to make us more efficient is actually creating “soul gaps” – spaces where human understanding and meaning simply cannot be replicated? In this deeply insightful episode of Poets and Thinkers, we explore the future of humanistic leadership with Michael Ventura, founder of SubRosa, author of “Applied Empathy,” and a fascinating polymath who bridges brand strategy, alternative medicine, and human development. From his practice at Esalen Institute to co-founding a pet food company with Chrissy Teigen and John Legend, Michael brings a unique perspective on how empathy serves as the new language of leadership. Michael takes us on a journey through what empathy really means – distinguishing it from sympathy and compassion – and why it's become critical for leaders navigating increasingly diverse, multi-generational workforces. He shares compelling insights about how AI can replicate the technical aspects of creativity but misses the essential human elements, like where to place the divine spark of light in a Renaissance painting. Through examples ranging from political manipulation to Meta’s disturbing targeting of insecure teenagers, Michael reveals both the light and dark sides of applied empathy. Throughout our conversation, Michael challenges us to slow down in a world obsessed with speed, arguing that patience – not just efficiency – should be a core leadership skill. He envisions a future where leaders move from having all the answers to asking all the right questions, creating space for diverse perspectives and collective intelligence. And we’ll even get a little teaser for Michael’s upcoming book on “constellation thinking” which promises to revolutionize how we understand purpose in our complex, multi-faceted modern lives. In this discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to reclaim the deeply human skills that technology cannot replicate, and to use empathy not as weakness but as a strategic advantage in building more connected, innovative organizations. Resources Mentioned
Connect with Michael Ventura: Website: https://www.michaelventura.co/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mvmvmv/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Rewriting All Layers Of The Stack – Leading with agency when everyone is uncomfortable with Meg Bear | 11 Jun 2025 | 00:41:35 | |
What if the discomfort leaders feel right now, at the beginning of the AI age, isn’t a problem to solve, but the exact place where transformation happens? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of organizational leadership and human potential with Meg Bear, a seasoned tech executive turned “future inventor” who brings a unique perspective as a fifth-generation Bay Area native and first-generation college graduate. From her advisory work with CEOs and boards to her mission of creating abundant futures that value our shared humanity, Meg offers a compelling vision for navigating unprecedented change. Meg takes us on a journey through her unconventional life and career path – from engineering leadership at Oracle and president of SAP’s HCM (Human Capital Management) business to her current work helping organizations harness human ingenuity. She reveals why the traditional business leadership playbook – built on certainty and past experience – is not only obsolete but counterproductive in our current moment. Drawing from her background as a cultural outsider who learned to navigate different worlds, Meg explains how the skills of adaptation and cross-cultural communication that immigrants develop are exactly what all leaders need now. Throughout our conversation, Meg challenges the narrative that change is simply happening to us, instead advocating for agency in shaping the future we want to live in. She argues that we’re at a unique moment where discomfort is hitting “all layers of the stack” – from the board room and the c-suite to the ICs – and that this discomfort is not only natural but necessary for growth. Her vision for leadership emphasizes curiosity over certainty, collective intelligence over individual expertise, and the courage to embrace vulnerability as a pathway to learning. In this transformative discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation for leaders to move beyond fear-based reactions to inevitable change, and instead embrace the agency we have to invent futures that serve our shared humanity. Resources Mentioned
Connect with Meg Bear: Website: megbear.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megbear/ Bio Meg Bear is a CEO, advisor, and board member. She was President of SAP SuccessFactors, a leading Human Capital Management (HCM) platform. She is a board member at Heidrick and Struggles, a patent holder, change agent, startup inve Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Slot Machine Creativity: On the value of friction to create meaningful works of art with Nando Costa | 27 May 2025 | 00:48:03 | |
What if the struggle and friction in the creative process is actually what makes art meaningful – and what we’re at risk of losing in our rush toward AI efficiency? In this deeply reflective episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of human creativity and artificial intelligence with Nando Costa, a renowned designer and artist who has been at the very forefront of Generative AI (GenAI) and whose work has shaped the visual identity of major tech companies including Microsoft, Google, and ServiceNow. From his home studio on Bainbridge Island, Nando shares his journey from early GenAI experimentation to a deeper understanding of what makes creativity authentically human. Nando takes us through his extensive exploration of generative AI, having created over 25,000 pieces using these tools, only to discover their addictive, slot-machine-like qualities and ultimate lack of artistic depth. He reveals how this experience led him to champion “slow photography,” deliberate creative processes, and the irreplaceable value of human intention in artistic work. Through compelling examples – from photographers camping for days to capture the perfect shot to his daughter’s (who’s also an artist) immediate rejection of AI-generated art – Nando illustrates why the time, energy, and personal investment we put into creating something directly correlates to its impact on others. Throughout our conversation, Nando challenges the dominant narrative that speed and optimization should drive creative work, instead advocating for depth over speed and originality over optimization. His insights on brand work, creative leadership, and the future of design offer a compelling counter-narrative to the “AI will replace everything” mentality, showing how human creativity becomes more precious – not less – in an automated world. In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to reconsider our relationship with creative tools and the creative act itself, to value the human struggle that gives art its meaning, and to champion depth and originality in an age of optimization. Resources Mentioned
Connect with Nando Costa: Website: https://nandocosta.com/ Link Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| The Optimization Lie: Will AI finally give us the freedom “new work” promised us? – with journalist and author Markus Albers | 13 May 2025 | 00:42:46 | |
Digitalization promised us a brave “new work” world. But instead we ended up with more meetings and “fake work”. What’s next and how do we transform our obsession with productivity tools and endless meetings into meaningful work and real innovation? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the future of work with Markus Albers, a Berlin-based journalist, author, and entrepreneur whose insights have consistently anticipated major shifts in how we work. From his prescient 2008 book predicting remote work to his latest exploration of “the optimization lie,” Markus reveals how our relationship with work has evolved – and why the promised freedom of digital tools has instead chained us to our screens. Markus takes us on a journey through the changing landscape of work, explaining how the initial promise of technology to free us from our desks has instead created an “always on” culture where work seeps into every aspect of our lives. He shares alarming research showing knowledge workers now spend 60% of their time in meetings and collaboration rather than doing creative work – and how this leads to widespread dissatisfaction and disengagement. And the effects on innovation in businesses around the world are fatal. Yet through his research with companies like Bayer, he also uncovers promising models for a more fluid, fulfilling future of work powered by AI and skill-based platforms. Throughout our conversation, Markus challenges conventional management approaches that prioritize control over creation, arguing that leaders need to rediscover their own creative capacities and build organizations where people can actually finish their days feeling they’ve accomplished something meaningful. His vision for the future of work emphasizes fluidity, cross-organizational collaboration, and technology that serves human needs rather than extracting maximum productivity. In this inspiring discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with work—to move beyond optimization for its own sake and create environments where people can truly create, ship, and find fulfillment. Topics 02:30 - Markus’s journey from journalist to author and entrepreneur 04:00 - The Meconomy book and its early vision of the digital revolution 07:30 - The evolution of the "future of work" from liberation to digital exhaustion 09:10 - How we freed ourselves from desk chains but chained ourselves to screens instead 11:30 - Leaders’ fear of losing control in hybrid work environments 12:30 - The need to rediscover our capacity to create and ship meaningful work 14:30 - Microsoft research showing knowledge workers spend 60% of time on collaboration 16:00 - The leadership challenge of reconfiguring how work is done 17:00 - The importance of asynchronous communication skills for leaders 18:40 - The growing debate about “bullshit jobs” and management bureaucracy 20:20 - Why design leadership provides a model for skill-based contributions 25:40 - The dangers of believing every narrative from tech companies 28:00 - How productivity gains from AI are often filled with even more meetings 30:00 - “The Optimization Lie” - Markus’s new book on the broken promise of technology 33:00 - The need for more fluid concepts of work beyond single full-tim Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Beyond “Popcorn Innovation”: Human-First leadership from IBM to the United Nations with Frances West | 30 Apr 2025 | 00:51:35 | |
What if the key to navigating our AI-driven future isn’t about becoming more technological, but rather more authentically human? In this inspiring episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of technology, leadership, and human dignity with Frances West, a pioneering executive whose wisdom spans decades of technological transformation. As IBM’s first-ever Chief Accessibility Officer and a global advocate for digital inclusion, Frances brings a unique perspective on how to harness AI’s potential while keeping humanity at the center. Frances takes us on a journey through her remarkable career, from arriving in America at age 19 to becoming a trailblazing technology executive who helped shape IBM’s approach to human-centered innovation. Drawing on insights from her book “Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation,” she reveals why the skills we’ve traditionally considered “soft” – creativity, empathy, persistence, and ethical judgment – will become our most valuable assets in an AI-driven world. Throughout our conversation, Frances challenges the dominant narratives around AI, arguing that as artificial intelligence becomes more advanced, humans must embrace and cultivate the qualities that make us uniquely human. She offers a compelling vision for business leadership that balances profit with principle and purpose, emphasizing that true innovation must be rooted in meeting authentic human needs rather than merely advancing technology for its own sake. In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with technology through a lens of authentic inclusion, challenging us to develop the leadership qualities that will help humanity thrive alongside artificial intelligence. Topics 00:30 - Introduction to Frances West and her career at IBM 03:30 - The concept of “human first” in technology development 06:00 - Balancing AI advancement with human dignity and agency 13:30 - The importance of building inclusive technology from the start 17:40 - How technology has evolved from mainframes to personalized devices 21:10 - The human qualities AI cannot easily replicate 27:10 - "As AI gets more human, humans need to get more human" 30:40 - Balancing foundational skills with creativity in education 34:00 - The evolution of leadership skills needed for an AI-integrated world 36:00 - The Four L’s of leadership: Listen, Learn, Lived experience, Lead 41:30 - Avoiding "popcorn innovation" with disciplined vision and execution 45:30 - How sales experience grounds technological innovation 50:40 - Frances’s vision for the future of business leadership 52:00 - The Five C’s for future leaders: Confidence, Conviction, Communication, Curiosity, and Courage Resources Mentioned Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation by Frances West Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| The other “F” Word: Embracing failure to elevate human ingenuity in the AI era with professor and author John Danner | 15 Apr 2025 | 00:39:40 | |
What if our fixation on avoiding failure is the very thing blocking us from building organizations that maximize human ingenuity? And why is this business critical in the AI age? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of leadership, innovation, and human potential with John Danner, renowned business advisor, professor, and bestselling author. Drawing on his extensive experience teaching at UC Berkeley and Princeton while advising leaders across sectors, John challenges conventional wisdom about what drives organizational success in our rapidly evolving AI-everything world. John takes us on a journey through what he calls the three fundamental organizational pursuits – growth, innovation, and engagement – and reveals why they all depend on the one thing leaders often fear most: failure. He explains why the status quo serves as the greatest obstacle to progress and how our natural human bias toward familiarity creates resistance to change. Through compelling insights and personal anecdotes from decades of personal experience, John illuminates how fear silences organizational creativity while analyzing startling Gallup research showing only 20% of employees globally are truly engaged in their work. As we navigate the profound transformation brought by AI and other technologies, John presents a critical fork in the road: organizations can pursue "AI to the max" with minimal human input, or they can embrace a more humanistic model built on human ingenuity, imagination, and collaboration. His vision for “invitational leadership” offers a compelling alternative to extractive models that have dominated business thinking for generations. In this discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to reimagine leadership for a more human-centered future, challenging us to develop organizational cultures where everyone – not just an elite few – can contribute their inherent creativity and imagination. Topics 03:10 - The three fundamentals every organization strives for: growth, innovation, and engagement 04:20 - How growth, innovation, and engagement all depend on failure 06:30 - The status quo as the primary obstacle to change and improvement 08:50 - The interconnection between fear, feedback, and failure in organizational culture 12:00 - Leaders acknowledging their own fallibility to create psychological safety 13:10 - Gallup research on employee engagement: only 20% engaged, 15% actively disengaged 15:10 - The concept of “growth for both” – aligning organizational and individual growth 17:30 - The three revolutionary periods: industrial, information, and now the inclusion challenge 21:00 - Two possible futures: “AI to the max” versus human ingenuity and imagination 26:00 - Challenging extractive business models in favor of resourcefulness 28:10 - Shifting from “leadership” to “weedership” – the power of “we” in organizations 31:30 - Creating an “invitational model” of leadership across growth, innovation, and engagement 38:40 - The difference between “trial and error” culture versus “trial and terror” reality 41:30 - Advice for aspiring leaders: know the difference between pivoting and riveting 43:10 - The ACT framework: Ask questions, Chall Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Do You Breathe When You Scroll? The Art of Digital Mindfulness with conceptual artist Hojin Kang | 02 Apr 2025 | 00:39:59 | |
What if the very technology that distracts us could be transformed into a mirror reflecting our deepest human connections? In this fascinating episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of tradition, technology, and mindfulness with Berlin-based artist and designer Hojin Kang. Born to Korean parents in Germany, Hojin creates art that brilliantly juxtaposes ancient spiritual practices with our modern digital behaviors, revealing striking parallels that challenge how we engage with the world around us. Hojin takes us on a journey through his artistic evolution, from his early influences in both Korean Buddhist traditions and cutting-edge technology to his current work exploring human connection through thermal imaging. His provocative installations –from scrolling behaviors reimagined as prayer beads and notification bell sculptures that trigger visceral responses, to thermal imagining cameras in art and border surveillance – expose the tension between our mindless digital habits and the mindful traditions they inadvertently mimic. Throughout our conversation, Hojin reveals how his dual perspective as both artist and designer shapes his creative process, embracing curiosity and emotion while maintaining craftsmanship and quality. As we navigate an increasingly AI-driven world, his insights on maintaining human connection and embodied experiences offer a compelling vision for how we might engage with technology without losing our essential humanity. In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to pause and reconsider our relationship with technology, to find spaces for mindfulness in our digital lives, and to recognize the human warmth that binds us despite our superficial differences. Topics 00:30 - Introduction to Hojin Kang and his background 03:30 - Drawing inspiration from tradition and technology 06:50 - The parallel between prayer beads and social media scrolling 10:00 - The notification bell sculpture and our conditioned responses 15:00 - Technology's impact on our emotional and physiological states 18:40 - Art as observation rather than providing solutions 22:50 - Using technology as a tool while maintaining emancipation from it 28:00 - Cultivating curiosity about humanity above technology 33:00 - The importance of embodied experiences and physical creation 35:00 - "The Warmth That Binds Us" thermal imaging art project 41:20 - How thermal imagery removes visual markers of difference 44:00 - Balancing artistic expression with design discipline 49:20 - The importance of intrinsic motivation in creating meaningful work Resources Mentioned Please Wait (Digital Installation): https://www.hojinkang.com/please_wait/ Scrolling Prayer Beads (Sculpture): https://www.hojinkang.com/scrolling-prayer-beads/ Do you breathe when you scroll (Digital Installation): https://www.hojinkang.com/doyoubreathewhenyouscroll/ Connect with Hojin Kang: Website: https://www.hojinkang.com/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| AI Policy-Making in Service of Humanity: From Davos and Washington DC to Riyadh with Manail Anis Ahmed | 19 Mar 2025 | 00:41:36 | |
What if our approach to AI and technology development is overlooking the most fundamental human value – dignity? In this thought-provoking episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of artificial intelligence, global policy, and human-centered technology with Manail Anis Ahmed. As a global citizen who has shaped educational institutions in the Middle East and led AI policy research, Manail brings a unique cross-cultural perspective that challenges Western-dominated tech narratives. Manail is adjunct faculty in Biotech Entrepreneurship at Johns Hopkins University, expert on education, technology & society, and contributes to the AI Governance Alliance at the World Economic Forum. Manail takes us on a journey across continents, revealing how different societies are navigating the AI revolution through their unique cultural lenses. She unpacks how Saudi Arabia’s rapid transformation of women’s workforce participation offers surprising lessons for the West, and how technology workers in Africa are demanding dignity in the digital economy. Throughout our conversation, Manail makes a compelling case for placing human dignity at the center of our technological future. In this enlightening discussion, we explore:
Throughout our discussion, Manail articulates a powerful critique of hyper-capitalism and technological determinism. The United States, once the model for prosperity, now shows concerning signs of social fragmentation as its middle class splinters. “We are so insistent on protecting the right to innovation that we forget to protect the right to dignity,” she observes, providing a cautionary tale for developing nations tempted to adopt Silicon Valley’s “move fast and break things” mentality. Topics 00:30 - Introduction to Manail and her background as a global citizen 02:50 - Teaching responsible AI at Princeton and how it connects to entrepreneurship 10:40 - Manail's work with the Center for AI and Digital Policy 13:50 - The World Economic Forum AI Governance Alliance and "Inclusive AI" 16:00 - How workers in the Global South are exploited in AI development 18:40 - The emergence of an African technology workers alliance 21:00 - Balancing rapid AI deployment with thoughtful regulation 23:00 - How the U.S. model of unbridled entrepreneurialism led to social fragmentation 28:00 - Saudi Arabia's structural approach to enabling women in the workforce 33:20 - Manail's experience creating liberal arts and business education in Saudi Arabia 41:00 - How women's natural entrepreneurial abilities are systematically undervalued 47:20 - The future of business leadership: beyond profit to resilience and prosperity Connect with Manail Anis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/manailahmed/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Holder of Stories of the Heart: On radical self-inquiry and being a good leader in unsettling times with Jerry Colonna | 25 Feb 2026 | 00:41:48 | |
What if the most radical question you can ask yourself as a leader isn’t about strategy or growth – but simply “How am I actually feeling?” In this very personal episode, Ben sits down with Jerry Colonna, legendary executive coach, former venture capitalist, and author of Reboot and Reunion. Speaking just days after becoming a grandfather, Jerry brings the full weight of his wisdom as “Holder of Stories of the Heart”—a name that came to him during a water-only fast in the desert—to explore what it means to lead with humanity in increasingly inhuman times. Resources & References Reboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up by Jerry Colonna Reunion: Leadership and the Longing to Belong by Jerry Colonna Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse Bell Hooks’ poems “When Angels Speak of Love” REM’s “It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)” Jerry’s essay on coaching from an elder's perspective Connect with Jerry Colonna Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerry-colonna-reboot/ Bio: Leadership through radical self-inquiry. This is the driving idea behind the work of Jerry Colonna. For over two decades, he has been dedicated to the proposition that work should be non-violent to the self, non-violent to the community, and non-violent to the planet. Jerry is a coach, writer, and speaker who focuses on leadership, business, and the practice of radical self-inquiry. He is the Co-founder and CEO of Reboot.io, a company born from the rallying cry that work does not have to destroy us. Work can be the way in which we achieve our fullest self. A graduate of Queens College, Jerry helps people lead with humanity and equanimity. His unique blend of Buddhism, Jungian therapy, and entrepreneurial know-how has made him a sought-after coach and leader, working with some of the largest firms in the country. In his work as a coach, he draws on his experience in Venture Capital (VC) as Co-founder of Flatiron Partners, one of the most successful, early-stage investment programs. Later, he was a partner with J.P. Morgan Partners (JPMP), the private equity arm of J.P. Morgan Chase. As a partner with J.P. Morgan Chase, Jerry launched the Financial Recovery Fund with The Partnership for the City of New York, a $10 million-plus program aimed at creating grants for small businesses impacted by the attacks on the World Trade Center. Along with a strong commitment to the nonprofit sector, Jerry is the author of two books: REBOOT: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up (2019) and REUNION: Leadership and the Longing to Belong. Reboot was met with critical acclaim, stirring up a big question in the hearts and minds of people: "How have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don't want?" Jerry's second book builds on this question, asking us what benefit we get from the conditions we say we don't want. Jerry is astounded by the fact that he lives on a farm outside of Boulder, CO near the foothills of the Rockies, and f Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| The Myth of Greatness and Ethics in Business with author and writer Avram Alpert | 03 Mar 2025 | 00:44:23 | |
What if our obsession with being the best is actually holding us back? In this inaugural episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the myth of greatness with Avram Alpert. He is a writer and teaches at Princeton University. Avi challenges the idea that only the “best” deserve success. He proposes an alternative: “Embracing a ‘good-enough’ approach.” – with a focus on fostering sustainability, fulfillment, and a more equitable society. Avram takes us on a journey through the themes of his book, “The Good-Enough Life”. He unpacks how values influence business, politics, and human connection. We discuss real-world examples of how collaboration, rather than competition, drives meaningful progress. Avram shares how and how leaders can reshape systems to prioritize collective well-being over individual accolades. In this candid and eye-opening conversation, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to shift your perspective on success, challenge the status quo, and imagine a world where everyone gets a seat at the table. Topics 01:00 - Introduction to Avram Alpert and his work 04:30 - The intersection of values and business 07:00 - Role of systemic constraints in ethical decision-making 12:00 - The paradox of societal progress vs. individual well-being 18:00 - Defining greatness vs. “good-enough” 22:00 - The “good-enough parent” and its implications for society 27:00 - How history shows us the power of collaboration 36:00 - The paradox of human nature: individualism vs. collectivism 42:00 - What qualities do we need in future leaders? 46:00 - The case for a “good-enough” future
The Good-Enough Life by Avram Alpert The Theory of Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith
Website: https://www.avramalpert.com/ Get His Book – The Good-Enough Life: www.amazon.com/Good-Enough-Life-Avram-Alpert/dp/0691204357 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Design Against Racism: On the myth of design’s neutrality, lack of critical thinking and the future of design leadership with Omari Souza | 11 Feb 2026 | 00:46:16 | |
In this episode, Ben sits down with Omari Souza, design researcher and professor, founder of the State of Black Design Conference, and author of his newly released book Design Against Racism. A first-generation American of Jamaican descent and first in his family to attend university, Omari brings a perspective shaped by being the sole Black male graduate in his design program—an experience that launched his career-defining investigation into where the Black designers are and why design has failed to serve marginalized communities. We discuss the failures of traditional business and design leadership and explore what a more equitable future vision looks like; and what can be done to make it a reality. Key Ideas:
Resources & References Design Against Racism by Omari Souza State of Black Design Conference Africa to Bauhaus exhibit at the Smithsonian FastCompany article on Joe Gebbia as the United States’ Chief Design Officer Connect with Omari Souza Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omari-souza-b483187/ Bio: Omari Souza is an assistant professor at the University of North Texas. He is the organizer of the State of Black Design Conference (online, April 2021). He previously organized and hosted an multi-panel event titled "The State of Black Design" (online, Sept. 2020), which drew a live audience of 2,071 — the second-largest livestream audience for an academic event in Texas State's history. Omari is a first-generation American of Jamaican descent, raised in the Bronx, New York. Before arriving at Texas State, he gained work experience with companies and institutions such as VIBE magazine, the Buffalo News, CBS Radio, and Case Western Reserve University. He earned a BFA in Digital Media from Cleveland Institute of Art and an MFA in Design from Kent State University. Omari's research explores the idea of perceptions and how visual narratives influence culture — how we view ourselves and others around us. Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Brain Hacking & Trauma-Informed Leadership: Creating space for human ingenuity to flourish with Christina Goldschmidt | 28 Jan 2026 | 00:45:15 | |
What if the only way to unlock ingenuity in our organizations is by showing up as authentic leaders who first and foremost know how to “hack their brain” and lead themselves? In this episode, Ben sits down with Christina Goldschmidt, VP of Product Design at Warner Music Group and adjunct professor at NYU Stern. With her deep understanding of neuroscience and trauma-informed leadership, Christina brings a radically different perspective on how to unlock human potential in the age of AI, and why the future of business leadership requires us to embrace our most human qualities. Christina’s vision for management is about understanding our unique cognitive patterns and building organizations where everyone can access their ingenuity. Key Ideas:
Resources & References Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lemke Notes on Being a Man by Scott Galloway Connect with Christina Goldschmidt Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinagoldschmidt/ Website: https://www.cgoldschmidt.com/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Against the Tyranny of Winners: On beautiful business in the AI age, the rise of “Supercuration”, and the end of efficiency with Tim Leberecht | 14 Jan 2026 | 00:52:45 | |
What if the future of business isn’t human at all—and maybe that’s exactly what will liberate us to become more humane? In this first episode of season 2, Ben sits down with Tim Leberecht, co-founder and CEO of the House of Beautiful Business, and author of The Business Romantic. Speaking from Istanbul, Tim doesn’t mince words: business is fundamentally broken, caught in an unholy alliance of technocracy, late-stage capitalism, and rising authoritarianism. Yet in this darkness, he sees the seeds of something radically different. Key Ideas:
Resources & References House of Beautiful Business – Global community humanizing business The Business Romantic – Tim’s manifesto against optimization Against the Tyranny of the Winners (published in German) Supercuration – Forthcoming book on the art of curation The Poly Opportunity – Series examining intersecting positive trends Douglas Rushkoff on attention and human connection Hartmut Rosa’s Resonance – Sociology of vibration and attunement Gianpiero Petriglieri on love and leadership Shoukei Matsumoto’s Work Like a Monk Connect with Tim Leberecht: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tleberecht/ Website: https://timleberecht.com/ Company: https://houseofbeautifulbusiness.com/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| The Bullshit Economy: How our obsession with control is making us sick with João Sevilhano | 17 Sep 2025 | 00:50:13 | |
What if our desperate need for certainty, predictability, and control is not making us safer but actually making us psychologically ill? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the hidden pathology of modern life with João Sevilhano, a psychologist, business consultant, and philosopher whose work challenges the fundamental assumptions of how we organize society, education, and business. From his home in Lisbon during his summer break, João brings two decades of experience working at the intersection of psychology and corporate culture to reveal the deep contradictions in our pursuit of certainty. João takes us on a journey from ancient Greek concepts of human development to the modern “bullshit economy” that rewards empty performance over substance. Drawing from his background as both a clinical psychologist who worked in psychiatric hospitals and a business consultant who helps organizations navigate change, he reveals how our educational systems, corporate structures, and even personal relationships have become organized around the illusion of control rather than the cultivation of wisdom. Through the lens of psychoanalysis and contemporary philosophy, João demonstrates how our inability to tolerate uncertainty is creating a society-wide pathology that distances us from our humanity. In our conversation, João challenges us to reconsider everything from how we raise children to how we structure organizations, arguing that our obsession with metrics, productivity, and predictable outcomes is creating “emotional bureaucrats” who have internalized corporate logic into their most intimate experiences. His vision for healing this syndrome involves embracing what he calls “useful uselessness” and rediscovering the ancient balance between suffering and growth that makes us fully human. In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to examine the hidden costs of our certainty-obsessed culture and to consider what it might mean to build organizations and societies that honor the full complexity of human experience. Resources Mentioned The Certainty Syndrome essay by João Sevilhano The Bullshit Economy essay by João Sevilhano Post Depth essay by João Sevilhano Byung-Chul Han’s philosophical works on modern burnout culture The Permanent Crisis book on the decline of humanities education On Freedom by Timothy Snyder Connect with João Sevilhano: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joaosevilhano/ Website: https://useful-uselessness.com/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| AI as Normal Technology: On superintelligence delusion, bogus claims and a humanistic AI future with Prof. Arvind Narayanan | 02 Sep 2025 | 00:46:40 | |
What if the race toward “superintelligence” is misguided and what does a more humanistic vision for AI adoption actually look like? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we dive deep into the intersection of artificial intelligence, culture, and human agency with Prof. Arvind Narayanan, a computer science professor at Princeton University whose work has fundamentally challenged how we think about AI’s role in society. Named on TIME’s inaugural list of 100 most influential people in AI, Arvind brings decades of research experience studying the gap between tech industry promises and real-world impacts. Arvind takes us beyond the hype and fear that dominates AI discourse, as we dive into his book “AI Snake Oil” (co-authored with Sayash Kapoor) and their latest essay titled “AI as Normal Technology” that draws powerful parallels to past general-purpose technologies like electricity and automobiles. He reveals why the term “artificial intelligence” itself creates dangerous confusion, masking critical differences between predictive AI systems that are already affecting the lives of millions of people – determining who gets bail, healthcare coverage, and job opportunities – and generative AI tools like ChatGPT that capture public attention. Through rigorous analysis of adoption patterns, organizational barriers, and historical societal precedent, Arvind demonstrates why superintelligence predictions fundamentally misunderstand both the nature of human intelligence and the complex realities of technological diffusion. In our conversation, Arvind challenges leaders to move beyond automation fantasies toward human-AI augmentation, explains why current AI benchmarks fail catastrophically at predicting real-world performance, and makes the case for why flexible, bottom-up innovation will determine which organizations thrive in the AI era. His perspective bridges computer science rigor with deep humanistic values, showing how thoughtful design and governance frameworks can help us navigate this transformation while keeping human agency at the center. This episode is a provocation to think more precisely about AI’s actual impacts, move beyond techno-optimism and techno-pessimism toward nuanced understanding, and focus on the practical frameworks needed to ensure this technology serves human flourishing. Resources Mentioned “AI Snake Oil” book by by Prof. Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor “AI is Normal Technology” essay by Prof. Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor Air Canada chatbot legal case as reported by The Guardian Everett Rogers’ work on technology adoption Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| AI Sovereignty & the Literacy Gap: Policy lessons from the frontlines with Jaxson Khan | 20 Aug 2025 | 00:50:29 | |
What if the biggest regret we’ll have in 10 years isn’t over-regulating AI, but failing to educate people about it? In this episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of AI policy, national sovereignty, and digital literacy with Jaxson Khan, a unique cross-sector leader who transitioned from startup founder to senior policy advisor for Canada’s Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry. From his home in Toronto, Jaxson shares hard-won insights from the frontlines of AI policy development, where he helped craft Canada’s approach to artificial intelligence across multiple critical areas. Jaxson takes us behind the scenes of government AI strategy, revealing why less than 25% of Canadians have any formal AI education despite the country being home to some of the technology’s foundational researchers. He explains Canada’s Sovereign AI Compute Strategy – a response to the brain drain that sees Canadian talent and capital flow south to Silicon Valley – and makes the case for treating AI infrastructure like a public utility. Through his current work helping nonprofits and corporations adopt AI, Jaxson demonstrates how the same technology reshaping global geopolitics can be leveraged for social good. Throughout our conversation, Jaxson challenges the notion that we need to choose between innovation and regulation, instead advocating for what he calls “meaningful consent” in privacy frameworks and emphasizing the critical importance of cultural sovereignty in AI development. His perspective bridges the technical, political, and deeply human aspects of our AI-powered future, showing how policy decisions made today will determine whether societies remain intact through this transformation. In this discussion, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to think beyond the hype and fear surrounding AI, focusing instead on the practical policy frameworks and educational foundations needed to ensure this powerful technology serves humanity’s highest aspirations. Resources Mentioned Canada’s Sovereign AI Compute Strategy “Bridging the Imagination Gap” Royal Bank of Canada white paper OECD data on international AI adoption patterns “AI is Normal Technology” by Prof. Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor “Genesis” by Kissinger, Schmidt, and Mundy Connect with Jaxson Khan: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaxson/?originalSubdomain=ca Website: https://jaxson.org/ Bio: Jaxson Khan is CEO of Aperture AI, a consulting firm helping institutions in the private, public, and social sectors with AI adoption and policy. Jaxson is a Senior Fellow at the Univers Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| The Model Can’t Relate: A poet’s rebellion inside the AI machine with Danielle McClune | 06 Aug 2025 | 00:41:28 | |
What if the people building AI are so caught up in the rush to market that they’ve forgotten to ask the most important question: what does this mean for humanity? In this refreshingly honest episode, we explore the human side of artificial intelligence with Danielle McClune, a writer and poet who has spent the last years at the epicenter of AI development at Microsoft, training conversational models and crafting the prompts that shape how AI communicates with millions of users worldwide. Danielle takes us behind the scenes of AI development with a perspective that’s rare in the tech industry – one grounded in creative writing, poetry, and a deep concern for preserving our humanity in an increasingly automated world. From her Substack “Soft Coded” writing that challenges the industry’s relentless optimism to her daily work training models to sound human while remembering they’re not, Danielle offers a critical yet nuanced view of where AI is headed and what we might be losing along the way. Throughout our conversation, Danielle reveals the absurdity of charging users for saying “please” and “thank you” to AI while encouraging human-like interaction, questions why we’re bolting chat interfaces onto existing software instead of reimagining human-computer interaction, and argues for maintaining the “uncanny valley” as a crucial reminder that we’re not talking to someone with a childhood. Her vision for AI as a public utility and her insights into what the technology might look like if women had led its development offer provocative alternatives to the current Silicon Valley narrative. In this conversation, we explore:
This episode is an invitation to slow down, ask harder questions, and remember that behind every AI interaction is a human being whose life might be changed – for better or worse – by the choices we make today. Resources Mentioned Soft Coded is Danielle’s excellent Substack Ruined by Design – Mike Monteiro’s book Design for the Real World – Victor Papanek Connect with Danielle Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-mcclune-2b35b95b/ Substack: https://softcoded.substack.com/ Bio Danielle McClune is a writer and poet embedded in the frontier of AI development at Microsoft, where she has spent the last two years training conversational models and crafting the prompts that shape how AI communicates with users worldwide. Originally from Wisconsin with a bachelor’s degree in creative writing and dreams of becoming poet laureate, Danielle found her way to Seattle and the tech world through UX writing. She later earned her MFA in Arts Leadership from Seattle University, focusing on arts nonprofits and public policy. Through her Substack writing, Danielle offers a rare critical perspective on AI development from inside Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Hollow Echoes: Why AI art will never have a soul with Sean Wolcott | 22 Apr 2026 | 00:41:10 | |
What happens to art when the systems designed to replicate it at mass can’t actually feel anything? In this conversation, Ben sits down with designer-turned-composer Sean Wolcott who draws a sharp lines between technology, knowledge and lived human experience – and makes the case that no amount of computation can bridge the gap. Sean has lived at the intersection of visual art, design, and music for over three decades. From early days making cassette tape artwork in high school to shaping Microsoft’s design language as a principal designer, he’s consistently followed his creative instincts wherever they led. A student of legendary designer Massimo Vignelli and a lifelong musician, Sean has spent the last several years building a recording studio in Everett, Washington: a 2,000-square-foot space modeled on the analog recording environments of the 1960s and ’70s that no longer exist. The result: 10 albums in three years, made with real musicians playing real instruments. The conversation gets into what Sean calls the “hall of mirrors”, a tech landscape obsessed with valuation bubbles and AI products being crammed into every corner of creative life. He’s blunt about what he sees: Spotify promoting artificial artists, AI tools that amount to “a pink meat paste of sonic okayness,” and a race to the bottom that insults the people who’ve spent their lives developing craft. But he’s not pessimistic. Sean argues there will always be a niche for work made by humans with care. At its core, this is a conversation about why lived experience is what makes art meaningful, why the process of making art can’t be separated from the art itself, and what it means to trust your own path in a world that keeps trying to streamline and automate it away. Resources & References Sean’s Studio: Soundview Analog Recorders Oliver Jeffers’ Dipped Painting Project Ben’s article: Authentically Human Connect with Sean Wolcott Website: https://www.seanwolcott.com/ Bio: Sean Wolcott is a Seattle-based composer, producer, and recording engineer whose music blends jazz, funk, soul, and soundtrack-inspired sounds. Drawing deep influence from 1970s aesthetics and classic film scores, his work merges cinematic storytelling with rich musicality — earning him a growing audience of listeners around the globe. Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||
| Human Conservationism: On improv, creative play and developing negative capability as leadership practices with Gabriella White | 20 May 2026 | 00:42:31 | |
What if the most important thing a leader can (re)learn now is to be silly and playful? In a world obsessed with optimization and yearning for certainty, Gabriella White makes the case for a radically different kind of readiness and skill building in the age of AI: one rooted in play, presence, and the courage to be ordinary. Gabriella is a trained actor turned interdisciplinary creative leader who calls herself a “human conservationist”. A deliberately playful provocation that names something many of us are feeling. Drawing on the German word/concept of “Torschlusspanik”, that gate-closing panic of time running out, she argues we’re in a moment of collective unease that deserves attention, not dismissal. Rather than prescribing answers, through her work she invites people into creative practices – improv theatre, somatic exercises, automatic writing, embodied learning – that build the capacity to sit with uncertainty instead of grasping for false certainties. Ben sits down with Gabriella to trace a line from the Industrial Revolution’s obsession with predictability to today’s AI moment and what she calls “a beyond-human” future. The conversation goes deep into what’s broken about how we train leaders (and people more generally speaking). Since the Industrial Revolution we’ve been trying to compare ourselves to our machines, and now with AI we’ve finally built the version of ourselves we could never become – and we worship it. Together, we explore why the creative process, particularly improv, acts as what one teacher calls “a gym for the heart” – stripping away self-consciousness, perfectionism, and competitiveness to reveal that we already have everything we need. Gabriella’s advice to young people captures the whole conversation in five words: don’t be afraid to be ordinary. Resources & References John Keats / Negative Capability — Concept from Keats’s 1817 letter to his brothers: “being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason” Fernando Pessoa, The Book of Disquiet Jacob Collier, multi-instrumentalist and Grammy-winning musician; referenced for his concept of “wiggliness” – the idea that people are born to wiggle but live in a straight-line world Christopher Heimann, improv teacher at RADA, founder of Spacecraft, based in Berlin; coined the phrase “a gym for the heart” for improv Maria Montessori — Referenced for the quote “The hands are the instrument of man’s intelligence” from The Absorbent Mind House of Beautiful Business, global network for the life-centered economy, Gabriella oversaw strategic development and experience design Improv Art Club, community series founded by Gabriella in Lisbon (2024) exploring improv theatre and blended arts Connect with Gabriella White Website: https://www.humanconservationist.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriella-white/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/poetsandthinkerspodcast/ Send your ideas, feedback and guest recommendations to ben@poetsandthinkers.co | |||