Physician Empowerment is an organization dedicated to transforming the lives of Canadian physicians through education in finance, practice management, wellness, and leadership.
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50 - Key Wisdom in Building a Financially Vibrant Practice with Dr. Sajid Syed
Episode 50
Friday, August 30, 2024 • Duration 40:25
Dr. Kevin Mailo welcomes dentist and implantology expert Dr. Sajid (Saj) Syed to the podcast to talk about practice building. Dr. Syed currently owns three dental practices in Ontario, all very successful, and he discusses his journey into dentistry and the business side of things with Dr. Mailo. As he says, “...the profession is 85% business and 15% actual dentistry” and emphasizes the importance of quality training to rely on and of not overthinking opportunities that arise.
Dr. Syed did not start his medical career wanting to be a dentist. He began with a desire to do cardiology. But once he entered dentistry at the suggestion of a friend’s father, he was hooked. Kevin prompts Saj to explain how he’s moved beyond simple dentistry into being a highly skilled technician specializing in full mouth reconstruction and implant dentistry and then becoming a successful business owner. Saj and Kevin discuss the necessity of not over-analyzing goals, having a very skilled team around you, and prioritizing customer service when they talk about how to approach entrepreneurship. Dr. Syed draws on his multiple-practice ownership experiences to impart sound advice and financial tips for any medical professional looking to branch into business ownership.
About Dr. Sajid (Saj) Syed:
After graduating from the University of Saskatchewan in 2003, Dr. Syed began practicing dentistry in Estevan, Saskatchewan, where he worked for two years before moving to Ontario.
In 2005, Dr. Syed purchased a practice in Dunnville, using his unique style and service improvements to maintain the quality care the Dunnville community has always enjoyed. Dr. Syed continued to expand his business, purchasing Pavillion Dentistry in 2009. He is dedicated to providing the residents of St. Catharines and surrounding communities with excellent dental care and personalized service.
In 2021, Dr. Syed purchased Lakeside Dental in Stoney Creek. He and his family now live in Stoney Creek, where they love being part of a smaller community.
Dr. Syed enjoys all aspects of dentistry, with a special interest in complex cases like dental implants, full mouth reconstruction, and orthodontics. He has a passion for performing life-changing treatments that increase a patient’s quality of life by providing them with a fully functional smile.
Recently, his dedication and hard work were recognized when he became a Diplomate of the American Board of Oral Implantology, the highest level of competency in implant dentistry. He is also an Associate Fellow and a Fellow of the American Academy of Implant Dentistry. Aside from being a big promoter of continuing education, Dr. Syed also mentors other general dentists wanting to enhance their clinical skills in implant dentistry.
Outside of work, Dr. Syed loves spending quality time with his wife and two children. He also enjoys staying fit and playing tennis.
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49 - Medical Entrepreneurship with Dr. Eileen Heo
Episode 49
Thursday, August 15, 2024 • Duration 26:58
Dr. Wing Lim hosts Dr. Eileen Heo in the first episode of a new series about medical entrepreneurship. Eileen graduated from the University of Toronto Medical School and then did a family medicine residency at UBC, across the country. Upon completing residency, she moved back to Toronto where she is in her first five years of real practice. Wing talks with her about why she chose not to open a clinic and instead went into being a hospitalist.
Dr. Eileen Heo and Dr. Wing Lim discuss what it is about working in a hospital that Eileen finds so compelling and they also address the family medicine crisis in Ontario, which is also more or less nationwide. Eileen honestly shares that fee increases are not keeping pace with inflation and the related difficulties of wealth building as a medical practitioner. This led her to her non-medical entrepreneurship in educating herself about financial well-being through studying investing, stock options, e-commerce, and managing personal finances. Wing and Eileen shed a lot of light on why understanding finance is such an important investment for any physician.
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41 - Staying inspired through community and shared experience
Episode 41
Monday, April 15, 2024 • Duration 26:59
Physician Empowerment co-founders Dr. Kevin Mailo and Dr. Wing Lim address why the events and masterclasses they hold are key to the foundations of Physician Empowerment overall. The promotion of wellness, health, and transformation in all areas of a physician’s life - mental, financial, leadership, practice - is the impetus behind everything they do. This translates into how they approach events and the focus of masterclasses.
As Wing Lim reminds listeners in this episode, Physician Empowerment was created to form a community and network for peer-to-peer empowerment. He reiterates the four foundational pillars of its existence: 1. Physician wellness, 2. Financial health, 3. Leadership development, and 4. Practice transformation. Those pillars factor into how they present learning in a conversational and community-friendly way. Kevin Mailo stresses that it isn’t just about being better in the future but having that better life now. Wing and Kevin address what they’ve learned from mentors, what they hope to impart to the community, how the masterclasses are designed not just to impart facts but shape a different way of thinking, and their hopes that everyone can share their journeys together.
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40 - Capital Gains in Real Estate Investments with Jason Pisesky
Episode 40
Saturday, March 30, 2024 • Duration 44:17
Physician Empowerment Masterclass Faculty Member and tax lawyer Jason Pisesky returns to the show to talk with Dr. Wing Lim about capital gains in real estate investments. Jason and Wing explore everything to do with real estate from tax to property depreciation and personal versus corporate real estate purchases.
Jason addresses how the Income Tax Act applies to real estate and the nuances involved with the PRE or Personal Residence Exemption. He explains some of the insights that apply to buying and flipping houses, up markets and down markets, and depreciable capital property. Personal versus corporate purchases, income versus capital gain, and active versus passive axis are discussed in broad terms, enough to give a clearer understanding of what Jason will be addressing in greater detail in future episodes and at the Physician Empowerment Live Conference in Toronto in May. The knowledge Jason shares is foundational and directly applicable to anyone with an investment mindset.
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About Jason Pisesky:
Jason is a tax lawyer, whose practice background is extensive and includes personal and corporate tax planning as well as litigation and dispute resolution. Whether you are scaling up your practice or winding it down, proper coordination between a tax lawyer and your accountant can ensure you're doing it right.
Jason is one of Physician Empowerment’s professional Masterclass Faculty members.
39 - You as the Most Important Investment with Dr. Michelle Jackman
Episode 39
Friday, March 15, 2024 • Duration 30:53
Dr. Kevin Mailo welcomes physician coach, Physician Empowerment masterclass student, and 2024 Physician Empowerment conference speaker Dr. Michelle Jackman to the show today. Physician Empowerment not only focuses on financial health but on the mental and emotional health of physicians as well. Dr. Jackman’s coaching aims at that need for emotional well-being and improves the mental health of physicians throughout their careers.
Dr. Michelle Jackman came to physician coaching during Covid, by asking questions about her own career path and satisfaction. She worked with Dr. April Elliott, an executive coach, and Dr. Nadeem Lalani, a physician coach, and the self-awareness she gained guided her into leaving the career path that wasn’t satisfying her and into coaching instead. She describes coaching as allowing us to prioritize ourselves and allowing us to make a commitment to ourselves and not just to our jobs and demands.
Dr. Mailo and Dr. Jackman discuss all aspects of physician coaching from acknowledging strengths and learning from accomplishments to evidence-based neuroscience and how our brains can be rewired to change our thought patterns. Michelle offers small group and one-on-one coaching and she describes the benefits of both to Kevin. She affirms that asking for help is not a sign of weakness but of strength and encourages physicians to seek out coaching if they need support.
Dr. Michelle Jackman will be at the Physician Empowerment Live conference in Toronto on May 25 and 26.
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About Dr. Michelle Jackman | physician coach, PhE masterclass student, 2024 PhE conference speaker:
Dr. Michelle Jackman is a practicing pediatrician, born and raised in Ontario. She grew up in the City of Kawartha Lakes and is a University of Toronto Alumni OT1. She completed three years of surgical residency at Queen’s University in Kingston and earned her FRCPC in pediatrics in 2008.
Dr. Jackman has been clinical lead at the Pediatric Centre for Wellness & Health at Alberta Children’s Hospital since it was established in 2012. Her clinical passion focuses on supporting children and youth at risk for obesity through this multi-disciplinary program. Her clinical expertise is in supporting children and youth with mental health and metabolic and mechanical co-morbidities of obesity to achieve their best health.
38 - The Transformative Power of Coaching with Dr. Angie Hong
Episode 38
Wednesday, February 28, 2024 • Duration 28:50
Dr. Kevin Mailo welcomes Toronto-based family physician and obesity medicine practitioner Dr. Angie Hong to the podcast. Dr. Hong has been involved in coaching for a few years now and joins Dr. Mailo to talk about the differences between coaching, mentoring and therapy and the specific value of coaching.
Dr. Angie Hong stumbled into coaching when she accidentally joined the wrong course at the University of Toronto and found herself in Solution Focused Coaching instead of Solution Focused Therapy. She stayed in the course and “fell in love with coaching”. Angie describes the enjoyment she gets out of helping a client reach a goal that sometimes isn’t even their original goal but something born out of self-discovery.
Dr. Mailo and Dr. Hong discuss how physicians specifically find Angie and the challenges that drive them to seek guidance. Angie describes the feelings of emotional burnout and exhaustion that coaching can be effective in assisting and preventing. The journey of a physician drives towards burnout in many cases and Angie believes that engaging with coaching earlier, in medical school even, can help combat the issues that compound later. Dr. Angie Hong will be at the Physician Empowerment Live conference in Toronto on May 25 and 26.
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About Dr. Angie Hong:
Dr. Hong has been a family doctor for over 20 years and has focused on metabolic health and disease for almost a decade. She is a fellow of the CCFP and a diplomate of the American Board of Obesity Medicine, one of the first family doctors in Ontario to earn this credential.
Dr. Hong is also an International Coaching Federation Coach, a body recognized globally as the gold standard of professional coaching. In addition, she is a graduate of the University of Toronto Brief Coaching program and was mentored by world-renowned researcher and coach Dr. Haesun Moon.
For the past seven years, Dr. Hong has had the privilege of teaching coaches and healthcare providers throughout North America at various schools and organizations, including Obesity Canada, CBT Canada, the University of Alberta, and the University of Toronto, among others.
37 - Tax Benefits of Family Trusts, with Masterclass Faculty Member Jason Pisesky
Episode 37
Thursday, February 15, 2024 • Duration 36:33
Dr. Wing Lim welcomes Physician Empowerment Masterclass Faculty Member and tax lawyer Jason Pisesky back to the show. Jason talks all about trusts from a tax perspective. He explains not only the history of how trusts came to be but also how they are defined today and how they work, offering knowledgeable insights into the complex topic.
Jason explores the tax and non-tax benefits of family trusts, detailing the tax advantage of the multiplication of the capital gains deduction. He also explains the lifespan of a trust, the beneficiaries, how income splitting factors into a trust, and how family trusts are useful in facilitating the movement of assets from one company to another in a tax-deferred way. The topic of family trusts is a dense and layered one but the information Jason provides here works as a good base of knowledge. This information can then be further explored in a Masterclass.
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About Jason Pisesky:
Jason is a tax lawyer, whose practice background is extensive and includes personal and corporate tax planning as well as litigation and dispute resolution. Whether you are scaling up your practice or winding it down, proper coordination between a tax lawyer and your accountant can ensure you're doing it right.
Jason is one of Physician Empowerment’s professional Masterclass Faculty members.
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36 - Individual Pension Plans with Nick Giovannetti
Episode 36
Tuesday, January 30, 2024 • Duration 42:18
Dr. Wing Lim hosts Physician Empowerment Masterclass Faculty Member and Certified Financial Planner Nick Giovannetti on the show today. Wing and Nick talk about Individual Pension Plans, or IPPs, breaking down how they work, who qualifies, and what sorts of benefits they provide for physicians. Nick has a wealth of knowledge about CPPs, RRSPs, and IPPs that he shares in this episode.
Nick Giovannetti explains that IPPs are not a new financial tool, they’ve been around for over thirty years in Canada. But RRSPs have been around longer and are less complicated than IPPs to administer. There are more complex forms and filings to fill out for the CRA where IPPs are concerned and Nick says the lack of awareness about IPPs and the fear associated with the complexity prevents some accountants and planners from informing their clients about the IPP benefits. So Wing and Nick dive into exactly what an IPP is and how you can best benefit from it. They cover everything from contribution limits and family member beneficiaries to buyback and defined contribution versus defined benefit pension plans. This episode gives an overview of why Individual Pension Plans are worth exploring.
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About Nick Giovannetti:
Nick is a Certified Financial Planner® with a fully Integrated Wealth Planning Team. His approach to financial planning centers around a deep understanding of clients' goals and objectives, fostering long-term relationships built on trust and transparency.
Nick is one of Physician Empowerment’s professional Masterclass Faculty members.
Doctors Kevin Mailo and Wing Lim join forces to talk about the “d word” that isn’t talked about enough: delegation. They lead a discussion explaining why we need to move away from assuming we know everything there is to know and instead embrace the expertise of others to achieve the best results. And how delegation is the key.
Dr. Mailo and Dr. Lim break down what can and can’t be delegated out. There are crucial tasks that only we can do and must continue doing, but there are plenty of other tasks we don’t need to be spending our personal resources on tending to. They talk about the difference between delegation and abdication because very different results emerge from adhering to the wrong one. Dr. Wing Lim shares a checklist on how to do delegation the best way, with clear instructions and expectations keeping everyone informed on their part of the equation. This is an episode that’s key to freeing up our time by ensuring that we do only those tasks which require us and that we responsibly delegate the tasks that don’t need our direct involvement.
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About Dr. Kevin Mailo:
Kevin is an emergency physician based out of Edmonton, Alberta. He is known for his highly engaging teaching style that breaks down complex topics into memorable experiences.
Kevin cares deeply about the long-term wellness of the medical profession and wants to see physicians and their families succeed personally and financially.
About Dr. Wing Lim:
Apart from his clinical & teaching roles, Wing has extensive experience in Practice Management and Business Development.
He is passionate about sharing his extensive knowledge & experience (both clinical & business) with others in various settings, from his clinic mentoring younger colleagues, to churches, senior groups, ethnic functions, radio broadcasts, retreats, seminars, and national conferences.
In this insightful episode, Dr. Kevin Mailo and Dr. Wing Lim engage in a profound conversation about self-control in time management. The discussion unfolds with a reflection on the evolution of time management concepts from one-dimensional to multi-dimensional approaches.
Dr. Wing Lim introduces the audience to the Franklin Covey time management matrix, emphasizing the importance of not just handling urgent tasks but also allocating time to nonurgent yet crucial activities. He delves into the concept of significance, urging listeners to consider the long-term impact and purpose behind their actions.
The episode further explores the notion of creating more time tomorrow by investing time today. Dr. Wing Lim introduces the concept of a "permission funnel," comprising permissions to eliminate, automate, delegate, procrastinate strategically, and concentrate on essential tasks. The episode concludes with a powerful reminder of the preciousness of time and a preview of future discussions, including an upcoming episode on delegation—a key component of effective time management. Overall, the conversation serves as a guiding light for physicians looking to regain control of their time and live a more purposeful and fulfilling life.
About Dr. Wing Lim
In 1993, Dr. Wing Lim embarked on his journey as a family physician, facing immense challenges in his first year. Despite putting in 100-hour workweeks, financial struggles, a receptionist issue, and the threat of eviction were formidable obstacles. Rather than retreating, Dr. Lim embraced these challenges, teaching himself Practice Management and transforming his approach.
This resilience and newfound expertise turned his practice from that of a struggling "lone wolf" to the founder of one of Alberta's largest medical clinics. Dr. Wing Lim's story is a testament to overcoming adversity, highlighting the transformative power of learning and adaptation in the dynamic landscape of healthcare.
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She recently completed her executive coaching certification and coaching mastery program through Erickson International and is passionate about bringing coaching into the medical field to help her colleagues navigate challenges, excel in their professions and increase their fulfillment in all aspects of their lives.
Michelle lives in Calgary with her husband and daughter. She enjoys making her daughter laugh and being out in nature and mountains on bikes, skis and horses.
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Dr. Hong lives in Toronto with her husband, three teenage daughters, and her dog Hugo. Her downtime is spent with family and friends and laughing at dog memes. However, she can usually be found taking another course to increase her skills and knowledge.
Dr. Hong’s passion for lifelong learning is driven by her commitment to providing the highest level of care and service to her patients and clients.
Learn more about Dr. Hong's services and contact her via her website at AngieHongMD.com
Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:00:01] Hi, I'm Doctor Kevin Mailo, one of the co-hosts of the Physician Empowerment podcast. At Physician Empowerment we're dedicated to improving the lives of Canadian physicians personally, professionally, and financially. If you're loving what you're listening to, let us know! We always want to hear your feedback. Connect with us. If you want to go further, we've got outstanding programing both in person and online so look us up. But regardless, we hope you really enjoy this episode.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:00:35] Hi everyone, so glad to have you out tonight for another webinar featuring the topic of IPPs, Individualized Pension Plans, which were in fact established by the federal government back in the 90s. They were not very well known until last 5 or 10 years when they've started to take off. But there are a lot of ins and outs to using these properly, and they have certain advantages over RRSPs that incorporated professionals really need to be taking a close look at. So to go on this deep dive, well, I shouldn't say it's that deep a dive, the deep dive is going to come with the masterclass. So if anybody's interested in that, do reach out to me and we'd be happy to talk further about having you join the masterclass, because this topic is dense. So Wing is going to take us through it tonight, and he's going to do it with one of our masterclass faculty, Nick Giovannetti. And Nick is an Integrated Wealth Planning Specialist, holds a lot of designations, and he and our other masterclass faculty member, Simon Wong, have done a ton of outstanding teaching on topics like this. Because you want to know what it is you're you're using when it comes to wealth creation and advanced tax planning. That's where these topics are so, so powerful to cover, like we're going to do. So again, if you have questions, you're interested, reach out to us. But let me take it from there, Wing, and hand it off to you. If you want to go ahead and introduce Nick to everybody.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:02:08] Sure. So good to see everybody and hear everybody's voices later. And yeah, this is very exciting episode in December this year. And we thought we'll wrap up the year by something that is really important. And that's about the RRSP, IPP, and the pension world. And like we said in the intro on social media, we're going to unpack this mystery box. So our guest today for our fireside chat is Nick. And Nick has a lot of designations. And he's actually also a multi-talented Renaissance man, I guess, he was previously an international recording artist. You might want to explore that on the different dimension of him. And we just talked about one of his designation is about cash flow personalities. Right? And we'll probably do an episode on that, definitely will be a lot of fun. But today we're going to talk about this project, sorry, this platform. There's RRSP that everybody probably heard about and some people do RRSP, some people don't believe in RRSP. Right. But then there's IPP pension world. So Nick, maybe you should walk us through, when we talk about this, you said you got to bring in CPP too, so may as well bring in CPP, RRSP, IPP. So walk us through a little bit of a history lesson and how it's pertaining to incorporated professionals.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:03:33] For sure, yeah, thanks for having me, everyone. Like Kevin had mentioned, you know, the Individual Pension Plan, it's not a new financial tool. It's actually been around for over 30 years here in Canada. And as we know, the RRSP or the Registered Retirement Savings Plan has has been around even longer than that. It's been around since the 50s, and it was actually something introduced by the Canadian Medical Association because physicians even back then, yeah, physicians even back then were saying--
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:04:02] -- one for us--
Nick Giovannetti: [00:04:04] -- hey, we need a retirement vehicle. We need something tax sheltered. They'd done a lot of research back then, and to them it made sense to say, hey, where can I put money now, get some tax relief today, invest and grow that pot of money in a tax sheltered environment? And then I can strategically, you know, pull it out in the future and give myself predictable and secure income, something that I can count on in the future. So that's really what happened in the early 90s, was that small/medium business owners, they wanted pension plans. You know, a lot of people look at especially medical professionals around the hospital, how many of your coworkers and colleagues in the hospital have pension plans? And that's something that I think a lot of physicians look at and say, what if I could have that? What if I could even just contact the Healthcare of Ontario or OMERS or Teachers Pension and say, hey, can I just contribute to this? Can I become a plan member? And then I can also have a defined benefit pension in the future.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:05:07] So physicians are not alone. Business owners have been wanting that, self-employed people have been wanting that. So in the early 90s, the first ever one of one, so one person to one company pension plan was allowed by the Income Tax Act. And it's called an Individual Pension Plan. So you could be one business owner, have one pension plan, and you're the only plan member, but you can take advantage of all of the rules that all the other pension plans in Canada follow. So everything that everyone is very fond of, federal government workers, teachers, firefighters, police, you can benefit from those same retirement savings rules. So from contribution limits to tax deductions to predictable guaranteed income in the future, you can create your own. And it's been around a long time. So if you're a physician that is incorporated, you should really look at this as part of your overall planning.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:06:05] So how does it compare to RRSP that everybody knows?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:06:09] So there's a few key takeaways or few key differences and one would be that the RRSP happens on a personal level, and the Individual Pension Plan happens on a corporate level. So what I mean by that is if you want to participate in an RRSP, you're going to have to pull money out of your corporation, pay some tax, and then you're going to have to then contribute to an RRSP with your after tax personal income, and then hopefully get a tax refund on the personal side. Now the RRSP is also limited to a certain amount of contribution room, so I'll touch on that in a second. The Individual Pension Plan side, it works a little bit differently. So you can actually earn money to your corporation and if you have a pension plan, the corporation can right away save that money into a pension before any tax has ever happened on those dollars. Okay, so that's one of the big key advantages. So then the second one I touched on was contribution room. So Registered Retirement Savings Plans are capped to 18% of your salary that you pay yourself or bonus, so it's got to be salary or bonus, on the personal level, defined benefit pension plans can get as high as 30% of salary, which is a big difference. We get into, you know, a difference of 30 grand a year to 50 grand a year when it comes to maximum savings room. And on the pension side, because the government really treats pension plans favorably, you have a lot of additional ways you can put money in a pension plan. So I'll touch on a few of those.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:07:46] First one is, the government cares about what the rate of return in an Individual Pension Plan is, and what they want to see is a minimum 7.5% rate of return and a maximum ceiling of it's about 9.375. They want to see pension plans grow in that window, averaging every three years. And if your pension is not growing at that rate, you're actually allowed to put in more money. When we look at the RRSP, nobody cares if your RRSP grows at 7.5%. You care, but the Government of Canada is not going to let you put more money in if your investments are not performing well enough. So you got a fail safe there. And you can also do strategies like dry powder hedging, where you purposely underperform your investments so that you can put in more money. So there's some unique strategies there. I would say another one is, defined benefit pension plans your income is based on a formula. So you know, very predictably, what are you going to have as an income stream in retirement, whereas your RRSP, it's totally up to you how you want to pull the money out. Some people pull out a lot quickly, some people don't pull out enough, some people just do the minimum that the government wants to see you pull out. So there's a lot of room for error on the RRSP side, where the Individual Pension Plan can be more predictable and easier to plan around because it's been created for you by a formula. Now there's a few different, Wing, that we could dive into. But I'll punt it back to you and we'll see where we go.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:09:28] So I guess it's a good time to talk about these formulas. Who writes these formulas? Who dictates these formulas?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:09:36] It's a great question. So it's a legal framework that goes back to when the first Income Tax Act was created. Your pension plan could be structured in a way so that you're going to have, you know, a flat benefit. So it might be I paid myself this much salary, I worked for my company this many years, I'm this certain age, so I get a flat benefit based on a formula of a couple factors like that. There's also another factor which could be career average earnings. So it doesn't matter if you paid yourself lower salary in the beginning and then you upped it later on, you know your pension could be calculated on an average. You could also do it so that it's a final or best average earnings. Or a percentage of contributions. So these formulas, when you set up and register your Individual Pension Plan, the CRA actually has a registration form. And on the form you're going to check off these boxes of how do you want that formula to be identified. And it's in the Income Tax Act as to how that calculation will be made.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:10:41] Right. So this is way more complicated than RRSP. Right? So maybe we could just maybe help, maybe I will use a layman's way to bring everybody on the same page. So basically if you work for a big firm you have a nice pension plan. Right? And the employer and the employee are different people. But now with this IPP platform, they allow professionals or business owners to actually be the same person, that the employer/employee is the same entity, well same person, right, different entities. But to ensure that the benefactor of the pension plan gets so much dollar sometimes guaranteed and so that's why they have these elaborate formula. Right? But then who is funding it, well in our case it's the PC. So if you come to our masterclass, the whole series is called Fat PC Skinny, right? So you want to have a fat PC but you want a skinny me, but not a starving me, right? So you definitely want the money to come out, especially in the golden years, right? That you've done your hard work. And so you want the pension to come. And now is a way to efficiently fund this piggy bank called IPP. Right? And so that's why there's a lot more calculation than RRSP. So let's look at, yeah there's some difference. What about some similarity? At age, what, 71 both plans have to kind of be put an end to it. Can you elaborate on that, Nick?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:12:11] For sure, yeah. So the similarity there is that the government of Canada, so the Income Tax Act wants you to have to start pulling money out of either an RRSP or your pension plan by age 71. You can, in an RRSP, decide to pull it out earlier, and you can do so with a pension plan as well. Some pensioners I've seen start an IPP and actually turn on their pension income as early as their mid 40s. So you have a lot of flexibility there as to when you want to start drawing the money out of these accounts. But traditional retirement age in Canada is 65, and you can delay that to 71 if you want to push it off as far as possible.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:12:55] So with IPP, you still have to do the like the RIFF and all that, right? Like there's to pull the money out there's no difference whether you have RRSP, IPP. Is there a difference the way that you pull the money out past 71?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:13:07] Yeah, that's a great question. So with an RRSP it gets converted to, you mentioned it, it's called a RIFF. It turns into a Registered Retirement Income Fund. And the government will have a calculation as to how much you have to pull out each year as you age. And you're going to be doing that through wherever it is, your money managers, your trading, what have you. You have to pull out that minimum, but you could ultimately pull out whatever you want. With an Individual Pension Plan, you actually have three different options to how you want to pull the money out. So the first option is whoever's managing your Individual Pension Plan, you're going to just instruct them and sign the form that I'm retiring from my corporation and they will ask you, how do you want to pull out the money? Do you want monthly installments based on your defined benefit formula, or do you want a one year, once a year, lump sum, boom here's my payment? So that's the first way you could. So the money manager continues managing your money. Same with a RIFF and you're just getting your distributions. Okay? The second way, if you don't want any market risk, you can actually take your defined benefit pension that you save for yourself and you could go to a life insurance company and you could actually buy something called a copycat annuity.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:14:24] So these are available even now for teachers, firefighters, police officers, doesn't matter. If you have a defined benefit pension, you can go to an insurance company and buy something called a copycat annuity. Now the word copycat means whatever your income you are guaranteed to have, so the distribution let's just say it was 200 grand a year of pension income, the annuity will guarantee you that paycheck every year for a certain chunk of whatever your investments were in that defined benefit plan. And then depending on interest rates and annuity rates, you might actually have a little extra so you'll get paid a bit of cash and you'll have this guaranteed income the rest of your life. Now, the third way is you could shut your Individual Pension Plan down entirely and go right back to RRSPs. So we call that a wind up. So you could shut it all down back to RRSPs or into a RIFF, and you're going to have a certain amount of your pension that's allowed to transfer. So it's a tax free transfer back to the old way. But generally speaking, you will have a chunk of money that is extra that can't transfer back to an RRSP. So you'd have to take that as an income the year you decided to do a wind up. But you actually have three different ways that you could collect.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:15:47] Right. Okay. So you got more choices, more diversity, right? More versatility. That's great. Let's talk about defined benefit versus defined contribution: DB versus DC. Because as physicians we haven't heard a lot about it, we just know that most people nowadays have a defined contribution plan meaning that the company would match you. Right.? Some of you may, listeners, may be working for a big hospital. You might be in a pension plan already. So defined contribution meaning that they define how much you contribute. They did not define how much you get, which is the benefit. And way back, there's every plan is a DB plan and now who's left with these juicy DB plans indexed with inflation? Well, our Premier, our Prime Minister, a lot of politicians do, but most corporate owners they only define a contribution not define benefit. So let's talk about DB and DC in the IPP world.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:16:46] For sure, yeah. So a defined contribution pension, I think you already touched on it, Wing, the only thing defined is the amount you can contribute. And it's actually the same contribution amount to that of an RRSP which is 18% of your salary up to the maximum allowable each year. So you can put in 18% of your salary. And then when you retire, it generally just turns into a RIFF. So same as RRSPs, right? So you're going to have the choice of taking out the minimum that RIFF allows or as much as you want, but whatever you pull out of that is going to be taxable income when you pull it out. So there's nothing really more predictable about a defined contribution pension than that of an RRSP. It's just that defined contribution pensions you can contribute through your corporation, whereas an RRSP you contribute personally. Now defined benefit pension, what's defined is your benefit, the predictable guaranteed income that you're going to receive for the rest of your life. And Wing touched on it, it could be indexed to inflation, meaning that if the cost of living goes up 3%, then your pension distributions next year will go up 3%, right? That just happened with Canada Pension Plan. Everybody got a 6.5% bump to their income because inflation changed in Canada. It was a big bump to the cost of living. So everybody collecting those defined benefit Canada pension plan cheques got a nice bump. So defined benefits are formula based on what you're going to receive in the future. Defined contributions are really a corporate version of an RRSP.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:18:30] I guess some people have a fear that if they're stuck in a DB thing, that they, if they don't have a good year, they can't contribute. Right? But you say that it's just like the RRSP, right? And if there's a year, let's say you fallen sick or you had a bad year, you took a sabbatical, and you cannot contribute that much into the IPP, would it collapse?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:18:52] That's a really great question. So it was, I believe it was the end of 2020 where if you're a connected person to your IPP, meaning I own 10% or more of the shares of the company that is sponsoring the IPP, so in most cases for a physician, it'll be your MPC sponsoring the company, you own all the shares, or hopefully you own at least more than 10%. You're what's called a connected person. You don't actually have to contribute to your IPP at all because you're a connected person to that pension. You own majority share of the company sponsoring it, or at least 10% of it. Your family members are also connected. So if you added a spouse or children, you don't have to contribute for them either. So a lot of the fear, Wing, of having to contribute to an IPP to top it up or boost it up, if you go on sabbatical you're behind, maybe you don't have the cash flow that year, a lot of those fears are now gone. If you were to have an IPP set up and you didn't own the company and somebody set that up for you, they would be liable to fund it the same way that if you worked for the hospital, teacher, firefighter, whatever, they have to top it up, right, General Motors, big union companies, they have to top up their pensions. So you have some flexibility as the owner.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:20:08] Right. And for the years that you didn't contribute full amount, then there is buyback or catch up. Right? There's this feature?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:20:16] There is, yeah. So even if you've been incorporated let's say for 15 years and you've never had an IPP and you decide to open an IPP right now, they can do a calculation and they look at pension adjustments, your RRSP room, your your current RRSP balance, how much you paid yourself in the past and they can go back in time and say, okay, Doctor Lim, you have a catch up of 300,000 just for setting up a pension and never paying yourself salary again, but you just have, you still currently have 300 grand of room. And then you could pay yourself a salary that year, have a percentage of salary and carry forward. So you do have the ability to buy back, but it will be offset if you took care of some, if you were contributing to RRSPs. because they're going to do a pension adjustment to offset what did you put in RRSPs? What were your unused room? How well did the RRSP perform? And then that will work into the calculation of the buyback.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:21:17] So if you have had an RRSP and you're contemplating starting IPP, so what happens to the RRSP once you start the IPP?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:21:25] So if you want to participate in the buyback, then they're going to use your RRSP balance as part of the calculation. And what will happen is, high level example, when you have 500 grand to buy back but based on the pension adjustment calculation, you have to take 250 grand from your RRSP, and it's called a qualifying transfer, it's tax free, you have to move 250 grand from your RRSP over to your pension, and then it would allow you 250 grand room to contribute. The rest of your RRSP, whatever's over and above that minimum transfer, you could leave it external, leave it as an RRSP, or you could bring it into your pension under a secondary account known as an additional voluntary contribution account.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:22:15] Right. So there's a lot of flexibility. And then there are certain age related benefits, right? With the room, contribution room versus RRSP. So when does the gap start to widen big enough to be meaningful?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:22:30] Yeah. So, defined benefit pension plans, the formula of the matching of the salary is about 12.5% of your salary when you're 18 years old for a defined benefit plan. And RRSPs are 18%, and defined contribution plans are 18%. But by the time you're 38, the defined benefit matching curve has caught up to the 18% already. It's a little over 18% by the time you're 38. And then from the age of 38 all the way to 71, it gets as high as almost 30% of salary. So really, you'll see a lot of people heavily look at Individual Pension Plans if they're going to do the defined benefit schedule. A lot of people will heavily look at it when they reach 40.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:23:18] Right? So 40 is kind of the turning point.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:23:21] The turning point for most, unless they have one of the combination registrations, so their pension has both types. You can have it where you have both types, a defined contribution and defined benefit. So if you registered it that way, a lot of those professionals will just start whenever they start, because you don't lose contribution room and you can just convert it over whenever it makes sense.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:23:43] Right. So you talk about a lot of these calculations that have to be done right. And if it is not, I heard that there's very stiff penalty from CRA. Right? And so who does all this, all these calculations?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:23:59] Yeah. So when you have a pension plan it's really important to have a good team. So as part of that team you need actuaries. There's got to be an actuary or a team of actuaries that's calculating all the math behind these complex pension calculations. And there's a lot of them out there, lots of different companies doing that. So it's important that's kind of step one. You could go a step further and make sure on that team you have pension lawyers. And it's good to have pension lawyers because they can also help with a lot more of the compliance factor of your pension plan, because you will be registering it with CRA as Doctor Wing Lim pension plan, registered pension plan. So it's important to have a team that is familiar with pensions, they're able to help you manage the non-investment related factors, and then you'll have an investment team that takes care of the money. And hopefully you have an accountant and a planner that help you with the distribution and the planning side.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:24:56] So the beneficiary of these plans, so it could be me, the doctor, the spouse. What about kids?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:25:02] Yeah. So you you can, you can absolutely name your children as beneficiaries, and you can even add children to an Individual Pension Plan if they work at all or have any level of employment with your corporation.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:25:17] So if they're employed, not a dividend, not T5, but they have to be T4 as well, right?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:25:23] That's right, yeah.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:25:24] Right. Then they could be part of the IPP itself. But for the beneficiary let's say after you turn 71, right, you want to take money out. So kids probably well grown up by then, so they don't, do they have to be employed by to get the benefit, they don't have to be, right?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:25:40] So if they, if you wanted to make them a beneficiary so if you passed away where would all these assets go, no, they don't have to work for your company to be a beneficiary. But if they wanted to be a plan member because you're looking for some different intergenerational wealth benefits, then at some point they would have to have an employee relationship with your company. I've seen the employment income as low as $3,500. I've seen some people hire their kids to do admin and social media work. Maybe they pay them 10, 15 grand for that. Whatever you do, they just have to be paid at least minimum wage for whatever job it is that they're doing. And they could be added with just one year of service.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:26:23] One year of service. And this applies not just to kids, but to the spouse as well. Right?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:26:28] 100%. Yeah. So a lot of professionals and business owners will find work for their spouse to do, and then they can add their spouse to their pension plan, and the company can contribute to that spouse's pension plan. Right? Because most likely a pension plan contribution room will be quite a bit higher than that of an RRSP.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:26:49] Right. Yeah. And so this, we talked about TOSI in other episodes. Right? Test on, Tax On Split Income. So it's pretty harsh, but IPP is just one really smart, astute and legal way that you can do the income splitting, especially in the latter days, when you're drawing money out.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:27:06] Exactly. Yeah. It's a very black and white way to get money into your spouse's hands by paying them legitimate T4 income, so salary or bonus, and saving for their retirement. And in the future you mentioned pension plans you can do income splitting on the income that comes out of it. So these are very CRA-approved registered pension plans that there's a lot of peace of mind knowing that that part of your strategy is ironclad.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:27:37] Right. And so who are not eligible for IPPs?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:27:41] So those that wouldn't be eligible are those that are paying themselves out of their corporation dividends or capital gains. So if you're doing pipelining, capital gains stripping, and that's your only source of income out of the company, or non-eligible dividend, then those would not qualify for pension contributions.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:28:02] So if you have done T5 all along, right, and then you have never given yourself T4, then there is no room. Is that true?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:28:10] So that means you won't have any buyback room. That's correct. Now you could change today. So you could say, because pensions are based on current year, RRSP contributions are based on previous year income, so you could decide in the year I'm going to pay myself salary this year and open a pension that year and participate in the pension that year.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:28:31] What about if you're not incorporated? If you don't have a PC, you're sole proprietor. Can you do IPP?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:28:37] No. So you do need to have a corporation. Now another corporation could do an IPP for you. So if you worked for another clinic and they were employing you, they could register one for you, but you would now be a non-connected person. So they would have to fund that pension plan. And a lot of employers wouldn't do that because of the risk.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:28:58] Right. Yeah. I want to point this out because there are always exceptions to the rule. Right? And so that's what because some of our listeners, they, the first five years of practice, they haven't even incorporated yet, or they say the accountants told them there's really no reason if you spend it all, then you don't need a PC. And I have a colleague, 30 years after they started the practice, the accountant still says no need for PCs, and all these benefits, these powerful strategies, don't apply to them. Right? Or my personal story, my accountant way back said, no, don't believe in T4, only give yourself T5. So the first 20 years of my practice I only got T5, zero T4. So by the time I knew about IPP, my buyback is really small amount, right? And I wish I knew, right, I wish I knew earlier. And so that's why for people who are in the early or mid part of your career, this is something to plan.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:29:52] Yeah. And I've heard all kinds of stories. And you bring up a good point because your accountant didn't only talk you out of being able to participate in your own IPP, but your accountant also doing what they did for you there, they talked you out of participating in Canada Pension Plan, because when you make the decision not to pay T4 income to open an IPP or an RRSP, you're also shutting yourself down from getting any Canada Pension Plan.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:30:20] Now this is really interesting because a lot of accounting accountants of my vintage, right, 30 years ago, but even newer ones I'm shocked to hear as they now you invest better than CPP. Do you want to make a comment on CPP?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:30:36] Yeah, I mean, I've heard all kinds of very competent investors think that they can outperform Canada Pension Plan. Um, Canada Pension Plan is probably one of the best run pension plans in the entire world. And in order for you to compete with that, we could dive into that maybe in the masterclass or in another session, but if we wanted to calculate what you would have to earn, consistently guaranteed every year from now all the way till you pass away, to be able to recreate what Canada Pension Plan created for 6 to 7 grand a year worth of savings, it would be a very, very difficult thing for anybody to do, even an astute investor.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:31:19] Right. So CPP is a good thing. Right? And so when you offer RRSP and IPP, you also offer CPP right?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:31:26] You do by default, you get two pensions.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:31:28] Yeah. Now, so then let's go back further about this accountant thing. And I'm not trying to belittle or badmouth any accountants. But a lot of accountants and advisors are so against IPP or so ignorant about IPP. Why is that?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:31:46] That's such a great question. And from what I've come across, a lot of it is lack of awareness and fear. Or they're looking for something easy because it's easier for an accountant to pay a dividend. Right? There's a little more work involved if you pay T4 and you got to remit tax at source, they got to make sure they account for Canada Pension Plan, they got to do your pension adjustments, like there's reasons why it simplifies their life. And I've actually heard an accountant one time say to a physician, I was on this joint call, I don't mind paying you salary but I'm going to have to download all that work to you, Mr. and Mrs. Physician. It was the most unbelievable comment I'd ever heard. And sure enough, they asked me after the call, can you help introduce me to an accountant that would do this work for me? So it's not that big of a deal. A lot of it is very simplified. They do it for a lot of other business owners, because a lot of other business owners do have IPPs, so they have to do the salary.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:32:48] I'm just saying that this is a few years ago, 2020 before Covid, right? I read some stats that of all the eligible people in Canada for IPP, which is like millions, only 2% were implemented, right? The market penetration is like 2%. That's abhorring right?
Nick Giovannetti: [00:33:08] Yeah. And again, a lot of that is it's lack of awareness and fear. So I've seen, I've seen what kind of benefit an accountant that is forward thinking and stays on the top of their game with pension plans, how well their clients have done and they stand out from the rest. And that's probably some of the 2%, because why would a business owner know to ask for an Individual Pension Plan if it didn't come from their accountant or their planner? And a lot of financial planners know very little to nothing about Individual Pension Plans. And where I say the fear comes from is because there is filings with CRA that need to be done. It's either done by your administration team or your planner or your accountant. And if they screw up, I've seen people wait years to get their pensions off the ground, and there's all this compliance problems and they're just not doing it properly. So again, if you're working with a team that's familiar, this stuff is like cakewalk, right? They do these things in their sleep and you get a lot of benefit. Why so many are afraid is because it is complex. It's more advanced planning. And just not everybody's prepared for that.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:34:17] So don't just find somebody that would just wing it, just by my name. This is not a place for somebody to wing it. This is complicated stuff. It has to be done properly.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:34:28] Yeah. I've seen the big banks steer away from things that are complicated because they can't scale. So why do they push RRSPs even? It's because it's easy. You just sit with them, you meet for five minutes, you sign a form, boom. You got an RRSP, right? That's scalable. That's easy for them to administer. So even the big banks have participated in why only 2% of the eligible population are doing it because a lot of people deal with the bank.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:34:59] Exactly. Now. So this is awesome, Nick. Final question topic is messy one. Pension world. So if we can now do our own pension plan, what about different badging together like MEPs of the world? Even our medical associations are tapping into this thing. Can you just give us a quick overview of what that is about? It's a very mysterious world.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:35:23] Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different pension types out there. There's Individual Pension Plans, there's Multi-Employer Pension Plans, there's Joint Employer Sponsored Pension Plans, there's Specified Multi-Employer Pension Plans. So pension plans are a complex world. They're actually an entirely different section of the Income Tax Act than that of the RRSP. It's got its own section because there's so much complexity of how you can put these together. And I'm sure you'll see if you dig into this world, there's so many different ones out there. And the biggest thing that I find is that a lot of pension plans have been rolled out, and they may claim to be something that sounds great and polished, but until you know the underlying way it was registered and all those little details of how much do I contribute, does my company sponsor it or do you sponsor it? Who has control? What if I don't like how you're managing it? Can I take it and go somewhere else? Can I add my kids to this plan? So there's so many things there. What about indexing, right? What happens if there's a market correction? So there's so many things out there that you do need to make sure you're aware of. And one thing I find that most business owners and professionals want is flexibility and control. And the IPP generally checks off both those boxes.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:36:52] Right. Because there are talks, right, because we're busy professionals just nose down, bum up, working to our bones. And so we don't have time to think about, oh, if some big brothers sisters come and create this plan, even our own association or a fragment of our administration, right, we thought then they must do a better job just because there's bigger group of people, more asset under management that the sexy term AUM. But like you say it may not be managed well. Right? So I listen to podcasts and there is a book called The Kentucky Fried Pension. And this is a guy who is a whistleblower, which is actually a paid job in the US, and he was investigating the Kentucky State Pension and how screwed up, this is like you say, the firefighters, nurses, policemen, that how not just mismanaged, but there is just hankie panky mismanaged, like funds got stolen, siphoned to Wall Street, some favorite pals, you know, who worked there and get whatever kickback. It's just, bigger doesn't mean better.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:37:59] That's so true. And you know what I, the most interesting thing I've heard recently, Wing, was there's a pension plan out there that is saying that they're going to give you a defined benefit income stream. So predictable guaranteed income stream. But when you look under the hood and the mechanics of how it's built, it's built like a defined contribution pension.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:38:22] Mhm.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:38:23] Well defined contribution pension plans don't have any of the defined benefit fail safes. If the pension underperforms you can't put more money in.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:38:34] Mhm.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:38:35] Right? Based on my age I can't put more money in. If there's massive market problems, can't put more money in. If I retire early, right? All these fail safes that define benefit pensions have to give people security in retirement, because anything could happen. Retirement could be 30, 40 years. Right? Look at Sears. Those pension plans were mismanaged and people lost their pension. So it matters. What are the fail safes? And if you claim a defined benefit income for the rest of someone's life, but you don't have any of the fail safes, and your contribution schedule is that of a lesser contribution room, how could you promise that?
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:39:19] Right. I just want to address one more misconception, and then we'll move on to the next one, which is Q&A, and that is, there's different brands of the IPP. And you may have heard even in the physician world. And they package them, call themselves something else, but in front of CRA, there's only one thing. It's called IPP, right? You can say mine is curry chicken, mine is kung pao chicken, mine is coconut Thai chicken, curry chicken, but at the end of the day, there's only chicken. CRA only recognizes chicken, right? Not the fancy brand. And sometimes they mislead people. I don't know if it's consciously or subconsciously but that's what we want to educate on our listeners what is an IPP. And that's just it, right? There may be different ways they twist it, but at the end of the day, IPP is an IPP is an IPP.
Nick Giovannetti: [00:40:14] Well, and I can give you a good example. Everybody here I would assume is familiar with the term Group RRSP. Group RRSP is not defined in the Income Tax Act. It's a made up term for RRSPs that are pooled benefits through a group. But if you look up Group RRSP in the Income Tax Act you won't find it because the underlying what CRA recognizes as the investment is just RRSP. You could call it fancy banana, but it's an RRSP. So again IPPs will follow the IPP rules and registration. They could be registered as defined benefit only or as a combination. So that might be one kind of flexibility piece. But just be aware of how it's registered.
Dr. Wing Lim: [00:41:03] Right on, okay. So I want to thank Nick for so much wisdom, so much knowledge, so much information and the perspectives. Right? So we actually blown by quite like instead of half hour, way over. So we'll stop here the official one.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Thank you so much for listening to the Physician Empowerment podcast. If you're ready to take those next steps in transforming your practice, finances, or personal well-being, then come and join us at PhysEmpowerment.ca - P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about how we can help. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd really appreciate it if you would share our podcast with a colleague or friend and head over to Apple Podcasts to give us a five-star rating and review. If you've got feedback, questions or suggestions for future episode topics, we'd love to hear from you. If you want to join us and be interviewed and share some of your story, we'd absolutely love that as well. Please send me an email at KMailo@PhysEmpowerment.ca. Thank you again for listening. Bye.
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Dr. Kevin Mailo: Hi, I'm Doctor Kevin Mailo, one of the co-hosts of the Physician Empowerment podcast. At Physician Empowerment we're dedicated to improving the lives of Canadian physicians personally, professionally, and financially. If you're loving what you're listening to, let us know! We always want to hear your feedback. Connect with us. If you want to go further, we've got outstanding programing both in person and online so look us up. But regardless, we hope you really enjoy this episode.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Hi. Uh, it's Kevin again on the Physician Empowerment podcast. And, of course, we've got Wing here joining us. And today's topic is very near and dear to my heart because it has taken me a long time. To develop this skill because I was very much in the micromanaging, do it yourself space. And it's been not only, I think for myself, you know, in terms of life being less stressful, but it's also been really a lot of fun because as you expand your network, you begin to broaden your horizons, see things through other people's eyes, and grow as a person. And what I'm getting at here, and I didn't use the D word yet, is delegation. And that's what's so powerful in improving our lives. So in an earlier episode on the podcast, we talked about time management. And one of the keys to time management is being able to either automate a task and streamline its process, or hand off to somebody that you trust, who maybe you've even invested some time in training up, let's say if it's a medical office assistant. So today, Wing is going to be exploring the power of delegation in our lives. Because again, you know, Wing, you've achieved so much in the space of real estate practice building while maintaining a robust and happy family life. And I would venture to guess a big part of that success has been through delegation.
Dr. Wing Lim: Yeah. Delegation doesn't come easy. So let's go deeper. And this one is not going to be a talk, Kevin and I, we're just going to chat on this. The delegation, I think we all talk about the D word, right, but deep down we don't want to. We really don't want to because we trust ourselves. Right? And this is a recurring theme at Physician Empowerment. The biggest enemy of freedom may be the guy in the mirror. Because we have so many years of education and processes and because lives are at stake. Mistakes are costly to other people and to yourself. So we tend to just do it, right, and they say, if you want to do it right, do it yourself. And so years after years, post-graduate training, residency, one fellowship and all that, teaching you that you are it, you're the expert. And so you have to do it right. And because of that, we have this intrinsic trust in ourselves. And some of us become very egotistical, giant ego, and even the God-like syndrome. Right? And we don't trust anyone. So as a result, it's very difficult for medical professionals to actually delegate. I'll give you an example. There are people who would rather take the, I have colleagues that would take the blood pressure themselves, like on a patient, rather than trusting a medical staff to do it. Why do you have to do that? Right? Because even blood pressure, you know, there's a good way and bad way to do it. Okay, I understand there's some procedures you cannot delegate out, but more and more we're team based. So I think the first thing to fight is this intrinsic bend towards just trusting yourself and not trusting others because I'm smart, therefore everybody else is dumb. So therefore I don't want to water down my quality. So I don't want to delegate to you.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: And let me just interrupt there and say like, this is not about delegating the crucial tasks, right? You know, like if you're a surgeon, you know, and you're elbow deep in somebody's abdomen, you really want to make sure that it's done right. That's where you want to focus your energy is on those crucial, crucial tasks, right? I mean, I do the same thing in the ER in the trauma bay, right? Like sitting at the airway, making sure it's done properly. Because that's the crucial task. But realize that delegation, and I'm just going to go on a little bit of a rant here, delegation is a resource saving measure for us, right? Because we only have so much concentration and intensity and focus. So do you want to dissipate that by like measuring every single one of your patients blood pressure, because you don't trust that somebody will put the automatic blood pressure cuff on properly on the arm?
Dr. Wing Lim: Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Right? Like there has to be some limits here because if you're so focused on that, are you really hearing the history? Do you know what I mean? Or if you are doing your own taxes because you don't want to pay an accountant, or you're doing your own bookkeeping, are you missing the big picture on high level tax planning that could mean hundreds of thousands of dollars to you. Right? So there is a limit to how much attention and focus we can bring in, right? Like I can't sit there and, you know, make sure every IV that, you know, my nursing staff in the department are doing it, doing it perfectly right. Like, no, I have to sit there and be able to focus on the things that no one else can do but me and then, and be comfortable delegating and trusting my team. So that's a personal growth thing, but don't feel bad about the parts that you need to micromanage in your life. By all means do it. You can't outsource personal relationships and friendships, but you want to be present for those.
Dr. Wing Lim: Exactly. So you hit it right on the nose there, Kevin. So the paradigm here is this: only do what only you can do. That's the whole thing about delegation. Only do what only you can do. You're the only one that could be your significant other's significant other, spouse, or whatever you want to call it. You're the only dad or mom your kids have, right? You cannot delegate that out, right? When you have the chief surgeon, you have to do stuff that you have to do. But then everything else you should not do, right? It's like a flashlight versus a laser pen. Right? We all understand that, right? The point of focus is to just put everything out and just do only what you can, only you can do. And then, you know what? If you're a team lead in the department and your practice and your division, you know, what's the most scarce resource is a thing called thinking. Thinking--.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: -- but it's true--
Dr. Wing Lim: -- is a hard thing. Otherwise everybody will be doing it.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: It's very easy to do. And I think this segues nicely backwards to our earlier talk about time. I think it's very easy. Our minds like to get into that rut of, well, I want to focus on this one detail or task because it requires less mental energy.
Dr. Wing Lim: Mhm.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: When really, thinking, as Henry Ford said it, is the hardest job of all. And that requires some mental space. And to get that mental space, we need to delegate.
Dr. Wing Lim: Exactly. So you cannot rely on your allied professional that you delegate down to do that for you. Right? Otherwise they should be sitting in your chair. Then you need to be delegated the task and they need to do the thinking. So if you're a clinic owner, you need to absolutely do the thinking. If a department head, the list goes on and on, right? And so, yeah, so do only what you can do. And if we can chew on that and then just plan your life accordingly, your life would absolutely change and everybody around you would absolutely change. But for that to happen, to only do what you want to do, only you can do, that means you have to have the intrinsic trust in other people. And I tell people that I love to work with people smarter than me. I love to be the dumbest person in the room. I love to because then I gain a lot, right? So I have no background in architecture construction. When we built this 156 unit senior home, state of the art building that won an award, second in the world, I didn't even know that until we got the award. And who won the award? What we did collectively. But the designers did, and I found myself and my partners, this was my dream, right? And I sat in a room downtown Edmonton, top architect, or biggest architect firm in the nation, in the Edmonton branch and in there is like 15 engineers. And I look around. These guys are all very, very smart. I didn't even know there could be 15 engineers, different disciplines. They kept looking at me and my partners. What do you want? Right? So if the why is big enough, the how comes. And so once you delegate the people who are smart and I said I'm the dumbest person in this room. And time and time again and once you do the delegation, things get done despite of you. I love that, not because of me, but things got done in spite of me, right? And then big things could happen. So that's delegation. Okay. Let's talk about what delegation is not. Delegation is not abdication. Okay, let me repeat. Delegation is not abdication. And why would you say that? Because that's the common mistake we have. And the top, top, top example is in finance. Okay, I just had a chat with one of our Physician Empowerment Masterclass attendees and this professional, we're talking about this application that we give our money to these transaction based, commission based people that set their financial advisors. And meanwhile, he's selling us products, right? Sorry. They are selling us products and they're going to help you be financially free. Maybe, maybe, maybe maybe not.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: I don't know, I don't know.
Dr. Wing Lim: What's assured is their commission, not your future. Right? And so this abdication just because oh, because you said you're good. I just give it to you. Give my whole life hard earned money to you. That's your abdication, right?
Dr. Kevin Mailo: I mean, but I mean, you can also go the other way. I mean, you can blindly buy the market on a broad spread ETF and not pay attention to what, not that you want to time the market, but you want to time your life around the market like, you know, and ask yourself, am I ready to fall off the cliff 12 months before retirement if the market crashes, you know? And again, you can't just blindly trust a person or a process and say, well, that's good enough. You do have to, you have to manage your managers. I think that's what we teach at the course.
Dr. Wing Lim: Another example. There's lots of horror story examples. We're just looking at a building in our city that was owned by a physician that went into receivership. Right.? And this dude trust to somebody else who is the expert who's going to run the whole thing. And I drove by that plaza, that plaza is full. It's hard to find parking. How does somebody run it down to the ground? Right? And now it's in judicial sale. And this, unfortunately, this guy's in deep trouble now. And so if you think, oh, real estate is going to, or whatever, you know, you pick a asset class, it's going to make me rich. No it doesn't. And unless you have a good management team, if you just blindly trust somebody, just abdicated your future, they're going to bite you back in the butt. Right? So that's a sobering example.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: And I think the other reflection here is like a lot of the time when we've done something ourselves for many years, we unconsciously know all the ins and outs of it. We unconsciously know all the ins and outs of it, and so there has to be some patience when we're working with somebody and teaching them and some humility. Right? And put yourself in their shoes and remember when you were learning that process and that thing. And so just pause, put the time in and and make sure that they understand and make sure you understand their position as somebody new to this task. And so check your assumptions before you begin to sit down and have that instructions conversation with the person that you're about to delegate to.
Dr. Wing Lim: Right. And then they don't perform well and you give them heck. You know what? You should give yourself heck, right? I'm just training a new staff, a highly reliable staff just left for a higher-paid position in the hospital. Right. We do that, lose staff all the time, right? We start with new and there's a lot of assumptions. So I got angry that why is this not done? Because they're new. I didn't teach them. Right? Next thing is you need to give a clear time frame. The song I love you tomorrow, you're just a day away. It keeps postponing tomorrow. If there's no clear time frame, don't expect to get it done. And relationships get tarnished, work relationships, even personal relationships get tarnished because you always say that I'm going to do it when. Right? So if you don't have a time frame, don't expect it to be done in a hurried manner. And then there has to be measurable outcomes. If there are no measurable outcomes, it's just a bunch of warm fuzzies. Sorry. It has to be measured. If you cannot measure it, it cannot be done. There has to be accountability. So you give the task to somebody. Is that accountable? Okay, let's jump from clinical practice to finance again. I have a colleague that was told by his wealth manager, doctor in the last 20 years, in the stock portfolio, you earn 20% a year for the last ten years. Is that even possible? Right. And the only reason, if you take that up...
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Of course, I know where this is going.
Dr. Wing Lim: It's the annual contribution. Then you had this was making money every year. Right?
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Yeah.
Dr. Wing Lim: Right. And there's no accountability because you just believe them, right? Whatever they say. And same, we delegate a task to the accountant. Like I do, I trust my accountant, but I don't run business decisions with my accountant. My accountant is not the guy who makes that business decision. He makes accounting decision. Right? So the accountability structure has to be well defined, and they have to be accountable to you or somebody else on something that is measurable. That's true.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Dr. Wing Lim: Final thing is consequence. If you let people do something where whether they do or not, there's no consequence, you have endorsed the non-performance. So somebody says if you, if your staff or whoever you trust in your team, they can get away with XYZ. And they keep getting, they will continue to get away, because you blessed it. You condone it. There has to be consequences. Yay or nay, right? Good or bad. So these are some of the guardrails that is supposed to be intrinsic. But you know what, I don't think it's really common knowledge. And while talking about it, I reminded myself 3 or 4 things that, oh shoot, I didn't follow what I preached. Right? This is just reminder for all of us that to be effective, you need team. And to have effective team, you need to have this delegation process.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: I love it. I love it.
Dr. Wing Lim: Right. And then to have a systematic thing. If you do this together as a systematic process that's at different level, right. Delegation was just talking about this act of delegating. But then you still, somebody still need to create the architecture, the whole conveyor belt, the whole, what do you call that, assembly line. Right? And A on B fold on C glue on D and you achieve E. Like so this has to be processed, and that's called systemization which is a different talk altogether. But this is really important for us to understand that to achieve more than what you can achieve by yourself, you got to let go of this ego thing, trust somebody. But with criteria.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: And again this is people skills. This is absolutely people skills and I think that's so important. Right? Not only the words you choose, the time frames you give the person you're delegating to, how you provide feedback, how you discuss consequences or outcomes, all of this is people skills, right. And again this is the barrier to delegating because you go oh I'm not looking forward to this conversation. Maybe I'll just do it myself. But again, that's not how we grow as individuals. When we grow as individuals personally, professionally, financially, it's because we're able to have those tough conversations, but just have it with yourself in the mirror before you go in there. And again, emphasize to yourself that this is a people skill. This isn't about the given task or your process or anything more than, it is a people skill.
Dr. Wing Lim: Right. And it's to empower your team up to their capacity. So we have, I've joined a practice management course a long time ago and that's a different talk as well. But basically what we learned is a doctor should never do a nurse's job, RN should not do LPNs job, LPNs should not do MAs job, MAs should not do a receptionist job, receptionist shouldn't do a janitorial job. But you can see all this in every clinic, every department, right? It's all screwed up. I was a patient once a few years ago, and I found a Sunday morning there's a RN changing bed sheets. I thought, why do you need to do that? Right? That's an absolute waste of public resource. And so if we understand that process we would be a lot more effective.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: I'll just chime in with a few high level practical points about delegation. And this applies, because delegation can be done in our personal life and professional life. You know, do you change the oil on your vehicle or you take it into the shop to get it done? Do you mow your own lawn or do you hire it out? And so the first sort of matrix that I get people to look through, the first lens actually, is probably a better description, the first lens I get when I teach this topic at our conference or in the Masterclasses, is the first thing you want to look through is your hourly rate. Know how much per hour you make gross. And then net after overhead. And remember, when you're calculating your hourly rate, it is not just time in front of patients. It is administrative work, CME, emails, charting, whatever have you. It could even include your commute. Right? So understand what your hourly rate is. And I think unfortunately when you add up all of the unpaid things you do as a doctor, your hourly rate plummets and it's pretty depressing. Nonetheless, go through the exercise. I encourage everybody to do it. I know my hourly rate. And so number one is know your hourly rate because it allows you to make decisions on how much you're going to pay somebody to do something, right? And remember there are tax consequences. So if it's a corporate expense then it's a corporate expense. And you're more tolerant of, you know, that higher hourly rate to bring in a great professional, for instance, a great accountant or a great bookkeeper.
Dr. Wing Lim: Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: These people that help you build wealth. And then in your personal life, remember, it's after tax dollars, so you probably don't want to hold, you don't want to delegate to Skip the Dishes every night. Put it that way. You really don't. And or, you know, Uber Eats or whoever else is out there, right? Like you actually have to be very mindful of the after tax cost to yourself before you delegate. The other lens that I get people to look through, you know, we talk about this in an earlier episode, is what is crucial and cannot be delegated. That list is actually very short in our personal and professional lives. But don't delegate away the things that are actually going to matter in your life, whether it's driving your kids to soccer, spending time with your spouse or partner, even if it means taking him or her to the airport, right? Yeah, could you delegate a cab? But what about that moment that you could have shared together? Be mindful in delegation. This is, I hate the word efficiency in our lives, especially in our personal lives. I remember coming across, I remember I met an ophthalmologist once who was outstanding, said be efficient with things, not with people.
Dr. Wing Lim: Mhm. Wow.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Like ideally if you have done time management and delegation properly, you should have lots of like free moments where you don't have to be anywhere else but enjoying that moment, right? Whether it's reading a book, spending time with family or friends, going for a walk, whatever, like or even just be free to like have like a day that just goes all over the place. But you didn't have to do anything else in your life because it was all properly delegated and you created that space. That's a gift to you. That is so powerful. And so that again is the next criteria that I ask people to use as a lens is, is this making my life happier? Like for instance I changed the oil on my truck with my kids because I like that time with my son and at times it's been three generations of us doing it just to teach and bond. I would never delegate that out. Right? That's just an example from my personal life. So try to be mindful and reflective of where you are delegating and delegate the things but don't delegate people. Don't be efficient with the people that matter in your life. And don't even be efficient with yourself. Like, you know, create downtime for yourself.
Dr. Wing Lim: Mhm.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: So that you can invest in yourself. So those are, those are again my reflections, you know having maybe learned the hard way about either under delegating or over delegating, frankly. There is a balance.
Dr. Wing Lim: Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Okay. Maybe we'll wrap it up. Again that was another great one. I love, I love these topics because these are the things again that we all struggle with but don't even have a framework to talk about it or think about it. But if you can effectively delegate in your personal and professional life, you can go anywhere and build anything you want. That's a key.
Dr. Wing Lim: And to earn back the freedom.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Oh goodness. The freedom's everything, honestly.
Dr. Wing Lim: Mhm. Yeah.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Honestly I look at my, I look at my own teenagers living that free life and I'm deeply envious of their time richness.
Dr. Wing Lim: Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: You know?
Dr. Wing Lim: No kidding.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Not all the drama of being a teenager. Not all the drama of being a teenager, but certainly envious of that, the wealth of time that they have compared to the rest of us who are so busy and overscheduled.
Dr. Wing Lim: Mhm. Yeah.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: All right. All right. Let's wrap this one up. Thank you.
Dr. Wing Lim: Yeah okay. Thank you everyone.
Dr. Kevin Mailo: Thank you so much for listening to the Physician Empowerment podcast. If you're ready to take those next steps in transforming your practice, finances, or personal well-being, then come and join us at PhysEmpowerment.ca - P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about how we can help. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd really appreciate it if you would share our podcast with a colleague or friend and head over to Apple Podcasts to give us a five star rating and review. If you've got feedback, questions or suggestions for future episode topics, we'd love to hear from you. If you want to join us and be interviewed and share some of your story, we'd absolutely love that as well. Please send me an email at KMailo@PhysEmpowerment.ca. Thank you again for listening. Bye.
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Hi, I'm Dr. Kevin Mailo, one of the CO hosts of the Physician Empowerment Podcast. At Physician Empowerment, we're dedicated to improving the lives of Canadian physicians, personally, professionally, and financially. If you're loving what you're listening to, let us know, we always want to hear your feedback, connect with us. If you want to go further, we've got outstanding programming, both in-person and online. So, look us up, but regardless, we hope you really enjoyed this episode.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 00:35
Hi, I'm Dr. Kevin Mailo, one of the CO hosts of the Physician Empowerment Podcast, and you guys probably already know that, because that's how I introduce myself every single time I'm on the show. And today, I've got my fellow co-host, Dr. Wing Lim, and again, I think most of you know who Wing is and what he does. And he's the one that leads our master class and does a phenomenal job teaching the ins and outs of high-level tax planning, wealth creation strategies, real estate investing. But there's a lot here with Wing. And that's why I look to you Wing like a mentor because I've learned so much from you, in so many facets of my personal and professional life. And one of the things in my personal life that I learned from you is the notion of time management. And so that's what we're going to cover today. And I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on how it is you've achieved so much in real estate development, full-time practice, a family, travel, you've done so much. And a lot of this comes down to not only goal setting but time management. So, why don't you talk and share some of your thoughts on this? Because I'm very interested to hear about it.
Dr. Wing Lim 01:49
Yeah, thank you, Kevin, for a very kind introduction. And I say when people talk up on you, you wish you would live up to it. And so I love doing this because every time we share with our colleagues, we're more alike than different whatever your specialty, and now listenership is not just in with MDS, right, they're out of medical professionals that they're dialling in. So, we all dealt with this problem that we're time broke, right? And at first time I heard this term, this is like 25 years ago, maybe, what does time property mean? Well, because there are people who trade time for money, and that's us, right? We trade time for money. You don't have trade time, you have no money, right? So, you keep trading time for money. And then the problem is, then very soon, you run out of time, right? So, you and I went through gruesome training, we all did, right? 120 hours way back residency, when we did one in two calls, one in three calls, 36 hours straight. Right? And even when I started my practice, 100 hours a week, so you pretty soon run out of time. So, then we take these time management courses, we pay for it way back? And then what do you get? Right? So, I think all of us understand that we need to manage time. So, I think all of us would at least have a to-do list. You know, we have this to-do list every day you put down, right? And then I learned as I go and then I learned that that doesn't work. How many of you and I will look at the to-do list and we actually get better? In fact, what you're doing on a to-do list is just bumping, right? You're just doing it based on urgency. So then, some 10 years later, decades later, the thinking and time management's like medical journal, right, like medical thinking, it's changed. So, that's called a one-dimensional time management. And you've just bump things, in fact, nobody could control time, time is a commodity that you cannot control. Time goes on whether you do it or not. And the truth is, most of us can do the urgency, but time management or event control, let's call it better event control. It's a very emotional base thing. Right? You and I have said, Okay, I gotta get these charts done. I gotta do that stupid medical legal report or WCB report. And you were so stressed out, that you ended up clicking on a mini-series six episodes later of the Netflix. Right? Ya know.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 04:12
No, It's true. And a lot of it is we feel overwhelmed by how much we have on our plates. And so then it becomes very easy to procrastinate or distract ourselves. And it can even be distracting ourselves, not just with like idle leisure, but even distracting ourselves in work. Right, that rather than doing the hard stuff, you know, maybe we go do some errands around the house or, you know, get some shopping that's not urgently needed to be done. Even just going to work and doing more paperwork.
Dr. Wing Lim 04:44
Yep. And then we just keep being busy, right? But keeping busy doesn't mean keeping being productive. Right, so I'm the perfect Master of this. I have 15 things on my to-do list today and I only got four done, right and every day you just keep bumping it right? So, that's called the first dimension. There's actually different dimensions, polly dimensional. So, dimension one is the to-do list, and it's based on urgency. Okay, which one do you bump? And we know that that's not adequate. Now then comes the 80s and 90s. And then there's a guy, Franklin Covey. I don't know how many of you heard of Franklin Covey. I used to have a big binder, called Franklin Covey binder, but that's how you organize the life, and Covey “The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People”, right, he’s the guy.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 05:31
Oh, Stephen Covey.
Dr. Wing Lim 05:34
Stephen Covey? Yes.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 05:35
No, I got you. No worries.
Dr. Wing Lim 05:37
Yeah, yeah. So, there are two companies that join, right? So, Frank. Anyways, the two companies and so that's called Franklin. I used to have these big Franklin folders. And they go into the urgency and importance, right? This is called a time management matrix, where some of you have heard it from The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, right? So, you have the urgent, nonurgent, important, not important, then you got four possibilities, right? And most of us still deal with urgent/important things. This is actually people who, like you'd practice within ER, you're dealing with urgent, important things, right? But nonurgent, and not important things get ignored. Right? And that's why they say, why do people not read more? And the Maestro says because books don't ring? Right? You will always answer to the phone, to the urgent things, but they're important things that we don't deal with. So us physicians and medical practitioners, are no tourists dealing with more urgent stuff, and we push the important things away. And then it fights back, I have literally met colleagues that forgot to file taxes for seven years. And the CRA came to the door and garnish their wage. How do you do that? Right? Because you keep doing the urgent one, right? And you forgot about it? So, this Time Matrix thing helps people to do okay, I need to apportion the time, right?
Dr. Kevin Mailo 07:00
Well, I was just gonna say even if you don't internalize it, so rigidly and for anybody that has not read Stephen Covey's The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I strongly recommend reading it, but even just to be able to have that mental pause, when something comes in front of you, whether you hear about it, or you read about it, or somebody you know, you're reminded of it in your head, say, is this truly urgent? Is it distracting me from what's important that I have to get done to move ahead on this project with this goal? Sorry, please continue.
Dr. Wing Lim 07:34
So, it's absolutely important exercise. So, for those of us who are still stuck with this linear thing called the to-do list, you need a second now y-axis to create the importance. And so you and I need to apportion our days, that the toughest one, or the nonurgent, but important things. Buying tax return, doing your tax planning, right, you know, those things are super important. If you don't invest in these relationships then relationships blow out, right down the row. And so definitely, that is important. But then at the end of the day, you are still juggling different things. And the biggest thing and the motive here, the MO is to do more things, right? But there's still not enough time of the day, right? You still don't create time. So, then I attended a leadership conference, I think during COVID or pre-COVID. And the guy said there's a third dimension, oh, what is the third dimension? The third Dimension is called significance. Right? You don't just deal with what is there, you deal with what is the long-term significance. The longer significance is not just what is important, is way beyond that. I went to a leadership conference way back a big 20,000-people thing in the States and they talked about legacy, what you're left with, and after that, that conference, that's how I gave birth to, dug up my dream and gave birth to Synergy Wellness Center. But these things are life-changing. What is significant to you, what is the endgame? And so when you throw in the X, Y, and Z axis, it changes what you're going to do. It may change your priority and change what you do. You've been doing things for so many years for decades. Isn't why you're still doing it. Right? You need to ask why? Why am I doing this? You're running on a treadmill now for 10, 20, 30 years, trading time for money, right? We're talking a lot of colleagues and say, I'm like 40 some year old practitioner. I got X number of dollars in debt. I can't afford to retire. Why am I doing this? Right, and a lot of people have that midlife thing awoken and say this is getting nowhere and that's why there's so much attrition people walking out of the profession. Right, so until we find out why we don't know what we're doing. And then there's this guy call. I forgot his name. Now, Rory, somebody, Rory Haun there we go. Rory Haun, give him the credit for doing this. And he says there's this funnel that you can help create time. Right? You really you can create time? You mean like other than the Avenger Timestone? You can create time? And the question is what can you do today, to create more time tomorrow? Wow, that's absolutely amazing. How do you create more time tomorrow? Well, are there things that you can do today? So, that you don't have to do it tomorrow? Okay, give you an example. Right. And you and I do charts, do things every day, right? We have chart work to do. If you have a way to let's say, create a macro in electronic medical record system EMR, it does the template for you, or those of you dictate, Dragon Dictate. Kevin you’ve tried that, right? Things that could save you time, right, then you get this ROTI, return on time invested. So, what can you do today that invest a little bit more time so that you reap the benefit? And the equation that I got was 30 times 30. So, whatever tasks you want to give up to make it disappear, you invest 30 times the time you spent. So, for example, a five-minute task, you invest 150 minutes, okay, simple math. What is the five-minute task, something that your staff could do? And so the problem that we have is we are our top enemy. We’re the worst enemy because we want to do it. If you do want to do right, do it yourself. The more years we spend in tertiary care settings, the more we don't trust people, right, we just trust ourselves. I have, especially colleagues, if you refer them, they redo all the investigations all over because they don't trust anyone. So, this mistrust becomes difficult for us to delegate. And that's a different session we're going to talk about it's just delegation. But to delegate, you need a process, but the time we're talking about time management here, event control is a five-minute event you want it disappear in your daily life. It could be doing a chart, doing something that your clinic work. Invest 30 times 150 minutes to teach, delegate one of your staff to do the job for you. And then poof, you're earn five minutes per day. What if is an hour, 30 times, invest 30 hours. And that could be learning EMR. By learning EMR, what shortcuts can I do, so that I make these stupid things disappear? Right, prescription refills, you name it, and you invest 30 hours. I have colleagues who would not have 30 hours to get for anything. But you know what, if you invest the 30 hours, you earn one hour a day. And why don't we do it?
Dr. Kevin Mailo 13:02
It pays for itself in a month, and you still have your career to run.
Dr. Wing Lim 13:06
You want to make more money and you might keep a relationship that you cherish or sports or some hobby that you don't have to kill.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 13:14
You know, I mean, even just reflect like in, you know, in our personal lives, the parallel is children. I mean, you can sit there and you can clean up after your children. But at some point, you just need to teach them how to scrub floors, and tidy up the house and do their laundry, even if it's like you said, 30 times that it takes you to just do this task yourself. But you realize that ultimately you're creating more time for yourself and less stress, Right? And so this dovetails with every aspect of our lives. It is just willingness to put in a little bit of front-end investment in time to make our lives easier and simpler. Moving forward.
Dr. Wing Lim 13:58
Right, exactly. So, let's just end this episode with a funnel, okay, this funnel is called the permission funnel. We need to give ourselves emotional permission, okay? I can give myself emotional permission but once you give yourself emotional permission, then you can move forth. So, the first question, the first permission you give yourself is to eliminate. Elimination that's one. Can I do without this? Okay, can I do with all these things? Say no. Say no, no, no no for people like me who was a yes man, mostly, it's a very difficult thing. But if we want to get on top of this time management thing or more control, event control thing. We have to say no, can I do without it? So, the first permission is the permission to say no and exit out. I don't want to do it. Permission number two is can we all automate. Right? We’re in an automation world. AI is gonna run the world. AI can read CT scans, better than we could, right? So can we automate? If you can automate, you're done. But the automation is not just AI, just technology. Automation means systemization. Can you have a system in your workplace, in your practice, in your finances, in your home life? Is that something that can be systemized? Right? And, of course, that's a different topic altogether. Can you systemize it? Or can you use technology to do it? Once you can automate, you’re done. The third permission is permission to delegate. Okay, and we're going to have a whole talk about delegation. Can we delegate that away? And the fourth permission is, can I procrastinate? So, you thought procrastination is a bad thing. Yes, it is. Procrastination is the assassination of motivation, as somebody once said that, but there are things that we should procrastinate because we have a finite amount of time, right now. So, things that don't fit that grid, X, Y, & Z grid. You need permission to procrastinate, to go back to the funnel, okay? So, you either procrastinate, or you number five, concentrate. And whatever goes into the concentrate is like the filtration. You put all your time, energy, effort, you and your team into the concentrate, and get it done. And that's how people move and shake the world. Right?
Dr. Kevin Mailo 16:33
It's very powerful.
Dr. Wing Lim 16:33
And it's never been to me, I've lost so many people right in this space. But this actually did it for me, this crystallizes everything.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 16:48
Very powerful, very powerful. You know, I'm reflecting on when we were in Mexico in 2021, teaching with Physician Empowerment. And I remember coming across some wisdom that you shared as well, Wing because I think I actually had to deliver that talk. But I know that it was your wisdom and your knowledge in this space of time control. But one of the key elements here is that it's not actually time control. Because like you said, time is passing us by. It's truly self-control. It is self-control. It's knowing your priorities, setting them, and then sticking with them, even if that means saying no. And it's not just no to external requests on your time, your staff, your colleagues, your family, friends, whomever is asking for your time, but it's even that internal voice telling you, oh, but go do this, it's easier, right? Or this is important now. When it truly isn't, if you're honest with yourself, and that's about, again, self-control, not time control. And I think that's very powerful. Because when you look at people who have achieved enormous things, you know, heights in, you know, reached enormous heights, in business, politics, athletics, whatever. Fundamentally, they have the same number of hours in a day, as we do. Chosen, like you said Wing, to concentrate and focus. And it is fundamentally self-control, whether you're an athlete, a performer, you know, a business or political leader, or you know, even just a great dynamic physician, it comes down to self-control. And I think that is so, so powerful. And so key. That's certainly what I've taken away from listening and reflecting in this space.
Dr. Wing Lim 18:40
Mm-hmm, exactly. So, if we could apply these simple principles in every facet of our life, then we can have some freedom. But at the end of the day, we yeah, we only live one life, right? And we're getting older one day at a time, right? So, the sooner we get this in our brain, the sooner we reorganize our life and control our life. Then you get your life back and have more freedom.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 19:10
The only other reflection I really had was just how precious time is. And I did not appreciate this 20 years ago when I was a teenager. But I blink and a decade has gone by, I blink and another decade has gone by. And so the challenge is to ask yourself, what am I doing right now, with the time that I have, especially realizing that we don't know how much of it we actually have here. And I think that allows us to focus down and say, Okay, this actually isn't a priority. And I'm not going to worry about it. I'm not going to that meeting. Or I'm not doing that, you know, answering that email, because, frankly, it's not going to be something I'm going to remember a year from now, let alone a decade from now in my life, right? And so, again, just recognizing how precious these years in our lives are and that these years are comprised of a million small moments and countless hours that do drift by if we don't exercise that self-control.
Dr. Wing Lim 20:13
Mm-hmm, exactly. Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 20:16
Yeah. No, it's It's a wonderful topic. I think we could go on and on about it. But we are going to do a future episode where we cover delegation, right, which I think is the key to effective time management. Is being able to hand tasks off, or as you said Wing, we automate a process. Yup. So, we'll cover that in a later episode. And I'm really looking forward to it. Because again, these are the things I think speak to all of us regardless of specialty, regardless of stage of career, I think we all feel too busy. And we want a way out, we want things to be better, and they can be unconfident in it.
Dr. Wing Lim 20:58
Exactly. So, imagine you could go home at five o'clock, six o'clock, whatever, and be done with work, wouldn’t that be a dream?
Dr. Kevin Mailo 21:06
True. Totally done. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks so much.
Dr. Wing Lim 21:12
Thank you, everyone.
Dr. Kevin Mailo 21:15
Thank you so much for listening to the Physician Empowerment podcast. If you're ready to take those next steps in transforming your practice, finances, or personal well-being, then come and join us at PhysEmpowerment.ca - P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about how we can help. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd really appreciate it if you would share our podcast with a colleague or friend and head over to Apple Podcasts to give us a five-star rating and review. If you've got feedback, questions or suggestions for future episode topics, we'd love to hear from you. If you want to join us and be interviewed and share some of your story, we'd absolutely love that as well. Please send me an email at KMailo@PhysEmpowerment.ca. Thank you again for listening. Bye.
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