People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals founder Ingrid Newkirk has been badgering meat-eaters, fur-wearers, and circus-goers for more than 40 years. For a woman who’s leaving her liver to the president of France in her will, she sounds quite sensible when she tells Steve what we can learn from animals, why she supports euthanasia, and who’ll get her other organs. 

• SOURCE:
  • Ingrid Newkirk, founding president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Paradoxical Gender Effects in Meat Consumption Across Cultures," by Christopher J. Hopwood, Jahn N. Zizer, Wiebke Bleidorn, et al. (Nature Scientific Reports, 2024).
  • "PETA President Bequeaths Her Rump to a Reality Show," (PETA.org, 2023).
  • Animalkind: Remarkable Discoveries about Animals and Revolutionary New Ways to Show Them Compassion, by Ingrid Newkirk (2020).
  • "One Last U.S. Medical School Still Killed Animals to Teach Surgery. But No More," by Darryl Fears (The Washington Post, 2016).
  • "The Naked and the Dead," by Katie Glass (The Times, 2013).
  • "The Betrayal of 'No-Kill' Sheltering," by Ingrid Newkirk (PETA YouTube channel, 2013).
  • "The Lab-Monkey Controversy That Launched the Animal-Rights Movement," by Caroline Fraser (The New Yorker, 1993).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Peter Singer Isn’t a Saint, But He’s Better Than Steve Levitt," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Bruce Friedrich Thinks There’s a Better Way to Eat Meat," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • Project Donor.

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Revisiting Steve’s 2021 conversation with the economist and MacArthur “genius” about how to make memories stickier, why change is undervalued, and how to find something new to say on the subject of scarcity.

• SOURCE:
  • Sendhil Mullainathan, university professor of computation and behavioral science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Fictional Money, Real Costs: Impacts of Financial Salience on Disadvantaged Students," by Claire Duquennois (American Economic Review, 2022).
  • "Do Financial Concerns Make Workers Less Productive?" by Supreet Kaur, Sendhil Mullainathan, Suanna Oh, and Frank Schilbach (NBER Working Paper, 2022).
  • Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less, by Leidy Klotz (2021).
  • "Heads or Tails: The Impact of a Coin Toss on Major Life Decisions and Subsequent Happiness," by Steve Levitt (NBER Working Paper, 2016).
  • Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much, by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir (2013).
  • "The End of History Illusion," by Jordi Quoidbach, Daniel T. Gilbert, and Timothy D. Wilson (Science, 2013).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Leidy Klotz on Why the Best Solutions Involve Less — Not More," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Sendhil Mullainathan Explains How to Generate an Idea a Minute," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).

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Ellen Langer is a psychologist at Harvard who studies the mind-body connection. She’s published some of the most remarkable scientific findings Steve has ever encountered. Can we really improve our physical health by changing our mind?

• SOURCE:
  • Ellen Langer, professor of psychology at Harvard University.

• RESOURCES:
  • Brave New Words: How AI Will Revolutionize Education (and Why That's a Good Thing), by Sal Khan (2024).
  • "F.D.A.’s Review of MDMA Cites Health Risks and Study Flaws," by Andrew Jacobs and Christina Jewett (The New York Times, 2024).
  • The Mindful Body: Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health, by Ellen Langer (2023).
  • "Physical Healing as a Function of Perceived Time," by Peter Aungle and Ellen Langer (Nature: Scientific Reports, 2023).
  • "Aging as a Mindset: A Study Protocol to Rejuvenate Older Adults With a Counterclockwise Psychological Intervention," by Francesco Pagnini, Cesare Cavalera, Ellen Langer, et al. (BMJ Open, 2019).
  • Counterclockwise: Mindful Health and the Power of Possibility, by Ellen Langer (2009).
  • "Mind-Set Matters: Exercise and the Placebo Effect," by Alia Crum and Ellen Langer (2007).
  • "The Effects of Choice and Enhanced Personal Responsibility for the Aged: A Field Experiment in an Institutional Setting," by Ellen Langer and Judith Rodin (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1976).

• EXTRAS:
  • "The Future of Therapy Is Psychedelic," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Extra: An Update on the Khan World School," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).
  • "Is This the Future of High School?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "What It Takes to Know Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Sal Khan: 'If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Greg Norman & Mark Broadie: Why Golf Beats an Orgasm and Why Data Beats Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • "Caverly Morgan: 'I Am Not This Voice. I Am Not This Narrative,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).
  • "Does 'As If' Thinking Really Work?" by No Stupid Questions (2020).
  • "Havana Wild Weekend," S28.E7 of The Simpsons (2016).

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He’s an M.I.T. cosmologist, physicist, and machine-learning expert, and once upon a time, almost an economist. Max and Steve continue their conversation about the existential threats facing humanity, and what Max is doing to mitigate our risk. The co-founder of the Future of Life Institute thinks that artificial intelligence can be the greatest thing to ever happen to humanity — if we don’t screw it up.

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How likely is it that this conversation is happening in more than one universe? Should we worry more about Covid or about nuclear war? Is economics a form of “intellectual prostitution?” Steve discusses these questions, and more, with Max, an M.I.T cosmologist, physicist, and machine-learning expert — who was once almost an economist. He also tells Steve why we should be optimistic about the future of humanity (assuming we move Earth to a larger orbit before the sun evaporates our oceans).

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He’s a pioneer of using randomized control experiments in economics — studying the long-term benefits of a $1 health intervention in Africa. Steve asks Edward, a Berkeley professor, about Africa’s long-term economic prospects, and how a parking-ticket-scandal in New York City led to a major finding on corruption around the world.

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Playing notes on her piano, she demonstrates for Steve why whole numbers sound pleasing, why octaves are mathematically imperfect, and how math underlies musical composition. Sarah, a professor at the University of London and Gresham College, also talks with Steve about the gender gap in mathematics and why being interested in everything can be a problem. 

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His childhood dream of playing in the N.B.A. led him to a career as a referee. Marc is one of the league’s top performers after over 20 seasons, but he still reviews every single one of his calls. He talks with Steve about being scrutinized by players, fans, and management; how much work — and data — go into being fair; and why he talks about race with his colleagues and his kids.

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It was only in his late twenties that America’s favorite brainiac began to seriously embrace his love of trivia. Jeopardy!’s newest host also holds the show’s “Greatest of All Time” title. Steve digs into how Ken trained for the show, what it means to have a "geographic memory," and why we lie to our children.

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This new Jeopardy! host is best known for playing neurobiologist Amy Farrah Fowler on The Big Bang Theory, but she has a rich life outside of her acting career too, as a teacher, mother — and a real-life neuroscientist. Steve learns more about this one-time academic and Hollywood non-conformist, who is both very similar to him and also quite his opposite.

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The prisoner’s dilemma is a classic game-theory problem. Robert, a political scientist at the University of Michigan, has spent his career studying it — and the ways humans can cooperate, or betray each other, for their own benefit. He and Steve talk about the best way to play it and how it shows up in real world situations, from war zones to Steve’s own life.

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Steve shows a different side of himself in very personal interviews with his two oldest daughters. Amanda talks about growing up with social anxiety and her decision to not go to college, while Lily speaks candidly about her battle with anorexia and the conversation she had with Steve that led her to finally seek treatment.

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When we try to improve things, our first thought is often: What can we add to make this better? But Leidy, a professor of engineering, says we tend to overlook the fact that a better solution might be to take something away. He and Steve talk about examples from Leidy’s book Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less, and from their own lives.

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Author and YouTuber John Green thought his breakout bestseller wouldn’t be a commercial success, wrote 40,000 words for one sentence, and brought Steve to tears.

• SOURCE:
  • John Green, best-selling author and YouTube creator.

• RESOURCES:
  • "The Deadliest Infectious Disease Isn’t a Science Problem. It’s a Money Problem," by John Green (The Washington Post, 2024).
  • “Tuition Inflation Isn’t as Bad as You Think,” by Felix Salmon (Axios, 2022).
  • “Fast Facts: Expenditures,” by the National Center for Education Statistics (2022).
  • “Trends in College Pricing and Student Aid 2021,” by the College Board (2021).
  • “#37 John,” by Heavyweight (2021).
  • The Anthropocene Reviewed: Essays on a Human-Centered Planet, by John Green (2021).
  • “Scratch ‘n’ Sniff Stickers and the Indianapolis 500,” by The Anthropocene Reviewed Podcast (2019).
  • “How Joan of Arc Conquered Mark Twain,” by Ted Gioia (America: The Jesuit Review, 2018).
  • Turtles All the Way Down, by John Green (2017).
  • The Fault in Our Stars, film (2014).
  • The Fault in Our Stars, by John Green (2012).
  • Looking for Alaska, by John Green (2005).
  • All the King’s Men, by Robert Penn Warren and Noel Polk (1946).
  • Harvey, film (1950).
  • vlogbrothers, YouTube channel by John and Hank Green.
  • Crash Course, YouTube channel by John and Hank Green.

• EXTRAS:
  • “Peter Singer Isn’t a Saint, But He’s Better Than Steve Levitt,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • “Freakonomics Radio Goes Back To School,” series by Freakonomics Radio (2022).

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An expert on urban economics and co-author of the new book Survival of the City, Ed says cities have faced far worse than Covid. Steve talks with the Harvard professor about why the slums of Mumbai function so well, high-quality housing in China sits empty, and declining cities hang on for so long.

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Former U.S. Secretary of Education, 3x3 basketball champion, and leader of an anti-gun violence organization are all on Arne’s resume. He’s also Steve’s neighbor. The two talk about teachers caught cheating in Chicago public schools and Steve shares a story he’s never told Arne, about a defining moment in the educator’s life.

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A special episode: Steve reports on a passion of his. Most high-school math classes are still preparing students for the Sputnik era. Steve wants to get rid of the “geometry sandwich” and instead have kids learn what they really need in the modern era: data fluency. Originally broadcast on Freakonomics Radio, this episode includes an update from Steve about a project he launched to revamp the education system.

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He’s a Harvard physician and economist who just started a third job: host of the new podcast Freakonomics, M.D. He’s also Steve’s former student. The two discuss why medicine should embrace econ-style research, the ethics of human-challenge trials, and Bapu’s role in one of Steve’s, ahem, less-than-successful experiments.

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He argues that personal finance is so simple all you need to know can fit on an index card. How will he deal with Steve’s suggestion that Harold’s nine rules for managing money are overly complicated? Harold and Steve also talk about gun violence — a topic Harold researches as a public-policy professor at the University of Chicago — and they propose some radical ideas for reducing it.

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She’s the C.E.O. of Zoox, an autonomous vehicle company. Steve asks Aicha about the big promises the A.V. industry hasn’t yet delivered — and the radical bet Zoox is making on a driverless future. Plus, Steve wants to know how she’s maintained her spark.

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Steve continues his conversation with his good friend, MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient, and fellow University of Chicago economist. Sendhil breaks down the hypothesis of his book Scarcity, explains why machines aren’t competition for human intelligence, and tells Steve why it’s important to appreciate other people’s good ideas before developing your own.

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He’s a professor of computation and behavioral science at the University of Chicago, MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient, and author. Steve and Sendhil laugh their way through a conversation about the importance of play, the benefits of change, and why we remember so little about the books we’ve read — and how Sendhil’s new app solves this problem.

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In this interview, first heard on Freakonomics Radio last year, Steve talks with the former top adviser to presidents Clinton and Obama, about his record — and his reputation. And Rahm explains that while he believes in the power of the federal government, as former mayor of Chicago, he says that cities are where problems really get solved.

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He’s been an Arctic scientist, a sports journalist, and is now a best-selling author of science books. His latest, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, makes the argument that early specialization does not give you a head start in life. David and Steve talk about why frustration is a good sign, and why the 10,000-hour rule is definitely not a rule.

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Suleika Jaouad was diagnosed with cancer at 22. She made her illness the subject of a New York Times column and a memoir, Between Two Kingdoms. She and Steve talk about what it means to live with a potentially fatal illness, how to talk to people who've gone through a tragedy, and ways to encourage medical donations.

• SOURCE:
  • Suleika Jaouad, author.

• RESOURCES:
  • "The Art of Survival," by Jennifer Senior (The Atlantic, 2024).
  • American Symphony, film by Matthew Heineman (2023).
  • Between Two Kingdoms: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted, by Suleika Jaouad (2021).
  • "Max Ritvo, Poet Who Chronicled His Cancer Fight, Dies at 25," by John Schwartz (The New York Times, 2016).
  • “Life, Interrupted,” column by Suleika Jaouad (The New York Times, 2012-2015).
  • The Fault in Our Stars, by John Green (2012).
  • Bright-sided: How Positive Thinking Is Undermining America, by Barbara Ehrenreich (2009).
  • The Isolation Journals, newsletter by Suleika Jaouad.

• EXTRAS:
  • "John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • "Does Death Have to Be a Death Sentence?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

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She used to run a behavioral unit in the Obama administration, and now has a similar role at Google. Maya and Steve talk about the power (and limits) of behavioral economics and also how people respond to change — the topic of her new podcast A Slight Change of Plans.

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He’s the C.E.O. of the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), which, under his charge, exposed the most celebrated American cyclist as a cheater. And Steve’s been studying cheaters for the last 25 years, so he’s also excited to talk to Travis about the incentives to cheat and the advances in testing technology — and offers his services as an anti-doping data detective for the sport of horse racing.

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She’s the author of the bestselling book Grit, and a University of Pennsylvania professor of psychology — a field Steve says he knows nothing about. But once Angela gives Steve a quick tutorial on “goal conflict,” he is suddenly a fan. They also talk parenting, self-esteem, and how easy it is to learn econometrics if you feel like it.

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He’s an economist who studies even weirder things than Steve. They discuss whether economics is the best of the social sciences, and why it’s a good idea to get a tattoo of a demand curve on your bicep.

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The African-born economist has written four bestselling books, including Dead Aid, which Bill Gates described as “promoting evil.” In her new book about corporate boards, Dambisa uses her experience with global corporations to explore how they can better meet society’s demands. And she explains to Steve why, even as a Harvard and Oxford-educated economist, her goal in life might sound “a little bit like a Miss America pageant.”

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Levitt rarely interviews advocates, but the founder of the Good Food Institute is different. Once an outspoken — and sometimes outlandish — animal-rights activist, Bruce has come to believe that market-driven innovation and scientific advancement are the best ways to reduce global meat consumption. Steve and Bruce talk about the negative externalities of factory-farmed meat, and why Bruce gave up antics like streaking at Buckingham Palace.

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As a neuroscientist and psychology professor at Columbia University who studies the immediate and long-term effects of illicit substances, Carl Hart believes that all drugs — including heroin, methamphetamines, and cocaine — should be legalized. Steve talks to Carl about his new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, and Carl tells Steve why decriminalizing drugs is as American as apple pie.

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Nobel laureate, best-selling author, and groundbreaking psychologist Daniel Kahneman is also a friend and former business partner of Steve’s. In discussing Danny’s new book Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment, the two spar over inconsistencies in criminal sentencing and Danny tells Steve that “Your attitude is unusual” — no surprise there.

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He’s one of the world’s leading competitors, having won four U.S. memory tournaments and holding the record for most names memorized in 15 minutes (235!). But Nelson Dellis claims he was born with an average memory and that anyone can learn his tricks. Steve gives Nelson’s techniques a shot, without much hope — and is surprised by the result.

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He’s a cognitive neuroscientist and philosopher who has written five best-selling books. Sam Harris also hosts the Making Sense podcast and helps people discover meditation through his Waking Up app. Sam explains to Steve how to become spiritual as a skeptic and commit to never lying again.

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Caroline Paul is a thrill-seeker and writer who is on a quest to encourage women to get outside and embrace adventure as they age. She and Steve talk about fighting fires, walking on airplane wings, and finding awe in birdwatching.

• SOURCE:
  • Caroline Paul, author and former firefighter.

• RESOURCES:
  • Tough Broad: From Boogie Boarding to Wing Walking ― How Outdoor Adventure Improves Our Lives as We Age, by Caroline Paul (2024).
  • "FAA Halts Sequim Wing-Walking Flights, Revokes Owner’s Pilot License," by Dominic Gates (The Seattle Times, 2024).
  • "How a Bit of Awe Can Improve Your Health," by Hope Reese (The New York Times, 2023).
  • The Gutsy Girl: Escapades for Your Life of Epic Adventure, by Caroline Paul (2016).
  • "Why Do We Teach Girls That It’s Cute to Be Scared?" by Caroline Paul (The New York Times, 2016).
  • "What if Age Is Nothing but a Mind-Set?" by Bruce Grierson (The New York Times Magazine, 2014).
  • Lost Cat: A True Story of Love, Desperation, and GPS Technology, by Caroline Paul (2013).
  • "The Cognitive Benefits of Interacting With Nature," by Marc G. Berman, John Jonides, and Stephen Kaplan (Psychological Science, 2008).
  • "Longevity Increased by Positive Self-Perceptions of Aging," by Becca R. Levy, Martin D. Slade, Suzanne R. Kunkel, and Stanislav V. Kasl (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2002).
  • Fighting Fire, by Caroline Paul (1998).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Is Fear Running Your Life?" by No Stupid Questions (2024).
  • "Arnold Schwarzenegger Has Some Advice for You," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).
  • "Should You Spend More Time in Nature?" by No Stupid Questions (2023).
  • "Steven Pinker: 'I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).

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He graduated high school at 14, and by 23 had several graduate degrees and was a research assistant with Stephen Hawking. He became the first chief technology officer at Microsoft (without having ever studied computer science) and then started a company focused on big questions — like how to provide the world with clean energy and how to optimize pizza-baking. Find out what makes Nathan Myhrvold’s fertile mind tick, and which of his many ideas Steve Levitt likes the most.

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She spent nearly a decade as an undercover C.I.A. operative working to prevent terrorism. More recently, she hosted The Business of Drugs on Netflix. Amaryllis Fox — now Kennedy — explains why intelligence work requires empathy, and she soothes Steve’s fears about weapons of mass destruction.

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Steve Levitt is obsessed with golf — and he’s pretty good at it too. As a thinly-veiled ploy to improve his own game, Steve talks to two titans of the sport: Greg “The Shark” Norman, who was the world’s top-ranked golfer for more than six years; and Mark Broadie, a Columbia professor whose data analysis changed how pros play the game.

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Khan Academy grew out of Sal Khan’s online math tutorials for his extended family. It’s now a platform used by more than 115 million people in 190 countries. So what does Khan want to do next? How about reinventing in-school learning, too? Find out why Steve nearly moved to Silicon Valley to be part of Khan's latest venture.

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He’s the chief creative officer of Pixar, and the Academy Award-winning director of Soul, Inside Out, Up, and Monsters, Inc. Pete Docter and Steve talk about Pixar’s scrappy beginnings, why it costs $200 million to make an animated film, and the movie moment that changed Steve’s life.

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He’s a law professor with a Ph.D. in economics and a tendency for getting into fervid academic debates. Over 20 years ago, he and Steve began studying the impact of legalized abortion on crime. John and Steve talk about guns, the death penalty, the heat they took from their joint research, and why it’s frustratingly difficult to prove truth in the social sciences.

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At 27— and without a college degree — she was named chief technology officer of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Today, Marina Nitze is trying to reform the foster care system. She tells Steve how she hacked the V.A.’s bureaucracy, opens up about her struggle with Type 1 diabetes, and explains how she was building websites for soap opera stars when she was just 12 years old.

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He’s one of the world’s leading neuroscientists, with a focus on the physiological effects of stress. (For years, he spent his summers in Kenya, alone except for the baboons he was observing.) Steve asks Robert why we value human life over animals, why he’s lost faith in the criminal-justice system, and how to look casual when you’re about to blow-dart a very large and potentially unhappy primate.

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In addition to publishing best-selling books about pregnancy and child-rearing, Emily Oster is a respected economist at Brown University. Over the course of the pandemic, she’s become the primary collector of data about Covid-19 in schools. Steve and Emily discuss how she became an advocate for school reopening, how economists think differently from the average person, and whether pregnant women really need to avoid coffee.

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He’s a world-renowned magician who’s been performing since he was seven years old. But Joshua Jay is also an author, toy maker, and consultant for film and television. Steve Levitt talks to him about how magicians construct tricks, how Joshua’s academic studies of magic have influenced Levitt’s life, and whether Jesus might have been a magician.

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Steve shows a different side of himself in very personal interviews with his two oldest daughters. Amanda talks about growing up with social anxiety and her decision not to go to college, while Lily speaks candidly about her battle with anorexia and the conversation she had with Steve that led her to seek treatment. 

• SOURCES:
  • Lily Levitt, daughter of Steve Levitt.
  • Amanda Levitt, daughter of Steve Levitt.

• RESOURCES:
  • Can I Ask You a Question? by Amanda Levitt (2020).
  • "Does “Early Education” Come Way Too Late?" Freakonomics Radio (2018). 

• EXTRAS:
  • NEDA Crisis Support.

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He’s a former World Bank economist who became a prolific journalist and the author of one of Steve Levitt’s favorite books, The Undercover Economist. Tim Harford lives in England, where he’s made it his mission to help the public understand statistics. In their conversation, Steve gives Tim some feedback on his new book, The Data Detective, contemplates if it’s possible to tell great stories with data, and Tim explains how making mistakes can be fun.

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He’s so fascinating that Steve Levitt brought him back for a second conversation. Yul Kwon currently works at Google, but he’s been a lawyer, political organizer, government regulator, organ donation activist, and Survivor winner. Steve asks Yul why he’s so altruistic, how Google and Apple are helping track COVID-19, and whether the best way to pick a president might be a reality show.

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He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, where he helped build tools to track the spread of COVID-19. But things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used his obsession with game theory to stage a come-from-behind victory on Survivor.

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