On the show today, I have Shoshana Kordova, creator of Peel Product Marketing.

She truly defines what it means to be a curious product marketer and I think you’ll see what I mean throughout our conversation. 

This episode is for product marketers who…

- Are coming from a writing or editing background and how that experience is a huge plus

- You’re looking to run customer interviews that go beyond surface level

- How to create messaging for very technical products

- How to understand the core needs of sales and why they are asking for enablement

- Why it’s about understanding the story first, then the telling

- And how to break into product marketing at a high tech start up

And so much more. 

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In our conversation, we cover:

00:00 Introduction to Shoshana Kordova's Journey

03:31 Transitioning from Journalism to Product Marketing

06:13 The Importance of Research and Interviewing

08:51 Understanding Messaging through Customer Insights

11:32 The Role of Internal Stakeholders in Messaging

14:19 Exploring Customer Needs and ROI

17:03 Peeling the Onion: Digging Deeper in Conversations

19:44 Crafting Clear Messaging for High-Tech Products

24:57 Understanding Diverse Messaging Needs

29:10 The Power of Visual Storytelling

34:25 Crafting Compelling Stories in Marketing

38:13 Mentoring and Building Confidence in Product Marketing

44:59 Key Messaging Takeaways and What Living is All About

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Find the full transcript at: https://onmessaging.substack.com/p/how-to-get-the-most-from-every-customer

//

Where to find Shoshana: 

Website: https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shoshana-kordova/ 

How To Get Insights From Customer Interviews (Playbook #7): https://jetpack.productivepmm.com/playbooks/playbook-7-customer-insights-and-messaging

Where to find Josh:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging 

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Referenced:

Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/ 

Amanda Natividad: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandanat/ 

Steven Dubner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-dubner-2a066578/ 

Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/ 

The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/ 

The Smithsonian: https://www.si.edu/ 

Marketo: https://business.adobe.com/products/marketo.html 

Hubspot: https://www.hubspot.com/ 

Gong: https://www.gong.io/ 

Peel Product Marketing: https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys

On the show today, we have Pete McCarthy, chief marketing officer at Open Road Integrated Media. 

Before joining Open Road, Pete led consumer insights at Ingram content group, co-founded a marketing saas, and led marketing at places like Penguin, and Random House.

Pete’s been in marketing at start-ups, mid sized companies, large orgs, and as an agency owner.

In our conversation he shares, 

1. How messaging strategy varies across business sizes

2. The method behind the right book, to the right reader, at the right time

3. How customer relationships drive messaging

4. The CMO’s role on messaging

5. Why product marketers are positioned to be marketing executives

And so much more! 

//

In our conversation, we cover:

00:00 Introduction 

01:44 Pete's Marketing Background

13:17 The Evolution of Marketing Messaging

22:20 Positioning and Messaging Across Business Sizes

31:26 How Messaging was Created for Marketing Insights

36:52 Building Relationships in Corporate Marketing

41:19 The Role of a CMO in Messaging

49:49 How a CMO Thinks About Data and Marketing Measurement

01:00:01 Advice for Aspiring Marketing Executives

//

Where to find Pete: 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/ 

Where to find Josh: 

Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging 

//

Referenced:

Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/ 

Jess Johns: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessjohns/ 

Open Road Integrated Media Inc: https://openroadintegratedmedia.com/ 

Ingram Content Group: https://www.ingramcontent.com/ 

Penguin Random House: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/ 

The New York Review of Books: https://www.nybooks.com/ 

Granta Publications: https://granta.com/ 

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/  

Google: https://www.google.com/  

Yahoo: https://www.yahoo.com/  

Marketing Insights

Apple: https://www.apple.com/ 

Microsoft: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/  

Dell Technologies: https://www.dell.com/en-us 

Pixar Animation Studios: https://www.pixar.com/  

GE: https://www.ge.com/  

Costco Wholesale: https://www.costco.com/ 

Walmart: https://www.walmart.com/  

Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/ Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

Listen now on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple.

On the show today, we have Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io.

Before joining Vitally, Jeff worked in product marketing and community at places like Plume Design, Verkada, Eero and Amazon.

Jeff’s been a two time founding product marketer at high-growth B2B SaaS start-ups.

In our conversation he shares,

* His process to creating positioning and messaging at high growth start ups

* The crucial role of customer conversations to develop messaging

* Gaining buy-in from leadership for messaging and positioning

* How to create effective interactive demos

And so much more!

Key takeaways from the conversation:

Rethinking the Product Marketing Role

Jeff argues that the term product marketing doesn’t do justice to what we actually do. In B2B SaaS, product marketers are core to go-to-market strategy, sales enablement, and positioning.

The title “product marketer” might even be limiting our influence.

Jeff suggests that the best product marketers today operate more like strategic advisors, not just content creators.

So, should we be calling it something else? Time will tell or maybe a little debating will too…

Creating Messaging and Positioning in Startups

Step one for building messaging? Talk to the founders. Not about what the product does, but why it exists.

Focusing on the product's features will come later. You should aim to understand the founders' motivations, like:

* Why they built the product.

* How they plan to differentiate it in the market.

* The pain points they identified.

* Their firsthand experiences with these pain points.

When you understand these foundational elements, you can grasp the essence of why the product exists.

This is crucial for building effective messaging that highlights the product's differentiation, especially when entering an existing market. Jeff mentions, in competitive spaces, it's not enough to explain what a product is (like a CRM); you need to tell people why your product is being built the way it is.

The Role of Customer Conversations

You’re never done with customer research.

Messaging should evolve as your customers’ challenges evolve. Jeff shares how he refines messaging at Vitally by constantly listening to sales calls, customer success feedback, and direct interviews.

* Reach out to customers within 30 days of starting. Have open-ended conversations to reveal recurring themes and the specific language customers use to describe their problems and what’s been solved so far. This customer language is invaluable for crafting messaging that resonates authentically.

* Look to ongoing conversations. These reoccurring conversations are essential for continuously refining your messaging and positioning to remain relevant and impactful. This feedback loop helps prevent your messaging from becoming stagnant.

What biggest takeaway here? The importance of humanizing your message by putting yourself in the shoes of the buyer and understanding their perspective.

Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Gaining Buy-In for Messaging and Positioning

Rolling out new messaging isn’t about unveiling a finished product—it’s about bringing internal stakeholders along for the journey.

Here’s Jeff’s process for getting buy-in from leadership:

* Open the Conversation: Present your positioning and messaging not as a final decision, but as a starting point for discussion and feedback. Frame it as "here's what I'm thinking based on what I've heard," inviting thoughts and feedback to build something everyone can rally behind.

* Proof Points: Support your proposed messaging with evidence like quotes from customer interviews and even relevant Reddit posts. Back this up with data from market reports and original research.

* Balancing Perspectives: Recognize that founders and leaders have their own vision, and it's crucial to balance that with the realities observed in the market and feedback from customers. If these perspectives are too far apart, a foundational conversation about potential repositioning might be necessary.

* Engaging Stakeholders Early: Don't present your messaging as a surprise. Involve key stakeholders from different teams like sales, customer success, and product early in the process to get their input and build alignment. This will helps prevent pushback later on. Getting buy-in from the sales leadership is particularly important as they are on the front lines and often have the ear of senior leadership.

* Iterative Testing: View positioning and messaging as something to be tested and refined continuously. Use the sales team to test different messaging (talk tracks, slides decks, etc.) during calls and gather feedback on what resonates.

Brand and Product Messaging Alignment

At early-stage startups, your brand is your product.

Often times, you’ll notice other companies rely heavily on abstract messaging without clearly showing the product in action. We’ve all seen it. Lazy category creation or buzzword messaging.

By making the product essentially the brand, you showcase its value and differentiation directly.

This provides a competitive advantage by reducing the time it takes for potential customers to understand what the software does and how it solves their problems.

In a crowded market, this directness helps stand out and can accelerate customer acquisition by immediately addressing the core question: "What does this product actually do for me?"

As the company grows and the brand becomes more established, the focus might evolve beyond just the product itself.

Creating Effective Interactive Demos

The goal of an interactive demo? Get to the aha moment—fast. People don’t want a guided tour of every button; they want to see how the product solves their problem.

Here are the three types of interactive product demos at Vitally.io:

* The primary overall product tour:

* This is the most in-depth demo and is designed for individuals who have no prior knowledge of Vitally. The goal is to easily educate them by providing quick, succinct steps explaining what the product is and what different features do. As Vitally is a sales-led product, this tour aims to give users a foundational understanding and vocabulary so they can have more informed conversations with the sales team.

* Demos on how to use specific features:

* These demos are more detailed-oriented and are created for their existing customers. The purpose is to drive self-service adoption of the different features within the platform. These demos might be harder to understand for someone who has never used the platform before.

* Blueprints (dual use case for existing customers and prospects):

* These demos came about as Vitally noticed their customers using the product in really great ways. The idea was to turn these customer use cases into interactive product demos to showcase how Vitally can be used or how a user could use it in their own context. These "blueprints" serve a dual purpose by showing prospects the power of Vitally and providing existing customers with ideas and templates on how to further utilize the platform.

How to Know When Messaging Resonates

Directly measuring the impact of messaging can be challenging.

Here are a few indicators of success:

* The sales team isn't reporting confusion or lack of understanding from prospects regarding the product's value proposition.

* Look at business growth metrics like sales revenue increase, adoption of the featured product, customer retention, and competitive win rates. Success in these areas can indicate that the messaging is effectively attracting and engaging the right audience.

* Another insightful metric for a customer success platform like Vitally is Net Revenue Retention (NRR), as it reflects both new revenue and the continued value customers see in the product.

Ultimately, if sales isn’t complaining about the messaging and outputs from product marketing, it suggests what you’ve created is resonating, but that doesn’t mean you can’t make it better :)

Noteworthy Quotes:

"If you’re a product marketer and you're treating positioning and messaging as a check mark versus part of your process, then you're going to fail to evolve and grow your business."

"If your sales team isn't complaining that people aren't understanding your message, then it's probably working."

"In early-stage B2B SaaS, I think brand and product positioning should be one and the same, because you don’t have a ton of flexibility and time to speak on the airwaves."

"When you're really building out an interactive demo, you want to get to those 'aha' moments as quickly as possible. People really don't want to slog through why your product exists—they need to see the value fast."

"Great product marketers aren't just storytellers; they connect the dots between customer insights, competitive intelligence, and sales enablement to drive go-to-market success."

"If you launch messaging and immediately get asked to redo it, that’s a sign it didn’t resonate. A good sign that it's working? Your sales team isn’t asking for changes."

"To get buy-in for messaging, you need to take leaders along for the journey—not just suddenly drop a finished product in their lap and expect them to sign off."

"When creating website messaging for a new product feature, don’t just describe the features—focus on the pain points you solve and why that matters to the customer."

Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it.

In this episode, we cover:

06:20 The Evolution of Product Marketing Roles

10:11 Creating Messaging and Positioning in Startups

16:05 The Role of Customer Conversations

19:11 Gaining Buy-In for Messaging and Positioning

29:07 The Importance of Sales and Customer Feedback

31:23 Brand and Product Messaging Alignment

35:45 Creating Effective Interactive Demos

43:11 Crafting Compelling Website Messaging

51:07 Measuring Messaging Effectiveness

58:05 Final Thoughts on Messaging and Life Lessons

Referenced:

Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/

April Dunford: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/

Julien Sauvage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julien-sauvage/

Vitally: https://www.vitally.io/

Jellyfish: https://jellyfish.co/

Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

Nike: https://www.nike.com/

HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/

Eero: https://eero.com/

Google: https://www.google.com/

Gainsight: https://www.gainsight.com/

ChurnZero: https://churnzero.com/

Navattic: https://www.navattic.com/

We’re Not Marketers: https://www.notmarketers.com/

April Dunford’s Positioning Podcast: https://www.positioning.show/

Created by Josh Chronister

I interview the best product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence.

Listen now on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts!

On the show today, we have Michele Nieberding, the Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter.

Before joining MetaRouter, Michele worked in product marketing Iterable, Qualtrics, and Cvent.

Michele’s been named a two time Top 100 Product Marketing Leader by Product Marketing Alliance.

Here are the key themes and ideas from my time with Michele:

Defining the Difference Between Positioning and Messaging

* Michelle emphasizes that messaging is what gets people excited to talk to you:

"It's that first impression that can make or break the the conversation because if your messaging is really off or really incorrect, you turn people off from the get-go and that's a problem.

And if it really resonates, those are the moments that people are like, 'Oh my gosh, I need to show my boss or my team or whatever. about this tool and that's when the conversations really get going.'"

* She differentiates messaging from positioning: Positioning defines the strategy (where you fit, why you matter), while messaging surrounds that to communicate the story or narrative.

* She uses the analogy of a Christmas present 🎁

"Positioning is the core Christmas present that you're wrapping and then wrapped in a box of messaging and maybe on top is the bow, which could be like your tagline or your elevator or maybe some value props"

Category Creation: A Hot Take

* Michelle expresses a strong opinion against category creation, calling it a "waste of time" and "risky" 🌶️ She believes the rewards are often not worth the risk, especially for smaller companies.

* She shares a story from MetaRouter: Initially built around "Customer Data Infrastructure (CDI)," a vague category, then narrowed to "server-side tag management" (too narrow), and finally settling on "data collection integration."

* The problem with creating a category is that you also have to educate people about the category itself, in addition to your product. This requires significant budget and resources.

* She uses the example of a company called Spekit that coined the term "just in time learning" which was not well received, and eventually pulled back to sales enablement.

* Larger companies might be able to pull it off. Michelle believes Gong successfully coined "conversational intelligence", but even then, customers buy it to solve a problem, not just because of the category.

Michele’s Product Marketing Bible

* Let me introduce you to Michele’s "Product Marketing Bible" – a foundational messaging guide containing everything from elevator pitches and personas to use cases, stats, and customer stories.

* This document serves as a single source of truth for all teams (sales, customer success, partnerships).

* She does quarterly audits of the messaging, updating the document and holding enablement sessions to explain changes.

* The messaging guide is a great starting place for training AI tools to help better know the product, market, competition and value props for future prompting.

Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it.

Using AI for Messaging and Research

* Michelle describes a powerful AI workflow using Perplexity and Google Notebook LM.

* Perplexity is used for research (market trends, competitor analysis) because it provides citations.

* Google Notebook LM indexes internal (pitch decks, documents) and external (websites, PDFs) information, consolidating it with the Perplexity research.

* The mix of both AI tools is great for building battle cards quickly.

* She also recommends "Prompt Genie" for generating better prompts for tools like ChatGPT.

How to Craft Messaging for Technical Products

* Technical messaging can fail if it doesn't clearly communicate the value and impact of the product. It's important to explain why people should care about the technical solution, avoiding reliance on buzzwords.

* Storytelling is crucial, even in technical fields. Use customer stories or strong narratives to help explain the "so what" and why it matters.

* Talk to subject matter experts (engineering, product) and ask questions to help build accurate messaging.

"If you're not saying the right things or using the right verbiage, especially in a technical solution, you can turn people off pretty quickly. There's like some big implications to to getting that right.”

* She uses the example of a news story that went viral about Target exposing a teenager's pregnancy to her father based on her purchasing data. She used this story as a campaign about data protection and not letting Facebook WebMD your customers.

Messaging for Multiple Personas

* MetaRouter's users are often product managers and data scientists, while the budget holders are marketers.

* Find shared pain points and unified outcomes between the different personas.

* She recommends focusing on a "common enemy" to unify messaging to everyone. (Like making sure data is compliant)

* Tailor specific language and benefits to each persona.

* She advocates for quality over quantity, limiting personas to 3-5 max. Too many, and you won't be able to support them effectively.

Knowing When Your Messaging Resonates

* Personal validation comes from hearing positive feedback from the CEO, sales team, or customers who say they've seen the messaging "everywhere."

* From a data-driven perspective, win rates are the most important metric. If deals aren't closing, there's a problem with the messaging.

"If sales isn't hitting their goals, I'm doing something wrong."

* There's a difference between top-of-funnel and bottom-of-funnel messaging.

* Top-of-funnel: Focus on who you are, what you do, and solving the right pain points.

* Bottom-of-funnel: Focus on the technical details, how you're different, and customer testimonials.

* Customer testimonials are not important until bottom-of-funnel.

* Validating messaging is like tuning a radio. She says it's about finding the point where the message "sounds just right," cutting through the noise and static. These moments of clarity are validating and demonstrate the impact of product marketing.

Quick Advice on Messaging

* Clarity is key. Don't try to cram everything into your messaging.

* Consistency is key. Use the same words your customers use. Repeat the message.

* Don't be afraid to be creative! Elevate the core messages with creative campaigns. Find recent news stories you can tie a campaign to. B2B doesn’t have to be boring!

What is Living all about for Michele

Living is all about making the most of every moment. This means finding a balance, whether in professional or personal pursuits, that brings happiness and allows one to feel energized and purposeful. If that spark of life is lost, it is time to make a change.

For Michelle, maintaining this spark involves:

* Finding joy and meaning in work, even if it's challenging.

* Having personal interests, such as golf, that provide enjoyment and teach valuable lessons like patience.

* Embracing new experiences and being willing to learn, even as an adult.

* Seeking activities that re-energize and provide a sense of accomplishment, helping to balance out difficult moment.

Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive each new episode.

Here’s what’s covered in our conversation:

00:00 Introduction to Product Marketing and Messaging

01:25 The Importance of Messaging in Product Marketing

02:45 Michele’s Definition of Messaging

07:26 Category Creation vs. Messaging: A Hot Take

10:07 Understanding Customer Perspectives on Categories

13:10 Maintaining Messaging Consistency Across Teams

16:17 Leveraging AI Tools for Messaging and Research

19:18 Crafting Messaging for Technical Products

22:11 The Role of Storytelling in Technical Messaging

25:20 Engaging with Subject Matter Experts for Accurate Messaging

34:26 The Impact of Targeted Advertising

39:06 Navigating Multiple Personas in Messaging

46:50 Measuring Messaging Resonance

50:04 Understanding the Messaging Funnel

53:32 Key Messaging Takeaways

Referenced:

MetaRouter: https://metarouter.io

Iterable: https://www.iterable.com

Qualtrics: https://www.qualtrics.com

Cvent: https://www.cvent.com

Product Marketing Alliance: https://www.productmarketingalliance.com

Tealium: https://tealium.com

Spekit: https://spekit.com

Gong: https://www.gong.io

We're Not Marketers: https://werenotmarketers.com

Claude AI: https://www.anthropic.com/claude

Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai

ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com

Google NotebookLM: https://www.notebooklm.google

Prompt Genie: https://www.promptgenie.com

Gartner: https://www.gartner.com

Forrester: https://www.forrester.com

G2: https://www.g2.com

Target: https://www.target.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com

Opus Clip: https://www.opus.pro/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com

WebMD: https://www.webmd.com

Riverside: https://www.riverside.fm

Created by Josh Chronister

I interview the best product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence.

Listen now on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple!

On the show today, we have Gab Bujold, messaging strategist and co-host of the We’re Not Marketers Podcast.

Gab’s helped 30+ B2B SaaS worldwide nail their product messaging.

Here are the key themes and ideas from my time with Gab:

Messaging is a Long-Term, Iterative Process:

* Messaging is not a "set and done" task, but rather a continuous initiative that needs to adapt to changing market conditions, competitors, and customer needs.

"Messaging to me is a long-term initiative because it's never a set and done thing, right?... Markets are shifting, new competitors are going in... There's always moving parts."

* You need to prioritize your understanding of why customers buy, love, and stay with your product/service. It’s fundamental to messaging.

The "Product Marketers Aren't Marketers" Debate:

* Gab and his co-hosts (Eric Holland & Zach Roberts) on the We're Not Marketers podcast hold the controversial view that product marketers aren’t traditional marketers.

* The origin of this belief stems from the observation that a PMM’s skills don’t directly translate to a traditional marketing role focused on lead generation.

* Product marketers are viewed more as strategic thinkers, enablers, and business strategists.

"[Speaking about Eric] Basically, I very much believe that PMMs are not marketers... my skills from being a PMM don't really translate to the new role that they're asking me... So he just said, well I mean we're not even marketers and then it kind of just stick..."

* The purpose of the debate is to remove the existential crisis in product marketing, define the role, give more influence and set up guard rails for the function, not to diminish or demean the role.

* I argue the opposite, that product marketers are marketers, because they do the core functions of marketing ("4P's": product, price, promotion, place).

* Gab’s counterargument is that “everyone does marketing” and the focus has been lost on the core principles. It was a fun little debate :)

The Importance of Customer Understanding:

* The process of building a strong messaging foundation starts with a deep understanding of customers.

* Key questions to ask yourself:

* "How are we bringing money today?"

* "Why are we bringing money today?"

* "Why do people love us?"

* "Why do they keep staying with us today?"

* This understanding encompasses customer problems, aspirations, fears, and frustrations.

* Gab’s approach involves reaching out directly to customers to gain understanding through direct conversation. He emphasizes that it's not a sales call, but a genuine effort to understand them

* Active listening and empathy are crucial.

* The goal is to listen to understand, not to listen to fix.

Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive new posts like this every 2 weeks!

Message Market Fit (MMF):

* MMF is defined as the "baby step" to product-market fit.

* MMF is an indicator of whether messaging resonates with the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) under current market conditions.

* It is not a one-time event, but a continuous assessment that requires iteration.

"To me message market fit is kind of like the baby step to product market fit. It's an index that tells you if your messaging resonate with your ICP with the current market conditions.”

* MMF is a sign to double down on marketing efforts and push campaigns harder.

* The components to achieving MMF include: clear ICP, key messages, and the ability to test them effectively.

* 30% of MMF is based on the ICP. If you get the ICP wrong, then your foundation for success is flawed.

Message Testing:

* Message testing requires more than just running A/B tests.

* Key steps:

* Ensure your ICP is clear.

* Make sure you have enough volume to test, to reach statistical significance.

* Categorize your data into qualitative (e.g., ICP alignment, differentiation, emotion, clarity, consistency) and quantitative (e.g., reply rates, conversion) components.

* Gab uses LinkedIn Text Ads as a fast and cost-effective way to test messaging.

* Message testing is done to see if the results match the hypothesis and to make adjustments based on the data.

Differentiation:

* The first step to differentiation is understanding the current market and context.

* Don't copy competitors. Instead, develop a unique point of view that might be considered “unhinged” or “different”. Kind of like We’re Not Marketers.

* Focus on your customers and why they choose you over alternatives.

* The key is to offer a different experience, value, or product, not just a better version of what's already out there.

"The first step to differentiate is to understand what's the current state, right? What's your market? What's your context? What big shift happened? And then ensure you understand why would people go with you instead of going with the competition..."

* Use questions during customer interviews to understand why customers choose you over alternatives to help identify differentiators.

* “What are the 3-5 solutions you looked at before choosing us?”

* Ask prospects “In what category would you put this product?” to gauge how well your positioning is working.

Connection between Business, Product, and Positioning Strategy:

* Messaging falls under the positioning aspect of the overall strategy.

* Your positioning directly impacts how relevant your messages are.

* Understanding your product strategy and what problems you’re trying to solve in the context of the market drives your messaging.

* Business > Product > Positioning strategy. They should all flow together and align. This is where the concept of PMMs being business strategists originates. PMM are the most well-rounded department (or should be!) in the org. they know the market, customers, and product.

The Power of "Without":

* The word “without” in messaging adds definition and eliminates doubt to drive home the point of what a product/service offers and what problems it solves.

* “Without” is a word that can be used in defining positioning, setting clear messaging and written in the actual copy for your audience.

* Example from Freckle.io homepage: “It’s like Clay…without the learning curve.”

Actionable Takeaways:

* Adopt a long-term mindset when it comes to messaging, continuously refining based on feedback and market changes.

* Seek a deep understanding of your customers through direct conversations and listening to understand (not to fix).

* Prioritize message market fit as a crucial step before product market fit.

* When testing messages, don’t start with A/B testing. Ensure you have a clear ICP, a big enough testing volume, and you’re categorizing data correctly.

* Dare to be different by developing your unique POV. Don’t copy competitors.

* Ask prospects “In what category would you put this product?” to gauge how well your positioning is working.

* Leverage the word "without" in your messaging and copywriting to help your audience quickly understand what your product is and the unique value.

Here’s what’s covered in our conversation:

02:04 Are Product Marketers, Marketers?

11:07 Messaging is a Long-term Initiative

13:45 You Need to be Speaking with Customers

17:16 How to Speak with Customer

21:42 Listening to Understand: The Key to Effective Communication

22:34 Junk Food Advice: The Dangers of Surface-Level Messaging

24:35 Understanding Message Market Fit: A Crucial Step for Startups

30:00 Running Effective Message Testing: Steps and Strategies

36:49 Differentiation in Messaging: Standing Out in a Crowded Market

49:55 Aligning Messaging with Business and Product Strategy

55:24 Practical Messaging Advice: Context is Key

Where to find Gab:

* Website: https://pressxtomarket.com/

* Message Market Fit Scorecard: https://mmf-scorecard-lp.carrd.co/

* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/

* Podcast: https://www.notmarketers.com/

Referenced:

We're Not Marketers podcast: https://www.notmarketers.com/

Eric Holland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/

Zach Roberts: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zgroberts/

Product Marketing Alliance: https://www.productmarketingalliance.com/

Yi Lin Pei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/

BizDev Labs: https://www.bizdevlabs.com/

V2 Cloud: https://v2cloud.com/

Mitch Solway: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/

Lenny's podcast: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/podcast

Mindstone: https://www.mindstone.com/

Jonathan Hoffsuemmer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhoffsuemmer/

Message Market Fit Book: https://www.fltrd.in/book

Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/

Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/

Fletch PMM: https://www.fletchpmm.com/

Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/

April Dunford: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/

Freckle.io: https://www.freckle.io/

Clay: https://www.clay.com/

PowerBI: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/power-platform/products/power-bi

Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it.

Created by Josh Chronister

I interview the best B2B product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence.

Listen now on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube!

On the show today, we have Zach Messler, messaging consultant and educator.

Before moving into being a consultant, Zach was heading product marketing at Appian. Zach’s been doing product marketing and messaging for over 20 years.

Here’s what’s covered in our episode:

01:17 The Evolution of Messaging in Product Marketing

18:28 Understanding Audience Resonance and Feedback

23:04 Distinguishing Between Messaging and Copy

29:38 The Simplicity of Messaging

30:56 Understanding Message Clarity

32:06 Conciseness vs. Completeness in Messaging

35:36 Awareness of Bias in Messaging

38:57 The Key to Effective Product Marketing

48:46 Flipping the Message for Audience Engagement

50:07 Living with Purpose and Love

Where to find Zach:

* Website: https://zachmessler.com/

* LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/⁠

Where to find Josh:

* Newsletter: ⁠https://onmessaging.substack.com/⁠

* LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/⁠

Referenced:

* We're Not Marketers: ⁠https://www.notmarketers.com/

* Gomocha: ⁠https://www.gomocha.com/

* Wynter: ⁠https://wynter.com/

* The 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss: ⁠https://fourhourworkweek.com/ ⁠

* Message Clarity Workshop: ⁠https://zachmessler.com/message-clarity-intensive/⁠

* Zach Messler: ⁠https://zachmessler.com/⁠

Thanks for reading On Messaging! This post is public so feel free to share it.

Created by Josh Chronister

I interview the best B2B product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence.

Hey everyone, welcome to On Messaging. I’m your host Josh Chronister.

Creating product messaging that actually resonates with buyers is one of the most difficult tasks of being a product marketer.

You get it.

A lot goes into crafting quality messaging, but you’re still left wondering if it’s good enough to push ‘publish’, and share across the company.

This is the show for product marketers to learn how to craft messaging that resonates emotionally with the buyer, builds credibility, differentiates from the competition and gets in front of your ideal customer.

Join me twice a month as I sit down with top messaging experts and in-house product marketers to dig into the stories, skills, and advice from our friends who are crafting messaging that resonates every day.

On Messaging launched February 4th, 2025.

Thanks for reading On Messaging! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

In this episode, product marketing career coach Yi Lin Pei shares her framework for self-positioning and career differentiation. Yi Lin breaks down the concrete steps to shift from a tactical executor to a strategic growth driver, how to evolve your personal messaging to command executive presence, and why the most important communication skill might be asking "why" before saying "yes".

Key Takeaways

- Position Yourself Like a Product: Apply PMM principles to your career. First, define your "destination" (where you want to go and who you want to be). Second, understand why your "target companies" would care about and value you.

- Shift from Executor to Growth Driver: To make this leap, you must first be exceptional at your foundational skills, like creating messaging that is human and differentiated. Then, focus on building cross-functional influence and thinking like a business strategist by tying your work directly to the company's P&L and growth levers.

- Evolve Your Language for Leadership: To gain executive presence, you must change your language. Shift from talking about "tasks" and "projects" to discussing "programs," "processes," and "playbooks" that you are building to be scalable for the future.

- Master the "T-Shaped" Framework: A "T-shaped" PMM has a broad range of expertise across core functions (research, positioning, launches, enablement) but also develops a deep, indispensable specialty in one or two areas, such as competitive intelligence or domain expertise in a technical field like cybersecurity.

- Tell Your Story (to a 5-Year-Old): If you struggle to tell your own career story, Yi Lin suggests practicing as if you're explaining it to a five-year-old. This forces you to simplify, cut to the chase, and focus on the "why" behind your decisions, which is far more compelling than the "what".

- Use a Consultative Approach: When pitching an idea to leadership, don't just present one option. Instead, offer 2-3 potential options, present a data-backed analysis of the ROI for each, and then give your recommendation. This changes the question from "Should we support this?" to "Which option should we support?".

- The Power of Asking "Why": When a manager gives you an urgent, out-of-left-field request, pause before reacting. Instead of saying yes or no, ask questions to understand the "why" behind the ask. This diffuses defensiveness, builds curiosity, and often reveals the true priority (or that the request isn't the right one).

Chapters(

00:37) Why Yi Lin chose career coaching after a 2020 layoff

(04:40) How leaders can make others comfortable coming to them for advice

(07:59) Applying PMM principles (positioning & differentiation) to your own career

(14:47) The 3-step process to shift from a tactical executor to a strategic growth driver

(19:06) How to balance day-to-day tactical work with long-term strategic efforts

(23:31) Defining the "T-shaped" product marketer

(26:39) The importance of domain experience (and when broad experience is an advantage)

(30:55) A simple exercise for PMMs to apply storytelling to their own accomplishments

(33:12) Tactics to evolve your personal messaging for leadership and executive presence

(40:22) The single most important communication skill for handling urgent requests

(44:22) Yi Lin's answer to "What is living all about?"

About Yi Lin- Yi Lin Pei is a product marketing consultant and career coach who helps product marketers grow in their careers and advises companies on building strong teams.

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/

Subscribe to On Messaging

- Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/

#productmarketing #b2bmarketing #careeradvice #careergrowth

Listen now on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts!

Episode 14: Talya Heller, Owner of Down to a T joins me to break down how to weave competitive intelligence into messaging that actually differentiates.

Talya runs a product marketing consultancy called Down to a T focused on creating a differentiated POV coupled with customer centered sales assets.

Talya is a former engineer, turned product manager, turned product marketer. She came highly recommended for the show and was referred to as, “the competitive intel queen” (thanks Michele Nieberding!). I love it!

I’ve already taken some of what I’ve learned from this conversation and started implementing it in my competitive intel work as a product marketer.

And I think you will too.

During our conversation, you’ll learn:

* Why 10-page messaging docs fail

* How to adapt messaging for multiple personas

* Talya’s go-to ways to mine customer conversations

* How to create “champion decks” and persona one-pagers

* A simple framework for using competitive intel to shape messaging

* How to identify the real differentiators that make customers choose you

* Why ignoring your competitors is the biggest messaging mistake you can make

In our conversation, you’ll find:

00:00 – Why ignoring competitors is the biggest messaging mistake

00:45 – Welcome to On Messaging with Talya Heller, the “Competitive Intel Queen”

02:00 – Talya’s career journey: engineer → PM → product marketer

06:43 – Why she pivoted from product management to product marketing

08:21 – Early impressions of marketers from the PM side

09:44 – The #1 messaging pitfall: sounding the same as competitors

14:33 – How much differentiation do you actually need?

17:45 – Differentiation beyond product: experience, support, and community

18:04 – Using competitive intelligence to shape positioning

22:55 – Why no one reads messaging docs (and what to do instead)

25:42 – Competition is emotional: avoiding bias in research

26:09 – Where to research competitors’ ICPs and customers

29:42 – How to position messaging across multiple personas

36:12 – Equipping your champion to sell internally (champions decks & one-pagers)

42:46 – Aligning sales and marketing on messaging and assets

47:53 – Simple tools & playbooks for enabling marketing teams

55:20 – Localization isn’t translation: global messaging mistakes

1:01:18 – One piece of messaging advice to implement tomorrow

1:02:36 – What living is all about

1:03:22 – How to support Talya + where to subscribe to her newsletter Spill the T

Where to Find Talya:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/talyahellermba18/

Down to a T Consulting: https://www.downtoat.co/

Spill the T Newsletter: https://www.downtoat.co/newsletter

Where to Find Josh:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/

Follow On Messaging:

Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛

Thanks for reading On Messaging with Josh Chronister! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Created by Josh Chronister

I interview the best product marketers and tech companies who create messaging that resonates with their buyers. Come learn from them, so you can hit ‘Publish’ with confidence.

Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛

On the show today, I have Ryan Yackel, Chief Marketing Officer at Databand.ai

Ryan is a former sales engineer, turned product marketer, turned chief marketing officer. Also, a children’s book author with an animated version available on Youtube.

This was a phenomenal conversation. Ryan came prepared with props, in the trenches product marketing stories, frameworks for narrative design and book recommendations. Plus we had a lot of good laughs.

//

During our conversation, we discuss

* Why product marketers make natural CMOs, and why founders trust leaders with a product marketing background

* How narrative design helps teams avoid feature dumps and instead tell a differentiated “old way vs. new way” story

* Real-world examples of narrative design applied at Tricentis, KeyFactor, Databand, and IBM

* The role of “sales narratives” in equipping reps to tell memorable stories instead of commodity feature checklists

* How Ryan uses Google Gemini and Notebook LM to accelerate competitive research with frameworks like Obviously Awesome

* Why AI is a useful starting point for research but dangerous to rely on for final messaging

* The major shift in product marketing from startups (new logo focus) to enterprises (internal seller mindshare)

* Three tactics for influencing large sales teams: AMA sessions, “What’s New” newsletters, and quick-turn collateral

* Why “great go-to-market beats a better product every time,” with lessons from competing against HP Quality Center

* Cautionary takes on PLG in enterprise software, and why not all SaaS playbooks translate to technical products

And so much more.

//

In this episode, you’ll find

00:00 – The “secret sauce” in messaging: telling a story buyers remember

00:35 – Intro to Ryan Yackel, CMO at Databand

01:31 – Why product marketers make great CMOs

02:17 – From sales engineer to product marketing leader

03:43 – Why recruiters seek CMOs with product marketing backgrounds

06:02 – Product marketing as the headlights guiding demand gen

08:21 – Analogies that explain the role of product marketing

09:36 – Narrative design: framework for product launches

12:29 – Case study: Continuous Testing at Tricentis

13:26 – Case study: Machine identity management at KeyFactor

14:22 – Case study: Data observability at Databand

15:30 – Bringing narrative design into IBM product launches

17:44 – Where narratives live: sales decks, messaging docs, and pitches

21:36 – Using reference points like Datadog to simplify complex products

22:07 – Building narratives for multi-product organizations

24:40 – Using AI (Gemini + NotebookLM) for competitive research

28:05 – Prompt engineering for category deep dives (Collier Rosin Kranz example)

30:12 – Framework mashups: April Dunford + corporate visions + AI research

32:27 – The “Red Box vs. Green Box” exercise for sales differentiation

36:35 – Teaching sales teams to sell stories, not features

38:17 – How messaging shifts from startup to enterprise companies

43:28 – Three tactics to win sales mindshare in large enterprises

46:52 – AMA sessions, newsletters, and internal podcasts for sales enablement

50:11 – Contrarian opinions: AI for messaging, PLG caution, GTM beats product

55:46 – Why go-to-market strategy beats having a “better” product

58:23 – Ryan’s #1 piece of messaging advice: define your secret sauce

1:00:56 – What life is all about: gratitude, faith, and perspective

1:03:38 – Where to find Ryan and his children’s book Pancakes and Mr. Bear

//

Where to Find Ryan (and more links):

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanyackel/

* Why A Product Marketer Should Be Your Next CMO

* Defeat Your Prospect’s Status Quo with Unconsidered Needs

* How narrative design works in product marketing

* April Dunford Books

* My Book | Watch for Free

//

Where to Find Josh:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/

Follow On Messaging:

Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛

Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛

Episode 12: Madeleine Work, Senior Product Marketing Manager at Chili Piper (https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeleinework/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to break down how to create messaging that reps actually use and customers remember.

We talk about defining clear platform messaging, getting internal buy-in without watering it down, and why launches are never really one-and-done. We also dive into sales feedback loops, creative copy that still converts, and how Madeleine uses tools like Gong, Wynter, and Mutiny to test what’s working.

//

💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:

1. How to A/B test website messaging

2. How to create continuous feedback loops

3. Getting internal buy-in on your messaging

4. Balancing creativity and clarity in messaging

5. Why product launches are on going and why you should repeat yourself

//

🎙️ In our conversation, we cover: 

00:00 – Teaser: How Madeleine crowdsourced and tested messaging across her company

00:29 – Intro to Madeleine and what you’ll learn in the episode

01:44 – From content to product marketing: how the transition happened

03:24 – What she loved (and didn’t love) about content marketing

06:01 – The challenge of getting 100% messaging buy-in

06:55 – The collaborative H1 test: value, competitor, and persona buckets

08:53 – Running messaging through Wynter and Mutiny

12:21 – The importance of above-the-fold copy and first impressions

14:08 – UI images in messaging: show, don’t tell

15:10 – How Chili Piper defined its platform messaging

15:59 – “Demand conversion”: the phrase they landed on

17:47 – Messaging in a competitive landscape (and naming your competitors)

19:32 – How they brainstormed the phrase “demand conversion”

21:02 – Creativity vs. clarity: writing how you talk

23:44 – “No more complaints about unfair lead distribution”: voice-of-customer in action

25:18 – Marketing to marketers: easier and harder

26:13 – Why marketers don’t click UTM links—but give amazing form responses

28:46 – How Madeleine continuously refines messaging over time

29:53 – Sales feedback loops and scathing voice notes

30:23 – Refresh cadence: product pages, competitor pages, then restart

31:59 – PDF collateral vs. web content: keeping everything updated

33:35 – Launches Madeleine’s proud of (and what she learned)

35:12 – Why no one noticed the chat launch—and how they relaunched it

36:55 – The importance of repetition in product marketing

38:33 – Using Gong to track if messaging is landing with reps

40:04 – What living is all about: being a little uncomfortable

41:28 – Where to find Madeleine and her “Madeleine Love” folder

//

🔦 Where to Find Madeleine:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeleinework/

🔦 Where to Find Josh:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f 

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696 

//

Follow On Messaging:

Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛

Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛

Episode 11: Emily Pick, Lead Product Marketing Manager at Clari (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypick/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to dive into platform messaging, tailoring narratives for different buyer personas, and how to create a unified message across multiple products. We also unpack the balance of feature-level messaging, brand consistency, and customer words.

//

💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:

Influencing the product roadmap as a product marketer

Why most B2B messaging gets stuck in feature-function battles

How to create messaging for buying committees without losing clarity

How to transition from single-product messaging to platform-level narratives

//

🎙️ In our conversation, we cover: 

00:00 – Nobody’s buying a product—they’re buying a solution to their pain

00:29 – Intro to the episode and what you’ll learn from Emily

01:23 – Emily joins the show and shares her love for messaging

02:26 – Why Emily stepped away from business books and back into travel stories

03:17 – Backpacking, Rick Steves, and what travel taught Emily

06:26 – Travelers, chaos, and the joy of unpredictable experiences

07:20 – Introduction to platform vs. product messaging

07:56 – The history of Clari and their transition to a revenue platform

09:18 – Defining your category: what Clari wants to be known for

12:02 – Using positioning as the North Star for platform messaging

12:42 – Positioning vs. branding: how Emily differentiates the two

13:37 – Platform-first vs. product-level messaging strategy

14:08 – Moving from product features to solution-based messaging

16:01 – When product-specific messaging becomes important

16:54 – Mapping solutions to pains and personas before products

17:47 – Aligning product launches to the company narrative

18:36 – Crafting baseline and higher-order product messaging

19:37 – How Clari avoids building “off-strategy” features

19:48 – How product marketers can earn influence on the roadmap

21:29 – Bringing market research and analyst feedback to PMs

22:57 – Owning collateral and influencing alpha/beta feedback loops

23:12 – Building trust with PMs by being useful and aligned

24:02 – When Emily starts messaging and enablement for new features

24:32 – Using launch tiers and customer impact scores

25:56 – Examples: low impact vs. high impact, and how timing shifts

28:08 – Why Clari focuses on retention as much as acquisition

29:32 – The cost of new customers vs. caring for existing ones

30:30 – A call for PMMs to think beyond net-new revenue

31:00 – Tailoring messaging for the full buying committee

32:22 – Adoption depends on frontline users, not just executives

33:18 – Mapping personas to solutions and jobs-to-be-done

34:17 – Pre- and post-sale assets for each user type

36:45 – Collaborating with customer education to drive product adoption

38:39 – Clari’s position in a competitive space—and how to stay ahead

39:39 – Winning with relevance when features are at parity

40:57 – Creating preference without getting stuck in feature wars

42:49 – Signs you’re losing a deal: when the buyer uses your competitor’s language

44:34 – Selling against pain instead of relying on features

45:55 – How Emily and team enable sales with messaging that resonates

48:38 – Why customer words and Q&A insights power better messaging

49:41 – Tools Emily loves: Laudable and UserEvidence

50:49 – Letting Q&A fuel your copy and message refinement

52:04 – Emily’s #1 messaging tip: replace jargon with customer language

53:06 – What is living all about? Emily’s personal perspective

55:22 – Where to connect with Emily online

56:20 – Closing thanks and wrap-up

//

🔦 Where to Find Emily:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypick/

🔦 Where to Find Josh:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f 

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696 

//

Follow On Messaging:

Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛

On the show today, I have Gaspard Pastural, creator of PurpleOceans and a B2B SaaS Product Marketing Consultant. 

🎧 During our conversation, you’ll learn:

- Why go to market isn’t a one time event

- How differentiate with relevance instead of features & pricing

- Why B2B websites should be consumption first, then conversion

- Sales and marketing messaging should be aligned but not identical

//

In our conversation, we cover:

00:00 – Why most B2B websites fail: lead gen vs. consumption

01:36 – Gaspard’s LinkedIn writing process and content philosophy

02:32 – The real goal of differentiation: be the most relevant choice

04:15 – What “relevance” means in practice: use cases over categories

06:06 – Why you’ll never out-feature the gorilla in your space

08:05 – The risk of trying to be everything for everyone

09:55 – How poor differentiation breaks messaging, positioning, and conversions

10:55 – Marketing your difference (not just saying you’re different)

11:56 – Sales vs. marketing messaging: aligned, not identical

13:00 – The analogy of explaining your job to everyone at once

14:07 – Three key differences: who, how, and intent

15:34 – Sales is adaptive; marketing is orchestrated

16:03 – Homepage strategy: guide consumption, don’t push conversion

17:29 – How to enable sales without dictating scripts

19:56 – PMMs as collaborators, not message enforcers

21:21 – Messaging as a structural alignment challenge

22:32 – Why your messaging must support the full buying committee

24:48 – Persona-based pages and website structure as messaging tools

28:08 – How PMMs can earn internal trust to shift company messaging

30:25 – The power of step-by-step change vs. the one-big-pitch trap

32:01 – Underrated GTM principle: reverse-engineer your launch

33:56 – How to do message testing without budget (and what not to do)

36:27 – Cheap, scrappy message testing strategies that work

38:14 – Why content is a long-term play, and why sales is faster for insights

41:17 – Final takeaway: reverse engineer everything to de-risk your work

42:53 – What living is all about: “Having no regrets and being proud”

45:36 – Where to find Gaspard online

//

👉 Where to find Gaspard

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaspardpastural/

Website: https://gaspardpastural.com/ 

Substack: https://gaspardpastural.substack.com/ 

👉 Where to find Josh

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/  

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg 

On the show today, I have Collin Mayjack, Principle Product Marketing Manager at GoFundMe.

Before joining GoFundMe, Collin worked in product marketing at Oncue and Dataro and is the creator of Holy Shift.

//

What you’ll learn:

Why Collin believes clarity always beats cleverness in B2B messaging—and how to avoid “junk food” copywriting

The seven messaging principles Collin uses to drive alignment across product, marketing, and sales

How to translate complex products into human-first stories that resonate with buyers (and actually get repeated by sales)

The secret to testing messaging without fancy tools—including Collin’s scrappy process using real customer calls

How to navigate internal messaging politics—balancing SEO, brand voice, and product truths without losing the message

A framework for driving influence across teams—even when you don’t own the pen or the process

How to write messaging that sticks: Collin’s 20-second talk track technique that sales teams love

Why side projects are the ultimate messaging gym—and how they make you a stronger communicator at work

A fresh take on feature vs. benefit messaging (hint: your buyers are smarter than you think)

How Collin builds buy-in by leading with positioning before assets—and how you can do the same

And so much more.

//

In our conversation, we cover:

00:00 – Intro: Welcome Collin Mayjack to the show

01:33 – From pastor to product marketer: Translating complexity into clarity

03:53 – Why side projects make you a better writer and messenger

06:17 – The origin of Collin’s 7 messaging principles

08:32 – #1: Clear is better than clever (and why most messaging fails here)

09:57 – #2: Differentiate or die—how to bring product strengths to the surface

10:55 – #3: Jargon is the enemy—cut through corporate fluff

11:25 – #4: You can’t say it all—focus on what matters most

12:24 – #5: Customers do care about features (with a twist)

14:21 – #6: Talk to your champion like a human

15:50 – #7: Good messaging flows from good positioning

18:22 – Bonus: The best messaging is clear and clever—but clarity wins

19:17 – How Collin tests messaging without fancy tools (and why he goes rogue)

20:44 – Partnering with PMs to pitch new features to real customers

21:43 – Using customer reactions to validate and refine messaging

22:37 – Real-world naming feedback: letting customers vote live

23:31 – Testing messaging in startups vs. larger companies

24:49 – Scrappy tactics: using social, email, and founders to test ideas

26:00 – How to choose the right customers for feedback

26:58 – The politics of advisory boards and enterprise obsession

28:11 – The PMM cheat code: bring the story, get invited to the table

29:04 – Balancing product messaging with SEO and brand voice

30:33 – Winning influence by starting with positioning, not copy

31:31 – Using Emma Stratton’s VBF framework to earn trust and traction

33:01 – The “mild sauce” effect: how messaging evolves through compromise

33:59 – The power of pen-to-paper: why the strategist shapes the outcome

35:45 – Influence, humility, and the politics of feedback

36:43 – Why being likable matters more than being right

38:10 – How Collin enables the sales team with clear, human messaging

39:21 – “Tuesdays with Enablement”: internal sessions that drive adoption

40:14 – How Collin builds 30-second sales stories that actually stick

41:43 – The James story: an example of sales messaging that works

43:07 – Talk tracks over taglines: why real talk wins

43:49 – Being active in Slack and jumping on sales calls to support deals

44:55 – Lightning round: One messaging tip you can implement tomorrow

46:21 – What is living all about? Collin’s personal reflection

47:00 – Where to find Collin and lift him up

//

👉 Where to find Collin

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/ 

Holy Shift Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/company/holy-shift-pod/ 

👉 Where to find Josh

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/  

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg 

//

🎙️Referenced

Alex Eaton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/ 

Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/ 

Gab Bujold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/ 

Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/ 

Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/

On the show today, I have Alex Eaton, Director of Product Marketing at UserEvidence.

Before joining UserEvidence, Alex worked in product marketing at Help Scout and Lessonly.

What you’ll learn:

1. The 3 traits that separate great product marketers from good ones—and why “execution” is the most underrated

2. How Alex avoided a messaging disaster at UserEvidence—and the simple question that unlocked the right positioning3. Why most messaging gets overlooked inside companies—and how Alex ensures people actually use it4. A tactical breakdown of messaging docs that get read—why yours should be under two pages

5. The “gut tension” test Alex uses to know when messaging isn’t ready yet—and how to push past it

6. How to tailor messaging for multiple personas without breaking consistency

7. The role of customer evidence in brand messaging—and why UserEvidence leads with faces, not product shots

8. How to enable sales without being the “messaging cop”—Alex’s exact approach to feedback, coaching, and internal buy-in

9. What Alex learned from working with messaging consultants like Fletch—and when to bring in outside help

10. The mindset shift from “being right” to “driving outcomes”—why collaboration beats ownership in product marketing

And so much more.

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In our conversation, we cover:

00:00 – Intro & Welcome

00:51 – What Separates Good from Great Product Marketers

03:32 – How to Get Teams to Rally Behind You

06:19 – The Anxiety of Surface-Level Messaging

07:48 – Execution Over Strategy: Getting In the Weeds

09:23 – How Alex Nearly Blew the Messaging at UserEvidence

12:02 – The Phrase That Almost Made It: "Evidence-Based Content Platform"

13:57 – The Simpler, Stronger Message: Customer Evidence Platform

14:56 – Rolling Out the Messaging: Site, Deck, Personas, and More

15:43 – Connecting Problem and Solution: From Evidence Gap to Platform Fit

17:36 – Working With Fletch on Messaging: Why External Voices Matter

21:37 – Simplifying Messaging for Global Understanding

23:23 – Leading With Customer Stories in Messaging

25:51 – Becoming the Best at Customer Evidence—In Their Own Marketing

27:31 – Leading With Personas, Not Product

28:26 – Why Real Faces > Stock Photography

31:32 – The "Two-Page Messaging Doc" Philosophy

34:06 – How to Layer in Nuance After the Message Sticks

36:24 – Giving Feedback Without Micromanaging Sales

41:43 – Enabling Sales to Use the Message Consistently

44:53 – Tailoring Messaging for Personas Without Losing Focus

50:11 – Final Takeaway: The Power of Gut Tension

51:36 – What’s Living All About?

53:13 – Where to Connect With Alex

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👉 Where to find Alex

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/ 

👉 Where to find Josh

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ 

Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/  

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg 

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🎙️Referenced

Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/ 

Jillian Hoefer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianmacnulty/ 

Evan Huck: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhuck/ 

Ray Rhodes: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-rhodes-a0672568/ 

Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ 

Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/ 

David Ogilvy: https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X 

Jason Oakley: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/ 

UserEvidence: https://www.linkedin.com/company/userevidence/ 

Lessonly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lesson-ly/ 

Gong: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gong-io/ 

Help Scout: https://www.linkedin.com/company/help-scout/ 

Fletch: https://www.linkedin.com/company/fletch-pmm/