“Ok, Doomer!” is a podcast series by the European Leadership Network and its New European Voices on Existential Risk, aka NEVER network, exploring the heart of the man-made existential risks threatening humanity, our planet, and life as we know it.
Following our original six-part series exploring the climate crisis, threats from nuclear war, biological risks, and the dangers of uncontrolled AI, we’re back with a special four-part series examining the distinct threats posed by nuclear weapons.
Join us as we discover what a nuclear failsafe review is, demystify how new technologies and nuclear weapons interact, examine the role of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in keeping us from the nuclear precipice, and more!
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Welcome to “How To Save The World” the final episode of Ok, Doomer!, the podcast series by The European Leadership Network’s (ELN) New European Voices on Existential Risk (NEVER) network. Hosted by the ELN’s Policy and Impact Director, Jane Kinninmont, and Project and Communications Coordinator, Edan Simpson, this episode takes a step back to assess what we’ve learned about existential and global catastrophic risks in previous episodes and what comes next.
In “What’s the Problem?”, Jane and Edan wrap up the series by reflecting on key themes, including the importance of long-term planning and collaboration across different sectors and countries.
We then turn to Edan’s “How To Fix It” panel, featuring Sophie Howe, the former Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, dubbed by the UK’s Guardian newspaper as “the world’s first minister for the unborn” Sophie served as the Welsh Government’s first-ever Future Generations Commissioner. Her role gave her a statutory obligation to serve as “the guardian of the interests of future generations in Wales” and to provide guidance and advice to the government and public bodies in Wales when making decisions to ensure that they think about the effects on people in the future as well as now.
We are also joined by NEVER member Florian Ulrich Jehn. Floria is a Senior Researcher in Environmental Science at AllFed (Alliance to Feed the Earth in Disasters ) where they focus on food security, climate, and civilisational resilience. Florian is passionate about existential risk education and runs a newsletter, “Existential Crunch”, that serves as a living literature review on the topic.
Our third and final guest is NEVER member Nadine Andersen, who works as a Research Assistant at the SIPRI Climate Change and Risk Programme. She previously worked with UNDP, UNOPS, and IUCN, and her projects included addressing environment and resilience issues in Kenya, empowering youth for nature conservation in Sri Lanka, and planning an international workshop on hydro-diplomacy in Thailand.
The panel discusses their own contributions to the field of existential risk mitigation, what work is being undertaken at the local, national, and international levels, and the importance of citizen involvement in making long-term policy decisions and ensuring that policymakers create the appropriate governance structures to properly tackle existential and global catastrophic risks.
In this episode’s Turn Back The Clock segment, Jane is joined by historian Frank Gavin, who takes us back to the early days of the nuclear non-proliferation movement. Frank explains how, in the 1960s, the world was deeply pessimistic about the ability to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. Yet, against the odds, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) was established, a major success in reducing the global nuclear threat. This historical perspective offers a lesson in how bold, coordinated action can lead to breakthroughs, even in times of intense geopolitical tension. Frank also discusses parallels between the Cold War nuclear crisis and today’s challenges, such as AI and climate change, emphasising the importance of international cooperation.
In The Debrief, Jane and Edan reflect on the key takeaways from the series, emphasising the power of collective action and long-term thinking. They touch on the optimism shared by panellists like Sophie Howe, who called for "making long-term governance sexy," and how common sense should be at the heart of addressing global risks. They also revisit the importance of democratic engagement, ensuring that the public is part of the conversation on existential risks. Finally, they highlight Frank Gavin’s powerful reminder that history has shown us that, with enough effort, we can pull back from the brink of catastrophe.
As the series comes to a close, Jane and Edan thank their listeners and guests for joining them on this journey. While this is the end of their six-part series, they promise to return with one-off episodes in the future, starting with an exploration of nuclear weapons in the age of AI and emerging technologies.
Catch up on previous episodes, and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of ‘Ok Doomer!
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Fake Brains & Killer Robots
Season 1 · Episode 5
Friday, August 2, 2024 • Duration 01:32:33
Welcome to “Fake Brains & Killer Robots”, the fifth episode of “Ok Doomer!” the podcast series by The European Leadership Network’s (ELN) New European Voices on Existential Risk (NEVER) network. Hosted by the ELN’s Policy and Impact Director, Jane Kinninmont, and the ELN’s Project and Communications Coordinator, Edan Simpson, this episode will focus on the potential existential risks associated with artificial intelligence.
Jane kicks off the episode with “What’s the Problem?” We hear from Alice Saltini, a Policy Fellow at the European Leadership Network who has been focusing on the interactions between AI and nuclear command and control systems.
Alice discusses the immediate threats of AI, such as hallucinations and cyber vulnerabilities in nuclear command and control systems, emphasising the need for caution, regulation and international cooperation to mitigate the risks associated with AI and nuclear weapons.
Edan’s “How To Fix It” panel features Dr Ganna Pogrebna, Executive Director of the Artificial Intelligence and Cyber Futures Institute at Charles Sturt University in Australia. Ganna is also the Organiser of the Behavioural Data Science strand at the Alan Turing Institute, the United Kingdom’s national centre of excellence for AI and Data Science in London, where she serves as a fellow.
She’s joined by NEVER member Konrad Siefert. Konrad is co-CEO of the Simon Institute for Long-term Governance, which works to improve the international regime complex for governing rapid technological change and representing future generations in institutional design and policy processes. Previously, he co-founded Effective Altruism Switzerland.
Our third and final guest is NEVER member Nicolo Miotto; Nicolò currently works at the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Conflict Prevention Centre. Nicolò’s research foci include arms control, disarmament and non-proliferation, emerging disruptive technologies, and terrorism and violent extremism.
The panel discusses how best to govern, regulate, and limit the risks of AI and what that actually means; the role of multilateral institutions such as the UN in implementing these efforts; what potential opportunities and setbacks new forms of AI could have for arms control, especially regarding WMD proliferation; and to what extent AI developers are aware of the possible misuses of new technologies and how best to safeguard against them.
Moving on to “Turn Back the Clock,” we look back to a time in history when humanity faced a potential existential threat but pulled back from the brink of destruction. On today’s episode, Jane is joined by Dr Jochen Hung, Associate Professor of Cultural History at Utrecht University in the Netherlands. They discuss historical perspectives on technological change and its impact on society, drawing parallels between the anxieties and hopes of people in the 1920s concerning modern technologies and those of the present day.
Finally, as always, the episode is wrapped up in “The Debrief,” where Jane and Edan review the episode to make sense of everything they've covered.
Catch up on previous episodes, and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of "Ok Doomer!
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Going Viral
Season 1 · Episode 4
Monday, June 17, 2024 • Duration 01:16:07
Welcome to “Going Viral”, the fourth episode of “Ok Doomer!” the podcast series by The European Leadership Network’s (ELN) New European Voices on Existential Risk (NEVER) network. Hosted by the ELN’s Policy and Impact Director, Jane Kinninmont, and the ELN’s Project and Communications Coordinator, Edan Simpson, this episode will examine the existential and global catastrophic threats posed by new biological technologies.
Jane kicks off the episode in “What’s the Problem?” Where we also hear from Jasper Götting, a research fellow in the biosecurity team of Convergent Research and a member of our NEVER network, whose work focuses on road mapping technical biosecurity interventions, and technological mitigation techniques against biological risks, such as how we could potentially disinfect the air to guard against future pandemics. Jasper breaks down the different types of biological risks, including natural versus engineered pathogens, natural spillovers, accidental releases, and deliberate releases, as well as a discussion on what previous pandemics, including SARS and COVID, taught us when preparing for potential future pandemics.
Edan’s “How To Fix It” panel features Angela Kane, a member of the ELN’s Senior Network with over 35 years of experience working for the United Nations, most recently as the assistant secretary general for political affairs and the High Representative for disarmament. Angela now works as a senior advisor to the Nuclear Threat Initiative, primarily supporting them on their bio initiatives to reduce global catastrophic biological risks. She’s joined by NEVER member Anemone Franz, a physician with experience in pandemic preparedness and biosecurity. Anemone is an Emerging Leaders in Biosecurity Fellow at John Hopkins Centre for Health Security and has previously worked on vaccine platform development. Lastly, Dr. Emil Iftekhar rounds up the panel. He recently graduated from his PhD and is currently working as a political affairs intern at the United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs at the Implementation Support Unit of the Biological Weapons Convention in Geneva, Switzerland. The panel discusses whether or not world leaders have learnt the right lessons from COVID-19, the current state of global biological threat governance at organisations such as the UN, and what’s needed in terms of public sector, private sector, and governmental collaborations to properly screen and mitigate the existential risks posed by biological threats – especially in the context of other technologies like AI and synthetic DNA.
Moving on to “Turn Back The Clock”, where we look back to a time in history when humanity was faced with a potential existential threat but pulled back from the brink of destruction. On today’s episode, Jane is joined by Bekki Field, a Senior Associate Fellow at the European Leadership Network and a former head of pandemic preparedness for the UK government. They discuss the links between pandemics and existential threats, observations on disinformation and public trust, as well as the political, societal and economic benefits of pandemic prevention and preparedness.
Finally, as always, the episode is wrapped up in “The Debrief,” where Jane and Edan review the episode and all their guests to make sense of everything covered. Catch up on previous episodes, and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of ‘Ok Doomer! Follow the ELN on:
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Climate change: A hot topic
Season 1 · Episode 3
Tuesday, March 26, 2024 • Duration 01:02:10
Welcome to the third episode of “Ok Doomer!” The podcast series by The European Leadership Network’s (ELN) New European Voices on Existential Risk (NEVER) network. Hosted by the ELN’s Policy and Impact Director, Jane Kinninmont, and the ELN’s Project and Communications Coordinator, Edan Simpson, this episode will look at the question of climate change - arguably the existential risk that people around the world are mobilised by the most.
We set the episode up in “What’s the Problem?” and hear from Olivia Blake, Member of Parliament for Sheffield Hallam (UK), on how the issue of climate change resonates for voters on the doorstep in Britain and how politicians can link global and local concerns. Olivia discusses the effects of natural habitat destruction, such as moorland burning in the UK’s Peak District national park, her work running Citizen Assemblies to create policies needed to combat the climate crisis, and shares her advice for young people on how to make a difference.
This is followed by our “How to fix it?” panel discussion hosted by Edan.
This week, Edan is joined by Ziya Meral, Senior Associate Fellow at the European Leadership Network. Ziya is a researcher, advisor and programmes director specialising on global trends shaping defence, security and foreign policy in the Middle east and Turkey. He's also the co-leader of the Climate Change and (In)security project, run by Oxford University and the British Army’s Centre for Historical and Armed Conflict Research.
Joining Ziya is NEVER member Jakob Gomolka - a researcher at Berlin-based sustainability think tank Adelphi. Jakob is primarily interested in the catastrophic risks associated with climate change, as well as the second order and long-term effects of climate change, such as the governance of geoengineering technologies, and how a warming world will affect geopolitical competition
Alongside Ziya and Jakob, we are joined by NEVER member Jieqiong Duan, a PhD student at the University of Ghent. Jieqiong’s research centres on the relationship between the European Union and China, primarily relating to climate diplomacy and the effects of great power competition on existential risk.
NEVER member, Katie Duffy completes this week’s panel. Katie is the Programme Manager on climate resilience and infrastructure at British Expertise International and focuses mainly on the socio-economic effects of climate change as well as advising private sector clients on how best to approach the green transition.
The panel discuss topics including whether the increasingly noticeable effects of climate change provides an incentive for governments to cooperate and work together, especially when they are divided on so many other topics. They also cover whether the scientific solutions that are currently being developed are being utilised sufficiently by governments and policymakers, and what those working in other areas of existential risks can take from the climate change movement, especially from the angle of mobilising young people and the general public.
After our panel discussion, we “Turn Back the Clock” where Jane is joined by atmospheric chemist and Nobel Peace Prize recipient Professor Susan Solomon. Professor Solomon served on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the team of scientists whose atmospheric research informed the UN’s Montreal Protocol – one of the few UN protocols to be universally ratified, and the success of which means that the hole in the ozone layer should seal at some point in the middle of the century.
Finally, the episode is wrapped up in “The Debrief”, where Jane and Edan look back on the episode and their guests to make sense of everything covered.
Catch up on previous episodes, and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of ‘Ok Doomer!"
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Nuclear War - What is it good for?
Season 1 · Episode 2
Tuesday, January 23, 2024 • Duration 01:13:19
Nuclear War, What is it good for?” is the second episode of “Ok Doomer!” the podcast series by The European Leadership Network’s (ELN) New European Voices on Existential Risk (NEVER) network. Hosted by the ELN’s Policy and Impact Director, Jane Kinninmont, and the ELN’s Project and Communications Coordinator, Edan Simpson, this episode will look at the question of nuclear war - the original man-made existential threat to humanity.
What would it mean for the world if a nuclear war broke? How close we are to one? And how worried should we be?
As always, we set the episode up in “What’s the Problem?” and in this episode, we hear from Dr Rishi Paul, Senior Policy Fellow at the ELN and Dr Oliver Meier, Policy and Research Director at the ELN, on the basics of how nuclear deterrence works and an introduction to nuclear arms control.
Joining Edan on this episode’s panel discussion are John Pope from the USA. John is the Chief Audience Officer at the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, the organisation that has maintained the Doomsday Clock since 1947 in response to the advent of nuclear weapons.
Valeriia Hesse, a NEVER member from Ukraine, is research coordinator at the Central European University in Vienna and a fellow at the Odesa Centre for Non-proliferation (OdCNP), where she focuses on nuclear policy and risk reduction.
The final panel guest is ELN Policy Fellow Dr Olamide Samuel from Nigeria. Olamide leads the ELN’s work on bolstering the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and is also an honorary fellow at the University of Leicester.
The panel discuss risk reduction, what it is and how it works in practice. They also discuss whether nuclear disarmament is still possible in today’s environment, the role that ordinary people can play, and how they can use their voice.
Jane is joined by Sahil Shah, Senior Fellow and Programme Manager at the Council on Strategic Risks for ‘Turn Back The Clock’, where we explore an example from history when humanity avoided an existential risk.
Finally, the episode is wrapped up in “The Debrief”, where Jane and Edan look back on the episode and all their guests to make sense of everything covered.
Catch up on previous episodes, and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of ‘Ok Doomer!
Risk Reduction Classification by Wilfred Wan at UNIDIR
UNIDIR = United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research
ICAN = International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons
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The End of the World for Beginners
Season 1 · Episode 1
Wednesday, November 15, 2023 • Duration 01:05:12
Welcome to the first episode in this series, with your hosts, the ELN’s Jane Kinninmont and Edan Simpson. This episode kicks off by introducing the series, and the broad topic of existential risk in the feature “What’s the Problem?” speaking to Adam Thomson, Director of ELN.
Edan’s panel discussion features the Rt. Hon. Lord Browne of Ladyton, Des Browne, and NEVER members Eva Siegmann and Arthur Duforest. They discuss what existential crises are, how they’re defined and how we recognise and classify them, and the impact of existential risks like nuclear war and climate change, whilst exploring interconnected solutions to these complex issues.
In “Turn Back The Clock” we revisit one of the tensest periods in the Cold War - the Cuban Missile Crisis. Jane speaks to Dr Marion Messmer, senior research fellow in the International Security Programme at Chatham House and also Alexey Gromyko, Director of the Institute of Europe of the Russian Academy of Sciences (IE RAS), who also happens to be the grandson of the former USSR’s foreign minister who was in office during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They dissect this critical historical event, putting the focus on the strategic “game of chess” between the superpowers, the initial successes of the Soviets in evading American detection, to the turning point brought about through careful diplomacy and mediated negotiation.
And as always, we’ll end with “The Debrief”, to make sense of everything we’ve covered in this packed first episode.
Listen now, and don’t forget to subscribe for future episodes. The next episode will focus on nuclear weapons and their role in the field of existential risk.
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Trailer
Wednesday, November 15, 2023 • Duration 01:44
“Okay, Doomer!” the podcast by NEVER, is a 6-part series by the European Leadership Network and their New European Voices on Existential Risk, aka NEVER network, embarking on an exploration into the heart of the manmade existential risks threatening humanity, our planet, and life as we know it.
Each episode delves into a different existential crisis, from the looming shadows of nuclear war and the escalating perils of climate change to the uncharted territories of disruptive AI technologies and biological threats. “Okay, Doomer!” not only illuminates these daunting threats but also highlights the positive endeavours undertaken by many individuals and organisations worldwide to mitigate these risks. Listeners will hear inspiring stories of resilience, innovation, and hope, showcasing the unshakeable spirit of humanity in the face of formidable challenges. This series seeks to shed light on the collective human effort to navigate and overcome the perils we have created.
“Okay, Doomer!” is more than a podcast; it's a call to action, offering practical ways for listeners to get involved in these critical issues.
Join us on this journey as we bring to light the risks we face and celebrate the tireless efforts of those working towards a safer, more sustainable future.
Subscribe to “Okay, Doomer!” and be a part of a conversation that could define the future of our planet and species.
Nukes & Other New Tech
Season 1 · Episode 7
Thursday, October 24, 2024 • Duration 01:08:21
Welcome to “Nukes & Other New Tech”, a bonus episode of “Ok, Doomer!”, the podcast series by The European Leadership Network’s (ELN) New European Voices on Existential Risk (NEVER) network. Hosted by the ELN’s Policy and Impact Director, Jane Kinninmont and Project and Communications Coordinator, Edan Simpson, this episode takes a deep dive into the interplay between nuclear weapons and emerging and disruptive technologies...
In today’s special bonus episode, Jane and Edan are taking a deep dive into an ELN project exploring the emerging risks posed by the intersection between new technologies and nuclear weapons.
In “What’s the Problem?” Jane is joined by Belen Bianco, a former a Policy Fellow at the European Leadership Network and current UN Official., Belen provides a welcome introduction to the ELN’s nuclear weapons and new technologies project. Belen also explains why the ELN decided to analyse the aggregate effects of new technologies on nuclear decision-making, as opposed to exploring the technologies in isolation, and outlines the potential future threat landscape in this field.to look at nuclear policy and nuclear risks which are evolving in a context where we don't just have one rapidly evolving technology, we have multiple technologies, all evolving fast and all of which are interacting with each other.
The episode then turns to Edan’s “How To Fix It” panel, which featuresfeaturing Rishi Paul, a Senior Policy Fellow at the European Leadership Network, Héloïse Fayet, a member of the Younger Generation Leaders Network (YGLN) member and Research Fellow at the Security Studies Centre of IFRI (French institute of international relations), and Kim Westerich-Fellner, a NEVERew European Voices and Existential risk member and Mercator Fellow on International Relations and Visiting Fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR)...
The panel discusses the ELN’s Guardrails and Self-Assessment (GSA) Framework for Emerging and Disruptive Technologies (EDTs), which was designed to raise awareness and familiarise stakeholders at various levels with the complex interplay between a multitude of technologies, NC3 systems, and nuclear weapons decision-making.focus on an ELN project looking into the interaction between nuclear weapons and new technologies.
In this episode’s “Turn Back The Clock” segment, Jane is joined by Julia Berghofer, a Senior Policy Fellow at the European Leadership Network. I, who's talks about a previous time when a major nuclear armed state adopted a systematic approach to reducing some of the key risks that might come up when nuclear weapons intersect with new technologies.n light of the Biden Administration’s decision to undertake a failsafe review of the United States’ nuclear command, control, and communications systems, Julia provides a history of nuclear failsafe reviews, and what’s changed since the United States undertook its first such review in the early 1990s.
And finally, in “In The Debrief”, Jane and Edan reflect on the a really interesting the episode and share, sharing their key takeaways and favourite moments. . They talk about Héloïse’s point around France not having an integrated understanding of EDTs, how Julia shone insight on failsafe reviews and they reflect on how useful it’s been to have such an in-depth this conversation with people from different European countries, providing a more diverse set of insights to see how things actually work and how they actually play out in different parliaments and different governments with different ways of thinking.
Catch up on previous episodes, and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of ‘Ok Doomer!
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Find out more information on the ELN's Nuclear and New Technologies project here.
Welcome to “Avoiding Accidental Armageddon: Nuclear Fail-Safe Reviews”, the second episode of our second Ok, Doomer! podcast series. Hosted by the ELN’s Deputy Executive Director Bekki Field and outgoing Project and Communications Officer Edan Simpson, this episode explores how nuclear fail-safe reviews can reduce the risk of accidental, mistaken or unauthorised nuclear use.
To begin, Bekki and Edan are joined once again by Julia Berghofer, Programme Lead for the ELN’s Nuclear Weapons and New Technologies programme, who explains what “fail-safe” means in the nuclear realm and why safeguards must be regularly reviewed.
Julia also outlines the ELN and Asia-Pacific Leadership Network’s work since 2024 examining how different nuclear-armed states understand fail- safe, what terminology they use, what measures they have adopted and how openly they discuss them.
Edan’s panel features Deborah Rosenblum, Joel Petersson Ivre and Héloïse Fayet. Together, they discuss:
Why fail-safe reviews can be politically controversial.
How trust, deterrence and geopolitical competition shape states’ approaches.
Whether fail-safe reviews can serve as confidence - and security-building measures.
How much transparency is useful or realistic.
What role non-nuclear-weapon states can play in supporting wider discussion.
Moving on to “Turn Back the Clock”, Bekki is joined by Tom McKane. They discuss the history of nuclear fail-safe reviews, the reasons non-nuclear-weapon states have had limited engagement with the issue, and what earlier efforts can teach policymakers seeking to reduce nuclear risks today.
Finally, in “The Debrief”, Bekki, Edan and Julia reflect on the tensions between secrecy and transparency and the different national approaches to fail-safe.
Catch up on previous episodes and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of “Ok, Doomer!”
Nuclear Bombs and Bots
Season 2 · Episode 1
Tuesday, August 11, 2026 • Duration 38:11
Welcome to “Nuclear bombs and bots”, the first episode of our second series! Hosted by the ELN’s Deputy Executive Director, Bekki Field, this episode explores the relationship between new “disruptive” technologies and nuclear weapons.
To start the episode, Bekki is joined by Edan Simpson, ELN Project and Communications Officer, and Julia Berghofer, Head of the ELN’s Nuclear and New Technologies programme, to break down what a “new technology” actually is, and why they matter for nuclear weapons policy.
Edan’s “How To Fix It” panel features Younger Generation Leaders Network (YGLN) members Alice Saltini and Ksenija Trajkovska; Alice is a former ELN Policy Fellow, where she spearheaded our research projects in nuclear and new technologies. Nowadays, she is the Senior Research Lead at the Rhode Island School of Design and a Non-Resident Expert on AI at the James Martin Centre for Non-Proliferation Studies; Ksenija Trajkovska is a Senior OSINT & CBRN Analyst at Fenix Insight and an incoming Research Analyst at Open Nuclear Network.
We ask our panel:
Whether we focus so much on the risks posed by emerging technologies that we ignore their potential benefits to nuclear weapons systems?
And how important is training for military personnel to recognise and challenge the biases that can evolve from an increasing use of AI in military systems?
Moving on to “Turn Back the Clock”, where we look at how new technologies have historically affected nuclear weapons, Bekki is joined by Alexandra Bell, a YGLN alumnus, former Deputy Assistant Secretary for Nuclear Affairs in the Bureau of Arms Control, Deterrence, and Stability (ADS) at the U.S. Department of State, and the President and CEO of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. Bekki and Alex discuss the history of these technological advancements, how technology changes threa perceptions, and how equipped the expert community is to cope with the pace of technological change.
Finally, as always, the episode wraps up with “The Debrief,” where Bekki, Edan and Julie review everything they’ve covered.
Catch up on previous episodes and make sure to subscribe to future episodes of “Ok Doomer!”
Referenced in the podcast: The AI lens of cognitive warfare: Why LLMs language bias is a security risk by Ihor Samokhodskyi
