Matters: A podcast from Clio – Details, episodes & analysis

Harvard professor and best-selling author Sarah Lewis reveals how visual narratives—from courtroom photography to AI-generated imagery—hold the power to either uphold systemic bias or dismantle it. 

The conversation moves beyond the surface of courtroom aesthetics and virtual backdrops to examine how legal technologies can either reinforce systemic inequalities or become tools for greater inclusion. From the evolving role of AI in justice to reimagining legal education, this discussion offers a thoughtful exploration of how seeing differently can lead to justice done differently.

In this conversation, we explore:

• The gift of failure: How the legal profession can move past risk-aversion to embrace "near wins" as fuel for justice.
• Narrative as evidence: Why historical civil rights victories like Brown v. Board of Education relied as much on photographers as they did on lawyers.
• The ethics of AI imagery: The dangers of historical bias in machine learning and how tech companies can design for "representational excellence."

Mentioned in this conversation:

• The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery by Sarah Lewis
• The Black List created by Franklin Leonard

After surviving nearly two decades in solitary confinement, Ian Manuel brings a deeply personal perspective to the meaning of justice. Drawing from his lived experience, he challenges the legal system to pair accountability with empathy—calling for both technological and systemic changes to ensure no one is defined solely by their worst mistake.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Ian’s journey from a juvenile life sentence to becoming an advocate for people the system overlooked.
• The psychological toll of solitary confinement and the resilience of the human spirit.
• How legal technology can be used as a tool for liberation.

Mentioned in this conversation:

• My Time Will Come: A Memoir of Crime, Punishment, Hope, and Redemption by Ian Manuel.
• The Equal Justice Initiative (EJI) and Bryan Stevenson.

In our last episode, we explored how to adopt a client-centered mindset at your firm. In this episode, we’ll build on that discussion to understand how to truly put yourself in your clients’ shoes. By doing so, you’ll be able to provide better service, and to align your firm’s interests with those of your clients.

Specific topics highlighted in this episode include:

• The importance of understanding who your clients are
• Techniques you can use to gain insight into your clients’ wants and needs
• The value of the client journey mapping technique
• Which technologies and practices make things easier for clients
• How to increase Access to Justice by serving “the latent legal market”

This episode features three practicing attorneys who excel at providing modern client service. To hear what they have to say, listen now!

Our Guests:

Inti Martínez-Alemán

Inti Martínez-Alemán, a third-generation lawyer from Honduras, is the winner of the 2020 Reisman Award for Excellence in Client Service. Inti is bilingual and has been practicing law since 2008. Inti practices business, civil, and employment litigation. His bilingual office, Ceiba Fôrte Law Firm, serves Hispanics in the state of Minnesota, and in New York State. Ceiba Fôrte’s fees adapt to the needs of every client—especially for hardworking Hispanics, foreigners, expats, transplants, and other immigrants. Foreign clients and companies prefer Ceiba Fôrte because the firm offers alternative fee arrangements like flat fees, contingency, and hybrids. You can follow Inti on Twitter at @LegalMines

Rachel Roche

Rachel Roche LL.M. TEP, Founder and Solicitor Director of Roche Legal in York, England, is an experienced, fully-qualified private client solicitor. In 2018, Rachel was honored as the Law Society of England & Wales’ Sole Practitioner of the Year. Roche Legal focuses on Wills & Probate, Powers of Attorney, and Court of Protection work in the UK. In addition to her role at the firm, Rachel is also a Commissioner for Oaths, a full member of the Society of Trust & Estate Practitioners (STEP), and a Full Accredited Member for Solicitors for the Elderly (SFE). Rachel is also the winner of the 2020 Reisman Award for Legal Innovation. You can follow Rachel on Twitter at @Roche_Legal

Tiffany Graves

Tiffany M. Graves serves as Pro Bono Counsel at Bradley, a 500-attorney law firm with offices across the southern United States. In her role, Tiffany oversees the development and administration of the firm’s pro bono programs. Prior to joining Bradley, Tiffany was the executive director of the Mississippi Access to Justice Commission, where she led a 21-member commission created by the Mississippi Supreme Court and promoted its initiatives to improve and expand access to civil justice to the nearly 700,000 Mississippians living in poverty. In addition, Tiffany previously served as interim director and adjunct professor for the Pro Bono Initiative at the University of Mississippi School of Law, and as executive director and general counsel for the Mississippi Volunteer Lawyers Project. You can follow Tiffany on Twitter at @tiffmgraves

So far during this season of Matters, we’ve looked at the “why” behind client-centered lawyering—but now, it’s time to start digging into the “how”. In this episode and the ones that follow, we’ll look at practical steps you can take at your law firm to become more client-centric and, as a result, more successful.

In this episode, Jack and Nefra welcome three client-centered attorneys and an esteemed law professor to discuss how to adopt a client-centered mindset at your firm. Naturally, having the right mindset is key to everything else that follows—so you can’t have a client-centered law firm without first cultivating a client-centered mentality.

This episode covers:

• How attorney and legal social media expert Mitch Jackson puts his clients at the center of everything he does—and why you should, too
• Why Shreya Ley and her husband, Colin, built a legal practice from the ground up with their target clients in mind
• How 2020 Reisman Award Winner Inti Martínez-Alemán has envisioned new ways of enhancing the client experience
• Why legal scholar Bill Henderson thinks law schools can better train young lawyers, and how law firms can build more client-centered cultures

Ready to adopt a client-centered mindset at your firm? Give this episode a listen!

Our Guests:

Mitch Jackson

Jon Mitchell “Mitch” Jackson is a senior partner and founding attorney of Jackson & Wilson. He has represented clients in the Orange County, CA, area for over 30 years, and he is committed to providing the trustworthy and skilled legal representation people need during the most difficult times of their lives—after a serious accident or the loss of a loved one. He has met with considerable success in this endeavor, recovering millions on behalf of the injured, including numerous multimillion-dollar settlements and verdicts. Also known as “The Streaming Lawyer,” Mitch is a legal social media expert who speaks regularly across the US and teaches other lawyers how to market themselves better. You can follow Mitch on Twitter at @mitchjackson

Shreya Ley

Shreya Ley is a Lawyer-Human with LayRoots. While on a surfing trip in Westport, WA, she and her partner in life and business chose to open a practice focusing on estate planning and asset protection. They have a special interest in how small business owners can protect their personal assets, continue to provide for their families in case of an emergency, and protect their intellectual property. A graduate of the University of Texas at Austin, Shreya received her J.D. at Tulane University Law School in 2010. You can follow Shreya on Twitter at @layyourroots

Inti Martínez-Alemán

Inti Martínez-Alemán is a third-generation lawyer from Honduras. Inti is bilingual and has been practicing law since 2008. Inti practices business, civil, and employment litigation. His bilingual office, Ceiba Fôrte Law Firm, serves Hispanics in the state of Minnesota, and in New York State. Ceiba Fôrte’s fees adapt to the needs of every client—especially for hardworking Hispanics, foreigners, expats, transplants, and other immigrants. Foreign clients and companies prefer Ceiba Fôrte because the firm offers alternative fee arrangements like flat fees, contingency, and hybrids. You can follow Inti on Twitter at @LegalMines

Bill Henderson

Bill Henderson joined the Indiana University Maurer School of Law faculty in 2003 following a visiting appointment at Chicago-Kent College of Law and a judicial clerkship for Judge Richard Cudahy of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. Drawing upon more than a decade of research, Bill is a sought-after commentator on the changing legal marketplace and has accumulated numerous awards. In the last five years, he has been named one of the 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America by the National Law Journal, the Most Influential Person in Legal Education by National Jurist Magazine, and one of the inaugural group of “Legal Rebels” profiled by the ABA Journal. You can follow Bill on Twitter at @wihender

Looking at the legal industry through a client-centered lens is already transforming how legal services are delivered. In this episode, we’re joined by three guests: a legal consultant and blogger, the president of a bar association, and a practicing Big Law attorney to discuss the major impact that a shift towards client-centered lawyering is having across the legal industry. From the effects that client-centric legal practice has already had on this industry to the effects it will have in the years ahead, this discussion looks at some of the reasons why legal practice will never be the same.

Specific talking points featured in this episode include:

• The short- and long-term significance of client-centered lawyering, at an industry-wide level
• How client-centered lawyering can unlock "the latent legal market"
• Why prioritizing client needs is the key for law firms adapting to changing market conditions
• How adopting a client-centered mindset can help firms address the Access to Justice gap
• What for-profit law firms can learn about client service from non-profit and Pro Bono legal service providers

Our Guests:

Jordan Furlong

Jordan Furlong is a legal industry analyst and consultant based in Ottawa, Canada. In addition to being an author and the founder of the award-winning Law21 blog, Jordan is a Fellow of the College of Law Practice Management, and Past Chair of the College’s InnovAction Awards. He’s the Strategic Advisor in Residence at Suffolk University Law School in Boston, and he serves as co-chair of the Board of Directors for its Institute for Law Practice Management and Innovation. He’s also taught or guest-lectured in courses at Suffolk Law, Queen’s Law, and Osgoode Hall Law School that focus on preparing students to provide legal services deep into the 21st century. You can follow Jordan on Twitter at @jordan_law21

Charlene Theodore

Charlene Theodore is President of the Ontario Bar Association in Ontario, Canada—the 10th woman and first Black woman to lead the OBA since its founding in 1907. She has served as In-House Counsel for the Ontario English Catholic Teachers’ Association since 2012, and in 2020 she was voted one of the Top 25 Most Influential Lawyers in Canada. A leader and trailblazer, Charlene is held in high esteem for her ability to find practical solutions to complex legal issues, as well as the most challenging issues facing the bar and the justice system today. An engaging speaker armed with compassion, Charlene is sought after by those who want to shift perspectives and change the ways leaders and employees think. You can follow Charlene on Twitter at @CharleneYYZ

Tiffany Graves

Tiffany M. Graves serves as Pro Bono Counsel at Bradley, a 500-attorney law firm with offices across the southern United States. In her role, Tiffany oversees the development and administration of the firm’s pro bono programs. Prior to joining Bradley, Tiffany was the executive director of the Mississippi Access to Justice Commission, where she led a 21-member commission created by the Mississippi Supreme Court and promoted its initiatives to improve and expand access to civil justice to the nearly 700,000 Mississippians living in poverty. In addition, Tiffany previously served as interim director and adjunct professor for the Pro Bono Initiative at the University of Mississippi School of Law, and as executive director and general counsel for the Mississippi Volunteer Lawyers Project. You can follow Tiffany on Twitter at @tiffmgraves

So far this season, we've introduced the concept of client-centered legal practice, explored why lawyers tend to be so resistant to change, and looked at what's broken within our legal system. On this episode, we'll compare the broken model of legal service delivery—the "lawyer-centered" model—with the client-centered model, which is advantageous for both your clients and your firm.

Featuring interviews with three practicing attorneys who are all innovating in their fields, this episode covers:

• The core differences between the lawyer-centered and client-centered models of legal service delivery
• The disadvantages of the lawyer-centered model
• The advantages of the client-centered model
• The effects that these different models have on lawyers and clients
• What it's like to operate a client-centered law firm, in practice

Episode Four's guests include Kim Bennett, Founder of K Bennett Law LLC; Erin Levine, CEO & Founder of Hello Divorce and Managing Attorney at Levine Family Law Group; and Justin Osborn, Partner at Osborn Gambale Beckley & Budd PLLC. Listen in for their perspectives!

CLE Credit: This episode is eligible for 0.5 hours of CLE credit in the State of Florida. Florida Bar members should visit the Florida Bar Member Portal and enter CLE code 5525.

Our Guests:

Kimberly Bennett

Kimberly Y. Bennett, Esq., is the Founder of K Bennett Law LLC, a boutique subscription legal services law firm that helps small businesses protect their brands and grow profitable and sustainable seven-figure organizations. Kim defines herself as an innovator, entrepreneur, legal industry disruptor, and a business coach—who happens to be a lawyer. In addition to growing and managing her firm, Kim coaches women building modern businesses, speaks on legal topics, teaches workshops for new entrepreneurs, and is a co-organizer of two legal tech communities: Atlanta Legal Tech and Atlanta Legal Hackers. Kim’s mission is to help foster a permanent shift in the way law firms deliver legal services to clients. You can follow her on Twitter at @kbennettlaw

Erin Levine

Erin Levine, Esq. is CEO and Founder of Hello Divorce, a do-it-yourself divorce navigator startup, and she is Managing Attorney at Levine Family Law Group, a full-service family law firm in Oakland, CA. Erin is working to democratize divorce by ensuring that “every American who wants a divorce has access to affordable, accessible and ethical legal assistance.” Erin has won numerous awards during her career, including the 2020 James I. Keane Memorial Award for Excellence in eLawyering, the 2019 ABA “Women in LegalTech” and Fastcase 50 Honoree awards, and the 2019 Reisman Award for Legal Innovation. You can follow Erin on Twitter at @hello_divorce

Justin Osborn

Justin Osborn is a founding member of Counsel Carolina (Osborn Gambale Beckley & Budd PLLC), whose personal advocacy for fairness and progressive social policies led to the firm’s RV-based mobile services program. A former insurance adjuster and insurance defense lawyer, Justin now represents clients against the same corporate and insurance interests he once defended. A proud tribal citizen of the Cherokee Nation and one of the first in his family to obtain a college degree, Justin has rededicated his career to making legal services more equitable and universally accessible. You can follow Justin on Twitter at @justin_osborn

In this episode of Matters, we'll examine how the current legal system is broken, in which particular areas of legal service delivery the industry is failing, why change is direly needed—and what that change might look like.

This episode’s discussion points include:

• Specific areas where the current legal system is dysfunctional
• Major issues of unmet need within the legal market
• How the existing legal system fails clients—and legal professionals
• What needs to shift in order to build a better legal profession
• Ways for law firms and legal professionals to start changing the status quo

Episode Three’s guests include Erin Levine, CEO & Founder of Hello Divorce and Managing Attorney at Levine Family Law Group; Jordan Furlong, legal analyst and creator of the Law21 blog; and Nika Kabiri, a JD Ph.D who helps businesses of all sizes make better decisions. Listen in for their perspectives!

CLE Credit: This episode is eligible for 1.0 hours of CLE credit in the State of Florida. Florida Bar members should visit the Florida Bar Member Portal and enter CLE code 5524.

Our Guests:

Erin Levine

Erin Levine, Esq. is CEO and Founder of Hello Divorce, a do-it-yourself divorce navigator startup, and she is Managing Attorney at Levine Family Law Group, a full-service family law firm in Oakland, CA. Erin is working to democratize divorce by ensuring that “every American who wants a divorce has access to affordable, accessible and ethical legal assistance.” Erin has won numerous awards during her career, including the 2020 James I. Keane Memorial Award for Excellence in eLawyering, the 2019 ABA “Women in LegalTech” and Fastcase 50 Honoree awards, and the 2019 Reisman Award for Legal Innovation. You can follow Erin on Twitter at @hello_divorce

Jordan Furlong

Jordan Furlong is a legal industry analyst and consultant based in Ottawa, Canada. In addition to being an author and the founder of the award-winning Law21 blog, Jordan is a Fellow of the College of Law Practice Management, and Past Chair of the College’s InnovAction Awards. He’s the Strategic Advisor in Residence at Suffolk University Law School in Boston, and he serves as co-chair of the Board of Directors for its Institute for Law Practice Management and Innovation. He’s also taught or guest-lectured in courses at Suffolk Law, Queen’s Law, and Osgoode Hall Law School that focus on preparing students to provide legal services deep into the 21st century. You can follow Jordan on Twitter at @jordan_law21

Nika Kabiri

Nika Kabiri has spent 20+ years studying how people make decisions in a variety of contexts. She has a JD from the University of Texas, a PhD in Sociology from the University of Washington, and currently teaches Decision Science at the University of Washington. Nika has worked with businesses of all sizes, including Amazon, Microsoft, VMware, Sony, Oakley, PepsiCo, General Mills, Anheuser-Busch InBev, the Seattle Seahawks, Zillow, Expedia, Smartsheet—and Clio. She is also an Advisor at Madrona Venture Labs, where she helps startups get their footing. You can follow Nika on Twitter at @nikakabiri

No risk, no reward—in this second episode of season two of Matters, we'll take a high-level view of the legal profession—chiefly, why lawyers tend to be so risk-averse, and the effects that this cautiousness has on legal practice, innovation, and firm sustainability.

For this discussion, our hosts, Jack and Nefra, welcome renowned legal author Mitch Kowalski, Big Law attorney and Access to Justice expert Tiffany Graves, and award-winning law professor and scholar Bill Henderson.

Specific discussion points include:

• Why so many lawyers and law firms have been slow to adapt to technological changes, as compared to other industries.
• Why change is scary for many legal professionals, and how resistance to change stifles progress in the industry.
• How adopting a client-centered mindset encourages legal professionals to be more adaptive and innovative.
• What progress has been made in recent years, especially as the industry responded to Covid-19.
• Why lawyers' emphasis on risk management can have strong negative consequences when applied to law firm business decisions.
• How thinking like a businessperson emphasizes smart risk-taking, and why lawyers should adopt a business mindset.

Listen in for these takeaways and more!

CLE Credit: This episode is eligible for 0.5 hours of CLE credit in the State of Florida. Florida Bar members should visit the Florida Bar Member Portal and enter CLE code 5520.

Our Guests:

Mitch Kowalski

Mitch Kowalski is a lawyer, writer, keynote speaker, legal operations consultant, and author of the critically-acclaimed books The Great Legal Reformation and Avoiding Extinction: Reimagining Legal Services for the 21st Century. A College of Law Practice Management Fellow and a Fastcase 50 Innovator Award honoree, Mitch has general counsel, international law firm partner, and Board of Directors experience. As a legal consultant, he helps teams and law firms to deliver value and perform at higher levels. Mitch speaks on legal service innovation at conferences around the world and writes for a variety of publications about the challenges of legal operations. You can follow him on Twitter at @MEKowalski.

Tiffany Graves

Tiffany M. Graves serves as Pro Bono Counsel at Bradley, a 500-attorney law firm with offices across the southern United States. In her role, Tiffany oversees the development and administration of the firm’s pro bono programs. Prior to joining Bradley, Tiffany was the executive director of the Mississippi Access to Justice Commission, where she led a 21-member commission created by the Mississippi Supreme Court and promoted its initiatives to improve and expand access to civil justice to the nearly 700,000 Mississippians living in poverty. In addition, Tiffany previously served as interim director and adjunct professor for the Pro Bono Initiative at the University of Mississippi School of Law, and as executive director and general counsel for the Mississippi Volunteer Lawyers Project. You can follow Tiffany on Twitter at @tiffmgraves.

Bill Henderson

Bill Henderson joined the Indiana University Maurer School of Law faculty in 2003 following a visiting appointment at Chicago-Kent College of Law and a judicial clerkship for Judge Richard Cudahy of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. Drawing upon more than a decade of research, Bill is a sought-after commentator on the changing legal marketplace and has accumulated numerous awards. In the last five years, he has been named one of the 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America by the National Law Journal, the Most Influential Person in Legal Education by National Jurist Magazine, and one of the inaugural group of “Legal Rebels” profiled by the ABA Journal. You can follow Bill on Twitter at @wihender.

Learn more about Clio at https://www.clio.com

With Season Two of Matters focusing on client-centered legal practice, it makes sense to start with the question: Why is client-centric legal practice important?

In this first episode, our hosts speak with four experts—a practicing lawyer, a legal consultant and writer, a data scientist, and a legal professor—to provide a macro-level view of client-centered lawyering, examine why it’s vital to the future of legal service delivery, and give you a glimpse of what to expect on this season of the show.

Specific discussion points include:

• What “client-centered” means in a legal services context
• Why client-centric practice is a revolutionary concept in legal
• Why so many law firms are hesitant to put client-centered practices into place
• How the “client experience is king” model is reshaping other industries—as well as legal
• How the legal industry has evolved over time with regards to technology—and where it may go in the future

Joining Jack and Nefra are guests Kim Bennett, Jordan Furlong, Nika Kabiri, and Bill Henderson. Don’t miss what they have to say!

CLE Credit: This episode is eligible for 0.5 hours of CLE credit in the State of Florida. Florida Bar members should visit the Florida Bar Member Portal and enter CLE code 5519.

Our Guests:

Kim Bennett

Kimberly Y. Bennett, Esq., is the Founder of K Bennett Law LLC, a boutique subscription legal services law firm that helps small businesses protect their brands and grow profitable and sustainable seven-figure organizations. Kim defines herself as an innovator, entrepreneur, legal industry disruptor, and a business coach—who happens to be a lawyer. In addition to growing and managing her firm, Kim coaches women building modern businesses, speaks on legal topics, teaches workshops for new entrepreneurs, and is a co-organizer of two legal tech communities: Atlanta Legal Tech and Atlanta Legal Hackers. You can follow Kim on Twitter at @kbennettlaw 

Jordan Furlong

Jordan Furlong is a legal industry analyst and consultant based in Ottawa, Canada. In addition to being an author and the founder of the award-winning Law21 blog, Jordan is a Fellow of the College of Law Practice Management, and Past Chair of the College’s InnovAction Awards. He’s the Strategic Advisor in Residence at Suffolk University Law School in Boston, and he serves as co-chair of the Board of Directors for its Institute for Law Practice Management and Innovation. He’s also taught or guest-lectured in courses at Suffolk Law, Queen’s Law, and Osgoode Hall Law School that focus on preparing students to provide legal services deep into the 21st century. You can follow Jordan on Twitter at @jordan_law21 

Nika Kabiri

Nika Kabiri has spent 20+ years studying how people make decisions in a variety of contexts. She has a JD from the University of Texas, a PhD in Sociology from the University of Washington, and currently teaches Decision Science at the University of Washington. Nika has worked with businesses of all sizes, including Amazon, Microsoft, VMware, Sony, Oakley, PepsiCo, General Mills, Anheuser-Busch InBev, the Seattle Seahawks, Zillow, Expedia, Smartsheet—and Clio. She is also an Advisor at Madrona Venture Labs, where she helps startups get their footing. You can follow Nika on Twitter at @nikakabiri

Bill Henderson

Bill Henderson joined the Indiana University Maurer School of Law faculty in 2003 following a visiting appointment at Chicago-Kent College of Law and a judicial clerkship for Judge Richard Cudahy of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. Drawing upon more than a decade of research, Bill is a sought-after commentator on the changing legal marketplace and has accumulated numerous awards. In the last five years, he has been named one of the 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America by the National Law Journal, the Most Influential Person in Legal Education by National Jurist Magazine, and one of the inaugural group of “Legal Rebels” profiled by the ABA Journal. You can follow Bill on Twitter at @wihender

In season two of Matters, we'll explore what it means to truly be client-centered, how client-centered practices can improve access to justice, and how law firms are addressing a monumental shift in consumer expectations. Learn more at www.clio.com/podcast.