Zach sits down with Matt and Paige, a married couple from the DFW area who have been together since they were 14 years old, and who now host their own podcast for spouses and partners of people navigating addiction. What sounds like a high school sweetheart story quickly opens into something far more complicated: a decade-long opioid addiction, financial abuse, gaslighting, panic attacks, and a slow, hard-won rebuild that took most of their adult lives.

Matt frames their relationship in three chapters: young and naive kids figuring out what love even is, the dark middle years where addiction quietly dismantled the life they were trying to build, and the current chapter where, for the first time in 25 years, they describe themselves as genuinely on equal footing. Paige's side of the story carries the weight of what spouses often carry alone. She didn't know it was addiction for years. She thought he was just treating her badly. And when his recovery finally stabilized, her body held the bill: panic attacks, rage, and a grief that had nowhere to go while things were still dangerous. She eventually came to a kind of peace, but only after Matt began holding real accountability, not just staying sober.

The conversation covers the question of when an addict actually earns credit from their partner, the long gap between sobriety and true marital recovery, how they talk to their kids about addiction, and what it means to finally feel known by someone rather than just tolerated. This is a candid, unsentimental look at what it takes to come back from something that breaks most couples apart.

Key Takeaways

• Sobriety and marital recovery are not the same clock. For Matt and Paige, it took nearly a decade after Matt got sober for Paige to feel genuinely safe again.
• When one partner gets well, the other one often falls apart. Paige's panic attacks and depression showed up four years into Matt's sobriety, once she finally felt safe enough to stop holding everything together.
• Feeling known is different from knowing someone. Matt describes the shift in their marriage as the moment they both stopped managing each other and started actually seeing each other.
• Validation is not a soft skill. Paige names Matt learning to validate her experience, not dismiss or minimize it, as one of the most meaningful turning points in their relationship.
• Putting your marriage first is not selfish parenting. Matt and Paige kept the marriage as the anchor even through the chaos of raising kids, and they're clear that a thriving marriage is part of what their kids need to witness.
• The spouse's story often goes untold. There are far more resources for addicts than for the partners who stay, hold things together, and absorb the fallout. Matt and Paige built their podcast specifically to fill that gap.
• Recovery for the partner requires genuine accountability from the addict, not just behavior change. Paige needed Matt to name what he had done to her before her body would let her relax.
• Curiosity is what keeps a long marriage alive. Even 25 years in, Matt describes Paige as someone he's still discovering, and he credits that sense of ongoing curiosity as part of what keeps them close.

Guest Info

Matt and Paige Hosts of Till the Wheels Fall Off, a podcast focused on the experience of spouses and partners of people struggling with addiction. Matt has 13 years of sobriety following a ten-year opioid addiction that began after an injury in his mid-twenties. Paige navigated those years as a partner who didn't know addiction was the cause of what she was living through, and has become a voice for others in similar situations. The show publishes three episodes per week, is over 300 episodes deep, and has a companion program built alongside a licensed therapist as well as a free Facebook community for listeners.

Podcast: Till the Wheels Fall Off https://twfo.com/

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Zach sits down with Susie and Paul, a couple who found each other through the comment section of a meditation app, fell in love before ever seeing each other's faces, and eventually moved across the globe to build a life together in Wollongong, Australia. Both came out of 20-year marriages. Both made the decision to leave. And both arrived at this second chapter with a fundamentally different understanding of what a relationship is actually for.

The conversation covers a lot of ground: the fear and courage it takes to end a marriage, what the brain does when it's protecting you from change, and why staying in stable misery can feel like the smarter option even when it clearly isn't. Susie, a life coach and host of the Love Your Life Show, talks about how she once saw relationships as a transaction, where she got something and gave something back, and how completely that framing has shifted. Paul, who has spent a decade studying, practicing, and teaching Buddhism and mindfulness, brings a steadying philosophy: you are the creator of your experience, not the victim of your circumstance, and your emotions exist to teach you, not to be avoided. Together they describe a marriage built on two whole people rather than two people trying to complete each other, and what it actually looks like in practice, including how Paul came back after a moment of frustration over grocery bags and said, simply, that he'd been a little unregulated earlier. Susie calls it the sexiest thing a man can do.

What makes this episode stick is how honest it is about the cost of the path they took and the fruit of it. All five of their kids, across two blended families, are thriving. And neither Susie nor Paul thinks that's a coincidence.

Key Takeaways

• Your brain will give you every reason to stay in a relationship that isn't working because discomfort is still known, and known feels safe
• Leaving a long marriage at midlife is not a failure. Sometimes the most courageous act is moving toward discomfort instead of away from it
• A relationship is not a transaction. It's a container for self-growth and a practice in loving someone imperfectly
• One plus one should equal three: two whole, self-responsible people creating something stronger together, not two halves looking for completion
• The most important things to cultivate in yourself and to look for in a partner: the ability to self-regulate and the ability to repair
• Repair doesn't have to be dramatic. It can be as simple as "I could have handled that more skillfully" or "I was a little unregulated earlier"
• Your emotions aren't happening to you. They're here to teach you something. The path through discomfort is the path, not a detour from it
• Staying in a broken marriage "for the kids" may be the very thing harming them. What children need modeled is not a facade of togetherness but emotional honesty and growth

Guest Info

Susie is a life coach and educator who works primarily with women on emotional intelligence, relationships, and parenting. She hosts the Love Your Life Show podcast (now at 400 episodes) and runs a monthly membership called the Love Your Life School, which offers classes on emotional regulation, difficult conversations, and parenting coaching, along with live coaching. She offers a free podcast roadmap at her website for new listeners looking for a starting point. https://smbwell.com/

Paul is Susie's husband and a decade-long practitioner, student, and teacher of Buddhism, mindfulness, and meditation. He is the author of 9756 Miles to Happiness, named for the exact distance between where he and Susie were living when they met. He is offering MTR listeners a free 15-minute consultation through his website, https://www.paulpettit.com/

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Brian and Kristen return after completing their homework: mapping their recurring conflict pattern step-by-step.

And something shifts.

Instead of focusing on who’s right, they begin identifying when the pattern starts, how it escalates, and where they might choose something different. They talk about having a “good week,” more laughter, and fewer misunderstandings—but Zach presses deeper: Was it luck, or was it intentional?

What unfolds is a layered conversation about stress, chronic pain, medication changes, PMS, defensiveness, and the powerful internal story Brian carries that says, “If there’s a problem, it must be me.” Zach helps them connect the dots between depression’s lies, physiological stress, and how quickly neutral requests can turn into personal threat.

The couple names their 10-step pattern openly—fight or flight, overthinking, mounting a defense, physical withdrawal—and begins experimenting with something new: interrupting the script before it reaches step six.

This episode isn’t about resolution. It’s about pattern awareness and learning how to redirect before old muscle memory takes over.

They close by identifying the next layer to explore in Episode 3: their over-functioner / under-functioner dynamic—and how it triggers deeper family-of-origin wounds.

Key Takeaways

• A “good week” is often intentional, not accidental

• Externalizing the problem (“us vs. the schedule”) strengthens the team

• Physiological stress (sleep, pain, hormones, meds) directly impacts conflict

• Depression distorts perception and reinforces “I’m the problem” narratives

• Defensiveness often protects something deeply valuable

• Mapping a conflict pattern creates space for choice

• Interrupting the script—even once—builds momentum

• Repair matters more than resolution

• “Something new” is the antidote to “more of the same”

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Zach's family is all together for the summer. Laura is getting up to speed with her mountain biking. 

They invite listeners to support the podcast by joining Patreon. Come for the perks, stay because you support building stronger relationships. 

Laura asks when complaining is too much or too little in a relationship. It leads to some great discussion on emotional bank accounts and some tips and tricks to make complaining work within your relationship.

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Zach and Laura discuss a number of topics including Mother's Day disappointment, getting to a decision point as a couple, and a special announcement about an upcoming book.

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Zach and Laura tackle the tough questions of relationship. Like, "How do you pack for a multi-city trip?".

After some discussion of their travels, Laura shares about her passion for sex therapy. Zach finds it very helpful and we think you will too. 

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Zach is away on some travels, so Laura gets to welcome back a previous guest, Craig Smith. Craig is a therapist, coach, and all-around good guy. They discuss how working on yourself can be one of the best things you can do for your marriage. Learn more about Craigs work at https://www.greatestdaymindset.com/

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Marriage is hard and Sophia, a 14-year-old from NY, wants some answers to what she has been learning. Zach answers her questions and is able to learn a bit about the life and relationships of "kids today". 

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After a false start recording, Zach and Laura kick off the episode with some intros for new listeners.

They go on to discuss the concept of "being triggered". Why does it happen? And what can you do about it?

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After some discussion of Ted Lasso and Gray's Anatomy, Zach and Laura hear from Charisse Cooke https://charissecooke.com/ about her work and new book The Attachment Solution. Charisse shares about the origin of the styles and how they deeply impact our relationships. You will end this episode with some great tools to better understand yourself and your partner.

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Zach wishes his brother a happy birthday. Laura reminisces about old crushes. 

Zach presents a concept about seeing greater options in your potential responses to your partner and constantly choosing the response that moves you away from conflict and toward connection and intimacy.

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Laura admits to a potential crime in the most privileged setting possible. Zach drops his wife off for surgery after an argument in the car.

After starting strong they return to your questions. The answers to these questions from individual listeners contain insight that will benefit all relationships.

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Zach and Laura welcome spring by answering a couple of questions listeners have sent in. They share both their clinical perspective as well as their personal experiences in this first in an AMA series.

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Zach begins a three-part series with Brian and Kristen, longtime MTR listeners who volunteered to work through their marriage challenges in real time.

Brian and Kristen have been together for more than two decades and credit Marriage Therapy Radio as a resource that helped them find language for patterns they felt—but couldn’t name. They describe how listening separately (not together) gave them neutral ground to reflect, build vocabulary, and bring conversations back into their marriage without escalating conflict.

The focus of this first session is a familiar cycle: Brian’s defensiveness, Kristen’s experience of being misunderstood, and the growing frustration around repair always landing on one partner. Zach helps them slow the pattern down, name the dynamics at play, and examine how early family modeling, parenting pressure, and long-term habits have shaped their responses to conflict.

Rather than trying to “fix” the marriage, this episode centers on clarity: understanding what actually happens when things go off the rails, differentiating between feeling attacked and being attacked, and identifying where each partner has agency. Zach reframes responsibility not as blame, but as freedom—emphasizing that each partner can choose how they show up regardless of the other’s behavior.

The episode closes with a concrete assignment: mapping their recurring argument step-by-step so they can externalize the pattern and begin changing it together in the next session.

Key Takeaways

• Long marriages still require new skills as life circumstances change

• Defensiveness often comes from perceived threat, not actual attack

• Feeling misunderstood can be as painful as being criticized

• Responsibility is most powerful when it’s chosen, not demanded

• Repair patterns can unintentionally create resentment

• Taking breaks during conflict can prevent escalation and shutdown

• Naming the pattern creates options for change

• Playfulness and lightness are essential for long-term connection

Why This Episode Matters

This episode offers a rare, transparent look at the beginning of relational work—not the polished outcome. Brian and Kristen model what it looks like to be curious, honest, and willing to be seen while still feeling stuck.

For listeners, this is an invitation to recognize familiar patterns in their own relationships and to remember: insight is the first step, not the finish line.

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Zach and Laura chat with author Matt Fray https://matthewfray.com/ about his book This is How Your Marriage Ends https://matthewfray.com/order-book/. Matt's wisdom was hard-earned after a divorce that forced him to look deeply at the skills and habits he lacked in his marriage.

You will end this episode with insights that will improve your relationship.

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Laura is working to get in the best shape of her life. Zach is celebrating women and recognizing he sometimes gets the Man Flu. 

They share some great resources that can support you as you seek to grow your relationship.

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Laura is moving back into her house. Zach recaps his trip to Costa Rica to receive training from Esther Perel and Terry Real.

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Zach and Laura are both seeing ADHD be raised as a topic, if not an issue, in their practices. So they are delighted to get to sit down with Melissa Orlov to learn how to address its impact on a marriage. Melissa is a leading expert on the impacts of ADHD on marriage and relationships, the author of The ADHD Effect on Marriage, and the founder of ADHD & Marriage.

Their discussion is insightful for those in a marriage impacted by ADHD, or anyone interested in this underdiagnosed neurodiverity.

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Zach shares his impressive home improvement skills. Laura is grateful for a listener's support.

They discuss a recent TikTok trend that may have a greater impact on a relationship than many understand.

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Zach has an engaging conversation with Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh about her research and new book Love by Design. Laura is off this week. They discuss the 6 ingredients to build lasting love. You can learn more about Dr. Nasserzadeh's work and order her book at https://www.sara-nasserzadeh.com/ 

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Zach is a bit annoyed with his auto dealer. Laura is downsizing her car to a much bigger vehicle.

They go on to discuss the importance of positive collusion with your partner to better yourself and your relationship. They offer a number of personal examples as well as some tips and tricks to see growth in any marriage.

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Zach and Laura welcome Dr. Jessica Higgins to the podcast. They discuss the importance of acknowledging and expressing emotions, modeling vulnerability, and using language that promotes curiosity and understanding in communication. They emphasize the need to slow down, bring awareness to interpretations, and create space for regulating emotions during interactions.

Learn more about Dr. Higgins and her work at https://drjessicahiggins.com/

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Zach and Laura discuss the role of Wordle in their lives. Laura had a fun conversation with her kid after he walked in on her and her husband. 

In a roundabout way, this reminds Zach of a tool he's been using in his practice to help couples make meaning of their decisions and experiences. 

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Zach and Laura discuss their New Year's goals. They reflect on a kind listener's email offering some critique.

In the spirit of new beginnings, they offer a ton of insight into what to do when you are feeling stuck or you feel like your partner is keeping you stuck.

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Zach sits down with Casey and Meygan Caston, founders of Marriage365, to talk about how a marriage that nearly collapsed in year three became the foundation for a global relationship resource.

Both Casey and Meygan grew up surrounded by divorce, affairs, and unresolved conflict. Determined not to repeat their parents’ patterns, they entered marriage with optimism—but no tools. By year three, resentment, blame, and emotional shutdown had taken over, and Meygan found herself convinced she had made the biggest mistake of her life.

What changed everything wasn’t mutual effort at first—it was personal responsibility. After starting therapy alone, Meygan learned boundaries, emotional regulation, and how to take ownership of her part of the dance. Thirteen months later, her changed posture toward conflict forced a shift in the relationship dynamic, and Casey began doing his own work.

Together, they share how changing one partner changes the entire system; why marriage is not about solo dancing; and how resentment—not communication—is usually the real problem couples face. Zach weaves in his own frameworks around adulthood, repair, and the “dance” of relationship, while Casey and Meygan offer practical insight from years of coaching couples in crisis.

The conversation also explores forgiveness, curiosity, intentional choice, cultural myths about love, and why healthy marriages are built through habits—not hope.

Key Takeaways

• You’re not stuck – Changing yourself changes the relationship system.

• Marriage is a team sport – Two people dancing separately isn’t partnership.

• Resentment breaks communication – Most “communication problems” are really unresolved hurt.

• Repair requires ownership – A real apology validates pain and invites rebuilding trust.

• Acceptance matters – Forgiveness doesn’t have to be instant, but honesty does.

• Curiosity beats defensiveness – Looking inward is the first step toward growth.

• Feelings fluctuate; choices endure – Love is sustained through intentional action.

• Differences aren’t the enemy – Harmony comes from resolving dissonance, not eliminating it.

Guest Info

Casey & Meygan Caston

Casey and Meygan are the founders of Marriage365, a relationship coaching platform dedicated to helping couples build intentional, resilient marriages. Drawing from their own near-divorce story and years of coaching experience, they offer practical tools, habits, and frameworks for repair, communication, and connection.

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marriage365/

New Book

The Marriage Habit — releasing February 3, 2026A practical, habit-based framework for couples who want clarity on how to build a strong marriage—not just why it matters.

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Zach and Laura hear from Dr. Nick Sotelo about his work helping men manage their anger. Nick has a fascinating background that gives him a unique perspective on unmanaged anger. He has developed many helpful resources for men to address this in their lives.

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Laura wasn't really feeling the Christmas spirit this year.  Zach started his Christmas morning around 11. Laura accidentally stole half of a sign. 

They reflect together on Christmas cards and how to be authentic but also remind each other that we are OK.  They talk a bit about broken hearts and early relationships and spend time reflecting on this last year and their hopes for the new year. 

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Zach and Laura reflect a bit on making it to 300 hundred episodes and what they hope listeners have gained along the way.

Zach tells Laura how he has learned from her in the different way that she approaches thinking and talking about sharing fondness and admiration. It leads to a great conversation about how to appreciate your partner and love them the way they want to be loved.

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Zach reflects on some of what he heard at a recent therapist conference. It leads to a wonderful discussion of the different parts of ourselves that we bring to our relationships and how we can access those parts for the improvement of our marriages and partnerships. 

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Zach and Laura get to the topic they teased last episode. It is an exercise that couples can use to safely discuss the unspoken topics in their relationship. If done well, it will lead to greater intimacy, understanding, and maybe some makeup sex :)

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Zach and Laura's kid kind of sing a song together. Laura discusses toilet time with your partner, leading to a great discussion about different types of intimacy. She hoped to work out an exercise she's been doing with her clients, but she and Zach got distracted.

At the end of the episode, Laura shares an important update about what she is doing to support her son's recent diagnosis.

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Zach and Laura discuss the exhaustion and stress of the holidays and the relational struggles that can cause.

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Zach and Laura welcome Sazan and Stevie Hendrix; authors, influencers, parents, and a real couple, to discuss their new book and more. Be sure to check out the book and all they have to offer at https://stevieandsazan.com/ 

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Zach and Laura discuss hair length and how it works for each of them. They contemplate if there are any shared activities that they could enjoy doing together (besides podcasting). This leads to a conversation about how treating areas of your relationship that you want to improve like a hobby. 

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Today we break from our normal format to share an episode from Dan Heath's new podcast What It's Like To Be... Dan interviews Laura about what it's like to be a couples therapist. It's a chance to hear about Laura and her work from another perspective. We hope you enjoy it.

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Zach sits down with David and Lisa, long-time partners and leaders in the escape room world, to explore what thousands of hours of collaborative problem-solving have taught them about communication, conflict, and teamwork.

They talk about why escape rooms reward kindness over brilliance, why “being right” is a losing strategy, and how the habits that help teams escape under pressure are the same ones that help couples thrive in real life. From debriefing mistakes without blame to celebrating small wins—even when you lose—this conversation offers a surprisingly practical framework for building resilient, collaborative relationships.

Key Takeaways

• Escape rooms reward communication and kindness, not intelligence or dominance

• The fastest way to lose—both in games and relationships—is trying to win alone

• Healthy teams normalize double-checking, feedback, and shared responsibility

• Conflict works best when it happens after the pressure, not during it

• Strong partnerships focus on learning from mistakes, not litigating them

• Celebrating small wins matters—even when the overall outcome isn’t perfect

• Mutual respect and curiosity are foundational to long-term collaboration

Guest Info

David & LisaPartners in life and business, David and Lisa are leading voices in the escape room community. They have played more than 1,300 escape rooms worldwide, built a global community of players, and help people experience collaborative play through reviews, tours, and industry leadership.

They are the team behind Room Escape Artist, a trusted resource for discovering high-quality escape rooms around the world, and they also run curated escape room tours that bring players together across cities and countries.

• Website: https://roomescapeartist.com

• Email: contact@roomescapeartist.com

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Zach is flying solo this week and is joined by real-life couple Elizabeth and Steve Andrews. They share stories of what brought them together, the struggles they have overcome, and what keeps them going after over 30 years together. 

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Zach and Laura sit down to discuss infidelity and recovery with Dr. Monique Thompson. Dr. Thomson offers insight and practical tips for navigating this traumatic event in any relationship.

Learn more about Dr. Thompson and her offerings at https://doctormoniquethompson.com/about-dr-thompson

At the end of the episode, she shares the secret of her famous bundt cake.

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Laura is trying to solve a persistent eye twitch. 

Zach shares about his recent trip to Ireland and what he learned about life and relationships in his travels. 

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Zach quizzes Laura to see how well she knows him which leads to some discussion on expectations within your family system. 

Zach uses his personal example to revisit a helpful tool for giving and receiving feedback in your relationship. 

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Zach and Laura hear from Dr. Karin Luise (https://doctorkarin.com/) about what can happen when the changes we go through in our marriages end in divorce. Dr. Karin offers some personal stories as well as professional guidance for claiming your freedom and new path. 

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Laura is hoping to celebrate Christmas in her home. Zach lost one of his defining characteristics after scrolling Instagram one evening, but then used the 2 German words he used to escape being entrapped. Laura shares a couple of stories of disappointment in international travel. 

They go on to discuss how to be a good partner when you or your partner are in pain. You will find some really great tips that will increase your intimacy and connection. 

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Zach and Laura had to restart the podcast because they were so scattered. Zach revisits a dad joke. Laura tells you why she travels with a vibrator. They move on to answer a lister question about how to think about and manage relationships with a viable alternative partner. 

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Zach and Laura discuss getting and staying sober with Courtney Anderson. They share some personal stories as well as some tips for navigating sobriety in your relationship. Courtney is the author of Sober Vibes https://www.courtneyrecovered.com/sober-vibes-pre-order and offers a variety of support to women living the sober life.

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Zach is getting ready to head to Ireland after 3 years of planning and Laura is off to Tuscany. They talk a bit about the good things that can come from traveling with your partner. They transition to a topic Zach has on his mind: apologizing. 

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Laura is feeling a bit of a vulnerability hangover from the last episode. But that doesn't stop her from opening up about some ways that she is enlivening her sex life. She leads Zach in discussing various resources you can use to grow your sexual intimacy.

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Zach sits down with Courtney and Nathan Boyer, a couple married for over twenty years, parenting three kids, and living overseas on a U.S. military base in Germany.

Courtney and Nathan share the story of a major turning point in their marriage—when Courtney asked to open the relationship after years of suppressing her needs, identity, and desire. Raised in a strict religious culture, Courtney explains how she spent much of her marriage prioritizing her husband’s career and her role as a mother, slowly becoming resentful and disconnected from herself. Nathan, a military physician, reflects on how his drive for achievement and constant “next step” mindset left him unaware of how much was being lost along the way.

The couple walks through the six-month conversation that followed Courtney’s request—marked by resistance, fear, patience, and an honest willingness to walk away if they couldn’t find a way forward together. Nathan shares what it was like to realize he is deeply monogamous at his core, while Courtney names polyamory as an essential part of her identity rather than a lifestyle choice.

They also talk candidly about shame, public backlash, parenting through non-traditional choices, and the surprising ways opening the relationship strengthened their emotional and sexual connection. Throughout the conversation, Zach highlights the importance of long-form conversations, adult responsibility, and the courage it takes to renegotiate a marriage rather than quietly disappear inside it.

This episode is a nuanced, human look at love, consent, identity, and what it means to grow without abandoning one another.

Key Takeaways

• Long-term marriages go through distinct cycles tied to life stages, not just emotions
  

• Suppressing needs often leads to resentment, not stability
  

• Identity shifts don’t happen overnight—they require long conversations
  

• Consent includes the real option to walk away
  

• Monogamy and polyamory can coexist in one marriage with clarity and care
  

• Erotic energy and trust can grow through expansion, not just exclusivity
  

• Adult relationships require ongoing renegotiation, not silent endurance

Guest Info

Courtney Boyer

Relationship coach, author, and creator behind The Monopoly Couple. Courtney writes and speaks about identity, desire, religious conditioning, and non-traditional relationships.

• Website: https://www.courtneyboyercoaching.com/

• Book: Opened (launching February 17)https://www.courtneyboyercoaching.com/store/p/opened

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themonopolycouple/

Nathan Boyer

Military physician and longtime partner to Courtney. 

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Zach and Laura interview Chris Bruno and Tracy Johson of ReStory about their work taking both individuals and couples into deeper work about how their past stories inform their present and future. Be sure to check out their work at https://www.restory.life/ and snag their free resource Thrive Dates https://www.restory.life/thrive-dates

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Laura is flooded with emotion and wants to figure out how not to bottle her feelings. Zach is also feeling some big feelings. 

This leads them into a conversation about the importance of connecting with your feeling and increasing your understanding of how to deal with them. 

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Laura has a twitchy eye. Zach remembers his favorite movie, but more important, just finished a year-long certification. 

They discuss a listener's question about how Zach and Laura got into couples counseling as a profession. It leads to some fun personal stories about their journeys and hopefully provides some insight into the process for anyone looking to pursue this career path.

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