In this episode, I sit down with Natalie Marcotullio to talk about the thinking behind Navattic’s Buyer First report—and why content only started working when they made it bigger than the product.

We get into:

• How to create content that people care about before they’re in a buying cycle
• The evolution of the Buyer First report (and why it’s still ungated)
• Why tying your brand to a bigger idea builds long-term trust
• The difference between capturing demand and creating it

If you’ve ever felt like your content is stuck in sales-support mode, this one’s for you.

Here's the link to the full 2025 B2B Buyer First Report: https://www.chilipiper.com/post/2025-b2b-buyer-first-report 

In the debut episode of Words in Progress, a mini-series within Louder Than Words, John Bonini sits down with Natalie Marcotullio, Head of Growth & Product Marketing at Navattic, to unpack how she and her team transformed a vague idea—buyer first—into a tangible, ownable editorial narrative and content framework.

They walk through the evolution of Navattic's flagship report, how it moved from a simple data dump to a narrative-driven asset, and how that narrative now ties together all of their content efforts—from blog posts and webinars to LinkedIn and beyond. This conversation is a behind-the-scenes look at how content brands are built in progress—not just in hindsight.

You know Dave Gerhardt. Maybe it's from his days running marketing at Drift. Or from his time hosting the Seeking Wisdom podcast with David Cancel. Or, maybe you've heard of (or are a member of) his B2B community, Exit Five. 

Point is, if you've been working in B2B marketing at any point in the last decade, you know Dave. 

In this rare podcast interview, Dave goes into detail on everything that's led him to this point––the solo founder of a $1M business. 

You'll hear what he learned during his days at Drift, how his community first launched as a side gig, when he knew he could go all in on his own, and all of the details for how he currently runs his business (i.e. how his revenue streams have changed, how he prices sponsorships, where he goes from here, etc.)

Enjoy! 

Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode, the promotional clips, and handling the overall production of Louder Than Words.

We’re back! The first new episode of Louder Than Words in more than 6(!) years. 

Today, John welcomes marketing and creative extraordinaire Amanda Natividad to talk about her own journey as a creator filled with uncertainty and self-doubt to a full-blown influencer, how she approaches creating content that’s unique and more defensible, and how the freedom to create on her/their own terms at SparkToro works to their benefit. 

Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode, the promotional clips, and handling the overall production of Louder Than Words. 

Airbnb runs about 700 experiments in a given week. Here, I chat with data scientist Linsday Pettingill on the culture and principles that allow their team to move so quickly and efficiently, and how others people can transpose these ideas to their own work.

What do companies like Facebook, Dropbox, Airbnb, Pinterest (and others!) all have in common? Not just a great product, but a methodical, measured approach to driving extraordinary growth. In this episode, Sean Ellis and Morgan Brown (founders of GrowthHackers.com) unpack the principles behind these methods.

Scott Monty, former head of social media at Ford Motor Company, talks about his decision to join Ford in 2008 and the specifics of what went into the social and branding strategies that helped turn the company’s image around.

Jason Fried, Founder and CEO of Basecamp, talks about the (rare) art of making more money than you spend instead of aiming for growth at all costs.

Christian Rudder, cofounder of OkCupid and bestselling author of “Dataclysm: Who We Are When We Think No One is Looking”, talks about OkCupid’s algorithmic approach to growing past its competition.

Tucker Max, bestselling author of "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell", talks about the inspiration behind founding his new company, Book in a Box, and how they’re helping people turn ideas into books.

Jay Acunzo, former marketer at Google and HubSpot, talks about the inspiration behind his current passion project Unthinkable.fm, and how he’s helping connect marketers everywhere that are bothered by “suck.”

Meghan Keaney Anderson, HubSpot's VP of Marketing, has been with the company for five years. Here she talks about the levers that have inspired growth and why content and SEO will be radically different over the next five years.

In this episode, John sits down with Natalie Marcotullio, head of growth and operations at Navattic. Natalie shares her experience transitioning from a traditional SEO-driven content marketing playbook to a more customer-focused approach and how that's paid off. 

Discussed in this episode:

• Leveraging customer insights and data to craft content that stands out.
• Unique perspectives and insights are crucial in content creation to differentiate a company from competitors.
• A unique branding approach that aligns with the company's values and sets it apart from others is essential.
• Authenticity in content helps build trust and engagement with the audience.
• Partnerships and collaborations with industry experts can help reach a wider audience and provide valuable insights.
• Shifting away from the traditional SEO playbook and focusing on unique content creation can yield better results.
• Manual qualitative research can provide unique insights and make content more valuable and trustworthy.

Enjoy!

Jess Iandiorio, VP of Marketing at Drift, details prescriptive tips on how brands can start building a more effective customer growth strategy and retain more customers.

Keith Frankel talks in detail about the career that has taken him from the competitive board rooms at MTV to the rose-tinted offices of the tech world and the experiences therein that led to his mission to never lie again.

Neil Pasricha, best known for his blog–1000 Awesome Things–and subsequent "Book of Awesome" series talks about his new book, "The Happiness Equation", and how he discovered the simplest formula to a happy life.

Jason Zook, best known for making over $1,000,000 wearing t-shirts and selling his last name (twice), talks about creativity, hustle porn, and preparing for success.

David Heinemeier Hansson on why Silicon Valley culture gets it all wrong.

Nataly Kogan, founder of Happier, talks about escaping communist Russia at 13 and her life’s work of helping others find happiness in small, bite-sized, everyday moments.

Jeff Sheldon, the designer and founder of Ugmonk, talks about growing his side passion project into the well-known lifestyle brand it's become today.

Austin Kleon, the New York Times best selling author of Steal Like an Artist and Show Your Work, chats on everything from the importance of being boring, how he collects ideas, the Talking Heads, and much, more more.

Ann Handley, the world's first chief content officer and best selling author of Everybody Writes, talks about overcoming her own distractions to be a better writer (and why delivering newsletters in her neighbor's mailbox as a child was not scalable.)

Joe Pulizzi, founder of Content Marketing Institute and author of Content Inc., talks about how many successful companies experience "happy accidents" in the way they grow their content marketing strategies.

In this episode, John catches up with old friend and copywriting savant, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie is the founder of VeryGoodCopy where he has built up a massive audience and profitable personal brand using primarily 2 mediums –– blog posts (what Eddie calls micro articles) and email. 

Things discussed in this episode: 

• Teaching yourself a new skill can be done through creating personal projects and writing about what you're learning.
• Adapting content for different mediums requires adjusting the narrative, word count, and technique to fit the platform's parameters.
• Authenticity and personal stories can resonate with readers and help build a strong connection with the audience.
• Choosing the right format for your content, whether it's micro articles, videos, or podcasts, can allow your work to shine and attract the right audience.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (02:07) - Starting Very Good Copy
• (07:20) - Sharing Very Good Copy
• (09:12) - Adapting Content for Different Mediums
• (11:28) - Learning About Himself and His Creative Process
• (14:24) - Starting Point for New Pieces
• (15:56) - Writing on the Phone
• (23:02) - Authenticity and Connecting with Readers
• (25:29) - Choosing the Right Format
• (25:55) - Writing about Moments
• (27:18) - Breaking Down the Wall
• (29:56) - The First Resonating Piece
• (33:07) - Lessons from Not Getting Hired
• (38:40) - The Impact of Not Getting the Job
• (40:10) - Making AI Personal
• (49:32) - Curating a Book

Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount. 

Joanna Wiebe, creator of Copy Hackers, talks about her journey toward starting her own copywriting business, which includes accidentally sending her old boss a resignation email.

Masterful content strategist Andy Crestodina details the art of being a successful content marketer in an ecosystem polluted with noisy opinions, experts, and "gurus."

Legendary speaker and consultant (and the man who literally wrote the book on content marketing) C.C. Chapman discusses his journey into content and the world of digital marketing.

Jen Giese details the rise of Photojojo, what started as a simple newsletter for DIY photographers, to the massive online retailer it has now become.

Legendary marketing speaker Marcus Sheridan take us inside those dark days in 2008 while he was struggling to turn around his business, and how along the way, he learned lessons that he now shares with the world.

James Chartrand, the masterful copywriter behind Men With Pens, talks about her career arc and how adopting a male pen name has made all the difference in earning business, respect, and more money.

Seth Godin talks fear, talent vs. compliance, and why he announced his candidacy for President of the United States.

Chris Guillebeau, author of the bestselling "$100 Startup" chats about traveling to every country in the world, why he's always been unemployable, and how to finally get started on bringing your ideas to life.

Scott Belsky, founder of Behance and also VP of Product at Adobe, talks about how to successfully execute your ideas and why he finds it helpful to always think he's in the early innings.

Contently's editor in chief discusses all things content related, including how he'd recreate his success at other companies. (Hint: They'd have to be foreword-thinking.)

This week, John sits down with content legend Ross Simmonds. Ross is the founder and CEO of Foundational Marketing, an agency focused on distribution, as well as the (new!) author of "Create Once, Distribute Forever."

Discussed in this episode:

• Leading with value is crucial in content marketing to avoid being banned or blocked from platforms.
• Content creators should prioritize distribution to reach a larger audience and maximize the impact of their work.
• Content has the potential to live beyond the creator and inspire future generations.
• Repurposing and updating existing content can be an effective strategy for book writing and content creation.
• Distribution channels like Facebook groups and Twitter chats have evolved over time and require continuous adaptation.
• Understanding the power of distribution can lead to life-changing opportunities and the ability to make a global impact. Provide value on native platforms and view content distribution as a long-term game of touch points and connection.
• Test ideas and concepts to see if they resonate with the audience and have content market fit.
• Creating high-quality content that educates, engages, entertains, or empowers is key.
• Be strategic and creative in repurposing and sharing content across different channels.

***
Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode, the promotional clips, and handling the overall production of Louder Than Words.

Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount. 

Bestselling author Ryan Holiday talks about why he dropped out of college, how he landed opportunities with Tim Ferris and American Apparel in his early 20s, and the basics of growth hacking and how to compete for attention.

Bernadette Jiwa has written four #1 bestsellers on the art of brand storytelling. Here she discusses how to make people fall in love with your brand and idea. For more, check our Jiwa's 20 Keys of Brand Storytelling here: http://thestoryoftelling.com/what-is-a-brand-story/

Johnny "Cupcakes" Earle discusses his entrepreneurial upbringing, how he started 16 businesses before he was 16, and why he still gets excited about selling t-shirts.

Helena Price quit her job in tech to take photos. Now, just a few years later, she's the most sought after photographer in Silicon Valley, doing work for some of the biggest brands on the planet.

Copyblogger's Chief Copywriter discusses his dark days as an obscure writer, how his passion of writing evolved, and eventually, landed him the job of his dreams.

Unbounce cofounder Oli Gardner chats about the origins of his company, how to execute more effective split testing, and the hardest thing he's ever done.

Elle Luna rose to internet fame in 2014 after posting her article "The Crossroads of Should & Must" on Medium. After 5 million views, a publishing deal, and a brand new book, Elle discusses what it takes to follow your passion.

Litmus marketing director Justine Jordan chats about bootstrapping, managing a team, and all things email marketing.

Jessica Hagy is an artist and writer best known for her award-winning blog, Indexed. In this casual chat, Hagy discusses how she went viral, quit her job in advertising at Victoria Secret, and now has the coolest job ever.

Wistia cofounder Chris Savage discusses how the idea for the company was first hatched, their initial aspirations, and the most important things he spends his time on.

This week, I sit down with a friend and and someone whose work I've long admired––Emily Triplett Lentz. Emily has one of the most prolific and legendary resumes in content marketing, working for brands like Basecamp, Help Scout, Loom, and currently, Calendly. 

Things discussed in this episode: 

• Community plays a crucial role in content marketing as it helps build trust and loyalty among target audiences.
• Basecamp's non-traditional approach to content, driven by strong opinions and clarity in messaging, contributed to its success and loyal following.
• Synthesizing information from various sources and incorporating different perspectives can lead to more impactful and insightful content.
• Embrace cultural conversations surrounding your brand and educate your audience to shape the narrative.
• Leverage your audience's voice to amplify your brand message.
• Content is the fuel for important campaigns and initiatives.
• Consider the unique characteristics and needs of your company when developing content strategies.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (03:32) - The Impact of Content Brands
• (05:23) - The Importance of Personal Use Case
• (07:11) - Content at Basecamp: Non-traditional Approach
• (08:40) - Content at Help Scout: Investing in Community
• (11:31) - Content at Basecamp: Freedom and Input
• (13:58) - The Power of Contrarian Content
• (17:17) - Content at Basecamp: Clarity and Opinion
• (21:28) - Content at Help Scout: Learning and Growth
• (23:18) - Content as Brand
• (24:17) - Engaging and Elevating a Community
• (24:17) - Building a Passionate and Influential Customer Base
• (30:02) - Engaging in Cultural Conversations
• (36:20) - Leveraging Product Virality
• (40:16) - Strategic Content Efforts for Limited Resources

Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount. 

The HubSpot Blog has grown to drive 2 million monthly views. There aren't many people more responsible for this growth than Pamela Vaughan, manager of optimization and growth of HubSpot Content. In this candid interview, Pamela discusses how she joined HubSpot in 2008, how the landscape has changed since, and how other marketers and bloggers could achieve similar growth.

This week, John sits down with Chris Savage, co-founder and CEO at Wistia. The team at Wistia has always approached content differently than most other companies. They host, and film, parades. They buy and refurbish old station wagons. They record original music. All for the content. In this episode, John geeks out with Chris to learn all about the how and why behind Wistia's unique flavor of content over the last 17 years. 

Discussed in this episode: 

• Creativity and quality are essential in content creation to capture audience attention and build trust.
• Human connection and trust are crucial in content marketing and brands should focus on building relationships with their audience.
• Treating content like a product and investing in its quality and research can lead to audience trust and loyalty.
• Providing a good experience for non-ready customers can help grow the audience and build trust for future conversions.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (02:59) - The Power of Details and Originality
• (03:55) - The Role of Music in Branding
• (05:50) - Recognizing and Nurturing Talent
• (07:14) - The Significance of Attention to Detail
• (08:12) - The Impact of Presentation and Branding
• (09:11) - The Importance of Getting the Details Right
• (10:05) - The Value of Small Details in Content
• (10:58) - The Evolution of Music in Wistia
• (11:54) - The Connection Between Product and Brand
• (13:14) - The Impact of Branding on Content
• (14:36) - The Power of Creative and Risk-Taking
• (16:00) - The Balance Between Quantity and Quality
• (19:21) - The Value of Failure and Iteration
• (21:20) - The Perception of Audience Size
• (22:19) - Investing in Presentation and Brand
• (23:14) - The Impact of Tone and Feeling
• (25:08) - The Power of Authenticity and Creativity
• (26:35) - The Connection Between People and Brand
• (27:30) - The Importance of Trust and Guidance
• (27:59) - The Power of Creativity and Quality
• (28:58) - Building Trust through Content
• (29:54) - Delivering Value and Building Trust
• (30:24) - The Importance of Human Connection
• (31:53) - Creating an Audience of Trust
• (32:50) - Treating Content like a Product
• (34:14) - Providing a Good Experience for Non-Ready Customers
• (35:12) - The Role of Faces in Building Trust
• (36:10) - The Importance of People in the Brand
• (37:07) - The Rise of the Creator-Led Economy
• (38:05) - Maintaining Content Values as the Team Grows
• (39:34) - The Success of the Brandwagon Series
• (40:29) - The Concept and Execution of One, Ten, One Hundred

Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount. 

In this episode, John hangs out with recovering in-house marketer, now founder of Growth Sprints, Brendan Hufford. In the past, Hufford worked in both growth and SEO for companies like ActiveCampaign. Now, he works with SaaS companies to help take them grow through short, focused sprints using his SaaS Growth Sprint framework. 

Discussed in this episode: 

• Navigating bureaucracy requires understanding the value of stair stepping and starting with a V1, V2, V3 approach.
• Transitioning from one career to another often involves taking a step back to gain momentum and escape toxic work environments.
• Creating a personal brand and consistently producing content can lead to opportunities and growth.
• Bigger companies often undervalue creative work and prioritize numbers and politicking.
• The role of individual contributors who have an audience that aligns with the company's audience is highly valuable.
• Why companies should embrace creators who can not only create content but also contribute to the company's growth.
• Being interested in your audience and sharing interesting stories and experiences is more compelling than generic content.
• Traditional keyword research is becoming less effective, and unique angles in content are more important.

Timestamps:

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (02:01) - From School Teacher to Digital Marketing
• (04:20) - Starting a Review Website and Learning Marketing
• (05:11) - Creating Content and Building a Brand
• (06:06) - Transitioning from Teaching to Marketing
• (07:05) - Taking a Step Back to Gain Momentum
• (09:00) - The Power of Volume and Consistency
• (09:54) - Finding Escape Velocity and Building a Liberal Arts Degree in Marketing
• (10:53) - The Decision to Leave the 9-5 Lifestyle
• (12:15) - The Importance of Slowing Down and Focusing on Quality
• (13:40) - Creating Ephemeral Series of Content
• (15:58) - Leaving Toxic Work Environments
• (20:10) - Navigating Bureaucracy and Frustrations in the Workplace
• (22:56) - The Decision to Quit and Prioritize Mental Health
• (24:45) - Building Your Own Dream and Being Adequately Compensated
• (25:46) - The Importance of Supportive Spouses
• (26:16) - The Value of Supportive Relationships
• (26:45) - The Challenges of Working in Bigger Companies
• (27:16) - The Value of Individual Contributors
• (28:14) - The Importance of Being a Creator within a Company
• (29:13) - The Restrictions of Working Outside of Work
• (29:41) - The Challenges of Hiring Creators
• (30:11) - Being Interested and Being Interesting
• (31:06) - The Power of Sharing Stories and Experiences
• (32:05) - The Effectiveness of Reporting on Brands and Products
• (32:36) - The Current Trends in Content Creation
• (33:05) - The Importance of Quality in SEO
• (34:05) - The Value of Website Content
• (34:31) - The Need for Quality and Unique Content
• (35:56) - The Evolution of SEO and Content Strategy
• (37:19) - The Importance of Quality in YouTube and Podcasts
• (38:16) - The Role of SEO in Marketing
• (39:14) - The Importance of Unique Angles in SEO
• (40:13) - The Value of Important Content
• (41:11) - The Importance of Owning the Narrative
• (42:04) - The Death of Traditional Keyword Research
• (43:01) - The Importance of Unique Angles in Content
• (43:57) - The Limitations of Keyword Research
• (45:22) - The Importance of Elevating Content
• (46:49) - Revamping the Newsletter

Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode, the promotional clips, and handling the overall production of Louder Than Words.

Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount. 

This week, John is joined by Rand Fishkin––one of the true OGs when it comes to B2B content marketing. Rand is the founder and former CEO of Moz and the current founder and CEO of SparkToro. He's also the author of Lost and Founder: A Painfully Honest Field Guide to the Startup World.

Discussed in this episode: 

• SparkToro's three-year retrospective 
• The evolution of Rand's marketing approach involved a shift from less strategic and more experimental tactics to a focus on scalability.
• Balancing scalability and personalization is a key consideration in marketing, with scalable tactics often prioritized for growth.
• The flywheel mentality in marketing involves investing in tactics that improve over time and deliver better results with each iteration.
• Working through the challenges of anonymity is crucial for content creators, and success often comes from persistence and stomach for low initial engagement.
• Standing out in crowded platforms requires finding channels where competition is low and investing in tactics that resonate with the target audience.
• Designing a business for meaningful engagement involves focusing on a smaller, engaged audience rather than striving for massive numbers.
• Traditional marketing attribution can be a boondoggle, and focusing on vanity metrics can lead to building a marketing flywheel devoid of competition. Emotionally engaging content leads to business growth.
• Zero-click content is valuable and can provide benefits without requiring a click.
• Creating shareable content involves promoting insights and interesting takeaways rather than focusing on clicks.

Chapters:

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (01:28) - SparkToro's Three-Year Retrospective
• (07:37) - The Trade-Off Between Scalability and Personalization
• (09:30) - The Importance of Scalability in Marketing
• (09:59) - The Flywheel Mentality in Marketing
• (11:23) - Working Through the Challenges of Anonymity
• (12:18) - The Stomach to Work Through Anonymity
• (13:14) - Standing Out in Crowded Platforms
• (14:42) - Designing a Business for Meaningful Engagement
• (16:08) - The Chill Work Approach
• (21:50) - Traditional Marketing Attribution as a Boondoggle
• (27:03) - The Relationship Between Content and Business Growth
• (28:30) - Starting Point for Creating Content
• (29:56) - Criteria for Creating Content
• (31:22) - The Importance of Enjoying the Work
• (32:43) - The Concept of Zero-Click Content
• (34:38) - Creating Shareable Content
• (37:28) - The Impact of Zero-Click Searches
• (40:40) - The Future of Marketing: Zero-Click Content
• (44:57) - Favorite Mediums for Creating Content
• (46:45) - Approach to Researching for Content
• (48:08) - Rand's New Game Studio: Snackbar Studio

This episode of Louder Than Words is brought to you by Riverside, my preferred tool for recording and editing podcasts. Right now, Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount.

***

Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode, the promotional clips, and handling the overall production of Louder Than Words.

Riverside is offering a 15% discount to Louder Than Words listeners. Just visit riverside.fm and use the code LOUDER during checkout to lock in your discount.