Nathan welcomes author Sarah Clarkson to the show to discuss Scottish preacher and fiction writer George MacDonald—a key influence on Sarah’s literary career as well as her faith.

Show Notes

You can find Sarah writing regularly at her Substack, From the Vicarage (sarahclarkson.substack.com) or discover her books at sarahclarkson.com

Recommended by Sarah

1. Free online version of The Light Princess and Other Fairy Stories 
2. Free online version of Princess and the Goblins, one of Sarah’s favorite children's novels by MacDonald
3. Free online version of Lilith, Sarah’s favorite adult fairy tale by MacDonald
4. Sarah’s friend, Dr. Amanda Vernon, is a MacDonald scholar and children’s literature enthusiast.
5. A website dedicated to books, articles, art, and music about, or inspired by, George MacDonald's sermons, lectures, poems, prose, and prayers.
6. Recent Word on Fire edition of The Golden Key.

Poet laureate, professor, and author Ben Myers joins Nate to discuss a book that has been a constant and formative presence in his life: Dante's The Divine Comedy.

Benjamin Myers is the Crouch-Matthis Professor of Literature and the director of the
Great Books Honors Program at Oklahoma Baptist University. A former poet laureate of
Oklahoma, he is the author of four books of poetry as well as of one previous and two
forthcoming books of nonfiction. His poems, essays, and stories have appeared in many
journals and magazines, including Image, The Yale Review, First Things, and Rattle.
He is a contributing editor for Front Porch Republic and lives in Chandler, OK. His most
recent book of poems is The Family Book of Martyrs (2023).

Show Notes

1. The "100 Days of Dante" project.
2. The entire Comedy without commentary. 
3. Ben's article “A Disgusting Poem on God’s Goodness.”  
4. Ben's book The Family Book of Martyrs.

Audrey Elledge and Elizabeth Moore, authors of Liturgies for Wholeness, join Nate to talk about the formational power of liturgy and friendship.

Friendship is a relational connection point many people struggle with, but it's a grand invitation into deeper relationship with God. —Nathan Foster

Show Notes

Books by Elizabeth Moore and Audrey Elledge

• Liturgies for Hope: Sixty Prayers for the Highs, the Lows, and Everything in Between
• Liturgies for Wholeness: 60 Prayers to Encounter the Depth, Creativity, and Friendship of God in Ordinary Moments

Also mentioned in the episode:

• Every Moment Holy (liturgy series by Douglas McKelvey and other authors)

Ways to connect with Audrey and Elizabeth:

Elizabeth Moore:

Instagram

Twitter

Audrey Elledge:

Facebook

Twitter

LinkedIn

Pastor, worship leader, and gospel recording artist Donn Thomas shares about his personal battle with cancer, how worship is a weapon for overcoming fear, and how his church is thriving in a stay-at-home context.

Special thanks to Chad Lawson and Dwell App for the music.

Responding to listener questions, retired pastor Dr. Miriam (Mimi) Dixon and Renovaré President Chris Hall offer practical ways to think and act in redeeming ways in the unexpected learning space of an international crisis.

An audio meditation led by Nathan Foster to help us set our minds on what is good, beautiful, and true in the midst of uncertainty.

When it comes to the Charismatic Stream, Renovaré president Chris Hall coaches, "Avoid cookie cutter paradigms." He shares with Nathan Foster personal stories of experiencing the Holy Spirit in unexpected ways.

In 1991, members of a small church gathered for eight weeks to hear Dallas Willard teach on Psalm 23. Nearly three decades later the pastor of that church, Larry Burtoft, along with Dallas's daughter Rebecca Willard Heatley compiled those talks into a book. They join Nathan Foster to talk about it.

Renovaré Ministry Team member and author Dr. Lacy Borgo has years of experience working with (and raising!) children, learning from them how to enter the Kingdom of God. She joins Nathan Foster on the podcast about her new book Spiritual Conversations with Children: Listening to God Together.

Nathan talks with Richard Foster about the history and future of Renovaré events–including the story of the name behind the new event, The Foxtail. Learn more at renovare.org/foxtail

"I was drawn to Interior Castle as a field guide," says Renovaré Team Member and retired pastor Miriam (Mimi) Dixon, "for how I could cooperate with the Holy Spirit more directly in the transformation of my heart." In this in-depth interview with Nathan Foster, Mimi helps us understand Teresa of Ávila's classic work.​

Some think of the Contemplative Tradition as "me, Jesus, and a candle". Candlelit time with Jesus is beautiful, but how does that relate to community? Do contemplative practices like silent prayer work with others? Renovaré Director of Education Carolyn Arends discusses with Nathan Foster.

This meditation by Nathan Foster on Luke 22 invites us to the Mount of Olives where Jesus prayed “let this cup pass from me.”

"We invite the one who loves us into our awareness... and the Spirit at the same time is inviting us to be aware and be awake." Writer and spiritual director Jean Nevills talks with Nathan Foster how to be present to God in all of life.

Read Jean's original essay related to this podcast​, Light Enough to Live By.

"Your gifts don't serve to show me up, they serve to hold me up." ​Author and Renovaré Ministry team member Richella Parham continues her conversation with Nathan Foster about how to overcome the trap of comparison.

"We'll cross into the Kingdom but we'll keep our options open for crossing out again." James Catford, Renovaré Board Chair appointee and former British Bible Society Chief Executive, helps us see the Bible not so much as a map but a companion for moving deeper into life in the Kingdom of God.

Author and Renovaré Ministry team member Richella Parham talks with Nathan Foster about her new book Mythical Me: Finding Freedom from Constant Comparison.

​Read the related essay, Unlimited Liability: A Movement Towards Generosity.

Issues of social justice can be polarizing. And they can be paralyzing—with so much injustice in the world, where does one begin? "Don't be frozen," Richard Foster advises. "Start somewhere. Look for a situation you can help with and step in." That begins in small ways, right where you are.

When Saving Moses founder Sarah Bowling refers to Holy Spirit, she leaves out "the." It reminds us that the third person of the Trinity is indeed a person, the Helper sent by Jesus to dwell in us. She joins Nathan on the podcast to discuss the Charismatic stream and being led by the Spirit.

"Redeemed pain is more impressive than removed pain." Philip Yancey chats with Nathan Foster about the human body, the Body of Christ, what matters most, and the way Philip's life was forever changed by the years he spent with renowned physician Dr. Paul Brand.

Holiness is the power to be the kind of person the God wants us to be. Charismatic is the power to do the works of God. Richard Foster encourages us to not be afraid to wade into this often misunderstood and sometimes despised tradition of the Church.

"We were not made to run on our own. We were made to run and do our work on the power of God." In this classic talk, Dallas Willard recaptures the beauty and goodness of holiness, the power to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.

Trevor Hudson shares reflections on the influence that Desmond Tutu had on his life — as a friend, colleague, cellmate, and “contemplative in action.”

Show Notes

• Desmond Tutu's Nobel Prize biography page
• Made for Goodness by Desmond Tutu
• Books by Trevor Hudson

Other Episodes With This Guest

• Ep 47: Trevor Hudson — Friendship with God
• Ep 73: Trevor Hudson — Holiness is Better Than You Think
• Ep 131: Trevor Hudson — Listen to the Groans
• Ep 154: Trevor Hudson — Meeting Christ in Our Tears
• Ep 153: Trevor Hudson — The Litmus Test for Lent
• Ep 215: Trevor Hudson and Jan Johnson — What Is Spiritual Direction?
• Ep 239: Trevor Hudson — Seeking God

"Responding well under fire, using power rightly, well-functioning, life-affirming." Those phrases usually aren't the first to come to mind for most who hear the word "holiness." In this interview, Richard Foster helps reclaim the word and remind us that a holy life is a beautiful thing.

This interview continues a series on the six major Christian traditions outlined in Richard's book Streams of Living Water. To dig deeper, see the Renovaré webpage on The Six Streams and Richard Foster's book Streams of Living Water.

Inspired by the prayer chapter in The Divine Conspiracy, author and Renovaré Ministry Team member Emilie Griffin gives a talk on prayer at the 1999 Renovaré International Conference in Houston. It's followed by a special Q&A with Richard Foster and Dallas Willard.

"I will set the Lord always before me." These words from Psalm 16 are the crux of the Contemplative Tradition, or the Prayer-filled Life. Nathan Foster interviews his father Richard Foster, continuing a series on the six major Christian traditions, or streams, outlined in Richard's book Streams of Living Water.

Jon Bailey, Renovaré Board Chair and serial entrepreneur, knows technology can distract and harm. But his belief that it can also be used for good led him to co-create the Scripture listening app Dwell. Its thoughtful music was scored by Steinway artist and composer Chad Lawson, who also joins this episode.

Renovaré listeners can learn more and get 33% off a Dwell membership at dwellapp.io/renovare.

Listen to the music Chad composed for the app on Apple Music or Spotify.

For more, see the Renovaré webpage on The Six Streams and Richard Foster's book Streams of Living Water.

Despite the fact that evangelicals can be "know-it-alls who tend to start something new because others 'don't get it,'" author and president of Leadership Transformations Steve Macchia says there are still gifts to be rediscovered in the evangelical tradition.

To begin a series on the six major Christian traditions, or streams, outlined in the book Streams of Living Water, Nathan Foster talks with his father Richard Foster about one of the most misunderstood streams: Evangelical, or The Word-Centered Life.

The slaveholding mentality, which many American Christians assume is past, continues to distort the way we read Scripture and think about each other. With gentleness and humility, Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove shares how we can find freedom in the way of Jesus.

Resurrection Sunday is just the beginning. The church calendar sets aside fifty days to celebrate the resurrection. Teacher, author, and Renovaré Ministry Team member Lacy Borgo shares the why and how of Eastertide.

"Advent and Lent are like little door jambs to crack open space in our hearts." In a tender conversation with Nathan Foster, singer/songwriter and Renovaré Director of Education Carolyn Arends shares her journey with the church calendar and remembers her mom who recently passed.

“We enriched each other.” Luci Shaw speaks with Nate about her rich friendship with Madeleine L'Engle and how they made one another better writers and better followers of Jesus.

Show Notes + Transcript

Nate: Lucy, we get to talk about your friend today. How did you first come to meet Madeline?

Luci: Well, Madeleine and I met originally at Wheaton College at a conference on, on literature, and she was a speaker and I was a speaker, and so we just happened to connect at that, at that time, and we discovered we had a lot in common.

Madeline had just written a couple of poems that she wanted published. So, since my husband and I had just started the publishing company, Harold Shaw Publishers, I asked Madeline if she would like us to publish her poetry. Which is one of the things we had planned to do, was publish poetry people of faith. So, we did. We published two of her books. One was called A Cry Like a Bell. And the other one was Oh, I can't even remember the name of it. But this was very early on. And we discovered the more we talked, the more we found we had in common. 

We loved Bach. We loved the music of Bach. We had a number of common friends. That was way back when. 

Nate: Now, was this before she'd written Wrinkle in Time?

Luci: She had written A Wrinkle in Time.

Nate: And then you two went on to write some books together.

Luci: That's right, yeah, we had our publishing company, and we were trying to publish, books by people of faith who had a literary bent. Anyway, that was the beginning of a really fruitful friendship. We found that, though Madeline had a number of people who were devoted to her and looked up to her, she didn't have many colleagues who were sort of meeting her at the friendship level, not just the sort of worshipful level that she had managed to accumulate.

So, the first book that we did together, I asked her to write a book on faith, how faith and literature work together. So she, at one point, handed me this very untidy typescript. Piles and piles of typed notes and possible chapter headings and so on.

So I had to just take the whole thing, pull it apart, I emptied my dining room, got the table out of the way, and started making piles. of different ideas that would flow together. We called it the Weather of the Heart. 

She needed someone who could sort of say, Madeline, you can't say that. You know, that's... not orthodox. We'll have to talk through that one. So, we did. We did a lot of discussion. She came from a very liberal background in New York City. I came from a very conservative background. And we sort of met in the middle and discovered that we loved each other's works. And we learned a lot from each other and through each other.

Nate: What did you learn from her? 

Luci: I learned to be a lot more open about what faith in God was all about. That you didn't have formulas by which to describe your faith. That this was a freeing thing, that the Holy Spirit of God could work in different ways. We just enjoyed each other's experiences with the Spirit of God. We shared so much. We found that working together was truly an act of worship to God. 

I remember after working through an entire manuscript, The Weather of the Heart, we finished all the copy editing and so on, we spontaneously stood to our feet and sang the doxology, "Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow." 

Nate: What do you want people to remember about her?

Luci: I want them to remember that she loved God with all her heart. That she wanted to be God's child and servant. And I think that what I could bring to her was a sense that God was larger than either her understanding or my understanding of God. That God was so magnificent and so wide, in the ways we could reach to God through the Holy Spirit.

So it was a very Trinitarian friendship. She loved Jesus, and you know, the fact that God was both Jesus and also the Divine Creator of the world. 

Nate: How did you see her work influence people spiritually?

Luci: I think she asked a lot of questions that people had. People you know, had a lot of questions because God is knowable through various ways, but not always easily understood. And because Madeline had a very great respect for the Bible and for Holy Scripture, and she realized that, throughout Scripture, God speaks to us through metaphors.

God spoke to Moses with the Ten Commandments, but also through acts of grace and love. It was, an ongoing, free flowing relationship that God wants to have with us as his children, as his followers, and both Madeline and I wanted to have that characterize our life and our writing.

Nate: Mm-Hmm. . Do you miss her?

Luci: I miss her a lot. I think I was the only true friend she had at the level where we could be honest, really honest with each other. We rescued each other several times. 

Once she was in California speaking at a conference and she became very ill and was hospitalized. And I was living in the state of Washington. And she phoned me and she said, can you come down and be with me? So I went down to the hospital in Santa Cruz and spent three weeks. I lived in a motel nearby, and came in and spent time with her, telling jokes, writing things together, just conversing at the deepest level about what our lives were meant to be, and what was truly significant and important for us to believe and to do with our writing. 

And of course, I was a poet. She's a fiction writer. And sort of, we met in the middle, which was a really good place. We enriched each other at that wonderful level. 

I also got to know her family. I spent quite a bit of time visiting New York and staying with her in her apartment on the Upper West Side.

Most days we would walk over to the cathedral, Anglican Cathedral of St. John the Divine. And go to communion there at noon.

And that was the sort of thing that we were able to join in wholeheartedly with no reservations. But also, when we had questions, we were able to share our questions with each other and search what the great theologians had to say and what Scripture had to say about topics and about themes.

When we had doubts, when we had huge questions about what God was doing in the world. We could share those with each other and pray together. We did a lot of praying. 

Nate: Sounds like a really special friendship that you two had. What was the role she filled for you?

Luci: She filled for me a challenge. She would ask me to move beyond my evangelical faith and open up to various other questions about who we were to be in the world, how we were to reflect the Holy Spirit's wide ranging creativity in the world.

So we can be part of that flow of creativity that comes through the Holy Spirit into the created world.

Nate: What was she like as a person?

Luci: Well, she was quite-- she was, pretty strong minded. Yeah, she didn't suffer fools gladly, but she was very loving to people who were questioning, who were seekers after God.

I think one of the things that blessed me was that ...

When Jesus finds Mary crying at his tomb, he doesn't try to cheer her up or change her. He simply asks, "Why are you weeping?" In this moving talk—interspersed with pauses and contemplative music for reflection—author and pastor Trevor Hudson helps us listen to our pain and find Christ in our tears.

Lent is the season when people give up things they enjoy. But is that even a good idea? What's the litmus test for observing Lent—or any spiritual practice, for that matter? Author, pastor, and Renovaré Institute instructor Trevor Hudson offers some liberating answers in this interview with Nathan Foster.

Most Christians practice spiritual disciplines long before they know what a spiritual discipline is. For Jean Nevills, spiritual director and Renovaré Ministry Team member, celebration was a normal part of her upbringing and is part of everyday life now. In this conversation with Nathan Foster, she makes celebration practical.

Written by an anonymous author in the 14th century, The Cloud of Unknowing serves as a guide to Christian contemplation. For guest James Catford, Renovaré board member and former British Bible Society Chief Executive, it's a "lifetime book." Nathan Foster draws out James's insights on the book.

A good translation of Philippians 4:4 is, "Celebrate in the Lord, always." But what does that mean in practical terms? Author and teacher Jan Johnson joins Nathan Foster again to discuss being glad with God in the present moment.

Is learning to discern God's voice a fundamental spiritual discipline? Evan Howard believes so and joins Nathan Foster to share how God leads us. Evan's Ph.D. is in the area of Christian Discernment, and he teaches at institutions including Fuller Theological Seminary.

"There's a difference between someone's words and someone's voice." Spiritual director and author Fil Anderson talks with Nathan Foster about learning to love and discern the sound of God's voice.

Dallas Willard once said, "If you don't come away for a while, you will come apart after a while." Ruth Haley Barton, author of Invitation to Retreat, joins Nathan to talk about the gift and necessity of retreat where we rest, unplug, and relinquish ourselves to God.

Losing someone close opens up new perspectives and a deep gratitude for that person's life. Songwriter, worship leader, and Renovaré Director of Communications Brian Morykon reflects on worship in the light of the loss of his mentor and friend Scott Baker.

Vices are bad habits we can rely upon to make our lives not work. So why do we do them? How do we get to the bottom of our sin-symptoms and allow The Master Physician to heal the root causes? Rebecca DeYoung, author of Glittering Vices and Vainglory, talks with Nathan Foster about ordering our loves. The Renovaré Bookclub is reading Glittering Vices together—learn more at renovare.org/bookclub.

Amisho “Sho” Baraka joins Nate for a fascinating conversation about George Washington Carver — a man whose faith directed his genius toward the good of others.

Resources

• The Man Who Talks with the Flowers: The Intimate Life Story of Dr. George Washington Carver, by Glenn Clark 
• Essential Writings of the American Black Church, by John Hunt
• Tuskegee University
• He Saw That It Was Good, by Sho Baraka
• Album: ​“The Narrative,” Sho Baraka, 2016
• “Bravery to Faithfully Create,” article by Sho Baraka on renovare.org

Other episodes with this guest

• Episode 234 : Sho Baraka — He Saw That It Was Good

Sometimes the voice, message, and volume of our secrets can dominate us. Enter confession, a spiritual practice that helps us receive forgiveness and healing. To explore this liberating spiritual discipline, Nathan Foster welcomes back Paul Patton, author, playwright, former pastor, and now artist in residence at Spring Arbor University.

"There's a lot of times people romanticize service work. It's not like that...It breaks my heart… it unravels me… People ask, 'do you have to always feel it?' I don't know how'd you'd love without feeling it." Sarah Bowling, founder of humanitarian organization Saving Moses, joins Nathan Foster again to talk about the spiritual discipline of service.

At a 2018 Renovaré Pastoral Leadership Conference, workshops were given on spiritual disciplines. Directed at pastors but applicable to all, James Catford, Renovaré board member and former British Bible Society Chief Executive, presented on the heart of service.