Explore every episode of the podcast Life After Ministry

Al Lopus knew what a healthy succession should look like. Then he started giving away work he loved.

After one leadership meeting, the cofounder of Best Christian Workplaces sat in his office feeling empty and diminished. Keeping a few responsibilities was tempting. He also knew it could undermine the handoff.

Al joins us to discuss the gap between knowing how to lead well and accepting what that requires personally. 

They talk about boards that rarely evaluate their CEOs, leaders who share survey strengths while withholding weaknesses, and the trust at stake when someone leaves a team.

Al also describes seeking outside counsel during his succession and using feedback to understand how staff experienced both leaders. 

For boards and founders preparing a handoff, the conversation offers an honest look at the work a transition plan can’t do by itself.

Key Takeaways

• A Christian mission doesn’t guarantee a healthy workplace. Leaders need to hear how employees experience the organization.
• Meaningful CEO reviews help boards clarify expectations and address concerns before a crisis.
• Staff need leaders to acknowledge weaknesses and act on feedback, even when the findings are uncomfortable.
• A thoughtful departure process should show care for the person leaving and communicate responsibly with those staying.
• Releasing meaningful work can feel like loss. Outside counsel can help a founder process that loss without reclaiming responsibility.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – When giving away leadership feels like loss
05:59 – The staff a ministry can overlook
18:06 – What boards owe their leaders
26:31 – Handling a staff departure with care
29:40 – Al’s succession and learning to let go

Resources

Explore the work of Best Christian Workplaces and Al’s book, Road to Flourishing.

Preparing for a leadership change? Start a confidential conversation at ministrytransitions.com.

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Some churches find their bylaws only after a pastor announces a departure. Then they discover the documents haven’t been reviewed in decades.

Sheila Bennett would rather help a board ask those questions earlier. With more than twenty years in church finance and operations, she sees governance as part of caring for the people doing ministry.

Sheila joins us to discuss why churches need structures that serve the organization beyond its current leader. 

We talk about choosing board members for more than proximity, understanding a congregation’s relationships, and making sure someone owns the work happening behind the scenes.

There’s also an honest exchange about why pastors avoid this material. We would prefer Leviticus to business paperwork. Sheila explains why she finds purpose in the details we’d gladly hand to someone else.

Key Takeaways

• Review governing documents before a crisis or leadership change makes the questions urgent.
• Build structures that can serve the church beyond a beloved pastor or founding team.
• Choose board members for character and useful perspectives, rather than familiarity alone.
• Church operations require an understanding of relationships as well as practical skills.
• Give capable people responsibility for the work behind the scenes so pastors aren’t carrying every concern.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – The work that helps a church outlast its leader
05:43 – How Sheila found her calling in church operations
10:52 – Why church business takes more than business skills
19:42 – Bylaws, board selection, and practical oversight
28:20 – Staying hopeful and helping churches get organized

Resources

Explore Sheila’s coauthored book, Church, Inc.: Systematic Surgery for Modern Ministry.

Check out Sheila’s ministry at ministrymanager.org

Preparing for a leadership change? Start a confidential conversation at ministrytransitions.com.

Who gets to lead when the founder is still in the room? For David and Jonathan Shibley, that question came with another relationship to protect: father and son.

On Life After Ministry, I talk with them about the succession at Global Advance and the choices that helped it work.

Jonathan served for ten years before becoming president, giving the board time to observe him and ministry partners time to know him. David continued serving while publicly supporting Jonathan's leadership.

We also discuss the pressure of comparison, the weight of becoming responsible for other people's livelihoods, and what their wives experienced along the way.

For a board preparing its own leadership handoff, this conversation gives an honest look at the preparation and personal care that a healthy succession requires.

Key Takeaways

• Give the board time to assess readiness. Jonathan's last name came with expectations. Years of service gave the board an opportunity to observe his work before appointing him president.
• Prepare people for the relationship as well as the announcement. Staff and ministry partners had opportunities to see David and Jonathan work together before the presidency changed hands.
• Give the successor room to lead differently. David affirmed Jonathan publicly and kept their disagreements between them, helping people understand whose leadership to follow.
• Ask what the family will carry. Travel demands and conversations at home affected their wives differently. Each family needed room to name what worked for them.
• Plan for meaningful life after the role. The board and Jonathan addressed David and Naomi's financial future, and David continued serving through writing and other ministry work.

Chapter Markers

00:00 A father-son succession worth learning from
01:21 How the possibility of succession began
06:22 Serving without a promised title
08:38 The three envelopes story
11:13 Preparing stakeholders and releasing authority
16:31 Giving a successor opportunities to learn
19:08 Following a father everyone knows
21:06 The weight of becoming president
27:07 Holding a ministry and an identity with humility
31:17 What their wives and families carried
36:10 When the founder remains involved
38:56 Meaningful ministry after the presidency
44:07 The work of Global Advance

Global Advance:
https://globaladvance.org/

Global Advance podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/channel/global-advance-podcasts/id6445826567

Ministry Transitions:
https://ministrytransitions.com/

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The church has a plan for who’s preaching next Sunday. Who’s checking on the pastor’s family on Monday?

For episode 100, our team at Ministry Transitions - Bill Tom, Matt Davis, Noe Rivera, and Ron Henry - talk about what has surprised us, what still breaks our hearts, and why we keep hearing, “I wish we’d found you sooner.”

Today, we get to talk with people who are asking “What now?” and “What’s next?” We also help the boards and leaders making hard decisions that will affect a family long after the announcement is over.

We talk about caring for spouses and kids, the humility to ask for help, and the moments when somebody begins to see a future again. 

After 100 episodes, we believe more strongly than ever that the church should know how to say goodbye without destroying people.

Key Takeaways

• A leader’s transition affects their spouse, children, and the wider community. Care for the family needs to be part of the plan.
• Boards need clear responsibilities and preparation before a difficult decision puts those gaps on display.
• Humility and coachability give leaders room to receive help and consider what comes next.
• Losing a ministry role can shake your identity. Relationships, meaningful work, and simple moments of joy can help you see beyond that loss.
• Old wounds deserve care, too. You can ask for help even when the transition happened years ago.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – The hole jumper and why we started
10:34 – What surprised us about this work
22:34 – Humility, hope, and life beyond a role
30:08 – What boards and families need during transition
43:34 – Hard goodbyes, old wounds, and a way forward

Resources

Facing a transition or helping someone through one? Visit ministrytransitions.com to start a confidential conversation.

To help provide care for a ministry leader who can’t afford it or lacks support, visit the website to make a donation.

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Why is it so hard to let go of a ministry you love before something forces the decision? 

Robin Fuller knows firsthand. After more than 23 years in pregnancy center ministry, she burned out and heard that only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well.

She decided to be part of that 10 percent. Robin lifted the mantle off her shoulders in front of her board and walked through a four-year succession plan that started with a simple "Things I Do" document.

Matt and Robin talk about why founders struggle most, how a poverty mindset keeps leaders in the seat too long, and why outgoing leaders need to step away for at least six months. Robin also shares her new book, Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love.

1. Succession starts long before you leave. Robin spent four years working with her board so the ministry could continue without a blip.

2. Write down what you actually do. A simple "Things I Do" list shows what to release, what to delegate, and what the next leader will need.

3. Know what will be missing when you are gone. Robin knew finances were not her gift, so she looked for a successor who was strong where she was not.

4. Pay and plan for your people. Fair pay and retirement planning keep leaders from staying too long just because they cannot afford to leave.

5. Give your successor room. Robin now encourages every outgoing leader to stay away for at least six months and to hand pride back to the Lord.

00:00 - Why Letting Go Is So Hard

Robin's story, burnout, and why only about 10 percent of ministry leaders finish well.

06:58 - The "Things I Do" Document

The simple list that showed Robin what to release and how to restructure her role.

12:10 - Why Leaders Stay Too Long

Founders, the poverty mindset, and building a healthy compensation philosophy.

20:19 - Stepping Away Well

The six-month rule, keeping staff through the handoff, and wrestling with pride.

27:30 - Finish Well: The Book

Twelve practical steps for ministry leaders and boards, plus Robin's masterminds.

If you are navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation.

Get Robin Fuller's book Finish Well: Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love and learn about her coaching and succession planning mastermind groups at robinfuller.coach. The book is also available on Amazon.

Connect with Robin on Facebook and LinkedIn.

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Anthony Barton was a successful business owner when a trust attorney asked what his family mission statement was - not his business one.

That question pushed him beyond leaving a gift toward building a legacy, and within 90 days he and his family were serving in Swaziland.

Cancer later clarified the shift. Anthony sold his company, entered seminary, and now coaches Christian entrepreneurs through Convene.

In this conversation he shares frameworks for pausing and pivoting, caring for people as image-bearers, and looking for God's providence in disruption.

6. KEY TAKEAWAYS

1. A gift and a legacy aren't the same thing. Anthony's trajectory changed when he began thinking about what his family could build together for God rather than simply what he could someday leave behind.

2. God can use disruption to clarify calling. Anthony describes cancer as brutal, but also as a season that brought unusual clarity about where his life needed to go next.

3. You cannot pivot well if you never pause. Healthy leaders and organizations stop long enough to evaluate what is happening before they change direction.

4. People are not resources. Christian leadership should see people as individuals made in the image of God, not simply inputs for organizational productivity.

5. Providence may be the most important P. In business, ministry, transition, and suffering, Anthony keeps returning to one question: Where is God's providence in all that we do?

7. CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 - Welcome Anthony Barton

Matt introduces Anthony and begins with the major turning point in 2013.

00:47 - Gift or Legacy?

A trust attorney asks Anthony a question that changes how he thinks about what he will leave his family.

07:59 - The Next Disruption: Cancer

A cancer diagnosis reshapes Anthony's understanding of life, calling, and what he wants to build.

13:15 - Protect, Pause, and Pivot

Anthony shares leadership priorities beyond profit and productivity, including pause and pivot.

23:17 - The Eight F's Diagnostic

Anthony introduces a simple framework for understanding the people you lead beyond what they produce.

8. RESOURCES

If you’re navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation.

To learn more about Anthony Barton and his work with Christian business leaders, visit Anthony Barton at Convene.

You can also explore Convene.

Resources:

Ministry Transitions

Anthony Barton at Convene

Convene

What happens when trust breaks inside a church, nonprofit, or leadership team?

Dr. Rob McKenna explains why trust is more than a feeling, how leaders can rebuild it after failure, and why succession is really the transfer of trust.

This conversation explores emotional maturity, candor, vulnerability, blind spots, competence, reliability, and the three questions every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?

• Trust has identifiable drivers, including candor, competence, reliability, emotional maturity, and concern for others.
• Nearly half of employees experience their workplace as a “jungle of trust.”
• Competence matters, but competence alone does not make someone a trusted leader.
• Rebuilding trust requires responsibility, self-awareness, grace, and continual repair.
• Succession is more than transferring a role; it is transferring trust into a team and organizational culture.
• Leaders must create conditions where people can tell the truth and receive difficult feedback.
• Every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?

00:00 – Succession as the transfer of trust
01:23 – Introducing Dr. Rob McKenna
02:15 – Why trust is difficult in ministry and nonprofit organizations
06:04 – The State of Trust at Work
08:34 – Signs that trust is missing
10:25 – Why competence alone is not enough
14:19 – What it means to be a whole leader
18:00 – Handling difficult conversations during transition
20:00 – Succession and the transfer of trust
24:51 – How leaders rebuild trust after failure
28:34 – Blind spots and meaningful change
32:44 – What individuals can do in a jungle of trust
35:57 – How organizations can begin rebuilding trust
39:00 – Closing thoughts and resources

Visit MinistryTransitions.com if a leadership transition is exposing cracks in trust. To learn more about Dr. Rob McKenna’s work, Whole Leaders, Wild Trust, and WiLD Leaders’ tools, visit wildleaders.org.

Most ministry leaders expect to decide when they step away. Dennis Atwood never had that opportunity.

After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved. 

In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it.

• Unexpected health challenges can reshape both ministry and identity.
• Grief is a natural part of leaving a calling you deeply love.
• Gratitude isn't the absence of suffering but a response to God's faithfulness within it.
• Ministry leaders need purpose beyond the title they hold.
• God often brings deep spiritual formation through seasons we would never choose.

00:00 Dennis' pastoral journey and ministry background

01:45 An early Parkinson's diagnosis changes everything

03:30 Why Dennis kept his diagnosis private for years

07:45 Telling the church and preparing for transition

11:00 Missing ministry more than expected

13:15 Becoming a caregiver and navigating family transition

14:30 Holy discontent and living with purpose

16:20 Choosing gratitude through suffering

20:00 The dark night of the soul and spiritual formation

25:30 Encouragement for leaders whose ministry ended unexpectedly

If you're facing a ministry transition or unexpected life change, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Dennis and his book Choosing Gratitude at Market Square Books.

Missionaries spend years preparing to go to the field, but few are prepared for what it feels like to come home.

After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community.

Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country. 

Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition.

• Reverse culture shock can be more difficult than moving overseas.
• Missionary transitions affect spouses, children, and the entire family.
• God often prepares leaders for future seasons long before they understand why.
• Returning missionaries bring valuable wisdom that can strengthen the local church.
• Waiting on God is an active posture of trust, not passive inactivity.

00:00 Job loss, the desert season, and God's unexpected call to Germany

04:30 Reaching a post-Christian culture through relationships

07:15 When God said it was time to come home

11:15 Reverse culture shock and becoming strangers in your own country

16:00 Helping third-culture kids navigate transition

20:15 How churches can better care for returning missionaries

23:30 What America can learn from post-Christian Europe

26:45 Financial transitions and rebuilding support

30:00 Waiting on God and discerning what's next

34:00 The Bruns Tribe and engaging the spiritually disengaged

36:30 Encouragement for missionaries in transition

If you're navigating a ministry transition, we'd love to help. Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Nate and Brittany's ministry at The Bruns Tribe.

Few ministry leaders expect the end of their pastoral chapter to unfold differently than they imagined. Yet for many, transition arrives carrying both grief and unexpected opportunity.

In this honest conversation, Scott Sauls reflects on stepping away after more than 30 years of pastoral ministry, processing the loss of a role he loved, recovering from work addiction, and discovering a new calling shepherding high-capacity leaders. 

Along the way, he offers wisdom about identity, friendship, reconciliation, and trusting God when the future feels uncertain.

• Ministry transitions often bring grief and relief at the same time.
• Work addiction can quietly shape a leader's identity and relationships.
• Healthy transitions begin with embracing who you are apart from your role.
• Every leader needs authentic friendships, not just professional relationships.
• The gospel calls us to love across differences, especially when it's difficult.

00:00 Scott's ministry journey and pastoral background

02:20 An unexpected transition from pastoral ministry

05:00 Grief, relief, and leaving a church you love

07:00 Confronting work addiction through recovery

09:30 Is Scott still a pastor?

11:00 The birth of the Sycamore Community

16:30 Shepherding leaders outside the local church

18:30 The impact of ministry transitions on spouses and families

21:00 Loving across the lines of difference

27:00 The Mercy King and God's relentless love

If you're navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Scott's work at Scott Sauls.

Founder transitions are some of the most difficult moments in ministry leadership, but they don't have to end poorly.

After leading the church he planted for 27 years, Keith Spurgin shares the lessons he learned about succession, feedback, sabbaticals, and letting go with confidence. 

He also reflects on the leadership mistakes he nearly made during COVID and how stepping away for a year ultimately prepared both him and his church for a healthy transition.

• Healthy succession planning begins years before the transition.
• Founder transitions often succeed when leadership is shared rather than concentrated in one successor.
• Sabbaticals create space for leaders to rediscover who they are apart from their role.
• Feedback reveals blind spots that leaders cannot see on their own.
• Legacy is built by preparing others to succeed after you're gone.

00:00 Introduction and Keith's ministry journey

00:45 Nearly derailing a succession plan during COVID

01:45 Why handing leadership to a team changed everything

06:45 Building trust before succession

07:45 Why Keith stayed away for six months after stepping down

09:00 Lessons from an unexpected year-long sabbatical

15:20 Why every leader needs honest feedback

18:15 Processing life after ministry

24:00 The Growth Resourcing Group

26:00 Unknown: Finding Connection in a Disconnected World

27:30 Why Keith's next book is about finishing well

Preparing for a leadership transition? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Keith's leadership resources at Keith Spurgin.

Many leaders secretly believe their value comes from what they do. But what happens when the title disappears, the ministry ends, or life takes a turn you never expected?

In this deeply personal conversation, Steve Cummings shares his journey through ministry leadership, addiction recovery, job loss, financial uncertainty, and ultimately discovering a deeper identity as a beloved son of God. 

From sitting in rehab at age 55 to working at Home Depot and eventually launching Bringing Kingdom, Steve offers hope for anyone learning to trust God in a season they never planned for.

• Your identity is not determined by your title, income, or position.
• Hidden struggles become more dangerous when they remain isolated.
• Recovery begins when honesty replaces shame.
• God often uses seasons of transition to reveal deeper truths about who we are.
• Ministry is not confined to a church building or nonprofit organization.

00:00 Friendship, ministry history, and Steve's background

01:30 Seminary, missed opportunities, and unexpected career turns

03:45 Building a career in nonprofit ministry

06:00 Hidden struggles, addiction, and personal collapse

08:00 Rehab, recovery, and discovering the deeper issues

11:00 Losing a ministry position and starting over

12:30 Working at Home Depot and confronting identity

16:00 Launching Bringing Kingdom

21:30 The Father Eclipse and understanding father wounds

28:00 Helping men discover their identity

31:30 Financial uncertainty, faith, and trusting God's provision

40:30 Is there life after ministry?

If you're navigating a leadership transition or difficult season, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Steve's ministry at Bringing Kingdom.

Most leaders know succession planning matters. Far fewer know how to start the conversation.

In this episode, Gary Blackard, President and CEO of Adult & Teen Challenge USA, shares lessons from leading a national ministry, navigating leadership transitions, and helping people find hope in the midst of life's most difficult challenges.

From succession planning and organizational stewardship to addiction recovery and spiritual formation, Gary offers practical wisdom for leaders who want their influence to outlast their tenure.

• Succession planning is an act of stewardship, not a signal that leadership is ending.
• Leaders often avoid succession conversations because of fear, identity, or lack of self-awareness.
• Hope is a critical ingredient in personal transformation and lasting change.
• Healthy leadership begins with a strong private relationship with God.
• Legacy is protected when leaders intentionally prepare others to carry the mission forward.

00:00 Introduction and Gary's leadership journey

01:30 Transitioning into Adult & Teen Challenge leadership

04:20 The history and mission of Adult & Teen Challenge

09:40 Ministry leaders, addiction, and the importance of the private altar

12:00 Spiritual disciplines that sustain healthy leadership

15:20 Why hope matters during seasons of change

18:30 Facing the succession elephant

21:30 Why leaders avoid succession planning

27:00 Building a lasting leadership legacy

33:40 The Hope Within Reach podcast and helping families navigate addiction

37:00 Final thoughts and encouragement

Navigating a leadership transition or preparing for succession? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Listen to Hope Within Reach and learn more about Adult & Teen Challenge at Adult & Teen Challenge USA 

Success in ministry can hide struggles that few people ever see. 

While Will Acuff was helping build a nonprofit that would eventually launch thousands of entrepreneurs and transform communities, his family was walking through years of exhaustion, medical challenges, and uncertainty. 

The contrast forced him to confront a difficult question: what happens when the strategies that helped you succeed no longer work?

In this conversation, Will shares the lessons he learned through leadership succession, personal suffering, and the unexpected journey that led him to write No Elevator to Everest. 

For leaders facing transition, burnout, or uncertainty, this episode offers a hopeful vision for finding joy that is not dependent on circumstances.

• Succession works best when leadership development starts long before the transition.
• Healthy transitions require trust, coaching, and ongoing support after the handoff.
• High-capacity leaders often struggle to acknowledge their own pain and limitations.
• Joy is cultivated through intentional practices, not favorable circumstances.
• Faithful leadership requires both knowledge of God and honest knowledge of ourselves.

00:00 Welcome and Will's ministry background

03:45 Launching Corner to Corner and helping entrepreneurs escape poverty

07:50 Why the Church should lead community transformation

11:10 Succession planning and transitioning leadership as a founder

19:55 Parenting through complex disabilities and chronic hardship

24:00 Creating a "joy lab" in the middle of suffering

29:00 The story behind No Elevator to Everest

31:00 Advice for burned-out ministry leaders

35:00 Finding joy in the middle of hard

35:40 Resources, book, and final encouragement

If you're navigating a ministry transition or leadership challenge, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Will's work at Corner to Corner and his book at No Elevator to Everest.

Leaving ministry is rarely a simple decision. 

For many pastors, it comes after years of carrying responsibility, managing expectations, and trying to care for everyone around them while quietly neglecting themselves and their families. 

In this episode, Shawn Gwaltney shares the story of how ministry slowly became unsustainable, what pushed him toward transition, and how he eventually rediscovered purpose through business, mentorship, and helping others find clarity. 

This conversation offers hope for leaders wrestling with burnout, identity loss, and the fear of what comes next after ministry.

• Ministry burnout often grows slowly through constant emotional pressure and unclear boundaries
• Many pastors already possess leadership and relational skills that transfer well into the marketplace
• Identity can become deeply tied to the title of “pastor,” making transition emotionally difficult
• Healthy leadership in business still requires empathy, discipleship, and genuine care for people
• Clarity is often the first step toward healing and rebuilding after ministry transition

• 00:00 – Shawn’s return to church and entry into ministry
• 03:20 – The pressures that pushed ministry toward burnout
• 07:20 – Choosing family over vocational ministry
• 10:20 – Systems pastors wish they had built sooner
• 11:20 – Transferable leadership skills pastors already have
• 16:00 – Wrestling with identity after leaving ministry
• 18:30 – Faith, wealth, and business ownership
• 23:00 – Helping pastors find clarity after transition
• 26:00 – Meaning, purpose, and life after success
• 28:20 – Shawn’s mission to help others grow

If you’re navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions.

And to connect with Shawn Gwaltney and learn more about his mentorship and business resources, visit Shawn Gwaltney.

The Church is carrying more tension than many leaders know how to navigate. Political polarization, fractured trust, rising anxiety, and unrealistic expectations on pastors are reshaping congregations across the country. 

In this conversation, Dr. Andrew Hale shares why he believes the Church is not collapsing but entering a moment of reformation. 

Together, we explore how ministry leaders can stop treating non-essential issues as ultimate ones, rebuild authentic community, and lead congregations toward healthier relationships rooted in Christ instead of cultural division.

• Conflict in the Church is not new, but today’s divisions are being amplified by politics and cultural anxiety.
• Many churches have elevated non-essential issues above the central mission of Jesus.
• Ministry leaders are carrying unrealistic expectations while trust in institutions continues to decline.
• Healthy churches create space for diverse perspectives and authentic relationships.
• This cultural moment may be less about the collapse of the Church and more about a needed reformation.

• 00:00 — Andrew Hale’s ministry background and love for the Church
• 03:00 — Why churches are becoming more divided
• 07:42 — Organizational psychology and understanding conflict
• 09:16 — Essential vs. non-essential issues in the Church
• 16:18 — Declining trust in institutions and ministry burnout
• 19:12 — Have we placed too much pressure on pastors?
• 23:19 — Why this moment may be reformation, not collapse
• 27:24 — Political idolatry and the future of the Church
• 30:57 — Where to find Dr. Andrew Hale and his book

If this conversation resonated with you, we’d encourage you to take the next step. Whether you’re navigating conflict, leadership transition, succession planning, or simply trying to lead your church through a complicated season with wisdom and clarity, the team at Ministry Transitions is here to help. 

You can also learn more from Dr. Andrew Hale’s work on church health, division, and renewal at AndrewRHale.com and explore his book Mending the Fracturing Church wherever books are sold.

Leadership transitions often expose something many leaders spend years trying to hide: the fear that they are not enough for the role they carry. 

Whether it is a pastor navigating succession, a nonprofit executive facing organizational change, or a CEO realizing old leadership methods no longer work, the pressure to appear confident and certain can quietly isolate leaders from the people they serve. 

In this conversation, Jim Brown shares why healthy leadership begins when leaders stop trying to be the hero of the organization and start building collaborative cultures where people feel valued, empowered, and trusted.

Together, we explore the emotional realities underneath leadership transitions, difficult staffing decisions, and organizational change. 

They discuss why so many leaders stay too long, how fear often disguises itself as faithfulness, and why humility and vulnerability are becoming essential leadership qualities in today’s world. 

The conversation offers practical wisdom for ministry leaders who want to navigate transition seasons with greater clarity, courage, and care.

• Healthy leadership creates space for others to contribute instead of positioning the leader as the hero.
• Vulnerability from leaders gives teams permission to be honest, collaborative, and engaged.
• Most organizational problems are people and culture problems before they become strategy problems.
• Transition conversations are rarely perfect, but avoiding them often causes greater harm.
• Fear keeps many leaders in roles long after their season has changed.

00:00 Welcome and introducing Jim Brown

01:40 Why leadership perfection is impossible

04:00 How leadership expectations have changed

06:50 Why today’s leaders need humility and flexibility

08:30 Building collaborative cultures that empower people

12:30 Vulnerability, mistakes, and healthier leadership

13:40 The framework behind The Imperfect CEO

19:30 Helping leaders overcome imposter syndrome

20:50 Why transitions are never perfectly executed

24:00 Difficult staffing conversations and leadership courage

26:40 Why some ministry leaders stay too long

28:00 Resources for churches and healthy leadership

• • Start a conversation with the Ministry Transitions team: https://ministrytransitions.com
  • Explore free leadership transition resources: https://ministrytransitions.com/resources

The Imperfect CEO – Jim Brown’s upcoming book releasing May 19:

• Order your copy immediately at https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1637749023
• For the best deals, order bulk at https://imperfectceobook.com/

Connect with Jim Brown:

• LinkedIn: @authorjimbrown
• Instagram: @orghealthteam
• Facebook: OrgHealth

Church transitions often expose what has been neglected for years. 

In this conversation, longtime pastor Wayne Hoag reflects on the painful lessons he learned after leaving one church unprepared for his departure and how that experience shaped a completely different approach to succession later in ministry. 

Together, we explore what healthy pastoral transitions require: humility, long-term preparation, deep love for the church, and the willingness to release control before crisis forces the issue.

The conversation also digs into the spiritual side of leadership transition. Wayne shares how unity and love inside the body of Christ become especially important during seasons of change and why churches that avoid difficult conversations often create deeper wounds later.

• Healthy pastoral succession starts years before the actual transition.
• Churches often avoid transition conversations until crisis forces them.
• A pastor must gradually release responsibility if the next leader is going to succeed.
• Unity in the church is built around Christ, not personalities or preferences.
• Ministry purpose does not end when a pastor steps away from the pulpit.

00:00 - Wayne’s painful lesson from leaving a church unprepared 

03:34 - Building a long-term succession plan 

05:45 - Identifying and mentoring the next pastor 

07:53 - The temptation to hold onto control 

09:52 - How the church stayed unified during transition 

15:13 - The heart behind The One Another Project 

17:43 - Why churches struggle with unity and love 

19:49 - Why pastoral transitions create vulnerability 

23:48 - What healthy transitions require from leaders 

25:33 - Discovering purpose after pastoral ministry 

30:36 - Why churches cannot afford to ignore succession planning

Start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions to learn more about healthy pastoral succession, church leadership transition planning, and life after ministry at ministrytransitions.com. 

You can also connect with Wayne Hoag and explore The One Another Project, his book, blog, and ministry resources at oneanotheronline.org. 

Whether you are preparing proactively for a transition or navigating one right now, both ministries exist to help churches pursue healthy leadership handoffs rooted in unity, wisdom, and care for the body of Christ.

Leadership transitions often don’t fail in the moment they happen. They begin to unravel long before that. 

In unclear expectations, undefined roles, and decisions made without discernment. 

This episode explores how fear, lack of clarity, and misaligned leadership structures quietly shape outcomes. It offers a clearer path forward for leaders and boards navigating change.

• Fear of mistakes can stall leadership more than mistakes themselves
• Decision-making and spiritual discernment are not the same skill
• Most ministry breakdowns begin with unclear expectations around results
• Boards often drift into staff roles when responsibilities aren’t defined
• Healthy transitions require humility, clarity, and shared understanding

 00:00 — Introduction and John’s leadership background 02:30 — How ministry has changed over time 06:30 — Fear, mistakes, and leadership growth 10:50 — The danger of unclear expectations in leadership 16:50 — Board roles vs. staff roles explained 19:50 — What leaders often get wrong in transitions 28:00 — Why board training is so difficult to scale 32:50 — A defining moment of spiritual discernment 39:00 — Recommended books and final thoughts

If this conversation surfaced something in your own leadership or board dynamics, don’t leave it there.

Start a conversation with us at https://ministrytransitions.com. Whether you’re in the middle of a transition or trying to prepare for one, having the right guide can bring clarity to what feels uncertain.

And if you want to go deeper into the ideas John shared around leadership, governance, and learning from mistakes, you can explore his work at https://managementbuckets.com. His insights are practical, seasoned, and grounded in decades of real ministry experience.

You don’t have to figure this out alone. Start the conversation.

Succession is one of the most important moments in the life of a ministry.

And one of the most misunderstood.

After decades working with leading Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth has watched leadership transitions unfold from behind the scenes. 

Some created momentum and clarity. Others quietly eroded trust, fractured relationships, and stalled mission.

What makes the difference?

In this episode, Steve shares the patterns he’s seen across hundreds of organizations, why internal succession is often more effective, and how boards and leaders can work together to create a “no drama” transition.

This conversation is both practical and deeply human, addressing not just strategy but identity, trust, and the emotional reality leaders face as they step out of their roles.

• The healthiest successions begin years before the actual transition • Internal candidates have a significantly higher success rate than external hires • Culture fit is one of the biggest predictors of success or failure • Boards often underestimate their need for outside help • Mistreating outgoing leaders can damage donor trust and organizational stability • Leaders must plan not just what they are leaving, but what they are going toward • Humility and collaboration are essential for a “no drama” succession

00:00 — Introduction to Steve Woodworth 01:36 — Why he wrote Lost in Transition 05:00 — Patterns in healthy vs unhealthy successions 07:15 — Why culture fit matters so much 09:23 — Internal vs external successors 12:43 — What happens when you don’t prepare 16:03 — The emotional weight of stepping down 17:58 — Mistreating outgoing leaders 20:56 — What leaders need to hear before retiring 23:10 — Transitioning into what’s next 26:27 — The challenge of founder succession 31:07 — Gone too soon vs stayed too long 35:12 — The critical role of boards 39:56 — What’s changing in succession today

If you’re navigating a leadership transition or want to prepare your organization before challenges arise, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps leaders and boards plan wisely and finish strong. 

You can also connect with Steve Woodworth’s insights through his book Lost in Transition and his work at https://masterworks.agency or on LinkedIn, where he shares ongoing wisdom for leaders facing succession decisions. These resources exist to help you steward both the ending and the next beginning with clarity and care.

Leadership often looks clear in hindsight, but confusing in the moment.

For Tami Heim, the journey into leadership began with a dramatic shift in ambition. Just days after graduating college, she surrendered her plans to follow Christ, stepping into a life where leadership was no longer about advancement but obedience.

Over the next several decades, that calling would lead her through massive corporate change, cultural disruption, and deeply personal trials. 

From navigating retail mergers during the rise of Amazon to leading during national crises and personal loss, each moment shaped how she understands faith, leadership, and God’s faithfulness.

Today, as president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, Tami helps equip leaders across more than 125 countries. 

In this conversation, she shares how leaders can seek God in uncertainty, navigate disruption, and lead with both competence and spiritual depth.

This episode is an invitation to rediscover leadership as an adventure with God rather than a platform to control.

• Leadership growth often comes through disruption and difficulty, not comfort
• God’s faithfulness becomes clearer after walking through multiple seasons of crisis
• Spiritual formation is just as critical as leadership competency
• Healthy leadership requires wise guides, side guides, and gospel community
• Seeking God together as a team can transform how organizations navigate uncertainty
• Identity must remain rooted in Christ rather than in leadership roles
• Strong leadership transitions require trust in God’s timing and openness to what comes next

00:00 — Introduction to Tami Heim 02:08 — Management, stewardship, and leadership 04:42 — Being saved from personal ambition 07:06 — Business as ministry before it was common 09:57 — The role of Christian community in leadership 12:09 — Leading through crisis and disruption 14:19 — Navigating 9/11 and national uncertainty 16:44 — When COVID threatened the future of CLA 18:45 — Leadership during seasons of transition 20:21 — Seeking God first as an organization 23:10 — Identity beyond leadership roles 26:25 — Multiply, not divide 30:55 — The ache of ministry leaders 33:44 — What makes the Outcomes Conference unique 37:31 — Leadership, presence, and meaningful conversations 40:02 — Final invitation to Outcomes Conference

If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, succession conversation, or difficult ministry change, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps churches and nonprofits protect people, preserve mission, and plan what comes next. 

You can also explore more about the Christian Leadership Alliance and the Outcomes Conference at https://outcomesconference.org. These resources exist to help leaders finish strong and step confidently into whatever God has next.

Thanks for listening to the Life After Ministry podcast.

There’s a kind of grief that doesn’t come with a clear loss. No funeral. No ending. Just the quiet ache of something that never came to be. For many in ministry, this kind of grief goes unnamed and unaddressed.

Drew Hensley calls it “invisible grief.” It’s the pain of unrealized hopes, whether that’s infertility, singleness, unmet expectations, or a future you were certain God was leading you toward. 

And because it’s unseen, it often gets buried under responsibility, performance, and the pressure to keep showing up.

In this conversation, Drew shares his personal journey through infertility while pastoring, the unhealthy ways he coped, and the turning point that led him toward honesty, lament, and healing. 

This episode offers a grounded, honest look at how to carry grief without losing your faith.

• Invisible grief is the pain of what has never been and may never be
• Ministry leaders often carry grief privately while serving others publicly
• Avoiding grief doesn’t silence it. It reshapes how it shows up
• Lament is a necessary spiritual practice, not a lack of faith
• Joy and grief are not opposites. They can coexist
• Healing begins with honesty, first with God, then with others
• The church grows stronger when it learns to sit with people in unresolved pain

00:00 – Introduction to Invisible Grief 02:00 – Defining grief that no one sees 05:00 – Drew’s infertility story begins 08:30 – The weight of grief in ministry leadership 12:00 – Coping, numbing, and emotional exhaustion 17:30 – The turning point: honesty with God 20:30 – Why joy and grief are not opposites 26:30 – A framework: lay down, pick up, move forward 30:00 – Adoption, redemption, and unresolved tension 33:00 – Is the church good at grief? 37:00 – Final reflections on trust and faith

If you’re navigating a difficult transition, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call, support leaders in transition, or find guidance for what’s next. You can explore Drew Hensley’s book Invisible Grief wherever books are sold. Take the next step toward honest healing and wise transition today.

Many ministry leaders begin their journey with a genuine desire to serve. But somewhere along the way, leadership can quietly become something else. 

Platforms grow. Expectations rise. Applause becomes affirmation. And before long, influence begins to shape identity.

Eric Reid spent years traveling the world teaching leadership alongside John Maxwell. From the outside, it looked like success. But internally, Eric began to notice a troubling pattern. 

Leadership had become a performance, a way to earn approval rather than simply serve people.

In this conversation with Matt Davis, Eric reflects on the personal awakening that led him to write Leadership Was Never My Calling. 

Together they unpack the deep tensions many leaders carry: the pull toward platform, the pressure to perform, and the quiet invitation of Jesus to step down the ladder and serve with humility.

• Leadership can easily become a hiding place for insecurity and identity wounds • Applause and affirmation can become addictive forms of validation • Performance and presence are very different ways of leading • Many leaders carry unresolved father wounds that shape how they pursue influence • Small, unseen acts of faithfulness often carry the greatest kingdom impact • True Christlike leadership begins at the bottom of the ladder, not the top • Freedom comes when leaders shift from building influence to serving people

00:00 – Introducing Eric Reid and the question of calling 02:00 – The origin of the book Leadership Was Never My Calling 05:20 – Performance versus presence in ministry leadership 08:30 – The addiction to applause and approval 11:20 – Father wounds and identity in leadership 16:00 – Navigating significance while remaining faithful 19:50 – The power of small, unseen acts of service 23:20 – Surrendering career outcomes to God 26:40 – When leaders feel their best years are behind them 28:30 – Why stepping down the ladder leads to freedom

If you’re navigating a ministry transition or wrestling with what comes next, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to explore confidential coaching and support. You can also learn more about Eric Reid and his upcoming book at https://lwnc.net.

What happens when a pastor steps away after decades of leading a church?

Many leaders imagine retirement will bring peace and freedom. 

But for pastors, the transition often carries unexpected weight. The loss of identity, the quiet grief of leaving a community, and the challenge of rediscovering purpose can make the next season far more complicated than anticipated.

After serving the same church for 35 years, Doug Bullock faced this reality firsthand. What began as a thoughtful transition into retirement turned into a deeper journey through loss, identity, and calling. 

In the process, he discovered that many pastors are unprepared for the emotional and spiritual questions that follow the end of pastoral leadership.

In this conversation, Doug shares what surprised him most after stepping away from ministry and why retiring pastors still have a crucial role in strengthening the church. 

Together they explore how pastors can process loss, redeem past pain, and find renewed purpose beyond the pulpit.

• Retirement from ministry often includes unexpected grief and identity loss • Many pastors are unprepared for the emotional impact of stepping away • Feelings of obscurity after decades of leadership can be surprisingly difficult • Retired pastors still carry valuable wisdom that can benefit younger leaders • Churches rarely have a clear vision for how retired pastors can remain involved • Processing pain and past failures is essential for healthy transition • Flourishing after ministry means continuing to walk with Christ and serve faithfully in new ways

 00:00 – Meeting Doug Bullock and his book New Dawn 01:05 – Recognizing when it was time to step away from pastoral leadership 03:59 – Transitioning out of ministry and returning to school 06:00 – Discovering the deeper questions of pastoral retirement 08:07 – The emotional struggles pastors face after stepping down 11:03 – The experience of becoming unknown after years of leadership 13:41 – The key questions pastors must wrestle with in retirement 23:26 – Why many retired pastors struggle attending church 28:13 – The tension between older and younger pastoral generations 32:28 – The coming wave of pastoral retirements 34:03 – What it means to truly flourish in retirement 36:04 – Advice for pastors preparing to step away from ministry 38:37 – Redeeming past pain and helping the next generation

If you’re navigating a ministry transition or preparing for what comes next, visit ministrytransitions.com to find guidance, resources, or schedule a confidential conversation. 

You can also explore Doug Bullock’s book New Dawn: Helping Pastors Flourish in Retirement on Amazon or connect with him directly at DTS844@gmail.com.

What happens when the calling that once defined you no longer feels sustainable? When the work you love begins to cost you more than you can carry? 

For many ministry leaders, the hardest battles are not theological. They are personal. Emotional. Quiet. And often fought alone.

In this episode, Matt Davis sits down with Don Ross, former pastor and founder of Manhood Tribes, to talk about why so many men struggle in silence, especially during seasons of ministry transition. 

After two decades in large evangelical church leadership, Don stepped away - not because he stopped loving Jesus, but because the system was breaking him. 

What followed was a difficult transition marked by uncertainty, financial pressure, and identity questions that many ministry leaders quietly face. This conversation pulls back the curtain on isolation, addiction, shame, and the deep need for brotherhood. 

If you are navigating transition, questioning your direction, or responsible for leading others through change, this episode offers both clarity and hope. 

No man should have to walk alone.

• Ministry leadership can be both deeply fulfilling and profoundly exhausting at the same time.
• Many church systems unintentionally isolate pastors rather than care for them.
• Churches often struggle to reach men because they build connection models that don’t align with how men bond.
• Pornography addiction thrives in isolation and shame, even among pastors.
• Bringing struggle into the light is the first step toward freedom.
• Transition seasons destabilize identity, especially around provision and purpose.
• Intentional, challenge-based brotherhood can anchor men during seasons of uncertainty.

 00:00 – Introduction and framing the conversation about men 01:00 – Don’s ministry journey and transition 06:00 – The celebrity pastor model and systemic pressure 08:00 – Why churches struggle to reach men 16:00 – The five marks of manhood 19:00 – Pornography, shame, and isolation 24:00 – How tribes work differently than typical men’s groups 31:00 – Financial pressure and identity in transition 37:00 – Fulfillment after leaving vocational ministry

Ready to take your next step? Visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession. Explore Don’s resources at ManhoodTribes.com and take the quiz at HowManlyAreYou.com. If this episode helped you, consider donating to support leaders navigating transition.

Is there really a difference between ministry and the marketplace? Or have we created a divide that Scripture never intended?

In this episode, Curt Swindoll shares insights from 40 years of leadership across nonprofit, church, and for-profit environments. 

Having transitioned multiple times - sometimes with a plan, sometimes without - Curt challenges the assumption that ministry is something we leave behind. 

Instead, he invites leaders to rethink their posture toward God, especially during seasons of uncertainty.

For leaders navigating burnout, succession, or vocational transition, this conversation reframes the journey. 

The issue is not whether you are in ministry or business. The deeper issue is whether you are living for God or with Him. 

And that distinction changes everything.

• There is no sacred-secular divide. God is as present in the marketplace as in the church.
• Burnout often reveals a “for God” posture that has replaced a “with God” relationship.
• Transitions are rarely clean; God’s presence is not dependent on clarity.
• Work is one of the primary places of spiritual formation.
• Discernment is not about finding one perfect path but learning to journey wisely with God.
• Succession is less about ending ministry and more about shifting where and how ministry happens.
• Peace and freedom are often the deeper invitation beneath vocational change.

00:00 – Is There Really Life After Ministry? 02:30 – Sacred vs. Secular: A False Divide 07:00 – Transitioning Without a Plan 10:00 – Life With God vs. Life For God 15:00 – Burnout and Identity in Ministry 21:00 – The Role of Spiritual Formation and Marriage 24:00 – Moving Between Ministry and Marketplace 29:00 – God at the Door in Seasons of Anxiety 33:00 – Lessons from a Lifetime of Ministry Transitions 43:00 – Succession, Discernment, and “Never Say Never” 50:00 – Practical Resources and Final Encouragement

If this conversation stirred something in you - whether you're navigating a leadership transition, discerning succession, or simply longing to experience more of a life with God - there are a few trusted next steps. 

For confidential support and guidance through ministry transitions, visit https://ministrytransitions.com. 

To explore spiritual formation resources and connect with trained spiritual directors, go to https://graftedlife.org. 

And if you're leading an organization and want clarity, traction, and a healthier operating rhythm, learn more about EOS at https://www.eosworldwide.com or connect directly with Curt at https://www.eosworldwide.com/curt-swindoll. Wherever you are in your journey, you don’t have to walk it alone.

What if the biggest lie Christian leaders believe is that ministry only happens inside church walls?

When pastors and nonprofit leaders transition into the marketplace, many feel like they’ve stepped out of calling and into something lesser. But that assumption may be the very thing limiting the Church’s influence.

In this episode, we talk with Chuck Proudfit about faith at work, succession challenges, leadership continuity, and why Christians must rethink the sacred-secular divide. 

This conversation reframes work as worship and challenges leaders to build legacy that outlives them.

• Work is not secular space. It is strategic deployment.
• The sacred-secular divide quietly undermines Christian leadership.
• Most succession failures begin long before the transition announcement.
• Boards must proactively ask leaders about their 10-year vision.
• Continuity requires infrastructure, not just inspiration.
• Community shapes faith at work more effectively than content alone.
• Leadership legacy must include both personal and organizational clarity.

00:00 – Introduction and Chuck’s faith journey 03:15 – Work as worship and the sacred-secular divide 06:44 – Faith in consulting and marketplace leadership 07:33 – Why church transitions struggle 10:13 – Organic ministry in the workplace 13:30 – The birth of At Work On Purpose 16:44 – Spiritual formation through work 19:05 – The Faith at Work Summit and future frontiers 20:43 – Continuity, succession, and leadership legacy 25:15 – Invitation to the Summit

If you are navigating a leadership transition, preparing for succession, or reimagining how faith integrates with your everyday work, take your next step today. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation about your transition, explore how faith and work come together at https://atworkonpurpose.org/, and learn more about the global Faith at Work Summit at https://faithatworksummit2026.com/. Whether you are leaving vocational ministry, leading through change, or building what comes next, you do not have to do it alone.

Most ministry leaders expect relief after stepping away. What they don’t expect is the wilderness to begin after the resignation.

In this honest conversation, Dustin Kleinschmidt shares how years of crisis leadership, misaligned values, and unresolved grief led to burnout, anxiety, and a deep reckoning with faith. 

Rather than rushing toward resolution, Dustin invites leaders to reconsider what the wilderness is actually for.

This episode reframes suffering, challenges Christian shortcuts around pain, and offers language for leaders who feel stuck between obedience and disappointment. 

If you’ve ever wondered whether you missed God or why healing is taking so long, this conversation meets you right where you are.

• Burnout is often the result of long-term erosion, not one failure
• Healthy systems can’t sustain you in an unhealthy environment
• The wilderness often begins after the role ends
• Spiritual bypassing keeps leaders disconnected from their real pain
• Value misalignment creates invisible but constant friction
• Healing doesn’t mean closure or clarity
• God’s presence in the wilderness matters more than getting out of it

• 00:00 – Dustin’s ministry journey and early formation
• 03:30 – Crisis leadership and long-term erosion
• 06:20 – When sustainability quietly disappears
• 09:30 – Why good systems still fail in toxic environments
• 11:20 – Entering the wilderness after resignation
• 15:20 – Spiritual bypassing and emotional honesty
• 18:30 – The Exodus, expectations, and disappointment with God
• 24:00 – Living faithfully without resolution
• 28:15 – The Wilderness Way: book, workbook, and music

If you’re in the wilderness and looking for faithful companions along the way, explore The Wilderness Way and Ministry Transitions. Together, they offer resources to help you live honestly with God in hard seasons and engage Scripture with deeper historical and spiritual clarity. Learn more at https://www.dustinkleinschmidt.com and https://thejewishroad.com.

Stepping away from leadership is rarely just a strategic decision. It’s personal. Emotional. Spiritual. Especially for founders and long-term leaders who have poured their lives into a ministry.

In this episode, Jim West reflects on what it meant to hand off leadership of the Barnabas Group, a ministry he helped build and lead for over two decades. 

Just weeks after that transition, Jim was diagnosed with cancer, forcing him into a season of surrender he never planned.

This conversation explores succession, identity, grief, and trust. It’s an honest look at what happens when God asks you to release what you love, and how unexpected seasons can become some of the most formative and meaningful of your life.

• Succession is not an emergency plan. It’s a discipleship issue.
• Founders often grieve more than they expect when they step away.
• A ministry continuing without you can be a sign of health, not failure.
• Forced stillness can protect both leaders and organizations.
• Identity untethered from role allows for deeper trust in God.
• Life after ministry can be fuller, not smaller.
• Transitions require guides, not just decisions.

• 00:00 – Jim’s path into the Barnabas Group
• 03:30 – Recognizing the need for succession
• 05:20 – Passing the baton and receiving a cancer diagnosis
• 07:40 – Watching the ministry grow without him
• 11:50 – Faith, cancer, and spiritual clarity
• 16:00 – Discovering life and ministry after leadership
• 27:10 – Advice for leaders facing transition

If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, visit ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential conversation and get support that protects people, preserves purpose, and plans wisely for what’s next.

Most ministry transitions don’t happen suddenly. They happen slowly, quietly, and later than they should. 

In this season-ending episode, we reflect on the patterns Ministry Transitions has seen over the past year while walking with pastors, boards, nonprofits, and faith-driven organizations.

From delayed conversations to the quiet crisis of succession, this episode names the realities leaders often feel but rarely say out loud. 

It’s an honest look at why transitions feel so heavy, why waiting makes them harder, and how support can change the outcome entirely.

This is not a forecast for what’s next. It’s a grounded invitation to name what’s already here and walk through it with wisdom, care, and courage.

• Most transitions happen later than they should, not because of neglect but misplaced protection
• Waiting does not make transitions easier. It makes them more expensive
• Succession planning is about stewardship, not replacement
• Ministry transitions extend far beyond the church into nonprofits and faith-driven organizations
• Many leaders engage support only after the ending has already occurred
• Leaders are often relieved, not resistant, when care is offered
• Support consistently changes outcomes for leaders and organizations

• 00:00 – When transition feels unfinished
• 05:20 – Why transitions are happening too late
• 11:10 – Succession as a silent crisis
• 17:30 – Ministry beyond the church walls
• 23:45 – Why people listen quietly
• 29:10 – What happens when leaders are offered support
• 35:40 – Why support changes outcomes

If you’re in a transition, leading others through one, or want to help someone who didn’t see this coming, visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call, explore resources, or give toward supporting a leader in transition. You don’t have to walk this alone.

At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right. 

But deep down, we know something’s wrong.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever.

This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry.

• Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him.
• Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust.
• Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life.
• Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence.
• True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt.
• Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans.
• You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God.

• 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years
• 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout
• 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress
• 07:03 – Solving the time problem
• 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal?
• 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time
• 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace
• 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time
• 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout
• 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together

• Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com
• Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once. 

In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense. 

Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling.

From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see. 

And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God.

This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect.

• How God can initiate a transition long before you understand it.
• Why community and spiritual friends are essential during vocational upheaval.
• What happens when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving.
• How unaddressed wounds from ministry begin to surface during transitions.
• Why the Lord’s Prayer is a daily blueprint for grounding, clarity, and direction.
• The difference between assignment and calling in a leader’s life.
• How God works slowly, quietly, and faithfully in seasons that feel stalled.

00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads 01:10 – Brad Gray’s unexpected call away from a thriving church 03:45 – Moving to Nashville without a plan 07:00 – Brad Nelson’s painful exit from church planting 09:35 – How ministries unravel marriages and identities 12:30 – Discernment, tension, and the pivot point 14:30 – When pain forces change 20:00 – The Lord’s Prayer as a blueprint for life 25:43 – Kingdom, calling, and partnering with God 29:09 – The making of the film and book 33:06 – How churches can use the new resources 38:30 – What they would say to their former selves 42:49 – Is there life after ministry? 43:40 – Final thoughts and blessing

Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do.

If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone.

Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name.

And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next.

There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step.

Key Takeaways

• Honest work audits can reveal misaligned roles without shaming your calling.
• A two-year discernment window can hold fear, finances, and family well.
• Build a simple runway: clear income target and small savings cushion.
• Generosity in transition can reframe pain and deepen humility.
• You can keep a pastoral identity while changing employers.
• Finishing well rests on margin, influence, and intentional living.
• Purpose is discovered over time. Let the desert do its work.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Welcome and background 02:20 When the job isn’t the joy anymore 04:55 Two-year wrestle and first paid coaching moment 08:24 Elders, early exit, unexpected generosity 10:14 Building a practical runway and budget targets 12:16 Why “Lead Self, Lead Others” 16:02 Defining finishing well in the fourth quarter 18:18 Retiring the fee, keeping the call at 68 20:07 Purpose unfolds slowly, not suddenly 24:42 Margin, influence, and hyper-intentional life 27:30 Why pastors make great coaches 30:01 CEOs and pastors face the same pressures 31:38 Wisdom to a next-gen pastor son 34:03 Where to find Nathan’s work

Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity.

To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.

When the role that once fit like a second skin begins to suffocate, what do you do? For Duncan Robinson, it meant stepping away. No scandal. No collapse. Just honesty and courage to say, “I need to sit down and be fed.”

That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity. 

Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors.

If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next.

Key Takeaways 

• Identity is received in Christ, not earned by a role
• Failure roars like a lion but shrinks when faced
• Grace isn’t tidy - it meets you in real time
• Bi-vocational ministry mirrors the lives of congregants
• Pastoral skills translate beyond the pulpit
• Churches can pilot one day of outside work for healthier staff
• The wilderness is where God grows clarity and love

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 Welcome and setup
• 05:15 From Phoenix growth to Australian valley
• 08:30 Radio hosting and a father’s death
• 10:56 Untangling identity from role
• 15:45 A year of silence and being fed
• 21:05 What “pastor” really means
• 24:50 Transferable skills pastors overlook
• 29:20 Why bi-vocational makes sense
• 40:10 Real-time grace at the speed of Jesus
• 45:10 Closing

If you’re a pastor or ministry leader facing transition - or walking with someone who is - you don’t have to do it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com to explore coaching, confidential conversations, and resources designed to help you protect people, preserve purpose, and plan what’s next with wisdom and grace.

To connect with Duncan Robinson, visit DuncanRobinson.net for links to his projects, speaking, and his book Full Phoenix Rising: Real-Time Grace at the Speed of Jesus - a raw and redemptive look at failure, faith, and finding your way back when everything falls apart. You can also find Full Phoenix Rising on Amazon, Target, Walmart, and other major retailers.

If this conversation encouraged you, share the episode with a friend who might need to hear that stepping out of ministry doesn’t mean stepping out of God’s calling - it might just mean walking it out differently.

Ministry employment isn’t just HR. It’s covenant community, stewardship, and public witness. 

In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks.

John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel. 

He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises.

From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central.

Key Takeaways

• Mission and values - not fear - should drive personnel policy and decisions.
• U.S. law generally avoids entangling courts in religious leadership disputes; plan accordingly.
• Written agreements can be precise and pastoral when drafted with mutual dignity in mind.
• Succession planning is discipleship: normalize timelines and transitions early.
• Consider mutual confidentiality/non-disparagement; avoid clauses that suppress lawful reporting.
• Use Christian conciliation for disputes when both parties voluntarily opt in.
• Involve counsel early - clarity at formation prevents costly confusion at separation.

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 — Welcome, the tension of boss and brother
• 02:54 — John’s ministry background and unexpected termination
• 08:55 — Discernment, law school, and a new calling
• 12:51 — “Lawyers aren’t the enemy” and the advisor model
• 16:07 — How religious liberty shapes ministry employment
• 23:43 — Loyalty, performance, and ending well
• 28:49 — Clarity at the start: contracts, bylaws, expectations
• 32:56 — Christian conciliation vs. civil court
• 37:36 — NDAs, confidentiality, and what’s wise now
• 41:43 — Culture signals: how we say goodbye

   

   

   

When ministry transitions go wrong, the fallout isn’t just legal - it’s spiritual. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss and change with clarity, care, and purpose. Start your next chapter at ministrytransitions.com.

And when wise legal counsel is needed, John Melcon brings both legal expertise and a ministry heart. Learn more about his work serving churches and nonprofits at taftlaw.com/people/john-terry-melcon/.

Quiet fatigue rarely announces itself. It hums under the surface until a crisis forces a decision. 

In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready.

We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life. 

You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions.

If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype.

Key Takeaways

• Mental fitness is proactive training; therapy is reactive care for acute needs. Both matter.
• Leaders fight three constants: entropy, the enemy, and evil - training helps us endure them.
• Preventative care beats crisis management; reduce interior noise to increase signal.
• Ministries love the model because it separates staff care from supervisory entanglements.
• Outcomes matter: increased productivity and well-being translate to real ROI.
• Accessibility drives adoption: mobile scheduling, short sessions, and confidentiality.

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 Welcome and setup
• 01:00 Vineet’s backstory: immigrant kid to Marine officer
• 04:00 What is Forte and who they serve
• 05:45 Mental fitness vs mental health - clear differences
• 09:20 Preventative maintenance and the “office vent” analogy
• 11:45 The three E’s: entropy, enemy, evil
• 15:00 Why churches became early adopters
• 19:30 EAPs, engagement, and outcomes that matter
• 22:05 The secret sauce: accessibility and aspiration
• 25:40 From interrogation training to loving people well
• 29:00 Vision: organizations solving big problems, people known and whole
• 31:15 Next steps for leaders and teams
• 33:30 Closing and partnership

When leaders hit quiet fatigue, care starts with community. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss, burnout, and change - helping them rediscover clarity and calling. Visit ministrytransitions.com.

For mental fitness solutions, Forte serves both sides of the mission field. Explore getforte.com/faith for Christian organizations, businesses, and nonprofits, or getforte.com for teams in the broader marketplace looking to build resilience and clarity.

When termination happens behind a closed door, the impact lands in the kitchen, the car line, and the kids’ bedrooms. 

In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes.

Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people. 

They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder.

There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar. 

This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better.

Key Takeaways

• Forced termination becomes traumatic when people lose voice, choice, and community.
• Boards can reduce harm through clear policy, generous severance, and family-wide care.
• Day one priorities: safety, breathing space, housing plan, immediate financial triage.
• Spouses often sense red flags early; their intuition should be invited and honored.
• Community mitigates trauma; isolation cements it. Build a small circle fast.
• Identity untangling takes time for both pastor and spouse; purpose is bigger than a role.
• Support groups for ministry wives provide consistent, safe spaces for real healing.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Cold open and setup 03:22 Introductions; why this conversation matters 05:49 “You’re done here”: the termination moment 09:29 Red flags and the slow drift toward decision 11:29 Rejection before the firing; betrayal and shock 16:32 The body keeps the score: words fail, pain speaks 20:06 Day zero logistics: kids, school, where to go 26:51 Finding footing: packing, jobs, housing 31:24 When the church orbits the pastor and forgets the spouse 35:29 How boards can reduce harm and do this better 40:11 Healing in community: support groups for ministry wives 50:17 Life after ministry: new work, real purpose 53:18 Preparing for a high-risk profession: finances and wisdom 55:24 Resources, next steps, and hope

Connect with Matt and the team at MinistryTransitions.com for guidance through terminations, transitions, or succession planning. Explore Kristen’s support groups and coaching at KristenJoyCoaching.com for pastors’ wives and women navigating ministry fallout.

When a beloved role ends, identity gets loud. 

In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ.

We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire. 

Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling.

If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime.

• Intention without action creates collateral damage in transitions.
• “Driven” can be desperation in disguise; identity must relocate from role to Christ.
• God often speaks through memory, community, and quiet checks in the soul.
• Invite truth-telling friends. Love risks being misunderstood to protect you.
• Over-preparation can be control; trust requires limits on our need to manage outcomes.
• Measure success by faithfulness to Jesus and people, not by platform.
• Healthy endings open a window for deep heart work and future freedom.

• 00:00 Cold open, Canadians and calling
• 03:20 Intention vs impact in church transitions
• 07:30 PK expectations and disillusionment
• 10:20 Building a ministry-minded business
• 12:40 COVID collapse and costly layoffs
• 16:20 Untangling identity from role
• 18:45 A memory from God that exposed motive
• 28:55 “Physio” for the soul and daily trust
• 38:00 Friendship that told the hard truth
• 47:50 Closing one work, starting another
• 52:15 Learning to follow quiet discernment
• 59:30 Wealth redefined: family, faith, and freedom
• 1:04:15 Kingdom over empire, final blessing

If you’re facing a ministry transition - or helping someone through one - visit MinistryTransitions.com to find confidential guidance, resources, and hope for what’s next.

For more from Joshua Gordon and The Lead Pastor, visit here: https://theleadpastor.com/ 

When the New York Times ran with allegations surrounding Willow Creek’s founding pastor, Steve Carter had a choice: keep the machine running or protect the trust of the people in the room. He chose integrity - and walked away from the stage that had defined his career.

In this conversation, Steve names the real costs: the silence inside the institution, the “values higher than the chaos” that guided him, and the morning-after reality that there was no job, no safety net, and no way to control the narrative.

He talks about the anger he absorbed, the outside leaders who showed up, and the therapist’s hard question that kept him from repeating patterns.

But the story doesn’t end in exile. It moves through a real wilderness - grief, breathing, waiting - and into a humbler, healthier life: moving back to the Midwest, choosing place over platform, and becoming the lead pastor at Christ Church. What emerges is a field guide for anyone facing a crisis of integrity in Christian leadership.

• Integrity over institutional preservation: Trust is sacred; don’t trade it for optics.
• Name “values higher than the chaos”: Decide in advance what you won’t violate when pressure comes.
• Healing is not transferable: There’s first-hand wounding and first-hand healing; your family needs its own path.
• Interrogate attraction to unhealthy systems: Ask why certain leaders and cultures feel “safe.”
• Grief takes the time it takes: Practice a Holy Saturday rhythm - don’t rush from Friday to Sunday.
• Choose place over platform: Calling is often geographic and relational, not positional.
• Lead from scars, not spin: Wounds can become witness when truth is told and humility is practiced.

• 00:00 — Cold open: Why transitions are never just “staff changes”
• 04:53 — “These are my people”: the early joy at Willow
• 06:47 — Crisis emerges; what repentance would have required
• 09:14 — The headlines drop; “I won’t play with people’s trust”
• 11:52 — Who can you trust when the room is spinning?
• 17:22 — Six options, and why pastoring again wasn’t one of them
• 19:26 — Therapist’s jolt: “Why are you drawn to narcissists?”
• 22:16 — Outside support vs. inside backlash; the binder of messages
• 25:34 — Reframing the anger; learning what people were really saying
• 27:59 — Starbucks incident; a son’s question about “reward”
• 33:25 — Grieve, Breathe, Receive: the Holy Weekend framework
• 36:53 — Wilderness theology: disorientation to reorientation
• 39:36 — Reentry: discerning a safe, healthy church
• 41:33 — “Steve of Chicagoland”: called to a place, not a position
• 43:50 — Inner Hybels and inner Ortberg: action and formation
• 47:20 — Staying in touch; practicing faithfulness, not fame

If you’re walking through a ministry transition or facing hard decisions about leadership, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to explore resources, donate to support a leader in the thick of change, or book a confidential call.

You can also learn more about Steve Carter’s ministry and resources through Christ Church of Oak Brook and by picking up his book Grieve, Breathe, Receive at stevecarter.org/book.

Many pastors find themselves at the end of their ministry career unable to retire - not because they lack calling, but because they lack financial security. Churches often avoid the money conversation, leaving leaders stuck in the pulpit longer than they should be.

In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible.

This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next.

Key Takeaways

• Why many pastors cannot financially afford to retire
• The board’s role in annual compensation and planning reviews
• How rabbi trusts and deferred compensation plans protect leaders and churches
• The danger of assuming “God will provide” without planning
• Why courageous conversations about money and succession matter
• How retrospective compensation studies address past underpayment
• Why planning early ensures dignity, security, and peace in transitions

Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions 01:20 – The hidden financial crisis in pastoral transitions 03:45 – Who holds responsibility: pastor or board? 06:15 – When pastors retire into poverty 08:00 – Unique financial tools for churches (rabbi trusts, 403b9s) 10:13 – Stewardship and courageous conversations 13:27 – Strongholds around money in ministry 16:40 – Poverty mindset vs. extravagant misconceptions 20:06 – Retrospective compensation studies explained 22:53 – Gabe’s background and calling into this work 25:06 – How Stewarded serves churches and nonprofits 27:00 – Why Ministry Transitions + Stewarded work hand-in-hand 32:29 – Preview of joint webinar

Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong.

If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.

Behind every thriving ministry is a foundation you can’t always see - standards, accountability, and trust. Without them, the most passionate vision can unravel overnight.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, ECFA’s Jake Lapp explains why accountability matters not just for auditors and boards but for pastors, leaders, and anyone entrusted with Kingdom resources. 

He shares how ECFA’s standards were designed to serve ministries, not stifle them, and how transparency is one of the clearest ways leaders reflect Christ’s call to integrity.

If you’ve ever wondered whether accountability hinders or helps ministry, Jake’s perspective reframes the conversation. This episode offers a framework for leaders who want to guard the mission, protect their people, and leave behind a legacy of trust.

• Accountability is not bureaucracy - it’s discipleship.
• Transparency builds trust faster than vision statements.
• Financial integrity protects both leaders and the people they serve.
• ECFA standards are guardrails, not red tape.
• Trust is earned in drops but lost in buckets.
• Healthy structures create freedom, not restriction.
• Integrity in hidden details sustains visible ministry.

• 00:00 – Introduction to ECFA and Jake Lapp
• 02:05 – Why Accountability Matters in Ministry
• 05:20 – The Role of ECFA Standards
• 09:45 – How Transparency Builds Trust
• 13:10 – Common Pitfalls Leaders Face
• 17:25 – Trust, Integrity, and Long-Term Sustainability
• 21:40 – Encouragement for Leaders in Transition

Strengthen the foundation you cannot see. Visit ECFA.org to review the Seven Standards, explore practical tools, and begin a clear pathway toward accreditation. Build transparency that protects people, guards the mission, and reflects Christ’s call to integrity.

If a transition is on the horizon, do not carry it alone. Go to MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call and build an integrity-first plan that safeguards your people and purpose. If you’re able, give to make this support possible for another leader.

What happens when the very act of caring for others leaves you depleted? 

Laura Howe, founder of Hope Made Strong, knows firsthand the toll of compassion fatigue. From her own season of burnout came a global movement equipping churches to address mental health with wisdom and grace.

In this conversation, Laura shares her personal journey from exhaustion to renewed purpose. She reminds us that burnout is not a moral failure, but a workplace hazard for anyone serving in caregiving roles. 

With honesty and clarity, she explains what resilience truly looks like, how to know when you’ve moved from “yellow” into “red,” and why churches must begin addressing mental health as part of whole-life discipleship.

For leaders in transition, this episode offers a lifeline. You’ll hear not only practical wisdom but also the hope that God redeems what feels wasted. 

Whether you’re a pastor, a board member, or someone carrying unseen weight, Laura’s insights offer courage to pause, refuel, and continue faithfully.

• Burnout and compassion fatigue are hazards of caregiving, not signs of weakness or sin.
• Resilience is less about powering through and more about bouncing back.
• Ministry leaders must learn to recognize their “zone” on the green-yellow-orange-red scale.
• Sustainable care in churches means creating belonging, purpose, and hope - not acting as clinics.
• The Church has a unique capacity to support mental health across every stage of life.
• Global interest in integrating faith and mental health is rising rapidly.
• Hope Made Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit provide free, practical resources.

• 00:00 – Introduction to Laura Howe and Hope Made Strong
• 01:10 – Laura’s Burnout Story and Birth of Hope Made Strong
• 03:13 – Understanding Compassion Fatigue and Resilience
• 06:12 – How Do You Know It’s Time for a Change?
• 09:17 – From Red Zone to Hope Made Strong
• 12:15 – Sustainability and the Church’s Responsibility
• 16:04 – Why the Church Must Embrace Mental Health
• 19:50 – Launching the Church Mental Health Summit
• 23:25 – Personal Reflection and Final Encouragement

If this episode stirred something in you, take a next step: visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession - or give to help another leader get timely support. Then head to HopeMadeStrong.org to equip your team for sustainable care by registering for the Church Mental Health Summit and accessing practical tools for your church.

What if the missing piece in your leadership is not more strategy but more empathy? 

Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it. 

They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life.

Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship. 

The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return.

If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke.

• Empathy is not sentimentality. It is the way love becomes believable and actionable. “We love because He first loved us.”
• Many leaders grew up in empathy deserts. Naming this breaks shame and opens us to care.
• Jesus models secure attachment with the Father. Presence before performance. Prayer before platform.
• The Four A’s of Empathy help in any conversation. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge significance. Affirm strengths.
• Receiving empathy enlarges capacity for compassion at home and work.
• Empathy transforms hard transitions. It dignifies layoffs, fuels grief work, and softens the ground for forgiveness.
• Leaders need safe people and slow practices that rebuild attachment to God and others.

• 00:00 Welcome and name pronunciation fun
• 01:38 What is Soul Shepherding and the easy yoke of Jesus
• 04:10 Release day for Deeply Loved and why empathy matters
• 04:43 Empathy deserts and early stories that shape leaders
• 07:45 Why Christian leaders struggle to receive love
• 11:06 Empathy is oxygen for the soul
• 14:48 “Is empathy soft?” Gender, strength, and honesty
• 20:38 Attachment, secure bonds, and practical tools
• 26:30 Theology plus psychology in Deeply Loved
• 27:03 The Four A’s of Empathy explained
• 38:22 Empathy in layoffs, burnout, and hard meetings
• 43:53 Where to find the book and Soul Shepherding retreats
• 45:08 Close and gratitude

Explore More Resources:

Dive deeper into the themes of this episode by visiting soulshepherding.org/deeplylovedbook for Bill and Kristi Gaultier’s Deeply Loved, and find confidential guidance and support for ministry transitions at ministrytransitions.com.

Sixty episodes. More than 70,000 downloads. And countless stories of leaders who’ve walked through suffering, loss, and transition - and discovered God’s faithfulness in the middle of it all.

In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four. 

From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry.

More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry.

• Every testimony is more than a story - it’s a prayer for God to do it again.
• Suffering, when surrendered, can become transformational.
• Presence matters more than polish in crisis leadership.
• Succession is both organizational and personal - it requires planning on both levels.
• The Church’s culture is an operating system, not an event.
• Leaders in transition need more than strategy - they need support.
• You can be part of multiplying hope for leaders facing transition.

• 00:00 – Introduction: Season 4 Wrap-Up
• 01:00 – Why Testimonies Are Prayers for God to Do It Again
• 03:15 – Lessons from Guests: Suffering, Succession, Wilderness, and Culture
• 09:00 – Succession as Both Organizational and Personal
• 12:00 – Supporting Leaders in Transition: An Appeal
• 15:00 – Thank You and Looking Ahead to Season 5

Ministry Transitions stands in the gap for pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been let go, burned out, or are simply facing their next step - and they need your help.

Visit ministrytransitions.com to:

• Access resources
• Sponsor a leader in crisis
• Or schedule a conversation to take stock of your next step

You’re not giving to a program - you’re giving to a person with a calling. Let’s walk with leaders through their lowest valleys and help them find hope again.

What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting? 

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown.

Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck. 

Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership.

For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step.

• Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring.
• The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing.
• Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling.
• How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity.
• Why starting scared is better than never starting at all.
• The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas.
• How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith.

• 00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate
• 01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact
• 05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry
• 08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020
• 15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures
• 21:00 – The Ready Framework explained
• 26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer
• 29:30 – Becoming ready by doing

• Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com
• Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com

Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay. 

For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings.

In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving. 

From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts.

Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions. 

Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next.

Key Takeaways

• The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition.
• Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary.
• Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry.
• Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments.
• Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows.
• Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions.
• Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go.

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation
• 02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim
• 03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions
• 06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision
• 13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions
• 15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID
• 18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today
• 24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends
• 26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare
• 28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go
• 32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart

If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.

What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart.

In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health.

From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it.

And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next.

• Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures.

• How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus.

• The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience.

• Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff.

• Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction.

• The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity.

• How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy.

00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony 01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards 02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction 05:24 – The onboarding process done right 07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters 09:48 – The three duties of every board member 14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation 18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully 20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake 24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO 31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy 32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack 34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well 38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership 43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected 46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards 49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions 57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony

If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email manthony@dts.edu or michael@calibrateglobalconsulting.com.

What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling? 

In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling? 

Helping leaders find where God wants them next.

This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey. 

Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart. 

Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday.

If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step.

• From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact.
• The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building.
• Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference.
• Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace.
• Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship.
• Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future.
• Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well.

00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer 01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry 02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose 03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry 05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires 07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship 07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong 09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title 10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions 12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps 14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession 15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose 17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change 19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output 21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron 24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for 26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee 28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact

If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well.

Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.

What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything. 

In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church.

They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust. 

Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has. 

You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred.

It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church.

• The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts.
• Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment.
• The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition.
• Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin.
• Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books.
• Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide.

• 00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry
• 02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP
• 04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In
• 06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity
• 08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions
• 12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm)
• 15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything)
• 18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now?
• 22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes
• 26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar
• 28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter
• 32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God

If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.

What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity? 

In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown. 

From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace.

But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be.

If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are.

• Why identity is one of the hardest things to untangle when leaving ministry
• How Josh navigated an unexpected layoff - and why it turned into one of the best days of his life
• What it looks like to still live out ministry in a secular workplace
• How to listen well, talk honestly with your spouse, and step into an unknown future with trust
• The surprising truth about being a present dad (and why the phone isn’t the only distraction)

00:00 – Josh's journey into ministry and long tenure as executive pastor 04:30 – Lessons from staffing, transitions, and team dynamics 07:25 – When boredom, burnout, and frustration signal it’s time to go 12:00 – Why Josh and his wife stepped away from their home church after resigning 17:00 – A safe landing at a university… and an unexpected layoff 19:30 – The power of a spouse’s words during a pivotal moment 22:50 – From pastor to car wash CMO: how to make sense of an unexpected calling 28:00 – How Josh stays present as a father and what he wants his son to remember 31:00 – Advice for leaders who feel called to step out but don’t know where to start

If you’re wrestling with what’s next after ministry, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to find practical support and a team who’s walked this road too.

And be sure to follow Josh Taylor on Instagram at @joshtaylor.guide for thoughtful reflections on leadership, fatherhood, and life after ministry.