Discover the 5 key brand religions, their core beliefs, and how they can apply to your brand.

Important links

* Download the white paper to take a deep dive into the 5 brand religions

* Kristof on LinkedIn

* The episode with Jan Verlinden (Ritchie)

Creative business company

One of the biggest challenges in my own career has been trying to convince business leaders that their ‘brand’ is one of the most important assets of their company.

That’s why this episode is sponsored by Creative Business Company, a strategic consultancy on a mission to make brand more accountable and effective.

They take the lessons they’ve learned from over a decade of experience working with big brands like Morningstar, Formula E, and Shell, and adapt them to work with smaller, fast-growing companies to help them get more attention, convert leads, and drive sales.

So if you’re trying to get the budget for ‘brand’, create messaging that converts, or lower your cost of acquisition, check out Creative Business Company for ideas, evidence and tools that will help you make an impact fast. 

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Discover the captivating marketing story of Ritchie, a Belgian lemonade brand built from strong marketing principles by entrepreneur/marketer Jan Verlinden (ex Pepsi-co). Learn how Jan leverages his experience at big brands to grow Ritchie through unexpected marketing channels and tactics to expand his market share gradually.

Show notes

* Jan on LinkedIn

* Check out Ritchie, the amazing brand Jan is building

* The book about the Ritchie story (online in Dutch)

Creative business company

One of the biggest challenges in my own career has been trying to convince business leaders that their ‘brand’ is one of the most important assets of their company.

That’s why this episode is sponsored by Creative Business Company, a strategic consultancy on a mission to make brand more accountable and effective.

They take the lessons they’ve learned from over a decade of experience working with big brands like Morningstar, Formula E, and Shell, and adapt them to work with smaller, fast-growing companies to help them get more attention, convert leads and drive sales.

So if you’re trying to get the budget for ‘brand’, create messaging that converts, or lower your cost of acquisition, check out Creative Business Company for ideas, evidence and tools that will help you make an impact fast. 

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Show notes

* Bart on LinkedIn

* Bart’s new venture: I know a guy

Key Takeaways

* Understanding client problems and formulating them better than the clients themselves is crucial in agency-client relationships.

* The balance between digital and branding is essential in marketing strategies, with a shift towards investing in branding for long-term effectiveness.

* New platforms like TikTok and AR are on the rise and should be explored for marketing opportunities.

* Investing in the fundamentals of marketing while experimenting with new platforms is a key approach to future-proofing marketing strategies.

Learn more about brand strategy

Activate your strategic brain and level up your creative business. Find courses on brand strategy, brand workshops, and brand strategy presentations. You can use LTBPODCAST to get a 20% discount.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Tom's agency: GSD&M
• The Chicken wars
• Emotional support chicken
• Experiential advertising
• How to inspire fun ideas
• Brands should entertain
• First & only advertising
• How to keep your client on board

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really appreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter here . This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs. If you want to subscribe, you can use the code LTB and get a 20% discount.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Topics discussed:

• Last weeks episode with JP Hanson
• Positioning as an internal alignment tool
• The hierarchy levels of strategy in the Rouser manifesto
• Marketing effectiveness
• Our agency: Ollie
• The different levels of impact of brand strategy
• The difference between business and brand strategy
• How you should not alter the business based on brand strategy
• How we tend to look at companies success from a narrow perspective
• How smaller companies have less layers of strategy
• How a lot of 'meaning' and purpose in companies can be a placebo effect

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really appreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter here . This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs. If you want to subscribe, you can use the code LTB and get a 20% discount.

 

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

JP Hanson is the chief executive for international consultancy Rouser, a globally recognized authority on business and marketing strategy, columnist for MarketingWeek and a popular headline speaker. He has delivered keynotes at events all over the world, from Reykjavik to Mumbai and London to Dubai, always with an entertainingly no-nonsense approach. Both a marketer and a lawyer, he is known for his firm belief in critical thinking, observable evidence and complete freedom from hype.

We talk about:

• The Rouser manifesto
• Positioning vs Distinctiveness
• Long term vs Short term brand building
• The definition of branding
• Tactics vs Strategy
• How to understand business strategy
• The hierarchy of business, marketing and brand strategy
• The Dove 'real beauty'  campaign
• Brand purpose as management tool
• The four 'P's by Kotler
• Positioning as a 'timesaver' instead of a marketing tool

There is a bunch of booktips throughout the episode:

• How brands grow by Byron Sharp
• Building Distinctive assets by Jenni Romaniuk
• Eat your greens by Wiemer Snijders 
• Good strategy, bad strategy by Richard Rumelt
• The Halo effect  by Phil Rosenzweig
• The long and short of it by Peter Field and Les Binet

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really appreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter below. This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Michael Brenner is a globally-recognized keynote speaker, author of The Content Formula and the CEO of Marketing Insider Group. He has worked in leadership positions in sales and marketing for global brands like SAP and Nielsen, as well as for thriving startups. Today, Michael shares his passion on leadership and marketing strategies that deliver customer value and business impact. He is recognized by the Huffington Post as a Top Business Keynote Speaker and a top CMO influencer by Forbes.

We talk about:

• What is marketing? 
• Michael's latest book: Mean people suck
• Michaels company: https://marketinginsidergroup.com/
• A tool for content research: BuzzSumo
• A tool for content research: Answer the public
• How today's content is all about enabling users the generate content (e.g TikTok)
• Consistency in content 

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really apreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter here. This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs.

 

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Topics discussed: 

• Competitor analysis
• Three main things to look at when listing competitors: Business, Positioning and Distinctiveness. 
• Mapping your competitors: article on Holabrief
• Interbrand Best Global brand report
• Byron Sharp's how brands grow
• Building distinctive assets

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really apreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter here. This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• The shift from Gin Lane to Pattern Brands
• How Hims, a great identity project by Gin Lane, created a certain 'style'
• Purposeful brands and some of the nonsense around 'why'. 
• A funny comic showing the problem with going to high up the brand ladder
• The four pillars for building your own company: Process, business, consumer, brand.

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really apreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter here. This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs.

 

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Here's what we talked about:

• The concept bureau
• How writing about brand strategy can help you attract the right clients
• Jasmine talks about 'Hims'
• Four Sigmatic, another brand we discussed
• It's not about being better, it's about being different (read the article)
• The emergent story arc framework
• Looking at history to decide on the future of a brand
• A brand is an opinion

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really apreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter below. This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this solo episode, I talk about brand performance. Why is it important to measure the brand performance, what do we need to measure and how? I talk about some specific tools and techniques we can use. We also look at the key performance indicators for a brand (KPI's). It's a fun ride so I hope you enjoy! 

Here are some important conversation points:

• Measuring the impact you have on an organisation is  important
• Measuring brand awareness before and after the project to benchmark
• It's our job to asses the current brand equity when doing a rebrand
• Measuring the effectiveness of distinctive assets (read the book pls)
• An example of distinctive assets (Johny Walker) 
• A great tool to track your brand performance: Latana
• Use typeform to create your own surveys
• How brand performance relates to sales

Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, I would really apreciate a rating on Itunes. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the weekly episodes at your doorstep. If you want the deeper, juicier insights you can also subscribe to the newsletter on letstalkbranding.be. This episode is sponsored by Holabrief, The go-to platform 
for creative briefs and Latana, the first brand tracking tool to use advanced data science to ensure reliable and accurate brand insights.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode, I talk with Grant Owens, Chief Strategy Officer at Critical Mass, a digital experience design agency. We talk about the future of branding, beyond brand purpose, beyond labels, even beyond brands themselves.

We talk about:

• Brand purpose


• Customer insights


• Digital experiences


• Brand strategy


• The future of branding


• How marketeers think to much in labels

I would really apreciate a rating or review on Itunes. If you wish to get more insights on brand strategy, feel free to subscribe to my weekly newsletter on letstalkbranding.be

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode, I talk with a former client and entrepreneur Peter Van Praet. Peter founded 'Bavet', a successful fast-casual chain in Belgium (10 restaurants and counting). We talk about the importance of branding, how to build a brand and how creative agencies could win more clients.

• The importance of people: how to attract employer and keep them excited


• Inhouse VS outhouse creative


• How agencies can become better at serving their clients


• The importance of branding and marketing


• How to keep branding fresh


• How a brand evolves

As always, I would really apreciate a rating on Itunes.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Show notes

* Discover the full trends report here

* Rachael Higgins on LinkedIn

* Will Posket on LinkedIn

Summary

* 🚀 Back to the Pod: Host Stef kicks off the year chatting with Will Posket & Rachael Higgins about 2024's hot branding and marketing trends. Time to dive in and learn!

* 🤖 AI & Truth-Seeking: Will and Rachael talk about AI's rise and its impact on branding. Brands need to be authentic and truthful in an "era of cheap fakes." Think Dove's 'Cost of Beauty' campaign – realness is key!

* 🤪 Embrace the Absurd: Get creative and stand out! Brands should dare to be different, like Liquid Death's wacky marketing. It's all about being bold and breaking the mold.

* 😂 Playfulness is Power: In a serious world, brands that bring joy stand out. Like Specsavers with their funny ads – it's about making people smile and escape the gloom.

* 💡 Future Gazing: Will and Rachael predict more personal brand growth, physical experiences blending with digital, and businesses exploring unique, authentic marketing paths.

Learn more about brand strategy

Activate your strategic brain and level up your creative business. Find courses on brand strategy, brand workshops, and brand strategy presentations. You can use LTBPODCAST to get a 20% discount.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Doing the same thing as other designers, but from very different perspectives.


• Being a bridge between what the company is and something like a creative team.


• Balance the creative and the business sides.


• What is branding for Koen, and what is marketing?


• How can you work better with marketing departments?


• What are good options from a client’s perspective?


• Important changes in the industry.


• How can you measure brands in a good way?


• Is your brand identity usable?


• Who are you, what can you do, and what do you want to do?


• What is going to change in the future?


• The value of a good idea: does it build a relationship with the right people?


• Data never tells something. You ask data, and it gives you responses.

Important Quotes:

• “Marketing is about compromises.”


• “It’s not about technology or production values, it’s about relationships.”


• “Understanding your team is very important.”


• “The value is in the brief.”


• “Do we attract the right people easier?”


• “You can’t know it all.”


• “We’re not building the most beautiful brand, we’re building the brand that fits what we can do.”


• “Does it serve the purpose?


• “Sometimes we are misguided because of what we learned.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Loyalty: how important is it as a brand strategist?


• The true way to build loyalty and, more importantly, your income.


• If you want to re-brand, you need to do it for the right reasons.


• Distinctiveness versus uniqueness.


• What is more important than adding meaning to a brand?


• What is your brand’s purpose?


• Is being small okay?

Important Quotes:

• “Loyalty is not the holy grail of branding.”


• “The bigger you are, the more loyal customers you’ll have.”


• “Just adding meaning won’t help.”


• “Branding is really about repetition.”


• “Just having a purpose won’t get you extra sales.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Byron’s book: How Brands Grow


• If it’s not about positioning, then what should you be doing as a strategist?


• How can you build a loyal customer base?


• Small brands VS. big brands.


• How do you push through and become a brand people recognize?


• How do you become distinctive?


• What are the reasons for a re-brand?


• How do you know what distinctive assets you have?

Important Quotes:

• “The real world is a weird place.”


• “Some things are much more important than we thought.”


• “All brands are smaller than they want to be.”


• “If you’re only on one channel, you are going to be smaller.”


• “You know what you can touch and what you can’t.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• How will AI influence jobs, and how can you make sure you’re needed in this changing industry.


• How the generators will improve over time, and how that relates to you as a brand designer.


• The argument of creativity against logo design.


• What kind of tone or vibe do you want to convey with a logo?


• Craftsmanship as it relates to brand design.


• We are losing our jobs more to globalization than AI.

Important Quotes:

• “We tend to overreact when it comes to generators.”


• “It will force us designers to think on a higher level.”


• “It can be bad and still work.”


• “We can’t invest in creativity alone.”


• “Once you get that confidence you can go even further.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Jonathan’s beef with hourly rates.


• Clients don’t want your time, they want your results.


• Time is the wrong thing to focus on. What should you focus on instead?


• Transitioning your business away from the hourly model and to the value pricing model.


• The big transition: switching your mindset in the sales interview.


• You want some urgency from prospects. Why do they want it now?


• You need to ask them: “why me? Why not someone cheaper?”


• Be confident that what you deliver is the best out there, and simply be confident as a business person.


• Come to them as a peer and know you have control in the conversation.


• You need to be prepared to walk away from any client.


• How you can position yourself to make things easier.


• Always ask for testimonials from happy clients."


• What is the leading indicator that you think will lead to sales?


• Learn the difference between the strategy and the deliverables.


• Break down every possible assumption in advance.


• How to deal with cashflow problems.

Important Quotes:

• “It destroys wealth and value creation.”


• “What is their real objective?”


• “My whole life was hours.”


• “They’re expecting to get something back.”


• “That’s just basic hygiene.”


• “Share that out to the world.”


• “They don’t want to know how hard your job is.”


• “This is definitely a million dollar thing for you.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Bio: International Director of the world-famous Ehrenberg-Bass Institute and author of Building Distinctive Brand Assets and How Brands Grow Part 2. 

Jenni is a leading expert in brand equity, mental availability, brand health metrics, advertising effectiveness, distinctive assets, word of mouth and the role of loyalty and growth. Through her work at the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute she has advised many of the world’s biggest brands.

Jenni is an engaging and entertaining keynote speaker that has presented her research at leading industry conferences globally. Her new book Building Distinctive Brand Assets is a book for anyone with a brand, to help future-proof any brand's identity and learn which strategies work, and which don't. How Brands Grow Part 2, co-authored with Professor Byron Sharp, will change the way you think about marketing forever.

We talk about:

• What is a distinctive asset?


• The importance of the brand name in building a distinctive asset.


• Fonts as a distinctive asset.


• The mental structures a new brand has to build.


• Fame and uniqueness as measurements for distinctive assets.


• Is distinctiveness what makes people buy?


• What all you need to do when thinking about brand strategy.


• The key factors of mental availability.


• How to create focus with limited resources?


• When is it time to completely re-brand?

Important Quotes:

• “Make steps to build it.”


• “Not everything has to be a distinctive asset.”


• “Clarify what’s important.”


• “Bigger brands are not more differentiated.”


• “Stand out in the retail environment.”


• “All of it can still be done if you’re a small brand.”


• “Loyalty will always have it’s limits.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• The study of language and how it relates to brand strategy.


• The ways to communicate besides words.


• The evolution of messaging and tone of voice.


• Developing and defining your own personality.


• What a typical brand strategy project looks like.


• What is a good insight?


• The overlap between strategy and creativity.


• Getting clients involved.


• Form a good relationship with your clients, and earn their trust.


• How much should a logo cost?


• What is the most powerful aspect of branding?


• If you are a good designer, then you are a good creative thinker.


• Read as much as you can about strategy and brands.

Important Quotes:

• “Words contain ideas.”


• “Use language very carefully and powerfully.”


• “What do we know, and what do we not know?’


• “What do they think is good value?”


• “Good strategies are able to see patterns and find the important information.”


• “The power of irrational thinking.”


• “It takes time to build relationships and trust.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• The convincing that needs to be done to help your client see the solution.


• The three important moments in a brand strategy process:
  
  
  
  • The first is the brand workshop. It is the essential starting point for each project.
  
  
  • The second is the truth session. Challenge all of the assumptions made in the workshop with your research.
  
  
  • The third is the brand strategy presentation.
  
  
  
  


• Involve the clients in the process.


• First, explore the problems and research, and then begin defining the values and purpose of the company.


• You need to back up your thoughts and opinions with actual data.


• Making it tangible will make it realistic.


• Showing examples will take away fears and add reality.


• Use data to support your opinion.


• You’re not on the sidelines, and neither are they.


• Is it ever possible to be 100% sure?

Important Quotes:

• “Make sure everyone is excited about the solution you’re presenting.”


• “Support it with research.”


• “Define the direction of the brand together.”


• “Incorporate your client’s’ vision.”


• “Think about the narrative.”


• “Make it tangible.”


• “You’re not standing on the sidelines.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Bio: Calle Stenqvist is the co-founder of Plan8- a design agency for music and sound. What they do is they look for different ways to make a product, experience, or brand more engaging and ultimately more human through the use of sound and music.

We talk about:

• 
  

  The combination of the music and design worlds.

  
  


• 
  

  What clients are looking for from Plan8.

  
  


• 
  

  What has changed since the start of Plan8.

  
  


• 
  

  People don’t just watch brand stuff on the web anymore; there has been a new shift in digital media.

  
  


• 
  

  Different processes depending on the size of the studio: do you really need a big studio?

  
  


• 
  

  Find answers to the questions why, how, when, and where to have sound.

  
  


• 
  

  Try to define the brand’s position through musical archetypes.

  
  


• 
  

  Where to start to find the right audio.

  
  


• 
  

  How to involve the client in the process with audio and music, and how to filter out bad feedback.

  
  


• 
  

  Hear examples of great audio branding.

  
  


• 
  

  The ways to connect sounds to memories.

  
  


• 
  

  How to find the right voice.

  
  


• 
  

  How authentic are voice assistants going to get?
  
  Important Quotes:

  
  


• 
  

  “Not a lot of people actually use the web that way.”

  
  


• 
  

  '“Social media killed the rich media web.”

  
  


• 
  

  “Broadcast is not at all dead.”

  
  


• 
  

  “You couldn’t just record stuff in your bedroom.”

  
  


• 
  

  “There’s a constant development of that technology that makes it easier and easier.”

  
  


• 
  

  “The quality of the work is independent of the size of studio you have.”

  
  


• 
  

  “It’s what you put into it that matters.”

  
  


• 
  

  “It’s important to establish a language together.”

  
  


• 
  

  “It’s a sound you hear every day, why not make something great out of it?”

  
  


• 
  

  “Everything that can be digitized will be.”

  
  

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Doing “story sessions” in order to learn more about the client, his story, and why he started his business.
  
  
  
  • That was really brand strategy in the workshop, so it became the brand workshop.
  
  
  • After implementing the brand workshop, clients trusted us more.
  
  
  
  


• Doing your brand workshop physically. You need to see them and talk to them and feel the interactions.
  
  
  
  • Being physically there is an important part of the workshop.
  
  
  
  


• If you’ve never done a workshop, do it for a friend or small client to make sure you’re comfortable.


• The people in the workshop need to be the top stake holders and decision makers of the company.


• Limit the workshop to around five people.


• First, make sure everyone is comfortable and heard.


• The whole brand workshop is from the customer’s perspective.


• It’s about short sentences and keywords.


• The brand workshop builds trust with clients.


• There are six questions you can ask:
  
  
  
  • What are we doing, and how are we doing it?
  
  
  • What do we value the most?
  
  
  • What makes us different?
  
  
  • Who are we here for?
  
  
  • What is your personality like?
  
  
  • Why are we here?
  
  
  
  


• You can wrap up the workshop with a positioning statement.

Important Quotes:

• “The coalition of the willing.”


• “You need more voices.”


• “You will get some push-back.”


• “There are no dumb answers.”


• “The brand workshop is getting a sense of direction.”


• “Today is the day we really get excited about a new direction.”


• “Get a conversation going.”


• “There are lots of ways to frame values.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Summary

* 🤖 AI in Mascot Creation: Making it easier and more accessible, especially for smaller brands.

* 💡 Before AI: Creating a mascot was a big deal – think illustrators, 3D artists, studios. Now, AI tools like Midjourney and Dali are game-changers.

* 🎨 AI's Impact: Brands can now craft imaginative characters consistently and bring them to life in various contexts.

* 🚀 Haris’s Story: How he crafted the purple, chef-hat-wearing monster, Calvin Cooks, and made his content more memorable.

* 🛠️ DIY Mascot Magic: Using Bing AI Image Generator for consistency across marketing touchpoints.

* 🌟 The Power of a Mascot: Standing out in B2B marketing, attracting attention, and enhancing brand recall.

* 🔮 The Future: The growing role of AI in branding and marketing, plus tips for those interested in creating their own mascots.

🚨 Important note on legal protection: In the podcast, I stated that it’s not possible to trademark assets generated by AI, I was notified that this is not the case, you CAN 100% trademark an AI-generated mascot as long as it’s not descriptive of the goods and services. My confusion was mainly around ‘copyright’, where this is indeed the case (the need for human input). I will follow up in more detail in an upcoming podcast episode.

Subscribe to the YouTube channel here to get notified when the tutorial is live.

Important links

* Discover Haris Spahic (and Calvin Cooks) on LinkedIn

Learn more about brand strategy

Activate your strategic brain and level up your creative business. Find courses on brand strategy, brand workshops, and brand strategy presentations. You can use LTBPODCAST to get a 20% discount.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Bio: Wouter Sel started out as an animation director, until his ambition took over and Volstok was founded with Thijs De Cloedt. Pretty soon the studio was producing intriguing animated content for TV and advertising. Today, Volstok is translating bold ideas into creative animations, producing memorable impact frame by frame.

We talk about:

• How Wouter’s studio grew from nothing to a success.


• His biggest struggles with expanding.


• A typical project for Volstok.


• Instagram story animations.


• How animation and video relates to branding.


• Translating the identity into animations- the steps to take.


• Should you go for a mascot?


• Mascots are not there only to be recognizable: they bring stories and value to people.


• How the field of branding is evolving.


• The benefits of saying no more often.


• Animated logos: how will they evolve?


• What the future holds for Wouter Sel and Volstok.


• Check out an example of the mascot animation here.

Important Quotes:

• “That’s our goal. To create awesome s**t.”


• “We get to really listen to our clients.”


• “Video is everywhere.”


• “Brands are really pushing boundaries.”


• “There are no restrictions anymore.”


• “What would happen if you could step into a drawing?”


• “We’re not innovators. We’re storytellers.”


• “We know where our expertise lies."


• ‘Go for what makes you and your client happy.”


• “What do you want people to see when they think of your brand?”


• “Value and premium doesn’t need to be expensive.”


• “Take a leap and do something exciting.”


• “There’s no better time than now.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Ideal client persona and market positioning as a designer.


• Should you do something you don’t believe in just for more business?


• Find where you strengths connect to what your clients want.


• Customer research.


• What kind of questions are you asking your clients?


• You need to dig deeper with your questions.


• See the deeper truth behind their answers.


• Do you need to adapt your services completely to what a customer wants?


• Asking questions might not get the answers you’re looking for.


• Don’t base your services on customer research. Know what your vision is, and then use your customer research to find out how your vision could help them.

Important Quotes:

• “Find your niche and work on that through branding.”


• “It’s not always easy when you listen to your customers.”


• “Talking to your customers is the first step in building a brand that can really connect.”


• “What we’re saying isn’t always what we’re thinking or feeling.”


• “You can’t innovate by just asking what they want.”


• “Don’t start with customer research.”


• “It’s not just about checking all the boxes.”


• “It’s not only about listening, it’s about observing.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

SHOW NOTES

In this episode I talk with Mackey Saturday, he created some iconic visual identities such as Instagram, Oculus and Luxe. We talk about how he creates visual identities with his studio, what he learned from working with design legends Chermayeff & Geismar & Haviv and much more.

Bio:Mackey Saturday (born 1985) is an American designer and typographer whose work includes logos for Instagram, Oculus and Luxe. He runs his own design firm and was formerly a principal at New York City design firm Chermayeff & Geismar & Haviv.

We talk about:

• Mackey’s love of design


• How he stays creative even in the middle of a long work day


• What made Mackey decide to take the leap and start his own studio


• How Mackey became the expert in what he does


• Makcey’s process and workflow


• The changes that clients want, and why those changes might not be for the better


• Being cautious around changes clients want


• The important things to keep in mind first and foremost


• How Mackey makes sure that each project is unique and functional


• Dealing with the risks


• Deciding on what to keep and what to evolve


• The right questions you should be asking


• How many options you should give clients


• Preparing the client for your work


• How much does a logo cost?


• The differences in working for large and small brands


• What is changing in the world of branding, both for the good and the bad


• Holding yourself accountable for the work you do

Important Quotes:

• “You don’t have to be a starving artist.”


• “I took a risk, and it’s worked so far.”


• “There are core parts of the process that rings true all the time.”


• “Pride i"s a huge piece of identity design.”


• “Don’t just give them what they want, give them what they need.”


• “It needs to be good. Period.”


• “Do no harm.”


• “Show them good work.”


• “There are only certain parts of the situation you can control.”


• “Don’t let your pride get in the way.”

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode I talk with Fredrik Öst, founder of Snask, one of my favorite branding agencies. We talk about creating brands that make enemies and gain fans.

Bio:

"Freddie" was adopted to Sweden after being found outside a police station where he lived for 6 months. In the army they found out his heart is twisted backwards and an EKG will read it as if he’s dead. His love for design began with a job he took on creating posters and cover art for a local record label. After being told that they needed 10 years of experience him and his co-founders started up Snask with zero years of experience. The Snask team still see the “old conservative world” as their biggest enemy.

We talk about:

• The story behind Snask


• Building bold brands


• How they create a brand strategy for brands


• How Snask creates a culture of trust and creativity


• How to go beyond the 'BS' in client meetings


• The Shower beer project

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode I answer some of the questions I receive weekly. I talk about the value of design, how to facilitate and build authority with your design clients.

Thank you Jeffrey, Ruben and Juliane for the great questions!

• What is the value of design without strategy?


• How can you facilitate a workshop with your clients.


• How can you do a workshop with a company of one.


• How to translate attributes to design.


• How you can use moodboarding to define a common language with your client


• How can you build authoritiy in a client relationship?

Thanks a lot for the great questions. If you want your questions answered in the next Q&A episode, just visit speakpipe.com/letstalbranding

I would appreciate it if you could rate the podcast on Itunes, it will help in spreading the word about the podcast. Or you can subscribe to the newsletter on letstalkbranding.be to get weekly insights.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode I talk with one of my branding heroes, Michael Johnson, founder of Johnson Banks, author of Branding in five and a half steps and thought leader on brand strategy and design. We take a deep dive into brand strategy, design and how to bridge that gap.

Michael's latest book: Now try something weirder is coming out by the end of may but you can get a chance to win an exclusive hand-signed copy before it releases. Join the give-away here.

We talk about:

• Michael's agency: Johnson Banks


• The Shelter rebrand


• Michael's book: Branding in 5 and a half steps


• How to move beyond jargon and talk about strategy


• The difference between being a strategist and being a designer


• How to inspire creative directions


• How design can affect the strategy


• Michael's new book: Now try something weirder. You can pre-order it here or join the give-away here to get a chance at winning an early copy.


• Where do idea's come from?


• A german stage and a series of penis pictures by Erik Kessels


• Michael's talk at typo Berlin


• Why you need to try something weirder


• How you can present design options


• Why you need to learn how to write


• Tone of voice and messaging

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

I talk about:

• Business language and how it is used to 'fake' expertise


• Learning the fundamentals of brand strategy before you can break the rules


• How I started using my designer skills in the strategy phase


• How we are different from business strategists

If you have any questions about strategy, branding or design, feel free to answer your question here. I will try to answer all your questions in the monthly Q&A episode. Looking forward to hearing your voices!

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

If you would like to get a chance at winning the book, join the give-away on letstalkbranding.be/douglas

In this episode, we talk about:

• Douglas his story, working at multiple advertising agencies


• The end of the DOT.com bubble


• Douglas plays the role as my therapist, where we talk about my dilemma being a designer that becomes more and more of a strategist


• Features, benefits, insights


• The article Douglas mentions: https://www.adweek.com/agencies/design-experts-weigh-in-on-ddbs-and-joans-new-visual-identities/


• What makes a good brief


• Overcoming the fear and doing the work

As always, if you would like to stay up to date, subscribe to the podcast and give me a rating.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

If you are interested in learning more about the business of expertise, I'm giving away a free copy of the book, signed by David. You can visit letstalkbranding.be/david

We talk about:

• Positioning your creative business


• The 2bobs podcast


• Pricing


• Entrepreneurship


• Strategy vs execution


• Taking risks


• David's book: the business of expertise (affiliate link)

David also recommended 4 sources on positioning:

• Blair Enns: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/about/


• David C. Baker website


• Philip Morgan


• Tim Williams of Ignition consulting

As always I would appreciate a rating on Itunes and subscribe if you want to keep getting weekly updates and interviews. If you want to get more insights on brand strategy and design, subscribe to the newsletter on letstalkbranding.be

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• Eli's studio: a hundred monkeys


• Naming mistakes


• The importance of naming for logo design


• How to protect your name, legally


• How to work with clients on naming


• Eli's book : Don't call it that

If you are interested in winning a free copy of the book, signed by Eli, visit letstalkbranding.be/eli

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Summary

* 📈 David Taylor discusses distinctive brand assets: their importance in branding and the gap between understanding their value and effectively managing them.

* 🌎 Taylor's experience: Over 22 years with The Brand Gym, helping brands from banking to biscuits grow, and running the Brand Gym Academy for training.

* 📊 Research insights: Despite unanimous agreement on the importance of brand assets, only 15% are truly distinctive, revealing an 'implementation gap.'

* 🛠️ Challenges in brand asset management: Subjectivity in decisions, an obsession with novelty, and difficulties in amplifying assets across channels.

* 🚀 Strategies for success: Importance of cross-agency collaboration, brand archaeology, and leveraging underutilized assets like sonic branding and mascots for brand growth.

Important links

* The paper we discussed

* David on LinkedIn

Learn more about brand strategy

Activate your strategic brain and level up your creative business. Find courses on brand strategy, brand workshops, and brand strategy presentations. You can use LTBPODCAST to get a 20% discount.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Some of the topics we discuss:

• A purpose is not a message


• The difference between marketing and branding


• Twentyfirstcenturybrand


• Customer research


• The competitive value of branding in Neil's whitepaper

I would really appreciate it if your rate the show on Itunes. If you are looking for more weekly insights on brand strategy, please subscribe to the newsletter here.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

We talk about:

• storytelling


• branding and marketing


• internal branding


• repeating the same message, over and over again


• listening to your customers


• how to be innovative


• finding your why


• the role of designers


• identity design

You can check out Wim's brand, Balls & Glory, here. If you wish to reach out to Wim, you can find him on LinkedIn

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

> Geoff was a former student of my online course on brand strategy: Activate your strategic brain. After he did the course we started talking and it was inspiring to me how Geoff started transforming his own business Studio Alumni and applying it in his own way.

In this episode we take a deep dive into the challenges and benefits of transforming your business from a graphic design studio to a branding studio where strategy is at the essence of what you do.

It's amazing to hear how Geoff is evolving his process and framework, client per client, project per project.

If you are interested in learning more about brand strategy, you can now get the course at a 30% discount, this discount will end on monday the 4th of March. Check out some of the free lessons and course info here.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode I talk with Leland Maschmeyer, chief creative officer at Chobani and co-founder at Collins. Leland is a widely celebrated designer, recognized as most influential designer by HOW magazine, he has worked with brands such as Chobani, Spotify, Instagram and much more. We talk about Leland's experiences when founding Collins, working in house at Chobani and Leland's vision on Systems thinking.

Topics:

• The story of how Leland met Brian Collins and they co-founded Collins


• The rebrand at Chobani


• The Spotify redesign


• The difference and similarities between strategy, systems thinking and design thinking


• Design thinking


• The future of design


• The book on systems thinking

If you liked this episode, please give me a rating on Itunes or subscribe to the newsletter on letstalkbranding.be

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode, I talk with Adrian Belina, Partner & Executive Creative Director at Jam3, a studio that creates groundbreaking digital experiences. We talk about how to create work that is 'cutting-edge' and how to stay ahead, the recent Fyre festival doc, where he gets inspired, how to create immersive brand experiences and much more.

Here are some of the topics and links:

• Jam3, Adrian's studio


• How Adrian attracts new clients


• How to keep innovating


• The Fyre festival documentary (Netflix)


• How you need to convince clients to not copy others, but create work that others will copy


• The Reformation stores


• Some of the examples Jam3 did and how they impacted a brand.

You can connect with Adrian here on LinkedIn or on Twitter here.

As always, I'd love it if you rate the podcast on Itunes.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode I talk with Allen Adamson, co-founder of marketing agency Metaforce, writer of Shift Ahead and Brand Simple. We talk about how brands can stay relevant in this fast-changing world.

It's a nice conversation and Allen brings some great examples and ideas to the table. We talk about:

• When it's time for a brand to shift


• Brands that did not shift in time


• How we as designers can help clients shift


• The evolution of branding, marketing and advertising


• If you are interested, check out Allen's book: Shift ahead

You can find out more about Allan on his LinkedIn page.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode I talk with Jefferson Perky, founder and creative director at, you guessed it, Perkybros. Perkybros is one of my favorite studios and me and Jeff have a wonderfull conversation about finding inspiration, working with clients, choosing the right typefaces, Perkybros weird fascination with animal mascots and much more.

Find out more about Jeff and his awesome team at Perkybros.

We talk about:

• Presenting work


• Finding the right typeface


• Building a small studio and keeping it small


• Finding inspiration


• How to build cases

I would love it if you give this podcast a rating on Itunes or your favorite podcast app. If you want to stay up to date about the latest and greatest you can subscribe to the Let's talk branding newsletter on letstalkbranding.be

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode, I talk with the amazing Chris Do. We have a meaningful conversation about, well... conversations. I asked Chris how he was able to develop his skills as a conversationalist, how he developed 'the art of conversation'. We talk about 'how to prepare' for conversations, how to get in the right mindset, how to shift conversations and much more. In the end, we go on a bit of tangent and talk about user experience, the future of the futur and razorblades. Enjoy!

You can find Chris Do at the Futur's website, youtube, twitter or practically any other social medium.

Some of the things we talk about:

• the art of conversation


• the expert mindset


• selling strategy


• Blair Enns

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

In this episode, I walk you through some of my key takeaways from season 2. This season was jam-packed with great people; from Marty Neumeier to Steve Wolf, Camille Baldwin and much more. In this lesson, I take you through some of the most valuable lessons learned. At the end I drop in a big spoiler for the first episode of season 3.

I talk about my conversations with Marty Neumeier, Camille Baldwin, Mark Kingsley, Steve Wolf, Alex Antolino, Graham Robertson, Fabian Geyhrhalter, Armin Vit, Mark Pollard, Summer Teal Simpson Hitch and Melinda Livsey.

Have a listen for the full episode and some of my biggest lessons on brand strategy and design.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

“Brands, Put your money where your mouth is.”

In this episode I talk with Camille Baldwin. Camille is a really interesting woman, as director of brand development at Gin Lane, she has created some amazing brands with her team. We talk about launching brands, strategy and much more. You can find the full excerpt below the sponsored message.

We talk about:

How Camille ended up at Gin Lane, an awesome studio

Avoiding cliché’s in strategy and messaging

Working with startups

How to launch a brand

I mention ‘Jessica Simpson Hitch’ in the podcast, I actually meant Summer Teal Simpson Hitch, Apologies Summer! You can find a link to the article I mention here

How the market will evolve and how customers are reading trough the bs

How B2B brands are becoming more and more brand led

How to create a strategy for startups

You can connect with Camille on her Linkedin or website.

I'd appreciate it if you could rate the podcast on itunes. It will help me in reaching other designers.

This episode is supported by HolaBrief

Very few projects end up with exceptional results. HolaBrief makes it easy to ask all the right questions and nail your design brief every time. Built by designers, for designers. Get early access to Holabrief by subscribing now.

Check out Holabrief

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Summary

Here's a summary of the key points from the podcast:

* The Evolution and Challenges in Branding: The podcast features Jacob Cass, the founder of Just Creative, discussing current trends and challenges in the branding industry, including the impact of AI, the rise of accessible design tools like Canva, and the changing landscape of pricing strategies.

* The State of Brand Report: Cass released a comprehensive report titled "The State of Brand," based on interviews with 267 branding professionals worldwide. The report highlights key areas like pricing strategies, client acquisition, AI's future in branding, and professional development in branding.

* AI's Increasing Influence: There's a significant focus on the role of AI in branding, with both excitement and apprehension about its potential to make branding work easier while also posing a threat to traditional methods. Cass shares his own experiences with AI tools like ChatGPT and Adobe Firefly, emphasizing the importance of adapting to these technologies.

* Personal Branding and Online Presence: Cass stresses the importance of having an online presence for brand designers, viewing it as an enabler of creative freedom. He discusses how his online platform serves various purposes, including as a resource hub, a community for creatives, and a marketing tool for his services.

* Future of Branding: Looking towards the future, there's a discussion about the branding industry's direction, focusing on authenticity, personalization, and purpose-driven branding. The conversation also touches on the necessity for branders to evolve with changing technologies and market demands.

Important links

* The report

* Jacob on LinkedIn

Learn brand strategy

Activate your strategic brain and level up your creative business. Find courses on brand strategy, brand workshops, and brand strategy presentations. You can use LTBPODCAST to get a 20% discount.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Strategy is the identification of context.

In this episode I talk with Mark Kingsley. Having directed at companies such as Collins, Landor and Ogilvy he has a lot of experience. He also did a lot of design work for Blue Note, Atlantic and the Guggenheim museum. We talk about the history and future of strategy and design, Mark’s strategic work for Ogilvy and some really fun anecdotes.

You can find the full transcript below the sponsored message on this page.

We talk about:

The repositioning of Ogilvy

Collins, the agency

“Strategy is the identification of context”

How strategy and design are influencing each other

The difference between big agencies and small shops

Mark’s encounter with Massimo Vignelli

How you can design ‘the situation’

Why you shouldn’t present a logo on a tote bag.

The Pepe the frog meme

The target brand

The brand new conference

You can connect with Mark on his Linkedin or website.

I'd appreciate it if you could rate the podcast on itunes. It will help me in reaching other designers.

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Thank you!

This episode is supported by HolaBrief

Very few projects end up with exceptional results. HolaBrief makes it easy to ask all the right questions and nail your design brief every time. Built by designers, for designers. Get early access to Holabrief by subscribing now.

Check out Holabrief

Here’s the full transcript

And a lot of it, you know a lot of it could. Possibly be I mean, I'm just kind of floating this as an idea just came to me that maybe the reason why a lot of strategy kind of sounds the same. It's because people don't really know what strategy is. Hey there first off. I want to take a minute to thank all our brief.

They've been sponsoring this podcast season and there are a bunch of amazing people hold a brief is an online environment that allows you to create better design briefs there set of easy and accessible through. Exercises allows me and the client to get on the same page very quickly. I suggest you go take a look yourself at all a brief.com.

In this episode I talk with markings Lee Mark is a well experienced guy. He has worked for Collins Lander and he has done some amazing work such as the repositioning of Ogilvy design work for Guggenheim blue note and a lot more Mark has some amazing stories to tell about his. Variances in the graphic and strategy world.

We talk about brand strategy logo design and a lot more so buckle up and let's start branding. Hi, my name is Mark Kingsley. I'm a creative director designer strategist educator writer and speaker based in New York City. All right, cool. Could you tell us a bit about your history? Where have you worked?

And what's your experience? I was trained as a graphic designer and I really wanted to become a record cover designer. That's all I wanted to do was just to record covers and when I got out of school, I found myself my first one of my first jobs was in the Cosmetic industry where I was designing packaging for fragrances for Giorgio Armani Ralph, Lauren cash Darrell and Lisa East and Drakkar Noir, and I eventually worked.

Way in just through meeting people and you know just being present and always showing up. I eventually worked my way into doing music packaging. I started off at a doing work. It was basically freelance. So I started off doing work for a small Irish music label called Green Linnets, which has since been bought and sold a couple times by different couple companies and from there I built a portfolio and was able to.

Get some of the largest clients in the music industry. So I did a lot of work for Blue Note. Let it work for Verve some work for Sony a lot of work for Atlantic BMG RCA and it was about 18 years of fun. I absolutely adored it. I just love to I just love doing it and then the MP3 came around the financial crisis, September 11th in New York City and with after all these crises.

Things needed to change I wasn't making as much money and music. In fact, there's one designer Mike Mills who says it music pack designing music packaging is the quickest way to the Poorhouse these apps and he's absolutely absolutely correct. So so I found myself working at a division of old will be called Big which stood for the brand Innovation group and there I was designing everything from a logo for double-click before they were purchased by.

Google to various packaging and in-store exercises for Walmart for a large pitch that we did to retail spaces for Sprint and various other small projects here and there along the law along the way and after that ended up designing and illustrating. Advertising for about a year and a half for publicist hell writing for HP, which was probably a year and a half of like the greatest experience of my life because everything that ever came through my mind's was printed its time.

It was outrageous. I mean, I made a good amount of money, but more more more importantly it was that it was an exercise in just allowing my. Subconscious kind of like work and it was it was quite a revealing experience for me. So after that ended up in San Francisco working at land or as a creative director and the city account and basically I was the global creative lead for all work that land or did in the world for City and Citibank.

And that was an amazing position because it was granted. It was a lot of travel and me showing up in suits and talking to large groups of people about typography, but it was also a great education and brand and branding and what that is and it helped me see how design is merely like an execution of a larger brand.

And probably one of the greatest compliments that I've ever received from anyone was from the global head of branding at city and she wrote a note to my colleague. And she said I'm really happy to see how Mark has become as gone from becoming a designer to a brander. And if you understand what that means, it's just that.

She saw that I had the I then was able to develop the ability to kind of see beyond just shapes and forms and to see how things work with people how things work within contexts and and how things work on a larger business level 2. So after that. Ended up in Paris for a little bits and then back in New York where I had my own branding small boutique studio called malcontents and there I did some lot of projects were Arts organizations and after that ended up a Collins for a couple of years where I was executive strategy director and there I did add some really wonderful experiences their eye.

It was able to basically I worked on the global repositioning for Ogilvy, which was just announced like maybe six months ago. And that was that was kind of incredible that mean to sit at the at the table with the CEO of a large global. Advertising agency and have a conversation about where they needed to go.

So that was like one of those little proud moments of my life. And so I had a couple other projects. There was one in Japan where we were taking a probably one of the largest companies in Japan and helping reposition one of their divisions. And one other project was for equinox the gym which some people in United States know probably better than people in Europe Equinox is a like a high-end health.

And they're owned by a large real estate company called related and they are going into the luxury hotel space and the project was to try and find a way to position logically a health club in luxury hotels and how to find a connect and build that connective tissue. So so those were great projects and then after that I'm back in malcontent for the time being.

All right. That's that's quite a journey you had there and that's the short version the project at for like repositioning Ogilvy. Could you I don't know how much you can tell us about it. But could you like elaborate a bit on that experience? Because I think it's like something so hugely difficult just because of the the whole history behind Ogilvy.

Could you like give some insight into that project? Yeah. Basically, well, let's talk about foundation and then build from the found on the foundation from there. So basically what is strategy right and there are many different definitions. It's like there is no one definition for design which is really kind of suspicious for designers to go through the world and say, you know not be able to tell people what design is it's the same thing through for strategy.

There are different ways of approaching strategy. The definition that I tend to work with and granted it's not a perfect definition. The one I tend to work with is that strategy is both the identification of context and then the proposal for a different and new kind of context. So to identify a context you need various analytical devices and filters and these are all basically metaphors.

What metaphors are you going to use to see the world? And for Ogilvy and basically actually, let me step back for me. I the process that I use I was trained in college and semiotic believe it or not. And this is like towards the beginning of semiotic such as a college level course in United States.

This was the mid 80s and I studied under a man named. Dr. Michiel Nadine who was from Brown University. And so from semiotic sigh worked my way through various conversations and various courses that I would take and to post structuralist Theory structuralism. No ticks and then into a little bit of phenomenology.

So this is a this is a different kind of input than what most people who work as strategists have most people tend to work with the classic Harvard Business Review case study kind of approach where it's a business discussion that happens and I'm interested in the sociolinguistics aspect of. So I don't see things the way that a lot of other strategists do so for Olga V.

I looked at it as how do you sound basically how do you act I mean, it sounds like very simple brand strategy activity. But if with if you have a lens that you see the world through. That will color how you see it. Right? So the fact that I see things through critical theory mean that I look at it slightly differently.

So Ogilvy the we started off with the classic strategy step of you have to diagnose you look to see what's happening you establish what the context is that things operate in which means you go through their old documents you go through some of their employee reports you go through. A General Industry analysis you look around and you know luckily having had a 30 plus year career.

I kind of have some experience and a bit of a point of view about what's happening in the in the industry and ands, everybody's point of view is a little bit different and so I was able to bring that into some sort of diagnosis. Then you have to propose where you're going to go and that really is once again, the creative process that's like being a designer but instead of Designing a shape and form you're designing an ethic and you're designing a mindsets.

So that process there was about eight months. I'm sitting with if sitting with the CEO and the CMO of Ogilvy and having a conversation about what you think. What do we think? You need to be? How do you need to kind of reframe what you are? Right and so one of the things that we had to deal with was David Ogilvy because you're right.

Yeah. It is a very kind of dense history that they have to address. The problem with a Ogilvie is that he was such a well spoken and good writer. That's his these little phrases of his just kind of. All of the communications that come out of that company to the point where they become like these almost mouth like aphorisms, you know, like how and China in the 1970s Chairman Mao have a little red book of his quotes.

Well, this is kind of the same thing that happened at Ogilvy. There is no are actually little books of quotes of David Ogilvy that passed around a Togepi so that personality had to be addressed. And in a way it was this process since I had worked at Ogilvy at a division of theirs was a bit of fratricide.

I mean if the patricide I got I had an opportunity to attempt to kill the father, right and in this case David Ogilvy, so but if you take away all the David Ogilvy isms, you need to replace it with something. How are we going to see the company? What filter are we going to use? So. Ogilvy is a creative company.

That's that's what they sell themselves as but there are many other people within that organization that helps support that creativity, you know from Finance to client services to accounting and you name it. There's there's they have a huge infrastructure that helps. That machine run but the problem is that if you have a creative departments, this is a conversation we had internally at Collins if you have a if you have a creative Department what that does is that gives permission for many people not to be creative because the creatives will take care of it.

And so we're like no no, no, you all have to take charge of your creativity because there are answers that aren't necessarily the logo. I mean the communications of a. And are only a small fraction of the whole overall brand management activity. I mean, there are there strategic aspects to it.

There are positioning there's manufacturer. There's just stripped distribution. There's like how people interact with customers. I mean just so many aspects to the to the to the brand customer journey, I guess it for lack of a better term that you need to have. You need to kind of integrate that notion of creativity and that permission for people to be creative.

So one way that we did it. It's just to identify the fact that yes, graphic designers have craft art directors have craft the craft of typography the craft of photography of motion of sounds but that same level and appreciation of craft can also be applied to. Finance to marketing to HR. So how do you give people permission to think of themselves in that way and to elevate them at a similar level to the creative?

So once you get all the sexy Awards and once you get all the attention that a company like oh like over V, so that was that was like kind of a crucial step for us. And we we said, you know, you are a global company and you have this opportunity and your reach goes beyond your company. Your reach is global and it's outside your company.

It's to your clients. It's two people who used to work for you. It's two people who will soon work for you. Its people its everyone basically, so if you understand that whole kind of Networks. What Brian Eno calls a senior so it's not the genius of one person but two seniors of a scene right the collection of people.

So if you pull from that seniors and pull from that Network, then you're bringing in whole other layers of craft and execute and skill into the work that you do and basically not to feel like you have to own your little place but to understand your role in the larger. Of all things. So that said on a philosophical level that's basically how we approached it.

So in the execution, there's a series of you have to go through yield brand architecture, you know, the classic strategy. Of what are the values of the company? How do you I mean I had saw one night. I sat down and I wrote the values of the company and they pretty much remained after that one night.

I mean they've been a couple changes but I'm very happy to say that those values are very close to what I wrote and how do those values interact with the idea of craft and how do they interact with? the. The expression of the brand of expression of the company. So another thing that we said with A over B, is that the era of advertising the way that Olga be thinks of its in a way that most other advertising companies think of it now granted this is not a new idea, but the end of era of advertising is for all intents and purposes changed.

If not over so the 30-second commercial the beautiful print ad all that stuff. We still have we still need but there is more to it's right. There is there are whole other layers of design. There are other approaches to environments whether it be a digital environment or an actual physical space environment.

There are I mean designed self could be from Graphics to packaging to product to even designing process. How does how does somebody go buy a product and then how does somebody go through a resolution if there's a problem that kind of stuff so looking at it on a craft design and Environmental Way Beyond just Communications which is whatever tizen is so that was that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Yeah, I think it sounds like such a challenging project. How did you because that's always something that really triggers me like when you're doing strategy. It's always part where you're you're kind of like you're doing you're not inventing stuff because you're listening to the client. But how much is your input versus?

What the client is telling you, especially when you're a repositioning it's a lot of like you're almost designing the future of the company and how do you balance those two? Because that's always something that a lot of designers are talking about like they give an example where they say the company says, that's our purpose but it doesn't sound like the right purpose.

How much do you push and pull between those two things? Could you elaborate? Yeah, there's a degree of town. It has two sounds and feel with the degree of authenticity as to have a has to sound like it's coming from the company, but can't you can't everything can't sound like a. As much as much as people like it would like it too, but you're right there is that that dance between between those things and it's one of Personality.

It's one of listening establishing trust and speaking honestly and being will and being willing to go through the design process. Design thinking for lack of a better term on a strategic level which means that you know, you're going to propose things that the Clans going to go. No, that's not right and to that's one thing about being a designers that.

You know, I'm trained to be at peace with ambiguity and not knowing if you know, I don't have to know and that's that's a lot of the fear that I kind of smell around traditional strategist is that they have to know they have to there's a there's a desire to sound right? And you have to let that go and if you're if you're going to go anywhere different because if you are compelled to sound correct, you're good.

That's that's what kind of generates all this kind of jargon that we hear all the time. I mean how many times have you heard some sort of or kind of seen somebody go through a deck where they talk about how they're going to inspire the audience, too. Like words like that how they're going to activate how they're going to let me know this this kind of language that people use is one of fear.

And the fear of not looking like they belong and if you're going to build something different you have to you have to be at peace with that and proposed it and say listen, you know this this maybe even if you just say this may be a crazy idea but this is what this is a thought that I have and then allowing the client to kind of push back and then build it together.

So it's just. And a lot of it, you know a lot of it could possibly be I mean, I'm just kind of floating this as an idea just came to me that maybe the reason why a lot of strategy kind of sounds the same it's because people don't really know what strategy is and feel like they have to step up to some sort of idealized model.

But no one's agreed on that model that model is kind of existed spontaneously. It's like ideology ideology. Don't peep. There's no Committee of ideology that creates ideology. There's no Committee of strategy that sets up what strategy is. I mean, we kind of look to familial resemblance is right.

It kind of feels like strategy it kind of acts like strategy. So therefore it is strategy, but that's that's that's allowing ideology to kind of determine. What something is what the form of something is? Okay. I mean I'm a designer but I love it and I've actually had done projects in the past where I try to design something where I don't design it.

I try to design a situation where the design is done for me and I'll give you an example. I was doing a I've had for a long time for about almost 20 years now. A client called bang on a can bang on a can is a collective of three composers and they had no place to make you know for people to play the play their music when they were younger.

So in the 1980s, they established a thing called the bang on a can Festival. And the name bang on a canvas just a way to kind of Express their outside Ernest to the establishment of classical composition. So over time they have become a very well respected International Group. Okay. Now they also are a democracy there are three of them.

And there are very kind of influential people that work for them that help support them who also have a really good idea about how things should be and actually I don't disagree with any of them. So basically they are burdened by democracy. They'll have like five six seven voices chiming in on something on any kind of design that you do.

So one point they came to me they were moving locations and I needed new stationery business papers, and I said that burden of your democracy. Makes it difficult for me to give you something that everyone's going to like so why don't we create a situation where no one has a choice right? So what I did was I designed letterhead and business papers.

Where I just printed very simply one color and one side all the information that's needed. And on the back side. I went to the printer and I said what printing plates do you have laying around the pulled a few out? We wiped off the logos. We wiped off any kind of identifying texture like patterns and parts of images and I split it up like Robert rauschenberg.

Okay, so the magenta plate from this. Project over here and the cyan plate from that project over there and I put it all together and it became literally a Robert rauschenberg on-site collage and it got and the printers got so excited that that when it came time for them to put the designed to print the business cards, they put it through the form then they took the paper out flip it around 180 degrees and put it through again.

So basically I found a way for a. Poor Arts organization to have a 10 over 1 business card 10 colors over 1. It's insane and it perfectly expressed the spirit of that company. So that's that's what I mean. When I say that I like to design things where I have no control over it and I accept as a designer.

This is the thing that most creative people like date which their eyes whenever they hear me say this. I am perfectly fine with people taking control of brand elements. Within reason Granite, you know, you don't want them to turn it into Pepe the Frog which will get will get back to you in a little bit, but I'm perfectly fine with people taking things and remaking it within within reason for within their own Vision because it's people it's the audience that makes the brand the brand does not issue the.

Back in the day of advertising during Mad Men era when we only in the United States. We only had three networks. You could put one commercial on the three networks and that there would be a continuity and consistency to that message but now with social media and the growth of technological, you know Communications technology.

We now have seven point five billion individual audiences. Everything is tweaked through program programmatic advertising and through algorithms to be specific for each individual person. So it's impossible and you're a fool if you think that you're going to create one consistent brand that exists perfectly for everyone.

So let that happen and try and find a way for people to have that individuality and and for that kind of spontaneity to appear and to exist and try and find a way for it to also be coherent with the values of the brand. That is an amazing challenge. We are at an incredible inflection point and society and which is also like every client that.

Spoken within the last two years is that the same place technology communication Society. Everything is understand undergoing such massive change that grants have to change along with it. And we're making it up as we go along. We're look overall looking for the best way to do it. There is no perfect way and it's exciting.

It's absolutely great. So I mentioned Pepe the Frog for are you familiar with that whole notion notes never heard of it? Okay in the United States, there was a guy who I forget his name. He had a cartoon an online Cartoon. It was basically for kind of Stoner dudes, you know, dudes, you know college dudes like you know, that kind of juvenile humor.

And it was an image of a frog who like walk like a person. So it was basically a human body green skin frog head. And there was one frame in one comic where the frog is urinating on the wall and the Tenney saying hey, man, if it feels good, you know and the alt-right. In the United States on 4chan took that image.

And used it and changed it to become the mascot for the alt rights and for pro Trump supporters during the 2016 election the man who drew Pepe, the Frog was horrified that this thing was appropriated to without his permission and perverted and changed into something. That was absolutely the diametric opposite of what he wanted.

So that is the power of the audience to make a brand. That's a good story. Well, it's also a very chilling cautionary tale. So if you're going to work on a large level both strategically and creatively. you need to kind of allow for that to happen. You need to be able to Envision what would happen if.

And try and do what you can to change to prevent that you know, when I when I speak I often show the graphics of a brand and United States called Target originally was Target at all. Yeah, it's the the red belt logo, right? Yeah, right. I mean it's a very powerful graphic program. They some of the best graphic design of the last couple decades has been done for Target.

It's just amazing. I mean the photography is beautiful. The advertising campaigns and marketing all of it is great. But I live in Queens and which is a borough of New York City. I live in Long Island City. Basically where Amazon is going to be in a couple years. I'm only a 5-minute walk from them and.

When I ride my bike around Queens, there are a couple Queens is a burrow where there are some malls. It's not all very dense urban area. There are some spots where there are malls with sharpened with parking lots. And there's one model on Queens Boulevard that I that I took a picture of and I use this picture oftentimes when I speak I show targets graphic language.

And how great their graphic design is and then I show the Target logo in context in the real world and there is a there's a mall that just like a generic box. It has all these horrible logos or sometimes good logos all kind of jumbled on the exterior of the building with absolutely no concern. As to proportion in between each other or any kind of relationship whatsoever.

It's just noise and one of the biggest things that you see is to Target logo. So, you know, we were very happy as professionals to kind of sit within our little blanket forts and envision these idealized world's. I mean, that's what people pay us to do, but. We also need to think about what how it's going to be used in the world.

We have to think about basically the visual pollution that were creating. It doesn't matter how beautiful a logo is in the wrong context its pollution. So this is you know, this is a thing that I'm beginning to try and consider in my professional work. Like, how can I how can I address this? I don't have an answer.

But at least at least I'm aware of it. I don't have an answer yet. And I'm going to have my answer where my approach to it. But it's it's a problem definitely and I think it's interesting like even Beyond how logos are acting in the real world. It's a lot more clients are asking a lot more about like how they should behave in the real world how they should talk how they should bring support to their customers and it almost feels like as you're doing.

Strategy, you're thinking about this brand in like the sense that like how it will be in the actual world and not just how it will look like or how we'll talk like and that's something that's really interesting for me, but it also brings like a huge responsibility. Absolutely. I mean it's there's a branding conference that happens every year.

It's called brand new and firemen fit. Yes. Yes. Oh who you spoke to? Yes. Yeah. Yeah and every time someone shows their work, they'll show a logo that they designed and damn it like 85% of the time they're going to show that that visual identity system apply to a tote bag. And that's as far as it generally goes to for designers when they think about the application of their work.

I'm more interested. If I'm going to design a design a logo how it would look on the side of that ugly building in Queens, right? That is an exercise to show your clients. Right? I mean that that is that is a dose of what's what right there. Yeah, and I think we've all been there like that situation where you create this beautiful thing and then you walk out in the real world and you see your logo on a place where you absolutely didn't expect it.

Then it's really ugly and then we're frustrated and angry at the client. But actually we should be kind of angry at ourselves as well. I suppose exactly which means that we need to change how we design things. We need to change our notion of professionalism, and we also need to. Change our little borders that we have around each other.

So what I tell I teach at the School of Visual Arts in the Masters and brand program and I have a very strange kind of Workshop. That's that I called logo insignificant and I present it to the students began presenting it to the students in this way that. The Strategic side of things and the creative side of things are not diametric opposites.

They're actually variations on the same impulse to make something to make something with meaning and with use and hopefully with the degree of beauty too. And so if we allow ourselves to have conversations outside of our little area. I think that could be much much more rewarding and richer so yeah, and that's kind of funny because I had this question written down for you and it kind of what you just said kind of makes the question irrelevant because my it was the idea of like how do you balance the strategic person inside of you and the designer, but maybe that's just what you're saying that they should be built the same.

It's the same. I mean, you know, we're in the last 20 years. Designers don't show their work as here's the logo they built a deck to sell it in right that deck is a strategic impulse. You know, they're using strategy and the very basic sense of the definition of the word strategy, which is about how you position forces to to reach an end right there using strategy to present their work.

So, you know, why not expand. If you give yourself permission to do to do to do that to do that to show your logo or your visual identity system, then give yourself permission to go beyond that. It's that's the conversation that I tend to have with my own personal clients as they usually come to me and go, you know, like I'm doing some work for cannabis for cannabis company right now and it was originally we need someone to design Motion Graphics and like cool.

Let's do it. And then as I begin to have a conversation with them, I found myself writing the strategy because they need to do videos. And so I have to. Presenting OK your videos could say this they could be centered around that and I found myself once again kind of falling into the Strategic side of things, but it's because I want my work to have relevance and I want my work to have some sort of difference because like in cannabis everything looks and sounds the same because they're making right now the industry and United States is so young.

They're making a play or they're making a case for the medicinal benefits of it. Which means that you're going to have the same tropes and the same kind of messages that you have in big Pharma, but cannabis is not big Pharma. It needs to be something different. So what does that different thing going to be?

And so that then becomes part of its both a strategic and creative problem at the same time. So, like I said, I mean I've had you know, I have a few Decades of experience. And so that is like the pull that in I like the pole in my own point of view my unique point of view coming out of what I've studied and what I read.

As opposed to reading the Harvard Business Review, which I do every once in awhile, but you know, I also reads, you know, some of the more long-haired weird s**t and so it's. It's all basically my Approach, you know, and I'm making my Approach up every day they are and how do you because that's something that the I imagine you won't always in the position to like do the strategy and the design part because those are huge project.

How do you like Inspire the designers to to bridge that gap between what you're proposing as a strategy and what should be the. Creative direction for that. I don't have the perfect answer for this because all of my experiences have been less than perfect to be. I mean, I'm going to be honest. I mean I haven't I haven't figured that out yet in my own head.

With my own projects where I'm overseeing the Strat the Strategic and creative side of things. It's much more seamless, but what I've experienced on the being at a strategic side of things is that a lot of designers like to have their own little area that they oversee and damn you if you try and make a suggestion.

It's like that classic thing about designers and clients, you know, the client that the there's there all sorts of like Tumblr sites and Twitter feeds about you know, stupid things that clients say and designers and creative people tend to have that same attitude towards strategists and strategists have that same attitude towards designers and creative people.

So, I have found that my best work tends to happen when I have a little bit of friction and disagreements with other my clients or an account person or a strategist and I've come to cherish to respect and to cherish that kind of interaction that came with me growing up a bit admittedly because I too have been that.

Spoiled childlike childish creative person. So a little bit of growing up has helped me and coming to that realization that that conversation no matter how difficult can be helpful. So I need to convey that sense better with the people that I work with when I work in a more strategic side. That's something that I need to do better because.

You know creative people and also this is also kind of a structural thing to Industry the advertising branding complex. agencies. are always are they staff differently than people that have in-house departments? Okay agencies don't really have the the money the throw a lot of bodies at something they can't because.

It's the imperative is to do as much as you can with as few resources as necessary and those resources and agencies are people so you have fewer people and you also have less expensive people who tend to be younger. Which is why you know, there's been a conversation in the last couple months and advertising and United States how it has an H problem.

So we have that youth there's pride in that youth there's pride and accomplishment and if you're in your mid-30s and you have a good maybe 10-15 years of experience and some some achievements and your portfolio. You become prideful. And it's only when you get a little bit older and you have a little bit more kind of road behind you that you start to your ego begins to kind of soften a little bit and you're able to listen, so I've been there and that's part of the.

I think part of the the culture the cultural ization process that I need to go through with the people that I work with and helping them get to that place and helping me. I think I kind of understand where they're coming from. I need to I need to be more open to it. So this is how does one do it?

You just have to grow up some people grow up faster than others. That's great advice you've been around like in huge agencies and I you have you had your own shop. And do you see like an evolution in the landscape of like these? I see a lot of small boutique shops doing a lot more strategy and even designers and then there's this huge agencies and they're all like, Somehow converging I have this feeling I don't know how you see this landscape evolving.

I had an interview about 10 years ago with a very large branding firm and the CEO. It was with the CEO and it was for a position, which thankfully I never got and this guy's a bit of a little bit of a jerk. He had. He said we had met before at the brand new conference. Is it go? Hey, yeah, hi. Nice to see you.

Again. He sits down it with a cocky attitude he goes. So what do you think of the world of branding these days like he's the expert. And I said it's upside down and he had to strange look on his face and like we like shocked and I said it's upside down because large firms are owned by holding companies who put a pressure for p&l profit and loss line on them.

They have to hit Target numbers every. And what that does is that constricts the amount of flexibility that you have and the kind of clients that you're going to say. Yes to kind of project you're going to do and also how you're going to do those projects. So larger firms tend to have basically off the self shelf solutions that they do.

Oh you're coming up with a new brand. Well, obviously, we need to get the c-suite all together in a hotel somewhere on a weekend. We need to run through this process. It's a it's a trademarked process. It's the. Process every time it it just give it a different name and a different trademark. So and that's just like off the shelf that there it is Bill $250,000 for a brand positioning Workshop.

I Brand driver minute. All the different chefs have different names for the same thing. Now smaller firms have the ability to be more nimble. Because they don't have that PL requirement and also they're a little bit hungrier and their overhead tends to be a little lower a lot lower actually so they can the opportunity for Innovation is greater there.

So and also, you know the dirty truth of hiring a large. Agency versus hiring a kind of a smaller more Boutique place is that both firms are going to throw the same number of people that's project. So when I was a landowner working on City, I was constantly maybe a team of five people between strategy writing myself senior designer and a planner right?

That's small team and we were working on a global level. Yes, so so what's the difference? I mean the difference is really the procurement process that differences may be legal representation and a conference room and a receptionist. That's basically it. I mean it's it's all perception. Yeah. I have a network.

I mean I'm one individual but I have a massive Network through the companies that I work for around the world if I have someone something that needs to be done in the asia-pacific area. I've got one or two people who I would. I would bet my would risk my life with that's how much I trust them and I've worked with them for over 10 years.

So it's you know, I have the same networks that the large agencies do because that's where I got my training and everyone kind of works their way through the agencies and they go off the smaller agencies or they go out on her own. And so I have a network of those kinds of people. And on Facebook, I mean, I belong to various alumni networks on Facebook of secret groups of people that used to work at this company or that company its kind you have to where you have to be invited in and you know, I built my I can build my network there too.

It's kind of it's all the same. It's about. I had a head a project but three two and a half years ago. I was asked to write a scope of work and began conversations with a large Global entity on a brand architecture program and I presented that to the company. And the reason why they were talking to me in the first place is that they didn't want to pay a large amount to an agency.

So but the the work demanded basically, you know, you give up your life for this this many months. That's what's going to cost and what the team of Lake two or three other people so. The person we were speaking to goes to the finance head of Finance at the company and had a finance goes. Yes, that's what that costs and had no problem with it.

And then the person said well if that's the case I can go to an agency. So I ended up losing myself in like a small team ended up losing to a large agency who came in with a scope of work, maybe $30,000 more and the the truth of the matter is that they would have hired the same number of people. So it's a really comes down to perception and I mean, I meant I'm invited to interesting conversations, but the super large ones not always, you know as malcontent as myself with like a constantly shifting team base of people that I bring in other other Independence.

It's it's a little more difficult than if I was Sequel and Gale or if I was living Cod or if I was land or. There is a perception thing that you can there's a momentum that you can work with her. Would you say then that it's interesting for like designers are or smaller agencies to to present themselves as being like the big agency or that's like the the wrong way to go in this.

Oh, I think that's absolutely the wrong way. You have to be truthful to what you are. And I mean I have experience. That's what I play that up in a big way, right? I let my beard grow just a little bit. I don't trim it. I don't shave it closely. So you see a little bit of great. You see the gray in my beard so that kind of shows that I've been around a bit, but I'm not uptight so I don't wear a tie and it's it's all acting.

It's play-acting right? It's so you have to develop devise your. Hmm. I also read on your LinkedIn page. You beat out Massimo vignelli for a project that you tell us something about that story. Yeah, so in between the Cosmetic worlds and working at Ogilvy a big I had my own had a small boutique studio with my ex-wife and we specialized in music packaging and arts and culture.

And so like we did 5 years of Central Park summer stage branding and advertising. I mean those are great great great projects, and I also did work in the galleries because I had friends who haven't gone to art school. I had friends who worked in the art world and I had done a few Gallery identities.

So I had that we had that portfolio of stuff that we could work from. So my ex-wife actually grew up with the man who was in charge of the Guggenheim Museums retail Division, and she just happened to be walking down Fifth Avenue ran into him and said, hey, you know had a conversation but what are you doing?

Oh, yeah. Hey, do you want to show stuff great and we basically did it out of that personal connection. So it I mean, I really don't think people should do work on spec but this we were young. We had this was an opportunity and she knew this person. So it was as for friends. Yeah, and so what we do tell so we show the work and they love it.

You know, they that's what they it's it expressed the surface texture of the new building. This was this all happened around the time that they built the addition on back behind the Guggenheim. So they had renovated the whole rotunda the original Frank Lloyd Wright building which needed massive work.

I mean, you know all the Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings always have leaky roofs asked another one of those cases, so. so they. The at that whenever fixing that they built the large addition behind it basically was called a rectangular box made the whole thing look like a toilet bowl. So our bags and packaging for the new shop represented that surface.

I love that new building on the exterior and Massimo had done a very classic Massimo vignelli approach which was definitely within his style but it wasn't appropriate to the museum. It's actually something that I had seen him do for other organizations. Basically, which is a on one large side a detail of a painting on the gusset of the bag would be the artists signature or the name of the.

Organization and at so it's a very kind of classic modernist way of segmenting information and also creating something beautiful. But the problem is that it's it becomes a Trope very quickly and we were more interested in something that was specific to the Guggenheim itself. And that's how I beat him out for on that project.

All right, but that's interesting. I think I do think like with these kinds of Legends like Massimo vignelli, it's hard to have like. Balance between what's your your style or people are contacting you for and what is like appropriate for the project? Well, you know, it's interesting. He well first.

Let me just say that I introduce myself at the opening of the Guggenheim and said hi. I'm the one who did the packaging and luckily I was a student of a good friend of his and so I drop that name Roger Remington and his face lit up and he would he was the most gracious. Person, he still did work for the Guggenheim.

He just didn't do work in the retail division. So like I did all the shopping bags and I design products and special events shopping bags t-shirts all that stuff. So it was much more than than just the graphic design project. It was also a product design project and a sense of Proto branding project at the same time.

So he was he was more than generous and. I'm very kind of welcoming and absolutely a lovely lovely person but what's interesting, you know coming back in your question is. You know people go to these figures often times because they have a point of view not necessarily because of the the form or the style the people that depend on the style of their work.

I think have a shorter career than those that have a point of view or kind of an intellectual approach and he had. A vital kind of intellectual approach to corporate identity branding and visual identity systems. He basically helped build the modern approach to that. So he you know, he deserves all the deposition in the pantheon.

Hmm. Well Mark, I think this was already some really interesting episode and I love to hear you talk a little bit more because you have so much stories to tell but maybe we could just end this episode with like some party or parting words. If you have some kind of advice for for designers and creative people listening wanting to become better designers or more valuable.

What could you say the best piece of advice I ever heard. For Francis Ford Coppola the director who said that all the good things in his life came from saying yes. So now granted that does that does not mean to say yes to heroin or opioids but saying yes to Opportunities, even when they don't seem immediately like they're going to be that rewarding.

So I've said lest I said yes to. And just being open open to conversations open to Chris criticism open to feedback open to failure open to ambiguity say yes to all of it. Cool. Well if people want to reach out and talk to you where could they reach you? Well, my website is I'm in the middle of rebuilding it.

There's a whole long story involving Russian hackers, which I'm not going to bore you with. You got Hillary Clinton or what? It was a little more mundane than that. Basically I had to take my whole digital existence and burn it to the ground and I'm rebuilding it in a new place, but it's an opportunity to rebuild and redesign the website.

So hopefully that'll be up in a couple weeks. But I'm at malcontent.com Mal cont ENT and so you can reach out Market malcontent.com if you want. All right, that was it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did and I'm looking forward to the following episodes. If you like this episode, I would appreciate it.

If you give me a rating on iTunes or give me some feedback through the block or email. I have some exciting news. My online course is almost ready and you can already purchase it and get Early Access visit branding dot courses and check out the free lesson that's branding dot courses. See you there

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Change the pace of your thinking.

In this episode I talk with Graham Robertson, author of the awesome book 'beloved brands' and over 20 years of experience at companies such as Coca-Cola, Johnson and Johnson, General Mills,… He knows his stuff. We talk about the rise of smaller brands, learning about your consumer, finding brand purpose, Mc-donalds, Nike and much more.

We talk about:

His amazing book ‘beloved brands’

The rise of small and mid-size brands or ‘craft' brands as Graham calls them

Nike’s recent campaign

How smaller agencies can play a new role in this world

Strategy is ‘thinking slow’. Execution is thinking fast

Narrowing down your target audience and explaining that to your client

The difference between the ‘selling target’ and the actual target audience

Strategy for startups

See what sticks and stick to what sticks

You can connect with Graham on his Linkedin or website.

I'd appreciate it if you could rate the podcast on itunes. It will help me in reaching other designers.

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This episode is supported by HolaBrief

Very few projects end up with exceptional results. HolaBrief makes it easy to ask all the right questions and nail your design brief every time. Built by designers, for designers. Get early access to Holabrief by subscribing now.

Check out Holabrief

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com

Building skyscrapers.

In this episode I talk with Haraldur Thorleifsson, founder and CEO of Ueno, one of the most inspiring agencies on the map today. We talk about the struggles and joys of building an agency, developing acompany culture and brand and the future of Ueno.

We talk about:

The unique story of Ueno

Becoming a CEO as a designer

Getting the right type of clients

The importance of strategy for Ueno

Developing a brand as an agency

The future of Ueno

Ueno’s unique job site

Growing an agency

The pricing at Ueno (read the article here)

You can connect with Haraldur aka ‘Halli’ on his Twitter Website and Medium.

I'd appreciate it if you could rate the podcast on itunes. It will help me in reaching other designers.

<h2>Get the latest podcast in your inbox.</h2>
<p>Sign up with your email address to receive news and updates. You also get a free Brand workshop template.</p>

















First Name




Last Name













Email Address













<span></span><span>Sign Up</span><span></span>





<p>We respect your privacy.</p>


Thank you!

This episode is supported by HolaBrief

Very few projects end up with exceptional results. HolaBrief makes it easy to ask all the right questions and nail your design brief every time. Built by designers, for designers. Get early access to Holabrief by subscribing now.

Check out Holabrief

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com